Spike NLOS - the long arm of Apache helicopters

47
Spike NLOS - the long arm of Apache helicopters

In 2024, the US Army completed the integration of Spike NLOS anti-tank guided missiles on AH-64E Apache Guardian helicopters. Helicopters have acquired the ability to hit targets at ranges of up to 32 km. Similar missiles are already integrated on other versions of Apache helicopters, as well as on Black Hawks.

The US Army has been working for several years to adapt Israeli Spike NLOS anti-tank guided missiles on AH-64E Apache Guardian helicopters. The need to implement this type of system was noticed at the end of the last decade. As Defense News recalls, the Americans decided that helicopters needed weapons with a greater range than Hellfire missiles and the new American JAGM project, which are used, among other things, to combat enemy air defense systems. One of the reasons for implementing Spike NLOS on Apache Guardian helicopters is to provide capabilities against enemy air defense systems that might otherwise pose a threat to the helicopters. If the standard ATGMs used by Apache can, according to available information, hit targets at a distance of approximately 8-10 km (in the new version of JAGM-MR this can be increased to several kilometers), then Spike NLOS can hit targets at a distance of up to 32 km.



The Americans made the decision to arm Apache helicopters with Spike NLOS missiles in 2020 after test firing. These missiles are being acquired in parallel with the implementation of the Long Range Precision Munition (LRPM) program, aimed at preparing a new generation of long-range missiles. weapons for helicopters (including Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft reconnaissance and combat vehicles).

The target LRPM system is designed - according to official Pentagon documents (budget proposal for fiscal year 2024) - to play a key role on the multi-domain battlefield and provide the ability to operate despite the presence of strong air defense and electronic warfare capabilities. In this program, Spike NLOS is one of the participants, since the project is still at the competitive stage.

However, the current Spike NLOS procurement for Apache helicopters has been designated LRPM DR (Directed Requirement) because it involves the direct procurement of a weapon system with parameters consistent with the assumptions of the LRPM program. The Spike NLOS system will allow Americans to have the capability much sooner than the LRPM target is reached, as it may not be implemented into standard service until around 2030 or later. And this was considered too long a period.

Since 2020, various types of tests have been carried out related to the use of Spike NLOS missiles on Apache helicopters. For example, in 2021, the US Army announced that it had conducted tests involving firing at a sea target at a distance of up to 32 km. More recently, in December 2023, Lockheed Martin reported that eight Spike NLOS missiles were successfully launched over a five-day test program. AirWorthiness Release (AWR) - "This is an important step towards official approval for the operational use of Spike ATGMs on American helicopters».

The integration process of the first 18 AH-64E v.6 helicopters is expected to be completed by September 2024, and before that, US Army personnel will be trained. Thanks to this, the American Apache in the latest version will gain a “long arm”.

The combination of the capabilities of the Apache Guardian helicopter and the Spike NLOS missile will give the US Air Force completely new capabilities. Apache Guardian vehicles are equipped with a Link 16 data link, which allows the transfer of target information to and from various sources. They also have a new version of the Longbow radar with an increased range of up to 16 km and improved electro-optical target detection capabilities.

What capabilities do Spike NLOS rockets offer? In the basic version, these are long-range radio-controlled anti-tank guided missiles capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 32 km. They have dual-band optical-electronic thermal (infrared range) and television (visible spectrum) guidance. They can fight stationary and moving targets, two-way navigation between the missile and the target is also possible, the guidance system does not depend on the GPS signal. Spike NLOS have already been successfully used in combat.

However, modifications have recently been made to the Spike NLOS rockets, resulting in the development of the 6th generation Spike NLOS. These missiles can increase the range to approximately 50 km when launched from an aerial platform (helicopter). In addition, it is possible to shoot at a target with given coordinates (“fire on a grid”) and then search for a target with given parameters using the seeker. The new seeker also allows you to distinguish targets according to previously established patterns. In addition, one operator can fire a salvo of four missiles. The range of the new missiles is many times greater than the range of other types of Apache Guardian weapons.

