Military Review

Each tank has its own trap

224
Each tank has its own trapIsraeli tank Merkava Mk.4 - not a guarantee of success


two stories about that most perfect weapon in itself is not a guarantee of victory in battle. When meeting with a tactically competent and morally stable opponent, it will be successfully destroyed.

Both events occurred on the same day - August 12, but only with a difference of 60 years. In both cases, the latest Tanks, which at that time were the masterpieces of tank building, were bits of an older or theoretically unequal weapon.

"ROYAL TIGERS"

The first story dates back to 12 August 1944. Events took place in Poland in the area of ​​the Sandomierz bridgehead near the settlement of Staszów. As a result of the Soviet offensive in the summer of 1944, the fascist army suffered a series of heavy defeats. The troops of the first Ukrainian front reached the Vistula and captured a bridgehead on the west bank of the river. The fascists, in order to eliminate the bridgehead, began to force troops from Germany and Hungary and hoped to dismember and destroy Soviet troops with powerful blows in converging directions. 10 August 1944 The Germans finished concentrating their troops in the area west of Khmilnyk. Their groupings included the 3-I and 16-I tank, 20-I motorized divisions and 501-th battalion of heavy tanks.

The German command intended to strike through Khmilnyk on Rakov and Staszów end-to-end between the 13 and 5-th Guards armies, seize the ferry on the Charna river and go to the Vistula in the Baranuva region. The “secret weapon”, on which the main emphasis was laid, the Germans considered their 501 battalion of heavy tanks, equipped with the latest T-VIB tanks - the “Royal Tiger”.

This battalion had an interesting fate. Formed in May 1942 of the year in Erfurt on the basis of new T-VIH Tiger tanks, in November 1942 of the year it was sent to North Africa. There, despite successful actions against American and British tanks in the desert, six months later, in May 1943, the battalion was almost completely destroyed in Northern Tunisia. After reshaping and retraining in France, the battalion, receiving 45 new "Tigers", went to the Eastern Front near Vitebsk. However, during the outbreak of the Soviet offensive operation, Bagration was again defeated. For the third time, the tank battalion was recreated on the basis of the latest for that time T-VIB Royal Tiger tanks. At the same time, only two companies out of three were equipped with tanks, since by the middle of 1944, their production only gained momentum: in July, 45 tanks were launched, in August - 83 tanks.

The Royal Tiger was very difficult and time consuming to manufacture and operate the machine. Weighed 69,8 tons, the crew consisted of five people. The height of the tank - 375 cm, thickness of the hull - 150 mm, board and feed - 80 mm, turret front - 180 mm, maximum speed - 38 km / h, cruising range - 170 km along the highway, cross-country - 120 km. The radio station provided communication at a distance of 9,4 km. The tank had an 88-mm anti-tank gun, the barrel of which was longer than 6 m (6298 mm), and two MG42 machine guns. The ammunition consisted of 84 shots to the cannon and 4800 cartridges for machine guns. The initial speed of the armor-piercing projectile - 1000 m / s. As an auxiliary weapon, the tank was equipped with a melee device - a mortar of 26 mm caliber, which was equipped with smoke, fragmentation and fragmentation-incendiary projectiles.

The armor penetration of the 88-mm cannon “Royal tiger” at a distance of 1000 m was 165 mm at an angle 30 degrees. With 2286 m firing range, armor penetration was 127 mm. And from a distance of 457, a tank could pierce an armor plate with a thickness of 182 mm even at an angle of 60 degrees. No less important advantage of the “Royal Tiger” was the rate of shooting seven to eight shots per minute, three times the rate of firing of the Soviet heavy tank EC-2 (two or three shots per minute).

As it was established later, the armor-piercing 85-mm projectiles of the Soviet T-34-85 tank did not penetrate the front plates of the Royal Tiger's hull and did not produce any structural damage even from the 300 distance. The tests showed that the fire in the side and the iron tower Monster armor-piercing shells were effective only in 85-mm domestic and 76-mm American guns from a distance of no more than 800 m. Domestic guns ZIS-3 and F-34 (76 mm) did not "take" a tank in the "forehead" and " side". From all this it can be seen what kind of powerful and formidable vehicle our tankers had to face.

Other technical innovations implemented in the newest tank were also interesting. In particular, the “Royal Tiger” had a monocular telescopic sight with variable magnification. The articulation of the sight ensured the freedom of movement of the objective part together with the twin installation of the gun and the machine gun over the entire range of the vertical angle of attack. The rotation of the tower was carried out using a hydraulic swivel mechanism. The tank was equipped with a unique automatic fire extinguishing system. Starting with the 51 machine, a new Henschel type tower was installed on the tank, in which an air compressor was installed in the fighting compartment under the gunner’s seat to blow the cannon after each shot. The air flow blew the powder gases from the charging chamber and prevented them from entering the combat compartment. All these innovations on Soviet tanks will appear only after the war.

DOWNLOAD END

Avoiding the bombing aviation Allies, the Royal Tigers battalion arrived on August 9, 1944 at the Konetspol railway station. During the 50-kilometer march, the battalion suffered the first losses in equipment - a third of the three dozen vehicles remained on the road due to a transmission failure.

The 16 Panzer Division, having formed two battle groups based on the 64 and 79 Grenadier Regiments, on August 10 marched through Pinchuv in the direction of Khmilnyk. August 11 met with the vanguard of our 95 Guards Rifle Division in the Khmelnik – Szydlow Highway. The detachment in the rifle battalion of the 290 Guards Rifle Regiment, reinforced by an artillery battalion, put up fierce resistance, forcing the enemy to turn into battle order ahead of time. The Soviet command immediately took advantage of this delay by transferring two fighter anti-tank artillery regiments to the breakthrough site, which greatly strengthened the thin defensive line of the 112 division. The bridgehead by this time was a rough, half-ring resting on the Vistula River.

Units of our 6 Guards Tank Corps operating in the area, began to quickly transfer their parts to the threatened direction. As a result of rearrangement of Germans opposed 43 the T-34, including nine T-34-76 53-th Guards Tank Brigade, nine T-34-76 and 10 tanks T-34-85 52-th Guards Tank Brigade, 11 tanks T-34-76 and four T-34-85 51-th Guards Tank Brigade. Staszów also had 12 heavy tanks IS integrated into the 71 heavy tank regiment.

The units of the 53 of the Guards Tank Brigade were on the edge of the German strike. The problem for the command of the brigade was the inability to open shelters for vehicles due to loose soil. However, the commanders took note that the terrain is difficult for enemy tanks. In previous battles for Szydłów and Oglendów, in the same conditions, the Panthers stalled. The Soviet troops then managed to inflict serious damage on the enemy. Based on this, the command of the tank brigade concluded that the Germans would not repeat the mistakes a second time and would not go through the sandy fields, but would try to circumvent the brigade’s positions on the flanks.

Before the front of the second tank battalion of Major Korobov, the terrain was clearly visible. On the right flank there was a deep and wide beam, along which a road ran from Ogleduv to Staszów to the rear of our troops. The road stretched along a beam could not help but attract the attention of the Nazis. To cover this road at the exit, two T-34 tanks of the third tank battalion were set in ambush from the girder on the slopes of a nameless height. A part of the tanks was camouflaged at the exit of the beam in a pile of straw on the field. The “thirty-four” junior lieutenant Oskin stood closest to the exit from the beam. He received an order without a fire command not to open.


The largest tank of Nazi Germany, the Royal Tiger, could not resist the mastery of Soviet soldiers.


On the night of August 13, an sergeant-major from the 501 separate battalion of heavy tanks was captured in the Šidlów area. During interrogation, he showed that before the Soviet troops there was the 501 battalion, consisting of three companies and a supply company, consisting of 40 tanks, 20 of which are “Panthers” and 20 - T-IVH. At the same time, the sergeant major deliberately concealed the presence of the newest Royal Tiger tanks in the division.

During the night of August 12, an increasing tank rumble from the depths of the German positions began to be heard. Before dawn, the commander of the 53 Guards Tank Brigade returned from headquarters to his tank, which served as an observation point and was in combat formations of the first tank battalion. In the morning, due to heavy fog from the NP brigade, nothing was visible, silence was interrupted by the growing rumble of tank engines. Junkers flying in the air, flying on Staszów, German artillery earned. But German intelligence could not open the brigade's battle formations, and the enemy shells were torn far behind the positions.

From the beam emerged the first, slowly creeping, the monstrous size of the tank. He crawled on the rise in spurts, skidding in the sand. Kombrig ordered not to rush - beat with 400 meters. From the beam came the second and third cars. While the third tank came out, the first one had already passed the ambush. Junior Lieutenant Oskin, whose tank was disguised in a hay pile, opened fire. Kombrig clearly saw through binoculars how black holes appeared in the right sides of enemy tanks. The first tank broke out, the third tank turned to Oskin, but was hit by a caterpillar and stopped, it was finished off. Kombrig ordered everyone to open fire. Immediately hit three dozen trunks. Howitzer battalions covered the beam with hinged fire. Yu-87 and Messerschmites appeared, but they were immediately attacked and driven away by our fighters.

By the end of the day, the 53-I Guards Tank Brigade took up 300 defenses meters east of the village of Oglendów in readiness for an attack on Szydlow. Two tanks of the third battalion with a company of machine gunners attacked the village, which by eight o'clock in the morning managed to completely clear the enemy. Among the trophies taken in the village were the German wonder tanks. It was here that it turned out that the brigade had to fight with the newest German tanks (there was no time to figure out the morning, and the first burning tanks were called "Panthers"). In just three days of fighting from 11 to 13 in August, in the area of ​​the town of Staszów, the troops of the 6 tank corps captured and destroyed the 13 of the newest "Royal Tigers". In addition, 11 T-IV and T-V Panther were hit.

The success was impressive, the units of the 6 Guards Tank Corps did not lose a single tank. The crew of junior lieutenant Oskin burned three "Royal Tiger" and one knocked out. Alexander Petrovich himself was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union, the commander of the gun Abubakir Mirkhaydarov - the Order of Lenin, and the rest of the crew were awarded medals.

FIGHT IN THE GASTER WADI SALUKI

After 62 of the year, 12 of August of 2006 of the year, the newest at that time Israeli tank Merkava McNUMX turned out to be bits of the old Soviet Malyutka and RPG-4.

Mc4 - the first tank, built using digital technology. The tank was the national pride of Israel. Private Israeli firms and state-owned enterprises produced 72% components, and only 28% components were imported. The most sophisticated electron-optical systems were supplemented with ordinary sights and observation devices. For the tank commander there was no need to visually observe the enemy in order to know where he is. The whole situation in real time was displayed on color displays. The tank commander and gunner, if necessary, could conduct observations through each other's sights. The MK4 was equipped with four video cameras that allow the driver to monitor around the car. The image from the cameras was transmitted to the display of the driver both at day time and at night.

The combat information system of the tank platoon Mk4 gave a better situational understanding of what is happening on the battlefield. Each crew member had information about the terrain, the location of his car and the neighbors' cars, as well as the location of the enemy. The combat information system made it possible to record all the data, including the image. These data could then be copied to assess the activities of the crew and the commander or used for training.

The mass of the car is 65 tons (according to unofficial data, the mass of the car approached 70 tons). Crew - four people. The height of the commander's turret - 2,8 m. The maximum speed of the chassis - 65 km / h, power reserve - 500 km. Engine power - 1500 HP

The tank was armed with a 120-mm cannon, a launcher for firing an LAHAT ATGM, two 7,62-mm machine guns, one 60-mm mortar. The power plant was controlled by a computer, which also provided information to the driver, and was combined with a new automatic transmission, providing five gears to move forward. The exhaust port was significantly larger than on earlier models, and had a different design. This was done to reduce the thermal signature of the tank. In addition, an attempt was made to reject the visible contour of the exhaust gases away from the cloud of dust emitted from under the tracks of the tank. This was done due to the fact that most thermal imagers could not detect the thermal contour of exhaust gases formed only by gases alone, and only detected targets with a wavelength of 8 – 14 μm. However, thermal imagers clearly see the contour of the exhaust gases when mixed with dust or other particles.

