PP-2000. Better than “Stechkin”, worse than “Ksyukha”

43
PP-2000. Better than “Stechkin”, worse than “Ksyukha”
Pilots practice shooting from the PP-2000, 2023. “The still life is complemented by a Lebedev pistol and a NAS-IR vest. The collimator, laser target and PBS are only at the shooting range; the PP-2000 comes on board without all this.


It began to be developed in the late 1990s as part of the Baksanets R&D project; gunsmiths from Izhevsk, Kovrov, Klimovsk and Tula took part in the work. Our hero is from Tula, created by the Tula Instrument Design Bureau (KBP) named after Shipunov. The development of the submachine gun was led by gunsmiths - academicians Vasily Gryazev and Arkady Shipunov. The patent for the submachine gun was received in 2001, and the first sample was demonstrated at the Interpolitex-2004 exhibition. Serial production started in 2006.




In his best.

In the USSR, the topic of submachine guns was essentially shelved for some time. The last and most significant one that comes to mind is OCD “Bouquet”. Our comrades from the armies of the Warsaw Pact countries had several very successful examples of submachine guns; they were used by fighters who could do without a machine gun, and their compactness weapons and was in first place. Well, they wanted something like this for the Soviet Army.

But then the AKS-74U appeared, and the issue of weapons for vehicle crews was removed, and there were essentially no other customers for submachine guns in the Land of the Soviets. Police special forces in every major city and the State Police in helmets and bulletproof vests with machine guns at the ready will come later. There were KGB special forces, but, in general, they made do with what was available.


Incomplete disassembly of PP-2000. There's not much to break here. Lightweight, compact, reliable. Also pictured is a standard flashlight and two 20-round magazines.

And then in the 90s, customers appeared who needed a weapon chambered for a cartridge that was not as powerful as the “automatic” 5.45 and 7.62, and at the same time automatic. And our designers were blown away...

True, the domestic arms market, in fact completely isolated for a long time, and the absence of R&D on submachine guns for a significant period often led to the fact that our designers reinvented the wheel... Well, the “Uzi”, or more precisely, the Sa vz. 23, definitely reinvented a couple of times.

Plus, the lack of experience with “police” submachine guns led to the fact that designs were often “given birth” that were more suitable for bandits than for the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Subcompacts, compacts, folding designs... The rest of the world has generally come to the conclusion that a police “machine gun” chambered for a pistol cartridge is ideally full-size, with a full-sized butt, heavy enough to “eat up” the recoil of a pistol cartridge, but still lighter than a classic assault rifle or a carbine on its base.


Early samples of PP-2000. An ingenious solution with a stock from a 44-round magazine in all its glory. There is no developed trigger guard - there is no front handle yet, but there is still a cover that covers the cocking handle.

In general, we also came to the same conclusions, albeit after almost 20 years of our journey. We're talking about Bison. First, however, some kind of monster with an auger magazine appeared, but this is a completely different story. story. It’s not just a matter of the flight of design ideas. The customer also did not always understand what he wanted and in what ways.


A law enforcement officer demonstrates shooting from a PP-2000 with two hands and without a stock.

But let's return to our hero.

This is actually an interesting design.

It seems simple, like from the fronts of World War II, a submachine gun with automatic blowback action, but with its own interesting features.

Firstly, it is a low-lying trunk. The weight of the PP-2000 is comparable to the weight of a pistol, but the weapon does not try to “jump out” even when fired from it without a stock and held with one hand. The pistol hand is the neck for the magazine, like many compact submachine guns; a massive trigger guard is connected to it using a jumper, which serves as a front handle and allows you to quite comfortably hold the weapon with both hands. ... Well, that's all.

Next about not so pleasant things.


Interpolitech-2013, soldiers of the 604 TsSN “Vityaz” of the Internal Troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia demonstrate working in pairs from behind a ballistic shield. The “Shchitovik” is armed with a PP-2000, and the PP-2000 turned out to be a very good option for just such work.

As it was developed and brought to production, the PP-2000 got rid of a number of “pleasant” design features. For example, initially it was intended to use only ... a high-capacity magazine, which was inserted into a groove behind and below the receiver, as a butt. Fortunately, a full-fledged stock, a folding frame stock, and later even a telescopic stock appeared. At first there was also no developed trigger guard, which serves as a front handle; how one should hold a submachine gun with both hands is not very clear.

But some features remain.


Yeah, there was such a thing - OTs-126, a civilian, self-loading carbine based on the PP-2000. Didn't take off...

This, for example, is the angle of the pistol grip, namely that it is negative. Yes, not much, it’s almost invisible to the eye, but it’s there. That is, if we take the handle located exactly 90 degrees to the receiver as zero, then ordinary handles for the same machine guns have a positive slope. For example, the handle for AK assault rifles from the manufacturer Magpul (model MOE SL MAG682) has an inclination of 17 degrees, and the PP-2000 has a negative one. Simply put, the handle is “bent” in the other direction.

