Resistance of various types of armor, according to N. L. Klado and S. O. Makarov, in the light of tests 1892–1896

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Resistance of various types of armor, according to N. L. Klado and S. O. Makarov, in the light of tests 1892–1896

В previous article I presented the results of Russian experiments on steel-nickel and “surface-hardened” armor from various manufacturers, as well as testing the protection of domestic Poltava-class battleships.

During the first experiments in 1892, the Vickers garvey plate demonstrated a resistance of at least K = 1. However, subsequently the Russian Imperial Navy purchased products from the American Bethlehem Iron Company, which showed only K = 901 in tests in 1895. This is quite possible explain by assuming that here we are dealing with a standard spread in armor resistance, which could well fluctuate, say, within the “K” range of 1–717.

Again, let’s not forget that the Vickers slab presented for testing could have been manufactured by the company’s specialists specifically for testing and for the purpose of promoting their product, that is, on an individual basis, with the strictest control over adherence to technology. At the same time, the Bethlehem Iron Company products supplied for the squadron battleship Sevastopol were still serial.

In other words, the lower durability of the Harvey armor for the Sevastopol in comparison with the British one is quite understandable.



But how do you want to understand the solution for the battleship Petropavlovsk?

The crew of the latter had to be content with not cemented armor at all, but only steel-nickel armor with “K” = 1 from the same Bethlehem Iron Company. Which was inferior in strength not only to Harvey armor, but also to similar armor produced by the Obukhov plant, which in tests showed “K” obviously higher than 446.

Bribes? Negligence? Sober calculation?


And here, of course, I would like to understand the position of domestic specialists. Why did the Naval Department of the Russian Empire, instead of setting a standard and using the best armor according to the tests of 1892 (cemented according to the Harvey method of the Vickers company), made an inarticulate “hodgepodge”, ordering armor plates from different countries and different types for the newest battleships?

Why was Vickers armor never ordered for Poltava-class battleships?

Alas, I don’t have an answer to this question, I only have assumptions.

The fact is that the Vickers armor, which was quite remarkable for its time, found its place in the domestic navy – it was received by the Black Sea squadron battleship “Three Saints”. Let's not forget that the production of armor is a complex and lengthy process that requires a lot of special equipment, so it cannot be expanded quickly.

And it can be assumed that Vickers simply did not physically have time to supply the volumes of armor that the Russian Imperial Navy needed. That is, they bought as much from Vickers as the British could sell. The explanation, in my opinion, is quite reasonable, but perhaps there were other considerations.

In addition to Vickers products, the Three Saints received French armor, from different factories. Thus, the traverse armor plates were made by Schneider and Co., the casemates, conning tower and towers were made by Chamonet. And taking into account the fact that both the “Three Saints” and the Baltic battleships were laid down at approximately the same time, there is a feeling that the Russian Empire tried to reach as many foreign companies as possible in order to be able to test their armor and settle on the best.

On the other hand, it is possible that there was no such idea at all, but that they bought armor from everyone who could sell it simply because not a single manufacturer could provide the domestic fleet with the required number of armor plates.

Data from N. L. Klado and S. O. Makarov in the light of armor tests 1892–1896


S. O. Makarov in his work “Armored Ships or Unarmored Ships” provides the following data on the armor penetration of various projectiles against Krupp armor and the comparative durability of different types of armor.


Obviously, calculations of armor penetration were not carried out according to the de Marre formula, because for this table it is impossible to derive a single coefficient “K” even for a projectile of the same caliber.

So, for example, if we assume that we are talking about penetrating armor with zero deviation from the normal, then for a 305-mm projectile at a distance of 20 cables K = 2, and at a distance of 150 cables – 30. If the calculation takes into account the deviation from the normal in the size of the angle of incidence of the projectile, characteristic of these distances, it turns out K = 2 and 132, respectively.

Unlike S. O. Makarov, Klado directly names the “K” coefficients according to de Marr, which, in his opinion, correspond to one or another type of armor.

S. O. Makarov reports that his calculations of the durability of Krupp armor refer to armor-piercing projectiles without an armor tip. The tests of the armor of ships of the Poltava type could not have been any different - in those years, tips were not yet installed on our shells, although experiments were carried out with them.

As for N.L. Klado, he, unfortunately, does not indicate for which projectiles the coefficients he uses should be applied - with or without tips. But taking into account the fact that its indicators are very, very close to both the calculations of S. O. Makarov and the actual test results that I wrote about earlier, it is quite obvious that he is talking about shells without armor-piercing tips.

Translating all this into a single coordinate system, we get the following table.


There is a certain correlation between the masters' assessments and armor tests. And it would be quite logical to assume that both S. O. Makarov and N. L. Klado in their calculations were guided by the minimum acceptable values, which were shown by Harvey and steel-nickel armor from various foreign suppliers.

As for Krupp armor, at that time its only supplier for the Russian fleet was the German Krupp plant itself, so there was simply nothing to compare its products with.

However, we can compare German-made Krupp armor supplied to Poltava with domestic armor manufactured under a German license.

Here too, there is a clear convergence of data. The armor of the Poltava when fired by a 203-mm projectile showed “K” = 2, while the resistance of domestically produced Krupp armor in relation to 150-mm projectiles gave “K” = 203–2 for plates of the given thickness (normative value) and 189–2 in actual testing. Of course, in this case, the German armor looks somewhat worse than the domestic one, but this can easily be attributed to the usual variation in resistance values ​​during testing.

