Military Review

Russia and China: was there an agreement?

In recent days, the topic of military-technical cooperation between Russia and China has again become relevant. With a difference of several days and even hours, several messages appeared, according to which the countries agreed on a number of issues and had already signed the relevant documents. Thus, in the very near future, arms deliveries stipulated by the agreement may begin. However, immediately after the first News others appeared, at least not confirming them.

On the twentieth of March, news was circulated in the Russian media about a new step in military-technical cooperation between the two countries. With reference to the Chinese CCTV channel, it was alleged that during the recent official visit to Moscow of the new President of China Xi Jingping, a new contract was signed. According to this paper, China will buy the 24 Su-35 fighter and four Amur-1650 project diesel-electric submarines. Earlier, various news had been received regarding the sale of this equipment, but this time it became known that the agreement was signed.

After some time, the agency ITAR-TASS denied reports of the signing of the contract. According to the source agency, the country did not enter into any agreements regarding the supply of aircraft or submarines. Moreover, according to the source, during the past negotiations, the subject of military-technical cooperation did not rise at all. For this reason, there is no reason to trust previous messages.

Finally, it turned out a little later that the framework agreement was nevertheless concluded, but a little earlier. According to updated press reports, countries signed a contract in a closed environment, a few days before Comrade X's arrival. It is worth noting that the official representatives of the Russian or Chinese side have not yet expressed themselves on this score, therefore, it is necessary to operate only with information obtained by the media from their sources. The degree of reliability of the news in this case is clear.

Probably the reason for the appearance of such news was not only the visit of the Chinese delegation. Earlier, official Beijing has repeatedly shown interest in the latest Russian military technology. At the end of last year, information about the possible purchase by China of the Russian diesel-electric submarines of the Amur-1650 project appeared. At the same time, in a number of sources it was stated that before the construction of these boats began, the countries would jointly modernize the project so that it would meet the requirements of the Chinese sailors. In particular, the possibility of mounting an air-independent power plant (VNEU) produced by a certain third country on submarines was called.

In addition, over the past months, China’s intention to acquire a number of X-NUMX ++ fighter Su-4 is being discussed. So, one of the main topics was the number of aircraft needed. Russia has repeatedly shown its unwillingness to sell a small number of fighters, arguing that a few machines are not enough to perform combat missions. However, one or two fighters are able to become a model for copying. Thus, not our aircraft manufacturers will benefit from the purchase of new Russian aircraft, but the Chinese, who will be able to master some technologies and constructive aspects.

Similar concerns are expressed regarding the submarine shipments. The power plant capable of operating without air flow can become a model for copying, which significantly increases the combat capabilities of the submarine. According to the source of the Kommersant newspaper, the Amur-1650 for the Chinese naval forces will use the VNEU based on the Stirling engine. If this is true, then you can roughly imagine which country will provide its own VNEU. At the moment, only two types of submarines are equipped with Stirling engines: Swedish submarines of the Gotland type and Japanese Soryu submarines. Other countries are working in this direction, but so far they have not had the same success.

It is also necessary to recall the scattered statements of Chinese leaders and the media, according to which China is interested in military-technical cooperation with Russia, not only in the field of aviation and submarines. For example, now the Chinese military is interested in the latest S-400 anti-aircraft missile system. However, more and more often in the Chinese media it is mentioned the possible supply of submarines.

From the situation with the news about the agreement on the construction of new boats, it follows that negotiations on this issue may continue to this day, but at the same time do not indulge in publicity. In this case, you can confidently talk about their future successful completion and signing of the contract. Currently, more than half of the diesel-electric submarines in China’s navy are over 10-15 years old. The total number of the newest Russian-made boats of the 877 / 636 project does not exceed 10-12 units. Thus, the Chinese Navy need to upgrade equipment of this class. The first four Amur-1650 submarines may well be the beginning of a lot of work to upgrade the fleet of diesel-electric submarines.

However, the question of numbers remains open. Four submarines are too few to fully replace a few dozen old ones. Probably a small number of submarines, and the possible participation of Chinese specialists in the finalization of the project should speak about the possible production of "Cupids-1650" in China. Last year there was unconfirmed information about the construction of boats. According to her, two diesel-electric submarines will be built in Russia, two more - in China. However, the parties have not yet confirmed this information, nor have they announced the fact of the existence of the contract, if any. Therefore, it remains to wait for official messages and try to predict further actions of countries.

