Military Review

Look because of the armor. BMP-3 too early to send to rest

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I hasten to make a reservation right away: I am not an “expert on armored vehicles,” moreover, I don't even have the desire to become one. The fact is that among the so-called "experts" who write about "how bad our BMP is" or "what kind of BMP is needed by Russia," I see pundits carefully studying the experience of world and domestic tank building, who know all about our, American and Israeli combat vehicles.


But knowing all this only from scientific articles and theories of each other. I belong to another category - the category of practitioners, those who by fate had not to study articles in journals, but at night to study “Technical Description and Operation Guide”. And in the morning, together with the driver-mechanics, the gunner operators and the senior company technician, bring the subtracted at night, invented on this basis in insomnia and seen under the open hatches, “slate” and “polik” to a common denominator. I am proud that in the quarter century of service in the Armed Forces I have mastered quite well the operation of the BMP-1, and the BMP-2, and the BMP-3. And it was necessary to squeeze out from them everything that they were capable of, not according to TTH, but according to their actual condition. In other words, I am an officer who has extensive experience in operating these machines in the real world of wars and conflicts.

FIRST ACQUAINTANCE WITH "SWALLOWS"

My acquaintance with the BMP-3 and service on these machines were a bit ridiculous. At the school (Omsk VOKU) we were taught on the BMP-2 and the BTR-80, and in the troops the first machine I had to master and operate was the BMP-3. Later, in the North Caucasus Military District, he switched to BMP-2, and then had to fight on BMP-1 and machines based on it. Then again the BMP-2 and, finally, the native swallow - “three points”.

In the school at the department of armament and shooting, we were taught the composition of the armament of the BMP-3, but all according to posters and stands. You could see the car itself while standing on guard at the training car park, and when it went to the training ground when the BMP-3 rushed past the cadets line tank the road. Even then, it was noteworthy how the car goes along irregularities - the body literally floats in the air, and only the road wheels work out all the holes, potholes and bumps.

And so, after graduation and the first lieutenant leave, I was assigned to the 228 Motorized Rifle Regiment of the 85 Motorized Rifle Division in Novosibirsk — my first personal acquaintance with the BMP-3 took place there. The company commander Sasha Lozhkin, who graduated a year earlier from my own school, brought me to the fleet of combat vehicles and, pointing at the equipment, casually said: “These three cars are yours. There is nothing to be afraid of - everything is as simple as a penny. ” For the first time, it was even a little scary to approach this engineering miracle, which, according to the teachers in the school, was stuffed with electronics at the level of a spacecraft.

But after we together climbed the 20-30 minutes on the BMP-3, everything somehow fell into place. Correctly wise people say: "The eyes are afraid, but the hands do." Already all the tumblers and buttons were pressed in the correct sequence, all operations necessary not only to start the engine, but also to transfer weapons to the combat position, to aim and fire, became clear and simple. Half of all the manipulations that the BMP-2 had to perform with a screwdriver and a special hook were simply taken over by the troechk. It even became a little insulting - for which four years were trained to perform the process of loading ammunition and loading a gun for speed, for which hands were knocked into the blood, when you just need to lower the end of the tape into the receiving sleeve and press a button.

Look because of the armor. BMP-3 too early to send to rest

The smooth running of the BMP-3 on the head exceeds the "two".


After the first meeting, it was time to work in the park, preparing the equipment for the field exit, during which a close acquaintance with the “swallow” took place. The big advantage was that all the squad leaders, gunner operators and driver mechanics did not just finish the training unit, but were sergeants and instructors there. Considerable assistance in the development of technology provided and factory teams, constantly working in the regiment. I will not, however, recount in detail history his service. Let's get down to business.

BMP-3 FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE PRACTICE

Experts from the press say: the crew is more important than the iron, and the BMP-3 has a huge drawback - the engine is at the back, not the front, like in M2 Bradley, other Western BMPs or the Merkava tank, where the engine is an additional protection for the crew and landing force. You can arbitrarily argue about the advantages of heavy infantry fighting vehicles - the level of protection, firepower, in the same system with tanks ... Or maybe you should start from the stove, from your own, Russian stove? What is the need for BMP Russian army? To perform the tasks defined by the Armed Forces. I think everyone will agree with that.

Then let's start by comparing the conditions in which our motorized infantry troops are to perform the task, and not the Israel Defense Forces or the US Armed Forces. The Constitution, Military Doctrine and other governing documents of the RF Armed Forces state that our army must protect the country from external aggression and participate in counter-terrorism operations in the territory of the Russian Federation, as well as to participate in peacekeeping missions in accordance with international agreements of Russia within the UN.

Consequently, the main theater of military operations for the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and therefore for infantry fighting vehicles, will be the territory of Russia and the adjacent states. Based on the characteristics of the geographical zones of our Motherland, it must be admitted that we need a floating BMP that is able to overcome water obstacles without preparation, and a heavy BMP cannot be such.

The Israel Defense Forces in its theater of operations with a small number of rivers do not need floating infantry fighting vehicles. Infantry (motorized and mechanized) parts of the US Army are armed with an infantry fighting vehicle M2 Bradley, which initially has limited buoyancy. Recently, the US Armed Forces have been fighting mainly in the sands, and further deterioration of M2 Bradley’s properties to overcome water obstacles on their own as a result of increased booking is not a significant problem for them.

In our country, from the Dnieper to the Ussuri and Amur, the whole territory lies between the watersheds and the river beds.

I want to ask the community of experts: who of you drove the BMP-1 (BMP-2) and BMP-3? And not a trial lap in the park or along the aligned path of the headmistress at the test site, but at least in the old broken tank-course, in which for three or four months already tanks, BMP, MTLB and SAU were worn. I will not even ask about driving along the spurs of the Terek Range, about climbing the “serpentines” of the Kharami Pass and the Chuisk Road, about the mud of rice “checks” under Engel-Yurt and clay under Novogroznensky and Alleroi. Who shot from regular weapons and small weapons from the troop compartments of these machines?

I foresee the answer: no one.

And I ask this question as follows: the one who drove a BMP with a front-mounted MTO (BMP-1, BMP-2) and BMP-3, knows the difference between them.


If motorized infantry prefer to go on armor, then the open hatches of the amphibious assault unit BMP-3 turn into additional protection.


Anyone, even an inexperienced driver, knows how a “penny” and a “dvuhchek” “wind” with their nose, how to turn the car so that it doesn’t catch a hole in the dive, and then you can pierce the shock absorbers and torsions with balancers scatter along the road or even “catch a dolphin” - dive into a puddle with your head.

Peres on the BMP-3, you immediately feel that centering and balancing on it, thanks to the transfer of the engine to the stern, have changed for the better, and the use of double torsions in the undercarriage design further improved the driving performance.

The good smoothness of the BMP-3 makes life easier not only for the driver, but also for the gunner-operator, who no longer needs to find a pause between jumps and dives, he can fire practically in polygon conditions, even when driving over bumps, pits and potholes. The gunner-operator does not live by the stabilizer.

Another argument of the opponents of the BMP-3 is the location of the landing and the need to fully open the upper stern projection of the vehicle with the landing of troops on top of the engine.

Well, let's look at it from the point of view of practice.

First, the landing is very comfortable for making long marches - practically in the center of mass of the BMP, which means that the motorized infantry does not wind up, as in the BMP with the front engine, where they are located on the long end of the lever. Let us ask an ordinary motorized infantry rider: “What do you think, son, on the march for a hundred kilometers to fly in the landing party, mixed with knapsacks, weapons and neighbors”? In addition, the motorized infantrymen quickly realized what benefits they could get from footboards, handles, and doors with hatches on the stern of the car. At the first demonstrative tactical doctrine, which we conducted for the members of the military council of the district, I was surprised when the soldiers, overcoming the passage in the mine-blast barriers, did not run after the car on tracked tracks, which were difficult to guess on dry ground, and immediately jumped on steps, grabbed the handles and drove the aisles behind the stern of the car, hiding behind her armor. The rate of overcoming the minefield was three times higher than when it was passed on foot behind the machine, the risk of stumbling and stepping on a mine dropped to almost zero.

Secondly, the exit through the engine is no more difficult than through tight feed doors or a ramp.

Thirdly, in the conditions of local conflicts in a mountainous and wooded area, for example, in the Chechen Republic, when motorized infantry prefer to ride armor rather than inside the car, the open hatches of the troop compartment turn into an armor type of open top armored armor.

Some critics of the BMP-3 reproach the creators of the car with the fact that the infantrymen, who play the role of the gunners of the course machine guns, must land under enemy fire through the upper hatches located in front of the machine.

To respond to this claim, we need to touch upon such concepts as the capacity of the troop compartment, the organizational structure of the motorized rifle squad and the tactics of offensive combat.

The BMP-3 was created in Soviet times under the motorized infantry branch of the USSR Armed Forces. According to the state, it included: the squad leader — the commander of the combat vehicle (KO-MSC), the gunner-operator (BUT), the driver-mechanic (MV), the machine-gunner (P), the gunner-gunner (SG), the gunner-assistant of the grenade launcher (LNG ), senior shooter and shooter. Total - eight people in the department.


For coursework PCT to become a means of destroying the enemy, driver mechanics need to be taught how to shoot them.


The troop compartment freely accommodates five people, although it can accommodate six paratroopers without any problems. Fighting compartment - two people (KO-KBM and BUT). Department of Management - three people. Total - 10 people. There are two free places in the car.

In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the number of personnel in the motorized infantry unit either decreased, increased, but never exceeded eight people.

I turn to tactics. There are two types of offensive - on prepared defense and on unprepared enemy defense.

When attacking a prepared defense, personnel dismount and attack on foot with the support of the BMP.

When attacking an unprepared defense, an offensive is planned without dismounting motorized riflemen.

After breaking through the enemy defenses - even with the current views on the conduct of hostilities, all leading countries pay special attention to advancing the enemy along the withdrawal routes with the task of preventing his organized retreat and organizing defense at intermediate lines. This is where we will summarize our GSAs and technical capacity with tactics.

When attacking the enemy’s prepared defenses, the entire landing force is located in the troop compartment and only the crew take their places through the top hatches of the tower and the control compartment. The places of gunners of course machine guns remain free, while the course machine guns themselves are placed on the stoppers and transferred under the control of the driver.

If, however, we have to attack a weaker enemy - without dismounting, then the firepower of the combat vehicle will come to the fore. It is in this case that the FCT coursework with separate control is needed.

During the pursuit of the enemy and his advancing with access to intermediate lines, an important characteristic of a combat vehicle is the ability to fire forward and to the flanks without dismounting the landing force. In this case, the course guns and the possibility of firing arrows through the embrasures are no less important than the fire of a tower installation.

I don’t know if there are other BMPs now that have such a comfortable opportunity to fire from small arms through side embrasures or not, but the fact that the BMP-3 is a head taller than the BMP-1 and BMP-2, - that's for sure.

I remember how to do the exercise of shooting from small arms from the airborne unit of the BMP-1. It was a miracle if it succeeded in a narrow glazed sector to precisely release a line at a target dancing in front of my eyes - I already mentioned the driving characteristics of the BMP-1 and BMP-2.

When installing the BMP-3 machine gun for the first time, I was surprised that there is no window for aiming and monitoring the target. It turned out that in this car the soldier does not need to aim, clinging to the machine gun, for this purpose the aiming mark is provided in the viewing device of the gunner of TNPO, which moves where the rifle gun turns. The five-minute exercise in motion, and the crosshair of the aiming mark in the circle, became firmly held on the chosen object. The combination of double torsions, rear centering and placement of the landing force in the center of mass of the vehicle ensures effective fire without the need to keep both the weapon and the target in sight in line with the eye.


The main caliber of the BMP-3 - 100-mm gun 2А70.


It is inconvenient to shoot only through the stern loophole: in order to open fire from it, the machine gunner needs to crawl into the tunnel, in the darkness to prepare the weapon to the touch, and then fire in this cramp. But in what cases do you need to shoot through the stern loophole? Is that in terms of the environment of the machine with the troops inside. In other words, this loophole is needed as a last resort, when it will be no time for crowding and darkness.

However, the main armament of the BMP is, of course, a gun in the tower.

Now they argue a lot about what kind of weapons are more suitable for cars of this class. There is an opinion that it is necessary to dwell on the 30-40 mm, there is an opinion on the need to strengthen the cannon armament up to 57 mm or even on the installation of tank guns. You can talk a lot on this topic, but an option that combines the powerful 100-mm and the rapid-fire 30-mm guns has long been created - this is the Bakhcha combat module.

The 100-mm gun 2А70, which is also the ATGM launcher, has in its ammunition set high-explosive fragmentation shells (OFS) and anti-tank guided missiles. There is a “P-100” position on the ballistics type switch. Few people know that it is intended to carry out an air explosion of a projectile on approaching the target. This allows you to fight with the enemy's manpower, located on the reverse slopes of heights, in ravines, behind walls and in trenches, and also to conduct effective fire on aerial targets.

In order to characterize the excellent characteristics of the BMP-3 fire control system, I will tell you again a case from my practice. Once, during night firing at the control classes, my sergeant was told from the tower that he had got two flights for the estimated clearance (the exercise was performed shooting from the 100-mm guns according to the gun crew, the target was a gun shield and 5 growth figures). He was angry with the inspector and gave the air straight: “I lift the lift with the third projectile!” The head of the test site knew what that meant and cried: “Don't!” Then, when we went to see the shooting results, it turned out: two blanks flashed the shield in the center, and the third hit right under the base of the target, breaking the stance.

On the BMP-3, in parallel with the 100-mm gun, an 30-mm 2-72 gun was installed. It, in contrast to the more well-known 2А42, is recharged due to the long stroke of the barrel. This not only reduces gas pollution in the fighting compartment of the vehicle, but also creates a larger ellipse of dispersal of projectiles in flight, which makes it possible to more effectively fire at high-speed low-flying air targets.

The energy of this weapon is such that a long line can stop the T-80 tank at full speed. You can imagine what will be inside the tank with such a "braking". There is no need to talk about the presence of any observation devices, target designation, fire control, active defense of the machine or anti-aircraft machine-gun installations after such a “rainstorm” - the tower looks like a freshly shaved skull.

Now about ATGW. ATGM on the BMP-3 is launched through the gun - launcher. On the BMP-1 and the BMP-2 with the Fagot or Konkur anti-tank missile systems, in order to prepare the ATGM for launch, it was necessary to lean out, insert the launch container into the guides, and then lead the missile to the target. In the BMP-3 rocket need only be sent into the barrel, pointing through the main unit-sight. The only advantage of the previous machines in comparison with the "troika" is that they had the possibility of carrying out the ATGM from the machine and working with a portable launcher. It would not hurt the BMP-3.


Shooting loophole BMP-3 is really uncomfortable to shoot. But it is needed only in case of emergency.


In conclusion, a brief review of the armament of the machine I want to dwell on the FCT course machine guns.

Yes, the driver has the problem of driving the machine and firing machine guns during the battle, but on other machines there is no such possibility. How many times did it happen that the driver sees the target and the arrows in the chain do not observe it, while the gunner – operator is busy destroying another target, so leave the enemy uncased? Even just turn in the direction of the target - this is target designation, as well as the disruption of targeted firing by the enemy. It’s not so easy to take aim when two machine guns are shooting at you.

However, two course-based FCTs are not just a means of psychological influence on an adversary, but first and foremost a means of destroying it. Driver mechanics need to learn how to shoot from machine guns. Therefore, it is necessary to introduce appropriate exercises into the training program and into the course of firing and develop a methodology for teaching such shooting.

We now return to the layout of the BMP-3 and try to figure out how much the front engine position influences the level of crew and airborne protection.

The BMP-3 has a fuel tank in the nose with partitions and floats to dampen fuel vibrations, the protective walls of which prohibit its detonation. This tank, in the case of penetration of armor, will assume all that flew in front of the car.

If instead of the fuel tank to place the engine and protect the crew with its price, how long will this extend the life of people? The machine, which has lost its mobility and power supply of all the power supply circuits of the instruments and control of armament due to the engine, is doomed to live on the battlefield for only a few seconds.

The BMP-3 with a broken fuel tank, even if one of the crew members is lost, will be able to stand up for itself, and get out of the blow, and close itself and its troops with smoke. It is the increase in survivability of the BMP, its ability to continue to “snap” to the last, which allows us to save people's lives, and not the dubious gain of a few seconds at the cost of the life of the machine.

PROBLEMS OF BMP-3 ARE PROBLEMS OF ALL RUSSIAN ARMY

During the service, I heard a lot of complaints about the BMP-3 and from the officers, but when I asked them how long they had served it, it turned out that none of them had the good fortune even to get acquainted with the car. All the talk about the excessive complexity of the BMP-3 and the inability to repair in the field is based on the words of someone from the outside. These conversations even went to our school at the turn of 1980-1990. However, I did not hear from officers of the 228 Motorized Rifle Regiment complaints about the complexity; driver mechanics who were called up from collective farms and from mines, digging into engines, did not say that it could not be repaired. Soldiers of military service quite successfully master the machine, they just need to be taught this, taught in training units, taught daily in parts, trained and educated. The machine, along with simplicity, requires detailed training of personnel for its operation and use for combat purposes. Then she will show herself in all the brilliance of steel and fire.

Of the 326 cases of failure of the BMP-3, recorded over two years in the 19 ombsbr, almost 99% are faults that arose during the operation due to personnel, and a rather large part of the claims are not confirmed at all by the repair crews: often their inability and shortcomings in the preparation of personnel simply trying to shift to the car.

In early-release machines, the rangefinder transceiver was located above the barrel, and after each march it had to be reconciled.

