Is modernization of the ZU-23 necessary?

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Is modernization of the ZU-23 necessary?

Since the first days of the Northern Military District, ZU-23 anti-aircraft artillery mounts have been actively used in combat operations. Twin 23-mm machine guns fight against air targets, destroying enemy personnel, vehicles and light armored vehicles.

Currently, on Russian resources, including in Military Review, there is a lot of talk about the need to modernize the existing 23-mm spark plugs and create a projectile with programmable remote detonation.



To better understand whether this makes sense, this publication will highlight story the appearance of the ZU-23 towed anti-aircraft gun, its characteristics and examples of application, modernization options, as well as prospects for further use are considered.

Creation of the ZU-23 anti-aircraft gun and its characteristics


Until the early 1960s, the main means of combating low-altitude air targets from the Soviet Army were 12,7-mm DShKM machine guns, 14,5-mm anti-aircraft machine gun mounts: ZPU-1, ZPU-2, ZU-2 and ZPU-4, 37-mm 61-K assault rifles and twin B-47. Standing apart were the 57-mm AZP-57 (S-60) guns, which could also reach medium heights.

Anti-aircraft 12,7–14,5 mm machine guns and 57 mm cannons were fully adequate for their purpose in the first post-war decades. But in connection with the offensive in aviation During the “jet era”, 37-mm clip-loading anti-aircraft guns mounted on bulky and heavy four-wheeled “carts” were already considered insufficiently fast-firing and too heavy.

The troops needed a new rapid-firing, compact and lightweight anti-aircraft gun, with ammunition that could reliably engage low-flying subsonic targets at a distance of more than 2 km.

Design of the new installation began in 1955. Three variants were developed and embodied in metal: ZU-40, ZU-575 and ZU-14. Based on the results of military tests, the military chose the lightest one - ZU-14, created at TsKB-14 under the leadership of R. Ya. Purtsen and E. K. Rachinsky. The anti-aircraft gun entered service in 1960 under the designation GRAU 2A13. In documents it is designated as ZU-23-2, but in the army it is usually called ZU-2 or “zushka”.

The ZU-23 anti-aircraft gun consists of the following main parts: two 23-mm 2A14 assault rifles, a machine tool, a wheeled platform, lifting, rotating and balancing mechanisms and sights.


On the base of the upper carriage there are two seats, as well as guidance organs in the vertical and horizontal planes. The installation uses very successful and compact manual drives for vertical and horizontal aiming with a spring-type balancing mechanism, which allow you to transfer the barrels to the opposite side in just 3 seconds. All-round firing is provided in the horizontal plane. Vertical aiming angles: −10°…+90°.

There is no standard anti-aircraft fire control device (FCU), which provides data for firing at air targets (lead, azimuth, etc.), in the anti-aircraft battery. This limits the possibilities of firing at air targets, but makes the installation as cheap as possible and accessible for use by crews with a low educational level.

The ZU-23 is equipped with a ZAP-23 anti-aircraft automatic sight, as well as a T-3 optical sight (with 3,5x magnification and a 4,5° field of view), designed for shooting at ground targets. Sighting devices ensure effective fire against air targets at a distance of up to 2 m, and a height reach of up to 000 m.

The installation has two trigger mechanisms: foot (with a pedal opposite the gunner's seat) and manual (with a lever on the right side of the gunner's seat). Machine gun fire is fired simultaneously from two barrels. On the left side of the trigger pedal there is a brake pedal for the rotating installation unit. Installation weight – 950 kg.

The 23-mm cannon weighs 77 kg, the barrel length is 87 calibers. The automation works by removing part of the powder gases with a wedge locking of the bolt. The design of the machines is the same, only the details of the feed mechanism differ. The right machine has right power supply, the left one has left power supply. Both machines are fixed in one cradle, which, in turn, is located on the top of the machine. The modified 2A14M assault rifle, subject to temperature conditions, has a survivability of more than 5 rounds.


Rate of fire – 1 rounds/min. The total rate of fire from two barrels is twice as much. Practical rate of fire up to 000 rounds/min. Feeding is carried out from a box with a 300-shot tape. The weight of each cartridge box with loaded tape is 50 kg. Changing a box of tapes and loading takes 35,5 seconds.


Firing is carried out with a 23x152 mm cartridge, created on the eve of the war and used in the VYa aircraft cannon. The ammunition load includes rounds with two types of projectiles: armor-piercing incendiary tracer (BZT) and high-explosive fragmentation incendiary (HEF). The mass of the projectiles is 188,5–190 g, the initial speed is 980 m/s. A BZT projectile at a distance of 700 m at an impact angle of 60° ensures penetration of armor 15 mm thick. The tracer's burning time corresponds to a range of 2 m, and the projectile explodes 500–9 seconds after the shot. The following scheme for equipping the tape is recommended: 11 OFZ - 4 BZT.

A two-wheeled chassis with springs is mounted on road wheels. In the firing position, the wheels are raised and tilted to the side, and the gun is mounted on the ground on three support plates. A trained crew is able to transfer the ZU-23 from a traveling position to a combat position in just 30 seconds, and back in 40 seconds.


The installation does not require preliminary preparation of the firing position and is fixed at three points on any relatively flat area. When the installation is transferred from the traveling position to the combat position, its wheels turn up and to the sides, and the “tank” itself rests on the ground with the platform jack plates.


If necessary, it is possible to fire from wheels and even on the move - right when transporting the ZU-23 behind a car, which is extremely important for a short-lived combat encounter.


The weight of the twin 23-mm installation in the stowed position, together with covers and loaded cartridge boxes, is about a ton, and it can be towed by any army vehicle. Maximum speed on the highway is up to 70 km/h.

Service and combat use of ZU-23


After being adopted, the ZU-23 began to replace 37-mm anti-aircraft guns in the air defense of the Ground Forces, which began to be taken out for storage and actively transferred to friendly countries. But by that time, a significant part of the anti-aircraft artillery regiments were already armed with the S-60 system, which, including the AZP-57 artillery machine guns and a gun guidance radar, provided a greater firing range and height reach and a higher probability of hitting the target.

Also, 23-mm installations have replaced 14,5-mm quad and coaxial machine gun installations in battalion-level anti-aircraft units. However, until the collapse of the USSR, the 14,5-mm anti-aircraft guns ZPU-2, ZU-2 and ZPU-4 remained in the army and were used mainly to cover radar and air defense systems. In the 1970s, the spread of the ZU-23 was largely restrained by the massive saturation of troops with MANPADS, self-propelled artillery systems ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" and short-range air defense systems "Strela-1".

In the 1980s, lightweight 23-mm towed installations found their niche in the anti-aircraft units of the Airborne Forces, the Marine Corps and Coastal Defense. A certain number of ZU-23s were also available in the Ground Forces and the Air Defense Forces of the USSR.

ZU-23 units were exported to more than 30 countries, licensed production was established in Poland and Bulgaria. The production of ammunition was carried out in Bulgaria, Egypt, India, Iran, Israel, Poland, France, Finland, Switzerland and South Africa.


The 23-mm "spark" has a wide history of combat use. She participated in many conflicts, firing at both air and ground targets.


During the Afghan war, the ZU-23 was actively used by the Soviet “limited contingent” as a means of reinforcing fire at checkpoints and providing cover for convoys, mounted on trucks: GAZ-66, ZIL-131, Ural-4320 or KamAZ.


Rapid-firing anti-aircraft guns mounted on trucks had the ability to fire on mountain slopes at high elevation angles and were significantly superior in range and power to light infantry guns. weapon.


The ZU-23 proved to be an effective means of repelling attacks on convoys in mountainous terrain. In addition to trucks, 23-mm installations were installed on a variety of chassis, both tracked and wheeled.


Subsequently, various self-propelled guns with ZU-23 were very actively used during the “counter-terrorist operation” in the North Caucasus and in August 2008 in combat operations in South Ossetia and Georgia.

In a number of units, due to the exhaustion of the service life of the ZSU-23-4 Shilka anti-aircraft self-propelled guns, they were temporarily replaced by 23-mm installations based on the MT-LB, further increasing the number of MANPADS in the anti-aircraft missile and artillery battery.


A significant disadvantage of such self-propelled guns is the high vulnerability of openly located crews. In this regard, homemade armored shields were sometimes mounted on anti-aircraft installations.

The successful experience of combat use in the Airborne Forces of the BTR-D armored personnel carrier with the ZU-23 installed on it became the reason for the creation of a factory version of the anti-aircraft self-propelled gun, which received the designation BMD-ZD “Skrezhet”.


