Military Review

Modernization of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov": the contract is signed

123
A few months ago, the future of the Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear missile cruiser was announced. It was alleged that in the near future it will be repaired and will return to the naval system by 2018-20 fleet. The technical and economic details of such a project were not disclosed, and the next years were determined by the start date of the work. Last Thursday, June 13, the press service of the Sevmash shipyard published new data on the modernization of the cruiser. The plant and the Ministry of Defense signed a corresponding contract and will begin its implementation in the very near future.


Modernization of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov": the contract is signed


As follows from the official information, so far only the main agreement has been concluded, in accordance with which work will be carried out. At the same time, the project itself, in accordance with which the ship will be modernized, does not yet exist. The Minister of Defense has already approved the basic tactical and technical requirements for the upgraded cruiser, but the contract for the development of the modernization project has not yet been concluded. The project developer will be the Northern Design Bureau (St. Petersburg). This organization in its time created the 1144 “Orlan” project, in accordance with which the cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” was built, and now it will be engaged in its updating and modernization.

While the Ministry of Defense and the Northern PKB are negotiating the terms of the contract, preparatory work continues on Sevmash. Factory workers are preparing the process equipment, as well as check the various components and assemblies of the ship. A preliminary survey of the cruiser will identify the main shortcomings and take them into account in a timely manner when developing a modernization project. The following year, it is planned to dock the ship in the waterworks of the enterprise (a drained bulk basin of 159x325 meters in size). Prior to the commencement of this procedure, the Admiral Nakhimov will stand at the quay wall of the plant, where it has been located since the end of the nineties.

In the course of the upcoming work it is planned to dismantle a large number of components and assemblies of the ship. Due to the lack of timely full-fledged service, the Admiral Nakhimov is currently in serious condition. According to Sevmash S. Khviyuzov, head of the repair, modernization and warranty supervision of the plant, 70% of the removed equipment will have to be replaced. It is not difficult to imagine the scale of the forthcoming works. The first deputy general director of the company, S. Marichev, compared the scope of work on the modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov with the recent repair and renovation of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya.

The financial details of the upcoming modernization have not yet been officially announced, which has led to the emergence of various opinions and assessments. For example, in the official blog of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, the figure in 50 of billions of rubles that is planned to be spent on modernization is given. Official confirmation or refutation of this information has not yet been, and therefore this information is purely evaluative. Moreover, at present it can be assumed that the customer represented by the Ministry of Defense and the performers represented by Sevmash and the Northern PKB have not yet decided on exact figures. In the case of deep modernization will need to conduct a thorough analysis of the state of the ship. The results of such a survey can seriously affect the estimates, and under certain circumstances, and make the project abandon.

The technical details of the modernization were also not disclosed. Earlier in the media, with reference to sources in the military and industry or without them, it was claimed about the installation of new electronic systems, as well as a radical upgrade of the armament complex. According to some data, the updated Admiral Nakhimov should receive the Caliber missiles instead of the existing Granites and several new anti-aircraft missile systems, surpassing the already installed weapons. Some time ago it was mentioned in a number of sources that the ship could transport up to 300 missiles of all available types. In view of the time of the appearance of this information, it is difficult to say how much it will correspond to reality. It is likely that during the preliminary study of the modernization project, similar options were also considered.

Heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" (formerly Kalinin) of the 11442 project in a sludge at JSC PO Sevmash. Severodvinsk. Photo, presumably 2009 of the year (c) JSC PO Sevmash


However, the greatest interest is not the cost of the project and its technical details, but a factor combining both these aspects - expediency. Disputes about the need to modernize the cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” have continued since the first news about similar plans, and now flashed with a new force. Numerous discussions argue for and against updating the old ship, supported by facts and analytics. At the same time, the arguments of both sides look plausible and logical.

Opinion about the need for modernization and the return to service of the "Admiral Nakhimov" is supported by several facts. First of all, it is noted that in the course of work on upgrading a heavy nuclear missile cruiser, it will not be necessary to build a new building. In fact, the whole modernization will consist in the replacement of equipment and some repair or alteration of the ship's design itself. It is impossible to exclude the possibility of serious processing of the structure, but under certain circumstances it will be much cheaper than building a new ship of a similar class. The second argument in favor of modernization - the prospects of the ship. The nuclear power plant gives the cruiser high running performance, which, in combination with the new weaponry, will give it a combat potential sufficient to serve for the next 15-20 years.

Opponents of modernization also provide reasonable arguments. For example, they claim that the upgrade of just one heavy nuclear missile cruiser will cost the same amount as the construction of several frigates of the 22350 or 11356Р / M project at once. Having smaller sizes and displacement, these ships, however, will carry the same armament and, probably, a similar complex of radio-electronic equipment. Naturally, several smaller ships will be able to simultaneously perform more tasks than one large one. The second claim for the update of "Admiral Nakhimov" concerns the final cost of such a project. As practice shows, the cost of any construction and modernization tends to gradually increase due to the constantly emerging unforeseen problems. Therefore, now it is impossible to say how the current estimated 2018 billions will grow by the year 50.

It is worth noting that the issue of the expediency of such large expenses is the main topic of all discussions. At the same time, opponents of modernization speak not only about the estimated amount of the contract, but also about the increase in the actual cost of work. For example, during the repair and renovation of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, the financial aspects of the project were repeatedly revised and the final cost of the ship was noticeably higher than originally planned. According to opponents of the modernization of "Admiral Nakhimov", the Russian cruiser will not be able to avoid this. Proponents, in turn, point out that the Vikramaditya update was the first such project in several decades. During work on an aircraft carrier, Russian shipbuilders gained the necessary experience and therefore can now quickly and efficiently upgrade the nuclear-powered missile cruiser.

Judging by the duration and progress of the discussions, the question of the need to repair and modernize the heavy nuclear missile cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” is really complicated and ambiguous. For every argument there is a counterargument and this only provokes the continuation of the discussion. However, the message of the press service of Sevmash clearly and clearly speaks of the position of the Ministry of Defense. The signing of the contract for the work clearly shows that the leadership of the military department and the command of the navy see the need to return the warship to service. So far, one cannot rule out the possibility of abandoning these plans due to an unsatisfactory state, but such a development is unlikely, since the Admiral Nakhimov was chosen for modernization, including because of an acceptable condition.

Over the next months, the staff of Sevmash, Nevsky PKB and the Ministry of Defense will determine the details of the modernization project and begin major work. It is already clear that the project will be difficult, time consuming and expensive. I would like to hope that the Ministry of Defense carefully analyzed all the arguments for and against the modernization of the cruiser and the investment of tens of billions of rubles will be fully justified.


On the materials of the sites:
http://sevmash.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
http://izvestia.ru/
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  1. Ivan79
    Ivan79 17 June 2013 07: 45 New
    19
    Good news. Seven feet under the keel after upgrading! Let fear inspire you. smile
    1. Sakhalininsk
      Sakhalininsk 17 June 2013 08: 34 New
      22
      This is not just good news, it’s great. Our fleet has not been replenished for a very long time and has not made deep modernizations of existing ships in the ocean zone. Let us hope that by the 20th year the four Orlanes will plow the oceans to our joy, and the enemy will be in the back of the neck.
      1. cartridge
        cartridge 17 June 2013 09: 15 New
        +5
        the ship will be able to carry up to 300 missiles of all available types.


        Very worthy indicator! What for!
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 17 June 2013 11: 25 New
        12
        Quote: ....
        For example, they argue that updating just one heavy nuclear missile cruiser will cost the same amount as building several frigates at once


        Then update the managers who buy Mistral abroad peregrine falcons Beretta Lynx and that's enough for frigates and for this handsome
      3. old man54
        old man54 17 June 2013 11: 55 New
        0
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        Let us hope that by the 20th year the four Orlanes will plow the oceans to our joy, and the enemies to the back of the neck.