The operation against Hezbollah began in June 2006, when more than the IDF's 400 tanks invaded Lebanese territory with the task of destroying the armed units of the Allah party leading to the shelling of Israel. As a result, even judging by the statements of the Israeli and Western media, the IDF, having absolute superiority in aviation, UAV, artillery, tanks, RTR, EW, night vision devices, lost a large number of armored vehicles.

"VAMPIRES" AGAINST "THE MERKAVY"

The ground formations of the Israeli army were not ready to fight an enemy well-trained and prepared for such a war, the main difficulty for Israeli soldiers was related to the tactics of Hezbollah’s fighters, which were based on sudden strikes with powerful weapons from maximum ranges, as well as fire ambush. The classic illustration of Hezbollah’s described tactics was the battle of Wadi Saluki, which actually happened on the eve of the end of the Israeli-Lebanese war. In this battle, the IDF suffered the greatest losses during the 401 brigade offensive, equipped with Merkava Mk4 tanks, across the Saluki river in the direction of the village of Randuria. Of the 24, the 11 tanks that participated in the attack were hit by anti-tank missiles. The Israeli media immediately began to claim that they were amazed by the newest Russian ATGM “Cornet” and the RPG-29 “Vampire”.

In my opinion, the great losses of the IDF were a result of Israel’s underestimation of the professional training of Hezbollah’s fighters. Advertised Israeli intelligence failed to timely uncover the enemy. The result was an armed confrontation between the high-tech IDF and well-trained troops.

By invading Lebanon, the IDF hoped to wage war against savages armed with Kalashnikovs and rush to Allah Akbar! Screaming, and met a well-armed, trained, strong-willed, trained army aimed at protecting their land. Hezbollah, without having the latest EW complexes, communications, aviation, artillery and tanks, Israel’s armored fist posed a new tactic against the high-tech army.

In the mountainous and wooded area of ​​Lebanon, Hezbollah prepared in advance well-disguised and sheltered from all types and means of reconnaissance strongholds, minefields and land mines, fire bags, shot down landmarks. Knowing the advantage of the IDF in the EW and RTR means, he refused to use electronic means of communication, switching to a wired connection. In addition, he put messengers messengers on motorcycles and bicycles. Small mobile groups of fighters armed with obsolete ATGMs and RPGs covered the entire territory of Lebanon, where Israeli troops were expected, starting from the Israeli border to the most extreme point of invasion.

In the mountainous areas there are not so many roads for movement, therefore it was not difficult to arrange a large number of ambushes. It should be noted good equipment fighters Hezbollah. They abandoned the Kalashnikov assault rifle in favor of the M-4 and M-16, while having a large number of night and thermal sights. Their ability to use camouflage tools, perfected in numerous exercises, also deserves high praise. The equipment, fire and tactical training of the fighters turned out to be appropriate for the equipment and training of the IDF soldiers.

For example, according to some data, during the second Lebanon war, the Israelis used the latest Trophy active defense system in separate Merkava tanks, consisting of a radar system connected to four antennas located on the front and aft parts and sides of the platform, and providing protection in the 360 sector degrees, and two mechanisms for the destruction of flying weapons of destruction, located on each side of the platform.

The Hezbollah specialists opposed no less original tactics to the possibilities of this miracle of design: the Trophy was put out of action with concentrated fire from ordinary small arms and good old rocket launchers, after which even the outdated Malyutki successfully drilled the newest IDF technology miracle.
Author:
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/
224 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 27 July 2013 08: 03
    -10 qualifying.
    So what? Tie Valuev - and even a goner will "trim" him. The only problem is how to tie Valuev? Therefore, the associated Valuev is a very rare, I would even say, an exceptional phenomenon. In other cases, the goner does not shine ...
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 27 July 2013 08: 50
      24
      I won’t say anything for Kolya Valuev, because I’m not familiar with him, but it’s better not to go to any harlems where Rembam Chaknorisovich Vandam, Dzhemsambond and other superheroes walk around any harlems, where people are accustomed to street fights of cheating, they taunt you very badly.
    2. fennekRUS
      fennekRUS 27 July 2013 09: 06
      18
      The only problem is how to tie Valuev? - Behind, a piece of pipe along the back of the head. Or do you propose a tank to tank, to produce a kilometer per kilometer on the field in the conditions of military operations? wink
      1. bazilio
        bazilio 27 July 2013 09: 28
        31
        Quote: fennekRUS
        So what? Tie Valuev - and even a goner will "trim" him.

        Or break into the barracks where the tankers sleep, shoot them with a gun. Everything, there are no tankers, the tank is neutralized. hence the gun is a good PT weapon)))
        However, I think the author wanted to say something else - the technology is good, but you can’t forget about tactics, and in any case do not forget about intelligence.
      2. Sirocco
        Sirocco 27 July 2013 15: 28
        19
        Quote: fennekRUS
        The only problem is how to tie Valuev?

        Lord talk is not about that. Israel, like the United States, received a worthy rebuff not from those from whom it was counting, but the article clearly states
        Invading Lebanon, the IDF hoped to wage war against savages armed with Kalashnikovs and rushing into the attack with the cries of “Allah Akbar!”, And met a well-armed, trained, strong-spirited, trained army,
        And at the expense of everything invincible, and invulnerable, I will say in Russian, for every sly ass, there’s always a dildo with a screw. Who are the USA end partners fighting with? Well, obviously not with an equal competitor. And this is not war, but piracy of the state headquarters, moreover, legalized.
    3. Genady1976
      Genady1976 27 July 2013 15: 55
      +6
      A large cupboard LOUDERS falls repeat
    4. tilovaykrisa
      tilovaykrisa 28 July 2013 13: 53
      -3
      A gait about him will simply break his arms and legs.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  2. il grand casino
    il grand casino 27 July 2013 08: 03
    +4
    By the way, the network featured photos of the "Cornets" captured in Lebanon. And I don’t know what was hit, I wasn’t there))
  3. ruslan207
    ruslan207 27 July 2013 08: 44
    14
    Any tank can be knocked out
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. ruslan207
    ruslan207 27 July 2013 08: 48
    -4
    lacking the latest electronic warfare systems, communications, aviation, artillery and tanks, Israel opposed the armored fist of Israel with a new tactic to combat the hi-tech hezbol army.
  6. Professor
    Professor 27 July 2013 09: 50
    -18 qualifying.
    After 62 of the year, 12 of August of 2006 of the year, the newest at that time Israeli tank Merkava McNUMX turned out to be bits of the old Soviet Malyutka and RPG-4.

    Lie. negative

    As a result, even judging by the statements of Israeli and Western media, the IDF, having absolute superiority in aviation, UAVs, artillery, tanks, RTR, electronic warfare, night vision devices, lost a large amount of armored vehicles.

    Not big, but huge. wassat Something the author kept silent about specific numbers ...

    Invading Lebanon, the IDF hoped to wage war against savages armed with Kalashnikovs and rushing into the attack with the cries of “Allah Akbar!”, And met a well-armed, trained, strong-willed, trained army aimed at protecting its land.

    The author participated in meetings of the General Staff and knows what they expected there?

    Hezbollah, lacking the latest electronic warfare systems, communications, aviation, artillery and tanks, opposed Israel’s armored fist with a new tactic for combating a high-tech army.

    You are our expert, what was new about her? How did it differ from the tactics of the 1982 year? The use of civilians and civilian infrastructure as a cover, during the day by a plowman, at night by a majahid, etc. It turns out hezbollah invented a bicycle.

    For example, according to some reports, during the second Lebanon war, the Israelis used the latest Trophy active defense system on separate Merkava tanks,

    Well this is all nonsense. It would not hurt the author to take an interest in the chronology of the development and production of Trophy.

    Administration, for what purpose do you publish such scribbles? request
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 27 July 2013 09: 58
      14
      Quote: Professor

      For example, according to some reports, during the second Lebanon war, the Israelis used the latest Trophy active defense system on separate Merkava tanks,

      Well this is all nonsense. It would not hurt the author to take an interest in the chronology of the development and production of Trophy.


      This is yes. In addition, it is very inconvenient to "disable small arms with concentrated fire" something that has not yet been installed on tanks.
      1. Professor
        Professor 27 July 2013 10: 07
        -1
        Quote: Spade
        This is yes. In addition, it is very inconvenient to "disable small arms with concentrated fire" something that has not yet been installed on tanks.

        Moreover, Hezbollah avoided contact with Israeli forces at a "small arms fire" range. They tried to hit ATGMs at their maximum range (hence the effectiveness of the hit is weak), land mines, artillery and thousands of missiles of various ranges. hi
        1. Varnaga
          Varnaga 27 July 2013 10: 40
          +2
          Is there any statistics on IDF losses in tanks during this conflict?
          1. Professor
            Professor 27 July 2013 13: 15
            -3
            Quote: Varnaga
            Is there any statistics on IDF losses in tanks during this conflict?

            Loss of armored vehicles in the Second Lebanon War
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 25
            -5
            It is worth adding that 16 tanks were evacuated to the rear for repair. According to the report of the Major-General of the reserve of Ben-Israel, compiled by him for the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzelia, the number of dead tankers (per tank) decreased sharply - compared to previous wars. In 1973 there were 2 of them, this one - 1. Moreover, we are talking about tanks where penetration was recorded. In general, the repair service worked effectively - the tanks quickly returned to service.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. mogus
            mogus 27 July 2013 13: 27
            +5
            You should move a pinocchio
            according to your cumpol
            - which missile defense can withstand such a massive blow?
            1. svp67
              svp67 28 July 2013 13: 58
              +3
              Quote: mogus
              - which missile defense can withstand such a massive blow?
              One problem with the "TOS" - the firing range is too small, they must be used carefully, otherwise they will be burned even before they reach firing positions ...
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 26
            -9
            Oi-wei, what a spread out bazaar. And now - something concrete, smart, and in Russian.
            1. Denis
              Denis 28 July 2013 01: 49
              -3
              Quote: Pimply
              Oi-wei, what a spread out bazaar.
              Is there a lot of him here?
              and Russian language
              It is him
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 28 July 2013 01: 53
                -6
                You want to say, in the post of Mr. ratuld - not enough?
        3. tilovaykrisa
          tilovaykrisa 28 July 2013 13: 55
          +1
          And rightly so, at a distance of defeating small arms you covered them with artillery fire and air strikes, so they did everything reasonably.
          1. svp67
            svp67 28 July 2013 14: 26
            +1
            Quote: tilovaykrisa
            And rightly so, at a distance of defeating small arms you covered them with artillery fire and air strikes, so they did everything reasonably.
            And to this point - artillery and aviation are powerless? Bullshit ... They therefore do not cross the line of effective fire of small arms because they have no chance of such a clash ...
    2. bazilio
      bazilio 27 July 2013 11: 26
      +8
      Quote: Professor
      Administration, for what purpose do you publish such scribbles?