All this means that Spike NLOS missiles can become a very significant enhancement to the armament of Apache Guardian helicopters. Depending on the situation, they can fight against various targets: from air defense systems, which the Americans focus on, armored vehicles (also in the “top attack” mode, that is, attacks on the upper hemisphere of the target), to fortified command posts.

Not only Apache Guardian


Spike NLOS ATGMs can be used on attack and multi-purpose helicopters, as well as on many other platforms. Before being used on American Apache Guardians, they were integrated and used in combat on older Apache helicopters used in Israel. Greece has also decided to use them on older Apaches in 2021, considering them a valuable addition to the combat system, especially in coastal environments.

Both Israel and in the future Greece will also use Spike NLOS on land-based launchers and on surface ships. Another user of Spike NLOS is the Republic of Korea, which has four-container ground launchers on Plasan SandCat 4x4 vehicles. South Korean AW159 Wildcat helicopters are also armed with Spike NLOS missiles. Spike NLOS is also used in the Colombian Air Force's Black Hawk helicopters under the designation AH-60L Arpia IV.

In 2021, Spike NLOS firing from an integrated launcher on the JLTV multi-purpose vehicle was carried out in Estonia, and a year later the first launchers of these missiles were received by American special forces. Thus, Spike NLOS can be used on various platforms and in various configurations, allowing it to hit targets, including armored ones, at significant distances.

Technology transfer


Spike NLOS missiles are also offered by the Israeli company Rafael to Poland along with the transfer of production technology. Their production, as in the case of Spike-LR, could take place at the Mesko plant in Skarzysko-Kamienna, which increases the security of supply and ensures investment in the Polish economy. Moreover, in the event of an order for Spike NLOS, the Polish company will be more included in the supply chain of the Spike family of missiles, which will lead to additional export revenues.

One of the platforms that could carry Spike missiles in the case of Poland is, of course, the planned Apache Guardian helicopters. In this case, the configuration of Polish helicopters will largely correspond to that introduced into the US Army, which facilitates the integration process.

It is also possible to integrate Spike NLOS on Black Hawk helicopters in the battlefield support version or on ships. These missiles are also offered in a ground-based version for use in the fighter program tanks "Ottokar-Brzoza". In this case, the launcher will be integrated with the Polish 4x4 carrier, as was previously the case with the JLTV and SandCat vehicles, and the guidance system will be integrated with the Polish Topaz fire control system, part of the Ottokar - Brzoza program.

The Spike NLOS system is constantly evolving and will soon become an important element of the US Army's aviation weapons. It should enhance its anti-tank defense capabilities and, more broadly, its ability to engage targets invisible to the operator (under the "Indirect Visual" assumption), as evidenced by the introduction of these missiles in subsequent years on both air, land and sea platforms .

Representatives of Rafael Advanced Defense Systems presented a proposal for Spike anti-tank guided missiles for Poland. This weapon is offered for both many types of helicopters (including the AH-64E Apache) and ground vehicles.

The first part of the presentation concerned combat helicopters and combat support, primarily the AH-64 Apache. Rafael offers the Polish Air Force two types of combat weapons: a lighter version Spike ER2 (Extended Range) with a flight range of 16 km and a “heavy” version Spike NLOS (Non Line of Sight), which can hit targets at a range of up to 50 km. Both versions can be integrated not only with the AH-64E purchased by Poland, but also with other types of combat support helicopters. This applies to both the AW149 and S-70i Black Hawk, as well as older models such as the W-3 Sokół, as well as new platforms being considered for acquisition.

The manufacturer declares the possibility of producing these weapons in Poland along with technology transfer. A striking example of such actions is the successful cooperation with the Polish defense industry, primarily Mesko SA, on the Spike LR ATGM. About half of the work on the latter is carried out in Poland, and optimally this share could be 60%. This also applies to the mentioned ER2 and NLOS variants.

Rafael representatives emphasize the advantages of this model of cooperation with foreign clients. It is based on the transfer of licenses and production facilities to many export customers. In this context, the advantage of the company is that it remains state property. As such, it continues to coordinate closely with the Israeli government, which could facilitate negotiations on licensing and technology transfer.

