What if instead of a rocket you put a drone in the pipe?

73
What if instead of a rocket you put a drone in the pipe?

Attacks drones on warships have recently appeared frequently in the news, ushering in what may be a new era of naval warfare that even the world's most powerful navies do not seem prepared to fully confront on a large scale. At least, the NATO fleet is clearly (in the next article the other day!) losing to the Houthis, and in full.

In and around the Red Sea, the Houthis' constant air attacks by drones on ships, including surface combatants of the United States and its allies, cannot but be considered successful. At least several ships from different countries have already “gone home” because they cannot continue to serve. But more on that later.



But also in the Black Sea, we have witnessed the successful use of BEC - unmanned boats, relatively inexpensive unmanned systems, the use of which in a maritime context is usually viewed through the prism of their threat to warships. And they showed that they can create these very problems for very real warships.

It was funny, many called the BEC “torpedoes for beggars,” but that’s actually what happened: yes, this “torpedo” does not require a submarine, and everything is much simpler and cheaper. And the damage... well, no worse.

But the potential to use lower-class drones for the same warships, both defensively and offensively, is perhaps just as important.

While the understanding of what is happening in the Black and Red Seas is just beginning, how the whole concept of using modern weapons, and it changes simply catastrophically quickly and just as dramatically.

However, those who have already experienced BEC and UAV attacks are already beginning to think about the need to develop strategies and tactics to counter new adversaries. Various options are already being considered in a number of countries, but not everything is as simple as the developers would like.

If we talk about ships, they (with the exception of aircraft carriers) are not made of rubber. With very limited additional space and no current way to reload Vertical Launch System (VLS) cells at sea on American ships, the weapon mix and ammunition size aboard America's surface combatants, both present and future, are being greatly re-evaluated already. Today.

And here everything is very reasonable: having already received several times from the Houthis, the Americans were the first to rush into development, because everything is transparent here: we need to protect our ships, and no one minds making extra money by retrofitting them.

This, you know, is not to order machine guns to be installed on all ships, this is a different approach.

Here it is clear that theoretically it would be nice to add more very expensive, complex and highly effective missiles, the question is - will this be beneficial? Another possible development of events is when, instead of large and medium-sized missiles, the launch tubes will be filled with much smaller and cheaper aerial drones, such drones-interceptors for other drones or, what a monk jokes, BEC. This is much more feasible and could greatly enhance the combat capabilities of a modern warship.


Removing a spent cassette from the destroyer's vertical launch system aboard the destroyer Benfold. And behind the UVP there is a very important system, which will be discussed below

One could even argue that, at the very least, arming surface ships with drone clusters has become as relevant as stuffing more missiles into launchers. What is meant here is to enable surface combatants to quickly launch anything from a single drone to swarms of inexpensive but effective drones that can fly a fair distance or stay aloft for hours. This hides a very significant difference with missiles, which, excuse me, are really disposable: no one will return them back. But the drone can be returned and reused.

Yes, numerous recent events have given planners in many countries, including the US Navy, a lot to think about. The war in Ukraine, and especially the use of unmanned surface ships in this conflict, as well as the potential looming battle in the vast Pacific with China, which is constantly discussed in the United States, are just two reasons to think about it. And there are much more of them.

Well, the ongoing crisis off the coast of Yemen, during which commercial and military ships have been repeatedly attacked using drones and cruise missiles, and anti-ship ballistic missiles were used for the first time, is perhaps of the greatest interest.

This is a much more geographically compact threat than the one the US Navy all plans to face in the Pacific against China. As of mid-February, US surface combatants had fired more than 100 Standard missiles (SM-2 and SM-6) and likely other types in excess of that number against Houthi weapons. Now this number is noticeably higher, because the war, which is not really a war, continues. And here financial and logistical difficulties arise, because replenishment of these weapons becomes a certain problem.

Both far and expensive!


And inexpensive, single-use attack drones are several times cheaper than anti-ship missiles, but can still pose a serious danger to ships. Not only can these UAVs be able to hit ships, but on top of that, they can also take on the precious interceptor missiles fired from these ships for defense. And here is a case where the prices of the target and the interceptor are simply incomparable.

On the other hand, let's put it this way: if a US Navy ship wants to hit a small target at a long distance, its only option currently is to launch the BGM-109 Tomahawk or SM-6 cruise missile, which is optional on some ships fleet USA. But, in fact, the Ax is the only long-range weapon.


The Ax is not a cheap weapon, starting from a million dollars apiece, in addition, although some Tomahawk variants can pursue and hit naval targets, along with the RGM-84 Harpoon, which, it is worth noting, has a very limited range. Adding long-range loitering strike munitions to any ship's arsenal can completely change the balance of power.


In general, a lot has already been said about the use of UAVs in the armament complex of a warship: this includes reconnaissance, search and rescue operations, and work as communications or radar image repeaters. That is, everything for which helicopters, which are very expensive per hour of work, are lifted into the sky. Here, there is practically the same set of tasks, only it costs less and does not expose the crews to risks.

This is especially useful in areas where a helicopter can easily get hit by a missile and stop performing its mission. On top of that, many drones can be in many places at the same time. There can only be one helicopter, and not every ship can carry and control several helicopters.

MQ-8C Fire Scout unmanned aerial vehicle and MH-60S Sea Hawk helicopter perform simultaneous flights

Adding dozens of small, long-range drones to surface combatants could also greatly enhance their defensive, communications and electronics capabilities.

But, naturally, in this matter, as in any other, there are nuances. And we’ll talk about them now.

How to push in something that cannot be pushed in?


Surface combat ships are not cruise ships; every kilogram of displacement and cubic decimeter of space is worth its weight in gold. And no matter how hard you try, finding a place for a new weapon is very difficult.

If we take American ships, then the lack of space for new large weapons has already become the talk of the town. Vertical launch systems (VLS) are an extremely valuable asset aboard the U.S. Navy's Arleigh Burke-class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class cruisers, as well as the Zumwalt-class destroyers and future Constellation-class frigates. But inventing a place for something else is almost impossible.

