Ministry of Defense refuses to "Lynx"?

One of the most controversial themes of recent times was the contract of the Russian Ministry of Defense with the Italian company Iveco, according to which Iveco LMV armored cars were to appear in our armed forces. Armored cars entered service under the new name "Lynx" and dispersed in combat units. However, the signing of the contract did not put an end to numerous disputes. This agreement still has many opponents and the last news can please them.

The other day the Rosinformbyuro news agency, citing an unnamed source in the defense industry, spoke about the further fate of Italian-Russian armored cars. According to this source, a few days ago the order of the Minister of Defense was canceled, according to which the “Lynx” vehicles were put into service. Thus, the Russian military department abandoned the promising and necessary armored car, as it was claimed at the time. The source Rosinformbyuro did not clarify the reasons for such a decision, nor did he name the further fate of the machines purchased and built. It is worth noting that the Ministry of Defense has not yet commented on the news. Combined with the anonymity of the source, this raises certain questions.

Nevertheless, despite all the possible questions, the information about abandoning the “Lynx” may look plausible, because a few months ago the command of the ground forces spoke about their plans for the further operation of armored vehicles of joint Italian-Russian production. In January, Colonel-General V. Chirkin, Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces, announced that the Ministry of Defense would fulfill all its obligations under the existing contract and purchase the LMN / “Lynx” armored vehicles envisaged for them by 1775. However, after the completion of deliveries, the contract will not be extended and the purchase of additional 1200 vehicles will not take place. As a basis for refusing an additional contract, Chirkin cited some characteristics of an armored car that were not sufficient for operation in the Russian armed forces.

It is also worth recalling that, speaking of the characteristics of “Lynx”, the commander-in-chief of the ground forces mentioned the development of a new domestic armored vehicle currently underway, which will be deprived of these shortcomings. It is possible that the project, whose name was not mentioned, was one of the main reasons for the current decision of the Ministry of Defense. Unless, of course, the source Rosinformbyuro was right and the armored car LMV / “Lynx” will really be removed from service.

History with the Italian armored cars for the Russian army began in the 2009 year and immediately became a subject of discussion. Within a few months, Rostekhnologii purchased several ready-made machines and assembly kits that were used for testing at Russian landfills. The test results were found to be satisfactory, and in June 2010 of the year, then Defense Minister A. Serdyukov signed the allegedly annulled order, according to which the Italian armored car was put into service. The next year, 2011, Russia and Italy agreed to jointly manufacture machines for our armed forces at the plant in Voronezh. Throughout all the stages of testing and negotiation, various figures appeared in the statements of the parties, but in the end the Russian Ministry of Defense decided on its needs. According to the contract with the Italian company Iveco, it was required to deliver 1775 armored cars. About 1200 could be ordered further.

To date, the Russian armed forces have received less than a hundred Lynx armored vehicles. Earlier it was said that in the coming years, the military will receive the first large series of 358 machines and in the future their construction will follow the same principle. However, in the light of recent reports, the production of not only 1775 armored vehicles ordered, but also the first series of three and a half hundreds is under question.

If the information about the decommissioning of the armored vehicles “Lynx” is confirmed, this fact can be considered a confirmation of the popular version of using Italian equipment as a temporary measure for equipping the ground forces in anticipation of their own similar projects. It is worth noting that cooperation with Italian manufacturers spurred Russian. So, in the near future, several new Russian-made armored vehicles, which are not inferior to the Iveco LMV / “Lynx” in the level of protection, should go on trials at once. However, it will take time to fine-tune the new machines and launching their mass production, and the “Lynx” is already there.

Anyway, information about the refusal of the Italian armored vehicles assembled in Russia has not yet been confirmed by official sources. Therefore, it may well turn out that we are now dealing with a banal newspaper duck or another “round” of undercover games, the purpose of which are contracts for the supply of equipment.


On the materials of the sites:
http://rosinform.ru/
http://itar-tass.com/
http://ria.ru/
http://lenta.ru/

Comments

[Ruslan67]

If you cannot get rid of the contracts, they will send them to the riot police somewhere in the south and close this topic

[Hammer]

Let them find use ... they will not be without household.

To be honest, this topic with Iveco has already gotten a sore throat ... they either accept, either accept or withdraw from service. They would have already decided, otherwise it irritates them back and forth ...
And when the practice in Russia ends, that the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

[Ruslan67]

Quote: Hammer

And when the practice in Russia ends, that the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

Yes never Without the king we can only in one case, in the head

[NUT]

Quote: Hammer

And when the practice in Russia ends, that the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

They said (I don't know whether or not) that when the first Emka was presented to Stalin, it had a two-door body. Stalin sat down in front (next to the driver) and invited Lipgart and Voroshilov to also get into this car (in the back seat) ...
Five days later, Stalin was presented the same car, but with a four-door body ...
By the way, in the same way, you can as soon as possible improve the TTD and strengthen the armor protection of domestic armored vehicles;)

[Vovka levka]

Quote: NUT

Quote: Hammer

And when the practice in Russia ends, that the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

They said (I don't know whether or not) that when the first Emka was presented to Stalin, it had a two-door body. Stalin sat down in front (next to the driver) and invited Lipgart and Voroshilov to also get into this car (in the back seat) ...
Five days later, Stalin was presented the same car, but with a four-door body ...
By the way, in the same way, you can as soon as possible improve the TTD and strengthen the armor protection of domestic armored vehicles;)

Great idea.
Plant a car and take people into service and, for example, check whether the mine protection is adequate by hitting a mine, or detonating a land mine.
Corresponds: according to the order on the chest, no: there is nothing to take into service, and as the saying goes, "Rest in peace."
This is of course a joke, but it makes some sense.

[maxvet]

Remember the film "The Tale of How Tsar Peter Got Married" —there is a moment when Peter forced an industrialist to shoot from his cannon with a third charge of gunpowder, or made the owner of the shipyard hold a ball in a ship he built, and during the ball he launched him ...

[Airman]

Quote: NUT

Quote: Hammer

And when the practice in Russia ends, that the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

They said (I don't know whether or not) that when the first Emka was presented to Stalin, it had a two-door body. Stalin sat down in front (next to the driver) and invited Lipgart and Voroshilov to also get into this car (in the back seat) ...
Five days later, Stalin was presented the same car, but with a four-door body ...
By the way, in the same way, you can as soon as possible improve the TTD and strengthen the armor protection of domestic armored vehicles;)

By blowing up a mine, and inside the body should be the creators. They will survive, take them into service. Then the responsibility for the created equipment will increase by 100 times.

[Denis]

Quote: NUT

They said (I don't know whether or not) that when the first Emka was presented to Stalin, it had a two-door body. Stalin sat down in front (next to the driver) and invited Lipgart and Voroshilov to also get into this car (in the back seat) ...
Five days later, Stalin was presented the same car, but with a four-door body ...

There is the same story about the armored VMS, as if they were obsessed with the designers inside

[dustycat]

For a third of the cost of IVECO / Lynx, you can blaze the UAZ31512 to the same level.
In addition, the dignity of "well-protected brake discs" connected to the wheel by a shaft is of great doubt. The axle of the rear axle of the UAZ still needs to be able to get through the bridge stocking, while from the SVD you can easily interrupt the same bare IVECO / Lynx axle. In addition, the experience of the mine war in Chechnya shows that even an explosion on a land mine does not break the bridge and axle shafts of the UAZ. Therefore, the UAZ handbrake will still work. While detonation even on an infantry mine cuts off the drive shaft of the IVECO / Lynx wheel and all the hoses of its brake system. And she does not have a handbrake working on the cardan.

Besides. In IVECO / Lynx, windows do not open as well as in UAZ. Although armored UAZs with a loophole in the doors are produced, but IVECO / Lynx are not. Add to this a "basket" for catching IEDs and grenades on the roof of IVECO / Lynx.
What remains to the crew in IVECO / Lynx under heavy fire?
Just spit in the bulletproof glass and wait for an IED or a grenade to be thrown into the "basket" or heroically crawl out from behind the armor under circular fire to prevent this.

[Lopatov]

UAZ will not work. Mine protection cannot be established there in principle. But to replace armored UAZ "Tigers" is easy.

Quote: dustycat

In addition, the experience of a mine war in Chechnya shows that even a blast in a land mine does not break the bridge and half-axles of the UAZ

What about the crew? You must understand that such light vehicles can be protected from the energy of an explosion using only controlled destruction.

[old man54]

Quote: dustycat

Just spit in the bulletproof glass and wait for an IED or a grenade to be thrown into the "basket" or heroically crawl out from behind the armor under circular fire to prevent this.

a wonderful, balanced, emotionless comment! Thanks! It is immediately clear that the person is in the subject, and not "uuurya!")

[Ezhaak]

Quote: Hammer

the adoption of any serious question will cease to be the whim of one person ...

So it has always been. It always will. Are you hoping to be asked personally of you? Who are you? Just like me and like us. Do Duma members, when passing laws, ask our opinion? They don't give a damn about it. Likewise, in other countries of the world, including the stronghold of the world's crap!

[Siberian German]

If the information on the withdrawal from service of the Lynx armored cars is confirmed, this fact can be considered confirmation of the popular version about the use of Italian equipment as a temporary measure to equip the ground forces in anticipation of their own similar projects. It is worth noting that cooperation with Italian manufacturers spurred Russian ones. So, in the near future, several new Russian-made armored vehicles, not inferior to the Iveco LMV / Lynx in the level of protection, should go for testing immediately, I fully agree, but the fact that our manufacturers have moved a big plus

[dustycat]

This is a purely "kickback" project.
Long before the birth of this nonsense, their cars superior to IVECO / Lynx were presented.

[Lopatov]

Quote: dustycat

Long before the birth of this nonsense, their cars superior to IVECO / Lynx were presented.

Our only car that almost came close to the "Lynx" in terms of mine protection appeared after the signing of the contract.

Quote: dustycat

This is a purely "kickback" project.

And who was rolling back to whom? Berlusconi to Putin or Putin to Berlusconi?

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

And who was rolling back to whom? Berlusconi to Putin or Putin to Berlusconi?

Concern "Iveco" to our MO and, first of all, to sirbyukov !! Or do you see it differently?
Therefore, the price tag is higher than their "market" value, although it is clear to the novice sales manager that with SUCH WHOLESALE PURCHASES a significant discount should be given !! But in Russia, everything is the other way around!

And yet ... and you are not embarrassed that with all the super-duper innovations of Iveco / Lynx and the use in its production of the engineering and technical achievements of the leading NATO countries (Germany - armor; USA - engine), neither the United States nor NATO even tried to resist this the contract at its conclusion ???? But they tried to hinder the sale of the same famous UDC like "Mistal", and even so, that it got into the open media. So maybe NATO and the United States even benefited from this contract, huh? :)) In view of the prospective weakening of our army through it? What do you think?

