Death on takeoff-2 or wait for a miracle?

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Death on takeoff-2 or wait for a miracle?

On March 5, 2024, at the National Defense Management Center of the Russian Federation, under the leadership of the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, Army General Sergei Shoigu, a thematic conference call was held with the leadership of the Armed Forces.

Many issues were discussed at the meeting, but we will be interested in one: the minister heard reports on the creation of a light military transport aircraft Il-212 with a PD-8 turbojet engine and gave his assessment.



In short:
- Il-212 will replace the aging fleet of An-26 and An-72;
- the aircraft will be distinguished by increased carrying capacity and flight range, ease of refueling and maintenance;
- the aircraft will be able to use unpaved, unequipped runways, and also operate in Arctic latitudes.

The United Aircraft Corporation has already begun developing the technical design of the aircraft; production of the prototype is scheduled for the end of 2026.

We will return to the minister’s words while we deal with what is already known.

The plane is called Il-212. It will be similar to the Il-112, the main difference is that the engines will be turbojet and located above the wing. And this is where the main questions begin.

Il-212 - a modernized Il-112V or a new aircraft?


There is a really important point here: the Il-112V, with its design flaws in terms of weight, weight distribution and other pleasures, was a frankly unflyable and dangerous aircraft. Which was confirmed by how his fate ended.


The tragedy in Kubinka, which claimed the lives of wonderful people and specialists. And for what? For the sake of showing off at the next “forum”.

If there is a modernization of the Il-112V, we have to think about how justified this is.

The Minister of Defense says this is a new aircraft. The head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, that is, the one who is responsible for the production, Denis Manturov, said last year that the Il-212 is a deeply modernized Il-112V.

Who is more right? Let's watch as calmly and impartially as possible, because if this flying coffin starts taking the lives of test pilots again, that's not the case.

The main difference between the Il-212 and the Il-112V is a pair of PD-8 engines that will be installed above the wing.


The idea is clear: the PD-8 is theoretically more powerful than the TV7-117ST-2 and has some other advantages unknown to us. Installed above the wing - of course, this is useful for increasing lift by passing a stream of exhaust gases over the wing and creating additional vacuum due to it, firstly, and the aircraft can be used on any kind of unpaved runways, without fear that something will fly into the engine something superfluous, secondly.

But here physics intervenes, which no one has canceled.

How much does our PD-8 weigh? With engine nacelle – 2300 kg. How much does TV7-117ST weigh? 500 kg.

That is, ONE PD-8 weighs twice as much as both turboprop engines. But that is not all.

It is clear that the turbofan PD-8 will also have more power. At takeoff, according to the data, the PD-8 gives 8 kgf, and the TV000-7 - only 117, and with an increase in speed, the thrust of the turboprop engine drops, in our case, to 3 kgf.

We understand that ONE PD-8 provides more thrust than both TV7-117s. Accordingly, the cruising speed of an aircraft with PD-8, like any turbojet aircraft, will be somewhere in the range of 750-900 km/h, while a turboprop aircraft has a cruising speed of 500-650 km/h.

We all understand here, but what should we understand specifically in this case?

But the fact that PD-8 needs a new wing. More powerful (in our case three times) and heavier engines will put more load on the wing, and something will have to be done about it. More precisely, count and make a new wing. Or more precisely, a new wing and that part of the center section to which it will be attached. The loads that fall on the wing will be transferred to the junction of the wing and fuselage.

But this is only the beginning of the carnival. The minister said that the new aircraft would have to replace the An-26 and An-72, right? And here the question also arises: But the planes are different!


The An-26 is a turboprop aircraft with a payload capacity of 5 kg.


The An-72 is a turbofan aircraft with a payload capacity of 10 kg. That is, everything is according to our layout: Il-000V with TV112-7 is clearly an An-117, but the new project with PD-26 is a replacement for the An-8.

Everything is very logical, the IL-212, which carries 5 tons of payload with such engines, is complete nonsense. Naturally, the aircraft’s carrying capacity will be increased, because there is no point in idling the engines, neither economic nor practical.

It’s like in a Gazelle, whose payload capacity is one and a half tons, and plug in a YaMZ-53441 diesel engine from a five-ton GAZon-next. It may be technically possible, but why, if the Gazelle’s frame and body are not designed for an honest 5 tons? Or you can, but not for long.

That is, two such powerful engines must be loaded. Yes, half. There will still be a reserve there, because the stunted TV112-7 frankly did not last the carcass of the Il-117V. So the PD-8 is an option, and you can actually increase the load capacity. Just up to 10 tons of An-72.

And here we will have to redo the fuselage. Lengthen, strengthen and so on. Lengthened, strengthened - hello, we need a new chassis system. Perhaps a different fuselage and wing will have to consider a new tail unit. There may well be such a scenario.

In general, not much remains: the cockpit, the electrical system, various systems not affected by alterations. Although the frankly poor fire extinguishing system definitely needs to be re-developed.

And yes, the result is no longer a replacement for the An-26, but really an An-72. And this is a different weight category...

But what if you don’t have to haul 10 tons? Flying an empty plane? Well, in general we have an order with this, the army is rich (it was), and it didn’t allow itself that. I can’t say how it is now. But the solution is at hand, since we are seriously talking about the revival of the Il-114.


True, they are going to equip the Il-114-300 with the same TV7-117, from which the Ministry of Defense is now so peculiarly moving away, but if anything, the transport Il-114T, with a payload capacity of 6 tons, was built and flew.

It is frankly negative that the base for the Il-212 will be the Il-112V, an aircraft during the development of which fatal miscalculations were made. Well, the TV7-117 engines were not suitable for this aircraft in terms of power at all, but in addition to the weak engines, there was a decent overweight of the entire structure, a mass imbalance, which is why it was necessary to load the aircraft with additional ballast so that it could somehow get off the ground.


For the sake of political decisions, the plane was nevertheless pushed into the sky and, without being tested at all (the total flight time was several hours), was sent to Kubinka, because it was necessary to show at least something of its “achievements.” Shown.

Now the plans are to replace the TV7-117S with PD-8 turbojet, which they want to install on the new import-substituted Superjets. But here, too, not everything is smooth. Where are these “replaced” Superjets? There is none of them. Why? Because there is no PD-8.

Here's another problem out of the blue: the engine. More precisely, its absence. Yes, there is a prototype, a prototype, whatever you want to call it. It was he who was “warmed up” on the Superjet in October last year. That is, not even a flight, not a “jump”. They simply installed the engine on the plane and turned it on. Okay, it worked. Already something, but they are telling us about 2026...

But I emphasize: this is a prototype. Prototype. In 2024, which is already heading towards the equator. There is information that two Superjets are equipped with new engines, but UEC has not yet given permission to take off.

And by 2030, if you believe Prime Minister Mishustin, there should be a series of “Superjets”, numbering 142 units. We have already provided data from this Government Resolution, but nothing, let us remind you again.



Are you seeing PD-8 engines for the Il-212 here? And I don't see. I don’t see it for the Be-200 either. Of course, the production of engines for the Ministry of Defense may follow a different program, this may well be the case, but this only means that there will be a fight over the engines.

Will the UEC be able to produce not 40+ PD-8s per year, but 80+? Again a difficult question.

And there are certain doubts that a truly “new” aircraft will be developed and built in the 2,5 years that remain until 2026.

Let me remind you that work on the Il-112V began in 2001, and the first flight took place in 2019. And since we have almost come to the conclusion that the Il-212 is not a modernized Il-112V, then in the timing of the implementation of such grandiose plans there may be... there may be all sorts of “shifts to the right” for 10-15 years.

In general, if the Il-112V was an airplane, and not a coffin with wings, the option of upgrading it to the PD-8 would be quite normal. Moreover, such a project was considered somewhere in 2007-2008.

But even if there was such a project, it did not reach the implementation stage. And taking into account all of the above, the path will have to start all over again.

They say that the IL-212 is now at the stage of forming a technical project. It's prompt, there are no objections. But what does “formation of a technical project” mean? This is what it means: the development of a technical design for an aircraft, then the development of design documentation, then the stage of building mock-ups, samples for statistical testing, and, finally, flight samples.

And they plan to do all this in less than three years? Unless the Ilyushin Design Bureau has some almost finished project, for example, one of those that was developed by the Design Bureau together with the Indian military, and which coincides as closely as possible with the Il-212 project. Then, of course, everyone will be in chocolate and in the remaining time the labor feat of creating the Il-212 will be accomplished.

In general, over the course of our 30 years, KB Ilyushin had many projects that remained on paper. And the emergence of such a project with the possibility of the most rapid processing into the Il-212 is really not the worst option.

HistoryBy the way, I knew examples of similar projects. For those interested, look at the history of the creation of such an interesting aircraft as the An-32. The Indian (yes, India again!) military, tired of destroying their C-130s on high-mountain sites in the areas bordering China, asked to cut down a high-altitude aircraft for them.

Over the course of a year, Antonov and his engineers worked out a project to replace the AI-24VT (2820 hp) engines of the An-26, which became the base, with more powerful AI-20DM engines (5180 hp) from the An-12. The thrust-to-weight ratio increased, which was important for high-altitude airfields; as a bonus, the carrying capacity also increased by more than a ton. In this case, it was necessary to install the engines on the wing and make gaps, since the increased size of the propellers did not have enough space for rotation, the blades touched the fuselage.


And as a result, the An-32 was produced in a decent series of 360 vehicles. And Antonov’s designers completed it in one year. “Can we do it again”? It would be nice, of course, but Antonov created the An-32 in 1976, working under slightly different conditions.

The fact that today the remnants of the once mighty Sergei Ilyushin Design Bureau will be able to create a new aircraft in two and a half years, especially after they were unable to do anything with the Il-112V, raises doubts. Moreover, I am sure that in 2026 it will be quietly announced that work on the Il-212 is continuing, but the deadlines have been slightly shifted.

Unless a miracle happens. But once a miracle already happened when the Il-112V was pushed into the air. But then everything fell into place, and the Il-112V killed three test pilots.

And here the question is: do we really need such miracles?
217 comments
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  1. +8
    April 5 2024 04: 16
    I am far from understanding aerodynamics, but the IL-112 has frankly stubby wings, let alone the 212. Not exactly a freak, but a defective device.
    1. +15
      April 5 2024 05: 52
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      I am far from understanding aerodynamics, but the IL-112 has frankly stubby wings, let alone the 212. Not exactly a freak, but a defective device.

      And in general, in appearance, its grace resembles an American “warthog”.
      Death on takeoff-2 or wait for a miracle?

      I see a line of people who didn’t get milk from the young goat and want to get it from the old one...
      Do we need to wait and what, when the very principles and incentives for the appearance of a miracle have been destroyed?
      1. +17
        April 5 2024 05: 57
        Quote: ROSS 42
        And in general, in appearance, its grace resembles an American “warthog”.

        The A-10 still has its own charm, but what’s more important is the wing, be healthy.
        1. +45
          April 5 2024 07: 44
          Great article! Only very naive people can take the reindeer herder’s tales about the new plane seriously.
          The only realistic way to replace the light transport aircraft An-26 and An-72 in the military aviation aviation is to completely copy the An-72 with the installation of a PD-8 on it and release it under the name Il.
          Il, which has been destroyed by the trade authorities for 35 years in a row, is not able to develop and produce a new transport aircraft, this is simply a fact. It will be a miracle if we manage to establish production of the An-72 with PD-8 in commercial quantities and for at least 10 years.
          1. +27
            April 5 2024 08: 29
            Quote: ramzay21
            The only realistic way to replace the light transport aircraft An-26 and An-72 in the military aviation aviation is to completely copy the An-72 with the installation of a PD-8 on it and release it under the name Il.