And what do we want when there are no training units that train specialists for maintenance and repair of the BMP-3, there are no repair teams in the states of the brigade (only the service units), there is not even a battery in the staff of the motorized rifle brigade, although the first place in the list of faults it is the dead batteries that occupy, not to mention the fact that cadets are still taught in BMP-2 and BTR-80 in schools. When I took photographs for this material, I asked the lieutenant about his impressions of the car. In response, I heard: “I don’t know yet — we haven’t studied it at the school, but here I’ve spent it all around in the summer, and that's it.” But I asked him my question already in the winter.

On the one hand, the army was relieved of its unusual tasks - they gave all the equipment repair to factory structures, but on the other hand - by doing so, we deprived the soldier of daily communication with the machine, studying not the equipment in the classroom, but the lively equipment assigned to it with all its individual features . The driver turned into an ordinary rider, unable to do anything but push the pedals and turn the steering wheel.

After all, there is no more effective technical training than a hand-made repair of the equipment entrusted under the supervision of a specialist, but also the positions of senior technicians have moved into the category of sergeants. And who is the sergeant now? The sergeant is the same “conscript” who served from six months to a year and, like all the others, has no experience in troop repair of the machine. From whom, then, to raise senior technicians, if all the repair work is carried out by factory brigades?

Over time, the machines leave the factory warranty service, and the personnel cannot repair them - this is what led to the outsourcing.

At one time, I had to command a combined platoon of training vehicles, and then a combined company of training BMP-3s at the proving ground in Shilovo. The task of these units was actually the repair, restoration and preparation of the combat training group machines for classes.

And the first thing I had to do was learn from driver mechanics and artmasters. It was already later that I, without getting into the engine, could tell any soldier what had broken and what had to be done, but at first I was learning. Yes, I say this, not at all embarrassed, - I learned from the soldiers and sergeants, consulted with warrant officers and officers, bored with questions from the guys from the factory brigades. I do not see anything shameful. But pay attention - he studied with soldiers and sergeants of military service, and not with professional military personnel under contract, and this already speaks about their level of training.

Like any other machine, the BMP-3 has its weaknesses and shortcomings. Can anyone show me a car without them?

The essence of our main claims to the design of the machine was that the rangefinder transceiver was installed above the gun barrel, which made it necessary to carry out its reconciliation after each march in preparation for firing.

However, now the brigade is replacing the BMP-3 with the same location of the device on the machines in which the transceiver is transferred to the armor of the tower to the right of the gun.

Initially, the design of the BMP-3 was the possibility of changing the clearance, but the mechanism was weak and constantly broke down, so it was first blocked, and then removed altogether. So until now, the car has not received a new mechanism for changing the clearance (MIC). But its presence contributes to improving the accuracy of fire on rough terrain, improving maneuverability and increases the possibilities for covert location behind the elements of the terrain or landscape, and together it increases the fire abilities and survival of the machine on the battlefield.


Taking into account the wishes of the military in the newer BMP-3 transceiver moved.


The operation mode of the loading mechanism (MV) of 100-mm 2А70 guns, called the “series”, which allows sending another projectile to the bore without additional pressing of the button MZ, has not yet been worked out. The fact is that when operating in this mode, the locking mechanism of the locking arm of the projectile knocks inwards, which leads to a delay in firing. Moreover, the question is still not resolved - is this regime necessary at all? In my opinion, it is easy to do without him, and in some cases, the “series” mode can also do a disservice when it is urgently necessary to shoot with the wrong projectile that has already been automatically loaded into the gun. In the army, at least, they do not use it at all.

On the other hand, I am glad that there have been changes in the manual reloading system of the 30-mm gun 2А72 - the arrangement of the mechanism and its handle have changed for the better.

However, the mechanism of loading guns is far from the first place in the list of faults BMP-3. Here among the leaders is still the starter, the frequency of which is out of order for one reason or another is even ahead of malfunctions in the pump or hydro-volumetric transmission (GOP).

There are other minor technical details that were sometimes confused by personnel, for example, under the engine there are two nozzles, coming from the oil tank and from the coolant tank. Access to them is possible through the technological hatch, but they are located so that to replace the oil line, you must first disconnect the cooling system pipe and drain the coolant, and only then deal with the replacement of the oil line.

But it is very encouraging that the Kurgan plant listens to the opinion of the troops and gradually brings the car, constantly improving it, eliminating unpleasant moments, even if it is just the location of switches, toggle switches or instruments. For example, it was inconvenient, not looking up from the sight, to act with a ballistics switch on the block sight of the gunner-operator. Now they are putting up an updated block sight on the machines, the switch of the ballistics type has been removed from it and transferred to the left side of the turret tower so that the soldier could easily find it and switch without interrupting the view of the battlefield. At the base of the block sight a periscope appeared with a wider field of view than that of the sight.

There used to be such a disadvantage - with a long stay of the car without engine charging, the oil flowed into the engine cylinders, which, with insufficient training of the driver, resulted in a hydraulic shock. On the current models of the BMP-3 there is already a reversible oil pump, which first pumps the oil into the tank, and only then pumps it into the system - the threat of engine outage for this reason is almost a thing of the past.

The only wish that the gunners-operators from among the military personnel under contract to designers and manufacturers now state in conversations is: “Give us a more powerful sight, with a longer range of fire, the gun allows you to fire a long range, and the scope limits this possibility. Give a sight like a tank. "

The new leadership of the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation has decided to increase the number of hours devoted to technical training, as well as to restore the repair units in the structure of the crews. And this is already a positive thing, but the factory brigades are forced to eliminate even such faults as: oil leakage from the GOP; coolant flow from the thermostat; unlocked the limit switch angle; the limit switch of the hatch is bent; blown fuse.

But almost a quarter of the list of faults is occupied by such insignificant details that any driver can fix himself, provided that he is trained in this. I would have tried earlier one of the drivers to give a hint that he needs specialists from the plant to replace the fuse. At least he would have been ridiculed. What in combat conditions and on the march for this, too, we will wait for representatives of the plant?

Failure of the BMP-3 is really a lot, but let's look at the reasons for this.

The first is, as I said, the low level of training of personnel and the lack of everyday practice in the maintenance and operation of equipment.

The second is the increased intensity of conducting classes with the practical implementation of driving exercises. But the low technical literacy of the personnel has not disappeared anywhere! At the same time, there is no necessary maintenance during the operation of the BMP of the combat training group (UBG). They are simply driven into the tail and into the mane until they begin to crumble, and in return for the "dead" machines they put the equipment of a combat group that is waiting for the same fate.

Third, simultaneously with the content of the equipment of the combat training group, units contain counter-terrorism units, company and battalion tactical groups, which is especially important for formations and units of the North Caucasus (Southern) Military District. Apart from the fact that all the equipment of these units must be technically sound, it still cannot contain UBG machines, and hence the need to re-attach machines for staffing tactical groups - shuffling equipment between divisions. When a temporary worker sits on a car, it is difficult to expect from him a proper attitude towards the equipment entrusted to him. Not mine - not sorry. This is where unmanned rechargeable batteries appear, unsurpassed Durites, burnt and un-replaced fuses, bent and turned limit switches, flow of oils and liquids, which then lead to engine seizure or a tower mask break, unclosed hatches and traffic jams in the bottom of the car, due to which the cars drown during swimming. But the BMP-3 of the first batch came to the brigade not from the factory, but from parts of the Moscow Military District, where they were operated since 1990. It is they who fail in the first place.

But is it the fault of the car? First of all, it is the fault and shortcomings of the people who made such decisions.


And how to repair equipment, how to maintain it in the necessary technical condition, when spare parts are needed, but they are not? After all, someone must monitor the need for parts in spare parts, order them in the content agencies, keep records of faults, work performed and parts replaced. But of the entire technical part in the brigade, only the head of the armored service remained - this is also a consequence of the "optimization of the control system" in the troops. He alone is not enough to be at the same time in the fleet of combat vehicles, in the storage of equipment units, in the maintenance and repair center with the factory brigade, on the range and in the field park, as well as in the office to perform routine paperwork.

If you continue to list everything that has a very negative impact on the image of the car, then I am afraid that the article will turn out not about the BMP-3 itself, but about the problems of the army.

In the car laid a huge modernization potential. In particular, it easily fits into the network-centric management system - it is enough to provide it with appropriate means of receiving and exchanging information, navigation and telecommunications. The internal space of the BMP-3 allows you to put it all.

Already developed 100-mm guided shot of increased power with increased firing range, unguided 100-mm shot with high-explosive fragmentation projectile and increased firing range and 30-mm high-power armor-piercing projectile. Only the absence of the sight does not allow to increase the range of aimed shooting with the Arkan missile to 5500 m, and 100-mm OFS - to 7000 m.

It has long been the groundwork and to improve the security of the BMP-3: it can be equipped with dynamic protection, and active protection system, and generators of interference to remote means of detonation.

If you need a single base for the deployment of various weapons systems, the BMP-3 will do an excellent job with this. At its base, ATGM “Chrysanthemum”, SPTO “Sprut”, BRM “Lynx” have already been developed. But on the BMP-3 it is quite possible to place the weapons of the Nona and Vena, anti-aircraft complexes of various configurations, packages of the MLRS guides.

Maybe such a well-developed base has already appeared, which exceeds the base of the BMP-3 and foreign cars of this class? By no means. Kurganets is still under development.

An attempt to transfer the BMP to a wheel drive was initially doomed to failure, since the wheelbase is inferior to the track-type propulsion unit. This option is acceptable for action in the Arabian and Asian sands, but not in the conditions of our dirt, clay and road directions, replacing the roads themselves.

So the final question suggests itself: is it not too early that we are abandoning the car, which we didn’t even know to the end, for the sake of a new, but not yet approved project? Perhaps, it is worthwhile to start loading the industry with orders for a modernized BMP-3 with a high level of security and adapted for combat day and night in the conditions of a modern war? Then there will be time, money and opportunity for the development of the new BMP, which is ahead of everything existing in the world. It is only necessary to wait for the views of military science about what and what kind of infantry fighting vehicle the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation need, and then, I think, the matter of design thought will not be.
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  1. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 23 July 2013 08: 05 New
    38
    Many thanks to the author! One hundred theoretical articles - one article from practice and understanding becomes an order of magnitude higher. One feels that Comrade Korotkov is sincerely glad for the cause.
    The relevance of the slogan "Learn in military affairs in the present way" has not been canceled and will not be canceled.
    Thanks again!
    1. Rustam
      Rustam 23 July 2013 12: 27 New
      +4
      I won’t spray much

      The BMP-3 was at the forefront at the turn of the late 80s, mid 90s, in the yard 2013 and how unfortunate it is and the machine is morally obsolete

      at one time we discussed the situation with BMP-3 - http://topwar.ru/10696-otvergnutye-rossiyskimi-voennymi-bmp-3f-budut-priobreteny

      -indoneziey.html # comment-id-156894



      In the photo-Chinese BMP (copy of BMP-3) complex melon fully mastered in China
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 23 July 2013 16: 11 New
        +2
        And something in the world has appeared better? Unless CV90, but it does not have 100 mm.
        1. Blackgrifon
          Blackgrifon 23 July 2013 21: 48 New
          +7
          Quote: Avenger711
          morally outdated


          And progress does not stand still. On the other hand, none of the existing BMPs has a clear superiority over the Troika. Bradley has become obsolete a long time ago, and now it is technically inferior to our cars. Warrior - in its pure form, "mass grave of the infantry" - he is in his TTX one hezhe most of classmates. The most successful modern BMP - CV-90 - is really a good BM, but its performance characteristics do not exceed BMP-3.

          Another thing is that we have in the arsenal of the army a lot of old and certainly obsolete BMP-1/2. Here they should be modernized or replaced with BMP-3 for a long time, and there they’ll build something good soon too.
      2. vjhbc
        vjhbc 26 July 2013 23: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: Rustam
        I won’t spray much

        The BMP-3 was at the forefront at the turn of the late 80s, mid 90s, in the yard 2013 and how unfortunate it is and the machine is morally obsolete

        at one time we discussed the situation with BMP-3 - http://topwar.ru/10696-otvergnutye-rossiyskimi-voennymi-bmp-3f-budut-priobreteny


        -indoneziey.html # comment-id-156894



        In the photo-Chinese BMP (copy of BMP-3) complex melon fully mastered in China
    2. svp67
      svp67 23 July 2013 23: 58 New
      +8
      The author is not just THANKS- BRAVO !!!
    3. valerei
      valerei 25 July 2013 00: 37 New
      0
      As the saying goes: "Tell the generals that in England guns are not cleaned with bricks, otherwise they will not shoot." It's sad to read about our mess.
  2. Fox
    Fox 23 July 2013 08: 20 New
    30
    Here it was written by the REAL OFFICER! there’s nothing to add, only to parse into quotes.
    1. neznayka
      neznayka 23 July 2013 15: 43 New
      +2
      Nothing to add ...? Well then, I’ll try to ask if the author is who he claims to be ?.
      At the school (Omsk VOKU) we were taught on the BMP-2 and BTR-80, and in the troops the first machine that I had to master and operate was BMP-3.
      As far as I know, the first production vehicles in the army appeared in the year so in 1987-1988, by then
      (Omsk woku)
      10 years as an engineer.
      Who shot regular weapons and small arms from the airborne squads of these machines? I foresee one answer - no one.
      That's right - idiots (except for the author, if of course he did it at all) were no longer found. This is the situation in which he applied this skill? Normal people with fire contact dismount and disperse on the ground, and do not clog into one place restricting their maneuver and posing as a group target. Or did the author finish off the enemy after a nuclear strike?
      there is no need to aim, clinging to the machine, for this an aiming mark is provided in the sighting device arrow TNPO
      Yes? And where does this brand look relative to the trunk of a newly inserted machine?
      I remember how the exercise of shooting from small arms from the airborne compartment of the BMP-1 was performed
      There is no such exercise in the shooting course. And something I didn’t see the shooting areas for covering it, at least in Omsk and Yurg where the OTII cadets go for shooting there are no such areas. Maybe of course somewhere in the army .... but do you see the polygons are all standard (according to the album schemes). Etc. etc. - I’m tired of writing, if you can take apart the quotes by writing another article.
      PS In general, I strongly doubt the sincerity and 100% competence of the author - Zampotech is apparently good, but no more, but discusses the theater of operations, tactics of actions and ... in general, he does not really understand what. And the whole article is in the style of "what are you up to ... BMP-3, BMP-1,2 is even worse."
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 23 July 2013 16: 15 New
        +5
        That's right - idiots (except for the author, if of course he did it at all) were no longer found. This is the situation in which he applied this skill? Normal people with fire contact dismount and disperse on the ground, and do not clog into one place restricting their maneuver and posing as a group target. Or did the author finish off the enemy after a nuclear strike?


        The author correctly described everything how motorized infantry is fighting according to the charter. Accordingly, according to the charter, exercises are held. And if the Charter provides for the conduct of battle from the machine, then the machine will have loopholes and the personnel will practice shooting from them. In general, do not write nonsense, it may not be disgraced. I’m not going to look for a video of shooting from abmrazur, sorry, although recently I came across a different truth.
        1. neznayka
          neznayka 23 July 2013 17: 50 New
          +3
          1. For starters, at least read the very combat manual before referring to it. It says that the unit can advance on foot, on infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers) or on a landing on tanks (depending on a bunch of factors) and EVERYTHING. And not a word about the loopholes. Unlike you, I have this booklet on my desktop and in my commander’s bag (though I have other troops, but I’m also familiar with the ground).
          2. I won’t even stutter about the exercises - you’re obviously not competent (clarification of capital (for military) truths separately for you is not worth my efforts).
          3. Thanks to the delirium in my head, I (and everyone whom I commanded) are still alive and even walk on my feet. And I wish you to go into battle inside the armor and in no case to leave it under fire - you may get a hero, but be sure to be 100% posthumous.
          4. Video? Please poke your nose. Just make sure that this is not some kind of window dressing, but at least firing stage exercises, otherwise you can refer to some sort of Die Hard 4 or Rambo 3.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 23 July 2013 19: 54 New
            +1
            Do not waste time on it, the right word is not worth it. A comrade lives and breathes a theory, moreover, a theory of his own. And the practice wasn’t lying nearby.

            He is not aware that the armor serves to protect the fighter from the first strike or to deliver it to the landing point, and not to conduct a battle under it. He never shot a loophole and does not know how pointless it is.
          2. dustycat
            dustycat 24 July 2013 21: 29 New
            0
            On BMP3 rolled only in the practice of the radio P123 on the go.
            We drove on BMP2 - if you didn’t have time to set it up yet while accelerating along the track roll out to the training ground - do not try to set it up.
            BMP3 - limousine

            But I imagined ..
            The road in the forest ...
            The birds are chirping ... But they can not be heard because of the clatter of tracks.
            BZDYMS !!!! In front of the traveling BMP shows the bottom of the sun, having blown up on a land mine.
            Chilling !!!! Behind the crawling armored troop carrier depicts a bonfire.
            In the midst of the only surviving BMP3.
            Under concentrated fire 5-6 AK47, two PCs ... And grenade launchers reload their RPGs.
            And the surviving greyhound squad jumps out from behind the armor and crumbles around taking up a circular defense in accordance with the charter ... WHAT ???! IN W .. CHARTER! I want to live!
            And the surviving greyhound squad jumps out from behind the armor and crumbles around taking up a circular defense ... And who will NOT have time to occupy it under concentrated fire?! I WANT TO LIVE!
            And the surviving greyhound squad jumps out from behind the armor and scatters around ... Leaky bodies ?! I want to live !!
            And the surviving greyhound squad jumps out from behind the armor ... Where does it jump out?! Under concentrated fire, grinding paint along with the primer from the armor ?! I want to live !!!
            And the surviving squad ...
            And what is it with us?
            Ambrasurka?
            With a convenient sight?
            Well, well ... Wow ... where are they from! And the little mark fell on his forehead conveniently! minus one! Where is the next one? And what kind of bandage from an RPG is getting stuck because of hemp? Minus two. Machine gunner !!! Minus three !!! (well dreamed, well, what?)
            The surviving compartment is fired from behind the armor in white light as a pretty penny to the piece of iron.

