Military Review

Izhmash turned its attention to the layout of bullpups

53
Recently in the media slipped news that “Izhmash” decided to reconsider its views on weaponproduced in the enterprise. Among other things, it was noted separately that the weapon will now be produced not only in the classical layout, but also in the bullpup layout, which is uncharacteristic of Izhmash products.


Personally, I treat this kind of news, as well as the composition of the weapon itself, in two ways. On the one hand, of course, it is not bad that the weapon will be more compact, but we should not forget about the drawbacks of the bullpup layout, although many of them are not so significant, and the main problems of this layout have long been resolved. So, for example, I consider the main drawback of the bullpup layout to be a window close to the shooter’s face for ejection of spent cartridges, which can bring serious inconvenience both due to the powder gases and when changing the shoulder to stop when shooting. The solution to this problem was the discharge of spent cartridges not to the side, but forward, along a tube running parallel to the barrel. At once I would like to note such a moment as the impossibility of clogging up this tube, and accordingly, jamming of spent cartridges. The fact is that the shells fall out not at all by a self-propelled one, but by receiving a significant acceleration from the bolt moving forward, that is, when moving forward, it not only inserts a cartridge into the chamber, but also pushes the shooting case forward. Thus, the dirt and the earth, pressed in within reasonable limits in the tube, will not interfere with the release of the spent cartridges. But all this was done and invented relatively recently, but the very layout of the bullpup has been used for more than half a century.

Izhmash turned its attention to the layout of bullpupsThe first successful experience of using such a layout in firearms belongs, unfortunately, not to us, but to the British. Torneykroft's cavalry carbine, namely, this weapon was made first in the bullpup layout created in 1901. The designer offered these weapons to the armed forces as being more compact and no less effective and accurate in comparison with the models that were armed. Actually, it was very difficult to call this weapon with a carbine, since the barrel length was as much as 700 millimeters, which is even more than many rifles in service at that time, and from the definition of "carbine" and "rifle" everything should be the opposite . If we compare the weapon with the Lee Enfield Mark 1 rifle, then the proposed sample had an advantage not only in the barrel length (in the rifle the barrel was 527 millimeters long), but in the total length of the 993 millimeter weapons versus 1014 millimeters. The weight of the weapon was the same - 3,4 kilogram. Despite the fact that the weapon made the most favorable impression on the military, it was refused. First of all, it was noted that reloading the carbine was not the most convenient. In addition, the store that was shifted back was of a small capacity (5 cartridges), which could have been fixed, but the fact that it was integral was already a significant drawback, although it was also completely solvable. In general, the carbine flew, but, nevertheless, the weapon in this arrangement was further developed.

Back for the British to be listed and the first sniper rifle in the layout bull-dad SREM-1 chambered for 7,92х57, which was created in 1944 year. The length of the weapon was 965 millimeters with a barrel length of 603 millimeter, the weight of the weapon was equal to 4 kilograms. True, these weapons were also not widely used, and after the release of a small number of rifles, their production was discontinued.

Although the very idea of ​​creating weapons in a bullpup layout was missed by us first, we can boast that it was our gunsmith who made the first machine gun with such a layout. The Korovin machine gun was definitely the first machine gun in the bullpup layout, and it also had a gas chamber with an annular piston around the barrel. Actually the piston and became a weak point of the weapon. Unfortunately, the weapon was completely rejected, because the reliability was very low, because many believe that the first machine in the layout of the bullpup was a different model, although he had problems with reliability.

We are talking about a sample TKB-408, the author of which was German Alexandrovich Korobov. This sample with its own name "Bull" was first presented in the competition for the Soviet Army machine in 1946 year, then, as later, Kalashnikov bypassed Korobov, although the sample TKB-408 showed higher accuracy of fire, but lost in reliability. I think that if the designer had time to finalize his automaton, he could be a serious competitor in the competition for the Kalashnikov, and who knows, maybe the development of domestic automata would go a completely different way. But let's not dwell on these weapons, especially since almost all samples of German Alexandrovich Korobov’s automata are described here in this article.

Despite the unsightly appearance of the first types of weapons, they developed and at the moment the weapons in the layout of the bull-pap can be found as the main weapon of the armies of many countries, and not only in those countries where the armed forces are only for beauty. So the idea of ​​creating weapons in a bullpup layout is quite viable, especially as this has been repeatedly confirmed by domestic samples. So we are waiting for what will please us "Izhmeh" in the near future.

PS According to the above-mentioned samples, detailed articles will appear in the near future.
Author:
Photos used:
guns.ru
53 comments
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  1. ramsi
    ramsi April 8 2013 09: 05
    +5
    if they really want a more compact one, then let them put the store in the butt, although, in any case, the classic layout cannot be improved
  2. Tan4ik
    Tan4ik April 8 2013 09: 14
    +1
    Come up with a type: Bullpup and a side shop)
  3. Canep
    Canep April 8 2013 09: 19
    +6
    I’m not sure that it will be convenient to shoot from such a model in winter clothes. And in order to replace the store, weapons will have to be torn off the shoulder. I think this product will come in handy in police special forces (transient battles in tight spaces, when firing at short distances), the infantry is unlikely to be happy. If you shoot from the BMP (through the embrasures), then all the shells in the face of a neighbor will fly.
  4. radar75
    radar75 April 8 2013 09: 35
    0
    Fashion for bullpups around the world.
    1. Nova
      Nova April 8 2013 09: 36
      +7
      ... passed, to be honest.
  5. Nova
    Nova April 8 2013 09: 35
    +2
    I think it would be very nice to place the store in a pistol grip. The balance of weapons will be improved and its dimensions reduced. But until a qualitatively new cartridge is adopted, it retains the power of an intermediate cartridge, but at the same time with the dimensions of a pistol, this is not possible. There is, of course, an example - AO-46. But the cartridge is still too big for such a layout. By the way - according to the photo of Korobov assault rifles - they simply delight! Especially TKB-022PM2. Man is clearly ahead of his time.
    1. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 8 2013 14: 57
      +3
      But until a qualitatively new cartridge is adopted, it retains the power of an intermediate cartridge, but at the same time with the dimensions of a pistol, this is not possible. There is, of course, an example - AO-46