Based on the data presented, it can be assumed that the resistance of Krupp armor at the level of 2–150 was the standard not only in Russia, but also in Germany. If this is so, then we can state that our factories managed to master the licensed production of German armor without loss of quality.

But let's return to Harvey's armor.

About the durability of Garvey armor


So, at first glance, I was able to determine the comparative durability of Harvey and Krupp. And indeed, the Russian Naval Ministry was not only puzzled by the timely testing of surface-hardened Garvey armor, but also ordered it all over the world from a variety of manufacturers.

Naturally, the quality of the supplied armor was subjected to fire tests, similar to those carried out to protect the Poltava-class squadron battleships. Who else, if not Russian specialists, should know the strength characteristics of Harvey's armor?

And if they indicate “K” in the region of 1–687, then these were some minimum, standard resistance values ​​that foreign Harvey armor demonstrated. Although, of course, as in the cases with Krupp armor, the resistance of individual armor plates could be significantly higher - remember the Vickers plate, which showed a “K” higher than 1.

But the fact is that the durability of Harvey’s armor throughout its life cycle, that is, from the moment of its appearance until it was replaced by Krupp armor, was not a constant. The technology for manufacturing hardened armor improved over time - for example, in the USA, the Carnegie Steel Company used reforging of cemented plates, which the hardening process did not initially provide for.

Therefore, in the next article I will present to the dear reader the results of other tests of Harvey armor that took place in 1896–1897.

Looking ahead, I note that in them Harvey’s armor showed significantly better durability than in those that I described earlier.

About the production of Harvey's armor in the Russian Empire


A respected reader may have a question: why was it even necessary to focus on a foreign manufacturer when analyzing the durability of Harvey’s armor? Did we not make such armor ourselves?

Oddly enough, Russia has really delayed the development of the production of cemented armor plates. Despite the fact that the experiments of 1892 demonstrated the obvious advantage of armor hardened using the Harvey method (early Vickers), the Russian Empire, according to the respected S. E. Vinogradov, mastered large-scale production of this type of protection only four years later in 1896 ( according to R.V. Kondratenko - since 1895).

Moreover, the century of Harvey's armor turned out to be extremely short-lived for the domestic industry, since already in 1898–1899. Russian armor business reoriented towards Krupp armor. The last garvey slabs in Russia were produced in 1900.

Such a late transition to harveying can be explained by several reasons.

Firstly, of course, the inertia and slowness of the Maritime Department.

But I also came across another point of view.

The test results of the armor plate for the battleship Poltava demonstrate that Russia has mastered the production of very high-quality steel-nickel armor. At the same time, starting in 1892, very intensive experiments were carried out in Russia on the creation of armor-piercing tips, which were effective only on cemented plates, but did not give any effect when shooting at steel-nickel.

Accordingly, it can be assumed that the Naval Department was deliberately in no hurry to transfer domestic production to garvey plates, fearing that the appearance of “Makarov tips” would reduce the advantage of cemented armor to nothing.

However, in light of what will be said below, this version gives me very serious doubts - I am sure that it is incorrect.

For everyone interested history In the domestic armor industry, I strongly recommend that you read the work of the respected A. G. Matveenko, “Production of armor for the needs of the fleet in the Russian Empire.” In this work, the author has compiled a lot of interesting information from sources available to him, supplementing them with his own considerations, which are noted separately so as not to cause confusion.

So, according to the sketches of the history of the factories that A.G. Matveenko used, the Naval Department did not acquire a patent for the production of Harvey's armor and did not use any foreign assistance. Simply put, representatives of the factories studied, as far as they could, the technological processes for producing garvey slabs abroad, and then reproduced them at the Izhora plant.

It can be assumed that it was this “reverse engineering” that led to a significant delay in the development of the production of Garvey armor. The Naval Ministry wanted to receive such armor for the armored cruiser "Russia", but was forced to order it abroad, since the domestic manufacturer did not have time.

It is possible that the domestically produced Harvey armor was used in the construction of the coastal defense battleship Admiral General Apraksin, but what is certain is that the bulk of the Harvey armor on the squadron battleships Peresvet and Oslyabya was of domestic production.

However, there are nuances here too.


Firstly, it is reliably known that for Peresvet the casemate armor was ordered in the USA from the Carnegie company. In addition, according to the Most Valuable Report on the Naval Department for 1897–1900, 170,9 tons of armor were manufactured for Peresvet by the Krupp plant, this, according to the calculations of A.G. Matveenko, “was only enough for the lower ring of the aft turret barbette and the lower and middle rings of the barbette of the bow tower, which, due to the great loss of their slabs, could cause the greatest difficulties for the Izhora factories.” Obviously, the Krupp plant would not produce armor using Harvey's technology.

Secondly, A.G. Matveenko quite rightly points out that the armor of the supply pipes (barbettes) for the Oslyabi, manufactured somewhere around 1900-1901, was also most likely Krupp armor.

It can be assumed that, faced with the difficulties of “reverse engineering,” the Naval Ministry did not want this to happen again and entered into an honest, albeit very expensive, contract with Krupp to organize the production of his armor in Russia. This was very expensive - in the first 6 years, F. Krupp had to be paid 100 rubles for each ton of slabs cemented by his method produced in the Russian Empire, but not less than 100 rubles per year.