        I think that about all 4 you got a little excited! Alas and ah! One of them, the very first, Kirov, when launched, is in a terrible state and will certainly not be upgraded. And he is already over 30 years old, so ...
    2. klimpopov
      klimpopov 17 June 2013 09: 24 New
      +5
      What is interesting with Kirov?
      And in the photo, as I understand it, Admiral Gorshkov? (019 is the bottom photo, the first two photos of Kirov are 099) The same state is not so hot ...
      1. Manager
        Manager 17 June 2013 10: 16 New
        +4
        Fuckin how sorry for the ships! What kind of country do we have? What we have is not appreciated. Losing crying. Or until the roasted rooster in OPU pecks!
        Kirov was generally a mega project. His triple pity!
        1. Santa Fe
          Santa Fe 17 June 2013 12: 36 New
          +5
          Quote: Manager
          Fuckin how sorry for the ships! What kind of country do we have? What we have is not appreciated. Losing crying.

          Kirov is already 33 years old - his ship has served
          1. mark1
            mark1 17 June 2013 19: 49 New
            +6
            For ships of the "Orlan" class, 33 years old is not age - from 50 and further according to the situation. Considering the current state of our shipbuilding (something like new in the near future, and perhaps in the distant future, we will not be able to build) it makes sense to restore and modernize these beauties, the same applies to "Kuza", pr 941 and to a lesser extent to "Atlanta "(for them, of course, 50 years is the limit). However, the absence of any zeal for the restoration of all this "economy" is alarming. After all, talks about the upcoming modernization have been going on for a long time (8-10 years) and so far no measures have been taken to preserve them on the territory of the plant (it seems that, on the contrary, everything was festering on purpose). Until now, there is no clear (or rather not any) idea of ​​what we want to see after the modernization ... All the babble about 300 missiles on board is not serious (Peter the Great - 20 Granit, 96 С- 300F, 128 "Dagger", 20 - "Waterfall" - a total of 264 not counting the missiles on the ZRAK.) There is no sign of a qualitative change - there are no missile defense systems, no hypersonic anti-ship missiles, no weapons based on new physical principles, no robotic underwater and flying vehicles, but it is possible under the guise of "modernization" to throw out 70% of the equipment, put something similar (slightly newer), master 50 billion and get the same eggs, only in profile. I mean that I am not against modernization, hands and feet - for. But if we want to renovate and leave in the end what was conceived before us - this is one price and we must use the most old equipment, if we want to get something outstanding as a result of modernization, then 50 billion + - 20 will justify themselves with interest.
            1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
              NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 June 2013 21: 41 New
              -1
              I think the explanation is simple. Reconstruction is that niche where it is not possible to take into account cash flows, and therefore 50 billion is just the beginning to the final, it will be more than one hundred billion .... and with new construction it will be harder .... and most importantly, will the game cost 20 or more , taking into account the repeated postponement of the terms, year to 25 ......
      2. huginn
        huginn 17 June 2013 11: 20 New
        +1
        Gorshkov is a frigate of project 22350, and Kirov is Ushakov, who seems to be no longer restored, like Frunze-Lazarev.
        1. old man54
          old man54 17 June 2013 11: 58 New
          +3
          Quote: huginn
          Gorshkov is a frigate of project 22350, and Kirov is Ushakov, who seems to be no longer restored, like Frunze-Lazarev.

          I agree with Kirov, but Lazarev, why ??? He is not so old yet, his condition seems to be more or less. Money?
        2. klimpopov
          klimpopov 17 June 2013 12: 04 New
          +2
          In fact, all the ships of the Orlan project are different and were created on the same platform, so to speak.
          My sorry, this is Lazarev 019 number. And it seems like he is already standing against the wall ...
          But for that matter Gorshkov
          But in fact only Peter is alive from this project
      3. huginn
        huginn 17 June 2013 11: 21 New
        -17
        Here is Gorshkov
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 June 2013 11: 31 New
          12
          Quote: huginn
          Here is Gorshkov

          wassat
          This is not a FRIGATE of project 22350 Gorshkov, but KORVET of project 20380 "Guarding"
        2. katran666
          katran666 17 June 2013 11: 57 New
          +8
          dear, before you post, learn the materiel. you posted a project 22380 corvette "Guarding". Gorshkov is standing at the wall of the plant, the crew has settled in, but this is how we will not see him soon on the roadstead
          1. Santa Fe
            Santa Fe 17 June 2013 12: 42 New
            +3
            Quote: katran666
            dear, before you post, learn the materiel. you posted a project 22380 corvette "Guarding". Gorshkov stands at the wall of the plant

            Yes, with regard to updating the Russian Navy - there is something difficult to cross

            Three small corvettes and an unfinished Gorshkov box (the miracle has been under construction for the eighth year)
      4. Andrey77
        Andrey77 17 June 2013 12: 57 New
        +3
        Kirov in the Admiralty Shipyards (St. Petersburg). Condition - easier to cut. :(
        1. old man54
          old man54 17 June 2013 23: 18 New
          -1
          Quote: Andrey77
          Kirov in the Admiralty Shipyards (St. Petersburg). Condition - easier to cut. :(

          sad of course, but what to do.
        2. stjrm
          stjrm 30 June 2013 18: 55 New
          0
          This is where is he hiding there? Something I did not see him there.
          Maybe they have beguiled what?
      5. Kavtorang
        Kavtorang 18 June 2013 00: 40 New
        0
        Lazarev in Strelok Bay. A sad sight. Fuck you confused. The 100th paratrooper brigade is on the right.
      6. Gans1234
        Gans1234 8 September 2014 21: 08 New
        0
        Write off Kirov.
        And Lazarus probably too
    3. Truffoff
      Truffoff 17 June 2013 11: 06 New
      11
      Quote: Ivan79
      Good news. Seven feet under the keel after upgrading! Let fear inspire you.

      And don’t believe that a lot of money is needed. The state’s money is $ 500 billion and inflation eats up several billion every year, just like that, without spending anything last year 4 (!) Billion evaporated. And at TARK, $ 1.5 billion is being squeezed. Businessmen x..you.
      1. Per se.
        Per se. 17 June 2013 11: 25 New
        +3
        Quote: Truffoff
        Businessmen x..you.
        This is for sure, especially since marine technology is rapidly becoming more expensive. What else I would like to add here - would change the name after modernization to "Rurik" or something other than "Titanic". And what did you decide on the remaining two cruisers? Than to break, they would then have converted at least one into a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier-helicopter carrier, there were many similar aircraft carriers-alterations in the Second World War, and they justified themselves then.
    4. bereg
      bereg 17 June 2013 13: 21 New
      +4
      with 500, brahmos, caliber, radar Voronezh, a good hangar for helicopters and drone, composite superstructures, new shafts and boilers in the principe everything is there, but the scope of work is really big, so the beginning has been laid, success to the carabel!
      1. Ruslan_F38
        Ruslan_F38 17 June 2013 19: 39 New
        +3
        What will be modernized and repaired is certainly good, but why for so long (7 years) and not all eagles? And it’s definitely necessary to put into operation, not only tomorrow, but yesterday.
  2. Dima190579
    Dima190579 17 June 2013 07: 52 New
    +5
    The big ship has a lot of voyages. Good luck both to the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov and to all the guys who will serve on it.
  3. UPStoyan
    UPStoyan 17 June 2013 08: 15 New
    +2
    If the ship is modernized in accordance with the initial project, then a powerful combat unit will be able to hit any targets.
    1. bddrus
      bddrus 17 June 2013 15: 09 New
      +2
      and where can I take a look at the initial draft?
  4. Dangerous
    Dangerous 17 June 2013 08: 19 New
    +8
    Of course, a simple layman somehow doesn’t care who swims for several thousand kilometers - several frigates or one cruiser. But I am very pleased to think that Russia still has modern giants that give a sense of pride and sovereignty. This is a symbol of the fact that our state is a maritime power capable of creating such magnificent ships
    1. common man
      common man 17 June 2013 16: 08 New
      +3
      Do not think so bad about ordinary people. We are also not indifferent to the fate of the power.
      Quote: ....
      For example, they argue that updating just one heavy nuclear missile cruiser will cost the same amount as building several frigates at once
      At the head, just of several frigates, there should be a ship of the "Orlana" class. Moreover, only on such ships is it possible to install long-range air defense systems. And until new destroyers are built, the "Eagles" and "Atlanta" are essential.
      1. not good
        not good 17 June 2013 19: 30 New
        +3
        The logic of the manual that 3 frigates is better than 1 cruiser is sad, but why not count on rubber boats ???
  5. igor36
    igor36 17 June 2013 08: 23 New
    +6
    For example, they argue that updating just one heavy nuclear missile cruiser will cost the same amount as building several frigates of project 22350 or 11356R / M at once. Having smaller dimensions and displacement, these ships, however, will carry the same weapons and, probably, a similar set of electronic equipment