People who regularly shoot weapons say that over time you get used to it, but at first it is very unusual and uncomfortable. And the fact that the PP-2000, like any weapon, “bounces” when firing only aggravates the situation, especially when held with one hand. And nothing can be done about this, since the pistol grip is, as we remember, also the magazine well. That is, without redoing the entire structure, the ergonomics in this place cannot be corrected. We are designing weapons here, not studying anatomy...


A still from a story on the Zvezda TV channel about self-defense weapons for pilots. The appearance of the PP-2000 among the troops was presented as something incredibly positive... Well, at least something is better than nothing, you can’t argue with that.

On top there is a cocking handle, made with the bolt in one piece, which, when firing, moves along with the bolt. On some prototypes it was covered with a casing, but it later disappeared. Not a problem, of course, but still a rather large moving part that is not covered by anything.


A video message from General Surovikin, recorded during a controversial period in the recent history of our Motherland. The general has a PP-2000 on his leg.

In general, the sum of the characteristics turned out to be a good weapon. In terms of its mechanics, it is a classic submachine gun, reliable and lightweight, and its weight and dimensions have allowed it to become a rather interesting niche weapon. Where you need something more powerful than a pistol, but at the same time in the same weight category and with the ability to be held with one hand, that is, essentially a high-quality subcompact submachine gun. Areas of its application are, for example, working with a ballistic shield, personal security, and working in tight spaces.


Mi-17 co-pilot with PP-2000 in the cockpit of his car, 2023.

And this could have ended there, but February 2022 happened.

Problems popped up like mushrooms after rain. Most of them were already known for a long time, and were even somehow solved, but everything is somehow wrong: it’s not right, the tests haven’t ended yet, etc.

One of these problems was the virtual absence of personal defense weapons (PDW) among our pilots. There are already not enough “Stechkins” and “Ksyukhs” for everyone, there is de facto no replacement for them, and from the PM they can only carry out “Roskomnadzor” so that the enemy does not get it alive.

And against the backdrop of these introductory events, in 2023, PP-2000s began to appear in photos of helicopter pilots. In the summer of 2023, there was information that several helicopter regiments had received the PP-2000 as a self-defense weapon for pilots. Before this, PP-2000s were seen only by pilots aviation Rosgvardia. And immediately there were shouts of joy that this was our dear, domestic PWD.

But there This term primarily means something not chambered for a pistol cartridge, but for an “intermediate” cartridge. It is immediately clear that this measure is in many ways frankly forced.

It is unclear where the RF Ministry of Defense got such a number of these subcompacts at once and why they didn’t look for something else in the bins of the Motherland or in other departments. But it’s an “interesting” time; it’s good that they didn’t hand out sapper blades and didn’t call them PWD.


The most famous photo of PP-2000, Izhevsk, 2010.

It is interesting that in the USSR there was a project of simply a reference PWD - AO-46. Our Heckler & Koch MP7, but only appeared 30 years earlier. But this, as usual, is a completely different story.
43 comments
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  1. +15
    April 26 2024 04: 12
    To all flyers, I wish you not to use self-defense weapons.
    1. -1
      April 26 2024 09: 40
      To all OUR pilots...
      Although, the enemies, if by some miracle they are shot down not over their pigsties, but in our area of ​​​​responsibility, let them not use it either...
    2. +1
      April 27 2024 07: 55
      Quote: Alexander Vasilievich_4
      the angle of the pistol grip, namely that it is negative


      Quote: Alexander Vasilievich_4
      in the USSR there was a project of simply a reference PWD - AO-46


      But the AO-46 has a standard Kalash magazine.
      Ergonomics are so-so...

      Let me remind you about another development from the mid-90s.
      PP "Gepard"

      Unification.
      About 65-70% of the parts were borrowed from the AKS-74U.

      Multi-caliber.
      Capable of using up to 15 (fifteen!!!) types of domestic and foreign pistol cartridges of 9 mm caliber of different power.

      Two medium weapon
      PBS allowed shooting underwater.

