Created experimental chassis with hybrid power plant and electric transmission

Recently it became known that the “Military Industrial Company” has created and tested a new armored vehicle. The experimental wheeled chassis, created as part of the Krymsk research project, is significantly different from all the armored vehicles currently used on wheels. The fact is that the experimental machine is equipped with a hybrid power plant and an electric transmission, which, as expected, can give noticeable advantages when used in practice.

Information Agency "Rosinformbyuro" quoted the head of the project "Krymsk" V. Rudin. According to the published data, the experimental chassis is built on the basis of the hull and undercarriage of the BTR-90 “Rostok” armored personnel carrier, but it is equipped with the original powerplant and transmission. These units are made according to the “sequential hybrid” scheme. The basis of the experimental machine's power plant is the YMZ-650.10 diesel engine, produced at the Avtodiesel engine plant in Yaroslavl. Engine power for technical reasons is limited to HP 360. The torque of the diesel engine is transmitted to the traction valve inductor generator. The latter has a number of interesting features. In particular, it is equipped with a so-called. field winding, which allows to optimize the coordination of the diesel engine and generator. In addition, the generator can be used as an electric motor to start the diesel. Finally, the power plant includes a power storage unit, which incorporates electrochemical capacitors manufactured by Elton OJSC.

The electrotransmission of the experimental machine is made according to the motor-semi-axis scheme. It includes a distributed control system, made with extensive use of microprocessors, power converters of electric power, as well as eight traction electric motors. LLC NPF “Vector”, LLC NPP “Cycle +” and GOU VPO “MEI (TU)” participated in the development and production of electrical transmission units.

The microprocessor control system of the electric transmission carries out direct torque control and is therefore capable of implementing a number of active safety functions at the software level, such as ABS, ABS, cruise control, redistribution of the torque between the wheels depending on the road conditions, etc. On the chassis "Krymsk" used traction valve inductor motors with excitation winding. Planetary gears are built in engines. Allegedly, such electric motors, in combination with a control system, are capable of displaying characteristics at the level of serial excitation collector motors, considered the most convenient for use as traction motors.

(Illustration from http://btvt.narod.ru)

The power plant and propulsion pilot chassis are as follows. The diesel engine rotates the alternator rotor, which generates alternating current. Next, the alternating current is converted to direct current, after which it is sent to the drive and to the power converters. The latter, as appropriate, change the characteristics of the current and feed it to the traction motors. The drive is used to optimize the operation of electric transmission in transient conditions. So, during acceleration, it should “help” the main diesel generator system and supply additional power to the converters. When braking, in turn, braking energy is converted into electrical energy and accumulates in batteries. Drives, allegedly, can accumulate and instantly give large amounts of electricity. In the future, this will allow new sophisticated electronic systems to be installed on such chassis; weaponrequiring high energy costs.

The applied system “serial hybrid” with a propulsion of the “motor semi-axis” type allowed the experimental chassis to show fairly high performance. The general results of the running tests are described as follows: having about one and a half times less powerful engine in comparison with the BTR-90, the Krymsk chassis showed higher driving characteristics. So, during tests at the airfield in Kubinka, a car weighing about 22 tons accelerated to a speed of 97 kilometers per hour, and it took just 80 seconds to accelerate to 33 km / h. Also, the chassis with a hybrid power plant and electric transmission was able to overcome a two-meter-wide ditch, a half-meter wall and a rise in 30 °. In addition, during the tests, the experimental vehicle towed the BTR-80 armored personnel carrier at a speed of the order of 48 km / h, and also managed to drag such a load to the slope with a slope of 15 °. The Krymsk chassis fuel tanks are no different from the BTR-90 tanks, but at the same time it is able to travel up to 940 kilometers at one gas station, moving at the usual 40 km / h speed for the columns. Turning radius on dry concrete, thanks to the use of the electric transmission control system, was able to bring to the 3,8 meter.

At the moment, the Krymsk chassis is a purely experimental machine built to test a number of new technological solutions. For this reason, you should not hope that in the very near future such equipment will appear in service with our army. However, in the long term, armored vehicles with a hybrid power plant and electric transmission can still reach mass production and practical use. The existing high performance and characteristics achieved during the tests can interest a potential customer on behalf of the military department. However, full-scale development of all necessary technologies will require investing a lot of time and money. In this regard, it is likely that the Krymsk project or new research in this direction in the near future will have only an experimental character.


On the materials of the sites:
http://rosinform.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/

Comments

[Horde]

the machine is good, lithium batteries would have to be supplied at all, there would be no price. Although, of course, we can calculate the mass-overall dimensions of this power plant. Is there any real gain compared to a traditional diesel-mechanical one?

[Refund_SSSR]

Quote: Horde

. Is there a real gain compared to traditional diesel-mechanical?

At least almost complete acoustic masking

[Varnaga]

they are there just at the rate of silent movement at low speed over a short period of time.
The weight is approximately the same compared to the classic layout, due to the exclusion of gearbox, cardan, gearboxes, etc.

[Professor]

Quote: Horde

Is there a real gain over traditional diesel-mechanical?

Low fuel consumption, the ability to move on one or two "wheels", thermal and acoustic stealth, smooth running, accelerating h-ki, ecology ...
In short, now there is such a global trend. And low fuel consumption is also of great importance.

[Lopatov]

Impossibility of repair "in the fields", high cost, vulnerability of motor-wheels: one fragment is enough for guaranteed disabling.

But the columns must be guarded, for three cars one armor.

[mogus]

the article talks about the motor axis.
The motor is mounted on the body of the APC, and not in the wheel (motor-wheel). So the output is only covered for the shaft with hinges.
Repair - unscrew the motor shield, disconnect the cables, unscrew the motor, put another one.
In these motors there is only a stator winding, the anchor is just a magnet.

[Lopatov]

You forgot to "remove the wheel"

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

You forgot to "remove the wheel"

Why remove it if the motor is in the housing?

[Lopatov]

How do you get to him? Especially the rear ones - there you have to pull out the engine with the generator.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

How do you get to him? Especially the rear ones - there you have to pull out the engine with the generator.

It all depends on the design features of the armored personnel carrier itself. It is very possible that in the area of ​​the diesel generator (which, most likely, was made as a single unit), access to the engines will be outside. Or maybe next to the diesel generator, these engines from the axle shafts will stick up, and changing them will be just like changing the store at the machine.
In general, what to guess, we will wait for the implementation of this transmission in a specific military gland, and sooner or later, we will wait for comments from those who will operate it all.

[cdrt]

What a repair in the fields. This is R&D. Because of this, there will be no military field at this machine.
Well, since the problems are generally not so new, then when (or if) they do OCD, they’ll solve it somehow

[mogus]

no. I forgot to remove, first of all, the axle shaft ... The wheel is not needed.

[dustycat]

Quote: mogus

In these motors there is only a stator winding, the anchor is just a magnet.

Even easier.
An anchor is not a magnet at all, but a set of cunning plates made of electrical steel.

[dustycat]

Quote: mogus

the article talks about the motor axis.
The motor is mounted on the body of the APC, and not in the wheel (motor-wheel). Means

The picture is generally a classic motor wheel.
The BTR90 has no axles, it is all on the axles.
From this point of view, the motor wheel differs from the motor half-shaft in that it is bolted to the suspension - an anchor or a stator.
In this case, the stator.

[mogus]

according to the picture, yes, in the text the motor axis ... what to rely on? usually in the text, because Pictures are sometimes attached off-topic.

[True]

And in winter, how will the batteries behave? But what if a global conflict using nuclear weapons?

[mogus]

in winter, the main thing is to start the diesel. The "batteries" can be supplied with heat from the engine, they will warm up on the move with load. How will the development of such batteries go further? -Can be done for low temperatures ...
In a nuclear explosion - you need to hold the machine in outstretched arms so that molten metal does not drip onto the boots (which can cause an impulse to a system in which loads are measured in kilowatts ..?)

[afire]

There is a problem with such machines.
1) Due to the fact that a very large inductive component is generated, an electromagnetic background is formed, which can be detected, for example, from a satellite or UAV.
2) A lot of claims in the future can arise to the defeat of electrical parts using microwave, laser systems both in the working and non-working position of the machine. You can burn the coils by pointing at her large electromagnetic components.
I speak not as a critic, but how, well, in general it doesn’t matter, therefore it is necessary to immediately take into account the protection of energy-dependent parts of the car from any external factors when developing such a technique.

[mogus]

so that microwave penetrates through steel ..? All email initially mounted under armor. There will be radiation - everything will go into heating the body (but the radiation still needs to be organized).
Stealth - controversial thing, you still can’t hide.
We will solve future problems as they become available.

[afire]

You probably don’t take much into account in the propagation of waves, but since you are directly related to this unit, sooner or later you will come to this, not all possible effects have been experienced ...
Also - do not forget that the crew is in a permanent capsule, in which there is a reflection of everything. How long can they be in it? Will their heads crack in a couple of hours? All these are subjects of research, since otherwise having done everything super-duper, it will be impossible to use this person.

[mogus]

the "box" is closed. HZ wave to get there. how ... Weak points can be covered with a grid of "graph paper" - not quite help, but will weaken the impact.
The armored personnel carrier is constantly in motion in the theater of operations, if it is "clogged", then it is possible to slip through the place of impact, and it is not realistic to "cover" the entire area, it will not be uniform. In addition, what prevents to put a microwave indicator, etc., by connecting it to an external communication antenna ... in order to determine the impact, not by the sound of heads

[afire]

As the project comes down, but if you move further, you need to start from the last - from the person, and dance around and for his sake. Create a new and corps and protection and secrecy and and and and and and and and and and and and))

[postman]

Quote: mogus

Heat from the engine can be supplied to the "batteries"

it will not give anything
traction batteries, and so having limited durability, poorly tolerate low temperatures characteristic of Russia, temperature differences and often poor culture of operation and maintenance. And their cost is the lion's share of the total cost of the hybrid power plant.
And the weight is much greater than the weight of the fuel (hydrocarbon), necessary to obtain the same result.
AND MAIN:
when implementing the concept of a hybrid vehicle (or electric vehicle), MAXIMUM LIGHTEN THE WEIGHT of the vehicle, MAXIMUMLY EXCLUDE ENERGY CONSUMERS.

PRESENTING A CARTON BTR, without a control system, a military vehicle, a TOWER ELECTRIC DRIVE, a fan-and-ventilation unit, an air-charging unit, without an air conditioner and an electric (hydraulic booster) ... Brrr.
who needs it?

[mogus]

while they were writing and wondering about the power source, here, below, they already explained that electrochemical capacitors were installed. With a range of -50 / + 70. Capacitor - fast charge and discharge for overclocking.

[postman]

Quote: mogus

that electrochemical capacitors are installed. With a range of -50 / + 70.