    The expediency of modernization should be determined by the tactics of the ship’s use, the autonomy of a nuclear cruiser is higher than that of ships of smaller displacement and the proportion of equipment and weapons placed on a ship of larger displacement is always higher, but we must bear in mind that ships always operate as part of a squadron and have one nuclear cruiser with an escort of conventional frigates, corvettes, etc. you won’t get autonomy gain.
  6. pinecone
    pinecone 17 June 2013 08: 31 New
    +2
    Some time ago, a number of sources mentioned that a ship could carry up to 300 missiles of all available types

    What does "transport" mean, after all, not transport.
  7. lexat7
    lexat7 17 June 2013 08: 31 New
    +3
    With God! To everyone involved in this business, good luck! We believe in you, we will wait for a great cruiser.
  8. Nayhas
    Nayhas 17 June 2013 08: 34 New
    +2
    The waste of non-native means is absolutely useless. Indeed, several 11356 are preferable to one modernized 1144, the cost of modernization of which will increase three-four times. It is also expected that the modernization will be delayed for ten years, after which the funding will cease and no one will know what to do next. It is impossible to compare 1144 with Wikramatitka, they have different power plants, and Gorshok stood in conservation for only seven years, and Nakhimov 14. What is the cost of fussing with reactors and their fittings ...
    1. Rus_87
      Rus_87 17 June 2013 08: 45 New
      +6
      Nothing, nothing, eyes are afraid, but hands are doing! The guys from Sevmash will cope, the main thing is that the management does not change their minds about upgrading the ship.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 17 June 2013 09: 33 New
        +3
        "The guys from Sevmash" have been torturing Gorshkov for many years now, and they have not yet tortured anything sensible ...
    2. Alexxeg73
      Alexxeg73 17 June 2013 09: 14 New
      +3
      Just don't forget about cruising range and autonomy. Each type of ship is designed for a specific task. Project 1144 is an ocean project to gain dominance in the theater of operations. I suppose, "Nakhimov" will be in the Mediterranean Sea.
      1. ATATA
        ATATA 17 June 2013 15: 43 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexxeg73
        Project 1144 - oceanic, to gain dominance in the theater. I suppose, "Nakhimov" will be in the Mediterranean Sea.

        You contradict yourself. The project is oceanic, and a place in the Mediterranean Sea ??? ...
        Maybe send it to the Caspian?
        If they upgrade, it will be, as the Pacific Ocean writes.
      2. sanych
        sanych 17 June 2013 16: 17 New
        +2
        Let the Gulf of Mexico furrow better! And based in Cuba or Venezuela. Moreover, Peter the Great was already marked there!
    3. patsantre
      patsantre 17 June 2013 13: 29 New
      +3
      4 11356 can take only 32 caliber in total ... upgraded 1144 in the future much more. It is able to provide zonal air defense. It has much higher autonomy.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 17 June 2013 18: 10 New
        +3
        Sorry, but ONE ship cannot be in two places at the same time, and there are many tasks in the sea and one ship cannot solve them, and the number of "calibers" is absolutely not important here ...
        1. chunga-changa
          chunga-changa 22 June 2013 18: 56 New
          0
          Maybe finding one SUCH ship in one right place will lead to the fact that many different tasks will not need to be solved. And most likely it is the number of "calibers" that will determine whether he can achieve this goal or not.
  9. pakfa-t-50
    pakfa-t-50 17 June 2013 08: 37 New
    +2
    Good news. We will wait for the modernized Admiral Nakhimov, this ship is great in its class.
  10. discard
    discard 17 June 2013 08: 40 New
    -8
    Nothing modern can be created from the restored old project.
  11. discard
    discard 17 June 2013 08: 42 New
    -9
    Nothing modern can be created from the restored old project.
    1. Yorgven
      Yorgven 17 June 2013 09: 06 New
      +8
      In vain do you think so, its size allows you to multiply increase the simultaneous salvo of air defense missiles.
      If you finish the radar with an active phased array, then the TAPK will be able to track hundreds of two or three targets and simultaneously fire at 50-60, which is quite realistic using the ACS supercomputer. In this case, everything depends on the power supply and cooling of the circuit. Here, a nuclear power plant is the main advantage.
  12. Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 17 June 2013 08: 48 New
    +2
    In a few years from the Accounts Chamber we will find out how much money was stolen during the repair!
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 17 June 2013 14: 12 New
      +1
      it is already possible to begin to consider: As follows from official information, so far only a basic agreement has been concluded, in accordance with which work will go on. At the same time, the project itself, in accordance with which the ship will be modernized, does not yet exist. The Minister of Defense has already approved the basic tactical and technical requirements for the updated cruiser, but the contract for the development of the modernization project has not yet been concluded.
      Those. grandmothers went, and even a piece of paper with a work plan is not yet
  13. Tatar
    Tatar 17 June 2013 08: 51 New
    +2
    to medium-range missiles still add a dozen anti-ship ballistic missiles with a range of 1000-1500, and a couple with a special warhead would be generally an ointment!)
    1. Manager
      Manager 17 June 2013 09: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: Tatar
      to medium-range missiles still add a dozen anti-ship ballistic missiles with a range of 1000-1500, and a couple with a special warhead would be generally an ointment!)


      But what's the point if he is 1 and besides his 7 years in the ranks will not be? This is just a song. The sad song. I understand if they would upgrade in a year! But damn it, 7 years is too much! For 7 years, if you want, you can build the same 3 new ships!
      1. altman
        altman 17 June 2013 10: 00 New
        +6
        so they have been building the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" for 7 years already ... and no end in sight ... and you say 3 nuclear cruisers
      2. leon-iv
        leon-iv 17 June 2013 11: 29 New
        +4
        For 7 years, if you want, you can build the same 3 new ships!
        Tryndet not tossing bags
      3. old man54
        old man54 17 June 2013 12: 06 New
        0
        it was built in the USSR somewhere around 7 years, and today a ship of this class will be built in 20 years, no less!
        1. not good
          not good 17 June 2013 19: 49 New
          +3
          Reference: the aircraft carrier "Kirov" was laid down on March 27, 1974, commissioned on December 27, 1977.
          In the USSR, a lead ship was built in 3 years, and now modernization is planned for 5 years! Degradation indicator! Maybe for the accumulation of experience it makes sense to put the remaining two TAKRs in overhaul in parallel, but not at the USC enterprises, here’s the competition, and it’ll immediately become it is clear who is the most effective owner.
    2. old man54
      old man54 17 June 2013 12: 05 New
      +3
      Quote: Tatar
      to medium-range missiles still add a dozen anti-ship ballistic missiles with a range of 1000-1500, and a couple with a special warhead would be generally an ointment!)

      and what kind of anti-ship missiles with a ballistic trajectory do you propose to put on it, my dear? And anyway, are there anyone in the world? :) Curious :)
  14. Grigorich 1962
    Grigorich 1962 17 June 2013 08: 55 New
    +3
    reborn .....
    1. Manager
      Manager 17 June 2013 09: 54 New
      -2
      Quote: Grigorich 1962
      reborn .....