Moreover, adding more large weapons in the form of additional traditional VLS cells to the existing US surface combat fleet does not seem feasible either. And the practice of NATO ships in the Red Sea has already shown that there simply cannot be too many anti-aircraft missiles. There weren't even enough of them there.

There is an option for reinforcement in the form of installing box-shaped launchers on the deck, but they take up a lot of space and add weight, operating with a fairly small number of additional missiles. The game, as they say, is not worth the candle.


Checking the MK 41 vertical launch system

But the same cannot be said about disposable and, especially, reusable drones with a range of hundreds of kilometers or so. Drones capable of long-term patrolling in a certain area are a reality today and many of them easily use a common launch tube (CLT) or similar system that can be installed on almost anything - from buggies to helicopters and strategic drones.

So, is the vertical launch pipe our (and not our) everything? Yes, these tubes can launch different types of unmanned aerial vehicles, equipped for different missions - some carrying a warhead, some carrying an electro-optical payload, others carrying electronic warfare, electronic surveillance or communications relay systems.

Unmanned aerial vehicles with these different configurations can be tightly packed together in VLS salvo packages. The packages can be made armored, which makes it easier to place them almost anywhere on the deck where there is free space, of any size and shape.


The Altius drone was launched from a buggy-mounted CLT at full speed


Launch tubes inside a helicopter


CLT array on board the MC-130J

This means that a US or any other destroyer can quickly be equipped with dozens of drones capable of carrying out multiple missions, without refitting or huge costs. These additions can be placed wherever there is space and do not need to be combined into one weapon system. The headache will be exclusively for the deck crew, who will begin equipping the launch tubes with packages.

For example, a pack of 12 drones could be placed on the bow, another of 24 drones could be placed in an open area behind the vertical launch system array, and two packs of 36 drones could be placed on each side of the midship superstructure. Smaller packages containing less than a dozen drones could even be suspended from a ship's superstructure.

The configuration options are truly extensive. This can be a fairly flexible concept that can evolve over time. Alternatively, additional drones, packaged in standardized launch tubes as individual "shells", could be stored in the ship's armory and reloaded as needed by the crew, thus requiring fewer drones at the ready. Even one pack or pair, plus additional ones pre-loaded into tubes at the base, can handle most tasks, including launching a swarm of drones. Larger swarms can be launched after reloading the box launchers.


Box launchers for small fixed-wing unmanned aerial vehicles are not something out of the ordinary. This is a concept from AeroVironment showing their Switchblade drone being launched from one of these.

Drones in launch tubes can also be packed in large quantities into a special container, similar to a missile shipping container, and placed on board any support ship. This could give support ships in any fleet the ability to launch drones and then transfer control to operators located on other ships.

This modular concept could make any ship with enough deck space a multi-mission mothership for transporting and launching drones in staggering numbers.

Ready, but not ready to work


Using an off-the-shelf drone system like the Altius 600, which can fly for four hours and range around 400 km, makes sense, including financial ones. The cost will only come down as more and more aircraft are purchased by the various services, naturally driving the development of new Altius variants, some with much longer ranges and others further optimized for payload, such as the powerful, but the longer-range Altius 700M.

The Altius family of drones are just examples of an increasingly diverse market; in fact, there are no problems with offerings from manufacturers today, from the famous Raytheon (RTX) and AeroVironment to those that have only recently crept into the market. The main thing here is to more or less make the very concept of an armored transport and launch container for drones universal.

There’s nothing new in principle; there’s something about the idea of ​​loading a ship onto a ship, already filled with drones to perform a specific task. And if you make this launcher rechargeable during the process (and why not do that?), then you can easily and naturally configure the flying herd to perform certain tasks.

Just as a magazine for a machine gun is filled with different cartridges, so in our case, the launcher can be loaded with several types of drones: repeater, strikers, interceptors. As an option.

The concept of some kind of armored box launcher, where the lid is simply opened and drones are launched vertically from their interchangeable tubes, is interesting in that different types from different manufacturers, and even those that use different tube diameters, can be easily added as needed. I replaced the pipe with the desired drone - and forward, to the remote control.


RTX's Coyote drone launched during testing

But this is clearly not all. A possible alternative to a box launcher would be to use the VLS cells themselves to launch drones. In general, theoretically this is quite feasible: the Mk 41 VLS cell is about 8 meters long, so 6-7 drones can easily be placed in length in their tubes, even taking into account the presence of some kind of separation gaskets. After all, missiles are packed in bundles, why are drones any worse? Well, only because they are more fragile.

Considering how missiles are inserted, drones can be stuffed in the same way, which means that four pipes and 20-24 drones can fit into one cell. If you use four cells out of 96 on the same Arleigh Burke Flight II, excuse me, that’s almost a hundred drones! Here's a swarm for you...


Mk 41 VLS cell configuration and armament. Lockheed Martin graphics

At the same time, this would take away valuable cells from much larger and more powerful weapons, and maintaining or replacing drones with such a design would be more problematic compared to a simple box launcher. Problems with one drone in a stack can also prevent others from launching. On the other hand, vertically packing small drones into a VLS cell is a very promising idea that would only require modification to the innermost cell/container and could be attractive to ships that already have VLS arrays installed. Drones can be added as needed, with the cell easily taking on a conventional missile payload.

A drone for all occasions


Again, drones can be used for strikes, surveillance, electronic attack and communications relay, as well as serving as decoys. And I am sure that the time is not far off when drones will become the best weapon against drones, since spending a missile that costs 10 times more to intercept a drone that costs $000 does not seem very logical. But they spend it today, so there is something to think about for tomorrow.

Separately about drone repeaters. A very useful thing, especially when there are no satellites to control the herd of drones from the ship. Such situations may, may happen.
The relay portion of communications is important because using one drone as an aerial relay means that other drones can communicate directly with the ship over long distances without the use of a more advanced aerial relay platform or satellite communications, which could become vulnerable to enemy attack.

Multiple relay drones in a chain can operate over long distances to maintain communications with drones and other systems located at significant distances from the ship. A network of relay drones can be very useful in coordinating anti-submarine searches, and there is another advantage, but it is only useful for NATO: the creation of an alternative communications network when the main systems are suppressed.

