Once again about pistols, shotguns and cartridges by Johann Dreyse

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Once again about pistols, shotguns and cartridges by Johann Dreyse
A 14,73 mm Dreyse and Kollenbusch pistol made in the 1830s, with DC markings and a Prussian eagle on the breech. Smooth .58 caliber barrel. Solid lacquered walnut handle, flared at the rear. The firm Dreyse & Collenbusch existed from 1824 to 1834. Photo by Allen Dobress


“...but the truth remains
and remains strong forever,
and lives and reigns
in the century of the century."

2 Ezra 38:XNUMX

History weapons. On the pages of VO we once already talked about Johann Dreyse’s rifle and the ammunition used in it. The material sparked a lively discussion in the comments. But words that are not supported by concrete data are, in general, useless. Well, numbers and diagrams are not always at hand. Sometimes you have to turn to a variety of sources for them and scrupulously verify data from various reference books. But since these weapons are indeed of great interest, it makes sense to delve deeper into this topic, which is what we will do here and now today.




Dreyse and Kollenbusch pistol, left view. 30s of the XIX century. Photo by Allen Dobress

So, let's start with the fact that Dreyse worked for Pauli (Poli - V.E. Markevich) and, having gained knowledge and ideas from him, returned to his home in Germany (Prussia), where his rifle with a needle ignition system was adopted in 1836 for service.

The Dreyse rifle could fire 5–9 rounds per minute, and the range of its bullet at the limit reached 800 meters. Moreover, this rifle was repeatedly modernized, improved and helped Prussia win a number of wars in Europe.


Dreyse and Kollenbusch pistol, Semmerde plant. To load the weapon, the lever located on the right side surface of the receiver had to be turned up and back. The cocking lever, which was eccentrically fixed to the base of the loading lever, moved back and, compressing the mainspring, cocked the needle striker. The charging lever had to be returned to the forward position. The paper cartridge was inserted into the barrel from the muzzle using a cleaning rod. When fired, the needle pierced the cartridge, reached the pin and pierced the capsule, which exploded and ignited the powder charge. The inconvenience of the system was the need to pull the needle back in time every time. Otherwise, it was possible to miscalculate the effort and push the cartridge further than it should, which could result in an accidental shot. Photo by Allen Dobress


The same handle in the position before the shot. Photo by Allen Dobress

All this has been written about many times already, but, as always happens in the case of incomplete knowledge, such brevity in the presentation of information often does not allow us to show the dynamics of the creative process of a particular inventor. That is, it turns out that Dreyse worked for Pauli, then he was somewhere unknown, and then he immediately came up with his own rifle. And sometimes this, or almost this, happens in life.

But in the case of Dreyse, the process of developing his rifle was much longer, and therefore more interesting.

This is where we will start...

It turns out that Dreyse in 1827–1828. worked on muzzle-loading shotguns and pistols that fired cartridges with a pallet, but not rifled ones, but smooth-bore ones. At the same time, he used different cartridges of his own design, including at first those with round bullets.


Cartridges of the Dreise design for needle pistols and shotguns with bullets of various shapes. Rice. A. Shepsa

In 1835, he designed the original breech-loading needle pistol. In it he used a rotating chamber, which actuated a lever on the right. It became much more convenient to handle him.

First of all, it was necessary to pull the needle along with its casing by the lever, and then return the casing to its previous position, leaving the needle cocked. This released the rotating bolt lever, which had to be turned so that the hole in the upper part of the barrel opened. The cartridge was inserted into this hole all the way, with the bullet forward, after which the lever returned to its previous position, and it was possible to pull the trigger and shoot.


Here it is, this pistol, in the hand of popular weapons expert Ian McCollum. Photos forgotten weapons


The same gun. Loading unit on the barrel. A cartridge can be inserted into the bolt hole. Photos forgotten weapons


The needle is armed. Photos forgotten weapons

The cartridge used in this rifle consisted of a paper casing, a bullet, a sabot, a primer and a charge of black powder.

