Tests of the resistance of Krupp armor at the end of the 19th century

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Tests of the resistance of Krupp armor at the end of the 19th century

Some of the earliest information about the testing of Krupp armor at my disposal is a mention of it in an article in Naval Annual magazine for 1897, a description and partial translation of which is contained in “Naval Collection” No. 1 for 1898. Unfortunately, the source provides only an indirect description of these tests in the section that describes the 1896 shooting of the Harveyized armor plate produced by the British Cammel plant, which I cited in the previous article.

Let me remind you that of all the cases of practical testing of armor cemented using the Harvey method known to me, it was Kammel’s 152-mm product that demonstrated the best result. It was fired five times with 100-pound 6-inch Holzer shells, and the armor withstood the impacts of four of them, respectively, the “K” factor is equal to or greater than 2.

Is Harvey better than Krupp?


The description of the tests provides a recalculation of the durability of the Kammel plate into an iron one using the Tresider formula. This formula itself is not given, and it is not of great interest to us. The only important thing is that, according to these calculations, the durability of the 152-mm Kammel plate was equated to 13,45 dm of iron armor, “which is 2,24 times greater than the thickness of the tested plate.”

Further, the author of the article in Naval Annual refers to tests of a 5,75-in (146,05-mm) plate, surface-hardened using the Krupp method, at which 15-cm and 21-cm German shells were fired, “at speeds giving the thickness of the pierced iron armor according to the Tresider formula from 10,2 to 13,6 dm, which is 1,77 and 2,35 thicknesses of the experimental plate.”



Unfortunately, nothing is said about the results of the shelling, but it is concluded that “... the Kammel plate showed greater resistance to penetration than the excellent above-mentioned Krupp plate.”

Of course, there is nothing impossible about this, since during testing of the armor for Poltava, Krupp’s armor showed a “K” slightly lower than Kammel’s armor – 2.

Thus, the publication of the Naval Annual fully confirms the thesis that the best armor plates created using the Harvey method were quite on par and could even exceed the regulatory (minimum) requirements for Krupp armor. Moreover, at least one of the famous armor manufacturers shared the same opinion. The article stated:

“Our Sheffield factories (Brown, Cammel and Vickers) can be congratulated on the fact that they have resolved this important issue in this way. These three plants use nickel to make the armor supplied to our fleet, and they all acquired the right to use the Krupp process.

It is now believed by Kammel that equally good results are achieved by Harvey's processes using nickel; but Vickers and Brown recognize the advantage of the Krupp gas method, which gives a particularly favorable result in the production of thick armor plates, giving them particularly high viscosity.”

The same “Marine Collection” No. 1 for 1898 briefly describes the tests of the Krupp slab with a thickness of 11,8 inches (299,72 mm), which took place in Meppen in 1895. It is indicated that they fired a Krupp projectile weighing 712,6 pounds or 323,23 kg. This projectile struck the slab at a 9-degree deflection from normal, i.e., at an angle of 81 degrees to the slab surface at a velocity of 1 ft/s (993 m/s). It is stated that: “the depth of the holes was not given, but judging by the buckling on the back surface of the slab and light cracks, it must be recognized that the resistance limit of the slab was almost reached.”

Unfortunately, the source does not indicate the caliber of the projectile that was used to test the slab. But in the Marine Collection No. 1–2 for 1900 there is an article “Tests of armor plates carried out in 1898–1899,” which describes other tests that took place a year later, on June 5, 1896. It states that shells weighing between 712 and 718 pounds were fired from a 305 mm gun. Consequently, it becomes possible to calculate the durability of Krupp armor during the 1895 tests.

If the projectile had pierced the plate with the above initial data, its “K” should have been determined equal to 2. But the projectile still did not penetrate the armor, although it was close to this, accordingly, it is necessary to assume “K” to be no less than 168–2 170. Which, again, is quite comparable with the results of shelling the Krupp plate for Poltava and the standards for its production in Russia.

However, Krupp not only produced his armor, but also sold the technology for its production to everyone who wanted to purchase it, and there were many buyers. Among them, of course, were England and the USA.

For the needs of the Royal Navy


Two Krupp armor plates, manufactured under Krupp license at two different factories, were subject to testing. So, on July 12, 1898, firing took place on a 305-mm Krupp-Brown plate produced by the Atlas Works plant. They fired, again, not too heavy twelve-inch shells weighing 714 pounds, or 323,9 kg (did they collude with the Germans, or what?).

Three rounds were fired at armor impact velocities of 1, 852, and 1 fps, with none penetrating the armor. And this is not at all surprising, because even if the armor was overcome by a projectile with the highest speed of 856 ft/s or 1 m/s, this would indicate a “K” of only 849, while the armor Krupp's resistance was obviously higher.

The second plate produced by Krupp-Kammel formally seemed to have a thickness of 305 mm, but, according to the author of the article “Tests of armor plates produced in 1898–1899,” it was thinner. The fact is that in the British Navy they usually operated not on the thickness, but on the weight of the armor plate, and the author points out: “The thickness of the plate is not shown exactly, but its weight does not exceed 480 pounds per square foot. Taking this weight into account, we see that its thickness should be somewhat less than 12 inches, since in a slab made according to the Krupp method, 1 square foot should weigh 490 pounds. It can be assumed that its thickness was 11,66 inches.”

They fired three 12-inch Holzer shells that weighed between 718,5 and 719,75 pounds or 325,9 and 326,5 kg. That is, the armor plate was tested with relatively light projectiles, and even at relatively low speeds at the moment of impact: 1 ft/s maximum. Accordingly, it is not surprising that the plate was not pierced again - if it had been pierced by a 866-pound projectile at a speed of 718,5 ft/s (1 m/s), this would indicate “K” = 866 568,8. Obviously, the “K” of the Krupp plate should be higher, and there is nothing surprising in the fact that the armor plate was never pierced.

But the question arises: why didn’t the British, during testing, consistently increase the speed of the projectile on the armor, and didn’t achieve a breakdown of the plate, because this is the only way to confidently talk about the limits of its durability?

The answer, apparently, lies in the guns from which the shelling was carried out.

The British very actively developed their naval artillery, and in 1895 a very good artillery system, the 305 mm/35 Mark VIII, was developed and sent into mass production. This gun was installed on Majestic-class battleships and was armed with an 850-pound (385,55 kg) armor-piercing projectile. Subsequently, British battleships and the first dreadnoughts were equipped with armor-piercing shells of precisely this weight (probably different in design, but the weight remained the same) until the advent of 305 mm/50 guns.

However, Krupp’s armor was not fired at by the latest 305 mm/35 guns, as the weight of the shells used clearly indicates. Such shells were fired by 305 mm/25 guns, similar to those installed on the Colossus-class battleships and Collingwood, built in the 1880s.


Battleship Collingwood

“Short-barreled” twelve-inch guns provided, according to the passport, only 1914 feet per second maximum initial speed. It can be assumed that the guns from which the Krupp armor was tested already had some firing, and could not provide projectiles with velocities exceeding 1–856 ft./s on the armor. And the British were quite satisfied that the durability of Krupp’s armor in this case at least corresponded to the best examples of Harvey’s armor plates.

This is probably why Lord Brassey, to whom the article referred, pointed out: “After these experiments, the possibility of producing armor plates in English factories using the Krupp method, both thick and thin, should be considered fully proven.”

Tests in the USA


Tests of American-made Krupp armor are much more informative, because the shelling was carried out from more modern artillery systems than the antediluvian British 305 mm/25. As a result, in both cases, which will be described below, the Americans managed to penetrate the tested armor plates and determine the speed of the projectiles, which was close to the maximum that these plates could withstand.

In both cases, the armor produced by Carnegie was subject to testing; the thickness in the first case was 305 mm, and in the second - 152 mm. Shooting was carried out with shells whose caliber was equal to the thickness of the plate.

Three shells weighing 305 pounds were fired at the 850mm plate. The first, with a speed on the armor of 1 ft./s (833 m/s): “deepened 559 inches and, having settled in the slab, did not create cracks in it.” The second projectile, at a speed of 8,5 ft./s (2 m/s), penetrated the armor, but did so at the limit, as it got stuck in the lining, however, severely damaging it. The third projectile, having a speed on the armor of only 022 ft/s (616 m/s), quite expectedly did not penetrate the armor, penetrating only 1 inches into it.

Undoubtedly, the twelve-inch Carnegie slab showed excellent results. Considering the second, effective, hit as extremely close to the armor's maximum resistance, we get its “K” equal to or slightly below 2.

As for the six-inch Carnegie armor, it was tested on July 13, 1898. The slab was set on a backing of 12" thick oak and two 5/8" iron sheets - alas, it is not noted whether this is the thickness of one sheet or two sheets at once. Four shots were fired at the armor plate with 4 mm Carpenter shells, each weighing 152 pounds (100 kg). But we will consider only the first three, since the fourth shot was fired by a projectile with an armor-piercing tip. A photograph of this armor plate (after shelling) is in the title of this article.

Obviously, the third shot turned out to be extremely close to the maximum resistance of the armor: after all, the lining under the armor itself had negligible resistance. At the same time, the projectile itself was destroyed, that is, for a “clean” penetration, in which the projectile, even at the limit, would overcome the armor as a whole, an even greater speed on the armor would be required. But even so we get a wonderful “K” = 2!

Do we have reasons to mistrust the results presented?

Could it be that American-made Krupp armor turned out to be much better than German?

Quite obviously not. After all, domestic, Russian armor produced using Krupp technology demonstrated quite similar indicators: “K” = 2 for a 335 mm thick plate in relation to 305-inch shells and “K” = 12 for a 2 mm thick plate in relation to 566-inch shells.

Conclusions


In the course of analyzing the durability of armor plates manufactured by the Krupp method in Russia and abroad, attention is drawn to the excessive variation in the durability of Krupp armor in comparison with his predecessor Harvey. “Early” Harvey showed resistance “K” according to de Marr at the level of 1–700, that is, a difference of 1 units. The new method of harveying, which was invented and used by specialists at the Carnegie plant, provided “K” at the level of 950–250, that is, 2 units. But, as we can see from the test results, the durability of Krupp armor ranges from 000–2 or 200 units!

But there is an important nuance here.

The upper limits of Krupp armor resistance are shown by medium-caliber projectiles, that is, 6-dm, while heavy twelve-inch projectiles show a “definition” “K” in the range of 2–150, that is, a very reasonable 2 units. It can be assumed that the abnormally high resistance of Krupp armor against 400-mm caliber shells is explained by some peculiarities of its production, which do not apply to calibers over 250 dm, but, not being an expert, I cannot judge.

On the other hand, Harvey's armor also showed its record performance on medium-caliber projectiles. Is it possible to assume on this basis that the upper limit of durability of the “early” and “forged” Harvey (“K” = 1950 and 2, respectively) is applicable to the assessment of only 200–6 inch artillery systems, and for 9–10 inch projectiles the durability of Harvey will the slabs be slightly lower?

Maybe so, maybe not, unfortunately, I don’t have the knowledge to put forward such a possibility as a hypothesis. Perhaps in the future, having developed and expanded my statistical base, I will be able to make some assumptions in this regard.

In general, the data at my disposal today allows me to evaluate the comparative durability of armor plates made by the Harvey and Krup method in the following proportion:


If we compare the average values ​​for large-caliber projectiles, we find that to ensure equal durability with Krupp armor, one should take the armor plate of the “improved” Harvey about 12% thicker than the Krupp one, and the “early” Harvey one – 37% thicker than the Krupp one.

But here I once again draw the attention of the dear reader that all the above conclusions were obtained empirically, that is, experimentally, based on a relatively small statistical sample of tests. And although they are to a certain extent confirmed by the opinion of specialists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, you need to understand that their opinions were formed just as empirically - except that they had a larger sample. Accordingly, the results I obtained should be assessed as a hypothesis, but, of course, not as the ultimate truth.

I propose to continue to look for the test results of armor and projectiles, calculate them according to armor penetration formulas and, based on the results obtained, edit and supplement the picture presented in this series of articles. However, in the absence of compelling objections, I believe it is possible to use the data I obtained to model the capabilities of domestic naval artillery during the Russo-Japanese War.

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  1. +4
    April 12 2024 04: 51
    Hello, dear Andrey!
    Thank you very much for the article, finally the most interesting thing has come for your humble servant.

    I propose to continue to look for the test results of armor and projectiles, calculate them using armor penetration formulas and, based on the results obtained, edit and supplement the picture presented in this series of articles.

    Here, dear colleague, are a couple of armor test results for Japanese battleships, gleaned from periodicals of that time.
    An 8 ¾" thick steel plate manufactured by Vickers for the Japanese ironclad Shikishima, being built at Thames Ironworks, was fire tested on Whale Island in Portsmouth Harbour. A total of three 9,2 lb Holtzer armor-piercing steel shells were fired at the plate from the 380" gun . In two cases the speed was 1 feet per second, and in one case 700 feet per second.
    In the first two cases, the shells left dents about 3" deep (no cracks), in the third case the dent depth was about 3 ¾" (no cracks). The shells fell apart. Billed as "Harvey's special steel-nickel armor"
    .


    At the Elswick test site in Ridsdale, a Krupp armor plate measuring eight by eight feet, 8,8" thick and weighing 10,175 tons was tested. The plate was taken from a batch intended for the Japanese battleship Asahi. The plate was fired from an 8" gun with Wheeler-Sterling shells weighing 250 pounds, manufactured by Elswick. Armor velocities were 1, 859, and 1 feet per second. The plate perfectly withstood the impacts of broken shells, which left behind dents with a maximum depth of 964" without the slightest sign of cracks.
    For comparison, at the Indian Head test site, a 9" thick Harvey armor plate was tested, taken from a batch of plates intended for the turrets of the American battleships Kearsarge and Kentucky. The test results are as follows: 8" Wheeler-Sterling armor-piercing shell, having a speed on the armor of 1 ft. second, left a 734 ½" deep dent
    .


    I can add that a lot depended on the chemical composition of the slab; I have something on this topic, if you’re interested, I’ll share it.
    1. +3
      April 12 2024 08: 56
      Good morning, dear Valentin!
      Thanks for the info. In the first case, “K” turned out to be much higher than 2, in the second - 178. For Shikishima, the slab is simply extremely good, but for Asahi it is incomprehensible. It seems that Harvey stood on it, not Krupp. If, nevertheless, your source is correct, and the stove is really Krupp, then yes, it just turns out to be a good Krupp. But if Harvey's...
      1. 0
        April 13 2024 01: 49
        Hello, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thanks for the information.

        Here are more test results. The armor is not Krupp, but Harvey, but it is interesting because it is an armor plate from a batch for the cruiser "Russia".
        Nine hits on the slab, and nine hit results tabulated.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It seems that Harvey stood on it, not Krupp.

        The main armor belt, of course, but this information is from an official source, so there is no mistake here. Obviously, Krupp was installed on some site. Unfortunately, I don't have the details.
        1. +1
          April 13 2024 07: 20
          Good afternoon, dear Valentine!
          No problem, thanks anyway :)))))
          Quote: Comrade
          The main armor belt, of course, but this information is from an official source, so there is no mistake here. Obviously, Krupp was installed on some site.

          Most likely, you are absolutely right - it was partly Harvey, partly Krupp.
          1. +1
            April 14 2024 02: 14
            Hello, dear Andrey!

            Tests in the USA.
            In both cases, the armor produced by Carnegie was subject to testing; the thickness in the first case was 305 mm, and in the second - 152 mm. Shooting was carried out with shells whose caliber was equal to the thickness of the plate.

            Here are another results of shelling Krupp armor, and from a batch intended for "Retvizana"(I wonder what the verdict will be on the durability of this slab? You wrote that the slab has a “K” for Asahi it turned out to be 2). It turns out something like a correspondence competition between the American and English manufacturers of Krupp armor.

            The thickness of the plate is 5", the caliber of the shells is 5", the weight of the shells is 50 pounds. The speed of the projectiles is written next to the hit marks. In all cases, the depth of the resulting depression was about 2".
            The source says that under the same conditions, the depth of penetration of shells into the Harvey slab was about 4,4".
          2. 0
            April 14 2024 02: 28
            Noteworthy is the mistake made by the Americans when writing the name of the battleship. There is no solid sign at the end.
            1. 0
              April 14 2024 07: 26
              Good afternoon, dear Valentin! Alas, there was no breakdown, it remains to be stated that K was greater than 2
      2. +1
        April 13 2024 04: 25
        Ay-ay-ay, dear Andrey!
        Alas for me, the absent-minded one.
        You have these results in another article, only the photograph is different, which confused me. And now I looked at the date in the source - the same one, May 13, 1896.
  2. +2
    April 12 2024 09: 30
    The article is interesting, but the photo was not chosen well, it talks about Krupp armor, and in the photo in large letters Carnegie)))
    1. +3
      April 12 2024 10: 11
      Quote: TermNachTER
      but the photo was not chosen well, it talks about Krupp’s armor, and in the photo in large letters Carnegie)))

      Nikolay, in the photo - an armor plate made at the Carnegie plant using the Krupp method :)))) And exactly the same one, the tests of which are described in the article. But Carnegie’s armor did not exist in nature, there was Harvey’s armor :)))
      1. +2
        April 12 2024 10: 59
        Just noting a curiosity. Of course, I’m not a big expert in metallurgy and armor production. But I know that the Carnegie steel mills in the USA did not use their own technologies to make armor for the US Navy and other countries. By the way, why didn’t you bother? They could have come up with their own way. Science in the United States was then developing by leaps and bounds, although sometimes at the expense of migrants.
        1. +2
          April 12 2024 11: 10
          Quote: TermNachTER
          But I know that the Carnegie steel mills in the USA did not use their own technologies to make armor for the US Navy and other countries.

          So how? Harvey is an American. And at the Carnegie plant they improved Harvey’s technology by using the so-called double forging; in fact, it was Carnegie who improved Harvey armor from “early” to “improved”. Although, perhaps, the British followed a parallel path with them, and did not take his technology
          1. +2
            April 12 2024 11: 30
            Yes, Harvey was an American. But my point is that Carnegie had both the money and the opportunity to do something new, but he chose to follow the beaten path - he improved the process a little.
  3. +2
    April 12 2024 10: 02
    Andrei hi A logical question is, what did we have with the armor? It seems like they poured armor at the Putilov plant, but what quality and according to whose patent were they made, or did they have their own armor?
    1. +2
      April 12 2024 10: 18
      Quote: Thrifty
      The logical question is, what did we have with the armor?