On this anti-aircraft self-propelled gun, the two-man crew is protected by light anti-fragmentation armor. To increase the effectiveness of air attack fire, the sighting equipment included optoelectronic equipment with a laser rangefinder and a television channel, a digital ballistic computer, an automatic target tracking machine, a new collimator sight, and electromechanical guidance drives.

This allows you to increase the probability of destruction and ensure 24-hour and all-weather use against low-flying targets. An option for upgrading sighting equipment, which did not take root on towed installations, turned out to be in demand in airborne self-propelled guns, which can be dropped on a parachute platform. However, only a few of these ZSUs were released.

As of 2020, the Russian armed forces operated about 300 ZU-23s, mostly installed on various equipment. Even up to a thousand 23-mm towed anti-aircraft guns were available at storage bases.


Several years ago I had the opportunity to observe 23-mm mounts mounted on KamAZ-4310 trucks that accompanied the convoy of the 12th Main Directorate of the Russian Defense Ministry. Towed ZU-23s were also seen in September 2021 during military exercises on Kunashir Island.

Disadvantages of ZU-23


At the time of adoption, the ZU-23 installations were considered as an inexpensive and flexible “last line” air defense system, which was an addition to other, more effective anti-aircraft systems. Already in the 1970s, it became clear that the “zushka” (like all anti-aircraft artillery without radar guidance) was rapidly losing its significance, since it was not capable of effectively protecting troops and important stationary objects from air strikes, which was associated with several innate disadvantages of the ZU-23.

In its basic configuration, the installation, which has a fairly high rate of fire, does not provide acceptable effectiveness against air targets. Thus, the probability of hitting an aircraft flying at a speed of 300 m/s when passing through the entire firing zone is only 0,02.

A competent reader can rightly conclude that this is a very high speed for an aircraft operating at low altitude. Which, of course, is fair, but it is worth remembering that since the 1960s, one of the most effective methods of overcoming air defense lines has been low-altitude throws at speeds close to sound. As the flight speed decreases and the time spent in the firing zone increases, the probability of a hit increases, but still remains unacceptably low.

This is primarily due to the fact that the ZU-23 has a relatively simple sight, and the crew does not have the ability to accurately determine the target parameters. The installation is guided by a ZAP-23 anti-aircraft sight. You can enter the current range of up to 3 m and speed of up to 000 m/s into the sight, which theoretically allows you to solve the problem of calculating the lead (the point at which the projectile hits the target) when firing at an airborne enemy at a distance of up to 300 m.

The range to the target is determined by eye or using a stereo rangefinder. The remaining data is determined visually. Target elevation angles and azimuths are entered directly by sighting. It is clear that with such a determination of shooting parameters, the accumulated error will be too large, and this will inevitably negatively affect accuracy.

One of the most promising and obvious areas of modernization of the ZU-23 is the use of instruments that make it possible to accurately determine the range, speed and directional parameters of a target, as well as the introduction of sights that make it possible to effectively detect and fire at aircraft in any lighting conditions.

Also acute is the issue of the effectiveness of existing 23-mm ammunition and their compliance with modern requirements. It is worth recognizing that the choice of a 23-mm cartridge for the VYa air cannon, made more than 60 years ago, was not optimal.


Cartridges 23x152 mm for ZU-23: OFZ and BZT

The 23x152 mm cartridge made it possible to make a relatively simple, light and compact installation, with a mass close to 14,5 mm sparks (the weight of a combat-ready ZPU-2 reaches 1 kg), but it imposed serious restrictions on the firing range and destructive effect of the projectile.

Until the end of the 1980s, the USSR mass-produced an anti-aircraft cartridge, originally adopted for the 25-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun of the 1940 model (72-K). In the post-war period, naval assault rifles with belt feeding 2M-3 and 2M-3M were created for it, which in terms of effective range exceeded the ZU-23 by about 30% and have not been removed from service to this day. An armor-piercing tracer 25-mm projectile weighing 0,288 g has an initial speed of 900 m/s and at a distance of 1 m at an impact angle of 000°, it penetrates 60 mm of armor.

This is exactly the path they took in China. In the mid-1980s, the PLA entered service with the 23-mm Type 85 anti-aircraft gun, which was an unlicensed copy of the ZU-23. But after experimental military operation of Type 85 installations, the Chinese military demanded the use of more powerful 25x184 mm ammunition from the Oerlikon KVV automatic cannon, which made it possible to increase the firing range and the power of action on the target. An armor-piercing incendiary 25-mm projectile weighing 230 g contains 20 g of explosive-incendiary composition and, leaving the barrel at a speed of 1 m/s at a normal distance of 160 m, is capable of penetrating 1-mm armor.


25-mm anti-aircraft artillery mount Type 87

At the end of the 1980s, the Chinese army adopted the 25-mm Type 87 installation, created on the basis of the 23-mm Type 85 and differing from it in the caliber of the barrels, a more massive machine and recoil devices. The weight of the installation was 1 kg.

Due to the increase in the size and weight of the shot, the capacity of box magazines with tape was reduced from 50 to 40 rounds. The total rate of fire decreased to 1 rounds/min. Thanks to an increase in the range against air targets to 600 m and an increase in the power of the projectile, the effectiveness of the Type 3 compared to the ZU-200 as a whole increased significantly.

Even within the Warsaw Pact, some countries chose to use their own longer-range 30mm twin towed and self-propelled anti-aircraft guns. Czechoslovakia and Romania followed this path.

After the appearance in NATO countries of combat helicopters and aircraft armed with guided missiles with a maximum firing range, significantly higher than the effective fire range of the towed ZU-23 and self-propelled ZSU-23-4 "Shilka", the USSR came to the conclusion that it was necessary to create a 30-mm air defense missile system "Tunguska", which entered service in the early 1980s.

In the late 1980s, the A.E. Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau began designing the Sosna anti-aircraft gun system with a 2A38M double-barreled anti-aircraft gun with a rate of fire of up to 2 rounds/min. The ammunition load was 400 rounds. Firing range – 300 m, height reach – 4 m.


According to the original design, the artillery unit was to be placed on a towed four-wheeled cart. The curb weight of the ZAK was supposed to be 6 kg.

The design of the firing module provided for the possibility of aiming weapons at the target in azimuth in a circle, and in elevation: from –5° to +85°, and protecting the operator from bullets and shrapnel. Target detection and installation guidance were supposed to be carried out using an automatic optoelectronic module combined with a laser range finder and a computer complex, with the possibility of external target designation. Power supply was provided by an autonomous generator with an internal combustion engine or via cable from an external source.

As an option, the towed anti-aircraft gun could be retrofitted with Igla MANPADS or advanced laser-beam-guided missiles. Sketches and models of the towed Sosna ZAK were repeatedly demonstrated at international arms exhibitions, but there was never a customer ready to take on the financing to implement the installation in metal.

Modernization options and future prospects for ZU-23


Before we begin the story about the future prospects of the ZU-23, we will consider foreign options for modernizing the Zushka. Perhaps Poland has advanced the furthest in this direction.

Polish 23-mm anti-aircraft guns have been repeatedly upgraded, there are several variants in service, differing mainly in sights and the presence or absence of missile launchers.

In 2002, production began of the ZUR-23-2KG Jodek-G artillery and missile towed installations, equipped with a combined (day/night) passive optoelectronic sight Prexer CKE-2 and two transport and launch containers for Grom close-range missiles (Polish version of the Igla MANPADS ).


Thanks to the introduction of anti-aircraft missiles into the installation, the firing range at air targets exceeded 5 m and it became possible to destroy air targets flying at speeds of up to 000 m/s. According to Polish experts, the efficiency of the ZUR-500-23KG Jodek-G compared to the original ZU-2 has increased by more than 23 times. The sighting system also ensures operation at night.

In 2007, an installation with an improved all-day sight combined with a laser rangefinder was tested, and sub-caliber armor-piercing incendiary and armor-piercing incendiary tracer shells with an increased muzzle velocity appeared in the ammunition load, due to which the effective firing range increased by about 20%. In 2015, the search and aiming thermal imager CKE-1T was introduced into the installation.

The Pilica artillery and missile system (PSR-A) is designed to protect air bases. The actions of the anti-aircraft battery are controlled by a mobile command post with a computerized control system. Target designation comes from a mobile three-coordinate radar station IAI ELM-2106NG. Six ZUR-23-2SP Jodek combined artillery-missile launchers with Piorun (Grom-M) missiles are equipped with electromechanical drives with the possibility of automated remote guidance without the participation of crews.