      I think that such issues would not arise, the administration will need to arrange debates and submit a draft article for discussion, and only then publish it. In addition, imagine that this article would be checked for the reliability of these facts, how much material and from which sources you need to sort out. and this is only for one article, and a lot of them are published per day (17 articles were posted on the site today). The administration simply does not have enough hands.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 27
        -10 qualifying.
        I'm more interested in why articles are published that glorify terrorist organizations - such as Gromova’s article on Hezbollah.
        1. beard999
          beard999 28 July 2013 15: 55
          15
          Quote: Pimply
          why are articles published glorifying terrorist organizations

          What surprises you, I do not understand. You are on a Russian resource, and in Russia, Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization. It is not recognized as such and the UN. Hezbollah is Lebanon's legitimate political force, widely represented in a legitimately elected parliament. This is understood even in the EU, which did not fully attribute Hezbollah to terrorist organizations, but dismissed it as a “military wing” http://ria.ru/world/20130722/951416863.html.
          The site administration is fully entitled to such publications. But any claims of Israeli citizens in this regard, look completely inappropriate. There is a good Russian proverb: “They don’t go to someone else’s monastery with their charter!”
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 08
            -7
            Well, for starters, I’m also a citizen of the Russian Federation and I and my company pay taxes here.
            Secondly, right now in a policy of double standards - in the very one in which you like to blame others. There are no good terrorists and no bad ones. For me, Baruch Goldstein is equal to Imad Mguniy, but it seems to you that you don’t care that the terrorist is a terrorist - if only the necessary label hangs.
            Most of the Sunni radical organizations that are now howling in Syria are also not on the Russian lists of terrorist organizations. Hamas is not included there either. Does that make them all non-terrorists? No. Do you need to chant them? Well, judging by your beliefs, yes.
            As I understand it, you are now engaged in the justification of terrorism, which means - complicity in it?
            1. beard999
              beard999 28 July 2013 19: 33
              +8
              Quote: Pimply
              I am also a citizen of the Russian Federation and I and my company pay taxes here

              So what? I repeat once again - you are writing on a RUSSIAN resource. And he submits exclusively to Russian law. Are you a citizen of Israel residing in Russian laws? Well, write on the crow's bark, and do not try the Israeli propaganda views to impose the administration of the site and the Russian participants in the discussion.
              Quote: Pimply
              into a policy of double standards - the very one in which you like to blame others

              Do you personally address this reproach to me? If so, then again you are shamelessly lying. I have never “blamed anyone”.
              Quote: Pimply
              There are no good terrorists and bad

              You tell this to your overseas patrons, otherwise they probably don’t know ...
              But in general, in principle, you are right. Therefore, when Israel engages in terrorism on a state scale, it is absolutely no different from Al-Qaeda. You don’t have to go far for examples. Remember the July 2006 war. Let's say Hezbollah, you think the terrorists, but why did you bomb all of Lebanon, including civilian infrastructure? After all, Hezbollah launchers were located in the 25 km zone to Litani, but Israel delivered strikes throughout the territory where Hezbollah was not around. As a result, you killed more civilians than Hezbollah fighters. Absolutely terrorist methods. If you suddenly forgot, I remind you that Hezbollah arose in 1982 in response to the Israeli occupation of part of Lebanon, the IDF blockade of Beirut, and the massacre of the Sabre and Chatilla refugee camps by Christian phalangists who were allies of Israel.
              Quote: Pimply
              Are you now working to justify terrorism, which means complicity with it?

              Yes, call it what you want. I do not care. All your efforts to impose an Israeli point of view on Topvar are absolutely hopeless. No one here will be led to Israeli propaganda slogans. And do not hope. Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization and articles devoted to it are absolutely legal.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 28 July 2013 20: 16
                -5
                Quote: beard999
                Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization

                And how many of our citizens should she kill in order to be recognized as such?
                1. beard999
                  beard999 28 July 2013 22: 30
                  +5
                  Quote: Spade
                  And how many of our citizens should she kill in order to be recognized as such?

                  Do you think organizations belong to terrorist organizations by the number of “killed citizens”? In international politics, this is not practiced. Israel has started the next negotiations with the PLO. So the PLO / Fatah killed Israeli citizens probably more than members of Hezbollah. And as you know, no one recognizes the PLO as terrorists. The same Abbas is accused of financing the attacks, incl. Munich. And nothing, smiling, American presidents and Israeli prime ministers shake hands with him ... The number of Americans killed by the Taliban in Afghanistan goes to thousands. Nevertheless, the Americans, the Afghan Taliban, have still not been attributed to a terrorist organization.
                  If you suddenly do not know, then in Russia there is Federal Law No. 35 of March 6, 2006, which defines a terrorist organization. It says that such organizations include “goals or actions that are aimed at the promotion, justification and support of terrorism”. Hezbollah was not ranked as such either under the Soviet regime, under Andropov and Chernenko, or in the democratic frenzy of the late 80s and 90s. under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, nor under the current government. Actually, I see no reason for speculation on this issue.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 28 July 2013 22: 40
                    0
                    Quote: beard999
                    Do you think organizations belong to terrorist organizations by the number of “killed citizens”? In international politics, this is not practiced.

                    That is, they can continue to kill Russian citizens quite safely and without consequences. All kinds of diplomats. Indeed, we have a lot of people, let them have fun.
                    1. beard999
                      beard999 29 July 2013 16: 54
                      +1
                      Quote: Spade
                      All kinds of diplomats. Indeed, we have a lot of people, let them have fun.

                      Do you propose recognizing Hezbollah as a terrorist organization for one single episode of 30 years ago with Katkov, in which one scumbag Imad Mugniya is to blame, and who has already been sent to the other world? Are you sure that Hyena was a member of Hezbollah at that time? If you are suddenly not in the know, then in the 80s he was a member of the PLO, and when he definitely went to Hezbollah is not known. And the fact that Hezbollah is actively fighting in Syria (which, incidentally, is supported by Russia) against Jabat al-Nusra, which is a branch of Al-Qaeda, do you not take into account? You remembered about the “people”, but don’t think that in the event of the victory of those who are now supported by the United States in Syria, all these scumbags will end up in our North Caucasus? The Americans will send them to jihad with pleasure - closer to us, and away from their ally Israel. Few two Chechen companies with thousands of dead?
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 21
                        -1
                        Quote: beard999
                        Are you sure that Hyena was a member of Hezbollah at that time?

                        I'm sure. He has been a member of Hezbollah since 1984.
                        There are confirmed terrorist acts committed by Hezbollah against Lebanese Christians.
                  2. Pimply
                    Pimply 28 July 2013 23: 09
                    -1
                    Hamas, Fatah, and dozens of organizations that acted by terrorist methods did not rank there. AND? Does this give the right to chant terrorism?
                    1. beard999
                      beard999 29 July 2013 16: 58
                      +3
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Does this give the right to chant terrorism?

                      I would like to ask you exactly who and where exactly, terrorism is singing on topvar? But I understand that the question is rhetorical, and there will be no substantive answer on your part. Unfortunately, drafts and lies, your favorite style of discussion ...
                      Therefore, I will answer this way. You’re “singing” your native IDF. This is not forbidden, right? Well, Hezbollah is not a banned organization. What do you still not understand?
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 22
                        -2
                        Elena Gromova in an article on Hezbollah and you in your comments. Yes - minus is not from me.
              2. Rumata
                Rumata 28 July 2013 20: 48
                -3
                Quote: beard999
                I repeat once again - you are writing on a RUSSIAN resource. And he submits exclusively to Russian law.

                This is what kind of Makar? If the site is .ru, then is it subject to the laws of the Russian Federation? And if in fact the hosting is German and the site is physically there, then how? Or the fact that they communicate on the site in RUSSIAN made it RUSSIAN?
                1. beard999
                  beard999 28 July 2013 22: 31
                  +6
                  Quote: Rumata
                  This is what kind of Makar?

                  Yes, with the fact that the site is “a collection of electronic documents (files) of a private person or organization in a computer network, united under one address (domain name or IP address)”. The site was created and belongs to citizens of the Russian Federation who are in the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. And the location of the site on any server, this position does not change at all.
                  1. Rumata
                    Rumata 28 July 2013 22: 59
                    -6
                    Quote: beard999
                    Site created and owned by citizens of the Russian Federation

                    How do you know who legally owns the site? Maybe it belongs to someone from Ukraine or the same Germany, have you personally seen the details of the one who pays for the domain?
                    1. beard999
                      beard999 29 July 2013 16: 59
                      +2
                      Quote: Rumata
                      Who owns the site legally?

                      And you do not guess. You directly ask a question to any admin (there are four of them). And they will explain to you who owns the site and who pays money to whom.
              3. Kapdva
                Kapdva 30 July 2013 04: 34
                +1
                Very worthy answer!
              4. Kapdva
                Kapdva 30 July 2013 04: 35
                0
                Worthy answer!
            2. mehmeh
              mehmeh 8 December 2014 20: 06
              0
              Enough about the terrorists to sing. Claims to Iran. to Saud there to the Americans. But there wasn’t to Russia. Would Soviet RPGs be Korean or Chinese or dill. . selling trunks around the world themselves must understand.
        2. velikoros-xnumx
          velikoros-xnumx 31 July 2013 16: 34
          0
          I'm more interested in why articles are published that glorify terrorist organizations - such as Gromova’s article on Hezbollah.

          To whom and terrorist, and to whom not.
          What is the main terrorist organization on the planet? ... right - NATO (Нnational Аamerican Тterrorist Оorganization)
    3. ruslan207
      ruslan207 27 July 2013 12: 59
      11
      Professors - you remind me of Essef Dan who broadcasts through the pages of history and so he has David Markish on his programs, Rezun aka "Suvorov" and everyone is singing to one note for 82 years the Arabs lost 50 minutes-23 Israel, not one allegedly there is no evidence this is nonsense, war does not happen without losses Israel lost a lot in that war according to the American embassy, ​​and they have facts, just like Russia lost them in the Caucasus
      1. Professor
        Professor 27 July 2013 13: 14
        -12 qualifying.
        Quote: ruslan207
        Professors - you remind me of Yesef Dan

        We did not go over to "you" and did not graze geese in the same meadow.

        Quote: ruslan207
        Israel lost a lot in that war according to the American embassy, ​​and they have facts

        "facts" in the studio.
        1. ruslan207
          ruslan207 27 July 2013 14: 58
          +6
          Professor well, you are already minus me
          1. Professor
            Professor 27 July 2013 15: 09
            -5
            Quote: ruslan207
            Professor well, you are already minus me

            Great honor. I am waiting for "facts" from the American embassy.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 29
        -5
        I minusanul. For rudeness in conversation. Please try to lead a discussion - links to the studio.
        1. ratuld
          ratuld 28 July 2013 11: 23
          0
          Well, what is going on here ??
          I found myself a "professor"
          This professor sits on the welfare and receives for this writing on the program Mosgaz.
          challenge him to a duel — on the oars — and work his ribs — whatever it is!
          I can’t ......
          .... not by rank. laughing
    4. velikoros-xnumx
      velikoros-xnumx 28 July 2013 15: 12
      +6
      Jews, like the Shashniki, have a bad habit of strongly adjusting the data on their losses and those of the enemy. In general, of course, this is a tradition of almost all armies, but in the United States and Israel this habit has taken on an exaggerated form (remember at least the operation in Grenada). Well, you, Mr. "Professor", should not giggle and humiliate the author of the article. Whether it will still be, until now you have dealt with poorly trained and armed Arab fighters, but in the near future the situation may change radically, given the tendency in many Arab states (first of all, of course, Iran and Syria) towards qualitative and quantitative rearmament. Frankly speaking, your business is a pipe, and a sewer pipe. You will find yourself in the dustbin of world history.
      1. Professor
        Professor 28 July 2013 15: 41
        -7
        Quote: velikoros-xnumx
        Well, you mister "professor" should not giggle and humiliate the author of the article.

        You are right here. Since he himself humiliated himself by ignorance of the material and a lie I can not humiliate him.