      The machine of the new generation will have a caliber of about 6,5 mm. Well and what cartridge will be to it, with what ballistic solution - this is already a secret. The cartridges that exist today have already exhausted the possibilities of development and ammunition of a new type and quality is required. I believe that we should return to 6,5 mm caliber cartridges. Under them, exactly 100 years ago, in 1913, the first Russian automatic rifle was created in the Russian Empire - the great Russian gunsmith Vladimir G. Fedorov, his 2,5-line automatic rifle. And the past time, a century of development of automatic small arms, shows that this was the most optimal caliber. By the way, work is also underway abroad on the creation of weapons of a similar caliber.
      There is a steady demand for the SVD sniper rifle, and therefore work on it is quite active. We are also upgrading the SV-98 sniper rifle. We have already created this year a new self-loading sniper rifle according to the bullpup scheme. And we plan to create other rifles for snipers.
      I think that in the summer of 2013 we will already have prototypes of the modernized sniper weapons. They must meet all modern world requirements.
      As for the more powerful sniper weapon, then for the 8,6-mm cartridge .338 Lapua Magnum we already have a SV-338 rifle. And we plan to develop this area in the future.
      / Chief designer of small arms "Izhmash" Vladimir Zlobin /
      1. I think so
        I think so April 9 2013 00: 16
        +2
        If these are really the words of the "chief designer", then I am shocked ... A junior sales manager could have said this ... The chief designer is an analyst of the prospects for the development of methods of struggle and only then, based on understanding such prospects, the creator of weapons samples ... here ... ugh ... "... there is a stable demand, and therefore work on it is being carried out ..." ... With such "chief designers" Russia will always trudge in the very rear of the very back of the apprentice's weapons affairs .. ...
  6. avt
    avt April 8 2013 09: 39
    +3
    "Detailed articles will appear on the samples mentioned above in the near future." ----- Cunningly entices the author laughing , and now the people got embittered by only one easy review. laughing
    1. scrabler
      April 8 2013 10: 16
      +3
      And then))) Without zamanuhi now anywhere wink
  7. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior April 8 2013 09: 42
    +3
    Amusingly smile
    In one of the neighboring topics, where there was a discussion of the AK-12, I somehow hinted that it would be nice to have a "Kalash" poop, for INTO I grabbed the minuses laughing
    All the same, there is something in the "bulldog puppy". wink
    1. Dmitry 2246
      Dmitry 2246 April 8 2013 10: 52
      +4
      I agree with you. When working on technology, the size of the weapon is important in the city. It is necessary to experiment: bulpap, cartridge-free cartridge, it is important to have compact, reliable optics, etc.
  8. erased
    erased April 8 2013 09: 43
    +1
    Anyway, with the bullpup system, the alignment of the weapon is violated. A reduction in the length of the weapon and so it happens, especially the mass of small arms. Amera M4 made, our AK-102, 104, 105. And the stocks are folding, telescopic. Does the army need a new weapon of this type? Let's see what offers will be.
    1. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 8 2013 16: 10
      0
      Yes, here is a completely valid sample. And everything seems to be fine with centering, and a bullup, but not too "exotic", and an increased caliber of the cartridge. It may well go into a mass production.
      Viktor Zelenko, director and chief designer of TsKIB SOO for small arms and cannon armament, demonstrates an ASH-12 assault machine gun chambered for 12,7x55 mm.

      http://army-news.ru/images_stati/avtomat_ASH_12.jpg
  9. as3wresdf
    as3wresdf April 8 2013 09: 57
    -1
    The base of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of all citizens of the Russian Federation on this site twitlink.ws/baza and the main thing was done as if to search for lost relatives, but here is all the information about each of us: correspondence with friends, addresses, phones, place of work, and the worst thing is even mine nudity photo (though I do not know from where ...). In general, I was very scared - but there is such a function as "hide data" of course I used it and I advise everyone not to hesitate, you never know
  10. Fox
    Fox April 8 2013 10: 00
    +5
    struck down, found a panacea: bullpup, bullpup ... well, it’s uncomfortable! The Britons puff, puff ... and the mountain gave birth to a mouse! so here. there would be normal trunks, already from the age of 85 we would run with them.
  11. Canep
    Canep April 8 2013 10: 01
    0
    That's what the Finns did from AK. http://gunsite.narod.ru/valmet82.htm
  12. Beck
    Beck April 8 2013 10: 04
    -1
    Everything goes on as usual. Everything is developing. And some caution in the estimates of some people, I think, is explained by conservatism and habit. Approximately the same as that of the American police, which held revolvers in service until the 1990s, despite their technical backwardness from modern pistols.