The artillery and missile launchers are equipped with a combined GOS-1 surveillance and sighting system with a television camera, a thermal imager, and a laser range finder and can be used individually.


Jelcz 442.32 trucks with a fast loading and unloading device are used for the transportation of anti-aircraft installations and calculation. If necessary, fire can be fired from the body.

At the end of the 1990s, the Finns radically modernized part of their ZU-23, which in the country of Suomi were designated 23 Itk 61. According to the Military Balance, out of 400 23 Itk 61, 23 units were brought to the level of 95 ItK 50.


The upgraded 23 ItK 95 received a ballistic processor, a thermal imager and a laser rangefinder. This allowed the efficiency to more than double.

In the 23st century, modernized versions of the ZU-23 appeared in the post-Soviet space. For example, in Belarus, the design bureau of the Podolsk Electromechanical Plant created the ZU-30/1M3-23 and ZU-30/1M4-XNUMX.


Both modifications are equipped with electric drives that facilitate target guidance and tracking, 23-hour optoelectronic systems, as well as compact gasoline generators. The ZU-30/1M3-XNUMX installation is additionally armed with two Igla missiles.

Our production of the ZU-23 was discontinued in the mid-1980s. However, in Russia, spare parts and barrels are still produced for existing installations. Several modernized variants have also been created in the recent past, the most famous being the ZU-23M1.


This installation is additionally armed with Igla missiles. Thanks to the introduction of a thermal imaging system for searching and tracking a target, as well as a laser rangefinder, it is possible to operate effectively in conditions of poor visibility and at night. External automated target designation is possible. The introduction of electromechanical guidance drives and a digital ballistic computer makes it possible to significantly increase the efficiency of cannon firing.

Another modernization option is the recently introduced and already widely advertised ZU-23AE installation.


It is stated that the basis for increasing the combat effectiveness of the ZU-23AE is to equip the old Zushkas with modern means of detecting and tracking targets, remote control and supposedly even ammunition with programmable detonation.

The upgraded ZU-23AE received electric drives, which allows for remote centralized control (guidance in manual mode is also retained). An anti-aircraft battery, united by a single control system, can have three installations, one of which is the master, and the other two are slaves.

According to the developers, the installations can be located at a distance of 100 meters from each other. The main highlight is the ability to concentrate accurate fire from several installations on one target, which should greatly increase the probability of defeat. But, apparently, things have not yet come to the practical use of the ZU-23AE.

Historically, the Russian Army, unlike the armed forces of most other states, was very well stocked with self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery, missile and artillery systems, MANPADS, as well as mobile short-, medium- and long-range air defense systems. Given the presence of a large number of relatively modern and fairly effective air defense systems, ZU-23 installations were mainly considered as a cheap universal auxiliary weapon, which, in addition to fighting an air enemy, could provide fire support to ground units. For commanders of various levels, the main advantage of the “zushka” was its simplicity, high maintainability and the ability to quickly prepare calculations.


After the end of the Vietnam War, our anti-aircraft gunners no longer had the opportunity to fire at real air targets. Taking into account the fact that simple as crowbar artillery mounts were used in “anti-terrorist operations” exclusively for firing at ground enemies, the leadership of the RF Ministry of Defense did not equip them with expensive optoelectronic sights, laser rangefinders, centralized fire control systems, electromechanical drives, gasoline power generators and short-range missiles. in a hurry.

As a result, single copies of the modernized ZU-23 “shone” at various exhibitions and PR campaigns, but in reality there were none in the troops. When suddenly, during the Northern Military District, it completely unexpectedly became clear that the enemy also has combat aviation and that various Drones, conversations began about the need to urgently increase the combat effectiveness of the available Zushkas.

But no matter how unpleasant it may sound, there is no particular point in investing serious funds and effort in the radical modernization of fairly outdated and long-out-of-production anti-aircraft guns. In a good way, this should have been started 20 years ago.

Most of the operational 23-mm twin tanks are now fighting on the front line or protecting various objects from air strikes, and for modernization they will have to be taken to the rear. To be fair, it should be admitted that even in its original form, being in normal technical condition, with barrels not shot to the point of a shotgun, with a well-prepared crew and a competent commander, the ZU-23 can be quite effective against UAVs.


Combat experience shows that during daylight hours and in conditions of good visibility, an aircraft-type drone with a length of about 2 m and a wingspan of up to 3 m, flying at a speed of about 100–120 km/h, at a distance and altitude corresponding to half of the maximum range firing, after shooting in short bursts with tracers, it is destroyed with a probability of 0,15–0,2. In the case when several anti-aircraft guns concentrate fire on one enemy UAV, it is almost always shot down.

As for air-blasted shells, so beloved by many visitors to Voennoye Obozreniye, this is absolutely futile for the ZU-23. As mentioned above, to introduce programmable fuses, it will be necessary to temporarily remove existing anti-aircraft installations from the active army and equip them with modern sights, laser or radar rangefinders, fire control systems and projectile programmers. Naturally, it will still be necessary to organize mass production of new 23-mm ammunition and train crews. In the current situation, it is almost impossible to do this.

As for ammunition, no one in the world makes remotely detonated programmable artillery rounds in a caliber smaller than 30 mm. The most common calibers of automatic guns capable of firing such projectiles are: 35 mm, 40 mm and 57 mm.

When 30-mm and 35-mm shells are detonated, the target is hit not by hull fragments, as is commonly believed, but by ready-made destructive elements thrown forward. During full-scale experiments, it was established that during explosive fragmentation of the hull, a cloud of light fragments with a relatively low expansion speed does not ensure the required damage to the target and an acceptable probability of defeat.


Components of the 30-mm German PMC308 projectile for the MK30-2/ABM gun

The 30-mm PMC308 projectile, developed by Rheinmetall, contains 162 striking elements, which are stacked in 6 rows of 27 elements in each row. Projectile length - 173 mm, projectile weight - 360 g, weight of finished submunitions - 201 g.

It follows from this that the weight of the finished destructive elements in the 30-mm PMC308 projectile is greater than the weight of the entire 23-mm high-explosive incendiary projectile (190 g). The 23-mm OFZ for the ZU-23 has a very modest internal volume and is loaded with 18,5 g of explosives.

The Russian military-industrial complex is capable of producing unique “unparalleled” products, but taking into account the state of the domestic industry producing electronic components, there is great doubt about its ability to create reliable fuses in significant volumes, which will be smaller in size than a similar Rheinmetall product.

From the above it follows that it is hardly realistic to make a mass-produced 23-mm projectile with remote air detonation that satisfies the “cost-effectiveness” criterion in the near future, and the most optimal is a “small modernization” of the ZU-23 part with equipping them with XNUMX-hour sighting and search systems systems and modern rangefinders.
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  1. +7
    April 21 2024 05: 56
    Modernization of the ZU-23/2 is necessary “yesterday.” And in several directions and make it multi-variant, for use both by an individual crew and in a group, but from a single command center
    1. 0
      April 22 2024 08: 10
      ZU-23 in its current form, if thermal imaging sights were installed on them, could significantly strengthen the entrances to the bays of our bases from BECs.
      But they need modernization and, above all, they need a remotely controlled version that will secure the installation crew and improve the crew’s working conditions.
      1. +2
        April 23 2024 00: 00
        How cheap will the remote-controlled version with thermal imaging and other things be? Otherwise, maybe a couple of these modernized zushkas will cost the same as a new derivation
        1. 0
          April 23 2024 05: 17
          If all the entrances to the bays were covered with booms and at these entrances there were positions of several chargers with thermal imagers, then several ships would remain in service.
          Upgrading the memory to a remotely controlled version with a thermal imager will cost less than the death of an experienced crew.
  2. +21
    April 21 2024 06: 15
    A very detailed review and analysis of alternatives - which are not expected in the Russian Army with an increased probability of hitting aircraft in the daytime.