Why for NATO? Well, in general, everything is simple: Russia has Murmansk, which is capable of playing havoc with communications in the Atlantic, but NATO does not have such a nightmare.


In general, it seems that drones will soon gain such a high degree of autonomy that they will be able to choose their own targets under certain circumstances independently. Moreover, even without communication with the command center. Of course, this is a moral question, how effectively a UAV can distinguish a military target from a civilian one, but do modern cameras distinguish people from birds, for example?

If you add up these different capabilities, when some drones can engage in reconnaissance, others can destroy targets, others can provide communications, and others can jam enemy air defenses, one can imagine how potentially effective UAVs launched from ships can be. This is all without cooperative swarming. Once swarming becomes available, once drones are able to communicate and coordinate operations with each other with some autonomy and dynamically respond to their environment, we are talking about a whole new level of unmanned warfare that is surely coming soon.

In fact, the era of unmanned carriers is not so far away.

A surface combatant could field its own swarm of unmanned aerial vehicles, which would create a network in the air capable of searching wide areas of the ocean for things like enemy ships and submarines or downed aircraft crews. This information can then be transmitted back to the ship in real time, and from there the data can be sent anywhere, at the disposal of any services. If a hostile target was detected, the decision could then be made to attack it using a drone as part of a swarm, or by launching a weapon from a ship or other platform in the theater of operations. And again, drones will be able to “illuminate” the target and provide additional guidance on it with the same laser. Again - painless in terms of losses from enemy opposition.

And the swarm, the swarm is also inherently very stable! If several drones are lost, the swarm will automatically optimize to make the most of any drones still active. With a higher level of autonomy, a swarm can confuse, overwhelm and disrupt an enemy's decision cycle by overcoming its defenses in multiple ways before the enemy can fully react and overwhelm/destroy it.

A highly resilient swarm operating over a wide area will be critical to success in future naval combat.

Death by an ax or a thousand cuts?


A good question, because a UAV is not yet capable of picking up and delivering a warhead to a target, like an anti-ship missile. But this does not mean at all that UAVs are safe for large ships. Yes, they are unlikely to sink a ship or even damage it beyond repair if used in small quantities. However, let’s consider this scenario: damage to critical sensors (radar and communications antennas, for example), communications and engineering components of the ship. Not only will the equipment necessary in battle be disabled, but also part of the crew will be diverted to deal with the damage and consequences.

There is no need to focus too much on the targeted disabling of radar antennas - a ship without them will be blind and deaf, unable to move and control its weapons. The question is how to withdraw and what, nothing more.

Further, when used in large numbers, drones, whether swarming or not, can deplete a ship's defensive arsenal by attacking from multiple directions. Close-in weapon systems can quickly run out of ammunition and need to be reloaded, weakening the ship's last line of defense and thus making the ship more vulnerable.


Even American and allied warships confronting Houthi drones have had to use close-in weapons systems to shoot them down. This is a fact that cannot be avoided.

In general, this is not a very pleasant prospect: UAVs, which already do not see radars very well, destroy the radar, leaving the ship practically defenseless against anti-ship missiles. And here we can already say that the ship will not have many chances to survive.

What emerges is a new format of naval combat: first, a cloud of drones is sent, which discharge the ship’s air defense to the maximum and disable its systems.


Now sending a flock of dozens of drones after a ship, from which you need to defend yourself, can become a reality, but defense is an impossible task, since the ship’s defensive system will be overloaded, and ammunition tends to run out. Given the number of drones that could be deployed, a ship might be able to easily defend itself against a limited number of drones, but attacking from multiple directions at the same time is a different matter entirely. story, especially since some of the drones can be used as electronic warfare platforms and decoys, which will further complicate the ship's defense.

One anti-ship missile costing $2 million could be neutralized by one anti-ship missile or even a decoy, but doing the same with 40 drones for the same total cost would be much more difficult, especially when they can be programmed specifically to attack in such a way as to exploit weak ones. places in the ship's defensive capabilities. Add to this the swarm component, where drones work together autonomously in real time, and defending against them only becomes more difficult. And not every ship has such a number of missiles in its launchers.

When an anti-ship swarm is used in combination with a layered attack, when the strike is carried out not only by UAVs, but also by cruise missiles and even ballistic missiles, it can become a serious problem not only for one of the enemy's most advanced warships, but also for an entire flotilla. In other words, drones can provide combat mass: a dynamic quantity problem that must be solved by the ballistic computers of the target ship, allowing more effective weapons to have even greater impact.


Arleigh Burke-class destroyer uses SAM

So yes, we are talking about a very problematic potential that has so far been chronically underestimated. Warships are much better equipped to fight advanced anti-ship cruise missiles than they are to fight swarms of relatively small drones.

Drone Defense with Drones


Yes! Moreover, not only from airborne ones! Working to counter attacks by small unmanned boats (UECs) loaded with explosives is also a key capability that the ship's aerial drone inventory can offer. They can patrol in close proximity to a ship for hours and quickly identify and engage any approaching enemy surface threat with pinpoint accuracy. Their management can be integrated into the Aegis combat system to best distribute their attacks based on the most pressing threats.

Some warships are equipped with AGM-114 Hellfire vertical launch missiles to combat small boats. But these missiles are much less flexible and have much shorter range than the drones we are discussing here. Again, the missile can only be used once the target has already been detected. The rocket cannot “hang and watch.”

But some of the UAVs can be equipped with millimeter-wave radar homing heads, similar to those used by Hellfire for this application, with real-time target assignment data linked to them. This way, drones even have some advantage over Hellfire.


The AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire missile is launched from a surface-to-surface missile module on board the USS Montgomery (LCS-8) ​​Independence variant

Finally, shipborne drones can work to defend against similar lower-class unmanned aerial vehicles by tracking them down and destroying them kinetically or through electronic attacks. As we said a long time ago, the best defense against drones, at least in some cases, is other drones. That is, the times when, instead of a helicopter patrol, a patrol of mixed UAVs will fly at a distance from the ship - they are already on the threshold.