            Most likely this is exactly what will happen. And all this nonsense about the Il-212 as a conversion of the Il-112 to the PD-8 is just a cover story. Like “we are ours, we are new.” Reverse engineering of the An-72 will not pose any special problems - such aircraft have been in operation for a long time, technical documentation is available for them, and through industrial cooperation, at least 50% of all components were produced in the RSFSR and the Russian Federation. Moreover, they have already taken this path and are going to restart production of the An-124 "Ruslan" in Ulyanovsk, because they managed to copy the D-18 engines.
            As for replacing the An-26, there is also one workaround maneuver. Iran bought the license with the organization of the complete technical process for assembling the An-140. Created by order of the Russian Ministry of Defense for production on the territory of the Russian Federation, a couple of them were even assembled... but then Maidan 2014 happened and everything went haywire with cooperation. But Iran made a fuss ... but it, too, will not succeed without the supply of components, and then the brotherly shoulder of the RF Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industry and Trade in one person arrived. So now the Iranian Semurg (An-140) will be built in close cooperation... and most likely simultaneously in Iran and the Russian Federation.
            But the An-140 is still not a “freak/handsome gray” (Il-112), but a completely competent and high-quality designed machine. By order of the Russian Ministry of Defense, by the way.
            And there is no need to invent any “wunderwaffe”. BTA aircraft must not set speed records; they must be reliable, unpretentious, easy to operate and repair, economical, land on unpaved airfields and... be conservative in the best sense of the word.
            If only there was someone else to build them...
            1. +14
              April 5 2024 09: 36
              Most likely this is exactly what will happen. And all this nonsense about the Il-212 as a conversion of the Il-112 to the PD-8 is just a cover story.

              No, it won’t be like that, at least it won’t be like that under the current government. There is no one there to think in reality and not in an imagined reality.
              Reverse engineering of the An-72 will not pose any special problems - such aircraft have been in operation for a long time, technical documentation is available for them, and through industrial cooperation, at least 50% of all components were produced in the RSFSR and the Russian Federation.

              Judging by the fact that not a single Tu-214 has yet been produced in the presence of a ready-made plant and their piece assembly, and also by the difficulty with which the production of the Il-76 is going on, even by reverse engineering the An-72, even taking into account that we anything being done to him is a gigantic problem and serious work.
              It’s easy to destroy the aviation industry, but restoring it is not so easy, and judging by the steps being taken, we are not moving towards the development of the aviation industry. The aviation industry begins with competent leadership and strategic planning for decades to come, and the current government of the Russian Federation lives by momentary desires and the country and the aviation industry are governed by effective managers who have shown their abilities over 35 years.
              Moreover, they have already taken this path and are going to restart production of the An-124 "Ruslan" in Ulyanovsk, because they managed to copy the D-18 engines.

              This is another fairy tale that even the reindeer herder who invented it has long forgotten about. Who do you have to be to take this nonsense seriously?
              As for replacing the An-26, there is also one workaround maneuver. Iran bought the license with the organization of the complete technical process for assembling the An-140.

              Are you tired of this nonsense with multi-move machines yet? Do you really believe this?
              And what does the great country of Iran have to do with it? Do you think that good guys will fly in from Iran and begin to decide what the leadership of our country is unable to do? It's like if your TV broke and instead of making an effort and buying a new one, you wait for your neighbor to come and buy you a new TV.
              1. +5
                April 5 2024 12: 09
                How much does our PD-8 weigh? With engine nacelle – 2300 kg. How much does TV7-117ST weigh? 500 kg.
                It's a strange comparison:
                the weight of one engine with engine nacelle is compared with the dry weight of another engine

                And the fact that the PD-8 needs a new wing.
                The fact that the wing will be different, and swept (for the Il-112 - straight) was announced immediately. I also came across information that the body was originally made for a swept wing, and when they decided to install a straight one on it, a shifted alignment appeared.
                And in general, with the advent of the Il-112 aircraft there are many ambiguities (the plane appeared out of nowhere).
                1. 0
                  April 6 2024 19: 24
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  We also came across information that the hull was originally made for a swept wing

                  Why does a transport aircraft with a maximum speed of about 500 km/h need a swept wing?
                  1. 0
                    April 6 2024 20: 19
                    Quote: DenVB
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    We also came across information that the hull was originally made for a swept wing

                    Why does a transport aircraft with a maximum speed of about 500 km/h need a swept wing?

                    If you decide to install much more powerful turbojet engines, then, of course, the cruising speed will be higher.
                    1. +3
                      April 6 2024 22: 19
                      If you install the engine ABOVE the wing, then the high-wing design cannot be used. Otherwise, it turns out that the engines are not just above the wing, but generally above the plane, on the side.
                      A significant part of the aerodynamics of the wings will be required not for lift, but for lifting the nose up so that it does not go into a dive.
                      And the failure of one engine will inevitably crash the plane, although with a different engine configuration it could fly.
                      Optimally, the engines should be in the same plane as the center of drag.
                      1. +1
                        April 6 2024 22: 29
                        Quote: Shurik70
                        And the failure of one engine will inevitably crash the plane, although with a different configuration it could fly.
                        In the photo there is an An-72 (it will be similar on the Il-212). Judging by the fact that no sooty deposits are visible next to the black coating of the wing, then the exhaust from the engine is coming from within the black coating. Almost flush against the body of the aircraft, which will have a positive effect when flying on one engine.
                      2. 0
                        April 6 2024 22: 53
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        In the photo An-72

                        Good example.
                        I don’t know why the AN-72 engines were positioned this way.
                        Perhaps, when landing on earthen airfields, the exhaust from a low-mounted engine raised too much dust, and individual flying pebbles could damage something.
                        But this does not cancel all of the above - the load capacity is lower, fuel consumption is higher.
              2. +3
                April 5 2024 12: 23
                This whole bacchanalia did not start now; the problems for medium and light transport workers are the same - no engine can buy a license for the AI-24 from the PRC, this will solve 2 problems at once - there will be engines for the remaining AN fleet and it is possible to build a conditional "An-24" based on new technologies. Unless of course we have them.
                1. 0
                  April 10 2024 21: 58
                  Those. It’s possible to build an An-26 without a license, but not an AI-24? Strictly speaking, AI is a Soviet engine, and should we buy a license for it?
              3. +3
                April 5 2024 13: 20
                Quote: ramzay21
                No, it won’t be like that, at least it won’t be like that under the current government. There is no one there to think in reality and not in an imagined reality.

                But with the release of ammunition, modernization and production of new armored vehicles, the issue was nevertheless resolved and continues to be resolved quite well. But also 2 years ago, one bare “wisdom” was pearl. The goal setting has changed - they also need to survive. So even before, the “effective” ones began to work... And even produce results.

                Quote: ramzay21
                Judging by the fact that not a single Tu-214 has yet been produced in the presence of a ready-made plant and their piece assembly

                Firstly, there was some equipment missing. But the most important thing is that the airlines are stubborn - we will only buy it with a double cabin.
                Well, Manturov-Balabol in his repertoire is citizen Obeshchalkin. As always, he lied big time and didn’t lift a finger for execution, maintaining knightly discipline.
                Quote: ramzay21
                even by reverse engineering the An-72, even taking into account that we are producing something for it, this is a gigantic problem and serious work.

                So no one says that in a year or two the plane will appear and go into production. The easiest way is to take an An-72 glider without engines and test the PD-8 on it. Then reverse engineering based on the experience of assembling the An-158 in the Russian Federation before the Maidan. They have a similar airframe design.
                And yes, it will be a lot of work. And since we are now taking months, not years, from a prototype to serial production, it is time to stimulate it here too. And all because they ALSO WANT TO LIVE. Moreover, they now know very well about what is happening and their own prospects in case of defeat. And there is no better workaholic than a lazy person under threat of death.

                Quote: ramzay21
                it turned out to copy the D-18 engines.

                This is another fairy tale that even the reindeer herder who invented it has long forgotten about.

                This is not a fairy tale. We have been capitalizing on D-18 engines for a long time and solving the issue of import substitution for a number of components. Most likely, we managed to drag over some engineering and design personnel from Motor Sich. And here is the result - localization of production of the D-18M in Russia. . These engines are needed not only for military An-124s, but also for civilians from Volga (transport company). And for the new "Ruslans", because their joint production with used ones was planned to begin back in 2015. They were going to build over a hundred of them just for the Russian Federation. So an engine is needed. But time has been lost and new personnel will need to be trained - many of the old people have left.
                Quote: ramzay21
                Iran bought the license with the organization of the complete technical process for assembling the An-140.

                Are you tired of this nonsense with multi-move machines yet?

                This is not nonsense, but an initiative of the Iranian side. They lost the opportunity for production cooperation with used ones, so they turned to our side. And we ourselves need this very plane, and not the creation of the gloomy “genius” Rogozin the Younger.
                Iran itself will not be able to complete this program, but together with us it will. Such cooperation is also beneficial for us, and cooperation in both directions.

                And about the performers. Of course, young men have hopes, and I have long since left this age, but soon a new composition of the Cabinet will be formed. More than six months ago they convinced me that Manturov (and someone else) would not be in the new lineup. Let's see . Maybe the hard workers will catch up. And the majors - on vacation. In any case, Mishustin, as prime minister, gets the job done. And he doesn't get involved in politics. If they hire the same performers, then things can go much more fun.
                But there is a considerable probability that many of us will not live to see the end of this year. - the cart of the West has gone into disarray.
                1. +2
                  April 5 2024 17: 20
                  I completely agree, since 2014, when I registered on the site, there have been all sorts of projects, all sorts of “allies” who will help us and everything will work out, this is true in everything from naval aviation to infantry fighting vehicles. There's no way it was and won't be like that. Some projects or prodigies in 10 copies
                  1. +5
                    April 5 2024 19: 35
                    Since 2014, when I registered on the site, there have been so many projects, no “allies” who will help us and everything will work out, this is true in everything from naval aviation to infantry fighting vehicles. There's no way it was and won't be like that. Some projects or prodigies in 10 copies

                    Why are you surprised, look at the list of officials who were involved in the projects. Almost everyone is a millionaire. The annual income of many can be equal to the income of all residents of a small city combined for a year. No incentive, no results. It’s difficult to condemn them, such conditions exist in the country, and smart and literate people who have their own opinions are not held in high esteem. We'll see later.
              4. 0
                April 10 2024 21: 24
                The whole difficulty of aircraft manufacturing today lies in the plane of the engine. There will be an engine and there will be airplanes.
            2. +1
              April 5 2024 10: 57
              The An-140 was built in Samara, all the equipment is there, and so is the desire. But the question is about engines (and other components). Does Iran make it itself or did it get it from Ukraine? If in Ukraine, then again only TV7-117ST.
              There is also a developed transport project based on the TVRS-44 Ladoga, TV7-117ST-02. Maybe UZGA will do better. TVRS-44 "Ladoga" is scheduled to fly in a year.
              1. +3
                April 5 2024 13: 36
                Quote from shikin
                Does Iran make it itself or did it get it from Ukraine? If in Ukraine, then again only TV7-117ST.