Spike on aerial platforms


The Spike ER2 already has twice the range of the standard weapon in the West - the AGM-114 Hellfire anti-tank guided missiles, as well as the recently fielded AGM-179A JAGM. The characteristics of the Spike ER2 allow its missile to engage targets beyond the range of man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS) such as the Polish Piorun, and even some very short range systems (VSHORAD) also used to combat helicopters, such as the Soviet Osa "

Spike NLOS, with a range of 50 km, is a weapon that gives attack helicopters a completely new capability. Its existence became known in 2006, and a few months later it was allowed for export. The Israeli ATGM allows you to fire with virtually no risk to the carrier and hit targets deep in the rear of enemy forces and forces gathered on the line of contact between troops. There is the possibility of salvo firing, delivering a massive coordinated strike - one carrier (for example, the above-mentioned AH-64) can fire a salvo of four missiles.

Spike ER2 and Spike NLOS have a targeting system that works like a video camera, simultaneously recording images in the visible range (via a CCD sensor) and infrared (via an IIR sensor). Thanks to this, there is no need to illuminate the target with a laser spot (like the Hellfire missile in the AGM-114R version) or independently accompany it with a carrier helicopter. For this reason, Spike NLOS shoots “at coordinates”. En route to its destination, the rocket moves on autopilot using an inertial navigation system. During this time, it can play a role similar to a reconnaissance drone with a thermal imaging camera, constantly providing the operator with images of objects it detects along its path. Of course, the bullet recording can be saved for later analysis.

After launch, the rocket can be left to its own devices. Using built-in machine learning algorithms and images loaded into internal memory, Spike NLOS is able to independently select and destroy a target. This increases crew safety by making the task independent of rocket control until the very end. In this respect, the Spike resembles the SPICE glide bomb from the same manufacturer. Representatives of Rafael are quick to explain that all the weapons systems they create provide the ability for operator intervention at any moment in the missile’s flight (including activating the self-destructor or turning off the warhead). This attribute is extremely important not only because of the potential military advantages (since the missile can be aimed with surgical precision) but also for ethical reasons. The flight trajectory to the target depends on the range (the longer the flight, the higher the flight altitude on the trajectory) and the selected flight profile. At the final stage of the attack, the operator can adjust the exact aiming point. Spike NLOS missile firing is not limited by weather conditions or cloud base. The helicopter crew can delegate control of the missile to a ground operator. Unlike the Spike LR ATGM, which is guided via a fiber optic cable, communication between the NLOS variant and the carrier is carried out via a radio data link. Interestingly, the large dimensions of the Spike NLOS do not mean that the combat helicopter can carry a small number of these missiles weighing more than 70 kg. The launch weight of the rocket depends on the type of warhead used: cumulative, concrete-piercing or high-explosive, with the latter being the heaviest. The AH-64's standard configuration is eight of these missiles on two weapons pylons, which is the same number as the Hellfire ATGMs typically found on Apaches. The American attack helicopter will be able to carry a maximum of 12 Spike NLOS ATGMs.

The United States is also purchasing a missile in this version in order to “extend the Apache’s armament” and expand the range of its capabilities on the battlefield. Thus, it has been certified and properly tested by the US Army. It is worth adding here that the basic version of the new AGM-179 JAGM missile, which should replace the AGM-114 Hellfire, has a range of 8 kilometers, and the new version JAGM-MR, which passed flight tests a year and a half ago, reaches the target at a distance of up to 16 km . Work to increase the range of the “conventional” Hellfire missile continues.

In addition to the AH-64 in variants A, D and E, Spike NLOS is integrated into the weapon systems of other types of helicopters. These include: Airbus Tiger and H145M (with HForce package), Leonardo AW129 Mangusta and AW159 Wildcat, Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk and others. Rafael representatives also said that there are two models for integrating Spike NLOS with the AH-64E. The basic option involves modifying the helicopter and avionics without the participation of the manufacturer, but in cooperation and with the consent of the US Department of Defense. An additional ATGM controller is then added to the cockpit, and the image from the guidance head is displayed on the existing multi-function displays. The second option, more expensive and time-consuming, involves integration from scratch at the Boeing plant in Mesa, Arizona. Here the cockpit is identical to earlier AH-64E variants, and the Spike is controlled by the same instruments as other guided missiles.

