Cossack saber - Japanese katana: what are the similarities and differences?

About this weaponsas a Cossack checker, it has already been written so much that at first glance it might seem that nothing new can be learned. However, this simple weapon is surrounded by such a huge number of myths and secrets that only Japanese katanas can compete with drafts in this regard.

The legends of the Cossack saber were born in direct connection with those who used it. Many historians have so far been convinced that this type of weapon was born among the Cossacks, and that in the same environment there was an improvement in both the design and the methods of using these weapons. However, in reality it is not. But first things first.

Of course, when the Cossacks appeared just like a class, there was no question of a checker. All the Cossack units were armed in the same way as other military formations, both their own and the enemy (Turks, Poles, Germans ...), that is, the simplest ordinary sabers. Moreover, all these sabers were different, depending on what was possible to get in the campaigns. Later, when the Cossacks were already part of the army, the situation changed a little, although it was possible to finally unify the weapons closer to the end of the nineteenth century. Until that time, the orders contained only a vague requirement, which stated that the checker must of course be an Asian type with an arbitrary finish.

It is worth saying a few words about how the Caucasian model hit the Cossacks, while the rest of the troops used broadswords and sabers in the European manner. Checker originates from a large knife. Actually, in translation from Circassian the word "checker" means "big knife". For the first time in written sources, this word is mentioned back in 1625, by Giovanni de Luca. Cossacks borrowed this type of weapon in the Caucasus, after which the checkers found their distribution not only in the Russian army, but also in the territory of Central Asia. Initially, checker was considered a secondary weapon with a saber. Its distinguishing characteristic was a single-edged, slightly curved long blade, an hilt without a handle with a splitting head and without protective devices. As a rule, they wore a sword almost under the armpit on the left, but when firearms appeared in service with the Highlanders, and the need for a full-fledged saber disappeared, it was the sword that came out on top. Soon it was adopted by the Russian army as a statutory type of cold arms. Despite the fact that this type of weapon came from the Caucasus, regular Russian troops received a slightly modified model, which was called the Asian-type saber. And the whole thing was that the requirements for this weapon were different: if the Caucasus needed compactness and convenience for concealed carrying, then for the Cossacks it was mainly massiveness (blade weight) and convenience in battle.

In 1881, the checkers officially appeared in each of the artillery units. Then such types of drafts appeared as dragoon, officer, Cossack saber, artillery maid.

In the status of a registered weapon, the checker remained almost until the middle of the twentieth century, becoming the last type of cold steel that was used in mass battles during the Great Patriotic War. After that, the value of the checkers came to naught, because they appeared Tanks, machine guns and wire fences. Therefore, very soon the checker became a ritual item, belonging to the dress uniform. And in 1968 they began to consider her an honorary award weapon.

As for the Japanese samurai sword, also known as the "katana", it is considered one of the best samples of cold weapons in all history of existence. Such an opinion is expressed not by one or two people, this is the opinion of many generations of weapons experts all over the world.

In 710, a fencer named Akamuni for the first time used a sword that had a curved blade and was forged from several iron dissimilar plates. This sword had a saber profile and. differed from the saber by the technique of use: if the saber can be held with only one hand, the use of a katana provides for both one-handed and two-handed grip.

During the twelfth - nineteenth centuries the katana existed almost unchanged. Katana was considered a mandatory attribute of Japanese aristocrats, and only in the middle of the nineteenth century, after the Meiji revolution, officials were obliged to wear European-type swords.

For the Japanese population, the katana was not just a type of cold arms, but served as a reflection of the spirit of the nation, was a class symbol. And even despite the fact that the sword is far from being the most ancient Japanese weapon, it holds a special place in the national mentality. It should be noted that the first Japanese swords were very reminiscent of Chinese swords "Jian" and it was them that were used by the first samurai of the Middle Ages. But even then the sword was recognized as the weapon of the soul of the military caste. In addition, the sword was one of the attributes and sacred symbols of the power of the emperor, and besides - a distinctive feature of the social status of soldiers and the best gift (it was given to noble people, brought to churches during the days of celebration, presented to foreign ambassadors as a sign of respect).

The use of katanas in feudal Japan was more than cruel. To check the sharpness of the sword, they cut the prisoners to see how it affects the bones of the tissue. The fight, as a rule, lasted a few seconds, but the samurai still sought to master a variety of techniques, learn more cunning tricks to deceive the enemy and force him to make a mistake.

As for the present, the katana, like a checker, has become more ceremonial than a military weapon. One can argue about what is better - a sword or a samurai sword, because each of these types of weapons has its own advantages and disadvantages. But it is important to note that it is simply amazing how, in completely different cultures, on different continents, so sophisticated and functional blades appeared that went partly along the same historical path. At the same time, the first mentions of both the sword and the katana refer to approximately the same historical period.

Both the sword and the katana have a rich and deep history, so it is safe to say that for a long period of time they will be relevant among people, true connoisseurs of cold arms, collectors and reenactors of historical battles.

Materials used:
http://my.mail.ru/community/checker/3A74074BD0076550.html
http://my.mail.ru/community/checker/journal
http://kazak-krim.jimdo.com/%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%8C%D1%8F-%D1%88%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0/
http://forum.ohrana.ru/holodnoe-oruzhie/thread448.html
http://www.web-standart.net/magaz.php?aid=8671

Comments

[Syrzhn]

Thanks! The article is interesting, but there is no comparison here, what are the similarities and differences I did not understand. For example, how many man-hours on average did it take to make a katana, and how many checkers, what is their cost? If a month needs to be put "under arms" one hundred thousand fighters with what to arm them? Or if you need to prepare one fighter for a fight in a month? And the similarity of form and time of appearance is not surprising, many structures in the plant, animal world and architecture have a similar structure, simply because it is they that provide the maximum return at the minimum cost.

[Uncle Serozha]

Quote: Syrzhn

And the similarity of form and time of appearance does not surprise, many structures in the plant, animal world and architecture have a similar structure, simply because they provide maximum return at a minimum of cost.

Gold words. For some time I was engaged in "weapon" kobudo, so I will insert my five cents. The fact is that a significant part of the katana technique is cutting blows. True, for an outside observer, they look like injections. This is a penetrating blow (although there is no blow as such, it would be more correct to say "cut"), the task of which is to cut the arteries that are close to the skin. The main targets are the neck, wrists and (especially) the inner thigh. A deep cut in these areas damages the arteries, causing severe bleeding. A person is able to stay on his feet for about 30-40 seconds at rest, and if he moves - less than 20. Chopping blows, of course, are also there.
Strikes with a saber are mainly either chopping or stabbing. It is difficult to make a "cut" like a katana - because of the grip with one hand. To do it, you need to move the weapon forward, very firmly holding it in a straight line. It is very difficult to do this with one hand, the hand will bend at the wrist even in a strong person. I explain it clumsily, but I don't know how else to say it.
But with an equestrian match, a checker is probably better.
Although Japanese bushi were taught to cut with a one-handed grip, too. In particular, almost all of the yaijutsu techniques (a sharp grab of a katana from a "kneeling" position with the application of one strong blow and several finishing offers) is based on this. The first blow to the yay is always with a one-handed grip (with the second hand "obi" - the scabbard - you have to hold it).

[Jin]

Quote: Uncle Seryozha

The fact is that a significant part of the technique of working with katana is cutting strokes.

You +. On my own behalf, I would add that the katana fencing technique implies strikes "in step", a purely offensive technique, when both fighters attack and defend by advancing. As they write here katana "will not hold" a checker. Of course not, if you parry the blow "in European" The blow is received with the "retraction" of the opponent's blade. I did aikido for a bit, and there I also had to learn some of the katana fencing techniques. They worked with bokken (wooden swords) Often the energy of the enemy's blow is used to "swing" one's own blade. Simultaneous withdrawal from the line of attack, behind the enemy's back and hitting unprotected units. Very efficient and ergonomic technology. The weight of the checker will not save anyone here! Moreover, there is no saber fencing, in the classical sense, only a wheelhouse in a horse attack!

[Uncle Serozha]

Quote: Jin

As they write here katana "will not hold" a checker. Of course not, if you parry the blow "in European" The blow is received with the "retraction" of the opponent's blade.

Yes it is. A step when working with a katana means no less than a blade. Often, it is enough to retract the opponent's blade with a simultaneous step only a few centimeters and this will give a sufficient "gap", and at the same time will make a counterattack possible. If you remember the first kata, there is just about it.
True, all these steps do not work with horse cabin, as you rightly noted. And the reason is simple - bamboo. Due to the fact that everything overgrows with them, there are practically no pastures in Japan. And therefore there is almost no livestock, and only a VERY rich bushi could afford to have a horse. Japanese warrior - for the most part on foot warrior.
We had to take on our vast expanses and the Mongols, and Poles, and to hell with whom else. And the Cossack steppe is endless - one continuous pasture.
Therefore, it makes no sense to measure with the Japanese bolts.
And their ancestors were smart, and ours. And our geography is different. And anthropometry is different (we will be higher). And that means different tactics and weapons. And the katana differs from the checker in the same way as the T-34 from the Panther. Everything comes from the earth, from her darling!

[Jin]

Quote: Uncle Seryozha

If you remember the first kata, it’s about that.

It's nice to meet a person who really understands what he is writing about (I'm talking about your entire comment)! I also wrote that comparing a katana with a checker is not correct! Moreover, the duel of the heavy knightly cavalry with samurai! Three types of the most famous "armory" became those times: damask, damascus and, in fact, Japanese.

[old man54]

Quote: Jin

On my own behalf, I would add that the katana fencing technique implies strikes "in step", a purely offensive technique, when both fighters attack and defend by advancing.

It was interesting to see how you would attack with the same saber or even the enemy’s sword without taking a step (lunge) towards him? You, apparently, did aikido. Even defensive counter attacks are made at the substep, and not only in fencing, but also in karate, boxing, and in all kinds of martial arts.

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

It was interesting to see how you would attack with the same saber or even the enemy’s sword without taking a step (lunge) towards him?

What kind of sword, sword? Speech, about a katana. How not taking a step? I write the exact opposite! You, apparently, are a great ironicist, but no more ...
Can you see poorly, colleague? So read the post carefully. I read your posts and marvel, by golly! Write about the case in another post, below, and my post, from personal practice, at the same time, in some stupid laughs, you blame.

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

not making a step (lunge) to him?

Quote: Jin

On my own behalf, I would add that the katana fencing technique implies strikes "in step", a purely offensive technique, when both fighters attack and defend by advancing.

Quote: Jin

They worked with bokken (wooden swords) Often the energy of the enemy's blow is used to "swing" one's own blade. Simultaneous withdrawal from the line of attack, behind the back of the enemy and hitting unprotected units. Very efficient and ergonomic technology.

Matured, dear? I quote myself, especially for you.

[old man54]

Quote: Jin

Matured, dear? I quote myself, especially for you.

N-yes, I'm sorry, I didn’t understand the meaning of what you wrote! It happens, but I see 100%! :)
got excited

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

N-yes, I'm sorry, I didn’t understand the meaning of what you wrote! It happens, but I see 100%! :) belay
got excited drinks

Well, okay! While reading your competent posts further, I still could not understand how so! A man (one of the few who posted comments here), who really understands the essence of the discussion on this topic, suddenly rolled out such a comment, in my very robust post My attacks against you, do not consider as any kind of hostility. No, I was simply angry at my lack of understanding of your position on the issue. It seems to write everything in the subject, but here is such an embarrassment in the comment. Meet the same clothes but I see you off to your mind. Always respected people who are able to admit their wrong or a mistake.
Best regards

[old man54]

Quote: Uncle Serezha

The fact is that a significant part of the technique of working with katana is cutting strokes.

Of course, because you were given the fencing technique, which was already formed in the 18 century, i.e. when the time of constant bloody civil wars ended, the sumurai armor wore only on holidays, and the enemy in kimano presented an easy target, with the ability to cut and chop everything he wanted. Previously, the technique was much more complicated and sophisticated, because armor did not give such ease of maneuver. In a personal duel on the battlefield, first of all, the open parts of the body were struck: wrists, throat, armpits, back, back side of the knees. Katana technique is a pampering, a britain! But when on horseback, galloping, then tati chopped the enemy down with all the force, and often chopped to the waist!

This is a penetrating blow (although there is no blow as such, it would be more correct to say "cut"), the task of which is to cut the arteries that are close to the skin. The main targets are the neck, wrists and (especially) the inner thigh.

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

Of course, because you were given the fencing technique that was formed in the 18th century already

Responsible for writing? Then explain what prevented the person in the kimono from stupidly piercing? Manic prone to cutting? You contradict yourself and common sense. Why are you writing this heresy, also with such an avatar? You are funny!

Quote: old man54

Sumurai armor was worn only on holidays, and the enemy in the kimano presented an easy target, with the ability to cut and chop everything he wanted.

And without the ability to cut with a razor-sharp blade is not fate? That’s all this nonsense, good luck ...

[old man54]

Quote: Jin

Responsible for writing? Then explain what prevented the person in the kimono from stupidly piercing?

I answer! I live in Nvovsibirsk, come discuss it!
Pierced perfectly, the same blow tsuki-kettlebell, for example. Why did the profile of the katana become more direct, unlike the tati, so that it would be pricked, and it was not necessary to chop off the protective armor then.

You contradict yourself and common sense. Why are you writing this heresy, also with such an avatar? You are funny!

what am I contradicting except your hysteria ??? Examples !!! and to the heresy ... go get better in pussy with those who continue to argue here that any European knight in cast-iron clothing with a heavy two-handed sword would do a samurai with his tati or katana at a time. You go there, you will show off. There, and laugh, but I am at all of you!

And without the ability to cut with a razor-sharp blade is not fate? That’s all this nonsense, good luck ...

fate, if the enemy is without weapons, or the same muddler, as you seem. Something crazy with you on my critical post, my brain completely turned off, sorry, colleague! Have a nice one you too!

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

Something crazy with you on my critical post, my brain completely turned off, sorry, colleague!

Well, here it goes! This is not my nut. You yourself started this misunderstanding, I wrote to you about it above.

Quote: old man54

I answer! I live in Nvovsibirsk, come discuss it!
Pierced perfectly, the same blow tsuki-kettlebell, for example. Why did the profile of the katana become more direct, unlike the tati, so that it would be pricked, and it was not necessary to chop off the protective armor then.

Katana stabbing is not the rule, rather the exception. And the technique of fencing with it, in no way was based on conducting a duel, using an injection, as a blow deciding the outcome of the duel. I’m far from Novosibirsk from Samara. And so, in a friendly atmosphere, I would be with you on the tatami. With the subsequent drinking of beer (looking at the sights of your city) as a guest

Quote: old man54

and to the heresy ... go get better in pussy with those who continue to argue here that any European knight in cast-iron clothing with a heavy two-handed sword would do a samurai with his tati or katana at a time.

I take a diametrically opposite position on this issue (rather, I tend to win the samurai). I did not say that the knight is doing the samurai. But I do not build illusions regarding such fights. Everything is too ambiguous, I'm sure you understand what I mean.

[old man54]

Quote: Jin

Katana stabbing is not the rule, rather the exception. And the technique of fencing with it, in no way was based on conducting a duel, using an injection, as a blow deciding the outcome of the duel.

I agree that this is not the main thing! But then why did the bend completely disappear at the katana, after the tati? I admit, this is not entirely my opinion and only my opinion, I have met this statement more than once in the literature on the history of Japanese combat cold weapons, but I agree with him! Ah, I forgot, perhaps the main thing ... Tati was also intended for cavalry cavalry attacks of the samurai, and if she were direct, she would be stuck in the very first war, which would be unlucky to fall under her blow, and her master would be left without weapons, carried on further by his war horse ! Perhaps this is the main reason for the changes in her profile, because mass horse attacks were a thing of the past, but there were small skirmishes, palace coups, conspiracies, duel fights of honor. What say, colleague Eugene?

I’m far from Novosibirsk from Samara. And so, in a friendly atmosphere, I would be with you on the tatami. With the subsequent drinking of beer

The friendly atmosphere is wonderful! Tatami ... is also great, but here's my profile of the Okenawa Goju-Ryu carte, old school, and you have Aiki-do. It would be fun!
I don’t drink beer, and in general, I don’t drink alcohol for many years. and you would like our city, I guarantee!

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

Tatami ... is also great, but here's my profile of the Okenawa Goju-Ryu carte, old school, and you have Aiki-do. recourse It would be funny!

Well, colleague, yes ... even somehow I can’t even imagine! Yes, I mean tatami with swords (not combat naturally).

Quote: old man54

I don’t drink beer, and in general, I don’t drink alcohol for many years

Krasava, keep it up!

Quote: old man54

I agree that this is not the main thing! But then why did the bend completely disappear at the katana, after the tati?

Andryukha, I may not have understood, but tachi (tachi) has a more "straight" blade than a katana. Tsuba ... or tsuka, well, the guard and the hilt, I always confuse what is called, quite different ... And in general, tati is more a sword, and a katana is more a saber IMHO

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Andryukha, I may not have understood, but tachi (tachi) has a more "straight" blade than a katana.

Of course, I’m not Andryukha, but I’ll answer - the tachi, on the contrary, has a greater bend than the katana.

Quote: Jin

Tsuba ... or Tsuka, well, guard and hilt, I always confuse what is called quite different ...

The tsuka (hilt) of the wheelbarrow has a bend, unlike the hilt of a katana. The tsuba (guard) of the katana and wheelbarrow are not fundamentally different.

[old man54]

Quote: Jin

Andryukha, I may not have understood, but tachi (tachi) has a more "straight" blade than a katana. Tsuba ... or tsuka, well, the guard and the hilt, I always confuse what is called, quite different ... And in general, tati is more a sword, and a katana is more a saber IMHO

Tati's photo is not attached to me, I'm sorry. There, at the bottom of the branch, the nickname "MG 42" seems to have hung a photo of the tati's sword, look, the deflection is clearly visible there.
here is wikipedia for convincing:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Японский_меч

[Setrac]

Quote: Uncle Seryozha

Drafts with a saber are mainly either chopping or stitching.

This is not true, the curved shape itself implies a cutting blow, a specialization of any curved blade weapon. You simply are not familiar with the Russian technique of fencing, or Cossacks.

[Vasily T.]

Here, let me disagree with you on a part. Like chopping, yes. How stinging is unlikely. To do this, just look at the guard, or rather its absence. With a stabbing stroke, the brush can freely slip along the hilt to the heel and there the blade is not far away. If we talk about officer checkers, injections are quite possible there, the reason is the presence of a bow.
I consider the main task of the checker - chopping and cutting strokes.
Katana - cutting and stitching punches.

