AK-12 vs. A-545: weird news about the competition

One of the main topics in the field of rearmament of our army in recent years has become a promising machine gun. New type of rifle weapons must be put into service over the coming years or even months. At present, the Ministry of Defense and specialized organizations are conducting the activities necessary to determine the most appropriate design. Tests and checks are closed, but September 24 in the domestic media, there was some information about their progress.

The Izvestiya newspaper reported that the Ministry of Defense, after conducting preliminary tests of several types of small arms, decided not to allow the AK-12 to be subjected to state tests. An unnamed source from the headquarters of the ground forces spoke about the causes and consequences of such a decision. According to him, during the tests, the machine gun itself and other types of weapons created on its basis do not meet the requirements of the customer and therefore cannot claim to be used with the equipment of a soldier of the “Warrior” system. Instead of the AK-12 assault rifle developed in Izhevsk, Russian soldiers can get weapons of a similar class, created by employees of the Kovrov Plant named after them. Degtyarev.

Izvestia quoted the words of V. Gromov, the chief designer of the Kovrov enterprise. He said that the new types of weapons submitted to the Defense Ministry competition are a further development of the famous AEK-971 submachine gun. Created in the eighties, the base machine is equipped with a so-called. balanced automatics. This means that when fired, the bolt group moves backward, and a special balancer-counterweight of the same mass moves forward. Due to this, it is possible to level the action of several forces acting on the machine gun during firing. The use of balanced automation can significantly improve the accuracy and accuracy of shooting.

Gromov said that during the preliminary tests, the Ministry of Defense checked five samples of small arms from each organization participating in the competition. All participants, including the plant them. Degtyarev, presented two automatic, two machine guns and one sniper rifle. Development Kovrov gunsmiths successfully coped with the tasks and admitted to the state tests.

The reason for the success of weapons based on AEK-971, according to a source in the test committee, were its high characteristics. Kovrov's weapon showed the accuracy and accuracy of firing indicators demanded from him, including when firing in bursts from unstable positions. As for the weapons developed by the Izhmash enterprise, according to a source told Izvestia, it does not meet the army’s requirements for accuracy, accuracy and reliability. Therefore, AK-12 will not participate in state trials.

A source of "Izvestia" in the command of the ground forces explained that the Kalashnikov concern, which the Izhmash plant had recently joined, still has time to correct the deficiencies identified. If within the next month Izhevsk engineers will be able to rid AK-12 of the existing shortcomings, then the machine can be returned to the competition. However, the source doubts this scenario. He explained that the requirements for the promising machine were announced two years ago. Since that time, allegedly, "Izhmash" failed to create weapons that suit the customer. Therefore, it is unlikely that the new Kalashnikov concern will be able to rectify the situation in just one month.

Finally, a source in the command of the ground forces spoke about the future plans of the Ministry of Defense regarding the current competition for the creation of a new machine gun. After the state tests, selected samples will be put into trial operation in the army. To do this, will be purchased hundreds of new machines, machine guns and sniper rifles. In this case, it is not excluded that AK-12, rejected AK-XNUMX, will also go into trial operation.

AK-12

In general, the message "Izvestia" is as follows: Izhevsk designers could not create a promising machine that meets the requirements of the military. Therefore, the new AK-12, about which so much has been said lately, is eliminated from the competition and, most likely, will not be able to replenish the legendary line of weapons that form the basis of the small arms of our army over the past decades.

Just a few hours after the appearance news that AK-12 was prevented from state trials, the Kalashnikov concern published an official press release. According to the concern, AK-12 will participate in state trials. Moreover, during the preliminary tests on the basis of the TsNIITOCHMASH Institute, a sample from Izhevsk, designed for the cartridge 5,45х39 mm, showed its advantages in terms of quality.

According to the official press release of the Kalashnikov concern, the AK-12 machine gun was compared with the Kovrov model of the A-545 model. According to the results of preliminary tests, the overall quality assessment of the AK-12 machine turned out to be higher than that of its competitor, which was created at the Plant. Degtyarev. Due to this, the new development of Izhevsk gunsmiths can take part in the next stage of the competition and has every chance to enter into service with the Russian army.

The press service of the Kalashnikov concern also quoted the words of the general designer of the organization V. Zlobin. As Zlobin said, both samples, AK-12 and A-545, when compared, showed approximately the same indicators of accuracy and accuracy of fire. At the same time, the machine gun created at Izhmash and now being developed by Kalashnikov turned out to be approximately half a kilogram lighter than its competitor. As for the high ratings of Kovrov’s automata, they are due to the fact that the Zapadov Plant. Degtyareva created a weapon based on a single constructive platform.

As a result, AK-12, like A-545, will take part in state trials. However, it is noted that the Kalashnikov concern will finance these works. At the end of the test, a new machine can be recommended for use. The management of the concern is confident that the promising development will be able to pass all the necessary stages of testing and become a new type of armament of our army.

Based on the official press release of the Kalashnikov Concern, we can conclude how the situation around the competition for the development of an automatic machine for promising equipment for the Ratnik soldier looks like. Some nuances of both publications suggest that the new machine AK-12 still managed to pass the preliminary tests, although not without complaints from the customer. This means that in the near future the development company will be able to correct the existing shortcomings, with the result that the following tests will be present modified automaton.

However, the words of some individuals, cited by the publication of Izvestia, make us doubt this version. For example, in the news about the exclusion of AK-12 from the competition, the director of the Moscow branch of the Kalashnikov concern, O. Chikirev, is quoted. He said that Kovrov’s weapons will be subject to state tests at the expense of state funds, and the Kalashnikov concern will pay for financing the verification of Izhevsk’s assault rifles. An unnamed land representative commented on this information as follows. According to him, state tests are tests for state money. Since the state represented by the Ministry of Defense does not want to pay for testing the AK-12, it does not need it. At the same time, nobody forbids the Kalashnikov concern to continue working on the project.

Statements regarding the procedure for financing tests look ambiguous. They can be interpreted in different ways, depending on the desired result. In this regard, the evaluation of the latest news on the course of testing promising automata turns into a rather difficult task. In addition, a characteristic feature of the current situation is the fact that the Ministry of Defense has not yet made any official statements regarding the course of the competition. At the moment, all statements by representatives of the military department are limited to only a few remarks by an unnamed officer from the ground forces command. Naturally, this cannot be considered the official position of the Ministry of Defense.

Although the Kalashnikov concern is an interested party and wants to receive contracts for the supply of small arms, its official press release has the appropriate status and can be recognized as a reliable source of information. The unnamed sources of the Izvestia publication in the armed forces, in turn, cannot be considered as such. Anonymous in all organizations and industries have long earned a very bad reputation, which is why information received from them can be perceived as reliable only with a lot of reservations.

As a result, we again return to the already made conclusion. From the side, the situation around the competition for the development of a new assault rifle for the Russian army looks as if the tested samples, AK-12 and A-545, are generally satisfied with the customer, but should be slightly modified and improved. Therefore, at the moment it will be most reasonable to wait for new messages on the course of the competition, published in the official sources of the Ministry of Defense or participating organizations. Over the coming months or even weeks, the Ministry of Defense may announce the first results of the competition of several machine guns and announce the start of a new test phase. In these messages, a list of companies and structures that have reached the new stage of the competition will be indicated.


On the materials of the sites:
http://izvestia.ru/
http://kalashnikovconcern.com/

Comments

[Canep]

It can’t be, AK - dismissed! It is a pity, the designer has grown old, the machine has grown old. If the Kovrov machine gun will be as reliable as the AK, and the accuracy will be better, then why not take it into service

[an-sar]

"AK" is a brand, a trade mark and for often we overpay up to 30% for a trade mark!

[Jrvin]

What can I pay for there? for the mechanism worked out and perfected over the years? it’s simple and cheap as a kilogram of sweets.

[Apologet.Ru]

it’s simple and cheap as a kilogram of sweets.

And there are different candies ...

[slacker]

The higher the level of competition between manufacturers, the more profitable and better the products for the customer.

[juneart]

I completely agree . Also in commerce there is something like a saying: "In a price war between sellers, ONLY THE BUYER Wins" .... something like that.

[cdrt]

About competition - it's good if it's honest. And in our case, either the Kovrovites won in intrigue, or because Kalashnikov himself is already very old, did not participate. But modern designers, workers in pilot production can no longer do anything. Which, in principle, given the fact that recent years have been happening in Izhevsk, is not surprising even once.
But both are sorry.
One can only hope that the best wins in fair competition.
The truth is hard to believe in this honest fight :-(

[Siberian German]

or maybe they calmed down and rest on their laurels and the Kovrovtsy fellows are working and customizing their device to the new trends of the time

[Enemy]

The new AK is, strictly speaking, not any AK. This is a new machine completely. And about the overpayment for a trademark, it was about him.

[aktanir]

AEK is like a good machine gun, although I never held it in my hands. I just hope that the state. tests will not be biased. And the Kalashnikov concern will not put pressure on the commission in different ways and with different connections to push its AK-12. After all, it is more important to choose for our army the really best machine gun of those that the developers now have.
And if Kalashnikov starts hysteria that if their AK loses in the competition, the company will be left without work, and thousands of workers without bread and earnings, then this is their headache - let them finish their brainchild conscientiously and make it really competitive. And then they promoted AK-12 ahead of time, but there was little sense. (If you believe, of course, what is said in this information).

[Apologet.Ru]

Finally, competition (and not the name, as happened in the weapons history of Russia more than once) will reveal the Best and the Russian Army will actually receive the best machine gun of this, and not the last century, and we will once again be proud of ...

[Apologet.Ru]

Well, a movie on the topic -

After watching it and seeing the reaction to the shooting, especially the bursts, I also really wanted to shoot from this machine, and you?

[Corrint_25]

Yes, when shooting in a burst, hands itch to take the product in hand and knock it off at the firing range!

[Witold]

Burst shooting has never been effective. In most normal armies in the world, 2 rounds are fired single. The queue is only needed when cleaning rooms from a minimum distance.

[cat]

Apparently your designers also worked in vain on the accuracy of Tavor))

[Jake danzels]

This is better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Cg6uxRfeU

[Victor]

Quote: Apologet.Ru

After watching it and seeing the reaction to the shooting, especially the bursts, I also really wanted to shoot from this machine, and you?

After viewing, I had the lasting impression that AEK had almost perfect balance. Particularly impressed with the shooting in long bursts.

[Crrusader40]

you can immediately see the difference in return between ak-74 and aek-971. even the trunk does not throw up much, and the butt just rests on the shoulder.
wanted by itself)

[Russ69]

Quote: aktanir

And if Kalashnikov starts hysteria that if their AK loses in the competition, the company will be left without work, and thousands of workers without bread and earnings, then this is their headache - let them finish their brainchild conscientiously and make it really competitive.

So that this does not happen, you can take into service both automatic machines, but to promote the AK-12 for export, and AEK basically to buy for yourself. It’s just harder to sell weapons that aren’t accepted at home.

[Knizhnik]

I join the wish for the impartiality of the competition. It's a shame to lose of course, but they don’t joke with such things. Russia has the experience of making strong-willed decisions, as in the case of helicopters.

[Enemy]

Yes, we win anyway! :-) I even want the new name to appear in small arms, so that the Kovrovites win.

[Canep]

Quote: aktanir

the enterprise will remain without work, and thousands of workers without bread and earnings

The plant will not remain without work, on the contrary, if they adopt a new machine, then the re-equipment will be enough for everyone, and for a long time.

[Serg 122]

And when were the Kovrov assault rifles armed with the aircraft? And nothing - they waited for their finest hour ...

[Jake danzels]

Ak-74 lost to AEK-971 in the tender (even with the scoop), but only this AK is a BRAND and therefore took the AK instead of the Kovrovites.
By the way, a long line from AEK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5NLukxT46Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=54

[7ydmco]

A similar reason for the adoption of ak 74, where did you find out?

[Ulysses]

Ak-74 is generally a misunderstanding.
You can peck me, but AKM surpasses it in all respects (except for the "funny bullet" and the bikes around it).

[7ydmco]

And what to do with perseverance and return?

[Droid]

AKM loses AK74 in all respects.

[_CAMOBAP_]

And what is a "scoop"?

[Arabist]

Do you use a vacuum cleaner? And everything is the old fashioned scoop and broom.

[densh]

Kalashnikov has already lost to Nikonov in the Abakan competition and survived nothing.

[Old skeptic]

And who is stopping to establish licensed production of AEK in Izhevsk. If they adopt a new model for repression, the capacities of both plants will be useful to the country.

[Pimply]

Quote: Old Skeptic

And who is stopping to establish licensed production of AEK in Izhevsk. If they adopt a new model for repression, the capacities of both plants will be useful to the country.

On Izhmash, and so overproduction was one of the main ills.

[Sergey_89]

as for export, it’s possible, but for its own

[Joker]

If a Kovrovian machine gun is as reliable as AK, and accuracy is better, then why not take it into service

IF you can remove, AEK has already won AK in all parameters for a long time, only because of the high cost and lobbying it was abandoned, I had no doubt that AK will merge with this tender. The design is already outdated, it is necessary either to refine thoroughly, or to take another. Zazhralis in Izhmash, hoping that again in the army will take parashu without competition, this brand! So they flew, nothing terrible for them, the Americans have spattered everything for a long time, they will not wait for the start of sales, so they will not afford to hit hard.

[cdrt]

Balanced automation, the idea is certainly beautiful, but:
1. Cables, gears - not for war, it’s a parade, shooting, yes, but in dirt, dust ... it’s hard to believe that soldiers aren’t rubbing ... more than they used to be with the M16
2. In my opinion, the scheme itself - how to say ... contradicts Occam's razor. Introduced a new entity where all other constructors do without such complication, obtaining comparable accuracy

[Kurkin]

There is no cable. It’s you who beguiled with AN. There is only one gear, to synchronize the work of the balancer and moving parts in the receiver.

[Koshak]

Quote: Kurkin

There is no cable. It’s you who beguiled with AN. There is only one gear, to synchronize the work of the balancer and moving parts in the receiver.