[Lopatov]

Quote: old man54

Concern "Iveco" to our MO and, first of all, to sirbyukov !! Or do you see it differently?

Of course in a different way. National Leader Putin decided to help his friend Berlusconi, then head of the Italian government. And as soon as the latter "left", the lobbyists from Deripaska immediately began to push for the replacement of "Lynx" with their guano called "Tiger". Not unsuccessfully.

Quote: old man54

Therefore, the price tag is higher than their "market" value

No need to compose.
Cars purchased from the Italian conveyor for testing cost the same as for everyone else, plus a sickly Russian customs duty. (You remember that the native TAZ producers sold protective duties on cars so as not to engage in bringing their minds to life)

The ones supplied to the troops are more expensive due to the domestic assembly. Car kits cost the same as for others, but our bugs are not "novice sales managers, but serious guys who not only included in the final price all the costs of organizing screwdriver assembly and localization of parts of the components, but also actively profit from it.
What is the required location declared Rogozin? 80%? Everything will be included in the cost of vehicles for the troops, for everything the MO will pay.
Maybe that's why they are trying to give up this car? The appetites of the "domestic producer" turn it into gold.

Quote: old man54

In view of the weakening of our army through it, what do you think?

Do you consider the reduction of casualties from landmines to weaken the army? "What is the pike for, so that the crucian does not doze"? How many victims have you seen in your life? Have you seen how pieces of a person are pulled out of the driver's seat and put in a shell capping?

[Vadivak]

Quote: Author Ryabov Kirill

The Russian military department abandoned the promising and necessary, as it was claimed at the time, armored car.

Well, the process has begun, now Shoigu muster his will into a fist and abandon another needed armored car to board the ZIL-4112R, and gain universal respect

[Trofimov174]

Quote: Vadivak

board the ZIL-4112R and gain universal respect

Rather, universal humiliation. This ZIL is nothing more than an attempt to win a tender for the state to buy domestic premium cars, thanks to a hastily glued together project from ZIL-4105 and Chinese optics, to receive money and hit the whole administrative building of the Likhachev plant in Hawaii. Oh, let him ride so far on solid, albeit German, technology, until the domestic auto industry gives birth to a truly worthy replacement.

[jeezar]

Why do they need it in Hawaii? In my opinion, they feel good here too ...

[nelson]

Oh, let him ride so far on solid, albeit German, technology, until the domestic auto industry gives birth to a truly worthy replacement. Riding top officials in imported cars is the first sign of a banana republic. At least for the prestige of the country, our dearly beloved auto industry could win a couple of other masterpieces. But let the know-how be taken at least from aviation or air defense.

[Trofimov174]

Quote: nelson

Riding top officials in imported cars is the first sign of a banana republic

Do not exaggerate. The presence of the president / prime minister / chancellor of a domestic fleet is a sign of the developed automotive industry of his country. Only. In the world, if I’m not mistaken, only 7 countries have presidents driving domestic cars. Are all the other 188 countries banana republics?

[Denis]

Quote: nelson

for the prestige of the country, our beloved auto industry could win a couple of other masterpieces

Here you recall the often scolded Leonid Ilyich. He loved cars and had a lot of them, but so that when he represented the country in a foreign car ...
ZILs were reliable, the backup seems to be only used once

[Yazov]

Can the Minister of Defense be put on UAZ? Adults are all people, but you carry it is not clear what. And who thought about security? Then let's get him right on the armored personnel carrier and that’s it, just like a real M.O. will be!

[Airman]

Quote: Yazov

Can the Minister of Defense be put on UAZ? Adults are all people, but you carry it is not clear what. And who thought about security? Then let's get him right on the armored personnel carrier and that’s it, just like a real M.O. will be!

A better tank, and emergency lights are not needed.

[dustycat]

There were no overturned ZIL 1114.
And there were representative Mercs and Lincoln.
Which is safer?
True dual ZiL1114 carburetor is still trouble.

[Yazov]

And I remember in the 90s, 2 RPG grenades fell into the Mersey Shevarnadze, after which he dumped another 5 km on the rims. And you're talking about coups. Let him ride on what the security service allows. Yes, even on the tank. The T-90 model is untwisted, and can withstand more shots from RPGs.

[experienced]

Isn't this the answer of our President to the recent "seven", which was brought to trial in Italy for Berlusconi's friend? Indeed, many were inclined to believe that the Iveco supply agreement was based on personal agreements.

[755962]

"This was all started under the previous leadership of the Ministry of Defense, and we, you yourself understand, to keep the brand of a good customer, in fact, we fulfill the terms of that contract. I think we will be forced to culturally refuse ", - Vladimir Chirkin explained.

Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces Colonel General

That is, correctly send to ....

[Geisenberg]

Quote: Ruslan67

If you cannot get rid of the contracts, they will send them to the riot police somewhere in the south and close this topic

Read the contract. Surely there is a paragraph on product quality for which you can wrap all the remaining machines for revision. Then, based on the results of refinement, one more time, and for a guarantee, Iveco himself will also terminate the contract, tinker with the fine-tuning of 5 years and understand what it was necessary to think before concluding contracts under a rollback.

[dustycat]

Not fit IVECO / Lynx for the army.
The engine and its parts are prohibited for delivery to Russia.
How to fix them? Is it just a replacement for Shteyr540 aka ZMZ540.
That's just its power is three times less.
But Russia does not have a licensed analogue.

[Pimply]

That is why dozens of cars have already been assembled. Forbidden. Wonderful. Show the proof?

[old man54]

Quote: dustycat

Not fit IVECO / Lynx for the army.
The engine and its parts are prohibited for delivery to Russia.
How to fix them?

OOOO, since this contract is pure wrecking, there is no need to even conduct a serious investigation, 3s are enough for its authors! Again, I regret that it is not 37 year with us!: (((

[Slavs69]

"If they can't get rid of the contracts, they will send them to the riot police somewhere in the south and close this topic."
And why are they needed? In Khankala, just wander around, help-pieces of paper to take?

[cth; fyn]

If you cannot get rid of the contracts, they will send them to the riot police somewhere in the south and close this topic

Or pay a penalty for the failure of the contract.

[woland05]

In the south, the Tigers are doing great ...

[Basileus]

The main advantage of Iveco is its mine protection, which the Tigers do not possess. Given how much shit has already been poured on Lynx, removing it from service under the pretext of developing a domestic machine is a populist measure rather than meeting the goals of the Armed Forces. Now such machines are needed, so it would be good to fulfill the contract and close the question. And there, perhaps, his own car will catch up.

[Vovka levka]

Quote: Basileus

The main advantage of Iveco is its mine protection, which the Tigers do not possess.

What about patriotism? True, these "patriots" do not fight with this technique and do not fall on mines. And what about the soldiers and officers? The breakaway human life is valued began.

[poquello]

"The main advantage of Iveco is mine protection, which the Tigers do not have. Considering how much shit has already been poured on the Lynx, removing it from service under the pretext of developing a domestic machine is a measure rather populist than meeting the goals of the Armed Forces."

3rd class of protection (according to GOST) for the "Tiger" and "Tiger M" was determined in the terms of reference by the military department,
for the saved 11 million you can buy a radio tape recorder and fix the reservation

[Pimply]

Yeah. Whose MO? United Arab Emirates?

Quote: poquello

for the saved 11 million you can buy a radio tape recorder and fix the reservation

Could you? 6A never came out

[poquello]

[quote = poquello] for the saved 11 million you can buy a radio tape recorder and fix your reservation [/ quote]
Could you? 6A never came out [/ quote]

But the question is not worth it. When it comes to the fact that a really good car from our manufacturer will cost good money and the task will be this, the topic of imported equipment will fall off.
In the meantime, as usual - slowly, cheaply and angrily.

[dustycat]

RF Ministry of Defense and BMP3 for the same money buys without telovizorov and KAZ that the UAE, but with a thermal imager and KAZ.
If you want protection - pay money. Otherwise, they will travel to the UAE with a protection level of 6A.

There was no and no order in TK for the protection of 6A from the RF Ministry of Defense.
From the Tiger, you can shoot without opening the door from Lynx no.
A driver in the Tigris can be pulled from behind the wheel without going outside in Lynx, even from the street, this is not easy.

[Pimply]

Yeah. Have you ever tried to shoot through a loophole?

Yes, there must be orders for everything. That’s a riddle, how in other countries they don’t know about it. It was widely publicized 6A and its testing back in 2011. Where is he?

[poquello]

Duc there, for
dustycat
"There was no order in the TK for the protection of 6A from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation."

Created on an initiative basis.
Circular protection against a shot from an SVD rifle with a 7 mm caliber cartridge 3 mm with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet B-7,62, improved mine protection and special energy-absorbing seats that are not attached to the floor.

[Lopatov]

Quote: poquello

There was no and no order in TK for the protection of 6A from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

But there is from the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Last year, they were supposed to submit subversive tests. But could not until now.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Pimply

Yeah. Have you ever tried to shoot through a loophole?

Minusators obviously did not try.

[Airman]

Quote: Basileus

The main advantage of Iveco is its mine protection, which the Tigers do not possess. Given how much shit has already been poured on Lynx, removing it from service under the pretext of developing a domestic machine is a populist measure rather than meeting the goals of the Armed Forces. Now such machines are needed, so it would be good to fulfill the contract and close the question. And there, perhaps, his own car will catch up.

And you fought on it, that you defend it like that? Let's sit down and detonate a landmine.

[Lopatov]

And you will sit in "Tiger" in that case?

[dustycat]

The mine is usually driven by the front wheel.
The network has a video of the Lynx test for demolition.
Bulletproof glass fly out as well as in the Tiger.
Only in a tiger can one shoot without opening the door, but not from a lynx.
In addition, a 20kg landmine is just as helpless. And weaker ones were not used in Chechnya, Iraq, Israel.
The tiger protects the shahid from 2 kg of the belt no worse (in the UAE it was demanded and the designers did it - by the way, IVECO / Lynx Tiger lost the contest)

[Lopatov]

You are a land mine of 20 kg try to cram into the roadway. To be imperceptible.

[Pimply]

Do not smack nonsense about loopholes. On the same 6A the loopholes were removed. Because they
a) Nafig not needed
b) Make the armored car more vulnerable to undermining. Loopholes are a meaningless thing in such a reserved volume. And not only in it.

[dustycat]

One week after the filing of this claim, the Tiger was presented with appropriate protection. And the Ministry of Internal Affairs Tiger gladly accepted into service with enhanced protection to the level of IVECO. While before the test this requirement was not.
In addition, you can’t shoot back from Lynx without opening the armored doors.
And its engine - has no analogues in Russia, it will not be sold a license. They do not supply or supply spare parts (Law of the Broom).
All Lynxes run only to the engine resource.