    5++ to the author - a high bar, thank you!
    1. +1
      April 21 2024 13: 51
      Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
      destruction of aircraft in daytime day
      Why only during the day? Are all the ancient floodlights of the APM-90 type completely rusted and sent for disposal? Surely they are lying around in warehouses...
      https://uazbuka.ru/models/uaz-app.html
      https://sovetarmy.forum2x2.ru/t35-topic
      1. +3
        April 21 2024 23: 36
        You turn on such a flashlight and in a minute the fpivisch will destroy it
        1. 0
          April 21 2024 23: 48
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          You turn on such a flashlight and in a minute the fpivisch will destroy it
          Are you out of your mind? What fpv are hundreds of kilometers from the LBS? Have you heard about at least one fpv that fell, for example, at a refinery? - and you won’t hear, the destiny of these toys is 25 km, just like art. I didn’t think that it would occur to anyone to shoot down fpv with a 23mm charger. We are talking about the deep rear, where UAVs with a wingspan of 3-6 meters fly.
          1. -2
            April 22 2024 00: 20
            And to assemble it and launch it on our territory... How many scoundrels are capable of this, who burn cabinets and so on, traitors, spies and saboteurs should not be discounted
            1. +1
              April 22 2024 00: 39
              Quote: Andrey VOV
              And to assemble it and launch it on our territory.. How many scoundrels are capable of this?
              So far, unfortunately, not a single such scoundrel has been discovered, because their brains, although minimal, are there. The entire area is cordoned off (the circle is only a few kilometers without a repeater) and the population is filtered (similar to the traffic police “interception” plan). You won’t have time to leave, and therefore the ears can easily be sewn to a completely different part of the body, for example the butt. That's why there are no takers.
              Once again: the ZU-23 will not help against fpv drones, they are small and can reach speeds of up to 140 km/h low above the ground (by the time you see it it will be too late, it will already be 15 meters away). There are other methods against them, but they don’t shoot sparrows with cannons. IMHO: I would only shoot at fpv drones with a pump-action gun, but for everything else there should be trench electronic warfare and fpv interceptors.
              https://t.me/s/setkomet
          2. +1
            April 23 2024 15: 29
            Quote: VPK-65
            the destiny of these toys is 25 km, as well as art.

            Apparently, even less - rather, the range is at the level of an anti-tank system, and everything beyond that is through a repeater.
            1. +1
              April 23 2024 22: 26
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              rather, the range is at the ATGM level, and everything further is through a repeater.
              Without it, no more than 5 km (depending on the terrain). And LBS repeaters for them are on large aircraft-type UAVs (max. height).
              There is no need to be afraid of fpv toys away from LBS ("Andrey VOV" is inadequate) who does not understand that a toy does not kill anyone, it is only a means of delivering explosives. Does he have an RPG-7 at home? - and it won’t, they don’t sell grenades on Aliexpress. If there is an inadequate person who tries to make an IED himself (for the first time in his life), then with a 70% probability he will go to Bendery (after being poisoned or blown up). The remaining 30% will receive an oversized IED that the fpv toy simply cannot lift. There are fpv forums and their inhabitants are extremely unhappy that their favorite toy was turned into a murder weapon by putting military ammunition on it. And without a BC, a light fpv will not damage the glass of the office; at most, the blade can injure the finger of an unlucky pilot.
  3. -7
    April 21 2024 06: 18
    23 mm should be removed a long time ago. On Pantsiri and Terminators, a ship-mounted 6-barrel 30 mm machine gun is mounted above. Water cooling (antifreeze). There is room there for cooling and BC to do more. And put 14,5 mm on the chassis of the zushka - although it will most likely blow it apart.
  4. +3
    April 21 2024 06: 30
    Here was a 25 mm marine installation. This means there was also the production of ammunition. What kind of gun is this? Little is known about her. And the Pacific Fleet marines pulled her out into the light and installed the MTLB.
    1. +9
      April 21 2024 06: 49
      Here was a 25 mm marine installation. This means there was also the production of ammunition. What kind of gun is this? Little is known about her. And the Pacific Fleet marines pulled her out into the light and installed the MTLB.

      In Soviet times, minesweepers, torpedo boats and paratrooper ships were widely armed with 25-mm twin mounts. They are well described in the public literature.
      As for the ZU-23 itself, the author is absolutely right; it will not be possible to place a significant amount of explosives in a 23-mm projectile along with a radar or programmable fuse.
  5. +2
    April 21 2024 06: 36
    In general, it is reasonable to use the ZU-23 as a super-heavy machine gun, and not as an air defense weapon, although at the very least it can protect against some UAVs.
  6. +15
    April 21 2024 07: 33
    Yes, I agree with the author. We have not prepared for war for more than 20 years. In this class of weapons. This is the bitter truth of life. The experience in Syria was not beneficial. The danger of UAVs was accepted as insignificant reconnaissance single samples not directly dangerous to combat units on the battlefield. Therefore, we do not know how to predict the danger of new types of enemy weapons. The result is losses from the Drones, we don’t reach the line of attack or defense. Marvelous. Again in the role of catching up. But from the screens the zombie-boxes are reassured that “Russian military personnel are provided with everything they need.” I wonder if they are also provided with drones? Reporters from the front line are increasingly talking about the numerical superiority of enemy UAVs. And this explains the slow liberation from Nazism of Ukraine. Power, where is “Derevation”, where are the balloons raised around important energy facilities, where are the airborne object detection stations raised to a height? The enemy is waging a full-fledged war against us, using everything that can harm us. And we arm soldiers with shotguns against UAVs. We throw plastic bottles and fight back with sticks. And we present this as the ingenuity of a Russian soldier. Oh yes. We are a nuclear power. By definition, we cannot lose.
    1. -5
      April 21 2024 07: 52
      Oh yes. We are a nuclear power. By definition, we cannot lose.

      Because they will force you to use it.
      Everything is moving towards this, in quiet steps.
      And I think the target of defeat will be England.
      Only a blind person does not see that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are beginning to approach the disabling of elements of the nuclear triad.
      In my opinion, it’s better to groan sooner rather than later, as in 1941: Where was Stalin looking?
  7. +1
    April 21 2024 08: 19
    Yes, the anti-aircraft gun is outdated, but the remnants can still be used quite successfully, this is an opportunity to develop the thoughts and creativity of craftsmen on the front line, in the field mestres
  8. BAI
    +2
    April 21 2024 09: 05
    In Donbass, every convoy has a car with this twin
  9. +4
    April 21 2024 09: 20
    Off topic, but I have a funny memory of my youth and demobilization associated with the ZU-23/2. There were less than 100 days left before his dear one, and we were thrown into the selection by parachute, we went with a friend, didn’t bother anyone, and suddenly, bam, what kind of garbage is this at the end of the strip? It’s interesting, we examined it, I liked it, I sat down, it’s beautiful, let’s fix it, the lane is common, so that for civilians, “Beat Vasya, and I’ll cover you,” one of the civilians knocked in the right place and Vasya and I flew in for 7 days personally from division commander Dembilization was under threat, thanks to my regiment commander, MIG-25 sniper pilot Colonel Gubanov, he drove us home to the farm, and this is a very convenient thing
    1. +5
      April 21 2024 09: 24
      Quote: Sofievka
      Off topic, but I have a funny memory of my youth and demobilization associated with the ZU-23/2. There were less than 100 days left before his dear one, and we were thrown into the selection by parachute, we went with a friend, didn’t bother anyone, and suddenly, bam, what kind of garbage is this at the end of the strip? It’s interesting, we looked it over, I liked it, I sat down, it’s beautiful, let’s fix it up, the lane is common, so for civilians,

      Was there a loaded Zushka standing unattended at the airfield?
      1. +3
        April 21 2024 11: 01
        1980, of course not, apparently there were some kind of exercises, they dragged her there, well, they forgot, but in the MIG regiment there were no carbines for everyone, when repelling the attack they hired soldiers with a machine gun from the neighbors, I think 40 liters of Massandra were spent
        1. +4
          April 21 2024 12: 09
          Quote: Sofievka
          1980, of course not, apparently there were some kind of exercises, they dragged her there, well, they forgot, but in the MIG regiment there were no carbines for everyone, when repelling the attack they hired soldiers with a machine gun from the neighbors, I think 40 liters of Massandra were spent


          In any case, in order to competently maintain and fire from the ZU-23, a trained crew is needed. The aviation regiment probably did not have properly trained people.