      If so, we should spend 7 years on repairs, we will soon be so reborn that there will be no reason to be reborn.




      Pedals mixed up sorry Vadivak
  15. keeper
    keeper 17 June 2013 08: 59 New
    +1
    Who will tell you where to read about the options and tactics of its application
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 17 June 2013 12: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: keeper
      Who will tell you where to read about the options and tactics of its application

      This is of course an alternative, but rat. there is grain ...
      http://alternathistory.org.ua/alternativnyi-tarkr-2012
      http://alternathistory.org.ua/novaya-pesnya-o-glavnom-alternativa-2-tarkr-11442
    2. Nayhas
      Nayhas 17 June 2013 18: 41 New
      +4
      The fact is that the ships of pr.1144 were not made clear for what, or rather, as always in the USSR, a cart stood in front, and then a horse. First, a ship was built, and then they began to think of a scope for it. Initially, the ship was intended as a BOD with an atomic power plant, i.e. the direction was clear anti-submarine, but then an incomprehensible thing started, they removed the displacement restriction and allowed all design bureaus to attach their products, which were often at the stage of marking. It turned out something awkward than it is now customary to be proud of, while the development participants themselves called Project 1144 a victory of technology over reason ... It turned out unusually expensive and long, the most ridiculous half of the displacement of Project 1164 cruiser with GTU turned out to be not much weaker than the nuclear power monsters, 16 anti-ship missiles Basalt versus 20 anti-ship missiles Granit, and in terms of speed of construction and operational survivability they surpassed pr.1144 by an order of magnitude. As a result, all three pr.1164 built were alive, and only Petr1144 of the four pr.1 was built, the same Nakhimov lasted only ten years and judging by the fact that he needed serious repairs, for which there were no funds, or the shipbuilders greatly damaged (and they can do it a lot), or they exploited the ship extremely disgustingly.
      1. not good
        not good 17 June 2013 20: 06 New
        +3
        Reference: the lead ship of Project 1164 "Slava" was laid down on November 4, 1976, and commissioned in December 1982. Marshal Ustinov "1978 -1986," Chervona Ukraine "1979-1989
        those. It took twice as long to build than Project 1144 !!! Regarding the Operational Survivability, having given something to the fleet for more than one year, I don’t remember such a ship's characteristics. And about the efficiency of 1144, read at least the memoirs of the first commander of the aircraft carrier "Kirov".
        1. Nayhas
          Nayhas 18 June 2013 09: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Negoro
          Regarding Operational Survivability, I have given something to the fleet for more than one year, I don’t recall a similar characteristic of the ship

          litter it's an aviation term
      2. leon-iv
        leon-iv 17 June 2013 21: 56 New
        +1
        either exploited the ship extremely disgusting.

        EMNIP there were problems with parking like a kuzi.
  16. shamil
    shamil 17 June 2013 09: 01 New
    +3
    It’s expensive and long, but the class of this ship with such weapons is needed at the Pacific Fleet after modernization it will be transferred to the Pacific Fleet and there our fleet is weaker than the Chinese and Japanese. Ships of smaller projects are also laid down and distributed among the fleets.
    With such autonomy and armament, he will significantly increase the Pacific Fleet
  17. Alexxeg73
    Alexxeg73 17 June 2013 09: 08 New
    +8
    The shipbuilder himself and the designer, so glad for such news. Only such ships will not miss the corresponding escort. And at the same time I envy the marine designers taking part in such projects. This is damn interesting and hard work. Good luck to them!
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 11: 31 New
      +2
      Well, why not enough, so I think he will be in a bunch of Nakhimov + Kuzya (Petya will just start a rematch after Kirov) + 22350 2-3 pcs + 3-4 20385+ Mistral + submarines the average rebel can be buried without problems
  18. PROXOR
    PROXOR 17 June 2013 09: 22 New
    +9
    Uniquely upgrade. The cost, of course, will be higher, but the class of the ship itself. To destroy such a ship will have to peep. Orlan himself only by its appearance and the presence of a huge number of weapons will distract a huge number of NATO boats.
    1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
      NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 June 2013 21: 51 New
      0
      This is called ... gigantomania ... not everything that means more is better .....
  19. shamil
    shamil 17 June 2013 09: 29 New
    +6
    I served on the SF 96-98 though it wasn’t on it in the Altai SS, and we went to the shooting range with him. We stood on a barrel near O Kildin
    nakhimov looked like a sea "collos" during the shooting
  20. Manager
    Manager 17 June 2013 09: 41 New
    +4
    YES, they are generally overgrown with land. With our capabilities in 6-7 years, it’s necessary not to upgrade, but to put into operation 2 new similar ships each! And they still have the conscience to declare that we are catching up with NATO and the United States. Yes, at such a pace, we’ll just be dishonored and will be 50 years behind.

    And about the repair and modernization ..... then God forbid (or God forbid) the power will be changed, and God forbid that the ship will be scrapped. It was already passed. Oh, how I do not like all this.
  21. OLDTODD
    OLDTODD 17 June 2013 10: 04 New
    +8
    The project 1144 "Orlan", a very cool and powerful ocean ships. In my opinion, modernization is preferable to something like that in scale we cannot build for a long time ..... But smaller vessels need to be laid in parallel.
    ps While still a boy, I had a chance to visit Severomorsk on May 9 there for the first time I saw "Kirov" - the flagship of the Northern Fleet. Memories of the handsome ship and the fleet as a whole remained for life.
  22. Yuri11076
    Yuri11076 17 June 2013 10: 05 New
    +4
    Great news, these ships, even without modernization, have no analogues in the world, and after modernization, Nakhimov will become the best in its class !!!
  23. little man
    little man 17 June 2013 10: 12 New
    +3
    Upgrade all four! What frigates for the money? Where is at least one 22350?
  24. sashka
    sashka 17 June 2013 10: 46 New
    +3
    Damn Evil is not enough. Everyday business is turned into a global event. Maybe it's time to return to your usual way of life and not shout "Hurray" with or without reason. Like at the NF congress. At first I thought it was filming from Germany in the 30s. The Communists were not smart enough for THIS. And here please ... Some kind of nonsense ...
  25. Mhpv
    Mhpv 17 June 2013 10: 50 New
    +4
    There would be bones, and meat will grow! If the hulls allow you to upgrade the ship, then why not? For some reason Americans do not hesitate to engage in modernization. Is it expensive? Yes, but idleness will cost even more. It will be expensive if you upgrade one, and if then the rest will be all right, because "experience, son of difficult mistakes", if a person needs a family car, he does not take a convertible or a small car, here it is necessary to build new ones, but this is not comparable with the existing ones.
    So good luck to shipbuilders and the fleet, get these unique ships as quickly as possible!
  26. shamil
    shamil 17 June 2013 11: 05 New
    +1
    Nakhimov Ushakov Peter, the fourth?
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 17 June 2013 12: 47 New
      +3
      Quote: shamil
      Nakhimov Ushakov Peter, and who is the fourth?

