The main fuse of Russian naval artillery during the Russo-Japanese War. Brink pipe

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The main fuse of Russian naval artillery during the Russo-Japanese War. Brink pipe

Having parsed it into previous article features of the tube arr. 1894, we move on to fuses 11DM and Brink.

Fuze 11DM


As mentioned earlier, the tubes arr. 1883 War Department and mod. 1894 of the Navy Department were intended for high-explosive shells filled with gunpowder. The 11DM fuse can be considered as an analogue of the above tubes, but for high-explosive projectiles filled with pyroxylin. It was, like the pipe arr. 1894, bottom, impact and inertial, but, unlike the latter, had a two-capsule design.


The lower part of the 11DM fuse has a similar principle of operation, but a different design with a tube arr. 1894. In the tube arr. 1894, the striker was held in a safe position by a safety spring before the shot, and when fired, the extensor carried out cocking.

In the 11DM fuse, the design of both had differences, and there was also an additional fuse - a pin (6), which was removed after the fuses were delivered to the position (V.I. Rdultovsky wrote “to the fortress”). However, the essence of the mechanism of the lower part of the fuse remained the same - after the shot, cocking was carried out: the striker was released, but was held by the force of inertia in the bottom of the tube. When hitting an obstacle, the projectile slowed down, and the striker, carried away by the force of inertia, now acting in the opposite direction (in the direction of the projectile’s flight), rushed forward.

But then the differences began. In the tube arr. 1894, the drummer hit the detonator capsule, which, when exploding, transferred the energy of the explosion to the powder filling of the projectile. In the 11DM fuse, the fire chain was more complex. The striker did not hit the detonator capsule, but the igniter capsule (10); its task was to ignite the black powder, the charge of which was pressed into the sleeve (11).



The gunpowder, burning, set the firing pin (12) in motion, which, striking the detonator capsule (15), caused it, forgive the tautology, detonation. The detonator capsule (15), in turn, ensured the detonation of the intermediate charge (2), consisting of 55,5 g of picric acid. And this picric acid itself was a detonator strong enough to make the pyroxylin in the shell explode.

Why were all these complications necessary?

To detonate a projectile filled with black or smokeless gunpowder, it was enough to ignite the gunpowder. But to detonate a projectile filled with pyroxylin, a fairly strong intermediate explosion was required, of which the detonator of the tube mod. 1894 did not provide for the Maritime Department.

As a result, the fire chain “drummer – primer – projectile powder” of the sample tubes. 1883/1894 had to be complicated to “drummer - primer - gunpowder accelerating the second striker (striking pin) - primer - intermediate charge - projectile pyroxylin" in the 11DM fuse.

Since the fire chain of the fuse is 11DM relative to the sample tube. 1894 lengthened, the time during which the projectile was detonated after touching the barrier also increased. But - not too significant, in fact, only during the combustion of gunpowder in the sleeve (11) and the movement of the striker (12), which covered the distance to the detonator no longer due to the force of inertia, but due to the expanding powder gases, that is, much faster.

If the gunpowder and firing pin had the ballistics of a Kalashnikov assault rifle cartridge, then their operating time would be something like one ten-thousandth of a second. Since black powder was used, and the design of the bushing does not resemble the barrel in any way, their “working” time was, of course, longer. But even ten times greater time gives only 0,001 s, during which a 12-mm projectile, which has an average speed of overcoming a 178-mm armor plate of about 388 m/s at a distance of 30 cables, will only travel something like 39 cm.

Therefore, it should be assumed that, other things being equal, there is a significant difference between the projectile touching the obstacle and its rupture at the sample tube. 1894 and there was no 11DM fuse. And it is not at all surprising that V.I. Rdultovsky in his “Historical sketch of the development of tubes and fuses from the beginning of their use to the end of the world war of 1914–1918.” indicated a fuse operating time of 0,005 s, which was the standard for a conventional impact inertial fuse that does not have a special deceleration.

I would like to especially note that 11DM was a Military Department fuse, and none of the sources available to me mention that the 11DM fuse was used during the Russo-Japanese War or earlier fleet. V.I. Rdultovsky points out: “Fuse 11 DM was adopted for 6- and 10-inch. shells filled with wet pyroxylin and taken from the Naval Department after the declaration of Japanese war” - that is, we are talking about coastal artillery.

Russian Imperial Navy in the period 1900–1905. used for high-explosive and armor-piercing shells or a tube mod. 1894, or a two-capsule fuse designed by A.F. Brink, which will be discussed below.

Double-capsule fuze of Lieutenant General Brink model 1896


In a previous article I referred to this tube as the “Captain A. F. Brink Design Double Action Shock Tube.” This is one of historical options for naming this pipe, and it is quite legal to use it. Unfortunately, this title has caused confusion among readers unfamiliar with the topic.

The fact is that, as I wrote earlier, naval artillery fuses of that era were divided into impact, remote and double-action tubes. The latter were a variant of a remote tube, which ensured not only the detonation of a projectile after a certain time had passed from the moment the projectile left the barrel, but also when it hit an obstacle, if it happened before the allotted time for remote detonation.

Alas, some took the phrase “double action” in the expression “Captain A. F. Brink's Double Action Shock Tube” as an indication that the tube was a double action tube. Of course, such an assumption is wrong. But, in order not to create confusion, I will henceforth refer to this tube by its other official name: “Lieutenant General Brink’s 1896 model double-capsule fuse” or, more simply, “Brink’s tube.”

Already from the name, it obviously follows that the Brink tube was two-capsule, like the 11DM fuse. The principle of their operation was also extremely similar, although the design was slightly different. In essence, the “first stage” of the Brink fuse almost completely copied the tube mod. 1894.


The drawings are not to scale - unfortunately, it is unknown.

After the shot, the extensor (5) acted on the safety spring (4), thereby releasing the “lower” striker (3). The firing pin of the “lower” striker (6) struck the primer, which ignited the powder firecracker (11), which accelerated the “upper” striker (10).

Before the shot, the “upper” striker (10) was kept from accidental firing by a sleeve with cut edges (12), but under the influence of powder gases, these edges, of course, easily unbent. Accordingly, the “upper” striker (10), accelerated by the powder gases of the firecracker, struck the detonator capsule (14), which consisted of mercury fulminate. The explosion energy of the capsule was sufficient to detonate two bombs (15 and 16) of dry pyroxylin, the explosion of which detonated the pyroxylin with which the projectile was loaded.

In other words, both the fire chains of the 11DM fuse and the Brink tube were extremely similar and included “a firing pin – a primer – gunpowder accelerating the second firing pin (striking pin) – a primer – an intermediate charge – gunpowder of the projectile.”


Nevertheless, the 11DM fuse provided an average deceleration of 0,005 s, while the Brink tube provided an order of magnitude more. In the article “Testing naval large-caliber shells and experimental firing at the armored compartment of ships of the Andrei Pervozvanny type” I talked about firing made by shells filled with pyroxylin. For example, one of these 12-mm caliber shells pierced a 203-mm Krupp armor plate and exploded while passing the bulkhead located behind it - that is, about 2,5 meters behind the plate.

Taking into account the fact that this projectile had a speed on the armor of 462 m/s, and with the approximate resistance of the armor plate “K” = 2, we obtain a projectile speed after overcoming the plate of 200 m/s. Accordingly, taking into account the time it takes to pass the armor plate, we can say that the Brink tube in this case provided a deceleration of approximately 62,7 seconds, that is, almost an order of magnitude longer than the standard operating time of the 0,04DM fuse. Such a deceleration (11–0,05 s) is quite typical for armor-piercing projectiles of the first half of the twentieth century: for example, Professor L. G. Goncharov, in his classification of fuses, classifies them in the “Medium deceleration” group.

So, we see that the principle of operation of the 11DM and the Brink tube is extremely similar, if not the same, but the action time of the fuse nevertheless differs by an order of magnitude.

Why could this happen?

"Tight" capsule


From the diagrams above, it is clearly visible that the stings of the strikers of the strikers of the tube arr. 1894 and the 11DM fuse were sharp, while the Brink tube had a flat tip. At the tube arr. 1894, the sting hit directly the detonator, causing its immediate initiation. In the 11DM fuse, the sting struck a highly sensitive capsule, which, after such a blow, also immediately ignited, igniting the gunpowder. But in the Brink tube, a not sharp, but flat sting struck a regular rifle capsule (9), which gave the first significant difference between the Brink tube and the above-mentioned tubes.

If the highly sensitive capsule of the 11DM fuse required an impact force of 1 g/cm to ignite, then the rifle capsule of the Brink tube required a force of 600 g/cm (according to V.I. Rdultovsky). Moreover, such a force more than eight times greater in the Brink tube had to be achieved not by a sharp, but by a flat tip of the striker.