In the next 6 years, the “hundred-ruble” tariff was retained, but the minimum annual payment amount was not established. For uncemented Krupp armor they paid half as much - 50 rubles/t. At the same time, changes and additions to the method of manufacturing armor by Russian factories were not grounds for canceling payments.

But there was also a very interesting condition in favor of the Naval Ministry - if, after three years from the start of production in Russia, some factory in the world came up with armor that was more than 10% superior to Krupp’s, then further payments could be stopped.

Of course, in this case, the Naval Ministry decided not to skimp and to accelerate in every possible way the introduction of the best type of armor on domestic ships, even at a high price.

As for the quality of domestically produced Harvey armor for the Oslyabi and Peresvet, it remains a mystery to me.

Most likely, ours managed to “spy” and reproduce exactly the early technology of Harvey’s armor, in which the lower limit of “K” was something like 1, and the upper limit hardly exceeded 700.

This version is supported by the fact that both S. O. Makarov and N. L. Klado, dealing with issues of armor, could not help but know that Harvey’s armor could be much more durable - after all, an improved “Harvey” "produced by the Carnegie plant was supplied for the cruiser "Russia" and, probably, for the casemates of "Peresvet" (although there is an opinion that the latter received casemates from Krupp armor).

However, both of them in their works indicated data on the “early” Harvey - is it not because for Russian industry it was “K” within 1 that was established as the minimum resistance values?

Again, a fairly logical picture of what is happening is emerging: Harvey armor is being created in the world, we are mastering its production with a considerable delay, and then suddenly the same “Harvey” appears, but much more durable, and also Krupp... With such initial conditions it becomes more than The desire of the Naval Ministry, no longer taking into account costs, to master the most durable type of armor is understandable.

The final answer about the strength of the armor of “Peresvet” and “Oslyabi” could be given by acceptance tests of the armor by shooting, which, alas, I do not have.

To be continued ...
69 comments
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  1. +3
    29 March 2024 05: 04
    Hello, dear Andrey!

    Thanks for another interesting job.
    I read the series with pleasure, but, due to the circumstances known to you, in recent weeks I have not always had the opportunity to concentrate and comment, much less debate.

    And here, of course, I would like to understand the position of domestic specialists. Why did the Naval Department of the Russian Empire, instead of setting a standard and using the best armor according to the tests of 1892 (cemented according to the Harvey method of the Vickers company), made an inarticulate “hodgepodge”, ordering armor plates from different countries and different types for the newest battleships?


    The numbers suggest that this is a consequence of the pursuit of cheapness. They took armor where they asked for less. And the difference in durability, apparently, was not considered critical.
    In some ways, this approach is justified.
    They paid an additional $310 for the installation of deck armor made of extra-soft nickel steel (instead of regular steel) on the Varyag and Retvizan. Did this help the Varyag a lot? And the Retvizan could easily have made do with a deck made of ordinary steel, but the Japanese made do.
    1. +2
      29 March 2024 05: 59
      In some ways, this approach is justified.

      What to do if funding for the shipbuilding program was cut.
      In total, with the allocated funds, Russian shipyards were able to deliver to the fleet the squadron battleships Petropavlovsk, Poltava, Sevastopol and Sisoy the Great, three coastal defense battleships of the Admiral Ushakov type, the armored cruiser Rurik and 28 mine (torpedo) ships .
      1. +2
        29 March 2024 09: 29
        Most likely no. The technical process has not been mastered everywhere even abroad. Factories are busy. Time is running out. So eat the Georgian dish zrichodali.
    2. +1
      29 March 2024 13: 13
      Quote: Comrade
      And the Retvizan could easily have made do with a deck made of ordinary steel, but the Japanese made do.

      That’s the question - how significant is the presence of different types of armor in combat differences? request
    3. +1
      29 March 2024 17: 47
      Good afternoon, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      The numbers suggest that this is a consequence of the pursuit of cheapness. They took armor where they asked for less. And the difference in durability, apparently, was not considered critical.

      It may very well be so. The price factor, undoubtedly, could play a significant role in the choice. But still, if we were guided only by him, we would take the cheapest, at the same time, we would still take a certain amount of armor from the same Vickers, etc.
      1. +3
        30 March 2024 03: 59
        Hello, dear Andrey!

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        nevertheless, if they were guided only by him, they would take the cheapest, at the same time, they would still take a certain amount of armor from the same Vickers, etc.

        I'm not an expert, of course :-), so I can only put forward a hypothesis based on price statistics.

        It can be assumed that Vickers also had discounts, and they were “caught.”
        When it didn’t work out, they paid the average market price.
        Here are a couple of abstract examples.
        In December 1894, a contract was signed with the South Bethlehem plant, which was in desperate need of orders. According to the contract, the Americans were supposed to supply us with about 1 tons of steel-nickel armor (264% hardened). Cost - $30 per ton.
        I liked the armor and the speed of delivery too.
        As a result, a year later, two more contracts were concluded with the Americans for the supply of steel-nickel armor (South Bethlehem Plant and Carnegie). Accordingly, 1 tons and 100 tons. But the price is already normal, $1 and $000 respectively.