AEK-971 sophisticated balanced automation increases accuracy, but significantly reduces reliability. The connection of the piston and the balancer is carried out through the gear, the balancer itself is attached with a pin, which can simply fly out. And until you insert the pin back, the machine will not shoot. In turn, the AK-12 does not have large structural difficulties and, accordingly, has greater reliability.
The cost of manufacturing an AEK-971 machine is more expensive than the AK-12. In addition, the capacities of the Degterev Kovrov Plant are simply insufficient today to cope with the production volumes of new machine guns in the quantity necessary for rearmament. Izhmash naturally has no such problems.

[GSH-18]

Quote from the article (expert of the Ministry of Defense): "As for the weapons developed by the Izhmash enterprise, as a source told Izvestia, they do not meet the army's requirements for accuracy, accuracy and reliability."
Compared to the A-545, naturally.
"Kalash" is the same "bike" whatever one may say, all the same AK comes out (according to the Kalashnikov concern). Not surprisingly, this should have happened sometime: "Doesn't meet the requirements of the army." Design doesn't solve everything. It is necessary to improve the automation of weapons. You can't stop time.

[edge]

Quote: Canep

It can’t be, AK - dismissed!

Is this time the Kovrov machine gun will come out of the Kalash brand’s shadow, it’s hard to believe.

[Civil]

A set of rumors and not an article :-) but in general, what is there with the Kovrovites?

[xetai9977]

It seems that there is an undercover struggle, lobbying for interests.

[Geisenberg]

Quote: xetai9977

It seems that there is an undercover struggle, lobbying for interests.

And there is. It is not clear who is fighting with whom. If we assume that the struggle between ZID and Izhmash is like bees against honey. I think someone really needs two leading weapons factories to bite with each other ... only it does not have any relation to healthy competition.

[edge]

Quote: xetai9977

It seems that there is an undercover struggle, lobbying for interests.

and it never stopped, let’s recall the Mosin rifle (Nagana was shod, but the comforting farmers gave)

[Tjumenec72]

Quote: Civil

but in general, what is it about the Kovrovites?

The new version of AEK-97X ... externally ennobled

[Tjumenec72]

Here is the picture (not final of course)

[predator.3]

interesting, but how is the TTX AEK-973 caliber 7,62x 39mm?

[savarineko]

Outwardly promising AEK is a bit like mp-5, well, or it just seems so easy to me ....

[Pimply]

They took a similar butt

[Kurkin]

In my opinion, there are also sights. The same wheel in a horizontal plane with a diopter.

[Pimply]

Yes, they are right in that. Very similar.

[Alex 241]

MP-5 KURTS ..........

[Pimply]

Sasha, hi. It was possible to somehow hold in my hands one of the first versions - a solid piece of iron was 8)

[Alex 241]

I want to take such a civilian option to take 28 cal. In Mail is sold.

[Pimply]

Figs knows him. H&K is very guilty of poor manufacturing and neglect of the civilian sector. They have an excellent marketing department, but everything else ...

[Alex 241]

My acquaintance, Saig, bought me a torment with her, she had a big withdrawal, until the barrel was checked with a plumb line, the trunk turned out to be behaved.

[Pimply]

Here is H&K such a European Izhmash.

[vanaheym]

The small-caliber MP5 has nothing to do with the HK except for the design - it is released by German Sport Guns under the name GSG-5.
(By the way, they also produce small-caliber AK)

[Lone gunman]

it’s necessary to be baptized, and the machine is just wonderful AEK, not even an MP-5, it’s better to have an MP-3-better sound))).

[Andrey57]

Dear, watch carefully the movie above Apologet.Ru, especially with regard to firing in bursts - the Kovrov assault rifle does not jerk anywhere, that means accuracy will be good, and with balanced automation the recoil will be felt when the last bullet is fired, and Kalashnikov always drags up when firing bursts.

[duke]

yeah, you're right ... even when shooting in long bursts, AEK is like a glove, it looks like the military decided this time correctly. Hopefully the same with reliability and ease of assembly / disassembly. It would be nice to learn more about the Kovrov machine guns and a sniper rifle. I wonder if the Kovrov rifle will surpass the famous SVD, and their machine gun, in my opinion "Badger", the famous "Pecheneg"?

[bunta]

Otmaz concern - a sweet pill so that it is not bitter and insulting
those who still "believe" in AK-12.

[aszzz888]

And most importantly, that there was a better assault rifle in terms of performance characteristics, and not in political and other reasons, which was put in for purchase in the troops.

[Koshak]

The main thing is reliability. At AK, its reliability more than covers all its disadvantages. And AK gained such popularity in the world, mainly because of reliability.

[svskor80]

Quote: xetai9977

It seems that there is an undercover struggle, lobbying for interests.

Very much like that. But in terms of intelligence, it is clear that the troops should have the best assault rifle in terms of all qualities and preferably a machine gun on the same platform.

[The Indian Joe]

AEK, IMHO, better. Although, probably, it is slightly inferior to AK in reliability. Well, the whole army of the Americans is armed with the M-4 and M-16, which are much more reliable than anything and nothing.

[Pimply]

Quote: Injun Joe

Well, the whole army of the Americans is armed with the M-4 and M-16, which are much more reliable than anything, and nothing.

The reliability of the M-4 and the latest versky M-16 is more than level.

[Serg 122]

How many years after the start of production?

[Botanologist]

Quote: Pimply

The reliability of the M-4 and the latest versky M-16 is more than level.

As for the reliability of the M-4 I agree, although there are very different opinions about this device. Many consider it a complete crap in terms of performance.
But M-16 I doubt it. Maybe something has been finalized, but in general the bulk of the weapons of the M-16 brand is very doubtful in reliability. The accuracy, of course, is normal, I do not argue.

[Pimply]

Quote: Botanologist

As for the reliability of the M-4 I agree, although there are very different opinions about this device. Many consider it a complete crap in terms of performance.

Yuzal several types of this rifle for three years, including the oldest.
The main problem was in stores or in cartridges - they were the ones that caused the failures. It is worth noting that over three years the cases were isolated.
On the M-4 and on the M-16A2E3, a reinforced barrel and a number of other parts, cartridges are used that are different from those used in the first versions. Now this is the m855A2, that is, the third upgrade of this cartridge, adopted in 1980 instead of the M193. In addition, now reinforced stores are being used.

[I think so]

Well, this is the RELIABILITY of the WEAPON when it can work with not very good cartridges. Not a very good cartridge CHARACTERISTIC FOR ANY SERIOUS war. And the sleek chambers with shiny bullets and the exact weight of the offal are just NOT CHARACTERISTIC in production during the war ... So, your reliability arguments are just ridiculous ... excuse me, they look childishly naive ...

[a52333]

And also the question raised by Rogozin: the license for AK-47 from China, Yugoslavia, Poland ended. Will ours raise a legitimate question?

[Assistant]

Was the AK patented? And even if it did, the patent protection period under international treaties is no more than 5 years. Look in the mattress, for example, you also have to pay several times so that the patent protection lasts 5 years.
So, if certain elements and details of the AK-105, AK-107, AN-94 were patented in the era of turbulent Russian capitalism, then the term of their patent protection should have passed.
But the brand is another matter. If there is an internationally registered trade mark, then no one except Izhmash (now the concern) has the right to name their machines "Kalashnikov", "AK" and others like them.

[Pimply]

Quote: Assistant

Was the AK patented? And even if it did, the patent protection period under international treaties is no more than 5 years. Look in the mattress, for example, you also have to pay several times so that the patent protection lasts 5 years.

A little more usually depends on the product.

[Pimply]

A trade patent term is usually 15–25 years maximum. That is if he is. This is for starters. For example, in the hundredth series, patents are only for individual structural elements now.

[Circle]

Reporting for several years.

[eplewke]

AEK is a great machine gun. Venezuela bought a batch from us. They just love the machine. They compare it with nuclear parity ... I read an article by one of the officers there: "We did not have the best weapon yet."
800 deaths per minute and balanced mechanics do their thing. The only "minus" of AEK is its rate of fire. The clip can be shot in 1.5 seconds ...

[Andrey57]

And constantly thrashing with queues is completely useless, with such a balanced mechanism, it will not seem to be single either, since the machine does not drag and does not throw it in any direction.

[labendik]

Adopt the SCS.

[Serg 122]

Again, what prevents the store capacity from changing (remember AK and RPK) ... Immediately do stores with fasteners - so that 2 stores can be fastened together. Insulating tape and adhesive tape are certainly cheaper, but - not that level

[duke]

in my opinion, Venezuela purchased the Kalashnikovs production from us and, as far as I remember, Chavez handed the Kalash soldiers to the soldiers, although maybe they bought a test batch of AEK for their special forces, I just missed this fact ...

[GSH-18]

From the video: "the name (Kalashnikov) won the competition"
I really hope that common sense will prevail. And the army will receive a more advanced and modern system of small arms!

[Rus86]

it will be like the 70s when they took the machine under a small-caliber cartridge. it is known that there were samples with characteristics better than AK74, BUT. purely from an economic point of view, since all AK models are at least partially interchangeable, we chose it. for the same reasons, it is unlikely that they will accept a cartridge of a different caliber. (Somewhere from the subject magazines I read it)

[sergey69]

Is the Izvestiya source their next nonsense? Do not trust this newspaper.

[Colonel]

I agree with you. Izvestia is the source where the license plates of cars are read from the satellite and portraits are taken

[Andrey57]

I don't know how in Izvestia, but it was possible to remove the license plate from our satellites, I personally saw the photo with a senior officer of the Naval Academy in Leningrad, these were "visual aids" for the students of the Academy.

[Colonel]

car number can be removed from our satellites

a little not automatic topic, I will not develop. Just figure out where the satellite flies and how the car number is located.

[me]

Nonsense is not nonsense, but on the radio "to lead fm" said exactly the same thing.

[Jurkovs]

World experience says that not a single company is able to maintain its leadership forever, so artificially delaying this issue is useless. The main thing is not to change the cartridge.

[labendik]

The cartridge is not very successful.

[savarineko]

Quote: labendik

The cartridge is not very successful.

Maybe not very, but in the near future no one else is going to develop ....

[GSH-18]

Quote: savarineko

Maybe not very, but in the near future no one else is going to develop ....

Already going. There was an article on the site.
The bottom line is this: The creation of a new rifle complex (machine gun) must begin with the development of a cartridge for it (which is logical). Until this is done, until then the next "Kalashnikov assault rifles" will be obtained, for which, by the way, the cartridge of 7,62 caliber was adapted at one time.

[edge]

Quote: savarineko

Maybe not very, but in the near future no one else is going to develop ...

Well, Izhmash received a license to organize cartridge production, so we will wait for new developments in this area .....

[andrey903]

AK-12 tuned Kalashnikov, with which he will shoot much better. That's about Galil

[Seaman]

AEK-971 is in all directories, and A-545 what kind of animal? I haven’t found anything sensible about him. AEK is more complicated than AK in both production and maintenance, although there are a number of advantages. In general, the article is somehow muddy, there are already refutations everywhere.

[duke]

A-545, possibly means a 5,45 mm caliber automatic , although you need to ask the Kovrovites

[DuraLexSedLex.]

That's right, "tests have shown", this is the most important phrase, what they wrote from the Kalashnikov concern is an excuse, on the type of what McCain wrote in our press. This is an indicator of COMPETITION, there is no need to grieve about AK, it will still show itself, it is necessary to choose not a brand, but the BEST, and this is the problem of Izhevsk people that their products do not match their brand.
I personally do not care whose machine will be (Kovrovsky, Tula, Klimovsky or Izhevsky), the main thing is OUR and that would be the BEST and RELIABLE.

[DuraLexSedLex.]

PSAK-12 cannot be better than AEK in a particular competition, because AEK, as stated in the article, has "balanced automation", but AK-12 does not, but AK-107 had it, and it was also in the competition.

[edge]

Quote: DuraLexSedLex.

we must choose not the brand, but the BEST, and this is the problem of Izhevsk residents that their products do not reach their brand

Izhevsk’s products are a priori better; they weren’t put into production, just because you need to change the entire machine park for it (as they said in a modest way)

[mirag2]

Well now. I already wrote about this. The breath takes, is it really that AEK will get what it deserves?
Izhmash has long been a place in the railway, which is what he has earned lately. Because: DO YOUR WORK QUALITATIVELY!
And then: tyap-blunder, plague tolerances, and so it will do. But it will not do! Small arms are the main thing.
And then you are-on their own initiative(they thought they would get ahead of everyone, slip what they have and drive it) developed new ak12. Purely they wanted to fool the old machine gun overweight (and the body kit is rubbish, probably they didn’t deal with it tightly) -and the quality is full of feces ....

[Lakkuchu]

Who knows what option?

[DuraLexSedLex.]

Ummm, I'm not sure that this is ours)
Around the gerbil, hen is standing on the barrel ACOG (this is a regular sight of the US Army, it differs in that the factory introduced amendments to the grid ONLY for a certain caliber, namely 5.56 NATO, although there is an export under the cartridge 7.62X39 =), there is no mechanical sight, then there is no front sight or rear sight.

[DuraLexSedLex.]

And yes there are no devices for attaching a grenade launcher, I think you will not argue that this is a necessary requirement) Most likely this is a shrub or small batch of Ak base, from an American studio)))

[Lakkuchu]

Yes, not ours) I am also inclined to the version about the US craftsmen)

[edge]

amers have several firms specializing in design from ..... fucking rifle samples (saw an upturned version of the sks: such an ass)

[Parabelum]

This is an American rework of the Ak-47 "Black Rain Ordnance AK-47"
Here about him, current in English
http://www.hausofguns.com/2013/01/14/black-rain-ordnance-ak-47-prototype-rifle-s

hot-show-2013 /

[Wedmak]

And MO is silent. Apparently, there is plenty to choose from and there is something to modify. Both machines. And this is good in my opinion, there is competition. In the end, it’s true, a situation is possible when both automatic weapons will be adopted, but for different branches of the armed forces. By specificity, so to speak.

[Serg 122]

Yeah, like in a joke! At first they will see who will pay how much, and then they will be judged by justice ...

[morpogr]

There is a competition, it’s good until the end of the test is still far away, and let the best kb win the main thing so that the weapon is excellent.

[mirag2]

AK lost the competition 10 years ago. AEK won. So what? Let's get into the army. And he is not in the army because there are still strong corrupt ties between the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and Izhmash. But the awl will come out. No matter how they squat there in warm places.

[Droid]

AEK also lost 10 years ago.