An attempt to calculate deceleration, similar to the one I made in the previous article, without a drawing of a Brink tube and knowledge of the mass of the striker, hardly makes sense - too many assumptions will have to be made. But we can safely say that to ignite the primer, a much more powerful effect was required than in the sample tube. 1894 and fuse 11DM. This led to the fact that when colliding with a relatively weak obstacle, but one against which the sample tube. 1894 would have worked; the primer (9) would not have ignited in the Brink tube.

This suggests the following hypothesis.

Obviously, when a shell hits an enemy ship, it does not in all cases immediately hit the armor. It can first penetrate the relatively thin side plating, and only then get into the barbette, the armored cover of the chimneys, or the bevel of the carapace deck. In this case, it would probably be nice for the fuse of an armor-piercing projectile to fire not at the moment of breaking through the thin side plating, but when it hits the armor plate, in order to prevent premature rupture.

This hypothesis is logical, but perhaps still incorrect. The problem is that I have no data that could prove that the first primer of a Brink tube failed to ignite when struck by a thin barrier.

There were, of course, cases when Russian shells pierced the spar or pipes of Japanese battleships without exploding, but a shell with a delay of 0,05 s should not have exploded upon such contact - it should have exploded after those same 0,05 s after contact . Let's say a 10-inch shell from the squadron battleship Pobeda, equipped with a fuse with a delay of 0,05 s, at a distance of 40 cables should have given a gap of 20 m behind a thin barrier. Taking into account the “cone-shaped” zone of destruction by fragments, such an explosion would not have caused damage to the Japanese ship, which means it would hardly have received a mention in the report, or even would have gone unnoticed altogether.

Other cases when, for example, a 6-inch shell penetrated the Japanese “on both sides” and flew away without exploding, were not so frequent and can be attributed to defects in the fuses. And even the famous tests carried out by Rear Admiral Jessen in July 1905 (firing the cruiser Rossiya) do not give a direct answer to this question. Maybe the Brink tubes were triggered by metal junk used as a target, or maybe by hitting the ground.

In view of the above, I cannot exclude the possibility that the use of a “rifle” primer and a blunt firing pin was introduced only to prevent the detonation of the projectile when stored on a ship. But the fact is that the “tight” capsule of the Brink tube did not and could not provide a slowdown, at least any more than the capsule of the sample tube. 1894 - quite obvious.

To begin with, let us note that the mass of the firing pin and the distance from the tip of the firing pin to the primer at the sample tube. 1894 and Brink pipes are very similar. In both tubes, the capsule is ignited under the influence of the firing pin, which at the moment of impact on the capsule has a certain inertial force. This force is influenced by the mass of the striker and the difference in speeds before and after overcoming the obstacle into which the projectile hit. It is also obvious that the inertial force of the striker increases only until the projectile overcomes the obstacle.

Consequently:

1. If the resistance of the obstacle turns out to be sufficient for the striker of the Brink tube to gain enough inertial force to ignite the first primer, then ignition will occur at the same time at which detonation of the primer at the sample tube would occur. 1894.

2. If, at the moment of contact of the striker with the first primer, the striker of the Brink tube has not yet gained sufficient inertia force, but the projectile continues to slow down, then the striker will gain this force until the projectile passes the obstacle. Accordingly, the first primer of the Brink tube will either ignite while passing the obstacle, or will not ignite at all.

In other words, if two identical projectiles, one of which is equipped with a Brink fuse, and the other with a mod. 1894, hit a thick armor plate, then the first capsule of the Brink tube will ignite almost simultaneously with the detonation of the tube mod. 1894 during the passage of the plate.

If the plate is thick enough to ensure the operation of the Brink tube, but not enough for the firing pin to “reach” the primer at the moment the plate passes, then detonation of the primer of the tube arr. 1894 and the ignition of the first primer of the Brink tube will occur at an equal distance behind the stove.

And only if the resistance of the obstacle is insufficient to ignite the primer of the Brink tube, but sufficient for the sample tube. 1894, then the shell with the Brink tube will fly away without exploding, and the shell with the tube mod. 1894 will give its usual gap behind the obstacle.

Therefore, the rifle primer and blunt firing pin are not involved and do not provide retardation of the Brink tube.

Gunpowder firecracker


Apparently, the key difference between the Brink tube and the 11DM fuse, which provides deceleration, was the gunpowder in the intermediate detonator, which V.I. Rdultovsky for the Brink tube calls a “powder firecracker.”


The powder charge in the 11DM fuse, which consisted of grains of gunpowder, worked, in essence, the same way as gunpowder in a conventional cartridge. When ignited from the primer, the thermal impulse spread very quickly throughout the entire powder charge in the cartridge case, individual grains burned immediately over the entire area, the pressure under the influence of the released gases increased like an avalanche, accelerating the combustion process. The role of the bullet in the cartridge was played by the firing pin (12).

At the same time, a firecracker could be made from pressed gunpowder, essentially representing a gunpowder bomb. In this case, it would burn much more slowly than grain gunpowder of the same mass, since the flame would not cover the surface of the powder grains along the entire length of the firecracker, only its edge facing the primer would burn. A slow-burning type of gunpowder could also be used, or a fast-burning one, but subjected to a phlegmatization procedure - that is, impregnated with a composition that reduces its burning rate. It should be assumed that all this, together or separately, provided the Brink tube with an action time of 0,04–0,05 s, sufficient for the projectile to explode behind the armor plate, and not in the process of overcoming it.

The hypothesis that the fuses used gunpowder with different effects is confirmed by the design of the 5DM fuse, which is also given by V.I. Rdultovsky. This fuse is identical in almost all respects to the 11DM, with the exception of the presence of a powder moderator (5) in the 12DM.


Moreover, as V.I. Rdultovsky points out, the operating time of 11DM is 0,005 s, and 5DM is generally 0,25–0,5 s. It is also obvious that the size of the powder moderator could not provide such a slowdown if it were made from the same gunpowder that was used in the 11DM fuse.

The igniter caps for the 11DM and 5DM fuses are identical, respectively, the thermal impulse (300 m/s) will reach the gunpowder in the 11DM and the powder moderator in the 5DM almost simultaneously. And if the same gunpowder was used in the powder moderator, then a small “gasket” in the form of a powder moderator could not possibly slow down the operation of the fuse from 0,005 s to 0,25–0,5 s.

Consequently, at a minimum, the powder retarder had a powder different from that used in the 11DM fuse, and providing greater retardation. And if so, then no one could stop the Navy Department from equipping the two-capsule fuses with a powder squib, which slowed down the action of the fuse relative to the gunpowder used in 11DM.

On criticism of the Brink pipe


The following are usually mentioned as complaints about Lieutenant General Brink's 1896 model two-capsule fuse:

1. Use of Brink tubes in high-explosive shells.

2. Technical imperfection of fuses.

Obviously, the use of double-capsule fuses with a delay of 0,04–0,05 s for high-explosive projectiles turned such projectiles into poor armor-piercing ones, since, unlike real armor-piercing ammunition, their cases did not have sufficient strength to consistently penetrate armor, even smaller thickness than armor-piercing ones. This did not, of course, make such shells completely useless: in describing the damage to Japanese ships, we often come across cases where shells equipped with a Brink tube nevertheless exploded inside Japanese battleships and armored cruisers, causing some damage to the latter. But it is no less obvious that the fuse cannot be reproached for its use for other purposes.

Another thing is the list of technical shortcomings of Lieutenant General Brink’s double-capsule fuses, which V. I. Rdultovsky gives, namely:

1. Poor fuse action when colliding with a weak barrier or falling into water.

2. Too soft firing pin (10) - this part of the fuse was made of aluminum, which originally contained impurities, and was therefore harder than pure aluminum. Subsequently, when they learned to make aluminum without impurities, it turned out to be too soft and sometimes did not ensure ignition of the primer upon impact.

3. Verbatim: “When hitting thicker plates, the front part of the fuse could break off due to the low strength of the connection with the body. This created an unsecured fuse action.”

The first drawback cannot be considered as such if the use of a “tight” capsule was a conscious decision that made it possible to ignore light obstacles and ensure that the tube would fire only when it encountered the ship’s armor. In this case, it must be stated that the decision was erroneous, not the design. If the rifle fuse and blunt firing pin were used solely to prevent the detonation of the projectile during storage, then yes, this was, of course, a drawback.

The rest... Both the soft firing pin and the broken body meant that the fuse would not have worked. At the same time, the data I have speaks very well about the operation of Brink fuses.