        The British and French also had discounts, obviously due to certain circumstances.
        For example, for the “Three Saints” the Cammall company in 1894 managed to order steel-nickel armor at a price of $358 per ton, and from Creuzot for him - steel-nickel armor at a price of $311,46 per ton.
        Despite the fact that the normal price in 1894 in the States for steel-nickel armor fluctuated in the range of $500-575 per ton.
        All this gives reason to believe that the “hodgepodge” when ordering armor abroad was due to considerations of economy. Wherever it was possible to order cheaper, we ordered it there.

        But this, of course, is just my subjective opinion, which I in no way present as the ultimate truth.
        Yes, someone is playing around with the “cons” here. I "neutralized" laughing
        1. +2
          30 March 2024 09: 39
          All this gives reason to believe that the “hodgepodge” when ordering armor abroad was due to considerations of economy. Wherever it was possible to order cheaper, we ordered it there.

          Yes, this is happening everywhere now!!! People are going crazy over discounts. They sit on sites for days and catch promotions. Therefore there is no need to be surprised here.
          And within the framework of the construction of a large ship, the savings are quite good. This is from that poem where time-quality-price are given and you need to choose only two parameters. So we caught something cheap here and now, but of worse quality. In trading, this principle is still relevant today. There is always a choice. The only question is whether it is correct... hi
        2. +3
          30 March 2024 10: 17
          Good morning, dear Valentin!
          Quote: Comrade
          All this gives reason to believe that the “hodgepodge” when ordering armor abroad was due to considerations of economy.

          Taking into account the data you presented, I can only agree. It is quite possible that the main factor was the price, the second was the ability to deliver the required volumes of armor on time.
          Quote: Comrade
          Yes, someone is playing around with the “cons” here.

          :))) Really, you shouldn’t pay such attention
          1. +1
            31 March 2024 02: 12
            Hello, dear Andrey!

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Taking into account the data you presented, I can only agree.

            Here, by the way, is another argument.
            The Krupp company produced a certain amount of Krupp armor for the battleship Poltava at a price of $542,64 per ton. Moreover, in the States at that time, Harvey’s armor cost, depending on the weight and configuration of the plate, from $561,60 to $636,60.
            Harvey's armor for the battleships Charlemagne and Saint-Louis was supplied at a price of $540 per ton.
            Ours obviously tried to look where it was cheaper.
    4. 0
      29 March 2024 20: 52
      Quote: Comrade
      They paid an additional $310 for the installation of deck armor made of extra-soft nickel steel (instead of regular steel) on the Varyag and Retvizan. Did this help the Varyag a lot?

      And don't talk! No amount of armor will help against cowardice or betrayal. request
  2. 0
    29 March 2024 06: 15
    I only have time to write one word - THANK YOU!
    1. +2
      29 March 2024 17: 48
      You are always welcome, dear Vladislav!
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +3
    29 March 2024 07: 39
    Many thanks to the Author, very interesting material for me.

    Regarding the choice of armor, I think there were budgetary issues.

    PS Knowing the history of our battleships and looking at their photos, some kind of sadness rolls over. But I can’t tear myself away and really love looking at them.
    1. +1
      29 March 2024 14: 29
      Yes, don't worry so much wink
      It wasn't much better in other countries. Heavy industry is very inertial. And you never know what scientists/engineers came up with there. It is necessary to modernize production and not stop the existing one. Somewhere to put the reserves. Etc. Someone also needs to make the equipment for this. Install, run. The same change from Harvey to Krupp happened very quickly. Imagine the situation: yesterday it was steel-iron, today it’s Harvey, and tomorrow it’s Krupp. We put it into operation with the compound, we are making ships for Harvey and designing for it, orders have been placed, and here we go! The legend is changing. And we need to build ships. Yes, and Harvey's armor is not that bad. At least in the REV, the quality of the armor did not play any role.
      1. +1
        29 March 2024 14: 51
        Quote: MCmaximus
        Imagine the situation: yesterday it was steel-iron, today it’s Harvey, and tomorrow it’s Krupp. We put it into operation with the compound, we are making ships for Harvey and designing for it, orders have been placed, and here we go! The legend is changing.

        And you can make money on every turn. Actually, Kurpp did just that.
    2. 0
      29 March 2024 17: 48
      Quote: S.Z.
      Many thanks to the Author, very interesting material for me.

      And thank you for your kind words. We are trying :)))
  5. +2
    29 March 2024 09: 33
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting continuation.

    Again, let’s not forget that the Vickers slab presented for testing could have been manufactured by the company’s specialists specifically for testing and for the purpose of promoting their product, that is, on an individual basis, with the strictest control over adherence to technology.


    You are right, in England two or three slabs were actually made for testing under strict control. The quality of these slabs was different from the quality of mass-produced slabs. The French selected a slab from a finished batch for testing, so the results could be lower than the “example” English slabs.
    1. +1
      29 March 2024 17: 48
      Thank you very much for the information, dear Igor, I didn’t know.
  6. 0
    29 March 2024 11: 00
    Andrey, regarding the discrepancy with the types of armor steels, for RIF. I would like to remind you that at the end of the 1895th and beginning of the XNUMXth centuries, the production of large-sized and thick armor plates was a very complex technology available to a small number of factories. In Russia there is only the Obukhov plant, in other countries there are not very many either, two or three plants each. And they were busy with work for years to come. Both for our own fleet and under foreign contracts. That’s why they took everything, where and as much as they could get. Since the plant could not cope with its own, and the needs under the XNUMX program were enormous.
    1. 0
      29 March 2024 11: 14
      Z.Y. Many ships were ordered abroad, usually with armor from the country of the builder.
    2. +2
      29 March 2024 14: 22
      .in other countries there are also not very many, two or three factories. And they were busy with work for years to come

