Where to get ensigns?

143
Last week, information came from the Ministry of Defense that provoked a wide response in that segment of Russian society that is not indifferent to the situation with the Armed Forces of the country. We are talking about a plan for a kind of revision of the reformist attempts, which at one time was undertaken by such a person as Anatoly Serdyukov. The revision was expressed in the fact that the Ministry of Defense is now ready to begin partial restoration of the institution of ensigns and warrant officers in the army and navy respectively.

According to opinion polls in the military environment, Sergei Shoigu, it supports the vast majority of respondents. The idea of ​​restoring a special stratum of servicemen occupying a niche between privates and sergeants on the one hand, and officers on the other, looks quite productive for a modern army. Why? Because the very idea that the army was “cleansed” by Mr. Serdyukov from the ensigns did not fully justify itself.

Here it is worth recalling that a few months after his ascent to the "military Olympus" Anatoly Serdyukov told the public that for the conversion of the Russian army to a professional and always combat-ready in the army itself must be almost completely eliminated the category of military personnel in the ranks of warrant officers. Total - about 142 thousands of people. Then this idea was motivated by the fact that the alleged non-commissioned officers - it is absolutely superfluous layer, the representatives of which - entirely thieving gentlemen, rushes their views solely on those items of material equipment of military units that (things) "bad lie". In addition, the idea of ​​leading the main military department in 2008 was that the vacant niche of the midshipmen and warrant officers would either be occupied by professionally trained contract service sergeants or civilian personnel (for example, in terms of warehouse management).

As a result, the public in its majority, if the idea of ​​Mr. Serdyukov did not applaud, then reacted calmly to it. Silent (in bulk) and soldiers themselves, as discussed in the army orders not accepted. So it happened that in 2009, the Russian navy and army 142 lost thousands of soldiers as the midshipmen and ensigns, and a deep and mysterious silence from all parties was a kind of indulgence reformist ideas of ex-minister.

Says the former senior warrant officer of the Ministry of Defense Sergey Polyansky (Vladimir region).

Before getting the status of a military pensioner, I had about 2009 years left in 7. During his military career he managed to pass the steps from a regular ordinary conscript to a senior warrant officer. After I swept the military reform in the country, as well as thousands of other warrant, was in the army superfluous. We are in the rank of ensigns and senior warrant officers in the military unit was, in my opinion, a 22 person. All were collected and brought to the attention that we fall under the reduction, but each of us still has a chance to remain in the army. We were offered to continue the service, but already in sergeant positions. Accordingly, funding decreased, there were uncertainties with the range of responsibilities, the schedule was changing. Given time to think. I and a few other guys went to the denial and decided to try their luck in the system of the Ministry of Interior. Attempts were mostly successful. Others (in particular, those who remained for a year and a half to full service) agreed to the proposals of the commander.


If we evaluate the words of our respondent, it turns out that the total “cleansing” of ensigns and midshipmen was sharpened, including to transfer servicemen to other positions with actual lowering of ranks. Optimization ... That is, the disbandment of such a category of servicemen as a midshipman and ensign was actually positioned as a kind of restructuring of junior commanding officers who are not part of the officer segment.

Obviously, the ideological inspirers of the reform thought that the majority of ensigns would continue to serve with other epaulets. They say, it was an ensign, and become a sergeant - what difference to him ... And we say, kill two birds: report back on cost reduction, optimization of personnel structure and stated that we were able to draw on military service "new" contract sergeants.

As the saying goes, “they wanted the best ...” But it turned out what happened - the absolute majority of ensigns and midshipmen were left behind by the Ministry of Defense, and not everyone wanted to go a couple of steps down the career ladder.

Thus, the army really lost that working cluster, whose representatives were not only related to warehouses and commodity bases. After all, the ensigns and warrant officers were mostly engaged in monitoring the work on the material and technical support of the service, monitoring communication systems, staff and guard activities, and even in special cases acted as platoon commanders. After the actual liquidation of the institute of ensigns and midshipmen, it turned out that the army had lost those very professional military men whom the leadership of the Ministry of Defense had dreamed of bringing "under its banner". It is showing great question: What was the need for left and right to distribute information declarative slogans to increase the number of professional soldiers in the Army and Navy, if the leadership of the main military department with their hands thousands of professional military personnel sent "under the knife"?

In general, the reduction of 142 by thousands of midshipmen and ensigns did not lead to a massive increase in the number of professional sergeants and foremen in the Russian army. Was there a gap in the staffing to plug something? But what? .. The only way out was the option of restoring the cadre composition of the very midshipmen and ensigns. It is on this path that the new leadership of the Ministry of Defense decided to go. At first, we are talking about the restoration of 55 thousands of posts for military personnel in the rank of ensign and midshipman. In other words, about 38% of the personnel structure of this link is being restored.

Everything seems to be great. But there is one nuance. And from what reserves the Ministry of Defense is going to recruit these 55 thousands? If you offer to return to those who were sent in time "for the fence", then it is hardly worth expecting that the majority of persons will enter the position of the ministry. Someone already and age, shall we say, left. Someone found an equivalent job in other departments: the police, Interior Troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, for example; and someone will not return simply because pride does not allow. And it’s quite possible to understand such people: first they called them the Hapugs and “plunderers of capitalist property,” and now you will forgive us and go back as soon as possible. But not a week or even a decade has passed, but already 4 of the year. This is more than a serious time.

It turns out that now either it is necessary to transfer back those who were sent to sergeant posts at one time, or to announce a new training of ensigns and midshipmen. While trying to go in both ways. In particular, representatives of the General Staff state that in October 2013 of the year will be announced to be enrolled in the school of ensigns, which, on 2009, would seem to be ordered to live long. That is, now it is not enough for the Ministry of Defense to simply announce the partial restoration of the disbanded institute of ensigns and midshipmen, but it is also necessary to restore the training system of these servicemen. As the saying goes, "to the ground, and then ..." Classic national reform school, and only.

It now remains to calculate the damage to the federal budget, which was inflicted by the implementation of the reformist idea of ​​a total reduction in the number of ensigns and midshipmen in the army and navy. Perhaps, even a professional financier is not able to give an exact figure of damage, but even without an exact figure, it is quite obvious that here it smacks of many billions again. Reduction; striving to replace one another; fixing that the aspirations did not lead to a positive result; ideas about restoration, implementation of restoration with the “re-opening” of the schools of ensigns and midshipmen — all this flows into large sums for the country's budget. And who will answer for all this?

If no one, then it seems that the failure to implement reform plans, or obviously its counterproductive course, does not imply the presence of those responsible. They say that the person did not manage, he took a lot of himself, could not carry it away, so why should you shoot him for that? .. Yes, now you have to at least regret it ...

It turns out that the kind of responsible for reform and there, but at the same time and ask not with anyone. There are no others, but those are far away ...

That is why I want to sincerely hope that the new top Defense Ministry not only has a thoughtful plan of personnel changes in the Russian army and the desire to implement the plan before the end, but also the realization that the "responsibility" - is not just an abstract concept of an explanatory dictionary.
143 comments
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  1. +22
    5 March 2013 08: 51
    "Then this idea was motivated by the fact that ensigns are an absolutely superfluous stratum, whose representatives are entirely thieving gentlemen who direct their views exclusively on those items of material and technical equipment of military units that (items)" lie badly. " - this is the nonsense of Siwa mare! The whole army held on to the ensigns! They are like universal soldiers, they can be the chief of a food warehouse or any other service, or a foreman in a company!
    1. +3
      5 March 2013 09: 10
      Quote: nycsson
      this is an absolutely superfluous stratum, whose representatives are entirely thieving gentlemen who direct their views exclusively on those items of material and technical equipment of military units, which (items) "lie badly."

      Well, now there is no one to steal in the army - we will live!
      1. +44
        5 March 2013 09: 20
        Judging by criminal cases, Serdyukov and the company were going to steal themselves.
        As much as they stole, they could not have stolen all the ensigns of the Russian army.
        1. +9
          5 March 2013 10: 29
          Quote: andrei.2012
          As much as they stole, they could not have stolen all the ensigns of the Russian army.

          All past and future.
          1. opkozak
            +16
            5 March 2013 13: 21
            Prapora kapterku not surrender !!
            1. Quiet
              -1
              6 March 2013 20: 36
              Anekdotov read il series about ensign zadova seen enough respected ????? hi
            2. 0
              7 March 2013 05: 32
              "And who will be responsible for all this?" - For, THIS, as always, no one will answer !!!
              1. stroporez
                +1
                7 March 2013 10: 26
                I would put the question differently ------ And who will ask for this ??? you don’t have to wait for this from our geeks-leaders .......... it’s far from the elections, which means that no one will answer. Yes, and no one to ask ..........
          2. Quiet
            0
            6 March 2013 20: 08
            All past and future.

            Total USSR combined for a hundred years !!!!! hi
        2. folds
          +30
          5 March 2013 10: 29
          And the supreme commander-in-chief wrote out an indulgence to Serdyukov, putting him in office, supporting his reforms, without shooting him for starting the war in August of the 8th year. I am not a lawyer, but Serdyukov's activities very much remind me of the article "treason to the Motherland"
          1. +2
            5 March 2013 23: 59
            And I am a lawyer and completely agree with you. ............... ruined the army and neither to whom nor what! At least pests, and so are sabotage agents.
            1. 0
              6 March 2013 00: 15
              Quote: uizik
              And I am a lawyer and completely agree with you. .......... ruined the army and neither to whom nor what! At least pests, and so are sabotage agents.



              so respected lawyer, you can’t do without a mat, or was this also taught at the law faculty ?! Next time I’ll delete the comment
            2. Quiet
              +2
              6 March 2013 20: 12
              I propose a kind of execution for Serdyuk .... PUT INTO HIM IN THE ASS "Mistral" LET'S LONELY CATCH THE KAYF FROM YOUR PURCHASE !!!!! wassat
        3. ivachum
          +1
          5 March 2013 11: 55
          ..... and the Soviet Army too .....
      2. +12
        5 March 2013 10: 14
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Well, now there is no one to steal in the army - we will live!