[Nick_1972]

In my opinion, before choosing an assault rifle, we must decide what kind of army we see in the near future. If professional, then you need one machine, and if the draft, then - completely different. To put it mildly, it is inexpedient to give year-olds an assault rifle hung with a laser, a flashlight, a grenade launcher, an adjustable cheek, a night sight, etc., which they will occasionally scrub scraps of old camouflage.

[JonnyT]

You are talking about a machine gun as a strategic missile. Anyone who graduates from school will be able to successfully operate even a super-duper tricked machine, most importantly an effective teaching method, and not an 3 oath of cartridge

[Dimon-chik-79]

I agree with many - competition is the engine of progress. Especially if it is between its Russian manufacturers the Army should get the best model for armament.
And it would be great if the solution to this issue did not come down to the notorious "kickbacks".

[Aaron Zawi]

I, as a person who is undoubtedly biased, most of all today I like the development of Kalashnikov's ideas in the Galil ACE version.

[Aleks tv]

What's the problem ?

If there is a good, solid competition for small arms with the presence of AK-12, amended AEK and other systems that will reveal the strengths and weaknesses of weapons, what's wrong with that?

The main wish is that it be an HONEST contest in the style of the USSR, when everything mercilessly exploded, collapsed, buried and broke. When personal ambitions and preferences went to the margins and the DEFENSE OF THE COUNTRY was put in the first place.
The main thing is that it was precisely the WEAPON COMPETITION and not the distribution of dough.

I personally have long been interested in balanced automation. There is she on AK.
How effective and justified is it?
How much with her weapons become more moody in terms of use and maintenance?
How difficult is the conscript to deal with?
How complex is this system and expensive in mass production?

Good luck to the contest.

[mirag2]

Exactly! Without different political and administrative components.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Aleks tv

The main wish is that it be an HONEST contest in the style of the USSR, when everything mercilessly exploded, collapsed, buried and broke. When personal ambitions and preferences went to the margins and the DEFENSE OF THE COUNTRY was put in the first place.

Well, do not be so beautiful ...
Comrade Tupolev "moved" his Tu-22 so that the army team had to create "combat training centers" in order to put it "on the wing" ... Subsequently, the Tu-22M appeared, tk. The 22nd was clearly "raw".
The history of the creation of the Tu-160 is also sad - at first Tupolev tried to "foist" on the reworked Tu-144, which was directly indicated to him by the same flyers. Sukhoi's project was considered the most successful, but Pavel Osipovich was already seriously ill. Yes, and Myasishchev, in the garage, had certain groundwork ...
As a result, Tupolev "ripped off" the most successful solutions of competitors, as far as possible.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: stalkerwalker

Well, do not be so beautiful ...
Comrade Tupolev so "moved" his Tu-22,

But where is the beauty then ... ??? Competition, yes, was not frail, Soviet designers fought for their offspring, pushing their ideas in every way. You can’t name the relationship honey. But IDEA was in the first place.

And now everything is decided by the loot. Without it, a finger will not hit a finger. The machine is just a means of earning this dough, its characteristics are of interest to gunsmiths only from this point of view. Capitalism, however ...

This is what I wanted to say. Why confuse "about beauty" and even drag aircraft?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Aleks tv

This is what I wanted to say. Why confuse "about beauty" and even drag aircraft?

Yes, do not be so offended ...

On the issue of competition, where there is both money and a big name, with all that it implies, there is always room for undercover games.

I will add. All of the aforementioned small arms were created in the early 90's. Since then, nothing fundamental has changed in them, neither in Baryshnikov, nor in AEK, nor in AK or AN.
All the years, even the "well-fed" Soviet ones, unification was put at the forefront as the basis for reducing the cost of production technology. And hardly anyone today will refuse this, perhaps, a basic requirement.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: stalkerwalker

Yes, do not be so offended ...

Everything is good.

And I try not to participate in the dispute:
"worked" only with Kalash,
he only shot from Abakan, but AEK did not see in the eyes.


To understand that it is better to nadolat thoughtfully with all the trunks for several months in different conditions, I just hope for an honest competition.
And the new one is really nothing fundamentally invented now.

[Double major]

Frankly, I do not believe that according to the Kalash scheme it is possible to create a machine with a fairly high accuracy ... His machine gun was created, with a scheme for a mass army, of a poorly trained soldier, for a high density of fire. It is under this that he is imprisoned. New requirements - a new scheme of automation, this is logical. But the concern’s lobby will do everything to push competitors - a lot of money is at stake ...

[Navy7981]

1. There has always been an undercover struggle among our designers, the ability to enter high offices has always been of great importance, however, I suppose that foreign companies use communications in their administrations in the same way. Nothing is new under the moon.
2.AEK was in service with the special forces of the Ministry of Justice, it would be interesting to hear the opinion (s) of those who used it.
3. The most important thing in small arms is the shooter who is taught to shoot. There are training techniques for shooting from AK, and they need practice, practice and practice. Those who use Ak seriously will not let them lie; in able hands it provides excellent accuracy.
"stay calm and keep shooting."

[Diesel]

IMHO, I'm even glad that the Kalash "lost", because hanging Israeli butts and strips, and presenting all this as a supernova cool development: somehow non-kosher.

[chunga-changa]

News is not information, it is misinformation.
I am sure then it turns out that everything is even close not as described in the article.

[Ivan_Ivanov]

AK is a world famous brand that brings the country hundreds of millions in its own name. But it is impossible to calculate the benefits that AK brings to the country through its influence, through respect, through the recognition of Russia.

But over time, inevitably, the best, superior models of machines. And here comes the dilemma. On the one hand, it is necessary to adopt new, better models, and on the other hand, it is necessary to preserve the AK brand.

Maybe it is worthwhile to produce new machines (eg AEK, or Abakan) under the brand name AK?

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Ivan_Ivanov

on the other hand, it is necessary to maintain the AK brand.

The Mosin rifle is also a brand, PPSh too, dwell on them?

Quote: Ivan_Ivanov

Maybe it is worthwhile to produce new machines (eg AEK, or Abakan) under the brand name AK?

And how do we explain this to developers and manufacturers? You do better, but will it still be AK? Very honest and smart. Everything has its own time, Izhmash cannot move forward, it will remain, but only in history, it is impossible to live by its former merits and constantly live off the past.

[Ivan_Ivanov]

The Mosin rifle is also a brand, PPSh too, dwell on them?

Why not? This is priceless capital created over the years. Like Coca-Cola, Uzi, Mercedes, BMW, Su ... Imagine if our modern models of submachine guns were sold on the international market under the brand name PPSh? In my opinion, success and sales would be better.

And how do we explain this to developers and manufacturers?

And what is more important - pride, or success? Here the planes are manufactured under the Su brand, and the designer is not indignant that they are not named after them. Or T -... tanks. Why do you think that small arms designers are people with exorbitantly hyped EGOs?

he will remain, but only in history

No. It is necessary to make maximum use of everything that has been created, which has been won over the years and decades.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Ivan_Ivanov

Imagine if our modern models of submachine guns were sold on the international market under the brand name PPSh?

I don’t eat mushrooms.

Quote: Ivan_Ivanov

And what is more important - pride, or success? Here the planes are manufactured under the Su brand, and the designer is not indignant that they are not named after them. Or tanks T -...

And here is pride? There are two enterprises that have developed different machines, why the hell should one of them, which developed the best weapons, fall under the other just because it has a well-known brand?

[Ivan_Ivanov]

... why the hell did one of them, who developed the best weapon, fall under another ...

Because it will benefit the country.

[Aaron Zawi]

Perhaps the Uzi and the brand, but it has already been discontinued. In addition, Uzi was closely associated with IMI. And he also did advertisements for him, which later played a role in the sales of Galil and Tavor.

[Ivan_Ivanov]

The ultrasound is discontinued. But the brand remained.

The EV (car) was also not produced for a long time, but the brand remained and Volkswagen began to produce supercars not under its own brand. He bought the brand EB.

Brand gently cherish, develop and nurture. And the pride of designers is not the highest price to maintain a brand.
You can call, for example, AK-14AEK, or AK-2000Abakan ...

[kontrol]

again loot. all for the loot-new oligarch wants to stick to the state feeding. But it’s a good device and reliable, but not the best. Its reliability is just due to large tolerances. That’s why it is not afraid of the dirt of water and sand. Well and accuracy naturally suffers. But it’s not a sniper rifle, but an assault rifle for everyone. If to make its details accurate - it will wedge, and a complex technique in a direct collision is more likely a drawback, there is a high probability of failure. Yes, and maintenance is more difficult.

[Vasia kruger]

AEK is no longer a new machine, and therefore quite modified. But with the AK-12, not everything is clear. What is different from ak74m? (Well, if you remove the body kit and other decor).

A-545 is not at all clear what, AEK roofing felts are modified, roofing felts are generally something completely new.
Another thing scares. Well, they will not accept the AK-12, there are enough prerequisites for this, in my opinion, both obsolescence and the low quality of Izhevsk products, etc. The bad thing is that most likely without a government order the enterprise can simply fall apart. It was created at the time of the planned economy, and now we have the type of capitalism in full growth. I do not think that without the state, the Kalashnikov group will hold out.

Another nuance, it is completely not clear why the conversation is only about the Ministry of Defense, why AEK and AK-12 are not trying to put it in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It seems to me that there are enough organizations that have weapons and are supplied from completely different sources. MO, Ministry of Internal Affairs, min. Just, etc.

But this is all IMHO of course.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Vasia Kruger

The bad thing is that most likely without a state order, the enterprise can simply fall apart.

Under a subcontract, they will collect the Kovrov machine gun.

[Vasia kruger]

It is not excluded.

[Kurkin]

Yes, it will be so. Izhmash has enough power. At the same time, their fleet of machines will be updated due to this, well, technologies, components and parts, pulled up by the Kovrovites, and then they will implement them on their crafts. And then their (Kalashnikovskaya) balanced automation is apparently not finalized and inferior to Kovrovskaya, otherwise AK 12 would be made balanced. Or were they so short-sighted? Then this is the failure of the leadership of Izhmash!

[densh]

In addition to AK, the concern has other products. There are also foreign orders, so I think they won’t be lost anyway.

[Rex]

Quote: Vasia Kruger

why AEK and AK-12 are not trying to put it in the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Yes, since 91, they have already been "fooled" so much ...
More than one million units are already visible in warehouses.
In special units of 5-10 trunks per brother.
According to media reports, the Ministry of Internal Affairs (at least in small quantities, purchased almost all the samples that were created in 20.

[Shadowcat]

Gentlemen, given how many times Izvestia was caught on ducks, then ... In addition, the news on the off site of the concern is the opposite.

During preliminary tests of automatic machines in the caliber of 5,45x39 mm according to the RRC "Ratnik", which took place at TsNIITOCHMASH in the summer of 2013, samples A-545 of the plant named after Degtyareva and AK-12 development Concern "Kalashnikov". According to the test results, the AK-12 received a total quality score higher than the Kovrov sample, and had every chance of being recommended for state testing.
AK-12 retained the simplicity of operation and production, and also adequately passed the resource test. According to the general designer of the Kalashnikov Concern Vladimir Zlobin, both submachine guns showed approximately the same results in accuracy of fire, while the AK-12 was more than a pound lighter than its competitor. Preference was given to the Kovrov developments only in connection with the fact that the machine guns of various calibers plant them. Degtyareva were created on the same constructive platform.
AK-12 will also take part in state tests, the Kalashnikov Concern will be the source of their financing. According to the general director of the concern Konstantin Busygin, there is confidence that the AK-12 will withstand these tests and will be recommended for arming the Russian army.

http://www.kalashnikovconcern.com/press/news/1086/#text
So set aside the panic! as the French say.

[bunta]

Quote: ShadowCat

Preference was given to the Kovrov developments only in connection with the fact that the machine guns of various calibers plant them. Degtyareva were created on the same constructive platform.

And then AK-12 was not declared as a universal platform for all calibers and schemes from pistols to easel machine guns?

The show goes on?

[mirag2]

This is not panic, but grief.

[USNik]

AEK had to be adopted as early as 90 years. It is much more accurate when shooting in both short and long bursts, in terms of reliability it is almost inferior to the ak-74m (hello to super accurate Abakan), the guys who shot from AEK at the firing range clearly say that it is better. But the administrative resources and connections of Izhevsk residents have repeatedly drowned twin cities from Kovrov and this is bad, there is no fair competition (PS: I hope that if AEK wins the competition, it will be adopted already with Picatinny rail)

[Sunjar]

Everything is somehow foggy with these anonymous sources and half-smacked press releases. On the one hand, AEK is a very good machine, but how reliable is it in real combat? In addition, apparently there are more details that require care, and therefore the cost is higher. Accuracy at AEK is really better, but AK-12 is also nothing now, but when the question arises about reliability, I have some doubts about AEK.
In any case, the special forces will be supplied by AK-12. You can still send both machines to Syria. Let Basharov’s troops test him there, and life will put everything in its place.

[bunta]

Quote: Sunjar

In any case, the special forces will be delivered by AK-12

Will not.

[fennekRUS]

Let's arm the army with crowbars? One detail - super reliable and budget. Or will we get the mosinks from the warehouse? AK-also requires care, and it also wedges, puts "chimneys" and "spits" when it overheats, if it is not properly looked after.

[Rex]

Quote: Sunjar

On the one hand, AEK is a very good machine, but how reliable is it in real combat?

At least he was tested in Chechnya.
After which they went positive reviews like:
1 no complaints about reliability
2 in one turn the entire store with 70 m to the target 50x40
The revealed minus is long and time-consuming to clean compared to a conventional AK (comparable to AN-94)

[Sergey Medvedev]

I am glad that the competition is between our gunsmiths. No Italians, French, etc. I would like not to kill 17 million Kalash lying in warehouses. Enough to destroy the weapon, it must be produced!

[user]

Only military operation can show which machine is better. Moreover, the exploitation of soldiers by conscripts.

[They <b>accompany you</b>]

I want to add my 5 kopecks about reliability

In August 1981, Soviet arms designers in the framework of development work on the topic "Creating an assault rifle that is 1,5 times more efficient than an AK-74 assault rifle", better known under the Abakan code

But the story of the AEK-971 machine did not end there. In the late nineties, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation again demanded weapons with balanced automation on which the Kovrov gunsmiths worked.
The AEK-971 machine was again upgraded in accordance with the new requirements of the Moscow Region

I’m thinking for 30 years it’s been tested to the floor of death already ...