                Iranian comrades claim that they are already making the engine themselves, also under license. But the An-140 is not an aerodynamic misunderstanding of the Il-112. And his airframe is designed competently, not overweight. So the TV7-117ST is just right for him. Yes, and we seem to have brought it to mind, or at least brought it up to the level required for the Il-114. And if so, then the An-140 airframe will pull out.
                But for the IL-112 you need an engine with a take-off thrust of at least 3 - 500 hp. That's the main problem. Such a glider requires a different, more powerful engine.
                Quote from shikin
                There is also a developed transport project based on the TVRS-44 Ladoga, TV7-117ST-02. Maybe UZGA will do better.

                "Ladoga" is a much lighter aircraft; its engine output of 2500 - 2750 hp is enough. Slightly deform it, you will immediately get a sharp increase in resource and reliability. Therefore, I don’t have any special worries about the Ladoga in terms of the engine.
                So for us, the production of the An-140, especially in cooperation with Iran (and this means an increase in serial production, which means a reduction in price, an increase in quality, reliability, and availability of spare parts) is without alternative beneficial. And on the engines we have. And this is exactly the plane that our Ministry of Defense chose even before the Maidan.
            3. 0
              April 5 2024 17: 02
              I agree with you about the possibility of producing new Il-212s based on the deeply modernized An-72. Moreover, new, more economical engines will provide a much greater range, PD-8 engines are much more powerful than the Ukrainian D-36, so the load capacity can be increased (by 30%). To do this, it seems that the fuselage will have to be lengthened. but this is exactly what they did when modernizing the Il-76 and Il-96. As a result, the IL-76's carrying capacity increased from 40 to 60 tons. The use of a carbon fiber wing will further reduce the take-off weight, and therefore increase the payload. The result will be a completely modern machine that bears little resemblance to the original An-72. And so, any technique is based on previous developments. As for the greater perfection of the An-140 compared to the Il-112, the An should be compared with the Il-114, the same as the Ukrainian civil aircraft. Our Il-114 is not worse, but better than the An-140. The Semurg project has withered away, so the Iranians may have to produce the Il-114 jointly with us.
              1. +1
                April 5 2024 19: 37
                Quote: Andrey A
                Our Il-114 is not worse, but better than the An-140. The Semurg project has withered away, so the Iranians may have to produce the Il-114 jointly with us.

                The Semurg has a ramp in a cargo version, and it is lighter than the Il-114, which means the engines will not operate at the limit of their capabilities and this will have a positive effect on reliability and service life. In addition, the Ministry of Defense needs a replacement not for the An-24, but for the An-26, and in such a form that it can accept an engine from a fighter through the ramp and drag it away for repairs. So as not to drive the IL-76 for such reasons as now.
                And as a replacement for the An-24, the Oriole will do just fine - a light, reliable regional aircraft, for transporting command staff and travel allowances. And on more serious routes and with a larger load, it’s the IL-0.
                By the way, our Semurg\An-140 can be completely renamed Il-140. Moreover, it was developed with our money for our Moscow Region.
                1. 0
                  April 6 2024 19: 41
                  "Semurg" is no lighter than our Il-112 (both have a take-off weight of 21 tons), the engines are the same, ours. Of course, we could help Iran, given that we are practically allies and light transport aircraft, even if assembled in Iran, will not interfere with us (and it is quite possible that this will be the case). It just seems to me that our military wanted to get a larger transport aircraft than the Il-112, and the existing Il-76 is too big. So an interim project arose - Il-212.
                  1. 0
                    April 6 2024 20: 34
                    Quote: Andrey A
                    "Semurg" is no lighter than our Il-112 (both have a take-off weight of 21 tons), the engines are the same, ours.

                    What about the cross section of the fuselage?
                    What about the wing?
                    What about centering?
                    “Semurga” was not developed by Rogozin the Younger... with young secretaries.
                    Quote: Andrey A
                    It seems to me that our military wanted to get a larger transport aircraft than the Il-112

                    No, they need a light transporter. With a load capacity of 5-6 tons. And so that it can carry a fighter engine (in terms of dimensions) in the fuselage.
                    Quote: Andrey A
                    - IL-212.

                    Aircraft for the Arctic and unpaved strips. The same An-72 under a new brand and with new engines.
                    1. 0
                      April 9 2024 20: 14
                      Well, I don’t argue: Semurg could replace the Il-112 and not because it’s better, because it’s troublesome for us now, in the conditions of the Northern Military District, to produce everything at our factories, and the Iranians will be pleased. And a deeply modernized An-72 under the Il-212 brand, with new engines, a new wing, an extended fuselage, and a significantly increased payload and range, would also take its place.
                      1. 0
                        April 9 2024 21: 10
                        Quote: Andrey A
                        I don’t argue: Semurg could replace the IL-112 and not because it’s better

                        First of all, it's BETTER. Because it was developed by order of the RF Ministry of Defense, and also passed a tender, where its competitor was ... a sketch of the Il-112. They remembered about “Handsome Gray” only when, after the coup in Kyiv, we were thrown out of all our joint programs.
                        Quote: Andrey A
                        It’s troublesome for us now, in the conditions of the Northern Military District, to produce everything at our factories, and the Iranians will be pleased.

                        And again no.
                        We will produce Semurg at home, and in the same place where we have already begun to assemble it. And they even managed to assemble two An-140s. But we will build it together with Iran and in production cooperation with it. Moreover, our share in the cooperation will be the most key components that Iran planned to receive from used ones.
                        Those. We will collect everything from ourselves in close production cooperation.
                        Quote: Andrey A
                        deeply modernized An-72 under the Il-212 brand, with new engines, a new wing, an extended fuselage, with a significantly increased payload and range

                        But this won’t work right away/quickly. How much will it take for R&D, a new technical project, to select suppliers for cooperation, to select the NPP itself for its construction. In addition, it is necessary to establish the production of engines so that there is enough for the Superjet, the Be-200, and the An-212. All these aircraft are going to be built in a decent series and quite a lot of engines will be needed, including spare ones.
                      2. 0
                        April 10 2024 15: 25
                        Wait and see. In any case, the Il-212 will use completely different engines than those on the Semurga or the An-140, in particular the PD-8 (they are 2.5 times more powerful), this has been officially announced. And this assumes a completely different aircraft, with a completely different payload, range, etc. And this is a fact, our assumptions do not change anything.
                      3. 0
                        April 10 2024 18: 04
                        What does this have to do with the Il-212 (about which there is only talk) and the An-140 "Semurg"? These are generally incomparable aircraft.
                        Not with anything .
                        If the talk about the Il-212 is at least somewhat justified and work is underway, then it will be a slightly enlarged copy of the An-72.
                    2. 0
                      April 9 2024 20: 29
                      Well, I don’t argue: Semurg could replace the Il-112 and not because it’s better, because it’s troublesome for us now, in the conditions of the Northern Military District, to produce everything at our factories, and the Iranians will be pleased. The problem may be with the rights to the aircraft, so it is easier for the Iranians to arrange production of the Il-112, which is no worse than the Semurg and the engines are the same, and this is the main thing. And a deeply modernized An-72 under the Il-212 brand, with new engines, a new wing, an extended fuselage, and a significantly increased payload and range, would also take its place. Moreover, the scale of cargo transportation is growing, the engines, which were mainly intended to be carried on light transport vehicles, are becoming heavier, so 5 tons of carrying capacity may not be enough. So the An-72, it seems to me, will be able to take the position of the An-26, it has a future.
          2. 0
            April 5 2024 08: 41
            It is not necessary to copy the An-72, although the plane is not bad. Its production was discontinued in Kharkov in 2016, and it is unlikely that they will be able to resume it. There is a D-27 engine, which is much better suited for VTA (Il-212) in a number of ways.
            1. 2al
              0
              April 5 2024 11: 32
              The D-27 could pull out the BTA projects, especially since the propfan for it was made in the Russian Federation. But of course, at this stage it is more realistic to count on a new PD-10 with a propfan, since the PD-10 line will have helicopter engines, just like the TV7-117 line.
              1. -1
                April 5 2024 12: 01
                How much more time does it take to finalize PD-10? A year, three, five? And to D 27 - 30 km. The engine has already been released in a small series and has been put into production.
                1. +2
                  April 5 2024 12: 06
                  Well, firstly, these 30 km still need to be covered, and secondly, it is not known what state the production will be in after the liberation of Zaporozhye.
                  1. 0
                    April 5 2024 12: 10
                    I agree that it is not simple and possible, and that it is not fast. But, probably, it’s still faster than bringing PD-10 to fruition. The plant is working, although mainly for repairs.
                    1. +3
                      April 5 2024 13: 40
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The plant is operating, although mostly for repairs.

                      I'm afraid that both the plant and the city will be left with only ruins. But the D-27 is really not an engine, but a dream.
                      I think it’s better to do everything ourselves, because peace will not come soon on that land. It seems that all parties to the global conflict chose her as a Battlefield. Convenient for everyone except the natives of this Field.
                      1. -1
                        April 5 2024 15: 01
                        Battlefield - yes. But during the two years of the war, the plant did not suffer much, because 56% belongs to China. These are not the guys who will allow themselves to be disadvantaged in any way.
                      2. +2
                        April 5 2024 15: 36
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        56% belongs to China. These are not the guys who will allow themselves to be disadvantaged in any way.

                        Nevertheless, the Sumerians canceled the deal, did not return the money, they even nationalized it... And then they tried to sell it to the Turks. lol They cheated the Chini people more than once in other transactions - they buy that plant, pay the money, draw up the documents, come in - and there are bare walls. laughing The entire machine park and technical documentation were removed. A scandal, of course, but they are so spoiled.
                        And Zaporozhye will most likely be reduced to rubbish.
                      3. +1
                        April 5 2024 16: 13
                        The deal is still in limbo, from a legal point of view. They'll roll out the bill, it's quite possible. Workshop 64 has just arrived.
                  2. +1
                    April 7 2024 02: 45
                    Quote: Pioneer1984
                    It is not known what state the production will be in after the liberation of Zaporozhye.

                    Production means people, and they are unlikely to stay. If tomorrow they announce that Motor Sich will be captured, then there will be nothing useful there without people, documentation and processes. Everyone from Antonov and Motor Sich who wanted to work for the Russian Federation has been working for a long time.
                2. 2al
                  +1
                  April 5 2024 13: 22
                  As an analogue (third-party assessment), you can take the history of the creation of the TV7-117 line, then the period with an optimistic estimate is at least 10 years for the civilian version from the current state according to their resource requirements. For the military, it takes 6 years (in combat conditions 4 years) to reach a resource that is completely acceptable to them. But there is one BUT, now Cost and Quantity are important for the military! But there are difficulties with this for the technologies used in the PD line, but there is also a considerable probability of a breakthrough due to the development and large-scale use of 3D printing, on our own printers and from our own consumables.
                  1. 0
                    April 5 2024 13: 25
                    TV 7 - 117 is a very good engine, much better than TV 3 - 117 or VK - 2500, but it is in a different weight category.
            2. 0
              April 6 2024 19: 42
              Well, after all, the D-27 is a Ukrainian engine and it is unlikely that we will be able to organize its mass production.
              1. 0
                April 6 2024 20: 55
                It has already been organized, even a small series has been released - 20 pieces. 30 km left.
          3. -1
            April 5 2024 12: 51
            What are you saying? What about getting up from your knees? But what about “Russians have never lived so well”? This was destroyed in the nineties. Since 99 we have developed exclusively.
            1. 0
              April 5 2024 15: 02
              It's because you didn't live a shitty life. You have nothing to compare with, come to Ukraine - appreciate the development and progress)))
          4. 0
            April 5 2024 17: 25
            But this is an idea! Once upon a time, the Tupolevites pulled a trick with the B29, turning it into the Tu4..
          5. 0
            April 6 2024 10: 10
            Is the article great? And that everyone forgot about the Ilyushin MTS or Il-276, which was developed since 2000. We don't have memory lapses
          6. 0
            April 11 2024 15: 19
            Like in the cartoon... “I don’t understand anything...” The An 26 could lift 5 tons with less engine power, but why can’t the Il 112? Or is it simply that Ilyushin Design Bureau cannot design aircraft? Well, copy it from someone! Not necessarily from Antonov. Scratch it and pass it off as your own.
        2. 0
          April 5 2024 15: 43
          One glance at the appearance of this freak was enough and I couldn’t bring myself to finish reading the entire article. It’s like with a woman’s appearance, you immediately evaluate - I want / I don’t want... I don’t want!
      2. +9
        April 5 2024 08: 02
        Do we need to wait and what, when the very principles and incentives for the appearance of a miracle have been destroyed?