        Fresh tradition - yes hard to believe. If we analyze the actions of the stool, then he seems to have earned not only theft. Rather, over the execution of the order to open the gate to the sleeping city, before the invasion of the enemy.
        And the destruction of the class of secondary technical specialists is tantamount to operating military equipment without lubrication.
        1. -1
          5 March 2013 20: 26
          Quote: skeptic
          Rather, over the execution of the order to open the gate to the sleeping city, before the invasion of the enemy.

          song from the game "Skyrim The main theme heard not sohttp: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = a1SIkzn63bE" - it smells like shizo (linguistic programmer) but interesting.
        2. Quiet
          0
          6 March 2013 20: 27
          If you analyze the actions of the stool

          ... then he "brought up" during his "leadership" a lot of people who want to steal and (try) to escape in time ..... Now try to bring them all to a common denominator ... negative
      3. bosxxl
        +3
        5 March 2013 11: 41
        AND WITHOUT GUARANTEE THERE IS WHO TO STEAL
      4. rubber_duck
        +2
        5 March 2013 12: 32
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Quote: nycsson
        this is an absolutely superfluous stratum, whose representatives are entirely thieving gentlemen who direct their views exclusively on those items of material and technical equipment of military units, which (items) "lie badly."

        Well, now there is no one to steal in the army - we will live!


        The idea of ​​leading the main military department in 2008 was that the vacant niche of midshipmen and ensigns would either be occupied by professionally trained contract service sergeants or civilian personnel (for example, in terms of warehouse management)

        That's it, after all, civilian personnel, he will not steal something !!! fool
      5. +4
        5 March 2013 12: 53
        Quote: Vladimirets
        let's live!

        Grandma said in two.
        Funny front work at Kozhegedovich.
        The previous one ordered: To write in sinks and wash hands in toilets — to save water and toilets are always clean.
        Kozhegedovich is now returning to normal.
        Pee in the toilet, wash your hands in the sink.
        What real will be done ?!
        When the army will be staffed and trained and not recruiting-slave-gastrabiter.
      6. +2
        5 March 2013 21: 28
        = "You won't believe it! Everything is stolen before us ..."
        1. opkozak
          +1
          6 March 2013 00: 30
          Where to get ensigns?

          where it is warm and comfortable!
          1. Quiet
            -1
            6 March 2013 20: 33
            Does your kin march ??? kozak ???
    2. stroporez
      0
      5 March 2013 10: 09
      if
      Quote: nycsson
      ensigns are an absolutely superfluous stratum, whose representatives are entirely thieving gentlemen who direct their views exclusively on those items of material and technical equipment of military units that (items) "lie badly."

      then someone is very unlucky, and I am sorry for such people
    3. Sirozha
      +5
      5 March 2013 10: 26
      Theft and uselessness is a myth inspired by jokes. Judging by everything, the Ministry of Defense has little relation to the army, and they heard about it only from those same jokes, that’s all sorts of crap.
    4. Fox
      +9
      5 March 2013 10: 27
      Quote: nycsson
      gentlemen, fixing their eyes exclusively on those objects

      for his urgent, in Soviet times, not a single ensign of thieves did not meet ... but there are plenty of lieutenant colonels and majors. so, colleague, you are right.
    5. gribnik777
      +5
      5 March 2013 13: 47
      Quote: nycsson
      On the ensigns the whole army held on! They are like universal soldiers, they can be the head of a food warehouse or any other service or foreman in a company!


      stop
      I want to add: in the technical units on the shoulders of the ensigns lay the main burden of responsibility to maintain the equipment in good condition. soldier
      And steal bridges everything, despite the ranks and positions.
      This is of course trouble.
      feel
    6. Quiet
      0
      6 March 2013 20: 02
      Where to get ensigns?

      Stupid question !!!!! Praporov 5% were stuck in warehouses with canned food and clothes Aircraft technicians, PDS, divisional foremen, objective control, a good ensign could revive any unit (this is only in aviation) ... IN THE ENTIRE ARMY THE OFFICER ALWAYS ASKED IN THE FIRST TIME FROM THE EMPLOYEE ... And the command was "ALWAYS GIRL BUT DO" !!! ... AND DID !!! MASTERPIECES !!!!! UVAZHUHA PRAPORAM - PRO of old yeast cultures !!!!!!

      Now take the "storekeepers" and persuade them to prepare a shift ... hi
  2. +14
    5 March 2013 08: 55
    Now it remains to calculate the damage to the federal budget,
    The greatest damage is moral. People have lost faith in the institution of the army and justice. Now even no one (from the political elite) is capable, or perhaps afraid, by virtue of consolidative responsibility, to assess Serdyukov’s harm. It is a pity for the ensigns who served as faith in truth. Now let's see what will happen to recruitment in military schools and academies. Will the confidence of at least youth return.
    1. politruk419
      +5
      5 March 2013 13: 33
      Quote: smel
      The greatest damage is moral. People have lost faith in the institution of the army and justice.

      And this is the main thing. The key point. This is called FUCKING INTO SHOWER PEOPLE.
  3. +25
    5 March 2013 09: 07
    A blow to the army, broken human destinies - these are the real results of the reform. But there are no perpetrators. Paradox! The state suffered huge damage, but no one was punished! Theft was revealed in the amount of the state budget of the average country, but we have so far only witnesses! Fairy tale! Only for us this tale is terrible.
    1. ivachum
      +9
      5 March 2013 12: 26
      add ....)

      To save money, to put it mildly, it didn’t work, and it shouldn’t work either ..... the fact is that lowering military ranks (from ensign to senior sergeant / sergeant) by one or two steps saved 1–2 thousand .rub. everyone’s salary, and the tariff categories are what they were, they basically remained the same. Just as there was a foreman of a company with a 9th tariff category, he remained, only he was no longer a senior warrant officer, but a senior sergeant, the company was similar with the technicians.

      All this delusional reform was conceived not for saving money, but for the collapse, albeit not quite modern, but of the army ... now there is none.

      Let me remind you, if someone missed it ... then in the second half of 2010, a mass disposal of contractors began, stopped in December 2010. It was supposed to leave the servicemen under the contract only in the positions of OBG, the rest "overboard", and the task was set to dismiss as much as possible for non-compliance with the terms of the contract. True, one loophole was left for contractors ..... to write a report for transfer to the then SKVO or part of the Airborne Forces.

      Then the epic began again with the struggle for the percentage of staffing by contract soldiers, again, as in 2006-2007, at each meeting, unit / unit commanders reported how many conscripts were persuaded / deflected / forced to sign a contract. Then even funnier ....

      In 2012, since the contract servicemen in general and sergeants in particular were sorely lacking to fill the posts of OBG, it was decided to start recruiting them from the reserve again .... All of them were led through the so-called. "Survival Course" ..... good overall then the case. But .... having arrived after this course in the troops and not having received the expected amount of monetary allowance (they were promised in the military registration and enlistment offices from 35 thousand rubles and above, but in reality not many of them received more than 22-25 maximum, meaning where there is no different kind of regional coefficients), many preferred not just to quit, but to leave their places of "service" without permission .... In addition, it has now begun to emerge that some (not a significant number, but still ...) of them at the time of the call were already under investigation. ... how the military commissars called them is an open question ...
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        +1
        5 March 2013 20: 25
        Just mishandled pest-enemy! The traitor and the one who set him up are also the enemy !!! All of them will be tried for treason and judged by the laws of war !!!
      2. +3
        5 March 2013 21: 34
        - Moreover, the article for failure to fulfill the terms of the contract was interpreted unilaterally. Non-payment of monetary allowances were not considered as such!
  4. politruk419
    +34
    5 March 2013 09: 08
    If you take for example the crew of a submarine, then the midshipmen always performed the function of the main stabilizing link in the crew. After all, officers usually grow in positions or move to headquarters and services. And most of the sailors do not serve for many years. Therefore midshipmen and their qualifications as a rule determine the face of the crew.
    In addition, the midshipman, having acquired a secondary technical education at the State Technical University, becomes capable of operating and understanding the principle of operation of equipment of any complexity.
    1. +9
      5 March 2013 09: 37
      I agree politruk419. The midshipmen in the fleet are specialists who know the mate in full. Just Serdyukov thought that the ensigns steal more than him, that’s eliminated the competitors (just kidding). But seriously, the ensigns and warrant officers must be returned.
      1. Quiet
        0
        7 March 2013 18: 01
        then warrant officers and warrant officers must be returned.