      I wrote about this here https://topwar.ru/237211-bronja-kruppa-rossjiskoj-imperii-idem-na-rekord.html
      But in short, everything was fine with Krupp. They did it no worse than the Germans, and maybe even a little better.
      According to the patents, they made the steel-nickel one themselves, they tried to “reverse engineer” the steel-nickel one, and they produced it for only a short time; they quickly switched to Krupp, from whom they bought the patent and the production of which the Germans helped establish. In general, everything was done with Krupp very quickly - even despite what was initially supposed to be done with the existing equipment, and during development it turned out that millions needed to be invested in new ones; the Admiral General, although swearing a lot, instantly found these millions.
      They could, when they wanted...
  4. +3
    April 12 2024 10: 32
    The fact that thin armor is stronger than thick armor may be due to the following factor: the cementation of the armor has a certain depth from the surface. This depth is the same in absolute terms for both thin and thick armor. And for thin armor, the proportion of cemented steel in the cross section will be greater than for thick armor.
    In my opinion, homogeneous steel (the so-called having the same parameters throughout the entire depth) appeared later and was stronger.
    1. +1
      April 12 2024 12: 54
      Yes. But rather, what is more important here is the ratio of the cemented part to the uncemented part. That is, the ratio between the thickness of the hardness of the front side and the viscosity of the body of the slab.
      But on tanks with those calibers of AP shells, homogeneous armor is considered better.
  5. +4
    April 12 2024 12: 19
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing. It can be added that by that time armor manufacturers began to require that shells of different calibers be of the same quality. The fastenings of the armor plates at the training grounds were strengthened; otherwise, the speed of the projectiles had to be reduced, which, in their opinion, could have given an inaccurate result. In this case, the distance between hits must be at least four calibers; in cases of a shorter distance, the hit was not taken into account.
    1. +3
      April 12 2024 12: 48
      Quote: 27091965i
      In this case, the distance between hits must be at least four calibers; in cases of a shorter distance, the hit was not taken into account.

      Thank you very much dear Igor, I didn’t know this hi
      1. +3
        April 12 2024 18: 35
        There was also, so to speak, an innovation. One or two sheets of steel with a thickness of 10-14 mm were installed behind the armor plate at a certain distance to determine the impact of projectiles in the event of penetration of the armor plate or parts of the projectile on these sheets. Calculations of speed were made after passing the slab, but this was not a widespread phenomenon, so it was not often mentioned.
  6. +1
    April 12 2024 12: 42
    "to simulate the capabilities of domestic naval artillery during the Russo-Japanese War."
    It would be nice to find the “naturalness coefficient” - i.e. transition from ideal test site conditions to reality... hi
    1. +2
      April 12 2024 12: 47
      Quote: DrEng02
      It would be nice to find the “naturalness coefficient” - i.e. transition from ideal test site conditions to reality...

      :)) In fact, the “naturalness factor” is based on 2 indicators
      1) Averaging the quality of the armor (that is, we take the average between the minmax - as the practice of domestic plates has shown, the quality varied quite a bit)
      2) We take into account the angle of impact of the projectile. Normally, of course, it will hit very rarely, if at all
      1. 0
        April 12 2024 13: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        based on 2 indicators

        Optimistic - do you think the influence of ambient temperature is not significant?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        about normals, of course, it will hit very rarely, if at all

        Interesting:
        1) are there statistics on hit angles in battles? Most likely there is some distribution of hits at angles from 0 (normal) to 45 degrees, smaller angles will most likely lead to a ricochet...
        2) the problem is 2-dimensional, so it is necessary to consider the solid angle - the angle not only in the plane of the earth/sea, but also the angle of incidence of the projectile, as well as their combination... all this greatly complicates the picture in reality request
        1. +3
          April 12 2024 13: 52
          Quote: DrEng02
          Optimistic - do you think the influence of ambient temperature is not significant?

          Absolutely unimportant. Of course, if the battleships had fought a duel somewhere beyond the Arctic Circle, it could have been significant.
          Quote: DrEng02
          the problem is 2-dimensional, so we need to consider the solid angle - the angle not only in the plane of the earth/sea, but also the angle of incidence of the projectile, as well as their combination... all this greatly complicates the picture in reality

          The solution was simpler - we took an angle of 25 degrees :))))) Exactly as the resulting
          1. +1
            April 12 2024 14: 41
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The solution was simpler - we took an angle of 25 degrees :))))) Exactly as the resulting

            since vector addition is appropriate here, then these are 2 angles of 17,7 degrees... reasonable
          2. +1
            April 14 2024 12: 03
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Of course, if the battleships had fought a duel somewhere beyond the Arctic Circle, it could have been significant.

            I read German manuals from the WWII period on the acceptance of armor plates, but I have never encountered requirements for checking armor according to the “cold resistance” parameter or anything similar.
    2. -3
      April 12 2024 19: 12
      Dear Sergey DrEng02. You correctly suspected that there may be phenomena that worsen armor penetration. It would be nice to find the “naturalness coefficient” - i.e. transition from ideal test site conditions to reality...
      But Andrey from Chelyabinsk was quickly able to deceive you - they say everything is normal and all deviations are taken into account. Although, of course, Andrey is a little right - in that temperature does not affect it and the solid angle is also not that important. But there are other phenomena that greatly influence the flight of projectiles. But scientists deliberately hide these mysterious phenomena from the people. And because of this, the actual armor penetration is always much better than in field tests - sometimes twice as much. And to hide this, range shots are always fired at very close distances - to hide mysterious phenomena from the people.
      For anyone who doubts my words, please note that armor penetration testing is always carried out at very close distances: for large-caliber artillery this is no more than a few hundred meters, and for hand-held small arms of a rifle caliber - about ten meters. You will remember that the durability of a bulletproof vest is tested at a distance of only 10 m, instead of at least half a kilometer.
      But I will not tell the whole public about these mysterious phenomena. If you want, I can give a little hint in personal correspondence. But only if you answer a few verification questions.
      1. +1
        April 12 2024 20: 01
        Well, first of all, the polygon is not infinite.
        And secondly, the speed of the projectile was very simply selected by the appropriate charge. And thus the distance was simulated.
        The angle of impact remained. But for some reason they shot at normal for a very long time and didn’t bother. On the other hand, this is the worst option for armor. From the point of view of checking the reservation - good. From the point of view of shells, of course not.
        1. -3
          April 12 2024 20: 54
          And secondly, the speed of the projectile was very simply selected by the appropriate charge. And thus the distance was simulated.

          You are of course right that an increased firing distance is very easily and simply simulated by reducing the weight of the powder charge. This means that everything would seem to be accurate. But I am hinting that at long distances mysterious phenomena arose that cannot be simulated by simply reducing the weight of the gunpowder and reducing the speed of the projectile. Therefore, in general, all the calculations of ballistics specialists and in particular your everyone’s favorite - Andrei from Chelyabinsk - are a complete fiction and a monkey’s work.
          We shot normally for a long time and didn’t worry

          And in this you are also right. but they shot along the normal line, which in pre-Tsushima times was supposed to fight at distances of no more than 10 kb - ramming and torpedo strikes, and there the angle is indeed very often close to the normal. but at distances of 30-60-80 kb, mysterious phenomena already appear that worsen armor penetration, which ballisticians have always ignored and tried not to notice.
        2. -2
          April 12 2024 21: 29
          Well, first of all, the polygon is not infinite.

          The fact of the matter is that the firing distance at armored plates was not chosen based on the size of the ranges. And to remove the influence of mysterious phenomena that arise during long-range shooting. or do you think that there is not enough land in Russia or America? Yes, the dimensions of the training ground could easily be tens of kilometers, and the firing distance to the slab was often chosen on the order of hundreds of meters. Did you know that the shock wave from a shot of a twelve-inch gun breaks out all the windows in houses at a distance of several kilometers. which means that the size of the landfill cannot be less than ten kilometers. Why then were armor plates placed a hundred or two away from the gun? I will be glad if someone refutes me.
          1. +1
            April 13 2024 14: 58
            Well, people can’t set up slabs on a training ground like they would on an armadillo. It's just VERY expensive. Here is a photo of the slab in the header. Start shooting from a long distance. Where will you end up? But you need to understand that each time you end up in a different place on the slab. Well, will you smash it with a second shot, hitting almost the same hit? And why such experiments? You need to get to a specific place or at least closer to it. Typically away from previous hits. That's the whole secret.
        3. +2
          April 12 2024 22: 01
          Quote: MCmaximus
          Well, first of all, the polygon is not infinite.

          The problem there is not that the range is infinite, but that if you try to simulate shooting over several kilometers, as in real life, the dispersion will be such that you will have to fire several shells to hit the plate. And who needs it?
          1. -2
            April 12 2024 22: 26
            The problem there is not that the range is infinite, but that if you try to simulate shooting over several kilometers, as in real life, the dispersion will be such that you will have to fire several shells to hit the plate. And who needs it?

            You, like most readers, have absolutely no memory for interesting facts. But most readers have read Melnikov’s book “Battleship Potemkin”. So, it tells how the artillerymen of Tsyvinsky’s squadron were trained so that from a distance of 90 cables, sometimes the very first shell hit the target - the most ordinary wooden boat sailing at a speed of probably 5-10 knots, that is, this target was not stationary. Do you and the readers need to explain what a distance of 90 cables is? this is about 16 kilometers - and they hit with the first shot!
            Or maybe I need to explain to you what a squadron and a warship are? So let me remind you that the ship rocks a little even in the weakest waves - I don’t know how much, but let’s assume the rocking is only 1 degree. but changing the elevation angle of the gun by just one tenth of a degree will give a dispersion of hundreds of meters. And if we also take into account the roll of the ship from recoil when firing its own large-caliber guns? You know what he is like. But the gun at the firing range is mounted on a reinforced concrete base and does not swing at all, which means that the firing accuracy at the firing range should be tens of times better than that of Tsivinsky’s squadron. AND IN ADDITION, THE ARMOR PLATES AT THE RANGE COULD BE INSTALLED IN 2 FLOORS - THAT IS ABOUT 5 METERS HEIGHT. AND THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY MOTIONLESS! So what was the problem with getting to the training ground? maybe not from 16 km, but at least from 5 km like in Tsushima? And they always shot from hundreds of meters, why? Do you think that they couldn’t hit it at the training ground?
            1. +1
              April 13 2024 08: 15
              Quote: geniy
              SO, it tells how the artillerymen of Tsyvinsky’s squadron trained so that from a distance of 90 cables they sometimes hit the target with the very first shell

              Your memory, tormented by world conspiracies, has failed you again. There were no hits from 90 cables. In the famous shootings at which de Belize was present it was like this
              “At a distance of 90 cables, we began shooting with a fork, and, having fired a salvo with the entire squadron, we made a second shooting and a second salvo, at which the layba was broken and lay down.”
              As for hits with the “first shell,” Melnikov has no such thing at all. There is something else
              “from a distance of 60 cables, it happened that the sailing boat was sunk with the very first sighting shots.” However, “the first shots” and the “first projectile” are a huge difference; if, for example, the second sighting half-volley hits, it will be the “first shots” but one out of four projectiles will hit the target.
              This time. Secondly, you have no idea about the size of the laiba. And this, generally speaking, is a boat up to 15-20 meters long. So think about how many armor plates need to be made to form an area at least half the size of the deck with a sail
              1. -1
                April 13 2024 09: 11
                “from a distance of 60 cables, it happened that the sailing boat was sunk with the very first sighting shots.” However, “the first shots” and the “first projectile” are a huge difference; if, for example, the second sighting half-volley hits, it will be the “first shots” but one out of four projectiles will hit the target.

                Perhaps you are trying to deceive readers. Because the success of each specific shooting varies. More accurate shootings happen, and less accurate ones happen. You take the hypothetical worst case scenario - when you hit only with the last shells, but you could have hit with the first shell.
                You are also trying to deceive that one shell hit the lab. But the grouping of falls to hit with 90 cabs was probably so great that the shells, in principle, fell close to each other, so the first or fourth did not make much of a difference. and usually only one ship conducted the shooting.
              2. -1
                April 13 2024 09: 21
                It’s also an attempt on your part to mislead readers, although at first glance this is the pure truth:
                from a distance of 60 cables, it happened that they sank a sailboat with the very first sighting shots." However, "the first shots" and the "first shell" - there is a huge difference

                As everyone knows, during any artillery shooting it is very difficult to immediately accurately determine the distance to the target. and for this purpose the well-known shooting operation is performed. And then, when the first shot has zeroed in, more accurate shooting to kill begins. So - if they hit the laiba even with sighting shots, then the next shots were even more accurate!
                And we compare the shooting of ships with shooting at a firing range, where you can calmly and without any haste fire the first sighting shot, and then slightly correct the aiming by tenths or even hundredths of a degree and accurately sniper hit an armor plate from a distance of several kilometers!
                1. +2
                  April 13 2024 12: 53
                  Quote: geniy
                  And we compare the shooting of ships with shooting at a firing range, where you can calmly and without any haste fire the first sighting shot, and then slightly correct the aiming by tenths or even hundredths of a degree and accurately sniper hit an armor plate from a distance of several kilometers!

                  Maybe you should start by reading textbooks on artillery, and then continue to convey your deepest thoughts to the masses?
              3. -1
                April 13 2024 09: 34
                You are again trying to mislead readers.
                This time. Secondly, you have no idea about the size of the laiba. And this, generally speaking, is a boat up to 15-20 meters long. So think about how many armor plates need to be made to form an area at least half the size of the deck with a sail

                Few people know that the main difficulty in hitting a target is hitting the height, not the width of the target. And the height of the side of the laiba is approximately only one meter. so that its length did not make any significant difference, even if it was on a parallel course. so the height of its side is only about a meter compared to the height of the armor plate of 2,3 m. And as I mentioned, in principle the plates could be placed on two floors with a height of this target of about 5 meters - which would increase the probability of a hit by 5 times!
                And once again I remind readers that Andrei is carefully trying to hide that the shooting accuracy at the firing range is many times greater than the shooting accuracy of the ship and the entire squadron - because the ships are pitched, and at the firing range the gun is installed on a heavy-duty reinforced concrete base. And besides, a layba in the sea is a moving target - so you have to aim at it, and the concrete slabs at the training ground are absolutely motionless. Therefore, the accuracy of shooting at the training ground should be sniper-like high and it was possible to shoot from a distance of several kilometers, but for some reason they shot from a couple of hundred meters.
                1. +2
                  April 13 2024 09: 46
                  Quote: geniy
                  And the height of the side of the laiba is approximately only one meter.

                  Yes. But hits on the sail were also counted as hits :)))
                  1. -1
                    April 13 2024 09: 53
                    Yes. But hits on the sail were also counted as hits :)))
                    The hits only make a hole in the sail the size of a soccer ball, and cannot capsize the sail. And hits in the sail will not do any harm to the sailboat and it will continue on its way, and the hole in the sail is not visible at all from a distance of 60-90 cabs.
                    Laiba was broken and lay down"
                    To break the Laiba you need to get into its body and break it.
                    1. +2
                      April 13 2024 09: 55
                      Quote: geniy
                      To break the Laiba you need to get into its body and smash it.

                      And this, even at a distance of 60 cables, happened quite rarely. We read Melnikov.
                      Quote: geniy
                      And hits in the sail will not do any harm to the sailboat and it will continue on its way, and the hole in the sail is not visible at all from a distance of 60-90 cabs.

                      The number of holes was revealed after the shooting. They approached, examined the “drowned” life, and counted
                      In short, take the firing tables of the same ground artillery, find out what deviations there are, both lateral and vertical. Then it may become clear why a certain number of shells are allocated to hit a stationary target...
                      It will be more difficult to talk about conspiracies there - they were used in real life :))))
                      1. -2
                        April 13 2024 10: 01
                        The number of holes was revealed after the shooting. They approached, examined the “drowned” life, and counted
                        This is just your own guess. Because after sighting shooting comes shooting to kill, which makes so many holes in the target that there is no way to distinguish them from the first and last ones. and if the original source says that the Laiba was sunk with the first sighting shots, then that’s how it was. And once again I ask everyone to remember that this is shooting from rocking ships at sea, and shooting at the range is many times more accurate, so the argument that at the range they could not hit the armor plate from a long distance is a deception.
                      2. +2
                        April 13 2024 10: 15
                        Having first made several evolutions at full speed of the squadron, at a distance of 90 cables we began shooting with a fork, and, having fired a salvo with the entire squadron, we made a second shooting and a second salvo, at which the layba was broken and lay down. The entire shooting, including two sightings, lasted 17 minutes. The Marquis followed with me on the bridge all the manipulations of the senior artillery officer controlling the fire. The Laibs counted six holes in the hull and there are three holes in the sail. The Marquis was very pleased." This is how Tsyvinsky himself recalled this episode..

                        So learn hardware instead of conspiracy theories - and you will be happy
                        Quote: geniy
                        and if the original source says that the Laiba was sunk with the first sighting shots, then that’s how it was

                        :))) You can’t even read Melnikov
                        “already in the 1907 campaign, when in the last shootings from a distance of 60 cables it happened that the sailing boat was sunk with the first shots”

                        THAT is not always the case, but only at the last shooting (when skill reached its peak) and then not at all :))) And the first shots are never the first shell, which I already explained
                      3. -1
                        April 13 2024 12: 33
                        Let me remind all readers that the topic of this section of the discussion is not at all falling into some sleazy, uninteresting scam, but the question of why at all the firing ranges in the world they didn’t shoot at armored plates from long distances. and Laiba is just an example of ultra-precise shooting, given to compare with the accuracy of shooting at the firing range. That is, if in sea conditions they hit from long distances, then at any training ground they should have shot snipers without missing a beat. But for some secret reason, they didn’t want to shoot accurately at the ranges. therefore, in order to hide this secret from the people, Andrey from Chelyabinsk is trying his best to refute this comparison. Firstly, I ask everyone to understand that 90 cables was simply a gigantic shooting distance at that time. And then they generally increased it to 110 cables, which means that in order to hit accurately, they reduced the dispersion of shells to an incredible minimum! This means that they could hit them at training ranges from such distances if they wanted to. And Andrei is trying to refute me by saying that in this shooting in front of the Marquis, the laiba was destroyed not with the first shell, but during the entire shooting. but in other shootings it is stated that they were sunk with the first shots! It happened that the sailing ship was sunk with the first shots." That is, the shooting accuracy was simply amazing.
                        And Andrey also refutes me by saying that they counted 6 holes in the hull of the Laib and 3 holes in the sail. So let me remind you, if any of you have forgotten, that the notorious Packinham counted only 5 twelve-inch hits from about 30 cabs in the battleship Orel. And the Russians hit this stinking trap 9 times from a distance of 90 kb - and doesn’t this surprise any of you? And the fact that Andrey is trying to blame that the laiba had hits on the sail - well, her hull was hit 6 times - 2 times more than the sail!
                        and now Andrei refutes me by saying that the Russian sailors of Tsyvinsky’s squadron did not manage to achieve such a result from the first day, but only after studying for the whole summer. So I’ll remind you that during those firings, Russian ships sailed on complex courses - along a loxodrome - mordodrome (combat spiral) - and it is much more difficult to hit in such conditions than from a stationary cannon at the training ground. And it is very difficult to organize accurate shooting of an entire squadron of three battleships compared to shooting just one cannon at a training ground.
                        So you readers still believe Andrei’s tale that at the training grounds of all countries of the world artillerymen were not able to hit armor plates from distances of at least 30-60 cables?
                      4. +2
                        April 13 2024 13: 06
                        And the tantrum started :)))))
                        But in essence - finally, take any artillery textbook and study it. There is an answer to everything you have piled up here.
                2. +2
                  April 13 2024 09: 57
                  Quote: geniy
                  Few people know that the main difficulty in hitting a target is hitting the height, not the width of the target

                  Actually, these are interrelated parameters in relation to a moving target.
                  1. -3
                    April 13 2024 10: 09
                    Actually, these are interrelated parameters in relation to a moving target.