[Algor73]

According to the party of each in the troops, in a month to exchange and let the best win.

[rlanry]

Not only is Izvestia, not only is the source anonymous, but also the author of that very article, D. Telmanov, who made sketches about the army's purchases of badminton rackets, about the dissolution of the GRU, and many others. How in general can you build a discussion based on information from such a garbage source?

[bunta]

I would not be surprised if in the near future we learn about the resignation of Zlobin.

[iConst]

Quote: Algor73

According to the party of each in the troops, in a month to exchange and let the best win.

Such an approach is not permissible in principle. Question: who will test: motorized rifles, landing, special forces or tank crews (they also need it!)?

Creating a universal weapon is impossible. The tasks are different.

And Kalash has long been "baked". It was created as a simple, reliable and cheap weapon for a poorly trained (yes!) Army. For the Red Army, which it remains to this day. He fulfilled his task.

The economic moment is crucial. It makes no sense to arm the army with expensive and high-quality weapons, the potential of which will not be used.

One of the main problems of Kalashnikov is the cover of the receiver. She just sits on the latch and hangs out as she pleases. Now this place is used in advanced models of small arms for mounting sights and other adaptations. Look - Piccatini bars are usually installed there. And everything should be monolithic. Adjust the collimator after a simple cleaning - agree, a little inefficient :).

[viktorR]

Actually, it’s great that the calimator is on a special bar that is mounted on a dovetail, and there are no problems with the lid.

[Pimply]

Dovetail is still an attempt to overcome certain design flaws.

[7ydmco]

Or design feature and nothing more
And what are the design flaws?

[Assistant]

One of the main problems of Kalashnikov is the cover of the receiver.

And why it was impossible to place the Piccatini built-in bar behind a mechanical sight, on the upper part of the forearm? Actually, the top of the forend and make the bar so that the mechanical sight does not interfere. Yes, the bar is short. Yes, far from the eye, you can’t put an optical sight, only a collimator one. Yes, with the sight set, the forearm cannot be completely grasped. But you can put a collimator!

[iConst]

Wrong: Picatinny rail

[_KM_]

It seems that everyone on the AN-94 already spat. :(

[Admiral 013]

Yes, like Vova and special forces still use it.

[luiswoo]

And the saddest thing is that it is simpler and more reliable than AEK in design (AEK, only a cuckoo is not enough - a pendulum and a cog) Although it is immediately clear that the culture of its production and use should be at the level.

[vladsolo56]

Here I have a silly civic argument about automatic small arms. In my opinion, in principle, one bullet is enough to incapacitate a soldier. Now, my reasoning, when shooting from a distance, a burst of 3-4 bullets, with a spread of 25-30 cm, at least one hits the target. If the spread is 5-10 cm, then if the scope is shot down, or if the soldier just couldn’t precisely aim in battle, the entire line will fly away. I agree when shooting single from a very good stable position, a small spread is better, but in battle, and especially in a dynamic one, let go in a 10cm circle, especially since if it’s past, what's the point? Although, of course, I am not a military man and maybe I do not think correctly.

[viktorR]

There is something in this))) Only this spread of one hundred and two hundred meters will be significantly different, that is, the bursts can be fired further, and for close targets you can increase the spread yourself, and even in the direction you want!

[Postovoi]

After reading the article and the comments, in addition to (even earlier) reviewing all possible real videos about AEK, there is no doubt. If this time they don’t accept it, it will be another betrayal of interests. And personally, I really hope that justice will prevail this time.
The army is moving more and more to a professional basis, which means that weapons must be appropriate. AEK - this is not the word an excellent machine, search the net (even here there will be enough uploaded videos), and see for yourself the facts, conclusions and results on the face.

[1961NNN]

AEK-971, won the tests in the AK-74, but Kalashnikov was behind it !!! He lobbied and the AK-74 was accepted!

[Droid]

AEK won nothing. Especially with the AK74.

[Admiral 013]

In general, the question of rearmament of the army was long ago raised in the 90s. Kalash already started to limp at that time, and in return both AEK and Abakan (incidentally being developed at the same time as ak) were offered, and both samples exceeded ak in some respects. But everyone remembers the main weakness of our M.O. MONEY and forgot about rearmament. In my opinion, all samples should be purchased and improved (one will go to the army for the other in special forces, etc.), but again the main problem is the same with the military uniform, MONEY (laundering, unwillingness to spend, etc., etc.). One gets the feeling that we do not have the Ministry of Defense, but some kind of military supermarket and real estate department all rolled into one!

[_KM_]

Quote: Admiral 013

Yes, like Vova and special forces still use it.

I do not know. In bulk order, explosives are definitely not used.

[Agent 008]

The best expert is our SOLDIER ... Give him both submachine guns and let him shoot them all day, and then tell him which one is better! And the rest of the "experts", who may have never even fired a weapon, just defend someone's interests, the money is huge! That's the whole story ...

[Kurkin]

Here is a report from RT from Izhevsk on the day of the gunsmith Putin was shown the "Ratnik" kits for the fighting compartment. You can clearly hear how the demonstrator says: "automatic machine with balanced automatics." Therefore, it is not AK 12. That is, it was AEK that was chosen to demonstrate the ready-made "Ratnik" to the president in the premises of Izhmash, and this already says something.
http://youtu.be/sP_cYTeffVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP_cYTeffVc&feature=player_embedded#t=0

[saruman]

Yes exactly. And this is not an AK-107. This is the machine that is higher in the picture at Tjumenec72.

[Kurkin]

Yes of course.

[Zhenya]

Now the question is, AEK, if accepted, will remain the same as 15 years ago? In fact, they do not represent anything new, but they offer goods that are already 35 years old.

[Kurkin]

Look at the video on my link and there are photos in the comments. It can be seen that this is not the same AEK that was in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s. It can be seen that the sample was not buried, but worked and constantly modernized.

[labendik]

You can't make a foreign car out of Zhiguli by putting Mercedes bumpers, Toyota wheel caps and "super avto" stickers on it.

[phantom359]

Quote: labendik

You can't make a foreign car out of Zhiguli by putting Mercedes bumpers, Toyota wheel caps and "super avto" stickers on it.

You, I see, often used AK and its competitors, making such conclusions. In games.

[Pimply]

To begin with, this is a report from Izvestia. Izvestia is famous for its crappy materials, when someone leaks convenient information through them.

Secondly, both the Aek and the Ak-12 are still lame in that they have not actually moved beyond the weapons standards of the late 20th century. And now it's the 21st century. The ergonomics are not perfect; there is no way to quickly adapt the machine gun to a left-handed person.

Everything here is geared up for burst fire. And anyone who has seriously practiced shooting knows that bursts are the last thing in it. A similar rate of fire can be achieved with single shots, and the accuracy will be much higher. As well as control.

Well, and to top it off - the new appearance of the Ak-12.

Of the cons that catch your eye, the neck for the magazine has not changed, the ergonomics with the bolt are still the same. Well, and other little things.

[silver_roman]

It seems to me that if they just want to change the AK-74 to new ones, then they want the magazines to be unified. The savings will be serious. It's like an assumption.

[Cat]

Quote: Pimply

Secondly, both the Aek and the Ak-12 are still lame in that they have not actually moved beyond the weapons standards of the late 20th century. And now it's the 21st century. The ergonomics are not perfect; there is no way to quickly adapt the machine gun to a left-handed person.

On this site, it has been said a thousand, or even more times, that “weapon standards of the 20th century” will be relevant until the advent of fundamentally new weapons (railguns, blasters, or whatever else happens in science fiction movies). But even if this happens, it won’t be soon... but for now it’s still the same cartridge, the same gunpowder, the same rifled barrel, the same gas-operated automatics. What new did they come up with in 21? Nothing. By and large, all this ergonomics, bells and whistles, etc. are nothing more than show-off for visitors and profit for gunsmiths. “The problem of left-handed people” - IMHO, it’s a complete mess. Because if he is left-handed, this does not mean that he has only one left hand, he also has a right hand, and it is quite working. As for “greater convenience,” right-handed people, for example, according to etiquette, hold a spoon in their right hand and a fork in their left, and that’s all. No one seems to miss the mark =))) And according to statistics, left-handed people make up 10% of the total population - how many are there in the army, and is it worth rearmament because of this? So from there.

Quote: Pimply

Everything here is geared up for burst fire. And anyone who has seriously practiced shooting knows that bursts are the last thing in it. A similar rate of fire can be achieved with single shots, and the accuracy will be much higher. As well as control.

At one time, when Kalashnikov was not a super-authority but just “one of”, there was a question about rearmament of the SA - either with the SKS, or with the AK-47. The result is known, and one of the main arguments in favor of the AK was the fact that an averagely trained fighter, when shooting in short bursts, shows much better results than when shooting in single bursts. Especially in the heat of battle, and not lying quietly on the shooting range. Or, in your opinion, were those who went through the war and experienced all these nuances on their own skin so stupid that they could not understand the advantages of single-shot shooting? Hardly.

[Crang]

An AK of any model, just like the SKS, can fire single shots. So the SKS has no advantage over the AK. Is that the SKS is a little more powerful and that’s all.

[Cat]

Quote: Krang

An AK of any model, just like the SKS, can fire single shots. So the SKS has no advantage over the AK. Is that the SKS is a little more powerful and that’s all.

according to the point of view that took place at that time, the advantage of SCS is that it cannot fire bursts. And there is some logic in this - one cartridge or three, multiplied by a million-strong army, the time of fighting, the necessary mob reserves in peacetime, reproduction in wartime... Build three cartridge factories instead of one - how do you like the mathematics? But there are also logistics - three locomotives instead of one, three cars, etc. and so on. This is such bullshit =)

[Crang]

Quote: Cat

And there is some logic in this - one cartridge or three, multiplied by a million-strong army, the time of fighting, the necessary mob reserves in peacetime, reproduction in wartime... Build three cartridge factories instead of one - how do you like the mathematics?

Great math. This is precisely the kind of mathematics that the Tsarist Army and the Soviet Army adhered to in the first years of its existence. As a result, the 30mm rifle model 7,62/1891 remained the only individual combat weapon for the infantryman until the end of the 30s. with manual reloading and a 5-round clip. I don’t think there’s any need to explain what came out of this. But there was no need to build many factories (just a little more morgues).

[Pimply]

Quote: Cat

At one time, when Kalashnikov was not a super-authority but just “one of”, there was a question about rearmament of the SA - either with the SKS, or with the AK-47. The result is known, and one of the main arguments in favor of the AK was the fact that an averagely trained fighter, when shooting in short bursts, shows much better results than when shooting in single bursts. Especially in the heat of battle, and not lying quietly on the shooting range. Or, in your opinion, were those who went through the war and experienced all these nuances on their own skin so stupid that they could not understand the advantages of single-shot shooting? Hardly

Will you use concepts from 70 years ago? Then the task was to massively arm a poorly trained multi-million army. So that several million people can compensate for the shortcomings of training with certain characteristics of weapons. Times have changed a lot since then. Very much.

In addition, automatic rifles had a number of other shortcomings - small magazines, size, excess caliber - which were compensated for in assault rifles.

You see the ringing, but you don't understand where it is.

Quote: Cat

By and large, all this ergonomics, bells and whistles, etc. are nothing more than show-off for visitors and profit for gunsmiths.

As for the rest - if you don’t understand the need for low power optics, collimators, normal weapon ergonomics, folding stocks, then I doubt that you had the opportunity to use all this in a combat situation.

Quote: Cat

And according to statistics, left-handed people make up 10% of the total population - how many are there in the army, and is it worth rearmament because of this? So from there.

Every 8th, according to statistics. Is this not enough for you? For most gunsmiths, no. Therefore, a system for quickly converting weapons to suit left-handers is now being actively implemented in all new systems.

Well, if you don’t understand why modularity is needed, then that’s a real problem.

[Cat]

Quote: Pimply

Will you use concepts from 70 years ago? Then the task was to massively arm a poorly trained multi-million army. So that several million people can compensate for the shortcomings of training with certain characteristics of weapons. Times have changed a lot since then. Very much.

In addition, automatic rifles had a number of other shortcomings - small magazines, size, excess caliber - which were compensated for in assault rifles.

You see the ringing, but you don't understand where it is.

I haven’t heard that anywhere the main shooting mode was single - short bursts everywhere and everywhere, and nothing else. Or, in your opinion, are absolutely all the specialists in absolutely all the armies of the world so stupid that they do not see the advantages of single shooting? It’s unlikely, most likely you’re the one being stupid. Judging by your posts, you have extensive experience in using weapons in general and in combat conditions in particular - so did you really shoot single-shot, huh? In principle, sitting on the defensive in a deep trench, it may roll... but modern combat is movement, not only in the offensive but also in defense (the more often you change your position and the less you stick out above the parapet, the longer you will live). But what is it like - aiming while running, very convenient? When is the chance to hit greater - with one cartridge or three? So from there. And this is true both for an untrained conscript and for a seasoned special forces soldier.

Quote: Pimply

If you don’t understand the need for low power optics, collimators, normal weapon ergonomics, folding stocks, then I doubt that you had the opportunity to use all this in a combat situation.

What prevents you from installing optics, collimator, etc. for the same AK-12? Except the notorious “weapon standards” of the 21st century =))) Well, I already said about ergonomics: people are different, some have longer arms, some have wider shoulders... you can’t please everyone. And sacrificing the reliability, durability or manufacturability of weapons for the sake of some conditional convenience is possible only within certain limited limits. And do not put this convenience as one of the defining points of technical specifications.

Quote: Pimply

Every 8th, according to statistics. Is this not enough for you? For most gunsmiths, no. Therefore, a system for quickly converting weapons to suit left-handers is now being actively implemented in all new systems.

I have already given an example when right-handed quite successfully used left hand to perform an operation that is easier and more natural to do with the right. And they don’t suffer at all from this. Why are left-handed people worse?
As for gunsmiths... for most, the most important parameter of a weapon is what? That's right - the rate of return. And the more sophisticated the trinket, the more expensive it can be sold. That's why they are implementing it.

[Pimply]

Quote: Cat

So, did you really shoot single shots, huh?

Precisely single ones. In the Russian interpretation, this is mainly called runaway singles.

http://live-imho.livejournal.com/423222.html
Here is a very useful list for hotheads.