The bullet, 15,4 mm in diameter, is shaped like an acorn, with the wider end forming a point, and the primer is attached to a folder tray (spigel), into which the bullet is inserted with its narrow part. Together with the pallet, it is placed in a “paper case” (we usually call it a sleeve), with a glued cardboard circle - the bottom. All this is separated from the bullet as it exits the barrel.

Inside the cartridge case was a powder charge consisting of 4,8 g (74 grains) of black powder. The upper end of the sleeve is folded and tied with thread. When the trigger is pulled, the tip of the needle pierces the back of the cartridge, passes through the powder and strikes the primer mounted on the base of the pan. Thus, the combustion front in the black powder charge passes from front to back.

This front-to-back combustion pattern minimizes the effect seen in rear-fire cartridges, where some of the powder at the front of the charge is wasted as it is forced out of the barrel and burned in air as a muzzle flash. This also ensures that the entire charge is burned at the highest possible pressure, theoretically minimizing unburned residue.

Therefore, a smaller charge can be used to achieve the same velocity compared to a rear-fire load of the same caliber and weight. This also increases the safety of handling the cartridge, since accidental firing of the primer is almost impossible.

A blank cartridge was also developed for the needle gun. It was shorter and lighter than the live cartridge, since it did not contain a bullet, but was otherwise similar to it in design and powder charge.


Dreyse rifle (below) and ammunition for it. Drop-shaped bullets and bullets inserted into the spygel are clearly visible

An important design feature is the device of the pallet and bullet.

The bullet itself is smaller than the caliber of the barrel, but it is inserted into a deep slot in the folder tray, which, when fired, crashes into the rifling, compresses the back of the bullet and gives it rotation.

An interesting question: did the bullet itself touch the rifling of the barrel?

To do this, just look at the diameters of the bore, pan and bullet. The caliber of the Dreyse rifle barrel was 15,43 mm. The depth of the rifling fields is 0,78 mm. The diameter of the cartridge is 16,5 mm. The outer diameter of the folder tray is 15,2 mm, the inner diameter is 13,8 mm. But the maximum diameter of the bullet was 13,6 mm (13,5 mm - according to V. E. Markevich).


Geometric dimensions of the Dreyse cartridge

That is, the folder tray completely filled the rifling of the barrel when fired, so that the bullet simply could not, no matter how much he squeezed its tail part, ring out so much that its diameter was greater than its diameter!

In addition, being lighter, it was the first to begin moving along the bore after the shot, and the bullet, due to its greater mass and inertia, began to move after it, and there was no way it could jump out of the pan and press into the rifling.

Well, the cardboard itself also could not compress the bullet with such force that it would seriously change its geometry.

That is, as soon as the shot took place, this pan was pressed into the rifling of the barrel by the powder gases and, squeezing the bullet, forced it to take part in its rotation along the rifling.

Moreover, all the authors who wrote about the Dreyse rifle noted as its significant drawback that the bullet in the pan was often unevenly fixed and flew out of the barrel, having a disturbance in alignment. Therefore, the firing range from this rifle was short, somewhere around 500 m, and the accuracy was not very good.

Another disadvantage was that the unburnt remains of the cartridge case in the barrel interfered with the movement of the bullet, which again affected accuracy.

Meanwhile, nothing like this would have happened if the bullet had moved along the rifling in the barrel!


But in this photo you see a revolver from 1850, designed by Franz Dreyse, the son of the famous Johann, who received the title of nobility and the prefix “von” for his rifle. He also followed in his father’s footsteps and tried to produce a pin-screw revolver, but this weapon could not stand the competition with the new cartridge revolvers. Photo by Allen Dobress
29 comments
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  1. +3
    April 13 2024 04: 48
    nothing like this would have happened if the bullet had moved along the rifling in the barrel!