        Quote: velikoros-xnumx
        Whether it still will be, until now you were dealing with poorly trained and armed Arab fighters

        Learn the story of how the Arab armies were "poorly armed" and how the Soviet "advisers" fought them shoulder to shoulder.

        Quote: velikoros-xnumx
        You will find yourself in the dustbin of world history.

        The dog barks, the caravan goes.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 10
        -2
        Please provide evidence base for your statement.
  7. shinobi
    shinobi 27 July 2013 10: 55
    +9
    Any tank, no matter how cool it is, has a weak spot that has not changed since the appearance of the tank itself as such. Tracks. Actually, the tactics of the battle of an infantryman who does not have modern means of destruction with a tank have not changed since then. Damage the goose. This tank becomes useless, especially in conditions of mobile combat in rough terrain or in a city. An article from the category "let's stir up another sluggard, otherwise it's boring." negative
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 29
      0
      As a rule, a defeat in the caterpillar allows you to return the tank to operation within a few hours.
  8. The comment was deleted.
    1. ruslan207
      ruslan207 27 July 2013 15: 01
      +7
      Comrade choose expression
      1. ratuld
        ratuld 28 July 2013 11: 28
        -5
        This is me for the love of Jews.
        Wash out at each other all the pellets you measure.
        Which of the Hebrews is more Jewish.
        it’s funny for us.
        Bedouins Bedouins - and look !!!
        Someone’s tank was stolen from someone.
        Babos pump out amers.
        Your affairs are wonderful. Lord fellow
        1. il grand casino
          il grand casino 28 July 2013 11: 42
          +2
          Yes, your deeds are wonderful, Lord ... who in the whole world is just gone ...
          P.S. You would have learned to fold thought thought out.
  9. omsbon
    omsbon 27 July 2013 12: 36
    10
    Every poison has its own antidote!
    On the "technological" and cunning ass of the IDF, there is always a rusty Russian bolt!
    1. igor67
      igor67 27 July 2013 12: 42
      +4
      Quote: omsbon
      Every poison has its own antidote!
      On the "technological" and cunning ass of the IDF, there is always a rusty Russian bolt!

      No one doubts this, but tell me, only without any blah blah, if there were t90 in the same situation, didn’t they break? Only honestly
      1. ratuld
        ratuld 27 July 2013 14: 50
        +2
        Look how rusty 72 are fighting in Syria.
        And compare.
        IDF needs bells and whistles to maintain the trousers of the population.
        There, 50% are sitting on a mashkant.
        Industry needs to be loaded at least with something.
        The war needs soldiers.
        All the tricked Europe flew into the USSR - Jews at every forum were happy to post pictures of 41 years.
        True, never -45.
        This says a lot, for example, as "nuts" (t-34-76) - a poor gun of which from 500 meters sometimes did not get into a five-story building - they burned "all the bells and whistles" of super-tigers with a weapon that could break two of these "nuts" for flight.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 31
          -6
          How are they howling? They are actively blown up and destroyed. Which, in general, is logical for war - there are no invulnerable tanks.
      2. ratuld
        ratuld 27 July 2013 14: 57
        +5
        Bring your merkava ...
        let's hang out ...
        .... only the t-90 is not super duper at all ...
        We have no one to ponder.
        We live hard.
        The sky is looking at us.
        And the dead do not have shame ....
      3. datur
        datur 27 July 2013 16: 11
        +6
        [quote = igor67] [quote = omsbon]Every poison has its own antidote!
        On the "technological" and cunning ass of the IDF, there is always a rusty Russian bolt! [/ Quote]
        No one doubts this, but tell me, only without any blah blah, if there were t90 in the same situation, didn’t they break? Only honestly - honestly, but they would have struck !!!!! yes There are no unkillable tanks (except for American Hollywood) !!! wassat
      4. omsbon
        omsbon 27 July 2013 17: 04
        +5
        Quote: igor67
        tell me, only without any blah blah, if in the same situation there were t90, then didn’t break? Only honestly

        Dear Igor!
        As you know, my honest answer lies in the plane - why do you have spies, and we have nice scouts!
      5. Shumka
        Shumka 28 July 2013 22: 31
        +2
        "If the T-90 was in the same place"
        Igor, that’s just the point, it would be, they recognized and began to think and not to drive excuses.
        As an example, we all remember the loss of 080808 and do not blame everything on the US Israel and "dill", we recognize and draw conclusions. And some of the Formuchans are whining to the site admins.
  10. Rumata
    Rumata 27 July 2013 12: 47
    +4
    The author didn’t understand a bit, the Cornets were not in Saluki or were they not at all? It’s just that I personally saw the Cornets in Lebanon, and if Hezbollah had them, why didn’t they be used in Wadi Saluki and how did the author know that they were not there?

    Everything written about Trophy in Lebanon from the category of fantasies ...
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 32
      -5
      The author is a storyteller. He would have to work with the Brothers Grim.
      1. phantom359
        phantom359 27 July 2013 23: 17
        +3
        Quote: Pimply
        The author is a storyteller. He would have to work with the Brothers Grim.

        Storytellers are Golda Mayir and Mordechai Hot with Benjamin Pelling. Who does not know - the commander in chief of the Israeli Air Force at 73m. For ordinary pilots I will not say anything, a hard case.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 28 July 2013 00: 18
          -7
          Quote: phantom359
          Storytellers are Golda Mayir and Mordechai Hot with Benjamin Pelling. Who does not know - the commander in chief of the Israeli Air Force at 73m. For ordinary pilots I will not say anything, a hard case.

          Examples, please?
          1. phantom359
            phantom359 28 July 2013 23: 17
            +4
            Quote: Pimply
            Quote: phantom359
            Storytellers are Golda Mayir and Mordechai Hot with Benjamin Pelling. Who does not know - the commander in chief of the Israeli Air Force at 73m. For ordinary pilots I will not say anything, a hard case.

            Examples, please?

            300 downed Arabs with 5 (five !!!) of their lost. Enough? Then, under the pressure of the Americans, they corrected a little. The Americans said that since you are fighting so well, you do not need help. Well, about 45 downed MiGs F16mi with a zero score, a separate discussion. Only IDF could come up with this.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 06
              -3
              Quote: phantom359
              300 downed Arabs with 5 (five !!!) of their lost. Enough? Then, under the pressure of the Americans, they corrected a little.

              Do you know what fascinates you? This is complete ignorance. After all, you don’t know how the battles went, nor what evidence is there, nor that Israel used UAVs, Avaxs, had planes a generation higher than enemy planes. No, it's all past you. Like real numbers. I wonder where you dug three hundred?

              I recommend you read one of the serious authors. For example, Granovsky.
              http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/lebanon-losses.htm
              1. phantom359
                phantom359 29 July 2013 22: 27
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                Quote: phantom359
                300 downed Arabs with 5 (five !!!) of their lost. Enough? Then, under the pressure of the Americans, they corrected a little.

                Do you know what fascinates you? This is complete ignorance. After all, you don’t know how the battles went, nor what evidence is there, nor that Israel used UAVs, Avaxs, had planes a generation higher than enemy planes. No, it's all past you. Like real numbers. I wonder where you dug three hundred?

                I recommend you read one of the serious authors. For example, Granovsky.
                http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/lebanon-losses.htm

                Well, of course, where am I to you. Benya Pelled stated three hundred, because hel haavir, the most haaviri in the world. You demand evidence all the time (to the studio), when you bring it to you - look for any discrepancy and call it a lie, any desire to prove something disappears, although you yourself are full of inconsistencies. Kindly, we will not roll the barrel at each other. Please show the wreckage of the 45 MiGs of the downed F16. Most should have fallen in your territory; your media would not have missed this.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 24
                  -5
                  Nevertheless, you squeamishly continue to shine illiteracy. Yes, you are far from me, sorry. You do not know how to work with documents.
                  1. phantom359
                    phantom359 30 July 2013 23: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Nevertheless, you squeamishly continue to shine illiteracy. Yes, you are far from me, sorry. You do not know how to work with documents.

                    very funny. And with what documents? And where are the downed MiGs? Or are your documents silent about this?
                  2. velikoros-xnumx
                    velikoros-xnumx 31 July 2013 16: 30
                    +1
                    Quote: Pimply
                    You are far from me, sorry. You do not know how to work with documents.


                    Yes, where are we sinners with our three convolutions to the inhabitants of the promised land.
                    Such a statement on your part is at least immodest, and in my opinion defiant. For such words you can be beaten in the face.
                    1. Rumata
                      Rumata 31 July 2013 20: 35
                      -5
                      Quote: velikoros-xnumx
                      But where are we sinners with our three convolutions to the inhabitants of the promised land

                      Judging by your comments, more than three convolutions do not threaten you, relax ...
              2. phantom359
                phantom359 29 July 2013 22: 29
                +2
                Oh, I almost forgot, but what made Mr. Granovsky famous, what became a serious source?))
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 25
                  -5
                  Mr. Granovsky substantiates his theories, parses, provides links to information sources, and is not afraid to take into account all losses. In addition, he works in several languages, and most of the authors in Russian did not master not only Hebrew or Arabic, but also English.
                  1. phantom359
                    phantom359 30 July 2013 23: 27
                    +2
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Mr. Granovsky substantiates his theories, parses, provides links to information sources, and is not afraid to take into account all losses. In addition, he works in several languages, and most of the authors in Russian did not master not only Hebrew or Arabic, but also English.

                    it absolutely does not mean anything. if he knows how to communicate in several languages, does not mean that he objectively provides information.
                2. Kapdva
                  Kapdva 30 July 2013 05: 08
                  0
                  Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  11. The comment was deleted.
    1. datur
      datur 27 July 2013 16: 14
      +2
      [quote = Sanok8711] A Jew named Professor, a noble Troll, an expert on everything ... usually requires facts .. that's just the trouble, when he is poked in the face he ignores them, and when he is asked to present the facts to his torii he generally stops writing, verified 100% - but no, he’s just a 100% Israeli patriot and that’s all !! wink
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 32
      -1
      So go ahead, bring the facts. Well, such that he shut up.
    3. Drummer
      Drummer 27 July 2013 18: 31
      +4
      Something you can not see the facts. Are you afraid to frighten off professors?
  12. alone
    alone 27 July 2013 13: 58
    10
    Well, the trophy system was installed in the tanks of the defense army just after the war in Lebanon. before that they were not in the merkas.
  13. Genady1976
    Genady1976 27 July 2013 16: 00
    0
    Soviet light tank T-26
    1. datur
      datur 27 July 2013 16: 16
      -3
      [quote = Genady1976] Soviet light tank T-26- so what is the further development of the aglitsky wickers wikers?
    2. svp67
      svp67 28 July 2013 13: 22
      +1
      Quote: Genady1976
      Soviet light tank T-26
      In "nee" English "Vickers"
    3. svp67
      svp67 28 July 2013 13: 28
      -1
      Well, if you show it, maybe it:

      T28


      A better of modern

  14. Genady1976
    Genady1976 27 July 2013 16: 11
    +4
    --------------------------
  15. datur
    datur 27 July 2013 16: 22
    +8
    [quote = Genady1976] -T-34 AND MERCAVA-4-- TYPE THE BEST TANK OF 2-WORLD WAR, AND THE BEST TANK OF THE PRESENT? - OUR T-34 RECOGNIZED, AND ENEMIES AND ALLIES !!! And who recognized the advantage of the Israelis (well, except them) in the world?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 27 July 2013 16: 35
      -13 qualifying.
      Quote: datur
      And who recognized the advantage of the Israelis (well, except them) in the world?

      Reality. The advantage of the Israelis recognized reality.
      1. KuzmichDP
        KuzmichDP 27 July 2013 22: 41
        +4
        Quote: datur
        And who recognized the advantage of the Israelis (well, except them) in the world?
        Reality. The advantage of the Israelis recognized reality.