      "Admiral Lazarev" - Russian heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARK). The second of the four TARKs built at the Baltic Shipyard under the project 1144 "Orlan". Currently incapable of combat. At the Pacific Fleet. "Admiral Lazarev" is now located near the city of Fokino in Strelok Bay on the so-called conservation (quietly rusting).
      TAKR "Admiral Lazarev"

      If the modernization of "Lazarev", which turned 2013 in May 33, still takes place, then it will not be soon. Before him, the current cruiser "Peter the Great", which is in line for the lucky "Nakhimov", will go to the Severodvinsk dock.
      1. altman
        altman 17 June 2013 19: 41 New
        +2
        Last year, the commander-in-chief clearly said that only Nakhimova and Petra would modernize, the other two would be scrapped.
  27. Dimy4
    Dimy4 17 June 2013 11: 05 New
    +3
    All the talk that we do not need such a class comes from the same theme that "we need a small cozy democratic Russia" by a certain Navalny.
    1. sashka
      sashka 17 June 2013 11: 29 New
      +6
      Quote: Dimy4
      that "we need a small cozy democratic Russia" of a certain Navalny

      I repeat .. With all the same "indicators of harm to the Country", Navalny will be put in prison and not Serdyukov .. Agree .. And in this case, all conversations are meaningless ..
  28. shamil
    shamil 17 June 2013 11: 15 New
    +3
    By the way, in the newspaper "star" for 1997 I read about Peter the Great, where the cost of the ship from the project to launching was estimated
    the cost is comparable to the construction of a city of 150 thousand people with all infrastructure, schools, kindergartens and schools
    Since Moscow is rebuilding Surgut the formidable construction of ships and modernization of Russia is quite affordable
    1. ATATA
      ATATA 17 June 2013 16: 03 New
      +2
      Quote: shamil
      Since Moscow is rebuilding Surgut the formidable construction of ships and modernization of Russia is quite affordable

      Or maybe it's better to build a couple of new cities?
      It is tempting.
      The city will then finish building itself, pay taxes, and you will need to spend money on this giant even after construction.
      I read somewhere that building one Typhoon was tantamount to building three KAMAZ factories.
      And so, Typhoons are no longer in service, and Kamaz is still panting and brings money, including hard currency.
      Our industrial base has become very weak, and without it you cannot create a modern army or navy.
      So let’s it be that we sell oil and frighten everyone with old, but BIG ships?
      And how many campaigns did "Peter the Great" make?
      Specialists can tell, did not find an inf in a network.
  29. leon-iv
    leon-iv 17 June 2013 11: 37 New
    +1
    damn how are you tired of the whiners !!!! 111!
    We have been engaged in such ships for the last time 97g, an entire generation of workers has already been replaced.
    Read the initials 70% of the carcass will shake up + reactor restart in fact there will be the newest arsenal ship and KUG from 2 cruisers with an aircraft carrier will dig any European country into the Stone Age, not to mention other Bantustans
    On it, working out a 400ka mess is a very non-trivial task if cho. + Dofig all so good luck.
    1. Manager
      Manager 17 June 2013 11: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: leon-iv
      and KUG from 2 cruisers with an aircraft carrier


      Where is the second cruiser? Where is the aircraft carrier? But Europe can be trampled in principle and without boxes. This is not the USA for you.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 17 June 2013 11: 51 New
        0
        Look, they plan to restore the 1st Nakhimov 2nd Kirov and then drive Petya to modernization.
        by 2020-23 we will get 2 cruisers and a Kuzyu which will also be modernized. they will solve problems with the 22350 serial anyway they’ll go easier than the head one. so KUG will be ololo what + Ash-tree under water + Mistralka such a group will need to be picked up at least 4-5 AUG for their air defense will be barred.
        1. Manager
          Manager 17 June 2013 12: 21 New
          +1
          Quote: leon-iv
          2nd Kirov

          So with Kirov everything seems to be already. In terms of the fact that they will not repair it and upgrade it?
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 17 June 2013 12: 24 New
            0
            on specialized resources they say that Kirov has a better condition than Lazarev
            1. old man54
              old man54 17 June 2013 12: 47 New
              0
              Quote: leon-iv
              on specialized resources they say that Kirov has a better condition than Lazarev

              how so? Is he "Kirov" the oldest of them? Why is the condition better? Explain if you know.
              1. leon-iv
                leon-iv 17 June 2013 12: 56 New
                +1
                Why is condition better?

                most likely the planned repair took place in the USSR.
              2. bddrus
                bddrus 17 June 2013 15: 15 New
                +1
                we can breakdown what is Lazarev
  30. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 11: 38 New
    +1
    so far only a basic agreement has been concluded, in accordance with which the work will go. At the same time, the project itself, in accordance with which the ship will be modernized, does not yet exist
    IMHO, everyone who is in the know about military shipbuilding has understood everything. Never means never. Farewell to Nakhimov and Lazarev. There will be no super battleships. There will be metal hull structures - $ 4 per kilogram.
    1. old man54
      old man54 17 June 2013 12: 15 New
      +2
      Quote: Kavtorang
      [
      Never means never. Farewell to Nakhimov and Lazarev. There will be no super battleships. There will be metal hull structures - $ 4 per kilogram.

      however, you’re a pissimist, my friend! :) And the world is holding on and moving by unconditional optimists!
      1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
        NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 June 2013 21: 56 New
        +1
        A pessimist is an optimist who has matured ... my friend ...
  31. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 11: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: leon-iv
    restart of the reactor in fact will be the newest ship

    Dear heart, and YOU know what the reactor core is? So that you don't fold your brain, I report: КН -3. This is a special "zone" designed for a specific project. Theoretically, the zone is designed for reloading equipment, practically, hell knows how the Lazarev was unloaded and unloaded, or it was at zero.
    In the state of Roissia there are 1,5 recharge kits of this type of zones. I spoke with the "keepers" of the zones - they are clearly and unambiguously focused on "Peter".
    Why do you think I omitted you?
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 12: 16 New
      0
      In the state of Roissia there are 1,5 recharge kits of this type of zones. I spoke with the "keepers" of the zones - they are clearly and unambiguously focused on "Peter".
      um and do they have different reactors? or is the difference between KN-3-43 and KN-3 so great?
      Threat assessment deep purple
    2. old man54
      old man54 17 June 2013 12: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: Kavtorang
      [Theoretically, the zone is designed for reloading equipment, practically - the hell knows how the Lazarev was unloaded and unloaded - or it went to zero.
      In the state of Roissia there are 1,5 recharge kits of this type of zones. I spoke with the "keepers" of the zones - they are clearly and unambiguously focused on "Peter".

      Of course, I am not special in these subtleties, but is it really difficult to create nuclear materials for this type of reactors according to an existing project? I understand that this requires desire and will, but still ?? Can it really be done now? There are very reactors, civilian nuclear power plants that produce fuel for them!
    3. xtur
      xtur 18 June 2013 01: 00 New
      +2
      I am familiar with reloading machines - if anything, machines for reloading reactor cores. The reactor AZ is very compact, therefore, the machine is also overloaded, and it’s not a big deal.
      So you dear are not a pessimist - you are an alarmist
  32. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 12: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: leon-iv
    by 2020-23 we will get 2 cruisers and a Kuzyu which will also be modernized. they will solve problems with the 22350 serial anyway they’ll go easier than the head one. so KUG will be ololo what + Ash-tree under water + Mistralka such a group will need to be picked up at least 4-5 AUG for their air defense will be barred.

    Stand out, on a tablet operating conditions in six seconds, elementary counter-actions. A couple of MRAU and a dozen diesels in the theater area are enough.
    If you are not ready to start World War III.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 12: 27 New
      +1
      A couple of MRAU and a dozen diesels in the theater area are enough.
      If you are not ready to start World War III.

      Umm, are you talking about AUG? But there are no amers at all diesel boats.
      , elementary counter-actions

      If you can explain.
  33. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 12: 31 New
    +2
    Quote: leon-iv
    um and do they have different reactors? or is the difference between KN-3-43 and KN-3 so great?