“The whole world is moving along the path of improving shooting skills and the professional growth of its soldiers. And this road leads in the opposite direction from those who shoot in bursts. ALL special units in the world TODAY work ONLY in SINGLE mode. The TsSN has been firing only in single mode for several years now ". The result is known to you. In fairness, I note that there is still a tactical niche for firing in automatic mode. But it is extremely, well, simply very small. There are literally several cases of using burst fire over the past few years. And they did not require employees to high level of shooting skill.
“They always shoot at us in bursts” - thank God that’s the case. It’s good that “darlings” have not yet appeared that can extract maximum efficiency from the piece of metal that is in their hands. And everything is clear in any of the TsSN operations: the runaway single is us, the queues are them."

“The new shooting course of the American army and the Israeli Defense Forces involves firing mainly in a single mode. The basic exercise is hitting 26 targets with 30 shots at distances from 10 to 150 m. The transition of conventional military units and formations to a single firing mode is what it is today the same natural phenomenon as a tendency to reduce the quantitative composition of all armies of the world, while simultaneously qualitatively improving their professional characteristics."

http://smith.gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1295212181.php

According to Tsakhal, I will note that this is exactly so. It is specially driven in - single fire. And Tsahal is one of the most howling armies.

There are two polar opinions. But the fact remains that the niche for automatic fire is small and shrinking, while the niche for single-fire fire is expanding and growing.

And on the run, if you attack, the chance of hitting with a burst is significantly lower than getting hit with a single run. You will experience this for yourself if you undergo training and do at least one normal attack exercise.

As an example, I will give you a clash that happened in our company - three against three. The distance is 20 meters. On that side there is automatic fire, on ours - rapid single fire. The fire is open at the same time. On our side there were zero dead, on that side there were three corpses with a dozen bullets in each. Mash.

So the chance of hitting is higher with one cartridge fired with one well-aimed shot than with an uncontrolled burst.

Quote: Cat

What prevents you from installing optics, collimator, etc. for the same AK-12? Except the notorious “weapon standards” of the 21st century =))) Well, I already said about ergonomics: people are different, some have longer arms, some have wider shoulders... you can’t please everyone. And sacrificing the reliability, durability or manufacturability of weapons for the sake of some conditional convenience is possible only within certain limited limits. And don’t make this convenience one of the defining points of technical specifications

Have you ever dealt with modern weapons?

Quote: Cat

I have already given an example where right-handed people quite successfully use their left hand to perform an operation that is easier and more natural to do with their right hand.

“If you want to live, you won’t get so excited.” (With)

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

“The whole world is moving along the path of improving shooting skills and the professional growth of its soldiers. And this road leads in the opposite direction from those who shoot in bursts. ALL special units in the world TODAY work ONLY in SINGLE mode.

Cheap excuse! It’s just that your designers neglected the very possibility of conducting full automatic fire (otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered with the 3-5 shot cutoffs). That’s why they are developing the “single-aimed fire paradigm.” But the time for an aimed single shot will always be longer than the time for an unaimed short burst. Moreover, if the hit accuracy of two duelists is the same, the shooter with a burst has a higher probability of survival. It's not me saying this, it's mathematics. And here's the problem. The accuracy of such a burst must fit into the accuracy of a single shot. But this is a problem for implementation. Your designers said - “it doesn’t work out, we’ll pursue the paradigm of a single sighting.” Ours said “it’s not evening yet” and issued a SA. The SA not only has an advantage in the accuracy of auto-fire, but also, most importantly, in the time it takes to return to the aiming line after the first single shot. So even in single aimed shooting, the AEK or AK-107 outperforms the M-16(4) and others.
So we not only have Sputnik, Gagarin, AK-47, but also AEK (AK-107). And you are an ass again. :)

[Pimply]

Quote: bunta

So we not only have Sputnik, Gagarin, AK-47, but also AEK (AK-107). And you are an ass again. :)

Of course, nothing comes of it. A brilliant solution was found in the USSR and implemented in Russia. It’s interesting why, in the 40-odd years since the “solution” was found (and AEK was at the competition back in the 70s), these wonderful developments have not been used anywhere. Can you tell me if you are our hot one?

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

. Can you tell me if you are our hot one?

Let's not get personal. Otherwise your (mine about you) reputation will suffer.

Quote: Pimply

. It’s interesting why, in the 40-odd years since the “solution” was found (and AEK was at the competition back in the 70s), these wonderful developments have not been used anywhere.

Reliability of gears and racks, their weight. Elementary. I doubt that the Kovrovites have solved this problem now.

[Pimply]

Quote: bunta

Reliability of gears and racks, their weight. Elementary. I doubt that the Kovrovites have solved this problem now.

That's what we're talking about. As well as excess weight, complication of the scheme, etc.

[Cat]

Quote: Pimply

http://live-imho.livejournal.com/423222.html

Quote: Pimply

http://smith.gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1295212181.php

And what? The material in the first link can easily be classified as cynical army humor. Where it is quite possible to add an indisputable truth like the one that the best anti-sniper system is a 125-mm tank gun =) But what does all this have to do with the topic of conversation?
According to the second link - as you correctly noted, there are two completely different opinions. Each is fair in its own way, but: we are not talking about some conventional prodigy and super-elite special forces - we are talking about mass-produced weapons designed specifically for a moderately trained fighter. Because RA is not the Tsakhal, but the territory of Russia - it will be a little larger than Israel, in which case you won’t get away with tens of thousands of pros, a mass conscription with all that it entails will be required. And this is what we must proceed from, and not compare ourselves to the special case of a private army fighting partisans in a private theater of war.

Quote: Pimply

And on the run, if you attack, the chance of hitting with a burst is significantly lower than getting hit with a single run. You will experience this for yourself if you undergo training and do at least one normal attack exercise.

Let's not confuse a long burst of barrel melting with a short burst of 2-3 rounds. Aiming accurately while running is an activity for optimists, and when shooting offhand with a short burst, the chance of hitting is still higher than with a single burst. Moreover, in this mode the barrel simply will not have time to rise “somewhere towards the sky.”

Quote: Pimply

As an example, I will give you a clash that happened in our company - three against three. The distance is 20 meters. On that side there is automatic fire, on ours - rapid single fire. The fire is open at the same time. On our side there were zero dead, on that side there were three corpses with a dozen bullets in each. Mash.

I wonder who fought and with whom? Along the way, your opponents are with planes, since they managed to never hit your soldiers from 20 meters away. Well, you most likely fought with immortal zombies - otherwise why did you need to put half a magazine into each enemy? Not in bursts, but individually?

Quote: Pimply

Have you ever dealt with modern weapons?

What is meant by the term "modern weapons"? I haven’t held Tavor in my hands or even seen it in my eyes, and I can’t imagine where in Ukraine you can even see it. Kalash and M-ki with a body kit and bells and whistles are just that with a body kit and bells and whistles, and nothing more. What else is modern? Which is not a one-off experimental thing, but serial and adopted by a more or less sane army?

Quote: Pimply

“If you want to live, you won’t get so excited.” (With)

Lefties, it turns out, don’t want to live =))))

[phantom359]

Quote: Pimply

Quote: Cat

At one time, when Kalashnikov was not a super-authority but just “one of”, there was a question about rearmament of the SA - either with the SKS, or with the AK-47. The result is known, and one of the main arguments in favor of the AK was the fact that an averagely trained fighter, when shooting in short bursts, shows much better results than when shooting in single bursts. Especially in the heat of battle, and not lying quietly on the shooting range. Or, in your opinion, were those who went through the war and experienced all these nuances on their own skin so stupid that they could not understand the advantages of single-shot shooting? Hardly

Will you use concepts from 70 years ago? Then the task was to massively arm a poorly trained multi-million army. So that several million people can compensate for the shortcomings of training with certain characteristics of weapons. Times have changed a lot since then. Very much.

In addition, automatic rifles had a number of other shortcomings - small magazines, size, excess caliber - which were compensated for in assault rifles.

You see the ringing, but you don't understand where it is.

Quote: Cat

By and large, all this ergonomics, bells and whistles, etc. are nothing more than show-off for visitors and profit for gunsmiths.

As for the rest - if you don’t understand the need for low power optics, collimators, normal weapon ergonomics, folding stocks, then I doubt that you had the opportunity to use all this in a combat situation.

Quote: Cat

And according to statistics, left-handed people make up 10% of the total population - how many are there in the army, and is it worth rearmament because of this? So from there.

Every 8th, according to statistics. Is this not enough for you? For most gunsmiths, no. Therefore, a system for quickly converting weapons to suit left-handers is now being actively implemented in all new systems.

Well, if you don’t understand why modularity is needed, then that’s a real problem.

Was the SA poorly trained at that time? The army only recently went through a world war and emerged victorious. and here she is poorly trained. The same can be said for your soldiers after 67. Galil was copied from an AK, an Uzi from a scorpion, and no one had any complex that this was a weapon for a poorly trained army.

[Kurkin]

Dear, what shooter do you play on your computer and what do you smoke, snort or eat? Have you seen the new AEK and the new AK 12, where do they have problems with ergonomics? Everything is at hand! The fire mode selector and safety switch are both above the pistol grip for switching with the thumb, and on both samples the controls are duplicated and located on both the right and left. A bolt stop has been introduced into the design of both copies, and it is also possible to move the reloading handle to both the right and left sides. In addition, both samples are hung with strips for attaching various devices. Both have telescopic buttstocks. These were the requirements of the RF Ministry of Defense at the competition. The neck of the magazine is also a requirement of the RF Ministry of Defense. Where is the lack of convenience and ergonomics? You write crap!

[Pimply]

No, I have been an active user of various firearms for many years, including in combat conditions. Let's see where exactly.

The neck of the magazine, for example. The problem remains the same. Blind connection is still problematic. In various customizations, a hundred years ago, a special neck was introduced that facilitates connection. This applies to both AEK and AK-12.
Next, the bolt handle is still located damn “conveniently”, both here and there. No, of course, you will now begin to tell me that this is how it should be, and that correct preparation decides everything. And I will answer - if you want to live, you won’t get so excited.

Shall we continue? Modernity involves a quick change of machine gun from right-handed to left-handed, for better adaptability to specific fighters. This won't happen here.
As well as modularity.

As for the buttstock of the AEK, the buttline, even with the new “telescope,” is quite low. Is this also a requirement of the Ministry of Defense? Or did the Ministry of Defense require an inconvenient neck? I think it required unification to fit existing stores.

[Kurkin]

Of course, there is unification with existing magazines, and from the photo of the new AEK, which is available here in the comments above, it is clear that a neck truncated at an angle has appeared; the AK 12 has no neck at all, in the best AK traditions. As for the reloading handle, it is stated that it can be changed to different sides of the weapon in the field, so that both left-handed and right-handed people are on an equal footing. Both models assume modular design - this is a requirement of the Russian Ministry of Defense. The butts are located here and there in line with the barrel, while maintaining the ability to comfortably aim through mechanical sights. The aiming line for both is increased to the entire length of the lid. What is the inconvenience, I ask again? Of course, I understand that you, as an IDF fighter, will now tell me that these improvements are all bullshit, and on Emkas, Tavors and Galils it’s all done much cooler and more convenient, but still. What exactly, taking into account what I wrote in both posts, and the known data and photos of both samples, is inconvenient, unergonomic and outdated? Maybe in the balanced automation of AEK, which American, Israeli and generally Western crafts have never even dreamed of?

[Pimply]

Quote: Kurkin

Of course, there is unification with existing magazines, and from the photo of the new AEK, which is available here in the comments above, it is clear that a neck truncated at an angle has appeared; the AK 12 has no neck at all, in the best AK traditions. H

Judging by the photo, the AEK situation is much better than the AK-12. But this does not mean that it is much better, not as it could have been.

Quote: Kurkin

As for the reloading handle, it is stated that it can be changed to different sides of the weapon in the field, so that both left-handed and right-handed people are on an equal footing.

I have never encountered this statement. Same with modularity. Separate options for 5.45 and 7.62 were shown everywhere.

Quote: Kurkin

What exactly, taking into account what I wrote in both posts, and the known data and photos of both samples, is inconvenient, unergonomic and outdated? Maybe in the balanced automation of AEK, which American, Israeli and generally Western crafts have never even dreamed of?

And it is greatly needed - balanced automation, which makes the weapon heavier, more complex and is applicable mainly for automatic fire. The principle has been known for a long time, successful principles begin to copy the fly. Remind me, do you personally know many machines with balanced automation, except in the Soviet school? And are they actively used?

[Kurkin]

How will it be used if it is protected by a patent? Even a single fire with balanced automatics will be more accurate than with a gas outlet like an EMK, or a conventional gas piston like an AK, and a semi-free bolt like a FAMAS and German handicrafts, since the impulses of the moving parts of the automatic are damped and the recoil only comes from the powder charge of the ammunition. Well, at least agree with this. Or is this also not an argument and not a plus in the direction of AEK? And you, actually, from abroad, what do you propose for our army, if you consider our developments to be outdated, the new Galil ACE, or maybe Tavor, or Famas, or Heckler und Koch, or Emku?

[Pimply]

Quote: Kurkin

How will it be used if it is protected by a patent?

Which one exactly, in which country? Patents are different. Do you know how long an international patent lasts? And when did patents stop, say, the Chinese?

No one forbade the general direction either - there are always more than one or two options for development. And yet, no one jumped on this topic. T

Quote: Kurkin

Even a single fire with balanced automation will be more accurate

How much more accurate? Under what circumstances? With an extra half a kilogram of weight?
As for AK, maybe. As for the M-ki in its modern form, that’s a big question.

No, I think we need to stop living in the past and start looking reality in the eye. Own developments should at least focus on the present, and look to the future. What is shown now was outdated several years ago. The AK-12, for example, with the arrival of Galil Ace.

[Kurkin]

Here is the patent http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/248/2482417.html

[Realist58]

Quote: Pimply

No, I think we need to stop living in the past and start looking reality in the eye. Own developments should at least focus on the present, and look to the future. What is shown now was outdated several years ago. The AK-12, for example, with the arrival of Galil Ace.

What is obsolescence???
And why are you supplying such a highly praised machine gun to the banana republics and not to your own army???