        Well, there are other options, like in the joke about our auto industry.
        There are two options:
        The first is fantastic - all employees at their jobs will start working as they should, and we will catch up and surpass the foreign auto industry.
        The second is realistic - aliens will arrive and do everything for us.
        PySy, as for me, during the reign of GDP, the whip in personnel management is not used at all. And a demonstrative flogging with confiscation of all property, even from a second cousin’s nephew, would give some an incentive to work.
        1. +2
          April 5 2024 10: 40
          There will be no flogging. In our country they are organized for the appearance of punishment and work before the elections, and then they punish not “their own”. And if they scold you for something serious, then only when the culprit is already at a safe distance. Look, many oligarchs began to be scolded ONLY after they flew to other countries. And while they were here, there were no questions for them.
        2. +2
          April 5 2024 10: 44
          Quote: Popandos
          There are two options:
          The first is fantastic - all employees at their jobs will start working as they should, and we will catch up and surpass the foreign auto industry.
          The second is realistic - aliens will arrive and do everything for us.

          The third imperialist one is to seize the Antonov Design Bureau and instruct it to continue production of the AN family of aircraft.
          The fourth people's rule is to replace the whip in management with a stake for the highest leaders.
          1. +1
            April 5 2024 12: 18
            Quote: atos_kin
            The third imperialist one is to seize the Antonov Design Bureau and instruct it to continue production of the AN family of aircraft.

            It won’t help - they have the same problem: first make an airplane, and then load it with ballast so that it can fly. smile
    2. -1
      April 5 2024 14: 14
      Have you calculated the specific wing load? Have you calculated takeoff and landing characteristics?
      1. 0
        April 5 2024 14: 15
        Quote: Eugene_4
        Have you calculated the specific wing load? Have you calculated takeoff and landing characteristics?

        I see sizes and relationships with my classmates. Don't you see them?
        1. -1
          April 5 2024 14: 30
          Give examples of wing loads. Takeoff and landing characteristics.
          Then we'll discuss.
          1. -1
            April 5 2024 14: 37
            Quote: Eugene_4
            Then we'll discuss.
            Nice, jump in with questions, and then set conditions...


            Quote: Eugene_4
            Give examples of wing loads. Takeoff and landing characteristics.

            Give examples of successful cars with these proportions.
            Then we will discuss.
            1. 0
              April 5 2024 14: 56
              The fact of the matter is that you are zero in aviation. There is nothing to discuss with you...
              1. -1
                April 5 2024 14: 59
                Quote: Eugene_4
                The fact of the matter is that you are zero in aviation. There is nothing to discuss with you...

                And you are zero in Internet discussions. Gurgle, do not confirm your words with anything and merge...
                I think that in aviation you are also the same value.
                1. -2
                  April 6 2024 07: 38
                  In your words. “I am far from understanding aerodynamics, but the Il-112 has frankly stubby wings.” Here is your summary.
                  Believe me, without you there are normal competent people here with whom you can talk, with the commentators below.
                  1. 0
                    April 6 2024 10: 04
                    Quote: Eugene_4
                    In your words. “I am far from understanding aerodynamics, but the Il-112 has frankly stubby wings.” Here is your summary.
                    Believe me, without you there are normal competent people here with whom you can talk, with the commentators below.

                    You have not cited a word that contradicts MY point of view. Literally.
                    You don't have basic skills in arguing.
                    This is such a shame...

                    The IL-112 is a plane with stubby wings and you cannot refute this in any way!
                    1. -1
                      April 6 2024 18: 45
                      What are stubby wings?
                      In what course on aircraft design can you find this wonderful term?
                      1. 0
                        April 6 2024 18: 50
                        Quote: Eugene_4
                        What are stubby wings?

                        Are you not comfortable with the Russian language?

                        Insufficient length
                        defective
                        S. I. Ozhegov, N. Yu. Shvedova. Explanatory dictionary of the Russian language

                        The IL-112 is a plane with stubby wings and you cannot refute this in any way!
    3. -1
      April 5 2024 19: 51
      But in general, why is this IL112/212 needed if there is already an AN72? The length, diameter of the fuselage, only a little smaller, everything has been flying for a long time, everything has been shot, everything is in ammunition? Why bother? Cut again?
    4. -1
      April 6 2024 00: 47
      so maybe it would be worth adding two engines to the wing, strengthening and lengthening it. At the same time, there will be time to shake up the fuselage. Release a batch of Il 212A with these engines, consisting of 20 aircraft with a payload capacity of 10-12 tons, and then upgrade the engine being upgraded to greater power and release the next modification and move on to a twin-engine aircraft. It's a shame to lose groundwork on a turboprop.
      The An-12 is also close to its age limit and they also need replacement.
      Tupolev once converted the unsuccessful Tu-22 m2 into m3.
      Moreover, there is the An-148, which can be turned into a jet transport much faster by replacing the engines and modifying the fuselage for a cargo cabin with a ramp.
    5. 0
      April 6 2024 03: 15
      This is how you have to ruin a country in order to make a new plane hysterically in the comments.
  2. +33
    April 5 2024 04: 26
    Personally, I have no doubt that talk about the Il-212 is empty talk. The basis is a list of those senior officials who are involved in this project. Their main professional achievement is shifting deadlines to the right to infinity and even further. Always.
    1. +22
      April 5 2024 04: 48
      They also forgot to add to the achievements the friendly cutting of budgets, as well as the awarding of prizes, bonuses and a wide variety of goodies to your loved ones.
    2. +7
      April 5 2024 05: 34
      Quote: avia12005
      The basis is a list of those senior officials who are involved in this project.

      Managers simply have no choice. They simply cannot name real dates - they will be asked - what have they been doing for 20 years? The answer - the same as others - will not be accepted...
  3. +28
    April 5 2024 04: 27
    It seems that aircraft designers were much more productive with drawing boards and whatman paper than with high-tech cutting and modeling.
    1. +7
      April 5 2024 04: 48
      And this could be direct sabotage in the interests of common people, or errors in CAD, and the state system is different, today nothing will happen to anyone for missing deadlines,
      1. +8
        April 5 2024 06: 42
        Today nothing will happen to anyone for missing deadlines,
        How is it that nothing will happen? It will be very possible. Additional funding will be provided, as well as awards and bonuses. Maybe they’ll even give you some kind of order.
      2. +1
        April 5 2024 10: 50
        And this could be direct sabotage in the interests of common people, or errors in CAD, and the state system is different, today nothing will happen to anyone for missing deadlines,

        Easily. This is a strategic industry, can you imagine how much has been introduced there in 30 years? It needs a total cleaning. Yes
        1. +1
          April 6 2024 08: 52
          After the inauguration, the government will resign. If after this there will be the same ... persons in the “new” government, then all the “projects” and the deadlines for their implementation can be shoved into ..... until a characteristic click. Not a damn thing will change. Either a government consisting of professionals, or...
      3. -1
        April 5 2024 20: 20
        Quote: evgen1221
        And the state system is different, today nothing will happen to anyone for missing deadlines,
        Who told you this? If the delivery is delayed by 1 day, the PZ will automatically file a lawsuit. There are websites where they post cases being considered in court, look at how many lawsuits there are against defense companies. Moreover, no one cares about the reasons for the delay. Just think, there are no components, no programmers... And you can’t imagine force majeure: they didn’t declare war. And the defense industry (maybe not all, but known to me) sits in debt. Moreover, the law was passed with responsibility for the refusal of the state defense order.
        1. ANB
          +1
          April 5 2024 23: 14
          . no programmers...

          They won’t exist if the director put the money for the order in his pocket and is trying to hire someone with the remaining tears.
    2. IVZ
      +6
      April 5 2024 05: 05
      It seems that aircraft designers were much more productive with drawing boards and whatman paper than with high-tech cutting and modeling.
      Not more productive, but more competent. The 90s were not in vain. Yes, and they will continue to haunt us for a long time. Moreover, it is not only a matter of designers, but also of management and the availability of the necessary components mastered by the domestic industry.
      1. +1
        April 5 2024 05: 44
        An employee can be as competent as he likes and still be completely unproductive. There are just examples all around. In this case, I would bet on ambitious amateurs.
        1. IVZ
          +5
          April 5 2024 05: 59
          In this case, I would bet on ambitious amateurs.
          So now everyone is betting on them - the result is obvious. It’s easier with them because for the vast majority of managers the process is more important than the result. But an ambitious amateur is one who wants to, but cannot. I thought it was time to understand this and finally start training personnel, if there is still someone left to train them
          1. -3
            April 5 2024 06: 32
            At the beginning of the work, everyone is an amateur. This is where the breakthroughs on which we stand are made.
            1. IVZ
              +4
              April 5 2024 06: 41
              What kind of breakthroughs? While there is exploitation and attempts to develop still Soviet foundations and no more successful attempts to use (and in fact, attempts to copy) “foreign experience” on our technological base.
              1. +2
                April 5 2024 07: 04
                I didn’t say that we were having breakthroughs. I am very far from such an opinion.
      2. +13
        April 5 2024 07: 59
        The 90s were not in vain.

        The paradox is that the first 90s ended 24 years ago, and in the aviation industry everything became much worse. In 2000 alone, 4 fully domestic passenger aircraft were produced for our airlines, and 2020 from 2023 to 0.
    3. +8
      April 5 2024 05: 58
      Quote: Prokop_Svinin
      It seems that with a drawing board and whatman paper, aircraft designers were much more productive

      Why are you so pessimistic... We are ahead of the rest in terms of concepts and various models... And in terms of drawing red lines, we have no equal at all.
    4. +9
      April 5 2024 06: 45
      In the times of drawing board and Whatman paper there were engineers. But now there are practically no such people, the old ones have been harassed by a non-prestigious profession and low salaries. Young people went and go into management, trade, management. And no one can pass on their work experience to several young engineers, there is no one. But the experience of blurring your eyes and blowing dust as much as you like.
    5. +5
      April 5 2024 07: 12
      that the aircraft designers had a drawing board and whatman paper
      + + + +
      Alas, Kulman and Whatman are not in our design bureaus.
      1. +10
        April 5 2024 07: 27
        Mishustin spoke with pride just now, saying that they attracted old specialists of 60-70 years in the field of metals, and so on.. Damn breakthrough, they found something to be proud of.. The engineering school was literally practically destroyed. They made a bomb on a slide rule and flew it into space, but now...
      2. +4
        April 5 2024 07: 47
        Quote: Grim Reaper
        Alas, Kulman and Whatman are not in our design bureaus

        What about navigators, pilots and midshipmen? wink
        1. +3
          April 5 2024 08: 08
          navigators
          There are no navigators in GA anymore. So, they stayed here and there in the VKS.
          1. +1
            April 5 2024 16: 26
            Quote: Aviator_
            There are no navigators in GA anymore. So, we stayed here and there in the VKS

            Civil aviation aircraft fly along a predetermined route according to standards World DME and there is no need for a navigator. But long-range aviation, partly Frontline and Transport - all with navigators. You simply cannot do without them...
            1. +2
              April 5 2024 17: 00
              Civil aviation aircraft fly along a predetermined route according to World DME standards and there is no need for a navigator.
              + + + + +
              Yes. We were all cool until the first power outage throughout the entire airfield. How will the commander decide how to approach the landing? Well, around 3-4 turns? No, it’s bullshit, we won’t die if we live. That's why I'm afraid to fly. I've seen enough of everything, from dispatchers to crews.
              “I’d rather buy a snake or a turtle, but I say to you: go, go.....” (C)
          2. +1
            April 5 2024 16: 30
            There are no navigators in GA anymore. So, they stayed here and there in the VKS.
            Reply
            Quote
            There's no one there. Two people. However, as far as I know, they are still trained to be junior assistant navigators
            Anek with a beard.
            -Dad, what is six-six?
            Dad, the navigator, takes out a slide rule....
            - well, somewhere around 35-37
            - And the teacher said that it was exactly 36!
            Dad looks closely.
            - Well, yes. But why such precision?
          3. 0
            April 5 2024 16: 44
            There are no more GA navigators. So, they stayed here and there in the VKS.