        ... and thank you for resignedly pulling the strap ..., not hoping for a promotion ....
  5. Senzey
    +10
    5 March 2013 09: 16
    Warrant Officer - First Deputy Officer, Commander, depending on subordination. Usually owned all the information on the personnel (weaknesses / strengths). In the absence of the commander, he performed his duties. No sergeant had such respect and influence among the fighters. Ensign \ midshipman, new life! New official business!
  6. +12
    5 March 2013 09: 18
    An unnecessary layer in the army, it is a stool with its harem !!!
    1. Quiet
      0
      7 March 2013 18: 02
      Taburetkina in the stove, a harem in a cabaret for the delight of the officer’s gaze !!!!! wassat
  7. +17
    5 March 2013 09: 19
    I don’t know where how, but our warrant officers were allowed to serve, although offering sergeant positions, I was on the 6-9 grid, I became 3-5. Although you get the same as before, but you are retired on the 3-5 grid. Another year passed new OShM, now the pr-ka has a choice either to stay in the army but already getting 3 grids or nafig from the service. The same parsley was with the officers. And with them it was even cooler from the officer position to the sergeant position. That is why there was a large outflow. staff, and the very best ... And during the Stouretkin reforms I did not see the professional sergeants. They came after the deadline, through the military registration and enlistment office, people on the contract, training in terms of a specialist = 0, but there are no people, we will train in three months, fortunately not a conscript. There is interest, but it's okay to run after the BMP, and to service and repair the same BMP, I’m already silent about flight support ... After all, how not to pay a lot to the officer, he physically cannot, all the means to service, control. Here are ensigns and were needed, because how many of them were with secondary technical, and even higherobrazovanie.Even those who came from schools of warrant officers, where they taught for 6-10 months, were considered "raw". Only after a year he became a full-fledged specialist.
  8. +5
    5 March 2013 09: 20
    Serdyukov goes through cases of theft, squandering and the like. and when will he be responsible for the collapse of the army? For mistakes in the destruction of the corps of warrant officers, for the indiscriminate transfer of all troops to the brigade system, for the destruction of military medicine? How long should he be given for all this? Years 400 or so.
    And now we must be extremely careful and balanced in approaching the issues of restoring warrant officers and other issues too. They have already broken down, enough is enough.
    1. stroporez
      +2
      5 March 2013 09: 59
      I think the only "correct" punishment is to give into the hands of those who put their lives in the service of the Fatherland, and to whom he, in gratitude, spat in the face. Now that's bad luck ---- sorry, we're not somewhere but we live in Russia .................
    2. +6
      5 March 2013 15: 05
      erased
      Quote: erased
      Serdyukov goes through cases of theft, squandering and the like. and when will he be responsible for the collapse of the army?
      Well, this is with us, in Russia ...
      But how not at US, in Greece -
      "Former Greek Minister of Defense Akis Tsohatzopoulos was sentenced to eight years in prison, Reuters reports. The Athens Court of Appeal found it proven forgery of documents that related to the official's income from 2006 to 2009, in addition, the former head of the defense department was unable to explain to the investigation. , with what funds he purchased in his name a mansion near the Acropolis.
      Since April last year, A. Tsokhatzopulos was in custody. As part of the proceedings against the ex-minister, information appeared in the press that almost 200 million euros had been found in the accounts of the politician.
      Against the background of the fact that a few weeks later, data were published on the facts of bribery by representatives of the German defense company Ferrolstaal for concluding a contract in February 2010. for the purchase of submarines, the investigation had serious reasons to assume the criminal origin of the funds.
      In addition to imprisonment, A. Tsokhatzopulos was sentenced to a fine of 520 thousand euros and confiscation of property.
      A. Tsohatzopoulos himself denied all charges and said that he intends to appeal. "The truth was hidden, and everything that happened was a mistake of justice," he told reporters before going back to jail.
      Note that the case against A. Tsokhatzopulos is called the biggest corruption scandal of the decade. It is noteworthy that in the 1990s. the ex-minister enjoyed widespread support from citizens and was seen as a possible candidate for the post of head of government from the PASOK party.
      A. Tsohatzopoulos held the post of Defense Minister since 1996. to 2001 After the deployment of a corruption scandal in April 2011. A. Tsohatzopoulos was expelled from PASOK. Three months later, the Greek parliament stripped the former minister of immunity from prosecution on suspicions of corruption. "
      Source RBC. Society
      So that... feel
      1. +1
        6 March 2013 15: 37
        We will not have 100% of this, they will shout for a couple of months and everything will die out, as with prosecutors in the suburbs.
    3. WADUHa
      +4
      5 March 2013 20: 20
      And who among those in power were judged in the country, including for the genocide of the people?
  9. +5
    5 March 2013 09: 23
    Everything connected with "Serdyukovism", except for swearing and bloodlust, does not cause any emotions. It is high time for everyone to understand and take it as an axiom that NOT "every cook can run the state"!
    If you do it, you can't rake it up .... And everyone is cheerful and cheerful !!! Although the fact of sabotage is obvious, and this is in addition to financial scams. Someone sometime for something in this middle "elite" will be responsible?
    1. Pinochet000
      0
      5 March 2013 09: 36
      Quote: Goodmen
      NOT "every cook can run the state"!

      Quote: Goodmen
      Well done - not raking ....

      Quote: Goodmen
      in this middle "elite"

      good
    2. stroporez
      +1
      5 March 2013 09: 45
      will not ....... will not. "their" "their" --- will not condemn .... unfortunately
    3. Fox
      +2
      5 March 2013 10: 31
      Quote: Goodmen
      NOT "every cook can run the state"!

      oh, these cuttings from phrases .... a complete Leninist phrase: "we must create such an education system in which even a cook can run the state ..." something like that ...
      1. 0
        5 March 2013 11: 15
        smile Perhaps he was mistaken manko, but the meaning is clear to everyone - the cook must cook food, form it as you like, but she cannot control the state - she is mentally a cook.
        1. stroporez
          0
          6 March 2013 11: 38
          so exactly ---- The trouble is, since the pies will start the cobbler oven,
      2. s1н7т
        +1
        6 March 2013 00: 27
        Quote: Fox
        full Leninist phrase: "we must create such a system of education in which even the cook can run the state ..."


        Literally like this:
        "We are not utopians. We know that any laborer and any cook are not able to immediately take control of the state. In this we agree with the Cadets, and with Breshkovskaya, and with Tsereteli. But we differ from these citizens in that we demand immediate breaking with the prejudice of running the state, carrying on the everyday, daily work of government is only able-bodied officials capable of, or demanding wealthy families.We demand that government training be given by conscious workers and soldiers and that it be started immediately, ie. e. to learn that immediately began to attract all the working people, all the poor. "
        Ilyich was far from a fool! laughing
        1. 0
          6 March 2013 08: 31
          Of course Ilyich was not a fool. I did not mean social status. But how many people were and will be in the power of people who are completely inappropriate to their position? Yes, a lot. In the system, along with professionals, convenient people are also needed.
  10. +4
    5 March 2013 09: 27
    Was that Serdyukov talking about the thieving layer in the Army? Perhaps for this reason, billions were lost at the top so that the ensigns did not get it?
  11. +8
    5 March 2013 09: 32
    Oh my God! Startooooooooooooo ...
    Why are they so mocking people ??? Dismiss, cut, recruit, fire, cut, recruit ... How much longer will this go on?
    1. 0
      5 March 2013 13: 28
      While ignorant people will stand in the power of the state. There will be no real criminal liability for the damage caused to the state by persons standing at the head of the state, regardless of their position up to the President and the Prime Minister. Until then, this idiocy will continue.
  12. +3
    5 March 2013 09: 34
    I doubt that the institution of ensigns can be fully restored. The army is strong in traditions, and the connection of generations has been broken, and even those who still serve as ensign have lost faith in traditions ... Ensign schools? And who will be the teacher in them? In my understanding, the mentor should be a gray-haired ensign who has passed through fires and waters, who knows how to teach future ensigns to act in any situation with a word and example from his service. And after such an attitude to ensigns, will there be such?
  13. stroporez
    +6
    5 March 2013 09: 43
    a "correct" ensign for the army is a necessity. they had many nicknames, and among them there were reptiles. but the real ensign is a VERY important person for the unit. Because Serdyukov openly destroyed the army, I think, that's why he got rid of ensigns. they are not soldiers (you can shut up figs) and they know the situation "from the inside", and in a period of several years. why such people are "reformers". I have good memories of Soviet ensigns. och often they were called "trench captains" --- really "fathers of commanders"
  14. 0
    5 March 2013 09: 44
    There are several warrant officers in the army who are almost familiar; they all remained in their posts and salaries; now they will simply be returned their ranks.
    1. +2
      5 March 2013 10: 16
      Quote: BARKAS
      now they will simply be given back their titles.

      Has someone demoted them?
      1. Explore
        +3
        5 March 2013 11: 40
        Vladimirets,
        No, it’s just that the warrant officer was registered as a sergeant / senior sergeant.
        Now there will be a warrant officer in the position of warrant officer.
        A person can be demoted only by decision of a court or military trebunal.
        1. +1
          5 March 2013 11: 51
          There are a lot of military on the site, I think everyone understands what I mean:
          Quote: BARKAS
          in the army, they practically all remained in their posts and salaries, now they will simply be returned their ranks.

          Quote: Vladimirets
          Has someone demoted them?

          What does it have to do with
          Quote: Explorar
          it’s just that the warrant officer was registered as a sergeant / senior sergeant.
          Now there will be a warrant officer in the position of warrant officer.

          Everyone knows that position and title are two different things, and
          Quote: Explorar
          A person can be demoted only by decision of a court or military trebunal.
  15. Mikado
    -3
    5 March 2013 09: 58
    "Everything seems to be great. But there is also one nuance."