      Dear colleague, this is not entirely true. The South Bethlehem plant, for example, after fulfilling orders for the American fleet, was on the verge of stopping production. Therefore, they agreed to provide the Russian government with an extremely high discount, just so that the plant would not shut down and not lose personnel.
      Then the situation changed for them, of course, but when it came to ordering armor for the Poltava-class battleships, it was exactly like this: either sell the armor at a loss, or close down.
      1. +1
        29 March 2024 14: 31
        I do not deny that there were periods when the demand for their products dropped to almost “0”. In the USA, in general, the fleet developed in a very specific way - in spurts. Periods of vigorous activity were followed by decades of stagnation. Accordingly, there were problems for manufacturers of everything necessary for the fleet, including armor and large-caliber guns.
    3. +2
      29 March 2024 17: 50
      Quote: TermNachTER
      In Russia there is only the Obukhov plant

      More Izhora
      Quote: TermNachTER
      That’s why they took everything, where and as much as they could get.

      It may very well be, and I noted this option.
      On the other hand, it is possible that there was no such idea at all, but that they bought armor from everyone who could sell it simply because not a single manufacturer could provide the domestic fleet with the required number of armor plates.
      1. +1
        29 March 2024 18: 03
        Well - two factories, for two fleets, is somehow not enough. Not to mention the fact that both factories were busy producing other military products. We had to distribute our efforts.
        1. +1
          29 March 2024 18: 15
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Well - two factories, for two fleets, somehow not enough

          At that stage - yes, of course. At that time, our production capacity was far from keeping up with the needs. This is not even a question of factories, but a question of the amount of equipment they have. That’s why they ordered armor en masse.
          On the plus side, we can say that our own production was then developed very quickly, and if for the same Poltava the main armor was ordered abroad, then the much larger Borodino armored vehicles were already reserved mainly for their own
          1. +1
            29 March 2024 18: 37
            Yes, I read that during the construction of the Borodino-type series of electronic warfare units, it was necessary to significantly expand armor production and the production of large-caliber guns.
  7. +2
    29 March 2024 11: 28
    Obviously, the Krupp plant would not produce armor using Harvey's technology.

    Hmm ..
    I've always wondered if steel made in Essen, but hardened using the Harvey method before Krupp hardening was introduced, would be called "Krupp" steel? And won't this cause confusion in the sources...
    1. 0
      29 March 2024 14: 42
      I've always wondered if steel produced in Essen would be called "Krupp"

      The author just doesn’t know that Krupp, along with Vickers, Armstrong, Schneider, Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel, were part of the Harvey United Steel syndicate.
      1. +1
        29 March 2024 14: 50
        Hmm... I didn't know either.
        Manchester didn't seem to write about this request
        1. +2
          29 March 2024 18: 39
          Hmm... I didn't know either.

          In 1894, the world's main manufacturers of ship armor, Vickers, Armstrong, Krupp, Schneider, Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel (a total of ten firms) formed the Harvey United Steel Company trust to coordinate work in the field of production technologies and coordinate royalty payments on patents. Below in the photo is a diagram of the connections between armor manufacturers within this trust.
      2. 0
        29 March 2024 15: 49
        Quote: Dekabrist
        The author just doesn’t know that Krupp, along with Vickers, Armstrong, Schneider, Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel, were part of the Harvey United Steel syndicate.

        Dear Victor. In what year did this unification take place and what does it have to do with armor?
        1. 0
          29 March 2024 18: 44
          In what year did this unification take place and what does it have to do with armor?

          See the comment above, I replied.
          1. 0
            29 March 2024 20: 28
            Quote: Dekabrist
            In 1894, the world's major manufacturers of ship armor, Vickers, Armstrong, Krupp, Schneider, Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel (a total of ten firms) to coordinate work on production technologies


            Victor, I think you know that Harvey United Steel was originally created to purchase armor production technologies, but it didn’t work out. It was then that the listed companies were invited to cooperate in the sales of armor third countries. Harvey United Steel could not sell armor in France, the USA, Germany and England.
            The Harvey United Steel Company Trust organized the coordination of royalty payments on patents.


            Harvey United Steel Company did not coordinate payments, but was primarily concerned with distributing orders for armor. This resulted in some producers receiving less income than they paid in "dues" to the Harvey United Steel Company. As a result, the British simply bought patents for the production of Krupp and Harvey armor in 1897. You know what happened in 1901-1902.
            1. 0
              29 March 2024 21: 00
              Can you share sources of information on Harvey United Steel?
              1. 0
                30 March 2024 07: 32
                Good morning.
                Dear Victor, if you want, briefly and concisely, “Vickers a history”, if in more detail, foreign journals of metallurgy and industry from 1893 to 1908. hi
    2. +1
      29 March 2024 17: 53
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      I've always wondered if steel made in Essen, but hardened using the Harvey method before Krupp hardening was introduced, would be called "Krupp" steel?

      Interesting question :))))) But in this case, my confidence that it was Krupp that was produced at the Krupp plant is based on the production time. I don’t know exactly when the order for the Peresvet armor was made, but obviously by that time Krupp’s armor had already been mastered by Krupp :)))))))
    3. +2
      30 March 2024 05: 01
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      I've always wondered if steel made in Essen, but hardened using the Harvey method before Krupp hardening was introduced, would be called "Krupp" steel? And won’t this cause confusion in the sources?