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  1. Skarte
    Skarte April 2 2013 08: 16
    So it’s not clear, it seems that there are contracts, but it’s China with its love of copying and tying everything ... then we will compete in the arms sales markets with our own weapons, only many times cheaper, because they didn't put in any effort to develop ... On the other hand, we need an ally ... oh what a difficult situation. Well, let's think our politicians know better ... "The giraffe is big, he knows better"
    1. Orik
      Orik April 2 2013 09: 41
      Well, many times cheaper, that's the question. If the Chinese make the product at the European level, then it costs European money. If it is cheaper, then it will be worse; if not, it means politics. In this case, who is stopping us from selling cheaper ?!
      1. I think so
        I think so April 2 2013 21: 24
        It is not serious to talk about "easy" copying of modern weapons. Even if someone borrows some technical solutions, it means nothing. Because if there are specialists in the country who are capable of "copying", then this means that they can easily create such weapons themselves. And having a sample really doesn't help much in this process. Here in the internet and in particular on this forum there is a stereotype - China copies everything. This is fundamentally wrong. The reality is ALREADY such that China ALREADY does not need to copy ANYTHING, it has specialists capable of creating ANY weapons by itself. Therefore, the sale or embargo of technology for China ALREADY means nothing. If the Chinese have decided to create their own submarines - then they will CREATE them, sell them or not sell them - there is no difference. Russia is now deeply behind EVERYONE in the construction of non-nuclear submarines, and if she is ordered something, she has to grab onto the order otherwise, and this will not happen. It's the same with planes and stuff.
      2. Scythian 35
        Scythian 35 April 15 2013 11: 55
        But what about the authority of Russian weapons !!! Or do you want the citizens of the world to spit reading on the label - made in Russia !!! It's easy to lose credibility, and high-quality Russian weapons are not much that we are proud of and what we have left !!!
  2. fenix57
    fenix57 April 2 2013 09: 17
    "... not our aircraft manufacturers will win, but the Chinese, who will be able to master some of the technology and design moments.... "- this is how the Chinese need it. They know how to copy. Of course, we need a strategic partner in the face of China, but Russia also needs to see the" edge "of Russia. China has enough money for both Amur-1650 and St. 400. But there is no need to get carried away. Where they will be sent later, that is the question .....And then there will be two eternal: who is to blame, what to do.. hi
  3. Russian
    Russian April 2 2013 09: 21
    Oh, this yellow press, they’ll write one thing first, then another! We will wait for official statements. In general, if you really sell equipment to the Chinese, then this is certainly not the latest! In the previous comment, everything is written that can happen.
    1. illarion
      illarion April 2 2013 18: 10
      Then the West is trying to find out if there was a boy? The German press is asking whether the contract has been signed? We will agree with the Chinese or not. These are our internal disassemblies. But the West is wondering how many China will have submarines and aircraft.
  4. klimpopov
    klimpopov April 2 2013 09: 25
    Where's the lantern near the plane? Or is it a convertible? wassat
    1. B_KypTke
      B_KypTke April 2 2013 10: 43
      It seems that there was a shooting of the rear ejection seat ...
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov April 2 2013 11: 11
        Well, yes, I also did not find a rear seat in the photo. I wonder where the photo came from and when it was taken?
        1. vitya29111973
          vitya29111973 April 3 2013 00: 23
          Another masquerade, missiles hung and forgot about the lantern !!!
  5. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs April 2 2013 09: 26
    China has long been eyeing the Su-35, although officially it has always been refuted. However, at the end of last year, there was a Chinese delegation in Russia and judging by leaks in the press, China asked to sell 4 cars, but ours did not agree with less than 48. At the same time, there was a reference to one of ours, in the sense that there have been shifts in the position of China regarding compliance with copyright. I think that China has promised us that it will not copy our samples, but can they be trusted in this matter. On the other hand, sooner or later, but China will have to respect copyright, the whole world is pressing on it.
    1. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka April 2 2013 10: 19
      And what will the world do to him? Never mind.
      1. not good
        not good April 2 2013 21: 50
        .... will not copy? These Chinese are such storytellers .....
  6. baltika-18
    baltika-18 April 2 2013 09: 30
    So everyone understands what the Chinese are buying for copy.
    These are very strange friends and allies.
  7. nickname 1 and 2
    nickname 1 and 2 April 2 2013 09: 32
    Yeah! And eat a fish and two fingers on the asphalt .....