          As for the “exercises” on an unloaded ZU-23, which was also on wheels, what’s the crime? Well, you spun around on it a little, raised and lowered the trunks, and what next? Who is harmed or threatened by this? I have observed this many times; the troops were calm about such “exercises” of conscripts on unloaded installations.
          1. +7
            April 21 2024 12: 40
            Quote: Bongo
            As for the “exercises” on an unloaded ZU-23, which was also on wheels, what’s the crime?
            "Children, move away from the tank, you will break it!" the teacher told us on a tour of the museum (the tank is real, not a model). I think it was the same here.
    2. Eug
      0
      April 27 2024 17: 32
      By any chance, Gubanov's name was Viktor Kirovich?
      1. 0
        3 May 2024 08: 45
        I don’t remember, there is a video “Farewell to the Banner” 933iap, it’s definitely the Commander speaking after the last MIG flight over Kaydaki
        1. Eug
          +1
          3 May 2024 20: 41
          Yes, Leonid Grigorievich Semenov flew, and then Viktor Kirovich Gubanov spoke...
          1. 0
            6 May 2024 17: 18
            Semyonov, my commander, 3, squadron, but it was not he who flew, some of ours sat on the bridge at one time, they lie, but in front of me he caught up with his wife to wave her wing, it was, pilots, what can you take from them, Great Airplane MIG-25PDS
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 20: 01
              Pod-k Semyonov crashed while ferrying the spark, but suddenly he’s alive, I don’t know, I’ll drink to the squadron commander
  10. +7
    April 21 2024 10: 23
    hi
    As always, great article!
    but taking into account the state of the domestic industry producing electronic components, there is great doubt about its ability to create reliable fuses in significant volumes, which will be smaller in size than a similar Rheinmetall product.
    From the above it follows that it is hardly realistic to make a mass-produced 23-mm projectile with remote air detonation that satisfies the “cost-effectiveness” criterion in the near future, and the most optimal is a “small modernization” of the ZU-23 part with equipping them with XNUMX-hour sighting and search systems systems and modern rangefinders.

    Absolutely agree!
    It is not very clear how many more reserves will be enough to operate the ZU23, but a “small modernization” should not take much time and will allow solving problems “here and now.”
    And there is no need to “shove the unshoveable”, that is, AHEAD in 23 mm.

    But even “small modernization” will not solve the question “what will we exploit tomorrow”?
    IMHO, of course, but the SVO clearly showed that combat vehicles must have weapons capable of performing the functions of the “last line of defense” against air attack.
    And here you need an adequate OMS and AHEAD, without options.

    From interviews with our manufacturers it follows that the “AHEAD for 30 mm and 57 mm” problem has probably been solved: “..one of Rostec’s enterprises has developed an automated gun control system that programs ammunition to explode at the optimal point for hitting the enemy. Are the holding companies developing ammunition with programmable detonation? How effective are such munitions in the fight against drones? Are there any combat tests?
    – This is a very promising direction, and, of course, such work is underway. For example, a 30-mm shot with a high-explosive fragmentation projectile with a remotely controlled fuse was created. A complex for remote control of detonation time has been developed for combat vehicles, providing commanded detonation of a projectile at the desired point in the flight path. Last year, it successfully passed state tests as part of a BMPT (tank support combat vehicle - TASS note), they confirmed the correctness of engineering calculations. In the future, such a complex is planned to be placed not only in BMPTs, but also in the combat modules of BTR-82A, BMP-3M, etc. This will significantly increase the effectiveness of small-caliber cannon weapons.
    In addition, our designers are creating means to combat small-sized drones and enemy loitering munitions, including attack FPV drones. On our own initiative, we quickly developed a small-caliber shot with a multi-element projectile and a remote-controlled fuse. The design of this product contains striking elements, which, after the command detonation of a projectile, create a field of striking elements directed towards the UAV.
    Our engineers are now actively working on several options for expanding air defense capabilities in the fight against drones. All options are fully developed from a constructive and technical point of view, that is, they are practically ready and do not require time for modification. In particular, the use of 57-mm or 30-mm artillery shrapnel rounds with controlled remote detonation based on the Derivation-Air Defense and Typhoon-VDV complexes is being considered.
    ."https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4815896.html

    But here the question arises that 30 mm may no longer be enough to fight the same Bradley (this issue has already moved, so to speak, into the practical plane) and is it not necessary to switch to larger calibers, both in MZA and for BMP/armored personnel carrier?

    PS.
    Another modernization option is the recently introduced and already widely advertised ZU-23AE installation
    IMHO, this is just the best option, with an “independent OLS”.
    1. +2
      April 21 2024 11: 39
      But here the question arises that 30 mm may no longer be enough to fight the same Bradley

      I’m not entering into an argument, but I’ll share my impression of the quote I read:
      “The 5,45 BPP cartridge bullet provides penetration of 5-mm steel armor plate at a range of up to 550 m, and 10-mm armor plate and the chest section of a 6B23 body armor vest at a range of up to 100 m.”

      A 5,45 mm BPP bullet weighs 4,1 grams; an armor-piercing projectile of 30 mm caliber weighs 400 grams! maybe just do some magic with the ammunition... I heard about tungsten sub-caliber "crowbars" in the 30-mm caliber; BMPTs would be very useful for ammunition, and ATGMs would not be needed on the Bradley. And cheaper.
      1. +4
        April 21 2024 12: 33
        A very difficult question, IMHO.
        In 30 mm you can make a tungsten one, you can also make a uranium “crowbar”. The question of the effectiveness of such a projectile and the possibility of mass effective 30mm AHEAD...
    2. +1
      April 21 2024 11: 52
      Quote: Wildcat
      developed an automated gun control system that programs ammunition to explode at the optimal point for hitting the enemy.
      How is this different from artillerymen putting up their pipes? After all, the detonation of shrapnel shells at the required distance was realized God knows when.
      1. +8
        April 21 2024 12: 03
        Quote: bk0010
        How is this different from artillerymen putting up their pipes? After all, the detonation of shrapnel shells at the required distance was realized God knows when.

        Have you ever thought about what time values ​​and permissible errors are involved in the tubes of anti-personnel shrapnel shells and in programmable fuses designed to destroy air targets?
        1. +1
          April 21 2024 12: 11
          Quote: Bongo

          Have you ever thought about what time values ​​and permissible errors are involved in the tubes of anti-personnel shrapnel shells and in programmable fuses designed to destroy air targets?
          Wow! This is why I propose reviving 76-100 mm anti-aircraft artillery to combat drones: these are cheaper (oddly enough) shells compared to shells with remote detonation, and a higher probability of destruction (the fragment will not hit, so the shock wave will dismantle ) and several times larger coverage area. The disadvantages are the significantly greater mass of the gun and a greater risk for the covered infantry due to the increased power of the ammunition (but I don’t think this is worse than the impact of an unshot down drone).
          1. +5
            April 21 2024 12: 54
            ... revive 76-100 mm anti-aircraft artillery to combat drones

            Something similar has already been done, in the “76mm OTO Melara on a tank” version.

            https://youtu.be/61YnsQ1v0mw

            It’s possible that if it’s not possible to “shove something that can’t be shoved into the form of AHEAD” into 57 mm, then there will be a transition to 76 mm AHEAD. But this solution has many disadvantages.
      2. +5
        April 21 2024 12: 35
        IMHO, it's different for everyone

        https://youtu.be/bdwjcayPuag
        1. +3
          April 21 2024 12: 38
          So, I’m not asking about the device and the price, but about the result. If there is a radar, then you can install a radio fuse; it was widely used by the states during the Second World War.
          1. +6
            April 21 2024 13: 05
            then you can install a radio fuse
            no one puts it in a caliber smaller than 76 mm, probably impossible.
            “Detonation at a set distance”, IMHO, is a simpler technology.
            1. +3
              April 21 2024 13: 48
              Quote: Wildcat
              no one puts it in a caliber smaller than 76 mm, probably impossible.

              They put 60mm mines in them.
              1. +5
                April 21 2024 14: 38
                They put 60mm mines in them.

                The EPR of the earth's surface and an airborne target are somewhat different, aren't they?
                And the speed of the mine on the approaching branch of the trajectory is different than that of an anti-aircraft projectile. The fuse fires for 0.1 s. For a mine, earlier or later does not matter, but for an anti-aircraft shell it is critical.
            2. +2
              April 21 2024 17: 19
              Quote: Wildcat
              no one puts it in a caliber smaller than 76 mm, probably impossible.
              “Detonation at a set distance”, IMHO, is a simpler technology.
              Well, it's much more complicated. The radio fuse was made during World War II to fight off Japanese kamikazes, and the “Detonation at a set distance” was made quite recently.
      3. +1
        April 24 2024 14: 16
        Quote: bk0010
        How is this different from artillerymen putting up their pipes? After all, the detonation of shrapnel shells at the required distance was realized God knows when.