1. less resistance of electrode materials to chemical and electrochemical degradation
2. Expensive materials: oxides and hydroxides of ruthenium, nanocrystalline oxides and hydroxides of nickel and manganese.
cost of 1KJ of stored energy and 1F capacity

3. a high probability of electric shock to the crew during accidents and database
4. Least charge persistence
5. a sharp increase in leakage current with increasing voltage
Faced with the fact of a small sales volume, in 1971 SOHIO transferred the license to NEC, which was able to successfully market the product under the name Supercapacitor. In 1978, Panasonic launched the Gold capacitor (Gold Cap), operating on the same principle. These capacitors had a relatively high internal resistance limiting the energy output, so these capacitors were used only as storage batteries for SRAM
No, of course there is: Maxwell Technology, Evans Capacitor for 3STHQ3 and 3PTHQ3 Powerful Military Systems и THQA2-HT and HC-HT but they are .... mom do not cry /
Well, the parameters
3,3-150 mF at a voltage of 125 to 10 V. The range of the operating temperature of the capacitors is -55 ... 125 ° C. WITH
68–580 μF, designed for operation at a temperature of 200 ° С (U = 30–75 V).

Quote: mogus

for overclocking.

the second turbine with an electric drive or a mechanical compressor a supercharger or a super flywheel solves cheaper and easier this

[mogus]

the cost of a hybrid is one third more expensive. In Novosibirsk, there are purely battery-powered buses - they don’t shock if you don’t get into it :). So far these are prototypes, but the future is theirs and it’s good that they are developing.

[dustycat]

Quote: Postman

2. Expensive materials: oxides and hydroxides of ruthenium, nanocrystalline oxides and hydroxides of nickel and manganese.

Well, besides these, there are all sorts of more environmentally friendly and less expensive materials. DNA for example.
Ours fiddled with them before the collapse of the USSR and managed quite well.
Now the subject of hydrocarbon and organosilicon ionistors is actively digging mattresses. However, all with Slavic names.

[postman]

Quote: dustycat

DNA for example.

and what is DNA? did not hear.
But the price is still ok.10 $ / kJ!
What about the low voltage problem?
And the problem of voltage drop from working to zero (linear)
And the fact that 1/10 energy can be stored in comparison with the NMG battery?

[max702]

If a global conflict with nuclear weapons then viruses and bacteria do not need batteries ....

[dustycat]

Quote: Spade

vulnerability of motor wheels: one fragment is enough for a guaranteed incapacitation.

Hmm .. Belazes drive motor wheels and do not break at every kilometer.
And stones from under the wheels fly out no worse than the same fragments or bullets.
The motor wheel is a completely enclosed structure made of sufficiently strong and massive material so that the bullets go into rebound.
And those that will not go away are better used to defeat the power plant and crew.

[Lopatov]

Quote: dustycat

Hmm .. Belazes drive motor wheels and do not break at every kilometer.
And stones from under the wheels fly out no worse than the same fragments or bullets.

Yah?

Quote: dustycat

And those that will not go away are better used to defeat the power plant and crew.

Have you heard about such a concept as "density of fire"?

[cdrt]

It does not write motor wheels, but a half-axis motor.

[postman]

Quote: professor

And low fuel consumption is also of great importance.

Toyota Prius, the most massive of the currently produced cars with a hybrid powerplant, provides a reduction in average fuel consumption by 43% (according to the manufacturer). A car of this class, which is in personal use and has traveled an average of 20 km per year for 000 years, will save 10 liters per 3,44 km or 100 liters over the entire life cycle. In prices at the beginning of 2010, this corresponds to a saving of 160 thousand rubles, which is significantly less than the real increase in the cost of manufacturing, operating and disposing of a hybrid power plant in relation to a traditional ICE with a mechanical transmission.


With increasing power, the losses in the electric links of the hybrid increase sharply. This leads to the fact that in the most popular modes of dynamic deceleration from high speeds, the efficiency of the hybrid becomes very low. The operating experience of the same Toyota Prius confirms the thesis - the greatest fuel economy is achieved with smooth accelerations and decelerations.
=====
Doesn't roll all this for warfare.
--------------------------------------
for image and glamor- PULLS

[Professor]

Quote: Postman

for image and glamor- PULLS

What is the image and glamor? In our building there is a high-tech company and, as is customary in Israel, engineers receive cars from the company (company car), and the employer also pays for gasoline. So they have percent 80% of cars because they are hybrids less clearly. This is especially noticeable in the urban cycle. The roads are full of private hybrids, despite the fact that their initial cost is more expensive.

[postman]

Quote: professor

What is the image and glamor?

1.We fight for ecology, protect mother Earth
ZEV-class and PZEV-class, you can go to California
ALWAYS WORK: environmental damage from hybrids (production of batteries, generators, wiring, infrastructure and other entrails) is much more than that of a standard ICE
/ the same with artificial fur coats. Rave. fox: cheaper, greener and less cruel
2. Any company glamor: our employees cherish the earth mother, ride hybrids
3. IT WOULD NOT BE BENEFIT FROM GOVERNMENT: I ​​would see how they drove
4. Israel and the EEC are not Russia (well, north of the latitude of Rostov, anyway)
5.No no less harvest train in St. Petersburg(let's say a roundabout or from Vaska to Pulkovo-WINTER), look, eat exactly the same amount, and in all respects it is WORSE.
And if you take into account the life cycle of the battery and the costs of its production, disposal, EAT MORE

Quote: professor

The roads are full of private hybrids, despite the fact that their initial cost is more expensive.

Remind about state subsidies?
I have a German in Germany with solar panels laid the roof: subsidy + for the supply of electricity to the network - they pay
The heat pump is the same as how much do people pay extra per square meter in Germany today?
============================
Euro6 entered into force (in the EEC), who does not fit into the whole spectrum of automatic telephone exchanges; gr kWh often pays.
Ferrari Land Rover will also release a hybrid, which would dilute the barrel with a spoon of tar (well, or vice versa)

[olegff68]

Quote: professor

Quote: Horde

Is there a real gain over traditional diesel-mechanical?

Low fuel consumption, the ability to move on one or two "wheels", thermal and acoustic stealth, smooth running, accelerating h-ki, ecology ...

The ability to use any such APC as a mobile power station (for the needs of communications, control, power radars, household ...), while remaining a full-fledged combat unit ...

[dustycat]

Do you know better lithium-ion elements?
There are still ionistors.
The lithiums cannot catch them.
Frost resistance, the ability to output peakless power without a hesitation, the ability to quickly take charge.

[cdrt]

Lithium batteries have a fairly limited number of recharge cycles when charging from an incompletely discharged state. Maybe supercapacitors will still be better. Work without an engine is a rather exotic thing, very few people need it and very rarely need it. But recuperation, a sharp increase in power to the wheels, the efficiency of the electric motor, the use of internal combustion engines in optimal mode - this is already a thing. But not the fact that you need a lithium battery. Dear it hurts.

[small]

E-mobile for the military. Good car.

[BARKAS]

The ё-mobile for the military was like that
The transmission is electromechanical!

[Kuzkin Batyan]

Is this a real technique or banter? How to manage at such a height? The cabin on the other hand is the same, that is, it can go in the ass as well as forward?

[BARKAS]

At the end of the 90s, the All-Union Scientific Research Diesel Locomotive Institute (VNITI, Kolomna, Moscow region) received an order from the Ministry of Defense to develop a hybrid tractor using an all-terrain chassis combined with the traction characteristics of diesel locomotives. So such a "special" was created with the MZKT chassis and the body and stuffing of the 2T62U mainline diesel locomotive The military is still hiding the exact purpose of this machine, but presumably it can serve, for example, as a powerful mobile power plant of several thousand kW.

http://shusharmor.livejournal.com/197992.html

[fedorovith]

Yes there is, I saw in Bronnitsy a couple of years ago.

[Starover_Z]

The ё-mobile for the military was like that

Where is the handle to spin the generator?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Starover_Z

The ё-mobile for the military was like that

Where is the handle to spin the generator?

By the way, in the post-war years, a German bus with electric transmission traveled to Sochi. They say that he didn’t have batteries, he started up with a pen. The flywheel was untwisted, then manually connected (with a lever) to the engine, the engine started. Simple was like a hammer. Those who exploited this bus have only positive memories.

[Lopatov]

The British had a better method. A diesel tractor that started from a blank cartridge. As a firing trigger, a smoldering wick.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

The British had a better method. A diesel tractor that started from a blank cartridge. As a firing trigger, a smoldering wick.

The Japanese worked some time ago on starting engines without a starter (specifically, I read about motonarts). When they pressed the "Start" button, the computer calculated in which of the cylinders the gasoline mixture should be and the position of the piston corresponded to the desired one and gave a spark there. True, (at the time I read about it), the system of such a launch was not very reliable. But they managed to implement the reverse speed by stopping and starting the engine with rotation in the opposite direction without any problems.

[postman]

Quote: BARKAS

The ё-mobile for the military was like that

you also need a pantograph on top, or a receiving pipe, for continuous refueling from the fuel line.
In short, it was created to protect oil and gas pipelines from unauthorized discharge of hydrocarbons ...

[tronin.maxim]

Almost 100 km per hour briskly runs! I would like this prototype for fishing and hunting to ride the very thing!

[PDM80]

Quote: tronin.maxim

Almost 100 km per hour briskly runs! I would like this prototype for fishing and hunting to ride the very thing!

So most likely the car, or something based on it, will find application in the civilian world.
And since the car is interesting, but what about repair in the field, here you need to be both a mechanic and an electrician at the same time

[mogus]

valve induction generator - a motor that is simpler asynchronous. (there is an induction motor in an electric grinder (emery), an electric razor).

[Professor]

Quote: PDM80

So most likely the car, or something based on it, will find application in the civilian world.

It has long been found and only now appear in the army.

[afire]

The neighbor drove this from France, well, she eats 2 liters less, while the maximum speed is lower, the capricious electronics, the more the weight is transported, the faster it dries))
In short, just to light up in the leaders, in fact the efficiency is small.
It’s easier to ride on an ordinary aspirated and not to steam.
And you will provide the minimum expense at! Riding 50-60 km, one person on board, without bags, like vegetables, will disturb everyone on the road, but in the general flow the savings are not big. No, I'm certainly glad that such a technique exists, but this is some kind of mockery)) With normal driving, the benefit is small, taking into account the price of a car.

[Professor]

Quote: afire

And you will provide the minimum expense at! Riding 50-60 km, one person on board, without bags, like vegetables, will disturb everyone on the road, but in the general flow the savings are not big. No, I'm certainly glad that such a technique exists, but this is some kind of mockery)) With normal driving, the benefit is small, taking into account the price of a car.

This is true for any car, but the hybrid eats almost 2 times less (there are such that 70%) less, so consider it profitable or not.

[postman]

Quote: professor

however, the hybrid eats almost 2 times less (there are such that 70%)

provide PBX with ICE energy recuperator (super-flywheel, or pressure accumulator) - the result will be BETTER
Well, the efficiency cannot be higher if you are in the link
ICE-wheel drive
vpenduret generator and ed and battery
ICE-generator-battery-drive-wheel-generator-battery
================
it doesn't happen

[dustycat]

Quote: professor

This is true for any car, but the hybrid eats almost 2 times less (there are such that 70%) less, so consider it profitable or not.