By the way, interesting statistics were given for the Spike ATGM family. At the moment, Rafael has received orders for 50 missiles in the SR, MR, LR, ER, NLOS and AeroSpike variants, and more than 000 thousand ATGMs have already been used in training and combat conditions. There are already 10 Spike production lines operating around the world, including one in Poland, in Miesko, Skarzysko. The missiles are used by 10 countries around the world, most of which are in Europe. The company invests 42% of its total annual turnover in research and development. Since October 10, approximately 2023% of IDF personnel have received call-up notices in connection with the ongoing Operation Iron Swords in the Gaza Strip. Some of them have already returned to work for the company. About 20% of employees are women, and this proportion is constantly growing.

Spike on the ground


In addition to military means for aviation ground forces, Rafael also offers Spike missiles for ground launchers. Representatives of the Israeli company openly present this version of the Spike ATGM as an alternative to the MBDA-made Brimstone missile specified in the Ottokar-Brzoza program. Since the announcement of PGZ's cooperation with the European missile giant in the field of anti-tank missiles, there has been no information about the launch of Brimstone production in Poland.

This proposal is interesting for the Poles because Spike LR missiles are already being produced in Poland, including such important components as the new generation rocket engine. By the way, the Skarzysko plant is the only place outside of Israel where a rocket engine is produced (including for the needs of other export consumers). Adapting an existing production line and adapting the supply chain to produce a new variant of the Spike ATGM appears to be a less risky undertaking than taking on the production, integration and deployment of an entirely new type of combat agent. Spike NLOS, launched from land, has a range of 32 km. In addition, it has all the capabilities mentioned in the context of attack helicopters and combat support.

Initially, the design of the Israeli tank destroyer involved the installation of the Spike NLOS launcher on the American JLTV vehicle; the modular architecture allows the container to be placed on any carrier that has the appropriate dimensions and payload capacity. The launchers are placed on pallets and, depending on the version, secured to the carrier with four or six screws. The Varan chassis was supposed to accommodate one launcher for 4 missiles and a spare magazine with 8 additional ATGMs. A crew of two can load the launcher in just a few minutes. It is equally important that the tank destroyer can fire both the Spike NLOS (with all types of warheads) and the ER2 variant without modifications to the launcher.

Rafael presents examples of using Spike NLOS in a divisional fire module with 12 mobile launchers. The range of an ATGM is a serious advantage when planning attack and defense, especially if Spike NLOS operators take advantage of network-centricity and modern reconnaissance tools. The concept of the Raphael company is conceptually reminiscent of the proposals of the Ottokar-Brzoza program. Moreover, representatives of the Israeli company declare their full readiness to integrate Spike NLOS with the Topaz ZZKO and other key elements of the artillery “system of systems” of the Polish Armed Forces.

There is no word on what stage negotiations are at regarding the supply and production of Brimstone missiles in Poland, so it appears that the Spike ER2 and NLOS remain in play. The choice between two ultra-modern ATGM models is certainly not easy for the Polish Armed Forces.
47 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -4
    April 1 2024 06: 53
    If the new Apvcha radar is designed for 16 km, then why does it need missiles for 32 km? The helicopter will not see the target further than 16 km. Shoot at target designation from Link16?
    1. +2
      April 1 2024 09: 09
      It is written that the missile can find targets on its own, as well as be controlled and transmit video information throughout the entire flight.
      1. +1
        April 1 2024 10: 16
        Well, that's what I wanted to clarify. And the cons from whom? And for what?
    2. +3
      April 1 2024 10: 26
      Quote: Yuras_Belarus
      If the new Apvcha radar is designed for 16 km, then why does it need missiles for 32 km? The helicopter will not see the target further than 16 km.