        There is a serious difference here. "Hooking up" is done before loading. The programmable fuse is “set” at the moment of firing. In the time between loading and firing, the target's trajectory may change. And programming when firing also takes into account the real muzzle velocity of the projectile.
  11. +6
    April 21 2024 10: 48
    ...the acute question is the effectiveness of existing 23-mm ammunition and their compliance with modern requirements. It is worth recognizing that the choice of a 23-mm cartridge for the VYa air cannon, made more than 60 years ago, was not optimal.

    Probably, from the point of view of post-knowledge and consideration of ZU23 separately and now, this conclusion is correct.

    But, IMHO, from the point of view of the USSR military, the choice of the 23 mm cartridge for the MZA was correct
    Historically, the Russian Army, unlike the armed forces of most other states, was very well stocked with self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery, missile and artillery systems, MANPADS, as well as mobile short-, medium- and long-range air defense systems. Given the presence of a large number of relatively modern and fairly effective air defense systems, ZU-23 installations were mainly considered as a cheap universal auxiliary tool

    The MZA was considered as an air defense weapon of the “last line of defense” at those altitudes and ranges where other air defense weapons (missiles) were no longer effective. In such conditions, the minimum caliber won (for example, the history of Shilka and Yenisei).
    The same conclusions were reached in the USA: “Sidewiner on a tractor” and “Vulcan on the M113”.
    By the way, no one has canceled the desirability of a single caliber for the MZA - Shilka and ZU23.

    This, of course, arises feel который feel year feel next feel question feel “Which is more effective: Centurion’s “direct hit” or AHEDAD Mantis?”
    But no one writes an article on this topic feel , but the question is already “overripe”, so to speak...
    request
    1. 0
      April 23 2024 00: 15
      Quote: Wildcat
      consideration of ZU23 separately and now

      It seems that they decided to move away from zushka back in Vietnam, when cobras and tows learned to destroy them (and shilkas) from a safe distance. And they began to make Tunguska. Well, there are a lot of zushkas, a lot of cartridges too, the toad is strangling something compact like this...
      1. +1
        April 23 2024 01: 13
        Cobras and Shilkas did not intersect in Vietnam. No.
        1. 0
          April 26 2024 15: 58
          Quote: Tucan
          Cobras and Shilkas did not intersect in Vietnam.

          Who knows, but it’s a fact that “Cobras” and “Shilkas” were there. "Shilkas" took part in the Vietnam War as part of the air defense of North Vietnam (in the last years of the war)
          1. 0
            April 26 2024 16: 37
            Yeah, but as you probably know, Cobras didn’t fly over North Vietnam.
            1. 0
              April 26 2024 17: 07
              Quote: Tucan
              Cobras did not fly over North Vietnam.

              For this reason, the North Vietnamese army not only came to the south to visit the Cobras, but also stayed there...
              1. 0
                April 27 2024 00: 56
                Cobras were only in the American army; they were not transferred to South Vietnam. By the time the Shilkas appeared in Vietnam, American ground units had already been evacuated. So that they physically could not intersect there. The first meeting between Shilok and Cobra took place in Lebanon in the early 1980s.
    2. +1
      April 23 2024 21: 24
      .what is more effective: Centurion’s “direct hit” or AHEDAD Mantis?”

      A strange way to pose the question. What is more effective, shot or bullet? Not to mention, which of these do you have?
      1. +1
        April 23 2024 23: 56
        IMHO, this is a good question.

        And the answers are interesting, for example, if modern technology does not work (AHEAD) even in 57mm, then isn’t it time to take the technology from the 80s of the last century (Phalanx/Centurion) and “cut” C-RAM based on it? Based on domestic 23-30 mm Gatling guns?
        1. 0
          April 24 2024 06: 09
          .isn’t it time to take the technology from the 80s of the last century (Phalanx/Centurion) and “cut” C-RAM based on it? Based on domestic 23-30 mm Gatling guns?

          Saw, Shura, saw.
          1. +3
            April 24 2024 11: 27
            What a "saw" - I'm just waiting for Bongo to write an article about "Centurion and Mantis".
            1. +3
              April 24 2024 12: 42
              Quote: Wildcat
              What a "saw" - I'm just waiting for Bongo to write an article about "Centurion and Mantis".

              Andrey, who besides you and a couple of other adequate readers would be interested in this?
              There was already something about “Centurion”, and you even commented on this article.
              https://topwar.ru/154864-zenitnaja-artillerijskaja-ustanovka-centurion-c-ram-somnitelnaja-jeffektivnost-na-fone-zajavlenij-ob-uspehah.html
              1. +3
                April 24 2024 12: 46
                hi
                Hello!

                "3 March 2019 10: 07
                New
                hi
                Great article, upvoted! Doesn’t dear Bongo make a small comparison between Centurion and MANTIS? Is it possible to carefully and discreetly look at the feel on the monitor, and if it doesn’t, start the sentences “Compared to the Centurion, MANTIS has the following advantages.... However, its real application does not allow...”, then, I think, he will write himself!
                "
                crying
                "Then maybe a small article "Direct shell hit or shrapnel? Or maybe a missile? Centurion, MANTIS, Iron Dome and RIM-116." Here you can also talk about Tunguska/Pantsir and Derivation-Air Defense..."
                crying crying

                Only now I realized that I have been wanting an article like this since 2019...
                feel
                1. +4
                  April 24 2024 12: 51
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  Only now I realized that I have been wanting an article like this since 2019...

                  I'm not sure I'll take it. I try to write only about what is interesting to me and has not been covered anywhere in RuNet. Currently we are working on a series about Pakistan's air defense system.
                2. 0
                  April 25 2024 10: 08
                  Look, this is nonsense.

                  The task of shorade systems is to deliver energy to some flying crap that will prevent this crap from causing damage. Let's say we consider only the kinetic energy that is delivered by some solid destructive element.

                  This element can fly out directly from the barrel, or it can be formed in flight when the projectile fires. In the first case, it is easier to impart greater energy to it; in the second case, it is easier to create a greater density of destructive elements at a significant distance. What is more important for us is that we need to look at typical targets for us and the desired range from destruction. Shooting down Maviks is one thing, mortar mines are another, supersonic anti-ship missiles are another.

                  Going down a level, we have the same combat module, in which we install either a 12,7 or 40mm grenade launcher with controlled detonation. What's better? First of all, what do we have? Secondly, if there is both, what are we going to do?

                  Now it is believed that, as a rule, 40mm is better than KKP. But it is quite possible that a machine gun is better for us specifically. And in another situation, we ourselves will make a different choice.

                  Returning to the ZU-23. The author writes that it is essentially a super-machine gun. Is it good as an air defense weapon? No. Could he be useful? Any weapon can be useful. Do you need to spend resources on it? And we will spend resources on the ZU-23 instead of what? There can be no theoretical answer here.
  12. -2
    April 21 2024 10: 55
    For the sake of completeness of knowledge, I suggest that the author and everyone interested get acquainted with the information on the issue under consideration in more detail. Here are excerpts and links from public publications.
    “...The scientific production concern Tekhmash, which is part of Rostec, has created an inexpensive projectile control technology that can be equipped with any armored vehicles without significant modifications. It was developed by the Pribor research and production association. It is currently undergoing state tests. The operating principle of the new technology is as follows: a special unit is installed in armored vehicles that programs the time of detonation of a projectile with a laser beam.”
    Source: https://trashbox.ru/topics/119363/v-rossii-sozdali-deshyovuyu-tehnologiyu-upravleniya-snaryadami-dlya-bronetehniki?ysclid=lv979ns
    “...The promising remote-controlled combat module will receive 23-mm projectiles with programmable detonation. This was reported to RT by Konstantin Vorobyov, deputy director of the Moscow branch of the Kizlyar Electromechanical Plant (KEMZ). The work will be completed in early 2024.”
    Source: https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/1197751-boevoi-modul-zu-23-podryv-bpla?ysclid=lv97mk69968401690
    1. +6
      April 21 2024 12: 00
      Quote: bug120560
      For the sake of completeness of knowledge, I suggest that the author and everyone interested get acquainted with the information on the issue under consideration in more detail. Here are excerpts and links from public publications.