      Combat application
      A couple of “Cheetahs” appeared in Chechnya.
  2. +5
    April 26 2024 04: 25
    Well, this clumsy thing is at least compact, unlike the PPK-20.
  3. +5
    April 26 2024 05: 04
    Point blank, I don’t understand why not use a regular AKS in a tight “packaging” (case) for “pdv” tasks. Before evacuation from the vehicle, weight (and size) do not matter, since the weapon is not in the hands anyway, but after AKS it is always better.
  4. +13
    April 26 2024 06: 12
    Strange article. There are a lot of empty words about “magazines as butts” and not a single word about ammunition. There were PP on the 9x18 PM cartridge (if the cartridge * (so-so), then the weapon * (not so much), 9x19, 9x21, etc. It is the cartridge that determines the quality of the PP, but not a word about it.
    1. +3
      April 26 2024 08: 33
      Strange article. A lot of empty words o... and not a single word about ammunition

      What can you do, this is VO, here they pay for the number of words, not for the meaning...((
    2. 0
      April 26 2024 11: 19
      I agree with you, you can also consider the 7,62*25 cartridge.
    3. Eug
      +1
      April 26 2024 12: 27
      100%. I think that it is necessary to make a new 9 mm cartridge with a size of approximately 9x30 (there was a "Thunder") with a good concussive effect, for a HEAVY PP for arming crews.. 9x39 is good, but redundant, we need something weaker, up to 200 m. less lethal.
  5. 0
    April 26 2024 07: 14
    The ergonomics don’t look very comfortable, it seems to me that even the P90 looks more comfortable, but the ammunition and cartridge already matter.
  6. +1
    April 26 2024 08: 24
    Better late than never. and the machine is good.
    1. 0
      April 26 2024 10: 19
      And what's good about it? laughing Still, it is known in comparison - if nothing happened, and suddenly it appeared, this is probably good. But if before that there was an AKS-74U, it’s not good enough. Well, it’s all very bad, because the intermediate cartridge covers a pistol cartridge like a bull covers a sheep.
  7. +4
    April 26 2024 08: 36
    PP is good. Lightweight, compact, very weak recoil, good accuracy, BUT! This is by no means a military weapon.
    1. 0
      April 26 2024 09: 39
      It depends on who you are and whether it’s an army weapon. It may be quite suitable for mortar and grenade launchers.
      1. 0
        April 26 2024 10: 48
        So the PP-2000 cartridge doesn’t bother you? And is it quite suitable against 5,45? And modern SIBZ are not a greater obstacle than for the rest of the rifleman?
  8. +9
    April 26 2024 09: 33
    The article is kind of a mess) It is written about a “monster” with an auger magazine, and the link to the word “history” in the text leads to.... the “History” section of the site. What's the end result? Why a monster? It's not clear from the article. Apparently, the reader must understand everything without words. The same goes for the stock magazine. What is his genius? Or is this sarcasm? In the end, no explanation was provided in the text. The author wrote about “problems that popped up like mushrooms after rain”, aaaand.... In the end, he didn’t write anything. Well, after all, these problems have long been known to everyone. Do you know anything, reader? And would you like to know this from the article? Look what you're up to, you ignoramus, go study the weapon necroforums to discuss the subject and don't ask stupid questions here
    1. +1
      April 26 2024 11: 00
      ... And eleven photographs, ten of which do not make any sense.
      Yes
      1. 0
        April 26 2024 12: 02
        I don't agree. Surovikin with this police scarecrow in the photo is interesting.
  9. 0
    April 26 2024 10: 48
    On top there is a cocking handle, made with the bolt in one piece, which, when firing, moves along with the bolt.

    No matter how hard I looked at the illustrations, I couldn’t see it. If we mean the gas outlet elbow that is shown in the photo in disassembled form, then it remains unclear how it is transformed into a straight end, and how much this affects ease of use.
    1. +1
      April 26 2024 11: 39
      In the photo where a fighter shoots with both hands, it is visible. I don’t understand why a PP with a blowback bolt needs a gas outlet?
      1. +1
        April 26 2024 11: 51
        Quote: Uncle_Misha
        Why does a PP with a blowback valve need a gas outlet?

        This is my mistake) It looks a lot like it happened. It turns out that this long extension in front of the bolt is the handle? Obviously, it was made this way to make the shutter heavier.
        1. +1
          April 26 2024 12: 14
          This handle is used to cock and eject the cartridge (the cartridge case when inserted), and this adds weight. It bends to the right or left, one might say it dangles freely, although with effort. When shooting under the influence of inertia it becomes directly above the barrel.
          1. 0
            April 26 2024 12: 17
            Quote: hhurik
            What does weighting have to do with it. It bends to the right or left, one might say it dangles freely, although with effort. When shooting under the influence of inertia it becomes directly above the barrel.