Especially when compared with the same diesel.
In reality - with real needs and manners of use - saving more than 10-20% does not come out.
You can’t fool physics.
The only indisputable plus of hybrids is more efficient use of fuel.

[postman]

Quote: afire

A neighbor drove this from France,

I sympathize with him ..... when will have to sell, or a complete replacement of acb .....

[cdrt]

The neighbor drove this from France, well, she eats 2 liters less, while the maximum speed is lower, the capricious electronics, the more the weight is transported, the faster it dries))

What to say - the same can be said about any truly French car

[postman]

Quote: professor

It has long been found and only now appear in the army.

Oh how long ....
the creator of the first passenger hybrid car is Ferdinand Porsche, which back in 1898 constructed a prototype of a hybrid car, and later built a model on the basis of it Lohner Electric Chaise (Lohner-Porsche Mixte Voiturette), Grand Prix of the 1900 Paris World's Fair

so who and Fedya understood a lot about cars and military equipment ...
And what? And nothing has changed.
PRIM PORSCHE AG will not independently develop a hybrid drive.
VERY EXPENSIVE and will not pay off.

[Lopatov]

There you do not have to be a particularly wise electrician: with the slightest damage, a complete replacement of the assembly or assembly will be necessary. the same motor with a damaged winding can only be rewound at the enterprise.

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

There you do not have to be a particularly wise electrician: with the slightest damage, a complete replacement of the assembly or assembly will be necessary. the same motor with a damaged winding can only be rewound at the enterprise.

I remember we had this debate already. Carry a spare tire or two. Diesel spare able to carry? But how long will a diesel engine pierced by a bullet or a fragment be and how to repair it in the field?

PS
I also recall that they could not believe that the hybrid has an average consumption of 3.9l per 100km ...

[Lopatov]

Or four. A standard case with a close artillery shell rupture. And you have to carry inside the car. And changing under fire, crawling into some kind of hollow on the swap will not work.

In terms of consumption, I proved that it is larger, you could not give convincing arguments to prove the opposite, preferring the confidence that the energy in the running batteries in the field comes from the fact that Allah gives it. I don’t know. "(from)

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

In terms of consumption, I proved that it is larger, you could not give convincing arguments to prove the opposite, preferring the confidence that the energy in the running batteries in the field comes from the fact that Allah gives it. I don’t know. "(from)

No, not proven. You still seem to have little idea of ​​the principle of action of hybrids. Here is the materiel for you. I can also throw 1000 links.
Prius
3.9 l / 100km !!!

Or four. A standard case with a close artillery shell rupture. And you have to carry inside the car. And changing under fire, crawling into some kind of hollow on the swap will not work.

Will leave for 4's remaining.

[Lopatov]

The Prius has 4,9 In addition, its weight is 1.5 tons, while the BTR-90 has 22

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

The Prius has 4,9 In addition, its weight is 1.5 tons, while the BTR-90 has 22

And although 55 tons, the consumption is half that of cars of the same mass, and this is proven by millions of cars produced.

[Lopatov]

All one and a half-ton cars guzzle from 10 l / km? Hard to believe.

Ford Focus 2,0 TDCi Weight 1532 kg, flow rate 5.9 l / km

[Refund_SSSR]

maybe it's better to try Yandex with google about hybrid cars and electric cars ??
Why argue? they tell you correctly.
By the way, the Prius consumption is 3,9 and with the same power density with the Ford Focus 2,0 TDCi (10.5 hp)
But the difference of 2 liters is a lot (33%)
So your example proves the opponent’s words to you

[Lopatov]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

maybe it's better to try Yandex with google about hybrid cars and electric cars ??

Or maybe it’s better not to get into an argument without knowing the essence?
We are talking about a hybrid Shadow RST-V with a powerful running battery, which allows you to drive 32 km along the intersection without turning on the generator.

And after that, conversations begin about its special efficiency according to the test results, "forgetting" that the car was carrying, in addition to fuel, a battery weighing several centners, while fully charged before the tests.
And therefore, when evaluating the flow rate, it should be considered not only that it consumes 2.5 liters of turbodiesel, but also the fuel consumption of the diesel generator, which charged the battery before the test.

Better yet, recalculate everything through specific energy intensity. For the coolest lithium-polymer, it is about 800 kJ / kg, and for diesel fuel it is 44.8 MJ / kg, so DT is clearly tactically more advantageous.

[Refund_SSSR]

Hard case...
There was an argument that a car of the same mass and with the same relative power is able to have significantly lower fuel consumption.
Always before you start your journey, are you going to discharge the ABK to zero, and then charge it for a few kilometers? Or maybe it is worth moving in a "mixed cycle"?
Decide, huh? What are you arguing about and what kind of off-road are you talking about if the conversation was about Ford and Prius ...
Do you understand yourself?

[Lopatov]

No, there was a conversation about a specific Shadow RST-V, to which the Professor is trying to fasten Prius in some way

[Refund_SSSR]

Why then give an example of Ford? or when by the ears to ... pulled up then I cut the back? It’s not good to do that, not manly.
Let's talk consistently, and not jump from word to word.

[Lopatov]

Cut the back you. We got into a dispute about which you have no idea and therefore try to dig into the little things that have nothing to do with the dispute itself. With the same success could discuss my nickname.

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

No, there was a conversation about a specific Shadow RST-V, to which the Professor is trying to fasten Prius in some way

There was talk about hybrids in general, where you argued that the indicated average consumption is false since they start to go on a charged battery. To which I pointed out to you that the flow rate is average and it is not 100 of the first km that is calculated, but in many hundreds or thousands.
Simplify the task. Is the average fuel consumption of a hybrid about half the fuel consumption of a conventional car of the same class?

[Lopatov]

There was talk about a specific model of weapons, rather than spherokonin. And you are trying to shove the Prius into the same pile as part of this sphere-of-concept concept.

Simplify the task even more. 4.9 x 2 ≤ 5.9?

I take the average consumption in the mixed mode for both cars, and not in the "return_sssr" style, which tries to compare the average for a diesel engine and the optimal city for a "Prius"

[Professor]

I asked a simple question, why are you starting to evade?

Quote: professor

Is the average fuel consumption of a hybrid about half the fuel consumption of a conventional car of the same class?

[postman]

Quote: Spade

but also the fuel consumption of the diesel generator, which charged the battery before the test.

V.vot about this hybridophiles SILENCE ALL TIME.
+
still need to consider costs(let the energy that there is money) for the production, maintenance and disposal of batteries and chargers, be sure to compare with the internal combustion engine (TDU, tank, hydrocarbons) and everything will immediately fall into place
a hybrid car will be compared with an internal combustion engine (or win a little) only in the mode of frequent or long-term recovery (braking), it’s so simple, provide a vehicle with an internal combustion engine with a flywheel energy storage with mechanical power take-off and a mechanical multi-band continuously variable transmission with double power flow separation (supervariator). A new type of power plant will provide a reduction in fuel consumption in the urban cycle by 59 ... 75%.
In the city .......

[Lopatov]

And here you can simply compare: Here are two cars, one with a normal diesel engine, the other a hybrid. Here is the weight of what she is forced to carry with her in order to ensure her movement: the first has fuel, the second has fuel, plus a heavy running battery. What is more effective in combat conditions?
It is impossible to approach military equipment from the position of a civil urban avtomobilchik. And that would have long been small tanks appeared.

[Refund_SSSR]

It is impossible to approach military equipment from the position of a civil urban avtomobilchik. And that would have long been small tanks appeared.

Come on! those. trucks and buses hybrids or electric cars - is it fantastic ?!
Quote from Wikipedia:

Buses with hybrid (diesel / electricity) power plants are designed and manufactured:
New Flyer Industries - Canada. It has been producing hybrid buses since 1997.
DaimlerChrysler - Orion VII Bus. The hybrid circuit was developed in conjunction with BAE Systems;
General Motors - The GM / Allison hybrid scheme was developed in conjunction with DaimlerChrysler and BMW;
Optima Bus Corporation (USA) - A hybrid circuit developed jointly by ISE-Siemens;
Enova (USA);
First Automotive Works (FAW) (China) - Enova Hybrid Circuit;
Solaris Bus & Coach (Poland) - Hybrid scheme GM / Allison;
APTS (Netherlands) - Hybrid scheme GM / Allison (Phileas);
Optare Group (Great Britain) - Hybrid scheme GM / Allison;
Nova Bus (Canada) - Hybrid scheme GM / Allison;
DesignLine International Holdings (New Zealand). Buses are equipped with Capstone MicroTurbine microturbines and batteries;
Beiqi Foton Bus (China) - Hybrid circuit Eaton Corporation.
LIAZ (Russia) - LiAZ-5292 bus [8].
Trolza (Russia) - TrolZa-5250 ecobus with a microturbine (fuel - natural gas, propane, butane) based on the Trolza-5265 trolleybus [9]
Dongfeng Motor Company (China) - Dongfeng EQ6110 bus [10].
Volvo - Volvo 7700 Hybrid [11]. By the beginning of 2013, the company had produced about 1600 hybrid buses [12].
Hyundai Motor Company - Blue City Bus. [13] [14]
The most common hybrid buses received in North America. From 2004 to June 2008, General Motors delivered 30 hybrid buses to more than 1000 cities in the United States and Canada. By September 2009, Orion Bus Industries had produced 2200 hybrid buses [15]. The first six hybrid buses in London began operating in early 2006. First Automotive Works began production of hybrid buses in the fall of 2005.
A hybrid scheme for buses is being developed, consisting of hydrogen fuel cells and batteries:
Japanese companies Toyota and Hino;
Belgian company Van Hool together with ISE Corp (USA) and UTC Power (USA)

Think it all? Fuck there!

Hybrid circuits are often used in mining trucks, and for trucks, companies design and manufacture:
Belarusian Automobile Plant
Azure Dynamics (USA)
Nissan together with ZF Friedrichshafen AG (Germany)
Alcoa together with Altair Nanotechnologies (USA) develop batteries for hybrid trucks
Odyne Corporation (USA)
Peterbilt 386 hybrid (USA) together with Eaton
Oshkosh Truck Corp.
Volvo Cars and MAC
Hino Motors (Japan)
Caterpillar Inc. (USA)

Well, what small car?
I say, by running to Yandex and eliminating illiteracy, while pulling up the hardware

[Lopatov]

And now, please tell us what relation do the samples listed by you have to military equipment?

You generally read other people's posts, or do not bother with such stupidity?

[postman]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

Well, what small car?