In all three cases of firing pyroxylin-filled shells into the 1904-mm armor plate of the Andrew Pervozvanny-class battleship that took place in 203, the Brink tubes obviously experienced an extremely strong blow, but they worked without a flaw. During experiments conducted on June 13, 1905, Rear Admiral Jessen fired 7 shells with Brink tubes, and only one of them did not explode, ricocheting off the ground. It is quite obvious that the same fuses were used in these firings as in the Russo-Japanese War, and such results do not at all indicate the poor quality of the two-capsule Brink tubes.

V.I. Rdultovsky believed that the permissible percentage of fuze failures should not exceed 5%, and, probably, the technical imperfections he pointed out led to the fact that for Brink tubes this figure was slightly higher. But, obviously, not to such an extent as to render our armor-piercing shells useless.

Conclusions


While working on a series of articles devoted to armor and shells of the Russo-Japanese War, I came to the conclusion that the Russian Imperial Navy had first-class 12-inch armor-piercing shells and fuses for them. But, unfortunately, due to the capabilities of the artillery of those years, they could become a decisive force only at relatively short distances of artillery combat, 15–20 cables maximum. And in order to converge on such distances, either the consent and willingness of the enemy to fight at them was required, or squadron speed exceeding that of the enemy and allowing him to impose these distances.

Alas, the Russian fleet had neither one nor the other. The Japanese, using shells whose explosions were very clearly visible and made it possible to effectively adjust the fire, relied on increasing the firing distance to 30 cables or more, converging at shorter distances only accidentally and briefly, or when the fire of our ships was already suppressed by them. At long distances, we were forced to respond to them with our high-explosive shells, which turned out to be much weaker than the Japanese ones - but this is the topic of a separate series of articles, which I will certainly get to someday.

The armor-piercing shells of the Russian Imperial Navy did not play a noticeable role in the Russo-Japanese War, not because they were bad, but because our fleet was unable to provide the necessary conditions for their effective use, that is, convergence over short distances.

In conclusion, I present to the respected reader a table of the distances for a projectile to pass behind a plate before the explosion for a fuse with a standard deceleration of 0,04 s for Krupp armor of various thicknesses.


You need to understand, of course, that when hitting a ship, the indicated distances will be significantly shorter, because after overcoming the same armored belt, the projectile can hit the slope of the armored deck or a coal pit with coal, and even if not, it will meet steel bulkheads on its way, and that’s all these obstacles will slow down its movement.

And, of course, we must never forget that the fuses of those years had very large tolerances for their operating time, so that the Brink tube, like the Baranovsky tube, could cause either a premature rupture or a projectile detonation with a large delay from the time allotted to him.
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  1. +4
    April 19 2024 05: 23
    Andrey, thank you for the series of interesting articles!
    1. +2
      April 19 2024 05: 40
      I join the kind words above!
      My respect Andrey, do not stop in your creativity!
      1. +2
        April 19 2024 11: 06
        Good afternoon, Vladislav, thank you!
    2. -1
      April 19 2024 06: 05
      Alas, some took the phrase “double action” in the expression “Captain A. F. Brink's Double Action Shock Tube” as an indication that the tube was a double action tube.

      How else can you perceive double action? If there are two actions, then there are two of them; only someone who does not know the Russian language can perceive two actions as one.
      1. -1
        April 19 2024 06: 08
        But, in order not to create confusion, I will henceforth call this tube by its other official name: “Two-capsule fuse

        There has never been any confusion among those who can distinguish one action from two, but there has been confusion among those who do not have basic knowledge and do not understand Russian.
        1. -3
          April 19 2024 06: 43
          This is one of the historical options for naming this pipe, and its use is quite legitimate.

          Yeah, historical, among the would-be historians and the idiots equated with them, who cannot distinguish one action from two.
          1. +3
            April 19 2024 12: 57
            Quote: Jura 27
            Yeah, historical, among the would-be historians and the idiots equated with them, who cannot distinguish one action from two.

            For you, one of the first double-action head fuses. Used on cast iron shells of the navy and coastal artillery, with the original text. "Special manual for artillery."
            " Expliquez le fonctionnement du mécanisme à double réaction?
            1.dans le tir, au départ du projectile, le marteau, par suite de la force d'inertie, est rejeté en arrière jusque contre les goupilles en fer, en rompant en partie ses freins;
            2. à l'arrivée, le marteau achève de briser ses tourillons et se porte en avant pour frapper la capsule
            ."
            There is no need to insult people, this will only worsen the attitude of others towards you.
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 14: 04
              Quote: 27091965i
              For you, one of the first double-action head fuses. Expliquez le fonctionnement du mécanisme à double réaction?


              Sorry, but in English double action is NOT double réaction, but double-acting. :)

              A more sophisticated fuze is the double-acting fuze, which is sensitive to both contact and grazing.[note 1] An example of such a double-acting fuze is the British WW II Fuze, DA and percussion, No. 119.

              And this is again the designation for fuses that combine remote and impact mechanisms in their design. :)

              In general, in the literature of those years, the Brink fuse was designated as a “double impact pyroxylin tube” or “double-capsule impact tube for pyroxylin bombs,” but not a “double-action tube.”

              And if someone thinks that he saw a “double action” in the literature of those years in relation to the Brink fuse, then his memory simply failed him by replacing “double impact tube” with “double action tube.”
              1. 0
                Yesterday, 14: 36
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Sorry, but in English double action is NOT double réaction, but double-acting.

                Dear Alexander, look at all my comments, dialogue with dear Victor. I wrote what was meant, in France at that time, by "double réaction". I repeat;
                "Comme un mouvement, la réaction avance et recule successivement dans un double mouvement alternatif, réaction résultent du double mouvement.."

                The Navy stopped using this terminology as outdated. In the army it was also used in WWII in relation to shells where these fuses were used. They were both head and bottom, they were also used for shells of the first tank guns.
                Regarding the Brink pipe I wrote;
                It all depends on “from which bell tower you look”, there is nothing wrong with such a name.
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 16: 38
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  The Navy stopped using this terminology as outdated. In the army it was also used in WWII in relation to shells where these fuses were used.

                  Please provide a link (scan) to a historical source in which the term “double action” would be used in relation to a two-capsule impact fuse and let’s close the topic.

                  I looked through, I think, twenty domestic documents from the late 19th to early 20th centuries. In relation to shock tubes, the names “double shock tube”, “double-capsule shock tube”, but never “double action” were used.

                  The phrase “double action” was applied only to tubes in which the remote-action mechanism was supplemented by an impact mechanism. All.
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 18: 08
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    Please provide a link (scan) to a historical source

                    "Ministry of Armaments and Military Industry. Artillery."
                    The scan shows the fuses used.
                    The phrase “double action” was applied only to tubes in which the remote-action mechanism was supplemented by an impact mechanism.

                    In France, the term "Fusée à double effet" was used to designate impact fuses.
                    I might add that the Marine 164mm Mod 1893 used both Marine and Army fuses.
                    1. 0
                      Yesterday, 22: 00
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      "Ministry of Armaments and Military Industry. Artillery."
                      The scan shows the fuses used.

                      Тут ведь такая штука. В конце XIX начале XX века даже русское дворянство общалось и вело деловую переписку на русском языке. Точно так же на русском в Империи велась вся деловая переписка, составлялась техническая документация, наставления и т.д.

                      Мне не интересно как там французы в конце XIX века называли двухкапсюльные ударные трубки. Более того я не знаю были ли у французов тогда двухкапсюльные ударные трубки, насколько помню Рдултовский ни одной двухкапсюльной французской ударной трубки в своём труде не описал.

                      Взрыватели двойного (дистанционного, ударного) действия французы называют fusée à double effet.

                      Я уверен что среди здесь присутствующих никто не изучал двойную/двухкапсюльную ударную трубку Бринка по французским источникам. Это ведь так?

                      Если так, то зачем Вы ссылаетесь на французов? Потому что не можете сослаться на русский документ того времени?

                      Хорошо. Давайте сойдёмся на том в русских письменных источниках конца XIX-го начала XX-го века никакой "ударной трубки Бринка двойного действия" никогда не существовало, а французы может что у себя на французском (которого я не знаю) и писали про fusée à double réaction , но писали они это НЕ про двухкапсюльную/двойную ударную трубку Бринка.

                      Сойдёмся?
    3. +5
      April 19 2024 08: 19
      Good morning, Victor, thank you for your kind words!
  2. +2
    April 19 2024 08: 11
    Somewhere I read a version (maybe even here) that the firing pin in the Brink fuses was made of soft aluminum, and simply crushed against the primer without triggering.
    1. +3
      April 19 2024 09: 34
      Somewhere I read a version (maybe even here) that the firing pin in the Brink fuses was made of soft aluminum, and simply crushed against the primer without triggering.