                    Well, you probably don’t know that there is a so-called projectile fall dispersion ellipse. So the ratios there are such that the length of the ellipse is approximately 5-10 times greater than its width. that is, the range dispersion is many times greater than the lateral deviation. And since firing ships in naval battles and battles most often follow parallel courses, the dispersion ellipse is usually located across the target ship. Therefore, the length of the ship or vessel plays almost no role. and the main role in the possibility of falling into the target is played by its height, that is, the height of the side and superstructures.
                    1. +2
                      April 13 2024 10: 29
                      Quote: geniy
                      Well, you probably don’t know that there is a so-called projectile fall dispersion ellipse.

                      Do you really think that people gathered here who cannot read and are not interested in this topic? Reading your comments, it seems that you consider yourself an “honored teacher” among first-graders. I will disappoint you, this is not so.
                      1. -3
                        April 13 2024 13: 28
                        Do you really think that people gathered here who cannot read and are not interested in this topic?
                        You see: everyone can read little books. But it turns out that few people can think and draw correct conclusions from what they read. I am convinced that most of the participants in this discussion have read many more books and articles on these topics than I have. It would seem: if we count purely formally by the number of texts, then almost everyone is much more literate than me. But the thing is, I'm used to solving riddles. But the rest do not and believe in dogmas. Take the same ellipse of hits - it would seem: everyone knows about it. but I’m probably the only person on earth who not only read, but took and checked with calculations this ellipse at the Tsushima battle. And I just got a phantasmagoric picture. For many years I have been trying to get one of my friends to check my calculations in order to refute them, but he resists with all his might, apparently realizing in advance that the result will be a deadly one. so if you and everyone else don’t consider yourself schoolchildren, then try to calculate for yourself at least the ellipse of shell falls in the Tsushima battle. And I solved a lot of such problems, and often got paradoxical results.
                      2. +1
                        April 13 2024 13: 50
                        Quote: geniy
                        You see: everyone can read little books.

                        Apparently you don't relate to people
                        Quote: geniy
                        then try to calculate for yourself at least the ellipse of shell falls in the battle of Tsushima. And I solved a lot of such problems, and often got paradoxical results.

                        Of course. Without knowing the basics, without delving into the essence of the matter, you make a lot of mistakes in your calculations. This is why you get a paradoxical result. But instead of figuring out where and what you made a mistake, you create conspiracy theories.
                      3. -2
                        April 13 2024 14: 15
                        Of course. Without knowing the basics, without delving into the essence of the matter, you make a lot of mistakes in your calculations. This is why you get a paradoxical result. But instead of figuring out where and what you made a mistake, you create conspiracy theories.
                        I would be very curious to see the results of your calculations of superimposing the ellipse of incidence on ships in Tsushima.
                        I saw your calculations on fuses and found many gross errors in them. I hope to finish the article and publish it, and I invite all other fans of Andrei’s work to do the simplest calculations of superimposing the ellipse of shells falling on ships.
                      4. +1
                        April 13 2024 14: 25
                        Quote: geniy
                        I would be very curious to see the results of your calculations of superimposing the ellipse of incidence on ships in Tsushima

                        And I’m not at all interested in yours.
                        Quote: geniy
                        I hope to finish the article and publish it

                        I could wish for success... if I believed in it even for a second.
                        I repeat, you need to read, not write
                      5. -2
                        April 13 2024 14: 32
                        And I’m not at all interested in yours.

                        but my calculations, which refute yours, will be of great interest to thousands of other readers of this topic.
                      6. +2
                        April 13 2024 15: 08
                        Quote: geniy
                        will interest thousands of other readers

                        why are there thousands, trillions...
                      7. +1
                        April 13 2024 15: 05
                        All these ellipses are from the testing ground. In a naval battle, every shot is fired anew. That's why we need a dreadnought. In order to attach more than one barrel. All these traditional battleships with medium caliber sightings are due to a lack of understanding of the real magnitude of the battle distance. Fischer was still incredibly cool. And this is in conditions of “shooting is a necessary evil.”
                      8. +2
                        April 13 2024 15: 11
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        That's why we need a dreadnought. In order to attach more than one barrel.

                        What's the difference? :))))) Nobody bothers you to shoot from 4 barrels of medium artillery, for example. In fact, an advantage can be achieved by firing a simultaneous salvo, when all 4 guns fire at the same time, but on dreadnoughts this did not appear immediately
                      9. 0
                        April 14 2024 06: 52
                        At a long distance? What about the dispersion ellipse? In a medium caliber it is completely different from a large one. Where for a medium-sized one the distance is maximum, for a large one it’s quite average.
                      10. 0
                        April 14 2024 07: 12
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        What about the dispersion ellipse?

                        Why is he here? :)))
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        Where for a medium-sized one the distance is maximum, for a large one it’s quite average.

                        If we take, say, 70 cables, then for 152 mm/50 one probable deviation is 26,4 fathoms, 305 mm/52 - 36 fathoms (according to Goncharov). But battleships were created for combat at much shorter distances, and fought on them in both the Spanish-American and Russian-Japanese wars. If there was a need to fight at a long distance, they shot with the main caliber.
                      11. 0
                        April 14 2024 09: 54
                        The evolution of linear corsleys in 1906 went in the wrong direction.... Fischer calculated the wrong thing.
                      12. 0
                        April 14 2024 10: 18
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        Fischer thought wrong.

                        You are simply giving the dispersion ellipse an importance that it did not have :))) Fischer was deeply invested in the dispersion ellipse and the transition to the “big guns only” concept has nothing to do with it.
                        Firstly, it was clear that the bet on medium-caliber rapid-fire artillery was not justified. Secondly, there was a noticeable increase in battle distances relative to those expected. Thirdly, large guns are obviously better for shooting than medium-caliber ones. This includes the height of the water column (a six-inch column behind an enemy ship will be practically invisible) and a long shooting range. And the fact that their dispersion ellipse is slightly higher is not important at all.
                      13. 0
                        April 14 2024 15: 03
                        Just because I mentioned this ellipse doesn't mean I attach any significance to it. This ellipse plays a role on land. To calculate the probability of hitting a target. At sea, this is simply a characteristic of the gun’s accuracy. To understand whether the targeting for this particular salvo is correct or not. You can tell me everything else. I'll read it. Even things that are not relevant or are far-fetched.
                      14. 0
                        April 14 2024 15: 29
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        This ellipse plays a role on land. To calculate the probability of hitting a target. At sea, this is simply a characteristic of the gun’s accuracy.

                        At sea it also plays a role, because the spread over long distances is great. 36 fathoms - 6 feet each - is still 65 meters, and this is only one probable deviation. And there are 8 of them, as I understand it. That is, it is quite possible to confuse the reason for the overflight/underflight. Why do they tend to shoot at long distances with salvos of at least 4 guns?
                      15. 0
                        April 14 2024 16: 03
                        That's what we're talking about. That you need several guns. Moreover, the same caliber as you shoot.
                      16. 0
                        April 14 2024 18: 13
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        That's what we're talking about. That you need several guns. Moreover, the same caliber as you shoot.

                        At relatively short distances this is not necessary. Shooting battleships is not just a medium caliber, the main one for a long time simply did not have a normal rate of fire to fire. And in order to “put it into operation”, it is enough to know the parameters of the target, that is, if you shoot with a medium caliber, there is no problem hitting with the main one.
                        They abandoned the medium one not because it is bad in terms of shooting, and not because it was impossible to fire volleys from it (it is quite possible), but because the lethality is low, the range is short and a separate glavart is needed to control each caliber
                      17. 0
                        April 15 2024 02: 44
                        Oh my goth! Yes, Fischer started by increasing the shooting distance. And I immediately realized that I had to shoot (and aim to kill) with one caliber. And big. And I realized, simply from the exercises, that this distance would only increase. Otherwise, we would have stopped at 9-10 inches.
                      18. +3
                        April 13 2024 15: 13
                        Quote: geniy
                        ellipse falls

                        I read about the dispersion ellipse, but where can I read what a “dip ellipse” is?
                      19. +1
                        April 14 2024 07: 17
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        where can I read what an “ellipse of incidences” is?

                        Uuuuu, this is a terrible artillery secret :))))) I’ll tell you, of course, only you - no one, okay?
                        When the shells suddenly start flying
                        Quote: geniy
                        not at all along a ballistic trajectory in the final section

                        Then their dispersion ellipse faints from such surprise. So we get an ellipse of falls.
                      20. +1
                        April 13 2024 14: 19
                        Quote: geniy
                        calculate at least the ellipse of shell falls in the battle of Tsushima. And I solved a lot of such problems, and often got paradoxical results.

                        What are these paradoxical results?
                      21. -2
                        April 13 2024 14: 28
                        What are these paradoxical results?

                        If specifically based on the ellipse, then the percentage of hits calculated according to Packingham wildly does not agree with the calculation based on the ellipse of falls. I would really like to see the calculations of other experts to see and check the discrepancies.
                        but there are many other topics - according to my research, it turns out that the shells did not fly along a ballistic trajectory at all in the final section.
                        and a lot of other things.
                      22. +1
                        April 13 2024 14: 31
                        Quote: geniy
                        If specifically based on the ellipse, then the percentage of hits calculated according to Packingham wildly does not agree with the calculation based on the ellipse of falls.

                        This doesn't mean anything until we see the calculations.

                        Quote: geniy
                        I would really like to see the calculations of other experts to see and check the discrepancies.

                        Show me yours and I'll show you mine.
                      23. +2
                        April 13 2024 15: 12
                        Quote: DenVB
                        This doesn't mean anything until we see the calculations.

                        This just shows that the person does not understand what he is counting, mixing up the dispersion ellipse and the number of hits
                      24. +3
                        April 13 2024 15: 18
                        Quote: geniy
                        According to my research, it turns out that the shells did not fly along a ballistic trajectory at all in the final section.

                        Did the Japanese really use analogues of “Excalibur” and “Krasnopol” already in 1905?
                        Or maybe they immediately sucked at Hwasong-12...
                      25. 0
                        April 17 2024 08: 34
                        Did the Japanese really use analogues of “Excalibur” and “Krasnopol” already in 1905?

                        Everything was much simpler.
                        Firstly, when firing at sea, the artillerymen used the mathematical method of extrapolation - and they probably didn’t even know this name. That is, as I already explained to Andrey - each previous shot is a zeroing for the next one. And besides, knowing at least two previous aiming points - two vertical aiming angles and two previous horizontal aiming angles, the artillery officer in his head or on paper made the simplest extrapolation calculation - that is, he assumed that, for example, in one minute in the near future, according to the law arithmetic progression, the data from previous aiming angles will change slightly. That is, extrapolation allows us to predict the near future. And so the officer informed the gunner or the senior officer did this, using the Geisler system and a similar system of the Japanese, he reported new aiming angles. At the same time, the shooting accuracy was very high. The artillerymen of the century before last managed to achieve amazing shooting accuracy. firstly, they used gunfire - that is, they ensured that all the guns on one side fired in such a way as to hit the same point. secondly, they used special devices to improve shooting accuracy. People often call me names here, so I won’t tell you anything about these devices that have remained secret from society for almost one and a half hundred years.
                        and thirdly: the artillerymen of the past, thanks to the above mentioned techniques, achieved amazing shooting accuracy of about 50% without any excaliburs and red fields, although their distances were many times shorter - on average 30 cabs.
                        but here the following factor came into play - due to a special complex of physical phenomena, the effect of naval artillery shells worsened tens or even hundreds of times. but this complex of physical phenomena is still classified for one and a half hundred years. and since I am constantly insulted on this forum, I will not tell you anything about the real effect of the shells. but the point is that when they arrived and accurately hit the enemy ship, due to the reduced effect, the shells in most cases did not penetrate anything but left barely noticeable scratches on the armor, visible only with a magnifying glass. BUT observers did not inspect the ships with magnifying glasses after the battles and did not see traces of shell hits, especially such fools as Packingham. And this always resulted in a multiple, almost tenfold, underestimation of the number of hits and accuracy: instead of 30%-50%, they officially put 2-3%. So there was nothing supernatural, and all of you experts are simply guided by false falsified data.
                      26. 0
                        April 17 2024 18: 03
                        Quote: geniy
                        Firstly, when firing at sea, the artillerymen used the mathematical method of extrapolation - and they probably didn’t even know this name.

                        As you have been told many times before, you do not know or understand shooting methods.

                        Quote: geniy
                        firstly, they used gunfire - that is, they ensured that all the guns on one side fired so as to hit the same point

                        Where can I read how this was done?

                        Quote: geniy
                        secondly, they used special devices to improve shooting accuracy.

                        What kind of devices? Where can I read about them?

                        Quote: geniy
                        and since I am constantly insulted on this forum, I won’t tell you anything

                        You didn't say anything even when they took you more seriously...

                        Quote: geniy
                        And this always resulted in a multiple, almost tenfold, underestimation of the number of hits and accuracy: instead of 30%-50%, they officially put 2-3%.

                        How are the classics?
                        What is your evidence?.. (c)

                        By the way, do you remember what Hitchens' Razor is?
                      27. 0
                        April 16 2024 14: 14
                        Damn it, I already thought that the conspiracy of the artillerymen, backed by the deep-sea ones, had been uncovered! Artillerymen need to spend as many shells as possible (because the more they spend, the more they will order). And deep-sea ones are interested in the creations of land-based ones (maybe in target vessels of the victim)
        4. 0
          April 13 2024 06: 24
          To take into account the angle with the normal, a log structure was used at an appropriate angle to the director. And this influence is more interesting for developing a deck armor system, rather than studying the properties of a monolithic thick slab. Mathematics and solid body mechanics are at work here.
      2. +2
        April 13 2024 15: 27
        Quote: geniy
        And to hide this, range shots are always fired at very close distances - to hide mysterious phenomena from the people.

        Well, the projectile precesses in flight. Therefore, at real fire distances there is no guarantee that at the moment of impact it will be oriented strictly coaxially with the trajectory. Anyhow it can get there. Is this what you mean by “mysterious phenomena” that the authorities hide from the people?
        1. 0
          April 13 2024 15: 40
          Well, the projectile precesses in flight. Therefore, at real fire distances there is no guarantee that at the moment of impact it will be oriented strictly coaxially with the trajectory. Anyhow it can get there. Is this what you mean by “mysterious phenomena” that the authorities hide from the people?

          ABOUT! Amazing!! Well, dear DenVB, you have already named one mysterious phenomenon! True, there are still a few others left - unnamed... So the projectile will hit the armor not strictly along the ballistic trajectory, but at a slightly different angle - very different from the correct trajectory? Moreover, this angle is completely unpredictable. What do you think - isn’t this the secret of the fact that artillerymen are constantly shooting at armor plates from very short distances? That is, as the firing distance increases, the precession angles increase and the result of armor penetration becomes completely unpredictable and different all the time. And so, in order to hide this from the people and from the sailors, artillerymen always shoot at firing ranges from very short distances - almost point-blank. Therefore, all calculations using the Jacob de Marra formula - for real distances - are a complete lie and profanation.
          1. 0
            April 13 2024 15: 45
            Quote: geniy
            What do you think - isn’t this the secret of the fact that artillerymen are constantly shooting at armor plates from very short distances?

            I don’t know, maybe this is the case too.

            Well, the fact that it’s not so easy to get there also plays a role. I recently posted a video of British tank scientists firing Challenger 2 at a safe the size of a washing machine. The distance was less than a kilometer. Two shots - both missed. And this, as we are assured, is perhaps the most accurate of the existing tank guns.
            1. -2
              April 13 2024 15: 55
              I don’t know, maybe this is the case too.
              Well, it’s gratifying that you at least acknowledge the very existence of such a phenomenon as precession. Do you happen to know other physical processes occurring with projectiles in flight?
              And forgive me for a quick question: maybe you know the magnitude of the precession angles? Or have you at least heard something about it? Do you know how these same precession angles are determined or calculated? Please note that I am not even asking about other phenomena in external ballistics that you have not named. So one previous opponent was offended that I considered everyone to be schoolchildren. So answer me, who here knows at least something about the magnitude of precession angles - if you are not schoolchildren.
              1. +1
                April 13 2024 16: 04
                Quote: geniy
                Do you happen to know other physical processes occurring with projectiles in flight?

                No, I do not know. Well, I remember deviation as a consequence of precession and Coriolis acceleration, but this does not noticeably affect armor penetration.

                Quote: geniy
                Do you know how these same precession angles are determined or calculated?

                No, I do not remember. We need to look into textbooks. And why?
            2. 0
              April 20 2024 17: 40
              If you watch tank biathlon, you see one interesting thing. Tankers who hit targets on the training ground miss when the target imitates a low-hanging helicopter. They just raised the target about five meters. Needless to say, there are selected specialists there. So it is with this Challenger. A slightly unusual situation, and goodbye.
          2. +1
            April 13 2024 16: 06
            Quote: geniy
            ABOUT! Amazing!! Well, dear DenVB, you have already named one mysterious phenomenon! True, there are still a few others left - unnamed...

            That is, you are rediscovering the laws of physics and trying to present it as some kind of “secret with seven seals.” By the way, when calculating and constructing the ellipse, did you take as starting points all the ships that fired at the lead ship 2TOE or something?
            1. +2
              April 13 2024 16: 35
              Quote: 27091965i
              That is, you are rediscovering the laws of physics and trying to present it as some kind of “secret with seven seals.”

              Imagine what will happen when a friend gets to Kozlovsky’s textbook. laughing
              1. +2
                April 13 2024 17: 21
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Imagine what will happen when a friend gets to Kozlovsky’s textbook

                I think I got to more than just Kozlovsky’s textbook. Only for some reason he believes that these “secret books” are not available to other people.
            2. 0
              April 14 2024 16: 44
              By the way, when calculating and constructing the ellipse, did you take as starting points all the ships that fired at the lead ship 2TOE or something?

              In my calculations, I took a certain average battleship - it doesn’t matter Russian or Japanese - because the length and width of both are not too different and these minor differences did not affect the result of the calculation in any way. Moreover, I took into account that only one battleship is involved as a target - it doesn’t matter whose side it is: Russian or Japanese - of course, only the percentage of hits differs.
              And I included this percentage of hits for the entire Tsushima battle in the initial data for the calculation, because it was the percentage of shells hitting different areas of the dispersion ellipse that determined its size.
              and I don’t tell all readers the results of my calculation because almost everyone here considers me a dropout - so I want to see if anyone else besides me can perform this simple calculation. So don't ask me for this result - I want to see your attempts first. Can any of you perform the simplest calculation accessible to a primary school student?
              1. +1
                April 14 2024 17: 31
                Quote: geniy
                And I included this percentage of hits for the entire Battle of Tsushima in the initial data for the calculation

                How did you get this “hit percentage”?
                Based on what data they were derived?
                1. 0
                  April 14 2024 18: 07
                  What does it mean based on what data? I didn’t deduce anything myself
                  About thirty-five years ago, from the magazine Naval, an article by Kofman Tsushima, analysis against myths, and now just from Wikipedia
                  Approximate data on the percentage of hits is 3,2% for the Japanese[12], 1,2[12]…2,25% for the Russians.
                  I made my calculation simply to check this data and found out that in principle such percentages could not exist.
                  1. +1
                    April 14 2024 19: 03
                    Quote: geniy
                    I made my calculation simply to check this data and found out that in principle such percentages could not exist.