    Bulpap is a new, next stage in the development of small arms. And it is more advantageous than the classic layout. And some shortcomings will be eliminated over time.

    And it is excellent that Izhmash took up this new, promising direction. And it will turn out as always. They went in cycles on the Mig-21, which was excellent for its time, and released it to the last, and as a result lagged behind the world military aircraft industry by 20 years. We went in cycles on the T-72 and riveted them with echelons, now we cannot contrast Armat with the latest modifications of Leopard, Abrams, Merkava.
    1. Heccrbq
      Heccrbq April 8 2013 10: 30
      +6
      laughing the result is 20 years behind the world military aircraft industry ---- Facts to the studio!
      1. Beck
        Beck April 8 2013 10: 47
        11 th
        Quote: Beck
        the result is 20 years behind the world military aircraft industry ---- Facts to the studio!


        Well, what are you doing! What do you give? What didn’t leave the house for the last 20 years?

        The F-22 has been flying for about 20 years. The F-35 is so-so, but it is also flying.

        But the T-50 only does taxiing.

        And the classes of aircraft are the same. All fifth generation.
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 April 8 2013 11: 26
          +4
          Beck, what about the MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-29, MiG-31? Or didn’t they exist in nature and were they not in service? The 21st has been in reserve for a long time .... Yes, and as it turned out, after conversion to a new avionics and PNA, it’s still huge ... And it only lagged behind in the 90s, when there was NO funding at all, our 4th generation has been flying for a long time, stay the USSR is alive - for a long time the 5th generation would have done ... ************ liberal democracy ... am Now I have to catch up ... am
          1. Raven1972
            Raven1972 April 8 2013 11: 46
            0
            Our 4th generation has long been flying

            Oyepyatochka))) Our 4th generation has been flying for a long time
            1. Prohor
              Prohor April 8 2013 15: 01
              +1
              No, with a typo better: flies tries! - very life-affirming! good
          2. Beck
            Beck April 8 2013 11: 50
            12 th
            Quote: Raven1972
            Beck, what about the MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-29, MiG-31?


            By and large, they all were catching up with Amer’s developments late in time.

            Rough. MiG-23 caught up with the Phantom. MiG 29 and Su-27 caught up with the F-15, F-16. F-18. The T-50 is catching up with the F-22 and F-35.

            In my opinion. And they caught up with it, only because there was the USSR. Because the socialist economy based on extensiveness, the shaft, and not on the quality and development of advanced technologies, and hindered the production of advanced models.
            1. Raven1972
              Raven1972 April 8 2013 12: 20
              +9
              But you don’t need to tell about quality))) Well, where and where and in the aviation industry (especially in the military) the quality was always an order of magnitude higher than that of Pindo owls .... Otherwise, our planes would not fly for 30-40 years ... And it was not the phantom that was catching up with the MiG-23, but it was created (23rd) just after close communication with the F-15 and F-16 .... And the 29th and Su-27 exceeded everything that NATO had at the time of their adoption, just the F-22 raptor was created as a response to the Su-27 and MiG-29,31 .... They had nothing like these aircraft ... And by the way, the F-22 began to enter service only in 2005, so Fifteen years only prototypes flew (the first flight in 15.) And another interesting fact - they still do not have a similar MiG-1997 ... Although our MiG was created more than 25 years ago ....
              1. Beck
                Beck April 8 2013 12: 41
                14 th
                Quote: Raven1972
                That's just about quality you don’t need to tell


                Sorry the opponent, but you do not tell tales about Soviet quality.

                People bought a Lada, and if they did not tighten all the nuts and bolts, the car crumbled in a month. In aircraft construction, of course, it was better, but also of Soviet quality.

                I have no more reasons. Remain in your opinion, I am in my own.

                And here it is yours that the planes flew for 30-40 years and says that there were no new developments. For 40 years, the aircraft, by world standards, has become obsolete three times in a row, in everything. Armament, avionics, and even on such a conservative part as the fuselage.
                1. fzr1000
                  fzr1000 April 8 2013 13: 08
                  12
                  “And this is yours, that the planes flew for 30-40 years and says that there were no new developments. For 40 years the plane, by world standards, has become obsolete three times in a row, in everything. Armament, avionics and even on such a conservative part as the fuselage."

                  Say it B 52, F 15, F 16, A 10, as well as B747, B737.

                  "People bought Zhiguli and if they did not tighten all the nuts and bolts, the car crumbled in a month. In aircraft construction, of course, it was better, but also of Soviet quality."

                  A simple example. Of 102 IL-86 aircraft, one crashed in flight, and that was due to crew error.