[Joffrey]

Here’s just a checker chopping and piercing weapons, unlike a saber, you just need the right one (grip), if you hold the weapon incorrectly you won’t be able to make a shot or hit. Then there are options for sharpening: Don type checkers have sharpening (one and a half) for a certain combat mission, and it does not include cutting blows. A checker with a bow is in my opinion some kind of mass compromise.

[vjhbc]

all this is correct about the form, but about the use and the fact that katana is one of the best weapons, I'm sorry a little, the katana in 99% was made of very shitty metal and only 1% or maybe less was less at the level of and if someone does not believe he can look at the battle style of the Japanese and he will see that in this style there is minimal parry of blows of weapons to weapons and all sorts of tales about super skill and super katana were invented after the katana left the war scene, but the battle style was developed over many years and he speaks at meeting to atan with katana they simply break and fighters will remain without weapons

[carbofo]

As for working with a sword, one can watch Akira Kurosawa’s films as an example; work with a katana is well shown there, although it is somewhat specific.
There is no doubt that Katana is not a military weapon, the Americans are aware that they chopped a lot at the time.
Well, about the Checker, we know better from our history.

[Terrible ensign]

I agree with Syrzhn, it would be nice for the author to provide a more detailed overview of the accents placed by a colleague. Otherwise, we have a descriptive statement of the fact of similarity in the fate of these types of edged weapons, and the difference lies in the years of occurrence and territorial remoteness of distribution areas ...

[Orty]

In general, I read that the katana was overestimated, well, in the sense, the shape of the blade is really very successful, but since Japan did not have steel alloying technology, and the mined iron was of very poor quality, the swords turned out to be so-so. For example, in their fencing technique there is no block edge against the edge, since when this technique was formed, such an action led to the fact that one of the blades was chopped off. Katanas often bent and broke, so the samurai and dragged not one, but two or three swords. A break was provided for in duel matches, in case one of the opponents had a blade bent. In fact, katana was rather a status weapon, at first the samurai were horse archers, i.e. the bow was the main weapon, then a spear came, although their cavalry never reached the force of ramming like the European cavalry. Katana was more a weapon of last chance, well, like arrows ended, the spear broke or stuck in the body of the enemy, and here you grab the katana. Therefore, although I myself own a katana, I consider the enthusiasm for this weapon exaggerated, but somehow I clashed at a forum with a school that was sure that the katana would cut the rail. For me, a checker is much more effective and technologically advanced (in the sense of production) weapon, and besides, it is no less important.

[Refund_SSSR]

Of course overestimate!
These katanas are able to withstand only bamboo Japanese armor, but the essence is that the Japanese in those days never met with a REAL enemy ...
They would not try to oppose anything to the Maltese latnik in full armor with a halberd and not one, but a tight formation, and even with horse detachments.
Or chain mail of Russian knights and cavalry .. And on the left hand sews! In the right flail or slander - and goodbye samurai in paper armor ...
___
So completely useless toothpicks.
But Japanese bows - so this is all a laugh!

[Orty]

I agree, the Japanese, on the other hand, mostly cut each other, I think they would meet in battle with any European army of the XVI-XVII centuries would row non-illusory lyuley. No katana or bushido would save them.

[bazilio]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

They would try not to oppose anything to the Maltese latnik in full armor

Well, here you are right. For hacking such armor, European swords were not particularly suitable (well, maybe with the exception of heavy two-handed ones), there were more Klevets there, or axes.

[old man54]

Quote: bazilio

Well, here you are right. For hacking such armor, European swords were not particularly suitable (well, maybe with the exception of heavy two-handed ones), there were more Klevets there, or axes.

but heard about the naginata from the samurai? :) And her battle technique? 6)

[MG42]

The military equipment of Japanese medieval warriors is different from the armor of European knights. The basic elements and the general composition of lat samurai existed in Japan already in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. n e.
Armor fastened with leather or silk cords, consisted of more than 20 separate items, without reaching a weight of 12 kg. Compared to the armor of European knights, they provided much greater freedom of movement, not to mention the difference in weight. The Japanese military suit, which had many small holes, made it possible for the soldier's body to breathe freely, which is very important in a hot and humid Japanese climate.
Of course, such equipment was not easy to put on, even a whole ritual was developed for this: first, a lower dress was put on, then a hat and gloves, then wristlets, an upper dress and leg protection; then shoes, shell and neck protection. A helmet was worn only when necessary before the battle itself or during ceremonies, processions, etc. (he weighed 2-3 kg). Due to lacing, it was possible to adjust the armor to a figure and even put one on another.
Wearing such armor, the samurai could not only freely fight on horseback or on foot, run and even swim, but was also quite well protected - moving armor, like fish scales, covered his whole body, coming in edges against each other. In the campaign, such armor was folded into a small drawer in volume. At the same time, the safety of the armor was monitored very carefully, as well as the weapons. As a rule, good armor was handed down in a family from generation to generation.

[MG42]

The use of such armor in battle when the first gunshot appeared, katana = a great thing in close combat, of course, who masterly owned it, it’s a samurai ..

[Refund_SSSR]

In America, in the era of colonial wars and during the period of resettlement, Indians with bare butts successfully resisted armed detachments with firearms ... And following your logic, the Indians have a wonderful "ARMOR"! Sorry for the sarcasm - could not resist.

But try to compare the cutting damage from the katana, the war from head to toe, dressed in chain mail with a shield (and this is still a mobile warrior) and on the other hand, a samurai in plate armor against an ax, klevets or just a sword.
This is a beating of the baby, because the damage from the katana will be like a mop - bruises are painful but not fatal, at the same time, two three successful blows with an ax or a slinger is a guaranteed death.
And really worthy lamellar armor appeared in later periods.

And I must say in the battle with samurai armor peaks and spears were used, and when two samurai converged in a duel on katanas, they threw off their armor.

[MG42]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

In America, during the era of colonial wars and during the period of resettlement, Indians with bare ass successfully opposed armed detachments with firearms.

Where did I write this?

Quote: We refund_SSSR

And following your logic, the Indians have a wonderful "ARMOR"!

?????
Mobility of a samurai in the humid climate of Japan, less weight of armor, samurai could swim in armor, in the end
In a country consisting of islands - Japan, the ability to swim well is probably born with a person. This skill is dictated by necessity and is very important for the Japanese. Therefore, samurai studied swimming and elevated this skill to the rank of art. Theoretical knowledge was enshrined in practice. Often, battlefields were literally strewn with rivers, lakes or straits. Often wars were fought between the island inhabitants, and then swimming could save their lives or become a decisive step towards victory.
The water obstacle for the samurai was not only necessary to overcome it, but also complicated the task of moving armor and weapons. In Japan, the time of the feudal lords, soldiers were taught including the wisdom of swimming in armor. Kobo Ryu is one of the schools that perfected this skill. In addition to overcoming water obstacles with heavy equipment, the samurai learned, while remaining in the water, to use different weapons, conduct an underwater battle and even carry a banner on a long pole. Without exposing their armor, they could sail long distances for a long time.
Schools that teach samurai swimming in armor had their own specialization in natural barriers - their various widths and depths, surrounding terrain and features were taken into account. For example, some schools used mountain rivers.

Quote: We refund_SSSR

But I do not agree with you absolutely nothing .... Although you probably do not care

on such comments yes ..

[Refund_SSSR]

Be careful, I'm not talking about whether the samurai armor is good or not, but whether all the equipment and weapons in the aggregate are effective against the European.
Why pretend not to read the comment?
You unsubscribed under my first comment, where I initially juxtaposed two worlds and wrote that Japan developed along its torn path and never met with a real external enemy.

[MG42]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

Why pretend not to read the comment?

You are correcting your comments after I wrote your own, do not be tricked by the namesake ..

[Refund_SSSR]

From the previous I removed only a little rudeness
And I'm talking about my first comment, under which you unsubscribed, was published 4 hours earlier than yours ... so

[MG42]

To make it clear why the video from the movie "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise, = to show the combination of samurai armor and the use of a katana in battle, the latter naturally wins against a firearm, since the melee distance must still be approached under fire, those who watched in the last frames die under fire from a Gatling machine gun. The armor of a European knight in the hot, humid climate of Japan is questionable, the buoyancy of an ax will sink instantly ..

[old man54]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

I'm not talking about whether the samurai armor is good or not, but whether all the equipment and weapons in the aggregate are effective against the European.

more than will be good! Like a real master of Okinawan combat karate (not sports, namely combat) against a heavyweight boxer.

[old man54]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

But try to compare the cutting damage from the katana, the war from head to toe, dressed in chain mail with a shield (and this is still a mobile warrior) and on the other hand, a samurai in plate armor against an ax, klevets or just a sword.

Again bullshit sucked from a finger !!! I will not explain the samurai battle technique to you here, I’m already tired of writing to people like you. But there everything is so elementary, skillfully that ... :))

And I must say in the battle with the samurai armor, peaks and spears were used, and when two samurai converged in a duel on katanas, they threw off the armor

funny :)))

[Corneli]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

In America, in the era of colonial wars and during the period of resettlement, Indians with bare butts successfully resisted armed detachments with firearms ... And following your logic, the Indians have a wonderful "ARMOR"! laughing Sorry for the sarcasm - I couldn't resist.

And what was the "success"? The fact that the Spaniards (only they claimed to fight in armor) captured the South, Latin and South of North America in a couple of campaigns? At what it was easy to chop "bare-assed" cabbage at a ratio of 1 to 100?)
Or do you already consider American colonization? So, although they were so "naked-ass", they also delli Indians as they wanted. 20-30 colonists with guns fought off several thousand !!! Indians without any problems and losses.

Quote: We refund_SSSR

But try to compare the cutting damage from the katana, the war from head to toe, dressed in chain mail with a shield (and this is still a mobile warrior) and on the other hand, a samurai in plate armor against an ax, klevets or just a sword.
This is a beating of the baby, because the damage from the katana will be like a mop - bruises are painful but not fatal, at the same time, two three successful blows with an ax or a slinger is a guaranteed death.

In the west, as well as in Russia, there were EXTREMELY FEW warriors "dressed in chain mail from head to toe", say 100-200 hurried more or less seriously (and not the fact that from head to toe, there were only a few such soldiers) and 3-4 thousand anything (without protection of limbs, in a brigantine and a helmeted helmet). So chopping them with Japanese "mops" is not such a big problem). And if you take the same chained superman in the top helme with an ax and a shield (totaling a kilogram under 40 on him overweight), then it is not a fact that he will hit a light and mobile Japanese with his ax (except for a horse fight) ... Rather out of breath and get a sword into the joint (and chain mail with one-kilogram single-handed Europeans was quite decently cut). So it's difficult to "guarantee" something there.

[Orty]

Advertising is a good thing, but it seems to me that the chain mail was much better both in weight and mobility and compactness and even in ventilation !! As for swimming, this is certainly strong and I would give dearly that would take a look at it !!!

[MG42]

Quote: Orty

Advertising is a good thing,

What and where do I advertise? There are some advertisements on the site, for example, the writer Starikov or the deputy Fedorov, yes ..

Quote: Orty

but it seems to me that the chain mail was much better both in weight and mobility and compactness and even in ventilation!

prove your statement ..

Quote: Orty

As for swimming, this is certainly strong and I would give dearly that would take a look at it !!!

The Teutonians swam well on Lake Peipsi ..

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

Teutonians swam well on Lake Peipsi .. bully

Do you seriously think that having fallen under the ice on a horse, even WITHOUT ARMOR, just in winter clothes and shoes, someone will swim "well"?

[MG42]

Corneli, I understand your humor, but still on this branch you can <get a minus> or a katana or a checker .. Which weapon do you prefer?
And why did the Teutons fail, and the Russians did not, but overweight however ..

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

Corneli, I understand your humor, but still on this branch you can <get a minus> or a katana or a checker

There was no humor there, drowning in ordinary winter clothes, foot, having fallen under the ice in winter and now is no problem. Actually, I wrote that the reason for the drowning was rather not in armor, but where exactly and how they drowned)

Quote: MG42

Which weapon do you prefer?

The choice is only between a saber and a katana? And generally specify the parameters pliz

Quote: MG42

And why did the Teutons fail, and the Russians did not, but overweight however ..

1. According to one version, not all the Teutons fell through, but a small detachment, which draped flew into the melting ice. (Naturally, the Novgorodians were behind in this russlad and did not prank in dumb places.
2. The weight of an adult knight-type human is 80-90 kg. The weight of the chain mail armor and weapons of the Teutonic knight is 50-60 kg. The weight of a knightly draft horse is 700-900 kg. Do you think that armor played a fatal role there (in breaking ice)?

[MG42]

If you fold the knight's armor, horse armor, a massive saddle, whose weight is about 15 kg. and add the weight of the rider, about 90 kg., then the total weight was approximately 180 kg
Knightly war horses of the Middle Ages were called "destrie", which comes from the Latin "dextarius" - right-handed (apparently, the name is due to the fact that on the right side of the war horse there was usually a knight's squire). Destrie weight could reach 800-1000 kg. and more, and the height is 175-200 cm. With such a mass, the destries could not jump and overcome obstacles, moreover, they quickly got tired.
Several modern breeds of heavy vehicles claim to be descended from medieval war horses, for example, Perchersons (French heavyweights), Brabansons (Belgian heavyweights), Shires (English heavyweights).

Quote: Corneli

According to one version, not all Teutons fell through, but a small detachment, which draped flew into the melting ice.

Where is that written?

[Corneli]

Quote: Corneli

Quote: MG42
And why did the Teutons fail, and the Russians did not, but overweight however ..

2. The weight of an adult knight-type human is 80-90 kg. The weight of the chain mail armor and weapons of the Teutonic knight is 50-60 kg. The weight of a knightly draft horse is 700-900 kg. Do you think that armor played a fatal role there (in breaking ice)?

Quote: MG42

If you fold the knight's armor, horse armor, a massive saddle, whose weight is about 15 kg. and add the weight of the rider, about 90 kg., then the total weight was approximately 180 kg
Knightly war horses of the Middle Ages were called "destrie", which comes from the Latin "dextarius" - right-handed (apparently, the name is due to the fact that on the right side of the war horse there was usually a knight's squire). Destrie weight could reach 800-1000 kg. and more, and the height is 175-200 cm. With such a mass, the destries could not jump and overcome obstacles, moreover, they quickly got tired.
Several modern breeds of heavy vehicles claim to be descended from medieval war horses, for example, Perchersons (French heavyweights), Brabansons (Belgian heavyweights), Shires (English heavyweights).

I did not understand the meaning of rewriting my answer to you, only with clarifications

Quote: MG42

According to one version, not all Teutons fell through, but a small detachment, which draped flew into the melting ice.

Where is that written?

1. Your second question of this kind is already, I didn’t notice any proofs from you.
2. This is written in the book, and since we have 12 nights and similar books at about half a thousand, then run, wake everyone up, rummage in books to find the right author and place, and then I will not find it on the net, sorry I won't ... "Kudruna" was enough for me (and I remembered that from memory, since I had already had such a dispute)
3. So take my word for it, especially since the post said "According to one of the versions", and the version is not a fact) I have to prove it with foam)

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Orty

but it seems to me that the chain mail was much better both in weight and mobility and compactness and even in ventilation !!

Chain mail is somewhat heavier than lamellar (kuyach) armor, but, oddly enough, it provided better mobility. The area of ​​the protected surfaces of the chain mail is much larger than that of the Japanese-type lamellars. There is little ventilation under the chain mail - this is already from personal experience, although "my" copy was a little narrow for me.

[Corneli]

Quote: Orty

Advertising is a good thing, but it seems to me that the chain mail was much better both in weight and mobility and compactness and even in ventilation !! As for swimming, this is certainly strong and I would give dearly that would take a look at it !!!

By the way, I won’t say anything about the Japanese, but the training of knights (pages) included swimming in the ARMOR. There are a lot of rivers in Europe and the crossing through them was often practiced with a fight.
P.S. We won’t joke about Lake Peipsi) I already wrote it off)

[MG42]

Quote: Corneli

training of knights (pages) included swimming in the ARMOR. There are a lot of rivers in Europe and the crossing through them was often practiced with a fight.

And can you find out the source of such information?

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

And you can find out the source of such information.

Not Internet ... I read a lot where in books ... from that sho I remember:
"The king of the Zeelands Herwig could not land on the ground,
Then he jumped into the sea and began to search ford.
Standing in the water up to the throat
He has such courage in the name of serving a lady.
868The enemies wanted to drown him in the abyss,
But they only managed to split the spears
Oh strong shell. Herwig rushed to land
And there in battle with the enemies! paid for many friends.
869Where Hetel boldly advanced with the squad,
Water turned red from the blood of those who fell.
And the current of the bloody wave spread in the sea wider,
Than any spear in the world could throw a spear.
870Heroes were hard. There were so many of them sinking
That would be enough for the whole country.
They were pardoned by wounds and not swords smashed, -
What needs, what kind of grave is not equal! "
I almost checked myself while I found it in Kudrun (13th century)
Well, you can also look at the picture of the battle of Orsha (16th century) ... there, unhurried uncles across the Dnieper on horseback stick http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/66/Battle_of_Orsha_%281514-09-08% 29.j
pg

[MG42]

In this picture, knights in armor wade forwards drawn = the river is too small, when sailing with a horse you need to at least get off and swim beside it, in the armor of a European knight this is not real ...

[MG42]

All these poets, artists love to embellish the picture, how to cross the Dnieper in such a way sitting on a horse in armor, I can not even imagine and here it is painted by a small river ..

On the night of September 8, 1514, the thirty-five thousandth army of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania led across the Dnieper opposite Orsha floating bridges on barrels and crossed to the left bank. The Lithuanian army consisted of Lithuanian, Belorussian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Tatar, Polish, Hungarian and German troops. This united army was commanded by the Volyn prince Konstantin of Ostrog.

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

On the night of September 8, 1514, the thirty-five thousandth army of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania led across the Dnieper opposite Orsha floating bridges on barrels and crossed to the left bank. The Lithuanian army consisted of Lithuanian, Belorussian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Tatar, Polish, Hungarian and German troops. This united army was commanded by the Volyn prince Konstantin of Ostrog.

Or it is possible this way: "On the night of September 8, the Lithuanian cavalry crossed the Dnieper and covered the laying of bridges for infantry and field artillery." While "the Polish-Lithuanian troops left on this bank (the Dnieper) at the entrance to the ford a number of lightly armed soldiers, who pranced and let the Muscovites examine themselves, giving them the impression of the presence of an army, while the king's army did not remain in place"

Quote: MG42

All these poets, artists love to embellish the picture, how to cross the Dnieper in such a way sitting on a horse in armor, I can not even imagine and here it is painted by a small river ..