A scam with IVECO is a purely recoil project.
To study would be enough and 20 cars.

[Pimply]

Where? There is a Tiger with 3 and 5 armor classes. And not one of them has been strengthened to the mine defense of Iveco. Where did you see Iveco's level there?

[fenix57]

It is high time the "Serdyukov" contracts were canceled.

[nezloy]

I wonder how the generals were going to use these armored cars? Groups of Chechen fighters have always included and include a sniper, a machine gunner, and a Grenade Launcher. For whom the "Iveko" stuffed with soldiers is nothing more than tasty prey. That is, the generals instead of decent armored vehicles imposed self-propelled coffins on their soldiers. The maximum they are suitable for is for the crews of the Private Security Guard and collectors.

[Basileus]

With a 6th class of protection against small arms and mine protection? Indeed, the collectors the most - every day somewhere collectors on a land mine are blown up.

[dustycat]

Do not roll for collectors.
At least you can shoot back from the "cornet" on the UAZ chassis without opening the doors.

[Alex45]

Quote: nezloy

Groups of Chechen fighters have always included and include a sniper, a machine gunner, and a Grenade Launcher. For whom the "Iveko" stuffed with soldiers is nothing more than tasty prey. That is, the generals instead of decent armored vehicles imposed self-propelled coffins on their soldiers.

Good afternoon!
I don’t support the purchase of Iveko, but the troops need such vehicles. Let them bring to mind and buy "Tiger", "Wolf", etc. And at the expense of the threat from grenade launchers, any world analogues of these types of armored vehicles cannot withstand a grenade launcher shot (this is still not a tank).

[Roll]

Just for such Chechen groups, coffins are BMP and BMD, and an armored car with a competent crew is just adapted to destroy such groups.

[chauvinist]

I subscribe to every word.

[dustycat]

Think about how to shoot from IVECO from an ambush.

[Pimply]

You must not shoot from the car. Do you even understand what nonsense you're talking about right now. The task of the armored car is to save the fighters during the first strike and give them the opportunity to regroup. You have seen enough of this car firing at the cinema, right?

[Pimply]

Look at the number of explosions at a military-training institution in the Caucasus, and you’ll understand why such cars are needed.

[dustycat]

After the blasting at the WU (and the WU’s power is higher than the IVECO protection class), shelling from small arms follows.
You cannot shoot from IVECO without opening the door.

[Lopatov]

Dear, you are aware that now RPGs in the world are like dirt. What, damn it, firing from a damaged car? It’s necessary to crawl out. By any means.

[Pimply]

Your mother. Stop watching a bad movie. Go to the army. Finish with theories.

[dustycat]

It is especially interesting when you consider that from IVECO / Lynx you can shoot back only by opening carefully booked doors.
Taking into account the "basket" for IEDs and grenades on the roof of IVECO / Lynx - especially saigas and hares to drive along the Volgograd steppes.

[Pimply]

Do you even imagine how useless the loopholes are, and what nonsense are you talking about about everything else?

[a.hamster55]

Again a link to an unnamed source from the nearest gateway. And by the evening another rebuttal.
Not the media, but the author’s nonsense.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: a.hamster55

Again a link to an unnamed source from the nearest gateway. And by the evening another rebuttal.
Not the media, but the author’s nonsense.

It's from here http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheni
ya /

[Strashila]

This temporary measure cost the state a lot.

[Roll]

Why is it a little expensive? Life of soldiers is more expensive! Iveco is not a bad armored car. And if our Tiger is better in something, then in something is better than Iveco. In general, in the field of the structure of armored cars, we are far behind, even from the Chinese. Here are the Chinese who bought the car kits of our tigers about 5 years ago and a lot of 500 pieces, and no yelling that it is not patriotic, based on the tiger, made their tiger, which is much cooler than ours, the normal course of development, to us, which prevents Iveco’s shortcomings, if they there is? In general, we need to catch up and make shock armored cars, such as a crab, and wheeled tanks and wheeled mortar and artillery armored cars.

[Flanker66]

By the way, what about the prices? If there is information, I would like to compare according to the criterion "price-quality" Iveco and Tiger?

[Lopatov]

They are incomparable, like a hammer and pliers. Different design - different purpose.

[dustycat]

On cross-country IVECO merged the Tiger.
There is no opportunity to shoot back from IVECO without opening the door. The drain is counted.
Spare parts - for IVECO are not allowed for delivery to Russia. Tiger - in any car shop for trucks. The drain is counted.
Mine protection - Iveco provides a complete set, Tiger - was not ordered by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, but what kind of money can be hung - this class of protection has not yet been invented.
The tiger is more in line with counter-guerrilla warfare.
Even if the Tiger is booked to the 6 level, the price is still 20% cheaper.

[Pimply]

And the Tiger holds only 600 g of TNT. What is more important? 6A never showed up. By the way, in the scale model 6A, the number of seats decreased sharply, and the loopholes disappeared. You know.
Where did Iveco merge in the cross? On video, where the car is put in obviously unfavorable conditions, and even with a driver who has not been trained. Here one extreme, a lover of jeeps, Iveco did analysis of jambs on driving - what was found in various ratings and videos. One and a half sheets left.

Quote: dustycat

Even if the Tiger is booked to the 6 level, the price is still 20% cheaper.

And where is this nonsense?

[old man54]

Quote: dustycat

Even if the Tiger is booked to the 6 level, the price is still 20% cheaper.

I am pleased to read your professional comments, thank you! But speaking about the price, you take into account only a possible 20% difference in the final price of the cars, there are also various taxes from the production of the "Tiger" itself or another model (ours), which will go exactly to our, Russian budget, and not to the budget of Italy; loading of our related domestic production of components for "Tiger"; again, taxes from these areas to the Russian budget; jobs, employment and salary of workers in our enterprises; the work of our design bureaus and the development of our engineering, its progress! It is difficult to count the percentages of the arguments that I gave, but for this alone, Smerdyukov and his comrades need to arrange 37th year!

[Lopatov]

The only thing left is to find this "Tiger 6A" in a condition ready for delivery to the troops.
But it seems that it is technically impossible to install mine protection on it at the Iveco level.

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

The only thing left is to find this "Tiger 6A" in a condition ready for delivery to the troops.

Forgive me, your name is not indicated in the data, but you seem to think not strategically, not state! You came up against the fact that the Tiger does not hold the mine, and the Lynx type holds and that's it! And all the rest who are not with you, such as bloodthirsty bastards, thirsting for the blood of our Russian soldiers-drivers! And to you here at least one forum member said that we do not need such protection in the armed forces ??? But the majority, it seems to me, thinks wider, globally, strategically, at the state level. If now there is no tikoy protection on domestic cars, then you need to quickly create it and launch it in the pr-in your own car of this class. That's all for a short time!
Here today I read a link from "dustycat", on the thread there is about the Lynx and its tests, so after reading I have big and serious doubts about the reliability of the data on the explosion-proofness of the Lynx and, in general, about its excellent qualities. So that ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: old man54

If now there is no tikoy protection on domestic machines, then you need to quickly create it

Why, may I ask? Why do Deripaska's guys need it? It is easier for him to talk to the right people, to give him his paws, and the army, like a nice little one, will begin to buy Tigers, which are not equipped with protection against landmines.

Men will die on landmines, Deripaska will receive income, stately and strategically thinking sofa "patriots" will be satisfied. Everything, damn it, in business.

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

... strategically minded couch "patriots" will be pleased. Everything, damn it, in business.

N-yes, I thought about you as something better ... Usually, when a person has nothing to say, significant, on the topic, and he goes on insults in a dispute, it’s all about the intellect of this person and his moral qualities, I'm sorry!
But I don’t get into discussions about the mental abilities of the military in the ranks of the Armed Forces, especially a good part of the generals and senior officers, although even from my own experience I could have spoken out so that very many at the forum would have become uncomfortable! I do not evaluate your opinions and thoughts here through the prism of your special military education and the level of your possible position in the armed forces. :)

[NOMADE]

I don't quite know the history of the appearance - Lynx. Was it purchased (and not mediocrely manufactured) at Iveco, or was it manufactured under license in Russia? If the option is the first, then in my opinion it is not entirely justified "temporary" replacement (as they wrote above - expensive). If the second option, then theoretically they could get partly new technologies (constructive, materials, etc.), which would be useful in the creation of already domestic machines.

[Basileus]

We had essentially a localized assembly of finished parts. I don’t think that in this case too many technologies have crossed ours)

[NOMADE]

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if there are any secrets in the technology of manufacturing armor, such as alloy, processing technology, etc., in the production of such armored vehicles? That is, what do we not know?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: NOMADE

I wonder if there are any secrets in the technology of manufacturing armor, such as alloy, processing technology, etc., in the production of such armored vehicles? That is, what do we not know?

Somewhere on the u-tube there is an interview with our manufacturers of armored vehicles. It was said that the 3rd class of protection of the Tigers was indicated in the terms of reference, therefore they received the Defense Ministry with this class. The Ministry of Internal Affairs ordered the Tigers 5th class - and are quite happy with their car. In general, production has everything: from new types of steel to carbon fiber and carbon fiber. But MO under Serdyukov did not order it (more precisely, they wanted maximum protection, but they would pay a penny for it, and no plant would work at a loss).

By the way, the 6th class of defense adopted by NATO is a completely different class compared to ours. For example, if a fighter after the explosion of equipment did not die during the explosion, but, say, after 15 minutes, then the equipment, as it were, has nothing to do with it. In our standards, there are no such clever-assed tricks: if a person suffered from an explosion, then no matter how much time has passed since the explosion.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Bad_gr

By the way, the 6th class of defense adopted by NATO is a completely different class compared to ours.

That's right.
Firstly, they have only five levels.
Secondly, they, unlike us, protection from undermining is required. For example, their 4th level of protection according to STANAG 4569 is not only protection against KPVT round-about (B-32 200m), but also at least 10 kg of explosives under the wheel.

[duke]

Shovels, turn on your head and do not make people laugh, what an imported light machine can withstand a round blow from KPVT !!! Unless it is a 20-30 ton APC. In Ossetia, in 2008, even 12,7 mm bullets pierced through !!! Turkish armored "Cobras" and accordingly destroyed the crews.
Can you even imagine what 10 kg is under the wheel of a light machine? Nobody canceled the laws of physics, heavy BTR-80 explosions of such power were overturned in Chechnya, and you deign to interpret ... it's hard to even communicate with such a specialist, and to argue makes no sense. I understood that according to Lopatov everything is Russian, either bad or very bad ... By the way, the Italians did not allow our Lynxes to be tested for bombing, for shelling, even according to the stated indicators.