    And not a single recharge of the KN-3 reactors was carried out in the Union. At "Atomflot", it seems, the ship OK-700-750 and OK-900 were re-equipped - just, not in the subject of the civilian fleet, I will not talk.
    I am a recharger, I was sent to retrain on KN-3PB equipment. I already left the boats when our guys were returning.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 12: 43 New
      0
      That is, recharging is possible in principle, the question is staff readiness?
  34. old man54
    old man54 17 June 2013 12: 32 New
    +4
    The article is positive, very, "+". It is immediately clear that the Ministry of Defense came to mind, and not thieves and embezzlement! Here not so long ago on the forum, in an article, the fate of the ships of this project was discussed. Pissimism was poured out, Mom, don't worry! :) It was argued that they would never be restored and so on. But no, the ice is moving.
    In fact: when designing cruisers pr.1144, the designers laid down a huge modernization potential, which was one of the conditions of the customer - the Navy! And do not use it now, with our current state of the Navy and the military-industrial complex, especially shipbuilding - CRIMINAL! The ships of this project have local, focal reservation of the most important places of the corps, such as ES and the main armament. Reservation was used for the first time in the USSR after cruisers pr.68bis, which once again speaks of the strength and durability of the cruiser hulls.
    Howls both here on the forum, and from the side of critics of repair / re-equipment that it is more efficient and cheaper to build the same cruiser from scratch is complete nonsense and nonsense. It would have gone wrong with the most powerful shipbuilding industry, as in the USA, for example, but not in our case today for sure. We have newly-minted OJSCs from shipbuilding with corvettes (2/3 thousand tons of displacement) then flutter for 7/8 years, money is stolen there for 500 million rubles at a time, and the construction of such a heavy cruiser would not have pulled from scratch today !! And the MoD with Shoigu in the lead after analyzing the industry understood this and most likely decided to reanimate these cruisers because of this.
    My opinion is that it is necessary to restore, otherwise there will be none (they will die completely), and of course no one will build new ones. It is a pity, of course, that there was no money and determination to re-equip the 2nd nuclear submarine of the "Shark" type ...
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 17 June 2013 13: 12 New
      0
      "Screams both here on the forum and from the critics of the repair / re-equipment that it is more efficient and cheaper to build the same cruiser from scratch is complete nonsense and nonsense."

      "Kirov" is cheaper to build from 0 than to restore. It is necessary to look at the state of a particular unit.
  35. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 12: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: leon-iv
    If you can explain.

    I'll try.
    Need maps: Sea of ​​Japan, Sea of ​​Okhotsk, East China Sea.
    Look at the map: where is Vilyuchinsk and where is Vladivostok - there are no other bases for our submarine forces.
    Further: the boat does not exist by itself, it is not a cat. A diesel engine needs fuel, replenishment of ammunition, it needs the VVD, food and drinking water are needed - this can only be provided by the emergency crew or the coastal base.
    Answering, as part of your question, about counter-actions: the blockade of all straits and the attack of any target that does not recognize itself by radar request.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 13: 01 New
      -3
      the blockade of all straits and the attack of any target that did not recognize itself by radar request.

      And who is going to block whom is Amer (from the category of fairy tales) or are they us (3 world)?
      And which group do you think will be amers to block?
      1. igor36
        igor36 17 June 2013 13: 46 New
        +8
        Quote: leon-iv
        And which group do you think will be amers to block?

        In total, the US Navy in the Pacific has 74 warships, including: 5 aircraft carriers, 12 Ticonderoga-class URO cruisers, 28 Orly Burke-class destroyers, 36 multipurpose nuclear submarines of three subclasses and several types, add here pieces of 40 Japanese destroyers, 10 South Korean ....
        Superiority about 10 times ...
        This is the data of 2008, but during this time the situation has not improved for us.
  36. Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 17 June 2013 12: 50 New
    +4
    It is interesting to know what tasks "Nakhimov" will have to solve

    Alone in the field is not a warrior - for a real naval war (local war on foreign shores) dozens of warships and support vessels are needed

    It also has nothing to do with the country's defense capability - it is impossible to think of a case when the Orlan would be needed to defend our Motherland ... in the war with Georgia, it is ineffective. in the war with the USA - useless (wrong caliber)

    Helipad of one of the "Orlans"
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 17 June 2013 13: 07 New
      +5
      We lost the surface ocean in the late 80s. The demonstration of the flag is already good.
    2. little man
      little man 17 June 2013 14: 09 New
      +2
      And Kuznetsov to accompany or the same Mistral? Amerikosov in the order except berks and ticonderoges have
    3. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 June 2013 14: 27 New
      +1
      in war with Georgia - ineffective

      With calibers, Nitsche is so completely and completely
      From the USA, it depends on where the normul is next to its guides. IMHO they are being prepared for the Arctic. There will be a new division.
    4. NOBODY EXCEPT US
      NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 June 2013 22: 00 New
      -1
      You forgot about show-offs for Vova ....
  37. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 13: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: leon-iv
    the question is staff readiness?

    The question is in handling equipment and in those people who have access to work on it.
    Personally, I have an admission (at KN-3PB), but I'm already retired - and that’s not enough for me.
    1. xtur
      xtur 18 June 2013 01: 08 New
      0
      I’ll pay it off - admission to handling equipment as an insoluble problem of Nakhimov’s modernization!

      Training course for operational personnel for physical laboratory(CF), then they began to be called OYABINs, which do all the overloads at nuclear power plants, took about 1-2 years
      But overloads can be done after the 1st year.
  38. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 17 June 2013 13: 10 New
    +2
    Quote: leon-iv
    And which group do you think will be amers to block?

    They will not collect anything. Enough is that deployed.
    Here, Oleg Kaptsov, has appeared on the site - he will give you the balance of the Navy in the APR without straining.
    1. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 17 June 2013 13: 33 New
      +1
      ATP is not table golf. Everyone has their own serious problems.

      Samurai are shocked by the North Korean zoo = park, hence the interest in Aegis destroyers and SM-3 missiles

      China is building a cheap copy of the US Navy and threatens to fight with Taiwan (which is unlikely - if someday China regains a fugitive island, then only peacefully, like Macau and Hong Kong)

      All this is "dominated" by the Yankees. Large naval bases: Sasebo, Yokosuka, Guam, Pearl Harbor, San Diego

      You can recall the Yankee airbase in Japan:
      Kadena (one of the best ABs in the world), Futemma (naval aviation base and ILC) - about. Okinawa, Misawa - In Northern Japan

      There is AB in the South. Korea (Osan and Kusan)
      There is a large AB on about. Guam (B-2 invisibles fly from there)
      There is a base in Alaska (Elmendorf)

      You have it.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 17 June 2013 14: 12 New
        +2
        By the way, Oleg, what do you think is the composition of the TF?
        1. Santa Fe
          Santa Fe 17 June 2013 14: 40 New
          0
          Quote: leon-iv
          By the way, Oleg, what do you think is the composition of the TF?

          It depends on what TF was going to do

          From what we see and know:
          RPKSN squadron - deployment of strategic nuclear forces
          multipurpose submarine squadron (971, Ash) - SSBN cover, special operations, tracking, prevention of provocations (Japan, DPRK)


          several large surface units (Varangian, modernized BOD or a new frigate). Tasks: flag demonstration, international parades and naval exercises. A good option - Mistral - is cheap and versatile, very capacious, can be used as a transport for the delivery of military or humanitarian aid.

          supply vessels: several naval tankers, a floating workshop, ocean-class tugboats, a marine rescue complex ...