    He who does not make mistakes does not develop. The main thing is that “experience is the son of difficult mistakes” does not turn into walking on a rake.
    "Ibu ibudi - huidao moodi"
    -step by step we will achieve our goal (Mao Tse Tung)
  2. +6
    April 13 2024 04: 51
    Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    It is curious that a unitary cartridge with an all-metal sleeve did not immediately find its way to the hearts of the military. Inertia and tradition forced us to return to the paper cartridge time after time. Although all the components of a modern cartridge (bullet with core, gunpowder, capsule and metal and cartridge case) were known separately two centuries ago. However, the path of research was interesting, especially during the Franco-Prussian, Crimean and American Civil Wars. Up to the use of rubber
    Have a nice day everyone, Kote!
    1. +3
      April 13 2024 05: 46
      Up to the use of rubber
      Where can rubber be used in weapons?
      1. +7
        April 13 2024 06: 03
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Where can rubber be used in weapons?

        There were rubber cartridge cases.
        1. +3
          April 13 2024 06: 05
          There were rubber cartridge cases
          Miracles! This is the first time I've heard about this!
          1. +4
            April 13 2024 06: 06
            You see how useful it is to go to VO!
          2. +9
            April 13 2024 07: 30
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            There were rubber cartridge cases
            Miracles! This is the first time I've heard about this!

            There were “rubber” cartridges and a carbine “for them” by Gilbert Smith ... But there is another cartridge “trick” ... “leather” cartridges by J. Hayes (Skin cartridges)!
            1. "Rubber" cartridge of G. Smith. 2. "Leather" cartridge of J. Hayes
            1. +7
              April 13 2024 10: 43
              But there is one more cartridge "joke" ... "leather" cartridges by J. Hayes

              What about cartridges? At the end of the 16th century, the Swedes were armed with leather cannons.
              1. +5
                April 13 2024 12: 16
                Well, it’s fairer to call these “Swedish leather” guns “quasi-leather”! Because they had a metal "liner"!
                1. +3
                  April 13 2024 20: 20
                  Nikolaevich I
                  +2
                  Today, 12: 16
                  New
                  Well, it’s fairer to call these “Swedish leather” guns “quasi-leather”! Because they had a metal "liner"!

                  Well, in the PPSh, not only the butt is made of wood...
        2. +7
          April 13 2024 07: 35
          Quote: kalibr
          There were rubber cartridge cases.

          Not just cartridges! There were also rubber seals in rifle bolts! (Chaspeau, Dreyse...) wink There were also rubber seals in cartridges... ("reanimation" of the two-bullet system)!
      2. +6
        April 13 2024 09: 48
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Where can rubber be used in weapons?

        When creating the bolt group of his rifle, Chassepot very successfully solved the problem of obturation of powder gases, which was beyond the power of Draize. Ring-shaped rubber gaskets were installed on the front part of the bolt, which served as seals. They burned out when fired, so they were consumable items and were replaced by soldiers themselves.
        https://guns.club/lib/oruzhie/vintovka-shasspo-obraztsa-1866-goda/
        You can also remember the rubber washers in Bramit.
        1. +4
          April 13 2024 11: 41
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Chassepot very successfully solved the problem of obturation of powder gases, which was beyond the power of Draize. Ring-shaped rubber gaskets were installed on the front part of the bolt, which served as seals.

          The Dreyse rifles also implemented the idea of ​​rubber seals! But this was not done by Dreyse and at the end of the “life cycle” of the Dreyse rifle! There were few such rifles produced compared to the total number of Dreyse rifles!
    2. +5
      April 13 2024 08: 18
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      It is curious that a unitary cartridge with an all-metal sleeve did not immediately find its way to the hearts of the military.

      Well, which way to say it! The military has been looking closely at metal casings for a “long time”! They even tried to shoot from muzzle-loading (!) rifles with cartridges with a “flying away” metal sleeve! Yes
    3. +6
      April 13 2024 09: 49
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      It is curious that a unitary cartridge with an all-metal sleeve did not immediately find its way to the hearts of the military.