1.in the USA, the share of hybrid automatic telephone exchanges in the fleet is decreasing from 2,9% to 2,4% (2011) of the country, no one is taking a new prius (Consumer willingness to re-purchase hybrid cars in 2008 was 35,2%, in 2009 year - 39,6%, in 2010 - 38,9%, in 2011 - only 35%.)
less than 2% of the market.
2. In Europe (less than 1%) even worse, despite the “Green Tax Reform”
UK exempted from paying an annual fee of £ 2 thousand
The IRL for passenger hybrids has halved the annual registration fee, about € 2,5 thousand.
NOR owners use a one-time preferential rate of transport tax for their purchase - about € 2 thousand.
SP capital, Madrid, benefits are also one-time - a total of about € 2,5 thousand.
CH (some cantons) car owners of hybrids do not pay annual transport tax (about € 340)

In a number of USA states, the size of such a benefit reaches $ 4,7 thousand.
JP - saving there in the end is about € 1,2 thousand.
3. Who was the thread when the thread rode the New Flyer Industries bus?

From 2004 to June 2008, General Motors delivered 30 hybrid buses to more than 1000 cities in the United States and Canada. Orion Bus Industries produced 2009 hybrid buses by September 2200. The first six hybrid buses in London began operating in early 2006. First Automotive Works began production of hybrid buses in the fall of 2005.

Quote: We refund_SSSR

Hybrid circuits often use

there is a transmission, not a Full Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid or Mild Hybrid !!
What (um transmission) is relevant for heavy quarries.
BUT I assure you: 2 x Bell 40D with a MERCEDES diesel, put ANY CAREER on the shoulder blades (Caterpillar, not to mention Belaz), for a year, taking into account salary and purchase costs. UNDER CONDITIONS IF THEY DO NOT CREATE A HIGHWAY AT THE CAREER.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Postman

BUT I SURE: 2 x Bell 40D with a MERCEDES diesel, put on the shoulder of ANY QUARRY (Caterpillar, .........

If my memory serves me, Caterpillar is purely mechanic. And why is it so much worse than "2 x Bell 40D with MERCEDES diesel" that it should lie on the blades?

[postman]

Quote: Bad_gr

And why is it so much worse than "2 x Bell 40D with MERCEDES diesel" that it should lie on the blades?

1.If it is interesting I can send data from Kuzbass! Year of operation
2.Caterpillar 795f ac electromechanical transmission.
Traction electric motors of the wheels are installed directly in the axles, which ensures their quick dismantling and separation from final drives during maintenance.
Caterpillar 797B (at equal gp) HAS A CAT WEIGHT 6000KG (almost)
The same as: LIEBHERR T282B (diesel electric TR (Siemens / Liebherr AC Drive)), TEREX Titan,
Terex Unit Rig MT 6300AC (25 lighter than CAT 000!)
3.

Quote: Bad_gr

What should lie on the shoulder blades?

So that Belaz, KAT, etc. could "ride" IT IS NECESSARY TO BUILD A ROAD AND PROVIDE INCLINES of proper quality.
Bell40D (articulated 6x6) is NOT NEEDED
3.1. infrastructure savings
3.2. They travel almost 2 times faster (in the spring they held drivers, loaded, Result: 1n in a cuvette (Volvo), 1 engine shuttle (Bell): the mountain shutter did not open after the descent, and it fooled)
3.3 fuel consumption per 1 ton km, Belaz and others like a rest

A Merc diesel, which is put on the Bell, is one of the best, not a killer car.
I drove myself to a factory training ground, I didn’t want to get down, and most importantly, it was done so that even blacks can work without fatalities (after the last one, now there’s a button gear selector and an auto brake)

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Postman

1 ....

Clear.

Thanks for the information.

[dustycat]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

Come on! those. trucks and buses hybrids or electric cars - is it fantastic ?!

And now find in the same wikipedia how many citizens of these countries who never traveled on these hybrid buses and did not use the services of hybrids pay extra for each of them from their taxes.
Fiction is their equal value.

Hybrids, first of all, is the most successful civilian project of pumping out budget funds.
All of them are subsidized and subsidies are protected by the laws of advanced promloby.

All of their production is not self-supporting.

About their environmental friendliness even funnier.
Find on Wikipedia how much CO2 is emitted during the production of one lithium battery for the Prius and how much CO2 will produce a car of equal specific power with conventional SU.

[Bad_gr]

"........ The new car will use lithium batteries and supercapacitors, an intelligent microprocessor control system, .....

..... The locomotive hybrid can save up to 30-40% of fuel, in addition, it emits 50-55% less harmful substances into the atmosphere. According to Anton Zubikhin, General Director of the STM Center for Innovative Development, the need for hybrid diesel locomotives by 2015 is 120 units.

The very idea of ​​hybrid traction on a railroad is not new. For example, in the United States, such devices appeared on the rails back in 2005 .... "
http://www.membrana.ru/particle/16348

[postman]

Quote: Bad_gr

The locomotive hybrid can save up to 30-40% of fuel,

hybrid for railway
2400 tons (or more) on a flat road in the mode: acceleration, uniform movement - braking
the stump is clear that having spent energy to accelerate this weight, it asks to recuperate it back when braking, moreover traction has no (practically) restriction on weight and axle load

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

What is more effective in combat conditions?

More efficient than systems consuming half as much fuel (twice as large a power reserve), and also capable of dumping on only one working wheel. Plus quietly, without smoking and not shining.

[Lopatov]

A more efficient system with greater autonomy, capable of providing more time before refueling.

Your hybrids do not provide this because of the energy consumption of batteries less than firewood.

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

A more efficient system with greater autonomy, capable of providing more time before refueling.

Your hybrids do not provide this because of the energy consumption of batteries less than firewood.

Provide a greater range in spite of firewood and batteries.
Bravo concept car was introduced in Detroit

CERV hybrid car

Shadow - car intelligence, surveillance, target designation (RST-V), United States
On 95 liters of fuel, Shadow can refuel 758 km at a speed of 50 km per hour without refueling. Using only the power of the batteries, the car is able to overcome 32 km.

[Lopatov]

Dear, well, I do not need this fiction from advertising booklets.
Let’s do it on fingers: for example, you need to drive N meters, and for this you should spend 100 MJ. What do you need? Correctly, either 2.2 kg of diesel fuel, or a lithium-polymer battery weighing 12.5 kg.

Now can you tell how less of the stored energy can provide a greater range of power for the same vehicle?

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

Dear, well, I do not need this fiction from advertising booklets.
Let’s do it on fingers: for example, you need to drive N meters, and for this you should spend 100 MJ. What do you need? Correctly, either 2.2 kg of diesel fuel, or a lithium-polymer battery weighing 12.5 kg.

Now can you tell how less of the stored energy can provide a greater range of power for the same vehicle?

I asked you repeatedly, sort out the principle of the hybrid, and here you are comparing me a car with an internal combustion engine and an electric car.

Dear, To conduct an educational program for you due to which energy is saved in the hybrid or will you figure it out yourself?

[Lopatov]

Quote: professor

I asked you repeatedly, sort out the principle of the hybrid, and you compare me here with a car with an internal combustion engine and an electric car

I just don’t understand one thing: where in your calculations is a multi-center running battery? Where do you shove it? The part of the propulsion system? Okay. Compare the weight of diesel and hybrid power. The difference will be the extra fuel that will allow you to drive more.

Quote: professor

Dear, To conduct an educational program for you due to which energy is saved in the hybrid or will you figure it out yourself?

And what does profitability have to do with this issue? She really can level the difference in the amount of fuel that can take a hybrid and conventional diesel. Yes, the latter will gobble up a little more in l / km, but having much more fuel, it will go further.

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

I just don’t understand one thing: where in your calculations is a multi-center running battery? Where do you shove it? The part of the propulsion system? Okay. Compare the weight of diesel and hybrid power. The difference will be the extra fuel that will allow you to drive more.

You do not understand the main thing, the principle of the hybrid car.

Quote: Spade

And what does profitability have to do with this issue?

Efficiency means a greater range on the same amount of fuel. How about a Hamer jeep that has traveled 95 kilometers at 758 liters? How many Hamer and the like will go on 95 liters. I understand your theory: instead of the battery, we take extra fuel and drive on. However, this fuel still needs to be found and most importantly, after you have used it, it will not appear again and will not give energy a second time. Batteries are reusable (by the way, unlike firewood).

Quote: Spade

Yes, the latter will gobble up a little more in l / km, but having much more fuel, it will go further.

Let's sum up.
pros:
With an equal amount of fuel, the hybrid will travel much further, acceleration characteristics are generally not comparable, as are acoustic and thermal sensations. Ride. Reliability in a hybrid is better since withdrawal from the action of the engine, one or even several propulsors and batteries will not lead to loss of mobility. Able to share energy. Almost everything that he is capable of has already been squeezed out of the internal combustion engine - electric energy storage devices are only developing and the battery capacity per unit of weight is growing not by the day, but by the hour.
Cons:
The hybrid is more complex, initially more expensive and there is a problem with the disposal of used batteries.
Hack and predictor Aviator:
In the near future we will see more and more hybrids in the army and on the battlefield.

[Lopatov]

Quote: professor

You do not understand the main thing, the principle of the hybrid car.

I understand that very well. But you absolutely do not want to understand that running batteries have a weight (rather big) and dimensions (also rather big).

Quote: professor

Efficiency means a greater range on the same amount of fuel.

But we figured out that the fuel supply is by no means the same. Because there are running batteries that have weight and size.

Quote: professor

In the near future we will see more and more hybrids in the army and on the battlefield.

Not at all a fact. Here, measures of state support for hybridization will not work.

[postman]

Quote: Spade

It is impossible to approach military equipment from the position of a civil urban avtomobilchik. And that would have long been small tanks appeared.

Absolutely.
Well, if you make an armored personnel carrier from pressed cardboard and remove all the electrical equipment .... it will probably go (or rather go), but it is NECESSARY.
IT IS SIMPLY SUFFICIENT TO SEE THE STOCK OF THE STROKE OF THE BATTLE MACHINES (compare with the same truck, equal to the full tonnage), and then try the same on the Hybrid

[Refund_SSSR]

Let's start with the fact that the actual consumption figures for internal combustion engines are much higher than those shown by manufacturers in their prospectuses, and when you talk about a real increase in consumption for hybrids in real operation, for some reason, for convenience, compare with the catalog data of internal combustion engines ...
Well, as usual, compare warm to soft.

[Lopatov]

Let's start by stopping cheating. We will not compare the minimum urban consumption in the Prius and the average diesel consumption.
We will not declare the "real figures of consumption for internal combustion engines" from the manufacturer a priori incorrect, but the same data from the manufacturers of hybrids are reinforced concrete.

Enough cheating.

[dustycat]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

By the way, the Prius consumption is 3,9 and with the same power density with the Ford Focus 2,0 TDCi (10.5 hp)

Haroooshy publicity stunt and no more.
And you, like most, have come across him.

Compare the consumption of ICE with DIFFERENT power on the shaft.
But with a very different cost L.S.
Try to conduct an experiment at startup with a discharged battery or simply driving 200-300 km along the highway without stops and parking.
Consumption will be exactly the same as a Ford with the same power on the shaft.
By the way, the Prius field of this stalls only after the battery is half charged. How much fuel will he burn?

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

All one and a half-ton cars guzzle from 10 l / km? Hard to believe.