      Did you even read the article, or just looked at the pictures? Regarding the internal volume and amount of explosive in a 23-mm projectile, it is stated in an extremely accessible manner. And you will also need to place a programmable fuse there. How do you imagine that?
      Giving links to a propaganda resource is very powerful! good
      1. +5
        April 21 2024 13: 00
        hi
        Giving links to a propaganda resource is very powerful!

        The main thing here is not RT, the key, strong phrase here is “Kizlyar plant”.... you never know what kind of factories there are in Kizlyar Yes and what they produce feel ...
        This was reported to RT by the deputy director of the Moscow branch of the Kizlyar Electromechanical Plant (KEMZ)
        1. +6
          April 21 2024 13: 06
          Hello Andrey!
          Quote: Wildcat
          The main thing here is not RT, the key, strong phrase here is “Kizlyar plant”.... you never know what factories there are in Kizlyar yes and what they produce feel...

          good lol
          In Kizlyar there are still two respected companies “Kizlyar Supreme” and “Kizlyar PP”. They make very good knives!
          1. +5
            April 21 2024 13: 28
            I agree!
            A couple of Kizlyar Yes I even used it myself, but they quickly became friends. And in general... not bad, IMHO, product feel coming from Kizlyar...

            Let's go to the knife on a UAV! (sorry, I can’t resist):

            https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3Sm3xpTMoVU?feature=share

            There is a lot of “all sorts of things” from Rostislav, “widely known in narrow circles”:
            “About the prospects of 23 mm caliber in military air defense” (spoiler - no need for 23 mm AHEAD) https://rostislavddd.livejournal.com/556375.html
        2. -3
          April 22 2024 09: 20
          One of the great thinkers once said: “A smart person, when participating in a dispute, always checks the words of his opponent and, as a rule, learns a lot of new things, while a stupid person prefers to blindly believe that he is right, ultimately ossifying in his ignorance.”
      2. -4
        April 21 2024 18: 03
        I read both the article and the comments quite carefully. And I will repeat especially for you - a remote-controlled unit has already been created on the basis of ZU-23, it was demonstrated last year at the Army 2023 exhibition, a remote detonation projectile is being developed for this unit, God willing, we will soon hear about its adoption into service. I gave links where you can read for those interested - so the Internet can help you.
        1. +3
          April 22 2024 06: 43
          Quote: bug120560
          I gave links where you can read for those interested - so the Internet can help you.

          Links are frankly garbage negative
  13. -3
    April 21 2024 12: 02
    [/b]From the above it follows that it is hardly realistic to make a mass-produced 23-mm projectile with remote air detonation that satisfies the cost-effectiveness criterion in the near future.[/b]
    I agree that such an idea is very doubtful, but.... promises from “serious comrades from the design bureau” to do this and even: “they are already working” have been heard more than once on the Internet! And as for the fact that “programmable” ammunition less than 30 mm does not exist in “nature,” I would like to remind you of the development of such ammunition for grenade launchers and “anti-material guns” (20mm and 25mm grenades) in the USA!
    As for the 23-mm shells, the “range” of 23-mm shells includes the multi-element (shrapnel) projectile 9-A-4256 with 24 shells! Why not use it against UAVs? In principle, it is possible to “bundle” and “programmatically” exploded ammunition on its base in the “master-slave” concept! (That is, the line is “assembled”: 1. “Leading” 23-mm projectile without explosives, but stuffed with electronics + “slave” projectiles with a radio fuse based on 9-A-4256!
    1. +7
      April 21 2024 13: 01
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      And as for the fact that “programmable” ammunition less than 30 mm does not exist in “nature,” I would like to remind you of the development of such ammunition for grenade launchers and “anti-material guns” (20mm and 25mm grenades) in the USA!

      So-so reminder!
      Vladimir, let's compare the loads experienced when fired by a 23-mm projectile and not serial small-caliber grenades, their load factor, initial speed and wall thickness.
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      As for the 23-mm shells, the “range” of 23-mm shells includes the multi-element (shrapnel) projectile 9-A-4256 with 24 shells!

      No, there is not! No.
      Vladimir, please figure out what kind of 9A-4256 projectile this is, for what weapon and how it is designed.
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      In principle, it is possible to “bundle” and “programmatically” exploded ammunition on its base in the “master-slave” concept!

      No you can not!
      We know the weight of a 23-mm projectile, the filling coefficient is also known, let's proceed from reality and not engage in project planning.
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      .on the Internet there have been more than once promises from “serious comrades from the design bureau” to do this and even: “they are already working”!

      I suggest focusing on reality, not promises! Promises are very good at getting funding. Well, and then, as usual - “well, I couldn’t”.....
      1. -3
        April 21 2024 23: 40
        Quote: Bongo
        No, there is not!
        Vladimir, please figure out what kind of 9A-4256 projectile this is, for what weapon and how it is designed.

        The 9-A-4256 projectile (shot type *23x115*) is intended for air cannons...ZA 2A14 “uses” a shot type *23x152*... So what? I didn’t suggest using shots like *23x115* to fill the ammunition “boxes” of the ZU-23-2 (“zushek”)! Only shells are taken from aircraft ammunition! By the way, this is how the *23x115* shot once appeared on the “base” of the *23x152* shot! Is there no additional "acceleration" of the projectile by plane? So, *23 x 152* will be more powerful than *23 x 115*! Here's your "compensation"!

        Quote: Bongo
        No you can not!
        We know the weight of a 23-mm projectile, the filling coefficient is also known

        Yoly-paly! So, they were able to fit a knockout device (a remote fuse on a powder moderator) into the 9-A-4256 projectile, but they couldn’t replace a miniature electronic programmable fuse with a modern element base in the same place!? In addition, as a temporary measure, shrapnel shells are offered with the “old” ejection device, but not with one timer (slowdown), but with 2-3! If there is a rangefinder on the “firing device”, you don’t even need a “programmable” fuse-timer in the projectile! All you need is a fuse-radio receiver for a coded radio command to detonate!
        1. -4
          April 22 2024 09: 34
          Judging by the descriptions, the remote detonation system that we have developed is based on the principle of laser target designation, there is not a lot of open information, but in principle, if I understand correctly, the signal for detonation is either the appearance or disappearance of a laser beam, and the shells only have a signal receiver, which - it's a type of LED. I would be very grateful if someone finds something new and shares.
          1. +2
            April 22 2024 15: 48
            Quote: bug120560
            Judging by the descriptions, the remote detonation system that we have developed is based on the principle of laser target designation, there is not a lot of open information, but in principle, if I understand correctly, the signal for detonation is either the appearance or disappearance of a laser beam, and the shells only have a signal receiver, which - it's a type of LED.

            fool
  14. +3
    April 21 2024 12: 08
    As always, a good and well-reasoned article. Respect to the author.
  15. +6
    April 21 2024 14: 04
    Excellent article, a real collection of knowledge, dear author. A minute earlier I was reading Skomorokhov’s propaganda legends and an article about the ZU-23 two shelves higher.
  16. -3
    April 21 2024 16: 30
    There are 30 mm shells with remote detonation and they say they are already used on Terminators. The same ones with remote detonation are designed for Air Defense Derivation.
    A key technology for increasing the destructive power of 30-mm OFS ammunition was tested in the SVO zone. During testing, the Terminator tank support combat vehicle used projectiles with controlled detonation. A 30-mm shot with a high-explosive fragmentation projectile and a remote-controlled fuse has been created for the BMPT. A remote control system for detonation time has also been developed. This was announced by the director of the complex of conventional weapons, ammunition and special chemicals of the Rostec State Corporation Bekhan Ozdoev.
    1. +3
      April 22 2024 06: 41
      Quote: Maxim
       A 30-mm shot with a high-explosive fragmentation projectile and a remote-controlled fuse has been created for the BMPT. T

      Isn't the article talking about 23mm shells, what's the connection with 30mm ammunition? request Or do you have nothing more to say?
      1. -4
        April 23 2024 17: 54
        for 23 mm it is also possible to manufacture similar charges, but will they be effective due to the small caliber (not enough striking elements fit)
        1. +3
          April 24 2024 12: 24
          Quote: Maxim
          for 23 mm it is also possible to manufacture similar charges, but will they be effective due to the small caliber (not enough striking elements fit)

          In my opinion, this publication covers this in sufficient detail.
          1. -3
            April 24 2024 17: 11
            This is what the author bases this statement on:
            “The Russian military-industrial complex is capable of producing unique “unparalleled” products, but taking into account the state of the domestic industry producing electronic components, there is great doubt about its ability to create reliable fuses in significant volumes, which will be smaller in size than a similar Rheinmetall product.”
            as I understand everything Western, it’s a light in the window, although the Northern Military District showed the opposite
            1. +3
              April 25 2024 09: 19
              Quote: Maxim
              as I understand everything Western, it’s a light in the window, although the Northern Military District showed the opposite