                    OK, let's leave it as V.K. I considered these % out of brackets...
                    Based on what initial data did you make your calculation, which refuted Kofman’s conclusions?

                    By the way, for a 180-mm projectile, at a distance of 50 cabs, the correction is 2,6
                    1. 0
                      April 14 2024 19: 15
                      OK, let's leave it as V.K. I considered these % out of brackets...

                      and sho: do you also have doubts that Kofman correctly calculated the percentage of hits of the Japanese and Russians in the Battle of Tsushima?
                      Based on what initial data did you make your calculation, which refuted Kofman’s conclusions?

                      I told you in Russian that I simply took the percentage of hits ready calculated by Kofman and, based on this figure, stupidly calculated what the area and all the dimensions of the dispersion ellipse of projectile impacts should be to correspond to this percentage of hits.
                      1. 0
                        April 14 2024 19: 23
                        Quote: geniy
                        And what

                        And all... :)

                        Quote: geniy
                        Do you also have doubts that Kofman correctly calculated the percentage of hits of the Japanese and Russians in the Battle of Tsushima?

                        You would have them too if you knew how to analyze data.
                        VC. gave an assessment, but nothing more...

                        Quote: geniy
                        I stupidly calculated what the area and all the dimensions of the ellipse of dispersion of projectile impacts should be to correspond to this percentage of hits

                        And what are the dimensions of the dispersion ellipse for Russian and Japanese shells?
                        The calculation method won't hurt either...
                      2. 0
                        April 14 2024 19: 38
                        VC. gave an assessment, but nothing more...

                        What does it mean: Kofman simply gave an assessment?
                        after all, with his (deeply erroneous in my opinion) calculation, he actually determined the shooting accuracy of the Russian and Japanese fleets. and now, based on Kofman’s percentages, many amateurs scold Russian artillerymen for their inability to shoot.
                        Do you also have doubts that Kofman correctly calculated the percentage of hits of the Japanese and Russians in the Battle of Tsushima?

                        You would have them too if you knew how to analyze data.

                        Oh, what are you saying! But 35 years ago I determined that Kofman’s calculation is based on false data and therefore only laymen believe him.
                      3. +1
                        April 14 2024 19: 55
                        Quote: geniy
                        Oh, what are you saying! But 35 years ago I determined that Kofman’s calculation is based on false data and therefore only laymen believe him.

                        Will there be evidence or, as usual, “blah blah blah”?
                      4. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 25
                        Will there be evidence or, as usual, “blah blah blah”?

                        Evidence of what exactly do you want to see? If there is evidence of Kofman’s refutations, then I hope to publish them SOMEDAY...
                        but not right now
                      5. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 30
                        Quote: geniy
                        Evidence of what exactly do you want to see?

                        Your evidence of Kofman's error...

                        Quote: geniy
                        If there is evidence of Kofman's refutations, then I hope to publish them SOMEDAY...
                        but not right now

                        So it’s still “blah blah blah”... laughing
                      6. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 34
                        Your evidence of Kofman's error...

                        ABOUT! I hope this will be a song! For many decades I have been dreaming of smearing it across the plane along with everyone who believes in it.
                        But not everyone gets around to it - there are such a huge number of interesting topics!
                        So, what complaints do you personally have against Kofman?
                      7. +1
                        April 14 2024 20: 45
                        Quote: geniy
                        ABOUT! I hope this will be a song! For many decades I have been dreaming of smearing it across the plane along with everyone who believes in it.
                        But not everyone gets around to it - there are such a huge number of interesting topics!

                        Something tells me that your dreams will not come true...

                        Quote: geniy
                        So, what complaints do you personally have against Kofman?

                        I have? To Leoniditch? Claims?
                        You are confusing something ...
                      8. 0
                        April 16 2024 08: 16
                        You would have them too if you knew how to analyze data.

                        From your words, I understood that you personally had some doubts and they related to Kofman’s calculations, but you immediately retracted your words.
                        I have? To Leoniditch? Claims?
                        You are confusing something ...
                      9. +1
                        April 16 2024 18: 39
                        Quote: geniy
                        From your words, I understood that you personally had some doubts and they related to Kofman’s calculations, but you immediately retracted your words.

                        I came up with it myself, I believed it myself...
                        This is typical for you.
                      10. 0
                        April 14 2024 19: 45
                        And what are the dimensions of the dispersion ellipse for Russian and Japanese shells?

                        But for the purity of the experiment, first you perform your calculation - so that the calculations are independent of each other, and then we will compare the data from my calculation and yours and see who is more correct...
                        The calculation method won't hurt either...

                        So it seems you accused me of amateurism and ignorance of the basics? But 35 years ago I created my own method for calculating the ellipse of projectile falls based on the percentage of hits. So I want to see if you can suggest your own calculation method for this...
                      11. +1
                        April 14 2024 20: 01
                        Quote: geniy
                        But for the purity of the experiment, first you perform your calculation - so that the calculations are independent of each other, and then we will compare the data from my calculation and yours and see who is more correct...

                        Sorry, but why do I need it?
                        You are the one who overthrows everything with us: it’s up to you to prove your “discoveries”...

                        Quote: geniy
                        So it seems you accused me of amateurism and ignorance of the basics?

                        Am I wrong? :)

                        Quote: geniy
                        But 35 years ago I created my own method for calculating the ellipse of projectile falls based on the percentage of hits.

                        So introduce it to the masses...

                        Quote: geniy
                        So I want to see if you can suggest your own calculation method for this...

                        I see no point in wasting time on false ideas.
                      12. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 14
                        Sorry, but why do I need it?
                        You are the one who overthrows everything with us: it’s up to you to prove your “discoveries”...

                        I have so many different discoveries that they just stand in a long line waiting for me to write and publish them.
                      13. +1
                        April 14 2024 20: 24
                        Quote: geniy
                        I have so many different discoveries that they just stand in a long line waiting for me to write and publish them.

                        I hope they give you a Nobilevka for this...
                      14. 0
                        April 16 2024 07: 59
                        I hope they give you a Nobilevka for this...

                        Yes, of course they will. And then they’ll catch up and give you some more! But this is a joke.
                        But seriously, I have about a hundred global inventions such as preventing the explosion of all volcanoes on earth and in particular Yellowstone, hypersonic aircraft, my method of treating cancer, an adiabatic radial engine and a couple of hundred scientific discoveries.
                      15. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 20
                        I see no point in wasting time on false ideas.

                        So you think calculating the ellipse of projectile falls is a fraudulent idea? Why then are you asking me so persistently about him? and is it not because you refuse to make the same calculation that you yourself are not capable of it? Well, just like the fox from the fable: I don’t really need those grapes - they’re generally sour and disgusting!
                      16. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 27
                        Quote: geniy
                        So you think calculating the ellipse of projectile falls is a fraudulent idea?

                        If you are talking about the dispersion ellipse, then all this is in the shooting tables.

                        Quote: geniy
                        Why then are you asking me so persistently about him? and is it not because you refuse to make the same calculation that you yourself are not capable of it?

                        It’s interesting to see how you “eat the brains” of such people... :)
                      17. 0
                        April 16 2024 07: 52
                        If you are talking about the dispersion ellipse, then all this is in the shooting tables.

                        That's the point - that in a battle there is a real actual ellipse of dispersion of projectile falls.
                        and I was not calculating the real ellipse at all, but the TOTAL one for the entire battle, and my ellipse showed how poorly the aim was taken when shooting - that is, what should be the spread of shell impacts in order to get such percentages of hits as those of Kofman.
                      18. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 22
                        Am I wrong? :)

                        I hope to publish one or two of my articles soon and then we will see which of us is an amateur.
                      19. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 27
                        Quote: geniy
                        I hope to publish one or two of my articles soon and then we will see which of us is an amateur.

                        Let's see... :)
                      20. +2
                        April 16 2024 14: 11
                        Anecdote
                        a shepherd tending a flock of sheep, a guy drives up in a car, leans out of the window and says:
                        “If I tell you how many sheep you have in your flock, will you give me one?”
                        A slightly surprised shepherd replies:
                        “Of course, why not.
                        Then this guy takes out a laptop, connects it to his mobile phone, establishes a connection to the Internet, goes to the NASA website, selects a GPS satellite connection, finds out the exact coordinates of the place where he is, and sends them to another NASA satellite, which scans this area and gives ultra-high resolution photos. This guy then transmits the image to one of the laboratories in Hamburg, which within a few seconds sends him a confirmation message that the image has been processed and the resulting data has been stored in the database. Via ODBC, it connects to the MS-SQL database, copies the data into an EXCEL table and begins to perform calculations. Within minutes, he receives the result and prints 150 pages in color on his miniature printer. Finally he says to the shepherd:
                        — You have 1586 sheep in your herd.
                        - Exactly! That's how many sheep I have in my herd. Well, choose.
                        The man chooses one and loads it into the trunk. And then the shepherd said to him:
                        “Listen, if I guess who you are, will you return it to me?”
                        After a little thought, the man says:
                        - Come on.
                        “You work as a consultant,” the shepherd unexpectedly gives out.
                        "It's true, damn it!" And how did you guess?
                        “It was easy to do,” says the shepherd, “you showed up when no one called you, you want to get paid for an answer that I already know to a question that no one asked you, and besides, you don’t know a damn thing about my work. SO GIVE MY DOG BACK
                        ***
                        Dear colleague, you are doing exactly the same thing
                      21. +1
                        April 16 2024 14: 27
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        you showed up when no one called you, you want to get paid for an answer that I already know to a question that no one asked you, and besides, you don’t know a damn thing about my work. SO GIVE MY DOG BACK

                        good good good drinks
                      22. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 10
                        You would have them too if you knew how to analyze data.

                        But I’m curious: what doubts do you have about the percentage of hits calculated by Kofman? They say you analyzed it better than me...
                      23. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 13
                        Quote: geniy
                        But I’m curious: what doubts do you have about the percentage of hits calculated by Kofman?

                        And you yourself don’t guess?
                        There are only two points...
                      24. 0
                        April 14 2024 21: 05
                        And you yourself don’t guess?
                        There are only two points...

                        no, I can’t guess - I don’t even have an idea what you’re thinking about. I still don’t know how to read other people’s thoughts. and in Kofman’s article there were not two points at all - but a lot of different things
                      25. 0
                        April 14 2024 21: 08
                        Quote: geniy
                        no, I don't think so

                        Badly... :(

                        Quote: geniy
                        in Kofman’s article there were not two points at all - but a lot of different things

                        There are two main ones: if you remember how the percentage of hits is calculated, you will understand for yourself...
                      26. 0
                        April 16 2024 07: 47
                        There are two main ones: if you remember how the percentage of hits is calculated, you will understand for yourself...

                        The main two are the number of shots and the number of hits. And do you disagree with Kofman on something? Either in the number of shots or in the number of hits. But I hope that at least with regard to the Japanese you have no doubts about the number of shots? Then only doubt remains about the number of hits. And not only me, but probably the entire audience of Military Review would be curious to hear your version of these numbers.
                      27. +1
                        April 15 2024 08: 24
                        Quote: geniy
                        But I’m curious: what doubts do you have about the percentage of hits calculated by Kofman?

                        for example, that they were taken from the ceiling?
                      28. 0
                        April 16 2024 07: 41
                        Yesterday I simply did not notice your comment, and besides, my military review portal is acting up - it often does not show incoming comments.
                        for example, that they were taken from the ceiling?

                        So you are actually accusing Kofman of providing false data? Can you really refute it yourself?
                      29. +1
                        April 16 2024 08: 14
                        Quote: geniy
                        So you are actually accusing Kofman of providing false data?

                        Neither Kofman nor anyone in the world today has data to calculate the firing accuracy of Japanese or Russian ships in Tsushima. Any such estimate is nothing more than a hypothesis due to the lack of input data. And such estimates should be treated as a hypothesis.
                        Quote: geniy
                        Can you really refute it yourself?

                        There is nothing to refute. In order to calculate the percentage of hits, you need to have the number of shots fired and the number of hits. There is shell consumption against the Japanese, but no data on hits. In Russian it’s the other way around. Neither I, nor Kofman, nor you, nor anyone in general can calculate anything using such initial data.
                      30. -1
                        April 16 2024 08: 40
                        Any such estimate is nothing more than a hypothesis due to the lack of input data. And such estimates should be treated as a hypothesis.

                        Personally, Andrey, I am not going to convince or dissuade you of anything. The degree of your mistakes and delusions is very high, but it has developed over the course of your entire life and many years of persistent work. And it's not your fault at all. You simply do not understand what a huge system of deception has developed regarding military facts, and for many years reading these falsified facts, not only you but also thousands of military history lovers have completely ruined their perception of military events. Therefore, I am writing this text not for you at all, but for the entire Military audience in the small hope that out of thousands of stupid people with ruined logic, there will be at least a few people with a flexible mind. So - you are right that all calculations based on hit percentages are just a hypothesis. And it's really not accurate. But the fact is that all of us in the shipbuilding department were taught that there is no need to make exact calculations - in life and in technology, approximate figures work quite well. For example, a Kalashnikov assault rifle is made with fairly large tolerances - that is, with low accuracy and large gaps. and this prevents small grains of sand from jamming it when shooting. so low precision is sometimes useful. So the calculation of hit percentages was also carried out with low accuracy and a large error. The only difference is that my calculation, I believe, was made with a possible error of no more than 30%, and Kofman’s calculation was made with a gigantic tenfold error of the order of 90%, which greatly underestimated the shooting accuracy and is hugely misleading to all lovers of military history
                      31. 0
                        April 16 2024 09: 27
                        Quote: geniy
                        You simply do not understand what a huge system of deception has developed regarding military facts, and for many years reading these falsified facts, not only you but also thousands of military history lovers have completely ruined their perception of military events.

                        Now we’ve definitely “arrived”. Based on past battles and battles, tactics for conducting future battles were developed and these tactics were taught at the VU and VMU. It turns out that future army officers were taught to fight in “cohorts” and “phalanxes,” and naval officers were taught to fight in “galleys” and “galleons.” Because according to your “version” everything is classified. Sometimes you think about what you write.
                      32. -1
                        April 16 2024 09: 48
                        Now we’ve definitely “arrived”. Based on past battles and battles, tactics for conducting future battles were developed and these tactics were taught at the VU and VMU. It turns out that future army officers were taught to fight

                        Yes, that's it! Well, okay, even if civilians and peaceful lovers of military history were deceived by falsifying data, no one is interested in their opinion anyway. but at the same time they globally deceived all the officers of their own fleet! Of course, the deception of the officers was not complete, but partial. Some honest data was nevertheless reported to the officers. And they didn’t even tell the officers about many of the data!
                        You won't believe this? So I personally came to the naval department of our institute, it seems, more than thirty years ago, around 1992, and talked with its head, a captain of the FIRST RANK, about naval battles. And I mentioned that in the Battle of Jutland the Germans achieved 3,3%, and the British 2,2%. And for him this fact was AMAZING NEWS! He immediately wrote down these numbers and said that he would tell his students about them.
                        But besides this, falsification of data during firing at all firing ranges led to the fact that armor penetration was greatly overestimated, and because of this, the sailors demanded that the thickness of the armor be increased to the limit while reducing the armor area many times over! And thus, dozens of American battleships were built according to the sabotage “all and nothing” system, and as a result, many countries made gigantic financial investments
                      33. 0
                        April 16 2024 10: 00
                        Quote: geniy
                        Of course, the deception of the officers was not complete, but partial. Some honest data was nevertheless reported to the officers. And they didn’t even tell the officers about many of the data!

                        Apparently you are a purely civilian person, and you don’t know the training system in the troops, that’s why you write this. Yes, over the years of service in the Armed Forces, I never realized that I was deceived and various facts were hidden. I wonder why, not only me, but also thousands of other military personnel were trained and taught?
                      34. -1
                        April 16 2024 10: 22
                        Yes, over the years of service in the Armed Forces, I never realized that I was deceived and various facts were hidden.

                        So, not only you personally are the only person in the world, but millions of other officers in all countries of the world have not realized for a hundred years and still do not realize that they are being deceived about the real effect of their weapons.
                        I wonder why, not only me, but also thousands of other military personnel were trained and taught?

                        But in fact, you were all taught to wage a competitive war - that is, whoever acts more correctly will win. and in any war it is important not to not make a single mistake, but most importantly - to make LESS mistakes than the enemy. So the Japanese fleet and their troops made a LARGE NUMBER OF MISTAKES, but the trouble is that the Russian forces made MORE MISTAKES. And if we give an analogy, false training is like a weight tied to the legs of a runner. Yes, he will run slower. but if all other athletes have exactly the same weights attached, then they will all be on equal terms and the strongest will win. And what mistakes they make in doing so will not interest anyone after the victory.
                      35. +1
                        April 16 2024 18: 19
                        Quote: geniy
                        You won't believe this? So I personally came to the naval department of our institute, it seems, more than thirty years ago, around 1992, and talked with its head, a captain of the FIRST RANK, about naval battles. And I mentioned that in the Battle of Jutland the Germans achieved 3,3%, and the British 2,2%. And for him this fact was AMAZING NEWS! He immediately wrote down these numbers and said that he would tell his students about them.

                        Your sailor is either a truant, or an idiot, or a political instructor in the worst sense of the word...
                        Here is a page from Wilson’s book “Battleships in Battle”, 1938 edition, a book that is absolutely not secret...
                      36. 0
                        April 20 2024 17: 59
                        Oh my. Yes, they don’t read military books. They don't read. With VERY rare exceptions. These are the ones who are the first to leave the service. Or they leave on their own.
                      37. +2
                        April 14 2024 20: 20
                        Quote: geniy
                        I simply took the percentage of hits ready calculated by Kofman and, based on this figure, stupidly calculated what the area and all the dimensions of the dispersion ellipse of projectile impacts should be to correspond to this percentage of hits.

                        I don’t really understand how to calculate the dispersion ellipse from the percentage of hits. This can be done (and then very approximately) only based on the results of firing with constant aim from a stationary gun at a stationary target.
                      38. 0
                        April 14 2024 20: 57
                        This can be done (and then very approximately) only based on the results of firing with constant aim from a stationary gun at a stationary target.

                        Yes, in principle, you guessed absolutely correctly. Because first I prove that ships moving even at full speed can be conditionally considered to be absolutely motionless. and both: the shooting ship and the target ship. and the aiming of the guns is unchanged.
                        Maxim, many posts above I already asked this question, but unfortunately I was delayed in answering him.
                      39. 0
                        April 14 2024 21: 07
                        Quote: geniy
                        Because first I prove that ships moving even at full speed can be conditionally considered as absolutely motionless. and both: the shooting ship and the target ship. and the aiming of the guns is unchanged.