            Why did it become so quiet ?!
            And you can hear the birds ...
            HEARING !!!!
            I'M ALIVE!!!!
            MOM I AM LIVING !!!! (Well then, not censorship and obscene, but emotionally joyful).
            (The last five lines are part of the story of a conscript 1994-1996 DMB after an ambush - a couple of "crocodiles" flew in - lucky).

            Everything else is the work of my imagination. Fortunately.
            None of them got out of his squad because of the armor even after they got into the tower from an RPG. (Minus two) After a series of RS, no one was found in the vicinity - the attackers disappeared. The ammunition for AKM74 ended with all survivors. Ten-zero is not in favor of the Russian army.

            By the way - the brand of sight in the observation device is really convenient. At least at the training ground.
            1. Rakti-kali
              Rakti-kali 25 July 2013 00: 04 New
              0
              Quote: dustycat
              But I imagined ..

              Well written ... beautiful ... But there are nuances.
              After all, fighting is not limited to ambush in a mountainous and wooded area. Yes, and in an ambush situation, “popping up and scattering” makes sense only if there is no way to get out of the fire. And to conduct aimed fire at a disguised enemy in the forest on the go ... - "no son, it's fantastic ...".
              And the grenade launcher is not a copper gun of the beginning of the 18th century - it is recharged very quickly.
              In addition, in most cases, entertaining shooting from a cozy mink through an embrasure is not provided at all, since an evil sergeant will eject you from there with the help of a good mother and a magic pendel at the turn of dismounting, for it is Charter.
              Quote: dustycat
              By the way - the brand of sight in the observation device is really convenient. At least at the training ground.

              At the training ground - yes ... especially if the directrix and the location of targets have already been studied.
              1. dustycat
                dustycat 9 August 2013 22: 04 New
                0
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                After all, fighting is not limited to ambush in a mountainous and wooded area.

                Maybe so, but those stories that I heard - most ambushes on the border of greenery or in it.
                There were stories in the city and in the village.
                They were very reluctant to tell who was there, in order to get to the details they had to wind their nerves into a fist.
                The main way to ambush - they knock down or blow up the ahead and closing transport in the narrowness of depriving maneuver - in fact, as the charter says. And then concentrated fire on all jumping out of the transports with the sequential finishing off the transports that have not yet been hit, if the number of ambushes allows.
                In such a situation, getting out of the fire is fantastic.

                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                And to conduct aimed fire at a disguised enemy in the forest on the go ... - "no son, it's fantastic ...".

                Is anyone arguing? On the knurled range and that is the problem.
                (at least you know the directrix at least not).
                Better than harassing fire will not work.
                But when on the spot - it’s very convenient. And very aptly even at extreme ranges.
                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                And the grenade launcher is not a copper gun of the beginning of the 18th century - it is recharged very quickly.

                Yes, how to say ...
                In the Ipatiev Monastery, inch-long little guns were often communized - larger-caliber heavy-eyed for 12 year old boys.
                Smoke gunpowder from store household goods is easy to chemicalize.
                Cartoons (even unitary ones) are also easy to build - if there was a head and hands to it.
                With bullets is more difficult, but also solvable.
                So they were having fun with firing who further fired from it on the river bank.
                Yes, who is more likely to make shots.
                In general, the reloading speed of the little guns is greatly underestimated.
                Maybe a couple of seconds and longer than the grenade launcher.
                Especially if you consider that all sorts of jewelry on the barrel of the gun is not just stuck. For example, biting a cap is not necessary at all - it’s more convenient to cut a trunk decoration on some.

                Quote: Rakti-Kali
                In addition, in most cases, entertaining shooting from a cozy mink through an embrasure is not provided at all, since an evil sergeant will eject you from there with the help of a good mother and a magic pendel at the turn of dismounting, for it is Charter.

                Yes, the charter. He tells the ammunition to be protected, not boots and CB.
                And even while reading the memoirs of the commander of the 159 fortified area and you understand where the BMX-1 TTX was born from, all the same laziness mother whispers in her ear ...
                Well, why the heck running for transport on gullies to run at the risk of dislocating legs ?! After all, it’s much faster and more comfortable to shoot from the board.
                Maybe not so aiming, but maneuverable.
                It was not for nothing that the Germans dismounted from their armored vehicles only resting against a blank defense or to clear trenches.
                And so they preferred to ride on the sides.
          3. MaksoMelan
            MaksoMelan 9 May 2016 13: 32 New
            0
            As far as I know, BMP 3 had the experience of breaking through an open place in the city and what there flew up to 10 RPGs in them. They had an arena! They themselves did not tell them to protrude, otherwise this arena boske them open. They survived and even a photo of this bmp 3 was somewhere!
      2. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 19: 04 New
        +6
        In all general schools in the first year they practice such exercises. If you studied at a tank engineering school, then this does not mean that this was not the case in Omsk combined arms.
        The aiming mark looks to where the machine is aimed - it is tested in practice. The cadets went to Yurga to shoot with cannon weapons, since in 1990 the BMP directress in the village of Svetly was closed due to the expansion of the airfield, since there was a danger that a stray shell could catch planes on the glide path. And to believe the author or not to believe is your personal right. That's just with the argumentation of your doubts something weakly obtained. As an officer-in-command and subsequently as a staff officer, I had the impression that it was from the command and staff staff that, by the will of the service, I worked quite closely with the BMP-3.
      3. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 21: 13 New
        +4
        We take the course of fire, open the section of the shooting exercises from small arms and read

        3st exercise
        Shooting through loopholes (on board) of military vehicles and from a motorcycle from short stops and on the move
        Objectives:
        - a manual anti-tank grenade launcher (target No. 9), appearing at an angle of 60–90 ° to the direction of travel for 40 s;
        - infantry group - five growth figures' (target No. 8) at the front 10 m in depth 5 m, appearing at an angle of 90 ° to the direction of movement for 30 s;
        - a trench 10 m long and 1 m wide, located to the right or left in front at an angle of 45-135 ° to the route of the vehicle at a distance of 15 m from it.
        Range to goals, m:
        The range to the target when throwing a hand grenade 40-15 m.
        Ammo Amount:
        - for machine guns and machine guns, cartridges 25, of which 6 with tracer bullets;
        —For a sniper rifle — there are 8 rounds, 3 of them with tracer bullets;
        - training and simulation grenades — 1 (during the exercise, it is not issued from the Kalashnikov machine gun).
        When shooting in the mountains, the provisions of Article 9 of the Firing Course, Part I.
        Shooting Position:
        - from machine guns, light machine guns - through loopholes of the starboard (left) side of the combat vehicle.
        When shooting from machines without loopholes, when performing exercises from a sniper rifle and a Kalashnikov machine gun, and when shooting at night from a machine gun and light machine guns with night sights, fire is fired on top of the side of the car;
        - from machine guns mounted on motorcycles - from the front bracket of the motorcycle stroller
        The movement of the car with respect to the target is flank or oblique, the movement of the motorcycle is frontal. The distance traveled from the opening line to the ceasefire line is 150 m.
        Time for firing: from issuing the “• Forward” command to the vehicle’s exit to the ceasefire line — 1 min 25 s.
        Motor resources: 0,8 km.
        Evaluation:
        - “excellent” - hit three targets, including a manual anti-tank grenade launcher, or two targets, including a manual anti-tank grenade launcher, and hit a grenade in the trench;
        - “good” - to hit two targets, including a manual anti-tank grenade launcher, or a manual anti-tank grenade launcher and hit a grenade in the trench;
        - “satisfactory” - hit two targets.
        Features of the exercise:
        - When performing exercises with machine guns and machine guns, fire on the infantry group is carried out on the move, on a manual anti-tank grenade launcher - from two short stops, from a sniper rifle for all purposes - from four short stops;
        - The exercise is performed by two trainees, one of which fires at the discovered targets, and the other throws a hand grenade at the trench, with the reverse movement of the machine, the trainee throwing a grenade fires from a weapon, and the shooter throws a grenade at the trench; a grenade hit is included in the assessment of the exercise performed by the student who hit the target with a grenade (grenades that are in the trench and grenades located on the parapet no further than 1 m from the walls of the trench are counted for the hit)
        When performing exercises from a Kalashnikov machine gun, a hand grenade does not throw and the score is determined only by the number of targets hit
        A hand grenade flies on the move when doing the exercise.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 23 July 2013 21: 30 New
          -4
          Theory is good. Try to hit the real target from the loophole in practice
          1. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 23 July 2013 21: 55 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            Try to hit the real target from the loophole in practice


            I always believed that the purpose of the loopholes in the BMP / BTR is not to defeat the enemy, but to create a "fire curtain" in an unforeseen situation, to press and not allow to aim at the BM.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 23 July 2013 23: 10 New
              -4
              De facto - the loophole is actually a relic.
          2. not good
            not good 24 July 2013 16: 49 New
            +1
            So for this exercise and invented, you need to train !!!!
        2. neznayka
          neznayka 23 July 2013 22: 27 New
          0
          Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
          We take the course of fire, open

          I agree was wrong. But it does not change my position as a whole.
          1. Dvu.ru-shnik
            Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 23: 31 New
            +8
            And no one is going to persuade you about something - don’t believe it - you don’t need to, but in your statements, be more careful now, otherwise you’ll be so easily misunderstood as it is now - it turns out that the author knows more about yours about Omsk, its schools and conditions for performing exercises in them.
            1. neznayka
              neznayka 24 July 2013 10: 20 New
              -3
              Keep moral doctrines to yourself, fortunately I do not need them. If I made a mistake with the presence of an exercise (I do not remember by heart “from cover to cover” firing courses, especially such less useful exercises), it does not mean that I am not right about the rest. In the article, along with really sensible things (purely technical), there are a lot of myths and frank guesses on the basis of which I conclude that the author did not participate directly in the database.
      4. Blackgrifon
        Blackgrifon 23 July 2013 21: 52 New
        +1
        Quote: neznayka
        Correctly


        Neznayka! Dear davat without rudeness.
      5. Alekseev
        Alekseev 24 July 2013 12: 45 New
        +4
        Does Neznayka confuse Omsk VOKU (closed in 1999) and tank engineering?
        Did he read (see) the shooting course?
        Or just doubts
        Quote: neznayka
        in sincerity and 100% competence of the author
        ? wink
    2. Blackgrifon
      Blackgrifon 23 July 2013 21: 50 New
      +4
      Quote: Fox
      Here it was written by the REAL OFFICER! there’s nothing to add, only to parse into quotes.


      Practitioners' articles are always more interesting to read.

      To the author - HUGE thanks for an interesting article.
  3. ups
    ups 23 July 2013 08: 35 New
    10
    Yes, I really want the voice of the author to be heard. And thanks a lot to him.
    1. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka 23 July 2013 13: 35 New
      +8
      Quote: ups
      Yes, I really want the voice of the author to be heard. And thanks a lot to him.

      The author is well done, there are no questions. But no one will listen to him, those who should listen to thoughts in another direction, they are not interested. They have other interests - financial.
  4. AlNick
    AlNick 23 July 2013 08: 52 New
    12
    Quote: Fox
    The fact is that among the so-called “experts” writing about “how bad our infantry fighting vehicles are” or “what kind of infantry fighting vehicles are needed by Russia”, I see pundits who are carefully studying the experience of world and national tank building, who know everything about ours, American and Israeli war machines.
    But they know all this only according to scientific articles and theories of each other.


    Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye! And the article is 100% good
  5. Lopatov
    Lopatov 23 July 2013 08: 54 New
    -8
    The article has a lot of juggling. Especially in terms of justifying the rear engine layout. What target audience was the author hoping for?
    1. Matroskin
      Matroskin 23 July 2013 09: 11 New
      +8
      Reseeding on the BMP-3, you immediately feel that centering and balancing on it, due to the transfer of the engine to the stern, have changed dramatically for the better


      The man is a practitioner. Surely he knows what he is writing about. An extremely sensible article.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 July 2013 09: 34 New
        -7
        I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.

        In addition, he has a phrase there:
        Reseeding on the BMP-3, you immediately feel that centering and balancing on it, due to the transfer of the engine to the stern, have changed dramatically for the better

        Damn, and BMP-1/2 and BMP-3 are floating, their center of gravity is located in the center of the car.
        What kind of change can we talk about?
        On BMP-3 put in the stern of the South African air conditioning. And when moving afloat, he had to compensate for bags of sand on the nose of the car. And here he drags the location of the engine.
        BMP-3 just has better suspension
        1. Matroskin
          Matroskin 23 July 2013 09: 50 New
          +3
          If instead of the fuel tank to place the engine and protect the crew with its price, how long will this extend the life of people? The machine, which has lost its mobility and power supply of all the power supply circuits of the instruments and control of armament due to the engine, is doomed to live on the battlefield for only a few seconds.

          The BMP-3 with a broken fuel tank, even if one of the crew members is lost, will be able to stand up for itself, and get out of the blow, and close itself and its troops with smoke. It is the increase in survivability of the BMP, its ability to continue to “snap” to the last, which allows us to save people's lives, and not the dubious gain of a few seconds at the cost of the life of the machine.


          Also an argument.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 23 July 2013 09: 56 New
            0
            Quote: Matroskin
            Also an argument.

            In favor of strengthening the reservation, no more. In addition, I’m just curious: how will a BMP-3 without a mechanic and control elements “escape from the blow” even if it has a working engine?
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 23 July 2013 10: 32 New
              +7
              Quote: Spade
              In favor of reinforcing reservations,

              So the BMP-3 had frontal armor reinforced (it holds 30mm shells), so the engine was removed back to balance the car.
              PS
              This is from the history of the machine.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 23 July 2013 10: 41 New
                0
                Strengthening the reservation in the lateral projection, which is now very in demand, the change in the DH can be stopped. But who knows what else? The new platforms will have a fairly heavy hydraulics ramp in the stern.

                So I believe that the rejection of the normal exit for the landing due to the mythical advantage of the rear engine arrangement is unjustified.
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 23 July 2013 11: 52 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Spade
                  So I believe that the rejection of the normal exit for the landing due to the mythical advantage of the rear engine arrangement is unjustified.

                  If you estimate how much time the crew travels and how much time it takes to get out of the car, then I think that the roll towards a more comfortable ride for the crew due to the fact that the exit has become less convenient (by the way, is not a fact that is worse) is justified.

                  In addition, I already wrote that the powerful frontal armor was only balanced by transferring the engine to the stern. That is, if the engine is removed in the nose, then normal front armor can not be seen.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 15 New
                    -4
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    If you estimate how much time the crew travels and how much time it takes to get out of the car, then the roll towards a more comfortable ride for the crew due to the fact that the exit has become less convenient (by the way, not the fact that worse) I think is justified

                    Please, facts confirming the impossibility of creating a comfortable environment for the crew and the landing force at the back exit to the studio.
                    1. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 23 July 2013 12: 37 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Spade
                      Please, facts confirming the impossibility of creating a comfortable environment for the crew and the landing force at the back exit to the studio.

                      winked And where did I write about this?
                      It was written that in the BMP-3 the crew is sitting in the center of the car, which is much more comfortable than if they were sitting at the end of the car. The fact that because of this a less convenient exit through the stern has become a matter of debate, although if that were the case, then driving for many hours with amenities is worth it to tolerate small amenities when leaving (although, personally, I don’t have these inconveniences I see)
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 42 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        And where did I write about this?

                        Do you not see the main message of the article?
                        Is it really not clear that this is a criticism of the promising Kurgan, because to prove that the BMP-3 is better than its predecessors is somewhat stupid?
                      2. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 13: 19 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Spade
                        Is it really not clear that this is a criticism of the promising Kurgan, because to prove that the BMP-3 is better than its predecessors is somewhat stupid?

                        I did not have the impression that they were criticizing Kurganets.
                        But the fact that the BMP-3 is most often blamed for far-fetched flaws - I have met this more than once. And then the opinion about the car from the consumer, first-hand and positive. By the way, a negative opinion is usually from theorists who did not sit in this machine.

                        The same story with our tanks: as a rule, people who see tanks except on TV usually criticize. But you read the opinion of soldiers and officers who fought on our tanks - so the vast majority of them only praise.
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 30 New
                        -5
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        I did not have the impression that they were criticizing Kurganets.

                        Dear, why then this article in general?
                      4. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 13: 52 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Spade
                        Dear, why then this article in general?

                        So in my memory, everyone wrote about BMP-3 to anyone but those who drove it. It was high time to write an article from a practitioner about one of the best-selling infantry fighting vehicles of our time.
                      5. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 05 New
                        -2
                        A newer car cannot be worse than an old one. To deny this is simply retrograde.
                        At the time of adoption, it was a cut above its predecessors. However, this does not mean that at the moment the time has not passed. And that it must be preferred to a new car.
                      6. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 16: 17 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Spade
                        And that it must be preferred to a new car.

                        Where did you get all this from? It is not written anywhere that it needs to be purchased instead of new machines that have not yet been created.
                        It’s another question, what to sit waiting for when new equipment will be created, and then suddenly it will immediately appear in regular numbers in the troops - it makes no sense.
                        Or are you for upgrading the BMP-1 to the BMP-2 level, which is now practiced for the Army, instead of buying a new BMP-3?
                      7. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 16: 24 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Or are you for upgrading the BMP-1 to the BMP-2 level, which is now practiced for the Army, instead of buying a new BMP-3

                        Nearly. I am for the installation of "Berezhkov" and BMP-1 and BMP-2. Plus computerization kits for machines. Plus enhanced booking.

                        Kits are already there, Berezhok is being installed in Algeria on its BMPs, and there are also reservation enhancement kits.