    But there are a lot of them ...

    However, in India there are not many less people, but is the approach different?
    1. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka April 2 2013 10: 28
      India is far away, that’s all the charm. India has problems with Pakistan, China. Who helps Pakistan the most - China, and why? Someone whom China does not need to be taught, Siberia is nearby, and there are resources. Friends with China, but there are no friends in the world, there are interests. Today they are alone, and tomorrow they are different. Do not believe, carefully study the story.
  8. B_KypTke
    B_KypTke April 2 2013 10: 38
    The boat is strange in the photo .. and the tricolor is by no means Russian.
    More similar to S-1000 ..
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov April 2 2013 11: 13
      So these are Italians. Form on submariners.
      Looks like she

      1. timurso
        timurso April 2 2013 12: 17
        Nemchura this. Project 212A.
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov April 2 2013 12: 20
          Why are the flags then Italian? Although the links are exhaustive.
          1. sergius60
            sergius60 April 2 2013 13: 27
            Please pay attention to the standard bearer. Black-red-yellow flag. Truly I say - the "Bundes".
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov April 2 2013 14: 22
              Yes, the comrade has already enlightened the links there.
          2. illarion
            illarion April 2 2013 18: 16
            The flag seems to be Dutch
            1. Kir
              Kir April 2 2013 20: 11
              Here it looks like the flag of the Netherlands, and most likely it is France, and with regards to the supposedly German flag in the hands of a standard bearer, since I have a professional monique, the campaign is not black but deep blue, and the campaign flag with a picture, not tricolor. A shape like the Bundes?
              Where is the author?
      2. Yankuz
        Yankuz April 2 2013 14: 13
        One hundred pounds of the picture here is strange !!! Either there is no lantern, then import boats ....... Why did the author lay them out? I was still surprised that how clean and tidy the workshop is not typical of Russian shipyards.
  9. sergius60
    sergius60 April 2 2013 12: 49
    The "French type" production cycle was launched. Export sales. The money received for the development and modernization of production. Partly for purchases for yourself. Thus, the spiral unwinds upward. Constant updating of the development of weapons systems creates the possibility of separation in quality component ... Brains, I hope, remain in Russia? Many, many "pieces of iron" have already been done, but it brought us happiness? Playing catch-up, the poor GRU erased all their hooves in search of something else to steal, "high-tech". And they stayed in their holey pants and fucked up the COUNTRY. And if you become a "copyist", then you appoint yourself forever catching up. You won’t win the technological race never, in principle. Passed, we know. Does anyone remember the Jackson-Broom amendment? Otchen in the Union about her hysteria.
    Translation into Russian - in a foreign * uy drive to paradise.
    With what you comrades and congratulations. hi Glory to Russia!
  10. amp
    amp April 2 2013 12: 56
    The Chinese do not need to sell anything. Firstly, they will copy, and secondly, it is not clear against whom in the end these weapons will be sent.
    I am for cooperation with China against the United States, but caution is still necessary.
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 2 2013 13: 20
      Dear, you probably have never dealt with real production. You can master the appearance. Somehow to understand HOW to do this is also possible. But copy completely! Fear God! On the preparation of technological maps, clarification of heat treatment modes, spectrographic analyzes, etc., etc. - will carry out the "mossh" to the entire engineering corps of the People's Republic of China. In the basement of the project building of the Kommunar automobile plant (Well, which is the flagship of the national automobile industry - Zaporozhets), a whole garage of foreign cars stood. The guys polished the steps to a shine. Here and there. Talk about the result? Or will you regret the pitiful remnants of my nerves?
      1. Vovka levka
        Vovka levka April 2 2013 14: 10
        How much did the engineer get. So they rolled Vanka.
        1. sergius60
          sergius60 April 2 2013 14: 56
          Salary of course x ...., but there were also bonuses and "opportunities". I do not think that the Chinese "tovarisches" with material incentives are a little fat. Doesn't match "tradition". lol The set of "classics" is almost the same. As one acquaintance was clever: "The curve of their rise has not yet crossed the curve of our fall."