                        Well, let's assume. If both ships move on strictly parallel courses at exactly the same speed, without pitching, and methodically fire at each other without changing aiming, then yes, perhaps.

                        But, it seems to me, in the Battle of Tsushima it was not quite like that. Or not even like that at all.
                      40. -1
                        April 14 2024 21: 13
                        Well, let's assume. If both ships follow strictly parallel courses at exactly the same speed, without pitching, and methodically fire at each other without changing aiming, then yes, perhaps.

                        That's it! That's it. in this you are absolutely right.
                        But, it seems to me, in the Battle of Tsushima it was not quite like that. Or not even like that at all.

                        Yes, of course, in Tsushima the Russians and Japanese marched at different speeds and often on converging courses, but 35 years later it’s hard for me to remember, but I somehow realized to myself that the artillerymen still managed to correct the aiming. so the ships were relatively motionless.
                        but how to remove the influence of pitching is a completely different story which I won’t tell, but maybe I’ll tell you...
                      41. +2
                        April 14 2024 21: 16
                        Quote: geniy
                        but 35 years later it’s hard for me to remember, but I somehow realized to myself that the artillerymen still managed to correct the aiming. so the ships were relatively motionless.

                        No... It's just the finish line.
                        Michal Nikolaich, re-login. laughing
                      42. 0
                        April 14 2024 21: 41
                        Michal Nikolaich, re-login. laughing

                        I don't know who this is.
                      43. +2
                        April 14 2024 21: 43
                        Quote: geniy
                        I don't know who this is.

                        Zadornov... laughing
                      44. +1
                        April 15 2024 11: 03
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Zadornov...

                        Maxim, why are you offending a good person? Here we have Petrosyanism in its purest form
                      45. +1
                        April 14 2024 21: 17
                        Quote: geniy
                        but somehow I realized to myself that the artillerymen still managed to correct the aiming. so the ships were relatively motionless.

                        No, they weren't. This is a completely different task, and what you get in this way will not have anything to do with the dispersion ellipse (in its generally accepted artillery understanding).
                      46. 0
                        April 14 2024 21: 33
                        No, they weren't. This is a completely different task, and what you get in this way will not have anything to do with the dispersion ellipse (in its generally accepted artillery understanding).

                        Well, I’m not going to explain in detail now what how and why, because you are all wasting my time - the article is only half written. and there is also a previous article about the archives... but in a nutshell, in fact, in a naval battle, not only the movement of ships, but also many other factors: the pitching and destruction of guns and much more. but the essence of my calculation is that I simply excluded all factors from consideration altogether, and just made a calculation of the size of the area and the size of the ellipse of projectile falls so that it would exactly correspond to any chosen percentage of hits, even by Kofman, even by Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov. and based on this calculated size of the ellipse, I just look at whether it corresponds to common sense or not
                        that is, all of you, my opponents, go from beginning to end: first, you try to take into account many factors of artillery action and, based on this, calculate the size of the ellipse - which is impossible.
                        and I went from end to beginning: having received the percentage of hits, I tried to adjust the size of the ellipse for it and check its compliance with common sense.
                      47. +1
                        April 14 2024 21: 51
                        Quote: geniy
                        and I went from end to beginning: having received the percentage of hits, I tried to adjust the size of the ellipse for it and check its compliance with common sense.

                        You can go from the end to the beginning, or from the middle. In any case, you will have to determine the “median deviation of a given moment.”
                      48. +2
                        April 15 2024 08: 23
                        Quote: geniy
                        and I went from the end to the beginning: getting a percentage of hits

                        It’s scary to even imagine how, without the consumption of shells (on Russian ships) and without the number of actual hits (due to the death of Russian ships), you managed to determine the percentage of hits...
                        It’s even scarier to imagine how you managed to reduce your mistakes solely to an ellipse.
                      49. +2
                        April 15 2024 10: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It’s scary to even imagine how, without the consumption of shells (on Russian ships) and without the number of actual hits (due to the death of Russian ships), you managed to determine the percentage of hits...

                        You shouldn’t be so, alternative history is sometimes interesting to read. In addition, these views give others the opportunity to consider this issue in more detail and understand what not to do and what the mistake is.
                      50. +2
                        April 15 2024 11: 00
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        You shouldn’t be saying that, alternative history is sometimes interesting to read

                        But this is not an alternative history. Man has alternative physics :))))))
                        But seriously, for some reason two words come to mind: “spring” and “exacerbation.”
                      51. -1
                        April 15 2024 12: 30
                        It’s scary to even imagine how, without the consumption of shells (on Russian ships) and without the number of actual hits (due to the death of Russian ships), you managed to determine the percentage of hits...

                        First of all: I personally didn’t define anything for hit percentage at all. All this was calculated before me by my predecessors, for example Kofman and others.
                        secondly, there is such a magical technique as approximate calculations. because often in many cases absolutely accurate calculations are not necessary at all - more often it is enough to know the approximate value. for example, human hands can determine the difference in weight of two objects with an accuracy of no better than one third - that is, with an error of 30%. And you, Andrey, didn’t study at the shipbuilding institute and don’t know that if any student made very accurate calculations, he was immediately given a bad mark for an accurate calculation if there were more than three significant figures. and for understanding it is enough that the error is about 10%.
                        and the approximate consumption of shells on the front Russian battleships was approximately determined by the fact that the remaining battleship Orel spent almost all the shells completely from the aft undamaged turret, which means the rest were about the same. and all this is easily summed up to obtain an approximate figure.
                        The number of hits is also calculated. data is taken on the number of hits in Orel. then it is conventionally accepted that Borodino and Alexander, who led most of the battle, probably received much more Eagle - other historians believe that it was 1,5 times, but I personally believe that it was only 1,2 times. They also accept that Suvorov received much more hits than all of them - about 1,5 times more than Borodino (personally, I think it’s only 1,2 times more). Then all this is summed up together with single hits on Oslyabya and other Russian ships, and based on these two approximate total figures, the APPROXIMATE percentage of hits is calculated by division. Don't you really know this?
                        But the trick here is that there are three completely different numbers of hits by Japanese main battery shells in Orel: Packingham counted only 5 main battery hits, Japanese engineers 12, and engineer Kostenko - 43 hits. so everyone chooses what they like.
                      52. +1
                        April 15 2024 13: 01
                        Quote: geniy
                        All this was calculated before me by my predecessors, for example Kofman and others.

                        Wherein
                        Quote: geniy
                        Packingham counted only 5 main battery hits, Japanese engineers 12, and engineer Kostenko 43 hits. so everyone chooses what they like.

                        That is, you chose what you like. And not what actually happened.
                        Quote: geniy
                        and the approximate consumption of shells on the front Russian battleships was approximately determined by the fact that the remaining battleship Orel spent almost all the shells completely from the aft undamaged turret, which means the rest were about the same.

                        Here are just a few:
                        1) According to the Japanese, who scrupulously counted the remaining shells on the Orel, it turned out that out of the 240 12-inch shells allotted to him according to the state, he used up as many as 52
                        2) Do you seriously think that, for example, the Suvorov, which was knocked out an hour after the start of the battle, and the Eagle, which survived its first day, spent the same number of shells?
                      53. -1
                        April 15 2024 13: 34
                        1) According to the Japanese, who scrupulously counted the remaining shells on the Orel, it turned out that out of the 240 12-inch shells allotted to him according to the state, he used up as many as 52

                        You naively accepted completely false Japanese data on faith.
                        And according to Kostenko’s figures, 52 shells remained only in the bow turret. But it was badly damaged at the very beginning of the battle - one barrel was torn off and 331 kilogram shells were fired from the second by hand - that is, they fired very slowly, which is why quite a lot of shells remained - 52 out of 126. But only 4 remained in the rear turret shell out of 126 - that is, the ammunition in the aft turret was almost completely expended, which means that Borodino and Alexander also had most of their ammunition expended. With Suvorov, it is clear that most of them remained. but with the rest of the Russian battleships it’s easier.
                      54. +1
                        April 15 2024 14: 11
                        Quote: geniy
                        You naively accepted completely false Japanese data on faith.

                        Really?
                        Quote: geniy
                        And according to Kostenko’s figures

                        And according to Kostenko’s figures, published in the first edition of his “memoirs”, EMNIP hit 300 12-dm caliber shells. He knocked them down to 42 later... And in general, Kostenko is shamelessly confused about the numbers, for example, giving, for example, the overload of the "Eagle" first one (in the memoirs) then another (in the testimony of the investigative commission).
                        The Japanese made their numbers for themselves, they kept them secret from others, and there was no point in misleading themselves.
                        Quote: geniy
                        But it was badly damaged at the very beginning of the battle - one barrel was torn off and the second was fired by lifting 331 kilogram shells by hand - that is, they shot very slowly

                        About “manually” - it was funny, but that’s not the point. And the fact is that the Russian battleships in the battle on July 28 spent from 78 to 104 12-inch shells per battleship, despite the fact that the duration of the battle in ZhM and Tsushima did not differ much. And taking into account the fact that the “Eagle”’s bow turret had problems with feeding shells and one gun was knocked out of action, and the aft turret had a range limitation as a result of damage, EMNIP 52 shells, according to Japanese documents, look much more realistic than Kostenko’s 184 shells.
                        However, my personal version is different - based on the calculations that I cited here https://topwar.ru/186664-ob-intensivnosti-russkoj-strelby-v-cusime-ili-o-tom-pomoglo-li-zp-rozhestvenskomu -vydelenie-5-luchshih-ego-bronenoscev-v-bystrohodnoe-krylo.html
                        Orel expended 96 12-dm caliber shells.
                        That is, even for the “Eagle” the number of shells fired is a mystery; one can only build versions. Against this background, your statement
                        Quote: geniy
                        but with the rest of the Russian battleships it’s easier.

                        Sounds just enchanting
                      55. -1
                        April 15 2024 14: 24
                        About “manually” - it was funny, but that’s not the point.

                        Well, if you are not an engineer, and do not have the appropriate education and do not understand technology, then you can be forgiven for laughing at what you do not understand.
                        The fact is that on any ship of those times, almost all mechanisms were duplicated by hand drive. For example, the steering wheel had not only a hydraulic and electric drive, but also a manual one. Likewise, the main caliber turrets, in the event of failure of the mechanical drive, could be rotated manually by the force of many people using special levers - swings. Likewise, lifting shells manually should not be understood stupidly literally as with human hands. in fact, there is a winch with a manual drive and a gearbox, which reduces the lifting speed several times, but gives a gain in strength.
                      56. +1
                        April 15 2024 14: 52
                        Quote: geniy
                        Well, if you are not an engineer, and do not have the appropriate education and do not understand technology, then you can be forgiven for laughing at what you do not understand.

                        I can be forgiven for laughing at you, since the Eagle had a left gun and a right charger installed in the bow turret. Accordingly, shells and charges were supplied to the surviving right gun by the left charger :)))
                      57. -1
                        April 15 2024 15: 11
                        the "Eagle" had its left gun and right charger mounted in its bow turret. Accordingly, shells and charges were supplied to the surviving right gun by the left charger :)))
                        So I’m talking again about your complete misunderstanding of ship devices. I have no desire now to understand in detail how and what happened there. But the essence of the operation of all iron mechanical devices is that the slightest bending of just a few millimeters can tightly jam any device, so it is not surprising that the right charger was tightly jammed while the left one continued to move. but as I already said for smart people, every device on the ship necessarily had a backup manual drive. So, at the Eagle’s bow turret, the left charger could be raised manually many times slower than with a mechanical drive.
                        but there could be another option. Maybe you, Andrey, don’t distinguish between the words right and left. so, the left loader raised the projectile and powder charges into the turret, but not to the right but to the LEFT gun. and this means that shells and charges were needed
                        MANUALLY lift from the charger and also MANUALLY carry it to the right gun with a force of approximately 8 people.
                      58. 0
                        April 15 2024 16: 08
                        Quote: geniy
                        So I’m talking again about your complete misunderstanding of ship devices. I have no desire now to understand in detail how and what happened there.

                        That is, you are the one who does not have an understanding of the operation of ship devices.
                        Quote: geniy
                        so, the left loader raised the projectile and powder charges into the turret, but not to the right but to the LEFT gun.

                        Naturally.
                        Quote: geniy
                        and this means that shells and charges were needed
                        MANUALLY lift from the charger and also MANUALLY transfer to the right gun

                        How exactly they had to be transported from the left charger to the right gun is an interesting question (I would have seen how eight geniuses retrieved a 331,7 kg projectile less than a meter long in the turret), but the fact is that the main problem is lifting shells and charges with muscular force to the height of several inter-deck spaces is excluded.
                      59. 0
                        April 18 2024 09: 19
                        How exactly they had to be transported from the left charger to the right gun is an interesting question (I would have seen how eight geniuses retrieved a 331,7 kg projectile less than a meter long in the turret), but the fact is that the main problem is lifting shells and charges with muscular force to the height of several inter-deck spaces is excluded.

                        This ignorance only speaks of your illiteracy in some technical matters.
                        Firstly, the transportation of the projectile from the magazine by the left loader to the opposite right gun was divided into two parts: first, vertically lift the shell from the magazine to the guns in the turret, and then move it horizontally to the right gun. So: Neither Novikov Surf nor Kostenko described this process in detail. but there is no doubt that it happened somehow, and here neither Priboi nor Kostenko are lying one bit. And if you personally doubt the feasibility of this, it is only because of your technical illiteracy.
                        The fact is that although no person with the strength of his hands can lift a 331 kg projectile to the height of several inter-deck spaces, but as the great physicist said: give me a lever and I will turn the earth over. and the role of a lever is perfectly played by gearboxes.
                        but while they gain in strength, they lose in distance - that is, such a rise would be carried out very slowly. By the way, I inform you that even the helm of the Borodino-class battleships had a manual drive! But it wasn’t just one person who turned this steering wheel, but there were 5 manual steering wheels! and they were probably turned by 10 people at the same time! Moreover, Novikov-surf did not say at all that the left charger was damaged, that is, it could well have had its own electric motor working, we just don’t know this - the very fact that the left charger somehow lifted the shells from the cellar is important. But the horizontal movement of shells to the right gun also shows your illiteracy in technical matters
                        How exactly they had to be transported from the left charger to the right gun is an interesting question (I would have watched how eight geniuses retrieved a 331,7 kg projectile less than a meter long in the turret)
                        It is technically very simple and very difficult physically. The shell, lifted from the cellar, with a slight movement of the hand, rolled by itself from the charger into the feed tray, where it was immediately hooked with a cable and probably lifted with a hand winch by the force of several people and dragged to the right gun.
                      60. 0
                        April 18 2024 11: 28
                        Quote: geniy
                        This is ignorance

                        Let's read what was said again
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the fact is that the main problem - lifting shells and charges by muscular force to the height of several inter-deck spaces - is excluded.

                        This is problem. And not because I don’t know about the existence of a lever and the principles of operation of manual hoists, but because manual lifting is very slow and labor-intensive. Because the work of lifting 331,7 kg over a distance of more than 7 meters is, in any case, work that must be performed with muscular strength. And spend a certain amount of energy on this. Moreover, it is very big. A person physically cannot lift 331,7 kg 7 meters if he is not super strong at once. With the help of gearboxes - it can, but it will take a long time. Both a super strongman and a gearheaded person will in fact do the same job, but the super strong person will do it quickly, and the average person will do it slowly. And they will spend an equal amount of energy. And it is not infinite in the human body.
                        That is why a main battery gun, for which shells are manually fed from the magazines, will fire very, very slowly. And since the lifting mechanisms to the left charger at the Eagle tower survived, this was not necessary.
                        I understand that you like to think that the people around you do not know the principles of leverage. It’s so much easier to consider yourself smart, isn’t it? :))))
                      61. 0
                        April 18 2024 11: 46
                        Both a super strongman and a gearheaded person will in fact do the same job, but the super strong person will do it quickly, and the average person will do it slowly. And they will spend an equal amount of energy. And it is not infinite in the human body.

                        Yes, I understand that you have big problems with arithmetic. The point is that in the main caliber turret there was not one sailor, but SEVERAL. And even if the electric motor failed, the shell could be lifted not by one sailor, but by several. and of course it still happened slower than with an electric motor.
                        And if the lifting electric motor remained intact and continued to work, then the horizontal movement of shells from the left charger to the right gun still took much more time, and did not happen at once, as you mistakenly think.
                      62. 0
                        April 18 2024 12: 06
                        Quote: geniy
                        The point is that in the main caliber turret there was not one sailor, but SEVERAL. And even if the electric motor failed, the shell could be lifted not by one sailor, but by several.

                        Mister, have you ever lifted anything heavier than a fountain pen? Looks like no. So I’ll tell you, as a person who, in his youth as a student, worked a lot as a loader - such a rise is hellish work for several people. And one person, of course, will lift the shell... I don’t even want to count how much time it will take him. And on what projectile will he be completely exhausted?
                        Quote: geniy
                        then the horizontal movement of shells from the left charger to the right gun still took much more time, and did not happen at once, as you mistakenly think.

                        Where I wrote that it happened at once, please quote.
                      63. 0
                        April 18 2024 12: 16
                        Where I wrote that it happened at once, please quote.

                        Yes, in this paragraph:
                        That is why a main battery gun, for which shells are manually fed from the magazines, will fire very, very slowly. And since the lifting mechanisms to the left charger at the Eagle tower survived, this was not necessary.

                        That is, according to this text, you should understand that if the lifting mechanism survived, THEN YOU DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS.
                        What exactly didn’t you have to do? Didn’t you really have to spend time moving the projectile horizontally from the left side to the right gun? Yes Andrey - stop deceiving readers!
                      64. 0
                        April 18 2024 12: 39
                        Quote: geniy
                        What exactly didn’t you have to do? Didn’t you really have to spend time moving the projectile horizontally from the left side to the right gun?

                        Mister, are you even out of your mind?
                        Quote: geniy
                        That is, according to this text, you should understand that if the lifting mechanism survived, THEN YOU DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS.

                        Absolutely right. In the commentary I write about lifting shells from the cellar.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Because the work of lifting 331,7 kg over a distance of more than 7 meters is, in any case, work that must be performed with muscular strength. And spend a certain amount of energy on this. Moreover, it is very big. A person physically cannot lift 331,7 kg 7 meters if he is not super strong at once. With the help of gearboxes - it can, but it will take a long time. Both a super strongman and a gearheaded person will in fact do the same job, but the super strong person will do it quickly, and the average person will do it slowly. And they will spend an equal amount of energy. And it is not infinite in the human body.
                        That is why a main battery gun, for which shells are manually fed from the magazines, will fire very, very slowly. And since the lifting mechanisms to the left charger at the Eagle tower survived, this was not necessary.