                      8. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 17: 35 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Spade
                        Nearly. I am for the installation of "Berezhkov" and BMP-1 and BMP-2. Plus computerization kits for machines. Plus enhanced booking.

                        Your opinion is very original:
                        write about the fact that the BMP-3 is outdated and it is not worth buying, at the same time you are for leaving the BMP1-2 in the troops, which completely lose to it in the crew’s security, armament, and mobility. Vobschem in everything.
                        Where is the logic ?
                      9. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 23 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Where is the logic ?

                        And the logic is that if you buy BMP-3 now, they should be in the troops until the end of their life cycle, that is, a very long time. Otherwise, it does not make sense.
                        Attention, a question: Why then do we need "Kurganets"? Why do you think that the infantry is more suitable machine, the production of which began 26 years ago?
                      10. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 18: 27 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Attention, a question: Why then do we need "Kurganets"? Why do you think that the infantry is more suitable machine, the production of which began 26 years ago?

                        And what prevents with the arrival of new equipment to bring the BMP-3 to the mobile reserve, where now probably ancient units are generally standing?
                      11. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 July 2013 19: 08 New
                        -4
                        Why are they needed in the mobile reserve? "what would be"? They have long failed to satisfy the requirements of a great war.
                      12. Pimply
                        Pimply 23 July 2013 20: 00 New
                        -6
                        Yes, in general, and not very small.
                      13. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 July 2013 20: 11 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Spade
                        Why are they needed in the mobile reserve? "what would be"? They have long failed to satisfy the requirements of a great war.

                        When I was serving, the officers said that we even had the T-34s in the reserve in the “cocoons”, and this was at a time when the GDR was armed with our T-80 group of forces.
                        About 5 years ago were ZIL-157 on conservation. I understand that the car is good, but is modern war not old.
                        A BMP-3, say, out of date for the reserve ...
      2. Vereshagin
        Vereshagin 23 July 2013 22: 46 New
        +5
        It seems to me that the article that the modernization potential of the three is far from exhausted. And it is short-sighted to spend budgetary funds on the creation of the next "wunderwaffe".
  • Evgeny_Lev
    Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 13: 25 New
    +1
    BMD (BTRD, Nona 2S9)
    Here's a fact, ride on them?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 29 New
      -2
      Only on "Rheostats." I am a groundman. Comfortable travel in it, I would definitely not call.
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 07 New
    +6
    The author of the article answered your question reasonably. And he is believed. For practitioner.
    Share how many times you loaded and dismounted with the BMP-3?
    How many of them are fully laid out and at the training ground, in conditions close to combat?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 16 New
      -5
      Quote: abrakadabre
      The author of the article answered your question reasonably. And he is believed. For practitioner.

      In the development of new weapons?
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 36 New
        +4
        To answer a question with a question during a discussion is bad form. You did not answer how many times you personally loaded and unloaded from the BMP-3
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 48 New
          -6
          I already wrote: I have never seen a BMP-3 in my eyes. Do you need a few repetitions?
        2. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 01 New
          +4
          No. Just while I am answering you in one thread of the discussion, you are writing in another. Only. Having one head, one screen, only two hands, I am physically unable to read and write from one account at once in all the sublits.
          laughing
          I suspect you too.
        3. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 08 New
          -2
          Look at the top of the page. There you have "My Comments" and "Unread" You do not know how to use it?
        4. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 39 New
          +1
          This does not negate the fact that while I am writing you the answer, you can write something else in a slightly different place. Like any sane person, I proceed to the next comment by adding my answer to the first.
          Elementary Watson!
  • dustycat
    dustycat 24 July 2013 21: 43 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    The new platforms will have a fairly heavy hydraulics ramp in the stern.


    And they will be ?!
    So far, as many as TEN (!!!!) BMD4M promise for the new year.
    That's when Armata will be - then we’ll just be hoping for what will be.
  • Lee
    Lee 23 July 2013 09: 59 New
    +6
    Quote: Spade
    I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.

    At MT-LB, the engine is located in the central part.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 10: 04 New
      -2
      Quote: LEE
      At MT-LB, the engine is located in the central part.

      Yah? But in my opinion, shifted towards the nose of the car from the center of gravity. Maybe you used the wrong drawings?
      Or confused with MT-LBU?
      1. Lee
        Lee 23 July 2013 10: 28 New
        +6
        Quote: Spade
        Yah? But in my opinion, shifted towards the nose of the car from the center of gravity.

        “Offset” does not mean bow position.
        Quote: Spade
        Or confused with MT-LBU?

        The location of the engine is the same.
        Quote: Spade
        I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.

        How can you compare MT-LB with BMP ???
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 10: 36 New
          -6
          Quote: LEE
          “Offset” does not mean bow position.

          However, the mythical "different alignment with a different arrangement of the engine should also influence.

          Quote: LEE
          The location of the engine is the same.

          No. MT-LBU has one rink more. Look at the drawings, where he was added. Both engines have three rollers behind the engine.

          Quote: LEE
          How can you compare MT-LB with BMP ???

          What about BMP-1/2 with BMP-3?
          1. Lee
            Lee 23 July 2013 10: 57 New
            +4
            Quote: Spade
            No. MT-LBU has one rink more. Look at the drawings, where he was added. Both engines have three rollers behind the engine.

            Which does not move the engine into the nose.
            Quote: Spade

            What about BMP-1/2 with BMP-3?

            But these are vehicles of the same class and purpose, the BMP-3 was to replace the BMP-1/2.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 11: 00 New
              -7
              Quote: LEE
              Which does not move the engine into the nose.

              No, it moves the engine closer to the center of gravity of the machine.


              Quote: LEE
              But these are vehicles of the same class and purpose, the BMP-3 was to replace the BMP-1/2.

              Is it possible in more detail? How is the "MT-LB class" fundamentally different from the "BMP-1/2/3 class"?
              I'm especially interested in handling. How should it be fundamentally different?
              1. Evgeny_Lev
                Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 11: 08 New
                +4
                Comrade, you probably didn’t ride either one or the other, did you?
                What specific management principles do you mean?
                Governing bodies?
                A control method (braking of onboard friction clutches)?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 11: 52 New
                  -3
                  In my battery in Ichkeria there were 2 MT-LBUs of the 12th complex, and 4 MT-LBs were attached for ammunition. Accordingly, dashed off on both to us .. and.

                  Quote: Evgeny_Lev
                  What specific management principles do you mean?

                  I'm talking about handling. Do you know this term? Or do you think that knowledge can be replaced with patriotism?
                2. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 12: 18 New
                  +4
                  Comrade, the term "controllability" is a subjective term.
                  I ask about management principles.

                  If the answer has been left to answer my questions, then I’ll answer you so, if you really had the experience of driving a metal and BMP, the question of principles did not arise. Their differences, stupidly, having looked under the mechanic hatch, can be seen, as it is basking, with their own eyes.

                  pysy. The number of TRANSPORTERS you have somewhere there, it is clear to me what number of infantry fighting vehicles you had in free driving, access, I did not understand.
                3. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 22 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Evgeny_Lev
                  Comrade, the term "controllability" is a subjective term.

                  However, this is the basis for the thesis about the advantages of rear engine positioning in the article. Do you think this is right?
                4. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 12: 32 New
                  10
                  I did not comment on the article; I comment on you.

                  Namely, your stupid statement about the location moved in front of the car.

                  Classification of the front location of the engine, not based on the cross section of the machine, but on the basis of the location of the crew, the crew sits in front of the engine or for.

                  You didn’t take behu nirazi, from which you don’t know what it “pecks”, and always, at the start, and when braking. In the latter case, it so happened that an unsuccessfully fighter who had armored for armor did not fly over the tower for small ones.
                5. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 45 New
                  -10
                  Quote: Evgeny_Lev
                  Namely, your stupid statement about the location moved in front of the car.

                  This is five !!!
                  Catch it a minute. I put them very infrequently, but you deserve it.
                6. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 13: 14 New
                  +2
                  Dude, there is a jamb in the word "produced", two words "armored vehicles" and "made" merged.
                  Therefore, the reference to the Shell below, as a refutation of my thesis on the classification of the anterior or posterior force department (i.e., dviglo) is not relevant and looks very VERY primitive.
                7. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 18 New
                  -5
                  Of course not relevant. And by the way, the BMP-3 also has a crew in front of the engine. She, along with tanks, you are ranked among the vehicles with a medium engine location?
                8. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 13: 29 New
                  +2
                  I think it's silly to have a conversation with you.


                  You about Ivan, and you about boob.

                  Songs about the participation of young ladies go better sing.
                9. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 48 New
                  -3
                  Accepted. Looks like the question is painfully complicated. Understand.
      2. A_Alex
        A_Alex 24 July 2013 00: 15 New
        +4
        Actually, MT-LB is a trivially easily booked tractor and no more. Beha is a fundamentally different type of equipment. I personally shot the same 2 point blank into a bolt from a Kalash, and besides scratches, she didn’t have anything! Matalaba can’t stand such mockery! Matalaba in all aspects is easier! Compare it with the BMP is not ethical!
  • Lee
    Lee 23 July 2013 11: 39 New
    +7
    Quote: Spade
    How does the "MT-LB class" differ fundamentally from the "BMP-1/2/3 class"

    How is the class "artillery tractor and carrier of calculation and ammunition" different from the class of "infantry fighting vehicle"?
    Quote: Spade
    I'm especially interested in handling. How should it be fundamentally different?

    Now imagine that the MT-LB was booked to BMP-3 level, and even the “Bahcha” module was loaded with a mass of 4 tons (and the MT-LB carrying capacity was 2,5 tons), and the assault force was loaded (+ 500 kg). How will it change?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 11: 55 New
      -6
      Quote: LEE
      How is the class "artillery tractor and carrier of calculation and ammunition" different from the class of "infantry fighting vehicle"?

      Exactly. What is the difference?


      Quote: LEE
      Now imagine that the MT-LB was booked to BMP-3 level, and even the “Bahcha” module was loaded with a mass of 4 tons (and the MT-LB carrying capacity was 2,5 tons), and the assault force was loaded (+ 500 kg). How will it change?

      And you imagine that the 3-mm D-122 hangs behind the BMP-30, or, even worse, the MT-12, which, when riding on an intersection, significantly tries to raise the stern.
    2. Lee
      Lee 23 July 2013 12: 06 New
      +4
      Quote: Spade
      And you imagine that the 3-mm D-122 hangs behind the BMP-30, or, even worse, the MT-12, which, when riding on an intersection, significantly tries to raise the stern.

      So what? MT-LB and is designed to tow guns, and not for combat.
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 16 New
      -5
      And nothing. Once again, what are the fundamentally different requirements for handling in these "classes of machines"
    4. Lee
      Lee 23 July 2013 12: 42 New
      +7
      Accurate and easy handling, as well as a smooth ride are necessary for the effective use of weapons, not to mention the landing party, the MT-LB does not need to actively maneuver on the battlefield and fire, a machine gun on it like this, "to support the pants."
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 23 July 2013 11: 57 New
    +3
    Quote: Spade
    Yah? But in my opinion, shifted towards the nose of the car from the center of gravity. Maybe you used the wrong drawings?
    Or confused with MT-LBU?

    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 18 New
      -4
      Thanks, I already posted. To see here the "central location of the engine", one must be very gifted.
  • dustycat
    dustycat 24 July 2013 21: 53 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: LEE
    At MT-LB, the engine is located in the central part.

    Yah? But in my opinion, shifted towards the nose of the car from the center of gravity. Can

    How many millimeters?
    Studying at DOSAAF Redoubt before an emergency, I did not notice this shift.
    And this is with a wind turbine mounted on the ass.
    You can still do something on the go in the front compartment.
    In the stern - only one thought - for more to grasp.
  • Dvu.ru-shnik
    Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 10: 35 New
    +3
    What if you went? Or maybe he also fought ... As a rule, officers serving in units using tracked vehicles, even out of simple curiosity, have time to try out all available equipment from the gas turbine engine to the tank. An exception is the air defense equipment — even the brothers in the feast are afraid to give it to the infantry officer for driving — they worry about the equipment.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 10: 43 New
      -6
      Of course I went, I'm sure of it. He just doesn’t mention it because it will not be much consistent with his conclusions about the unconditional advantage of the rear engine.
      1. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 11: 00 New
        +9
        And I think that about MTLB, in which the engine still has a central location, and the gearbox is located in the nose, not because it does not agree with his experience and statements, but because these are originally different machines created for completely different tasks . An infantry fighting vehicle is a battlefield machine with the appropriate armament designed specifically for combat, and not in order to dismiss an enemy DRG during a march. If you decipher the MTLB abbreviation, then its purpose will immediately become clear - the tractor is easily armored. For a tractor designed to transport towed guns, there is no need to place a fighting compartment in it, as in an infantry fighting vehicle or a tank, the very PKT, even without drives and stabilizers, is enough there. So to compare the dump truck with a truck crane simply did not make sense.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 11: 44 New
          -4
          Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
          BMP - a battlefield machine with the appropriate weapons, designed specifically for combat

          http://twower.livejournal.com/510949.html
          34th mountain brigade. Boxes
          1. Dvu.ru-shnik
            Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 17: 25 New
            +6
            But this is already from the song "You Can Stand Up Against the Bezrybe". These samples can not claim the title of BMP. For that matter, they installed such modules on Vodnik, but this does not mean that they automatically became infantry fighting vehicles. It’s just that in addition to MTLB in the mountains, there is very little equipment that passes, and in my service at 136 police brigade, when it still went as a mountain type, MTLB was nothing more than a mountain tractor. I saw these METELs with cannon armament in 33 mountain brigades. And if the level of MTLB protection is brought to the level of at least BMP-2, then there will simply not be any space left for the landing party, it is already almost completely occupied by the combat module there. So who is distorting the facts here - you or the author?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 26 New
              -2
              On the "Vodnik" ??? And he will not roll over with wheels from a 30-mm gun?

              Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
              But this is already from the song "You Can Stand Up Against the Bezrybe". These samples can not claim the title of BMP.

              However, no infantry fighting vehicle can compare with MT-LB in the mountains. They ride there, where the tanks get stuck. That's why they put such modules on them.
      2. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 27 New
        +6
        He just doesn’t mention it because it will not be much consistent with his conclusions about the unconditional advantage of the rear engine.
        In fact, the author does not set the task of setting the specific engine location as the best for all existing tracked vehicles, from a walking excavator to an MBT.
        Only you have fun.
        As black in light indicates in the article, it is BMPs of different generations that are compared. And only they. Other equipment with a caterpillar mover is not mentioned in the article. But you push it hard.
        Standard demagogic reception.
        With all due respect to your experience of riding the MLTB - troll detected!
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 32 New
          -9
          Quote: abrakadabre
          In fact, the author does not set the task of setting the specific location of the engine as the best for all existing tracked vehicles

          Damn, did you even read the article, or "not a reader, but a writer"?
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 46 New
            +8
            I AM? In the most attentive way. And you?
            Really slipped from your attention that the author speaks only about BMP. Neither about MLTB, nor about MBT, nor about self-propelled guns or TOS.
            And unlike you, the author writes “I used”, “I watched”, “I repaired”. Then you are "I think that the author ...", "it seems to me that ..."
            Do you feel the difference?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 09 New
              -7
              Quote: abrakadabre
              I AM? In the most attentive way. And you?

              Of course. And therefore, I perfectly understood the main idea of ​​the author: “We need to purchase BMP-3.” Have you noticed this?
              1. Dvu.ru-shnik
                Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 17: 29 New
                +7
                You just forgot to add - you need to purchase a BMP-3 AT THIS STAGE until you are ready and tested, having passed military and competitive tests, as well as experienced military operation (licked) of a new BMP. Let it be even TBMP, but BMP, which does not have childhood diseases, the tactics of which and place in battle formations are determined theoretically and practically run-in. This is what the author is talking about.
                Be really attentive and honest.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 29 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
                  need to purchase BMP-3 AT THIS STAGE

                  And what's next? Disarm before running out of resources? Are you squeezing money in your pocket?

                  Replacing the BMP-1/2 with BMP-3 in the troops means abandoning the Kurgan and any other equipment for infantry. This is a reinforced concrete fact.
                2. A_Alex
                  A_Alex 24 July 2013 00: 28 New
                  +5
                  1 and 2 it's time to replace! In the meantime, there are no sensible alternatives besides 3! And when another car comes to replace it, this is another question, so is it worth the wait until the remaining fleet 1-2 crumbles? The development of a new machine can take 5 and 10 or even 15 years, as it has already been repeatedly in our history.
                3. wasjasibirjac
                  wasjasibirjac 26 July 2013 14: 00 New
                  +2
                  and how many will they buy before the time when the Kurgan, 100, 200 or 1000, will go to the troops? and how many “kopecks” and “twos” we have in Armenia now? or do you think that the day after the adoption of Kurgan’s weapons, the director of the plant will be able to get all the required quantity from his "pocket". the process of saturation of troops will be lengthy and even the troika will have time to work out a resource, and if it does not have time, transfer it to training units or DOSAAF and let it serve there.
            2. yanus
              yanus 23 July 2013 20: 01 New
              +4
              Quote: Spade
              Quote: abrakadabre
              I AM? In the most attentive way. And you?

              Of course. And therefore, I perfectly understood the main idea of ​​the author: “We need to purchase BMP-3.” Have you noticed this?

              They didn’t try to baptize, when something seems? they say it helps))
            3. old man54
              old man54 24 July 2013 02: 23 New
              +3
              Quote: Spade
              And therefore, I perfectly understood the main idea of ​​the author: “We need to purchase BMP-3.” Have you noticed this?

              not actually "need to purchase" the author of the article writes, and "it is necessary to modernize the BMP-3" and then of course to buy, but for some reason you don’t want to see it, which is strange to me! winked
  • Evgeny_Lev
    Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 11: 03 New
    +5
    Minusyaka for “I’m sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which, despite the front position of the engine”

    KakBE in metalugi is not moving ahead, but a box, moving in the middle. To everything else that was said, “AFFtrams,” I will react with great skepticism of competence.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 04 New
      -6
      Quote: Evgeny_Lev
      KakBE in metalugi is not moving ahead, but a box, moving in the middle.