Understanding what small surface and air threats exist beyond a ship's radar horizon is challenging. Sending drones to search for hours beyond that horizon would provide early warning of such threats in high-risk areas, and they could even eliminate threats before they pose a threat to the ship.

Well, you already understand what risky situations we are talking about.


Bottom line: Unmanned aerial vehicles can greatly help ships destroy enemy drones (both sea and airborne) at a much lower cost, without spending millions of dollars on interceptor missiles or allowing a drone to get so close to a ship that it would require the use of artillery systems.

Currently, there is a gap in the protection of ships, as clearly demonstrated by events in the Red and Black Seas. And this gap needs to be eliminated, and not by installing anachronisms such as additional machine guns with shooters and without radar guidance.
Yes, multimillion-dollar missiles are still critical to fighting aerial targets, but small unmanned aerial vehicles, and eventually the ability to deploy them in large cooperative swarms, will become as important in many ways as these multimillion-dollar missiles, whether the naval command likes it or not.

The question is who will solve this problem faster and what drones will they put into their vertical launch cells on warships.

* Based on reviews in American and European media: The Drive, The National Interest, The Telegraph, Die Welt.
73 comments
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  1. +6
    April 15 2024 05: 06
    It was funny, many called BEC “torpedoes for beggars”
    I remember that submarines were once called “weapons of beggars.” And they looked at drones with a nasty grin, like they were products from AliExpress wink
    1. +1
      April 15 2024 07: 05
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      It was funny, many called BEC “torpedoes for beggars”

      Maybe not for the poor, but against the poor - without a doubt.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +4
        April 15 2024 10: 18
        "The Haberdasher and the Cardinal", Roman Skomorokhov and military science is power!!!
        1. kig
          -1
          April 15 2024 23: 36
          Roman Skomorokhov and military science is power

          What does it have to do with it, it’s said: based on reviews.
  2. +3
    April 15 2024 05: 08
    Mdaaa what, new trends of the times require new approaches to waging war on sea and land... are our admirals and generals at headquarters ready for this?
    How to reformat the minds of people stuck in the 20th century. request
    The capabilities of technology have increased many times over compared to the last century, but the thinking of strategists at headquarters does not keep up with this... this has always been the case.
    A striking example of the Black Sea Fleet, which suffered significant losses at the beginning of the Northern Military District, is an example of this.
    But I hope the Black Sea Fleet command will still turn the situation on the Black Sea in favor of Russia.
    1. +3
      April 15 2024 13: 40
      How to reformat the minds of people stuck in the 20th century.

      What part of the 20th century are they stuck in? In 1992, when all around was peace, friendship, chewing gum? I think even the most worthless admiral of the Russian Empire would have figured out how to deal with enemy unmanned destroyers and would not have sent the large landing craft on a solo voyage, and would not have ignored reports that enemy boats were gathering at sea. The leadership of the Black Sea Fleet is the most worthless in the entire history of the country since the time of Prince Igor, they have nothing to write down as an asset at all
      1. +1
        April 15 2024 20: 51
        Well, the Black Sea Fleet (since the time of Ushakov_alas) is famous for its self-floodings (as many as two) and fatal losses (in the first case, backlashes in 1941-1944, and in the second NWO (Ukraine + NATO IS POWER!!!)... and some noticeable changes so far ( SO far Karl) has not been noted.. well, is there (or not) in the bowels of the headquarters of the new Fedor Ushakov (well, at least Rozhdestvensky) this is a question of questions...
        1. kig
          0
          April 15 2024 23: 43
          Well, at least Rozhdestvensky

          For some reason I don’t remember an admiral with that last name...who are you talking about?
        2. 0
          April 16 2024 13: 59
          The Black Sea Fleet definitely fought in both world wars and inflicted damage on the enemy; in World War I, Istanbul had big problems with supplies. It didn’t shine, yes, but it fought and paid off the costs of fuel and construction. Now the Black Sea Fleet is playing the role of a whipping boy, the admirals have everything out of their hands, they can’t do anything
    2. kig
      0
      April 15 2024 23: 37
      How to reformat the minds of people stuck in the 20th century.

      Yes, in general, everything was planned ineptly
  3. 0
    April 15 2024 07: 43
    The return of attack drones is as unsafe as for missiles. For a quick reaction in strike drones, the warhead is activated after launch, and for the drone to return, the warhead must be deactivated. This is where you can expect trouble. What if the warhead is formally deactivated? The deactivation signal was received, the system sent it to the warhead, received the response “deactivated” from it, but in fact the fuse remained armed. How can you reliably determine that a drone can be returned without putting the ship and crew at risk?
  4. -1
    April 15 2024 08: 57
    The modern concept of warships itself is flawed. Made in the form of relatively small aluminum boxes filled with expensive, delicate and undisguised electronics... Their combat survivability is practically zero.

    Well, what kind of threat could drones of all stripes pose, and most modern anti-ship missiles, say, Seydlitz, Barham, or God forbid, Yamato? Capable of surviving several hits from armor-piercing shells weighing a ton?
    1. +1
      April 15 2024 09: 56
      And check for yourself what damage anti-ship missiles can cause. Find the Yamato and shoot. And at the same time, think about what a useless “fool” it will be - a 20th century dreadnought in the era of missile weapons.
      1. 0
        April 15 2024 09: 59
        Well, what kind of manner is it to write nonsense early in the morning?

        An aircraft carrier weighing 100 thousand tons is a very useful and formidable thing to this day, and its armored missile carrier is a useless fool... But the duralumin pelvis is what you need. Ugh.
      2. +3
        April 15 2024 11: 17
        He would have been drowned by aircraft. Exactly the same as in 1945 it was in reality.
        The Japanese themselves laughed at him
        “There are three of the biggest and most useless things in the world - the Egyptian pyramids, the Great Wall of China and the battleship Yamato.”
        1. 0
          April 15 2024 20: 57
          there was no air defense on the Yamato... but on the US NAVY explosives it was not so sad (at least they intercepted kamikaze waves (by 70-80%)... but the amers’ deck ships were not prepared for such losses and were torn apart the first wave of Yamato would have every chance of reaching Okinawa... but this is from the realm of IF... if grandma had wheels then... grandma would be a bicycle...
          1. +1
            April 16 2024 00: 04
            At the time of drowning, Yamato had 24 127/40 anti-aircraft guns and 156 25 mm anti-aircraft guns.
            There was a clear bias in the MZA, and the Type 96 was clearly outdated by the end of the war.
    2. +5
      April 15 2024 10: 47
      Quote: paul3390
      Well, what kind of threat could drones of all stripes pose, and most modern anti-ship missiles, say, Seydlitz, Barham, or God forbid, Yamato? Capable of surviving several hits from armor-piercing shells weighing a ton?