      At Rdultovsky's.
      At the time of development of this system, it was still difficult to obtain aluminum of sufficient purity, and the aluminum used to make the tube parts contained random impurities of other metals, which increased the hardness of the striker. By the time of the war (referring to the Russo-Japanese War) aluminum began to be made much cleaner, the strikers became softer and therefore did not provide sufficient impact on mercury fulminate and did not always ensure the action of the fuses. After the war, this part was made of steel.
  3. +2
    April 19 2024 09: 08
    In a previous article I referred to this tube as the “Captain A. F. Brink Design Double Action Shock Tube.” This is one of the historical options for naming this pipe, and it is quite legitimate to use it.

    Wrongful. Double action shock tube - this means remote and impact action. "Brink tube" - single action, percussion.
    By the way, a question has arisen. Neither the literature nor the biography of Brink describes the process of his creation of this very “Brink tube”. There is the creation of artillery pieces, but there is no pipe. Maybe the author has such information?
    1. +2
      April 19 2024 11: 10
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Wrongfully

      Technically illegal, that is, from the point of view of the existing classification of pipes. But it is historically legitimate, since if our ancestors called it that, then we have the right to call it that. “Logic is the enemy of the historian” in this case:
      It is impossible to classify a Brink tube as a “double-action percussion” - it is a two-in-one oxymoron.
      Calling a Brink tube a "double-action percussion" is fine because that's what was done in the past.
      1. +2
        April 19 2024 13: 35
        since if the ancestors called it that, then we have the right to call it that.

        Can you give an example of specialized literature where the “ancestors” call it that?
        1. +2
          April 19 2024 13: 43
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Can you give an example of specialized literature?

          I can’t - Andrey Tameev had a screenshot of Tsushima on the radical, but it’s out of reach. Vasiliev and Titushkin call Brink a “double-action shock tube,” but, again, without screenshots of historical documents
          1. +3
            April 19 2024 13: 45
            Consequently, at this stage, the appeal to the “ancestors” seems groundless. Do you agree?
            1. 0
              April 19 2024 13: 58
              Of course I don't agree. You can request a scan of a historical document if I am making a statement for the first time, and it goes against generally accepted information. If I take the data of historians, then attempts to refute them without evidence are groundless.
              1. +5
                April 19 2024 14: 05
                My evidence is in the comments below. I do not require a scan of the document. I have known you for a long time and respect you as an author. But, excuse me, you often “float” on technical issues. In this case, a link to at least one “professional” document would immediately dot the “t”. Tameev, Titushkin and Vasiliev are not authorities in this regard.
                1. +1
                  April 19 2024 14: 39
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  My evidence is in the comments below.

                  Answered hi
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  Tameev, Titushkin and Vasiliev are not authorities in this regard.

                  If we are talking about classification, then maybe you are right. But if several different people, working with archival documents, name a certain pipe in exactly the same way, without referring to each other, then this probably says something.
                  I repeat once again - this is not what we are talking about. to record the Brink tube into double-action tubes. We are talking only about the historicity of this naming
              2. 0
                Yesterday, 14: 19
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Of course I don't agree. You can request a scan of a historical document if I am making a statement for the first time, and it goes against generally accepted information.


                At the link https://istmat.org/node/66431 you can see quite a few historical “Most Sublime Reports on the Actions of the War Ministry” for different years. The Brink fuse was called differently in these documents over the years, but was never called a “double-action tube.”

                And the fact that Vasiliev and Titushkin, having forgotten what the Brink fuse was called in historical documents, called it a “double-action tube,” rather indicates that they read little literature about fuses.

                And yes, in the Most Submissive Report on the actions of the War Ministry for 1908, fuses for the Navy Department’s main shells finally appear.

                So 1908 apparently was the last year of production of the Brink fuse.
              3. 0
                Yesterday, 14: 34
                Although no, already in 1907 “fuses for toluene shells” appeared at the naval department. But the annual production is small, only 7995 pieces. Apparently 1907 was the first year of production of fuses 7DT, 8DT and 9DT.
          2. +1
            April 19 2024 14: 01
            The most “ancient” definition in the specialized literature that I found was that of D.E. Kozlovsky in his reference book "Artillery" 1929 edition.
            For timely bursting of the projectile, special devices are prescribed - tubes. They come in two types, two actions: percussion and remote. The first ones are assigned to
            explosion of a projectile when it hits an obstacle after falling, and they are sometimes equipped with a moderator, thanks to which the projectile does not explode immediately after falling, but after it has gone deep enough into the ground or an obstacle in general.
            Tubes of the second type make it possible to burst a projectile at any point, during flight, at any distance from the gun, at any distance, of course within the duration
            tube actions.
            Sometimes both of these actions are combined in one tube, then it is called a double-action tube.
            Shock tubes connected to a detonator, that is, with a small amount of substance capable of causing an explosion of the substance filling its projectile, are called fuses, but the bases of their design are the same as shock tubes.
            1. +1
              April 19 2024 14: 38
              Quote: Dekabrist
              The most "ancient" definition

              I repeat - you are again talking about definition, about classification. And no one argues with this. Again, for a person. accustomed to the modern level of technology, naming a product that contradicts its classification looks a bit outlandish. I understand it.
              However, there is something else that needs to be understood.
              Firstly, it is completely unclear when the “impact/remote/double action” classification became canonical and generally accepted. Secondly, I have a completely historical document in which the Brink tube is called “Double percussion pyroxylin tube” and, in fact, such a name is also outside the current classification. For example, in the artillery textbook of 1912, or, say, in Yatsyno, there is no division of shock tubes into “double” and “single”. And in general, I have not seen this in any classification. In the 1912 textbook, shock tubes are divided, literally, into “tubes for high-explosive shells” and “tubes for armor-piercing shells.”
              In other words, it is possible that the Brink double-action shock tube was called before the classification became generally accepted, or even in contradiction to the existing one - there is nothing strange in this
              1. +2
                April 19 2024 14: 46
                it is possible that the Brink double-action shock tube was called before the classification became generally accepted, or even in contradiction to the existing one

                Perhaps they called it. But it’s possible that they didn’t name it. L'exactitude est la politesse des rois.
                1. +2
                  April 19 2024 14: 59
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  Perhaps they called it. But it’s possible that they didn’t name it.

                  However, three people who worked with the archives (three off the top of my head, I came across this name in the works of other authors) believe that there was such a name and use it. We may doubt their competence in technical matters. But it’s hard for me to imagine that for some reason they all set out to identify a Brink pipe using a classifier and they all made the same, and completely childish, mistake.
                  But it’s easy to assume that the Brink pipe was really called that somewhere in the documents. Especially considering the “non-class” naming “Double Impact”, which actually existed.
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 14: 42
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    However, three people who worked with the archives (three off the top of my head, I came across this name in the works of other authors) believe that there was such a name and use it. We may doubt their competence in technical matters. But it’s hard for me to imagine that for some reason they all set out to identify a Brink pipe using a classifier and they all made the same, and completely childish, mistake.

                    What’s hard to imagine here? In the same tables of the “Most Submitted Reports on the Actions of the War Department,” “double shock tubes” and “double-capsule tubes” are adjacent to “double-action tubes.”

                    Here, in the minds of respected authors, “horses and people” and “double-action tubes” with “double shock tubes” are mixed together. Happens.
    2. +3
      April 19 2024 11: 55
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Maybe the author has such information?

      Alas, I don’t have it
  4. +2
    April 19 2024 11: 09
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the review.
    In a previous article I referred to this tube as the “Captain A. F. Brink Design Double Action Shock Tube.” This is one of the historical options for naming this pipe, and its use is quite legitimate. Unfortunately, this title has caused confusion among readers unfamiliar with the topic.
    Alas, some took the phrase “double action” in the expression “Captain A. F. Brink's Double Action Shock Tube” as an indication that the tube was a double action tube. Of course, such an assumption is wrong.

    It all depends on “from which bell tower you look”, there is nothing wrong with such a name. In France, at that time, there was no division between double-acting shock tubes and remote shock tubes. In the Navy and coastal artillery, where naval guns were used, the term "mécanismè à double réaction", "fusée double" was used. Fuzes similar in design to Brink tubes were defined as “double-action” fuses.
    1. +1
      April 19 2024 13: 43
      Fuzes similar in design to Brink tubes were defined as “double-action” fuses.

      You are “casting a shadow on the fence.” The Brink pipe does not fit the definition of Double effect fuzes.
      1. 0
        April 19 2024 14: 17
        Quote: Dekabrist
        You are “casting a shadow on the fence.” The Brink pipe does not fit the definition of Double effect fuzes.