It is clear that in such miniatures (pictures) everything is very schematic (especially the scale), therefore they are considered in conjunction with other evidence:
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0/47/840/47840400_mortagne.jpg
Siege by the French of Mortange Castle on the Gironde, near Bordeaux

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

In this picture, knights in armor wade forwards drawn = the river is too small, when sailing with a horse you need to at least get off and swim beside it, in the armor of a European knight this is not real

Without a clue of what is real and what is not (did you personally swim in chain mail or armor?). At one time, it was believed that a knight in general on a horse could only be raised by a crane, and if he matched, he would not get up himself. And what about the pictures and facts then. a). this is DNEPR, it is not very narrow (even in the upper reaches). b) lightly armed Polish cavalry is crossing above the Lithuanian knights, look at the difference in landing. c.) This is a medieval picture and the image on it is quite schematic (for example, I do not believe that there was such a crowd of knights in full maximilians and armored horses) d) In documentary sources it is described that the light cavalry of the Poles made swoops at the ford, and the Lithuanians crossed into "in another place" (and it was hardly a ford), unexpected for the Russians ...
P.S. Why komenty only about the picture? Poem as proof, as I understand it, come down?)

[MG42]

Quote: Corneli

Without a clue what is real and what is not (did you personally swim in chain mail or armor?)

I do not, it makes sense to drown like an ax to prove a theory? Yes, even the matter is not in armor, but the fact that getting off a horse with such a swimming will have to be unambiguous, even in family shorts alone.

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

Yes, even the matter is not in armor, but the fact that getting off a horse with such a swimming will have to be unambiguous, even in family shorts alone.

I don’t argue with you here ... But the initial argument did not concern the painting and horseback riding, but simply swimming in European armor. By the way, you stated above that samurai in plate armor (12 kg) could swim. Why then can knights in chain mail (weight from 15 to 20) not be able to do this? Chain mail, movement constrains much less than any full armor, and a little more weight in it ...

[MG42]

Quote: Corneli

I don’t argue with you here ... But the initial argument did not concern the painting and horseback riding, but simply swimming in European armor. By the way, you stated above that samurai in plate armor (12 kg) could swim. Why then can knights in chain mail (weight from 15 to 20) not be able to do this?

The knights were in plate armor, cuirass, shoulders, bracers, greaves, gulfiki + helmet = a total of at least 25 kg. + tormented by vague doubts + they still wore chain mail that was only 33 kg., plus a knight’s sword + spear, obviously heavier than the Japanese katana and wakizashi, or he, a European knight, having crossed the river in armor alone had to take away the weapon from the enemy, yes plus drop-shaped shield? Not far away he will not sail away ..

[Corneli]

Quote: MG42

The knights were in plate armor, cuirass, shoulders, bracers, greaves, gulfiki + helmet = a total of at least 25 kg. + tormented by vague doubts + they still wore chain mail that was only 33 kg., plus a knight’s sword + spear, obviously heavier than the Japanese katana and wakizashi, or he, a European knight, having crossed the river in armor alone had to take away the weapon from the enemy, yes plus drop-shaped shield? Not far away he will not sail away ..

Che then you hung on the poor knight of all ... horror is simple)
Knights in different periods of time dragged different armor. If conditionally,
then:
1. 10th century - 12th century - hauberk, chain mail, drop-shaped shields, Norman helmets (a little later deaf potted) ... well, they could attach a brigantine on top.
2. 12-14th century - chain mail elements are gradually being replaced by all-metal ones, cuirasses, shoulders, greaves and bracers are appearing, top helms are gradually being replaced by more advanced (all kinds of salads and other) shields are becoming smaller, mainly of a triangular shape
3. 15-16th century - the dawn of "full" armor, Milin, Gothic and Maxemilian armor appear. No chain mail, deaf helmets with a movable visor, no shields (maximum tarch, which is not even held with a hand)
Periods, dating and other details, of course, are approximate, laziness is written in detail)
In the picture, the heavy horsemen are evidently in Maximillian armor (either Milan, but definitely not Gothic). But their approximate number and chained horses are just rubbish. Physically there couldn’t be such a crowd of them, all the more Polish-Lithuanian heavy cavalry, as a rule, was lighter than Western European.
So your list is incorrect, if plate armor, then no chain mail and teardrop-shaped shields, they simply are not needed. Even in mixed armor, the shield would be small triangular. Also did not understand what for him a spear? To drag a 3-meter bandura which is used only in ramming (as I understand it, the knight does not have horses? Otherwise the shield and sword and spear would be on it at least). In general, there you need to figure out particulars and details, otherwise everything in general comes out too confusing

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: MG42

yes plus a knight's sword + spear, obviously heavier than Japanese katana and wakizashi

I can’t say for the spear, which, by the way, was the main type of weapon for the samurai (Yari urine), but the swords weighed about the same, and some European swords were even lighter than the katana, for example, cavalry spat weighed from 0,8 kg, bastard, early espada - 1,0 - 1,4 kg, while the katana weighed from 1,1 to 1,5 kg.

[Setrac]

Quote: Corneli

P.S. Why komenty only about the picture? Poem as proof, as I understand it, come down?)

Neither a poem nor a picture can be used as proof, and there is nothing to say about the Scandinavian sagas, the Scandinavians are louder than fishermen "BOOT WITH SUCH EYE".

[old man54]

Quote: MG42

The Japanese military suit, which had many small holes, made it possible for the soldier's body to breathe freely, which is very important in a hot and humid Japanese climate.

You "+"! The first person I met was in the discussion of this topic on the thread! :)

[MG42]

Thank you colleague, though I didn’t understand one word in your post, it’s obvious a typo of the word “adequate”, but I made someone else's minus equal with its plus. Particularly "pleased" here are the statements of some about the mass production of katanas
Samurai armor was only among the samurai and not servants and peasants ..
Photo of a samurai and his servants.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: MG42

Photo of a samurai and his servants

In the photo of 1890, the Japanese are in suits of the ashigaru and the commander of the ashigaru (center).

Quote: MG42

Particularly "pleased" here are the statements of some about the mass production of katanas

Tell the doctor who the villain is! (c) Mr. Trelawney, R.L. Stevenson.

Quote: MG42

Samurai armor was only among the samurai and not servants and peasants ..

The samurai had the armor of the samurai, the servants and peasants drafted into the ashigaru had the ashigaru armor, and it was not always easy to distinguish the samurai from the asigaru (commander) in armor.

[MG42]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Tell the doctor that this scoundrel! (c) Mr. Trelawney, R.L. Stevenson.

You, Trelawney!

Quote: Rakti-Kali

In the photo of 1890, the Japanese in costumes of the ashigaru and the commander of the ashigaru

Ashigaru is not a samurai infantry armed with a yari "spear", a man in the center of a samurai, only he could be with a katana and wakizashi.

Quote: Rakti-Kali

The samurai had the armor of the samurai, the servants and peasants drafted into the ashigaru had the ashigaru armor, and it was not always easy to distinguish the samurai from the asigaru (commander) in armor.

come on, a lot of differences, even in weapons and armor .. each infantry has its own flags, etc.
<yawning> went to bed ..

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: MG42

You, Trelawney!

Quote: MG42

a man in the center of a samurai, only he could be with katana and wakizashi.

These two questions can be combined with one answer. Back in the Azuchi-Momoyama period, ashigaru received the status of "junior samurai" and the right to wear wakizashi, by the sengoku jidai period they already had the right to wear a katana, and in general, yes, but there was a nuance - if armor for ashigaru was bought by a person calling them to serve (samurai or daimyo), the ashigaru swords had to buy themselves. But due to the low income, the "swift" could not afford to buy a high-quality sword (and they wanted to get it sooo much, because it made it look like a samurai) - hence the surge in katana production at the end of momoyama - the beginning of sengoku jidai, naturally the quality of this consumer goods was slightly lower skirting boards, which, however, does not negate the fact that they were exactly katana.
So the ashigaru, as we see, had the right to wear it. Now, regarding the armor — the commanders of ashigaru and taisho-asigaru (asigaru generals) —they often received the armor as a gift from the samurai, generals, and rulers (daimyo), and often it was the old armor of these same samurai, generals, etc. In addition, the EMNIP had no clear rules dividing the armor into samurai and asigara and often the asigaru richer in high-quality heavy armor and looked like samurai, and the samurai more victoriously acquired simple armor cheaper and looked like an ashigaru.

Quote: MG42

a lot of differences, even in weapons and armor .. each infantry has its own flags, etc.

Oh, I accidentally answered this question above.

[old man54]

Quote: MG42

obviously a typo of the word "adequate",

Thank you for correctly understanding me, or rather my typos :)) I wanted to write a lot here, hurry up, do not check yourself, there is little time, I was distracted yet (I make excuses).

[Mikhail3]

Have met. Mikado contained a bodyguard detachment ... from Siberian Cossacks. What do you think they are there, on their cramped islands leavened? What prevented us from crossing a not so great distance? Here the checker also interfered. More precisely, a comparison of the combat properties of both checkers with a katana and a samurai with a Cossack ...
But why the author combined these types of weapons in one article - I did not understand this. Katana is a tool for a strictly defined type of fencing. Entirely and completely artificial, that is, it cannot compete with any other kind of cold steel of that era. A saber, a sword or not bring the rapier god instantly turn the poor owner of a katana into a clumsy, funny and completely harmless naive.
While fencing with a saber is completely impossible, even a figure eight is not very convenient for doing with it. The terrible weapon of the horse cabin is not intended to be fenced, but to kill, immediately and without options. You simply won’t hold a checker with a katana; Well, maybe what a great master ... though Miyamoto Musashi, by the way, didn’t use a katana! I understood the matter ...

[Jin]

Quote: Mikhail3

You simply won’t hold a checker with a katana; Well maybe what a great master

You, dear, as I see, in questions of fencing katana complete ignoramus! Why talk about this? The technique of Japanese and European fencing is fundamentally different. If, purely hypothetically, such a duel would take place, I personally bet on a samurai.

[Mikhail3]

When the Europeans hacked Japan, they had quite enough practice in this matter for some time. That is, they cut the poor as they wanted, the British had a lot of fun ... In fencing, I managed to learn only one truth. The winner leaves the battlefield. The loser lies and cools. I have not intensified any other techniques.
To the commentator below. I can wave with a crowbar to the mood, sometimes it comes out beautifully ... Well done girl, but you won’t use it for battle. Hit - killed! Or they killed you. A checker can do nothing else.

[Pinochet000]

Quote: Mikhail3

While fencing with a saber is completely impossible, even a figure eight is not very convenient for doing with it.

[Alexander D.]

God forbid, by chance, ask such a girl to smoke in the evening - you can row in full))))

[Jin]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

So completely useless toothpicks.
But Japanese bows - so this is all a laugh!

You are not entirely right about bamboo (by the way, a very durable shrub) and so on. When fencing, they tried to hit areas of the body, arms and legs unprotected by armor. Effectiveness largely depended on the skill of the katana wearer, and not on the blade itself. Of course, if the armor developing in Japan at that time followed in the European footsteps, the katana might not have appeared as a weapon. Let's just say that the European sword is not able to cut through plate armor, only pierce, and even then not always. And the katana is a cutting-cutting weapon. Struck in joints or puncture. Therefore, the "European" sword evolved from a broad, heavy chopping clique with a blunt point to swords with a narrow edge and a sharp point ... then into a sword. fencing tactics also changed. It appeared, in fact, with the advent of plate armor. In the early Middle Ages, stupidly cut ...

[kavad]

You obviously don't know what naginata, yari and bisento are.

[Mikhail3]

I warmly recommend learning the technique of using tetsubo. This thing is really effective!

[old man54]

Quote: We refund_SSSR

They would not try to oppose anything to the Maltese latnik in full armor with a halberd and not one, but a tight formation, and even with horse detachments.
Or chain mail of Russian knights and cavalry .. And on the left hand sews! In the right flail or slander - and goodbye samurai in paper armor ...

laughed about the Soul! :) Yes, they would easily have resisted, especially the Maltese and European sedentary idol, chained in iron! You easily dodged his slow and heavy sword, walked in from behind / from the side, hit him with his leg, he fell to the ground, and those "knights" themselves could stand up with failed work, and would have stabbed him between the armor. well, or a cyst of hands would cut off mu. while he is setting up and preparing for a strike. That's all for a short time. All this bravado is on the branch from ignorance of the true capabilities of the samurai and their fighting technique.
And the armor of samurai from specially made leather of bulls and buffaloes will probably be more effective for our calculators, and there’s nothing to say against arrows! And under the blow you can not substitute!

[Fang]

I read all this, laughed !!! In real life, a samurai against a armored knight or a Russian knight with a growth shield and one-handed will not survive for 1 minute. No matter how much he jumps around. I say this because I myself own both battle techniques and have repeatedly participated in such battles. Further, regarding drafts and katana, also from real combat experience - it all depends on the skill of the fighters, but still it’s easier to give the enemy katana, since fighting with a saber or saber requires a lot of maneuver and a lot of energy. If the level of opponents is the same, then the katana will win !!! The owner of the checker will be exhausted earlier just because of maneuvering. The speed of hitting a katana is much higher than that of a checker due to the two-handed operation, so a fighter with a checker will have to really give everything in order to survive. A little movement is enough for the master of a katana to win - a blow to a hand or a hand, and it’s just really, the speed of two hands allows.

[Joffrey]

But what about the Don Cossacks heaped on the samurai in 1905? Just a checker is better for horse fighting applicable.

[Joffrey]

But what about the Don Cossacks heaped on the samurai in 1905, just a checker for horse fighting. (The sablist is doing the katancer)

[cth; fyn]

Well, it should be remembered that during the feudal wars, katans were printed in bundles and this was reflected in their quality, but amazing swords have survived to this day, but they were all created during the quiet periods of the civil wars in Japan. From this it follows that the quality of the katana depends on the period of its creation, if there was time to tinker with forging a masterpiece, then a miracle was obtained, and if the time was running out, it turned out to be a cleaver.

[Jin]

Quote: cth; fyn

katanas were printed in bundles and this reflected on their quality

Do not carry nonsense !!! They were forged by hand! - for ignorance of the topic.

Quote: cth; fyn

and if the deadlines were running out, it turned out to be a cleaver

if the deadlines were running out, nothing worked! Can you imagine this process? This is not stamping on the conveyor ... kapets damn

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Do not carry nonsense !!! They were forged by hand! - for ignorance of the topic.

And you mean in the subject? During the period of the warring provinces, these same katanas were "printed" in packs, albeit by hand. The quality was slightly more than below the baseboard. Masterpieces were made over the years and cost "like a locomotive." But when you need to arm tens of thousands of fighters, it’s not up to masterpieces.
By the way, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, katanas, including stamping, were made.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

And you mean in the subject? During the period of the warring provinces, these same katanas were "printed" in packs, albeit by hand. The quality was slightly more than below the baseboard. Masterpieces were made over the years and cost "like a locomotive." But when you need to arm tens of thousands of fighters, it’s not up to masterpieces.
By the way, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, katanas, including stamping, were made.

"These same katana" were not such a massive weapon and they were not armed with tens of thousands! Who will arm all the mob with such a complex weapon ??? The katanas were of different quality, but rather due to the skill level! They are still made by stamping, but these are souvenirs! There are "good" Spanish replicas for only 7000-10000 tr. Note that such a highly carbon and sharpened "souvenir" can be killed very easily. But this is not a katana !!! There are craftsmen in Russia, too, who make blades by forging, according to old technologies, such swords are already much more expensive. By the way, for many years doing this, using high-quality equipment and materials, they were far from immediately able to make swords that have the properties of the originals!

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

"These same katana" were not such a massive weapon and they were not armed with tens of thousands!

Late 16th - early 17th century, the Momoyama period, ashigaru began to be considered a kind of "junior samurai" and had the right to wear first wakidzashi, then katana, then two swords at once. But ... they had to buy swords at their own expense. And they bought it because they wanted to emphasize their status. But it was difficult even for a wealthy samurai to gather up for a normal katana. Hence tens of thousands of katana, which both bent and broke.
So for reference - sometimes armies were assembled in which there were several tens of thousands of ashigaru and samurai.
This ... You would have learned the story of the "political economy" of medieval Japan before being disgraced.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

So for reference - sometimes armies were assembled in which there were several tens of thousands of ashigaru and samurai.
This ... You would have learned the story of the "political economy" of medieval Japan before being disgraced.

Did you study it in school books? Here is a simple example. In addition to compliance with status, the life of its owner depended on katana! If someone bought a cheap fake to maintain status, it is his own business. What was produced and bent cannot be considered katana at all! Due to the composition and properties of the blade, a katana can only break, and not bend! Let's not weave fakes here and call them katana! this is a universal practice. In Europe, in addition to high-quality blades, it was full and disgusting quality.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Did you study it in school books?

Not only. Although in the school textbook of Japanese high school this period is revealed in some places better than in Russian textbooks for universities.

Quote: Jin

In addition to compliance with status, the life of its owner depended on katana!

Uguuu ... somewhere from the beginning of the XIX century ... Before that, they preferred to trust their life to more serious things, well, or more practical. From wakizashi, arrows and yari, the samurai died much more than from the katana.

Quote: Jin

What was produced and bent cannot be considered katana at all! Due to the composition and properties of the blade, a katana can only break, and not bend!

Your statement is not true. As I already wrote, the raw materials for the katana were mediocre and the blades were quite "soft", despite all the tricks of the craftsmen. If, for example, to parry a chopping blow of a katana with a bastard, the blade into the blade of the katana will most likely bend, the cutting edge may crack, and the half-handed handle will get off as chipped as possible.

Quote: Jin

Let's not weave fakes here and call them katana!

Well, after all, the Japanese themselves called them Katana, from the XNUMXth century, why can’t we?

Quote: Jin

In Europe, in addition to high-quality blades, it was full and disgusting quality.

Nobody argues with this either. I remember there was a bike that historians could not understand for a long time why in some eda a certain Viking was described who "constantly stepped on his sword after being hit, while swearing terribly," thought the berserker, until the metallurgists explained that he straightened the sword bent after the blow.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

From wakizashi, arrows and yari, the samurai died much more than from the katana.

Well, this is already too much ... I can’t continue a dialogue with you! Do you know what wakizashi is? Extremely commendable! And why did he die more from him? In school textbooks, medieval Japanese statistics were printed? He studied at the Union, I do not remember ...

[Rakti-kali]

Dear Jin, you are definitely making the mistake of thinking the other person is dumber than yourself. And, of course, I know what a "stuck in the side" is, and who had the right to wear it and what the rules of wearing it were stipulated by etiquette.

Quote: Jin

And why did he die more from him?

Trite because it was distributed much wider. By the way, why aren't you asking about yari and yumi? Or do not know what it is?

Quote: Jin

In school textbooks, medieval Japanese statistics were printed?

You know, I even envy you a little, because you, apparently, only have this magical time when a person is dealing with school books.

Quote: Jin

He studied at the Union, I do not remember ...

Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it was "under the Union" or "studied".

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

By the way, why aren't you asking about yari and yumi? Or do not know what it is?