[Lopatov]

It’s you, damn it, turn on your head and type in the search engine STANAG 4569

[duke]

The French VBCI armored personnel carrier, as it was stated, had frontal armor, which supposedly holds a 14.5 mm KPVT bullet, but the first samples weighed not 7 tons, like your jeep, but 15 tons - this is a full-fledged armored personnel carrier. However, after running the armored personnel carrier in Afghanistan, for some reason its weight became 28 tons, despite the fact that he still does not hold an RPG grenade. In Somalia, spooks from old DShKs pierced the sides of the Italian "Centauro" patrol wheeled tanks, after which the Italians began to urgently purchase sets of special armor from England and hang them on the sides. Don't make me laugh with your STANAG on Ivek ... how do you protect the windows, forehead, side or stern of a 7-ton jeep-type car from 14.5 mm bullets? The Lynx had problems with bullet protection - a number of places where it was not just weakened, but completely absent. Thus, the body armor panels are separated by a thick rubber seal, and the holes in the front doors through which the mirror adjustment levers pass are not protected at all [7]. But according to Lopatov, this jeep holds the KPVT bullets - well, let him think so, if it warms his heart, but to get into it under the fire of KPVT and even KORD or Pecheneg, I do not advise this experienced specialist.

[Lopatov]

Once again, I wrote about standards, not about specific machines. So your head is better for you to include. If she is

[duke]

Lopatov, tired of your fantasies and unfounded assertions and enough to play around, the article is not about the standards of STANAG, but about the Iveco armored car, especially since the car with your vaunted STANAG was not allowed in Russia to be tested for shelling and detonation. And then your links - "Secondly, they, unlike us, have protection against explosions. For example, their 4th level of protection according to STANAG 4569 is not only round-about protection against KPVT (B-32 200m), but and at least 10 kg of explosives under the wheel. " What kind of car were you, under the wheel of which you can jerk 10 kg? I'm tired of you, let others comment on you. The head that is, but you are already swelling. By the way, it is not clear what caliber bullet you are talking about, but KPVT penetrates the American BTR-M-500 head-on from 113 m.

[Lopatov]

Quote: duke

article is not about STANAG standards

Of course not. And here is my conversation with Bad_gr, in which you got in, namely about them, about standards. Maybe next time you will read the previous posts?

[old man54]

Quote: duke

By the way, the Italians did not allow ours to test their Lynx for undermining, for shelling, even according to the stated indicators.

Great, you "+"
In, I wrote about this above to Lopatov, but he does not want to hear anything! And so it is clear, a clean rollback contract, so it was possible for us to use Fiat instead of an armored vehicle, they would also put it into service.

[Lopatov]

Bet "+" for outright lies?
To your patriotic regret, our specialists tested "Lynx" both by detonation and shelling

[duke]

I thank you, but do not waste time on it, it looks like a mishandled Cossack who pours mud on everything Russian, there are such characters, the bottom has a different homeland, which they dearly love.

[Lopatov]

Well, are you sure that our specialists did not experience "Iveco LMV" by blasting and shelling?
Just wondering, you're lying, or wrong.

And about the "sent Cossack" - you, not me, claim that the income of the oligarchs is more important than the life and health of our soldiers

[duke]

Lopatov is lying and busting. In the period from March 07 to March 12, 2011, together with specialists from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and OJSC KAMAZ, special tests were carried out to determine the protective properties under the influence of damaging factors at German proving grounds in Ulm (ballistic tests) and Schrobenhausen (undermining tests) modern weapons.
The head of the Main Automobile and Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, the General Director of KAMAZ OJSC, the chief designer of KAMAZ OJSC and other representatives of the defense department and the military industry attended the tests.
For two days, Russian specialists carried out specialized shelling of IVECO with B-32 armor-piercing incendiary bullets using a 7,62x54 caliber ballistic barrel. It was from such ammunition that the manufacturer guaranteed protection according to the third level of STANAG 4569 (it corresponds to the Russian 6a ballistic protection class according to GOST R 50963-96). But in Russia there were no such tests, the company did not allow them, as I said, except for laboratory, laboratory and road works and field trials. By the way, there was no mention of protection against KPVT, it was Lopatov’s fantasies, because there was no talk of protection under STANAG 4 at all, and they don’t even put it on such a machine, this is mainly for armored personnel carriers. And the AKM 7,62 bullet and the SVD are kept by the Tiger and the Wolf and the Bear and the Bulat. By the way, there is a hinged protection at the level of STANAG -4 and higher in Russia, a research institute of steel and alloys has been created and is recommended, for example, to protect BMP-3

[Lopatov]

Well? Where is there about the fact that our specialists have not experienced "Iveco" by shelling and detonation? Let me quote you your words, for which you get advantages from your comrades-in-arms, couch patriots:

Quote: duke

By the way, Italians did not allow ours to test their Lynx for undermining, for shelling, even according to the stated indicators

Well, the fact that the Italians demanded to do this at a landfill with the appropriate equipment is quite a natural thing. If I were in their place, I would also do this after reading articles that some gifted people from the VPK company used pigs during such tests instead of expensive dummies.

[old man54]

Quote: Basileus

We had essentially a localized assembly of finished parts. I don’t think that in this case too many technologies have crossed ours)

Ie wheels fastened ?? Normally, the tire fitting was built from Iveco ...

[deman73]

Instead of doing something of our own, our grandmothers decided to give it to the Italian, it’s interesting how much the Italian women rolled back for the contract

[Dwarfik]

Good NOT special in armored cars, but contracts for foreign weapons to the detriment of their own - very stupid! We don’t have armored cars? we have enough developments of armored cars of different tonnage, protection class and price! What you bought is not to be thrown out, but prospective contracts can be minimized without panic!

[Basileus]

Please give an example of a domestic armored vehicle with similar characteristics, ready for production.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Basileus

Please give an example of a domestic armored vehicle with similar characteristics, ready for production.

This is not a reason to arm the army with foreign equipment, buy a license, steal, copy, but do, not collect at home

Do you know why Kamaz refused Lynx?
the decision is connected with foreign components, for which the Russian plant does not and will not have a license.

The main components of the armored car IVECO LMV M65, not belonging to the Italian production.
Ceramic armor - made in Germany.
The basis of armor - materials made in Holland.
Engine - developed in the USA. IVECO is not able to transfer the rights to manufacture these units,
given the fact that they simply do not belong to her, and Russia does not have an agreement with the US on military-technical close cooperation in the event of the start of unlicensed
production of parts of armored vehicles the US State Department could block the sale of KamAZ trucks in Western Europe and North America. In addition, the Russian armed forces would be in full
depending on the supply of spare parts by American enterprises.

[Basileus]

Again. Does Russia have a similar armored car?

[rereture]

Various modifications of the GAZ-2330 "Tiger", they are already being produced for imports and law enforcement agencies, minus there is no mine protection.

If you look at the future, that is VPK-3927 "Wolf", which if brought to mind is not worse than the Lynx.

[Basileus]

That's when they bring it, then we must refuse. And breaking contracts is at least bad.

[Basileus]

Someone walked abundantly over me with minuses. Not otherwise, agents of the military-industrial complex corporation, as nothing was said in the case, but it’s bad for the soul from the truth))

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Basileus

Someone walked abundantly over me with minuses. Not otherwise, agents of the military-industrial complex corporation, as nothing was said in the case, but it’s bad for the soul from the truth))

So, hundreds of pages have already been discussed on this topic.
The manufacturers have everything to make any car. All that is needed is a technical task (what exactly does the Army need) and, at least, a guarantee of payment.
So after all this was not: neither those tasks, nor money.
In my opinion, when Serdyukov was the most incompetent MO in the history of Russia.

[Lopatov]

And why did "Zashchita" do it without any technical specifications? No guarantees of payment. But their financial capabilities are much less than those of Deripaska's subordinates.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

And why did "Zashchita" do it without any technical specifications? No guarantees of payment.

If I am not confused, the "protection" works under the wing of "Kamaz", and "Kamaz" was lobbied by Serdyukov himself (most of the military orders for wheeled vehicles were placed on "Kamaz", although Arzamas has an order of magnitude more experience and experience).

[Lopatov]

Without any "wing". 70% - STK "Soyuz", the rest - private individuals. So it's all honest - they used their twenty years of experience in car booking to enter the military market. Recently, the Israelis bought a license for a light cross-country vehicle for ZIBAR MK2 specialists. They are going to release under the name Scorpio-LPA

Arzamas may have more experience and experience, but they are not going to use them.
And by the way, how many wheeled vehicles were developed in Arzamas, do not tell me?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

And by the way, how many wheeled vehicles were developed in Arzamas, do not tell me?

All armored personnel carriers (60,70,80,82,90), Tiger, Wolf are produced by them - aren't they developed?

[Lopatov]

That is one. And one more will not be brought to production in any way, although the Ministry of Defense pays for the development.
Actually, you forgot about "Bear". Total three.

And how many KamAZ, starting with the onboard 5320?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Bad_gr

All armored personnel carriers (60,70,80,82,90, XNUMX, XNUMX), Tiger, Wolf

Quote: Spade

That is one.

Interesting math ....
What did you find?

[Lopatov]

And what does "All armored personnel carriers (60,70,80,82,90)" have to do with wheeled vehicles?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

And what does "All armored personnel carriers (60,70,80,82,90)" have to do with wheeled vehicles?

And what are they? caterpillar? By the way, the Tiger's suspension is borrowed from the BTR-80. The experience of using the protection of the crew of the armored personnel carrier was probably taken into account when creating the same armored "Tiger". In addition, to the listed armored personnel carriers, you can also add their modifications, which the same was done not from the bulldozer, but taking into account the experience gained (including in battles).

[Lopatov]

Bicycles are also not tracked.

Defense experience? If the one I am thinking about is better not to use it.
Install a cushioned raised floor and call it a "significant increase in mine protection", hang Kevlar screens inside the hull and call it "a significant increase in armor"?
No, thanks

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

Defense experience? ......

Quote: Spade

..... No, thanks

Well, you don’t need it.
Russia ranks second in the world in arms exports. This year, military equipment was exported 15% more than the same period last year. This suggests that our military equipment is at least no worse than foreign.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Bad_gr

Well, you don’t need it.

And who needs it? You? On mrs. Do you work Deripaska?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

On mrs. Do you work Deripaska?

Are you on NATO? To drag any crap into the country, and even for our money, and put our guys into this dubious, and find excuses ....

[Lopatov]

To NATO? Are they also against our military dying or becoming disabled? Then on them

[Pimply]

The prospect is good. But in reality, soldiers are dying. Offer them to offer perspective instead of protection?

[Vadivak]

Quote: Basileus

Again. Does Russia have a similar armored car?

There is no such rubbish and it is not necessary that NATO countries receive a completely different IVECO "Lynx" than Russia receives it. We are talking about mine protection. Russia gets cars that will not protect against their own weapons.

[Basileus]

Prufa, as expected, will not be?