    The author-author, it is immediately obvious that the person is far from the realities of the RF Armed Forces. No one threw 142 thousand ensigns and warrant officers over the fence, they simply ceased to appropriate these ranks, and those who had these ranks remained with them and even in their posts. In the Federation Council, for example, even under Serdyukov, there were a lot of midshipmen and ensigns, so where to get 55 thousand is not at all a question.
    1. Nik26
      +5
      5 March 2013 11: 04
      It is immediately obvious that you are either a military bureaucrat or a "jacket". When an ensign, and even more so an officer, is put on the position of sergeant, it is not only insulting, but it is also a loss in monetary allowance, the value of which you earned with your hump, sleepless nights and as a result of this health was undermined. If your wages were halved by order, you would feel what it is! And one more thing ... You were proud of your social status, respect from your kind colleagues and "not so" .... And then, overnight, you were "lowered" to the position of an empty and useless place. I am sure that it was not Taburetkin himself who did it personally, but his confidants, thieving generals, who have an eternal itch, where to steal. Sorry.
      1. Mikado
        -1
        5 March 2013 12: 37
        Maybe you don't read well? Well, I repeat - "and those who had these titles remained with them and even in their posts“We had (and still are) both officers and a midshipman who were in sergeant-petty officers, BUT, these were new people who came voluntarily initially to these positions, from schools, from other types of the Armed Forces, because even in these positions in the Federation Council, mothers pay, don't worry, no one lowered them, especially since no one lowered the “honored people.” Warrant officers-warrant officers with a higher civil education were certified as officers.
    2. +2
      5 March 2013 13: 30
      The author is closer to the realities of the Russian Armed Forces than you think ...
      But your information, to put it mildly, does not quite correspond to reality. The ensigns and midshipmen who remained in their posts are a drop in the ocean compared to how many of them lost their posts. How do you imagine the situation: You stopped assigning the title of 142 to thousands of potential ensigns and midshipmen? What kind of nonsense ... If you have documentary evidence that all the ensigns and warrant officers remained in their places, you would love to meet him. And why did Shoigu raise a wave? ..

      take 55 tys no question at all.
      - why is the required number of contract sergeants and privates "taken" - a question, but ensigns - not a question ... They sit and wait for an invitation, or what? ..
      1. -2
        5 March 2013 13: 41
        And now warrant officers are needed? Yes, an ill-considered decision was made. Yes, it hit the troops hard. But now what? To return the positions of warrant officers and come to terms with the fact that there will be conscripts in the positions of sergeants?

        You are doing repairs in the apartment. Half the wallpaper was ripped off. Then they changed their minds and decided to stick the scraps back. What is the result you get?
        1. s1н7т
          +3
          6 March 2013 00: 37
          Quote: Spade
          And now warrant officers are needed?

          We do not need warrant officers, but specialists. They simply could not figure out where to get them, they decided to restore the old institute. But - without the "Abwehr schools", without teachers and methods already. Another stupidity, which makes it even clearer that no one at the "top" really thinks about the army. Some declarations and expenditures of budget money.
          1. 0
            6 March 2013 10: 59
            Here I am about that.
        2. stroporez
          0
          6 March 2013 10: 53
          I am sure that the ensigns are simply too dangerous for all kinds of reformers and this is the main reason for their liquidation ...........
      2. Mikado
        +1
        5 March 2013 17: 48
        Quote: Volodin
        How do you imagine the situation: Stopped assigning the title to 142 thousand potential warrant officers and warrant officers?


        They did not have to assign anything AGAIN, they had already been awarded the ranks of ensigns and warrant officers, no one took these ranks from them. To understand this, you need to understand at least a little in the military system, do you understand? We stopped assigning these titles to new people who did not have the title of ensign or midshipman before, is that clear? I repeat, especially for you, those who had these titles, they were not taken away, but left, they just stopped assigning to the newly "arrived", understand, right?

        Quote: Volodin
        If you have documentary evidence


        Do you have documentary evidence that:
        Quote: Volodin
        Warrant officers and warrant officers who remained in their posts are a drop in the bucket compared to how many of them have lost their posts.
        ?


        Quote: Volodin
        why is it possible to "take" the required number of contract servicemen-sergeants and privates, but ensigns - not a question ... They sit and wait for an invitation, or what? ..


        We turn on the head, 55 thousand warrant officers and warrant officers are already (and have always been, no one dismissed them or canceled their rank) in the army and the navy and are in their ranks of warrant officer and warrant officer, therefore it is not a question of where to get them.


        Quote: Volodin
        . And why then did Shoigu raise a wave ?.


        Why did Shoigu wave with a new form, with the abolition of belts, footcloths, the introduction of a Marshall star for generals? Is this the most pressing problem of the Russian army?
        1. +2
          5 March 2013 18: 13
          Igor, a great comment, but I don’t understand where you find inconsistencies? .. Documentary evidence that 142 thousand warrant officers have lost their positions is given by the Ministry of Defense itself (someone was transferred to other positions, someone was sent for retraining, those who disagree were pointed out to door) is one. The article contains the direct speech of a person who was laid off, not wanting to change the position to sergeant - that's two. If you need more documentary evidence, then we can "walk" to the nearest military unit, where you will be looking for ensigns in their former positions for a long time. The essence of Serdyukov's reform in relation to ensigns is to turn out of their services to their previous posts. Although the article seems to be written about this ...

          And in general, what is it you answer the question with a question ...
          And if the question on the question:
          just a little understanding of the military system, do you understand?
          And you?...

          You can not answer, because further constructive dialogue still does not work.
          1. Mikado
            -3
            5 March 2013 22: 03
            Quote: Volodin
            Documentary evidence that 142 thousand warrant officers have lost their posts is led by the Ministry of Defense itself (someone was transferred to other posts, someone was sent for retraining, they indicated the door to the dissent) - this is the time.


            "How many were transferred to other positions and what kind of" positions "are these, what if they were equivalent or promoted? How many were sent to training? And what, now our training is considered a shame? How many disagreeing, and most importantly disagreeing with what, were pointed at the door? Documentary evidence "? Where is the link to the official source of the Ministry of Defense, where it is clearly written what and how, that in connection with organizational and staff measures, out of 142 thousand warrant officers and warrant officers, so many were dismissed, so many were lowered in a post, etc.?

            Quote: Volodin
            If you need more documentary evidence, then we can "walk" to the nearest military unit


            I walked, almost every day I walk, to the sea and back. As the midshipman were the commanders of the boats, they remained exactly in the same posts and ranks, only before that position was the rank of midshipman, and now this position corresponds to the title of chief ship foreman. At the same time, the midshipmen in the city, as there were crowds, remained.

            Quote: Volodin
            And in general, what is it you answer the question with a question ...


            Because, before asking others for documentary evidence, first you need to provide your documentaries confirmations, and not links to all kinds of information agencies with anonymous sources and quotes of incomprehensible content.

            "and you?..."

            konesh ...
        2. s1н7т
          +1
          6 March 2013 00: 42
          Quote: Mikado
          Why did Shoigu wave with a new form, with the abolition of belts, footcloths, the introduction of a Marshall star for generals? Is this the most pressing problem of the Russian army?

          The most pressing problem for Shoigu is the beautiful PR of the ongoing "reform".
          And before, marshals and marshals of the military branches / general army had different stars. Now - will they be the same, or what? To save or optimize? laughing
          1. 0
            6 March 2013 00: 53
            Quote: c1n7
            The most pressing problem for Shoigu is the beautiful PR of the ongoing "reform".