      My respect, dear colleague!
      In the German reference book Taschenbuch der Kriegsflotten for 1904, Harvey's armor, manufactured in Germany and installed on German battleships, is designated by the letter "H", i.e. Harvey-Platten.
      Screenshot attached :-)
      1. +1
        31 March 2024 10: 30
        In the German reference book Taschenbuch der Kriegsflotten for 1904, Harvey's armor, manufactured in Germany and installed on German battleships, is designated by the letter "H", i.e. Harvey-Platten.

        Greetings, Valentin!
        And in 1902, in the same directory they wrote that only Weissenburg had armor with the letter “H” https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/BKM/Brand/Draw/12.jpg
        Strange. Muzhenikov writes that: “On the battleships Brandenburg and Weissenburg, both main armor belts and the remaining barbettes on all ships were made from Krupp cemented armor.”
        Well, this phrase, of course, is a so-so source.
        1. 0
          April 1 2024 02: 11
          Hello, Yura!
          Quote: Jura 27
          And in 1902, in the same directory they wrote that only Weissenburg had armor with the letter “H”

          Yes indeed. Maybe a typo?
          Quote: Jura 27
          Muzhenikov writes that: “On the battleships Brandenburg and Weissenburg, both main armor belts and the remaining barbettes on all ships were made from Krupp cemented armor.”

          Perhaps he thinks that if the armor was made at the Krupp plant, then it is already Krupp armor.
          Brassey writes in 1902 that the Brandenburg had compound armor. Here, see for yourself.
  8. +3
    29 March 2024 14: 35
    It is noteworthy that during the Russo-Japanese War, the level of resistance of projectile-proof armor of one type or another on Russian ships played practically no role. The Japanese fleet did not have insensitive explosives or delayed-action fuses for armor-piercing shells, so any armor plate, even steel-iron, protected against Japanese shells. British armor-piercing shells filled with black powder with British delayed-action fuses were apparently used by the Japanese fleet in minimal quantities and their hits were sporadic.

    In 1904-1905 What was important was not the level of resistance of the armor, but its very presence. In the end, the Poltava-class battleships were armored in Port Arthur (the side in the area of ​​the 6th "battery) with "sandwiches" of half-inch iron sheets with a total thickness of 3". During the entire war, the projectile resistance of such improvised “armor” was never tested due to the lack of projectile hits, but they certainly increased the anti-fragmentation protection of the 6" guns of the battery of these battleships.

    Effects:

    Based on the results of the defeats of the Russian fleet in the Russo-Japanese War under the fire of the cannons of the Japanese fleet, conclusions were drawn that were correct for 1904-1905, but erroneous for the near future, that it is not the projectile resistance of armor plates that is important, but primarily the area of ​​protection that these armor plates provide ( the freeboard armor area of ​​the same "post-Tsushima" battleships of the "Andrei Pervozvanny" type was almost 100% with a maximum thickness of the main belt armor plates of only 216 mm).

    Worse, on the first Russian dreadnoughts of the Sevastopol type, the main belt formed from armor plates with a maximum thickness of 225 mm turned out to be only slightly thicker than that of the “post-Tsushima” battleships of the Andrei Pervozvanny type, and the turrets of the Sevastopol GC, with their frontal armor plates with a thickness of 203 mm, and in particular the barbettes of these towers, with a maximum thickness of armor plates of 152 mm, turned out to be simply “cardboard” for the conditions of the First World War. Simply abandoning the active combat use of the Sevastopol-type missiles was able to save some of them from the fate of three British battlecruisers that exploded during the Battle of Jutland when hit by German armor-piercing shells.

    The same applies to main caliber ammunition. The people responsible for the military-technical policy of building the fleet concluded that the main main battery projectile of the first Russian dreadnoughts of the Sevastopol type would be a high-explosive, not an armor-piercing projectile. The main battery magazines of these ships were supposed to contain 900 high-explosive and only 300 armor-piercing 12" shells.

    The “post-Tsushima” conclusions of domestic military and civilian officials who influenced the construction of the fleet turned out to be erroneous because by the First World War, correctly designed large-caliber armor-piercing shells with an explosive charge that could withstand the impact of a shell on an armored plate without exploding appeared in the arsenal of the fleets of the world, primarily the German fleet, which acted as an enemy of the RIF and a delayed action fuse (deceleration ~0,05 sec).

    It’s bad when erroneous conclusions are drawn based on one’s own victories. It’s even worse when such conclusions are made based on one’s own defeats. The military-technical aspects of the “post-Tsushima syndrome” in the post-war reconstruction of the RIF demonstrated not proactive, but clearly reactive thinking of the military and civilian officials of the Russian Empire responsible for the military-technical policy of the fleet.
    1. +2
      29 March 2024 17: 54
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Based on the results of the defeats of the Russian fleet in the Russo-Japanese War under the fire of the cannons of the Japanese fleet, conclusions were drawn that were correct for 1904-1905, but erroneous for the near future, that it is not the shell resistance of armor plates that is important, but primarily the area of ​​protection that these armor plates provide

      A myth that is as common as it is false.
  9. 0
    29 March 2024 21: 27
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    A myth that is as common as it is false.