[Pimply]

Give me a sec. And what are the differences. For fun - what is the rubbish of the Russian version of the Lynx?

[old man54]

Quote: Vadivak

[We are talking about mine protection. Russia receives cars that will not protect against their own weapons

Oh how ??? And you can do it in more detail, not taste, to be honest! If this is so, then Smerdyukov should no longer be hanged for embezzlement and embezzlement for a scrotum on a pole, but for treason against his homeland, in connection with his position at the time of the conclusion of this contract, and his at least neglect of duties and actions that led to undermining defense of the country.

[Vadivak]

Quote: old man54

Oh how ??? Can you give more details,

In Italy itself, an investigation was launched into the circumstances of the adoption of the Iveco M65E19WM LMW.

http://voprosik.net/broneavtomobil-rys-problemy/

Best regards

[Pimply]

Yeah, and in 10 more countries, all of which took part in the war in Afghanistan.

Do not read Soviet newspapers at breakfast. (with)

I recommend finding the original article about the investigation.

[Dwarfik]

Armored car "Tiger"! Here is a small article for you, there is something to read.
http://vpk.nam/news/81601_shoigu_predlozhil_sravnit_bronemashinyi_ryis_i_tigr.ht
ml
The fact that the Lynx under the bottom holds (supposedly) 6 kg of TNT is the assurances of the Italian side,
they didn’t completely undermine the lynx, and it seems to me that it’s understandable for what reason, for the same as its all-terrain qualities were excellent but in practice ...

[Basileus]

The description indicates the conditions and the result.

[Pimply]

Yeah. Considering how Makar the production machine of Mr. Deripaska was promoted 8)

Quote: Dwarfik

The fact that the Lynx under the bottom holds (supposedly) 6 kg of TNT is the assurances of the Italian side,

Yeah. 10 countries are in service, everyone is fighting in Afghanistan, all options for the car have been exhausted, the most massive armored car in Europe is a shock, all lies, everyone lies, the Russian article does not lie.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Pimply

10 countries are in service, everyone is fighting in Afghanistan,

Our BTR-70 is in service with more than 30 countries,
BTR-80 - almost 40,
BMP-1 - 43 countries,
BMP-2 - more than 40,

And you want to say that we do not know how to make armored vehicles?
10 countries bought products from Italians, 40 from ours - so whose equipment is better?

[Lopatov]

And how many ballerinas of the Russian school around the world work ?!

[Ezhaak]

Quote: Basileus

Does Russia have a similar armored car?

Dear, can you offer something specific according to what Vadivak said? And he said:

the decision is connected with foreign components, for which the Russian plant does not and will not have a license.

Are you able to radically solve these problems ???

[old man54]

Quote: Basileus

Again. Does Russia have a similar armored car?

You do not cut through ??? You look at the state of relations, at today's rhetoric between Russia and NATO at least. If this is not war and preparations for it, then it’s not ardent friendship anymore. And then, if the Russian state is restored as it should, it will not be better, only worse! And if the conflict, even regional, and the EU (NATO) will close the supply of spare parts for them, and then what to do with them? To sell for scrap? Learn the history of the Venezuelan armed forces from the time of Chavez, you won’t ask such questions!

[Basileus]

It seems to me that I simply and clearly posed the question. There was no Venezuela, no conflict, no rhetoric. For you, I will specifically repeat - does Russia have a similar armored car? No? How many years have passed? Why still no?

[Rustam]

Vadivak Do you know why Kamaz refused Lynx?
______________

Why are you, gentlemen from Rostecology, having squeezed the assembly from Oboronservis (Voronezh), organized it on the daughter of Kamaz OJSC (Remdiesel) and now they are successfully collecting these samples for our army - calling them the most protected in the armed forces of the Russian Federation

this year 267 will be shipped; we have so many Tigers in the army!
especially for you - so say on applications I repeat the post


March 21, 2013 18:30 | Valkaya Lynx. BBM test results faked in Italy

explain
1-during the time when Mr. Serdyukov was at the helm about Iveco, only lazy people didn’t wipe their legs, all of our military-industrial complex, Russian Technologies and so on-saying what it is
but on March 15, 2013, an event occurred that showed all the duplicity and greed of some of the leaders of our military-industrial complex, etc.

On March 2-15, KAMAZ OJSC held a pompous presentation of its new and promising models, including the miraculous Italian IVECO LMV (with production plans for 2013 260 machines, and in the future for the needs of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation 3000-4000 units

3-After the resignation of Serdyukov, the guys from Rostekhnologii pressed the assembly from Voronezh to organize the assembly at ZAO KAMAZ’s daughter RamAZ and now Iveco from Kamaz is just super duper — now the true reasons for the removal of Serdyukov are clear — this doesn’t interfere with cutting GOZ!





Well, Chemezov, the guy doesn’t miss lobbying Iveki if, if there is no explosive help, Taburetkin moved from the state defense order now you can turn around, but when Serdyukov was on the post Iveco didn’t kick only the lazy-headed man, what does it mean - and now it’s cool tachila — the duplicity of some figures resents cannot

but as the leadership of Russian Technologies (represented by Mr. Chemezov) constantly puts sticks in the wheels of AMZ and does not allow it to develop and improve, I’ll tell you later, and this is a completely different story


Illustrative photo and video

demonstration performance on April 15, 2013 Kamaz on the glory of Kamazevtsev this version is fully adapted for the Russian army in the basic version 27 changes have been made and such a trifle as snow is not a problem for Iveco


PS- The hypocrisy of the comrades from our military-industrial complex is simply amazing, to the same place there is a rivalry between Messrs. Chemezov and Deripaska

[Flooding]

Quote: Rustam

Now the true reasons for the displacement of Serdyukov are clear, this is not to interfere with sawing GOZ!

And then we were racking our brains ... Thank you, we made fun

[Rustam]

And then we were racking our brains ... Thank you, we made fun
____________

No, you didn’t break it, they threw up some dirt on you (it was an order from the military industrial complex lobbyists) and we ate it right for our feats of real estate and he lost his post
Probably such acts in any ministry and state corporation are even worse, only the time has not come, and their actions are suitable for someone

But this does not apply to military construction - if you still do not understand
Serdyukov’s trouble is that he swung at a feeding trough called GOZ — which our generals and bureaucrats from the military-industrial complex wanted to control — that’s what he paid for (only with his position)

And the GOZ program is already starting to slip; the defense industry enterprises are not being able to cope with their obligations

so read for general development http://topwar.ru/23495-tehnika-dlya-minoborony-dolzhna-proizvoditsya-v-rossii-sc
hitaet-shoygu.html # comment-id-866889

[Vadivak]

Quote: Rustam

understand the true reasons for the displacement of Serdyukov is not to interfere with the cut GOZ!

So he turns out to be Serdyukov - a fighter against corruption.

Rustam, I understand you are a fan of Iveco, but please do not be offended to the same extent.

[Rustam]

Vadivak Rustam, I understand you are a fan of Iveco, but please do not be offended, not to the same extent
___________

Greetings Vadim, well, in a row

1) I have never been an ardent supporter of Iveco, but I advocated the adoption of several hundred samples for what? in order for AMZ to raise its butt and begin to move, he began to do it to my delight, quietly with flaws with marriage, but began - to the same place the Tigers who are now leaving his assembly line are not those who were leaving in 2006

2) about Serdyukov. You carefully read my post, I’m not saying that Serdyukov is not a thief, I said that he tried to move the Russian Technologies and other titans from the feeder under the name GOZ, and he paid for it (that is, they collected and when they thought that (Serdyukov) began to greyhound, concluding more and more contracts with Western firms and strangling the generals with the military-industrial complex, they launched it-this is ABC

3) And what do we see, production continues but where? Correctly at the controlled enterprise of Russian Technologies and what plans

Now it’s better for me to work with the French, they give technology and are ready to transfer technology

but according to the latest actions, KAMAZ OJSC, which wants to become a wheeled technical monopoly for the army with the concept of a Tornado, is beaten out as a leader)))
that is, to do everything and for all, it is natural that other AMZ, Baz, Uralaz disagree with this

so we will see and hear a lot more

[Pimply]

Made in Russia primarily written on a Russian soldier

[Flooding]

Greetings, Pimpled.
Just remembered you. The sad news is replete with the Internet.
If you don’t lie, of course.

[Pimply]

Wait and see

[poquello]

"Please give an example of a domestic armored vehicle with similar characteristics, ready for production."

armored steel was developed, which, without increasing the mass of the Tiger, will provide it with a class of ballistic protection 6a

[Pimply]

Yeah. Does she already exist, is she already standing?
What will you do with mine protection?

For example, Russian ceramics in tests showed better results than foreign ones. But the transition to mass production failed - the quality did not hold, it was unstable.

[omsbon]

Quote: Dwarfik

we have enough developments of armored cars of different tonnage, protection class and price! What you bought is not to be thrown out, but prospective contracts can be minimized without panic!

Military equipment should not be purchased abroad - this is an axiom!
The purchase or screwdriver assembly of foreign military equipment leads to the degradation of its own production and the stagnation of design thought.

[Pimply]

Funny, but this is not an axiom. In the USSR, military equipment was regularly purchased abroad and did not frown. The United States purchases military equipment abroad and does not cry.

[Flooding]

Quote: Pimply

In the USSR, military equipment was regularly purchased abroad and did not frown.

Firstly, abroad is different. If you are talking about the post-war period, then not in the NATO countries, anyway. If you are talking about earlier times, then only in two cases:
1. when their capabilities are not allowed to create and produce similar equipment
2. during the war, when the bill went to the clock and there was no other way out

[Pimply]

And now there are cars with mine protection? Serial, having passed all the tests? No.

Bought to plug holes and reduce the backlog in technology. I can give a post-war example - the purchase of helicopters in the United States, made by Khrushchev.

The question is that Russia is not the USSR, NATO now is not the monolithic bloc that it was before. And if there are opportunities to plug the holes that arose, not with the corpses of Russian soldiers, but with other people's technologies - this opportunity should be used.

[Flooding]

Quote: Pimply

I can give a post-war example - the purchase of helicopters in the United States, made by Khrushchev.

You yourself know that the example is unsuccessful.
We bought several transporters to transport American delegations.
Their further fate? Dismantled into cogs for study.

Quote: Pimply

NATO now is not the monolithic bloc that it was before.

How did they steer the United States and steer further

Quote: Pimply

And if there are opportunities to plug the holes that arose, not with the corpses of Russian soldiers, but with other people's technologies - this opportunity should be used.

And if you can close the holes in your military-industrial complex - should they be used?
But how? It turned out that buying Iveka, this will not work.
That is, in any case, it is necessary to push and develop domestic developments.
Do mass purchases of LBT abroad contribute to this? No, rather slow down.