      2. amp
        amp April 2 2013 16: 46
        That is Ukrainians, and then the Chinese.
        You need to see the difference.
        The Chinese are copying everything and everywhere.
      3. toldanger
        toldanger April 2 2013 20: 52
        Absolutely agree with you.
  11. Algor73
    Algor73 April 2 2013 13: 19
    Any cooperation with China in military affairs is the transfer of technology to him. China is fawning, it needs technology. He is now ready to kiss Russia in the ass. And then? Why should China ally with Russia against the United States? What kind of startup goals does he see there? The US is already slowly losing its weight in the world. Once there was a pro-state - the USA against the USSR. On different continents, different geopolitics. But Russia and China are on the same. It's like putting a lion and a tiger in one cage.
  12. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik April 2 2013 13: 26
    There are things that are called for internal use, we have SU-35 at the shovel rowing itself, that we must sell them immediately! You can’t sell the most advanced weapons all the more to China, first to yourself, but you can trade with China and other goods! do not get poorer without these contracts! and give them the S-400! )) They are smart however! It should be like this: Yourself S-400, for export - S-200! then it will be good!
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 2 2013 15: 07
      And the "Patriot" whales will offer. We are in shit, and the minke whales are on horseback ... Understand a simple thing, if the Ruler of Russia has an iron point and steel balls, that is, the ability and willingness to press the BIG BUTTON - we don't give a damn EVERYTHING on this Midgard planet. Was the union weak? And did it help him? Having the opportunity SEVERAL TIMES to burn the planet, and hysteria about some pieces of iron. It's not even funny ...
  13. akendram
    akendram April 2 2013 13: 38
    I think it’s not worth bothering because of 4 boats, this China is too unreliable. We already went through with them when small deliveries are a consequence, Chinese copies are crowding out Russian originals.
    1. I think so
      I think so April 2 2013 21: 40
      Well, what does China have to do with it? The Russians "obosr.alis" ruined their defense industry can not do even what used to fly off the teeth ... and at the same time take offense at China. Remember why nobody buys your tanks anymore? AND? Because they are ALREADY worse than Ukrainian ones! Well, what does China have to do with it? He screwed up himself, but China is to blame? So it is with the planes ... Why did India refuse to buy Russian planes? Does he switch to French? The same thing - the plant without orders is all on starvation rations and, accordingly, they mold shit ... but the customer doesn't care ... And then Kitai. When "effective managers" start to steer, EVERYONE is to blame, but not they ...
  14. DAOSS
    DAOSS April 2 2013 14: 41
    And who will tell you why in all the photos, the screw is closed for new boats? Is there something secret?
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 2 2013 15: 19
      CORRECT propeller blade profile OCH-CH-CH-ENH reduces noise. And for the SP it is a matter of life and death. Discovered Submarine - killed Submarine. Of course, submariners say that ships are divided into submarines and targets ... Well, uh, let them talk. My neighbor, a hydroacoustician "from God", issued target designation to the TORPEDA, when his BOD was fired at during exercises. RBU worked normally. The warhead commander turned gray. Sanya received a Medal of Merit and a vacation. Everyone was satisfied. drinks
      Yes, do not look for it in the news, 30 years have passed. Ehhhh ...
    2. komTMG
      komTMG April 2 2013 15: 22
      Each project has its own screw shape. Well, of course, different performance characteristics. Terribly secret. Stealth submarine. It comes from the propeller itself (screw).
      1. komTMG
        komTMG April 2 2013 22: 43
        minus is very important look here. Fuel oil onshore. And it’s like we didn’t sell nuclear submarines.
  15. Black
    Black April 2 2013 14: 50
    America .... China .... Horseradish radish is not sweeter. With the first, do not have anything to do, and do not relax with others.
  16. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik April 2 2013 15: 42
    Quote: sergius60
    And the "Patriot" whales will offer. We are in shit, and the minke whales are on horseback ... Understand a simple thing, if the Ruler of Russia has an iron point and steel balls, that is, the ability and willingness to press the BIG BUTTON - we don't give a damn EVERYTHING on this Midgard planet. Was the union weak? And did it help him? Having the opportunity SEVERAL TIMES to burn the planet, and hysteria about some pieces of iron. It's not even funny ...