          Coast Guard - Boats and Helicopters

          Sea of ​​Japan and Okhotsk - shipping is developed here, it is desirable to have a couple of squadrons of marine patrol / anti-submarine aircraft for search and rescue operations

          The remaining funds should go to the civilian sector. Otherwise, no Eagles will help - the inhabitants of Primorye, Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands are not that indifferent to Russia (from Moscow to the Urals), they simply hate it and are waiting for unity with Japan
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 17 June 2013 14: 58 New
            0
            From what we see and know:
            RPKSN squadron - deployment of strategic nuclear forces
            multipurpose submarine squadron (971, Ash) - SSBN cover, special operations, tracking, prevention of provocations (Japan, DPRK)

            It’s understandable by sub-melting, but I would add more diesel engines for this theater, they are great.
            several large surface units (Varangian, modernized BOD or a new frigate). Tasks: flag demonstration, international parades and naval exercises. A good option - Mistral - is cheap and versatile, very capacious, can be used as a transport for the delivery of military or humanitarian aid.
            umm have one squadron? it’s kind of not enough considering the life cycle of ships
            The remaining funds should go to the civilian sector. Otherwise, no Eagles will help - the inhabitants of Primorye, Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands are not that indifferent to Russia (from Moscow to the Urals), they simply hate it and are waiting for unity with Japan

            fig yourself this is where such infa? I know people with the Far East have never heard of this.
            1. Santa Fe
              Santa Fe 17 June 2013 15: 15 New
              0
              Quote: leon-iv
              but I would add more diesel engines for this theater, they are great.

              hardly. Pacific Ocean Not For DEPL
              although it doesn’t hurt to have a couple of special boats - secretive, low-noise, for landing agents in Alaska))
              Quote: leon-iv
              umm have one squadron? it’s kind of not enough considering the life cycle of ships

              This is even too optimistic, given the possibilities of Russian shipbuilding.
              Quote: leon-iv
              fig yourself this is where such infa? I know people with the Far East have never heard of this.

              TV programs write, talk and shoot about it in recent years 15-20
              about why a Moscow-Vladik ticket costs 50 thousand rubles.
              about why in the Far East 90% of cars with right-hand drive
              about why 2/3 of the inhabitants of the Far East have never been to central Russia
              about where all the caught fish goes
              that the Russian Federation does not give anything to the Far East, only imposes duties and taxes
              about who delivers humanitarian aid and provides jobs for about. Kunashir and Shikotan
              etc. facts

              at this rate, the Far East will disappear faster than the modernization of Nakhimov
              1. leon-iv
                leon-iv 17 June 2013 15: 34 New
                +1
                hardly. Pacific Ocean Not For DEPL
                although it doesn’t hurt to have a couple of special boats - secretive, low-noise, for landing agents in Alaska))

                Choi then off their shores there they will rustle
                This is even too optimistic, given the possibilities of Russian shipbuilding.

                a question of time for the kraynyak can be 11356 for a while trample and see how the shipyard is entered.
                about why a Moscow-Vladik ticket costs 50 thousand rubles.

                greedy earhooks at the helm of the AK, I generally think it is necessary to introduce foreign carriers into the Russian Federation because they are insolent.
                about why in the Far East 90% of cars with right-hand drive

                Duc Japan at your side KO
                about where all the caught fish goes

                xs in our city there is a DV fish
                that the Russian Federation does not give anything to the Far East, only imposes duties and taxes

                even does not fit
                1. Santa Fe
                  Santa Fe 17 June 2013 15: 44 New
                  +1
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  Choi then off their shores there they will rustle

                  and who will come? and for what?
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  a question of time for the kraynyak can be 11356 for a while trample and see how the shipyard is entered.

                  11356 is not a panacea either. build too long
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  greedy earhooks at the helm of the AK, I generally think it is necessary to introduce foreign carriers into the Russian Federation because they are insolent.

                  alas, no one wants to do this and the Far East lives as a separate country
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  Duc Japan at your side KO

                  And Moscow City is far
                  this is the problem your KO
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  even does not fit

                  the fact that all funds first go to Moscow, redistributed and then subsidies go to all regions is not a secret
                  another thing is that DV wants to steer these flows himself
              2. igor36
                igor36 18 June 2013 08: 40 New
                0
                A post of some kind of custom, you do not accidentally pay a yen fee?
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                about why a Moscow-Vladik ticket costs 50 thousand rubles.

                But how much do you think it should cost?
                Air ticket Moscow-Voronezh costs 7 thousand at a distance of 500 km. To Vladik 6500 km.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                about why in the Far East 90% of cars with right-hand drive

                Because they are cheaper and the quality is good. Bottles from Europe are brought to central Russia.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                about why 2/3 of the inhabitants of the Far East have never been to central Russia

                And how many of them were in Japan?
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                about where all the caught fish goes

                Judging by this, the forests of Siberia should want to join China, the gas Yamal to Europe.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                that the Russian Federation does not give anything to the Far East, only imposes duties and taxes

                For information, the Far East is part of the Russian Federation, and not a separate state, there are enough problems in all regions and in any they will say that they feed the rest of Russia. All the jackals surrounding our country are just waiting for the beginning of various branches such as the Far Eastern Republic to begin to tear off pieces to themselves. This is the beginning to separate, but you will be able to keep it later?
          2. bddrus
            bddrus 17 June 2013 15: 22 New
            +1
            judging by the confident statements you are "both a reaper and a gambler" - on all issues, special and on the military fleet and on the economy of the Far East
            1. Santa Fe
              Santa Fe 17 June 2013 15: 26 New
              0
              Quote: bddrus
              and the economy of the Far East

              What does the economy have to do with it?

              just household facts: airfare, right-hand drive. Just like another country
              1. bddrus
                bddrus 17 June 2013 19: 04 New
                +1
                in the west they ride European used ears, in the east they ride Japanese. the steering wheel here would be completely random, if they were right-hand drive in Europe, then Moscow would be full of such ones.
          3. fzr1000
            fzr1000 17 June 2013 20: 41 New
            -1
            Only an infantile pi-i-i ... or just pi-i-i ... can wait for the "union" of Caucasians with Mongoloids. Are they all like that in the Far East? Well, the locals may be good for slaves to the Yapas and the Chinese, who will not be cut out. Or do we still have people with brains there? This is all from the series "it's time to bring down" and "it's good where we are not."
            By the way, Moscow-Vladik Transaero on 20.06.2013/14000/XNUMX XNUMX rubles, so do not la la. It would be a desire.
            1. fzr1000
              fzr1000 17 June 2013 22: 05 New
              +1
              Oh, it looks like I stepped on someone's corn .... winked
          4. xan
            xan 17 June 2013 22: 39 New
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The remaining funds should go to the civilian sector. Otherwise, no Eagles will help - the inhabitants of Primorye, Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands are not that indifferent to Russia (from Moscow to the Urals), they simply hate it and are waiting for unity with Japan

            Judging by the last sentence, the author is a storyteller and a pistol, the value of the writings is zero.
            need to be treated, although medicine is unlikely to help
  39. jayich
    jayich 17 June 2013 13: 29 New
    -3
    If at least three eagles are in service, this is already excellent.
    Such a thought crept in promising destroyers will not. There will be a modernized Orlan. I will explain why.
    1. To service the fleet you need a huge number of spare parts of different nomenclature.
    2. I hope all the same, "Ukraine" will be completed for the total amount of 4 cr. pr. 1164 in 3 fleets, of which one is always in the middle of the Mediterranean, the rest either on the so. or somewhere else.
    3. We and the Americans had designs for the Arsenals of modern battleships, only the Americans gave it up, and we have the Eagles (in principle, it will turn out after modernization with the arsenal).
    4. Deep modernization is an excellent school and study for "Sevmash", that is, the development of production technology, so to speak, will fill their hands.
    5. Eagles were originally designed with low radar signature ie special coating of the ship itself (a layer of paint and something else), the shape of the hull, add-ons. Here it is your vaunted stealth.
    6. Significantly reduced construction time for new ships ie they worked on a new project for 10-15 years, no less then everything worked out i.e. immediately serial construction on the ship is 6-7 years old and this is already a win for at least five years.
    7. IMHO, it is necessary to build from three to five new eagles, in total we will get 8 (with a successful set of circumstances), why so much? it is planned that 2 AUGs will be created here, two each at AUG and go
    In total, we have 4 kr pr.1164 "Atlant" 8 kr. Project 1144.4, 2-3 aircraft carriers and other trifles, like corvettes and frigates. Now this already looks like the ocean fleet of Py.Sy. BOD forgot to count ...
    And the last argument we can organize is a constant patrol of either the Pacific or Atlantic oceans.
    1. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 17 June 2013 13: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: jayich
      Eagles were originally designed with low radar signature i.e. special coating of the ship itself (a layer of paint and something else), the shape of the hull, add-ons. Here it is your vaunted stealth.