                  PS American cars, as they were brittle, plastic shit, remained in the 21st century. Well, maybe with the exception of some luxury GM models and pickups. Sorry, this is a fact. In our bogus Russia, the people choose either Japan or Europe, at worst Korea. Yes, and in the States too. So there you go.
                2. Raven1972
                  Raven1972 April 8 2013 13: 50
                  +3
                  The fact that airplanes fly 30-40 years old - thank you all the same shit democracy, because they have no replacement, and just the fact that they fly so long without problems just shows the QUALITY of their manufacture ...
                  And about Lada - the answer is simple, they still continue to plow the vast and vast expanses, although they are also 30-40 years old .... And excuse me, Beck, any car requires care, whether it be an airplane or a car or a tank ...
                  hi
                  Oh, and also, comparing a car and an airplane is somehow incorrect, don’t you?
            2. redwolf_13
              redwolf_13 April 8 2013 12: 51
              +4
              Well, especially when you saw and touched Mig25 with your hands, they quietly went crazy. And when Mig29 did what he wanted with their F16, they already hissed through clenched teeth. Well, the MiG 29 overcame the vaunted super duper F117 began to yell and with the help of "traitorous reformers" to destroy our aviation. Stop watching the BBC and the rest of the shit.
              I don’t even want to talk about Mig 31; they have nothing of the kind.
              And even the F15 appeared after the MiG 25 and if you look at the projection of the plane there are a lot of things you can see wink
              1. Raven1972
                Raven1972 April 8 2013 13: 54
                +3
                And just as the amers managed with their B-1B, I’m generally silent - We built and built H / Z that we built .... laughing
        2. redwolf_13
          redwolf_13 April 8 2013 12: 57
          +2
          Brick has also been flying for the last 200 years, but that doesn't make it an airplane. F22 can also fly 20 years to "dream factories" but will not become a combat aircraft
        3. viktorR
          viktorR April 8 2013 13: 17
          +3
          Act, what taxiing? Already it seems like PrNK are testing with might and main armament.
          1. Beck
            Beck April 8 2013 13: 25
            -1
            Quote: viktorR
            Act, what taxiing? Already it seems like PrNK are testing with might and main armament.


            Okay flies. When will the combat units arrive?
            1. redwolf_13
              redwolf_13 April 8 2013 13: 29
              +1
              Gee will learn about this "mattress" when our EAGLES hang on their shoulders soldier
            2. TUMAN
              TUMAN April 8 2013 14: 36
              +7
              Quote: Beck
              Okay flies. When will the combat units arrive?

              Well, what are you talking about, huh? Toko finished the tanks, he took up the planes, a specialist in general! Beck you are the most provocateur! I’ll give an example: Here is a Russian soldier, conscript and part-time mechanic-driver of the T-72 tank, Ivanov, crawled into the Internet and on the site the ax saw the comments of a dear man, under the nickname Beck and the Egyptian god in the avatar! It looks solid, agree! So this comrade, well, it’s possible, sir, I don’t want to offend the respected Beck (suddenly delusions of grandeur) writes that the T-72 tanks are softly said not comme il faut! The soldier, having seen all this, will share from his comrades, and then op and comrade, I apologize, mister (forgot a little) Beck fulfilled his mission, a grain of doubt was sown. And Mr. Beck, received a prize and a ticket, well, say to Haifa or Eilat, eats cookies with jam, and enjoys life! That's something like that, Mr. Beck, and you are telling us here about a healthy dispute and love for the motherland! tongue
            3. viktorR
              viktorR April 8 2013 19: 41
              0
              I just poked you nose (sorry) in your own mistake. What does the time of arrival of the T-50 in part?
    2. TUMAN
      TUMAN April 8 2013 14: 01
      +4
      Quote: Beck
      We went in cycles on the T-72 and riveted them with echelons, now we cannot contrast Armat with the latest modifications of Leopard, Abrams, Merkava.

      Beck modifications, modifications, and not new tanks! And Armata is a new tank !!! New Beck! T-72 also has modifications, and moreover, at the level of these same leopards and abrams, along the way they were designed and developed at the same time! And do not distort the truth here! So dear Beck! I understand that it’s not for this that you write here to praise something Russian, right ?! They won’t give you a prize, yes Beck ?!
      1. Rustiger
        Rustiger April 8 2013 15: 28
        +4
        They won’t give you a prize, yes Beck ?!


        As for the prize, it is unlikely, but the green card can and will receive recourse
        Well, Beck cannot do so without escaping shit through the wattle fence. The ego is poked into the nose with facts, and he rushes like a ram at a new gate.
        Such a masochistic troll fool . . . or trolling masochist wassat

        By the way, Oleg, did you receive my letter through a PM?
      2. Beck
        Beck April 8 2013 17: 02
        0
        Quote: TUMAN
        Beck modifications, modifications, and not new tanks!


        And what do you have for mania. Provocateur, tasks, State Department. Medic I. Read on the page about China China is once again trying .... And in general I will say my position. I am an ardent supporter of Eurases. And I understand that the industrial potential of Russia is higher. I am in favor of overtaking America and restraining China. It will be difficult alone. In a peer-to-peer association is much easier. And if the armament of Russia is better, then it will be better for the EurAsEC. But it really should be better, not with a bang. Such a cheer was in 1941, barely got out. And you have everything finished. If we scream all cheers, not x ... I will not be sensible. There will be complacency. Separate voices create public opinion. Public opinion is forcing officials to act. Do not say that Serdyukov is stealing, say cheers to the minister so that the amers are afraid.

        If f-15 is better than Mig-21 it is better. And if someone reads someone who hasn’t enough intelligence to analyze, I can’t do anything. F-22 is better than Mig-29 is better. Merkava tank is better than T-72 is better. It is somewhere at the level of T-90. F-22 flies 20 years flies. That's when the combat units on the T-50 fly then you can be proud. And to praise the technology of the past decades, only because of their own, this leads to hatred, lag, and defeat. That's what it boasts about, it’s necessary to catch up.