                        If the lift is intact, THIS, that is, manual lifting of shells from the cellars is not necessary. What does moving a projectile from the left lift to the right gun have to do with lifting from the magazines?
                      65. -1
                        April 15 2024 14: 54
                        And according to Kostenko’s figures, published in the first edition of his “memoirs”, EMNIP hit 300 12-dm caliber shells. He knocked them down to 42 later... And in general, Kostenko is shamelessly confused about the numbers, for example, giving, for example, the overload of the "Eagle" first one (in the memoirs) then another (in the testimony of the investigative commission).

                        Well, this is either due to misunderstanding or inattention.
                        The point is that it was Novikov-surf who wrote the chapter “We have three hundred holes!” in Tsushima!
                        Probably you simply do not distinguish between the words: hole and hit. The fact is that a hit is considered to be the impact of a projectile directly on the target, and a hole is any hole in the sides of a ship made by enemy means. so what is the difference you ask? And the fact is that many Japanese shells did not give direct hits to the target ship, but exploded on the water next to the Russian ship and doused it with hundreds of large fragments from the explosion. And these fragments made holes in the sides, and these holes were not at all at the waterline of the armor belt, but much higher than it, and even higher than the second armor belt with a thickness of 152 mm. and these fragmentation holes were small in size - most were probably the size of an apple. So there really were about 300 small holes.
                        And I don’t want to talk about overloads at all now - that’s not the topic. And besides, the load was not constant but changed from time to time, so it’s not Kostenko who is confused, but you.
                      66. +1
                        April 15 2024 15: 39
                        Quote: geniy
                        Well, this is either due to misunderstanding or inattention.

                        This is information from people who read the first edition of Kostenko :))) And not shrapnel hits.
                        Quote: geniy
                        And besides, the load was not constant but changed from time to time, so it’s not Kostenko who is confused, but you.

                        It is Kostenko who is confused, giving different overloads for the same day
                      67. -1
                        April 15 2024 15: 46
                        [quote] This is information from people who read the first edition of Kostenko :))) And not shrapnel hits.
                        [/ quote
                        what is the first edition? Right now in front of me lies the 1955 edition of his book. Isn't that right? And where is 300 main battery hits indicated? Yes, there are 142 hits with a medium caliber.
                        and the number 300 is exactly that of Novikov Surf, and not about hits, but about holes (fragmentation).
                      68. +1
                        April 15 2024 16: 40
                        Quote: geniy
                        what is the first edition? Right now in front of me lies the 1955 edition of his book. Isn't that right?

                        I checked - I have a mistake here, in the testimony of the investigative commission Kostenko said
                        Meanwhile, the "Eagle" was hit by up to 150 shells, with calibers ranging from 6" to 12". Of these, 42 hits were 12" shells.

                        And he gave evidence before the book. Probably a typo in the publication itself
                      69. +1
                        April 15 2024 18: 22
                        Quote: geniy
                        There were quite a lot of shells left, 52 out of 126. But only 4 shells out of 126 remained in the aft turret - that is, the ammunition in the aft turret was almost completely used up

                        If you had read not Kostenko (who is a naval engineer), but Shamshev (who is a senior artillery officer), you would have learned that there were not four but one HE shell left in the lump turret, the rest were armor-piercing... Yes, yes, surprise: " “Eagle” fired high-explosive shells throughout the battle...
                      70. 0
                        April 15 2024 22: 25
                        If you had read not Kostenko (who is a naval engineer), but Shamshev (who is a senior artillery officer), you would have learned that there were not four but one HE shell left in the lump turret, the rest were armor-piercing...

                        You hit the sky with your finger.
                        Here are Kostenko’s true words from page 464: “The stern turret... there are 2 armor-piercing and 2 high-explosive shells”
                      71. -1
                        April 15 2024 13: 42
                        That is, you chose what you like. And not what actually happened.

                        Once again I personally explain to you that it was not me who chose it, but the coffee shop. And I did my calculations only for myself and to refute Kofman’s opinion about low shooting accuracy.
                        Personally, for calculations and analyses, I take Kostenko’s data on 43 main battery hits
                      72. +1
                        April 15 2024 14: 19
                        Quote: geniy
                        Once again I personally explain to you that it was not me who chose it, but the coffee shop.

                        Which does not make them any close to reality.
                      73. -1
                        April 15 2024 14: 30
                        Which does not make them any close to reality.

                        So the point is that my task was to show the unreality of Kofman’s calculations. and to show the folly of his choice to base himself on Packinham's data.
                        And the complete stupidity of all fans of military history who read Wikipedia and believe the data on the percentage of hits calculated by Kofman, and all fans and experts believe the data published there like a herd - after all, this is Wikipedia!!
                      74. +1
                        April 15 2024 14: 41
                        Quote: geniy
                        So the point is that my task was to show the unreality of Kofman’s calculations

                        Well, yes, instead of one fantasy, you came up with another. In which the Japanese, having spent 446 12-inch shells, hit Eagle alone with 42 shells :)
                      75. -1
                        April 15 2024 15: 24
                        Well, yes, instead of one fantasy, you came up with another. In which the Japanese, having spent 446 12-inch shells, hit Eagle alone with 42 shells :)

                        and you didn't like it much?
                        yes, according to my reasoning, 42 hit Orel, about 50 main guns each hit Borodino and Alexander, probably about 60 hit Suvorov, and it seems like a total of 10 hit the rest of the ships. In total, probably about 210 main gun hits. this works out to a stunning percentage of 47%. I can't believe you all. Likewise, regarding the Jutland battle, I believe that the data is also false. instead of 3,3%, the Germans probably had about 30%, and the British, instead of 2,2%, perhaps in reality it was about 25%. This is my kind of extremism.
                      76. +2
                        April 15 2024 16: 29
                        Quote: geniy
                        this works out to a stunning percentage of 47%. I can't believe you all

                        There is nothing to believe or not to believe here. There is absolutely reliable data on the percentage of Japanese hits in combat in ZhM - about 10% of hits with 12-dm shells. Because, unlike Tsushima, we know both the number of shells that the Japanese fired and the number of hits that we ourselves counted.
                        There is an understanding that Kostenko lied about the number of hits of 12-inch shells on the Eagle. He himself did not see these hits (the whole fight in the hospital with a leg) but judged them from the stories of other people, and even changed his “testimonies” in different editions of his memoirs. And Kostenko is not confirmed by either the British observer or the Japanese. In the same way, he did not count the number of shells in the towers - all from someone else's words. For example, the Orel startup Shamshev reported that
                        There was 12 high-explosive shell left in the aft 1" magazine and several more in the bow

                        But for Kostenko, this turned into the absence of both high-explosive and armor-piercing shells in the rear turret.
                        At the same time, other versions, with 3 to 7 12-dm shells hitting Oryol, are quite logical and lead to a completely reasonable percentage of Japanese 12-dm hits in Tsushima.
                        And from the above there is an obvious consequence - the initial data on which you build your concepts is complete nonsense. You just really want to discover something like that, and you grab onto obviously illogical information just to make a splash
                      77. 0
                        April 15 2024 22: 21
                        For example, the Orel startup Shamshev reported that
                        There was 12 high-explosive shell left in the aft 1" magazine and several more in the bow
                        You completely distorted Kostenko’s words:
                        But for Kostenko, this turned into the absence of both high-explosive and armor-piercing shells in the rear turret.

                        You hit the sky with your finger.
                        Here are Kostenko’s true words from page 464: “The stern turret... there are 2 armor-piercing and 2 high-explosive shells”
                      78. 0
                        April 16 2024 08: 07
                        Quote: geniy
                        Here are Kostenko’s true words from page 464: “The stern turret... there are 2 armor-piercing and 2 high-explosive shells”

                        Taking into account the fact that at the beginning of the battle there were 36 armor-piercing and 72 high-explosive shells in the Eagle turret, this indicates that
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But for Kostenko, this turned into the absence of both high-explosive and armor-piercing shells in the rear turret.

                        While Shamshev reported only about the absence of high-explosive shells
                      79. -1
                        April 15 2024 12: 32
                        It’s even scarier to imagine how you managed to reduce your mistakes solely to an ellipse.

                        And the answer is very simple: the dimensions of the ellipse turned out to be many times larger than the dimensions of the ship. so all the misses probably fit into the ellipse.
                      80. +1
                        April 15 2024 13: 11
                        Quote: geniy
                        And the answer is very simple: the dimensions of the ellipse turned out to be many times larger than the dimensions of the ship. so all the misses probably fit into the ellipse.

                        You see, in your completely childish perception of physics in general and naval artillery in particular, it seems to you that in battle it is very easy to combine the aiming point (the center of the dispersion ellipse) and the target. Alas, this is far from the case, and very often shooting is carried out in conditions where the target is either on the edge of the dispersion ellipse, or even outside it. This is where the meager percentages of hits come from.
                      81. +2
                        April 14 2024 21: 10
                        Quote: geniy
                        Yes, in principle, you guessed absolutely correctly. Because first I prove that ships moving even at full speed can be conditionally considered to be absolutely motionless. and both: the shooting ship and the target ship. and the aiming of the guns is unchanged.

                        Only your spherical horse in a vacuum does not look like reality: 9 and 15 knots are clearly not “absolutely motionless.”
                      82. -2
                        April 14 2024 21: 19
                        Only your spherical horse in a vacuum does not look like reality: 9 and 15 knots are clearly not “absolutely motionless.”

                        and you know the American proverb that a bullet flies faster than a man runs. In exactly the same way, a projectile flies faster than a ship floats. but in fact, the artillerymen simply managed to correct the aiming after each previous shot in one or two minutes
                      83. +1
                        April 14 2024 21: 30
                        Quote: geniy
                        but in fact, the artillerymen simply managed to correct the aiming after each previous shot in one or two minutes

                        You just have no idea how fire control was carried out in those years... :)
                      84. -1
                        April 14 2024 21: 36
                        You just have no idea how fire control was carried out in those years... :)

                        Here. but I have the exact opposite version that you personally and in general the entire audience of the military review do not have any correct idea of ​​how fire control was actually carried out in those years.
                      85. +2
                        April 14 2024 21: 43
                        Quote: geniy
                        Here. but I have the exact opposite version that you personally and in general the entire audience of the military review do not have any correct idea of ​​how fire control was actually carried out in those years.

                        Be so kind as to enlighten us please...
                        Or will it not be soon again?
                      86. -1
                        April 14 2024 21: 47
                        Be so kind as to enlighten us please...
                        Or will it not be soon again?

                        no, no, don't even hope for it. I dream of writing a book on this topic.
                        but if you bother to express your version of how guns were aimed in those years, then I will be happy to point out your mistakes.
                      87. +1
                        April 14 2024 21: 58
                        Quote: geniy
                        no, no, don't even hope for it. I dream of writing a book on this topic.

                        This is your book already?

                        Quote: geniy
                        but if you bother to express your version of how guns were aimed in those years, then I will be happy to point out your mistakes.

                        You are changing concepts again. I'm talking about fire control, not gun aiming. And how the Geisler-Makarov fire control system works is quite described in books: go for it...
                      88. -2
                        April 14 2024 22: 36
                        And how the Geisler-Makarov fire control system works is completely described in books

                        and that's all you know about the fire control system? But here are some questions for you: each gun has these very dials of the Heisler system installed, and at the same time an optical sight is installed on the gun. question: where is the gunner looking at the moment of shooting: at the dials or at the sight?
                        and how is a shot fired in a salvo from several guns, keep in mind that the central nervous system of a human gunner in all people gives a different time delay of the nerve impulse on average, it seems about 1 second?
                        and how is the moment of firing selected when the ship is rocking: at zero roll or at maximum deflection?
                        And what guidance angles are reported by the Geisler system - full angles or without correction for derivation?
                      89. +1
                        April 15 2024 10: 57
                        Quote: geniy
                        But here are some questions for you: each gun has these very dials of the Heisler system installed, and at the same time an optical sight is installed on the gun. question: where is the gunner looking at the moment of shooting: at the dials or at the sight?

                        In the early Geisler, such as was on the RYAV battleships, the gunner looks into the optical sight, since the dials only gave the distance to the target in cables - the corrections were calculated directly at the guns. In the Geisler model 1910, the vertical angle gunner no longer looked into the optics - he had a moving arrow on the dial that showed the correct sight, and his task was to align the arrows (the second arrow moved when the handwheel moved - aiming the gun). Therefore, in the late Geisler, the “vertical” gunner simply moved the hands on the dial
                        Quote: geniy
                        and how is a salvo shot fired from several guns?

                        When ready. That is, the commander gives permission to open fire, and each gun fires when ready, when the given corrections and the correction for pitching are selected. The salvo was not fired at once; seconds could pass between individual shots.
                        In later designs (this was after WWII), the salvo was fired at once - the commander closed the circuit, and the guns fired a salvo at the moment when the inclinometer showed that the ship was at zero
                        Quote: geniy
                        and how is the moment of firing selected when the ship is rocking: at zero roll or at maximum deflection?

                        When the roll correction was made by the gunners by hand - at the moment of maximum deviation. This is typical for both REV and PMV. The Germans had their first inclinometers after Jutland.
                        Quote: geniy
                        And what guidance angles are reported by the Geisler system - full angles or without correction for derivation?

                        In the early Geisler, I don’t remember whether horizontal aiming angles were given at all. In the later period - with amendments determined by the head of the department.
                      90. 0
                        April 15 2024 18: 39
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        since the dials only showed the distance to the target in cables

                        Still, a little more information was given:
                        - Target number in formation (or bearing to a group target)
                        - distance
                        - rear sight
                        - projectile type
                        And the rest was counted in the towers.
                      91. 0
                        April 15 2024 18: 50
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Still, a little more information was given:

                        I agree, but I only wrote about what has to do with gun pointing angles. By the way, about the target number in the formation... I didn’t find it.
                      92. 0
                        April 15 2024 18: 59
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        By the way, about the target number in the formation... I didn’t find it.

                        I'll look for where I saw it...
                      93. 0
                        April 15 2024 19: 22
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I'll look for where I saw it...

                        Thank you in advance!
                      94. -1
                        April 14 2024 22: 41
                        This is your book already?

                        God knows. a long time ago I lost count. Maybe he’s already written a hundred books. but most are unfinished. There seems to be an advertisement that they can publish books for free.
                      95. +2
                        April 15 2024 11: 04
                        Quote: geniy
                        in fact, the artillerymen simply managed to correct the aiming after each previous shot in one or two minutes

                        In order to correct something, you need to see where the previous shell fell.
                      96. 0
                        April 16 2024 07: 19
                        In order to correct something, you need to see where the previous shell fell.

                        As everyone knows, Russian artillerymen fired with the Main caliber at intervals of about 2 minutes. But they were shooting with an average 6-inch caliber. And these six-inch guns fired approximately every 40 seconds. but probably the six-inch Russian battleships did not fire in volleys from all the towers, but separately - when ready. and from this it turned out that time intervals of 40 s can be divided into three, that is, into three towers. This means the fall of sighting shells (which in fact were fire to kill, but at the same time played the role of sighting for each subsequent shot as for their 6-inch caliber, and for the main caliber) occurred approximately every 13 seconds. And in 13 seconds, the enemy target ships did not have time to greatly change their position relative to the Russians. Of course, this is just as true for the Japanese. so we can conditionally assume, without much error, that in relation to artillery fire, the Russians and Japanese fired as if at stationary enemy ships. But all experts and simple lovers of naval history (except me) have been unable to understand this simple fact for a hundred years.
                      97. 0
                        April 16 2024 08: 28
                        Quote: geniy
                        As everyone knows, Russian artillerymen fired with the Main caliber at intervals of about 2 minutes.

                        Who is this “everyone” for? Do you have a split personality, or what?
                        Everyone knows that the battle of the main forces in ZhM lasted about 4 hours (both phases) and during this time the Tsarevich, who had no damage to the 12-dm artillery, fired 104 12-dm shells - this was the maximum consumption of 12-dm shells on the battleship. even in this case, even if we assume that for one reason or another the ship’s main battery fought for only 3 hours and not 4, it still turns out to be 0,58 rounds per minute, and it has four guns. In total, each gun fired approximately once every 1 minutes 6 seconds.
                        Quote: geniy
                        but probably the six-inch Russian battleships did not fire in volleys from all the towers, but separately - when ready

                        Such nonsense...
                        The shooting was carried out from ONE tower. The rest were silent during the shooting.
                      98. 0
                        April 16 2024 08: 51
                        Who is this “everyone” for? Do you have a split personality, or what?

                        This is known to all people who have read Tsushima. And I believe that absolutely all Russian people interested in the fleet have read this book.
                        And it says that the main battery guns of the battleship Orel fired every 2 minutes. At the same time, readers should understand that although the total duration of the Tsushima battle was 5 hours, in fact, for a significant part of this time there was no artillery fire, and both opposing squadrons simply wandered. And if you bothered to calculate, then out of 63 rounds for each main battery gun in 2 minutes, then the Russians should have run out of shells within 2 hours after the start of the battle. therefore, in fact, already in the middle of the battle, the Russians switched to slower, more economical shooting, and the Japanese initially fired very rarely.
                      99. +1
                        April 16 2024 11: 48
                        Quote: geniy
                        This is known to all people who have read Tsushima.

                        All people who have read Tsushima know that
                        Every two minutes, tearing the air, a volley was heard, accompanied by a crimson flash

                        Novikov wrote not about all battleships, and not even about Orel, but only about the bow turret of Orel, and even then - in the moment, that is, the situation immediately before the muzzle broke off.
                        If you had bothered to study Tsushima at all, you would have known that this moment is the same moment when the Eagle, having zeroed in, opened fire on the Japanese armored cruiser to kill, that is, the turret’s rate of fire was maximum.
                        You managed to spread this data to all the guns of the entire squadron, which is already a completely false assumption.
                        At the same time, on the one hand, you are trying to draw some conclusions based on the fact that
                        Quote: geniy
                        Main caliber at intervals of approximately 2 minutes. But they were shooting with an average 6-inch caliber. And these six-inchers fired approximately every 40 seconds

                        On the other hand, you yourself write that
                        Quote: geniy
                        in fact, already in the middle of the battle the Russians switched to slower, more economical shooting

                        for which your calculations are invalid.
                        L-logic...
                      100. -2
                        April 16 2024 08: 55
                        Such nonsense...
                        The shooting was carried out from ONE tower. The rest were silent during the shooting.

                        Sighting was carried out only at the first moment of the battle, and the rest of the time fire was carried out to kill. True, due to the fact that the Russians and Japanese converged and dispersed many times, the shooting was also repeated many times.
                        However, even when shooting to kill, each previous shot is a zero for each subsequent one. So the shooting was carried out virtually throughout the entire battle of Tsushima. And this means that, in fact, the shooting was not carried out by just one tower, but by at least all three six-inch towers alternately. And besides, the falling shells of the twelve-inch towers also helped correct the aiming. and this means that the twelve-inch towers actually also participated in the shooting.
                      101. 0
                        April 16 2024 12: 12
                        Quote: geniy
                        Sighting was carried out only at the first moment of the battle, and the rest of the time fire was carried out to kill.