            Although they are taught something, and GA, I can’t imagine how they can do it if all the navigation points fail. Nl this is not the worst thing. You can fly according to landmarks and a map. But this is how they will approach the landing in the event of failure of the near/distant drive, rbsn, heading/glide path. I can't imagine. Even in the 80s -90s, when I served in the military aviation it was very difficult (they simulated a complete failure of electronic equipment) Plus difficult weather conditions, plus a simulation of the failure of one or two engines. (An 12) Oh..... Small, and even large, obscene bender is just childish babble. :)
            Nevertheless, everyone coped quite well. True, after, a glass of vodka was like a sip of mineral water :))
            1. 0
              April 5 2024 19: 06
              My father (the Li-40 navigator in the 50s and 2s) told me that alcohol was used as an anti-icing liquid, which was supposed to flow from the tank (40 l) onto the windows. But they found more useful uses for it, and the navigator was responsible for the consumption of alcohol.
              1. 0
                April 5 2024 19: 18
                I don’t know about Li2, but when they arrived at our airfield (by flight) instantly 25 - that’s it. We stood in line for massandra (almost alcohol) as they called it. For some reason, it was at our airfield that Mig25 was drained/refueled. Why this is so, I don’t know.
                1. +1
                  April 5 2024 19: 56
                  I don't know about Li2,

                  This is a completely different era. And the MiG-25 was with us in Shatalovo when I was training there. Yes, there is "massandra". For some reason in the navy they call it an “awil”.
                  1. 0
                    April 5 2024 19: 59
                    For some reason this didn’t happen with other planes, Mig 21, 23, Su 24. Exactly moment 25.
                    Apparently the rules of operation :)))
                    1. 0
                      April 5 2024 20: 01
                      For some reason this didn’t happen with other planes, Mig 21, 23, Su 24. Exactly moment 25.
                      Massandra was in the air conditioning system on the 25th.
                      1. +1
                        April 5 2024 20: 02
                        Did not know. And who am I in those days, lieutenant, so that you know. :)))
                  2. ANB
                    0
                    April 5 2024 23: 23
                    . For some reason in the navy they call it an “awil”.

                    In fact, the navy is older than aviation. Shilo - strictly undiluted food grade. Our commander categorically sent his rear guards when he tried to slip in a technical one. One 2503 takes 180 kg of clean. In the old days, during exercises and continuous production, they managed to prepare 10 of them per day. And there was no need to take the detention. Where are the flyers with their 40 liters of diluted :)
              2. 0
                April 5 2024 19: 20
                Well, how they drained it. All this was subject to disposal. Yeah......I have no idea what was disposed of, but definitely not what was dumped. :)
              3. 0
                April 5 2024 19: 26
                And the An12 had some kind of anti-icing crap. No one risked drinking. :)
                1. 0
                  April 6 2024 07: 18
                  Quote: Grim Reaper
                  No one risked drinking. :)

                  I drank. Smells strongly of burnt rubber...
              4. 0
                April 5 2024 19: 29
                This is not a good idea; industrial alcohol often contains small amounts of methanol, aldehydes, organic acids and other impurities, which significantly increases its toxicity
                1. 0
                  April 5 2024 19: 58
                  This is not a good idea, industrial alcohol often contains small amounts of methanol,
                  They didn’t know this then - either the alcohol was different, or the people were different. My father lived for 82 years, and this after being seriously wounded in World War II.
                2. 0
                  April 5 2024 20: 16
                  industrial alcohol often contains small amounts of methanol, aldehydes, organic
                  + + + + + +
                  After life took me from aviation to cops and then to the factory. (Not a bad career) Well, there you go.
                  Around the years 8-10 (I don’t know before) a techie (divorced, of course) gave odds to any store-bought vodka. Around the year 10, they began to bring it in plastic instead of tin tanks. The taste is disgusting. No one got sick, but they stopped drinking it. It's because of the taste. Believe me, even the most recent drunks refused to drink it. But! Nobody got poisoned
                  But Massandra, you bubble it up, dilute it a little and it goes like clockwork. You don't even need to eat much. So, sniff it with your sleeve. :)
        2. 0
          April 5 2024 16: 32
          what about navigators, pilots and midshipmen? wink
          + + + +
          There are definitely no navigators. I don’t know about Pilots and Midshipmen. I'm not a sailor.
      3. +1
        April 5 2024 12: 19
        Quote: Grim Reaper
        Alas, Kulman and Whatman are not in our design bureaus.

        You’ll also remember about Reisfeder and Reisshina.... smile
        1. +1
          April 5 2024 16: 12
          Quote: Alexey RA
          You’ll also remember about Reisfeder and Reisshina....

          I remembered about the boatswain...
  4. +6
    April 5 2024 04: 50
    Installed above the wing - of course, this is useful for increasing lift
    This arrangement of engines is used for landing on unpaved and snow-covered airfields to avoid solid parts getting into the working part of the engine.
    1. -7
      April 5 2024 04: 59
      No, it is to increase lift by increasing air flow over the upper surface of the wing.
      1. +7
        April 5 2024 05: 05
        this is to increase lift by increasing air flow over the upper surface of the wing
        The upper engine position reduces the effective part of the wing, above which low pressure must be created for lift.

        Also:

        the plane will be able to use unpaved unequipped runways, and also be operated in Arctic latitudes
        1. 0
          April 5 2024 05: 12
          You can learn about this from the An-72:

          “a powerful stream of gases flowing at high speed from the jet engine nozzle will pass over the wing, creating additional lift.”

          Theoretical calculations were confirmed by experimental blowing of aircraft models in wind tunnels: the increase in lift was quite significant and reached 20% in some modes. The wing blowing became especially effective when the mechanization was released: the “sticking” of the jet ensured continuous flow and a significant increase in quality during takeoff and landing.
          1. +5
            April 5 2024 05: 22
            “a powerful stream of gases flowing from the jet engine nozzle at high speed will pass over the wing, creating additional lift”
            Like this so-called Can a “mighty stream” of gases pass over the wing if it, the wing, is covered by the engine nacelle? This part of the wing is completely excluded from the work of creating lift. How do you imagine the work of slats? There, crazy turbulence will begin between the engine nacelle and the air flow. How do you think ailerons and spoilers will work? I understand that the developers have decided all this, but the upper location of the engine is in no way decisive in creating lift
            1. -2
              April 5 2024 05: 31
              Coanda effect

              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D1%84%D1%84%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0
              1. +5
                April 5 2024 05: 41
                Coanda effect
                To do this, the engines must be placed far ahead of the wing (this is the case). But you must admit that in any case, some part of the wing surface goes out of work. In addition, this “Coanda effect” does not at all explain the operation of the slats and, in general, the entire wing trim. I am sure that the overhead engine position on the IL-212 is used exclusively for use on unequipped sites
                1. 0
                  April 5 2024 06: 04
                  The shoulder-mounted engine position above the wing was too close to the fuselage, resulting in more drag than predicted for the transport and affecting its cruising performance. The scalding hot jets, requiring heat-resistant alloys for the upper surfaces of the wing roots and flaps, made maintenance difficult.

                  And all this just to “prevent foreign objects from being sucked into the engine”?
                  1. +3
                    April 5 2024 08: 41
                    And all this just to “prevent foreign objects from being sucked into the engine”?
                    I would like to draw your attention once again to the fact that in addition to concrete runways, it is also planned to land on unpaved airfields, which is tantamount to a death sentence for such an engine. Yes, and read the comments below too
                2. +2
                  April 5 2024 06: 08
                  > this “Coanda effect” does not at all explain the operation of the slats and, in general, the entire wing trim.

                  What do slats have to do with it and what does it mean to “explain their work”?
                  And the “wing harness” is generally rubbish... :)))
                  1. +2
                    April 5 2024 07: 43
                    Quote: Avis
                    What does slats have to do with it?

                    From an agricultural point of view, it has nothing to do with it...
                    1. -4
                      April 5 2024 10: 44
                      > and

                      You don’t know Russian, but you are interfering in the discussion of aviation. Very stupid and arrogant.
            2. +3
              April 5 2024 06: 53
              Like this so-called Can a “mighty stream” of gases pass over the wing if it, the wing, is covered by the engine nacelle?

              Due to the displacement of the engine forward and the special design of the D-shaped nozzle, which directs the exhaust gases onto the surface of the wing and onto the flaps (flaps with external airflow). In fact, the engine is installed not above the wing, but in front of the wing. The photo shows American prototype Boeing YC-14 aircraft. The design of the nozzle is clearly visible, directing gases to blow over the wing and flaps.
              This design really makes it possible to increase the lifting force of the wing and reduce the length of the take-off and run, so in the seventies in the USSR (An-72) and the USA (Boeing YC-14, QSRA) they tried to use it to create a military transport aircraft UVP (short take-off and landings). In the USSR, the An-72 was produced in a series of approximately 200 vehicles. The Americans came to the conclusion that, due to the severe complexity and weight of the design, the game was not worth the candle and the program was closed.
              The second photo shows a NASA QSRA aircraft landing on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk.
              1. +2
                April 5 2024 07: 36
                Quote: Dekabrist
                By moving the engine forward

                This cancels it all out. Apart from reducing the effective wing area, which decides everything...

                Quote: Dekabrist
                due to the strong complexity and weight of the structure the game is not worth the candle
          2. +2
            April 5 2024 12: 25
            Quote from: wanna
            Theoretical calculations were confirmed by experimental blowing of aircraft models in wind tunnels: the increase in lift was quite significant and reached 20% in some modes. The wing blowing became especially effective when the mechanization was released: the “sticking” of the jet ensured continuous flow and a significant increase in quality during takeoff and landing.

            Yeah... in theory and on the stands everything was great.
            But in fact, on a living machine it turned out that:
            During the tests, some problems were also discovered with the practical use of the “highlight” of the project - the Coanda effect. The actual conditions encountered during the flight differed from the model and test conditions. The adhesion of the jet to the wing was uneven and depended on flight conditions and external conditions (especially tailwind).