      Why does a helicopter need to see the target? Time she goes, she presses, she gives help are over. The crew is issued external Control center - the target is such and such, the coordinates at the time of detection are such and such, it is moving there. Next - launch, launch of the inertial guided missile into a given area, additional search and acquisition of the target through a dual-band OE seeker (either by the operator or automatically, by comparing the picture with target images in memory).
      In general, the standard scheme for over-the-horizon operation: external control center, INS on the mid-flight phase of the missile's flight, optical seeker or telecontrol on the final leg. Somewhat reminiscent of the work of the DD air defense system.

      The evolution of attack aircraft into missile carriers has also reached attack helicopters. This way you can expect a “heavy battlefield missile carrier” - “Chinook”, stuffed with launchers for “Spikes”. smile
    3. +1
      April 1 2024 11: 28
      The Apaches have fresh connections with UAVs (some even control them)... and data exchange in NATO is well set up. So, the choice is: AWACS, RC Aircraft, UAV.
    4. +2
      April 1 2024 15: 25
      “Apache” is planned simply as a carrier of this missile, and the carrier is fast and sufficiently secretive (if memory serves, then the E2 version that they want to adopt from the 28th year has a cruising speed of about 350 km/h), and the target designation will be external... like I see this in myself - a fighter on the front line launches a mini-UAV and then calls and aims a missile... and the carrier in the form of an Apache can be in the most unexpected place for the enemy (say, hiding in the trees 20 km from the front)... in the states, the idea of ​​​​a similar concept appeared back in the late 90s, which was expressed in version D. Now it is being actively developed and brought to modern realities. The Americans are generally great in terms of constantly improving their equipment... okay, airplanes and other armored vehicles, they are all + developing them and trying to modernize them, look at the development of small arms, how much they put through the troops using the example of the M4 SOPMOD program, optics were replaced every 3-4 years and other body kits, conclusions were always drawn from actual operation..
  2. +2
    April 1 2024 10: 03
    This weapon poses a mortal threat to any ground equipment. The helicopter can simply launch the missile from a safe position while an operator on the ground selects the target. If this is installed on ground vehicles in addition, then the combat value of conventional armored vehicles increases enormously.
    1. 0
      April 1 2024 13: 30
      If this is installed on ground vehicles in addition, then the combat value of conventional armored vehicles increases enormously.

      So, on the contrary, they moved the missile from a ground installation to a helicopter, it has been there for a long time
  3. -4
    April 1 2024 11: 30
    In the Russian Federation there is an analogue - LMUR izd 305. They are preparing to modernize it, as I understand it, for various carriers, including ground-based ones.
    1. +4
      April 1 2024 13: 40
      Zaur. Good afternoon. Unfortunately, it is not. An analogue of the X-39 (LMUR) is the ancient, 50-year-old Maverick and partly the Anglo-French Martel with a television-thermal imaging seeker. With a manual search for targets, the operator takes an optically contrasting target into the “capture” and after that the missile itself is aimed at the target. In order to implement the “automatic target search” mode, you need to switch from analog optical seekers to digital ones, with its own processor and memory. After the collapse of the Soviet planned economy 35-37 years ago, we, of course, fell behind, to put it mildly. The market is when a “roasted rooster pecks” and “private traders” on their knees from ...... and sticks create something in a couple of days.
      1. -2
        April 1 2024 15: 18
        An analogue of the X-39 (LMUR) is the ancient, 50-year-old “Maverick” and partly the Anglo-French “Martel”