I don’t know what it is, but I know what a katana is, I don’t pretend to be a doctor of historical sciences and this is not about "yari and yumi" ...

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Dear Jin, you are definitely making the mistake of thinking the other person is stupider than yourself. And, of course, I know what "stick in the side" is,

Dear Rakti-Kali. What makes you think that I think so? Not "stuck in the side", but stuck in from the side (something stuck in the side), don't think that the wakizashi was stuck in someone's side), this is another matter.

Quote: Rakti-Kali

You know, I even envy you a little, because you, apparently, only have this magical time when a person is dealing with school books.

Envy, a bad trait. I understood the humor, flat as in Petrosyan. With textbooks I parted in the glorious 96th ... good luck and creative success to you! And do not forget to answer the question below!

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

And do not forget to answer the question below!

When it came to war: Samurai - urine yari, and until the end of the XNUMXth century - yumi, asigaru - nagae yari, from the second half of the XNUMXth century tepe. In fact, in a field battle, the katana was an auxiliary weapon.

Quote: Jin

I don’t know what it is, but I know what a katana is, I don’t pretend to be a doctor of historical sciences and this is not about "yari and yumi" ...

But in vain. If they knew, they would not ask unnecessary questions.

Quote: Jin

Not "stuck in the side", but stuck in from the side (something stuck in the side), don't think that the wakizashi was stuck in someone's side), this is another matter.

What an owl about a stump, what about an owl.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

What an owl about a stump, what about an owl.

Yes, well no, let me disagree. One and the same, it’s not the same. The semantic load, however, is different. Well, yes ftg with us, drove through.

Quote: Rakti-Kali

But in vain. If they knew, they would not ask unnecessary questions.

Look who's Talking. We are discussing the katana and the checker, are you trying to get into the wild? Checker, what is the main weapon? Or an auxiliary one? And how to understand "auxiliary"? Melee weapons, no "support". The heavy knightly cavalry, for example, had the "main" weapon, beside himself, of course: firstly, the horse itself, in armor, and secondly, a spear. The rest was used according to the situation: axes, clubs, swords, etc.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

We are discussing a katana and a saber. Why the hell are you climbing into the wilds?

It is necessary, within the framework of discussion. You yourself asked to clarify this issue, but I just heeded the request.

Quote: Jin

And how to understand "auxiliary"?

Until the sixteenth century, a katana in a dash was a brush. when tepe became widespread and the yumi but the samurai became smaller, the gusoku became easier (well, as in Europe), and the katana in the daisa became a daito, replacing the tachi. But even then, the main tactics of the field battle were shelling from yumi and tepe and hitting the yari. Katana, for a samurai, became a model of civilian and status weapons rather, and was used more often in duels than on the battlefield. Dying from a katana for a samurai was much less likely than from wakizashi, since the latter was more common and was always at hand, unlike katana.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Uguuu ... somewhere from the beginning of the XIX century ... Before that, they preferred to trust their life to more serious things, well, or more practical.

How?

[Oldréd]

Alas, your opponent is right. The bulk of any army is a different rabble: peasant militia, mercenaries, military servants, impoverished nobles, etc. who were either massively armed with overlords simple and cheap weapons, or they themselves bought what they could. And Japan is no exception, but on the contrary - the standard! The metal there was very expensive. The heaviest and most durable armor by European standards is light. 3/4 of their troops had at best a conical hat and a bamboo bib, otherwise they went into battle in a loincloth (by the way, this explains the popularity of swords and the absence of armor-piercing weapons like axes, clubs, klevets). Same thing with swords. Consumer goods then knew how to drive no worse than now, and a bad blade is better than none. You can kill them too. Of course, such swords did not represent values ​​and they were not kept as a relic.

[Mikhail3]

Well? Just the same with old technology? That is, seven years to keep forging in the swamp? Sharpen the year? To get the exit ... The war did not beat all the mugs, as my grandmother said ...

[Jin]

Quote: Mikhail3

That is, seven years to keep forging in the swamp? Sharpen the year?

What are you talking about? Straight on old technology, yes. What makes you so confused? And about the mugs explain, this is about whom?

[bazilio]

Quote: Orty

Well, in the sense, the shape of the blade is really very successful, but since there was no steel alloying technology in Japan, and the extracted iron was of very poor quality, the swords turned out to be so-so.

The quality of steel was poor, but the blacksmiths twisted out. they made a square bag of ore, heated it, made a longitudinal cut and folded in half. then flattened the folded bag with a hammer. then they again heated, made a transverse cut, folded, flattened and so on several dozen times, while gradually increasing the number of cuts. This process resembled a kneading dough, thus it was possible to achieve an adequate hardness of steel. In addition, the blades were layered - as a rule, the core and blade were made of hardened solid steel, the core was lined with mild steel strips on both sides. there were a lot of options. And katanas were made for a very long time; one polishing of the blade took 2-3 months.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: bazilio

and so several dozen times

The word "tens" is superfluous here. Several times the "envelope" was folded - 10 times to fold it already 1024 layers. Neither metallurgy nor history of such "katana" is known.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Neither metallurgy nor history of such "katana" is known.

Colleague, do not write nonsense, because you have the Internet at hand! Would you read something, at least a little, before discussing ...

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Colleague, do not write nonsense, because you have the Internet at hand! Would you read something, at least a little, before discussing ...

From des ka ... So how many layers were usually in a katana, please, enlighten me?

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Quote: Jin

Colleague, do not write nonsense, because you have the Internet at hand! Would you read something, at least a little, before discussing ...

From des ka ... So how many layers were usually in a katana, please, enlighten me?

I quote, at least this:
The production of katana consists of many stages and can last up to several months. At the beginning, the pieces of steel of the tamahagane variety are stacked together, poured with a clay solution and sprinkled with ash. This is necessary to remove from the metal slag, which during the melting process leaves it and is absorbed by clay and ash. After that, the pieces of steel were heated to allow them to connect with each other. Then the resulting block is forged with a hammer: it is flattened and folded, then flattened again and folded again - and so the number of layers is doubled (with 10 folding 1024 layers, with 20 - 1048576) Thus, the carbon is distributed evenly in the workpiece, so the hardness of the blade in each The plot will be the same. Further, in the tamahagane block, it is required to add softer steel so that the sword does not break under high dynamic loads.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

At the beginning, the pieces of steel of the tamahagane variety are stacked together, poured with a clay solution and sprinkled with ash. This is necessary to remove from the metal slag, which during the melting process leaves it and is absorbed by clay and ash. After that, the pieces of steel were heated to allow them to connect with each other. Then the resulting block is forged with a hammer: it is flattened and folded, then flattened again and folded again - and so the number of layers is doubled (with 10 folding 1024 layers, with 20 - 1048576) Thus, the carbon is distributed evenly in the workpiece, so the hardness of the blade in each The plot will be the same.

Dear interlocutor, one should start with the fact that tamahagane is essentially scorching iron, obtained from ferruginous sands in a tartar cheese-blowing furnace, with a carbon content of 0,8 to 1,2%, which is even slightly less than in Russian "swamp" iron and significantly less than in iron obtained from the deposits of medieval Western Europe. And given the fact that the Tatara furnace gives a maximum temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius and there was a shortage of high-quality fuel in Japan, the tamahagane wessma is contaminated with sulfur and phosphorus, and alloying additives in iron are found only by chance due to the high (higher than in Tatara) melting temperature these.
Alkali during remelting (those same clay and ash) of course reduced the amount of impurities, but not dramatically.
As for the conversion - the very same "flatten and fold it, then flatten it and fold it again", then if you know a katana with more than 1000 layers, please, be so kind and share this vital knowledge.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Dear interlocutor, you should start with the fact that tamahagane, this is essentially a critical iron, obtained from ferrous sands in the raw material furnace of the Tatars, with a carbon content of from 0,8 to 1,2%,

Dear interlocutor, do you argue in order to argue? Do not load me with chemical-physical processes occurring with metal. We are not in defense of a degree in the properties of metals ... Just accept the historical fact. Not funny already. You do not argue with me, but with history and facts.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Do not load me with chemical-physical processes occurring with metal. We are not in defense of a degree in the properties of metals ... Just accept the historical fact.

That is, objective reality is this extra verbiage? Well, continue to believe in fairy tales.
Z. S. And now a little revenge - In fact, Santa Claus does not exist.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Z. S. And now a little revenge - In fact, Santa Claus does not exist.

Are you a little avenger? Revenge for what? What is Santa Claus? Is objective reality your nonsense in the comments? Objective for whom? You have not convinced me in more than one post ... nonsense, for the most part, based on speculation.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

delirium, for the most part, based on speculation.

Again, I'm just happy that you understand the shortcomings of your posts.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Again, I'm just happy that you understand the shortcomings of your posts.

ABOUT! Humor again! This format of humor suits you this way, keep it up ! I appreciate your humor and am glad that you are so happy. One thing saddens: You understand that I understand about some of the shortcomings of my posts! Are you a telepath or ... or what?

There are flaws, but not in the way in which you set out.
Humor and laughter are wonderful, to a reasonable extent. If borscht, then pulls on the clowning IMHO.

[Setrac]

Quote: Jin

delirium, for the most part, based on speculation.

Actually, not on speculation, but on scientific facts, conjecture is the story that you believe in, tell us about the thousand-year-old history of Japan, we will laugh together.

[Jin]

Quote: Orty

and the mined iron was of very poor quality, then the swords turned out so-so

This is not true, I mean the quality of the swords obtained. "Iron" was smelted from sotetsu, an iron-containing sand, which was smelted in a specially built furnace. Forging took place by multiple additions of steel strips, which made the blade multi-layered. The katana has a very strong high carbon cutting edge and a "soft" blade back. That combines resistance to fur impact, but at the same time and elasticity, which prevents excessive fragility inherent in hardened steel. When the edge of the blade is hardened under the influence of cold water, i.e. low temperature and a characteristic "bending" of the blade occurred, and on it itself, along the hardening line, a pattern, unique for each sword, appeared, which is called a ham (very beautiful in my opinion). Then the swords were polished by hand for a long time, the surface was brought to the ideal. It is not only beautiful, but also has practical foundations. The absence of small irregularities and defects, avoids the development of corrosion and microcracks. There is a lot to tell about the katana, but I will say one thing - you are deceived if they say that the swords were bad !!! Yes, the katana, like absolutely any weapon, had a flaw. The blade, due to its structure and properties, was vulnerable to blows from the side, which could lead to its breakage. By the way, the well-known nunchucks (I hope I wrote correctly) were invented, not by the Japanese, though, just as a weapon for fighting a katana ... Comparing a saber and a katana, in my opinion, is hardly correct at all. Completely different application technique. Katana, it is more correct to call it not a sword, but a saber, because of the technique of fencing and striking, as well as the type of the blade itself.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

This is not true, I mean the quality of the swords obtained. "Iron" was smelted from sotetsu, an iron-containing sand, which was smelted in a specially built furnace. Forging took place by multiple additions of steel strips, which made the blade multi-layered. The katana has a very strong high carbon cutting edge and a "soft" blade back.

The trouble was that the raw materials mined in Japan were of very low quality, and the corresponding fuel, in order to saturate the iron with carbon, was acutely deficient, therefore, almost all Japanese swords that have come down to us and have the status of "sword-kladenets" were made in 18 19 centuries from imported (mainly Korean) raw materials. By the way, the same cutting hammer was often made separately and then welded into the "envelope" during the forging process.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

us and those with the status of "sword-kladenets" were made in the 18-19 centuries from imported (mainly Korean) raw materials. By the way, the same cutting hammer was often made separately and then welded into the "envelope" during the forging process.

You are not a topic at all, dear. Sorry!

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

You are not a topic at all, dear. Sorry!

Is that all you can do? Just "make sounds" without filling them with meaning? You don't know how to explain your point of view to the interlocutor or point out his mistake, right?

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Is that all you can do? Just "make sounds" without filling them with meaning? You don't know how to explain your point of view to the interlocutor or point out his mistake, right?

Do not take to heart, I did not want to offend. On your question, a lot has been written in my other posts on this thread.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Do not take to heart, I did not want to offend. On your question, a lot has been written in my other posts on this thread.

In turn, I apologize for the excessive harshness of my answer to you.

[Oldréd]

It is what it is. Japanese have few quality swords older than 3-4 centuries, even considering how carefully they are stored, and this suggests that in earlier times valuable blades were not mass produced

[revnagan]

Quote: Jin

By the way, the well-known nunchucks (I hope I wrote it correctly) were invented by non-Japanese truth, just like a weapon to combat katana ...

Nuntyaku against katana is effective only in Bruce Lee's film !!! In reality, nunchyaku against katana has no chance. The prototype of nuntyaku (nunchaku) - a flail for threshing rice, was first used as a weapon in Okinawa, whose inhabitants are under threat of mortal the execution was forbidden to own "real" weapons. So they (the inhabitants of Okinawa) had to get out - they came up with Okinawa-te, where the main emphasis was on breaking solid objects with hands and feet (in the long term, elements of samurai armor), using the flail as a sectional weapon In theory, given a sudden use, nuntyaku had an ephemeral chance ... Katana was originally a murder weapon. And in the hands of a samurai it was a death sentence to the owner of a nuntyaku (again, the film with Bruce Lee is fictional).

[Jin]

Quote: revnagan

They made me laugh !!! Nuntyaku against katana is effective only in the Bruce Lee film !!!

Nothing funny! If you carefully read it, I wrote that a strong blow to the side of the blade can break it. I'm not writing about a full-fledged fight, this is complete nonsense of course) And not in favor of the owner of the nunchak ...

[Beck]

Quote: Jin

Nothing funny! If you carefully read it, I wrote that a strong blow to the side of the blade can break it.

Nothing funny squared. Nunchucks as well as battle knives on chains have one property which cannot be found not on a saber, not on a checker, nor on a sword, nor on a katana. They can circumvent the protection of these stabbing tools.

Brief and undoubtedly happening. When struck with a brush or nunchak, the protector substitutes the sword. A chain of a cyst or a chain joint of a nunchak hits the sword. This is enough to stop another sword. But the beater and the distant part of the nunchak, according to the laws of physics, continue to move, even receiving additional energy. And it beat the second part of the nunchak and strike behind the line of the protective sword. For example, a blow from above with a brush bypasses the protective line of the sword and still hits the head. This is the advantage of articulated weapons. And with a certain training, you can tear the sword out of the hands of the defender when it beats on a chain or the highest part of the nunchak is wrapped around the sword. So, the thing is in the experience and training of both.

[Jin]

Quote: Beck

Nothing funny squared. Nunchucks as well as battle knives on chains have one property which cannot be found not on a saber, not on a checker, nor on a sword, nor on a katana. They can circumvent the protection of these stabbing tools.

Yes, colleague, you +

[revnagan]

Quote: Beck

Nothing funny squared. Nunchucks as well as battle knives on chains have one property which cannot be found not on a saber, not on a checker, nor on a sword, nor on a katana. They can circumvent the protection of these stabbing tools.

It is true that a flexible sectional weapon of shock-crushing action is used in this way. This is how simple peasants used flails in the Hussite wars, in the people's liberation wars against the Poles in Ukraine, during the uprising of Stepan Razin. There is a small "but" here. The weight and dimensions of the nuntyaku cannot be compared with the flail of Europeans. compact, lightweight and fairly short. The owner of the katana is undoubtedly a person skilled in martial arts, simply will not let the enemy with such a "weapon" as a nuntyaku (we do not consider a brush and a beater). The owner of a katana is a peasant, a commoner, even if he owns his own weapons masterly. A professional warrior, a nobleman. An example of confrontation is the massacre that Oda Nobunaga staged in 1581. The enemy residents of the province of Iga, who outnumbered him by 20 times, were destroyed. Why? The professional soldiers were mainly opposed by peasants. armed with items that can be used as weapons-nuntiaku, tonfa and other scythe-pitchfork.The only chance of owners of such weapons is surprise In an open battle against trained samurai armed with real weapons, they had no chance. Here, by the way, the problem of confrontation between folk and elite cultures looms, but this is not about that. By the way, the enemy behind a shield, or closing with a sword can be hit well with a boomerang

[Jin]

Quote: revnagan

In an open battle against trained samurai armed with real weapons, they had no chance.

Yes, I also wrote about this. But the point was a little different. And you confirmed it, thanks.

Quote: revnagan

It is true that flexible sectional weapons of shock-crushing action are used in this way.

But not all, unfortunately, starting to argue, remember where the argument began.

[kavad]

At least someone who knows there.

[Orty]

Iron containing sand which produced more or less decent quality of steel, if I am not mistaken, was mined only on one of the Japanese islands and did not cover the needs of all samurai. The bulk of the swords of that time was not made of him, so the quality is true. Then, when they began to import raw materials, the quality, of course, only the problem grew, what for, it wasn’t needed anymore, by the time the Tokugawa Shogunate was established, or more correctly the Edo era, during which no one had fought with anyone, well, for the most part .

[Beck]

Quote: Syrzhn

The article is interesting, but there is no comparison here, in which I did not understand the similarities and differences.

Quote: Orty

Katanas often bent and broke, so the samurai and dragged not one, but two or three swords.

I will try to answer both as I can.

The name checker from Kabardino-Balkarian Sa-Shkho is a long knife. Since the formation of the Russian Cossacks came from the ancient Turkic custom of Cossacks, in addition to the borrowed vocabulary, Russian Cossacks inherited, as the main weapon, a Turkic saber that was worn suspended from a waist belt, on a belt. After the formation of the Terek Cossack army region from part of the Don Cossacks, the Russian Cossacks began to contact the highlanders of the Caucasus and gradually changed the Turkic saber to a Caucasian saber.

I don’t know the differences in blacksmithing, but the main external difference was that the mountaineers did not carry the saber on their belts, but on their shoulder straps, on their harnesses. And the bandage was not fixed on the belt, as it later became with the harness. That is, the checker hung freely. Another difference was the top of the hilt. All checkers on the top have a longitudinal recess. And all the checkers were subsequently made with this recess, although no one already knew why and why it was needed. Just considered a specific tradition of checkers.

And everything is explained in a simple and very practical way. And in the Caucasus there were wick, and then flintlock guns and the accuracy of the battle, these technologies did not differ. To improve the accuracy of shooting and needed a bandage and a longitudinal notch. When firing, the mountaineer stood on his left knee, with his left hand he put the saber in front of him, put the barrel of the gun on a longitudinal recess, aimed and fired. Firing accuracy was undoubtedly higher than shooting without stop. With a saber attached to the belt, this can not be done.

As for katanas, I do not agree that they all broke. Samurai were different, poor and rich. The blacksmiths were different, good and bad. Therefore, good blacksmiths were valued and they were expensive. Not every samurai could order a katana from a famous master. That was the middle katana. The real katana, the true master, is a creation both in art and in quality. A good katana did not break, did not bend, in hardness it was somewhat inferior to diamond, in elasticity it was not equal.