        And when I served as the commander of the T-54 tank, I knew that in many respects my tank was inferior to the American T-60, but certainly not to zero. And this did not reduce my confidence, since there are other parameters and the skill of my crew.

        And our goat is worse than Angora. Now shout that this is not so.
        1. Ingvald_Bueny
          Ingvald_Bueny April 8 2013 18: 36
          +3
          Somehow you have everything turned out "I'm supposedly for, but against".
      3. Beck
        Beck April 8 2013 17: 22
        -3
        Quote: TUMAN
        Beck modifications, modifications,


        Beyond or above, Hippo infu gave that the entire hitch to Izhmashov’s bulpups was purchased from a rotten west.

        Well, why shout awake, let me shout for the company with you.

        You are a hippo provocateur, the State Department pays you a salary, and Jews are fed cookies. We don’t need any hitch, we’ll make a fly out of a nail and it will be better than any foreign hitch. Hippopotamus, why are you, according to Rustaiger der ... you throw through the fence. (My word de..mo, written completely was removed, but I left Rustaiger, I had to cut it) What do you say like a ram. You are a hippopotamus, a trolling hippopotamus. Drive the Hippopotamus to your Africa and do not appear on the Russian site.

        This is yours, Fog, a terrible stock of words.
        1. Ingvald_Bueny
          Ingvald_Bueny April 8 2013 18: 30
          +4
          Quote: Beck
          Beyond or above, Hippo infu gave that the entire hitch to Izhmashov’s bulpups was purchased from a rotten west.

          It happens, for example, during the Cold War, the United States bought titanium for its aviation from the USSR, not forgetting to speak properly about the "Soviet empire".
          1. Beck
            Beck April 8 2013 19: 24
            -2
            Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
            It happens, for example, during the Cold War, the United States bought titanium for its aviation from the USSR, not forgetting to speak properly about the "Soviet empire".


            It happens. Anything can happen. And if now they buy a hitch, they will sort it out and after a while they will do it. And about the hitch, I said to show the inadequacy of URA.
        2. TUMAN
          TUMAN April 8 2013 18: 30
          +6
          Quote: Beck
          Beyond or above, Hippo infu gave that the entire hitch to Izhmashov’s bulpups was purchased from a rotten west.

          Listen Beck! Do you not know that after the collapse of the union, the defense industry was destroyed, that military enterprises were bought up with Western money and went bankrupt so that, God forbid, these enterprises would not produce anything shooting and flying, as well as military! And the fact that there is a T-50 and Borey with Ashen, as well as Yars and Iskander is a miracle! A miracle made by people and patriots of Russia, and you Beck water all this with dermis, and you want, you want! For some weapons, the West still does not reach Russia, and this is in the absence of funding and a total break in cooperative ties! And we can cook up a little piece of food ourselves, but we won’t be able to, so we smog! So Beck! And do not tell me fairy tales about the fact that all the shit poured on Russia is only good!
          1. Beck
            Beck April 8 2013 19: 13
            -4
            Quote: TUMAN
            Listen Beck!


            So it is necessary to enter the Armata faster than the T-50, and not shout that the Mig-21 is still better than the f-15.

            People like you in 40 also shouted that the I-15 and I-16 hawks are better than all Western models. Then it was necessary with blood and then, during the war, to establish the production of Jacob and La.

            But they would not have screamed, maybe they would not have rolled back to the Volga. What history lesson is not good? First you need to do it, then yell.
            1. TUMAN
              TUMAN April 8 2013 19: 22
              +3
              Quote: Beck
              People like you in 40 also shouted that the I-15 and I-16 hawks are better than all Western models

              Well, he made me laugh, it turns out that you do not regret the stomach, only so that the armata and the T-50 go into operation! laughing
            2. Raven1972
              Raven1972 April 8 2013 21: 27
              +4
              Excuse me, but no one told you that the MiG-21 is better than the F-15, you should not come up with ... They told you in plain text that in the 80s we already had 4th generation aircraft in all respects superior to the F-15 and F-16 and you trynd about the MiG-21 ...
              You probably just do not know anything other than the MiG-21 .... As well as the history of aviation ....
          2. Ascetic
            Ascetic April 8 2013 20: 40
            +7
            Quote: TUMAN
            So Beck! And do not tell me fairy tales about the fact that all the shit poured on Russia is only good!


            Come on, Fog, better give him a disk with the "Top Gun" file let the person rejoice ... You can also talk about unsinkable aircraft carriers and wonder tanks in addition ... the result, although there are few people left (some are not there and those are far away) .. But what about the amers? One Top Gun, in fact, remained ... The veterans of the military-industrial complex said if not for Gorbachev by 80. in the quality of weapons and military equipment, we would definitely outstrip the Americans ...
            Alas, the sausage won, but that's another topic ... One hypersound was 11 KB and "firms" and now there really were two left ... Plus, Ukraine was irrevocably lost, and this is at least a third of the total potential of the military-industrial complex. If now Yuzhmash with Pavlograd and Arsenal, together with Yars and Voevoda, would be replaced ... And Bek, he is Anubis, in fact, the work is hard without cannabis, judging by some comments, too, could not do ...
            1. Rustiger
              Rustiger April 9 2013 08: 15
              +1
              Alas, the sausage won, but that's another topic ... There were 11 KB and "firms" for one hypersound, and now there really were two left ... Plus, Ukraine was irrevocably lost, and this is at least a third of the total potential of the military-industrial complex. If now Yuzhmash with Pavlograd and Arsenal, together with Yars and Voevoda, would be replaced ...