              Apparently, you have “brain patriotism”. wassat
  17. +3
    April 21 2024 18: 04
    Thanks to Sergey for an excellent article. good
  18. -4
    April 21 2024 19: 57
    Return this trash to the landfill and don't compost your brains. tongue
  19. +2
    April 21 2024 20: 50
    The prospects for air defense even for 30 mm shells are extremely doubtful. And even more so for 23. A reasonable approach is to spend what you have while doing what will be useful tomorrow. And spending resources on modernizing 23mm caliber in the field of air defense is a crime.
  20. -4
    April 21 2024 21: 35
    "25-mm projectile weighing 0,288 g"
    the author is clearly confused. 0,288 kg ;)
    1. +3
      April 22 2024 06: 39
      Quote: Tarasios
      "25-mm projectile weighing 0,288 g"
      the author is clearly confused. 0,288 kg ;)

      A banal typo, not worth paying attention to.
  21. -3
    April 22 2024 00: 15
    Where did the thousands of ZSU-23-4 shilka go? There is greater scope for modernization, even to the point of rearranging the turret to be wheeled, or transporting the entire installation on a semi-trailer as a semi-stationary anti-drone air defense system.
    1. +3
      April 22 2024 15: 47
      Quote: clou
      Where did the thousands of ZSU-23-4 shilka go?

      Just “thousands”, aren’t you confusing anything?
      Quote: clou
      There is more scope for modernization

      What do you know about the design, element base and characteristics of the RPK-2 radar and instrument complex?
  22. 0
    April 22 2024 00: 18
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    All you need is a fuse-radio receiver for a coded radio command to detonate!

    The technology is from the 40s, but now it is relevant again because it is cheap and cheerful.
  23. -4
    April 22 2024 10: 53
    If upgraded, it would be 30 mm and/or 57 mm guns. First of all, you need a ballistic computer and a programmable projectile. Such a projectile can be implemented without electronics inside (with automatic distance input, of course). And 57 mm in general, you can make an optical fuse like a missile defense system, which is important when working on long-range targets.
    1. +3
      April 22 2024 10: 56
      Excuse me, which missile defense system uses an “optical fuse”?
      1. -4
        April 22 2024 15: 55
        OSA air defense missile system. But there may also be radar. I meant the operating principle. Optical is proposed as simpler.
        1. +3
          April 22 2024 16: 12
          Quote: Alexander
          OSA air defense missile system. But there may also be radar. I meant the operating principle. Optical is proposed as simpler.

          Let's talk about what we understand and not talk outright nonsense?
          1. -3
            April 23 2024 10: 58
            Nonsense? How then, for example, does the fuse of the 9M37 missile of the Strela-10 air defense system work?
            1. +2
              April 23 2024 14: 30
              Quote: Alexander
              Nonsense?

              Certainly! Yes
              Quote: Alexander
              How then, for example, does the fuse of the 9M37 missile of the Strela-10 air defense system work?

              In addition to the contact missile, the 9M37 missile system uses an active non-contact optoelectronic a fuse whose operating principle is based on the use of light radiation reflected from the target from a pulsed high-frequency flash mounted on a rocket.
              Quote: Alexander
              I meant the operating principle. Optical is proposed as simpler.

              Do you sincerely consider this principle to be simpler and suitable for an anti-aircraft artillery projectile? wassat
              Can you imagine the dimensions and power consumption of this device? No.
              This method of non-contact detonation has long been recognized as obsolete and abandoned.
              1. -4
                April 23 2024 14: 57
                Quote: Bongo
                Do you sincerely consider this principle to be simpler and suitable for an anti-aircraft artillery projectile?

                A quite suitable principle, it seems to me.
                1. +3
                  April 23 2024 14: 58
                  Quote: DenVB
                  A quite suitable principle, it seems to me.

                  It seems to you...
                  Quote: Bongo
                  Can you imagine the dimensions and power consumption of this device?
                  1. -3
                    April 23 2024 15: 01
                    Quote: Bongo
                    Can you imagine the dimensions and power consumption of this device?

                    Can you imagine a modern phone camera? What are its dimensions and power consumption?
                    1. +2
                      April 23 2024 15: 06
                      Quote: DenVB
                      Can you imagine a modern phone camera? What are its dimensions and power consumption?

                      These are slightly different devices and there are more reliable and noise-proof types of proximity fuses, especially when it comes to anti-aircraft shells. However, if someone believes that the type of fuse he proposes is better than others, he can try to bring his idea to life, or at least write an article on this topic.
                      Good luck!
                      1. -2
                        April 24 2024 14: 06
                        Quote: Bongo
                        there are more reliable and noise-proof types of proximity fuses, especially when it comes to anti-aircraft shells

                        Which ones?
              2. -3
                April 24 2024 12: 45
                And who says that you need to use the ECB of those times? In a 23 mm projectile with a programmable fuse, the explosion time is set via an optical channel, and we are talking about 57 mm.
                1. +2
                  April 24 2024 12: 49
                  Excuse me, what is your education and what do you do for a living?
                  1. 0
                    April 26 2024 10: 41
                    It's clear. We can’t expect a normal answer from you.
                    1. 0
                      April 26 2024 16: 39
                      Why did you decide that the author is obliged to engage in “elimination of your illiteracy”?
  24. -2
    April 22 2024 23: 23
    Quote: Bongo
    Just “thousands”, aren’t you confusing anything?

    anti-aircraft divisions are assigned to any motorized rifle and tank regiment, but the USSR prepared a lot of tanks and everything had to be covered with something.
    Quote: Bongo
    What do you know about the design, element base and characteristics of the RPK-2 radar and instrument complex?

    there are mechanical drives and a generator around the box. It is easier to bring this to fruition, including installing a backup night vision sight and external target designation from a radar installation based on the same shell for the entire battery along cable routes. Or install a generator for each 23-2, or let the soldiers, like in the 41st, shoot by eye in the open air with a ring sight?
    1. +2
      April 23 2024 00: 12
      Quote: clou
      anti-aircraft divisions are assigned to any motorized rifle and tank regiment, but the USSR prepared a lot of tanks and everything had to be covered with something.

      It may be a discovery for you, but production of the ZSU-23-4 was discontinued in 1982 - i.e. the most recent "Shilka" is over 40 years old. I asked you about RPK-2 for a reason, but you were too lazy to study the issue and preferred to engage in demagoguery.

      As for the number of Shilokas in the troops, by the beginning of 2022 there were about 200 ZSU-23-4 of all modifications. Most of them had not undergone repairs or modernization and were in poor technical condition.
  25. +2
    April 23 2024 16: 06
    Manual drives, hedgehog. If anything, the Yankees already in WWII had electric aiming drives on their 40-mm Bofors and quad machine-gun Quadmounts.
    1. +3
      April 23 2024 20: 17
      So Zu-23 is the Soviet Oerlikon, not Bofors.
  26. 0
    April 26 2024 16: 48
    The author asked a question to which there is only one answer - modernization of weapons is ALWAYS needed.
    And there was a lot of talk about anti-aircraft use, but the ZU-23 has been used for many years, in fact, as a super-large-caliber machine gun for firing at ground targets. In recent years, drones have been added, but the slingshot is not very effective against them.
    Therefore, it is necessary to consider the modernization of the “zushka” only for these two purposes. Like an anti-aircraft gun, a “slingshot” can only be used as an “ambulance”, a “last chance” weapon. For example, if an enemy helicopter comes into the attack, or a landing party, including a helicopter, lands very close by.
    Therefore, modernization should primarily concern drives - to quickly aim at a target, and sights, including night sights. There is no point in making expensive modernizations, and it makes no sense to finish the “zushka” like an anti-aircraft gun. Shells will cope better with air defense tasks. Well, adding a couple of MANPADS to the “zushka” won’t hurt. If we talk about air defense, then yes, to combat drones it is necessary to equip them with sights to detect them, up to millimeter-wave radars and laser locators.
  27. 0
    April 28 2024 11: 12
    After the end of the Vietnam War, our anti-aircraft gunners no longer had the opportunity to fire at real air targets
    In Syria in 1982, our air defense units were present and fought, I just don’t know if the ZU-32-2 was used there.