    To support your thesis, simply provide the armor scheme of any of the foreign pre-dreadnoughts and first-generation dreadnoughts with a vertical armor area comparable to the Andrei Pervozvanny-class battleships and Sevastopol-class battleships.
    1. +2
      29 March 2024 23: 03
      Quote: AlexanderA
      To support your thesis, simply provide a reservation scheme

      Firstly, such “reinforcement” does not confirm or refute my thesis. Secondly - yes please, see the battleships... or even Helgoland
      1. 0
        29 March 2024 23: 37
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Firstly, such “reinforcement” does not confirm or refute my thesis. Secondly - yes please, see the battleships... or even Helgoland

        I am sure you are aware that the battleships of the "Andrei Pervozvanny" class had ~95% of their freeboard reserved. Will the Heligolands have at least 75% of the board?

        Further, already in 1914, years before Jutland, but based on the results of the shooting in August 1913 of the “excluded ship No. 4”, domestic shipbuilders knew where they had “messed up” to the greatest extent with the armor protection of battleships of the Andrei Pervozvanny type and dreadnoughts of the "Sevastopol". Most of all, the armor protection of the main battery tower artillery, both the towers themselves and their barbettes.

        The frontal armor protection of the towers in the project of the fourth Black Sea LC increased to 300 mm, by a third in comparison with the frontal armor of "St. Andrew the First-Called" and "Sevastopol", the armor of the roofs of the towers increased to 200 mm, 2,63 times in comparison with "Sevastopol" and more more than three times in comparison with “Andrew the First-Called” (we will omit the features of the slope of the armor of the front plates and tower roofs), the maximum thickness of the tower barbettes increased to 300 mm, 2 times exceeding the maximum thickness of the “Sevastopol” tower barbettes. The percentage of the area of ​​the reserved side in comparison with the "St. Andrew the First-Called" has, of course, dropped significantly.

        By 1914, domestic shipbuilders already knew very well where they made the biggest mistake in the “post-Tsushima” projects for the best domestic pre-dreadnought and the first domestic dreadnought.

        As far as I can see, you deny these mistakes even today, 110 years later, since domestic shipbuilders admitted them in their drawings.

        I was not mistaken, do you deny it?

        PS Will we compare the rotating and stationary armor of the turrets of the Helgolandov CG with the rotating and stationary armor of the turrets of the Sevastopol CG, or will we skip this step?
        1. +1
          30 March 2024 00: 24
          Quote: AlexanderA
          I am sure you are aware that the battleships of the "Andrei Pervozvanny" class had ~95% of their freeboard reserved. Will the Heligolands have at least 75% of the board?

          The diagram is attached to you. The only difference with Sevastopol is that the German has one inter-deck space from the main battery turret that is not armored both in the bow and stern, while in Sevastopol it is only in the stern. This difference is negligible.
          So the German fleet also had very developed side armor - deal with it :))))
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The percentage of the area of ​​the reserved side in comparison with the "St. Andrew the First-Called" has, of course, dropped significantly.

          You have an unusually wild imagination. The armor of the 4th dreadnought of the Black Sea Fleet is exactly the same in area as that of Sevastopol.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          As far as I can see, you deny these mistakes even today

          I do not deny the mistakes, but the reason for these mistakes voiced by you, specifically your statement
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Based on the results of the defeats of the Russian fleet in the Russo-Japanese War under the fire of the cannons of the Japanese fleet, conclusions were drawn that were correct for 1904-1905, but erroneous for the near future, that it is not the shell resistance of armor plates that is important, but primarily the area of ​​protection that these armor plates provide

          The reasons for the relative weakness of the armor of Sevastopol are different, you do not know them and you do not understand why the protection on the Black Sea dreadnoughts was strengthened.
          1. 0
            30 March 2024 01: 48
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The diagram is attached to you. The only difference with Sevastopol is that the German has one inter-deck space from the main battery turret that is not armored both in the bow and stern, while in Sevastopol it is only in the stern. This difference is negligible.

            “Insignificant” is just a subjective value judgment. For objective comparisons, humanity came up with numbers. If you express the difference in absolute area values, or in relative terms, as a percentage of the total freeboard area, then you will immediately see whether the difference was “negligible”.

            And if we express this “insignificance” in tons of armored steel, then I would not be surprised if it turns out that the tons of armored steel saved on the armoring area of ​​the upper part of the freeboard of the Helgolands more than covered those tons of armored steel that the turrets and barbettes of the Sevastopols lacked for this purpose so that their vertical armor protection ceases to be one and a half to two times inferior to the vertical armor protection of the foreheads of the Heligoland turrets and barbettes.

            You have an unusually wild imagination. The armor of the 4th dreadnought of the Black Sea Fleet is exactly the same in area as that of Sevastopol.

            There must be something wrong with your vision. In the stern of the future "Emperor Nicholas I" behind the main battery turret, it was planned not to armor the freeboard at all for two inter-deck spaces in height and to abandon the second armored deck. Several hundred square meters less side and deck armor compared to Sevastopol.

            I do not deny the mistakes, but the reason for these mistakes voiced by you, specifically your statement... The reasons for the relative weakness of the reservation of Sevastopol are different

            Anyone with eyes can see what percentage of the freeboard area was reserved on the Sevastopol, the largest among all dreadnoughts. But the armor of the turrets and their barbettes on the Sevastopol was even worse than on the British Lion-class battlecruisers. As is known, during the Battle of Jutland, the Lion, having grabbed a 305 mm shell from the Q turret, did not explode only because the mortally wounded turret commander, Marine Major F. J. Harvey, managed to give the order to batten down the doors and flood the cellar.