        And it won’t work, you wrote about field artillery, this is a long-range impact fuse.
        1. +1
          April 19 2024 14: 35
          And what is the fundamental difference?
          1. +1
            April 19 2024 15: 13
            Quote: Dekabrist
            And what is the fundamental difference?

            Dear Victor, in the comments above I described what the French meant by a “double-action impact fuse” and provided a diagram.
            1. +1
              April 19 2024 15: 30
              The French, English and Russian understanding of the double-action fuse is identical.
              'Double effect fuzes' also named 'Time and percussion fuzes' combined the time fuze and percussion fuze behaviors, allowing to chose one or the other, and to ensure explosion at the impact if it happened before the end of the countdown or if this latter was defective. More generally, double effect fuzes could be the name of percussion fuzes with selectable optional delay.
              1. +1
                April 19 2024 15: 31
                Quote: Dekabrist
                The French, English and Russian understanding of the double-action fuse is identical.

                If it's not difficult, the year of publication,
                1. +1
                  April 19 2024 21: 56
                  WORDS AND OBJECTS TO TELL
                  WORLD WAR 1 TRAGEDY
                  1. 0
                    April 20 2024 09: 10
                    Quote: Dekabrist
                    WORDS AND OBJECTS TO TELL
                    WORLD WAR 1 TRAGEDY

                    Thanks for the link, but it refers to WW1. It was not for nothing that I was interested in the year of publication; the example I gave was taken from the publication of the Navy Department in 1890. It uses two terms for designation: “mécanisme à double réaction”, “mécanisme à friction”. In the next edition of "Naval Artillery", published in 1909, the term "mécanisme à double réaction" is not used. Only the term “mécanisme à friction” is left, which is misleading. If you do not know the whole “path” of development of the fuse. Time passes, views change, and so does the terminology used. hi
                    1. 0
                      April 20 2024 23: 17
                      If you do not know the whole “path” of development of the fuse. Time passes, views change, and so does the terminology used.

                      And if you don’t know the language, then it’s difficult to trace the “path” of development and you can go astray, which is what happened to you.
                      In the comment above you provided a drawing of the classic French double-action fuse fusée obus double effect 25/38 modèle 1880 (I emphasize - 1880 of the year).
                      It is no coincidence that I singled out double effet, because the French have always called the double-action fuse that way. Action in French swerve.
                      А reaction translated from French - opposition. The figure in your comment to a certain Yura 27 shows an impact fuse, and the phrase mécanisme à double réaction in the text means that the safety mechanism is triggered in two stages - when fired, the safety pins “e” are partially destroyed, and when the projectile hits, they are completely destroyed.
                      Accordingly, the Brink fuse, according to any terminology, even the most “old” one, does not fall under the definition of “double action”.
                      In conclusion, here is a scan of an article from the magazine REVUE MILITAIRE SUISSE for 1878 about double-action fuses - FUSEES A DOUBLE EFFECT.
                      1. 0
                        April 21 2024 10: 29
                        Perhaps I will not agree with you.

                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        Your comment to a certain Yura 27 presents an impact fuse, and the phrase mécanisme à double réaction in the text means that the safety mechanism is triggered in two stages - when fired, the safety pins “e” are partially destroyed, and when the projectile hits, they are completely destroyed.

                        My comment says;
                        For you, one of the first double-action head fuzes

                        In the next modification, the “safety pins” were completely destroyed when fired, where is the “second stage”?
                        And réaction translated from French means opposition.

                        Perhaps it’s worth looking at a technical interpretation, a literal translation?
                        In conclusion, here is a scan of an article from the magazine REVUE MILITAIRE SUISSE for 1878 about double-action fuses - FUSEES A DOUBLE EFFET

                        Thanks for the article, but if I have a desire to learn something again about army fuses, I’ll probably start with H. Romberg “FUSÉE A DOUBLE EFFET”, 1868. hi
                      2. 0
                        April 21 2024 13: 37
                        Perhaps I will not agree with you.

                        It's like the joke about the nightgown - it won't change anything. Pertinacia was not approved by Thomas Aquinas. However, everyone is free in their choice.
                      3. 0
                        April 21 2024 14: 29
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        Pertinacia was not approved by Thomas Aquinas. However, everyone is free in their choice.

                        This is your problem, not Thomas Aquinas's. They speak of you as a technically competent person. So, you have a chance to refute the opinion of the French of that time, if of course there is a desire;
                        " Comme un mouvement, la réaction avance et recule successivement dans un double mouvement alternatif, réaction résultent du double mouvement.." drinks
                      4. +1
                        April 21 2024 14: 38
                        They speak of you as a technically competent person.

                        Thanks for the compliment.
                        It's your problem

                        I’ll tell you honestly - among all the problems facing me, the issue under consideration does not appear at all.
                      5. +1
                        April 21 2024 14: 53
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        thanks for the compliment

                        Thank you for the interesting discussion.
                        Sincerely.
    2. +2
      April 19 2024 14: 01
      You're welcome! Glad you liked it
  5. +3
    April 19 2024 12: 22
    V.I. Rdultovsky believed that the permissible percentage of fuze failures should not exceed 5%, and, probably, the technical imperfections he pointed out led to the fact that for Brink tubes this figure was slightly higher.

    There is not much that is not clear here; we need to look at the standards in force in Russia. At foreign factories there was a standard;
    " From a batch of 1000 fuses, thirty pieces are tested for safety when dropped, from three to ten for operation."
    Five percent is probably too much.
    1. +2
      April 19 2024 14: 01
      Quote: 27091965i
      Five percent is probably too much.

      It’s difficult to say, but I think that 3-10 per 1000 is quite difficult to consider as a representative sample
      1. +1
        April 19 2024 21: 11
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It’s difficult to say, but I think that 3-10 per 1000 is quite difficult to consider as a representative sample

        Well, why, if you look at today's AQL standards, a sample of 3 percent is quite satisfactory. Especially if it is destructive control.
  6. 0
    April 19 2024 15: 03
    It’s interesting, it’s a pity that for comparison they didn’t provide the design of a “double-acting tube. The latter were a variant of a spacer tube.”
    "I came to the conclusion that the Russian Imperial Navy had first-class 12-dm armor-piercing shells and fuses for them."
    A very important conclusion that refutes the widespread myth about the “bad” weapons of the RIF - the problem was not in the technology, but in the leadership... request
    “either the enemy’s consent and willingness to fight against them was required, or squadron speed,”
    Not at all, it required an understanding of the problem and the desire of Russian admirals! But they did not realize such opportunities (see the beginning of Tsushima) and did not try to create them by maneuver! The same VKB could try to cross to Mikasa who was catching up...
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 14: 54
      Quote: DrEng02
      "I came to the conclusion that the Russian Imperial Navy had first-class 12-dm armor-piercing shells and fuses for them."
      A very important conclusion that refutes the widespread myth about the “bad” weapons of the RIF - the problem was not in the technology, but in the leadership...


      By the time of the Russo-Japanese War, only the Americans had good armor-piercing shells, both heavy and with significant explosive charges of phlegmatized picric acid that exploded a 12-dm armor-piercing shell into more than 7 thousand fragments, and with delayed-action safety type fuses.

      For all other fleets of the world. “By the time of this war, the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing projectiles was far from being solved everywhere. Not only were research in the field of explosives capable of withstanding a blow to armor without explosion not completed, but even the shell shells themselves often did not satisfy the conditions for firing at armor, although They were quite expensive." (C) Rdultovsky

      The opinion of the author of the article on this issue contradicts the opinion of Rdultovsky. Of course, you can decide for yourself whose opinion on the issue is more authoritative.
  7. +2
    April 19 2024 19: 10
    "Double-action shock tube designed by Captain A. F. Brink." This is one of the historical options for naming this pipe, and it is quite legitimate to use it.
    No, it's not legal. The pipe has never been called that and never could be. Our ancestors had very specific terminology. Dual Action Tube - A tube with two actuation options, remote and impact. It replaced purely remote tubes.
    The correct name is "Double Pyroxylin Brink Shock Tube", also referred to as "Colonel Brink's Pyroxylin Double Primer Tube" or "Double Shock Tube". That's all.
    See the text of those times.
    1. +2
      April 19 2024 19: 17
      Quote: Andrey Tameev
      No, it's not legal. The pipe has never been called that and never could

      Well, it’s in vain that I referred to you. The name was taken from you in a discussion on Tsushima.
      The double pyroxylin shock tube was adopted in 1892 for high-explosive projectiles filled with pyroxylin. Other names for this fuse were also used - “Double-action shock tube designed by Captain A.F. Brink" and "Two-capsule fuse of Lieutenant General Brink, model 1896."