            Weighting - I mean the rod on which it hangs freely. Thanks for the explanations, it’s difficult to deduce them from the photo.
            1. 0
              April 26 2024 12: 57
              There is a video on the pipe with an analysis, more or less detailed.

              https://youtu.be/YJ4EK6p_das?si=Q3vM28wxnWLBAFQr
  10. +2
    April 26 2024 11: 31
    Why doesn’t anyone want to understand the reason for the failure of the PP among our military? It's clear as day - a cartridge. You won't be able to shoot with such a cartridge. And the weight of the PP is comparable to Ksyukha. That's all.
    1. -1
      April 26 2024 14: 13
      Please explain what cartridge you are talking about. If about 9x18 PM, then why is it bad?
      1. +1
        April 26 2024 15: 44
        Yes, they are all weak. It’s stupid to compare with 5,45. In general, the Belgians were right about theirs. But they didn’t come in either.
        1. 0
          April 26 2024 16: 28
          As I understand it, we are talking about pistol cartridges, but army pistols do not have 5 caliber, and may not be in the future. It will be quite expensive to produce a separate cartridge for a promising PP, which is also unlikely to be adopted in mass quantities. And for special units and PP-45 will do, they have different tasks.
          1. 0
            April 26 2024 16: 30
            Yes.
            the rest is just adding letters wink
  11. 0
    April 26 2024 11: 43
    There are no longer enough “Stechkins” and “Ksyukhs” for everyone; there is de facto no replacement for them...
    Another year back, the guys who were deep in their territory were given the Stechkins in factory lubricant - absolutely new.
    I wonder if the problem of placing the ejection seat 'at hand' was solved or again at NAZ...
    1. 0
      April 26 2024 13: 05
      A few years ago, VPMZ Molot proposed resuming the production of APS in a new format: on CNC machines, the director at the exhibition had a brand new combat APS in his hands with a skewer - he said, the only question is the order.
      1. 0
        April 26 2024 14: 33
        Quote: hhurik
        several years ago it proposed to resume production of APS in a new format
        The guys were given guns that were significantly older than them, significantly feel nove.
        But I’m not sure about starting production again, since the machine is already old
        1. 0
          April 26 2024 14: 35
          Found a video
  12. -1
    April 26 2024 12: 01
    Quote: article
    But some features remain.
    This, for example, is the angle of the pistol grip, namely that it is negative. Yes, not much, it’s almost invisible to the eye, but it’s there. That is, if we take the handle located exactly 90 degrees to the receiver as zero, then ordinary handles for the same machine guns have a positive slope. For example, the handle for AK assault rifles from the manufacturer Magpul (model MOE SL MAG682) has an inclination of 17 degrees, and the PP-2000 has a negative one. Simply put, the handle is “bent” in the other direction.

    People who regularly shoot weapons say that over time you get used to it, but at first it is very unusual and uncomfortable. And the fact that the PP-2000, like any weapon, “bounces” when firing only aggravates the situation, especially when held with one hand. And nothing can be done about this, since the pistol grip is, as we remember, also the magazine well. That is, without redoing the entire structure, the ergonomics in this place cannot be corrected. We are designing weapons here, not studying anatomy...

    Yes, nothing can be done about this, alas... That’s why PPs have not made a pistol grip into a magazine well for a long time. The magazine is placed in front of it where it - SUDDENLY - slightly compensates for the tossing of the barrel with its weight, which makes its low location no longer so necessary... because of which it was ultimately necessary to introduce a negative angle of inclination of the handle... Moreover, for holding I still had to insert the front half-handle onto the forend due to the near-bullet weight distribution. The insidious physics could not be deceived again! And we also had to lengthen the sights - there’s nothing you can do, the low barrel requires sacrifices! Well, the end result... Something comparable to the TEC-9 or M3, only clumsy and which you need to get used to, instead of picking it up and shooting. And the latter will have better technology, although they were invented at least 20 years earlier. But of course it’s original.
  13. -4
    April 26 2024 12: 58
    Bicycle inventors. There is a wonderful machine - PPS-43. Compact, reliable, and the 7,62 TT cartridge is quite lethal.
    1. +1
      April 26 2024 16: 32
      This beautiful machine is larger than the AKS-74U. I don’t remember, but perhaps it was even harder.
    2. 0
      6 May 2024 10: 58
      7n21 is more serious, 7n31 is much more serious.
  14. +1
    April 26 2024 17: 58
    Any automatic weapon with a pistol cartridge is a mockery of common sense
    1. 0
      6 May 2024 10: 57
      How did they fight with such weapons throughout World War II?
      1. 0
        6 May 2024 17: 39
        Where can you go? - what the thinking assholes came up with is what they used
  15. 0
    April 29 2024 13: 23
    How disgustingly scary he is. In my opinion, its barrel is open at the top, and if earth spills out from a nearby rupture, does it need to be disassembled and cleaned?
  16. 0
    6 May 2024 10: 57
    If we talk specifically about Ksyukha’s replacement, then this is AM-17. But the PP-2000 is quite decent as a weapon for pilots, but for tankers and other crews of combat vehicles it is not enough...
  17. 0
    6 May 2024 20: 15
    In my opinion, it would be better if AM 17 was completed quickly. And if you need a PP now or for some reason AM17/AKS-74U are not suitable, then the SR-2M Veresk will be more interesting - the weight and dimensions are not much larger, but the cartridge is still more powerful (the declared effective range is generally 200 meters, but it seems that exaggeration, but it seems you can shoot up to 100 meters)