      Tales of the Brothers Grim
      Quote: jayich
      And the last argument we can organize is a constant patrol of either the Pacific or Atlantic oceans.

      Meaning?
      Quote: jayich
      We and the amerikosy had projects of ships "Arsenals" of modern battleships only the Americans scored on it

      Why is that?

      SSGN based on "Ohio" - 154 "Tomahawk" + equipment for special operations
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. jayich
    jayich 17 June 2013 14: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Quote: jayich
    Eagles were originally designed with low radar signature i.e. special coating of the ship itself (a layer of paint and something else), the shape of the hull, add-ons. Here it is your vaunted stealth.

    Tales of the Brothers Grim
    Quote: jayich
    And the last argument we can organize is a constant patrol of either the Pacific or Atlantic oceans.

    Meaning?
    Quote: jayich
    We and the amerikosy had projects of ships "Arsenals" of modern battleships only the Americans scored on it

    Why is that?

    SSGN based on "Ohio" - 154 "Tomahawk" + equipment for special operations

    Yes, no, not tales, take a closer look at the photographs of the Orlanes and look at their angles of inclination and compare with the same project 20385 hi
    I meant surface ships pl. I didn’t take it into account, so to speak, their forced measure was due to strategic offensive arms (to be honest and we wouldn’t be hurt to take their experience crying
    But there is a sense, Japan and China should always be kept at gunpoint, and the fleet should be, albeit not at par with both of them, but not much inferior to what only Japanese burki cost.
    I recalled a case that happened during Soviet times (I read a penitent book I don’t remember): Our Mediterranean squadron was heading its course, where you can’t get the coast guard ship out of the blue, you’re on our radio in coastal waters and so on. demanding a change of course, ours from the beginning sent them to the Russians and the mighty ones again for their well, a couple of six-inch blanks from the Gk from the bow and stern, they neatly put them in, five minutes later, and the trace of that guard was cold. And now we need to return these times when we were respected, though not quickly but surely, and to build our policy as our country needs, and not bend under any mattresses and others like them ..
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 17 June 2013 14: 23 New
      -1
      6 inches? some kind of fairy tales
      1. common man
        common man 17 June 2013 16: 39 New
        +1
        cruisers pr. 68, 68bis. GK 152 mm - 6 inches.
    2. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 17 June 2013 15: 05 New
      0
      Quote: jayich
      But there is a point, Japan and China should always be kept at gunpoint

      with China there is a 3000-kilometer land border))
      Quote: jayich
      which only Japanese burki cost.

      they are not for us. this is against comrade Kim's ballistic discs
      Quote: jayich
      Yes, no, not tales, take a closer look at the photographs of the Orlanes and look at their angles of inclination and compare with the same project 20385

      what are the angles of inclination)))

      A wake trace of a 26-ton monster is visible from an airplane (or from space) a day after Orlan’s passage
      1. sashka
        sashka 17 June 2013 16: 01 New
        +3
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        they are not for us. this is against comrade Kim's ballistic discs

        Interesting .. Did you report this personally or in private? Where such confidence ? Justify ...
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 17 June 2013 16: 08 New
          +1
          Do you think missile defense is able to intercept our missiles? Do not make me laugh. ABM against us is a pure policy.
    3. igor36
      igor36 18 June 2013 12: 05 New
      0
      Quote: jayich
      Yes, no, not tales, take a closer look at the photographs of the Orlanes and look at their angles of inclination and compare with the same project 20385

      A ship with a length of more than 250 m with a highly developed superstructure, all weapons are installed openly, a bunch of radar arrays, and it has EPR like a little less than an American aircraft carrier, hundreds of angular interfaces, and you write about tilt angles.
  42. shamil
    shamil 17 June 2013 14: 56 New
    +1
    China and India bought aircraft carriers from us and upgrade means cheaper to upgrade
  43. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 17 June 2013 14: 59 New
    +1
    I don't know whether it was or not, but after the repair and modernization, the Admiral Nakhimov will go to the Pacific Fleet. After it will be modernized "Peter the Great". He will remain on the Northern Fleet. "Kirov" and "Admiral Lazarev-Frunze" as I do not feel sorry for them, but they will go away on pins and needles.
  44. True
    True 17 June 2013 15: 01 New
    +2
    In general, this is rubbish. Not that I'm against it, but this "modernization" will most likely waste more than 10 years and billions of rubles. And at the exit we will still get an outdated ship.
    1. Manager
      Manager 17 June 2013 15: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: True
      Not that I'm against it, but this "modernization" will most likely waste more than 10 years and billions of rubles. And at the exit we will still get an outdated ship.


      Exactly! And in the appendage, this ship will also be disabled for 10 years!
      It makes sense to build new shipyards and lay 2 such ships! This will be the way out.
  45. sashka
    sashka 17 June 2013 15: 51 New
    +4
    From all the disputes and conversations, it becomes clear that the country lives in the same rhythm with the Putin Youth ... Chatter and a vigorous club ... There are no other arguments .. Unloading the ship from the "stuffing" creates so many problems. Who could, are already old. And "the new ones, they passed the exam, it's even worse. Conclusion .. There will be victims and no one will tell about it, so as not to harm the image of Sho and Pu .. In short, all the conversations in ShoPu ..
    1. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 17 June 2013 16: 12 New
      -1
      Quote: Sasha
      Jabber and a vigorous club ... There are no other arguments ..

      Do you have them?
      1. sashka
        sashka 17 June 2013 16: 19 New
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Quote: Sasha
        Jabber and a vigorous club ... There are no other arguments ..

        Do you have them?

        No, and it cannot be .. You just have to go to the Elections and how hard it was not to think. Before yelling with tears in my eyes at the congress of the "People's Front" ... I have already expressed my position .. Judge them by their deeds and not by their words and promises. What is more ???
    2. Kavtorang
      Kavtorang 18 June 2013 00: 37 New
      0
      I do not consider myself very old - but, the Russian Defense Ministry is no longer needed
  46. Crang
    Crang 17 June 2013 17: 40 New
    -1
    How glad i am If only completed.
  47. xomaNN
    xomaNN 17 June 2013 18: 26 New
    +1
    Sevmash, (I call him the NSR in the 80s habit) a juicy and money order will go to him. But the prospect of upgrading three units of the Kyrgyz Republic is the right decision.
  48. Andrey K.
    Andrey K. 17 June 2013 18: 53 New
    -2
    This Soviet rust trough must be drowned. Instead of new ships, fussing with scrap. And the money will still soprut. They pretend that they are doing something.
  49. PN
    PN 17 June 2013 21: 55 New
    +1
    And for me, a duck to install the C400 + equipment on it and assign it to the space defense forces. That will be the most. In other versions, I don’t see much point in view of its detailing.
  50. Comrade1945
    Comrade1945 17 June 2013 22: 05 New
    +2
    Mouth Front, comrades!
    The news made my day
    I sincerely wish good luck to Sevmash