        And I thought ABSOLUTE, however ....
      2. phantom359
        phantom359 27 July 2013 23: 19
        +8
        Quote: Pimply
        Quote: datur
        And who recognized the advantage of the Israelis (well, except them) in the world?

        Reality. The advantage of the Israelis recognized reality.

        wow, much said. Zionists - broad-shouldered people, you can’t lure them with a meaty bosom.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 28 July 2013 00: 19
          -4
          Refute, please
      3. aleshka
        aleshka 28 July 2013 06: 19
        +5
        you Jews always have their own reality, pseudo-reality! I'm not a nationalist, but how in life I will face your countrymen, then I get nauseous !!!
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 12
          -4
          That's right, you are not a nationalist. Judging by the words, you are a Nazi, this is worse.
          1. phantom359
            phantom359 28 July 2013 23: 37
            +3
            Quote: Pimply
            That's right, you are not a nationalist. Judging by the words, you are a Nazi, this is worse.

            The Zionist, you know, is also not a cake.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 13
              -4
              Nazi is worse. Zionism does not imply hatred of anyone at its core.
              1. phantom359
                phantom359 29 July 2013 22: 17
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                Nazi is worse. Zionism does not imply hatred of anyone at its core.

                As for Nazism, I agree - a vile thing. As for Zionism, better tell the women children and the elderly who died in Sabra and Shatil, as well as how the figures from the Irgun fought and with whom in 48. Destroy the village just like that, from fierce hatred. There were women among the militants. Damn, the real mother and the keeper of the hearth.)
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 28
                  0
                  Once again - indicate exactly where in the ideology of Zionism says something about hatred of a particular culture. Plz, I'm really looking forward.

                  That is, particular cases of the murder of Muslims by Christians or Der Yasin, who has not yet received a full confirmation of the "peacefulness", are somehow inscribed in the ideology of Zionism?
                  1. phantom359
                    phantom359 30 July 2013 23: 33
                    +2
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Once again - indicate exactly where in the ideology of Zionism says something about hatred of a particular culture. Plz, I'm really looking forward.

                    That is, particular cases of the murder of Muslims by Christians or Der Yasin, who has not yet received a full confirmation of the "peacefulness", are somehow inscribed in the ideology of Zionism?

                    I will not say ideology. Mostly by deeds it is visible. The Nazis also concocted a very good ideology for their people, even to the point of mass psychoses it came down to it. And the very last stinky pimp was sure that he was doing a good job.
    2. alone
      alone 27 July 2013 21: 39
      +1
      you know, if merkava would be a bad tank, believe it simply would not be accepted into service !! Jews are too pragmatic, they are not used to paying twice))) no offense to the citizens of Israel))))
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. dustycat
    dustycat 27 July 2013 17: 04
    +2
    Both cases by proverb
    Without knowing the ford, do not pop into the water - the chickens will laugh.
    This is if in terms of tactics.
    As for whose will to win is stronger - whoever dared and ate, trampled the frightened chick.
  18. asbaev
    asbaev 27 July 2013 18: 07
    +3
    It is better to have both good equipment and excellent trained fighters.
  19. faraon
    faraon 27 July 2013 18: 37
    0
    I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.
    if about the vulnerability of tanks of different countries so let's discuss this topic, about the survivability and survival of crews so let's talk about it.
    And here the Merkava tanks made in Israel. We can cite the opposite examples as the Israelis in the old (Centurions) in smaller numbers. They won the tank battle of the Syrian army, which was armed with new and modern tanks at that time.
    A tank is a weapon that is good in the field and not at all intended for combat in densely built-up residential areas, as well as in places not designated by the landscape for them. So this comparison is also not a topic. Tanks burn all regardless of the country of manufacture, the question is different about the survivability of the car and crew, as well as the ability to quickly return it to service.
    1. Drummer
      Drummer 27 July 2013 18: 50
      -1
      Quote: faraon
      I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.

      About the eternal. Our hats are the most throwing hats in the world!
      1. phantom359
        phantom359 27 July 2013 23: 23
        +5
        Quote: Drummer
        Quote: faraon
        I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.

        About the eternal. Our hats are the most throwing hats in the world!

        well, let's say the Jews have articles that are much hazy. but the fact that the super merkave has filled the face with the old ATGM and RPG is a fact. Only some "researchers" are irritated by this fact.
        1. Drummer
          Drummer 28 July 2013 06: 27
          -1
          Once a fact - confirmation to the studio. How did you decide that the Merkava Mk4 was hit by old ATGMs and RPGs, and not modern ones? Did a Hezbollon friend tell you a secret?
          1. phantom359
            phantom359 28 July 2013 22: 56
            +2
            Quote: Drummer
            Once a fact - confirmation to the studio. How did you decide that the Merkava Mk4 was hit by old ATGMs and RPGs, and not modern ones? Did a Hezbollon friend tell you a secret?

            Yeah. How did you guess? Head. And what about - in the studio - from youngsters picked up? They have it fashionable.))
    2. Tihas
      Tihas 27 July 2013 22: 55
      +3
      Literally from the second sentence in the article:

      Two stories that the most advanced weapon in itself is no guarantee of victory in battle. When meeting with a tactically competent and morally stable opponent, it will be successfully destroyed.

      Both events occurred on the same day - August 12, but only with a difference of 60 years. In both cases, the newest tanks, which at that time were masterpieces of tank building, were beaten with older or theoretically unequal weapons.
    3. Vlad_Mir
      Vlad_Mir 28 July 2013 01: 10
      0
      Why worry so much? It’s as if you yourself were burning in a tank! No invincible tanks!
    4. Shumka
      Shumka 28 July 2013 22: 38
      0
      So the fact of the matter is that the conversation about skill and stuff and not about the fact that the puppers were knocked down, and some were carried away.
  20. faraon
    faraon 27 July 2013 18: 55
    0
    here I am about it if I understood you correctly.
    Quote: Drummer
    Quote: faraon
    I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.

    About the eternal. Our hats are the most throwing hats in the world!
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. Sheva777
    Sheva777 27 July 2013 19: 47
    +1
    It should be noted the good equipment of Hezbollah fighters. They abandoned the Kalashnikov assault rifle in favor of the M-4 and M-16


    I would not say that Kalash is worse
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 27 July 2013 19: 56
      +5
      Well, if the stamped Chinese clone of the Chinese is of the same quality ... then maybe worse
    2. smersh70
      smersh70 27 July 2013 22: 13
      +3
      Quote: Sheva777
      I would not say that Kalash is worse



      everyone knows that the M-16 is more accurate at long distances, its accuracy and range are also better ....... based on the fact that the Arabs did not engage in close combat, it means they took the M-16 into shelling ... ..the same in Iraq .... there are (c) the fathers of amers, where they carry M-ki in their hands, and on the shoulder is the famous Kalash !!!!!!!!
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 28 July 2013 13: 04
        +4
        Found an interesting article)))))))))

        I quote an excerpt))))

        In July 1943, being a major general, he was appointed deputy commander of the 416th Infantry Division. The position is actually low for the Major General, apparently, bad relations with Bagirov affected.

        However, relations with the commander Syzranov and Eibatov were more than good. A case is known from the memoirs of veterans of the 416th Infantry Division. Once Syzranov and Eibatov, after another “per capita” of a fair portion of alcohol, climbed into a captured German Pz-IV tank and made a daring raid together behind enemy lines, burning and thundering for several hours and crushing everything that came across along the way, and then safely returned back together with the tank.

        Major General Eibatov became the first military commandant of Chisinau liberated by Soviet units

        in the USSR, any officer could drive German tanks in any condition)))))))))))
        1. Knizhnik
          Knizhnik 29 July 2013 11: 16
          +2
          it's cool where to read this in more detail. There was a clash with Bagirov "Moreover, General Eybatov was appointed deputy of Dmitry Syzranov, who was in the rank of colonel. Many officers of the division considered that the transfer to a low position was Mir Jafar Bagirov's answer to the insolence of E. Eybatov. According to Bakhtiyar Efendiev, veteran 416- XNUMXst Taganrog Division, Colonel Dmitry Syzranov perceived the appointment of General Eybatov as his deputy as injustice. "Therefore, he showed excessive respect and reverence to the general," - B. Efendiyev noted.
          1. alone
            alone 2 August 2013 14: 31
            0
            the late B. Efendiev - the world was a man. was the director of our school))) forever threatened ..finger
      2. Knizhnik
        Knizhnik 29 July 2013 11: 04
        +1
        on Kalash’s shoulder it’s to kill a civilian with
      3. -ш-
        -ш- 30 July 2013 15: 41
        0
        you just don’t know how to shoot him ...
  23. bublic82009
    bublic82009 27 July 2013 20: 55
    +2
    craftsmanship is always stronger than quantity and sometimes quality. Recall 1941 the Nazis beat us on the skill. but we beat them with skill, but we had only a few such masters in 1941. In 1944-1945, we were already more skilled.
  24. old man54
    old man54 27 July 2013 21: 32
    +3
    Good article, "+", I don't even want to go into details !!! good The Jews were well-fed, there, it’s not really them, and it’s clear that I’m just happy! bully
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 28 July 2013 00: 21
      0
      Why don't you want to go into details? Here half of the article is nonsense sucked from a finger
  25. alone
    alone 27 July 2013 21: 35
    +6
    so what, Israel knows how to make weapons !! this is a universally recognized fact! I think if we all at least know something about military equipment and weapons in general, what’s well done should be recognized as good, regardless of whether you like Israel or not, it’s necessary to judge impartially and objectively
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 27 July 2013 22: 16
      +1
      Quote: lonely
      so what, Israel knows how to make weapons !! This is a recognized fact!


      that's for sure !!!!!!!! but when you buy weapons from them or cooperate, they become mean, do not want to share information, although money has already been paid .. winked ..that is become ordinary Jews .... hi
      so keep an eye out with them .... fellow ..
      1. alone
        alone 27 July 2013 22: 31
        +5
        that's why the Jews lol
        1. Panikovsky
          Panikovsky 27 July 2013 22: 57
          +2
          Jews are out of business. disagree with you. although I don’t like them.
          1. Panikovsky
            Panikovsky 5 August 2013 20: 50
            0
            lonely, you are a good man, but you are wrong. leave the Jews alone.
            1. alone
              alone 5 August 2013 20: 51
              +1
              give a million !!)))
              1. Panikovsky
                Panikovsky 7 August 2013 19: 19
                0
                joke appreciated. you +
                1. Panikovsky
                  Panikovsky 9 August 2013 19: 46
                  0
                  Panikovsky, according to the book the name is Mikhail Samuelevich. SW. lonely, believe me, Panikovsky will never be either a Tursun zade, or al-Julie, or Michael-oglu, he will forever remain a zinovy ​​Gerdt.
      2. Rumata
        Rumata 27 July 2013 22: 54
        -1
        Quote: smersh70
        They don’t want to share their information, although money has already been paid ..

        What kind of news is this? When signing a supply contract, for example, an UAV, everything related to technology is discussed in advance. There are things that are not profitable and even dangerous to sell to the state, there are technologies that are willing to sell, but it will cost more by itself, the cheapest option is to buy finished products and nothing more. By your logic, if Israel buys a pair of AKMs from Russia, then Russia will have to issue documentation for the alloys of the barrel, and if it does not give out the Russian Federation -
        Quote: smersh70
        stingy, do not want to share in (in) framing, although money has already been paid .. winked

        Some kind of kindergarten.
        1. smersh70
          smersh70 27 July 2013 23: 25
          +3
          Quote: Rumata
          Some kind of kindergarten.


          my friend .. if I wrote, then I know that I wrote ..... I don’t want to get involved in the discussion, but your fellow countrymen look at all Muslims, like 41 in the SS at Jews .... so let's not go into details ... smile
    2. Dema239
      Dema239 27 July 2013 22: 51
      +3
      Israeli weapons are generally praised only by the Jews themselves. But something, but they know how to praise themselves - this is a fact .. smile
      1. alone
        alone 27 July 2013 22: 55
        +3
        here is one example for you !! rszo link extra, launch of 300mm rocket at 150km with an error of 1m !! can you give an example of some sort of rzzo that is comparable in accuracy with this weapon?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 27 July 2013 23: 48
          +6
          And at what cost? That's right, at the cost of unmasking the firing position by launching test rockets with corner reflectors and the operation of the radar.