If sabers and checkers were initially given curvature, then katans were forged straight. The katans took their curvature naturally, in the process of hardening. Yes, iron in Japan was bad, but the craftsmen were good. For one katana, 7 kilograms of iron was taken and almost all slags were knocked out of these 7 kilograms by repeated heating and hammer blows. The end result was a kilogram or less of the purest with the best qualities of iron. So he went to the katana. A straight blade ready for hardening, from the side of the pick, along the entire length, half the width of the blade, was covered with a special clay mortar. Then the blade was heated to red and white, when it was already impossible to distinguish the color of red-hot clay and metal. Then they lowered the blade into cold water. The clay-free part of the blade, the blade, cools down immediately maintaining the structure of the molten metal and becomes, in hardness, similar to diamond. A part of the blade coated with clay cooled slowly and structural changes occurred that gave the blade elasticity. Tah in one blade combined the hardest fragility and elasticity. The elasticity did not allow the katanas to break, the hardness cut through all the armor. Here, as a result of inhomogeneous cooling, the katana blade also bent. On real katanas, anyone will see the aquarius of the entire blade a wavy line, this is a trace from the clay edge of the coating.

Something like that.

[Jin]

Quote: Beck

Katanas often bent

They basically can not bend! Only to break! The second, short sword, wakizashi, was worn only in addition to the katana !!! And it has nothing to do with the quality of the katana blade, this auxiliary weapon! God, what a heresy ...

[Beck]

Quote: Jin

They basically can not bend!

You read inattentively. These are not my words. These are the words of Ortho, and I oppose these words. Read carefully before writing.

[Jin]

Quote: Beck

You read inattentively.

Sorry, I see and read everything carefully, I just did not find who wrote it originally! And I’m laughing at this, it has nothing to do with you

[Beck]

Quote: Jin

Sorry, I see and read everything carefully, I just did not find who wrote it originally!

Sollglasen. These misunderstandings are the specifics of site communication. We drove on and drove on.

[Oldréd]

Apparently bent cheap fakes, It can be assumed, also, that there were a lot of them.

[Jin]

Quote: OldRed

Apparently bent cheap fakes, It can be assumed, also, that there were a lot of them.

You are absolutely right. and we’re talking specifically about KATANA and CHECKERS. And not about fakes.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Beck

A good katana did not break, did not bend, in hardness it was somewhat inferior to diamond, in elasticity it was not equal.

And such katana can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Yes, and "somewhat inferior in hardness to diamond" - as I understand it, nothing more than an artistic exaggeration.

[Beck]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Yes, and "somewhat inferior in hardness to diamond" - as I understand it, nothing more than an artistic exaggeration.

Well bent a bit, so a story without embellishment and not a story at all. But of medieval steel, katana is the most durable steel.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Beck

Well bent a bit, so a story without embellishment and not a story at all.

I agree with this, especially when it comes to fishing results, and if still under

Quote: Beck

But of medieval steel, katana is the most durable steel.

But let me disagree with this.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

But let me disagree with this.

Are you implying that this is a composite? Like Damascus, like the products of medieval Pomeranian gunsmiths

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Spade

Are you implying that this is a composite? Like Damascus, like the products of medieval Pomeranian gunsmiths

I didn’t understand your question very well, but if by composite we mean blacksmith welding of a hard high-carbon sheet between two soft low-carbon ones, then that was the case. Although basically a large hardness of the cutting edge was achieved by uneven hardening.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Although basically a large hardness of the cutting edge was achieved by uneven hardening.

And I heard that composite. Plus acid pickling. However, this may be for elite samples.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Spade

And I heard that composite.

That is, do not "by composite mean the forging of a hard high-carbon sheet between two soft low-carbon sheets"? What then do you mean by the term "composite", that is, "multi-component"?

Quote: Spade

Plus acid pickling

This is mainly for the manifestation of the pattern.

[old man54]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Quote: Spade

Plus acid pickling

This is mainly for the manifestation of the pattern.

here you love to not know the topic with a serious look to write ... you know what! A special pattern on the blade of the samurai sword - the homon, appears as a result of a special technique of steel hardening during forging. On it, the pros check the possible quality of the blade. This is in our time, with mass fakes of katan, the blade is treated with acid. Because they don’t own the technologies that today are almost completely lost even in Japan, and they don’t want to bother with decorative swords that will hang on the wall for show-offs.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: old man54

here you love to not know the topic with a serious look to write ... you know what!

I am happy that self-criticism is not alien to you.

Quote: old man54

A special pattern on the blade of the samurai sword - the homon, appears as a result of a special technique of steel hardening during forging.

But without grinding and etching its nichrome is not visible.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

But without grinding and etching its nichrome is not visible.

Where does this infa come from, if not secret? Not only are you a wonderful comedian, but also a great blacksmith catanodel? Or are you just grinding katana? Or poison with acid? Or can you only put a minus?

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

Where such infa, if not a secret?

Have you ever seen a blade forged, but not ground or etched? From here and "infa".

[Jin]

Quote: old man54

here you love to not know the topic with a serious look to write ... you know what! A special pattern on the blade of the samurai sword - the homon, appears as a result of a special technique of steel hardening during forging. On it, the pros check the possible quality of the blade. This is in our time, with mass fakes of katan, the blade is treated with acid. Because they don’t own the technologies that today are almost completely lost even in Japan, and they don’t want to bother with decorative swords that will hang on the wall for show-offs.

+ Here you are absolutely in the same ranks! I don’t understand which one, you unsubscribed to my post like that, and at that it’s not a topic at all ...

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

And I heard that composite. Plus acid pickling. However, this may be for elite samples.

everything is much more complicated there. in the manufacture of a real Japanese sword, not consumer goods. A real sword, not an extras, was made for several years. the master was built on its creation, and the best of the masters go into the mountains. they meditated, cleansed, prayed, and only then set about making a sword. The master always made a real sword on order, taking into account the physique of his future owner.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: old man54

everything is much more complicated there

Yes ... after all, anime is a terrible force. You would take them in a dose, or something. No ... in legends and temptations for tourists it is of course just like that - everything is complicated and very poetic, but ... in life everything is a little different.

[FRIGATE2]

Quote: Beck

Well bent a bit, so a story without embellishment and not a story at all. But of medieval steel, katana is the most durable steel.

Of the medieval, the most durable Damascus steel.
The Japanese people have been promoting the katana many times, the technology is ordinary, but they drove everyone into the head from movies and stories that the katana almost has 60 layers, cuts anything and everything.
Katana cuts only the Chinese and Japanese, since still 99% of their food is rice, and as you know rice is washing away calcium from bones

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

And such katana can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Yes, and "somewhat inferior in hardness to diamond" - as I understand it, nothing more than an artistic exaggeration.

No! Only after the Second World War, the Americans were taken out, of different periods of manufacture! This is not an artistic exaggeration. During the Second World War, when the amers fought with the Japanese, there was a video to raise the spirits of Japanese soldiers, where the master cuts a machine gun barrel. This, of course, can only be a great master, but there are just a few of them. And there are a lot of good swords.

[alex-cn]

in Russia there were also drafts with which Berdanov’s trunks were cut, but as I understand it, they were considered pieces

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Jin

During the Second World War, when the amers fought with the Japanese, there was a video to raise the spirits of Japanese soldiers, where the master cuts a machine gun barrel.

Thank you, made laugh.

[Jin]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Thank you, made laugh.

Laugh at health, laughter prolongs life! The fact is that your attitude to this does not affect reality and facts.
Sincerely.

[Oldréd]

It was a propaganda video. Most likely, a dummy made of soft iron was cut. I myself worked at a factory with metals. Not a single person has the strength to chop a real machine gun barrel

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: OldRed

It was a propaganda video. Most likely, a dummy made of soft iron was cut. I myself worked at a factory with metals. Not a single person has the strength to chop a real machine gun barrel

Exactly. No matter how master this person is. "+" To you.

[Jin]

Quote: OldRed

It was a propaganda video. Most likely, a dummy made of soft iron was cut. I myself worked at a factory with metals. Not a single person has the strength to chop a real machine gun barrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tT2R5-roQE

This is also a video, but I wanted to find another, there is no time, they start shooting from the Colt 1911 of the 45th caliber and comes to the same Browning machine gun. Notice with which bullet counts the blade is interrupted. And do not say that the bullets fly by. They spin from a collision. Can you imagine the energy of the bullet of this machine gun? I'm talking about the strength of the edge of the katana blade itself. I didn’t cut it, the fifth case. But the Blades were capitalized!

[kavad]

A wavy line is jamon. And the maximum hardness that I heard about katan is 71 according to Rockwell. An average of 62-66.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: kavad

And the maximum hardness that I heard about katan is 71 according to Rockwell. An average of 62-66.

71 on Rockwell for katana honestly did not meet anywhere. 60 - 62 HRC - these are swords manufactured industrially in the late XIX - early XX centuries from imported steel (due to 1,5% or more carbon). The original katanas of the late XVI - the second half of the XIX centuries had a mass of 58-60 HRC (if you do not consider cheap and massive katanas for the poor, now they make nails harder than they were), and only a small percentage had 60-62 HRC, and quite masterpieces could have a couple of units more hardness.
And even repeated forging could not save the situation, the metal burned out and degraded, losing carbon, became "loose" and such a workpiece could only be thrown away.

[Orty]

"Now let's talk directly about Japanese swords. I happened to see more than a dozen of them, and among them there were outstanding specimens both from the standpoint of the significance in the history of this art of an individual blacksmith or school to which this or that blade belonged, and from the standpoint of respectful attitude to the age of products that are not one or three hundred years old.I want to declare that among Japanese swords, most of them are completely utilitarian things, not shining with either the beauty of the lines, or the quality of hardening, or the general preservation. Such a number of blade chips as in Japanese swords , I have not seen either scimitars, or checkers, or other edged weapons. There are blades openly bent and then straightened, there are ineptly balanced ones. I was glad to read in a Japanese book that weapons during the civil wars were very simple, they wore out quickly, and did not feel sorry for him. I liked it, because it should be so by the nature of things, and I left the age of fairy tales long ago. I also found information, h then polishing swords, as is customary today, began in the Edo period, that is, in peacetime. It is understandable - why "strain" the polishers, if tomorrow there is a battle with a neighboring feudal lord, the day after tomorrow, the cleaning of their border villages, and on Sunday - an attack on the rebellious monastery. There is no time for beauty, to survive! So, Japanese weapons for the most part were just as utilitarian, mediocre in quality and discreet, as in the whole world. "This is a quote from Bazhenov for the quality of Japanese katanas, there is a lot more there, and so yes for Jin, the katanas HAVE BEEN and CRASHED and evidence of this darkness, if interested, read the book "History of the Japanese sword." The phrase "in principle cannot bend" smacks of idiocy, it all depends on what material it was made of, the quality of the absolute majority of katanas by European standards was complete ... only a few of the richest and famous samurai and daimyos had truly excellent swords that took years to make.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Orty

and so yes for Jin, the katanas WAS CRASHED and CRUMPED and evidence of darkness

Thank you comrade! I have been trying all day to bring this simple circumstance to respected comrades who stubbornly consider the katana a kind of superweapon, a kind of prodigy.

[kavad]

Katanas often bent and broke, so the samurai and dragged not one, but two or three swords.
It’s called - I heard a ring, but you don’t know where it is.
They were "two or three" DIFFERENT weapons. The greatsword is a katana, with a blade two or more shaku long. Wakizashi is small, with a blade less than two shaku. Less than one is tanto and aikuchi.
Syaku - 60 cm.
And breaking it was problematic thanks to zone hardening. And the low quality of the ore was offset by careful forging. There is such a good thing - martensite!

[Orty]

Read the post above once, secondly, what do you think, from what kind of buoy did the samurai start carrying so many pieces of iron with them? Moreover, you are wrong and they often carried exactly two katanas, complete with everything else. It was during the Edo period of peacetime, the wanking swords began, and a set of three blades was established. From here came all sorts of rituals, chopping off hands and other crap which samurai was engaged in idleness. Read the book "History of the Japanese sword" if you have not read it will be useful.

[SIT]

IMHO the checker is still more of a cavalry weapon and is intended for cutting from a horse. Hacking on foot or especially in a duel with weapons that do not have a guard can not be long. The first scratch with rapprochement and you are without half a hand. Katana in this sense is more practical. Its greater weight is offset by the possibility of a two-handed grip.

[Misantrop]

Quote: SIT

the checker is still more of a cavalry weapon and is intended for cutting from a horse.

This is a classic checker. There the weight and dimensions correspond. When restoring, even the question arose, how could our ancestors wave this "crowbar" for hours? The Budenov saber was intended for infantry combat and was smaller. By the way, the one in the photo has been lying in the Crimean land for at least half a century. And the metal parts are pretty well preserved.

Well, IMHO katana is more of a ritual, decorative weapon. For all its utter thoroughness, the manufacture of the blade. Well, think for yourself, there may be a BATTLE weapon in which all the details are fixed to each other on single transverse a pin with a diameter of 4 mm? Yes, and just plug-in, without fixing? Even a modern kitchen knife has a more secure grip.

By the way, in the internet I came across a "Guide to troubleshooting and damage to checkers arr. 1927 by means of military workshops"
http://rufort.info/lib/rukovodstvo-po-ustraneniyu-neispravnostey-i-povrezhdeniy-
v-shashkah-obr-1927-g-sredstvami-voyskovyih-masterskih-1932 /

[Nagaibak]

Misantrop "Budenovskaya saber was intended for infantry combat and had a smaller size."
Dear Misantrop! As far as I know, for the infantry battle the red cavalrymen had a rifle with a bayonet. And this was attached to the scabbard of this very piece of arr. 27 years. Fencing with a saber, and even on foot it is somehow bold. In equestrian combat, there was no time for fencing.
"A cavalry attack in those decades was a loose, fleeting one, it is impossible to linger for full-fledged fencing ... One blow. With a swing, with a pull, at full gallop. And then at full speed. And to fence with the enemy, even if this blow did not reach the goal." .. all the same it will not be necessary: ​​he is already far away, you have already been separated by the course of the battle ... "P.274 History of martial arts. Russia and its neighbors.-M.: Olympus; "AST Publishing House", 1997.
Of course, I read about the attacks of the Cossacks with sabers and spades in their hands on foot in separate episodes of the First World War and the Civil War, but this was because they did not have bayonets on rifles. In general, not from a good life.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Nagaibak

As far as I know, for the infantry battle the red cavalrymen had a rifle with a bayonet. And this was attached to the scabbard of this very piece of arr. 27 years.

Seriously? Here are just a photo of the drafts of 1903 As you can see, she also had mounts for the bayonet of the Mosin rifle of the 1891 model. It’s not by chance that I gave a link to the instruction. It says right at the beginning that:

Drafts of 1881, found in the ranks of the Red Army. They are divided into the following types:
...
3. A Cossack checker, distinguished from a dragoon by the absence of a hilt of a hilt. It is similar to a checker arr. 1927, but somewhat longer.

And in the same place:

The saber of the 1927 model is a chopping and stabbing cold weapon and is individually armed with the rank and file of the Red Army.
A checker is divided into the following types: a) with bayonet sockets - for armed with a rifle with a bayonet, b) without bayonet sockets for non-armed with a rifle.

Tellingly, it is NOT written ANYWHERE that a checker is a purely cavalry weapon. Moreover, among the types of checkers of the 1881 model there is also an artillery one "which differs from the dragoon in a somewhat shortened blade."

Of the samples that we managed to hold in our hands, this one, which is in the photo, is frankly difficult for an infantry battle, and the size is suitable for hitting from the saddle, frankly too big for a foot battle. The checker arr. 1927 is significantly shorter and lighter. The weight of the blade with a hilt is only 850 g, length 945 mm. It is suitable for infantry combat

Of course, I understand that in 1997 the publishing house was more visible than in 1931, but still ...

[Nagaibak]

Misantrop "The checker Model 1927 is noticeably shorter and lighter. The weight of the blade with the hilt is only 850 g, length is 945 mm. It is quite suitable for infantry combat."
Of course it suits if there is no other at hand. I assure you it is not much easier, and not so much shorter. Hehe ... this is not a cleaver. My sidekick has one of the 30th year of publication.
I will not impose my opinion on you, but I looked at her and held it in my hands. She does not fit with my infantry weapons in any way.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Nagaibak

I assure you it is not much easier, and not so much shorter.

I held both in my hands, SIMULTANEOUSLY. They dragged me together for restoration. So to compare the opportunity was. Very different, you know. And weight and size. By the way, did the ordinary artillery with its sword riding on the gun barrel go on the attack? Or did he nevertheless rely on a checker to defend his position directly? I haven’t been able to hold this one in my hands yet. Although, I suspect, the saber of the 1927 sample was licked from it, the descriptions are very similar

[Misantrop]

Quote: Nagaibak

She does not fit with my infantry weapons in any way.

By the way, in military schools (including naval) broadsword as a mandatory element of the form in the dismissal lasted almost until the middle of the 50s. The bandura is pretty, quite comparable to a saber in terms of mass and size. And, I assure you, there were definitely no horses in VVMUZ

[Joffrey]

I completely agree, you can fight with a shovel and a rake, or you can try to chop firewood with a military blade and say that this is an agricultural tool, like Suvorov's diary did.

[carbofo]

Quote: SIT

Katana is very different from Checkers, firstly it is a specialization.
A checker for equestrian combat, a Katana for foot combat, of course, it was possible to use the Checker in hand-to-hand combat or a Katana from a horse, but the effectiveness greatly depended on the circumstances.
If the cavalry battle was visually little different for both blades, the battle on the ground was already very different in the manner in which it was waged.
Honestly, I’m not very aware of exactly how the Checker was used, but if you look at the analogs according to the configuration of the blade and the handle, then the Checker was actually fenced or chopped in circular swings.
The katana in the manner of application was slightly different, this is like fencing of the Saber / Drafts type and swing slanting with a pull with two hands.
What the owners of the Katana did not do was not turn the sword!

[Kir]

Let's just say a very superficial article, let's start with the fact that if we talk about the "source", then the sashko is already in the Russified checker, but the main thing is that with the change of the "owner" the shape of the handle has changed and the attachment in the scabbard has become different, "army" as and other types of long-bladed weapons are "fastened" in the scabbard only with a blade, while in the original, in fact, only the "pommel" of the handle protruded from the scabbard.
With regards to the katana, well, here in the first place, you could just say that the multilayer, with regards to the same sword? Well, if you remember that the Japanese knew swords in the classical understanding, then most likely it is better to call it just a long-bladed weapon, but before 710 there is most likely an artistic whistle-myth in general, since given the fact that the so-called Japanese themselves appeared on the islands in 1 century BC-1 century AD where they were successfully kicked out of the area of ​​present-day Korea by more warlike tribes, so the "Japanese" are actually agrarians, just look at some of their weapons, which have an "ancestor" from the "agrarians", etc., etc. .P. and the samurai estate itself is not so ancient, it is not for nothing that the code of laws is called "Bushi-do" from the first Bushi warriors, and the code itself, according to some sources, was borrowed from the Korean Khwaran, plus the indigenous "neighbors" of the Ainu in the north and just an indigenous Polynesian group from whom and the legendary sumo ...... In short, most likely the "ancestor" of the katana, like our "sashko2, should be looked for in others, most likely among the Ainu.