      Show in the drawing "the engine located in the middle" Otherwise, grab the well-deserved "minute" from me.
      1. Evgeny_Lev
        Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 12: 26 New
        +9
        Well, if it comes so tight, then come on.

        What is closer to the location of the engine in the metal, to the nose or the middle?
        I think it’s obvious that to her, because the back edge of the fork, just in the middle, passes.

        Now look what's in front of the car?
        Box.

        Fuck, stop here already spinning like that, I put, you minus you or not.
        But if you really had the experience of operating metal, you NEVER in your life would have said immediately, stating the placement of the engine in front of the machine.


        In the appendage, to call the dviglo “located in front” in the correct interpretation, without reference to the actual cross-section of the car, you can ONLY THEN WHEN THE MECHANISM AND CREW SITS FOR THE ENGINE, AND NOT BEFORE THEM, IN THE WAY OF THE AUTOMOTION.

        pysy. I apologize for the caps from the public.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 54 New
          -7
          Ykspert, where is the center of gravity of the machine, and how is the engine located in relation to it?

          Quote: Evgeny_Lev
          ONLY THEN WHEN THE MECHANISM AND CREW SITS BEYOND THE ENGINE, NOT BEFORE IT, BY THE AUTO MOTION.

          Cool. We look at the "wax". Are you sure that she does not have a front engine arrangement? After all, the crew sits in front of the engine
          1. Evgeny_Lev
            Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 13: 23 New
            +8
            I’m still somewhat like, with a stretch, I can be accepted for discussion of the driving characteristics of metal and behi, but Pantsyr is certainly Ales full.
            I don’t know who stuffed you with the pros and awarded such a high rank in the pursuit, but it seems to me that you do not deserve it.

            It is clear that for example, you can have knowledge in the navy or aviation and for that you have such a high "karma", you are a layman on the issue of armored vehicles.
            For example, I don’t get smart and don’t pull on the globe in matters of shipbuilding or aviation, I thought it was normal, you confirmed my opinion.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 36 New
              -6
              There are many words, little help. From specifics moved to personal attacks.

              Well, since, "Voshchina" we have with what engine location, given the fact that the crew in it sits in front of him.

              You need only one phrase. Either front-facing or mid-facing.

              Let us answer this simple question, and then engage in a fascinating discussion of me?
              1. Evgeny_Lev
                Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 15: 38 New
                +7
                But how not to go on to discuss specifically your personality, if it is your personality, and not some other person, being convicted of incompetence on the issue, trying to move out on an unreasonable, inapplicable article, example?

                I believe that it is your personality in this thread that has the right to be olfactory.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 57 New
                  -5
                  They go over to individuals when there are no arguments. When you want to maintain your sofa-patriotic impulse, but nothing.
                  Well, so how do you answer my simplest question?
                2. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 16: 54 New
                  +6
                  You see, I will read to you to indicate that you are stupid or incompetent in the matter (I have not regretted it at all), than taking an example from you, I disguise SPECIFIC ACHEIN of the 80th level under the argument.
                3. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 30 New
                  -3
                  We drove through. And the question seemed to be extremely simple.
      2. yanus
        yanus 23 July 2013 20: 08 New
        +6
        Quote: Spade
        Ykspert, where is the center of gravity of the machine, and how is the engine located in relation to it?

        In order to understand where the center of mass is located, it is necessary to consider not only the engine, body, fuel, etc., but also payload.
        The MTLB engine is almost in the center of mass.
        If you move the engine in the nose, an empty mtlb will nod. If you put it in the ass, then where is the "payload going"? If you fasten the trailer to the MTLB, then with the rear engine, it will lift its nose.
        You generally taught at the university how to count forces, moments of strength, etc.?
  • IRBIS
    IRBIS 23 July 2013 11: 20 New
    +8
    Quote: Spade
    I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.

    What are you speaking about? This is where you at MT-LB considered the front engine layout? Have you ever seen this car?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 05 New
      -7
      Quote: IRBIS
      Have you ever seen this car?

      And you?
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 23 July 2013 12: 59 New
        +5
        Quote: Spade
        And you?

        I even had the honor of serving on this machine. That's just the engine in front of her did not see ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 20 New
          -5
          Quote: IRBIS
          I even had the honor of serving on this machine.

          It’s completely different. Not to notice that the engine in the MT-LB is located in front of the center of gravity of the machine can only be blind.
          1. IRBIS
            IRBIS 23 July 2013 14: 37 New
            10
            Quote: Spade
            It’s completely different. Not to notice that the engine in the MT-LB is located in front of the center of gravity of the machine can only be blind.

            Right here on the site, type in the search engine "MT-LB" and read the technical description. If you are sighted, then pay attention to this description:
            "The layout of the MT-LB is somewhat unusual for Soviet tank construction, since the transmission in the tractor is located in front, and the engine is located in the middle of the vehicle with a slight offset to the left side."
            And the conversation was about the front location of the engine (see above), and not about the location of the engine in front of the center of gravity.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 48 New
              -8
              Quote: IRBIS
              And the conversation was about the front location of the engine (see above), and not about the location of the engine in front of the center of gravity.

              The conversation actually went on the effect of the location of the engine on the controllability of the machine. The author clearly indicates that only the rear location can provide it at a high level. However, it is not.

              Quote: IRBIS
              If you are sighted, then pay attention to this description:

              Wait. what is it about? It seems that you wrote that you know MT-LB, and now some quotes. Just imagine, you are standing on the armor, looking at the engine. Are you sure that it is located in the center of the machine?
              1. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 57 New
                +8
                The conversation actually went on the effect of the location of the engine on the controllability of the machine. The author clearly indicates that only the rear location can provide it at a high level.

                That provides driving comfort and combat shooting at a higher level compared to BMP-1 and BMP-2. With a sufficiently acceptable level of access when unloading drugs and the degree of security, so that this layout is viable.
                No more and no less. Be correct smile
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 06 New
                  -6
                  Yes, you forget about the BMP-1 and BMP-2 in general. Their problem is not at all in the layout. Have you ever seen how they are thrown at a sharp acceleration and a sudden stop? The placement of the engine has nothing to do with this - they are the same floating machines as the BMP-3. So, by default, the center of gravity of them all is located in the center.
                2. Evgeny_Lev
                  Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 17: 02 New
                  +6
                  Minusyak for the non-involvement of the center of mass (dvigla dvigla) to jerks during braking and starting, the second would be minced up for "Yes, forget about BMP-1 and BMP-2 in general" article as BE about them. And the third minute I would slap for "The placement of the engine has nothing to do with it - they are the same floating machines as the BMP-3", pay attention to the methods of movement afloat, the three have two rear movers, turns are made by opening / closing the shutters, two with a spear in geese they row.
                3. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 49 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Evgeny_Lev
                  Minusyaka for the non-involvement of the center of mass (sirech dvigla) to jerks during braking and starting

                  Where is the center of mass of the floating machine, the mount-minuser?
          2. IRBIS
            IRBIS 23 July 2013 16: 50 New
            +7
            Quote: Spade
            Wait. what is this about? It seems that you wrote that you know MT-LB, and now some quotes.

            Of course I know, I just can’t prove you right. Therefore, he resorted to the help of a technical description.
            I did not say that the engine is located in the center of the car - in the middle part, but not ahead, as you say.
            And I had more than fifty MT-LB and machines at this base, I served in the support division and I know this base very well.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 48 New
              -4
              Quote: IRBIS
              I did not say that the engine is located in the center of the car - in the middle part, but not ahead, as you say.

              Well, at least read something, stick Christmas trees. At least about the layout, front-engine, mid-engine and rear-engine
      2. Hon
        Hon 23 July 2013 18: 39 New
        +3
        Where is the engine?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 19: 12 New
          -5
          Here, but what?
          1. Hon
            Hon 25 July 2013 08: 11 New
            +1
            This ph is not the front of the car! If you open your eyes, you can see that the shape of the hatch in the bow and in this photo are different, the hatch which (the engine compartment cover) in the photo is in the middle of the car closer to the left edge.
        2. IRBIS
          IRBIS 24 July 2013 14: 37 New
          +3
          Quote: Hon
          Where is the engine?

          belay Stolen?
      3. yanus
        yanus 23 July 2013 20: 10 New
        +4
        Quote: Spade
        It’s completely different. Not to notice that the engine in the MT-LB is located in front of the center of gravity of the machine can only be blind.

        Bleat, the center of mass and the center of the body are two different things.
        Just like a Professor, whose cross section and EPR are the same ...
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 15 New
    +8
    I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.
    This is nothing more than your theory about the experience of the author.
    In addition, MT-LB is somewhat different for another, it differs somewhat in the composition of components and assemblies. And consequently on the nuances of weight distribution and behavior in motion. Yes, and on a bunch of other criteria.

    The author says: "I rode a lot on a motorcycle"
    You answered: "you probably rode a moped, which will give odds to any motorcycle on fuel consumption and the convenience of pulling out of a swampy ditch by one person"

    What is it all about? It smacks of demagogy. It doesn’t.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 38 New
      -7
      I can push a nail into the fence on MT-LB without dumping the fence itself. Can you do this on any vehicle of the BMP family?
      I ask you as a person with a claim to the title "practice".
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 15 New
        10
        Please quote my words, where do I say that I pretend to be a practitioner? Or the reverse of my statement. Please quote word for word, letter for letter. To avoid vague interpretations.
        My ability to drive any kind of transport, it doesn’t matter whether it’s man-made (equipment) or natural (such as a horse) is not the subject of discussion in this article. Consider this modesty.
        And then I’ll start to pester you with questions like: what kind of nail, and which fence, and if the fence is right behind the anti-tank ditch of a full profile, and if it’s in a swamp, and if it’s from a hill, and if there’s a dozen for a window glazing bead into a plywood fence ... See? So many questions for your soul can be mastered ...
        Therefore, we will not deviate from the topic: articles of Comrade. Boris Korotkov about HIS LONG-TERM EXPERIENCE in operating domestic Infantry Fighting Vehicles. And for the fact that his experience is of positive significance, they say both the author’s suffering argumentation and the reaction of most of the participants in the discussion.
      2. Evgeny_Lev
        Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 17: 09 New
        +5
        Minuska for show-offs.
        The organs and metal management system, allow anyone who has the strength to pull any vehicle on themselves to such a trick in the first position.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 23 July 2013 17: 47 New
          +5
          Quote: Evgeny_Lev
          Minuska for show-offs.
          The organs and metal management system, allow anyone who has the strength to pull any vehicle on themselves to such a trick in the first position.

          In principle, driving a nail into a tree with a tank body is also not a problem if the main clutch (clutch) is not controlled hydraulically, but manually (for example, T-55-62).
          Just get involved in this business is not worth it, as it’s easy to burn the main clutch.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 18: 59 New
          -4
          That is, the handling is excellent despite the rear engine layout, I understand correctly?
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin 23 July 2013 22: 39 New
    +7
    Let me disagree with you. To make it more clear, in the article I saw a look at the BMP-3 of a competent person, who could only become a person "working closely" with this type of weapon - a "textbook", as they are called in the troops. In the past, I also commanded a unit of training and combat vehicles, but only tanks and in practical matters of operation and combat use of tanks deep enough "in the subject." I had to “park” along with the infantry in the preparation of classes to overcome water barriers: tanks - under water, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers and MTLB - afloat. The equipment was being prepared, as they say, side by side. So, because of the front position of the engine on the BMP-1,2 and so that the car doesn’t “dive” to shift the center of gravity to the center, I'm sorry for the pun, the infantry on the BMP-1 put two (I saw it) into the landing squad on the left and right (I saw it myself) concrete railway sleepers of 300 kilograms each ... And you say: "their center of gravity is located in the center of the car."
    Now about MT-LB. During the exercises, as a senior officer, I had the opportunity to overtake the MT-LBU not so far, about 20 kilometers, along the tank route in a rotten winter. She has a rear right, as you know, an autonomous diesel power station in an armored box. So I’ve led enough BMPs and I’ll tell you from personal experience - I have “wild doubts” that “MT-LB will give odds to the entire BMP family”.
  • not good
    not good 24 July 2013 16: 55 New
    0
    Damn, the MT-LB engine is already in front, the designers need to say, otherwise they write in the descriptions a blizzard of the type: the engine is in the MIDDLE part with a little mixing to the left side !!! wassat
  • cooper
    cooper 23 July 2013 10: 56 New
    +1
    a plus, I don’t understand the word Chess, as a line of 30 mm guns can stop the T 80. This is from some Skazak.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 11: 02 New
      -1
      It will tear down everything that is not in the reserved space. Surveillance devices, remote control elements, etc. The tank will not be destroyed, but it will need to be withdrawn to the rear.
    2. Dvu.ru-shnik
      Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 11: 06 New
      +4
      However, even to the abrams, the mask of the gun was managed to be perforated.
  • IRBIS
    IRBIS 23 July 2013 11: 13 New
    17
    Quote: Spade
    Especially in terms of justifying the rear engine layout. What target audience was the author hoping for?

    For those who, during long marches on the BMP-1,2, vomited in the airborne squad from the constant and unbearable babble.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 23 July 2013 11: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: IRBIS
      For those who vomited during the long marches on the BMP-1,2 in the airborne squad


      good
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 06 New
      -6
      Quote: IRBIS
      For those who, during long marches on the BMP-1,2, vomited in the airborne squad from the constant and unbearable babble.

      Fairy tales of the Viennese forest? Tell me, Kali weasel, when was the last time we rode in combat units of the BMP 1/2/3?
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 23 July 2013 13: 05 New
        +4
        Quote: Spade
        Tell me, Kali weasel, when was the last time we rode in the combat units of the BMP 1 / 2 / 3?

        On "3" - when it was shown to the Indonesians with a view to selling it at the beginning of this century. A very decent car, I appreciate its naval modification of the BPM -3F. It is unfortunate that we do not have it.
        And the previous ones didn’t even have to ride, but to writhe when they interacted with the infantry. Fortunately, they have never been in service with us.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 22 New
          -5
          You know, to be honest, I can’t even imagine the infantry riding in the combat compartment of the BMP-2. Usually everything there was stuffed with them, so it was not possible to get into it.
    3. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 23 July 2013 12: 53 New
      -1
      Quote: IRBIS
      For those who, during long marches on the BMP-1,2, vomited in the airborne squad from the constant and unbearable babble.

      So there are many people who vomit in the intercity bus, not even because of alcohol abuse, but quite because of problems with the vestibular apparatus. And so that there was no "constant and unbearable babble." there should be more practice with mehans.
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 03 New
    +2
    How much did you personally drive this BMP? Share it.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 28 New
      -7
      No. Moreover, I have never seen her in my eyes. Because it could not be found in the army during the day with fire, especially in the Caucasus, where I served, where they only appeared after Serdyukov’s reforms. 58 A was enough for one brigade.

      And therefore, I see no reason in abandoning the "Kurgan" in favor of the BMP-3, for which the author so clearly advocates.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 13: 55 New
        +4
        How much did you personally drive this BMP? Share it.
        Quote: Spade
        No. Moreover, I have never seen her in my eyes.

        Well, this was what we had to start with. And the author saw, felt, rolled, disassembled and taught others how to do it all.
        Despite the heaps of minuses you deserve in the rest of the posts on this topic, I put you a plus for this particular post. For honesty and brevity of recognition.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 11 New
          -7
          You somehow selectively saw my post.

          It turns out, with my assertion, that the time of the BMP-3 has passed, and they do not need to be purchased. Do you agree?
      2. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 23 July 2013 15: 12 New
        +2
        Quote: Spade
        No. Moreover, I have never seen her in my eyes. Because it could not be found in the army during the day with fire, especially in the Caucasus

        MSB 74 OGVMSBR. 1995 year. The car is good, but a ramp with a hydraulic drive would not hurt.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 22 New
          -4
          I'm about the 58th army. Just appeared.
        2. Dvu.ru-shnik
          Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 21: 32 New
          +5
          The ramp has its drawbacks - it is good on flat terrain, for example in the desert, but how does a stump fall under it or when rushing without stopping completely over the stones you have to ride quietly? And try to manually raise the ramp in case of failure of the hydraulic actuator weakly?
          In no case do I detract from the advantages of the apparatus, but it is also not a panacea, it’s just now it’s become fashionable to promote everything American and Western, and our fault. The main advantage of stern doors and hatches is their simplicity and unpretentiousness.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 23 July 2013 23: 12 New
            -2
            For starters, ramps have considerable weight. On which a heavy car had walked before. Even if it didn’t go through, there are hydraulic boosters, and, as a rule, an additional door in the ramp itself. And they do not knowingly blame.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 23 July 2013 14: 34 New
    -8
    The author is nostalgic and lives on in the past. I counted on the cheers-patriots who would admire without hesitation.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 01 New
      -10
      I think so too. Plus, he plays into the hands of the owners of the Kurganmashzavod Mikhail Bolotin and Albert Bakov. They already sold BMD-4M supplies, now there is a struggle for BMP-3.
      Therefore, posting an article on the defense industry website of National Defense is not accidental.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 15: 17 New
        +8
        Hmm ... conspiracy theory ...
        That is, you say that in the event of a war here and now, and not in some abstract future, motorized riflemen would be better off fighting on the BMP-1 and BMP-2 exhausted resources, as on a more correct technique, rather than on the BMP-3 in view of its greater constructive flaw? And we must wait for the development of something new there, a certain, hypothetical amount of time, and not update the BMP fleet with more modern machines?
        At the same time, your statement about the conspiracy of Kurganmash is supported only by your confidence in your rightness.
        At the same time, you honestly admit that in your life you didn’t use it and didn’t even see BMP-3 in your eyes.
        Also, at the same time, you condemn the author of the article, who used this technique for the nth number of years and has an idea of ​​what it says.
        Funny ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 30 New
          -6
          Quote: abrakadabre
          Hmm ... conspiracy theory ...