[Pimply]

Quote: Flood

And if you can close the holes in your military-industrial complex - should they be used?
But how? It turned out that buying Iveka, this will not work.
That is, in any case, it is necessary to push and develop domestic developments.
Do mass purchases of LBT abroad contribute to this? No, rather slow down.

Iveco should have been procured so that Russian manufacturers had the opportunity to complete projects such as the Wolves, Bears and other things that they are trying to do there. And this is normal world practice.

Quote: Flood

Do mass purchases of LBT abroad contribute to this? No, rather slow down.

Yes, they do. Because no one wanted to move before purchasing abroad, and they diligently diluted any marriage at inflated prices: they say there is no alternative anyway.

[Flooding]

Quote: Pimply

Yes, they do. Because no one wanted to move before purchasing abroad, and they diligently diluted any marriage at inflated prices: they say there is no alternative anyway.

That is, after all, you admit that Iveco is needed not by itself, as a high-quality military equipment for "closing holes with someone else's technology", but only as a stimulation of a Russian manufacturer?
Then keep five. We will come to a consensus soon

[Pimply]

No need to try to distort my words, buzz?
It does not interfere. Iveco is primarily needed in order to save the lives of Russian soldiers at a time when Russian gunsmiths cannot and / or do not want to. And don't try to troll me.

[Flooding]

Quote: Pimply

And don't try to troll me.

To begin with, take an interest in what trolling is. Good?
Otherwise, the opposite is true.

[Pimply]

I know what trolling is. Therefore, I say - do not try.

[Flooding]

"In Internet terminology, a 'troll' is a person who posts rude or provocative messages on the Internet, for example, in discussion forums, interferes with discussion or offends its participants.
Source: http://shkolazhizni.ru/archive/0/n-1468/
© Shkolazhizni.ru "

Good luck

[Pimply]

Exactly. Have a nice one you too.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Flood

Do mass purchases of LBT abroad contribute to this? No, rather slow down.

++++ That's right, but we don’t have a car like IVECO and it means we have to buy it, I look like a defeatist one, we don’t have to buy it but create it from domestic units and assemblies.


P / S / and thanks to Rustam for the info.

[svp67]

Quote: Pimply

. In the USSR, military equipment was regularly purchased abroad and did not frown.

Yes, but not in such quantities, but mainly for study or copying, in their factories ...

Quote: Pimply

The United States purchases military equipment abroad and does not cry.

Here it is necessary to carefully understand what and how they are purchasing, as far as I know, the US is trying to produce foreign products at its plants ...

[Pimply]

Quote: svp67

Yes, but not in such quantities, but mainly for study or copying, in their factories ...

No, not only. For a completely normal setting in operation. For example, remember the "Tashkent" built in Livorno? And he was not alone.

No one gives just to look at, make out. View-disassemble is worth a lot of big money.

Quote: svp67

Here it is necessary to carefully understand what and how they are purchasing, as far as I know, the US is trying to produce foreign products at its plants ...

That's right, and that’s logical. Only if there is a need, they purchase the first consignments abroad without any tantrums, and then localize production - and not always completely.

[svp67]

Quote: Pimply

For example, remember the "Tashkent" built in Livorno? And he was not alone.

Well, ships are generally a "piece" product, so far to take modern "Mistrals" ... But equipment for the ground forces is completely different, in our reality Russia cannot rely on the supply of such weapons from abroad, all these weapons and weapons must be produced at our factories, even if they are foreign design.

[old man54]

Quote: Pimply

Funny, but this is not an axiom. In the USSR, military equipment was regularly purchased abroad and did not frown. The United States purchases military equipment abroad and does not cry.

EXAMPLES ?????????? !!!!!

[Pimply]

Christie’s tank platform, training aircraft, destroyer leader Tashkent, Polish landing craft, Rolls-Royce engines, and much more.

[old man54]

Quote: Pimply

Christie's tank platform,

It was bought in the states for review (in the number of 3 pieces it seems), according to the documents passed as TRACTOR because it was sold without a tower!!!! They studied, tested, realized that its reliability was not to hell, reworked and based on it created the suspension and transmission of the BT tank! Themselves have already created and released BT! See the difference ?? Do not buy them in thousands!

training aircraft

Czechoslovak Prospect, you about them? The political decision of the times of Khrushchev, so as not to offend the Czechs, because otherwise they are on x ... no one needed in the world. As a result of this decision, they cut down their wonderful similar project by Yakovlev Design Bureau, but much better! Politics ...

amphibious polish ships

created according to 100% of our project, equipped after construction in Gdansk, at home, with our weapons, radar and our LSI! We gave orders for construction to the Poles, because their shipyards were overloaded with orders of real modern warships and submarines. Most of the merchant sea and river fleets of the USSR are the same in Poland (and in Finland) were built for the same reasons, so what ?! Where is the connection with Lynx (NATO) and our auto industry ???

destroyer leader Tashkent

a single order to get acquainted with Italian design solutions in shipbuilding, as the domestic lagged far behind the years of the revolution and civil war (although it was not when it was not strong under tsarism).

Rolls-Royce engines

bought a few samples and a production license! Don't you feel the difference too? :))

and many many others

I thought you should try to write about Li-2 :) Or don’t you have this information? :) But here, too, the samples are just a license for production. Although then I had to translate everything from inches to meters and put our engines.

Well, where are the mass purchases of finished military equipment over the hill in the USSR? Educational Elka does not count, pure reverence towards the leadership of Czechoslovakia.

[Lopatov]

Russia is not the USSR. It’s time to understand this.

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

Russia is not the USSR. It’s time to understand this.

if this is you to me, then I agree !! But rather unfortunately !! Especially in relation to the defense capability of weapons! A fish ALWAYS ROTTING FROM THE HEAD and all the fundamental differences between modern Russia and the USSR, not only in the constitution, but in the quality and minds of those people who "rule" it today, with our tacit connivance, and this is the main difference and the main one!

[Lopatov]

Dear, how many defense research institutes, defense industry enterprises, component suppliers were lost during the collapse of the USSR? With the best attitude towards defense, Russia would never be able to pull the same burden as the USSR.

[svp67]

Quote: old man54

was bought by the states for review (in the number of 3 pieces it seems), according to the documents it passed as a TRACTOR because it was sold without a tower !!!!

In addition, a LICENSE was purchased for the production of this TANK for a period of 10 years ...

[old man54]

Quote: svp67

In addition, a LICENSE was purchased for the production of this TANK for a period of 10 years ...

was, yes, but it was not useful, because on the field trials, the Christie's suspension system proved to be shitty, there were specific breakdowns (even without a tower and without a BC, that is, with a lower load), there is a video in the series "Armor of Russia", and it was reworked, which is not quite a creative Christie!

[svp67]

Quote: old man54

was, yes, but it was not useful, because on the field trials, the Christie's suspension system proved to be shitty, there were specific breakdowns (even without a tower and without a BC, that is, with a lower load), there is a video in the series "Armor of Russia", and it was reworked, which is not quite a creative Christie!

Here, forgive me, as in the saying "I look in ... and I see ...". Christie's suspension was installed on all tanks of the BT series and on the T34 ... You probably just misunderstood the story about the episode with the breakage of the guide wheel ...

[Vadivak]

Quote: old man54

Well, where are the mass purchases of finished military equipment over the hill in the USSR?

Bravo +. There was also a purchase of other engines under the same conditions, BMW, Impano Suz, Gnome Rum, etc.

[svp67]

Quote: Pimply

amphibious Polish ships,

This fact, as well as the purchase of Czech training aircraft, wheeled self-propelled howitzers, Polish helicopters - just as support for the ally's industry ...

[old man54]

Quote: svp67

This fact, as well as the purchase of Czech training aircraft, wheeled self-propelled howitzers, Polish helicopters - just as support for the ally's industry ...

A Polish-built BDK was by no means built due to the support of their shipbuilding, but because its shipyards could not cope with the volume of orders, I wrote above.

[Vadivak]

Quote: old man54

their GCCs could not cope with the volume of orders

Yes, and the social camp had to somehow support

[Dwarfik]

I will add that the RYS that is supplied to us and will be collected in the future will be collected from components, there is no talk of production, the contract clearly states that there will be no transfer of documentation. The reason is just that ceramic armor, the technology of which is not given by amers. They got what we have from their hands.

[poquello]

"The reason is just that ceramic armor, the technology of which is not given by the amers. From their hands we got what we have."

Germans, Germans don’t give, but we have it

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Dwarfik

The reason is just that ceramic armor, the technology of which is not given by amers. They got what we have from their hands.

Quote: poquello

the Germans, the Germans don’t give,

By the way, it doesn’t suit us at all, since the ceramic substrate becomes brittle in the cold, and the ceramic, after mechanical impact, shatters like glass.
In domestic ceramic armor, the substrate of aluminum alloys retains its protective properties even in the cold.

[poquello]

"In the case of domestic ceramic armor, the substrate made of aluminum alloys retains its protective properties even in the cold."

I know the second reason ceramics do not normally repair.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: poquello

the second reason ceramics do not normally repair.

So after all, it is not repaired at all (at least imported. At least ours): the entire panel is one-time, it changes completely after damage.
Therefore, it is not a fact that the frame hung with metal-ceramic armor (like Iveco) is in all cases better than the all-welded armored box (like the Tiger).
And it’s interesting how Ivek will defend her crew if broken panels are changed not immediately after the battle, but from time to time (when the supplies deign to let them down).

[poquello]

Quote: Bad_gr

Quote: poquello

the second reason ceramics do not normally repair.

So after all, it is not repaired at all (at least imported. At least ours): the entire panel is one-time, it changes completely after damage.
Therefore, it is not a fact that the frame hung with metal-ceramic armor (like Iveco) is in all cases better than the all-welded armored box (like the Tiger).
And it’s interesting how Ivek will defend her crew if broken panels are changed not immediately after the battle, but from time to time (when the supplies deign to let them down).

exactly

[Lopatov]

There is such an interesting thing with army weapons as a spare part. Individual, group, repair. Have you heard of such a thing?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

There is such an interesting thing with army weapons as a spare part. Individual, group, repair. Have you heard of such a thing?

I heard. And what of this must be taken with you? and how to put it instead of another crap? or carry everything?

[Lopatov]

To carry everything. In group spare parts

[old man54]

Quote: Spade

There is such an interesting thing with army weapons as a spare part. Individual, group, repair. Have you heard of such a thing?

Heard! :) Forgive me dear, but about spare parts, its presence in the aircraft, we recently read in one of the branches on the VO, where the conversation seemed to go about the ACS "Acacia". It was there that one comrade (I don’t remember the nickname, sorry) gave you an example of how and why they broke down in Chechnya during the database, where and why the spare parts for them disappeared, who "disappeared" and who was even sent to prison for this. There was a conversation about spare parts and accessories and about its plundering from the Armed Forces. Remember? I am sure that you will remember, so your comment is more than inappropriate here, as Iveco's argument all the more!