Ford Focus 2,0 TDCi Weight 1532 kg, flow rate 5.9 l / km

Whatever one may say, the hybrid eats almost 2 times less (there are such that 70%) less and not only according to the passport. There are already more than a million hybrids on the roads and they continue to be made.

[Lopatov]

Strange, until now I have not noticed that you have problems with arithmetic.

[Professor]

Quote: Spade

Strange, until now I have not noticed that you have problems with arithmetic.

Huge problems with arithmetic. Toyota Prius - average consumption 3.9 l / 100km, Toyota Prius Plag In- average consumption 2.1 l / 100km, Toyota COROLLA - average consumption 7.1 l / 100km. http://www.toyota.com.au/corolla/features/hatch/performance/fuel-efficiency Almost 2 times. Simplify the task even more. 3.9 x 2 ≤ 7.1?
Let's continue.
Ricardo's company showed off an economical car
The analysis showed that, compared to the American HMMWV M1151 military vehicles as standard, FED provided 72's Fuel Economy Improvement Percentage. FEDs were evaluated using a number of realistic work cycles, including highways, off-road driving, and idling.

In addition to improved fuel economy, field tests demonstrated significantly improved acceleration rates compared to current cars, even with loads of up to almost seven tons.

[Lopatov]

http://fuelcontrol.info/services/brand/Toyota

And by the way, why is the hybrid-city cycle again, the most optimal, and not the most economical Corolla-average consumption? And why Corolla, and not a more economical Ford diesel with 5.9 for a mixed cycle. It is not suitable for your arithmetic?
A diesel Volvo S60, which eats 4.3 liters. in a mixed cycle? Also does not fit, arithmetic does not converge?

And by the way, the Volkswagen Passat has a world record for efficiency among production cars - 3l / 100km. Not at the Prius for some reason.
http://www.dni.ru/auto/2013/6/25/254966.html

[dustycat]

Quote: professor

And although 55 tons, the consumption is half that of cars of the same mass, and this is proven by millions of cars produced.

Under the condition of half the power of the thermal motor if the battery is charged.
Real operational gain 10-20%.

If the battery is frozen ... then the hybrid goes without it.

And its flow rate is consistent with the flow rate with a thermal motor of similar power and with all the delights of insufficient power.

So in Russia we are waiting for ionistors.
Maybe we will like hybrids with them in Russia.

Although the trolleybus throttle response (the trolleybus is also almost a hybrid, only wired) is impressive ...

[Professor]

Quote: dustycat

Real operational gain 10-20%.

Don't say nonsense out loud and at least read about how a hybrid works and how you save money. I was especially amused "if the battery is charged".

[Dart weyder]

Yes - the unit is good !!!!!!!!!!!! Taking into account the news about the "battery" riveted on a 3D printer, there will soon be no problems with batteries, and in size they will decrease a hundredfold.

[ramsi]

higher driving characteristics ...- and did they even try to knead the mud? And with overcoming fords, what? Judging by the increased height of the tailgate, this whole place is installation and takes

[mogus]

on the first video - it rotates in place.
- four pairs of eight wheels (second and third pairs) participate in rotation. This half is enough power for a turn. In the mud all the more it will go where necessary and in tightness at low speed.

[ramsi]

my skepticism is more caused by the electrical insulation of the motor wheels. But in general, if there will be no advantages in terms of placement dimensions, then the whole idea is not to eat an egg

[mogus]

more attentively.
The article talks about the motor axis. The motor is mounted on the body of the APC and transmits torque to the wheel through the shaft.

[dustycat]

What they say read.
And here is a motor wheel drawn.
With remote gear. Oil-filled.
In addition, the usual BTR90 suspension is clearly visible in the video.
So still a motor wheel.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: dustycat

What they say read.
And here is a motor wheel drawn.
With remote gear. Oil-filled.
In addition, the usual BTR90 suspension is clearly visible in the video.
So still a motor wheel.

Strange conclusions. Our armored personnel carriers have reducers in their hubs. An electric motor in the housing transfers the force to the regular wheel with a gearbox through the standard half shaft. What's wrong ?

[mogus]

Now I don’t know what to believe. Text or picture ... It happens that the picture with the text are not connected.
Well, if the motor-wheel is in fact, and the topic has already been taken to another hypostasis ...

[Bad_gr]

Quote: mogus

on the first video - it rotates in place.
- four pairs of eight wheels (second and third pairs) participate in rotation.

On the BTR-90 on opposite sides the wheels had opposite rotation and it practically turned in place (the turning diameter was equal to the distance between the first and fourth wheels). An armored personnel carrier with electric transmission is trying to do the same thing, only electric engines do not allow this to be done as clear as a mechanic. But for cross-country ability, this characteristic of electric motors is a very big plus (like multi-liter engines, with a small degree of compression).

[mogus]

in the second video, at the end, the "nickel" is measured. I screwed it up normally ... Only with an electric drive you cannot tear the transmission (there is simply nothing to tear :))
The electric motor for "tightness" is very good.

[mogus]

ford - an epiploon in an electric motor ...

[ramsi]

okay, I missed that the semi-axle motor, then further down the list: since the electric motors are in the case, the space saving decreases, the generator is quite comparable in size to the box, the winnings are only on cardan shafts. Operation - all these gadgets in the form of electronic traction control are good only at speed and parquet, in difficult road conditions, nothing is better than a "stupidly" locked all-wheel drive

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

Operation - all these gadgets in the form of electronic traction control are good only at speed and parquet, in difficult road conditions, nothing is better than a "stupidly" locked all-wheel drive

Electric transmissions are often used on mining trucks, where operating conditions are not sugar.

[ramsi]

there, for sure, motor wheels. So still sugar

[mogus]

electric motors instead of the gearbox in place.
BTR 90 as is: 510 hp, max.sk 100km / h, 800 km along the highway.
Hybrid - the same characteristics, but at 360 hp
Conclusion: the hybrid installation has more efficiency, and much more ...
In terms of survivability, if an electric motor breaks through, it can simply burn out (one wheel), while with an ordinary gearbox it will stick out oil and jam the entire bridge (two wheels). On the electric motor, in case of a short circuit, you can put a fuse and do not stop repairing - a regular gearbox?
Traction control - this is not a Land Cruiser, so that extra lotions. Just gas to the floor ...

[ramsi]

here you are linearly counting: the hybrid "rakes out" only with an interrupted rhythm of movement, or with a lower load. The efficiency of a hybrid installation is no more and cannot be equal. There is simply a more rational use of medium operating modes (like additional gears in a box).
The outboard motor has a very complicated control, and it would be okay if it were one - otherwise, five.
You did not understand about traction control: the principle of transferring torque from side to side will always lose to a blocked drive in difficult road conditions. However, on average it allows you to move faster

[mogus]

of the advantages - virtual hybrid transmissions (rational use of engine power and revolutions, without friction losses in the transmission).
And what prevents you from locking the axle shafts with an electric drive (just a clutch)?

[ramsi]

transmission losses - losses during energy conversion ... Locking in an electric drive, of course, can be done (there is even some flexibility). But the additional conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa should, by and large, turn into a minus.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

But the additional conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa should, by and large, turn into a minus.

And if we take into account that the diesel engine can run at that load and at those speeds when it has the highest efficiency, and the BTR speed is regulated purely by electric motors, then the loss in efficiency will not be significant (and indeed, will there be a loss in this case in efficiency?).

[ramsi]

the loss will be stopudovo, the greatest efficiency - at idle, but this is uninteresting, and then it should get worse. Yes, with the help of a competently calculated transmission, in limited modes, you can get closer to one, but no more. And on the circle, all the same, a minus looms. The only difference is whether it is worth it or not (improved average modes, against worse maximum)

[mogus]

the maximum speed of the BTR 90 is 100 km / h, the hybrid is 97 km / h, at 510 hp and 360 hp Where is the efficiency higher?

[ramsi]

I look, yesterday we forgot to mention one more thing: the use of an electric motor without a gearbox (as in our miracle) involves only one method of adjusting the shaft power - by changing the speed; the greater the input power, the greater the number of revolutions and vice versa. But to do so in order to get maximum power from such an engine at the minimum speed, or the speed is higher than the maximum, will not work. Personally, I would not sacrifice this for the sake of dubious savings.
As for your example, the BTR 90 may move the tank, but the hybrid is unlikely. The BTR 90 has a good power margin, and the hybrid has a miserable one. In short, our hybrid is not a fighting vehicle, but a laboratory toy

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

the greater the input power, the greater the number of revolutions and vice versa.

Now regulate the speed by changing the frequency of the input current.

[ramsi]

firstly, they give us something about the constant;
secondly, if we talk about the variable, then by changing the frequency, the average value of the acting current is changed - i.e. the same connection of input power with revolutions. The gearbox doesn’t replace all this.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

firstly, they give us something about the constant;

Yes, indeed, a constant approach to the engine. That's just with the engine device is not so simple:
".... A valve electric motor (VD) is a closed electromechanical system, consisting of a synchronous machine with a sinusoidal magnetic field distribution in the gap, a rotor position sensor, a coordinate converter and a power amplifier [1].

The mechanical and control characteristics of a brushless motor are linear and identical to the mechanical and control characteristics of a DC motor. Like DC motors, brushless motors operate on DC mains. VD can be considered as a DC motor, in which the brush-collector unit is replaced by electronics, which is emphasized by the word "valve", i.e. "controlled by power switches" (valves). The phase currents of the brushless motor are sinusoidal. As a rule, an autonomous voltage inverter with pulse width modulation is used as a power amplifier ...
.... Generally speaking, a valve motor is not an electric machine in the traditional sense, since its problems affect a number of issues related to the theory of electric drives and automatic control systems: structural organization, the use of sensors and electronic components, as well as software.

Valve motors, combining the reliability of AC machines with the good controllability of DC machines, are an alternative to DC motors, ...

Advantages:

Wide speed range
Contactless and lack of nodes requiring frequent maintenance (collector)
Possibility of use in explosive and aggressive environments
High torque overload capacity
High energy performance (efficiency above 90%)
Long service life and high reliability due to the absence of sliding electrical contacts ...... "

[ramsi]

yes, I also looked at this circuit and did not understand a thing, except that the "frequency" of constant pulses is set by the processor and powerful gates according to a complex algorithm.
Personally, I would take a classic three-phase motor (for ease of understanding), also reliable, non-sparking, without a collector, with a good starting torque - and would regulate the power input by frequency, since we already have an internal combustion engine that operates with variable frequency at generator. Since three phases of a variable, of course, cannot be compared with "three phases of a constant" (I continue to misunderstand), you can increase the number of phases to 6. In my opinion, it would be easier

[mogus]

more power at lower rpm - set the gearbox in two gears (direct and overdrive) in the interval between the internal combustion engine and the generator. It won't take up much space. Straight, heavy duty / load. Increasing on the track / speed. The tank should be pulled by a "classmate", and his brother should be pulled.
If according to the specifications with 360 hp does not lag behind 510 hp, what can it (hybrid) with 510 hp
In the near future, it’s unlikely to be seen in large numbers, but then, apparently, only this way ...