            As for the marshall epaulets, this is the initiative of V. Putin here is the link
            http://topwar.ru/24912-tandem-razvalilsya.html#comment-id-962671
            1. Mikado
              0
              6 March 2013 19: 46
              and where it says that this is Putin's initiative? It says it’s just that Putin signed the decree, so Putin signs a lot of things, but not all of this is his initiative
  16. +14
    5 March 2013 09: 59
    In our unit, there is no zampotyla, no zampotekh, no foreman! The uttermost crap, all the logistics and hardware are carried out on a voluntary basis! As the commander of the software department, I also carry the duties of the foreman, the chief of the product and the chief of the matter! Before "optimization" he commanded a platoon with the duties of a company commander. There is nothing to steal in the company, but the work is above the roof, who worked with the personnel, he knows. It is time for such reforms to impose fines on reformers with a multiplier of 10 and prohibit them from holding public office for life!
    1. +4
      5 March 2013 11: 41
      In addition to a fine and a ban on government posts, it would be advisable to send the forest for 10 years.
    2. +1
      5 March 2013 21: 40
      - Prior to his dismissal, he held the position of "foreman of special units" of the Roth: MTO, remrots, sapper, communications, reconnaissance company.
  17. Ashibokov57
    -1
    5 March 2013 10: 04
    Very reminiscent of the times of collectivization in the USSR. The vast majority of dispossessed were non-commissioned officers of the tsarist army, junior commanders of the Red Army in reserve. After that, I had to hastily increase the number of regimental schools and junior and middle command personnel courses in order to correct the mistake.
  18. +1
    5 March 2013 10: 07
    Well, what a country of freaks of rulers, well, we are not lucky for people in power, as far as I remember after the collapse of the USSR, some modernization, transformation, nano, etc., etc.
    1. Misantrop
      +5
      5 March 2013 10: 49
      Quote: bubla5
      as far as I remember after the collapse of the USSR, some modernization, transformation, nano, etc., etc.
      All these obscene experiments began with the death of Brezhnev. And with rare exceptions, they were conducted so clumsily and stupidly that as a result, unable to bear it, the country collapsed. But the reformist itch does not subside ...
  19. Vanek
    +3
    5 March 2013 10: 16
    Where to get it? Where to get it? And it was not necessary to disperse !!!!
  20. Nik26
    +11
    5 March 2013 10: 50
    As a senior warrant officer and a platoon commander with a higher education, he systematically lectured and conducted classes with officers of the regiment's command post in the presence of a com. a shelf. Moreover, he personally conducted classes on combined arms and special training with the entire personnel of the command post, and the officers could not get enough of the fact that they had time to mate. part, while the personnel are in business ... For twenty-one years of service, he witnessed the change of five lumps. a shelf. And those who are of lower rank are countless! I believe that the criminal Serdyukov and his "concubines" are a stage in the formation of a strong state. This has already happened in our history. Hopefully, the leaders will stop accepting "outsiders" for their service and will start thinking in a state way. I serve Russia!
    1. Oberon
      +1
      8 March 2013 20: 16
      Nik26
      I have 32 years of engineering experience, uploaded Baumanka ....
      small raise, already above the roof ...
      but I know my job, and they only bend their fingers and greyhound.
      Have patience with Starin!
  21. dchanc112
    0
    5 March 2013 10: 54
    The ensign is the golden sand on the teeth of an officer!
  22. +6
    5 March 2013 11: 21
    You can be indignant for a long time about the results of Mr. (Seryukov's) thought of Mr. Serdyukov. But who will call at least 1 (one) example of a successful reform of any minister in Russia over the past 10-15 years? Thank you.
    1. +4
      5 March 2013 11: 36
      There are no such examples. There are not even examples with "0" results. All, as one, reforms with a "-" sign.
      We’re not going the right way, comrades.
  23. +6
    5 March 2013 11: 34
    After all, the ensign is not only a classy specialist, but they were practically all of them, but also had great experience in terms of educating the military personnel. It is no secret that even an officer after school, and especially a sergeant, there were practically no teachers, they needed to serve 3-5 years to get on their feet and not shy away from the personnel. The ensigns, especially of the company link, in this sense were real professionals, had great authority, even among the officers, no one knew the personnel and methods of his education, equipment, and weapons. The liquidation of the institution of ensigns was a big mistake and it is gratifying that this was finally understood.
  24. Explore
    +3
    5 March 2013 11: 36
    Everything is idiotic simply - the states of the US Armed Forces looked. There are no warrant officers, but there are categories of sergeants, equivalent to warrant officers and serving for 10 or more years. In the American structure itself, 8 ranks of ranks are worn by the sergeant.
    But we are, the most intelligent - we cancel the ensigns, but we do not introduce new titles.
    Although why in general this circus was needed only Taburetkin know.
    It's funny: to get the rank of sergeant in the RF Armed Forces, you need to either finish a 3-year training at the military school (that’s how they trained the warrant officers), or a company commander will really like it in a year of urgency. So I have two squads went on demobilization. Where's the justice?
    1. DmitriRazumov
      +3
      5 March 2013 12: 15
      Quote: Explorar
      Everything is idiotic simply - the states of the US Armed Forces looked. There are no warrant officers, but there are categories of sergeants, equivalent to warrant officers and serving for 10 or more years.

      For some reason, the stools absolutely did not look in the direction of the German army, where the titles for the non-officer staff are most provided:
      for privates - 8 pieces (corporal): 1-Soldat (ordinary of all kinds), 2-Gefreiter (Gefreiter), 3-Obergefreiter (Obergefreiter), 4-Hauptgefreite (Hauptgefreiter), 5-Stabsgefreiter (Stabsgefreiter) (6-Ober Oberstabsgefreiter), 7-Gefreiter Unteroffizieranwaerter (Gefreiter-Unterofitsiranverter), 8-Gefreiter-Offizieranwaerter (Gefreiter-Offiranverter).
      for Unterofitser - 2:
      1-Unteroffizier (Unteroficir), 2-Stabsunteroffizier (Stabsunterficier);

      for sergeants -5 (corresponds to our ensigns)
      1-Feldwebel (Feldfebel), 2-Oberfeldwebel (Oberfeldfebel), 3-Hauptfeldwebel (Hauptfeldfebel), 4-Stabsfeldwebel (Stabsfeldfebel), 5-Oberstabsfeldwebel (Oberfeltbel)

      for officers candidates - 3:
      1-Fahnenjunker (Fanenjunker), 2-Faenrich (Fenrich), 3-Oberfaenrich (Oberfenrich).
    2. ivachum
      0
      5 March 2013 12: 53
      But there are warrant officers ... soldier In addition to the Air Force, it seems ..... the Navy is definitely there.

      "Warrant Officer Warrant Officer (WO) - a group of ranks in English-speaking countries, as well as in the former colonies of Great Britain. By status warrant officer is intermediate between sergeants and junior officers и is an approximate analogue of a warrant officer in the countries of the former USSR, a graduate student in French and Portuguese-speaking countries, or fenrich in German-speaking countries. In the army of the Russian Empire, the rank of ordinary officer was appropriate; the same word, and not “warrant officer”, was used in the English-Russian dictionary compiled by the US Department of Defense in 1945. [1].

      Unlike junior officer ranks (English commissioned officer), which usually require an officer's patent ("commission") from the head of state or commander-in-chief, the rank of warrant officer is given by order of the minister of defense or commander of the military. In the United States, warrant officers starting with the CWO also receive a patent from the Secretary of Defense, although they are not considered junior ("field") officers; ranging from Captain (Army and Marines) and Lieutenant (Navy and Coast Guard), the patent is granted on behalf of the President of the United States. "
      1. DmitriRazumov
        0
        5 March 2013 13: 01
        Quote: ivachum
        The status of a warrant officer is intermediate between sergeants and junior officers and is an approximate analogue of a warrant officer in the countries of the former USSR, a graduate student in French and Portuguese-speaking countries, or fenrich in German-speaking countries.

        Here, the ranks from the category Fenrich (Faenrich) are not exactly assigned in the German Army only to candidates for officers, i.e. persons who have signed the relevant contracts for multistage training under the officer program and ultimately receive lieutenant epaulets. Military men who do not pass, who are not candidates for officers, receive sergeant insignia. At the same time, three senior feldfebel ranks are higher in seniority. than the corresponding Fenrich’s ranks, when candidates undergo training and service in units.
    3. 0
      5 March 2013 22: 59
      Explore,
      Quote: Explorar
      Everything is idiotic simply - the states of the US Armed Forces looked. There are no ensigns, but there are categories of sergeants equivalent to ensigns

      You are not quite right, in the US Armed Forces there is such a category as a warrant officer, which, in principle, corresponds to our ensign.
  25. _Igor_
    0
    5 March 2013 11: 47
    This is a very complex issue and cannot be resolved in one hour and there is little will from the top
    here is the result:
    there was an institute of ensigns and these people were mostly competent, they were liquidated as a class after 4 years and decided to revive.
    1. as said in the article, units will want to return (the reasons indicated in the article can of course be added more)
    2. for the most part, those who had little to do before retirement moved to a lower position. those. over these 4 years 99% of them are already retired
    3. train new ones here and you get a catch. From whom will ensigns be taught? that’s how it turns out from those who came recently (who saw the ensign in the cinema and in the pictures, but heard about them in jokes) and those who serve for a long time, but as a result of their unsuitability, laziness ...., were not able to walk along career ladder and become the same ensign.

    total: scanty% of those who will return + not more% of those who were forced to go to lower positions and a lot of people from clause 3. and in paragraph 3 there are worthy and later useful people for OUR army. in general, in my opinion, we will get a layer (gasket) which for the most part will not be able to solve (I deliberately omit the word "competently") the assigned tasks, it will take more than 1 year, perhaps 10 years until the institute of warrant officers and warrant officers is revived. now there will be for the most part those who have a sufficient service life and, taking into account who went to the army in those years, so we will get in ensigns and midshipmen who were not able to find work in due time and according to the principle "in order not to do leash work "went to the army on a contract and now when the army gets a decent salary (especially for the regions), they will not miss such a chance
  26. +3
    5 March 2013 11: 53
    Removing the "ensigns" from the troops knocked down the Air Force. In contrast to the landowners, in aviation, practically all the real WORK lay on the foremen. The takeoff of the aircraft is the final product, but for this board to rise into the air ... Platoon commanders are ensign; the foremen of the mouth - the ensign; signalmen, technicians in regiments and bases, MTOshniki, medics, staff. A warrant officer is a person who, along with a fighter, REALLY performed with his hands, maybe not the cleanest, but very necessary work. In our unit there was a case when the Deputy. The Air Force Civil Code, General Merkulov, "tore" senior officers (chiefs of rear services of formations), showing them how to work on the example of a warrant officer, who served as chief of the food and clothing service of a unit. They promised Serega to appropriate the officer. But somehow it was forgotten over time.
  27. ivachum
    0
    5 March 2013 11: 54
    "If no one, then one gets the impression that the failure to fulfill the plans of the reform, or its obviously counterproductive course, does not imply the presence of those responsible. Like, the person did not manage, he took a lot on himself, he could not carry it away, so why shoot him for that?" .. Yes, now, at least, you need to feel sorry for him ... "