    Hmm, let's just say clicking on the Big button will not help either steel eggs or an iron point, and I assure you, no one will ever click on this button! Yes, the Union was strong, however, please explain to me then, why did the Union so fear for the theft of its fighters, for example, m? (Mig -21 is the most striking example) and then in general - why develop new weapons systems if there is a Big button - clicked and blew the whole planet! The war begins and ends in people’s cabinets, and in that control model that you are talking about - this is the Skynet control model in the next branch! A person will not press this button! On the question of the Patriots - let them deliver it - they are far from China and there will be no war between China and Amer - their economies are tied up tightly and it may happen to us that that friend goes with all the advanced things that they so kindly sold to them! 1 day live. We must think to whom and when to sell, and not just to cut money! A lot of amers submarines sold ???
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 2 2013 23: 14
      Dear, where is the logic? If you are SURE that no one will click, then trillions are spent on this "baida". Process for process sake? Or the "Perimeter" system will function normally, and the "hot heads" will be cooled by the nuclear winter.
      Moreover, I used to push the fact that you need to CONSTANTLY, CONTINUOUSLY, to conduct the design and development process due to export sales. That OTHERS were forever catching up.
      And if there is a "great drank" - then tryndets everything. We wrap ourselves in a shroud and wander into the cemetery. crying
  17. werr17
    werr17 April 2 2013 15: 47
    And if, for example, you put a filling on the Su-35, which is very behind the one that stands on the Su-shki for the Russian Air Force, and shove it?
  18. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik April 2 2013 15: 58
    Quote: werr17
    And if, for example, you put a filling on the Su-35, which is very behind the one that stands on the Su-shki for the Russian Air Force, and shove it?

    Su-35 is a 4 ++ generation aircraft, and what characteristics affect the generation? Take out our filling and put it far behind and the plane will no longer be 4 ++, understand? and China needs SU - 35 generation 4 ++. Su - 27 they have plenty.
    1. krokodil25
      krokodil25 April 2 2013 17: 31
      Quote: Dwarfik
      and China needs SU - 35 generation 4 ++. Su - 27 they have plenty.

      China needs an engine and nothing more, they are now developing the idea of ​​the 5th generation without our engines, they have no chance, well, at least for 15-20 years, this is a fact !!!
  19. vikruss
    vikruss April 2 2013 16: 47
    If you follow simple logic, for example. China and the United States, Russia with its resources is very necessary. To be honest, none of them will come up with anything special and they can't offer anything except some kind of incomprehensible "partnership". In the near future, China will again claim Siberian lands, and of course why? Because this topic from time to time again and again "comes to life" and procrastinates in their press. More recently, China has announced exactly this, the fact is on the face. Claims to the territory of Russia again, Nuclear war for China is a "good prospect" to reduce its population within acceptable limits, but for Russia this is the end, And the "greats of this world understand this" are waiting for the moment when Russia, carried away by the West's promises to disarm, and China is it is necessary, it will strike like thunder from the sky and crumble kittens. Let's look further, China basically wants to receive and mainly receives energy resources and high technologies from Russia. Back then, Russia for China is a dump for raw materials made from by-products of Russian oil. China buys "everything" from the United States, and of course the United States benefits from this. I very much doubt that China needs from Russia <this is all>. Even in military deals, what China bought or wants to buy is just a batch for a successful copy, it is a fact. So it was and will continue. The conclusion is simple: the Russian elite should look at such partners as China and the United States unequivocally. China now, as an ally of Russia, in the exact diagram shows the "ally Germany in 1939". Then, just like now, the USSR also "drove" everything there. And the present and future needs of China are much more serious than those of Hitler, with their own desires about ... And therefore, if we do not look far ahead and dazzle ourselves with only financial benefits now, then this means only one thing that we are suicidal in order to sell high technologies to such "hungry", voluminous and very numerous neighbors like China, and even in such miserable volumes. This is just complete idiocy. And the one who thinks that China will become the enemy of the United States is just complete ... and..d..i..o..t. China was only able to rise and reach its peak in the economy at the expense of the US market and then subsequent Western markets. Do you gentlemen really think that this <grandfather will kill the hen that lays his golden eggs> ... it's naive to think so.
  20. APASUS
    APASUS April 2 2013 19: 42
    We seem to be allies with China, but so far not enemies .......... and we all know its ability to copy.
    It is worth proposing a batch of 20-30 submarines (of course, money in advance), or what the Indians are doing - to develop a joint submarine !!!
    1. I think so
      I think so April 2 2013 21: 49
      As for the submarines (non-nuclear), the Russians are so far behind ALL in this regard that they should be glad that at least someone wants to buy a submarine from them.
      So as not to be unfounded:
      1. APASUS
        APASUS April 2 2013 22: 25
        Quote: I think so
        As for the submarines (non-nuclear), the Russians are so far behind ALL in this regard that they should be glad that at least someone wants to buy a submarine from them.