      You have made the first mistake of an alternativeist: one side is alternative, everything else develops according to RI.
      If there were armored ships, most modern anti-ship missiles simply would not exist. Instead of them there would be either Soviet monsters, or something like LRASM with an after-acceleration unit for warheads and seekers with a choice of target locations. In general, the equivalent of a 14" projectile flying into the deck at a speed of 400-500 m/s, and aimed precisely at the ship's high-pressure core.
      1. -1
        April 15 2024 12: 17
        If there were armored ships, most modern anti-ship missiles simply would not exist

        I agree,
        even ceramic armor is only 100 mm silicon carbide
        withstands hits from 155-mm shells, subsonic anti-ship missiles Harpoon, Uran, Norwegian NSM
        and even BEC with warheads from FAB-500 to FAB-1500
        for example, with additional reservation with ceramics:
        MRK Karakurt + 1400 sq.m, this is + 300 tons to VI 800 tons
        Corvette pr. 22380 required 2400 sq.m + 500 tons to VI 1800 tons
        Fregat pr. 22350 additional reservation 5000 sq.m. + 1000 tons to VI 5500 tons
        ceramic plates 55 mm thick are mass-produced for our Tiger, Typhoon, BMP-3 armored fighting vehicles
        2 55 mm plates = 110 mm steel equivalent to 440 mm from armor-piercing shells and landmines
      2. 0
        April 15 2024 17: 58
        Well, initially Soviet monsters appeared, X-22 and Yamato would have been knocked out. Therefore, they decided that if there is no difference, then why pay more, and limited themselves to protection in the form of electronic warfare and air defense.
        I wonder if tanks will follow this path, since the FPV drone doesn’t care, there are a lot of them and it will find a weak point? Instead of shells, they will carry a hundred drones in a BMP-3 body, and use them to shoot down other drones...
        1. 0
          April 15 2024 20: 58
          and against kinetic anti-tank weapons (well, like our 100 mm Rapier) what???
          1. 0
            April 16 2024 00: 07
            and against kinetic means of PTO

            perhaps we are talking about the fact that the tanks will not go to direct fire, but will operate from shelters
            Instead of shells, they will carry a hundred drones in a BMP-3 body
          2. 0
            April 16 2024 14: 02
            And against such weapons, we install an armata engine on a tank weighing as much as an infantry fighting vehicle, and thanks to the radar and AI, it jumps out of the firing sector at a speed of 150 km/h
    3. +2
      April 15 2024 11: 28
      The modern concept of warships itself is flawed. Made in the form of relatively small aluminum boxes
      The concept of modern ships does not provide for naval artillery battles, as was once the case with battleships. Bulletproof armor is enough for them
      1. -3
        April 15 2024 12: 45
        Actually, according to the project of the destroyer Leader, ceramic armoring of the hull and superstructure was provided, as well as art installation of 152 mm
        and after the SVO experience on the Black Sea, the reservation will return to the ships
        Moreover, thick ceramics are stronger than steel, they do not burst, they only crumble
        and weighs less than steel
        100 mm silicon carbide 1 sq.m. weighs 200-250 kg, and armor steel 750 kg
        equivalent in steel as 400 mm
        and 100 mm boron carbide is already 100-120 kg per 1 sq.m and has the equivalent against armor-piercing shells in 800 mm armor steel
        there is no need for full anti-torpedo protection from 3 adjacent compartments
        torpedoes, BEC, landmines up to FAB-1500 caliber will not be scary
      2. 0
        April 15 2024 16: 46
        Bulletproof armor is enough for them

        Do you think that it will at least somehow help when hit by even a not very large anti-ship missile like the X-35???
        1. +2
          April 15 2024 16: 52
          Do you think that it will at least somehow help when hit by even a not very large anti-ship missile like the X-35???
          If it hits, it won't help, but she needs to hit it first.
    4. +2
      April 15 2024 12: 01
      Quote: paul3390
      Well, what kind of threat could drones of all stripes pose, and most modern anti-ship missiles, say, Seydlitz, Barham, or God forbid, Yamato?

      Lethal. The same “Roma” was destroyed by as many as two FX-1400s. From the perspective of today - a primitive prototype of an anti-ship missile with a firing range of 5 km and a warhead with 320 kg of explosives
      1. -2
        April 15 2024 12: 20
        Hi Andrew,
        if our MRKs, corvettes, frigates are armored with spaced ceramic armor even at 100 mm
        this will be enough from high-explosive warheads with 320 kg of subsonic anti-ship missiles
        for example, MRK pr. 22800 75 + 75 + 11 x 7 = 1127 sq.m. side protection
        superstructure 40 + 40 + 10 + 10 x 5 = 500 sq.m. superstructure protection
        total 1627 sq.m. x 100 mm silicon carbide plates x 200 kg per sq.m.
        = 325 tons to VI 800 tons = 1125 tons
        1. +4
          April 15 2024 12: 56
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          if our MRKs, corvettes, frigates are armored with spaced ceramic armor even at 100 mm
          this will be enough from high-explosive warheads with 320 kg of subsonic anti-ship missiles