        You found strange analogues.
        1. +2
          April 1 2024 15: 39
          Timur. Good afternoon. What's strange? By the way, Martel is still a good rocket. Range - 60 km. A two-channel system, a signal goes in one direction - an image of a target, or the surface of the earth / water surface under a rocket flying at an altitude of 100-300 meters. during the entire flight it is controlled by an inertial system, the operator sees the entire path of the missile, and when the target appears on the image from the video head, it switches to the missile radio control mode, “acquires the target” and then the missile is automatically aimed at the target. Our other analogue is the X-59, but with a longer flight range. What's strange? It's just yesterday.
          1. -6
            April 1 2024 15: 46
            Good afternoon!
            The strange thing is that the LMUR analogues contain missiles of a completely different class.
            And your interlocutor, when he recorded LMUR in the Spike NLOS analogues, was more accurate than you with “Maverick” or “Martel”.
            1. +2
              April 1 2024 15: 49
              What is the difference between LMUR and Maverick? What are the fundamental differences? I don’t see any.
              1. -5
                April 1 2024 15: 55
                Launch platform, modularity, speed, weight. By the way, in this list the mass should be put first.
                1. +2
                  April 1 2024 16: 04
                  The launch range is identical, the platform is the same, I don’t see the difference between the A-10 and Su-25 attack aircraft or the Mi-28 helicopter. Yes, the mass of the warhead is slightly different: 25 kg and 67 kg, both are high-explosive fragmentation, the target (tank) will still tear it to shreds. Even the guidance algorithms are identical. I don't see the difference. Isn't Maverick modular?
                  1. -5
                    April 1 2024 16: 13
                    Launch range is identical

                    No
                    I don’t see the difference between the A-10 and Su-25 attack aircraft or the Mi-28 helicopter.

                    And she is))
                    Yes, the mass of the warhead is slightly different: 25 kg and 67 kg

                    In one case, you compare the mass of the explosive (67 kg) and the mass of the warhead (25 kg). The mass of the penetrating HE warhead for the AGM-65 is 136 kg
                    both high-explosive fragmentation

                    No. More precisely, only partly yes
                    Even the guidance algorithms are identical.

                    No
                    Isn't Maverick modular?

                    It's just modular.
                    1. +2
                      April 1 2024 16: 19
                      An original way to answer questions - yes or no. All the same, the Maverick has a total warhead mass of 67 kg (Tritonal explosive mass is 18 kg) for modifications A and B, and 136 kg for modification C, but this did not change the purpose of the rocket.
                      1. -3
                        April 1 2024 17: 08
                        Sorry if you write
                        Quote from sergeyketonov
                        both high-explosive fragmentation

                        then we are talking about WDU-24/B. Which weighs 136 kg. And which is penetrating high-explosive fragmentation.
                        57 (not 67) kg is the cumulative WDU-20/B.
                        If it's all the same to you
                        Quote from sergeyketonov
                        but this did not change the purpose of the rocket

                        then I wash my hands.
                      2. +2
                        April 1 2024 17: 19
                        Timur, well, we rummaged through Wikipedia for a very long time, I wrote it from memory. In the 1980s, the Americans tried to give what was essentially an anti-tank missile the function of a means of combating small surface targets of the RKA type. Who is stopping you from using LMUR against naval targets? They share one class with Maverick: air-to-surface missiles with a range of up to 15 km.
                      3. -5
                        April 1 2024 17: 28
                        Sergey, I won’t even comment on what was written. Otherwise I’ll find myself “rummaging through Wikipedia for a long time” again))
                      4. 0
                        April 2 2024 10: 38
                        I’ll fit into your argument.....Both Spike and 305 are used from a helicopter...Both are “far hand” and not the main AT weapon of a helicopter. The 305 may be heavier and more powerful than the spike, but Tele and heat vision are implemented, fashionable features such as target capture and automatic tracking are also implemented. What options are you missing in LMUR?
                      5. 0
                        April 2 2024 12: 47
                        Watch carefully those parts of television reports when Shoigu visits military-industrial complex enterprises. Sometimes interesting things happen there. A couple of weeks ago, from a report, Shoigu demanded that the LMUR be equipped with a seeker with an “automatic target search” mode. I’m trying to convey this in both the article and the posts. that LMUR does not have such a regime. Why am I comparing LMUR with Maverick, because they have the same first-generation seekers, where the operator participates in all operating modes. Through his eyes you need to find the target through the rocket's video camera. You need to “grab” it with your hands, and then the rocket flies on its own - this is 50-year-old technology. "Spike" is completely autonomous, it searches for the target itself, it identifies it itself, picks up the AC and hits the target itself. This is the fourth time I’ve tried to convey exactly this information.
                      6. 0
                        April 2 2024 13: 06
                        "Spike" is completely autonomous, it searches for the target itself, it identifies it itself, picks up the AC and hits the target itself. This is the fourth time I’ve tried to convey exactly this information.