              And I have such another aspect "on the tongue", Stanislav.
              All computers have video cards, as one of the elements of a modern system. One for 1000, the other, like for me for 14000 - it all depends on the goals and purpose of the computer. And there are such ones on sale (do not count them for advertising) -

              http://www.citilink.ru/catalog/parts/videocards/610379/

              For 180 thousand little thing. There, in the "reviews" there is one comment, its meaning is that "if such cards were on computers in research institutes (especially in the military industrial complex), at least two, then the flyers would now use devices not 5, but 25 generations." It also applies to everything else. And Russia has always had enough brains !!! There is not always money. ... ...
              You understand, insignificant territories, scarcity of resources. . . sad
              I mean that Mishka-Proshka recently built a "dispensary" near Lake Baikal (with golf courses, stables, and so on.) The cost of a weekly "voucher" for a family of a worker of "Norilsk Nickel" is almost ONE MOULYON!

              P.S. Who can appreciate humor, and who has a depressed state in the morning - read the comments there. Smile robustly, and "raise" self-esteem. ... ... hi
              One such
              Advantages: In winter, the whole family fries kebabs, delicious.
              Disadvantages: As a repayment of the electricity bill, I donate 3 liters of blood every month.
              A comment: I sold a kidney. I bought myself 2 of these so for sure. Battle flies on environments settings!
            2. Beck
              Beck April 9 2013 18: 38
              -4
              Quote: Ascetic
              Come on, Mist, you'd better send him a disc with "Top Gun", let the person rejoice ..


              Yeah. I did not expect from the person who owns the analysis to hear the scary notes. Well, this is a master's business and a purely personal one. But somehow it’s not handy to impose this personal one on others, like the Fog, to translate this into propaganda, they say the young tanker will read some and will not fight.

              Quote: Ascetic
              Now there is money, pulled out of the dusty development boxes of the mid 80 = x and the result has gone, although there are few people left (there are no others, but those are far) .. Well, what about the amers? One Top Gun, in fact, remained ... Veterans of the military-industrial complex spoke if it weren’t for Gorbachev by 2000. in terms of the quality of arms and military equipment, we would definitely be ahead of the Americans.


              Ascetic himself says, for one reason or another they lagged behind. In fact, in other words, I said the same thing, only without a veil. Uroshniki and pounced. You say money has appeared, now things will go faster. So I'm talking about this, that you need to catch up.

              Quote: Ascetic
              .And Beck is Anubis in fact, hard work without cannabis, judging by some comments, also didn’t work ...


              Well, a personal attitude is personal. To suppose something bad in the opponent, especially if you personally do not know, is of course a great joy to yourself. - Yes, he smokes cannabis. And a pimple on his ass, and a car on him without front-wheel drive.

              Well, come on, be healthy live richly. Free will, persistent obstinacy, shameless rudeness, gall bile.
        3. Rustiger
          Rustiger April 8 2013 18: 50
          +2
          My word de..mo written completely removed, but left Rustaiger


          And this is because my word is correct, and Beck's word "de..mo" is dergmetso.
          At this point, "the entire stock of words" "but passaran", "the enemy will not pass" "victory will be ours", etc.

          And let the hippo stay. We will have it instead of a behemotransporter, to destroy the bunkers. And in peacetime, improve the performance characteristics of polar hippos, and increase the population. . .
          1. Beck
            Beck April 8 2013 19: 15
            -4
            Quote: Rustiger
            And this is because my word is true


            Yes, and figs with you and with your faithful word.
        4. bazilio
          bazilio April 8 2013 18: 53
          +1
          Comrades, can you explain to me what the bullpup line-up has to do with generation 4-5 fighters, tanks and the auto industry? And again the Americans, the Jews ... I understand that someone has something boiling over, someone is happy with something / not happy, someone has a character / temperament. But comrades, let's stick to the topic of the article in the comments. And then we begin for health, and we will finish for peace. And of course, I urge you to argue reasonably and constructively, without using the childish scheme "I hear myself from a fool", we are all adults here
    3. Ingvald_Bueny
      Ingvald_Bueny April 8 2013 18: 44
      +3
      You should first study the question, read the theory, read books on the topic, only then speak out, otherwise than "dilettantism" your "fabrications" can not be called.
  13. zao74
    zao74 April 8 2013 10: 15
    +1
    Well, I don't like bullpups. IMHO.
  14. scrabler
    April 8 2013 10: 24
    +2
    No, after all, bullpup cannot be the only correct solution, as well as the classic weapon layout. Here you need to look, first of all, at the tasks that are set for the fighter and already select weapons accordingly. "In the field" it is really unlikely that you can come up with something better than the classics, but in cramped conditions the advantage of the bullpup layout is already felt. In general, there is no absolutely black, as well as absolutely white smile
    1. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior April 8 2013 10: 32
      +3
      Well, for example, bullpups would be useful to crews of armored vehicles, due to compactness, IMHO.
      And it’s really not worth introducing him into the army en masse,.
  15. Ch0sen1
    Ch0sen1 April 8 2013 10: 48
    +3
    The problem of ejection of cartridges in FN2000 was quite simply solved, but getting rid of the back centering in the bulpap is difficult.
  16. AK-47
    AK-47 April 8 2013 10: 58
    +3
    In my opinion, several types of the same, structurally different weapons should be in service, so that the branches of the armed forces or individual units can choose the most suitable one to fulfill the tasks assigned to them.
    1. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 8 2013 17: 16
      +1
      So it is, or rather "was" OTs-14 "Thunderstorm". With great functionality and the possibility of widespread use. They used it on the "chichah" too, but then they threw something into the far corner. Instead of improvements, they began to develop new systems.
      It seems to me that a situation has turned out when each manufacturer "began to pull the blanket over himself." To push "your" products into the market. Even one that was not in real battles, but only on bench tests.
  17. Baron Wrangell
    Baron Wrangell April 8 2013 10: 58
    +2
    shoot with a bullpup lineup do not shoot, if honestly, but held several types in my hands, my opinion is very uncomfortable,
    1. change the store, separation from the shoulder, hence the distraction from the battle (my opinion)
    2. a shutter clanging under the eye, probably not enough pleasant when the shells in front of the nose fly out
    I do not like it, although how the toy looks cool, but no more!
    1. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior April 8 2013 11: 15
      +1
      Well, the shutter can be taken out on the left side. wink
      As for the separation from the shoulder, yes, probably. Without a shooting range, you can’t understand, unfortunately request
      1. bazilio
        bazilio April 8 2013 11: 59
        +2
        Quote: Baron Wrangel
        1. change the store, separation from the shoulder, hence the distraction from the battle (my opinion)