[omsbon]

During the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 Cossack saber crossed with a katana. The results of the battles were far from in favor of the Japanese.

[Nagaibak]

omsbon "The results of the battles were far from in favor of the Japanese."
I must say that there were no great cavalry battles in the Japanese war. The Japanese were wary of challenging our cavalry and did the right thing. By the way, there were few cavalry battles in the First World War. The Austrians and Germans did not risk either. The battle of Yaroslavitsa taught them.

[carbofo]

Everything was simple, ours were much stronger and the largest of most Japanese people, most of them were not very skilled in using knives, especially Katana (since it was a sign of an aristocrat, there were few people who knew how to handle it!)
Mostly edged weapons were guns with a bayonet that they could against the Cossacks who were born with a Saber or Shashka !!.
Is the result obvious? any bayonet ended cutting Japanese units clean.
And then, Katana is poorly suited for equestrian combat, it suits very poorly for felling on the move, while the Checker on the contrary is adapted for felling on the move.

[MG42]

Quote: omsbon

During the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 Cossack saber crossed with katana

By that time, the samurai estate in Japan was abolished, only they were very well owned. In pedestrian combat, katana is preferable to sabers.

[Jin]

Quote: omsbon

The results of the battles were far from in favor of the Japanese.

Yes? only there, respected not by sabers and katans, they fought, but by quite modern, at that time, weapons. If you remember the Russian Empire lost that war! Both on land (Port Arthur) and on the sea (Tsushima).

[alex-cn]

but you can see later, in Zhukov’s memoirs ... what a pile of katan and saber, in mogul

[Rakti-kali]

Actually, the article is about nothing. With the repetition of the same myths.

[saruman]

Drafts and katana still have similarities. Due to the peculiarity of the wearing method (with the sharpened side of the blade up), a saber and a katana can hit the enemy with one movement when they are pulled out of the scabbard and without a backswing. Other types of long-bladed weapons are almost impossible to do. The rest of the fencing technique is very different.

[carbofo]

Not so much, all the same the blades are the same in profile, basically the differences are due to the grip, all the same, the Katana is two-handed!

[kapitan281271]

I myself don't understand this issue well, but my father used to pick edged weapons quite seriously, somehow being still a kid (then videos of schmidics and related films began to appear), I asked my father, "Why is the Japanese sword really so serious", he smiled very sarcastically and shook his head no. Guys, be so kind as to explain how the saber differs from the checkers, the guy writes that a lot has been written about this never intelligibly, not where he read

[carbofo]

If simply, unlike the Saber, the Saber, its main difference is the closed hilt.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0_%28%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8
3%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5%29
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1
%8F_%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%8F
“The lack of a guard (protection for the hand) facilitated the checker and moved the center of gravity towards the edge of the blade. Due to this, the checker became lighter, more maneuverable and, at the same time, it was hit harder. ”

- The weight of the checkers and sabers did not differ significantly. In 1841, both a saber and a saber were in service, they weighed up to 1500 grams each. But the weight distribution of the blades was significantly different: at the checker the center of gravity is closer to the point, at the saber - to the hilt. The length of the saber is more than a meter, and the length of the saber is about 80 centimeters. They relate to various design lines. The end of the checker is not sharp, it is not intended for a stabbing strike (the sharp end was needed for piercing chain mail with a stabbing strike, and when using the checkers firearms were already fully used and chain mail was abandoned). This is the difference between the techniques: with a checker they do not so much “feint” from the brush, but deliver powerful, strong blows “from the body”, which are extremely problematic to parry. They hit with a checker both from the body (in order to cut the opponent “to the saddle”) and from the brush (in this case, due to the shift of the center of gravity of the checker due to the lack of a guard and the absence of a pointed end, despite its low weight, the opponent could be cut in a horizontal plane )

[Jin]

They chop with a saber, cut with a saber, cut "with a broach".

[Joffrey]

With all your desire, you cannot cut a checker to the saddle, due to design features, it is not intended for this.

[Djozz]

I have a damask blade, a dagger officer dagger 1882 sample. I can not find analogues. I saw a similar saber on a weapon display in the Hermitage.

[Ragnar]

there is a very good article about katana on lurkomorye

[combat192]

In the history of the Russian-Japanese war, there is only one mention of someone who looks like a ninja.
From the incident report at the location of hundreds of Cossack centurion Pereslegin:
“On the third day, a hundred stood in the second line of security, which made it possible to cook food and make fires. At XNUMX o'clock in the afternoon, a strange Japanese man came out of the bushes to the fires to guard the guard. All in black, twitched and hissed. Esaul Petrov this Japanese hit in the ear, why died in speed"...

[combat192]

By the way, one more moment.
Have you noticed that in the movie "White Sun of the Desert" a samurai sword Tati is attached to the harness of the unlucky second lieutenant Semyon from Abdullah's gang? Is this a hint of the combat past of this character or did the Mosfilm props have nothing more suitable?

[Ytfluunu]

most likely purely for exotic. gang, armament with pine forest. I don’t think that Mosfilm’s requisites didn’t just find checkers ...
As for the subject, there is no wunderwolf, there are masters and inept. I think, in the 17th century, any Polish nobleman with a karabela, or a French chevalier with a "Walloon" would not yield to a samurai with a katana.

[Tatb]

No props was! he’s just like a popandopal, like a wedding in a robin!

[WW3]

Saber, checker and katana. Comparison

[Joffrey]

Such a hunch that Kormushin does not own one or the other.

[Des10]

Both the saber and katana are the weapons of one decisive blow. They were not fencing and not showing off.

[Karah]

The article is "nothing". No real comparison, just the most general information.

[harrymur]

There was a lot of research on this topic, which sword is cooler or saber, the answer was unequivocal - the European straight sword is the most powerful cold weapon in terms of energy, this is the topic of video simulation of a duel for a computer game, one of the differences between fencing schools is the lack of shields in Japan equipment of fighters

[old man54]

you are repeating the nonsense, cunningly popped up by the gamerists, from the series "our gameropean is always the best"!: ((If you are studying this issue on similar videos and computer models, well, study further, I will not waste my time on discussion with you. Apparently the world has almost completely gone crazy! :)

[Misantrop]

Quote: old man54

from the series "our gay European is always the best"!

Not at all. The best was ... a set of Slavic warrior. At least for its versatility. With his help, it was possible to resist both a heavily armed European warrior and an Asian with his exoticism. And to repel nomads from the southeast, the same kit was successfully used. Well, the Slavs did not have several sets of weapons, one controlled. And successfully survived. Practice is the best criterion

[alex-cn]

only why, already under Alexander Nevsky, did the Russian professional squad begin to switch to sabers?

[Misantrop]

Quote: alex-cn

Under Alexander Nevsky, did the Russian professional squad begin to switch to sabers?

Therefore, she began to switch over, because the battle style changed over time, a new type of weapon was required. They would, of course, immediately go to the AK-47 with a bayonet ...

But seriously, those who were worse armed won and conquered

[Joffrey]

A saber is more convenient for equestrian combat.

[old man54]

Quote: Misantrop

The best was ... a set of Slavic warrior. At least for its versatility. With his help, it was possible to resist both a heavily armed European warrior and an Asian with his exoticism.

where did you get that? The personal qualities of the Slavic wars are certainly not in doubt, but their victories were often not forged, alas, by these very qualities! And the outfit, in particular, of the ancient and medieval Slavic wars was closer to the Samurai-Japanese, i.e. more agile and less constraining than those of the same then gay men!

[harrymur]

Sorry, I don’t understand what the blades and “geyrop” have to do with it)), it’s strange to politicize this topic, and the research was carried out by our “natural” scientists, there was a series of programs on the “natural” Russian channel Russia2, in general, you don’t find it strange , because the Russian straight sword is also not "natural" then)))

[old man54]

Quote: harrimur

Sorry, I don’t understand what the blades and “geyrop” have to do with it)), it’s strange to politicize this topic, and the research was carried out by our “natural” scientists, there was a series of programs on the “natural” Russian channel Russia2, in general, you don’t find it strange , because the Russian straight sword is also not "natural" then)))

you again did not understand, already me. I am not politicizing, but saying that such studies, in favor of European weapons today, have one common goal with many other things happening today!

[harrymur]

and Russia where then, at least for that period of Japanese civil strife, these are the Middle Ages, as I understand our ancestors did not live in Europe in Japan, it’s hard to understand how everything is chaotic and contradictory in your posts, where is your patriotism)))

[old man54]

Quote: harrimur

it’s hard for you to understand how everything is confused and contradictory in your posts where your patriotism is)))

Well, if there is a confusion, then please forgive me, I was worried, the topic of this article is too close to my Soul!
Patriotism patriotism, but Truth is dearer to me! And I didn’t say anywhere that the Slavic (Russian) warrior of the AMS.o.!? :) Not at all! Moreover, I believe that the medieval omunition of the Slavic war on the concept, the provision of mobility, lightness and technological sophistication is just more eastern. than european! We never had heavy knights, a la geyropa from the time of the colonial wars in the BV (Crusades)! And not because they could not afford such a thing, which was sluggish, but because even mentally and historically (according to our ancient military traditions and combat techniques), such Slavs were not close to omunitions. Ours, Slavic, even when the iron began to be pre-installed in it, is more free and light.
I actually wrote about it then to you.

[harrymur]

I don’t agree, look kmeti, princely guard, close squad, these bulls were wearing no less iron than the knights of the order, but we started colonizing Siberia later, then we went squeaking, we drove to Alaska))
but I agree about the Crusades, our Orthodox Church denied the army of Christ, the only confirmed Orthodox knights were slacking and overexposure, according to legend, they blessed Radonezh to the army,
so that I wouldn’t talk about the Slavs as light moving shirts, it all depended on a primitive dough, there is it and armor, as it is now however))

[Corneli]

Quote: old man54

We never had heavy knights, a la geyropa from the time of the colonial wars in the BV (Crusades)! And not because they could not afford such a thing, which was sluggish, but because even mentally and historically (according to our ancient military traditions and combat techniques), such Slavs were not close to omunitions.

http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/388/tqbq718.jpg http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/809/mvej222.jpg
The Europeans of the time of the Crusades were in chain mail or hauberies, of which, unlike the Slavic warriors, they had helmets and a great protection (in general) of the limbs. The main difference can be considered the very conduct of the battle. Mounted Europeans practiced ramming with spears, while the Slavs mainly felled.
P.S. Explain ignoramus, how to upload pictures? ((((

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: old man54

you are repeating nonsense, cleverly posed by gayropeys, from the series "our gayropean is always the best"!

The most interesting thing is that this is not nonsense - the banal bastard half-handicraftsman of the XIV - XV centuries could cut both the katan and its owner from Tamechka to jo ... it's ... loins.

[old man54]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

The most interesting thing is that this is not nonsense - the banal bastard half-handicraftsman of the XIV - XV centuries could cut both the katan and its owner from Tamechka to jo ... it's ... loins.

what are you saying? :))) I would like to have a little fencing with you, my dear, and see how you would do it. :)) A very primitive and short-sighted look at the problem, I'm sorry. With the Geyropei medieval technique of fighting based on heavy swords, the base was put on a powerful chopping blow from top to bottom, well, or on an even slower powerful shot forward! In samurai, the basis of technology was mobility and maneuverability. Bottom line: withdrawing to the side and forth from such a clear blow from above, skillfully, is not a problem! Further, with the rotation of the hull, you chop the side of the striker sideways, almost horizontally, and all! :) One of the options.

[Misantrop]

Quote: old man54

Bottom line: withdrawing to the side and forth from such a clear blow from above, skillfully, is not a problem!

Seriously? In a duel - I agree, not too difficult. And in the dense crowd of the advancing system? Or thicker than the defender? Where stupidly there is nowhere to evade, there the same iron whistles at this time ...

It happened to my coach once. The crowbar is not the fastest weapon, but there was nowhere to dodge, I had to block the blow to the head from above with my hand. It turned out that there is still a trick against scrap, the proverb lies ... True, the crack in the bone of the forearm was still ...

[tupolev-95]

I support! That on foot, that in an equestrian mass battle, the Europeans would roll the Japanese into a pancake. In a one-on-one battle, the samurai would have an advantage in mobility and speed, would be able to deliver more blows, but the knight is better protected, and one of his blow, which reached the target, would mean the end of the battle. The outcome would depend on a personal skill - the Japanese are quick and agile, the European is taller, larger, stronger. Katana is undoubtedly good and versatile, but for the battlefield where it was used. Despite all their military spirit, the Japanese sat on the islands, with the exception of a couple of sorties to Korea, and the Europeans went on crusades, and later they began to colonize other continents. How many fighters did Cortes have and how many Indians opposed them? The tsunami saved the Japanese from the Mongols.

[Beck]

Quote: Tupolev-95

I support! That on foot, that in an equestrian mass battle, the Europeans would roll the Japanese into a pancake. In a one-on-one battle, the samurai would have an advantage in mobility and speed, would be able to deliver more blows, but the knight is better protected, and one of his blow, which reached the target, would mean the end of the battle. The outcome would depend on personal skill - the Japanese are quick and agile, the European is taller, larger, stronger.

I agree half.

All Japanese fencing schools are designed for a duel - one on one in the open field. And in such a fight, in my opinion, no one can defeat a samurai. In the ranks, on foot, on horseback, most of the one-on-one combat skills cannot be applied. Therefore, the ability to filigree fencing in battles does not matter much. Over half the life of the Chinese trained in monasteries and martial arts, and Sanda, and Shaolin Quan, and Tiant and others. And the nomadic steppes from the north came and smashed the Chinese armies, superior in chiliness.

The system is the system. Lava is lava.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Beck

All Japanese fencing schools are designed for a duel - one on one in the open field.

About fencing and its Japanese schools - watch Japanese "samurai" films of the 50s. The fight lasts 5-10 seconds during which the fighter manages to complete, speaking in terms of European fencing, 2-3 phrases. That is 2-3 movements and someone died. And this is a universal school for both duel and war. This is what Japanese fencing is all about. And not the jumps and antics of pseudo samurai in modern cinema.

Quote: Beck

And in such a fight, in my opinion, no one can defeat a samurai

If at the end of the XVI - beginning of the XVII century a samurai argued with a Milanese, then for the life of a samurai I would not give a penny eaten out, not a broken egg.
If this happened in the second half of the XVII century - the beginning of the XVIII century, and put a Frenchman in place of a Milanese, then the poor samurai would simply be crushed, humiliated and stabbed, well, or stabbed.

[Beck]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

If at the end of the XVI - beginning of the XVII century a samurai argued with a Milanese, then for the life of a samurai I would not give a penny eaten out, not a broken egg.
If this happened in the second half of the XVII century - the beginning of the XVIII century, and put a Frenchman in place of a Milanese, then the poor samurai would simply be crushed, humiliated and stabbed, well, or stabbed.

Well, in this matter, we cannot find the truth in everyone. If we insist nothing good will come of it, since there are no objective criteria.

And by the way. The barbarians did not leave fencing schools behind them, but the trained Roman legions smashed, and eventually overthrew the Roman Empire. The nomadic steppes did not spend half their lives on meditation and exhausting training. So the Hunnish wave reached the plains of France and the north of Italy. Another Genghis wave to the Adriatic.

Something like that.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Beck

Well, in this matter, we cannot find the truth in everyone.

I will not argue with that. I simply do not consider it permissible to idealize individual national "schools" of fencing.

[Joffrey]

Moreover, the overwhelming number of Mongols with weapons had bows, and lassos.

[old man54]

Quote: Misantrop

It happened to my coach once. The crowbar is not the fastest weapon, but there was nowhere to dodge, I had to block the blow to the head from above with my hand. It turned out that there is still a trick against scrap, the proverb lies ... True, the crack in the bone of the forearm was still ...

Well, what am I telling you about? :) All these howls today are on a branch like: that’s a heavy sword of the owner of a katana and ...; or an ax and whether his halberd. and let him stand and wait for it to fly in, and he’s not defending himself! :)) He laughed while reading! A crack in the bones ... dui not quite right he put the top block, or late, or the corners were not right. He probably hasn’t worked it out, sorry. If everything is correct, then there should be no cracks, maximum bruise.

[Misantrop]

Quote: old man54

or late

That is what did not have time. Since the champion of the Kiev district in hand-to-hand combat has not worked out the block ... somehow it does not fit ...

[old man54]

Quote: Misantrop

Since the champion of the Kiev district in hand-to-hand combat has not worked out the block ... somehow it does not fit ...

But you know ... it happens, I judge from my own experience and from the stories of my Swokgo master (trainer), and he has a black belt and more than 20 years of experience in training and personal teaching.

[alex-cn]

on armor "crayfish belly"

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: old man54

what are you saying? :))) I would like to have a little fencing with you, my dear, and see how you would do it. :))

I do not like to show off. Fencing with elements of acrobatics and choreography certainly looks very spectacular, especially in the movies, but in a real situation, a fight / duel lasts seconds, a maximum of tens of seconds, if professionals of about the same class fight.

Quote: old man54

A very primitive and shortsighted view of the problem, sorry. With the Geyropei medieval technique of fighting based on heavy swords, the base was put on a powerful chopping blow from top to bottom, well, or on an even slower powerful shot forward!

And you compare the mass of the katan and the bastard of the half-handicraft or the early espada of his descendant and you will understand that you are mistaken.
Hint: bastard half-picker, espado - from 1000 to 1400 grams, ceremonial and civil espada weighed even less. Sabers - 900 - 1100 grams, spats - 600 - 1200 grams. Katana - 1100 - 1500 grams.
By the way, type in the search engine "gross-messer" and make sure that not only the Japanese were so smart. Blades of a similar katana type were also known in Europe.

Quote: old man54

With the Geyropei medieval technique of fighting based on heavy swords, the base was put on a powerful chopping blow from top to bottom, well, or on an even slower powerful shot forward! In samurai, the basis of the technique was mobility and maneuverability.

You either idealize the Japanese on the basis of the anime watched (to be honest, I just adore them), or you know very little about the cold-blade weaponry technique in Europe. And most likely both.

[old man54]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

You either idealize the Japanese on the basis of the anime watched (to be honest, I just adore them), or you know very little about the cold-blade weaponry technique in Europe. And most likely both.