[ramsi]

this is how I understand the situation as a whole: first created a good, all-terrain chassis (I don’t know if it’s enough all-terrain or not, I didn’t drive);
then faced with limited mobility (gears must be turned); further increased engine power - increased fuel consumption - attended to economy. There is, of course, logic. But it should only be understood that in this particular case, a SUV was made from the "jeep". I don’t know, it is possible that the capabilities of an eight-wheeled chassis will be enough for the existing needs, but the cruising speed of 100 km / h with acceptable fuel consumption is not enough. Electric transmission does not provide any other savings, except for the absence of gearboxes. The engine does not turn off, as in a conventional hybrid (after all, it's not a sewing machine, like a Prius). Capacitors, apparently, only help with a sharp increase in load. Oh, yes - they also reduced the engine power. Consumption has decreased. Passage has worsened

[dustycat]

Electric pumps with a wet rotor successfully operate under very harsh conditions, in comparison with which a swamp is a cold sterile reservoir.

[ramsi]

and again, physics is stupid: the conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa ... I vaguely imagine electric motors with a wet rotor, but in my opinion with efficiency it is not very? ..

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

and again, stupid physics: the conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa ...

So after all, a diesel engine has a high efficiency absolutely not always. Ideally, the load should not be higher. not lower, namely, optimal at optimal speeds, which electric transmission allows to do.

[ramsi]

Yes Yes Yes!!! But there is a well-designed mechanical transmission versus a well-calculated electromechanical. Well, guess from three times what is more effective in THEORY?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

Yes Yes Yes!!! But there is a well-designed mechanical transmission versus a well-calculated electromechanical. Well, guess three times, what is more effective in theory?

The efficiency is higher than the mechanics. But on multi-wheeled vehicles with a bunch of gearboxes, it’s not so simple. Especially if you take the old APCs, with their two engines and a double set of all this economy ... This is something.
One diesel generator + engines per wheel is much simpler.

[ramsi]

Well, FIG knows, there I wrote about 5 valve motors - I went wrong, it seems like all 9 (although I still don’t understand: convert the variable to constant, so that it has a three-phase output - but I’m stupid, or rather I don’t understand)

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

convert the variable to constant so that it has a three-phase output

No problem.
For example, a converter from constant to variable. Pay attention to efficiency.
http://www.merlion.ru/press-center/reviews/2684/
Why am I doing this? The efficiency of modern electronics for all sorts of conversions, the further the higher.

[ramsi]

Yes, I mean that the three-phase variable is no longer different from the three-phase constant, it would be easier to make 6 phases of the variable and not steam with the transformation. No, not that, I don't catch up with how rectangular "impulses" of a constant can add up to zero on three phases (phase overlap zone ... there should be surges)

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

Yes, I mean that the three-phase variable is no longer different from the three-phase constant, it would be easier to make 6 phases of the variable and not steam with the transformation. No, not that, I don't catch up with how rectangular "impulses" of a constant can add up to zero on three phases (phase overlap zone ... there should be surges)

?????? In truth, I did not understand what was said.

[ramsi]

well, do not pay attention, probably drunk. I can imagine 2 phases of constant to zero, I can 4, 6, 8 ... but 3 is above my understanding ...

[Skiff]

I have no words, I am delighted that not a day is the news, and even what !!!
All the developer Glory and Honor !!!

[King]

Recently, more and more new products have been pleasing domestic costructars. an injection of money is not in vain.

[siberko]

Yes, the photos in Kubinka-1 were taken, they are being tested on the "Tank Hill", they have lived in this town for 20 years ... they have been experiencing this Rostock for 10 years, if not more, they have been rolling on the concrete ... 80, here is a photo

[Bad_gr]

Quote: siberko

this Rostock has been experiencing for 10 years, if not more, they are rolling on the concrete ..

BTR-90 - has long been tested and even adopted, only with the Serdyukovsky Defense Forces it was practically not purchased for the Army.
And in the article we are talking about a hybrid chassis, only for its run-in they took a box from the BTR-90 (moreover, even the first modifications of the "Rostok", as can be seen from the water cannons, which in later models were taken out of the body).

[mogus]

God forbid that they let him into the series. The same transmission repair will take a couple of hours in the field (replace the cable / electric motor). Or at least developed it on others.

[Lopatov]

You look at the size of its engine compartment. This is not even a prototype, it is a technology demonstrator. Before the series, even as before Beijing with cancer.

[mogus]

but these are very good technologies. It’s easier to repair - there is no gearbox, gearboxes, instead of this set of gears - a generator for gearbox and an electric motor for gearbox, cables instead of shafts.

[Lopatov]

Problems in size and maintainability. How to debug, then you can talk about something. By the way, there is a demonstrator based on the BMP-3

[mogus]

the size may be due to the location of the "batteries". We do not know their layout - maybe the batteries are located in the MTO ... In the future, they can be located in the center of the troop compartment under the seats, for example ...
I agree, we must wait for development

[Varnaga]

MNEs and batteries are located in such a way as to ensure an increase in the mine resistance of the BKM.

[siberko]

here he is in Kubinka at the museum

[siberko]

and here in the photo

[kpox]

I spoke in the next topic .... here I will simply ask: "Who read" Vivat, Emperor "and" Armageddon "" Zlotnikov? Doesn't it look like anything? "

[Landwarrior]

Yes Yes Exactly If you read what Zlotnikov wrote in the preface ...

[AVV]

In fact, it would have been nice to test it in a quagmire, mud and snowdrifts, but we probably haven’t managed yet, and a good car will be no worse than its foreign counterparts !!! Maybe after a number of improvements the troops will enter the army ???

[Prapor Afonya]

I am glad that the BTR-90 project was not put under the cloth, as it was with many other prototypes, I hope we will still see it in battle!

[Asgard]

Electric motors have a negative heat dissipation from the windings ...
The weight of the Btr is decent and there must be a powerful Motor-wheel, in addition, its degree of reliability in difficult operating conditions is low ...
It should be borne in mind that when such a machine is in the zone of 30 km of a nuclear explosion, it will lose almost 100% of its motion, EMP pulse?
So YaMZ with mechanics taxis)))))
Although it is necessary to develop, but it is easier and more reliable to do ...

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Asgard

The weight of the Btr is decent and there must be a powerful Motor-wheel, in addition, its degree of reliability in difficult operating conditions is low.

This chassis has not a "motor-wheel", but a "motor-semi-axle", which in my opinion is better, since the motors are in the case in more comfortable conditions than in the wheel.

[mogus]

half shaft motor - stands on the body. Heat can be transferred to the body from the motor.

[Varnaga]

Lord, I read comments and quietly go nuts)) What heat dissipation to the case?)) The heat sink was optimized on the first two prototypes and there are practically no problems with it)) In general, thermal calculation is the first condition when designing electric motors, generators.

[mogus]

the problem was, how was it solved?
in the same computers they put radiators. solve the problem of heat dissipation when it is impossible to increase the area of ​​the engine itself due to ribs (space is limited). how else can this be solved ..?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: mogus

the problem was, how was it solved?
in the same computers they put radiators. solve the problem of heat dissipation when it is impossible to increase the area of ​​the engine itself due to ribs (space is limited). how else can this be solved ..?

Can be liquid cooled. Even the motor wheel came across a liquid-cooled description. But the armored personnel carrier has enough space under the floor to put a more powerful electric engine, which does not overheat even with air cooling.

[mogus]

predictions are not the most rewarding thing. An interesting car, but with fortune-telling as much in the subject on ... whether. It would be better to see once than to assume so many times

[Flooding]

Quote: Asgard

It should be borne in mind that when such a machine is in the zone of 30 km of a nuclear explosion, it will lose almost 100% of its motion, EMP pulse?

In view of the active development of EMP ammunition, you will not have to wait for a nuclear explosion.
True, in our time, the equipment on the internal combustion engine is also stuffed with electrics and electronics for the most I do not want.

[Lopatov]

Military equipment has been protected from EMP from the 60s of the last century.

[Flooding]

Quote: Spade

Military equipment has been protected from EMP from the 60s of the last century.

Shovels, can I have a closer look? Protecting an entire unit or individual nodes?

[Lopatov]

Easier as a whole. The case is like a Faraday cage, the outputs are filters.

[dustycat]

And here there are no options.
Housing with conductive gaskets in hatches.
Shielding wiring.
Filter on introductory devices.
Electrical isolation of external unshielded circuits from internal protected circuits.

In any case, even with the defeat of the EMP, to stand for 5-20 seconds in place - until the semiconductors are restored (turned off (most likely the automatics will be de-energized), waited, turned on) - not a big problem.
Hexagonal CMOS keys remain operational when burned up to 60% of the cells. The cells are connected through metal conductors fading during short circuit in the key and the defective cell further does not interfere with the operation of the entire device.

[dustycat]

Quote: Spade

Military equipment has been protected from EMP from the 60s of the last century.

And all to no avail.
The maximum that they could - reduce the recovery time and the likelihood of defeat.
The Yankees do not want to return to the lamps.
And the Japanese partially returned. In the output circuits. Got better. But still. Lamp control systems could not be mastered.

[Varnaga]

The issue was resolved with warmth, the windings were burning on the first two prototypes, then the developers decided this issue

[Russ69]

They made the first sample, exclusively for testing. Now they will bring to mind what will take more than one year. The main thing is that we do not stand still ...

[Varnaga]

Your skepticism is not justified, everything is on the ointment

[Mikhail3]

I completely agree. In addition, I hope that these works will finally help the unfortunate civilian hybrids. Because Professor (never get on cards with a man named Professor !) Of course he is right, their consumption is low ... if you have the opportunity to change the car every two years. Having lost innocent freshness factory settings and bringing microns from the working surfaces hybrids begin to eat as if it was not a modern car but a grandfather "cleaver". Information from mechanics who repair these miracles of technology in droves. Only a complete replacement of both units helps ... This is what we have to cope with. It can and will come out, although ... the experiments began in the Second World War. There is, of course, progress ...

[Professor]

Quote: Mikhail3

if you have the opportunity to change the car every two years?

Well yes. And who then will buy this voracious two-year hybrid from you? Before you write such nonsense, at least in the forum, you asked users. Enlightenment why this hybrid through 2 of the year begins to eat not measured? (hint, the battery warranty is there 8! years)

[experienced]

Quote: Mikhail3

of course right, their consumption is low ... if you have the opportunity to change the car every two years. Having lost the innocent freshness of the factory setting and bringing microns from the working surfaces, the hybrids begin to eat as if it were not a modern car but a grandfather "cleaver". Information from mechanics who repair these miracles of technology in droves.