                        This is the fourth time you are trying to mislead people. Spike does NOT look for the target himself, does NOT identify it himself, does NOT take it for escort.
                        You can invite your friends to put downvotes lol
                      7. 0
                        April 2 2024 13: 57
                        Dear. I may believe in the ability to auto-search for a “tank” type target, but the typical target for such missiles is Buildings and SAM (ZAK) .... for a single missile - selecting a target manually is not a problem... But firing in one gulp SPIKES in a square with target recognition and simultaneous defeat - I can’t believe it.
                      8. 0
                        April 2 2024 14: 22
                        And it’s hard to believe in firing a volley of SPIKES into a square with target recognition and simultaneous defeat.

                        It’s not even a matter of technical implementation; everything here is feasible. Israel has long prohibited the development and use of weapons that are autonomous and therefore may not be selective. This is also why the Israelis completely ignore the development of mine weapons.
                      9. 0
                        April 2 2024 14: 25
                        The main task of such missiles is to destroy targets beyond line of sight where there is a threat of the use of air defense missile systems (ZRPK) .... if the LMUUR complex lags behind in something, it is:
                        1. dimensions (this is our electronics and gunpowder)
                        2. Data exchange from external sources to the media...
                        Все.
                        On the scale of attack helicopters such as APACH or Ka52 - its size is not important
                      10. 0
                        April 2 2024 14: 39
                        3. optics (well, here’s electronics too)
                        4. range
                        5. container launch
                        On the scale of attack helicopters such as APACH or Ka52 - its size is not important

                        They are important, but the power is excessive. We have some kind of vicious idea that we need to do more, because then it will be more powerful. All over the world it has long been understood that power must be proportionate to the typical purposes and purpose. And its compactness allows you to use more different carriers or carry more ammunition. We either hammer nails with microscopes or peel potatoes with an axe.
                      11. 0
                        April 2 2024 14: 58
                        You are not right. In our case, the Ka52 (Mi28) can take 4 pieces of LMUR... this is quite enough for their purposes.... for comparison, the Whirlwind ATGM, it can take 12 pieces... and in all videos 6-8 pieces
                      12. 0
                        April 2 2024 15: 35
                        You are not right.

                        Sorry, what's wrong? The fact is that
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        compactness allows you to use more different carriers or carry more ammunition...

                        I’m even interested in the logical chain that can refute this statement))
                      13. 0
                        April 2 2024 15: 57
                        I mean that the LMUR ammunition is enough for all tasks. 4 pieces per helicopter.
                        And what difference does it make whether it’s a little bigger or a little smaller?!
                      14. 0
                        April 2 2024 16: 08
                        I mean that the LMUR ammunition is enough for all tasks. 4 pieces per helicopter.
                        And what difference does it make whether it’s a little bigger or a little smaller?!

                        That is, there cannot be more than 4 targets per flight? OK. As always, we have our own special path.
                      15. 0
                        April 2 2024 16: 17
                        And it is necessary? do you have a different opinion? Strikers (I wrote above) can carry from 16-12 ATGMs, and in almost all videos of use - ATGMs up to 6 at most. In interviews, pilots say that they would carry more if a Whirlwind with a HE warhead were available.... Most of the tasks solved by progressive Helpfires and Euro-missiles are solved by the Whirlwind due to range and speed and automatic target tracking.... The war has shown , that not only the generation of the ATGM is important, but also the ability to produce it (the missile itself) in large quantities. The truth is somewhere in the center. In fact, the fundamental task of hitting a target beyond the operator’s visibility has been solved.
                        The losses of the Ka52 when used directly as an anti-tank weapon when repelling an offensive in the summer were 1-2 pieces.
                      16. 0
                        April 2 2024 16: 36
                        But you must?