      Expensive! hi
  3. +5
    April 13 2024 08: 34
    The cartridge was inserted into this hole until it stops, with the bullet facing forward, Then explain where the “front” of this cartridge is! (Dreise turret pistol) PS There was also a Dreise “turret” carbine!
  4. +6
    April 13 2024 09: 12
    The firm Dreyse & Collenbusch existed from 1824 to 1834.

    The company existed until 1924, and despite the fact that in 1834 Dreise sold his share in the company to Kollenbusch, his name in the name of the company remained until the moment when the company became part of the Selve-Kronbiegel-Dornheim AG (Selkado) concern 1924. The photo shows a Dreyse & Collenbusch catalog from 1909.
    1. +3
      April 13 2024 09: 34
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The company existed until 1924

      And Dreyse pistols from the early 20th century can “confirm” this!
      1. +5
        April 13 2024 13: 24
        And Dreyse pistols from the early 20th century can “confirm” this!

        Can not. After leaving Dreyse, Dreyse & Collenbusch did not produce weapons, only ammunition. And the pistol in the photograph, according to the official version, was developed by Schmeisser, although the absence of his name in the patent raises some doubts. Produced by Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik AG (Rheinmetall), which acquired Waffenfabrik von Dreyse in 1901 and used the well-known trademark.
        1. +4
          April 13 2024 15: 27
          So, I’m not saying that Johann or Franz Dreyse developed a self-loading pistol model 1907! But still, the name Dreyse was known in the 20th century! Not only pistols, but also Dreyse machine guns! In general, Draize is like Lenin! (Dreyse lived, Dreyze is alive, Dreyze will be....) ! Why judge me harshly? request In this story in German, one half-liter is not enough to understand! Nein sprechen si deutsche! No.
  5. +7
    April 13 2024 10: 30
    This front-to-back combustion pattern minimizes the effect seen in rear-fire cartridges, where some of the powder at the front of the charge is wasted as it is forced out of the barrel and burned in air as a muzzle flash.

    To put it mildly, a very controversial statement, which, it seems to me, was “made up out of thin air.” The burning rate of the gunpowder depends on the initial pressure created during the initiation of the primer - the higher it is, the faster the gunpowder ignites (we exclude the influence of the size and shape of the powder grains). When the primer ignites, the pressure acts in all directions, compressing the powder charge and moving the bullet along the barrel, which leads to an increase in the “combustion chamber”, which from a certain moment begins to have a positive effect on the uniformity of combustion of the charge. And the issue of unburned gunpowder flying out of the barrel is successfully resolved by correct selection of the charge, which, with the existing bullet, manages to burn as completely as possible in a barrel of a given length.
    1. +8
      April 13 2024 14: 07
      To put it mildly, a very controversial statement, which, it seems to me, was “made up out of thin air.”

      Due to the fact that the author in his articles touches on a wide range of technical issues in the absence of technical education, it is often difficult for him to critically evaluate the primary sources used. So it is in this case. In fact, unburned powder particles play a minimal role in the formation of a muzzle flash, appearing in the form of individual sparks, hardly noticeable against the background of the main flash, which is formed by powder gases. As for the combustion of gunpowder, this process is complex and the location of the igniter primer does not affect it.
      1. +5
        April 13 2024 20: 29
        As for the combustion of gunpowder, this process is complex and the location of the igniter primer does not affect it.

        Here Victor you can argue. Probably, a more accurate definition would be - not important due to the small volume of gunpowder. But starting with the 12,7mm caliber, the “anywhere” option will matter.
        1. +2
          April 13 2024 21: 20
          the “if-where” option will matter

          And what?
        2. +3
          April 14 2024 00: 15
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          not important due to the small volume of gunpowder. But starting with the 12,7mm caliber, the “anywhere” option will matter.