            And then the Customers demanded to increase the load capacity to 10 tons. And that’s all - the influence of the effect on the lift force was reduced to a few percent.
            It was necessary to reconcile the conflicting demands of the Air Force and the Moscow Civil Aviation. Solving the problem in the simplest way - increasing the range by increasing the fuel supply - would increase the load on the wing and reduce the thrust-to-weight ratio, minimizing the possibility of STOL. The designers chose a compromise path - maintaining the basic design, increasing the wing area and its extension.
            (...)
            At the same time, the extension of the wing, the introduction of joint assemblies and the lengthening of the fuselage entailed an increase in the mass of the aircraft airframe, and the shape of the wing, which was far from aerodynamically perfect, with kinks along the leading and trailing edges, led to the appearance of parasitic vortices and an increase in drag. The maximum speed decreased to 705 km/h, and the cruising speed was 530-550 km/h (that is, it became the same as that of the An-32 turboprop).

            The mention of the Coanda effect now caused only a grin - its role in creating the lifting force was only 5-7%, and the wing itself was provided by the increased area itself.
    2. IVZ
      +1
      April 5 2024 05: 11
      On an American STOL transport aircraft developed in 1976 by the S-14, this arrangement was used primarily to increase the lift of the wing. Unlike the An-72 1977 the car did not go into production. https://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/c14.html
    3. 0
      April 5 2024 06: 50
      > to prevent solid parts from entering the working part of the engine

      Seriously? :)))
      1. +1
        April 5 2024 08: 24
        Seriously? :)))
        Yes seriously. I have an assumption that you were sweeping at the airfield if you don’t know such basic things as high humidity and direct wind, which are a real punishment for airplanes with turbojet engines wink
        1. +1
          April 5 2024 11: 03
          Yes seriously. I have an assumption that you were sweeping at the airfield if you don’t know such basic things as high humidity and direct wind, which are a real punishment for airplanes with turbojet engines wink

          So maybe go back to the screws? The S-130 flies and suits everyone, it seems.
          1. +2
            April 5 2024 14: 52
            So maybe go back to the screws?
            It can also be applied to screws. What's bad about them is that the speed is a little less. But the point here is, rather, something else, a suitable engine, which is not yet available
  5. IVZ
    +6
    April 5 2024 04: 59
    And the fact that the PD-8 needs a new wing. More powerful (in our case three times) and heavier engines will put more load on the wing, and something will have to be done about it. ...

    Excuse me, but the designers don’t know all this? Statements made by effective design managers at the stage of its development are, as a rule, not worth such serious discussion.
  6. Eug
    +1
    April 5 2024 05: 24
    At first glance, it will be very difficult to do anything with the Il-112 without changing the proportions of the fuselage. It is necessary to either reduce the cross-section of the fuselage or lengthen it, which will automatically transfer the aircraft to a different load-carrying category. And when replacing a TV-117 with a PD-8, replacing the wing is not enough - you need to change the entire KSS, and this is a new aircraft. In fact, ANTK Antonov designed the An-7500 with a payload capacity of 178-17 tons for engines with a thrust of about 18, although they also worked with the MAR and flew with ballast.
    1. 0
      April 5 2024 06: 54
      > when replacing a TV-117 with a PD-8, replacing the wing is not enough - you need to change the entire KSS
      Hmm... C-123 "Provider" will disagree with you. Because he flew with propellers, and with a turbojet engine, and with “propellers + turbojet engines”. By the way, the same “Antonov” had a paper project for the An-50. Be curious. :)
  7. +11
    April 5 2024 05: 29
    Yeah ...
    If galoshes were made in the Union, they are now trying to learn how to make bast shoes...
  8. +10
    April 5 2024 05: 31
    So should we expect a miracle? Of course no. There are no miracles. Neither in personal life, nor in production. I know this, having worked for 41 years at an aerospace enterprise.
    History tells us that when a society faces another crisis, its (society's) viability is determined by how it overcomes this crisis.
    Moving on to the topic, we see that having “let go” of the reins of the aircraft industry under the leadership of Gaidar-Burbulis, we buried everything. Or almost everything.
    And so, when life turned to us with a completely different side, we were baked. Yes, it hurts, yes, it’s uncomfortable, yes, it’s stressful. The mistakes of youth are understood and, as it were, realized.
    So what should we hope for? But only for yourself.
    We have made tremendous progress on the PD-8 engine topic. No matter who mocks you or how. As far as one can judge, the condition of PD-8 has “caught up” with PD-14. And this despite the fact that the GXNUMX was practically taken up literally the day before yesterday.
    This is just like a miracle. The broadest cooperation is used in the production of DSE. Literally the whole country makes the engine.
    Yes, it needs to be adjusted according to the parameters, according to the cycle of testing and work - there are five heaps.
    But, I think, when the airframe of the new “old” aircraft is ready, the engine will be ready.
    1. +3
      April 5 2024 05: 54
      Having once “let go” of the reins of the aircraft industry under the leadership of Gaidar-Burbulis, we buried everything.
      Remember what the song says:
      It’s worth lowering the pressure at least a little,
      Fate will read the death sentence wink
  9. +4
    April 5 2024 05: 44
    Unless a miracle happens. But once a miracle already happened when the Il-112V was pushed into the air. But then everything fell into place, and the Il-112V killed three test pilots.
    And here the question is: do we really need such miracles?

    There is such a tradition. However, this is most often a ridiculous window dressing. They also like to let a column of tanks or trucks cross the bridge, or let a priest with a censer, but as they say: “the strength of materials is not *** (you will deceive).”
    Previously, this condition was mandatory, and not only the engineer had to stand under the bridge, but he had to bring his entire family there.

    But such a tradition can be revived... And not only in the construction of bridges...
    1. +3
      April 5 2024 05: 58
      Quote: ROSS 42
      But such a tradition can be revived... And not only in the construction of bridges...

      They won't allow it!! Because it’s fraught!! The director and the person responsible for the release will not be imprisoned, and the entire design bureau will not fit.
      1. +2
        April 5 2024 06: 02
        Quote: Egoza
        but all the design bureaus won’t fit.

        They will want to live and will not be so upset...
        1. +3
          April 5 2024 06: 44
          Still, Comrade I.V. Stalin managed to create conditions that were comfortable and maximally limiting “external influence.” And what masterpieces they created for the army back then! wink
          1. +4
            April 5 2024 07: 31
            Quote: Egoza
            Still, comrade. I.V. Stalin managed to create comfortable and maximally limiting “external influence” conditions

            He was an excellent organizer and administrator! You need to have talent for this, like everything else...
  10. +6
    April 5 2024 05: 51
    The article is good.
    The author has selected interesting material.

    Unless a miracle happens.
    Well, or one of three events will happen: “maybe, maybe you’ll take a bite.”
  11. +8
    April 5 2024 05: 56
    Until there is personal responsibility, nothing will happen. No planes, no engines on time, as they say - either the donkey dies or the padishah. Who was responsible for the death of the pilots and the plane? So I understand no one.
    1. +3
      April 5 2024 06: 01
      1. The investigation into the Il-112V crash has been completed. The commission's findings will not be publicly published.
      2. Development of the aircraft has been suspended pending a decision by the Russian Ministry of Defense.
      3. Il-112V will receive a PD-8 engine, the wing will be redesigned, and the aircraft will be named Il-212.
      4. Thus, the LVTS project with a turboprop engine has been postponed indefinitely.

      https://aviation21.ru/il-112v-poslednie-novosti-i-status-programmy/
  12. -14
    April 5 2024 06: 04
    buffoon in his wretched repertoire. He doesn’t know a damn thing, but he tries to reason.
  13. +11
    April 5 2024 06: 08
    The idea of ​​government responsibility is recognized by the Russian authorities as extremism.
    Therefore, they can whistle and promise anything, there will be no responsibility
  14. +2
    April 5 2024 07: 28
    Quote from: wanna
    Theoretical calculations were confirmed by experimental blowing of aircraft models in wind tunnels

    Without going into technical details, I’ll answer you with a simple question, the level of the grandmothers sitting on a bench near the entrance - why, such a layout that creates, in your words, and I quote, “a powerful flow of gases flowing out of the jet engine nozzle at high speed, creating additional lift” has not received such widespread use? Or rather, I didn’t get it at all... Well, there are also questions about reducing the wing area, about the operation of the wing mechanization, about the location of fuel tanks below the engine and much more...
  15. +3
    April 5 2024 07: 33
    At 4 am the article was posted, by 7 am there were already 40 comments, where is the site even moderated, in the Far East? Or so many suffer from insomnia
  16. +5
    April 5 2024 08: 11
    How funny it is sometimes to read old articles. In the links below, there are sentences that amused me: 1) “Ten years ago, in May 2008, the Sukhoi Superjet 100 made its debut flight - the first civil aircraft developed in Russia, and not in the USSR.” - Uhhh feel proud?
    2) “As part of import substitution, some foreign-made parts were replaced with Russian ones, but this is not an end in itself - business interests come first. A domestic product will be used for the SSJ100 if it is of better quality and cheaper than its foreign counterpart.” - we understood Business interests come first, what kind of import substitution there is.
    3) “It’s interesting that when assembling the fuselage, welding is not carried out, only riveting - this method is cheaper, and the product is more durable.”, when rivets have become more durable than welding.
    4) “When creating the Superjet 100, the principles of the Japanese philosophy of Kaizen are implemented, which focuses on the continuous improvement of production processes......Kaizen proposals, and especially those that were introduced into production, are rewarded. But not with a bonus . Among the bonuses are a allocated space in the plant's parking lot (the most sought-after award), delivery from home to the workshop by minibus with the administration for 3 months, a trip to the air show in Zhukovsky, control of an SSJ100 aircraft on a flight simulator." - great incentives, that’s why people are fleeing the airline industry.

    https://rg.ru/2018/05/30/reg-dfo/10-let-v-polete-kto-i-kak-sobiraet-segodnia-samolety-sukhoi-superjet-100.html
    1. +1
      April 5 2024 12: 28
      Quote: T-100
      Kaizen suggestions, and especially those that are implemented into production, are rewarded. But not a bonus. Among the bonuses are a allocated space in the plant's parking lot (the most sought-after award), delivery from home to the workshop by minibus with the administration for 3 months, a trip to the air show in Zhukovsky, control of an SSJ100 aircraft on a flight simulator.