                        Sit down, deuce. Shooting was carried out whenever
                        1) the target made a maneuver and came out from under the cover
                        2) Fire was transferred to another target
                        3) Starart assumed that the ship’s fire had no effect, even if the target did not make sudden maneuvers
                        And this was only while centralized fire control was maintained. And when it ended (which happened very quickly) and control was transferred to the plutongs, each gun/turret fired independently and took aim - also independently.
                        Quote: geniy
                        However, even when shooting to kill, each previous shot is a zero for each subsequent one.

                        Utter nonsense. You know NOTHING about the operation of artillery in those years.
                      102. 0
                        April 16 2024 13: 19
                        And this was only while centralized fire control was maintained. And when it ended (which happened very quickly) and control was transferred to the plutongs, each gun/turret fired independently and took aim - also independently.

                        so what are you doing? Do YOU ​​deny the role of the Geisler system or what?
                        and do you think that each gun, in your opinion, was aimed and sighted independently?
                      103. 0
                        April 16 2024 13: 43
                        Quote: geniy
                        so what are you doing? Do YOU ​​deny the role of the Geisler system or what?

                        Your militant illiteracy goes beyond all limits.
                        A centralized fire control system can work as long as it works. That is, as long as there is a means of measuring the range to the target (rangefinders), the senior artillery officer is alive, or the person replacing him, and the transmitting fire control devices are intact. On the same "Suvorov" both the starart of the battleship and the flagship were killed in the first 20 minutes of the battle. This is where centralized fire control ended
                        On Orel, centralized control was disrupted after 40-50 minutes of battle
                      104. -2
                        April 16 2024 13: 56
                        Your delusions are unusually great. However, along with you, thousands of your fans also know nothing about how the artillery fire control system actually worked. and indeed all lovers of naval history in Russia:
                        A centralized fire control system can work as long as it works. That is, as long as there is a means of measuring the range to the target (rangefinders), the senior artillery officer is alive, or the person replacing him, and the transmitting fire control devices are intact. On the same "Suvorov" both the starart of the battleship and the flagship were killed in the first 20 minutes of the battle. This is where centralized fire control ended

                        In fact, if the commander is killed, then anyone next in command replaces him. It’s like if a division commander is killed, then he is replaced by a deputy; if he is killed, then the regiment commander will command, then the battalion commander, then any company commander. it was the same on the ship - when all the officers were killed in the conning tower, each ship was led by ordinary sailors. I'm sure you won't agree with this. but then I will explain to all smart people that firing guns alone is generally impossible - only if you shoot at milk.
                      105. 0
                        April 16 2024 14: 27
                        That is, you haven’t read Kostenko
                        It turned out to be impossible to correct the shooting from the conning tower, and therefore they began to transmit only distances using the rangefinder from the conning tower, and from the towers they opened fire with live shells and found the corrections themselves. After half an hour of battle we had to switch to group fire.

                        Group or plutong fire is a complete rejection of centralized fire :)))
                        Quote: geniy
                        It’s like if a division commander is killed, then he is replaced by a deputy; if he is killed, then the regiment commander will take command

                        And if the rangefinders and fire control devices were broken, then what are we going to do?
                      106. 0
                        April 16 2024 14: 40
                        But the funniest thing in your speech is your confidence that the duties of fire control can be performed by any officer who is not an artilleryman, and even a lower rank.
                        It's just... It just shows that you don't even have the remotest idea about firing an artillery gun. Moreover, at sea.
                      107. 0
                        April 16 2024 13: 26
                        Sit down, deuce. Shooting was carried out whenever
                        you just forgot how to read
                        True, due to the fact that the Russians and Japanese converged and dispersed many times, the shooting was also repeated many times.
                        However, even when shooting to kill, each previous shot is a zero for each subsequent one. So the shooting was carried out virtually throughout the entire battle of Tsushima. AND
                      108. 0
                        April 16 2024 13: 46
                        Quote: geniy
                        True, due to the fact that the Russians and Japanese converged and dispersed many times, the shooting was also repeated many times.

                        And I explained that this was wrong. Not because they “converged and diverged,” but in many other cases
                        Quote: geniy
                        However, even when shooting to kill, each previous shot is a zero for each subsequent one.

                        Utter nonsense.
                        The battleship fires with ONE turret precisely in order to be able to observe the fall of shells. As soon as they zeroed in, RAPID FIRE opened, when the guns fired independently according to the data given by the zeroing. At this moment, the ability to adjust fire was completely lost. Essentially, the task of the starart was to estimate at what point in time the falling shells stopped covering the enemy, then he stopped rapid fire and took aim again
                      109. 0
                        April 16 2024 14: 58
                        So it’s clear that you and thousands of your fans understand nothing about this issue:
                        The battleship fires with ONE turret precisely in order to be able to observe the fall of shells. As soon as they zeroed in, RAPID FIRE opened, when the guns fired independently according to the data given by the zeroing. At this moment, the ability to adjust fire was completely lost. Essentially, the task of the starart was to estimate at what point in time the falling shells stopped covering the enemy, then he stopped rapid fire and took aim again

                        Firstly: in the RYAV they shot with one turret only to save shells, because they did not consider it necessary to rush and conduct quick shooting. But in subsequent periods of history, the sailors decided that they had to do the shooting very quickly and that they couldn’t waste time on successive shots, but instead they shot from several guns at once so that the shells would fall in a ledge and they could simply select the nearest falls.
                        BUT the artillery firing itself was carried out in a completely different way than you imagine.
                        RAPID FIRE, when the guns fired independently according to the data issued by the sighting. IN
                        Let Andrei and all other readers know that during the REV and all subsequent times, the guns NEVER fired on their own!
                        At this moment, the ability to adjust fire was completely lost. P
                        This shows your complete illiteracy in matters of artillery shooting. Firstly: many months before the battle, immediately after construction and entry into service, each ship carries out the OPERATION OF FIRING its guns. The gunners ensure that the shells of all the ship’s guns fall at one point, or at least at one ellipse, the same for all guns. And when, after shooting, even a quick salvo fire is fired, then all the ship’s shells fall into a single ellipse. And the senior artilleryman sees where his shells are falling. And if this ellipse suddenly moves relative to the target, then starart sees this and immediately produces slightly modified data requiring the ellipse to be moved to the right or left, closer or further. and this data is instantly transmitted through the Geisler system to all guns. The gunners see that the arrows on the dials have turned and they immediately rotate the handwheels of the guns, changing the aiming. so there are no breaks in the shooting, as Andrey mistakenly thinks.
                      110. 0
                        April 16 2024 15: 20
                        Quote: geniy
                        Firstly: in the RYAV they shot with one turret only to save shells, because they did not consider it necessary to rush and conduct quick shooting. But in subsequent periods of history, the sailors decided that they had to do the shooting very quickly and that they couldn’t waste time on successive shots, but instead they shot from several guns at once so that the shells would fall in a ledge and they could simply select the nearest falls.

                        And again - you heard a ringing, but you don’t know where it is. The reasons for shooting with a single gun in the RYAV are completely different, but the most important thing is that at least it dawned on you that in the RYAV ours were shooting with single guns, and not with ledges and not with double ledges.
                        Slowly we are making a person out of you.
                        Quote: geniy
                        Let Andrei and all other readers know that during the REV and all subsequent times, the guns NEVER fired on their own!

                        We read the instructions of the flagship artilleryman Bersenev.
                        And then the reports of Shcherbachev, who commanded the aft turret of the "Eagle" and saw from his own experience the practice of fire control
                        After limiting the elevation angle of the left gun in my turret, I wanted to report this to the conning tower, but could not get through the intercom. Then I was told from the central post that in the conning tower the combat indicators and artillery fire control devices were demolished by a shell, the rangefinders were broken and all the speaking pipes were destroyed, and that therefore I should be guided by the results of zeroing my group turret (i.e. 6" aft left) .
                        The arrows on the combat dials have already stopped showing; The dials are damaged. With a 6" turret, I have only one means of communication left - a speaking pipe. But the speaking pipe does not go straight, but is divided into several bends, that is, the tower commander speaks through the pipe to the turret compartment; from the 12" turret compartment, it is transmitted through another pipe to the turret compartment of the 6" turret; from the turret compartment of the 6" turret the third pipe is transferred to the group commander and back.
                        But from their own shooting and also from the explosions of enemy shells, everyone in the towers was almost deaf. My left eardrum burst (I found out later from the doctor), and I also had trouble hearing in my right ear; in the turret compartment there was a roar from the shells being fed, from the removal of hoists, etc. The result of all this was that the order transmitted, for example, from the 6" turret reached me very slowly, since the people on the transmission were forced to ask again several times times. I myself could not immediately hear what was being transmitted from below.
                        How great the roar and noise was can be seen from the fact that after 3 o’clock I could not transmit distances and sights through the speaking tube to my gunners - they did not hear. Therefore, I had to shout to the tower foreman, then he handed over 4 numbers, and they already gave 2 numbers, and finally it came to the first numbers. This was also a waste of time.
                        Therefore, when any distance reached me, it was already late - Therefore, we had to calculate by eye how much it could change and set the sight based on this. Due to the slow rate of fire of the 12" guns, I couldn’t take aim myself.

                        And about the shooting - as I said, you have no idea about artillery fire
                      111. 0
                        April 18 2024 08: 50
                        And about the shooting - as I said, you have no idea about artillery fire

                        So it turns out that I have no idea about artillery shooting, and not you? Well, explain to all readers what shooting guns is? Personally, I don’t need this at all; I learned about the shooting more than thirty years ago. But you are carrying a blizzard from central fire, group fire and plutong fire - which in itself is of course correct if we consider this paragraph separately, but has nothing to do with the shooting. And I suggest you pay attention to the fact that Andrei is not suffering from illiteracy at all - he is, of course, very well read and even more than I am. only he doesn’t know dozens of naval secrets, like all the other “experts,” but I do.
                      112. 0
                        April 18 2024 09: 58
                        .
                        Quote: geniy
                        Well, explain to all readers what shooting guns is?

                        Certainly. Why not respect the readers?
                        Shooting is an exception, or a reduction in such an effect as the diversity of guns. The variability of guns is, in simple words, when, with the same aiming parameters of a group of guns, the centers of grouping of their projectiles (the centers of the dispersion ellipses) do not coincide.
                        The task of shooting is to develop individual adjustments to guns to reduce variability
                        There are 2 shooting methods:
                        - by measuring initial velocities
                        - based on measured deviations
                        The first is simpler and more accurate, but requires special instruments, the second is more cumbersome and less accurate, but it can be carried out at any convenient time.
                        None of the shooting methods can completely eliminate the variability - only reduce it. A good result of firing two guns of the same caliber is that their dispersion ellipses do not coincide by two probable deviations. With a larger number of guns, the variety of weapons will naturally be higher, but disproportionately.
                        But the point is that for 40 cables the lateral probable deviation of 152-mm guns does not exceed 4 m. That is, the ellipse for it in width is 32 m. That is, an increase in the total dispersion ellipse by even 10 probable deviations is 40 m, and the total dispersion ellipse is 72 m, which against the background of a 100 m target body is insignificant.
                        Shooting long distances in volleys is a different matter. There, shooting will be important for zeroing. But in the RYV, shooting was carried out with one gun, shooting (if it was carried out at all) was not a panacea for anything, and did not provide much help in tracking the effectiveness of rapid fire
                      113. 0
                        April 18 2024 17: 27
                        Finally, Andrey from Chelyabinsk found out what SOSTRELA is. But apparently he still didn’t understand anything. Personally, I learned all this 35 years earlier. And without understanding the essence, Andrey continues to misinform all readers, giving them false information. The fact is that Andrey quoted us lines from the textbook. And as the song says, “I didn’t learn life from a textbook.” and another opponent, Maxim, objected to me: Why were all of us officers taught incorrectly?
                        Yes, imagine - the most important information was often withheld from you, just like us too - in all professions the most important information was kept back. Here is an example of a fragment of his sentence:
                        shooting (if it was carried out at all (during the REV)
                        But have all of you, thousands of readers, read somewhere at least once that during a REV, a SHOOTING was carried out? And have any of the naval writers mentioned at least once in their books that shooting was carried out? But I noticed this once. in Melnikov's Book the battleship Potemkin on page "It was proposed to eliminate the discovered non-parallelism of the axes of the guns in the bow turret...." This apparently happened on April 29, 1905... page 139:: "At 10:16 a.m. the first shot from the bow gun rang out" “after lunch, Potemkin began salvo firing to test the strength of the towers and the ship’s hull.” Notice how Melnikov deceived his readers: he mentioned the strength of the towers, but did not say a single word about the fact that fire was being fired at the same time! If any of the readers haven’t guessed, then shooting is carried out only during salvo fire. But note - in this brief description of the shooting, Melnikov does not mention in a single word that non-parallelism was discovered - that is, the shells did not hit the same point. Thus, Melnikov hid from thousands of his readers that during the acceptance tests, the guns were also FIRE during test shots. and I was the only person in the world out of at least 68 thousand readers of his book who noticed and understood that the battleship Potemkin carried out the firing operation not at all during service after entering service, but during acceptance tests. And the textbook that Andrei quoted to you falsely claims that shooting is carried out only during the service of the ship. That’s why neither Andrey nor Maxim even know. And Melnikov kept secret from the readers that all the ships carried out a firing operation during the acceptance tests. And there is no doubt that all the ships of the Russian Navy carried out the shooting operation back in Kronstadt, and not at all during the campaign, as Andrei from Chelyabinsk thinks about it. And that means absolutely all Russian writers, naval historians, in general, all famous naval historians: Melnikov, Suliga, Kofman,
                        Cherkasov, Arbuzov Balakin, Beklemishev, Belov, Bunich, Gribovsky,
                        Dotsenko, Zolotarev, Koktsinsky, Peasants were misinformed
                        readers and hid from us the fact that all Russian ships fired shots back in Kronstadt.
                      114. +1
                        April 18 2024 18: 17
                        Quote: geniy
                        that is, the shells did not hit one point.

                        Yes, read some book on external ballistics and don’t talk nonsense, it hurts...
                      115. -1
                        April 18 2024 18: 20
                        Yes, read some book on external ballistics and don’t talk nonsense, it hurts...

                        Why are you so unfounded? Am I wrong about anything? you refute me, otherwise you yourself have landed in a puddle more than once.
                      116. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 36
                        Quote: geniy
                        Am I wrong about anything?

                        In everything. Even if you had a textbook, you couldn’t read it and understand what shooting is :)))))
                      117. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 43
                        Quote: geniy
                        Why are you so unfounded? Am I wrong about anything?

                        If you had read textbooks on ballistics, you would have known that two guns in a turret, even in one gulp or alone, would not be able to hit the same point...

                        Quote: geniy
                        you refute me, otherwise you yourself have landed in a puddle more than once.

                        Talking to you is like playing chess with a pigeon... laughing
                      118. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 35
                        Quote: geniy
                        But I noticed this once. in Melnikov's Book the battleship Potemkin on page "It was proposed to eliminate the discovered non-parallelism of the axes of the guns in the bow turret...."

                        Gods, this miracle never understood what shooting is :)))))))
                        My dear, eliminating the non-parallelism of guns does not mean firing even once.
                        Quote: geniy
                        and only I am the only person in the world out of at least 68 thousand readers of his book who noticed and understood

                        Be sure to inform your attending physician about this Great Understanding.
                      119. +1
                        April 16 2024 18: 31
                        Quote: geniy
                        Let Andrei and all other readers know that during the REV and all subsequent times, the guns NEVER fired on their own!

                        But I won’t cut it down and what will you do to me? laughing

                        The guns stopped firing independently in “normal mode” after the appearance of a centralized fire control system; before that, the managing officer, at best, indicated where and what to shoot and nothing more...
                      120. -1
                        April 17 2024 19: 26
                        But I won’t cut it down and what will you do to me? laughing

                        And I'm not going to do anything to you. Why should I re-educate or train you? stay with your mistaken opinion for the rest of your life.
                        The guns stopped firing independently in “normal mode” after the appearance of a centralized fire control system; before that, the managing officer, at best, indicated where and what to shoot and nothing more...

                        I think you are very mistaken. It's certainly not your fault at all. but the fact is that the naval commanders decided to tightly classify the true state of affairs in naval artillery. and this ridiculous secrecy continues for about one and a half hundred years! What secret could there be in the first delays of conductors in gutta-percha insulation, you and all other readers ask? but the fact that smart lovers of naval history, if they had read many times about the first use of the antediluvian SUAO system, they would inevitably have become interested in it and wanted to see how it continued to develop. So - the first antediluvian artillery fire control system appeared on the famous steamship Vesta, which carried out a heroic battle with a Turkish ship. Of course, this first SUAO in Russian photography was still very primitive. it probably transmitted only the simplest data - the vertical elevation angle and the horizontal aiming angle. but she continued to develop. however, her appearance was classified and you will not find any mention of her in the literature. I have only seen a small mention of it once in my long life. And this SUAO system undoubtedly was on all ancient battleships and cruisers: Peter the Great, Nicholas the First, Catherine the Great, Gangut, Sisoy the Great, Navarin, Poltava, Pobeda, Oslyabya, Retvizan, Tsesarevich and all of Borodino
                        But this is deeply secret for you.
                      121. 0
                        April 17 2024 21: 37
                        Quote: geniy
                        And this SUAO system undoubtedly was on all ancient battleships and cruisers: Peter the Great, Nicholas the First, Catherine the Great, Gangut, Sisoy the Great, Navarin, Poltava, Pobeda, Oslyabya, Retvizan, Tsesarevich and all of Borodino
                        But this is deeply secret for you.

                        And what is this terrible secret?
                      122. -1
                        April 17 2024 21: 41
                        And what is this terrible secret?

                        firstly, this is not one secret at all, but a whole complex of naval secrets. A lot of them.
                      123. 0
                        April 17 2024 22: 39
                        Quote: geniy
                        firstly, this is not one secret at all, but a whole complex of naval secrets. A lot of them.

                        State it like this... Don't hold back.
                      124. 0
                        April 17 2024 22: 55
                        State it like this... Don't hold back.

                        Why on earth would I state anything? first of all, almost no one except smart people will believe me. Personally, I don’t care about it, I still know the truth.
                        But if you want to know something, then please answer my questions.
                        Well, at least one of this complex of terrible secrets is the list of the ship. As you should understand, when guns fire, due to their strong recoil, a roll in the opposite direction immediately occurs. and every warship in the world passed this test with a salvo shot on one side, and at the same time the roll angle was measured. so take the trouble to tell me the amount of roll of at least one ship in the world.
                        Yes, and also describe to me how the shooting operation is performed, and most importantly, tell me the size of the shooting
                      125. 0
                        April 17 2024 23: 20
                        Quote: geniy
                        But if you want to know something, then please answer my questions.

                        And you are funny... :)

                        Quote: geniy
                        As you should understand, when guns fire, due to their strong recoil, a roll in the opposite direction immediately occurs.

                        As I understand it, you are not aware that the body of the gun is not rigidly connected to the frame and recoil brakes are used to compensate for recoil?

                        Quote: geniy
                        Yes, and also describe to me how the shooting operation is performed, and most importantly, tell me the size of the shooting

                        You shouldn't tell me this...