      1. +2
        April 19 2024 21: 14
        Apparently there was a mistake. 7 years have passed. Corrected.
        1. +1
          April 19 2024 22: 08
          Quote: Andrey Tameev
          Apparently there was a mistake

          Okay, everyone makes mistakes (me too), but what was on the scan? And yet I wonder why Vasiliev and Titushkin wrote the same way?
  8. 0
    April 19 2024 21: 22
    And where did the author get the last table - he managed to calculate it himself - and with such accuracy? - and for the Brink tube the moderator is not mentioned at all - therefore - an instantaneous fuse?
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 15: 17
      Brink's fuse was inertial. Instant fuses are all reaction fuses and all head fuses. Later, there were also head fuses with double impact action, which had a mechanism of both reactionary and inertial action that could be switched to one or another action of the fuse. But these are subtleties, by 1904-1905. Double impact fuses did not yet exist.

      In general, the Brink fuse was a two-capsule bottom impact fuse of inertial action with a structurally reduced sensitivity. There was no slowing mechanism in it. The whole bet was on NOT triggering the fuse against a thin barrier, and triggering it when the firing pin literally crushes the rifle primer with its flat tip when colliding with a thick barrier. After that, designed to work on the detonator capsule, accelerated by powder gases, a lightweight aluminum striker had to work very quickly, faster than steel strikers in fuses of a similar design.

      The Brink fuse was a normal (not delayed) action inertial fuse that was triggered only by a relatively thick and durable barrier. When dropped into water it did not work at all. When the projectile was buried in the ground, it went off almost immediately, the projectile did not bury itself and produced a relatively small crater, smaller than that of projectiles with other inertial fuses.
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 15: 50
        It would be better if they didn’t write such muddy stuff, they wouldn’t disgrace themselves laughing
        1. 0
          Yesterday, 16: 51
          Konstantin, can you write anything about the case? If not, then no. Compete in a special competition for the best knowledge of argumentum ad hominem with someone else.

          To get acquainted with what a fuse with a percussion mechanism of reaction (instantaneous) action is and why a fuse with such a mechanism is always the head one, I recommend:

          http://rufort.info/lib/tretyakov-g-m-boepripasyi-artillerii-1947/

          page 294-295
          1. 0
            Yesterday, 16: 54
            No, to think about it and put your brain in order, but no, you also recommend something to others
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 16: 58
              Kostya, looking at Brink’s bottom fuse, did you write “instantaneous fuse”? I explained to you why it is NOT instant. Moreover, I even provided you with a source explaining why instantaneous bottom impact fuses do not exist. You did not understand. Source You are too lazy to study.

              Thank you for your invaluable attention. Farewell.
              1. 0
                Yesterday, 17: 01
                Do you continue to explain something without listening to advice? tongue
  9. +3
    April 19 2024 21: 51
    Damn, I read the comments.... People, the point is not where the song is in the name of the handset or who called it what fool ! in this case, you are picking at each other's eyes in search of straws. lol
    The author of this cycle led you to a conclusion, but in fact no one read it.
    For how many years now we have been grinding down the reasons for the defeats in the RNV, and the author of this cycle gracefully led us to the fact that the weapon did not meet the changed conditions than those for which it was created.
    The armor-piercing shells of the Russian Imperial Navy did not play a noticeable role in the Russo-Japanese War, not because they were bad, but because our fleet was unable to provide the necessary conditions for their effective use, that is, convergence over short distances.

    Those. in fact, reality has moved ahead of expectations. The shells were bad - no, the shells exploded. The tubes were bad - no, and the tubes worked well for that time... So why did this happen? Yes, because the parties are fighting in the conditions in which each side allows them to fight. That is why there were no pistol distances of 15-20 kbt, when there would have been acceptable conditions for armor-piercing shells, and accuracy would have increased, which means the number of hits would have increased, which would have led to qualitative harm to the enemy. After all, we prepared and trained for such distances, even the combat doctrine was based on this.
    1. +2
      April 19 2024 22: 03
      I'll continue. But it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines. Distances increased, accuracy fell, at long distances the concept of “high speed - light projectile” no longer worked... But the high-explosive projectile was... ugh. That's all, this point is one of several that led to disastrous results. If the Japanese had allowed the Russians to shoot at 20 kbt, the result would have been different. But the essence of any battle is to prevent the enemy from playing by his rules and imposing his own. The yuppies succeeded, but we didn’t.
      Regarding this cycle, in principle, it’s clear to me, I won’t go into details about the correct names of the pipes, it won’t add to the mind, and I don’t want to play in the sandbox smile
      Plus it’s worth it, dear namesake, thank you for your work and I look forward to your further materials drinks good
      With deepest respect, I am hi
    2. +1
      April 19 2024 22: 03
      For how many years now we have been grinding down the reasons for the defeats in the RNV, and the author of this cycle gracefully led us to the fact that the weapon did not meet the changed conditions than those for which it was created.

      Come on!
      1. +2
        April 19 2024 22: 10
        Come on!

        Yes Yes smile In this case we are talking about shells. I’ve been sitting here for 10 years, 10 years, years of crap about the fact that our shells didn’t explode Yes request
        Although your sarcasm is understandable lol
        1. +1
          April 19 2024 22: 22
          It's not about sarcasm. I believe that some conceptual conclusions can only be drawn on the basis of objective information supported by facts. In this case, we have conceptual conclusions based on fortune telling on coffee grounds. Despite all this, the author has done a very large amount of work. But even the correct name for the remote tube remains a matter of debate. But we draw global conclusions. Bulgakov clearly knew something!
          1. +1
            April 20 2024 04: 40
            Quote: Dekabrist
            I believe that some conceptual conclusions can only be drawn on the basis of objective information supported by facts. In this case, we have conceptual conclusions based on fortune telling on coffee grounds.

            But here you are simply categorically wrong. Conceptual conclusions on armor penetration, quality of shells, etc. in the era of armor and steam, they were made precisely on empirical data. All armor penetration formulas that were used in those years are the essence of empiricism, the result of a statistical understanding of many experiments, and by no means “objective information confirmed by facts”
    3. +3
      April 19 2024 22: 10
      Quote: Rurikovich
      in this case, you are picking at each other's eyes in search of straws.

      Well, here's something interesting for anyone :)))) hi
      1. +1
        April 20 2024 12: 45
        You had an extremely interesting article on calculating the mass of explosives in a 305mm high-explosive projectile model 1894.
        Are you planning to release a sequel with calculations of explosive mass for steel armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of other calibers - 75, 120, 152, 203mm?
        This is unique content - no one else has these calculations...
    4. 0
      Yesterday, 16: 17
      Quote: Rurikovich
      For how many years now we have been grinding down the reasons for the defeats in the RNV, and the author of this cycle gracefully led us to the fact that the weapon did not meet the changed conditions than those for which it was created.


      What does the military department have to do with fuses 5DM, 11DM, tube arr. 1896 (only for projectiles with powder equipment) were better. But the military department slowed down with the introduction of melinite explosive charges for high-ballistic coastal guns, introducing them only for coastal mortars, of which apparently not a single enemy ship hit a single enemy ship during the entire Russo-Japanese War and slowed down with the introduction of at least some explosive charges for armor-piercing shells of high-ballistic coastal guns.

      For the calibers that deserved attention, the naval department had two “fuses,” so to speak, a very strangely designed Brink fuse that did NOT fire on a thin side (and most of the side area of ​​even an armored ship is a thin unarmored side), and a tube arr. 1894, also known as the “Baranovsky tube”, a bottom inertial fuse with normal sensitivity (triggered when dropped into water), but only for shells with powder explosive charges. Both fuses were poor in comparison with the 11DM fuse and the Military Department model 1896 tube, respectively.

      But the RIF Naval Artillery Corps had “its own pride” and, accordingly, its own poor fuses. And the GAU did not have pyroxylin charges for coastal artillery cannon shells. However, the naval ones also did not have a pyroxylin charge for the so-called “high-explosive” 12" projectile, they did not have time. However, there were no pyroxylin explosive charges for the 75 mm and 120 mm shells of the Kane guns.

      And yes, both the Naval Artillery Corps and the GAU knew very well that they needed real high-explosive shells with a high explosive mass of 7% of the projectile mass and higher, and they even did something, but... they didn’t have time.

      Also, in the RIF Naval Artillery Corps and in the GAU, from a year ago 1897-1898, they knew that pyroxylin was not suitable for equipping armor-piercing shells designed to penetrate “armor of modern qualities”, it bursts prematurely, but they were looking for some kind of phlegmatized high explosive to replace wet pyroxylin, but very slowly. For comparison, by 1901, two such explosives had already been found in the USA, “maximit” - picric acid phlegmatized with naphthalene, and “dunnit” - ammonium picrate.