          Obviously, this placement of the primer is due to the need to give it a supporting surface and to ensure reliable ejection of this surface from the barrel by powder gases.
  6. +2
    April 13 2024 21: 12
    An interesting question: did the bullet itself touch the rifling of the barrel?

    Shpakovsky is hopeless. If anyone doesn’t understand, he claims that the Dreyse rifle bullet does not touch the rifling for a single moment during the shot, but is twisted solely by the efforts of a paper pallet glued to the bullet with bone glue. Allegedly, at the moment of firing, the paper pin expands and spins the bullet to the desired speed, while simultaneously protecting it from touching the rifling. wassat

    Shpakovsky does not explain why the spiegel expands but the bullet does not. The pressure of three tons on a paper spiegel does not bother him. In artillery, a shpigel is a wooden element that PREVENTS the rotation of a cannonball or bomb, which significantly increases the accuracy of smoothbore guns. This also doesn’t raise any questions or associations in Shpakovsky’s head.

    We can only advise Shpakovsky to continue to properly popularize torsion fields! This topic is optimally suited to study and presentation by accomplished humanists. tongue
    1. +2
      April 13 2024 21: 27
      If anyone doesn’t understand, he claims that the Dreyse rifle bullet does not touch the rifling for a single moment during the shot, but is twisted solely by the efforts of a paper pallet glued to the bullet with bone glue. Allegedly, at the moment of firing, the paper pin expands and spins the bullet to the desired speed, while simultaneously protecting it from touching the rifling.

      People don’t even believe in that. Conferences on geocentrism are still held.
    2. +6
      April 13 2024 23: 25
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Shpakovsky is hopeless. If anyone doesn’t understand, he claims that the Dreyse rifle bullet does not touch the rifling for a single moment during the shot, but is twisted solely by the efforts of a paper pallet glued to the bullet with bone glue. They say that at the moment of firing, the paper pin expands and spins the bullet to the desired speed, while simultaneously protecting it from touching the rifling

      Here you are getting excited), in Dreize rifles the bullet itself does not touch the rifling and this is not Shpakovsky’s idea - the bullet is highly sub-caliber.
      You can find out where competent people examined the subject of this article. Plus there are interesting points regarding the design of the shutter.
      https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/36/2539386.html
      1. +1
        April 15 2024 23: 29
        Quote: BORMAN82
        Here you are getting excited), in Dreize rifles the bullet itself does not touch the rifling and this is not Shpakovsky’s idea - the bullet is highly sub-caliber.

        Well, why did I immediately get excited, “sub-caliber” bullets are not new in old rifled weapons. You can immediately remember both the Minie bullet and the Berdan cartridge. And as for “highly sub-caliber”, you rather got excited here. Perhaps you forgot that in Germany the caliber is usually calculated by the bottom of the rifling. With a rifling depth of 0.78mm: 15.43 - 2*0.78 = we get 13.87 mm, this is the caliber of the Dreyse rifle if we count in Russian, by the vertices. The diameter of the bullet, let me remind you, is 13.6 mm, less but not that much.

        The link to the Hansa is certainly interesting, especially due to the excellent pictures of the device of the Dreyse rifle and the shooting videos. However, there is, of course, no explanation of the fabulous strength of the folder shpigel as described in Shpakovsky’s presentation. Just an indirect reference to the fact that the Germans considered a large pallet important. One can believe that the paper of the pallet played the role of an additional seal and lubricant for the bullet, partially protecting the barrel from lead. However, believe that it is the paper that transmits the torque from the rifling to the bullet, being secured only with ordinary bone glue, and with a force of about 3000 kg per sq.cm. - Sorry, but this is physically impossible. They switched to copper casings for bullets precisely because even to protect against lead, the strength of paper turned out to be insufficient; the paper casing was guaranteed to tear at the points of contact with the rifling.