                        It seemed like there was a simple question - can there be more than 4 targets per flight. Are you sure that “is it necessary?” the answer to it?
                        The losses of the Ka52 when used directly as an anti-tank weapon when repelling an offensive in the summer were 1-2 pieces.

                        Well, if it weren’t Vortexes (LOS), but any missile with the implementation of NLOS would not be in service, even these 1-2 would not exist. Only.
                        The war showed that not only the generation of ATGMs is important, but also the ability to produce it (the missile itself) in large quantities.

                        It is much more expensive to mass produce media and media operators.
                        In some places this was understood. But we have our own way.
                      17. 0
                        April 3 2024 10: 03
                        These 1-2 were taken absolutely not because of the ATGM, but because of the use of BUK-type air defense systems and most likely the reconnaissance and data exchange system (which the Russian Federation has in its infancy) and, once again, out of 100 targets of an attack helicopter, not all targets need NVOS or LMUR....80-90% of targets require a gross ATGM with a gross ATGM....For the remaining targets on the stream there is a LMUR...and there are many of them. And after modernization, they will be on ground (surface) and other carriers. Yes, she's bigger...
                      18. 0
                        April 3 2024 10: 12
                        These 1-2 were taken absolutely not because of the ATGM, but because of the use of BUK-type air defense systems and, most likely, a reconnaissance and data exchange system (which the Russian Federation has in its infancy)

                        If it weren’t Vortexes (LOS) that were in service, but any missile with NLOS implementation, even these 1-2 wouldn’t exist. But there is no difference between air defense systems and MANPADS.
                      19. 0
                        April 3 2024 10: 26
                        According to reports, a BUK air defense missile system was shot down on the way or back.... Once again, I agree, Industry can produce so many UVOCs? Not only the Russian Federation, but Israel itself? Or the EU?
                      20. 0
                        April 3 2024 10: 56
                        Can industry produce that many NVOCs? Not only the Russian Federation, but Israel itself? Or the EU?

                        How much is this? It’s hard to talk about something if we mean different numbers.
                      21. 0
                        April 3 2024 10: 20
                        out of 100 targets of an attack helicopter, not all targets need NVOS or LMUR....80-90% of targets require a gross ATGM with a gross ATGM

                        NLOS is not a specific product, it is a concept. Non-line-of-sight - out of bounds STRAIGHT visibility. It can be implemented (and has been implemented) if approached wisely, and on “gross” (I assume by this you mean relatively cheap) ATGMs.
  4. 0
    April 1 2024 12: 25
    If everything stated works, then this is a very serious weapon. One question is not stated: the price of these missiles? The second question in the article is written about 10 launches. Where and from what carriers were the launches? And of course the result?
    1. +2
      April 1 2024 13: 31
      They were used in Karabakh, and the result was colorful videos. They are not cheap, as Israel does
    2. +1
      April 3 2024 13: 28
      1 Spike NLOS missile for the US Air Force $210,000 in 2021. On average, the cost, depending on the configuration and volume of supplies, is from 145 to 250.
    3. 0
      April 3 2024 13: 31
      https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3287664.html
      There is some detail here (not including the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh)
  5. 0
    April 1 2024 20: 35
    You need to pump up Thor somehow. Only at a distance of 60 km the radio command method will no longer work, and other options will be much more expensive.
    1. 0
      April 2 2024 13: 16
      And “Thor” has had such a regime for a long time. The naval version has a firing mode for small-sized sea surface targets at a range of up to 12 km. For more than 30 years.
      1. 0
        April 2 2024 20: 42
        Quote from sergeyketonov
        And “Thor” has had such a regime for a long time.
        Thor cannot reach 50-60 km to intercept NLOS carriers. I wrote about this, and not about shooting at hired targets.
  6. 0
    April 2 2024 10: 39
    As the Ka52 pilot said in the stream - Give the helicopter pilots a Whirlwind with a HE warhead and 99% of their needs will be covered.