        I agree, but now add here the replacement of the magazine in the bulpap in the supine position.
    2. luiswoo
      luiswoo April 8 2013 15: 43
      +1
      Quote: Baron Wrangell
      ... when the sleeves in front of the nose fly out

      At the ADF, in the first photo, the sleeves fly forward. We can assume that there are no problems with this. Otherwise, it is somehow mythical - it is problematic to find real reviews about it ...

      on video his ancestor A-91
  18. _KM_
    _KM_ April 8 2013 11: 18
    +2
    Bullpup is good for weapons under a cartridgeless cartridge, such as the G-11 or with unusual magazine designs, such as the FN P-90. In its current form, the weapon is very inconvenient for lying down and changing the store.
  19. Vovka levka
    Vovka levka April 8 2013 11: 19
    +1
    First, the undead made weapons, you need to make a normal cartridge, or buy a license. This is the weakest point at this stage.
  20. redwar6
    redwar6 April 8 2013 11: 30
    +3
    Of course we had standing models of weapons of this system, but I never liked such weapons, the classic is more convenient, IMHO.
  21. bubla5
    bubla5 April 8 2013 12: 37
    +1
    It’s not convenient with hand-to-hand weapons, and the ugly ones hurt, more and more like alien weapons
    1. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 8 2013 18: 18
      0
      It’s not convenient with melee weapons


      And what about the sapper? But it is better not to bring this up to this, throw grenades from the grenade launcher, and then for a long, long time "engage in the identification of carcasses" or. ... . run further.
      1. bazilio
        bazilio April 8 2013 19: 01
        0
        Quote: bubla5
        It’s not convenient with melee weapons


        "In hand-to-hand combat, the winner is the one with the most cartridges" p. 51 Combat Axioms of Control A (Alpha)
        soldier
  22. Army1
    Army1 April 8 2013 13: 15
    0
    I wonder if Izhmash has new developments like an "automatic grenade launcher" with electronic stuffing: a range finder, a ballistic calculator, etc.
  23. Army1
    Army1 April 8 2013 13: 18
    0
    I wonder if Izhmash has new developments such as an "automatic grenade launcher" with electronic stuffing: a range finder, a symbiosis of a barrel and a ballistic calculator. Maybe someone in the know?
    1. Begemot
      Begemot April 8 2013 16: 36
      0
      No, Izhmash does not produce a hinge, the whole hitch is purchased. And there have been no orders from the Ministry of Defense for complex CO for a long time. Usually, the customers themselves weigh all the "tricks".
      1. Rustiger
        Rustiger April 8 2013 18: 09
        0
        Izhmash does not produce a hitch; the entire hitch is purchased.


        But no! Izhmash may not produce, their historical "diocese" is a bullet.
        The Tula people have such good as obezage in bulk. And its own underbarrel grenade launchers, and laser sights, produced by Novosibirsk software, and domestic EVK (assembly, microcircuits, possibly "Kitaisovskie").

        Pictures are not inserted. I would stick a dozen, but they stayed at work on the "clamping screw". So google yourself. I'm lazy . ... ...
  24. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn April 8 2013 14: 33
    0
    So so so! someone said:
    detailed articles will appear shortly

    good
  25. shinobi
    shinobi April 8 2013 15: 39
    +1
    Until a viable case-free ammunition appears, the dad’s bullet will remain the poor relatives of the classics. And it seems to me that the screw clips will be used. Well, the bullet’s dad’s box box is uncomfortable. two butt, three clips vasche atas.
    1. SIT
      SIT April 8 2013 17: 07
      +1
      Quote: shinobi
      And it seems to me that the screw clips will be used. Well, the box store at Bul Dad is uncomfortable