    -Well, I couldn’t! I couldn’t! tongue
  28. DmitriRazumov
    +3
    5 March 2013 12: 00
    At one time, I served in the Main Scientific Testing Research Center of the Military Space Forces of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. In our unit there was a warrant who. made almost the entire management plan for inventive and rationalization work. He had more than a hundred applications for inventions, several dozen of which were recognized as inventions. Unfortunately, he got his higher education too late and the command could not assign him an officer rank, but he was in the position of senior engineer (major category). After retiring, this talented engineer quickly found a job as the head of one of the CCs in the RAO UES system (now FSK).
    1. +3
      5 March 2013 23: 23
      Quote: DmitriRazumov
      ensign. did almost the entire management plan for inventive and rationalization work

      In the Khmelnytsky 19th missile division of the OS, as an assistant chief of staff of the division, an officer in the service of the troops (major category), for a long time there was a senior warrant officer Svishchev, who was a local "sodat attraction", a threat of all sorts of violators, a walking encyclopedia of regulations and instructions. With his exemplary service, this senior warrant officer has achieved excellent service in internal attire in all 19 divisions of the division, strict adherence to uniforms and punctual fulfillment of the daily routine. That is what an ensign in "his" place means!
  29. pinecone
    +1
    5 March 2013 12: 01
    The article is ordered. There is another attempt to soften and smear. The criminal activities of the former (and maybe also the future) minister, who quite successfully coped with the task set before him to destroy the RF Armed Forces. is presented as just "reformist attempts". What kind of "attempts" are there in p .... do, when a person worked with all his might, tirelessly, ruined, destroyed, liquidated.
    And here we are pounding, proving to each other that the non-commissioned corps has always been and remains the basis of any army in the world.
    1. 0
      5 March 2013 13: 42
      Whom do you suspect of customers? Warrant officer Sidorov or warrant officer Petrenko? .. And who is the author "otmazyvayut" here? The imagination of readers sometimes knows no boundaries ...
      1. +3
        5 March 2013 23: 06
        Volodin, In Russia, it often happens that no customer or malicious intent is needed - stupidity alone is enough. Another question: If there is a Supreme Commander-in-Chief in Russia, then he appoints the Minister of Defense, and if this minister has been ruining and stealing for many years, then I don't think that this Commander-in-Chief was absolutely unaware. Surely they both officially reported and unofficially "knocked". But for many years everything went the way it went. Why is that? Why didn't they promptly initiate an investigation? Stupidity, or?
        1. s1н7т
          +1
          6 March 2013 01: 05
          Quote: valerei
          Surely they both officially reported and unofficially "knocked". H

          And, probably, unofficially reported ... in someone's pockets. There they stole billions!
        2. stroporez
          0
          6 March 2013 11: 21
          because they - and Serdyukov, and Putin, and Medvedev ----- of the same "blood." I am absolutely sure ------ it was agreed in advance how quickly the roofing paper "to the top" should be sent. Otherwise, how to explain Shaw and Putin and Medvedev so they stand up for tolyana ????????????
  30. -8
    5 March 2013 12: 05
    Restore the institution of ensigns? What for? Another populist initiative.

    It is necessary to create a full-fledged sergeant corps. And the army critically needs this. Was it about the USA? It is such a system that we need. It was such a system that Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov tried to create after the war. Not allowed.

    Yes, it’s difficult to create it, yes, raising the authority of sergeants from the pit in which this authority finds itself is extremely difficult. It is easier to return the ensigns and calm down. But will it give anything for the troops? No.
    1. Explore
      0
      5 March 2013 22: 04
      Excuse me, why is the ensign worse than the sergeant in your opinion?

      A professional sergeant corps is certainly good, but there are things that officers are excessively tasking and a young contractor is stressful.
      According to the experience of military service in 2010-2011, I will say that the authority of the ensign in the companies is even higher than the young lieutenants-platoons. Our at least always remained the CastleCompany in the absence of a company, since neither of the young platooners was taken seriously (both participants in the hostilities)
      When the head of the RAV warehouse, the senior ensign, left, he had to put in his place the starley with 5 years of service in the army. Apparently professional cantract sergeants were not entrusted with the bins of the motherland.

      Here I figured out the difference between a warrant officer and an "ideal sergeant of a new type."
      Both one and the other should undergo 3-year training on the basis of the Higher Education Institution. Good. So the sergeant will become as prepared as the ensign? Only if he also gives his whole life to serving the motherland. Yes, that's bad luck. Any youth drafted into the army can become a KO. For this position, a military rank is provided - sergeant. And many are demobilized with this title. So why the fuck spend THREE years at school and several years of real service, when any conscript can become equal to you in less than a year? And what is your difference from him?
      I have not heard stories that conscripts, even in the two years of the Soviet Army, managed to become ensigns ...
      1. -4
        5 March 2013 23: 14
        Quote: Explorar

        Excuse me, why is the ensign worse than the sergeant in your opinion?

        Nothing. But its existence prevents the emergence of a full-fledged sergeant corps. Why? You answered this question yourself
        Quote: Explorar
        Both one and the other should undergo 3-year training on the basis of the Higher Education Institution.


        Attention, the question: why become a sergeant, if you can go to the school of ensigns?
        1. Explore
          0
          6 March 2013 23: 17
          Lopatov,
          Tear out the words from kotext.
          The fact is that they are trained for the positions of foremen and startups, that is, for those positions where there were former warrant officers.
          KOs, as before, are either trained from conscripts in 5-month training courses, or they are trained as "worthy" soldiers. Moreover, from personal experience - half of the newcomers (you are right after the oath), half of the old-timers (if you can even call that a person after 6 months of service).
          And yes, what should the sergeant feel after 3 years of training, having met with the sergeant-conscript, who became the CO?
      2. s1н7т
        0
        6 March 2013 01: 13
        Quote: Explorar
        I have not heard stories that conscripts, even in the two years of the Soviet Army, managed to become ensigns ...

        Have you served in the SA?
        My conscript, Lyosha Reznikov, became a warrant officer in the third period of service. So they served, we are the "old" warriors, and he is the "young" ensign laughing
        1. Explore
          0
          6 March 2013 23: 20
          Excuse me, in what year of service and in connection with what merits?
          Honestly, however, did not serve in the SA laughing :
    2. +2
      5 March 2013 23: 48
      Quote: Spade
      It is necessary to create a full-fledged sergeant corps

      Excuse me, how do you imagine this? The sergeant sleeps next to the soldier, eats at the same table, serves in the same outfit, so gradually the familiar relations begin with one: Vasya, Kolya, Petya and the unregulated relations with others: a solobon, he washed and stroked my uniform and then horn I will give. The ensign will never be humbled to hazing, his responsibility is a cut above that of the sergeant, so they were often placed on duty in parts in separate battalions, car parks, and even sometimes on duty on the regiment. And they never failed.
      1. -1
        6 March 2013 11: 08
        Quote: bistrov.
        The sergeant sleeps next to the soldier, eats at the same table, serves in the same outfit, so gradually the familiar relations begin with one: Vasya, Kolya, Petya and the unregulated relations with others: a solobon, he washed and stroked my uniform and then horn I will give.

        And you are absolutely satisfied with the preservation of this, right. After all, the appearance of warrant officers in the troops does not solve this problem at all.
        1. 0
          6 March 2013 23: 18
          Quote: Spade
          And you are absolutely satisfied with the preservation of this

          No, this situation does not suit me, but the sergeant cannot replace the ensign, and the ensign of the sergeant can. Therefore, you need to think, experiment. What do you offer? Calls alone will not help.
    3. s1н7т
      +1
      6 March 2013 01: 07
      Quote: Spade
      Was it about the USA? It is such a system that we need.

      Yeah, I've heard that before - Chubais, Gaidar ...
      1. -1
        6 March 2013 11: 10
        Quote: c1n7
        Yeah, I've heard that before - Chubais, Gaidar ...

        Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov ...
  31. Suitcases
    +1
    5 March 2013 12: 11
    Obviously, the ideological inspirers of reform thought

    Obviously not
  32. +1
    5 March 2013 12: 42
    Yeah ... I do not talk to the field doctor about the theft of ensigns. In comparison with him and with his trained pups, the heads of the depots are the lambs of God.
    In spite of all the individual negatives that took place earlier, the elimination of the "class" of warrant officers is a crime aimed at undermining the state's defense capability.
  33. sudnew.art
    +1
    5 March 2013 12: 56
    Oh, this Serdyukov decided to save on the army, so that he could get the saved money from himself. Does anyone know if he was imprisoned or not?
  34. +1
    5 March 2013 13: 08
    Quote: IRBIS
    Theft was revealed in the amount of the state budget of the average country, but we have so far only witnesses! Story! Only for us this tale is terrible.
    All of them do not have Gleb Zheglov, and the rest have a small intestine. One thing is good - they even talked about it, but literally a year and a half ago they didn’t steal in the country at all (or they didn’t talk about widespread theft). We can’t bring order to the country without executions (possibly massive) in the country, the people, especially the younger generation, are so corrupted that the specialty of the worker has become an obscene phrase.
  35. +4
    5 March 2013 13: 28
    The president must be asked, he appoints and oversees the activities of law enforcement agencies, nothing is done without his knowledge and he doesn’t have to pretend that he has nothing to do with it, the power system is almost completely absent and what remains is degraded by the incompetence of officials and their impunity for the deed , a complete replacement of the country's power system is needed.
  36. Oleleg
    -3
    5 March 2013 13: 32
    It is finally necessary to make the sergeant corps professional. It is possible to introduce an additional 1-2 sergeant ranks and the question will be removed.
    1. stroporez
      0
      6 March 2013 12: 01
      judgments - like Sharikov ..........
      1. Oleleg
        0
        6 March 2013 15: 13
        Offend all the excuses, on the topic is what? If not, what is crowing?
  37. 0
    5 March 2013 13: 34
    As part of the Russian Armed Forces, the presence of the institution of ensigns is simply necessary. It is only necessary to strengthen their functional training. One of the drawbacks of the SA was a critical decline in the status of non-commissioned officers and poor functional training of ensigns.
    1. s1н7т
      0
      6 March 2013 01: 15
      Have you served in the army ?!
      1. +1
        6 March 2013 15: 44
        The fact of the matter is that I served, and I'm talking about what actually happened. The sergeants in the subunits came from the "training" "raw" in terms of combat training, the rank and file of their years of draft, during these six months in the unit received much more in practical terms. Sergeant, in sovokukpnosti this concept, they became somewhere towards the end of the next time period of the year.
  38. +2
    5 March 2013 13: 36
    "But why are they mocking people so much ??? Fire, cut, recruit, fire, cut, recruit ... How long will this continue?"
    Iraclius Today, 09:32