          Roman, the FX-1400 easily holed the battleship Roma from top to bottom, exploding in the water under the keel, and it had 150 mm of armor on a 12 mm lining, not counting the steel decks, double sides, etc.
          1. 0
            April 15 2024 13: 00
            I meant the transfer to our reality and the protection of the onboard projection of ships
            against diving UPAB, anti-ship missiles, FAB
            we have the Pantsir air defense system, the Redut air defense system
            but from a BEC with a warhead in the form of a FAB-500 or FAB-1500, only PTZ in the form of adjacent compartments and additional ones will save you. reservation - steel is a large mass
            ceramics remains
            1. +4
              April 15 2024 13: 04
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              against diving UPAB, anti-ship missiles, FAB
              we have the Pantsir air defense system, the Redut air defense system

              Firstly, they are also available against attackers on board. Secondly, any reservation WILL REDUCE the number of air defense missile systems and air defense systems that can be placed on the ship. Thirdly, the anti-ship missile attacking on board has a speed higher than that of the FX-1400, since the latter had a maximum of 800 km/h
              1. 0
                April 15 2024 13: 17
                OK,
                that is, we need a new project, for example a frigate with a smaller spacing of frames
                for external placement of 100-200 mm ceramic armor plates
                which in theory will not lead to a break in the side from a subsonic anti-ship missile
                and 100-200 mm armored ceramics will withstand the explosion of a high-explosive warhead up to 1500 kg
                in the project of the destroyer Leader it was assumed that it was NOT radio-transparent armor with ceramics
                as well as radio-transparent armored ceramics for radar
                (this is from the latest news, from the Krylov State Research Center)
                1. +5
                  April 15 2024 13: 22
                  Quote: Romario_Argo
                  that is, we need a new project, for example a frigate with a smaller spacing of frames
                  for external placement of 100-200 mm ceramic armor plates

                  Don't torment poor ceramics.
                  The ceramic armor in question is based on aluminum oxide and is considered corundum ceramics. And it is only part of a rather complex composite armor, where ceramics acts as a crushing layer and more effectively protects against armor-piercing bullets and shells than steel. Since the strength of such ceramics is higher than the strength of steel, when a bullet hits ceramic armor, the core is deformed on the surface of the plate and is easily retained by the second layer of protection, which can be steel or polymer.

                  Nobody makes ceramic tanks and armored vehicles.
                  If you want the armor to be able to withstand the blow of a modern anti-ship missile, focus on multi-layer composite armor, which cannot be installed on a frigate even in the form of one armor belt - it will sink
                  1. -2
                    April 15 2024 13: 26
                    on our Tiger, Typhoon, BMP-3 armored fighting vehicles, Ka-52, Mi-28N, Mi-8AMTSh helicopters
                    use serial 55mm silicon carbide slabs
                    and on the BMP-3 the resistance of 55-mm plates to 155-mm shells is stated
                    1. +4
                      April 15 2024 13: 58
                      100 mm silicon carbide 1 sq.m. weighs 200-250 kg, and armor steel 750 kg
                      equivalent in steel as 400 mm
                      and 100 mm boron carbide is already 100-120 kg per 1 sq.m and has the equivalent against armor-piercing shells in 800 mm armor steel

                      Again you are gushing with nonsense.
                      When you snatched something like “Ceramics, by weight, can be up to 4 times superior to steel." - this does not mean that a 100 mm silicon carbide plate is equivalent in projectile resistance to 400 mm armor steel.
                      and on the BMP-3 the resistance of 55-mm plates to 155-mm shells is stated

                      This is resistance to fragments HE shells
                      Provided that the BMP-3 would have ceramic armor))
                    2. +4
                      April 15 2024 14: 23
                      Quote: Romario_Argo
                      use serial 55mm silicon carbide slabs

                      Much thinner thickness can be used in body armor
                      Quote: Romario_Argo
                      and on the BMP-3 the resistance of 55-mm plates to 155-mm shells is stated

                      They have already written to you about this. Not a direct hit from a 155 mm projectile, but fragments from nearby explosions
                  2. +1
                    April 15 2024 17: 44
                    hi
                    Don't torment poor ceramics.

                    If no one offers, I will have to.
                    So this means: the best armor is diamond!!!!

                    https://youtu.be/0Ne0fqOA3_I

                    I demand that our defenses be strengthened with diamond belts on our ships!
                    Firstly, it is practical - no one will drown!
                    Secondly, this is a solution that has no analogues in the world!!
                    Thirdly, it's beautiful!!!

                    I'm looking forward to tomorrow's article in the Armament section: "And if the armored belt is made of diamonds - for meetings without obligations."
                    Bright article titles have been pleasing to the eye lately!

                    HOORAY!!!!

                    No ceramics, no silicon carbide or boron! Suggest more bath tiles!
                    Only armor based on carbon crystals, only hardcore!!
                    Armor (according to the Krupp method.... no, in the Harvey sense... no), in the sense - armor according to the ALROSA method!!!
                    1. +1
                      April 16 2024 10: 28
                      Quote: Wildcat
                      So this means: the best armor is diamond!!!!

                      Yeah... a loaded donkey in gold diamonds, will win any war. smile
              2. 0
                April 15 2024 16: 44
                The RCC has a speed higher than that of the FX-1400

                In fact, the most popular "Harpoon" has similar performance characteristics...
          2. 0
            April 15 2024 17: 21
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The FX-1400 holed the battleship Roma from top to bottom without any problems

            "Fritz" had a mass of about one and a half tons, of which at least a ton was steel. Only in the frontal part, judging by the drawings, there was 20 centimeters of solid steel. Combat units of modern anti-ship missiles have nothing like this.
            1. 0
              April 15 2024 18: 20
              Quote: DenVB
              "Fritz" had a mass of about one and a half tons, of which at least a ton was steel.

              And the part had nothing to do with armor penetration, since it was an airframe design. We take the X-22, which has a ton of warheads, and at least 20 cm, at least 50 cm, we make an “armor-piercing cap”
              Quote: DenVB
              Combat units of modern anti-ship missiles have nothing like this.

              Purely due to uselessness. And if necessary, such warheads will be created much faster than a battleship of the 21st century will be built...
              1. 0
                April 15 2024 18: 25
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And the part had nothing to do with armor penetration, since it was an airframe design.

                No, the original bomb there weighed 1400 kg, of which 300 kg was explosive.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Take X-22

                So I wrote about modern ones.
                1. 0
                  April 15 2024 18: 38
                  Quote: DenVB
                  No, the original bomb there weighed 1400 kg, of which 300 kg was explosive.