      In general, the Japanese, who also by the time of the Russo-Japanese War did not have normal armor-piercing shells (British armor-piercing shells of that time with explosive charges of black powder frankly did not shine), but had relatively normal ones (if not for premature ruptures in the barrels, there would have been normal) high-explosive shells (and starting with the “destroyer” / “counter-destroyer” caliber 76 mm) with a large content of high explosives and the sensitive bottom inertial fuse Ijuina came to them and began the Russian Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army (without modern high explosive grenades in field artillery , without modern mountain guns, without modern field howitzers) to punish for technical backwardness and slowness in its elimination.

      And so they punished that the Russian army could not reduce at least one field battle to a draw, the fleet could NOT NOT lose in a single naval battle (and even any artillery battle of the light forces of the fleet that was reduced to at least a draw is somehow not remembered), and the Port Arthur fortress had to be surrendered (and for one half of Sakhalin at the US peace negotiations - and this was also a success of Russian diplomacy!).

      The conclusions are simple: “To slow down means falling behind. And the laggards are beaten. But we don’t want to be beaten. No, we don’t want to! The history of old Russia was, by the way, that it was constantly beaten for its backwardness. They were beaten by the Mongol khans. Turkish beks beat the Swedish feudal lords. They beat the Anglo-French capitalists. They beat everyone - for backwardness.

      But you, of course, can agree with the author of the article (and disagree with Rdultovsky), and consider that the RIF had armor-piercing shells and a fuse for them in 1904-1905. were good. But it’s just not at the combat distance at which we had to fight. Under the outdated combat distance from the times of brown artillery powder, NOT optical gun sights and measuring the distance to the target with manual Luzhol-Myakishev micrometers.

      https://rusneb.ru/catalog/000200_000018_RU_NLR_bibl_282730/?ysclid=lvxuc6q4k4216917021
  10. +2
    April 20 2024 12: 47
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Okay, everyone makes mistakes (me too), but what was on the scan? And yet I wonder why Vasiliev and Titushkin wrote the same way?

    I don’t know what was in the dead scan.
    Below is a scan from 1908. Everything is clear.
  11. 0
    Yesterday, 11: 13
    In a previous article I referred to this tube as the “Captain A. F. Brink Design Double Action Shock Tube.” This is one of the historical options for naming this pipe, and its use is quite legitimate. Unfortunately, this title has caused confusion among readers unfamiliar with the topic.


    I would like to clarify in which historical source you found the name “double-action shock tube designed by Captain A.F. Brink”

    The most comprehensive report on the actions of the War Ministry for 1896: “Double percussion pyroxylin tubes.” The most comprehensive report on the actions of the War Ministry for 1897: “Double-capsule percussion tubes for pyroxylin shells.” The most comprehensive report on the actions of the War Department for 1898. Applications: "Drum tubes: two-capsules for pyroxyl bombs." The most comprehensive report on the actions of the War Department for 1899. Applications. Again: “double-shock drums, for pyroxylin bombs.” The most comprehensive report on the actions of the War Ministry for 1900: “double-capsule percussion bombs for pyroxylin bombs.”

    And finally, the Most Compassionate Report on the actions of the War Ministry for 1908: “the ground strikes of Major General Brink.”

    Watch here:

    https://istmat.org/node/66431

    Just provide a historical source that would refer to a Brink tube as a “double-acting tube.”
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 14: 51
      Quote: AlexanderA
      I would like to clarify in which historical source you found the name “double-action shock tube designed by Captain A.F. Brink”

      This has already been answered above
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 17: 37
        Yes, I have already read all the comments. There is no historical source. Dear Andrey Tameev wrote that a Brink pipe has never been called that and could not be called that, and 7 years ago he was mistaken. But I’m sure that people will write about the “double action” of Brink tubes in the future. Not you, of course, but other authors. Referring to the works of Titushkin and Vasiliev. A good illustration of how historical myths can be born. Although in this case the myth about the historical naming of the Brink tube as a “double-action tube” is completely harmless.
        1. 0
          Yesterday, 18: 14
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Yes, I have already read all the comments. There is no historical source.

          Absolutely right. I have no
  12. 0
    Yesterday, 11: 28
    However, the essence of the mechanism of the lower part of the fuse remained the same - after the shot, cocking was carried out: the striker was released, but was held by the force of inertia in the bottom part of the tube.

    The presence of a coiled spring holding the inertial striker (which was present in fuses 5DM, 11DM, in the tube model 1896), but was absent in the Brink fuse and the tube model. 1894, did you consider the design difference to be insignificant?
    But then the differences began. In the tube arr. 1894, the drummer hit the detonator capsule, which, when exploding, transferred the energy of the explosion to the powder filling of the projectile.

    In the tube arr. 1894, the drummer hit the igniter primer. Tube arr. 1894, as well as the pipe arr. 1896 of the military department, were intended for shells with a powder explosive charge and there were no detonator caps. In the tube arr. In 1896, the military department had a gunpowder firecracker, which was “economically” dispensed with in the tube mod. 1894 Maritime Department.
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 14: 51
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The presence of a coiled spring holding the inertial striker (which was present in fuses 5DM, 11DM, in the tube model 1896), but was absent in the Brink fuse and the tube model. 1894, did you consider the design difference to be insignificant?

      Of course
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 17: 24
        I think it was in vain. In all GAU samples, including the sample completely based on the design of the bottom tube. 1883 bottom tube mod. 1896 The coiled safety spring was introduced.

        Your version that Brink used a “rifle” primer and a blunt firing pin in the design of its fuse only for the purpose of preventing the detonation of the projectile during storage on the ship does not agree with the fact that at the same time the ships had shells with bottom shock tubes mod. 1894 with a sharp striker sting and an artillery igniter primer more sensitive than the primer of a rifle cartridge. It turns out that there was no fear of shell explosions with these primitive bottom tubes if they were handled carelessly on ships.
        1. 0
          Yesterday, 18: 14
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Your version is that Brink used a “rifle” primer and a blunt firing pin in the design of its fuse only to prevent the detonation of the projectile when stored on a ship

          It only speaks of your inability to read the article.
          1. 0
            Yesterday, 23: 01
            Способен я читать. Я могу даже цитировать отдельные мысли из Вашей статьи. К примеру: "В силу вышесказанного, я не могу исключать того, что применение «винтовочного» капсюля и тупого бойка было введено лишь с целью исключения детонации снаряда при хранении на корабле."

            Вы не исключаете. Я, ссылаясь на конструкцию одновременно использовавшейся в корабельной артиллерии ударной трубки обр. 1894 г., исключил такой вариант. Хотя впрочем ударная трубка обр. 1894 г, при неосторожном обращении вызвать детонацию снаряда не могла, только взрыв. Порох "при нормальных условиях" не детонирует. Но это так, мелочи.

            Сознаюсь, несколько месяцев назад я тоже мог спутать капсюль-воспламенитель с капсюлем-детонатором, как Вы в статье применительно к трубке обр. 1894 г., но с тех пор я стал лучше разбираться во взрывателях.

            Это и позволяет мне замечать при прочтении Вашей статьи ошибки которых не заметили другие, возможно даже более способные её читатели.

            При этом отмечу что статья хорошая. В ней практически лучшее описание работы трубки Бринка которое есть в работах историков о русско-японской войне.

            Осталось только договориться что пороховая петарда это НЕ пороховой замедлитель и на этом взрыватель Бринка с исторической точки зрения можно "закрыть".

            https://studopedia.ru/3_3182_printsipi-ustroystva-i-deystviya-osnovnih-mehanizmov-kontaktnih-vzrivateley-mehanicheskogo-tipa.html

            " Простейшая огневая цепь взрывателя мгновенного действия состоит из накольного капсюля-детонатора и детонаторной шашки (взрыватели типа А. создающие детонационный начальный импульс) или из накольного капсюля-воспламенителя и пороховой петарды (взрыватели типа В, создающие огневой начальный импульс).

            [...]

            Во взрывателях замедленного действия передача огневого импульса от капсюля-воспламенителя в последующие элементы огневой цепи осуществляется с помощью замедлителей. Замедлительные устройства представляют собой запрессовки либо из обыкновенного пороха, либо из малогазовых составов. Время замедления определяется длиной запрессовки."

            https://cyberpedia.su/15xfe81.html

            "Детонационный импульс во взрывателях вырабатывает детонационная цепь, которая в общем случае состоит из капсюля-воспламенителя, порохового замедлителя, капсюля-детонатора, передаточного заряда и детонатора. Лучевой импульс трубок вырабатывается огневой цепью, состоящей из капсюля-воспламенителя, замедлителя и усилителя (петарды)"

            etc.
  13. 0
    Yesterday, 13: 18
    And it is not at all surprising that V.I. Rdultovsky in his “Historical sketch of the development of tubes and fuses from the beginning of their use to the end of the world war of 1914–1918.” indicated a fuse operating time of 0,005 s, which was the standard for a conventional impact inertial fuse that does not have a special deceleration.