    While ignorant people will stand in the power of the state. There will be no real criminal liability for the damage caused to the state by persons standing at the head of the state, regardless of their position up to the President and the Prime Minister. Until then, this idiocy will continue.
  39. ko88
    -2
    5 March 2013 13: 49
    everything is right, the army must rest on professional sergeants, since we have headed for a professional army.
    1. Pinochet000
      +1
      5 March 2013 15: 02
      Yes, the point is not even in what this pro is called, just mentally the sergeant in our army did not associate with the pro ... The bottom line is that the old system was broken with loss of personnel, but the new one was not built. With the personnel policy in the Ministry of Defense, and in the state as a whole, something is wrong .... while factors such as matchmaker, brother, United Russia will influence the results of personnel selection, I’m ready to share, etc. ..... it will not work nothing IMHO
  40. y450ee
    +1
    5 March 2013 13: 51
    No matter how much they scolded the police, I myself am a police major, but I haven’t seen such thefts like the military, African countries can be fed .. and where is the guilty one - .. NO .. draw a conclusion .. we are not allowed to investigate such frauds ..
    1. s1н7т
      +3
      6 March 2013 01: 19
      I have nothing against the police major, I even respect, but in my time, and lieutenants wrote in Russian correctly.
  41. ko88
    +1
    5 March 2013 14: 05
    theft is and there is a lot of it among the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which is already measured here in grams, all are good (( bully
  42. -1
    5 March 2013 14: 46
    Serdyukov needs to be planted, and everyone calves with him ... would give him to GBshnikov there, he would immediately speak.
  43. sucker
    +1
    5 March 2013 15: 30
    Probably with a delay I write, everyone has already expressed everything, but during my service in the GSVG (before the collapse of the Soviet Army), among the ensigns I did not observe thieves. It was a matter, of course, but this was monitored and, if it was caught, then there were demonstrative flogging.
  44. 0
    5 March 2013 15: 37
    And some, and for this, including, Hero of Russia received ...
    Awww, Mr. Makarov, where are you ?!
    How is the Chief Controller of the aircraft doing?
  45. +1
    5 March 2013 16: 02
    In our unit, there is no zampotyla, no zampotekh, no foreman! The uttermost crap, all the logistics and hardware are carried out on a voluntary basis! As the commander of the software department, I also carry the duties of the foreman, the chief of the product and the chief of the matter! Before "optimization" he commanded a platoon with the duties of a company commander. There is nothing to steal in the company, but the work is above the roof, who worked with the personnel, he knows. It is time for such reforms to impose fines on reformers with a multiplier of 10 and prohibit them from holding public office for life!
  46. servant
    +1
    5 March 2013 16: 30
    Under Serdyukov, the ensigns were driven to survival courses who tried not to dismiss, under the new minister, the ensigns with a length of service of 20 years and above are sent to Shmas to be trained by drivers, crane operators, etc. with living in the barracks, although they serve in completely different military specialties! What for? What would the last run away?
  47. 0
    5 March 2013 17: 35
    Warrant officers and midshipmen had a minimum secondary specialized education, thanks to which they were well versed in technology. If an officer after school came to an unfamiliar technique, then there was someone to learn about. Now the education system is broken. Everyone has a higher education, but humanitarian. Where to get specialists? Maybe the directors of enterprises offering to combine the service and supervision of technology are right?
    1. +3
      5 March 2013 20: 24
      I completely agree! My first paramedic, ensign Valentin Petrovich Zhemchugov, could work, and he prepared the parts, ointments and solutions for the chief, himself, and learned self-taught. I put the young lieutenant m / s on my feet and taught me the service. I bow to them mid-level specialists of the Soviet Army!
    2. s1н7т
      -2
      6 March 2013 01: 22
      Quote: Vasya
      an officer after school came to an unfamiliar technique

      In NATO, or what? laughing
      1. Misantrop
        +2
        6 March 2013 01: 57
        Quote: c1n7
        Quote: Vasya
        an officer after school came to an unfamiliar technique
        In NATO, or what?

        By the time of my graduation from the school in the combat formation of the USSR Navy there were three generations of nuclear submarines with completely different facilities and their characteristics. This is not counting non-serial. Installation (on average) takes 3-4 not the smallest compartments. Is it possible to learn ALL of this not only from the drawings, but also locally? Therefore, ALL gave them to the school. But ... in general .. So it was necessary, coming to serve on a specific ship, to start studying anew. In fact, the normal operator of AEU (which you can leave on the watch yourself without fear, which will hurt) turned out to be in the 4-5 year of service.
  48. Marek Rozny
    +1
    5 March 2013 17: 51
    What for arrange a tragedy out of the blue and puzzle? Let the Russian Defense Ministry turn to face Kazakhstan’s neighbor and see how the warrant officers were reformed into the sergeant’s corps. At the same time, they will look at how and where sergeants are trained.
    1. s1н7т
      0
      6 March 2013 01: 24
      It is not necessary to look at Kazakhstan (USA, Germany, etc.), but what you need. But the trouble is that the Moscow Region does not know what is needed.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +1
        6 March 2013 09: 37
        The Kazakh army started from the same positions in 1991 as the Russian one. Until recently, the structure of the troops was identical to the Russian one. Now, the fundamental difference is precisely in the creation of a professional sergeant corps. Initially, the ensigns were transferred, but at the same time they were retrained in special military universities and courses.

        On September 1, 1996, training began for the first personnel sergeants in the primary military education program. Three years later they were to serve in the posts of squad commanders and platoon sergeants in the troops.

        In 2001, gradual changes began to be introduced into the structure of the institute of sergeants (foremen). That year, new sergeant posts were introduced, such as sergeant platoon, company, and battalion. In 2004, a link appeared from the sergeant of the brigade (base, arsenal) to the Chief sergeant of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan. In order to monitor the activities of the staff of sergeants (foremen) in the Committee of Chiefs of Staff of the MO in 2005, the Office for Work with Sergeant Staff was created.

        With the introduction of new positions in the composition of sergeants (foremen), the Law of the Republic of Kazakhstan “On Military Duty and Military Service” in 2005 introduced additional military ranks, such as sergeant 3 classes, sergeant 2 classes, sergeant 1 class, staff sergeant and master sergeant.

        In order to ensure the continuous functioning of the education system, to increase theoretical knowledge and practical skills, training and advanced training for sergeants are organized before being appointed to the highest position. A standard scheme for the career growth of sergeants has been approved, according to which, constantly improving their knowledge and skills, passing the levels of coursework, the department commander can have a career increase to the Chief sergeant.

        In 2010, the Chairman of the Committee of Chiefs of Staff decided to create mobile training groups (IUTG) for training junior command personnel. This has become one of the most productive innovations.

        Mobile training groups were created in the military branches and regional commands from among the sergeants, the most trained in specific subjects of training. Only 54 people, each sergeant included 8 sergeants. To prepare these groups, educational and methodological courses were organized with the participation of the best methodological teachers. Having undergone the necessary training, these groups, moving from the garrison to the garrison, trained the entire category of sergeants in their mouths (batteries) - and this is more than 600 people;

        In 2011, adopting the positive experience of the previous year, in order to reach students more widely, mobile training groups were already created in 18 military garrisons in the amount of 144 people. At the moment, in each garrison, the IUTG forces are conducting training courses with platoon sergeants and unit commanders. Thus, in the summer training period, it is planned to train more than 6000 sergeants of the "squad-platoon" link, who, in turn, will apply the knowledge they have learned to train their subordinates;

        Tactical drill and instructor-methodical classes, special training of sergeants are conducted with young sergeants, where the tactical and technical characteristics of equipment and weapons of engineering and artillery units are studied. Artillery units additionally carry out firing from artillery systems. Airborne training is being held in the Airmobile Forces, parachuting is being organized.

        At the end of the training, sergeants are led to the ritual of entering the Sergeant corps of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan with the issuance of certificates, welcome letters from unit commanders, mentors from among more experienced sergeants are assigned to young sergeants.