My brother-in-law bought the Prius with novya, the car has been used in traffic jams for 3 years in Moscow, and therefore the consumption is about 5 liters per 100 km, I think this is normal, because I drive myself and more than 15 liters per 100 fly out into the pipe ... We’ll now sell , it became possible to buy a good car cheaply for cheap and it was a sin not to use it ... For 3 years of operation, my son-in-law had no problems. The familiar Lexus hybrid of 2009 is all normal, although he’s ready to change the batteries already (mentally and financially)

[Mikhail3]

It’s just that I have some familiar guys whom these cars drive from Moscow to work very professionally. Sometimes hybrids stand in line in the yard in a row, while nonresident owners do not sit, there are waitresses themselves. But the mechanics themselves do not like these things and call this particular problem of hybrids the main one. As they say for what I bought, for that I sell it. I don’t own the topic (I need to know electrical engineering many times better than mine, the processes are very subtle there), I reason purely on the results.
In the war they tried ... it didn’t roll. Immediately after the war, buses were launched around Moscow - the consumption was simply unbelievable, I had to unscrew it. All this time, for some 50 years of all, the theme has been stubbornly developed, but there have been no discoveries, just the process of grinding and refinement was going on. What in such cases happens to any equipment, regardless of the specific device?
This means that I had to polish the equipment to the limit, to perfection, there is no development resource and safety margin. Well, perfection is a weak, fragile thing. Depends on the perfection of all parts and details, just a little bit went wrong - everything spills sharply. An example is push-pull engines. They give good power, they stand on racing engines ... but it is impossible to seriously operate. A little zilch worked, and the whole engine. Now, if some kind of electric motors appeared fundamentally new, or revolutionary batteries ... And so - a dead end to perfection.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Mikhail3

An example is push-pull engines. They give good power, they stand on racing engines ... but it is impossible to seriously operate. A little zilch worked, and the whole engine.

Among ship engines, two-stroke engines are quite justified. In addition, and their efficiency (ship) for 50% http://www.membrana.ru/particle/2755


Two-stroke engines also performed well on shunting diesel locomotives (in-line, with two crankshafts).

[aud13]

I understand correctly that due to the energy from the batteries, the machine can go a fairly large distance?
If so, this means that in the event of a breakdown on the march, it will not be necessary to slow down the entire column, but calmly get to the place where the armor can be repaired most safely. A very useful addition to other improvements.

[Professor]

Quote: aud13

I understand correctly that due to the energy from the batteries, the machine can go a fairly large distance?
If so, this means that in the event of a breakdown on the march, it will not be necessary to slow down the entire column, but calmly get to the place where the armor can be repaired most safely. A very useful addition to other improvements.

... or you can simply swap the power cable from a similar hybrid and "tow" that way.

[viktorR]

Madly plus. All the same, such a system is no less reliable than the usual one.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: aud13

I understand correctly that due to the energy from the batteries, the machine can go a fairly large distance?

A long distance is unlikely. He does not have a battery with batteries, but electrochemical capacitors. They are more advantageous than: during braking, the capacitors are charged, and during acceleration they give energy, help the main engine. In general, it is beneficial with jerky movement and in the mountains, the same. Given that the movement in the column is constant acceleration and deceleration - the capacitors are just right. But a heavy large battery that would provide a 20-ton armored personnel carrier for a long time to move - in my opinion, to nothing.

By the way, the same applies to all other hybrids: with prolonged uniform movement (for example, a long-distance bus), their use will not bring benefits. But the jerking ride in the city is their element.

[Varnaga]

There are MNEs (for acceleration and regenerative-rheostatic braking) and batteries (for driving at a constant speed) + blocks of brake resistors (for braking at a speed of ~ 25 km / h).

[experienced]

Quote: Varnaga

there are also MNE

Ingenium, you’ve got my cashier, like I used to have ... The time to throw stones has passed, I started collecting You were not standing here ...

[Varnaga]

Your information is outdated, the same MNEs operate in the range from -50 to +70.
The price is about a third more, but the platform will not be used as traditional APCs either

[Varnaga]

BKM LKM will be used where a powerful source of electricity on board is required, i.e. electronic warfare, radar, air defense systems, etc.

[sergey158-29]

Thanks to the designers for experimenting! This topic is promising, difficult, so patience and work are needed, and as you know ... they will help create a new platform. The main thing is that "she-platform" docked with the BOOMERANG.

[Varnaga]

answered above + high cost (about a third), the redundancy of some solutions (by weight, respectively by security [but not mine), low technical sophistication of many solutions). BUT BKM LKM with ET creates an excellent reserve for development in the future, up to full robotization)

[Gorchilin]

Nonsense, too complicated, a lot of details, a large consumption of non-ferrous metals and valuable materials. Of course, overweight, bulky equipment. In the event of a possible flooding (combat vehicles either float or become wet in the rain), there will most likely be high-voltage electrical breakdowns. On a regular car, that is garbage, the AZR shot and business. Here, the voltage is high, it will make a lasting impression on the crew.

What is intended for the army should be technically simple, maintainable, cheap.

For a long time they tried to apply electric transmissions on military equipment (starting with ferdinands), each time unsuccessfully. It would seem that the IS-6 suffered from this, but no, not fate. The moron is back again.

Much more interesting would be the idea of ​​a combination of a marching diesel and an engine for a combat mode (gas turbine or forced gasoline). This idea has already been applied in the Navy and on the BTVT.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Gorchilin

This idea has already been applied in the Navy and on the BTVT.

On BTVT, it seems that only the Swedes

[Gorchilin]

That's right, Strv 103

This is not to say that the idea was 200% successful, but there is already some precedent

[Varnaga]

We also forgot the "NV1 system" based on the Boxer, although there is practically no information about it on the internet. And there are plenty of other developments.

[Lopatov]

Serial only one. Everything else is not worth considering.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Gorchilin

Nonsense, too complicated, a lot of details, a large consumption of non-ferrous metals and valuable materials. Of course, overweight, bulky equipment. In the event of a possible flooding (combat vehicles either float or become wet in the rain), there will most likely be high-voltage electrical breakdowns. On a regular car, that is garbage, the AZR shot and business. Here, the voltage is high, it will make a lasting impression on the crew.

What is intended for the army should be technically simple, maintainable, cheap.

".... The company reports that the hybrid giant consumes an average of 20% less fuel compared to a similar but purely diesel HEMTT-A2.

20% savings is not bad. The consumption of the standard version of the eight-wheeled “rogue” from Oshkosh is 59-78 liters per 100 kilometers.

However, not saving fuel (and money) as such is important for an army vehicle, but increasing the maximum range on one tank. Now it is 773 kilometers against 644 for a diesel analog. For generals who enthusiastically draw arrows on maps, this increase in “reach” means, sometimes, the possibility or impossibility of delivering ammunition and fuel to the front line.

A HEMTT-A3 uses a 400 horsepower diesel engine, which rotates the generator by 305 kilowatts, as a power plant. A 460-volt electric motor drives through the transmission of the wheel.
The batteries in the car are unusual - these are supercapacitors, with a total capacity of 1,5 megajoules. Frankly speaking, in comparison with the energy content of diesel fuel - crumbs. You won't get far. But when a diesel engine fails (in combat conditions), even the 150 given by these batteries, or even all 400 meters of course, among stones, sand and craters from shells can mean for the crew the difference between life and death.

There is one more important advantage of the hybrid HEMTT over its usual relative. Replacing a diesel engine in the field on a serial machine takes up to 24 hours, and on a hybrid one - 20 minutes. Thanks to the modular design and the absence of a mechanical link between the diesel and wheels ..... " http://www.membrana.ru/particle/3070

[Bad_gr]

I apologize, in the top photo is not a hybrid, but his relative (on the basis of which the hybrid was made)
The hybrid itself looks like this:

[ramsi]

here is the usual transmission.
In addition, if you try to figure it out, then the whole win of hybrid cars is based on the recovery of braking and turning off the engine in traffic jams and when driving with low traction. There two engines are connected in parallel to the transmission, here - capacitors spur the wheelbarrow. If there can be double fuel economy, then here it is completely impossible. Apparently, the win is really obtained, even despite the excessive conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy. However, if we use something more familiar as energy accumulators: a flywheel, as they once suggested, or compressible air, then the result of a traditional propulsion system could be better

[Bad_gr]

Quote: ramsi

However, if you use something more familiar as energy accumulators: a flywheel, as you once suggested,

Why "as it was once suggested"? and are now using.
In "Formula 1" that barrel, which accumulates energy, and then adds the accumulated to the engine on acceleration - it has a motor-generator with a flywheel.

[ramsi]

I forgot to throw a stone in the direction of pure hybrids with their "two-fold" reduction in fuel consumption.
Savings will be noticeably less if you do not recharge the batteries from the network.
Hybrids are initially more expensive.
Hybrids become much cheaper in the second or third year of operation, because the battery will be replaced.
So, if you count the total savings per circle ...
Those who really "save" do not "go". The effect is akin to a low-power engine mounted on a variator. By the way, if it was possible to create a variator for good power and an acceptable resource, they would not even remember about hybrids. Well, except for the green

[Gorchilin]

This is nonsense. Let's throw away the generator, complex distributors, thick wires and heavy batteries - can you imagine how much space and weight you saved? Other things being equal, hybrids just don't have a chance.

By the way, for reference. The mayor of New York on environmental whim demanded to transfer ALL taxis to hybrids. Translated ALL. And what? The experiment failed miserably! Hybrids were significantly expensive in operation. They did not provide any savings

Concern with hybrids is in fact the attempts of a fat man from the series "what else to eat to lose weight"

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Gorchilin

This is nonsense. Let's throw away the generator, complex distributors, thick wires and heavy batteries - can you imagine how much space and weight you saved? Other things being equal, hybrids just don't have a chance.

Let's first decide which hybrids we are talking about.
There are hybrids that can drive both ICE and batteries.
And there are hybrids that are closer to cars with electric transmission (that is, the battery capacity is minimum).
For heavy military equipment, driving somewhere far away on batteries is hardly necessary, and hardly possible. But in a multi-wheeled vehicle (BTR), an electric transmission can take up much less space than a box with razdatki, gearboxes and differentials. Yes, and build this whole thing can be more rational. I think that the efficiency of electric transmission (without any recuperators) is lower than the efficiency of mechanics, but those who saw how many shafts of boxes with gearboxes are crammed into an APC will understand that electric transmission is much simpler.

[ramsi]

damn, I don’t even know what to object ... Even with recuperators it should be lower. But there is an ideal - a variator. But there is reality - it is unreal

[rugor]

And I would have bought one for myself, to go to nature.

[common man]

1. Comrades, where did you see in the article that it can run on batteries? "... the power plant includes a block of energy storage units, which includes electrochemical capacitors, ..." Batteries and capacitors are two different things. And the weight of the capacitors is much less, as far as I know.
2. The article is not a docking. In the text "motor-axle shaft", and in the picture the motor-wheel.
3. Not so long ago there was an article that the same is being developed in Ukraine. I spoke out there, but I repeat. Electric transmission makes sense on multi-axle chassis. No need for multiple driveshafts, gearboxes. Weight saving should be substantial. And reliability is higher.
4. Fears of an EM pulse in nuclear explosions I think are in vain. In any modern technology, there is so much electronics that will fly out in a nuclear explosion that it is too much to fear for traction motors.