[bunta]

Quote: Kurkin

Even a single fire with balanced automatics will be more accurate than with a gas outlet like an EMK, or a conventional gas piston like an AK, and a semi-free bolt like a FAMAS and German handicrafts, since the impulses of the moving parts of the automatic are damped and the recoil only comes from the powder charge of the ammunition. Well, at least agree with this

I will bet that the accuracy of the first shot will not be better with a machine gun with a SA. The accuracy of the SECOND shot will be higher. But not accuracy.

[Kurkin]

Why? At least justify your point of view in theory.

[Rex]

Quote: Kurkin

Of course, unification with As for the reloading handle, it is stated that it can be changed to different sides of the weapon in the field

Yes, that's not what he meant. And so that two-handedness would be constant.
Like a wall on the right - I shoot from the left.
Absolutely right - you won’t, say, dismantle the barrel every couple of minutes in a building.
Another thing is that there are not many samples in the world that are comfortable in both applications without alteration.

[Kurkin]

So is this a minus due to which our weapons are much inferior to Western ones? Yes, this is complete nonsense! I just remembered ACWR offhand from the West, where the principle of two-handedness was implemented. And this rifle has not been adopted by anyone!

[Alex 241]

Steyr Mannlicher STM556 Heckler und Koch HK416C

[Kurkin]

Who adopted these crafts and when?

[Pimply]

Quote: Kurkin

Who adopted these crafts and when?

France, Bulgaria, USA, Poland, Italy, Indonesia, Slovenia, Japan, Malaysia, Norway, Serbia, South Korea, Singapore, the Netherlands, Ireland.

[Kurkin]

Well, you see, in the West they are also adopting outdated 20th century solutions!

[Pimply]

Quote: Rex

Yes, that's not what he meant. And so that two-handedness would be constant.

No, I meant a shift at least in the field in half a minute or a minute. At the moment, we have not heard about it either.

[bunta]

Quote: Kurkin

and it is also possible to transfer the reloading handle to both the right and left sides.

WHAT?! And in A-545 too?! That's it, this is a scribe.

[Pimply]

Quote: bunta

WHAT?! And in A-545 too?! That's it, this is a scribe.

Here I am about the same

[Kurkin]

Men, well, I came up with it myself, but only wrote what I read in the official description for the AK 12, and in the requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense for the new rifle complex.

[Pimply]

I read it too. At the moment, what was presented was not noticed in modularity, as in other goodies.

[phantom359]

Quote: Kurkin

Men, well, I came up with it myself, but only wrote what I read in the official description for the AK 12, and in the requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense for the new rifle complex.

A normal machine gun, certainly no worse than the M16 and Company. Have you asked what dear Lumpy has to offer? I think Gilboa is a snake. Two barrels, you won't miss.

[Pimply]

Gilboa is purely a PR project. Which worked perfectly - made people talk about the company all over the world.

At the moment, the machines that are presented are machines that live in the past.

[Russian Ivan]

It was you who came up with the idea that “everything here is geared towards burst fire.” AEK's balanced automatics do not exclude accurate single-shot shooting, including shooting from unstable positions

[Crang]

The AK-12 is a good machine gun, but why was it again chambered for the idiotic 5,45x39mm cartridge? Which ricochets off the TV. It must be done under 7,62x39mm, the lethality of which is two to three times higher. And at long distances, a heavy 7,62mm bullet behaves better.

[Sobol]

So they are planning options for 7.62

[Pimply]

Because 5.45 is not idiotic at all. What nonsense have you read about TV and so on?

[Crang]

5,45x39 idiotic needle cartridge.

Quote: Pimply

What nonsense have you read about TV and so on?

This is not nonsense, but real combat experience. If you shoot from a 5,45mm AK at a TV screen at an angle of about 70 degrees, then a ricochet is quite possible while maintaining the integrity of the screen. In addition, these bullets do not maintain their trajectory even when they hit branches and light pieces of wood. And in terms of accuracy, the AK 5,45mm is very slightly better at short distances than the AK 7,62mm.

[Pimply]

Quote: Krang

This is not nonsense, but real combat experience. If you shoot from a 5,45mm AK at a TV screen at an angle of about 70 degrees, then a ricochet is quite possible while maintaining the integrity of the screen. In addition, these bullets do not maintain their trajectory even when they hit branches and light pieces of wood. And in terms of accuracy, the AK 5,45mm is very slightly better at short distances than the AK 7,62mm.

Which 5.45 cartridge exactly? To start.

About tree branches - do you know that 7.62 has the same problem?

“PRACTICALLY ANY bullet’s center of gravity is shifted relative to the center of aerodynamic pressure (along the axis of rotation of the bullet, naturally), to one degree or another. For a small caliber (due to the shape of the bullet), the center of gravity is shifted slightly “backward” relative to the center of pressure, therefore such bullets are UNSTABLE That is, when it encounters an obstacle, the speed of rotation of the bullet around its axis may drop, and therefore the gyroscopic effect provided by the rotation will be lost, and inertia will tend to turn the bullet forward with its center of gravity. The bullet will simply tumble in the air, maintaining, however, , its trajectory. But due to its low weight and instability, a small-caliber bullet is more prone to ricochet even from a slight contact with something at an angle (the same branches)."

But this does not mean that she will ricochet from everything and behave like a drunkard at a fair. Both 5.45 and 7.62 have their advantages and disadvantages. In particular, the weight of 5.45 allows you to take more ammunition with you, and the injury rate of this caliber is higher than that of 7.62

[viktorR]

You are absolutely right about the traumatic nature!

[ran nearby]

Let me add something. Just recently (about a year ago) we had some serious shooting in Odessa - they “took” Dikaev’s gang. They shot at the building where they took cover, both with AK-74 and SVD and RPG (adiyota! building - metal frame, OSB outside, plasterboard inside ) So, I was there after all the movements and I can say - 5.45 bullets, fired from one hundred to fifty meters away, absolutely laughing, pierce steel pipes with a cross-section of 20x40 with a 2mm wall without ricocheting at all. Moreover, the meeting angle in some places was very sharp. 15 degrees. So it’s hard to believe the TV screen.
well then.

[Alex 241]

Yes, they didn’t water it lightly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rex]

Quote: Krang

5,45x39 idiotic needle cartridge.

Quote: Pimply

What nonsense have you read about TV and so on?

In addition, these bullets do not maintain their trajectory even when they hit branches and light pieces of wood. .

There were official tests on this topic (around 81-82) - published a long time ago. It describes in detail how they were conducted, there are photos of targets, etc.
It was revealed that ricochets and hits on the target flat (when shooting through thickets) are higher at 5,45 compared to 7,62 somewhere (I don’t remember exactly - by 15 percent).
Because the targets were still hit, claims about the caliber and cartridge were considered biased, but the design of the bullets began to change

[Rex]

Quote: Pimply

Because 5.45 is not idiotic at all.

Normal. At least for the last 20 years
And you can carry them much more

[Pimply]

About that and speech.

[Realist58]

One thing is certain, our army must have modern weapons that meet all the requirements of various combat situations.
But IMHO, focusing on a single model for the entire army is not at all correct.
To fight in the city, even SME fighters need at least two types; automatic accurate-long-range (with good flame extinguishing) and AN and AK12 and AEK are close to this, and rapid-fire-strong-stopping type AN12.
It’s time to think about whether fighters have several options for personal weapons, or (and) about the speedy creation of a single multi-caliber ShV-SV with interchangeable barrels.
I will also add fragments of other people's comments, from another forum with which I almost completely agree;

1.Medium optics (up to 4x) are required. It is easier to carry 100 rounds of ammunition and hit enemy personnel with 80% accuracy than to carry 1000 rounds of ammunition only to temporarily pin him to the ground. Optics (medium, up to 300 meters) both for defense and attack (and even more so for clearing populated areas) is required! If a well-trained sniper can stop the advance of an entire battalion, then a squad of conscript boys (after games like Counter-Strike and Call-of-duty), under the command of a competent sergeant, having "stayers" will stop the company's advance by 1-2-3 "train stand 1-2".
2. The presence of a grenade launcher integrated into the forend. The Americans have both grenades and shotgun cartridges for grenade launchers. I don’t know if our people invented shotgun cartridges or not, but it’s a great thing - you can tear down the lock on a door, or even the entire door during clearing out buildings, and hit a group of enemy soldiers with one volley of buckshot. Napoleon said - give me 10 cannons with buckshot and I will again become the Emperor of France (something like that, historians will be more precise). The grenade launcher is the last argument of the kings. In addition, a barrel that is well and correctly drawn to it will shake and bend less when shooting. http://forum.topwar.ru/topic/91-%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%8
2%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D1%81-%D1%80%D1%84/

Basic requirements for a single machine:
-the operation of the automation is based on the removal of powder gases from the barrel bore. The gas piston has a short stroke and is not connected to the bolt frame.
- locking the barrel bore with a rotary bolt.
-USM - trigger type.
- caliber – 5,45mm or 7,62mm
...
http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/ar/ru/advanced-gpar

[Mairos]

Oh, how everything is running!! Where did the sniper stop the battalion? Remind me? This is from the realm of fairy tales.

[Realist58]

Well, the author apparently embellished the battalion, but nevertheless...

During the second Chechen war, a sniper from one of the Russian special forces, being in an ambush, took a position in the crown of a dense tree. Having discovered a group of militants, he waited until they all came out into the open and, opening fire at effective fire range, destroyed the entire group before they figured out where the fire was coming from[1].

Having 2-3 barrels with optics in the compartment, you can effectively (under the cover of automatic fire) destroy the most dangerous enemy targets.

[Rex]

[quote=Realist58][1].[/quote]
Having 2-3 barrels with optics in the compartment, you can effectively (under the cover of automatic fire) destroy the most dangerous enemy targets.[/quote]

So no one will go full-length on snipers.
They are just "dangerous targets"
If possible, the gaktar will be plowed from all available species, just to get its darling.
If a position is spotted, and those “offended” have mortars, anti-aircraft guns, automatic guns - running is your best weapon

[Realist58]

This is not World War II. Snipers have been working in groups with cover for a long time, and if necessary, artillery-air-tank support will be called in once, twice, three times (for sure).
And we are not talking about a lone sniper (hatching out in the bushes of a drug war), but about acting as part of a squad of fighters with more accurate weapons under the cover of automatic fire, with the primary task of destroying the grenade launcher-machine gunner-sniper-team

[MRomanovich]

If it turns out that there will still be a competition, then I, like many others, will be only happy. Because this is how it should be, and not as it is now with the AK-12 - it came to mind, made it, proposed it and without looking it was adopted into service, of course this is figurative, but so far everything looks something like this.
If specifically for the “competing” samples, then both are undoubtedly more than worthy and I’m sure the competition will not be easy, of course, unless the competition is a fiction. No matter how much skeptics scold the AK-12 and call it a clunky analogue of the AK-74, it has a couple of really very useful things - a bolt stop and a longer sighting line thanks to the reliable fastening of the receiver cover (I personally don’t see any other noticeable advantages) . As for everything else - rails, handle, fashionable stock, new muzzle device, etc., they cannot and should not be a quality measure, since they can be attached to any sample. As for the presence of an additional firing mode with a burst cut-off, its presence is also a very controversial issue - in some cases it may be useful, but often it will only get in the way. As for the opponent, in the person of the modified AEK, in terms of accuracy it is undoubtedly better than the AK-12 and this is probably its only advantage over the AK-12. In a word, in order to win the competition (fair!), the AK-12 must be easier to maintain and more reliable than its competitor, there are no other options.
And in the end, I would like to say to some comrades, stop talking nonsense about professional and worker-peasant weapons. Do you think that Soviet soldiers, and now Russian ones, are less educated and, most importantly, dumber than the bourgeois ones? For example, they don’t have separate machines for the smart and the not so smart. Everyone, regardless of mental and musculoskeletal capabilities, uses the same machine gun. Will our soldier really not be able to find the shutter stop button or install the sight on the rails? If we use your logic, but from the other end, then the AK is much more professional than the Western model, hung with all sorts of sights and bells and whistles, from which it is easier and faster to aim, which is convenient to hold when firing in bursts, and in the AK all this requires more skills and training.

[Alex Nikandrov]

I would like to remind you that with all its advantages, the firing range is 1000 meters, and our first machine gun on Japanese cartridges fired at 2500 meters, which means the new model must shoot at least 3000 meters, the Maxim machine gun fired at this distance.

[Realist58]

What's the point of shooting at 3 km with standard small arms??
Scare the enemy so that he calls for air support and watches from a safe distance as you are chopped into cabbage?

[Assistant]

According to the source "Manual on shooting. 7,62-mm modernized Kalashnikov assault rifle (AKM and AKMS)." - M.: Voenizdat, 1983, - aimed fire from AKM and AKMS should have been conducted at a distance of no more than 400 - 450 meters (and then at this distance - single). At greater distances, the platoon fired concentrated fire at the command of the platoon leader, that is, they threw bullets, like in the old days with arrows from bows - according to statistics, someone had to hit the target.
It is better to operate not with the concept of “sighting range”, but with the concept of “effective fire range”.

[MRomanovich]

Quote: Alex Nikandrov

I would like to remind you that with all its advantages, the firing range is 1000 meters, and our first machine gun on Japanese cartridges fired at 2500 meters, which means the new model must shoot at least 3000 meters, the Maxim machine gun fired at this distance.

alas, but an intermediate cartridge for 3 km. - it’s not realistic, except perhaps to disperse a bullet with an electromagnet, but that will be a completely different thing

[7ydmco]

Quote: 1961NNN

AEK-971, won the tests in the AK-74, but Kalashnikov was behind it !!! He lobbied and the AK-74 was accepted!

Why do you think so?

[Uzer 13.]

New types of weapons must be created and produced in small batches for testing, all this must be done and everyone understands this. But only in the event of a real large-scale war, the simplicity and reliability of the AK will greatly outweigh all the marketing bells and whistles. And the shortcomings of the Kalashnikov assault rifle can be easily corrected by simple means. For example, if you put a good muzzle brake-compensator on the same AKM, and make a rail for attaching sights on the reinforced barrel coupling, then you still need to see who will choose what. For the sake of fairness, it should be noted that the AEK actually does not throw up when firing. Moreover, this is a reason to test the weapon under conditions of practical use in military units.

[Ytfluunu]

Quote: Realist58

then the section of conscript boys (after games like Counter-Strike and Call-of-duty)

and how, it is interesting to know, the skills of accurately positioning the cursor on the monitor using a mouse manipulator contribute to effective firing from real weapons?..