                        ZY I’ll ask again: Do you know what “Hitchens’ Razor” is?
                      126. 0
                        April 17 2024 23: 30
                        As I understand it, you are not aware that the body of the gun is not rigidly connected to the frame and recoil brakes are used to compensate for recoil?

                        Of course, the recoil brake somewhat reduces the recoil force, but not completely. And despite these rollback brakes, the roll of the ship from the salvo is still quite large. So tell me: are you going to argue that roll from recoil is generally equal to zero? And you, Maxim, think before you lie - after all, I have proof of the magnitude of the roll.
                      127. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 11
                        Quote: geniy
                        And you, Maxim, think before you lie - after all, I have proof of the magnitude of the roll.

                        Present it... Why wait?
                      128. 0
                        April 17 2024 23: 37
                        You shouldn't tell me this...
                        ZY I’ll ask again: Do you know what “Hitchens’ Razor” is?

                        Of course, the burden of proof lies with the person making any claim. But you forgot that the essence of my statement is that I claim that a lot of naval history is classified for unknown reasons. And the best way to show that everything is classified is to force all readers, and in particular you, to find the simplest data. And if you and no one else succeeds, then I’m right and everything is classified. so take the trouble to find on the Internet all the information about the firing of the ship’s guns and the magnitude of this firing.
                        Look for Shura, look.
                      129. +1
                        April 18 2024 13: 28
                        Just wondering. There is a joke about how a man threw scraps of paper and scared away elephants. Let's take this anecdote as an example.
                        Given: I am afraid of retiloids and deep-sea ones. While I am throwing scraps of paper on the street, not a single reptilian or deep sea creature comes near me.
                        If you think that scraps of paper do not repel reptilians and deep sea creatures, then provide data on this. Those. the man threw scraps of bumani, and the reptilians and/or deep-sea creatures approached him. Since you cannot provide data about the failure (photos, videos, written testimony) of this method, then I am right.
                        Now pay attention - what is the mistake?
                      130. 0
                        April 18 2024 07: 40
                        This "secret" OMS is described in the literature. I would like to read it...
                      131. 0
                        April 18 2024 08: 41
                        This "secret" OMS is described in the literature. I would like to read it...

                        What are you saying now? Please note that many of my opponents answer me without specifics. that is, Andrey mentions some unnamed OMS system but does not say which one.
                        And if he got involved in our discussion with Maxim about the central fire control system. then I remind Andrey that, of course, everyone knows the Vesta fight, but for some reason Maxim forgot that this was first used back in 1877 on Vesta. And this Maxim, in a previous post, argued that the guns stopped firing regularly on their own only after the appearance of the centralized SUAO system, and according to the British, this system appeared only in 1912 on English dreadnoughts. So, all “experts”, check when the first centralized fire control system finally appeared: in 1877 on Vesta or in 1912 on English dreadnoughts.
                        And to you personally, Andrey, I have a lot of answers to your counterarguments, I just haven’t had time to write them yet.
                      132. 0
                        April 18 2024 10: 52
                        Quote: geniy
                        Please note that many of my opponents answer me without specifics. that is, Andrey mentions some unnamed OMS system but does not say which one.

                        Let's start with the fact that you don't even know that during the 19th century the Russian imperial had at least two different fire control systems in service, the first EMNIP was either 1866 or 1877, the second was Geisler EMNIP 1892 (the book is not at hand , I’ll be more precise in the evening)
                        Quote: geniy
                        But for some reason Maxim forgot that this was first used back in 1877 on Vesta. And this Maxim, in a previous post, argued that the guns stopped firing regularly on their own only after the appearance of the centralized SUAO system, and according to the British, this system appeared only in 1912 on English dreadnoughts.

                        This is because you have no idea about the evolution of the OMS. And Maxim knows everything.
                        The first control systems provided the initial data for calculating aiming angles, and they were calculated directly at the guns. That is, in WWII, the control system took a fundamental step forward - the sight and corrections were calculated centrally, and specific data on the vertical and horizontal sight were transmitted to the guns - they only had to set the required values.
                        That is why Maxim is absolutely right when he writes that even with a control system of the early Geisler level, the firing parameters were determined specifically for the guns. And the fact that you are not able to understand what Maxim is writing to you only testifies to your deep illiteracy in the issues in which you make “discoveries.”
                        You undertake to judge the 19th century control systems without even knowing how they worked - solely on your personal fantasies about them
                      133. +1
                        April 18 2024 18: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Let's start with the fact that you don't even know

                        Andrey, it seems to me that Oleg Teslenko, the author of a thousand books and a million articles that no one has seen or read, visited us. :)
                      134. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 32
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It seems to me that Oleg Teslenko, the author of a thousand books and a million articles that no one has seen or read, visited us. :)

                        The Titan of Thought and Father of Russian Democracy you mentioned is unfamiliar to me. Obviously - fortunately :)))
                      135. +1
                        April 18 2024 18: 45
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The Titan of Thought and Father of Russian Democracy you mentioned is unfamiliar to me. Obviously - fortunately :)))

                        Google it... What is on our Internet is enough for you to have a blast. This is cooler than Zadornov, Petrosyan and Trushkin and Koklyushkin combined... :)
                      136. 0
                        April 18 2024 18: 53
                        Thank you, I'll take a look with interest :)
                      137. +1
                        April 18 2024 18: 43
                        Quote: geniy
                        Of course, this first SUAO in Russian photography was still very primitive. it probably transmitted only the simplest data - the vertical elevation angle and the horizontal aiming angle. but she continued to develop. however, her appearance was classified and you will not find any mention of her in the literature.

                        Opening A.V. Platonov “Domestic artillery firing control devices” and read about the first domestic fire control system - as it was then called “automatic firing system” by A.P. Davydov, adopted for service in 1876. Description, diagram.
                        Then we read there about the control system model 1893/94 (the first Geisler).
                        We try not to laugh at our unrecognized genius, who once again got into trouble...
                      138. +1
                        April 18 2024 19: 03
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Opening A.V. Platonov “Domestic artillery fire control devices” and read about the first domestic control system

                        Andrey, now he will write that either Platonov himself hid it, or he hid it from Platonov. wassat
              2. +1
                April 14 2024 18: 54
                Quote: geniy
                And I included this percentage of hits for the entire Tsushima battle in the initial data for the calculation, because it was the percentage of shells hitting different areas of the dispersion ellipse that determined its size.

                That is, you built an ellipse based on the average percentage of hits, without taking into account air temperature, humidity, wind, gun wear, the condition of shells, charges, and so on? How did you then determine the deviation in range, vertical and lateral?
                1. +2
                  April 14 2024 19: 25
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  How did you then determine the deviation in range, vertical and lateral?

                  Do you hope that comrade has seen the ballistic tables with at least one eye? :)
                  1. +2
                    April 14 2024 20: 00
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    Do you hope that comrade has seen the ballistic tables with at least one eye? :)

                    To be honest, I hoped that he was familiar with the so-called concept of a “sheaf of trajectories”; enough has been written about this.
              3. +2
                April 15 2024 08: 54
                Quote: geniy
                everyone here considers me a dropout - so I want to see if anyone else besides me can perform this simple calculation.

                You are a half-educated person because you DO this calculation without realizing that it makes no sense.
                Take, for example, the Nakhimov shooting. On the cruiser they could not see the fall of their shells, so they fired according to the rangefinder data - what distance it showed, this was the vertical aiming angle they took. In this case, the target could be completely outside the hit dispersion ellipse. And they fired a lot of shells into nowhere.
                You also don’t understand that ships at sea are constantly changing their distance relative to each other, and the rate at which the distance is changing is also different, so the aiming point (the center of the dispersion ellipse) can never be permanently aligned with the target ship. That is why an artillery battle ALWAYS represents an alternation of sightings and lethal fire, since the data becomes outdated, and even special instruments (which appeared after the REV and were specifically designed to predict changes in the position of the target relative to the firing ship VIR and VIP) do not provide any guarantees that absolutely logical, has solid confirmation by physics. And the statement
                Quote: geniy
                One can conditionally consider ships moving even at full speed to be absolutely motionless.

                speaks of you as a person who is unable to understand a school geometry course
                1. +1
                  April 15 2024 09: 24
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In this case, the target could be completely outside the hit dispersion ellipse.

                  “on hits” is superfluous here
          3. +2
            April 13 2024 16: 13
            Quote: geniy
            Well, dear DenVB, you have already named one mysterious phenomenon!

            Why is it mysterious?
            For example, you open Kozlovsky’s textbook “Artillery Course”, section “External Ballistics”, it contains the 6th chapter “Rotational movement of a projectile”: you open it, read it and see calculations that show how to minimize this phenomenon when calculating the design of a projectile..

            Quote: geniy
            True, there are still a few others left - unnamed...

            Which ones, for example?

            Quote: geniy
            So the projectile will hit the armor not strictly along the ballistic trajectory, but at a slightly different angle - very different from the correct trajectory?

            You are somewhat confused in terminology: the same Kozlovsky will help you...
      3. +1
        April 14 2024 16: 02
        Quote: geniy
        and the solid angle is not that important either.

        seriously? won't you explain? hi at least the projectile path is longer in armor - or is it normalized?
        Quote: geniy
        o only if you answer a few verification questions.

        I've been used to taking exams for a long time... bully
        1. 0
          April 14 2024 16: 23
          seriously? won't you explain? hi at least the projectile path is longer in armor - or is it normalized?

          No, of course it will not be normalized. You are right about the solid angle. BUT I think it was not the strike at an oblique but known in advance that served as a reason for refusing experienced shooting at long distances.
          In general, I’m now writing a large, devastating article about these experiences, but I’m not sure whether the moderators will give me the opportunity to publish it.
          I've been used to taking exams for a long time... bully
          Well, you can already start taking the exam. Answer, what is the value of the precession angle for any specific projectile: be it Russian, Japanese, English, American German or French? you can name a projectile of any caliber: 305 mm, 152, 120, 100, 75 mm, and at any specific distance: 20 mm, 30 mm, 40 mm.
          And my question applies not only to you personally, but in general to the entire audience of military review readers.
          And if you or someone else mistakenly thinks that I expect a direct answer from you, then you are all mistaken. I expect from you only all sorts of excuses like you don’t have time or advice to look into some little book, like Maxim apparently did. But in fact, I just dream of meeting at least one honest person on this forum who admits that he has never seen the angle of precession of a projectile in his life.
          1. +2
            April 14 2024 17: 37
            Quote: geniy
            Well, you can already start taking the exam.

            and why? hi if you want to say something, say it, and don’t play suggestive... request
            1. 0
              April 14 2024 17: 57
              [quote]why? hi if you want to say something, say it, and don’t play suggestive... request
              [/ quote
              Well, I told you right away that it would just be another excuse!
  7. +1
    April 12 2024 18: 16
    Continuous “seems to be”, “probably”, “possibly” and “indirect data” - and the author is trying to reason and calculate something on this basis? - although what can be expected from such tests - they shot at the slab three times - with different projectile speeds and they didn’t penetrate, they weren’t surprised, since they had previously fired at a higher projectile speed and also didn’t penetrate, the question is, why did they shoot?? tongue
    1. 0
      April 12 2024 20: 03
      So, we have to proceed from what we have. The ancestors did not experiment further. Or hidden from us laughing laughing and they wrote only what they wrote. smile
      1. +1
        April 12 2024 20: 20
        “To start” for what - to understand that they are stupid people? - well, after all, they chose the thickness of armor for ships and the power of guns from such amusing nonsense - all for colossal money
        1. 0
          April 13 2024 14: 48
          The construction of ships at that time was far from scientific research. Concepts, general practice, prototypes, money. According to our concepts, there were no drawings then. And they began construction according to the drawings that were available. And the artisans, under their guidance, completed what others had not completed. Everything developed from the time of the sailing fleet and became more complex over time.
          1. -2
            April 13 2024 16: 01
            Funny assessment - did you really think of it yourself? laughing
            1. 0
              April 14 2024 06: 57
              Find a book about how the Aurora was reconstructed. A funny read.
              And the fact that even in English shipbuilding they began not to build, having only the most general drawings, it seems to me that is already known to everyone who knows at least something on this topic.
              1. 0
                April 14 2024 09: 59
                Small typo. “Not” was not removed. It's the phone's fault! Not me!
              2. -1
                April 14 2024 10: 18
                What does English shipbuilding have to do with Aurora? - And what does reconstruction have to do with it? - Well, they lost the drawings of Aurora a long time ago - due to their uselessness and age - does this say something?
                1. -1
                  April 14 2024 15: 08
                  The technical level is just that: the technical level. Moreover, our builders took English as an example.
                  And the fact that at that time ships were built according to the most general drawings is simply a fact. Moreover, from the point of view of today, these were sketches and pictures. Sometimes beautiful.
                  There were few specialists for drawing drawings, especially in Russia. In developed countries this was better. That's why they built it faster.
                  That’s why we tried to make the most of previous prototypes. It's just at least cheaper.
                2. -1
                  April 16 2024 11: 35
                  In general, the drawings, oddly enough, have been preserved. And there are references IN THE DRAWINGS (!!) - “to be carried out according to the best examples of the English fleet.”
                  In today's times, understand it however you want. And then it was normal.
                  THERE WERE SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH NUMBER OF LITERATE PEOPLE.
                  1. -1
                    April 16 2024 18: 35
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    In general, the drawings, oddly enough, have been preserved. And there are references IN THE DRAWINGS (!!) - “to be carried out according to the best examples of the English fleet.”
                    In today's times, understand it however you want. And then it was normal.

                    It's simple: there is a conventional cable view used in the Royal Navy with good performance characteristics, etc. Therefore, when designing, they simply gave the command “don’t reinvent the wheel,” but use a ready-made, well-proven solution... You can even use an unlicensed one. laughing
                    1. 0
                      April 18 2024 15: 40
                      We are talking about assembling the body.
                      1. -1
                        April 18 2024 21: 04
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        We are talking about assembling the body.

                        The same is true for everything else: if it works, then why invent something new?
                      2. 0
                        April 19 2024 07: 49
                        Do you even understand about technical borrowing? We received something good, took it apart, measured it, made drawings, and launched it at home. We're used to it. And here in the (assembly) drawing it is written - in letters - to make it according to the best English samples. There are no images. That is, a “constructor” (a draftsman in the old way) meant that there was someone at the factory who knew how to do it. And he will explain to the workers. Maybe even the sketch will work.
                        Academician Krylov gives a picture of how it worked in an article dedicated to Titov. Titov himself makes a drawing of the davit, entrusting the same to the trainee Krylov. A situation that was self-evident at that time, completely incredible today.
    2. +1
      April 12 2024 20: 40
      since previously they fired at a higher projectile speed and also didn’t penetrate, the question is, why did they shoot?? tongue

      So in this case, they probably checked the strength of the armor, and not at all the penetration of the projectile. that is, this shelling that the quality of the armor is quite good - satisfies the technical requirements, but the fact that more can be achieved - they simply were not interested. the customer accepted the slabs of this series - but didn’t care about the rest. ,
      1. 0
        April 12 2024 22: 01
        If a projectile with maximum speed did not penetrate a plate, do you see the point in shooting at lower speeds? - And what does “good enough” mean? - And if a projectile of lesser thickness did not penetrate a plate? - How did you choose this particular armor thickness?
  8. 0
    April 12 2024 20: 00
    What about increasing armor hardness now? Applicable? No, it’s clear that armor today is not homogeneous, not on ships, etc., but still? I remember that German tanks at the beginning of World War II had Krupp armor, then they seemed to decide that toughness was more important than hardness, but how did it all end?
    1. 0
      April 12 2024 20: 24
      Fun question: is the resistance to a projectile important to you from armor, or is it its hardness/viscosity?
      1. 0
        April 12 2024 21: 11
        [quote] question - is the resistance to a projectile important to you from armor - or its hardness/viscosity?
        [/ quote
        The opposite question to you is Kostya1: which armor is better at stopping a projectile: hard and brittle, or softer but still viscous?
        1. 0
          April 12 2024 22: 04
          The one that, with a smaller thickness, does not penetrate with this projectile and does not splinter on the back side - but hardness/softness and toughness/fragility are of no concern - as well as the color in which the slab is painted
          1. 0
            April 12 2024 22: 30
            The one that, with a smaller thickness, does not penetrate with this projectile and does not cause chips on the back side - but I don’t really care about hardness/softness and toughness/fragility

            So it is clear that the armor that does not penetrate and does not chip from the inside is better.
            Can you specifically answer the question? After all, which armor is better for a tank: hard and brittle, or soft but tough?
    2. -1
      April 12 2024 20: 35
      I remember that German tanks at the beginning of World War II had Krupp armor, then they seemed to decide that toughness was more important than hardness, but how did it all end?

      I will express my personal assumption: a tank is many times smaller than a ship and therefore the tank is a single armored volume - in which the main danger is ammunition, which can explode from any fragment. And when the shell hit the very hard armor of the tank, sometimes without even penetrating it, but only knocking out the plug and fragments of the armor, then in addition to the shell itself, which was often a non-explosive blank, many fragments were knocked out of the armor, which hit the crew and ammunition. therefore, for a tank, tough armor that produces fewer fragments is more important.
      And the ship’s ammunition, as a rule, was below the waterline under the armored deck, so fragments of its own armor were unimportant to the ship.
      1. +3
        April 13 2024 06: 51
        Well, what can I say, if you can somehow understand from a tank, then from a ship everything is much more complicated. For a tank, it is important that the main calibers of anti-tank guns and enemy tanks, given the parameters of the distance and angle of contact, do not damage the internal volume, either by actually breaking through or by breaking off the back side of the armor plate.
        The ship is armored to withstand armor-piercing and high-explosive shells that threaten vital parts of the ship. In this case, only the full penetration with subsequent detonation of the explosives of the projectile matters. So if you place the main armor belt on the outer side of the side, then it is the durability of the plate that matters. As the Americans and British determined, the best value for a solid slab thickness is obtained with a 35 - 40% thickness of a cemented layer of moderate hardness (Br 600 - 650) and, accordingly, a plastic back layer with a tensile strength of 70 - 80 kg/mm2. In addition, the system of armored bulkheads located behind the armor belt localizes the resulting secondary fragments. In the presence of shielding thin armor that removes armor-piercing tips, on the contrary, the most effective armor is with a thin (less than 30%) cemented layer of high hardness (Br 700 - 750) and a sublayer with a slightly lower tensile strength (less than 70 kg/cm2) while maintaining sufficient ductility. As in the previous case, a system of localizing armored bulkheads is used.
        1. -6
          April 13 2024 11: 23
          Are you trying to outpace a Chelyabinsk resident in verbiage?
        2. 0
          April 20 2024 18: 18
          There is a very large amount of statistics on tanks. Both range and combat. And these are statistics, and not some averaged data from random hits.
          The asking price varies.
    3. 0
      April 13 2024 15: 34
      Quote: bk0010
      What about increasing armor hardness now? Applicable?

      Metal-ceramic elements are very widely used. Soviet tanks also had the notorious “corundum balls” in the turret armor.