[Lopatov]

Yes, they are stealing. But what now, to abandon weapons and military equipment in general? Or put things in order?

[Dwarfik]

Here is the armored car "Wolf". I will make a reservation that its full detonation tests were not according to the manufacturer. but doubt that it will be no worse than the "plastic" Lynx, I think, is not worth it.

[Basileus]

About how many wonderful discoveries the state is preparing for us. tests. Not in rhyme, but true. To take something into service, the car must pass a full test. Here in I believe, I do not believe you will not play - the lives of thousands of soldiers may depend on this. After the initial tests, the Wolf revealed about a dozen flaws, and there have not been repeated ones yet. But I hope that ours will bring at least something that will replace Rysya, but for now, we must use what we have.

[sasha.28blaga]

On the farm would be like that.

[Pimply]

The wolf is not ready yet. He did not pass the tests, mass production is not established. To go into the series, it will take him several years.

[NOMADE]

Quote: Dwarfik

I will add that the RYS that is supplied to us and will be collected in the future will be collected from components, there is no talk of production, the contract clearly states that there will be no transfer of documentation. The reason is just that ceramic armor, the technology of which is not given by amers. They got what we have from their hands.

Here, just me and the question on armor was alarming. I wonder how much things are going with ceramic and composite armor in general?

[sasha.28blaga]

On the contrary, the armor and body are domestic development. In general, the author himself does not know what he wrote.

[Prapor Afonya]

Quote: woland05

In the south, the Tigers are doing great ...

By the way, why are tigers bad? What are they worse? No, well, the stool was clearly accepted by lynxes for its own benefit, but tigers were adopted earlier and if they are no worse than lynxes, they can well support the domestic auto industry, and if an even more perfect domestic car comes out, then it's good!

[Basileus]

Tigers have no mine protection. This is the only complaint against them, by and large. As an analogue of Iveco, the Tiger-6A is developed, which has an appropriate level of protection. But this machine has not yet been tested, so all its advantages are still on paper. Well, the Wolf is still there, yes.

[Pimply]

Not the only, but the main one.

[Basileus]

Well big) The fact that they are done through one place and with the convenience of a problem is not a system problem.

[Pimply]

Not only. There were problems with the engine, as I recall.

[Gamdlislyam]

Dear colleague Basileus, "Tigers" were developed on the instructions of the MVA and the FSB. They meet the requirements that were in the assignment, and therefore these departments are purchasing these machines.
MO also issued a task, and when the machine was ready for them, they changed the requirements for the size of the blast charge that the machine should hold. Thus, Iveka did not have competitors for protection against undermining (although Ivekva was not tested in Russia for undermining). Other performance characteristics were not taken into account.
There was a behind-the-scenes struggle here, where defensive capability was relegated to the background. Although, as they say, "there would be no happiness but misfortune helped." Our bourgeoisie began to move and work ahead of the curve, both technologically and in advertising (propaganda and counter-propaganda). As a result, today there is a whole line of armored vehicles. Choose - I don't want to.

[Pimply]

No. The tiger was developed by the UAE project. And when the contract was already terminated, the car was brought in by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Defense. Given the fact that armored vehicles of this class did not exist before, this was not bad. True assembly was nowhere worse, and there was a lack of mine protection. The Arabs then dubbed their project to it with the help of the Germans, and Tiger 6A remained a beautiful picture. So do not about the technical specifications of the MO. It was adjusted later, according to the characteristics of an existing machine.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Pimply

The tiger was developed by the UAE project. And when the contract was already terminated, the car was brought in by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Defense.

Do you know that these are all different cars? For the United Arab Emirates, a jeep-type car with a tin case was developed, it goes to our Army according to the 3rd protection class, to the Ministry of Internal Affairs - according to the 5th.
How sideways did they get it if the order from the consumer is clearly traced?

[Lopatov]

http://modeli-gaz.ru/gaz/gaz-2975.htm
Believe the developers themselves?

Quote: Bad_gr

How sideways did they get it if the order from the consumer is clearly traced?

The consumer did not need him absolutely. In the army there was no tactical niche for him and the Ministry of Internal Affairs then cost three times cheaper armored UAZ vehicles.

[Denis]

Quote: Spade

MIA then cost three times cheaper armored UAZ

Can you throw info about them?
And then I saw only the usual with ATGMs and then the GAZ-69 in the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Signal Corps
And in the film, some kind of announcer said about them that everyone is good, but they’re not armored

[Lopatov]

C'mon, have you never seen an armored UAZ? And what, damn it, ATGMs in the Ministry of Internal Affairs?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

http://modeli-gaz.ru/gaz/gaz-2975.htm
Believe the developers themselves?

Quote: Spade

The consumer did not need him absolutely.

From your link:
".... The customer liked the cars, but after testing the cars in desert conditions, the relationship between BJG and PKT was terminated ...........
In 2001-2002, the PKT company, by order of GAZ, reworked the original version of the GAZ-2975. In the terms of reference special attention was paid to ensuring the safety of the crew ....... "

That is: for the Arabs, according to their terms of reference, a car was developed, and after the breakdown of relations, the manufacturer receives another terms of reference for the car, according to which it is being finalized. The receipt by the plant of the new terms of reference does not really fit with "was not needed absolutely" and "vtyuhali".

[Lopatov]

Quote: Bad_gr

after a break in relations, the manufacturer receives another technical task for the machine, according to which it is finalized.

Read carefully, the manufacturer did not receive any terms of reference, and he himself issued it to his subsidiary CJSC Industrial Computer Technologies (PKT).

Quote: Bad_gr

The receipt by the plant of the new terms of reference does not really fit with "was not needed absolutely" and "vtyuhali".

As we can see, JSC "GAZ" did not receive anything, but itself issued the terms of reference to its "daughter" to optimize the car to Russian conditions. On an initiative basis.
The first stage of preparation for "vtyuhivaniya", right?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

The first stage of preparation for "vtyuhivaniya", right?

No not like this. The car was adapted to the needs of the consumer. After that, the Moscow Region and the Ministry of Internal Affairs decided that they needed a similar car. We adjusted the technical specifications for the protection class (for the Ministry of Defense - 3-th, the Ministry of Internal Affairs - 5th) - and received what was ordered.
Nobody would buy a used car.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Bad_gr

After that, the Moscow Region and the Ministry of Internal Affairs decided that they needed a similar car.

But from this moment in more detail. In order not to be diffused, explain why the Ministry of Defense needed the "Tigers" at that moment.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

But from this moment in more detail. In order not to be diffused, explain why the Ministry of Defense needed the "Tigers" at that moment.

If you read your link carefully, then we meet:
".... At the VII Moscow International Automobile Exhibition" MIMS-2002 "the GAZ-2975" Tiger "car became the winner of the competition of the" Commercial Transport "magazine in the following nominations:" Grand Prix "in the nomination" The best special car MIMS-2002 "and II place in the nomination "Special Prize MIMS-2002" for perspective, original design and concept of the car .... "

That is, they chose the best, and the destination is the same as that of Hamer in the American army, and for this reason, the UAZ's carrying capacity was no longer enough.

[Lopatov]

No water, just name a place in the organizational structure. Let me remind you that at the time of the start of their purchases in the motorized rifle regiment in the state, there were two UAZ vehicles, one for the commander and one for the sappers (with DIM). Now in the motorized rifle, one.
Location please.

And we don’t need about the American army, fortunately, we don’t have light motorized infantry brigades, we don’t have to fight in the other hemisphere.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Spade

No water, just name a place in the organizational structure.

I’m not working in the Ministry of Defense, so the arguments are only those that I brought.
Or maybe you specifically (without water) indicate why we needed almost 3 thousand (1775 + 1200) LMV / Lynx ordered by the former Minister of Defense in the Army?

[Pimply]

They all said for me

[Basileus]

I laid out the explosion at KamAZ above.

[hiocraib]

Quote: Gamdlislyam

"Tigers" were developed on the instructions of the MVA and the FSB

therefore, the Chinese who bought the Tigers use them in police units such as OMON, SWAT and to disperse demonstrations, and not in the army.

[Roll]

Hi, is mine protection really important for armored cars? Everyone talks about her with a smart look, as if this is really the only and most important threat to armored cars. If you proceed from practice, hitting a mine with a wheel is a rarity, most mines are manageable, even noticeable by wire, and if an experienced demolition man does not explode under the wheel, but it will explode under the bottom. Then many mines are located in roadside bushes and of great power. Anti-infantry mines will not do much harm to the tiger. And then if the experienced commander, instead of driving at random, you can send forward a mineral or a dog, for her there is enough room in the trunk. And 6 kilograms, well, militants will put a 152-millimeter shell next to a mine, all the same, protection will not save.

[Basileus]

The coalition is actively using MRIs in Afghanistan. In any case, due to the fact that they are ineffective.

http://twower.livejournal.com/864468.html вот тут за меня уже посчитали, сколько раз и что взрывалось на пути следования наших войск на СК. Как видите, 152мм фугасы - достаточно большая редкость, что не мудрено, ибо тащить их на своем горбу - достаточно непростое занятие.

[Roll]

I read your link, 152 and 122 mm mines and shells were used, and often in roadside bushes the effectiveness was quite low, moreover, even against cars the Urals. Therefore, you have once again confirmed that mine protection from mines up to 6 kg is full crap. 2 kg the tiger can withstand, this is enough, and large-caliber mines are used for ambushes, but ambush is another story.

[Basileus]

Not just the Urals, but the armored Urals, and given that the bonnet car, it becomes clear what exactly allowed to protect people. In addition, a 120mm mine is the same 3 kilograms of explosives that the Tiger can no longer withstand. The explosive weight in 122mm HE shells is also EMNIP suitable for 4-5kg. The link reports a large number of wounded both as a result of the fact that they were sitting on the armor, and due to the fact that they were traveling in unarmored vehicles.

[Roll]

Once again looked at your link. All events in it begin in 2003, when Chechnya has a relatively peaceful time, under the vigilant eye of Kadyrov. But the statistics of the 90s looks different, and then the time is military. Although the armored car is a machine in peacetime and wartime, it is universal.

[Pimply]

This is not a complete statistic, but a partial one.

[Pimply]

I recommend you to watch when there was the last explosion in the Caucasus, as well as general statistics. They use mainly not mines, but IEDs. Reasoning Well put a 152 mm shell - this is delusional reasoning. Because putting such a projectile is problematic.

[Roll]

Why, in ambushes, it’s most certainly lazy to drag a shell or backpack of TNT checkers, but in an ambush it is important to stop and immobilize the column, so you have to strain and drag. But for the loot, let’s say for 200 bucks it’s better to install a low-power one, but most of them.

[Pimply]

Yeah. And such a projectile must first be got. And such a projectile must be dragged and installed, while not being detected.