[Landwarrior]

AEK is good, but for a professional soldier. The conscript will render him completely unusable. While our army is considered conscript, the simpler the better. When and if we come to a contractual agreement, then yes, there are no words. Both AEK and Abakan will go.

[Kurkin]

Men, why did you all get it right, AEK for professionals? Do we have young people who go into military service who are completely ignorant and underdeveloped? We already have several airborne brigades and not only are they completely formed by professionals, but we also issue them AEKs with all kinds of body kits! It is with them that we must begin to rearm! And let the conscripts serve with AK74s, fortunately they are piled up in warehouses, which is enough for a mobilization reserve. Also Kalash in all sorts of auxiliary troops, that is, not the front line of battle. But professional paratroopers, marines, reconnaissance officers, in general, parts of constant combat readiness and rapid deployment, staffed by contract soldiers, need to be armed with AEKs.

[Landwarrior]

Kurkin, do you have dyslexia? I wrote that AEK is for pros, but conscripts need something simpler

[Kurkin]

And I asked you a question, and you ignored it. Then I’ll repeat. Do we have young people who go into military service who are completely ignorant and underdeveloped? And the second question, based on your point of view. Do you think contract soldiers are much smarter and more educated than conscripts? Contract workers and professionals, as you put it, are they the same thing?

[Pimply]

If you approach from this position, the soldiers should fight with clubs.

[Landwarrior]

Pimply, you are apparently a civilian and don’t understand that in the time now allotted to conscripts, they won’t have time to learn how to handle weapons at all. Therefore, they need something simpler. Although actually you've gone too far

[Pimply]

Quote: Landwarrior

Pimply, you are apparently a civilian and don’t understand that in the time now allotted to conscripts, they won’t have time to learn how to handle weapons at all. Therefore, they need something simpler. Although actually you've gone too far

I have three years of combat experience and several years of reservist training in the Middle East. Accelerated training of an infantry unit soldier, giving quite acceptable results - a month. Full-fledged - from 4 months to six months. This involves firing several thousand rounds of ammunition, completing several specialized courses, and training on the scale of a platoon, company, battalion, and brigade.

Conscripts do all this very well.

[Landwarrior]

Okay, I'm sorry, I lost my temper.

[Rex]

[quote=Pimply][quote=Landwarrior]
I have three years of combat experience and several years of reservist training in the Middle East. [/quote]

My question is off topic as a M16 user.
A couple of years ago they told a story - a 74x5,56 was fired from our regular AK-45 (the model of the cartridge is unknown, the modification of the rifle is also unknown).
Then we tried to shoot our 16x5,45 from the M39, but it didn’t work.
Is this possible in principle? Although essentially both bullets are 5,6-5,61, the cartridges still differ in size...
In general, we were puzzled..

[Pimply]

Quote: Rex

My question is off topic as a M16 user.
A couple of years ago they told a story - a 74x5,56 was fired from our regular AK-45 (the model of the cartridge is unknown, the modification of the rifle is also unknown).
Then we tried to shoot our 16x5,45 from the M39, but it didn’t work.

Russian 5.45 is not widespread in the world. If it comes across, then 7.62. And no one undertook such experiments, sorry.

[Realist58]

As far as I heard, the smaller caliber is 5,45, this is our military trick. Like we can shoot with their cartridge (if absolutely necessary), but they can’t use ours. It seems that due to this one hundredth, the powder gases could not disperse the bullet in the barrel of a NATO weapon.

[ultra]

Quote: Landwarrior

that in the time now allotted to conscripts, they won’t have time to learn how to handle weapons at all.

If they are engaged in combat training, and not digging up vegetable gardens and repairing dachas, then there will be enough time.

[uwzek]

Certainly! Why does a conscript need a complex weapon? In general, a slingshot will be enough for him (but with an asterisk). But for some reason, many conscripts take a very active part in all conflicts? And the Kalashnikov has been out of date for thirty to forty years.

[Rex]

Quote: Russ69

Quote: aktanir

And if Kalashnikov starts hysteria that if their AK loses in the competition, the company will be left without work, and thousands of workers without bread and earnings, then this is their headache - let them finish their brainchild conscientiously and make it really competitive.

So that this does not happen, you can take into service both automatic machines, but to promote the AK-12 for export, and AEK basically to buy for yourself. It’s just harder to sell weapons that aren’t accepted at home.

The same thought also came to mind - how long can they “measure themselves with their pussies”. 40 years have already passed...

[Assistant]

The Kovrov weapon showed the accuracy and accuracy of fire required of it, including when firing in bursts from unstable positions. As for the weapon developed by the Izhmash enterprise, it, as a source told Izvestia, does not meet the army’s requirements for accuracy, accuracy and reliability.

One question gnaws at me: it turns out that the AEK system is more reliable than the AK system? Previously, I heard that AEK has one very significant drawback: the short resource of the coupling system between the bolt and balancing pistons, which ensures the simultaneous impact of two masses in opposite directions. If the resource of the entire AEK was about 10 shots, then the resource of the coupling mechanism was about 000 shots. That is, the machine itself is, of course, reliable, but it has a part that needs to be changed periodically.
Knowledgeable people, please explain how the Kovrovites got rid of this shortcoming?

[bunta]

Quote: Assistant

One question gnaws at me: it turns out that the AEK system is more reliable than the AK system? Previously, I heard that AEK has one very significant drawback: the short resource of the coupling system between the bolt and balancing pistons, which ensures the simultaneous impact of two masses in opposite directions. If the resource of the entire AEK was about 10 shots, then the resource of the coupling mechanism was about 000 shots. That is, the machine itself is, of course, reliable, but it has a part that needs to be changed periodically.
Knowledgeable people, please explain how the Kovrovites got rid of this shortcoming?

A-545 showed the best reliability indicators. (AK)-12 has nothing to do with AK!

Reliability indicators: nameplate reliability is 15, taking into account the safety factor accepted in defense engineering equal to two, this will be 000.

I don’t know anything about the 1000 gear resource, but this is actually the second weak link. The first is the weight of the countermass. Because of this, the A-545 is half a kilo heavier than the AK-12. (Zlobin trumps this). The reliability of the gear can only be increased by using some super-alloys or removing it (with the development of some new kinematics, which is unlikely). Then the question arises, which is cheaper - a kinematics with a superalloy gear and racks, or a titanium bolt frame. The density of titanium is two times less than that of iron; accordingly, the disturbance with which balanced automation fights will be two times less.
So the question is open.

[the47th]

I wonder if Baryshev’s assault rifles will be at the competition?

[Realist58]

Shipko is unlikely. You won’t get any kickbacks from this Baryshev. Moreover, he will continue to worry about it later with other developments... that way, the generals will have a curvature of the gyrus.

Really interesting samples. But without a free arms market, they won’t get further than YouTube.

[bunta]

Quote: the47th

I wonder if Baryshev’s assault rifles will be at the competition?

Shot from an open shutter. Never.

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

Will you use concepts from 70 years ago? Then the task was to massively arm a poorly trained multi-million army.

64 years ago, when the machine gun was put into service and its production began, the USSR WAS THE MOST PROFESSIONAL AND BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD!

Get this on your nose!

[Pimply]

Quote: bunta

64 years ago, when the machine gun was put into service and its production began, the USSR WAS THE MOST PROFESSIONAL AND BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD!

The most widespread. With a lot of people who haven't even finished high school. Yes, some units with extensive combat experience. And this combat experience said that soldiers are actively dying in a serious confrontation and will be replaced by young, often illiterate soldiers.

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

The most widespread.

Since no more than 25% of its personnel took part directly in the hostilities, the rest were political workers and their wives, laundresses, doctors and other botanists, who do not need a machine gun. Look at the statistics and read the literature.
PS By the way, the Wehrmacht had the same picture.

[Pimply]

Quote: bunta

Since no more than 25% of its personnel took part directly in the hostilities, the rest were political workers and their wives, laundresses, doctors and other botanists, who do not need a machine gun. Look at the statistics and read the literature.
PS By the way, the Wehrmacht had the same picture.

And what exactly are we talking about here? The norm is that parts involved in direct collision are 20-30%.

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

And what exactly are we talking about here?

The fact that by the end of the war, “poor training” did not apply to the soldiers of the Soviet army, but to the German Volkssturm. Read!Rezun about how military operations were prepared in the SA, even starting in 43.

zy !Rezun, means non-Rezun. (Konev, Zhukov, Poppel...)

[Alex 241]

Quote: bunta

Volkssturm.

These also did a lot of business; during the Berlin operation, about 800 tanks were destroyed.

[bunta]

Quote: Alex 241

These also did a lot of business; during the Berlin operation, about 800 tanks were destroyed.

Normal figure.

"According to the TsAMO of the Russian Federation, the 2nd Guards Tank Army under the command of Colonel General S.I. Bogdanov during street fighting in Berlin from April 22 to May 2, 1945, irretrievably lost 52 T-34s, 31 M4A2 Shermans, 4 IS -2, 4 ISU-122, 5 SU-100, 2 SU-85, 6 SU-76, which amounted to 16% of the total number of combat vehicles before the start of the Berlin operation. It should be taken into account that the tank crews of the 2nd Army operated without sufficient rifle cover and, according to combat reports, in some cases the tank crews were combing houses. 3rd Guards Tank Army under the command of General P. S. Rybalko During the fighting in Berlin from April 23 to May 2, 1945, it irretrievably lost 99 tanks and 15 self-propelled guns, which amounted to 23% of the combat vehicles available at the beginning of the Berlin operation. The 4th Guards Tank Army under the command of General D. D. Lelyushenko found itself involved in street battles on the outskirts of Berlin from April 23 to May 2, 1945, only partially and irrevocably lost 46 combat vehicles [3]. At the same time, a significant part of the armored vehicles were lost after being hit by Faust cartridges."

This is not just a normal number. This is a figure worthy of admiration.

[Alex 241]

You took the figures for the assault on Berlin, I took the Berlin operation, which began on April 23. And our tank crews had to deal with the Faustians back in Hungary.

[bunta]

Quote: Alex 241

Berlin operation, which began on April 23

from April 16th. Already in the city on the 23rd.

[Alex 241]

Your truth, my memory failed me, it lasted 23 days.

[Pimply]

We are talking about what period - the post-war period. When the experience of World War II was directly experienced. And the experience of World War II showed that an urgent multimillion-dollar mobilization of poorly trained and illiterate conscripts may be required. You noticed this.

It’s better not to read Rezun.

[Alex 241]

Zhen, but you yourself understand that easy-to-use weapons, even in the hands of an amateur, do terrible things.

[Pimply]

Do I really argue with this, Sash? I'm saying that the AK was developed for a mass mobilization army with a low level of conscripts and a fairly low culture of handling weapons. That's all. A good, powerful weapon that compensated for the soldier’s shortcomings. Only then was the norm a seven-year school, and even a five-year one.

Now the conditions are somewhat different.

[Alex 241]

Zhen, I don’t understand what the problem is? Learn a few amendments, and the NAP for this, do you really need to have seven spans in your forehead, you need to radically change the ideology of weapons, and not engage in rebranding, as in that joke: no matter what we do, we still end up with marijuana.

[Pimply]

Sasha, in order to radically change the ideology of weapons, new sources of energy are needed. Once they appear, you will have a railgun. At this point, the adoption of low power optics and red dots alone has done about as much as the adoption of the intermediate cartridge.

[Alex 241]

Zhen, I’m talking a little about something else, balanced automation, ergonomics, you know, even the angle of the stock changes a lot! The same minimum conversion set.

[Alex 241]

Here's Zhen what the imported boys did.

[bunta]

Quote: Pimply

I'm saying that the AK was developed for a mass mobilization army with a low level of conscripts and a fairly low culture of handling weapons.

What is your evidence?

“The level of culture in handling weapons” of a student at Leningrad University is obviously lower than that of a pharmacist from Berlinerstrasse?

[Alex 241]

Believe me, some pharmacists know more and more deeply about weapons than specialists.

[bunta]

And some Russian programmers understand weapons better than General Designers. I believe. Cho.

[Alex 241]

You know, I’ll tell you an incident from my life. The laptop crashed, I didn’t do anything with it, I rolled it back and rewrote the disk, zero by zero, brought it to the office of the IT people, they fiddled around for a day, to no avail. A security guard came up and did everything in 40 minutes.

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

Now the conditions are somewhat different.

And now graduates of MGIMO and Harvard are joining the army?

[Realist58]

WHAT ARE YOU...statistical data to the studio.

Ssakashvili, is the UN rostrum not enough for you??

[iConst]

There is certainly a need for significantly better weapons. But in limited quantities. Modern methods of warfare were demonstrated by the Americans in Iraq.
There were no large-scale infantry assault operations, as, for example, in the Chechen campaign. They attacked with missiles and drones, and only then did the infantry clear out what was left.

In this light, it may be better to buy a license to produce a limited batch of weapons for the pros. In the 30s, the Union actively bought various licenses both from the same Americans and from Germany. Betushki, T-34 were made on the Christie chassis. Krupp field guns. Why, the famous mosquito grew out of the Nagant.

[Kurkin]

What kind of weapon for a pro if your own is much better?

[Colonel]

G.R.E.B. specialists, at least don’t touch Mosin. What do Mosin and Nagant rifles have in common? Just a cut-off reflector and another question: who borrowed from whom.

[Kurkin]

Quote: Pimply

How much more accurate? Under what circumstances? With an extra half a kilogram of weight?
As for AK, maybe. As for the M-ki in its modern form, that’s a big question.

What makes you think that there is an additional half a kilo of weight? AEK 973 weight without magazine 3,25 kg, AK 12 weight without magazine 3,3 kg. Just googled it. Official sources. More precisely, both Mki and Klasha definitely. There was a video on YouTube of tests of all three at the Central Research Institute TochMash. AEK definitely beat out its competitors. Kalash 2 times, Mku 1,5.

[Pimply]

Which of the M-ok? With what cartridges? What Kalash? With what cartridges? What exactly is the test standard?

I look at the footage from these tests - tattered rifles of unknown origin with unknown firing with unknown cartridges against piece AEK samples. Bravo.