                  That's right. Here in FAB 500, out of 530 kg of total weight, the body weighed 304 kg, and it was high-explosive.
                  Simply put, not all the ton of steel you write about is needed for armor penetration
                  1. 0
                    April 15 2024 18: 42
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Simply put, not all the ton of steel you write about is needed for armor penetration

                    Yes, almost everything, I think. The frontal part directly penetrates the armor, the rest adds inertia and prevents the destruction of the bomb itself in the process of armor penetration.
                    1. 0
                      April 15 2024 18: 55
                      Quote: DenVB
                      The frontal part directly penetrates the armor, the rest adds inertia and prevents the destruction of the bomb itself in the process of armor penetration.

                      This is not so, and I have already shown it using the example of a high-explosive bomb. The fact is that fragments are an important damaging factor, so the walls of the bombs were made quite thick, although this was not necessary for armor penetration
                      1. 0
                        April 15 2024 19: 05
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is not true

                        In what sense is it not true? This is intended to be an armor-piercing bomb. It would be advantageous to maximize the weight of the explosive by reducing the wall thickness. Therefore, all the steel that is available is needed to penetrate armor; the German engineers were not fools.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The fact is that fragments are an important damaging factor

                        I agree - for open space. But in the confined space of a ship, the greater the explosion energy, the better. Moreover, in your example with “Roma” the explosion occurred in the water, and the fragments there were of no use to anyone at all.
                      2. 0
                        April 15 2024 19: 24
                        Quote: DenVB
                        But in the confined space of a ship, the greater the explosion energy, the better

                        No, the fragments are also very important there
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Moreover, in your example with “Roma” the explosion occurred in the water, and the fragments there were of no use to anyone at all.

                        And in my example with Warspite, an explosion in the bottom compartments led to the flooding of 4 out of 5 stokers. Moreover, this happened precisely due to the fragmentation effect, since they broke the waterproof bulkheads
                      3. 0
                        April 15 2024 19: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No, the fragments are also very important there

                        We can argue for a long time, of course. They are very important, or not very important. For example, I believe that the energy of the explosion is most important, and there is enough material for fragments in any case. The main thing is that the armor is penetrated. And from the design of the Fritz bomb it is clear that this was precisely the decisive design factor.
                      4. +1
                        April 15 2024 21: 10
                        Quote: DenVB
                        And from the design of the Fritz bomb it is clear

                        Very thick steel side walls :)))
                      5. 0
                        April 15 2024 21: 12
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Very thick steel side walls :)))

                        Is this something funny?
                      6. 0
                        April 15 2024 21: 13
                        This confirms my point of view that a significant part of the metal was spent not on armor penetration, but on fragmentation action
                      7. 0
                        April 15 2024 21: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This confirms my point of view that a significant part of the metal was spent not on armor penetration, but on fragmentation action

                        No, not a confirmation. No metal was used to penetrate armor at all. How could it be spent?
      2. 0
        April 15 2024 16: 40
        Well, now imagine what would happen if the FX-1400 ended up in, say, Ticonderoga...

        The story with Roma is not an indicator, because it seems the Italians did not even try to fight for survivability. For comparison, in the Battle of Jutland, Seydlitz was destroyed NINETEEN hits with the main caliber and one torpedo. And - even though he was half destroyed - they finally dragged him to the base..

        "Musashi" went under water after being hit by 11-19 torpedoes and 10-17 air bombs...

        Do you really think that some kind of Harpoon is much more dangerous than, for example, a 14" projectile?? Not to mention larger calibers..

        In addition, no one is proposing to repeat one-to-one projects from the beginning of the 20th century. It only says that today’s small duralumin tanks without any armor have minimal chances of survival when hit by even a not very evil anti-ship missile. I’m generally silent about crap like, say, “Granita.”
        1. +2
          April 15 2024 17: 19
          Quote: paul3390
          Well, now imagine what would happen if the FX-1400 ended up in, say, Ticonderoga...

          Idem.
          Quote: paul3390
          The story with Roma is not an indicator, because it seems the Italians did not even try to fight for survivability.

          They didn't try. We fought. And after the first blow, which pierced the battleship through, they had a chance. They were gone after the second bomb hit the magazines of 381 mm ammunition...
          Quote: paul3390
          For comparison, in the Battle of Jutland, the Seydlitz scored NINETEEN hits with its main caliber and one torpedo.

          Yes. Read the results of these hits. None of them came close to what 2 German gifts did to Roma.
          Or take, for example, the Warspite, which was also hit by a glide bomb
          The FX-1400 bomb passed through all six decks and exploded in the lower rooms, destroying and flooding 4 of the 5 separate boiler rooms. The fourth boiler compartment was completely destroyed, all nearby bulkheads were bent and damaged by shrapnel.

          Quote: paul3390
          Do you really think that some kind of Harpoon is much more dangerous than, for example, a 14" projectile??

          As soon as you start creating an armored ship, you will receive in response an anti-ship missile capable of penetrating it. It is not difficult. It’s just that the creators of Harpoon did not have such a task.
          But most likely no one will even bother. They simply use anti-ship missiles, attacking in a “slide”, they will knock out the radar and fire control system, and finish off the armored hull with UABs.
          1. +1
            April 16 2024 10: 32
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But most likely no one will even bother. They simply use anti-ship missiles, attacking in a “slide”, they will knock out the radar and control system

            You can take a warhead from a missile defense system - it has an ideal fragmentation cone for precision mechanics work. optics and electronics. smile
            1. 0
              April 16 2024 12: 15
              Quote: Alexey RA
              You can take a warhead from a missile defense system - it has an ideal fragmentation cone for precision mechanics work. optics and electronics

              This is undoubtedly true
  5. +4
    April 15 2024 10: 13
    Even the world's most powerful navies do not seem prepared to fully resist on a large scale. At least, the NATO fleet is clearly (in the next article the other day!) losing to the Houthis, and in full

    The author’s imagination, taking into account the fact that the Houthis were never able to hit a NATO warship, ran wild.
    In and around the Red Sea, the Houthis' constant air attacks by drones on ships, including surface combatants of the United States and its allies, cannot but be considered successful.