[Pimply]

The fact that the Tigers do not have mine protection. That's bad. Build quality was not so long ago through a stump deck.

[Roll]

Pupyrchaty, as you think, it’s no better than tearing up with mine protection, include at least one of the 3 armored carriers of a sapper with a spanielka, Spanielka eats little, you can carry it in the trunk, and it’s good to search for mines and swallows, and if there is an ambush, and it flies, in principle cheap and cheerful.

[Basileus]

A suicide bomber with a spaniel who will go?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Basileus

A suicide bomber with a spaniel who will go?

With a disposable spaniel.

[Basileus]

Spanielka - consumables, she does not count.

[Pimply]

Spanielka will run at a speed of 60 km per hour in front of the machine and still have time to look for mines? Oh well

[Roll]

And why did the spanielki run in front of the armored car, as soon as the driver noticed that something suspicious, the dog handler and the spanielka were examining the dumb section, and the machine gunner was covering. Normal situation, but which is better? As for the suicide bomber, so a sapper and so a suicide bomber such a profession.

[Pimply]

Yeah. And if the driver did not notice anything suspicious?

[il grand casino]

Quote: Rolm

And why did the spanielki run in front of the armored car, as soon as the driver noticed that something suspicious, the dog handler and the spanielka were examining the dumb section, and the machine gunner was covering. Normal situation, but which is better? As for the suicide bomber, so a sapper and so a suicide bomber such a profession.

And if the carrier does not notice anything suspicious? uuuupsss ... so chtoli?

[Roll]

I agree, of course, Khan, but for that there is such a thing as professionalism and good preparation and training, and if the driver took half a liter on his chest, there are no traffic police, then yes u-PPPSSS.

[Dwarfik]

Quote: Basileus

Tigers have no mine protection. This is the only complaint against them, by and large. As an analogue of Iveco, the Tiger-6A is developed, which has an appropriate level of protection. But this machine has not yet been tested, so all its advantages are still on paper. Well, the Wolf is still there, yes.

And who prevents the development of a sufficient number of modifications of the Tiger at all? Initially, if you plunge into the origins of the creation of the Tiger armored car, it was created for special forces and internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and later in the army segment. That's when they make proper protection for him, then I'm sure all disputes will stop!))

[Basileus]

That is WHEN they will do, then there will be ground for thought and it will be possible to say that ours is better. But where is this "our"? Lynxes in Russia have been tested since 2009 - during this time we have not yet had a single machine that has passed all the tests and could replace them.

[Pimply]

Well, at least a technological lag. Tiger 6A has long been declared - but it is all gone, and not, and not ... But the Tiger was created not for special forces, but for the UAE

[ed65b]

Quote: Ruslan67

If you cannot get rid of the contracts, they will send them to the riot police somewhere in the south and close this topic

Damn thought the same thing. You need to ride on your own.

[Lopatov]

His not yet.

[Pimply]

Yeah. And the fact that there is no anti-mine defense on this - do not care. The soldiers, they see, are not considered their own.

[duke]

Yes, in fact, Iveco was bought for cutting, at a price two times higher than the Italians supplied to other importers, and there were no special bells and whistles so that it would be possible to justify such a difference in the price. So the question pops up by itself, what’s the matter of Zin? Looks like a fortuneteller do not go. A similar story with the Mistrals, the price is also sharply overpriced. And the question of why such a machine is needed - for the price of which you can buy 4 of our Tigers, Taburetkin’s specialists, thank God the former female battalion’s ministor (the minister is right when it’s), answered that they’ll come up with why ... So if Taburetkin was cooking 200 thousand euros in one car, and they were bought by several thousand, and on the Mistrals no less than 100-150 million per piece, then he feels quite well - he’ll have enough for old age.

[Lopatov]

Who sawed? Putin with Berlusconi? Just think a little, what kind of "corruption" and "kickbacks" can be?
The decision on "Iveco" and "Mistrals" is political. And they were accepted at the highest level.

Well, the price is driven up by a "domestic manufacturer" Or rather, a "domestic assembler"

[duke]

Of course, Putin himself did not sign and did not monitor the contract, did not bargain for the price, even if it was a political decision - to buy cars is simply not his level - and I am far from thinking of blaming the respected GDP or Berlusconi for this small thing. The fact is that Serdyukovsky Oboronservis purchased Lynx without a tender, bypassing Rosoboronexport, at prices of 250 thousand euros per unit, higher than Italians export to third countries. According to NG, in the near future, the Main Military Prosecutor's Office (GWP) and the Investigative Committee of Russia (ICR) will deal with the deal concluded in 2011 by Oboronservis with the Italian company IVECO Spa to supply assembly kits of M65E19WM LMW vehicles for the needs of the Russian army. Probably a criminal case will be instituted under Art. 159 h. 4 (fraud on an especially large scale) and Art. 194 (tax evasion). According to an informed source of the newspaper, Art. 275–276 of the Criminal Code (treason to the motherland). So what I thought before writing.

[Lopatov]

Quote: duke

The fact is that Serdyukovsky Oboronservis purchased Lynx without a tender

.
Cool. And who else could have supplied us with Iveco LMV car sets, besides the Italians? Cheater intermediaries?

[duke]

whether you are a fool, or you are mocking with common sense, you are talking about Thomas, and you are talking about Yerema. Any self-respecting country, if you need any equipment that it itself does not produce, announces tenders. Such machines are produced not only by Italians, but also by the French and Germans, for example (and the German Dingo, for example, is considered more advanced than Iveco), as well as our own country, which is perhaps the most important. The equipment is tested and selected according to various technical characteristics, the novelty of the technologies used, as well as the price. I said that there was no choice, because the tender was not held. At a cost of Lynx 23 million rubles. The tiger was worth 5 million and do not tell me that the Tiger, if some indicators did not suit the customer, for the money, it was impossible to pull up to the desired level. By the way, the requirements for insufficient protection of the Tiger, at that time, were rolled out precisely by the Ministry of Defense, and for the Ministry of Internal Affairs protection was established in the 6th grade, i.e. the one you need.

[Lopatov]

Do you see the turn of those who want to sell us light patrol cars with anti-sabotage protection? Deign to name at least one other participant besides Italians.

And do not about the Tiger, he has protection against bombings NO

[duke]

projects of this kind and generally any import or export transaction is accompanied by such a thing as a commission. Some consider this a crime, but this is the norm for this business. For the arms trade, this is the norm. Commissions are different. In Italian-Nigerian transactions, commissions can reach up to 60%. Speaking about a price of 1 million euros, it should be mentioned that the Ministry of Defense, and specifically the former head of the Russian Armed Forces, Army General Vladimir Popovkin, had a price of 200 million euros . In general, for the French Navy, such ships are built for 980-300 million euros maximum, depending on equipment. Here, taking into account the training of the crew and some technology transfer, there may even be assistance in building the infrastructure, if it is being built, of course. Okay, you can allow the price to escalate to 400 million euros, but there was an intervention by the political leadership of Russia, represented by former President Medvedev, who ordered the Ministry of Defense to conclude this contract in a two-week period. As disciplined military officials were forced to go for it and agree to French conditions. Thus, by one verbal order of the former, fortunately, President Medvedev, the Russian taxpayer lost 500 million euros. This is true by the way, among other things.

[Lopatov]

Sorry, but Popovkin and others are not suicides to charge commissions from a contract lobbied by Putin.

[duke]

I repeat to you once again that Putin himself does not sign contracts, does not issue technical specifications, and does not bargain at a price, this is not his concern. This is done by specialized, trading organizations - I hope you understand? And Sperdyukov felt quite confident at that moment. If everything was so cool, he would not have been removed and Shoigu would not have canceled his decisions on the Lynxes and the 2nd remaining Mistral.

[Lopatov]

Certainly not his concern. He will simply take the signatory contract, which is waiting for the commission, and hang it by the balls. And that’s it. Is it really hard to realize? You don’t remember that on the same Mistrals the final price was announced during the meeting between Medvedev and Sarkozy?
Or do you really want to think that there were kickbacks, that you stopped perceiving the facts?

[Rusi dolaze]

Yes, there are already domestic cars, and the Italians fat-man Serdyukov ordered these kickbacks.

[Lopatov]

You are wrong. Not yet. Perhaps the KamAZ will soon be born. Or "Protection" will bring its to mind.
And there is little hope for the "Tiger" manufacturer, the "MIC" company.

[svp67]

Ministry of Defense refuses to "Lynx"?

In this story, everything is somehow ... "stupid." The money has been spent, the cars are not really needed, then the question arises, who is specifically responsible for the fact that such a batch was ordered? Who is responsible - material or criminal - for making such a decision?

[Pimply]

Cars are needed. The question is populism.

[mithridate]

own technology must be developed and manufactured - this is an axiom

[Pimply]

And yet, first of all, you need to look at the interests of soldiers, not manufacturers - this is also an axiom. Whose is stronger?

[Russ69]

Quote: Pimply

Funny, but this is not an axiom. In the USSR, military equipment was regularly purchased abroad and did not frown.

All that was purchased was from the Warsaw Pact countries, and they seemed to be their own, the United States did the same.

[Pimply]

What bet? ;)

[dima1993]

Iveco Inarmal! it is necessary to send all these cars to Syria! for checking! then everything will become clear who is better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[True]

It would be better if at first we learned how to build normal cars, and not all sorts of BMP-BTR coffins on wheels.

[sub307]

"The source of Rosinformburo did not specify the reasons for this decision, nor did it name the further fate of the purchased and built machines."
Yes, they will find use, there are more generals in the center than lieutenants in some "not close" garrison - they will go hunting on them.

[Lopatov]

No, they’ll send to the Caucasus. Maybe at least someone is alive thanks to these machines. They are not animals.

[nezloy]

Lopatov: I would gladly have seen you and the author of this adventure with a shitty machine on a patrol in Chechnya under fire from a group of militants. The main firing unit in modern guerrilla warfare is the DShK, RPG-7 and 23mm anti-aircraft gun. None of this triad holds this sad and will not. And no one will use land mines less than 20 kg either. This car will fall apart from the first kick. As well as all sorts of armored personnel carriers and stupid bloopers BMP. The very concept of the "light" ersatz-armored personnel carrier is flawed. It is enough to look into what stream of disappointments the idea to build a wheeled Beter in the States poured out. On no point other than "having wheels" did it meet the military's expectations. See how fun our BMPs are burning in Damascus and Aleppo. All for one reason - the generals stubbornly do not want to provide soldiers with reliable and well-protected armored vehicles. Even Sweden has taken up an infantry fighting vehicle weighing 40 tons. Israel has been making such machines for a long time. And only to ours it does not reach that the life of 10 soldiers costs more than 40 tons of iron.

[IsailoR]

I still can’t forget the Lynx megafail at the exhibition in N. Tagil.