      I also never understood why not to make a cylindrical auger magazine, which will lie down from below in a recess under the bolt frame behind the fire control handle. It is much easier to insert it into such a recess than a box-shaped one and it is not necessary to take away weapons from the shoulder. The disadvantage of it, of course, is that the cartridges fly right in front of the eye and indoors, powder gases from the shutter directly into the nose. If this problem is solved by ejecting the cartridges forward, then otherwise it is more accurate to shoot from it, because all this automation clangs behind the hands, and not directly above them. Holding it is easier. Just do not do automation like on FAMAS. He only shoots French bullets.
      1. scrabler
        April 8 2013 17: 14
        0
        Why then don't a screw shop on top of a weapon fit? The sights in the bullpup layout are almost always high on the racks for easy aiming, so why empty the place? At the same time and with the replacement of the store will not be problems and make it possible for almost the entire length of the weapon. But equip ...
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 8 2013 18: 44
          0
          The auger store is not very reliable, it requires significant time for equipment, roads in production. Although it provides a very good volume ratio.
          A bulpap for specials (and even not everywhere) is a sensible thing, but for linear parts it is absolutely unpromising.
  26. Garysit
    Garysit April 8 2013 16: 46
    +3
    The small distance from the shoulder rest to the grip leads to shoulder and forearm fatigue of the shooter quite quickly, especially a tall commando with long arms, and a lot has been said about the benefits of powder gases in front of the nose. That's the price of some ease of handling a bullpup layout in a cramped environment. As for the interest of the management of Izhmash, it is more likely the influence of the Zlobin team, who deserted from the Tula TsKIB, who took Korobov as the basis for the development.
  27. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi April 8 2013 17: 01
    0
    http://www.guns.yfa1.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/iwi_x95.jpeg.
    It seems like a normal device?
    1. Rebus
      Rebus April 8 2013 17: 47
      0
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      It seems like a normal device?

      So it seems pretty, but there are a few but:
      1. The store would be shorter, for example, three-row or 20 rounds, but this is not enough for combat, it sticks out excessively ...
      2. A lot of plastic, I do not think that it is durable and reliable.
      3. For hand-to-hand combat is not suitable ...
      How does he react to dust, water?
      And so, for the police, gunners and other drivers, it’s probably suitable.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 8 2013 18: 49
        0
        The three-row store is from the category of unscientific fiction. There were and still are four-row ("Suomi", "Spectrum" M4, for the darling PKK), but they somehow did not take root.
        1. Rebus
          Rebus April 8 2013 19: 10
          0
          Quote: anomalocaris
          The three-row store is from the category of unscientific fiction. There were and still are four-row ("Suomi", "Spectrum" M4, for the darling PKK), but they somehow did not take root.

          I totally agree ... It's just that Aron Zaavi advertises "Tavor", and its adoption in service in Russia is even more unscientific fantasy, practically fantasy ...
          As for the three-row shops ...
          Diagram of a detachable three-row disk magazine for a Degtyarev DT tank machine gun with a capacity of 63 rounds

          The project of the Tarosenko machine with a three-row store

          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris April 8 2013 19: 19
            0
            Well, for starters, you need Tavor to be adopted in Israel itself. Bo is a very mixed unit.
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi April 8 2013 19: 25
              0
              Quote: Rebus

              I totally agree ... It's just that Aron Zaavi advertises "Tavor", and its adoption in service in Russia is even more unscientific fantasy, practically fantasy ...

              why advertise? request It’s just an option for a valid bull dad.
              1. Rebus
                Rebus April 8 2013 19: 29
                0
                Quote: Aron Zaavi
                It’s just an option for a valid bull dad.

                It’s good to sell it to private collections, it’s painfully futuristic, but not like an army weapon ...
                1. Aaron Zawi
                  Aaron Zawi April 8 2013 20: 15
                  0
                  Quote: Rebus
                  Quote: Aron Zaavi
                  It’s just an option for a valid bull dad.

                  It’s good to sell it to private collections, it’s painfully futuristic, but not like an army weapon ...

                  Well, here I do not agree. In addition to the fact that the Tavor and X-95 have been in service since 2004 with the Golani, Givati, NAHAL brigades and their reserve backup, special forces units and until 2018 must replace all M-16s in the IDF personnel units, but have already been delivered to 15 countries and are produced according to licenses in Ukraine under the brand name "Fort".
                2. bazilio
                  bazilio April 8 2013 20: 20
                  0
                  Quote: anomalocaris
                  Well, for starters, you need Tavor to be adopted in Israel itself

                  They already took it, last year I saw it myself with the fighters at the checkpoint on the road to the Dead Sea and the fighters at the checkpoint at the entrance / exit to Bethel. But in the majority they still use emki
  28. Naval
    Naval April 8 2013 21: 43
    0
    And the Taliban and Somali pirates use the AK-47 and nothing, they beat their enemies for their health .... Maybe as Zhvanetsky said: - Do I need to fix something in the conservatory? winked
  29. SAFON 1
    SAFON 1 16 September 2013 06: 56
    0
    A bulpup with an auger magazine would be a revolution in weapons, but the cheap AK 47, the state monopoly on the production of weapons, thwarted all the design thought and work on the invention of more modern weapons. The compactness of the bulpup in combination with a powerful cartridge gives an advantage in confined spaces, for the crews of helicopters, infantry fighting vehicles, and other equipment. The choice of weapons gives you a chance to survive in different situations. It is a pity that "Izhmash drew attention" only after the death of the designer, they blind the next "Kakashnikov".