      Hmm... some of their managers are ineffective. There is also a certificate of honor and gratitude from management - they are even cheaper. smile
  17. +2
    April 5 2024 09: 01
    The question is simple. Will this aircraft be made by the same design bureau with the same chief designer, who obviously got to the position based on the words of “respected people”? Judging by the activity of the economic bloc in this direction, everything is so. The result will be... destroyed tens of billions of government rubles and death. Deaths of pilots, passengers and technicians. Yearning...
    1. +5
      April 5 2024 09: 18
      Today, like half a century ago, creating an ordinary twin-engine aircraft is not some kind of miracle or achievement; senior students of the Moscow Aviation Institute could cope, by the way, under Stalin, similar aircraft were created in a few months, although designers used to work in sharashkas, but now it turns out that The longer development takes place, the more money can be spent.
      1. +2
        April 5 2024 11: 15
        People died because the wing caught fire. The wing caught fire because GK, considering himself a genius, designed it without taking into account overheating, and the fire extinguishing system also designed this... this... In general, the question is far from a matter of months.
        1. 0
          April 6 2024 06: 48
          In general, according to civil standards, the engine should burn for some time (I don’t remember) without destroying the structure. Roughly speaking, all kerosene should burn out after shutting it off.
          This is one of the reasons why modern passenger aircraft have engines under the wing on pylons.
          Military designers do not feel sorry for them.
          1. 0
            April 6 2024 13: 05
            Are you seriously?! Who is the author of these fantastic norms? How does he sleep at night? Or did he go crazy a long time ago, and in the straitjacket of the god of fire he is pretending to be in a madhouse? This is complete madness!
            Self-acting fire extinguishers, which began to be used en masse in our country in the early 90s, knock out any flame with a micro-explosion, even creating problems for napalm; there is nothing to say about kerosene, while simultaneously covering the combustion zone with fire extinguishing powders, stopping the disgrace. They literally drive the powder into the burning substance.
            We have been using this on tanks and armored personnel carriers for a long time, but what about airplanes? We'll burn, aren't the groundlings a decree for us? Comrade Stalin!! Well, I have no patience! When Comrade Beria comes, every second person must be put against the wall, not counting every first one!!
            1. 0
              April 6 2024 15: 31
              Leave the emotions to yourself. And think without emotions.
              Now watch videos on YouTube of fire engines. For some reason the fires did not break out. And the wing did not float, the mechanization did not begin to collapse. Nobody says there shouldn't be a fire extinguishing system. But nowhere did I write that the engine should burn as much as desired. But the system should not replace the reliability of the design.
              These are certification requirements.
              1. +1
                April 6 2024 15: 50
                You didn’t write “as much as you like” anywhere, you wrote
                Roughly speaking, all kerosene should burn out after shutting it off.
                I am a professional, and now I work, among other things, with self-activating fire extinguishers. The truth is on earth - I design and install such systems, among others.
                The accident mentioned in the article has exactly the same characteristics - a fire broke out, a wing floated, the mechanization was destroyed, excellent pilots, apparently good people, died.
                And yes, there are emotions. For such a regulation, they should absolutely be shot. Speaking accurately and responsibly. So, you know, without emotions. Take the team that developed it and go to the wall. And the designers who refer to it are formally not guilty, but in fact vile scum...
                1. +1
                  April 6 2024 18: 17
                  The incident with this plane is scandalous. He would never have been certified as a civilian. No bribes.
                  And the most scandalous thing is that, as always, the authorities wanted to show it at the exhibition. For some reason, only test pilots decided to continue flying? Did you think it would work out? Our test pilots have absolute power.
      2. 0
        April 6 2024 06: 50
        Any fool can draw. But it will never pass tests according to all the requirements that currently exist.
  18. +3
    April 5 2024 09: 02
    We built and built and finally... We can’t even repeat the Soviet “galoshes”. recourse
  19. +1
    April 5 2024 09: 19
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    Seriously? :)))
    Yes seriously. I have an assumption that you were sweeping at the airfield if you don’t know such basic things as high humidity and direct wind, which are a real punishment for airplanes with turbojet engines wink

    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    Seriously? :)))
    Yes seriously. I have an assumption that you were sweeping at the airfield if you don’t know such basic things as high humidity and direct wind, which are a real punishment for airplanes with turbojet engines wink


    Another stupidity. What is "straight wind", yxperd? And how does increased (relative to what?) humidity interfere with turbojet engines? The traction drops a little, but no more.
    The main thing is that you did not understand the essence of the photo I posted. It clearly shows that a high-mounted turbojet engine sucks debris from the ground just as much as a low-mounted one, and the point of raising the engines on the An-72 was only in the Command effect.
    1. 0
      April 5 2024 11: 02
      . What is "straight wind", yxperd? And how does increased (relative to what?) humidity interfere with turbojet engines?
      To begin with, I advise you to start with “Murzilka” or “Funny Pictures”
    2. -4
      April 5 2024 11: 19
      Quote: Avis
      The point of raising the engines on the An-72 was only to effect the Command

      Well, in general, the main point of the high location of the turbojet engine is that you don’t have to worry about the propeller catching the ground on a bad site or when heeling from the wind. The question of who sucks how is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
  20. fiv
    +1
    April 5 2024 09: 45
    The author was not in any design bureau. The entire article is an abbreviated retelling of what was already expressed earlier by more competent comrades. There are no conclusions or solutions to problems. And where do they come from, exactly? The author is a generalist, he writes on any topic, but the same thing. Comrade's articles were much more meaningful. Klimov, I consider them the standard for articles of this kind in VO.
    1. +3
      April 5 2024 11: 20
      Quote: fiv
      . And where do they come from, exactly? The author is a generalist, writes on any topic, but the same thing

      This is the site's policy. Only those who have the site on staff can write on it for money. But a real expert quickly gets tired of working for free...
      1. fiv
        +2
        April 5 2024 11: 34
        "Gavrila served as a baker, Gavrila baked a loaf..."
        1. +4
          April 5 2024 11: 36
          Absolutely right) The site is a specialized type, but its employees are journalists, that is, in the understanding of the administration, people who do not understand anything equally. They take one text, change the term in it, and print it over and over again...
  21. +1
    April 5 2024 10: 08
    Doesn't look nice. As one great designer said, you have to be beautiful to fly well.
  22. 0
    April 5 2024 10: 24
    Can't you just put 4 TV3-117 on the Il112?
    1. 0
      April 5 2024 11: 48
      Quote: Zaurbek
      But you can't

      It is possible, but why?
  23. +7
    April 5 2024 10: 27
    Manturov is the gravedigger of our aviation and has long since earned himself a life sentence. But he is the one who is not abandoned.
    1. 0
      April 5 2024 12: 00
      Quote: Galleon
      But he is the same one

      That same “one of our own” seems to have pushed his (UZGA) TVRS instead of the Il-112, and the Ilyushin residents were given a consoling “candy”
  24. 0
    April 5 2024 10: 41
    We also have a new high-speed highway from Moscow to St. Petersburg and a bridge across the stormy Tatar Strait to Sakhalin. We also need to plan a tunnel from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk....
    1. +2
      April 5 2024 21: 35
      . We also need to plan a tunnel from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk....

      We need a tunnel to Kaliningrad...
    2. -1
      April 6 2024 06: 44
      All the necessary things. The late USSR saved on such things. Saved more.
  25. +1
    April 5 2024 10: 51
    As for the PD-8, the author is clearly worried in vain. The engine is already being tested, this year it is still undergoing modifications, and in 2025, the end of the series in 2026. But the 212th will not be born by this time. This is where I agree 100%.
    1. For such engines you need to have a load of 8-11 tons, which means a different fuselage. In terms of length for sure, but also in terms of cross-section - it is possible. Otherwise, the meaning tends to zero.
    2. For such engines, a new wing is needed, both in terms of strength and sweep, but it still won’t fly 750-900 km per hour, you can’t make a wing with a large sweep - we’ll lose the flight characteristics. But: 650 - 730 will be - and a new wing is needed. Anyway.
    3. New chassis.
    4. Recalculation and alteration of the power elements of the fuselage - frames, beams, etc.
    5. Tail and horizon. plumage - but of course!
    6. Fuel system
    7. Fire fighting
    8. Etc.
    You need a ton of money and 4-5 years of hard work. At the end of the day, without guarantees, no one knows what else will happen.
  26. +2
    April 5 2024 11: 17
    This is the real result of perestroika and the new capitalist system. The managers rebuilt the economy, so much so that they forgot how to build airplanes.
  27. 2al
    +1
    April 5 2024 11: 49
    Who else remembers the Il-276 (nee Il-214)? In the discussion on the Il-212V there has always been a question, why is it needed at all? The possibility of taking off from the ground for the Il-112V was a murky topic, even if it fit into the flight characteristics in terms of weight. If the dimensions of the Il-212 (An-72Neo) cabin are left the same, then only military buggies and promising combat robots will fit into it, but most likely the Ministry of Defense will require other dimensions so that at least the Tiger can fit, however, the FSB, the Ministry of Emergency Situations and other customs authorities will not insist, how the An-72 suits them as a patrolman. The An-72Neo is guaranteed to take off from the ground. And the same D-36 engines in bulk can only be capitalized on.
    1. 0
      April 5 2024 17: 40
      No, well, you’re wrong about who to carry! Our court unit near Khabarovsk in the 80s carried mainly generals of all kinds with their accompanying people on their An-26s. And for flights to the Arctic Circle there was an Il-14 “Spirit Voz” with a leather passenger cabin. We have always been able to “rationally” spend engine hours.
  28. +1
    April 5 2024 12: 09
    The situation in our aviation industry is like a bad circus.
    And one of the directors, Comrade Poghosyan, has still not received any punishment and continues to destroy the industry.
    Now he is the rector of Moscow Aviation Institute, in case anyone has forgotten.
  29. +2
    April 5 2024 12: 22
    Ilyushin's planes have always been distinguished by their grace, but this one looks like an ugly duckling.
  30. 0
    April 5 2024 13: 16
    The An-26 is the main machine in the north, and the An-72 is an outstanding aircraft specially created to work in isolation from civilization
    The main carrier today is reliable but very expensive Mi-8s of various modifications.
    For the north, you need a TVS-2MS, but without unnecessary bells and whistles of avionics, and especially without the idiotic parachute landing, which increases the cost of a flight hour and the Il-112 turboprop.
    The situation with the Il 212 and 112m is similar to the Be-200 and the Canadian CL-415 - the Canadian wins in all respects because it is simpler and cheaper, and speed is far from the main indicator.
  31. 0
    April 5 2024 13: 46
    Does he understand something about aerodynamics, design, engine building, technology, etc... or did he wave his party baton and - here it is? And the military-industrial complex somehow stands aside
  32. -1
    April 5 2024 14: 00
    From the position of the state, everything is conceptually correct. There are 2 promising engines PD-14, PD-8. There are 2 passenger planes for them: MS-21 and Superjet New. Now we need 2 cargo aircraft with these engines and these are IL-276 and IL-212. All other car projects are consigned to the furnace of history.... Unification and sound calculation.
    1. 0
      April 6 2024 13: 08
      Eh, quaric, not everything is true. The IL-276 project was closed at less than 50% readiness in 2021 on the initiative of the UAC. People were partially thrown out onto the street (!) and partially transferred to other projects. IL-112V was closed at 80% readiness. At the same time, the engine still needs to be tuned, because this is a whole family, Il-114, Ladoga, helicopter version. And the weight could also be improved, the military asked for 6 tons, at first it turned out to be 5, which was bad, but then they brought it up to 5,5. This is 92% of the task. And it would be useful in civilian life - transporting engines for repairs, it takes everything except the hypothetical PD-35. But the plane is no longer there. And the rest is IL-212. Nobody knows what kind of miracle this is and what the thinned-out Ilyushin residents will get out of it, towards the end of the decade.
  33. 0
    April 5 2024 14: 21
    Our aircraft industry was killed in the 90s, and after that it happened with increasing sanctions pressure, when they wanted to revive something. That’s why things aren’t going as planned, and for armchair experts and all-rounders, it’s just a free space to lash out for any reason, because there’s no point in doing more on your own.
  34. +1
    April 5 2024 14: 27
    Oh, the author and his works about aviation...
    Bloopers and opuses;
    1. It is clear that the turbofan PD-8 will also have more power. At takeoff, according to the data, PD-8 gives 8 kgf, and TV000-7 - only 117,
    -When did a turboprop engine have thrust? The power of a turboprop engine is measured in l/s.
    2. How much does our PD-8 weigh? With engine nacelle – 2300 kg. How much does TV7-117ST weigh? 500 kg.
    - does it make sense to compare the PD-8 with the air intake, hoods, and attachments with the dry weight of the TV-117st engine?
    3.And the fact that the PD-8 needs a new wing. More powerful (in our case three times) and heavier engines will put more load on the wing, and something will have to be done about it. More precisely, count and make a new wing. Or more precisely, a new wing and that part of the center section to which it will be attached. The loads that fall on the wing will be transferred to the junction of the wing and fuselage.
    -if Skomorokhov had studied the design of airplanes, he would have known that the mass of the engine is being neglected, since the loads from the lift on the wing are an order of magnitude greater than from the suspended engine. The engine unloads the wing in flight.
    4. Although the frankly poor fire extinguishing system definitely needs to be re-developed.
    -Il 112 had a standard fire system design.
    1. +1
      April 5 2024 18: 05
      Skomorokhov was already distinguished by his “competence”...
      I remember that in his article on VO dated September 4.9.2021, 112 “IL-186699V: the causes of the disaster have been established” (https://topwar.ru/112-il-XNUMXv-ustanovleny-prichiny-katastrofy.html) he seriously stated, What
      was fed into the engine nacelle foam composition to put out the fire...
      Both cylinders with foam were spent