I am not interested in discussing with you, sorry. it makes sense to do with a person who can hear the interlocutor, but you bulging your eyes and covering your ears insist on your point! Stay your way, I do not care! Good luck to you!

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: old man54

I am not interested in discussing with you, sorry. it makes sense to do with a person who can hear the interlocutor, but you bulging your eyes and covering your ears insist on your point! Stay your way, I do not care! Good luck to you!

The typical answer of a person who: - "bulging your eyes and plugging your ears insist on your point, period!" - accuse the interlocutor of incompetence and inattention, instead of reasonedly defend your point of view.

[candy bar140105]

I will probably greatly surprise you, but a berserker can only do "explicit blows from above" once in a lifetime))), the time was like that, it did not forgive mistakes. A warrior of the Middle Ages, hardened in battles, was capable of much more and physical data allowed him to swing a sword at a pace for a long time, this is not a XNUMX-meter Japanese man ...
But of course it would hardly have come to a sword fight, a heavily armed cavalry would have spread the samurai on the ground ..

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: baton140105

this is not a half meter japanese to you .....

In the XVI century, such a Japanese would be considered very tall.

[alex-cn]

"Another difference was the top of the hilt. All checkers on the top have a longitudinal recess. And all the checkers were subsequently made with this recess, although no one knew why or what it was needed for. They simply considered a specific tradition of checkers."
The scimitar has a similar thing, but there it is a tribute to tradition, since the first scimitars had a handle made of bone, a mosle joint, sorry. Specialists, tell me, what is it - tradition or convenience, especially since the "legends" of the origin of the scimitar and checkers are very similar?

[Kir]

Well, let's say it’s not quite so, not all Caucasian checkers have such a thing, look at the collection of Caucasian weapons from the collection of the State Historical Museum of the State Historical Museum, but as far as I remember, the classic with a sharpening on the concave side, also had a scabbard on its head, and if you continue the parallels, and even part of the so-called Finnish knives, it also has similarities in the scabbard mount on the head and the top of the handle has similarities, but in modern times it is more likely a tribute to tradition.

[Beck]

Quote: alex-cn

the scimitar has similar things, but there it is a tribute to tradition, as the first scimitars had a bone handle, a joint of a moslem, sorry.

I'm not special. But the notch on the hilt of the scimitar carries no function. The hilt of the scimitar is so massive and fitting the edge of the palm is made so because the scimitar has a double reverse bend of the blade and the blade is located on the inner edge of the bend. Therefore, the scimitar during the cabin had a tendency to break out of his hand. Therefore, the top and fit the edge of the palm helping to hold the scimitar.

And the notch on the top of the checkers is for shooting. As gazyry not for decoration, but as a bandoleer for a pre-measured amount of gunpowder, bullet, wad.

[old man54]

The author liked the article very much, undoubtedly "+", despite the multiple bloopers and incompetence in the body of the article itself. I did not expect to see such material, albeit not deep here, on VO.

As for the Japanese samurai sword, also known as the Katana, it is considered one of the best examples of edged weapons in its entire history.

According to the majority of edged weapons masters, real and not Internet, today the katana, as the latest form of the samurai sword, is by far the best universal personal cold weapon, if firearms are excluded from the application! It is very versatile, it can be effectively used in a personal foot duel, in frontal foot combat and in horseback riding. It also fits perfectly as a weapon of self-defense in the most unexpected place and time!

During the twelfth - nineteenth centuries the katana existed almost unchanged. Katana was considered a mandatory attribute of Japanese aristocrats, and only in the middle of the nineteenth century, after the Meiji revolution, officials were obliged to wear European-type swords.

Well this is nonsense !!! And terry, I'm sorry! The samurai sword has evolved very much, always, throughout its history. Its evolution stopped after the end of the 100 anniversary of the civil wars in Japan, and especially after the arrival of mass firearms in Japan. The fact that most amateurs today believe that the katana has always been the main weapon of the samurai (Japanese knight) is one of their main misconceptions. Katana has replaced the traditional "tati" (to a longer and stronger curved sword) after the unification of Japan by Yoji Yoshikawa and its further transformations of his followers! It was then that they were formed as a class of society - the class of samurai, and the rest was forbidden by the law to wear long swords. Excess weapons were taken from society and a ritual statue was cast from them! Samurai, because weekly battles and battles have disappeared, stopped wearing special protective combat clothing (only on holidays and ceremonies), and began to wear cotton kimano. And then, over time, the katana appeared, as a shortened and straightened version of the tati sword, allowing to apply not only chopping blows, but also stabbing, which in personal duel fights was preferable.

The use of katana in feudal Japan was more than cruel. To check the sharpness of the sword, they chopped prisoners to see how it affects the bones of the fabric.

not true!! If this was the case, it is extremely rare! only high class swords, very expensive, were mainly tested on corpses, for which a recognized master of the sword was invited and there was a special technique for testing the sword, its sv-in and cutting ability. Cheap swords, mass production, not tested so carefully! But, in principle, the samurai always had the legal right to punish a commoner for disrespect, rudeness or insult to his dignity, at his discretion, and even death. For this he did not have anything. And this was sometimes used by some samurai to test their new sword or hone a new strike technique. But such people were not respected by the main part of the samurai class, where it was cultivated: "If you took out the sword, then chop it, but don't take it out! But kill only when you see no other way out of the situation!"

[carbofo]

Quote: old man54

And then, over time, the katana appeared, as a shortened and straightened version of the tati sword, allowing to apply not only chopping blows, but also stabbing, which in personal duel fights was preferable.

What about the evolution of the Saber to the Checker! does not remind you of the mentioned transformation of the Sword into a Katana.

Quote: old man54

It also fits perfectly as a weapon of self-defense in the most unexpected place and time!

Actually, it looks like it was created specifically as a personal and not a military weapon, at least in that quality it was used, for the battle the samurai often changed the katana to a long sword.

[old man54]

Comparison of real weapons of a samurai during the era of internecine wars and the Russian (Cossack) checkers is like a finger and well .. to compare, sorry! The saber of the model for adopting it into service with the tsarist army is a personal chopping weapon intended mainly for use only from a horse, from a saddle during an attack with horse lava !! To move with her on foot, and even more so to run, and even more so to be maneuverable (to fall sharply (lie down) to get up, jump somewhere - it is very difficult, cramming! Even during foot movements, the checker suspension system gave a lot of trouble to gentlemen officers, because she hit her legs and had to hold her with her left hand. There was no question of "running" with her!
But not just a "katana", but even a real combat weapon of a samurai tachi, which is longer than a katana, was attached in a special way to the samurai's belt horizontally, which allowed the tank not only to tinker with it, but also to make light somersaults if desired, for example, to roll over head.

Both the checker and the katana have a rich and deep history, so we can confidently talk about

Yes, of course! :)) How many "centuries" are the Russian drafts? :) Maxium since the beginning of the exploration and conquest of the Caucasus! And the history of the military personal weapons of the samurai is at least more than 1000 years old, although there is data that is much more. The katana itself appeared "on the scene" in the 17th century (according to Christian chronology), and when the saber, as we know it? In the 2nd half of the 18th century! And where are they the same age?
Systems of hardening and sharpening (polishing with samurai swords) with katana and checkers, it is like heaven and earth. A real samurai sword is a work of art, it is sharp as a German dangerous razor, and much easier than a Cossack checker. Why compare the incomparable, try to cling to this to the greatness of that. what are you comparing ?? I don’t understand the author here!

[Horde]

KATANA is considered a SWORD, although in fact it is a saber, just two-handed.
Well, the article is not about anything at all. So CHECK A CIRCUSIAN invention, well, what else can historians say about this? If there are less than a million Circassians now, how many were there at the time of such a serious military invention as the Checker? In general, the Circassians themselves appeared on the Petersburg court papers in the early 19th century before there were always Cherkasy-Cossacks.
This story of the appearance of the Checkers looks strange.

Actually, in the translation from Circassian the word "checker" means "big knife"

does a knife mean? In general, how could a knife become a saber-saber? what the hell.

Cossacks borrowed this type of weapon in the Caucasus, after which the checkers found their distribution not only in the Russian army, but also in Central Asia

Cossacks could not borrow a saber from the Circassians or Ossetians because it was the Cherkasy Cossacks who lived in the foothills of the Caucasus and it was the Cossacks who ALWAYS fought in any century since their first mention in the 14th century.

Despite the fact that this type of weapon came from the Caucasus, regular Russian troops received a slightly modified sample, which was called the Asian type checker. And the whole point was that the requirements for this weapon were different: if the Caucasus needed compactness and convenience for hidden carrying, then for the Cossacks the main thing was massiveness (weight of the blade) and convenience in battle.

so the Caucasian knife became a saber thanks to the Cossacks, and then in Central Asia? Well, it's generally something like "BISTRO appeared thanks to the Cossacks in France", but it is clear that the role of the Cossacks in this story is negligible, as well as with the saber. How can you believe such stories? The BIGGEST military formations known in any history, the people - warrior Cossacks make up for the search for weapons among insignificant peoples whose very existence is doubtful?
There are such studies of history using language artifacts, for example
the word SHTYK by TI is considered the word Polish, but of course the mass application is German with the use of rifles with a bayonet and of course there is no doubt because the bayonet is clear what is correct in German. However, what is the etymology of this word? Neither in Polish, not in German, nor in any other do not look for the meaning of IT.
Only in Russian is it absolutely clear that the GUN is TYK. Well, Sh, of course, was attached to make it look like abroad.

[alex-cn]

German - stock from there and came, as a kind of weapon

[Horde]

Quote: alex-cn

German - stock from there and came, as a kind of weapon

Well, what is STOCK?
generally common German bayonet-baguette

[alex-cn]

the rod is the rod in Russian, the baguette is the bayonet’s predecessor, it was inserted into the barrel, turning the gun into a spear, the bayonet makes it possible to shoot and stab

[Horde]

,

Allain manesson

Emp du Iapon - Der Keysser in Japonien.

Frankfurt, December 1719st, XNUMX
Copper engraving, hand colored in outline and wash. Decorative hand colored engraving showing the Japanese emperor (around 1684/1719).

http://www.bergbook.com/htdocs/Cache315.htm

pay attention to the emperor of Japan's saber, as it is very different from the katana, as well as the "emperor" himself from the Japanese

And here is another old image, a couple of days ago present on the above site:

http://forum.lirik.ru/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=363
Here is how it was:

"In 1877, samurai were forbidden to wear a saber, which was a distinctive sign of their dignity.

When the samurai wore armor, tati and tanto were usually used instead of katana and wakizashi ... samurai wore katana as part of civilian clothes, and tati as part of military armor. Paired with the tati, tanto or aikuti were more common than the wakizashi short sword of the katana. In addition, the richly decorated tati were used as a ceremonial weapon in the courts of shoguns (princes) and the emperor.

[old man54]

You have just the tati in the picture! :) Thank you. I didn’t attach something.)

[Igarr]

By the way, the archaic structure of the blade is very clearly visible.
How else to provide an acceptable strength - without displaying it as a diamond? With dead ore.
This is only in legends ... "they let the blade rust, then forged it. Only titanium remained, and the iron left.
Therefore, they did not give in to forging and only the masters knew the secrets ... "
Titanium - forged at all? Manually?
And how is it fused?
Tati ... mother.
...
Why are they so able to breed us there? We are looking for the legendary Bui Hui Mui Throwing armor.
..
A Sword-Kladenets - not looking ???
Riddle.

[Kir]

Well, actually, I personally have forged titanium and it seems like they did it by hand, but actually it's just nonsense, then what was the hardness of their blade? Yes, alpha beta titanium, and then it has a hardness of about 50. And what is the weight of the blade? Then it was necessary to make for the weight of the butt not 5 but 7-8mm, etc., etc., and to melt the titanium Oh how simple it is, not otherwise shamans forged! Igarr a reference to a miracle info not share? Although if in nete it is possible to dig out such nonsense.

[Igarr]

Good questions ...
Titanium - forged ... on this blew out into sweat.
And the link is simple - http://www.gallery-nasledie.ru/glnas/catalog/zlatoust.php,
not the most ...
here is ..http: //www.mirf.ru/
...
Do not be confused by the World of Fantasy. Writers of this genre are much more responsible for their ..pi saki.
And this is good.
Because their own ... pi..saki ... eat faster than worms. Not deduced.
...
...
Two properties - sharpening and flexibility - are absolutely opposite to each other.
Or possible in narrow frames - such as razor blades
Among other things ... never cut a sheet of A4 paper?
And the cut is very painful ... because it’s smooth.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Igarr

This is only in legends ... "they let the blade rust, then forged it. Only titanium remained, and the iron left.

These are not fairy tales, but a method of making the so-called "ferrous iron". But titanium has nothing to do with it; iron oxide, forged into the structure, gave increased creep. Here it is described well:
http://www.arhangelskie.com/stat_6.html

[Igarr]

I believe.
I agree.
I admit it.
I will serve.
I'll sit down.
...
As well as pumping nitrogen into tires, it serves as noise absorption, noise reduction, noise cancellation and the rest is ..
Oh...
I ran ..
argon with a dispersion of plutonium-238 pumped ..
Masha, they’re warming, after that .. the beast !!!! If you get up from half past five ...

[Igarr]

Well, let's stop doing nonsense ...
What is iron oxide?
There are only three .. or five?
How can you forging metal structure - derived from metal?
Well...
Do you have anything against me?
Duck lan ..
in August I will go to Germany.
I’ll be gone for a month.
What is now ... breaking pieces of wood ????

[Misantrop]

Quote: Igarr

Well, let's stop doing nonsense ...
What is iron oxide?
There are only three .. or five?
How can you be forged into a metal structure - a derivative of metal?

And the link in that post for what? There are even photographs, if anyone has difficulty reading A man (far from a sucker in this matter) decided to deal with the issue and conducted experiments. All this there is quite clearly displayed, the whole sequence of experiments

Quote: Igarr

Do you have anything against me?

I AM? Why on earth?

[old man54]

Quote: Igarr

By the way, the archaic structure of the blade is very clearly visible.
How else to provide an acceptable strength - without displaying it as a diamond?

They made fun, it works out for you! :) Have you seen the cross-sectional profile of the checkers? :)) It’s probably flat or square, huh :) There’s the ore of the ogo :)) so it’s probably the same thickness, from the blunt end to the blade, huh?

[Igarr]

Friend old man ...
You actually ... understand what we're talking about,
NOT?

[ed65b]

I did not understand the article, I did not understand. Where are the beautiful legends ???? Where is Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny chopping the enemy with a saber to the saddle? Boring.

[Evrepid]

What the fuck are legends?
My grandfather fought in the first horse and with a saber chopped a man to the saddle, and I held in his hands the saber with which he did this.

Grandfather had strengths ... to hell, alone, at the age of 70 years, he raised a stone with the dimensions:
25 cm x 50 cm x 75 cm, such are the plates carved from shell rock.

[Djozz]

I have a drgun officer saber, model 1882-1909. Bulat, Zlataust arms factory, there is gold coinage, the blade is like a razor and bends well, the quality is excellent. I will be glad to hear the opinion of experts. On the blade engraving "From comrades"

[Igarr]

With such happiness and at large?
...
The fact itself - flexibility and sharpness - already speaks of damask steel.
Under a microscope did not examine the body? There should be a wavy pattern. Or to the reflection ..
You can try cutting a kitchen knife, and vice versa. Someone who cuts will scratch.
What traces does sandstone leave?
But, in fact, the engraving ..- from comrades .. It is unlikely that the comrades began to vyuhivat.
How is the hilt fixed? What is the blade profile?
Photo would be posted .....

[Djozz]

The pattern is wavy, similar to moire, Ephesus with a guard, remnants of gilding, gold chasing in the Art Nouveau style to the middle of the blade on a black background. The blade is sharpened to the middle, the hilt is ebony. I will try to make a high-quality photo.

[Djozz]

Give louse email. mail

[Igarr]

This is only in PM.
And why is this for you?
You own a rarity. Fix it in local authorities. I’m honestly don’t want to say - the authorities ..
At the local museum of local lore. and let the notary confirm - your property.
It will be expensive. I guarantee.
But it’s legal.
Want to sell - sell at auction.
I would ... keep forever.
And I would sell accessories .. a lanyard there, a ribbon, a tie, a pendant, a decoration, a dusting.
BREATHING, damn it ... heirs.
Well, what's up, huh?

[DZ_98_B]

The Japanese are small in stature, physically weak, and therefore it took a sword to handle it with 2 hands and as light as possible, otherwise the yapes would simply die near their swords. What about the Russians? And remember the saying of the Russian horsemen, RUBI HIM TO THE SADDLE, ONE HE WILL DECLINE! AND RUBE !!! With one hand, a light saber. Katana was made a legend not so long ago. Neither in the Japanese War, nor in the Second World War, no one heard of Japanese swords. Hollywood made the famous katana, looking for what lured the viewer. The technology for making katanas is similar to Damascus steel, perhaps damask swords were forged in this way. The masters turned out great swords. But the master made units of swords, to attribute some legendary properties to the katana. what for?

[Evrepid]

Damask steel and Japanese steel have a different structure:
Булат в слитке: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%91%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8
B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA.jpg?uselang=ru

Pay attention to the structure of the metal under the microscope
damask steel: http://www.russian-knives.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/DSC02574.jpg
Katana Steel: http://lhbeau.deviantart.com/art/Katana-Blade-Under-Microscope-220381576

[Oldréd]

The claim that katana is the best cold weapon in history seems rather dubious to me. All weapons were made for specific conditions of use. Japan is characterized by: 1. almost complete absence of serious armor, shields are also practically not used 2. most fights take place on foot, the use of cavalry is not permanent and widespread both because of the high cost of keeping horses, and because almost all of Japan the terrain is rather rugged 3. due to the rugged terrain, Japanese tactics do not imply dense constructions like phalanges, tezii, square and slow straight-line sumo battles. The Japanese detachments, acting in one or another variant of the loose system, maneuver a lot, try to get around the enemy, carry out a firefight for a long time, attack quickly, retreat, regroup. The Japanese battle is a cat fight, not a bullfight. 4. And finally, a duel. A lot of duels. Any reason: a daring look, an inappropriate joke, a disrespectful touch of the edge of clothing, etc. In principle, it is possible to chop on axes, but it is difficult and inconvenient to carry them with you all the time.

[Misantrop]

Quote: OldRed

All weapons were made for specific conditions of use.