          Refute what the catch is.


          Quote: abrakadabre
          That is, you say that in the event of a war here and now, and not in some abstract future, motorized riflemen would be better off fighting on the BMP-1 and BMP-2 exhausted resources, as on a more correct technique, rather than on the BMP-3

          No, I believe that it is necessary to modernize the BMP1 / 2/3 in the process of their overhaul and wait for the start of replacing them with the Kurganets. However, this option will not provide the Tractor Plants concern with high incomes.

          Quote: abrakadabre
          At the same time, your statement about the conspiracy of Kurganmash is supported only by your confidence in your rightness.

          Not only. Another fact of the start of procurement of BMD-4M, which does not suit the customer.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 23 July 2013 15: 44 New
        -6
        I don’t even want to talk about the BMD-4M. Coffins at the price of tanks. And everyone is happy - it has no analogues.

        Quote: Spade
        Therefore, posting an article on the defense industry website of National Defense is not accidental.

        Yes, of course. PR is such a thing.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 59 New
          -4
          An article appeared in the "News" section "Paratroopers will receive less BMD-4M due to the" collapse of cooperation ""

          The casket just opened.
        2. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 23 July 2013 18: 01 New
          +3
          Quote: Pimply
          I don’t even want to talk about the BMD-4M. Coffins at the price of tanks.

          About the price of BMD-4m said 100500 times ...
          No one will argue that most of the cost of the tank is its filling.
          Now we take this stuffing and put it in a more compact machine with a stabilized weapon module, with two guns, with the ability to shoot missiles through the barrel, and in the requirements we add weight restrictions, but with a high degree of protection for the crew. That is: we replace steel armor with aluminum, carbon fiber, and ceramics. We put all this economy on a hydropneumatic suspension. And to order a batch not 200 pieces, but 10 items per year, in which it is not profitable to buy equipment for the conveyor, only manual assembly.
          And where can the low price for products come from?
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 23 July 2013 21: 29 New
            -3
            Quote: Bad_gr
            Now we take this stuffing and put it in a more compact machine with a stabilized weapon module, with two guns, with the ability to shoot missiles through the barrel, and in the requirements we add weight restrictions, but with a high degree of protection for the crew. That is: we replace steel armor with aluminum, carbon fiber, and ceramics. We put all this economy on a hydropneumatic suspension. And to order a batch not 200 pieces, but 10 items per year, in which it is not profitable to buy equipment for the conveyor, only manual assembly.


            Does this particular machine become poorly mine protected, weak bulletproof, etc. from this smaller coffin? A reasonable decision in the situation looked
            a) the modernization of the current BMD-1 and BMD-2 before the arrival of new equipment
            b) giving the landing units on an ongoing basis heavier vehicles
            c) rethinking the very concept of landing troops.

            I do not see the purchase of BMD-4M machines reasonable. This is corruption, and lobbying the interests of a number of enterprises, and not care about the paratrooper.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 23 July 2013 23: 11 New
              +3
              Quote: Pimply
              Does this particular machine become poorly mine protected, weak bulletproof, etc. from this smaller coffin?

              What data is your opinion on the BMD-4m based on? or is it so, from the bulldozer said?

              There is a parallel thread about the German "Wiesel" (http://topwar.ru/1121-boevaya-desantnaya-mashina-vizel-i-vizel-2-wiesel.html), if it’s not difficult for you, unsubscribe there that he doesn’t hold explosives under a 6kg track - it’s very interesting how the Wizel fans will respond to this statement ...
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 23 July 2013 23: 14 New
                0
                Quote: Bad_gr
                it’s very interesting how the Wizel fans will react to this statement ...

                Say it is out of date. And the Germans are aware of this.
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 23 July 2013 23: 22 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Spade
                  And the Germans are aware of this.

                  .... and they transfer people from Wiesel to an armored personnel carrier, which is made on the basis of a heavy tank - how is a friend from Israel constantly advising you to do this?
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 23 July 2013 23: 37 New
                    0
                    German "Puma" in the combat version weighs 43 tons. “Boxer” is also not easy at all. Both cars are protected from undermining.
                    The Wizards have not yet found an alternative. However, paratroopers and huntsmen are given heavier equipment in both Afghanistan and the republics of the former Yugoslavia.
                    The British use the Jackals and the Snets as the basic chassis for heavy platoon weapons (support) - they have their own ideology.
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 24 July 2013 01: 06 New
                -3
                At least on what is in open data. And there, initially, the Defense Ministry expressed quite clearly, it is noted that the car is unified with BMP-3 by 80% - which also gives fairly clear ideas about the possibilities of booking, etc.

                Wiesel is used extremely limited, and is not the main machine at the landing. On BMD-shkahs, however, paratroopers are too often sent to conditions that are completely unsuitable for these machines.
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 24 July 2013 09: 52 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Pimply
                  initially clearly enough expressed by the MO

                  As an argument to cite the statements of representatives of the Serdyukovsky MO - this is not even funny. The most illiterate in the history of the country. To utter so much rubbish from high stands - it’s just right to put it in the book of Gines.

                  The paratroopers, however, only at the initial stage to BMP-4 were shading. After fine-tuning the machine (BMD-4m), they demanded its purchases, and said that it was completely satisfied with them.
  • sergey72
    sergey72 23 July 2013 09: 22 New
    +5
    The article is very accurate, I met BMP-3 myself back in 1987 ... The only thing I didn’t like then was the difficulty of landing, but this is a matter of habit. I am glad that the Kurganmash plant is sensitive to the wishes of the military. Article plus, thanks to the author and good luck!
    1. Dvu.ru-shnik
      Dvu.ru-shnik 5 June 2016 11: 45 New
      0
      Thank you for evaluating my labors and efforts. Today I undertook to look at the materials on my article, on the sites where the discussions were going on, and saw that all the gratitude and positive feedback came from those who actually dealt with armored vehicles.
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 23 July 2013 09: 23 New
    +7
    Good article, good-quality.
    It can be seen that it was written by a servant, not a know-it-all. Although there was a feeling that the editor of the military-industrial complex “corrected” it at the end, read it in one of the magazines.
    The center of mass and the suspension of the “troika” were initially at their best, this is not a “deuce”, plus the siduhs are located facing forward, not the side bench, it is really possible to carry long marches on it.

    ... in conditions of local conflicts in mountainous and wooded areas, for example, in the Chechen Republic, when motorized riflemen prefer to ride on armor rather than inside the car, the open hatches of the airborne squad turn into armored boards of a kind of open-top armored body ...
    Very sensible.
    Zadolbali already say that the army team ride on top and this is like a stone age.
    The fighters themselves will determine where they depend on the specific situation without anyone's advice. Give them a BMO-T, all the same, they will be “from above”, if necessary in this situation.
    Half a dozen pairs of eyes peering in different directions will scan the terrain faster than any devices and will instantly respond to danger, gnawed by fire. It’s they who will yell at the mehan to write faster, or vice versa, seek shelter - they quickly evaluate the situation correctly. Yes, and head over heels to fly off the armor and hit it aiming somehow handier than crawling out with square eyes into the light and watering at random, not understanding anything.
    There is an option of an additional set of hinged armor to it. That would be a pre-mine to her ... tady is possible and “crush mass” in it on the march.

    I have always been a supporter of heavy infantry fighting vehicles, but we also need the equipment in the form of the BMP-3, it is “imprisoned” for war, not “lokalka”. Each technique has its own purpose.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 09: 52 New
      -8
      Quote: Aleks tv
      The fighters themselves will determine where they can be depending on the specific situation without anyone's advice.

      I would not particularly hope for the prudence of the fighters.

      Here the matter is different, in mines. Well, in the insufficient training of commanders and mechanics. In Afghanistan, in order to stop the convoy, it was necessary to knock out the first car in a place where it cannot be bypassed. In Chechnya, there was enough queue from the bushes to stop the convoy and provide the most favored nation treatment for the militant grenade launchers.
      1. Evgeny_Lev
        Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 11: 12 New
        +6
        All fools alone are you D'Artagnan.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 08 New
          -4
          It may well be. Got into these situations?
          1. Evgeny_Lev
            Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 12: 38 New
            +5
            I honestly don’t know what kind of mechanics and orders the zelephans had, but when the column was moving, with the threat of shelling or having one, provided that it was possible to continue moving, the column was accelerated.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 56 New
              -1
              subject to the possibility of continued movement, the column is accelerated.


              Exactly. And here is a plus.
              However, a small problem arises: infantry on the armor. In the fall of 1999, under a Bamut tank in such a situation, leaving the fire, about .. l department sappers.
      2. IRBIS
        IRBIS 23 July 2013 11: 30 New
        +5
        Quote: Spade
        In Chechnya, there was enough queue from the bushes to stop the convoy and provide the most favored nation treatment for the militant grenade launchers.

        Well, about the “front” location of the engine in MT-LB, where you put it, I also understand that it’s not visible under the armor, but there is already too much of it.
        Judging by your phrase quoted by me, you have no idea what you are reasoning about and surely write about.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 12: 11 New
          -3
          You have the same question: have you fallen into this situation?
          What should be done when shelling a column?
          1. IRBIS
            IRBIS 23 July 2013 12: 58 New
            +4
            Quote: Spade
            You have the same question: have you fallen into this situation?

            Unfortunately, more than once.

            Quote: Spade
            What should be done when shelling a column?

            To begin with - learn the Combat Charter.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 July 2013 13: 10 New
              -2
              Quote: IRBIS
              To begin with - learn the Combat Charter.

              Perfectly. Let me find out what is written there?
              Is this not so?

              When an enemy attacks from an ambush, the crews of military vehicles open fire,
              install an aerosol curtain providing escort of escorted vehicles from the zone
              defeats
              dismounting personnel and repelling an attack.
              1. Jin
                Jin 23 July 2013 13: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                When an enemy attacks from an ambush, the crews of military vehicles open fire,
                install an aerosol curtain, ensuring the exit of escorted vehicles from the zone
                defeats, dismounting of personnel and repulsive attacks.


                It's cool, of course, right ... but you have to dump it, firing to suppress! smile correctly noticed, in the charter a lot of the “right” things are written, they just wrote for a long time ... not everything is relevant.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 01 New
                  0
                  Exactly. It’s enough just to fire “that way”. White Rhodesians in their armored cars installed two AK guns on the sides with electric traction. When ambushed, the driver clicked the toggle switches and accelerated. At the same time, the AKs began to shoot aimlessly at both sides of the road, firing at the store as a whole.

                  But here is the ficus picus: when infantry is on the armor, this course of action is problematic. Infantry is sending.

                  In addition, our columns are not immune from the stupidity of their superiors. It is enough to recall the column-driver Khrulyov near Tskhinvali. They did not accelerate; they stopped. Well, the Georgians were there, not the Chechens. Those would definitely burn this rear column.
              2. IRBIS
                IRBIS 23 July 2013 15: 00 New
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                Perfectly. Let me find out what is written there?
                Is this not so?

                No, not that. I was referring to the chapter 6 "March. Marching guard."
                And where did you quote from?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 July 2013 15: 16 New
                  -3
                  Quote: IRBIS
                  And where did you quote from?

                  Weird question. Maybe it’s worth you "To begin with - learn the Combat Manual" (c)
                  Part III, chapter six, § 363
          2. Jin
            Jin 23 July 2013 13: 15 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            What should be done when shelling a column?


            To leave from under fire. To block the columns and use the "clamp in the ass", well, now everyone knows. In Afghanistan, my "senior friend" received a medal for "unlocking" on the serpentine. Faced the head burning BMP, following it, into the abyss. What did he not have fur. He lost his mind and was stunned by the fire and pulled out of the hatch, since it was open (the heat and the charter were beaten everywhere) and he jumped at the helm ... For that, the medal saved a lot of lives. There were losses, but 80% of the drugs came out.
      3. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 23 July 2013 11: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Here the matter is different, in mines. Well, in the insufficient training of commanders and mechanics.


        I didn’t write about that. I had a little more in mind.
        But the minus is not from me.
      4. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 5 June 2016 12: 02 New
        0
        And for this, fathers-commanders exist
    2. Dvu.ru-shnik
      Dvu.ru-shnik 5 June 2016 11: 49 New
      0
      Thank you for your feedback.
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 23 July 2013 09: 25 New
    12
    ... On the one hand, they saved the army from tasks uncharacteristic of it - they gave all the repair of equipment to the factory structures, but on the other hand, we deprived the soldier of daily communication with the machine, not of studying the stand in the classroom, but of the living equipment assigned to it with all its individual features. The driver turned into an ordinary rider, unable to do anything but press on the pedals and turn the steering wheel ...
    Just one hundred points !!!
    More than once I wrote the statements of colleagues who continue to serve, that the mechanics have turned into “drivers”, clicking on the “pedals”. Straight word for word with the author.
    First - Nichrome do not have time to learn the technique for the period of service.
    Secondly - even cleaning the air filter makes them already a kind of pride of the professional masters.
    Sucking, sucking ... But it stopudovo stinks of state treason, when the repair base of the military unit was completely destroyed. Straight "riders", sour young ladies.
    - Uncle, are you from the factory?
    - Yes, son.
    - I have something that the machine will not start ...
    - And you on the sloth pos-s-al, son?
    - Yes, uncle, I wrote on the wheel, as you then advised, it still does not help ...
    Ugh.
    And in the “uncle” field we’ll call on the cell phone when the harp flies? Persuading the enemy to wait, like we are fighting in modern times? We have suctioning, we have seen, but not Khuhra-Mukhra, we need to understand such serious things - stop fighting, smoke break.
    Then both AZRs and the battery should be sealed, otherwise suddenly the fighters will not do so and the warranty will suffer, and so the "uncle" will run up in the battle and turn on the broken fuse, and everyone is happy ...
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 30 New
      +6
      Now, I was always wondering how it would look in real combat situations. When the manufacturer refines the equipment in three shifts according to the wartime schedule and is not able to service repairs on the theater of operations, the best personnel are mobilized to the front, supply systems under frequent missile and bomb strikes, and a logistic furry animal. The equipment leaves the battle more to replenish ammunition and fuel and lubricants. And the one that requires repair teams is in the zone of permanent shelling. At the same time, the repairmen themselves are winding along the entire front line like Savrasky.
      This is of course the ultimate scenario. But the previous system coped with this in the Second World War. And how will the new one work? I remember the German system was similar to this new one: equipment often had to be evacuated far to the rear. And what is the outcome?
    2. Jin
      Jin 23 July 2013 23: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: Aleks tv
      when will the gusli fly away?


      straight live rezanulo laughing Eh, I had to deal with this topic a couple of times ... I wish only the enemy) In theory, having pullers and relatively new tracks, everything is simple ... in fact, without pullers and with rusty, "stuck" iron in the trash, just zheskar. .. times they even threw up their armor (then they dragged it away with BREM) and bushes-ravines "to sebe". And what? Adventures on w * opu wait? She, well, nah ... It’s easier to catch Lyuli from the commander ... how much more are we to blame if the spare part is zero? But the boxes were not ours, only they arrived at the regiment, they overtook them, and here it is.
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 23 July 2013 09: 28 New
    13
    ... Maybe there is already a well-developed base that surpasses the BMP-3 base and foreign vehicles of this class? Not at all. Kurganets is still under development ...

    In general, it begins to appear to me that the odes about Armata, Kurganets and Boomerang are sung by our enemies. They blow into the ears of every snowstorm, describing the fantastic abilities of future projects. Well, right tracked submarines with the possibility of access to space. We laughed once with the Sparrow about it. Sanya "revealed" to me in secret that they would put ballistic missiles in the mines on Armata. And for some reason I felt sad that they did not lay in it the possibility of flying to Mars. Eheh.

    If they simply make good-quality platforms that meet modern and future requirements of military operations, and lay in them a huge (!!!) modernization potential - this will be the fulfillment of the plan, then this will be the machines of the 21st century.
    With two arms and legs FOR the latest technology, FOR unification.
    But you need to look at the situation soberly, and not diligently flush your brain with fantasies, drawing a rainbow picture with a happy and carefree service on miracle machines in a fabulous future.
    How much do they design Armata, Kurganets and Boomerang? And for the "adult" and not in words?
    And how much is needed, based on experience? And how much time should factory and state tests pass? And the pilot operation in the troops?
    That and that.
    Remember the accelerated adoption of the then-unique T-64. Oh, and the tankers drank with him ... As a result, they brought to mind and appeared reliable fighting vehicles in the form of a whole family.
    And the adoption of BMD? And the trial operation of the same BMP-3? Even in the Emirates I had to blush, though not for long, and in places.
    And the Arabs, by the way, are not stupid at all, having bought the BMP-3, although it was not just because of the dissatisfaction of the Amers.
    Not soon, the long-awaited news will go into series. And it will not soon be cured of the inevitable childhood diseases. Although this is what I want.

    In the meantime, there is what is.
    And while it is necessary to supply this equipment “here and right now”, saturating the troops with new weapons (damn it, with new ones, if there isn’t the latest yet, then the old one is already falling apart).
    There are T-90ms, Terminator, BMO-T (instead of TBMP), BMP-3, BTR-90 Rostock.
    There is a "Chrysanthemum", "Vienna", "Lynx".
    There is a BMD-4m, Octopus. There is much more.
    Well, give them right now to the troops.
    Zadolbali fairy tales.