    IN AND. Rdultovsky may have misled his reader. The burning rate of a black powder charge depends on how much the charge was compressed. Watch G.M. Tretyakov “Artillery Ammunition” Military Publishing House of the Ministry of the Armed Forces of the USSR, 1947 Part 2 “Tubes and Fuses” pp. 296-297

    The density of gunpowder pressed into “bushing 11” of the 11DM fuse is unknown. On the other hand, the designation “firecracker” is used for the powder charge of a Brink tube, which implies either a freely poured powder charge or a low compaction density. The fact that this powder charge was supposed to accelerate a lightweight aluminum firing pin indicates that Brink sought to accelerate the impact of the tip of this firing pin on the detonator capsule. Otherwise, he would have used a heavier and slower-accelerating steel striker, as, according to Rdultovsky, was done in the post-war version of the Brink fuse, which was produced after the end of the Russo-Japanese War.
    Nevertheless, the 11DM fuse provided an average deceleration of 0,005 s, while the Brink tube provided an order of magnitude more.

    This statement is extremely doubtful. To support this, your use of calculating the deceleration of a projectile using Jacob de Marr’s empirical formula is unlawful since the formula gives a calculated result close to the experimental one only if the thickness of the armor plate being penetrated is comparable to the caliber of the projectile, and you are in the article “Fuses of Russian naval artillery during the Russo-Japanese War. Tube mod. 1894" substituted 6-dm and 12-dm shells and 12 mm steel sheet into the formula, and what they got as a calculated difference in the speed of the projectile behind the sheet and in front of the sheet was not a result close to reality, but excuse the "weather on Mars" .

    In addition, the powder squib (the compaction density of the gunpowder in the illustration is low compared to the compaction density of the gunpowder in the 11DM fuse sleeve) and the lightweight aluminum firing pin in the Brink fuse indicate that the designer was trying to get the detonator cap to operate as quickly as possible in his fuse after the igniter primer worked.
    On the other hand, the features of the inertial part of the Brink fuse indicate that the designer deliberately repeatedly reduced the sensitivity of the inertial fuse so that it would not fire against thin barriers.
    Brink's design concept was as simple as a "Columbus egg." Its double-capsule fuse, unlike the double-capsule fuse 11DM von Gelfreich, does NOT fire on the thin side plating, but quickly (faster than the double-capsule fuse 11DM fires after the igniter is punctured) when the projectile hits a thicker barrier (for example, the slope of an armored deck) inside ship hull.

    The idea turned out to be “gloomy” and with the increase in the characteristic distance of artillery combat by the beginning of the 20th century, when it was no longer possible to target the vulnerable parts of the enemy ship, the ship itself would have failed.

    It is noteworthy that the RIF ships simply did not know how the Brink fuse worked. Features of its design, in particular, that the steel tip of the inertial striker is flat, the insensitive igniter primer is taken from a rifle cartridge, thus the sensitivity of the inertial part of the fuse is sharply reduced, and the speed of action of the fuse after successfully puncturing the rifle primer, on the contrary, is increased due to the powder firecracker with a low pressing density or even a loosely poured powder charge, and a lightweight aluminum striker quickly accelerated by powder gases - all this was not known to “ordinary” officers on naval ships. After all, these features were not described or illustrated anywhere in the literature accessible to “ordinary” people. Apparently this was a carefully kept secret of the Russian Imperial Navy. Otherwise, questions about such a design would have arisen even when the Brink fuse appeared on ships in the second half of the 1890s. But questions arose only in the summer of 1905.
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 14: 49
      Quote: AlexanderA
      This statement is extremely doubtful. To support this, your use of calculating the braking of a projectile using the empirical formula of Jacob de Marre is unlawful since the formula gives a calculated result close to the experimental one only if the thickness of the armor plate being penetrated is comparable to the caliber of the projectile

      Wrong.
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Brink's design concept was as simple as a "Columbus egg." Its double-capsule fuse, unlike the double-capsule fuse 11DM von Gelfreich, does NOT fire on the thin side plating, but quickly (faster than the double-capsule fuse 11DM fires after the igniter is punctured) when the projectile hits a thicker barrier (for example, the slope of an armored deck) inside ship hull.

      As can be seen from the trials of St. Andrew the First-Called, this is absolutely not the case.
  14. 0
    Yesterday, 13: 41
    There were, of course, cases when Russian shells pierced the spar or pipes of Japanese battleships without exploding, but a shell with a delay of 0,05 s should not have exploded upon such contact - it should have exploded after those same 0,05 s after contact . Let's say a 10-inch shell from the squadron battleship Pobeda, equipped with a fuse with a delay of 0,05 s, at a distance of 40 cables should have given a gap of 20 m behind a thin barrier.


    Can you cite at least one case when, during the Russo-Japanese War, a Russian shell exploded after flying 20 meters after breaking through the unarmored plating of a Japanese ship?

    For German fuses with a delay of ~0,05 sec at Jutland, such cases occurred.
    1. 0
      Yesterday, 14: 50
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Can you cite at least one case when, during the Russo-Japanese War, a Russian shell exploded after flying 20 meters after breaking through the unarmored plating of a Japanese ship?

      This is impossible for the simple reason that the projectile encounters other obstacles behind the skin.
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 21: 04
        Дайте ка я воспользуюсь послезнанием, чтобы понять что в отечественной корабельной и береговой артиллерии в 1904-1905 гг. было не так.

        Послезнание я извлеку из Л.Г. Гончаров "Курс морской тактики артиллерия и броня" 1932 г. издания.

        Согласно этому послезнанию РИФ в русско-японскую войну не стоило использовать бронебойные снарядов для корабельных пушек калибром до 6-дм включительно. Только настоящие фугасные с взрывателями мгновенного действия.

        Увы настоящих фугасных снарядов для пушек Канэ в русско-японскую войну у РИФ просто не было.

        Про русские 8-дм и 10-дм пушки можно просто не вспоминать, они не могли сыграть большой роли по причине своей малочисленности.

        Что же касается 12-дм пушек. Да, у русского флота был, как Вы выразились "первоклассный" 12-дм бронебойный снаряд "и взрыватель к нему". И этот снаряд, или его менее первоклассный "фугасный" собрат даже несколько раз продемонстрировал что на характерных дистанциях боя он способен в целом виде пройти за 6-дм бронеплиту. Вот только этот снаряд (или его "фугасный" собрат) за всю войну ни разу не продемонстрировал что способен разорваться длаее чем в 3 метрах за 6-дм бортовой бронеплитой и при разрыве пробить самыми тяжелыми своими осколками броневую палубу или её скос.

        а) трубка русского 12-дм снаряда, будь это трубка обр. 1894 г. или двухкапсюльная трубка Бринка обр. 1896 г. НЕ давала достаточного замедления для того чтобы пробив 6-дм бортовую бронеплиту снаряд мог поразить погреба, машины, котлы. Может быть трубка Бринка и была первоклассной для середины 1890-х годов, но для 1904-1905 гг. она таковой уже не была.

        б) разрывной заряд русского 12-дм снаряда был слишком слаб чтобы дать такое приращение радиальной скорости своим самым тяжелым осколкам, которое бы обеспечило им способность пробить броневую палубу или её скос. Следовательно к 1904 г. это был уже не первоклассный разрывной заряд.

        А настоящего 12-дм фугасного снаряда у РИФ как известно не было, лишь два бронебойных, первый с первоклассным корпусом, НЕ первоклассным, очень малым разрывным зарядом и НЕ первоклассным двухкапсюльным взрывателем Бринка, и второй со второклассным корпусом, однозначно второклассным разрывным зарядом бездымного пороха и второклассной трубкой обр. 1894 года.

        Не удивительно что противник, который уже обзавёлся первоклассными фугасными снарядами, пусть и склонными к разрывам ещё в стволах крупнокалиберных орудий, разгромил РИФ в артиллерийских боях.

        Особенно успешно у противника это получилось в артиллерийском бою эскадр при Цусиме, когда он по результатам боя в Желтом море понял что на большой дистанции он решительного результата точно не достигнет, и сделал ставку на среднюю дистанцию, на которой воспользовался своим преимуществом в 6-дм скорострельной и 8-дм артиллерии и в фугасных снарядах этих калибров.