          And what shoots "with an error of 1 m" (in fact, with a KVO of 10 m) is a guided ammunition controlled by GPS
          1. old man54
            old man54 28 July 2013 02: 18
            0
            Quote: Spade
            And what shoots "with an error of 1 m" (in fact, with a KVO of 10 m) is a guided ammunition controlled by GPS

            Bravo Shovels! hi It was not in vain that they taught at the VVAU, and even after that, it is not just that he received money for the "stars"! Respected, although you often twist very much. wink
            1. alone
              alone 28 July 2013 11: 18
              +3
              but agree that 10 meters per 150km is also very painful, given the caliber of the rocket.
          2. alone
            alone 28 July 2013 11: 21
            +3
            A 300mm missile at 150km with an error of 10 meters (although I myself saw with my eyes a hit at 1m) an excellent result !! consider that it is an eight-barrel otrk)))
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 28 July 2013 11: 48
              +1
              But isn’t it easier to use the usual OTRK?
              1. alone
                alone 28 July 2013 12: 10
                +3
                one thing is one missile point, and one thing is eight missiles 30km more)) feel the difference
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 28 July 2013 12: 42
                  +1
                  "Points" already passed the stage. Compare with Iskander
                  1. alone
                    alone 28 July 2013 13: 01
                    +2
                    Comrade Marshal !! Iskander is not RSZO !! Secondly, the Iskander did not really participate in the hostilities. with all due respect to this complex, as you know
                    real combat conditions and exercises during exercises are not the same thing
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 28 July 2013 13: 13
                      0
                      I do not think that the complex firing guided ammunition can be called MLRS. And I don’t think that export Link participated in hostilities at least once.
                      1. alone
                        alone 28 July 2013 22: 16
                        0
                        export links as you call them ironed south Lebanon in 2006. the result is half lebanon in ruins. a lot of strongholds of hezbollah were defeated by these things.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 July 2013 22: 25
                        0
                        Oh, so interesting. And please tell me from what year they are in service with the Israel Defense Forces?
                      3. alone
                        alone 28 July 2013 22: 40
                        +2
                        they were taken into service at the beginning of the 70s, at first they took the 160mm-e, then other calibers in the course of the play, and connected them at the beginning of the 2000s. after the American MLRS was adopted, they were allowed to sell for export. and this thing interested our people. as a result, they also ended up in the arsenal of Azerbaijan
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 July 2013 22: 53
                        0
                        Dear, they are armed with American MLRS (60 pcs), there are Soviet BM-21 (58 pcs) and BM-24 (36 pcs). Of their own, 160 mm LAR-160 (50) and 290 mm LAR-290 (20).





                        And no Links, oddly enough. And it is not clear how they could be applied in Lebanon in 2006.
                      5. alone
                        alone 28 July 2013 23: 00
                        +2
                        so put in place of the 160mm-x 300th block there and get a link.extra 300th. Now we understand what's what))))
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 08
                        +1
                        300-mm missiles are not in service with the IDF and have never been used in hostilities.

                        As well as the Lynx complexes. Created exclusively for export.
                      7. smersh70
                        smersh70 28 July 2013 23: 19
                        +4


                        are and how))))
                      8. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 28
                        0
                        Is this a joke? I honestly watched the entire video, but found no confirmation that Lynx is in service in Israel.

                        By the way, I looked not in vain. Beautifully shown fire control radar, unmasking the position of the MLRS. 1.50
                      9. smersh70
                        smersh70 28 July 2013 23: 46
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        but found no confirmation that Lynx was in service in Israel.


                        Lopatov. Well, you just like to argue))) Well, look at the video once more))) Well, not the Chinese (2.15 seconds) in the same form (in) AOI ..... smile
                      10. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 50
                        0
                        Tell me the time of their appearance in the video?
                      11. smersh70
                        smersh70 28 July 2013 23: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Tell me the time of their appearance in the video?


                        Shovels, choose expressions .... fool if released for export, civil servants from the design bureau, factories and with an age over 30 years old serve as always ......
                        but here you can’t see ordinary soldiers .... age less than 30 .....

                        2.15 time
                      12. Pimply
                        Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 18
                        -2
                        Quote: smersh70
                        always civilians from design bureaus, factories and over the age of 30 years ......
                        but here you can’t see ordinary soldiers .... age less than 30 .....

                        Why? The guys from the scientific and technical department of the IDF. And are you sure that these are the shots from the maintenance of this system?
                      13. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 29 July 2013 00: 54
                        0
                        Quote: smersh70
                        but here you can’t see ordinary soldiers .... age less than 30 .....

                        They sit in some kind of KShM and poke their fingers into the buttons. Dear, what does this have to do with Lynx? The video was clearly not filmed in the MLRS cockpit. There, with all the desire, so many people cannot be rammed. But the most interesting thing is the inscription "C4I" - "Command Control Communication Computer Intelligence" Can you translate it yourself?
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 17
                      -1
                      2.15. Yes, tzahal. But there is not a fact that work on this system.
                    3. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 29 July 2013 01: 02
                      0
                      http://www.israeldefense.co.il/?CategoryID=411&ArticleID=666

                      As I understood from this two-year-old article (as far as the google translator allowed), it requires the Israeli military to start purchasing "Links" and guided ammunition for them? In particular, "Extra"?
                      Which, oddly enough for their army, is offered in another caliber - 306 mm
                    4. Pimply
                      Pimply 29 July 2013 02: 14
                      -1
                      The adoption of something like this has not been heard lately.
      2. alone
        alone 28 July 2013 23: 11
        0
        A feature of the installation is that you can shoot at the enemy with a caliber of 122, and 160, and 220, and 300 mm shells from one installation, simply changing the blocks.
      3. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 16
        0
        You never know what features there. The installation is purely exported and is not in service, and therefore could not be used in the war.
      4. alone
        alone 28 July 2013 23: 26
        +2
        dear shovels, do not argue, because we, too, did not descend from the moon, we know what we are saying.
      5. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 31
        0
        Pancake. Well, let's get the facts then: since what year has Lynx been in service with the IDF?
      6. alone
        alone 28 July 2013 23: 41
        +3
        I wrote to you from above that they were put into service. You think our fools, rolled away hundreds of millions of green for installations that really did not participate in hostilities? This does not happen.
      7. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 54
        0
        I do not know whether fools or not, decide for yourself. However, the installations did not really participate in the database for the reason that they were never armed with the OAI.
      8. alone
        alone 28 July 2013 23: 58
        +2
        you are a stubborn person)))
      9. alone
        alone 29 July 2013 00: 06
        +2
        here's a link about 300mm x missiles on the IDF balance sheet
        http://www.militaryparitet.com/perevodnie/data/ic_perevodnie/1831/
      10. Lopatov
        Lopatov 29 July 2013 00: 18
        0
        Dear, this is a reference to Israel Military Industries products, and not to the fact that they are in service.
      11. Pimply
        Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 20
        -1
        It is not indicated anywhere that the 300 mm system is in service with the IDF. Which does not mean that the system cannot be exported. 74% of Israeli military products are exported.
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 29 July 2013 00: 06
      0
      No. I just love accuracy. The water is wet, and in the opposite it is difficult to convince me.
    4. smersh70
      smersh70 29 July 2013 00: 08
      +1
      Quote: lonely
      you are a stubborn person)))



      smile better let's go to sleep) anyway, he will never prove anything)))))))))
    5. alone
      alone 29 July 2013 00: 09
      +2
      good night countryman, I’ll still sit a bit)))
  26. Pimply
    Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 10
    0
    Here in sufficient detail in Russian.
    http://waronline.org/IDF/Articles/armament/army/afv/idf-afv-review/artillery/#ch
    apter-5-4
  27. Professor
    Professor 29 July 2013 07: 52
    -3
    Quote: Spade
    And no Links, oddly enough. And it is not clear how they could be applied in Lebanon in 2006.

    In vain you are so, they are in service for a long time. On the application in Lebanon in 2006 did not meet the information.
  28. Lopatov
    Lopatov 29 July 2013 12: 05
    0
    Let's go with you then. Why is it that the Israeli military is required to put into service the model, as you put it, "which has been in service for a long time." Article dated July 25, 2011. Someone is mistaken here ...
  29. Professor
    Professor 29 July 2013 14: 00
    -1
    Quote: Spade
    Why is it that the Israeli military is required to put into service the model, as you put it, "which has been in service for a long time." Article dated July 25, 2011. Someone is mistaken here ...

    This article is a solid PR ah ah ah. And they want to more actively promote their products. Their main competitors are Raphael with its missile systems and Elbit with barrel artillery. A similar situation was with Tavor. I personally saw him among the fighters of some units and only a few years later the press began to discuss the need for its adoption. And now they are armed with almost everyone. Tamuz also resembles the situation, albeit in part. It was used for a couple of years (they even managed to bang their own special forces), then they officially accepted it and only after years it was declassified.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 28 July 2013 12: 30
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    That's right, at the cost of unmasking the firing position by launching test rockets with corner reflectors and the operation of the radar.

    Hi Shovels!
    perhaps the first copies were like that, but now they must have moved away from this concept!
    I remember you wrote the same thing about Laura !!
    Are the Jews so stupid ??
    In my opinion it is not serious!
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 July 2013 13: 00
      +1
      Welcome.

      No, they are not at all stupid. The "doped" LMS FERA continues to be used to this day. Why should they bother if potential adversaries do not have adequate RTR means, and, most importantly, there are no complexes capable of implementing target designation. We are not yet supplying Iskanders to BV.

      By the way, this is not a Jewish idea, here the Germans are pioneers. And they also have an MSA for the MLRS FIELD GUARD Mk2 rumored to be still in operation
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 28 July 2013 13: 21
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Why should they bother if probable opponents have no adequate RTR means, and, most importantly, there are no complexes capable of realizing target designation

        How not ???
        What are you about??
        Egypt, Jordan, Saudis, Syria and others do not have complexes to realize target designation, there is no RTR in our time !!! ???????????????????????????? ??????
        I will not believe!!!!!!!!!!
        although yes, the distance is great !!
        Maybe you are right..
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 July 2013 13: 25
          +1
          No. The only option is airplanes hanging in the air. But here the problem is, the Israeli Air Force is also not shaky.
  • alone
    alone 27 July 2013 22: 18
    +4
    I think none of you will say that the Kalashnikov assault rifle is a bad weapon, even if Russia is a country unto you)) good things must be recognized as good definitely !! I had an assault rifle in 1969, imagine not a single misfire or any other problem for the entire period service !!
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 27 July 2013 22: 25
      +3
      Quote: lonely
      Imagine not a single misfire or any other problems for the entire period of service !!


      and no one doubts this !!!!!!!!! just in these operations over long distances it is better to use -M-ki., as the most accurate hitters ..... I THINK SO !!!! hi fellow
      1. alone
        alone 27 July 2013 22: 29
        +1
        I won’t argue, I’m not familiar with M-16, I didn’t use it,
    2. Panikovsky
      Panikovsky 27 July 2013 23: 14
      -1
      I’m sure that I won’t make up a company for you, as an openly believing Christian.
      1. alone
        alone 27 July 2013 23: 45
        +3
        Your right, dear))
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Dema239
    Dema239 27 July 2013 22: 45
    +2
    Perhaps "Merkava" is a good tank - I don’t presume to judge, I am not an expert in tank building .. But on the international arms market, there are no queues for the purchase of "Merkav" by warriors from other countries .. Or the tank is so good that far-sighted Jews do not want to sell such a destructive weapon to anyone? belay
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 27 July 2013 22: 53
      +1
      Merk export ban was lifted just a few years ago ... wait and see
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 27 July 2013 23: 30
        +2
        Quote: il grand casino
        wait and see



        2 big flaws they have ---
        1.-too heavy .... suitable mainly for rocky areas .. I imagine. What Merkava will do in the Murova mountains when it rains there, like a bucket, for weeks))))
        2 ... this is a motor .... the resource is too small ..... it’s not a secret when the merkava go on the attack, they are followed by Mercedes (c) cheers in which the motor pairs are located .....
        3. so the simpler worker-peasant T-90 is better hi
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 27 July 2013 23: 37
          +1
          Quote: smersh70
          suitable mainly for rocky areas .. imagine what Merkava will do in the mountains of Murov when it rains, like in a bucket, for weeks))))


          Israel is not only stones.
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 28 July 2013 11: 56
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            Israel is not only stones.