    Do it now?
    Yes, but partially. These deliveries should be the same as they were in the Union - Regimental units (yes, at least call the brigade), and not the battalion as it is now.
    The fact is that the regiment set of the USSR includes both the repair and maintenance base of this equipment and the maximum unification with the technique of non-linear parts of the regiment, plus a training base and simulators. Principle: "the maximum number of plugs are plugged into all sockets."

    And when the new equipment is really ready and the question of unification arises, then the mobile reserve on BHVT has not been canceled and will not be canceled, let them serve there later. And they will not be able to drastically replace all equipment with the latest models in the troops, and these machines will at least hold out in the process of re-equipping with "novye".
    And then we dream of fairy tales, we don’t release what we have, but we really achieve an absolutely anachronism in the troops.
    But how else to do it?
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 23 July 2013 11: 27 New
      +5
      Quote: Aleks tv
      And then we dream of fairy tales, we don’t release what we have, but we really achieve an absolutely anachronism in the troops.
      These tales also heat up the CIA and State Department storytellers on the network (and not only), wailing and casting doubt on everything dangerous for the West. I am glad that an explanatory article has appeared, and thanks for your comments.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 23 July 2013 09: 35 New
    +3
    I have always been of the opinion that the true quality of a product can only be assessed by a practitioner, and if several practitioners express an opinion, then based on their arguments, one can deduce the truth and come to an ideal!
  • Dvu.ru-shnik
    Dvu.ru-shnik 23 July 2013 10: 07 New
    +1
    With your permission, while I get acquainted with the comments ...
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 23 July 2013 11: 36 New
    +2
    The author is undoubtedly right that the BMP-3 has advantages over the BMP-1/2, but the best enemy of the good. He did not use, for example, Puma, Namer or CV90 to make an unambiguous conclusion that the BMP-3 is better.
    PS: at the expense of sailing ... We have enough rivers and rivulets in Siberia, but the banks are mainly such that the BMP-3 just does not crawl out to the shore, and where it can not be a fact that it will be able to go further because nobody clears ahead will not cook ...
    1. Argon
      Argon 24 July 2013 00: 25 New
      -1
      My dear Nahuas on the march, the movement of the column is provided by engineering reconnaissance (chopping down prosiki, preparing crossings), with a forced march by reconnaissance brigades (watching a lanshaw, choosing a route, looking for places convenient for sailing). If you mean crossing a water barrier as part of a defensive line, then BMPs will take over the bridgehead after artillery preparation and aviation work, the coast will become gentle and loose, and there will simply be nothing to beat the prosiki.
  • sq
    sq 23 July 2013 11: 47 New
    +4
    Article 1000000+!
    It is clear that the best is the enemy of the good, but a titmouse in the hand is better than a crane in the sky. An example is the history of Soviet tank construction during the Second World War, more than once they have written. Further, if a man at the wheel does not want to know maximum about his technique, then this is not a man, but a kilo per head. And you will know the technique only when you not only ride on it, but also go through it with your own hands to the nut, read the entire primer, talk to people who know it better than you and digest the information received in your head.
    1. Dvu.ru-shnik
      Dvu.ru-shnik 5 June 2016 12: 06 New
      0
      Thank you for rating.
  • Normal
    Normal 23 July 2013 11: 52 New
    +3
    There is such a sin, I repent. I am an "expert" from those that the author has at the beginning of the article. Moreover, the "expert," as Kars has repeatedly proved to me, is very, very mediocre. Therefore, this article is for me. Very, very useful and necessary information, valuable opinion practice. Respect and gratitude to the author. "+"
  • Corsair
    Corsair 23 July 2013 12: 04 New
    +1
    Quote from the article:
    Failure of the BMP-3 is really a lot, but let's look at the reasons for this.

    The first is, as I said, the low level of training of personnel and the lack of everyday practice in the maintenance and operation of equipment.

    Clickable Image:
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2013 13: 25 New
    +1
    For example, I think the 100 mm barrel for the BMP will be too much (well, they do not use BMP constantly, in isolation from other fire weapons).
    With the support of the infantry, the last horseradish will come close to the enemy, you will need to hide from your shells (and away).

    82 mm automatic (type Cornflower) mortar with an expanded range of ammunition. Ammunition in three more can be found in cartridges, and not this stockade (carousel).
    And three mines instead of one shell are more effective. And it’s not difficult to put on the guides and through the hatch.
    1. Evgeny_Lev
      Evgeny_Lev 23 July 2013 13: 36 New
      +2
      On the go from a mortar, how to shoot?
    2. Argon
      Argon 24 July 2013 00: 31 New
      +1
      In Chechnya, especially the explosives had to wait up to 2 hours to wait for the artillery "support", and if there were 3 instead of "cents" they would have managed.
  • kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 23 July 2013 13: 30 New
    +6
    How much shit they poured and how much they are pouring on the t-34 now, and practice has shown objectively the best WWII tank, not without disease. I believe only the practices and the point, but for now they all say give BMP-3
  • sakmagon
    sakmagon 23 July 2013 13: 48 New
    +3
    Quote: Spade
    I am sure that this practitioner also rode on MT-LB. Which despite the front engine position will give odds to the entire BMP family.

    Do not disgrace the clown, you will find on the front of the engine put a box of vodka in front of the engine, there is a control compartment
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 14: 13 New
      -5
      Quote: sakmagon
      there is a management department ahead

      There is a box and clutches ahead. And not the management department. Ykspert such Ykspert ...
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 July 2013 14: 49 New
        +2
        I look it's time you and your opponent switch to slices of the bow of the car in millimeters. Like in medicine in tomography. And then you won’t come to a common denominator: what to consider “in front” and what “behind”. And so you can very accurately position everything: the 150th slice is such and such, the 357th ...
        laughing
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 23 July 2013 19: 28 New
          +3
          Dictionaries and encyclopedias on Academician




          1. ramsi
            ramsi 25 July 2013 20: 28 New
            0
            why doesn’t anyone classify by the leading asterisk? .. And then, about the center of mass, the location of the landing force and the engine
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2013 17: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: Evgeny_Lev
    On the go from a mortar, how to shoot?


    What’s stopping you? In general, I meant more caliber. It seems that from the BMP there is a desire to create an absolutely universal armored vehicles.

    Let the tanks be tanks (powerful defense, powerful weapon, small crew.

    BMPT - powerful defense, Spark 82/30. As an analogue (object 787), only in the center of the Spark 82 \ 30, on the sides there are 12,7 and 7,62 Spark machine guns on the one side and 14,5 with 7,62 on the other , 2. At the AGS tower, peter through the hatch. In the tower is the commander, operator and loader. Ahead of the right and left of the mechanical drive modules with machine guns and AGS (XNUMX soldiers)
    Organizationally included in the TB (in a platoon of 3 tanks 2 BMPTs - from HF, company for three + BMPT company).

    HEAVY. BMP - Powerful protection. tower like BMPT. airborne squad (loopholes) for 7-8 people.
    organizationally -1 company in the SME or 1 platoon in the MCP.

    Well, the usual BMP.

    And the commander may, depending on the situation, use this or that technique, and in any combination.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 23 July 2013 18: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: chenia
      In general, I meant more caliber. It seems that from the BMP there is a desire to create an absolutely universal armored vehicles.

      The “Bahcha-U” module is also popular abroad. They are purchased from us for installation on their armored vehicles.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 July 2013 19: 14 New
        -3
        For unification. These cars are used to replace half of the lacking analogs in the world and considered obsolete BMP-3 of the United Arab Emirates. The rest will be upgraded to BMP-3M
    2. Evgan
      Evgan 23 July 2013 22: 45 New
      +1
      In 2A70, the main (and, it seems, the only) type of shells is HE, and for their power, millimeters of caliber are very critical. Yes, and 82 mm ATGM will ... uh ... rather weak. On the other hand, the gun is not a tank, so 100 mm is probably the optimum.
  • MaKeNa
    MaKeNa 23 July 2013 17: 59 New
    +2
    Well done! Here's the opinion PRAK-TI-KA! And as they say, everything is learned in practice and the conclusions of the person who was in the BMP-3 both on fire and in water are worth a lot. Theorists shake their heads! Mounds make the car even better, you can.
  • za VDV
    za VDV 23 July 2013 20: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    An article appeared in the "News" section "Paratroopers will receive less BMD-4M due to the" collapse of cooperation ""

    The casket just opened.



    Satya Article! The Pskov division is already equipped with a BMD-4m 7-novorossiyskaya division too. the BMD1 roster was taken off the armament and it’s exactly there, the “Mass grave of the Landing Troop”. BMD was designed by Woman! It is noticeable there! Oil in Power is constantly accumulating no discharge! I have to scoop up! Constantly burning main clutch! What engineers have now fixed in BMD3 and 4, have facilitated the work of the Mechanics! The battery is not at all worth it! badly fastened so he falls right on the mech! But he is responsible for the life of the crew! The filling is great for Desant 4m cars. So it’s worth it! Or is it better to stint and ride on an IFV? there is a real coffin!
  • Jin
    Jin 23 July 2013 20: 43 New
    +2
    In short, I read, I do not cut "what the fuck is about." One of my military specialties: a mechanic-driver of an infantry fighting vehicle, was dusting on a “penny” about a two and a three I can’t say anything ... I didn’t even see the three alive. Here, the author of the article moved the topic, very correct in my opinion, that every country needs its own BMP. Israel- its, its states, I'm talking about the performance characteristics (who will understand the topic), their own. And it was very competently noticed about the strategy and the theater of database maintenance. Not a word about this in the comments. Dopipalis to comrade Lopatov where,, the engine is located! I climbed this MTLB from the landing to the PKT turret and now I don’t even remember where the dviglo sticks out ... Well, in the dispute the truth is born, if only the truth, or else some kind of slag ... Yes, my respected Lopatov, BMP you can also hammer a nail if you don’t throw the clutch pedal, but work like a clutch on a car (you need the skill), you can achieve awesome smoothness and lift your nose up when starting and do not twitch in the horizontal line. I am responsible for this. I’m waiting for debaters on this issue ... only practitioners, I ask the rest not to clog the air. A duel question and answer, without time to climb into a search engine ... although I already understand who breathes what.

    ps I will be in 10 minutes ... introductory
    1. Evgeny_Lev
      Evgeny_Lev 24 July 2013 10: 23 New
      +2
      On the port side, the wall past which you climbed from the airborne squad into the turret is just the wall of the blue squad.
  • Jin
    Jin 23 July 2013 21: 05 New
    0
    In touch ...
  • I think so
    I think so 23 July 2013 21: 25 New
    +2
    While the stools are making decisions in the Russian army, and now even the footcloths, no equipment can fight ... hopelessly ... Scientific companies ... Socks and boots instead of boots and footcloths ... Such an army is not that that a global war will not win, and a small local conflict will not pull ... Beautiful katrinki on TV from ostentatious exercises is not real combat work ...
  • Kir
    Kir 23 July 2013 21: 36 New
    +3
    I’ll make a reservation at once, not a practitioner or a military man, But the article honestly pleased me at least with a form of presentation without any advertising gadgets there, and most importantly it is correctly said that a real specialist should not be shy always and always learns, more than sure that such a commander is better served by subordinates and junior officers receive the correct school of communication with ordinary and junior in rank.
    Those who posted thanks and wishes for more such articles on the site.
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2013 22: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    The “Bahcha-U” module is also popular abroad. They are purchased from us for installation on their armored vehicles.


    Yes, I do not mind that certain units had such weapons. The nature of the tasks, conditions determines which technique to apply. And thank God if it is available.

    But the armament of conventional SMEs should not be excessive. These are the difficulties in using weapons, this is the load on the rear. And if necessary, occasionally use equipment with such quality, there are always means capable of replacing it at least temporarily.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 23 July 2013 22: 46 New
      +1
      Armament is not redundant. Automatic 30-mm guns are not very effective against entrenched infantry. 100mm HE shell is much better. The only option, much more expensive, is replacing with an automatic caliber> = 40 mm plus shells with electronic remote fuses. Which is much more expensive even than using similar 100 mm shells.

      So the device is very suitable, just requiring modernization. New SLA and more powerful ATGMs. Plus new ammunition from dist. undermining and preferably with ready-made ball-striking elements. Arrow-shaped, unfortunately, is impossible.
      1. Jin
        Jin 23 July 2013 23: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Armament is not redundant.


        + to you. Sparka 100mm + 30mm machine, can not be called excessive. The 73 mm “Thunder”, in the events of 95g, etc., proved to be insufficiently effective, and in Afghanistan, however, in view of the changed combat missions (the tactics for which this gun was installed and what (who) had to fight), and 30mm insufficient power of the high-explosive impact of ammunition, with the remaining pluses. So, the tandem 100 + 30 machine is very buzzing.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 July 2013 23: 48 New
          0
          We are also talking about the 40 mm. And a 57 mm automatic grenade launcher as the main weapon.


          Although the "Bahcea" for me is better.
          1. Jin
            Jin 24 July 2013 00: 03 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            We are also talking about the 40 mm. And a 57 mm automatic grenade launcher as the main weapon.


            I don’t quite understand ... Sense? Efficiency? What to do with it? Again, what will they order?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 24 July 2013 00: 14 New
              0
              On 40 mm: there is still the possibility of creating new shells, plus more armor penetration.
              By automatic grenade launcher, I don’t know. But sort of development is underway
      2. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 00: 16 New
        +1
        And you read the article again - there is also said about 100mm shells with distance-trajectory detonation.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 24 July 2013 00: 25 New
          0
          He is not the one you need. An electronic fuse and induction or other remote data entry into it are required. Otherwise, it is not effective.

          There are fuses. Induction data entry systems too. There isn’t enough desire to combine all this, adapt it to this LMS and start purchasing
          1. Dvu.ru-shnik
            Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 00: 46 New
            +1
            There will be smart shells - enough mind and master them. This is a matter of design thought. Just give them to the military practitioners, and there they will learn and invent something else that the designers themselves gasp when they find out how and why their inventions are used. And then another article will be written about this, which people who are familiar with the topic and Internet theoreticians will analyze here on the shelves ... This is not a question for the car, but for the ammunition - it would be nice to put thermobaric in the BC, and ATGM with invent two or three KBK with supersonic flight speed and range up to 30 km ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 24 July 2013 08: 52 New
              -1
              Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
              There will be smart shells - enough mind and master them.

              It is necessary to change the control system for the possibility of firing remotely controlled and with radio fuses. It is necessary to install remote data entry systems in fuses. It is necessary to purchase and supply these fuses to the troops.
              Training and mastering is the easiest step
              Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
              it would be nice to lay thermobaric in BC

              Only to ATGM
              1. Dvu.ru-shnik
                Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 10: 11 New
                +1
                OMS and now is changing for the better. Already in the troops there are BMP-3 with updated sights, rangefinders, thermal imagers and field computers. Work is in full swing - I see it on my 19th ombre.
                With regards to the TBBCH for ATGMs, what is the point of reducing the number of cumulative ammunition when there are not so many of them? In this situation, it is better to give a separate 100mm shell with TBBCH. The MZ conveyor is not a machine-gun belt, which can be increased indefinitely, and the non-mechanized combat station in the airborne compartment is designed only for the OFS, and the ATGM is slightly longer than the OFS, and therefore, it will not fit under the landing seats. By the way, like a fragmentation beam projectile, a projectile with a thermobric warhead for the BMP-3 has already been created. However, I think that this issue should be given to the Baumans and other ammunition for discussion, and we should leave the expectation of the results of their work, it’s too painful for us that the pennies are immeasurable with fifty dollars in this path.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 24 July 2013 11: 01 New
                  0
                  Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
                  Already in the troops there are BMP-3 with updated sights, rangefinders, thermal imagers and field computers.

                  And how many BMP-3M troops? As far as I know, not a single one.


                  Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
                  With regards to the TBBCH for ATGMs, what is the point of reducing the number of cumulative ammunition when there are not so many of them?

                  Because at the moment the appearance of thermobaric shells is impossible. Only ATGMs or rockets.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 24 July 2013 11: 06 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
                  The MZ conveyor is not a machine-gun belt, which can be increased indefinitely, and the non-mechanized combat station in the airborne compartment is designed only for the OFS, and the ATGM is slightly longer than the OFS, and therefore, it will not fit under the landing seats.

                  On the first BMP-3, shots to the main gun were located in the drum on the floor, horizontally. Now the “Bahcha-U” module is being installed where they are placed vertically and the entire ammunition, including ATGMs, is put in the conveyor.
                  After modernization, as I understand it, the combat module was not changed to Bahchu-U?
                  First option

                  Bahcha-U
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  • gallville
    gallville 23 July 2013 22: 22 New
    +1
    Quote: za VDV
    Pskov division is already equipped BMD-4m 7-novorossiyskaya division too.

    Since when? Here is the link where the epic dates with this machine are painted.
    http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/bmd-4m.html
    From her:
    24.07.2013
    Until the end of 2013, the airborne troops of Russia will receive two new BMD-4M airborne combat vehicles, and not ten, as was originally planned.

    According to BMP-3, at one time they wanted to unify all standard equipment on its base - if the collapse of the USSR could well have happened.

    In defense of MTLB, at its base there are almost all regimental link vehicles - a real unified platform.
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2013 23: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Armament is not redundant. Automatic 30-mm guns are not very effective against entrenched infantry. 100 mm


    And 3 mines 82mm instead of one 100mm. even more effective this time. And I repeat, you’re constantly going to use the BMP in isolation from other fire weapons, these are two (for some reason, the idea that it is one BMP that always needs to win a war, or at least a battle) is always dominant.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 00: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: chenia
      And 3 mines 82mm instead of one 100mm. more effective

      Why do you need them? There will be “Veins” with 120-mm mines that can be pulled out for direct fire;

      Quote: chenia
      And I repeat, are you constantly going to use BMP in isolation from other fire weapons, these are two

      It is precisely because of other fire weapons, namely tanks, that we need 100-mm guns. To destroy anti-tank weapons of the enemy in the trenches. Tank shell due to its low howitzer is not particularly effective here.