      Perhaps this is where his new statements about the poor fire extinguishing system using... foam come from.
      It’s not for nothing that they say that a surname is not given out of thin air, and Roman fully confirms this.
      1. -1
        April 6 2024 07: 32
        Fire-fighting system cylinders contain freon.
        Skomorokhov, again wrote nonsense :-) About the foam composition.
  35. +5
    April 5 2024 14: 41
    “Denis Manturov, last year said that the Il-212 is a deeply modernized Il-112V,” Mr. D. Manturov has already spoken and promised “15 years of strict regime”! fool hi negative
    To paraphrase a famous politician, I’m tempted to say: “You’d have to be a genius to ruin the aviation industry that existed in the USSR!” negative
  36. -1
    April 5 2024 15: 27
    Load capacity depends on the engines, and turbofan engines are more suitable for transport vehicles.
    The placement on top of the wings, while not pretty, is less of a hassle. And there is less air resistance from the bottom of the wings, and when taking off from a primer, there is less risk of stones and other dirt getting in, and the tail will hold warm air.

    All that remains is to work on the reliability of the engines and improve the airframe after deficiencies were identified during flight tests.

    Turboprop engines require a completely different aircraft body, my favorite is the An-28, the size of a helicopter, the take-off is very fast, it will take off in any forest clearing. The tale is simple, it can perform the functions of an American tiltrotor - landing an assault force, but is cheaper to produce, and for civilians it can be produced at least in hundreds - a groove for the north and Kamchatka, in wartime civilians can be used for military purposes to replenish those destroyed. Ideal for light loads; at present, screw engines remain only for transporting light loads.

    But the military will most likely choose a long aircraft body in order to cram a truck and a bunch of people who need a long airfield and a lot of fuel to take off. They won’t want to use the economy option, it’s not reputable.
  37. -1
    April 5 2024 17: 22
    Why is this squalor of the 76s not enough for the military?
  38. 0
    April 5 2024 18: 58
    Quote: Div Divich
    ...
    The placement on top of the wings, while not pretty, is less of a hassle. And there is less air resistance at the bottom of the wings, and when taking off from a dirt road there is less risk of getting stones and other dirt, and the tail will hold the warm air.
    ...

    Everything else is also just super!))) But Zhik-9 will still be cooler, it should have been discussed at the selector)))
    1. 0
      April 6 2024 08: 23
      I realized my mistakes, I’ll go read about aerodynamics, it’s more interesting than watching Galtsev.
  39. 0
    April 5 2024 23: 36
    I don’t understand the author, is the engine dragging the plane or the wing dragging the engine?
  40. +4
    April 5 2024 23: 41
    The already proven scheme of the Russian military-industrial complex is to scrap the previous development and start a new one for another 10 years of funding. In 10 years, the development will become obsolete before it even reaches the series, and again start a new wunderwaffle with new funding for another 10 years. That's how we live. From exhibition to exhibition. From development statements to development statements.
    1. -1
      April 6 2024 06: 40
      Calm down. That's how everyone works. And they spend money. How else? Thirty years of ruining the aviation industry by all means, and then - time! And the best planes for three pennies and for a year? In some places a GENERATION has passed. By transferring experience to UNITS. And somewhere it completely disappeared.
      Now we have to pay. Finally it dawned on me that I wouldn’t get anything from my “partners”. And then! This is what the partners explained. And we ourselves are a little stupid.
  41. 0
    April 6 2024 01: 46
    Well, depending on how you look at it, they will now save money on the project, and then buy it from the Chinese, at the very least sticking on a beautiful nameplate, as is now customary with Vovkin’s effective managers.
  42. 0
    April 6 2024 06: 36
    That's how it is. But.... The wing will have to be redone. Fortunately, the design for the alteration is successful. But strength is such a thing... - the more load you put on the wing on this plane, the lighter the wing structure can be made. Something like this laughing laughing laughing
    Sopromat, ëly-paly. Loads are from bottom to top.
  43. 0
    April 6 2024 09: 01
    They say ugly planes don't fly
    Il-112 looks like a pregnant locust or hippopotamus, with some kind of perches instead of wings.
  44. 0
    April 6 2024 17: 04
    depending on what type of transport vehicle is needed, if without a ramp, then on the basis of the Il-114 it can be made and it was called the Il-114T. A light transport vehicle can also be made on the basis of the Ladoga TVRS-44; it seems like they’re even designing a ramp for it
    1. 0
      April 7 2024 12: 30
      A cargo aircraft requires engines with increased payload capacity and a stronger and larger body.
      I’m wondering something else about the Il 112 and 212, why they didn’t make a ramp in the front, and a higher passage is obtained and the tail can be used more efficiently (stowage for small cargo, or space for passengers, or an additional fuel tank - to increase the flight range).
  45. 0
    April 6 2024 17: 07
    and what did our author finish? Something aviation? Can I see his monograms on this occasion? Or is he a generalist, as they say, Emelya, is your week?
  46. 0
    April 6 2024 18: 37
    The experience of the Soviet school of aircraft designers is most likely partially lost. And new people in the design bureau will definitely try some new and unusual solutions in their developments until they hit their stride and gain experience. This is a natural process. As long as it doesn’t take away the lives of the crews, this process of gaining experience....
  47. +1
    April 6 2024 19: 44
    Personally, I know that the guys from the UAC and the Ministry of Industry and Trade decided to play Khoja Nasreddin, the emir and the donkey, they say, in twenty years one of the three of them will definitely die, either the donkey, or the emir, or Khoja Nasreddin, and then go figure out who Of them, he knew theology better. And now the fellow gentlemen and gentlemen have decided that they will promise three boxes, but by 2030 a lot can change. And go figure out who promised what to whom.
  48. 0
    April 6 2024 21: 24
    Why is everyone so fussing? Well, if the designers got to work, God help them! Why whip and scream? - Will this change anything? Now the entire industry is being rebuilt and I will say quite well. Maybe something good will come of it, but it won’t be any worse. Old cars wear out, that’s understandable, but you still can’t sit on your heels. And anyone can yell that this is all bullshit - you go and create it, then you will yell. And this is how it works out for us: while some are rushing about, looking for a way out of the dead end, others are sitting on the sofa throwing mud at them. Well, if you are so smart, then go and tell me, or better yet, do it. Good luck to you designers! When hard times came, in Mother Rus' they didn’t do anything like that. Good luck to you designers!
  49. +1
    April 6 2024 23: 02
    Meanwhile, the US authorities ordered the Boeing Corporation to reduce the production of the problematic brand of aircraft to 27 units.

    Per month!!!

    One type of aircraft!

    In the USSR, about which some people, who should not be named, said that then they only made galoshes, produced 542 aircraft per year (data for 1982).

    Today's effective managers have frankly screwed up the partially Russian SuperJet.
    Attempts to release something Russian result in terrible accidents, and subsequent breakthroughs, with a series of as many as 16 aircraft per year, and not every one.

    They have no choice but to criticize everything Soviet and extol their “successes,” the effect of which is no greater than that of a mouse farting in its hole.
  50. exo
    0
    April 7 2024 10: 54
    A beautiful word - no alternative. We do not have a replacement for the retiring ANAs. They will try.
    It is clear that this will be a new aircraft. And hardly in two years. We still don’t know what surprises the PD-8 will bring. There are doubts about the Ilyushin Design Bureau, in its current state.
    By the way, I wonder how much better the new aircraft will be than the same AN-72 with PD-8 instead of D-36. And the idea of ​​​​producing the AN-72 with the PD-8 may turn out to be quite good.
  51. +1
    April 7 2024 12: 15
    It took a lot of time and money to fine-tune the IL-112 plus TV7-117. As a result, the topic is failed, and the bankrupt team starts a new topic. Moreover, soon the old planes will begin to crumble and Russia will be left without aviation. There is complete irresponsibility at all levels. If order is not restored, the country will perish.
    We need Stalinism.
    Urgently ...
  52. +1
    April 7 2024 15: 33
    If the engines are installed at the top, like in the Cheburashka, then at a minimum the entire wing needs to be redesigned.
    And given that Il112 had serious problems with excess weight, then so did almost everything else. It is much more logical to design a new aircraft from scratch, and, in my opinion, to create a machine to replace the An12, because they are much more in demand in the world. You can't carry much on dwarf transporters. But the C130 has been bought for almost 70 years all over the world
  53. 0
    April 7 2024 15: 44
    The last time KB Il created a cargo aircraft that went into production was 50 years ago. The youngest engineers who worked on this project are now, at best, retired.
    Since then, Il has not created anything at all for more than 30 years. Where will the competencies come from? Yesterday's conditional MAI graduate cannot create a new aircraft, even if he studied at 6+
  54. 0
    April 7 2024 15: 45
    Quote: km-21
    It took a lot of time and money to fine-tune the IL-112 plus TV7-117. As a result, the topic is failed, and the bankrupt team starts a new topic. Moreover, soon the old planes will begin to crumble and Russia will be left without aviation. There is complete irresponsibility at all levels. If order is not restored, the country will perish.
    We need Stalinism.
    Urgently ...

    There will be no
  55. 0
    April 7 2024 19: 52
    Serious problems in the aircraft industry appeared in Russia thanks to the United States; they pushed Ukraine to break production ties with Russia.
  56. 0
    April 7 2024 20: 58
    A freak plane will never fly, successful cars are beautiful. what we have, what our enemies have.
  57. 0
    April 8 2024 14: 39
    I recently looked at Chrysler. The main idea is that we don’t invent something new until we unlock the full potential of the old one. Something like this...
  58. 0
    April 8 2024 14: 58
    So the PD-8 is an option

    An option that does not exist and, judging by the trend, will not exist in the near future...
    The "extreme" certification shift was most recently to the end of 2024...
    And in general, if you read about him all the time - he is muddy...
    Problems are hidden, but something leaks out to the masses...
    And the main thing is that competence in the construction of aircraft engines has been lost...
    However, for everything else too...
  59. +1
    April 9 2024 13: 30
    But I emphasize: this is a prototype. Prototype


    Roman, are you aware that a prototype and a prototype are completely different things? Why then pile them up? To confuse the reader?
  60. 0
    April 9 2024 14: 52
    As they say, born to crawl. so here is one zero and the second zero..zero + zero equal? this is that one - who knows nothing and is not responsible for anything, say that this is new, that the second is the same, that this is a modernized killer plane "old. Despite the fact that there is no engine)_ the plane is created for the engine, and not the other way around)