            Comrade Lopatov, take a closer look at 2 pictures ... around hi laughing stones everywhere ....
            1. il grand casino
              il grand casino 28 July 2013 11: 58
              +1
              But Israel is really not only stones ... has been there many times, I can confirm)))
              In the second photo there are really stones))
            2. svp67
              svp67 28 July 2013 12: 00
              0
              Quote: smersh70
              stones everywhere ....

              Only sometimes they are covered with snow

              sand

              grass

              1. il grand casino
                il grand casino 28 July 2013 12: 02
                0
                Yes, and they are also covered: by earth, clay, sand, water (in liquid form)))) and so on. )))
                1. svp67
                  svp67 28 July 2013 13: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: il grand casino
                  Yes, and they are also covered: by earth, clay, sand, water (in liquid form)))) and so on. )))

                  Fact. The main thing is unexpected, in an unexpected place and deep ... recourse
              2. smersh70
                smersh70 28 July 2013 12: 36
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                grass


                Well, and you show in the 3rd picture - at the top left .. some stones))))
        2. alone
          alone 27 July 2013 23: 40
          +2
          I completely agree. at an altitude of 3000-3500 meters, the 65th tank is useless. it would not be so good. in the mountains it’s better to use the t-55. light and angry soldier
        3. Rumata
          Rumata 28 July 2013 00: 44
          0
          Quote: smersh70
          then Merkava will do the mountains of Murov when it rains there, as if from a bucket, for weeks))))

          Russian rains are losing compared to showers in the Golan Heights and the Upper Galilee, where in winter a week can have the same amount of rainfall (80mm per day is not uncommon) as the average for Russia per year (600mm per year), learn the materiel ...
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 28 July 2013 11: 58
            +3
            Quote: Rumata
            Russian rains lose compared to showers on Golan Heights


            in the time of Shakespeare, they didn’t smoke cigarettes. FRIEND !!!!!! fellow the mountains of the Murovsky pass are located not in Russia, my friend, but in the mountains of the Lesser Caucasus !!!!!! learn geogra (c) ju ..... laughing
            1. il grand casino
              il grand casino 28 July 2013 12: 00
              +1
              Well, people are different, many are used to measuring everything with the borders of the USSR - I think in consequence of this I said
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Lopatov
              Lopatov 28 July 2013 12: 39
              +3
              You specified it in vain. Golan - 1200 mm of precipitation per year, Small Caucasus 300-800 mm per year.
              1. smersh70
                smersh70 28 July 2013 12: 52
                +4
                Quote: Spade
                You specified it in vain. Golan - 1200 mm of precipitation per year, Small Caucasus 300-800 mm per year.


                Well, you dumbfounded me ... you’re a regular military man ... compared the theater of operations of the Golansikh heights and mountains of the Lesser Caucasus ...
                The Golan Heights are a mountain plateau of volcanic origin, extending east of Lake Tiberias (Hebrew ים כנרת - Lake Kinearet) and the Hula Valley, and further, deep into Syria. Most of it is located at an altitude of more than 1000 meters above sea level. The area of ​​the Golan Heights occupied by Israel totals about 1150 km ² with a length of 60 km and an average width of 25 km.
                From the Greater Caucasus, it is distinguished by the absence of a main axial ridge, lower absolute heights of the peaks (not more than 4000 m), significantly less sharp erosion dissection, and a slight manifestation of modern glaciation. The length is about 600 km.
                The highest peak of the Lesser Caucasus is Mount Gyamysh (3724 m, Murovdag ridge) in Nagorno-Karabakh). and precipitation - up to 1200 mm
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 28 July 2013 13: 23
                  +1
                  And what should this tell me? Should I begin to compare not patency, but the general suitability of tanks for war in the mountains? So I can please you, Merkava to the mountains is much more adapted than the T-90. Pay attention to the height of the line of fire and, as a result, the available declination angles.

                  T-90 flat tank.
        4. Professor
          Professor 28 July 2013 08: 18
          -2
          Quote: smersh70
          .this is the motor .... the resource is too small ..... it’s not a secret when the merkava go on the attack, they are followed by Mercedes (s) cheers, in which the motor pairs are located ...

          If how you write this is not a secret, then share the link. wink
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 28 July 2013 12: 01
            0



            there were (in) the Mercy dwellers ... I’ll find the right now. but look at this for now)))))))))))
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 14
              -4
              Well, a hundred times did this video shine? I do not quite understand what they are trying to prove to them
    2. phantom359
      phantom359 27 July 2013 23: 25
      +2
      So good that he is being pulled to the battlefield on trailers.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 27 July 2013 23: 36
        +3
        In order not to eat the resource and not to force the asphalt. A very smart decision.
        1. smersh70
          smersh70 27 July 2013 23: 41
          +3
          Quote: Spade
          In order not to eat the resource and not to force the asphalt



          and before you buy Merkava, you need to buy a pair of ac (s) alt-stacking machines or something .... laughing and then build an autobahn in the mountains ..... fellow
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 27 July 2013 23: 51
            +1
            Before you buy any tank you need to buy pavers.
        2. phantom359
          phantom359 28 July 2013 23: 00
          +2
          Quote: Spade
          In order not to eat the resource and not to force the asphalt. A very smart decision.

          Very smart. The Jews on the pavement all the time going to fight? Or merkava asphalt disease.? The tank should have a power reserve, which is on virgin soil and on asphalt.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 28 July 2013 23: 11
            -1
            They are. Just when there is no need to ruin this resource - it is not ruined.
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 July 2013 23: 12
            +1
            No, they decided to move their armored vehicles on the roads. In order not to build a network of railways, as in Russia.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 28 July 2013 00: 24
      -3
      There are queues for the technologies presented in it.
  • family tree
    family tree 27 July 2013 22: 59
    +3
    The success was impressive, the units of the 6 Guards Tank Corps did not lose a single tank. The crew of junior lieutenant Oskin burned three "Royal Tiger" and one knocked out. Alexander Petrovich himself was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union, the commander of the gun Abubakir Mirkhaydarov - the Order of Lenin, and the rest of the crew were awarded medals.

    IS-2 Klimenkova - two "Royal Tigers"
    IS-2 Udalova - three "Royal Tigers"
    IS-2 Belyakov - one "Royal Tiger"
    T-34-85 Oskina and artillery nearby - three "Royal Tigers"
    2 TB 53 GbTBr - night attack on the village Contagion _four_ "Royal Tigers" were put into operation, one of them now stands in Kubinka.
    Infectious, this village is called http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/209182.html?thread=683806&mode=reply IS-122 cannot be called not equal to CT
    1. Drummer
      Drummer 28 July 2013 06: 47
      0
      Yes, the crucial role in the defeat of 501 TTB was played by the masterfully operating IS 71s of the OGvTTP. Of course, this does not detract from the achievements of the Oskin crew.
    2. ratuld
      ratuld 28 July 2013 11: 18
      -3
      This is what you need to advertise to coen and others.
      Daily !!!
      And then I'm tired of the photo of 41 years.
      Yes, and then one side.
      M. Gareev spent several years calculating the real losses of the Wehrmacht and the Kyrgyz Republic during the war.
      Discouraged !!!
      We have almost the same losses !!!
      KR has even less - due to BEST field surgery and recovery.
  • alone
    alone 27 July 2013 23: 06
    +2
    the name of the village just corresponds to the events))) so many tanks were destroyed at a time without loss love Respect to our grandfathers !!!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • faraon
    faraon 28 July 2013 00: 33
    -2
    Quote: phantom359
    Quote: Drummer
    Quote: faraon
    I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.

    About the eternal. Our hats are the most throwing hats in the world!

    well, let's say the Jews have articles that are much hazy. but the fact that the super merkave has filled the face with the old ATGM and RPG is a fact. Only some "researchers" are irritated by this fact.

    It is not at all annoying, like the fact when there was a tank battle with Syria and the old centurion in lesser quantities burned super-modern tanks of the Syrian army.
    I wrote earlier there are no perfect tanks, they all burn the same. The question is about the survivability of the car and crew in a modern war, and the possibility of repair in order to turn the car into operation within a short time.
    1. ratuld
      ratuld 28 July 2013 15: 41
      -2
      There is nothing to be proud of.
      Centurions prepared and fired almost to the barrel's resource.
      And in completely clogged with shells and additional solarium 62 sat nirazu not firing Jewish Arabs.
      By the way, one Egyptian su-100 crew burned almost all of Israel’s wrecked tanks.
      There were officers from the USSR
      I got crazy.
    2. phantom359
      phantom359 28 July 2013 23: 04
      +3
      Quote: faraon
      Quote: phantom359
      Quote: Drummer
      Quote: faraon
      I carefully read the article and again did not understand what it was about.

      About the eternal. Our hats are the most throwing hats in the world!

      well, let's say the Jews have articles that are much hazy. but the fact that the super merkave has filled the face with the old ATGM and RPG is a fact. Only some "researchers" are irritated by this fact.

      It is not at all annoying, like the fact when there was a tank battle with Syria and the old centurion in lesser quantities burned super-modern tanks of the Syrian army.
      I wrote earlier there are no perfect tanks, they all burn the same. The question is about the survivability of the car and crew in a modern war, and the possibility of repair in order to turn the car into operation within a short time.

      I read the same thing for the centurions, only exactly the opposite. The old man burned as it should be - a lot and beautiful. You forgot. the truth behind the M48 and M60 is super-modern to mention.
  • Corsair
    Corsair 28 July 2013 00: 41
    0
    They abandoned the Kalashnikov assault rifle in favor of the M-4 and M-16, while having a large number of night and thermal sights.

    And what is better than eMka AK? request What is the reason for the replacement? request
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 28 July 2013 01: 50
      0
      In fact - nonsense in the article. Hezbollah uses everything. It’s just that the Americans were once in Lebanon, there were many m-16s left. In addition, the Lebanese army is armed with m-16. Here is the Hezbollah fighter with AK.