      The initial speed of the tank Of the projectile is 760 m / s, the RP of the Bahchi projectile is 250 m / s. Imagine the trajectory. What is more effective in trenching?
      1. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 24 July 2013 10: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        The initial speed of the tank Of the projectile is 760 m / s, the RP of the Bahchi projectile is 250 m / s. Imagine the trajectory. What is more effective in trenching?

        Nona?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 24 July 2013 11: 04 New
          0
          Mortars out of competition. However, we are discussing guns designed primarily for direct fire. “Nona” - “Host” has little sense in driving Mon. "Vienna" is possible, she has an MSS almost tank. However, the gun is not stabilized, so that shooting only from a place.
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 24 July 2013 15: 57 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            Mortars out of competition. However, we are discussing guns designed primarily for direct fire.

            And I mean, maybe it’s not worth crossing a bulldog with a rhino, but improving communication, management and interaction? Moreover, BUT for motorized riflemen often simply do not know how to shoot at targets with a small vertical projection.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 24 July 2013 16: 17 New
              0
              Quote: Rakti-Kali
              BUT motorized riflemen often simply do not know how to shoot at targets with a small vertical projection.

              They don’t know much. It is necessary to train. Direct-fire shooting on point targets is always much more effective than firing with closed fire. And to expel the "veins" on a direct fire is only in extreme cases.
    2. Jin
      Jin 24 July 2013 00: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: chenia
      And 3 mines 82mm instead of one 100mm. more effective


      what I thought for a long time what to write, how to formulate, I never came up with ... how did you define this? For what purposes, in what conditions, what ammunition?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 24 July 2013 00: 21 New
        0
        This is a hint of a “Cornflower” Quite a hemorrhoids thing. Requiring equipment for installation on BT as the main tool for new ammunition. Standard 82-mm mines need to be tied to them with long-range additional charges. Cloth bags with gunpowder. Accordingly, they can’t be stored equipped for a long time;
  • The comment was deleted.
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 23 July 2013 23: 58 New
    +2
    The article is sensible and professionally presented. it’s bad, of course, if a lieutenant from an old technique comes to a new one. need to learn again. but worst of all, when I studied using newer technology, and I have to serve on junk for which spare parts are not available.
  • A_Alex
    A_Alex 24 July 2013 00: 01 New
    +3
    No need to scold the author! man describes real things! Himself 3 years riding a BMP-2 truth in the tower but still! About comfort when driving, it’s true that they put on their headsets so that they would not split their foreheads! when marching along a shitty road, it rarely happened that someone did not catch a dolphin. When you start and stop jerking mercilessly! Shooting through the battlements is also a fact! About the exit through the aft doors I will mention briefly - this is pure sadism !!! Especially the machine gunner, who should sit at the very tower and go last from the side. About the loading system of the gun, too, the fact is commonplace ragged hands! In real life, when shooting from a cannon with full BK, there was such a fuss that BUT was often pulled out unconscious and pumped directly into the medical sambat! I won’t argue about the three, I didn’t see it myself, I didn’t feel it!
  • chenia
    chenia 24 July 2013 00: 25 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Why do you need them? There will be “Veins” with 120-mm mines that can be pulled out for direct fire;


    So I’m just talking about this, and also the artillery fire from the PDO, and the tanks are ahead. Or the whole war is just fighting in the mountainous and wooded area in isolation from the main forces.

    Quote: Spade
    , namely tanks, and need 100-mm guns. To destroy anti-tank weapons of the enemy in the trenches.


    Do you want to get a tank in the trench with this little squad (caliber is good, ballistics are rather weak)? The tactical standard - a tank in an ambush (in a trench) is equated to a fire support helicopter, can destroy 8-10 tanks (without using other OS against it).

    And I did not cancel the ATGM, open the hatch and put it on the guide.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 00: 37 New
      -1
      Quote: chenia
      You want this tanker (caliber is good, ballistics is rather weak) to get a tank in the trench.

      There are tanks for this. And the "fluffy" low ballistics (it is especially such to increase howitzer) shoots at anti-tank equipment in the trenches. Which are very many. In the US Motorized Infantry Division on the "Bradley" 2 full-time anti-tank systems. Plus manual anti-tank grenade launchers, which are replaced by ATGM "Predator" with a firing range of 800 m and the possibility of destruction from above on the span.

      Quote: chenia
      And I did not cancel the ATGM, open the hatch and put it on the guide.

      Or charge the cannon trunk
      1. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 24 July 2013 10: 08 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Or charge the cannon trunk

        Limiting the caliber of ATGMs to 100 mm is not the most pleasant moment.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 24 July 2013 11: 05 New
          0
          Very nasty. But wrap up the modern BMP-BTR is enough. On the tank, maybe lucky.
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 24 July 2013 15: 47 New
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            Very nasty. But wrap up the modern BMP-BTR is enough. On the tank, maybe lucky.

            On a modern tank - only if VERY lucky.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 24 July 2013 00: 48 New
    +2
    Who else would share their experiences from the BMP-3F and BMP-3M from their own experience.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 24 July 2013 01: 05 New
    +2
    I will willingly believe the author about the best weight distribution of the three. Initially, it was conceived not only for motorized rifles and marines, but also for the airborne forces. Even conducted tests on her parachute landing with the Fable. Therefore, the engine was moved aft. Otherwise, if an empty vehicle was thrown out (without landing and crew), the engine would overload the front of the vehicle when the platform left the ramp.
  • chenia
    chenia 24 July 2013 01: 11 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    This is a hint of a “Cornflower” Quite a hemorrhoids thing. Requiring equipment for installation on BT as the main tool for new ammunition. Standard 82-mm mines need to be tied to them with long-range additional charges


    Of course, you cannot set it as it is. the main thing is the caliber (and something like a vein), so that it is possible to fire both with shells and mines (here it is not necessary to have a variable charge, although the thing is very useful).


    Quote: Spade
    There are tanks for this. And the "fluffy" low ballistics (it is especially such to increase howitzer) shoots at anti-tank equipment in the trenches. Of which there are a lot


    Initially, I misunderstood the tank in the trench.
    But, as I said about 3 mines.
    A charge (full) can be on a mine in a waterproof sleeve, the latter is removed before the shot. Or like a torn annular disk over a hill. one charge in one package. And our bundles are really an anachronism. (although maybe we have come up with something, I have long been out of work).
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 08: 56 New
      0
      Quote: chenia
      Of course, you cannot set it as it is. the main thing is the caliber (and something like a vein), so that it is possible to fire both with shells and mines (here it is not necessary to have a variable charge, although the thing is very useful).

      What's the point? In the Russian Army, 82-mm mortars remain only with the airborne forces, marines, mountain and air assault units.

      And here, in fact, we need a new mortar with new ammunition. Why, if there are already established in production?
  • Dvu.ru-shnik
    Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 01: 21 New
    +2
    In the course of military tests, which were carried out on the basis of 228 MSPs, comparative firing was conducted in TurkWo. With the same number of barrels (6 BMP-3 and 6 120 mm mortars), the advantage turned out to be on the side of the BMP, since its shells exploded not only on the ground, but also in the air above the target. The area of ​​destruction and the percentage of destruction of each target was higher than that of the mortar battery and 2C1 battery.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 08: 57 New
      0
      Spherocone tests. From the category "the better to hammer nails with a hammer or a meat grinder"
      1. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 09: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Spherocone tests. From the category "the better to hammer nails with a hammer or a meat grinder"

        Speaking in your language, it’s rather - "Is it possible to hammer a nail with such a meat grinder?"
        Speaking normally, we evaluated the effectiveness of armament of infantry fighting vehicles under various conditions in comparison with similar systems in caliber. After all, you need to know all the features of the machine, and not just what was originally in the TTZ.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 24 July 2013 11: 07 New
          0
          They tried to prove effectiveness, significantly reducing the effectiveness of art. systems, putting them at a known disadvantage.
  • chenia
    chenia 24 July 2013 02: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
    because her shells exploded not only on the ground, but also in the air above the target.


    Does the system have a remote fuse or radio fuse? If so, then the M-120 and Carnation
    it is also available. Or firing BMPs using these means, and the mortar and 2C1 in slow motion, then YES.
    1. Dvu.ru-shnik
      Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 08: 30 New
      +1
      A projectile with a radio fuse, so the position on the ballistic switch is designated as P-100. Efficiency of fire was compared by many indicators, including rate of fire, accuracy and degree of damage. The fire was fired half-direct and from closed positions. In both cases, the BMP-3 won. There, and at the same time, the BMP-3 and T-80 fires were compared. At that time, when firing a platoon and company, the results of the BMP-3 were higher than that of the T-80.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 09: 01 New
      -1
      They simply chose such a range and such a charge on 2C1 that the BMP-3 fired on ricochets, but 2C1 did not. Ordinary swindle.
      And the shooting was probably conducted with a PDO at mortar and howitzer batteries and direct fire from infantry.
      1. Dvu.ru-shnik
        Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 09: 07 New
        +2
        Shooting was conducted half-line and with closed ranges of up to 4 km. So first think, and then say - what might be the rebound in mortar shooting with a radio fuse?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 24 July 2013 09: 23 New
          0
          Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
          So first think, and then say what kind of rebound during mortar shooting with a radio fuse?

          Oh pa !!! And who is there engaged in such a wild masturbation? Mortar shooting with a radio fuse ... It’s necessary to pick up such a commander of a self-propelled battery! Or was it the requirement of the organizers of comparative "trials"?

          2S1 when firing at ranges up to 4 km on all charges gives a rebound. The usual cheap fuse. So most of her shells had to explode in the air. The only way to deal with this (most likely used by the organizers) is to shoot at the factory settings of the fuse.
          The same on mortars - the factory setting of the fuse and the high-explosive action of a mine. They would put on a fragment at mortars and on a slower one at 2С1, and a 100-mm gun would show its failure in comparison with normal artillery systems.
  • chenia
    chenia 24 July 2013 09: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
    The fire was fired half-direct and from closed positions. In both cases, the BMP-3 won.


    This cannot be because it can never be. When comparing, there should be equal conditions. You shoot a projectile of increased power then everyone should shoot from this type of projectile, with ready-to-use striking elements or on air bombings, the conditions are the same (otherwise the ammunition is simply compared). You ask any woman what is more effective than 100 or 120-122 and she will not be mistaken. Why, because THICK. laughing
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 09: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: chenia
      Why, because THICK.

      At exactly laughing

      In addition, a 120-mm mine with the installation of a fuse on a splinter makes any artillery shell because of the peculiarities of its action at a target. Even 152 mm.
  • Dvu.ru-shnik
    Dvu.ru-shnik 24 July 2013 09: 47 New
    +1
    This is at first glance.
    BMV won against “Carnation” due to the fact that it has a thinner shell and gives a larger number of fragments, rather than fragments of half the size of a shell. Therefore, the explosive charge is slightly larger than that of a 122mm projectile.
    The 120mm mortar won due to the fact that the mine, although it is made of steel cast iron, has a smaller total useful volume than the 100mm OFS, since it has a shank and thicker walls. The trajectory at small and medium ranges is almost the same.
    Now the situation is even more advantageous for the BMP-3 - now it also has a shell with ready-made slaughter elements (shrapnel in nature). Now the main opponent in such conditions for the three are Nona and Vienna.
    When the first states of the brigades arrived during the reform and transfer to the brigade system, then the MSS mortar batteries were supposed to be on Nonah, but then additions to the states began to arrive, in which they were prescribed - to contain 120mm mortars before the Non arrived. As usual - they wanted the best, but it turned out, as always.
    Just do not think that I stand for the rearmament of artillery on the BMP-3, in any case. This is at ranges up to 4 km BMP can in some cases make up for the lack of artillery, but to replace it - no-no - they have different tasks, and therefore the performance characteristics are geared for their implementation. The main task of artillery systems is to prohibit the deployment and deployment of enemy forces with fire damage on routes and lines, as well as fire support for the advancement of their troops. The task of the BMP is transportation and direct fire support of its unit. Hence the whole difference. Each machine must carry out its tasks. But the fact that the BMP-3 fire turned out to be comparable in its effectiveness to the fire of 120mm mortars and 122mm howitzers at such ranges is a fact revealed precisely during those military tests.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 24 July 2013 10: 09 New
      +1
      Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
      BMV won against “Carnation” due to the fact that it has a thinner shell and gives a greater number of fragments

      On the contrary. Increasing the fill factor (thinner walls) increases the explosiveness and reduces the fragmentation effect of the target.

      Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
      The 120mm mortar won due to the fact that the mine, although it is made of steel cast iron, has a smaller total useful volume than the 100mm OFS, since it has a shank and thicker walls. The trajectory at small and medium ranges is almost the same.

      But the mine due to the features of its trajectory has an almost perfect spread of fragments. And thanks to its thick walls there are a lot of these fragments. Well, the shank ... It flies up. And then what? That's right, there is no enemy.
      Well, about the trajectory ... Sorry, but this is complete nonsense.

      Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
      Now the situation is even more advantageous for the BMP-3 - now it also has a shell with ready-made slaughter elements

      But from this moment, in more detail. What projectile, when put into service, the type of ready-to-use striking elements.

      Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
      But the fact that the BMP-3 fire turned out to be comparable in its effectiveness to the fire of 120mm mortars and 122mm howitzers at such ranges is a fact revealed precisely during those military tests.

      Is not a fact. A clear swindle. Judging by your reports about these tests, the artillery systems were placed in extremely unfavorable conditions, and on the contrary, the most favored nation was granted a 100 mm gun.
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  • Kukota
    Kukota 24 July 2013 10: 25 New
    +2
    Inspired by the above comments:

    The American forum asked a question, they will answer you thoroughly and politely.
    Jewish forum - asked a question, you will be asked a counter question.
    Russian forum-asked a question, they will explain to you 2 hours what kind of mud.ak!
    smile
  • chenia
    chenia 24 July 2013 10: 46 New
    0
    Quote: Dvu.ru-shnik
    BMV won against “Carnation” due to the fact that it has a thinner shell and gives a larger number of fragments, rather than fragments of half the size of a shell. Therefore, the explosive charge is slightly larger than that of a 122mm projectile.


    This only confirms the need to improve the ammunition. For 2C1, it is also important to select a charge for a given range (meeting angle).

    And about the mines. You probably saw how the funnel is filled with iron (1 \ 3) fragments, well, this is a high-explosive action. On a fragmentation fragment for any projectile, it is slightly smaller, and on a mine there is almost none (fragmentation and delayed during normal firing are prohibited, the first is TB, the second is to not disfigure the range).

    Also, the distribution of shell fragments is inferior to a mine (shovels of rights). With a slight shortage, the effect is maximum, while flying it is minimal (By the way, it is also a comparison factor, for lobbying with a smart ass and this can be used).
  • xolod_22
    xolod_22 15 May 2014 08: 45 New
    0
    Thank you for the article, that rare case when the person who served on it writes about the technology.
  • Dvu.ru-shnik
    Dvu.ru-shnik 27 May 2015 16: 07 New
    +1
    I wholeheartedly thank ALL for such a heated discussion of my article.
    When Denis Mokrushin literally persuaded me to write it, then Mr. Serdyukov was at the post of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, now the leadership has changed and there have been many positive changes, which I will say a little below.
    When traveling from Novosibirsk to Vladikavkaz by car (the article has already been published and discussed by you), then I drove to Kurgan on the way, where I had the honor to talk with one of the designers of the plant. He then said that we will see the Kurgan in the finished and worked out version in 10-15 years.
    It was in 2013 year.
    At the current Victory Parade, we saw a new car.
    She swims and is well protected.
    As for my favorite BMP-3, then for you and me, the Ministry of Defense in its current form and with the current leadership put an end to the discussion.
    As TASS reported on May 12, 2015, the Russian Ministry of Defense and the Tractor Plants concern signed a contract for the supply of several hundred BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles. This was reported by TASS vice president and co-owner of the concern Albert Bakov.
    "We signed a three-year contract with the Ministry of Defense for BMP-3. The number is in the hundreds of vehicles," the agency’s source said.
    According to him, during the serial production of BMP-3, over 1,5 improvements were made to the design of the armored car.
    Bakov also said that the Kurganmashzavod, part of the Tractor Plants, will continue to fulfill the order of the military for the supply of BMP-3 until the completion of development work on the Kurganets-25 platform and the organization of serial production of new generation infantry fighting vehicles based on it .

    No one says that the BMP-3 is an ideal machine, that it must combine all existing and possible systems from a conveyor to an MLRS, that it is necessary to close only to its purchases. Not at all, but it pleases me that the current leadership has found such a solution, of which I spoke here.
    Of course, I am far from the opinion that my article encouraged someone to make such a decision, but I am already glad that my thoughts were in tune with him.
    Once again I say to everyone - THANKS MUCH FOR DISCUSSION AND REVIEWS.
  • MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 9 May 2016 14: 35 New
    0
    Here is an interesting story! Scroll to bmp3 http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/1021275/Suvorov_-_Boevye_mashiny_pehoty
    _BMP-1, _BMP-2_i_BMP-3.html
  • Recoil
    Recoil 15 August 2018 19: 25 New
    0
    Combat officers need to write articles.
    Thanks, author.
  • Sweetheart
    Sweetheart 15 August 2018 19: 56 New
    -1
    Excellent article.
    Subscribe to each paragraph
    .And if someone is not careful, the author clearly indicates that it is time to restore the remorgan as it was and increase the role of the ZKV. And not follow the ugly heart of Serdyukin and its outcome, all the technical literacy of M \ B, commanders, is reduced to zero, they rely only on representatives of industry , but this is not permissible.
  • Romario_Argo
    Romario_Argo 19 October 2019 19: 47 New
    0
    great article