        It seems that shipbuilders have gone the wrong way with the technology of anaerobic power plants based on electrochemical generators for submarines
        Many American researchers believe that technologies in the creation of fuel cells have reached their limits, and do not see in the near future the possibility of further improvement. So, in the reports of the American Physical Society and the National Academy of Sciences of the USA it is noted: in order to implement the program for the widespread use of hydrogen energy using ECG, it is necessary to make a technological breakthrough in at least 100 areas of modern science. In this regard, already in 2006, federal funding for the hydrogen program and the creation of ECG in the United States were discontinued,
  21. Sarmat
    Sarmat April 2 2013 20: 18
    The Chinese, as partners and allies, are not reliable people,, They will be friends as long as it is beneficial to them. And as the benefits disappear, they will immediately betray you. They need us now, so that the United States can blackmail us a little. And with the Americans, they will not butt. They have not reached that level yet. So they maneuver between the reefs.
    In short, friendship is good, and a strong army and navy are more reliable.
  22. smprofi
    smprofi April 2 2013 23: 38
    the meetings were

    conversations were talking

    exchanged folders, but there was no agreement?

    were you just going to get drunk?

  23. Pon69
    Pon69 April 3 2013 07: 45
    There is one more aspect in the supply of equipment to China - we know the performance characteristics of the equipment supplied, its capabilities, strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, in the development of the worst-case scenario of relations between us and China, the means and methods of counteraction are known. You just need to treat this without unnecessary fanaticism and "alarmism".
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 3 2013 15: 09
      The fundamental possibility of "developing a worst-case scenario" will appear only when the European Union and the "staff" multiply by zero. When will this happen? Probably not in this life. And the stronger China becomes, the stronger will be the "tender feelings" towards Russia both among the Gay Europeans and among the staff members, and Israel will catch up. Knowing "God's chosen people", as it were, they still did not overtake everyone. Gee! Do they really want to face China one-on-one? Oh well. We are all hysterical that China will encroach on its native Siberia. Don't get your hopes up. Just find out at your leisure where what lies on Midgard-earth, and how much it is. And most importantly - where? Example. Gold. We have about 5 GRAMS per TON of sand. In South Africa - 12 GRAMS. Almost 2,5 times MORE! Well, and nah ... the Chinese in Siberia freeze their asses and feed mosquitoes when in South Africa and Australia the pieces are "tastier". Most likely the scenario of the beginning of the division of the British inheritance. In 2014, Scotland intends to play "independence". So Great Britain is still being teased by "Small Britain". And then what will we call? "Microbritish", "NanoBritain". And the inheritance is fat. Commonwealth of Nations. Of course, they are all very independent. While the "roof" was. What if the tiles on the roof slowly creep?
  24. ed65b
    ed65b April 3 2013 08: 01
    in the photo, Hu is like a goddamn indulgent smile. And Bear is a middle manager. sneaks up.
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 3 2013 14: 33
      Not Hu, who is Jin Tao - is the former, but Xi, who is Jin Ping. Get used to it, the peasant really chose for 10 years, was appointed, broke up. Underline whatever applicable.