Exactly. This is more of a ritual weapon than a battle weapon. Hence - high quality workmanship and finish, which is absolutely redundant on the real combat weapons. In the course that the ordinary touch of the blade with a finger is categorically not allowed. Since it leaves a mark on it, almost instantly in the Japanese climate turning into rust. And the fact that it understands parts faster than the AK-47, it is enough to remove one (!) Transverse pin. Despite the fact that this is a stabbing and cutting weapon (i.e., this single pin with a diameter of 4 mm has an ALL load). And is this a weapon for WAR? Do not make me laugh. Compared to katana, the American M-16 is an example of all-weather and unpretentiousness

[Cat]

Quote: Misantrop

This is more of a ritual weapon than a battle weapon. Hence the high quality of workmanship and decoration, which is absolutely redundant on real military weapons. In the course that the ordinary touch of the blade with a finger is categorically not allowed. Since it leaves a mark on it, almost instantly in the Japanese climate

I once read that the high quality finish of Japanese weapons is not so much a show off, but an urgent need, caused by the low quality of the metal. In the sense that with all sorts of blacksmith tricks it was possible to increase the hardness and elasticity of the metal, but to replace the absence of alloying additives - alas ... As you know, rust clings to a polished surface much worse than to a rough one, and removing it is much easier - So the samurai fired their swords to a mirror shine. Otherwise, even an expensive blade made by a noble master turned into a clumsy rust piece of iron in a short time. The prohibition to touch the weapon without the need fits perfectly into the same logic.
I do not know how this information corresponds to the truth ... but it seems very true.

[Seryoga D.]

Quote: old man54

Quote: We refund_SSSR

They would not try to oppose anything to the Maltese latnik in full armor with a halberd and not one, but a tight formation, and even with horse detachments.
Or chain mail of Russian knights and cavalry .. And on the left hand sews! In the right flail or slander - and goodbye samurai in paper armor ...

laughed about the Soul! :) Yes, they would easily have resisted, especially the Maltese and European sedentary idol, chained in iron! You easily dodged his slow and heavy sword, walked in from behind / from the side, hit him with his leg, he fell to the ground, and those "knights" themselves could stand up with failed work, and would have stabbed him between the armor. well, or a cyst of hands would cut off mu. while he is setting up and preparing for a strike. That's all for a short time. All this bravado is on the branch from ignorance of the true capabilities of the samurai and their fighting technique.
And the armor of samurai from specially made leather of bulls and buffaloes will probably be more effective for our calculators, and there’s nothing to say against arrows! And under the blow you can not substitute!

Each nation had professionals in their field, and I don’t think it’s so easy to judge who is the best here, a dandy or a samurai.

[Goblin 28]

About Japanese and European armor and weapons. There is a rather interesting cycle of programs where Americans compare different warriors of different eras, comparing their weapons, armor, skills and styles of fencing with the use of computers, dummies and other modern gizmos. So, comparing a ninja and a Spartan warrior, the Japanese outright lost to the Greek with his bronze and copper weapons. And if it was a Russian warrior or a Teuton in full armor? Katana is exotic and fancy, nothing more. An effective weapon instantly spreads around the world, which cannot be said about the katana.

[WW3]

Naturally, if we assume a clash between two “typical warriors”, we must also ask ourselves what is meant by the word “typical”? The knight of the period of about 1100 and the samurai of the period of about 1200 were equipped approximately the same. But the same warriors in the period of the 1400s already had significant differences. Each of the two historical warriors in question really fought using similar technologies, in a similar climate, in a similar area, and for similar reasons. But it is difficult to consider them as a “knight” characteristic of Europe and a “standard” Japanese samurai. In relation to the European knight, it is difficult to determine nationality, as well as what type of warrior and from which part of the Middle Ages to consider. In the case of a samurai. nevertheless, we are dealing with one fairly homogeneous culture and one version of each type of historical martial arts that has been preserved in one form or another with virtually no change. Thus, we have, to some extent, a better idea of ​​the average level of training and the capabilities of the samurai in comparison with the modern European knight.
Further, can we accept that the knight will be dressed in Norman chain mail with a sword and a drop-shaped shield, who came to us from 1066? An English or French Chevalier in partially plate armor with a welded Damascus sword with a cross guard, ready for battle in a champion fence? Or will it be an Italian mercenary from 1450 sparkling in all regalia? Or is a Teutonic knight from 1400 chained from head to toe in Gothic articulated plate armor with a half-handed sword?
Will the samurai be dressed in box armor from the Muromachi period and armed with a tachi sword? Or will he be wearing more tight-fitting armor before the Kamara period of the Maru and armed with a more familiar katana? Would the samurai be allowed to use the short wakizashi sword with the long katana in the latter case? For the above reasons, the question “who will win” or “whose equipment is better” remains unanswered.

http://www.popmech.ru/blogs/post/1810-samuray-protiv-evropeyskogo-ryitsarya/

[LINX]

Katana has never been a weapon of war. Its main purpose is to pierce the belly after sake to another samurai or punish a servant, that is, this dueling / status weapon and with all the external gloss has a low combat value. It’s not just that you cut armor with a katana, you could not breathe on it only constantly grind / polish and oil it. It is generally inappropriate to compare with European combat weapons hardened in real battles.

Despite the fact that I do not say that the armor or military weapons of the samurai was bad - it's just not about katana, they fought with other weapons)

[Snoop]

saber ... katana ... wings ... legs ... good old Colt

[Misantrop]

In this thread, they wrote a lot about the Caucasian roots of the Cossack checker and about it, in this regard, extreme thoughtfulness. I will not argue with this, I’m interested in something else, where does the Caucasian dagger come from with this particular type of hilt? For what it was created, because to hold it with a normal grip, it is extremely inconvenient ... Many asked this question, but did not receive an answer. Maybe even lucky here?

[Kir]

Yes, they somehow showed on "My Planet", in general, it turns out that the grip is like that of knives of the butt-type, the pommel in the palm of the hand, etc.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Kir

grip like knives of tychkovy type, tops in a palm well, etc.

Is this scrap up to half a meter long? Yes, and the tops of several of them that fell into the hands are not very comfortable for the palm ... Solid misunderstandings ... Maybe he was supposed to be wound to a stick to make something like a spear?

[Goblin 28]

Sincere stormy and prolonged applause !!! Rolling in applause !!! The best, in my subjective opinion, comment! We Russians may be accustomed to AK, but Colt is also not bad!

[Mista_dj]

kg / am
Article by nothing!

[bbss]

Several years ago, with enthusiasm, he collected a collection of editions of the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg. Superbly published books on military-historical subjects. I read some hard, some went pretty hard. These include a collection of the work of Russian Military Agents (an analogue of modern military attachés) abroad. In addition to military-diplomatic tasks, their task included the task of t.s. obtaining military secrets, weapons technology, and actually samples of weapons, ammunition.
Including (this is in relation to the topic of the article) after the Crimean War, the question arose of unifying cold cavalry weapons and choosing the best sample from a wide variety of drafts of various types, sabers, broadswords, etc. Collisions with British cavalry showed the shortcomings of the above samples and the superiority of British blades . A lot of work has been done by Russian military agents in Britain. Purchased in decent quantities of blades (new and used). Everything was delivered to Russia where it fell into the hands of scientists. Based on the materials received, a modernization of the Russian drafts was carried out, which was put into service with the cavalry of the Russian Army in 1881.

At the moment I am away from home. I'll be back from vacation and can give an exact link to the source.
Found on the internet: Ilyina T.N. Military agents and Russian weapons. St. Petersburg: Atlant, 2008.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Sveik

Other katanas forged for months, or even years.

Exactly what THE OTHERS are, there is no less consumer goods than ours, we don’t need to exalt them all in bulk ...

[Misantrop]

Moreover, consumer goods are not only a modern concept. I recently came across a restoration of a riton found during excavations in Chersonesos. So, if I hadn’t known for sure that the second thousand years went to this subject ... golemir consumer goods, it’s done so hard ...

[NEXUS]

good night gentlemen and comrades ... the article is very scarce and uninformative, and also somewhat incorrect ... I will explain why ... firstly, katana is a more universal weapon, since it can be used as a two-handed weapon or a weapon one hand, unlike a checker ... secondly, the mass of blades ... thirdly, the time of grabbing and applying the blade (the checker has better time because the handle was not towards the Cossack, but outward, etc. the sting of the checker was bent not back, but forward) ... both blades are chopping, but the checker can also be fused, which is not very convenient with a katana ... in scrap, experts conclude that effective katana sword that does not beg the merits of the Japanese sword ...

[consumer]

10 Russian soldiers captured 6000 Japanese during the war.
Russian Cossacks guarded by hiring a Japanese Mikado.
3 Cossack plastun in a battle with 27 German cavalry, lay down 24, with a score of 12XKuznetsov. the rest are 6. and 3 Germans rode off)))))
100 Amur Cossacks asked the king to let them go to conquer China.
look at what the younger Kadochnnikov does with a checker and watch films about flying samurai.
and warriors such as A. Lavrov, are several hundred Japanese samurai
a total of 1 esaul from the plastunas is characteristic, against 30 samurai, without a firearm, only blades and poisoned matches, 8 to 2. I put on our

[atalef]

Quote: consumer

look at what the younger Kadochnnikov does with a checker and watch films about flying samurai.

Quote: consumer

and warriors such as A. Lavrov, are several hundred Japanese samurai
a total of 1 esaul from the plastunas is characteristic, against 30 samurai, without a firearm, only blades and poisoned matches, 8 to 2. I put on our

All of them are complete bullshit next to the Batmen, Spiderman, and Charlie's Angels defeat the Plastoons with a score of 16890 for one
I don’t remember who said - the country is waiting for heroes .... gives birth to ...

[consumer]

ours return with CHECKERS head to head. half of Sakhalin, the Japanese with KATAN is not visible)))))
http://www.mamonton-projekt.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%

B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B

E-%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B

D%D0%B0%D0%BC-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%B2%D0%B

B%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8.jpg

[Kir]

U how you sorted it out, All the same, a weapon implies common sense, and you .....
Dear Please Do not dishonor the Cossacks !!!

[consumer]

now we clearly and argue, a claim is made, arguing clearly and remember this is not about the Cossacks, as a social unit. and the difference between checkers and katana.
probably combat characteristics. should the examiner, once the speech and children of knives. accordingly, the mastery of these blades. story to help. give the facts. and argue your emotional outburst

[Kir]

Well, firstly, you didn’t go over to it, and not Splash but hostility towards those who behave in such a way substituting the Real Cossacks, by the way, in the pedigree I have Cossack roots from Mother’s Siberia, so ......
This is one other thing, and in all your remarks where there is actually a comparison of the Technique of possession and the Characteristics of weapons, Plus an obvious substitution Plastuny forgive Who? Could anyone be that? But Samurai is an estate like the Cossacks, so compare the similar.

[consumer]

now in turn. given punctuation marks.))))

Quote: Kir

Well, firstly, you did not go

already the second message and no argumentation. and what, to call "the sweetest"? ))) thank you

Quote: Kir

and not Splash but hostility towards those who behave this way substituting in this way the Real Cossacks

in this phrase there are 2 meanings, therefore, first about emotions. it’s not important anymore a surge of emotion or an experience of emotion of hostility ..... one emotion and zero arguments) 000)))
and the Real Cossacks. Is that what you think?
in mine, this is exactly the Cossacks. in which the checker weapon discussed by us was created.)))) Siberia flies, we continue with all due respect to hunters and shepherds of peaceful wild peoples. (without remarks about the wild, Kazakhs! everything is known in comparison)

Quote: Kir

by the way, in the pedigree I have Cossack roots from Mother’s Siberia, so ......

can be left without comments. But you can teach the mat part.
1824-1847 - Siberian Cossacks fought the uprising of the Kyrgyz led by Kenesary Kasymov.

[consumer]

1833, January 31 (senior article) - 30 Siberian line Cossacks were approved to serve in the Life Guards Horse Grenadier Regiment (the service lasted 48 years until 1881)


1860-1861 - Siberian Cossacks participated in “affairs” with Kokandis and Kyrgyz at Uzun-Agach, Pishpek, Tokmak, etc.

1863 and 1865 - Siberian Cossacks were in the detachment of Chernyaev and participated in the capture of Tashkent, Chimkent, Turkestan and Aulie-Ata.
1864 - Siberian Cossacks participated in a clash with the Chinese at Borokhudzir.

1873 - Siberian Cossacks participated in the Khiva campaign.
1875 - Siberian Cossacks participated “in affairs” against the Kokandans under Hake-Khovat and the storm of Andijan.

1880 - the law on military service was approved. In peacetime, Siberian Cossacks were obliged to give 3 cavalry six-hundred regiments to the “sovereign service” and 9 such regiments in wartime.
1880-1882 - participation of the 1st Cossack regiment in the Kuldzhin campaign and occupation of the Ili Valley.

Siberian Cossack regiments 4, 5, 7, and 8 as part of the Siberian Cossack Division participated in a campaign in Manchuria, but were not involved in the cessation of hostilities

1904-1905 - Siberian Cossack regiments 4, 5, 7 and 8 took part in the Russo-Japanese War.

1914, July 31 (senior article) - a riot of Cossacks 4 and 7 of the Siberian Cossack regiments in a mobilization camp near Kokchetav, provoked by the brutality of one of the officers. 8 rioters were shot, 20 were sentenced to various terms of hard labor.

December 21 (senior) - The 1st Siberian Cossack Ermak Timofeevich regiment with a horse attack defeated the 8th Turkish infantry regiment and captured its banner.

[consumer]

now in turn. given punctuation marks.))))

Quote: Kir

Well, firstly, you did not go

already the second message and no argumentation. and what, to call "the sweetest"? ))) thank you

Quote: Kir

and not Splash but hostility towards those who behave this way substituting in this way the Real Cossacks

in this phrase there are 2 meanings, therefore, first about emotions. it’s not important anymore a surge of emotion or an experience of emotion of hostility ..... one emotion and zero arguments) 000)))
and the Real Cossacks. Is that what you think?
in mine, this is exactly the Cossacks. in which the checker weapon discussed by us was created.)))) Siberia flies, we continue with all due respect to hunters and shepherds of peaceful wild peoples. (without remarks about the wild, Kazakhs! everything is known in comparison)

Quote: Kir

by the way, in the pedigree I have Cossack roots from Mother’s Siberia, so ......

can be left without comments. But you can teach the mat part.
1824-1847 - Siberian Cossacks fought the uprising of the Kyrgyz led by Kenesary Kasymov.


1833, January 31 (senior article) - 30 Siberian line Cossacks were approved to serve in the Life Guards Horse Grenadier Regiment (the service lasted 48 years until 1881)


1860-1861 - Siberian Cossacks participated in “affairs” with Kokandis and Kyrgyz at Uzun-Agach, Pishpek, Tokmak, etc.

1863 and 1865 - Siberian Cossacks were in the detachment of Chernyaev and participated in the capture of Tashkent, Chimkent, Turkestan and Aulie-Ata.
1864 - Siberian Cossacks participated in a clash with the Chinese at Borokhudzir.

1873 - Siberian Cossacks participated in the Khiva campaign.
1875 - Siberian Cossacks participated “in affairs” against the Kokandans under Hake-Khovat and the storm of Andijan.

1880 - the law on military service was approved. In peacetime, Siberian Cossacks were obliged to give 3 cavalry six-hundred regiments to the “sovereign service” and 9 such regiments in wartime.
1880-1882 - participation of the 1st Cossack regiment in the Kuldzhin campaign and occupation of the Ili Valley.

Siberian Cossack regiments 4, 5, 7, and 8 as part of the Siberian Cossack Division participated in a campaign in Manchuria, but were not involved in the cessation of hostilities

1904-1905 - Siberian Cossack regiments 4, 5, 7 and 8 took part in the Russo-Japanese War.

1914, July 31 (senior article) - a riot of Cossacks 4 and 7 of the Siberian Cossack regiments in a mobilization camp near Kokchetav, provoked by the brutality of one of the officers. 8 rioters were shot, 20 were sentenced to various terms of hard labor.

[consumer]

December 21 (senior) - The 1st Siberian Cossack Ermak Timofeevich regiment with a horse attack defeated the 8th Turkish infantry regiment and captured its banner.

THESE ARE ALL THE BATTLE ACTIONS OF THE SIBERIAN COSSACKS, populated the territory, but there was no accumulation of combat experience. not a hundred with drafts on tanks)))) under the guise of artillery naturally.

Quote: Kir

This is one other thing, and in all your cues where there is actually a comparison of the Technique of possession and the Characteristics of weapons

further I quote myself and demand historical examples from the samurai side

Quote: consumer

10 Russian soldiers captured 6000 Japanese during the war.
Russian Cossacks guarded by hiring a Japanese Mikado.
3 Cossack plastun in a battle with 27 German cavalry, lay down 24, with a score of 12XKuznetsov. the rest are 6. and 3 Germans rode off)))))
100 Amur Cossacks asked the king to let them go to conquer China.
look at what the younger Kadochnnikov does with a checker and watch films about flying samurai.
and warriors such as A. Lavrov, are several hundred Japanese samurai
a total of 1 esaul from the plastunas is characteristic, against 30 samurai, without a firearm, only blades and poisoned matches, 8 to 2. I put on our

Bring AT LEAST ONE HISTORICAL EXAMPLE THAT KATANA WHICH EXCEEDS THE CHECK!

Quote: Kir

Plastuns sorry Who? Could anyone be that?

what is the question? then why. when the answer is obvious, the plastuner is a Cossack, not the one who has no horse, but the one who is a hundred kilometers behind the front line, the one who from the three-line "crunch" can shoot. in the eye of a wild boar running in the reeds, who is one in 12 on having a firearm comes out the winner. this ninja anyone can become ...... yadu only smear on an arrow and mythologize history.

Quote: Kir

But Samurai is an estate like the Cossacks, so compare the similar.

samurai class +++ nobles like, passed on experience, would have known more, would have known that the princes of the Golitsins had their own fighting style, and who knew him except the Galitsins, well, then, and the Cossacks
we’ll save it
"Until the end of the 19th century, the Cossacks were replenished with Siberian peasants, soldiers' children, exiled Cossacks and volunteers from among the Bashkirs, Meshcheryaks and Don Cossacks who temporarily served in Siberia. On August 1808, XNUMX, the new Cossacks of southern Siberia received the official name of the Siberian Linear Cossack Army."
No. In the 30-50s. XIX century. The Siberian Cossack army spread to the south and southeast and was replenished with immigrants. In 1867 the Semirechenskoe Cossack Host was separated from it "
"The Cossack population - 172 thousand people - was heterogeneous in national (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Mordovians, Tatars, etc.) and social relations. The army was divided into 3 departments (a total of 1083 Cossack settlements) and exhibited in n"

farther? In the Cossacks there were estates of merchants and warriors, farmers and hunters, this is not an estate, what is the connection with the samurai?

now without hysterics and clearly argue, otherwise ignore in life "dear"

[consumer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNrNINkSatI
how many trained samurai could these 500 people chop out of order and without armor?

[consumer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdHWaXsrOw&noredirect=1 и это посмотрите