The fact that he pushed everyone into the Central Research Institute TochMash - well, there is no doubt, it is the Central Research Institute AEK that is pushing through, it would be surprising to see the return. M-4 without magazine - 2.6 Kg.

Half a kilo from where? “A balancer has been added to the automation unit, corresponding in mass to the bolt group. The bolt frame and the balancer are connected through racks and gears, the axis of which is fixed in the receiver.”
The weight of the balancer and gear is enough for half a kilo? Maybe more.

[Kurkin]

AEK and AK are almost identical in weight. M4 is a short barrel, M16 how much does it weigh? AKSU is also less than 3 kg, let's separate the flies from the cutlets. I see that you don’t have any arguments. Therefore, I will not prove anything to you anymore. I'll just say a few things. Central Research Institute Tochmash does not move anyone, they conduct state tests, that’s their status. In addition, they themselves produce small arms, in particular GSh 18, Gyurza, ADS, A 91, GM 94, etc. At the same time, they will move AEK, having their own line of models that can be promoted for adoption of weapons?

[Pimply]

Quote: Kurkin

AEK and AK are almost identical in weight. M4 is a short barrel, M16 how much does it weigh?

The M4 is now the main weapon. M16A2 weighs 3.25 - this is with a reinforced barrel, M16 classic - 2.88

Quote: Kurkin

Central Research Institute Tochmash does not move anyone, they conduct state tests, that’s their status.

You're laughing, right? Uncle is joking. Tell that to someone who deals with guns. He will laugh for a long time. Central Research Institute Tochmash does not move anyone 8)

[Kurkin]

Well, you see, it’s no longer half a kilo, but almost identical weight for full-fledged rifles, not short-barreled ones. I haven’t heard that in the USA they removed all M16s from service and sent them to warehouses and replaced them with M4s, there is both, and both are basic. Also in the USA they adopted the XK 416 and Scar, but this does not mean that the M16 has ceased to be the main rifle there. Well, I’m not a gunsmith, I don’t produce or sell weapons, explain to me, who is illiterate, which copy and how does the Central Research Institute Tochmash move? AEK? Well, the same AK 12 was advertised for two years no worse than a Hollywood blockbuster, with the involvement of Rogozin, and at that time the Kovrovites were calmly working on their model.

[Pimply]

Quote: Kurkin

Well, you see, it’s no longer half a kilo, but almost identical weight for full-fledged rifles, not short-barreled ones.

Half a kilo hasn't gone anywhere.
The M-4 is the main rifle, and there is a difference in kilograms if you compare it.

AK-12 was moved everywhere by IZHMASH, TsNII moved and is moving by AEK, these are two competitive companies.

[Kurkin]

I repeat, compare M4 with AKSU or AKU 12, since it is a carbine and not a full-fledged rifle! Why is it so tight?

[Pimply]

Why? Only in size? We're talking about the main battle rifle, and what should replace it. AKSU, at the moment, has not become one, the AK-74M is. M4 - became. Why is he inferior to you, our hot one?
At the moment, both the AK-12 and the AEK weigh 3.5 kg without a magazine, which is a kilo more than the M4, the MAIN rifle of the US Armed Forces, which also has a decent margin for modernization and a possible change of barrel. Moreover, various developments are underway to modularize the M-ki. Both AEK and Ak-12 lose greatly in this.

[Kurkin]

But the Mka is inferior to both of ours in terms of reliability, and the absence of a gas piston in its design is definitely a thing of the past. I wish you to continue to admire and pray for Western and our own crafts, and we, in our own country, will admire ours. And in my opinion, the new version of the AEK is no worse than foreign crafts, and in some samples it is several times better, and I will be incredibly happy if it is still adopted by the army, and a civilian semi-automatic version also appears. For this reason, I propose to end the debate, since you do not hear my arguments, and yours are not critical and not significant, therefore everyone will remain with their own opinion. Thanks for the discussion.

[phantom359]

How do you know what the mass of the balancer is? And a review is a review. The Americans filmed the bullpup on video, apparently it didn’t make it, but the T72 exploded as if it wasn’t a tank, but an ammunition depot. The Germans gave the M16 its brain a little, but this does not mean that it became as wonderful as you describe. You wrote that you were dealing with the Arabs, I doubt that they had good examples of AKs.

[Pimply]

That's why the weight was announced, for example, by Zlobin.

What a bulap they filmed, what a video.

[Alex 241]

Zhenya, if you have dealt with the M-249, tell me how good it is, how is it praised?

[Rex]

Quote: Alex 241

Zhenya, if you have dealt with the M-249, tell me how good it is, how is it praised?

I'll join you.
If you haven’t learned Injaz, you won’t be able to sit on their forums (electronic translators are not suitable here)...
Translated comments from their Marines (without linking to the source) are floating around online, saying that there are often problems with the M249. Like “if the M16 requires sand to be delayed, then the M249 doesn’t need that either” ???

[Kurkin]

There’s no point in discussing with him, he’s impenetrable, like a Merkava in the forehead!
Your and my question to him: “Where does the data on the balancer come from?”
His answer: “Zlobin said in an interview”
But to open the official performance characteristics and look, from which it is clear that the AEK is even lighter than the Zlobinsky AK 12 by 50 grams, either inadequacy, or beliefs, or faith does not allow it! Faith in the holy M4 with a design where powder gases enter directly into the receiver and litter it into trash! This is, according to the pimply weapon of the 21st century! But the AEK with a gas piston, a receiver that is not sensitive to contamination, and balanced automatics is the last century! He's stubborn, I'm telling you that!

[bunta]

Quote: Kurkin

What makes you think that there is an additional half a kilo of weight?

Zlobin said in an interview.

[Kurkin]

Is it difficult to look at the performance characteristics from official sources? Or will we take the word of a person who is interested in promoting his products, and from his lips, his products will always be the best?

[bunta]

Quote: Kurkin

Kalash 2 times, Mku 1,5.

On the contrary.

[Kurkin]

I may have made a mistake here.

[Blondin nikonov]

Underfunding and lack of qualified personnel unfortunately only lead to stagnation, or even worse, to regression. Which, in turn, affected the development and production of domestic small arms.... Ak-12 tuning Ak-74 and that’s all, I haven’t personally seen it about AEK, but a friend served in the special forces and spoke very flatteringly about this “machine gun” .....

[Kovrovsky]

Quote: aktanir

AEK is like a good machine gun, although I never held it in my hands. I just hope that the state. tests will not be biased. And the Kalashnikov concern will not put pressure on the commission in different ways and with different connections to push its AK-12. After all, it is more important to choose for our army the really best machine gun of those that the developers now have.
And if Kalashnikov starts hysteria that if their AK loses in the competition, the company will be left without work, and thousands of workers without bread and earnings, then this is their headache - let them finish their brainchild conscientiously and make it really competitive. And then they promoted AK-12 ahead of time, but there was little sense. (If you believe, of course, what is said in this information).

Well, they definitely won’t be left without a piece of bread! They have a wide range of firearms, for which there is a strong demand around the world, including in the USA, Germany, etc. But the Kalashnikov concern produces not only firearms.

[vietnam7]

No matter what happened with the Abakan, they also shouted that the Kalash was better, but if I’m not mistaken, they armed only the explosives division and calmed down, it turned out to be difficult for conscripts to master. For the first six months, it’s dangerous for a conscript to trust anything other than a shovel and an Kalash, or he’ll break it or lose it :)

[Larus]

Some kind of muddy competition, in which the winner may not necessarily be the one with the best weapon, taking into account the modern specifics of the work of our authorities.

[MRomanovich]

Quote: vietnam7

No matter what happened with the Abakan, they also shouted that the Kalash was better, but if I’m not mistaken, they armed only the explosives division and calmed down, it turned out to be difficult for conscripts to master. For the first six months, it’s dangerous for a conscript to trust anything other than a shovel and an Kalash, or he’ll break it or lose it :)

AN94 is difficult not only for conscripts, but also for the notorious professionals, about whom some people like to talk so much. The adoption of such a design as the AN94 can be equated to high treason. And most importantly, do not underestimate conscripts. If a soldier is not d_e_b_i_l, he will master any weapon, because this is how Western soldiers cope with “professional” M16, G36, etc., although their level of intelligence is hardly higher than that of our soldiers. You can also often come across statements about the low level of conscripts, but where is the guarantee that an educated nerd, who in his life has never held anything heavier than a ballpoint pen in his hands, can handle a weapon better than a blockhead from a car repair shop.

[Realist58]

Quote: MRomanovich

AN94 is difficult not only for conscripts, but also for the notorious professionals, about whom some people like to talk so much. The adoption of such a design as the AN94 can be equated to high treason.

And what is the complexity of the AN94? For me, a simple conscript of the USSR border troops (and with a high education level), the video posted here was enough to understand and remember the principle of its design and methods of disassembling the assembly. If you are ready to provide a sample, I will assemble and disassemble it without any problems. Of course, I don’t guarantee the standard, but 3-4 times I’ll do it.
The one who still buys these weapons ONLY in single copies should be accused of treason.

[D_L]

It's time to...

[DesToeR]

High treason is the adoption of ANY of these models: AEK, Abakan, AK-XX. Tell me what’s better: give 3-5k USD and have a lot of trouble with a new barrel, or give 1...2k and upgrade the AKM/AK-74? Finally, give us a normal telescopic stock, replace the top cover of the receiver with an aluminum or polymer one with a Weaver rail, and include a collimator sight with a tactical (as if there are strategic) handles as standard. That's all! 90% of problems with AK will be a thing of the past. The USSR was no fool and, let’s face it: the AK-74 was put into service when the M16 was thoroughly studied. 100% in state tests it (M16) was parallel to Kalashnikov. That they adopted a worse model than that of a potential enemy? Stupid, right? All their “accuracy” and “accuracy” are bourgeois - a myth. Invest as much money in the AK74 as in the G36, surround it with all these gadgets and the result will be within 3%, i.e. statistical error. I recently saw an article on the accuracy of AKs on a website, and the author directly says: it’s not the barrel, but the sighting devices - they need to be changed. By the way, a question about AEK: since when did the long (more than 3 rounds) burst mode become the main one? As far as I know, the main fire mode is a short burst of 2-3 rounds. So in this mode, the AN-94 will put everyone in the belt. And how much does the AK-74 lose in single fire/short burst mode to the AN-94/AEK/AK-12? Is it critical that 16 million? write off copies?

[Kurkin]

Yes, it seems no one is going to write off the 16 million guns stored in the warehouses of the Moscow Region. AK 12 is an AK 74, only heavily modernized, just according to your recipe, apparently that’s why the Ministry of Defense is not happy with it, since there are a lot of AK 74 in warehouses, which can simply be modernized according to the AK 12 recipe, adding straps to the forend and receiver cover . The competition for a new assault rifle is being held for the project of new equipment for soldiers “Ratnik” and there is not only an assault rifle but also means of protection, communications, reconnaissance, target designation, etc.

[Droid]

Quote: Vitold

Firing in bursts has never been effective.

Why do you think so?

[DesToeR]

What does this have to do with Ratnik? Why create your own “barrel” for each new equipment? Is it a problem to “link” weapon ballistics to sighting systems? There is no point in upgrading an AK-74 to an AK-12 - the body and interior are different, and it is not economically profitable. I think the problem is with the military, i.e. in the Customer. We have the super reliable AK-74, the AN-94 that is super accurate in short burst mode, and the AEK that is stable in long burst mode. Choose what you need and ALL. The military themselves have not understood what they want for 30 years, hence the adoption of the AN-94 into service with a meager production, then the refusal to purchase the AK-74M, a new-old competition where AEK is already in the lead. Under Stalin, a similar thing happened with self-loading rifles, but in the end they fought with the Mosinka throughout the Second World War. The Russians have a saying: they don’t seek good from good.

[Russian Ivan]

Quote: Cat

“The problem of left-handed people” - IMHO, it’s a complete mess. Because if he is left-handed, this does not mean that he has only one left hand, he also has a right hand, and it is quite working. As for “greater convenience,” right-handed people, for example, according to etiquette, hold a spoon in their right hand and a fork in their left, and that’s all. No one seems to miss the mark =))) And according to statistics, left-handed people make up 10% of the total population - how many are there in the army, and is it worth rearmament because of this? So from there.

I myself am left-handed; when I served, I never experienced any inconvenience from the fact that my AK-74 is designed for right-handed people. In the army, I picked up a weapon for the first time, I still shot from the stance that was familiar to me, and I was no worse at it than others.

[comraf74]

I would like to believe that the reason for this is not the size of the rollback

[Sergey_89]

In any case, one plant will not cope with the rearmament; many units will be involved; the question is whose weapons will be manufactured. One thing I don’t understand is that this article describes a certain “source” whose origin is unknown, he opposes the Kalashnikov concern, while the manufacturer of the AK-12 published an official press release explaining the situation. It feels like there is an information struggle going on, but for what?! unclear.

[negeroi]

There has been and will be competition, and this article is also an element of competition. They will accept the option that the left leg wants. And the justification will be very reasonable, scientific, government and so on.

[Strv]

AEK looks more interesting in this case, but given the complexity of the design, the level of training will need to be raised.

[4rn4]

Why not adopt both models? If the Kovrov AEK has better accuracy by 10-15%, as they say, and the AK-12 is cheaper to produce and simpler, then the AK can be accepted into combat units and the AEK into special forces. Thus, both plants will be proportionally loaded according to their production capabilities (the Kovrov plant, as far as I know, has less capacity). In addition to all this, both models will have the potential to be promoted for export, because both have been adopted for service at home. Which would also help manufacturers from a financial point of view.

[MeAnfan]

Let's hope that the best manufacturer wins, and not the one who pays more to the officials from the Moscow Region!!!

[picca2]

The Kovrov assault rifle, no matter what they say, is a new idea of ​​Russian gunsmiths. They will bring it to mind!

[Arno]

I watched the video.
AEK is certainly better than AK.
The muzzle is generally practically motionless when shooting.
When firing a continuous burst from a Kalash, it is impossible to hold the machine gun in one position.

[Ruyk]

AK-12 is some kind of trachoma. look at the thickness of the barrel? THIS IS NOT THE GATE AT ALL

[Pate]

Of course, I understood perfectly well that the monopolist was defeated in the competition and during the time that passed he managed to develop new modifications of the AK-12, which are designated AK-12M. Since then, nothing has been heard about the Kovrov products A-545 and A-762 .