    They cannot be considered successful; they never hit.
  6. 0
    April 15 2024 10: 20
    if a US Navy ship wants to hit a small target at a long distance

    It depends on what ship it is. If the UDC, for example, then it will lift into the air carrier-based aircraft, a couple of some F-35Vs.
  7. +1
    April 15 2024 10: 45
    Quote: Yuras_Belarus
    And check for yourself what damage anti-ship missiles can cause. Find the Yamato and shoot. And at the same time, think about what a useless “fool” it will be - a 20th century dreadnought in the era of missile weapons.

    Well, first of all, let's remember the incident with the American destroyer Cole. There, I remember one rubber boat with an outboard motor almost sank him.
    Now let’s imagine a ship, the side of which is protected by at least a 127mm armored belt, and then one or two anti-fragmentation bulkheads. I believe that neither the boat that damaged Cole nor the crappy BECs would have been able to even scratch such a ship.
    Moreover, Oleg Kaptsov previously wrote a lot about the phenomenal survivability of armored ships from the era of the First and Second World Wars.
    True, everyone made fun of Oleg, but... still Oleg was right in many ways - missiles instead of main-caliber turrets and at least some kind of armor protection on the decks and sides!
  8. 0
    April 15 2024 10: 50
    Extremely interesting article. As I see it, this is a new incarnation of aircraft carriers, which means it is necessary to revise the Montreux Convention.
    1. +2
      April 15 2024 11: 26
      This means we need to revise the Montreux Convention
      Just as the Turks will build a bypass canal by 2027, this convention will be revised
  9. 0
    April 15 2024 11: 56
    Technically, there are no problems with pushing it in, and there is a need. In general, in addition to the drone, we need something like a Hokai and a small Avik for them, in conjunction with others this will help.
  10. +1
    April 15 2024 13: 15
    Drone vs drone - not cheap and not reliable. A much more reliable and effective fuse is the “new” type, which was technically possible for a very long time, but there were no suitable purposes for its use. This fuse has a “window” located at an angle to the longitudinal axis, in which there is an LED laser with a receiver. In flight, when rotating, such a laser creates a swept cone, when the drone crosses it, a projectile with ready-made destructive elements is detonated. With this design, there is no need for an expensive and complex programmable detonation; it is only enough to aim it relatively accurately so that the projectile flies next to the drone at a distance of “guaranteed destruction.”
  11. -2
    April 15 2024 16: 28
    Dealing with drones is as easy as shelling pears - the commander of a ship hit by a drone needs to be hung on a yardarm - that's all.
  12. -1
    April 15 2024 17: 42
    Someone has incontinence again and a fresh batch of herbs and mushrooms))) Why should we read this? send it to the Americans))) let them read this masterpiece about how to protect themselves from UAVs and how much and what to put in containers, otherwise I’m afraid they won’t figure it out themselves - they don’t have such a writer))
    BECs are torpedoes for the poor, yeah))) Only those BECs that were raped by the Black Sea Fleet without lubrication for their successful use were accompanied by a reconnaissance system based on UAVs and aircraft that many non-poor countries cannot afford, and also have a control system based on satellite Internet) )) Again, how many countries have their own Starlink and how much does it cost?
    1. +1
      April 15 2024 18: 55
      Only those BECs who raped the FFM without lubrication

      The Black Sea Fleet would have been raped by steam destroyers, and especially if a German submarine had fallen into the Black Sea from the past. Because the leadership of the Black Sea Fleet is incompetent to such an extent that they receive their salaries in Kyiv
  13. ASM
    0
    April 15 2024 17: 49
    The tube for a drone is not a gun barrel, but an ordinary cheap tin with a tiny launch load. I made these cans, packed the drones in them, covered them with a membrane to protect them from salt spray, and stored them in the hold. When the ship has set sail, the crew takes these pipes out of the hold and hangs them on at least the entire perimeter bulwark. Yes, it will be necessary to slightly retrofit the ship with mounting brackets and launch wiring connectors. But there is no intervention in the hull structure and there is no need to fence special equipment on deck. When I came back from a hike, I put the pipes back in the hold and that was it.
  14. 0
    April 15 2024 18: 52
    Not long ago, on TV, the Lancet manufacturer showed a container for four Lancets with folding wings that automatically open upon launch. So the idea is already in the hardware.
  15. 0
    April 15 2024 19: 35
    But the potential to use lower-class drones for the same warships, both defensively and offensively, is perhaps just as important.

    A drone is still less suitable for an attack from a ship, since it is an easier target for air defense than cruise missiles, especially super- and hypersonic ones.
    And in terms of the degree of impact on the target of attack, it is inferior.
    Too niche a weapon to swap missiles for a drone. In addition - yes, but not instead.
  16. 0
    April 16 2024 03: 18
    All this is good and interesting. But how strong are the winds at sea? Will it turn out that all these miracle devices will simply be blown away by the wind? Or will their radius be half as large if they fly against the wind?
    1. 0
      April 16 2024 10: 36
      Quote from maximace
      Will it turn out that all these miracle devices will simply be blown away by the wind? Or will their radius be half as large if they fly against the wind?

      I immediately remembered the British carrier-based biplane torpedo bombers, which were twice thwarted by headwinds from launching an attack on the enemy’s air force. smile
  17. +1
    April 16 2024 14: 17
    Has anyone ever thought of finding the weakest point of a drone (no matter which one) and hitting it? In my opinion, this is a guidance system. In 99% of cases it is optical, in extreme cases it is thermal imaging (except for those flying to predetermined coordinates). Both are fairly easily neutralized by relatively low-power lasers. Even a simple scan of the space (air or sea) around the protected object will most likely blind the drone cameras and disrupt (complicate) the task. The cost of the device is a bunch of money. Energy consumption and weight are trifles. Detection of the glare from the optics (at least in the air) will allow you to determine the location of the reptile. In addition, it is interesting how the camera will react when irradiated with a strobe light with a sweep frequency....