[Letterksi]

The machine pleased

[aud13]

Quote: man in the street

1. Comrades, where did you see in the article that it can run on batteries? "... the power plant includes a block of energy storage units, which includes electrochemical capacitors, ..." Batteries and capacitors are two different things. And the weight of the capacitors is much less, as far as I know.

The 3,37 film says that there is a quiet mode of motion on a molecular drive.
What kind of drive is this?
Another question is interesting to me, but the question of installation was not considered on tracked vehicles? If so, what are the benefits, if any?

Thank you professor, the thought of replenishment from the side seems interesting to me.

[Professor]

Quote: aud13

Thank you professor, the thought of replenishment from the side seems interesting to me.

The thought is not mine. In one of my articles I described a hybrid where so much electricity was generated that, if necessary, it fed almost the entire unit to the post.

[Lopatov]

And which one had to be charged before this with the entire base. In addition, requiring storage of constant charge is by no means a small battery. Left the car for three months without this, change the running batteries.

[NOMADE]

Quote: Postman

Quote: mogus

Heat from the engine can be supplied to the "batteries"

it will not give anything
traction batteries, and so having limited durability, poorly tolerate low temperatures characteristic of Russia, temperature differences and often poor culture of operation and maintenance. And their cost is the lion's share of the total cost of the hybrid power plant.
And the weight is much greater than the weight of the fuel (hydrocarbon), necessary to obtain the same result.
AND MAIN:
when implementing the concept of a hybrid vehicle (or electric vehicle), MAXIMUM LIGHTEN THE WEIGHT of the vehicle, MAXIMUMLY EXCLUDE ENERGY CONSUMERS.

PRESENTING A CARTON BTR, without a control system, a military vehicle, a TOWER ELECTRIC DRIVE, a fan-and-ventilation unit, an air-charging unit, without an air conditioner and an electric (hydraulic booster) ... Brrr.
who needs it?

At the expense of the point that frost does not tolerate ..., I have to upset you :-) thing :-) it reminds me of the epic about the prius. they say she doesn’t eat .., the batteries quickly break down, it does not start in the cold. but in fact: it goes, the batteries tirelessly go more than its internal combustion engine, starts up without problems and drives at minus 40 .... as confirmation - the popularity of this machine in the world and in the air :-) Don pairs for spelling, everything from the tablet it’s not convenient to write (

[max702]

It will be so. Electronics every year becomes cheaper and cheaper mechanics. with accs the same trend. I would like to note that you need not one large-size diesel generator, but 2-4 small-universal ones, and the reliability of the system is higher and the layout is arbitrary. and maintainability. Yes, and profitability will increase (for which all four will be driven when one pulls well) and if you look at interchangeability, that is, a regular seat and fasteners, the DG on an armored personnel carrier or BMP breaks down and is thrown from the truck or jeep and vice versa. and due to a large series of identical DG units, the cost will drop sharply. For reliability, look at forklifts in warehouses how they are operated there. They drive in the tail and mane almost around the clock and nothing works with normal maintenance, the resource is huge and measured for years. Protection from moisture and dirt is a matter of competent engineering and high-quality manufacturing. And I forgot such a huge plus in my opinion is the use of any unit of such equipment as an autonomous source of electricity, and this is light and heat and food, and much more.

[lucidlook]

On this platform, you can put different engines as a source of torque. Very different, not only diesel, but also GTE or even such exotic as Stirling engine. The main thing is that the batteries do not die in the cold (pebbles in the garden of new-fangled lithium polymers).

[artgrad]

Yo-mobile in armor, the same principle or similar!

[family tree]

The other day it became known that the "Military-Industrial Company" created and tested a new armored car

Recently it became known that the "Military Industrial Company" has created a stand for testing, working out and detecting childhood diseases of electric transmission, created on the basis of valve inductor electric machines and a capacitor energy storage. In tests, good results were obtained. All. Much has been written about the benefits. I give out a fly in the ointment. The combat weight of the BTR-90, with a hydromechanical transmission, is the same 22 tons as that of the "Krymsk", which has no weapons. The trouble with electric transmissions, more weight, compared to mechanical and hydromechanical. For armored vehicles, the criterion is one of the most important.

[ilya63]

full of crap.
with YaMZ with a capacity of 360 mares and a manual transmission, it’s just a song for reliability, about reliability (a diesel engine generally doesn’t need any electrics but it’s true) and I don’t even want to compare the ease of maintenance (who really went through knows how to make field repairs, and even troops almost as well), in addition, the energy generated by a diesel engine does not increase by electric transmission but only converts (purely physics), while the losses will be significantly higher than the traditional transmission, in general there are more minuses than pluses, and most importantly for short short-circuiting (in case of armor breakdown, undermining, etc. delights) people will get an electric shock or are guaranteed to be fried, but armored personnel carrier is still necessary for delivering people to the place of keeping the base and supporting them with fire if necessary, just when professionals (in this case, designers and military ) Replace with all sorts of managers it turns out such crap (however everywhere it is - some tricks)

[lucidlook]

There is no doubt that there is a rational grain in your words. But still, you should not think that an electric transmission at such capacities and masses is worse than a mechanical one. A simple example is a gearbox. Its weight is comparable to the weight of the generator. But you also need an on-board generator to power BTR’s electrical circuits. Nevertheless, no one faints from electric shocks in case of breaking through the armor.

Further, the power loss from friction in the gearbox itself must also be taken into account. Plus a chance of block failure. Also not the strongest link. Doubt it? And here are the reviews about BTR-82:

Defects discovered during production and operation in 2012 by the nature of occurrence were distributed as follows (in% of the total):
1. Manufacturing defects 23,7%: defective speedometer, hydraulic lock, axle gearbox, transfer case;
2. Defects of suppliers of components 35.3%: clutch, PZD, automatic protection, starter, electric motor, power steering;
3. Improper operation of 40,6%: coolant leak from the cylinder head, wear of the driven discs clutchadjusted gear shift drive, failure of the circuit breaker and starter, shaft failure transfer case destruction of gearboxes.

Source http://russianarms.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=2536
My selection.

In BTR-82a something was corrected, but, alas, not completely. So with mechanics, too, things are not so simple and smooth.

As you know, in the case of electric motors there is no need for a gearbox. As for the delivery of fighters, we must also consider this: the BTR-82 weighing 15 tons has a range of 500 km, and this model with a mass of 22 tons - 940 km. There is a difference? Yes, I understand that the mass is big, but after all this is just a test of the concept! I am sure there is a huge margin in terms of reducing both mass and dimensions. Let's not rush to conclusions.

[ramsi]

and with such a complex transmission it is not necessary to drive at a speed of 100 km / h. I would, in general, constructively limit it to sixty. And he hid the red "afterburner" button under the glass with the inscription: break only in emergency. Then the gears would break less, and the consumption would be more acceptable.
As for the consumption of 22 tons per 940 km - I do not know how they calculated, I doubt even that the car has gone through so much. Most likely, measured under ideal conditions (while driving on capacitors) and extrapolated to the entire tank

[Fofan]

Yobtr! cool! I threw the prokhorov idea?

[Nova]

Here it is, what you need!

[Kostyanich]

Toyota Prius Yesterday
amers went further and created Tesla (completely on batteries)
plus free charging along all tracks
sorry we have nothing like this observed

[bubble82009]

the car is impressive. but ... in sizes larger than the BTR-80, they showed the type on the ground actually moving along concrete slabs. would show how on the ground and dirt creeps. poor clearance does not change

[Bad_gr]

Quote: bublic82009

Ashina is impressive. but ... larger than BTR-80,

The electric transmission is on the BTR-90 box, and it is heavier and larger than the BTR-80 initially.

[tilovaykrisa]

Global trends on environmental friendliness and profitability have reached the domestic defense industry.

[shvindin2012]

The best option would be to install hydrogen fuel cells with a battery. The advantages of liquid hydrogen fuel over diesel are huge. Firstly, liquid hydrogen in its energy of combustion is 3 times superior to diesel or gasoline. Secondly, the use of fuel cells is characterized by high efficiency up to 80%, because of this low fuel consumption and compactness. A battery in conjunction with a fuel cell will reduce the already low consumption of hydrogen fuel, well, and make it more autonomous in the event of a lack of fuel. Many automotive concerns, such as Mersedes-Bence, Ford, as well as Japanese executives joined the production of such cars in the near future. The only problem is the lack of proper infrastructure and the high cost of both the battery and fuel cells. (

[alex86]

Something that no one (or did not see) commented on the illustration in the article with "wheel / caterpillar turn" - is this how to understand if a caterpillar can be put on the wheels in pairs? Returning to wheeled-tracked vehicles (in a good way)? Who can say what?

[ramsi]

no, it’s how it unfolds in a tank in place: on one side, the wheels spin forward, on the other side back; Well, there is an ordinary steering

[alex86]

I do not agree, a deviation of 10 degrees of the front two axles is indicated

[Bad_gr]

Quote: alex86

Something no one (or did not see) commented on the illustration in the article with "wheeled / tracked turn"

In my opinion, this picture, like the motor-wheel, has nothing to do with the article. So, purely for information that designers have such thoughts.

[alex86]

Well, then the article is almost "about nothing" - like a protocol of intent ... Somehow I would not want to.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: alex86

Well, then the article is almost "about nothing" - like a protocol of intent ... Somehow I would not want to.

Why "nothing". On testing a promising electric transmission.

Here is an article about her.
http://rosinform.ru/2013/07/17/konstruktory-vpk-sozdali-shassi-krymsk-s-gibridno
y-energoustanovkoy-dlya-perspektivnogo-bronetransportera_01 /

[Assistant]

I didn’t catch where the ICE is located at the hybrid: is it still in the stern? Will its dimensions allow it to be transported to the front of the machine, and to position the doors in the stern?

[master_rem]

The latter has a number of interesting features. In particular, it is equipped with the so-called field winding, which allows to optimize the coordination of the diesel engine and generator.
What is so special about it? Any generator has an OB

[svp67]

At the moment, the Krymsk chassis is a purely experimental machine built to test a number of new technological solutions.

As a chassis for creating an BRM in the first place, I think it is very promising, quiet and not gluttonous ...

[I think so]

The stupid idea is to move multi-ton military vehicles with an ELECTRIC MOTOR ... Not only is it unreliable, but also the cost of a COPPER wire for wartime is an IMPOSSIBLE task ... Copper even in peacetime is a HUGE deficit and STRATEGIC material ... And spend copper on ELECTRIC MOTOR in an infantry fighting vehicle or a tank ... one couldn’t come up with any more stupidity ... When the war begins (God forbid) the country will not be able to release armored vehicles in large quantities precisely because of the LACK of COPPER ... Such designers that need to be exhaled to show off for I. Eggs ivat, not to mention in laudatory little articles ...

[master_rem]

and why direct current? IGBT transistors have not heard about, no?