        =

        I don’t know what Shoigu will come up with, but knowing that Russia has recently copied Kazakhstan’s laws, I won’t be surprised if this reform is carried out according to the Kazakh model.
        1. Oleleg
          0
          6 March 2013 15: 24
          Don't bother, nobody will hear your arguments here! The crowd on this site dreams of the revival of the "former greatness". Correct and adequate approaches are not perceived here because the "former greatness" was not so !!!!
        2. 0
          6 March 2013 18: 04
          Marek Rozny (5) KZ Today, 09:37
          Well, about the advancement of all Kazakhstani undertakings, you certainly turned down. And about the current structure of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan, this is an unsuccessful copy of the American army. And it all looks pretty awkward.
  49. galiullinrasim
    +1
    5 March 2013 18: 01
    it is necessary to revive the institute of ensigns. people will go. only the conditions of service must be different. enter before the commanders in ensigns and drove out. 4 outfits in part 1 guard 2 pokukhnea even to replace if again the ensign is especially young. When I got married, I did not spend the night at home for 22 days. his wife believed. Prapora was the cementing link between conscripts and officers, while specialists of the highest category. Equipment and weapons are becoming more complicated and need special exploitation for years. The contractor will be 3-5 years old and then everything will start again, especially since the conscript you can learn the subtleties. and if prapora is even more and it will be sent to study through the nth time. we’ve been trained for half a year and we have studied the rest in advance. I just wasn’t a driver, I started as a platoon, a fireman, and a fireman.
    1. Oleleg
      0
      6 March 2013 15: 26
      Dear, well, a professional sergeant is not needed or what you listed is not the work of a sergeant? Why is he then ???
  50. +1
    5 March 2013 20: 21
    But thanks to ensigns, a whole genre of jokes has appeared.
    No, it is boring without warrant officers.
    You give ensigns !!! Different and more!
    And where to get them, let the Supreme decide.
    Our innovator is restless.

    He abolished them - even restore.
  51. +2
    5 March 2013 20: 59
    guys, sorry for being off topic, but a bill has been introduced into the Duma. United Russia deputy, member of the defense committee Alexey Zhuravlev proposes a bill on introducing a new subject for boys in grades 10-11 on the basics of military affairs. The deputy proposes introducing a separate academic subject in the amount necessary for the student’s mastery of basic knowledge about state defense and military duty of citizens. At the same time, it is proposed to hold mandatory training camps for high school students at the base of military units at least twice a year, lasting at least five days. It’s a pity that I don’t study at school, our training camps were only after 10th grade for 5 days
    1. s1н7т
      0
      6 March 2013 01: 33
      Quote: Kair501
      we had training camps only after 10th grade for 5 days

      Gee! And from the 5th grade onwards, a sergeant from the military unit was assigned to each class - drill, weapons, regulations, tactics. By 10th grade - ready sergeants for the USSR Armed Forces laughing 2/3 of the class are in the army, the rest are in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB.
      And there were drill songs from the “0” grade, and parades and school parades. And each class had its own uniform - I started (in 0) with the Air Force - a blue cap was required. I still remember a great march (there were some like this) - “Eaglets learn to fly”laughing
      85th school of the GSVG, 69-71.
  52. Mopnex133
    +3
    6 March 2013 05: 02
    There is nowhere in the army without warrant officers.
    The same company sergeant. A contractor can, in principle, cope, but will it? The salary is not the same. And the sergeant major is assigned a decent amount of tasks. Not every double bass can handle it. Yes, and contract soldier is different from contract soldier. If you served in the army for 5-10 years, then yes. But if yesterday’s conscript is snotty, then excuse me.
    I can give a lot of examples.
  53. +3
    6 March 2013 10: 36
    An old aviation joke from Soviet times. In the Air Force, technicians rose in rank like this: lieutenant, senior lieutenant after 5 years, then Petrovich. The incentive for an ensign was much better. Ensign, after 5 years Petrovich, and only then could he get a senior.
    By the way, training to become a warrant officer took 6-10 months, an officer 3-5 years. Serdyukov completed a 3-month course. So who is the easiest to train?
  54. YOU
    0
    6 March 2013 18: 13
    They know who to ask, but they don’t want to ask.
  55. +1
    6 March 2013 20: 17
    It’s simply awful how much harm a random person in a high position can do.
  56. +1
    6 March 2013 22: 18
    Serdyukov - to the wall! who's for it?
  57. +2
    7 March 2013 00: 43
    Good news.
    Initially, even then, commanders at all levels were shocked by the liquidation of the ranks of warrant officers and midshipmen. But as you remember, all the dissenting generals were then sent into retirement. Ensigns (including me) were called “thieves” from the screens and pages of SMRAD and put behind the fence.
    The most valuable personnel link, technicians and specialists, were snatched from the army.
    The article correctly states that the authority of the warrant officer sergeant major and technician in the unit was, as a rule, very high. For the ensign is an “old and experienced soldier” who also served on conscription, who knows the psychology of a soldier and therefore it will not work to fool his brain like a young lieutenant. Warrant officers always ensured the combat readiness of the unit. The warrant officer-technician is usually the head of all driver mechanics and drivers of the unit and he was responsible for maintaining weapons and military equipment in the BG. This means the unit’s ability to complete the task. The warrant officer-sergeant major is the “father and mother” of the soldier who dresses him, feeds him, washes him, puts him to bed, does useful work, and ensures the life of the unit in the field.
    I served in the Motorized Rifle Brigade, on May 9, 2008, there was a festive formation of the brigade in full dress uniform, and here the contract soldiers saw warrant officers and senior warrant officers on whose chests sparkled orders and medals against the backdrop of the clean uniforms of young officers, only a few had the same number of awards officers from major and above who fought in Afghanistan and Chechnya, including two wars. And later everyone was called swindlers and thieves and the unit was kicked out of the gate.
    The most valuable thing in the army is people. And if you treat people like “little green men” and “who don’t fit into the image of the Armed Forces,” then it will end sadly for the country.
    We wish Shoigu success on the right path, for now.
  58. +2
    7 March 2013 01: 37
    After all, as they said in the SA, comrade cadet, don’t bother yourself with unnecessary things. Get your shoulder straps, when you join the troops, there are warrant officers there, they will teach you everything.
  59. 0
    7 March 2013 03: 10
    If Serdyukov served in the Armed Forces, then the sergeant major really had him, so he became embittered. Every fagot dreams of fucking someone else.
  60. +1
    7 March 2013 04: 57
    Quote: Fitter65
    After all, as they said in the SA, comrade cadet, don’t bother yourself with unnecessary things. Get your shoulder straps, when you join the troops, there are warrant officers there, they will teach you everything.

    And they taught, and I taught.
    Let’s say you heard soldiers call a lieutenant by name, immediately build who is “not to blame,” make a remark and find something to do. And you explain to the lieutenant the basic truths that you are the commander, they are subordinates, let them keep their distance, behind the fence outside of duty, no matter how, but in the service this is the only way. Familiarity will not lead to any good. Well, and so on with all sorts of army wisdom.
  61. +1
    7 March 2013 14: 43
    At one time, we had a company commander, while he was a platoon commander, he was still on duty, received a captain and a company and was assigned to service. He appeared only in the mornings, for divorce, well, even if he was on duty. The entire company hung on one platoon commander and ensigns. Moreover, the platoon commander dealt with soldiers, equipment on ensigns. For 4 years the company was the best, although the company commanders changed 2 times, the tradition of being the best remained. But then the Defense Ministry headed 0, and that’s all. First of all, he discorded the army by offering to pay grandees to the officers. And the rest were screwed without butter .And it turned out to be a paradox, those who plowed on equipment in the heat and cold turned out to be unworthy of grants, and those who sat in the headquarters received a grant. Although there were worse things. The commander takes the main raiders and directly offers - I give you a grant, you give me 50% from him. There is a sharp decline in discipline and efficiency in the unit and the unit as a whole. Considering that a lieutenant whose length of service in months is several times less than my years, but has received more penalties than I have for 25 years of promotions, receives a grant, and I am forced to hunch my shoulders instead... The incentive to serve honestly has disappeared, why strain if someone else is paying for it. It will be difficult to return this moment to normal.
  62. caprall
    0
    8 March 2013 17: 49
    In many armies of the world there are so-called non-commissioned officers, in our opinion ensigns, namely the layer between officers and sergeants, occupying various positions, both combatant and non-combatant. It was the same in the USSR; naturally, the army reacted to the life of society as a whole, which is why the impression of warrant officers was that they were swollen with fat in warehouses, etc. But most of them were technicians with extensive service experience. The problems were in the organization of the army, insufficient physical training and virtually no physical tests for both soldiers and officers. For example, in NATO countries, if you don’t meet physical fitness standards and don’t improve within a certain period of time, goodbye.
  63. 0
    12 March 2013 20: 06
    everything is the same as before and nothing changes, at first they think like an ass and do it, and then realize that they are doing it wrong.... I hope for Shoigu, I really want to believe that he will bring order to the Moscow Region..
  64. DIMKEY
    0
    1 June 2013 00: 27
    I studied at the school of sergeants on the basis of the school of warrant officers, what will they do with us (those who graduated from the school of sergeants) now? After all, our military training is like that of warrant officers, but the rank doesn’t matter. I heard that they are already pushing our people to become sergeants (lower grade, at least go study again, to the same school, for the same knowledge, only now because of the rank.
  65. vg-central92
    0
    28 October 2013 01: 16
    Of course, it was easier for Serdyukov to accuse warrant officers and midshipmen of theft than pot-bellied generals... And he himself stole as much as an ensign would not have been stolen in a hundred years... I don’t even understand where the stereotype that warrant officers steal came from? When he served as a conscript, a sergeant major the company was considered their father! school for ensigns, but it haunts me when people were simply thrown out with a kick in the ass, and now they are calling them back, what if it will be the same in 5-10 years... the army has held on to ensigns and will continue to hold on at all times!