      M-ka has both a number of advantages over AK, and a number of disadvantages. Overall - a very comfortable rifle.
      1. aleshka
        aleshka 28 July 2013 06: 26
        +5
        among the Israelis always, if the article is not laudatory, then it’s nonsense !!!
        1. Drummer
          Drummer 28 July 2013 06: 52
          +2
          Bullshit is a fantasy with which the author of the article compensates for the ignorance of the material.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 16
          -1
          Not if the article is illiterate - this is nonsense. The author sucks I don’t know where the unconfirmed data came from, but the same illiterate readers sing along to him.
          1. phantom359
            phantom359 28 July 2013 23: 06
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            Not if the article is illiterate - this is nonsense. The author sucks I don’t know where the unconfirmed data came from, but the same illiterate readers sing along to him.

            Forgot to add that competent articles are written only in America and Israel. The rest is all communist propaganda.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 12
              -1
              No. Literate articles are written by literate people. This person is illiterate. Well, what is worth mentioning the use of "Trophy", which at the time of the Second Lebanese tank was not installed.
              1. phantom359
                phantom359 29 July 2013 22: 06
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                No. Literate articles are written by literate people. This person is illiterate. Well, what is worth mentioning the use of "Trophy", which at the time of the Second Lebanese tank was not installed.

                Of course, there is such a figure as Martin Dogherty, who considers himself a competent specialist, after reading his "works" I want to laugh.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 30 July 2013 00: 29
                  -2
                  Are we discussing his work somewhere here?
                  1. phantom359
                    phantom359 30 July 2013 00: 54
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Are we discussing his work somewhere here?

                    No, I just gave an example of an objective statement of facts by a Western researcher. the first one I remembered.
                  2. phantom359
                    phantom359 30 July 2013 22: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Are we discussing his work somewhere here?

                    We are trying to prove something to each other, but each is firmly convinced that he is right. Useless conversation. Dougherty considers himself a great expert on tanks, so that is relevant to the topic. He writes - the M60 is a modern, advanced tank, the T72 is an outdated, primitive one. And many Western "researchers" have similar reasoning. And after that you will tell me something for your "historians". I prefer the work of direct participants.
  • report4
    report4 28 July 2013 11: 05
    +1
    Merkava has several critical flaws -
    and. too heavy
    b. from Israel the soldiers are both from Mr. bullet.
    Therefore, this "iron kaput" will not bring any great victories
    1. alone
      alone 28 July 2013 11: 12
      +1
      Well, after all, these bullets won everything that could be won in regional conflicts.
    2. ratuld
      ratuld 28 July 2013 11: 14
      -1
      They just haven't fought yet.
      And not going to
      How does a serious mess begin - the Coens merge with the rest of the Jews in ecstasy.
      watch more closely !!!
      Funny lads !!!
      A amers they still want to drag on nix ....
      ... let's see how things go with Assad.
      And there it will be seen.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 28 July 2013 18: 17
      -3
      Can you justify the second point with something?

      You can somehow explain - difficult in comparison with what and for what.
  • alone
    alone 28 July 2013 12: 06
    +3
    wait and see
  • smersh70
    smersh70 28 July 2013 12: 11
    +1
    Comrade PRo (v) essor --- look at the article here on the site ----- News »Events
    A problem was discovered in the engines of Israeli tanks and read at your leisure ... hi
    Why are the engines of Israeli tanks breaking

    06.06.2012/XNUMX/XNUMX MIGnews.com
    IDF controller, retired lieutenant colonel Alon Harari initiated a check on the technical condition and acceptance of a number of modern weapons, primarily Merkava IV tanks.
    It turned out that Merkava IV has an extremely limited military resource. The tank is operational only 200-250 hours. After that, it is necessary to make a complex and expensive repair - before the expiration of the next 200 hours.
    Moreover, the repairmen do not have a sufficient supply of tank engines, and at a critical moment for the state, it can simply be left without tanks.
    Harari indicates that the engines break down due to a problem in the piston system. The problem has been known since the tank was put into service in 2003. It has not yet been resolved.
    Harari created a special committee of retired officers, whose task is to find a solution to this problem.
    The committee received an "emergency mandate" to review the IDF's new weapons procurement system and identify deficiencies similar to the problem of tank engines.
    1. Professor
      Professor 28 July 2013 13: 54
      +1
      Quote: smersh70
      Comrade PR (v) essor

      1. You are not my friend.
      2. I hope you have a typo in my nickname, otherwise I will take action.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 July 2013 14: 08
        0
        He just does not have the letter "F" And he always writes "(c)" No unnecessary arrivals.
  • alone
    alone 28 July 2013 12: 47
    +3
    you noticed? Lieutenant Colonel AOI openly indicated all the shortcomings before the committee. what would ours do?
    would immediately rivet the report "everything is okay. The tanks are not afraid of dirt. We will break through, etc." the main difference between foreigners and ours (by "ours, I mean the countries of the former ussr") a clear understanding of the problems and an attempt to solve it, and not to gossip
  • tilovaykrisa
    tilovaykrisa 28 July 2013 13: 59
    +1
    Merkava is probably the best tank at the moment to protect the crew, but taking into account the high saturation with anti-tank systems of modern infantry, this makes them a target, though not easy, they will destroy the trucks and merkava at a time.
    1. svp67
      svp67 28 July 2013 14: 02
      +2
      Quote: tilovaykrisa
      they will knock down the trucks and ruin the merkava at a time.
      In such a case, the Merkava is also the best tank in the world for "drap". no need to climb through the top hatches or the "heroes" hatch. I ran across the tank to the stern, threw open the door and dyru ...
      1. tilovaykrisa
        tilovaykrisa 28 July 2013 21: 37
        +1
        You can, of course, drape, if the Arabs from the SVD do not roll while trying to escape.
  • homosum20
    homosum20 28 July 2013 14: 05
    +1
    If a third of the tigers is out of order before the battle - this indicates the reliability of the tank. They would have another 150 km to go - it would not have been necessary to track them. And here is the tactic. The tank was underdeveloped. TTX overstated (aligned with T.Z.)
    About Merkava I did not understand. And how many were set on fire? How much did you lose?
    I know that today, Israel does what it wants with the Arabs. What is success then?
    Tanks need to be developed and made, and not pi.d.ob.lit, that we will kill all the abrams from a slingshot. We’ll interrupt it, but we will pay with terrible blood.
    1. alone
      alone 28 July 2013 21: 34
      +2
      the irretrievable losses of only 3 tanks. 1 MK-4,1MK-3,1MK-2. Moreover, two out of 3 were blown up by HE mines with a capacity of one and a half tons. The rest of the damaged ones underwent short-term repairs and went into operation. And besides those 2, all corrupted tanks with corns by corps, loss of floor 1 person in every second tank. ammunition is completely separated from the crew.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 28 July 2013 23: 20
        -2
        5 tanks. 2 are blown up by HE mines.
        1. alone
          alone 29 July 2013 00: 30
          +3
          Well, maybe 5, but you must admit that this is too miserable compared to how many missiles were used up and what irretrievable losses
    2. svp67
      svp67 28 July 2013 21: 43
      0
      Quote: homosum20
      If a third of the tigers is out of order before the battle - this indicates the reliability of the tank. They would still have to go 150 km - they would not have to be shot along. And here is the tactic.
      It would be generally the highest class of tactics, to force the enemy to constantly make marches and lose, lose military strength without harming our ...
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 28 July 2013 16: 25
    0
    Quote: serge-68-68
    So what? Tie Valuev - and even a goner will "trim" him. The only problem is how to tie Valuev? Therefore, the associated Valuev is a very rare, I would even say, an exceptional phenomenon. In other cases, the goner does not shine ...
    God made people different, and Colonel Colt called them equal.
  • konstantins5s7e
    konstantins5s7e 28 July 2013 17: 52
    +4
    I would like to say a little by Merkava 4. To break it from outdated RPGs and ATGMs is not difficult, but this will lead to minor damage (if the BK doesn’t fuck)))). The photo shows places where it's quite simple to do, in the tower there is a BC, in the case there are air conditioners.
  • konstantins5s7e
    konstantins5s7e 28 July 2013 17: 53
    0
    here is another photo
  • tilovaykrisa
    tilovaykrisa 28 July 2013 21: 47
    +1
    Yes, everyone understands that there are weaknesses, they are in any technique, advertising as always differs from reality, Abrams also PR at one time, still I rate it at different ratings above Russian, you can really check the mercava by entering it into narrow streets Lebanese cities without infantry cover, it will become clear whether this is the safest tank in the world or not, well, unless of course you tell someone.
    1. alone
      alone 28 July 2013 22: 21
      +4
      so the fact of the matter is that they do not poke them alone in city blocks like a Mercedes pawn. First they send assault groups with military bulldozers. After that, they will even level up the land of the tada and the merkava. while the bulldozer is ironing the quarters, the merkava act as fire support.
    2. Knizhnik
      Knizhnik 29 July 2013 11: 40
      +1
      All tanks are tested in their homeland and beyond. Who needs it knows which tank in which category is better than whom and how much. Everything else is public relations for the public with the goal of praising one’s and cheating someone else’s
  • alone
    alone 28 July 2013 23: 47
    +2
    and more on the topic !! the author claims that, instead of savages, the IDF ran into a fortified area. So this fortified area was created by them themselves when Israel, occupying the south of Lebanon, was holding a puppet army of South Lebanon there. So most likely the fortified area was probably known
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 29 July 2013 00: 21
      -1
      Not really. There was another fortified area. Hezbollah dug in for 6 years.
      1. alone
        alone 29 July 2013 00: 32
        +2
        right. dug in and at the same time changing embrasures already in the opposite direction. i.e., it is rational to use what is
  • Knizhnik
    Knizhnik 29 July 2013 11: 32
    +2
    The second part of the article carries, to put it mildly, an ironic look at the IDF and its weapons, which offended members of the forum with the Star of David. Is it deliberately "fun"? Who will it be about next time?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 29 July 2013 11: 42
      -2
      The second part of the article is mainly nonsense, and not supported by anything. The author would learn to work with sources and documents, and not with imagination.
  • Ursus
    Ursus 29 July 2013 13: 25
    0
    An interesting look of the author. Thank you.
  • Ursus
    Ursus 29 July 2013 23: 48
    +3
    Colleagues on the site, can I enlighten? I’m quite a slag here :) I read an article, an article interesting to me personally. I thanked the author. And the cons already. For what, thanks :)
  • angolaforever
    angolaforever 2 August 2013 14: 18
    +1
    Quote: velikoros-xnumx
    Quote: Pimply
    You are far from me, sorry. You do not know how to work with documents.


    Yes, where are we sinners with our three convolutions to the inhabitants of the promised land.
    Such a statement on your part is at least immodest, and in my opinion defiant. For such words you can be beaten in the face.

    It’s sad that our commentators look at the level of fellow birds in comparison with the citizens of Israel, who surpass them by an order of magnitude in terms of intelligence and adequacy.
  • Massik
    Massik 13 August 2013 18: 51
    0
    Oh, how much you can look for flaws in other people's armored vehicles, you don’t care, you would have known better than you, the article is really about a bicycle, which they are starting to actively discuss, as if they had never seen and just invented. No one is imposing your point of view on you, comrades, but if you think so, you can simply keep silent by leaving the author's statement on his conscience, you are an expert in this field and know that everything is wrong! I personally can only talk about small arms and military clashes with illegal armed groups in the mountains and forests, because I have a little practice. Therefore, I do not meddle in discussions of tanks, missiles, etc. etc. , because I have nothing to do with them.
  • Woldemar
    Woldemar 15 August 2013 15: 06
    0
    Already along Merkava we traveled far and wide. ) And this is significant, so the car is of interest. Everyone says about American abrams that he is a complete Mr., and no one argues with this, everyone agrees. )) And then the whole debate, and even a bunch of articles written. By the way, in this article in the first lines it is said that we will talk about the most advanced tanks, so the merkava was attributed to the most advanced tanks, but few people paid attention to this) In general, all the tanks are similar and not much different, the same methods and methods for their destruction.