            To imagine, by analogy, what would have happened to the Sevastopol towers if they, or their barbettes, had been hit by 305 mm or even 280 mm German armor-piercing shells during the First World War, no great imagination is required.

            The armor protection of the Sevastopol towers and barbettes could not reliably contain the armor-piercing shells of the main battery of German battleships and battlecruisers at the ranges of artillery battles characteristic of that time.

            But you, of course, can continue to argue that the armor protection of the Sevastopol “in general, also cannot be called very bad protection.” The main thing with red arrows is not to focus the reader’s attention on the very glaring holes in this protection, and in no way to consider how much the displacement of the Sevastopols would have increased if the barbettes of their towers had a maximum thickness of not 152 mm, but 300 mm, frontal plates the towers would have a thickness of not 203 mm, but also 300 mm, and the roofs of the towers would not be 76 mm, but 152 mm.
            1. +1
              30 March 2024 10: 55
              Quote: AlexanderA
              “Insignificant” is just a subjective value judgment. For objective comparisons, humanity came up with numbers

              So finally take advantage of them. You make a statement - they say that Sevastopol is a project of the frightened, because the side area is maximally armored. There are no numbers. There is no definition.
              Take the "St. Andrew the First-Called" - it has not 95%, but the WHOLE side is armored. The Sevastopol has not all of it, but only a large part, one deck space from the fourth tower to the stern is not armored. But in your opinion this does not count, Sevastopol is still a “project of the frightened”. But when I write to you about the fourth Black Sea dreadnought, which has an area similar to Sevastopol, which is smaller than Sevastopol in the same stern by one inter-deck space - a mustache, it is no longer a project of the frightened :))))))
              You have enough conscience to reproach me for the numbers, despite the fact that you yourself, it seems, have never even seen them
              Quote: AlexanderA
              And if we express this “insignificance” in tons of armored steel, then I would not be surprised if it turns out that the tons of armored steel saved on the armoring area of ​​the upper part of the freeboard of the Helgolands more than covered those tons of armored steel that the turrets and barbettes of the Sevastopols lacked for this purpose so that their vertical armor protection ceases to be one and a half to two times inferior to the vertical armor protection of the foreheads of the Heligoland turrets and barbettes.

              We count. The inter-deck space on the ship is approximately 2,75 m, the length of the section that is not reserved from Heligoland, but is reserved from Sevastopol is about 40 meters, the thickness of the armor is 75 mm, the total cubic capacity of the armor is 8,25 cubic meters. m. taking into account the specific weight of the armor is about 8 t/cubic, the total weight is 66 tons, from both sides - as much as 136 tons...
              If you weren’t talking absolute nonsense, but would give yourself the trouble to THINK about the reasons for the relatively thin armor of Sevastopol, then they are, in fact, on the surface. Sevastopol's GBP has a much larger area than any modern dreadnought. Then I would also remind you that the Sevastopol power plant weighed much more than the German ones, but this is absolutely higher mathematics for you...
              And most importantly, you are completely unable to perceive what your opponent is telling you. I tell you Russians in plain English, YES, RUSSIAN DAEDNOUTS SEVASTOPOL ARE UNARMORIZED, BUT THE REASONS FOR THIS ARE NOT WHAT YOU THINK.
              And in response I hear AAAA, EVERYTHING IS NOT TRUE, BECAUSE RUSSIAN DREADNIGHTS ARE WEAKLY ARMORED!
              Before you tell me anything about numbers, learn to at least hear what they say to you and argue with your opponent, and not with the voices in your head.

              Quote: AlexanderA
              As is known, during the Battle of Jutland, the Lion, having grabbed a 305 mm shell from the Q turret, did not explode only because the mortally wounded turret commander, Marine Major F. J. Harvey, managed to give the order to batten down the doors and flood the cellar.

              To imagine, by analogy, what would have happened to the Sevastopol towers if they, or their barbettes, had been hit by 305 mm or even 280 mm German armor-piercing shells during the First World War, no great imagination is required.

              Of course not. Nothing would have happened, because, unlike British LKRs, Russian dreadnoughts had much more sophisticated mechanisms for supplying and storing ammunition.
              If you had studied history and not fantasized about it, then you would have known that both the Germans and the British had barbettes, but the Germans were saved by chance at Dogger Bank, and then they made design changes. And the German ships did not explode, despite the barbettes being penetrated
              1. 0
                30 March 2024 11: 51
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                66 tons, from both sides - as much as 136 tons...

                132 t, of course
              2. +1
                30 March 2024 12: 19
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                then you would know that both the Germans and the British made their way to barbettes, but the Germans were saved by chance at Dogger Bank, and then they made design changes.

                Here we can add that the French carried out experimental firing at the German battleship Thüringen. Plates of 100 mm, 170 mm and 250 mm and came to the conclusion that the “vaunted” Krupp armor was not so strong. To penetrate the corresponding guns, the shells required less velocity when hitting the armor than was necessary to defeat French armor of the same thickness. Not only thickness, but also workmanship matters.
                1. +1
                  31 March 2024 06: 11
                  Class!! The myth about the good armor of German ships has been debunked. It remains to figure out how one hit gave Provence a bubble. You will inevitably think about psychological superiority.
                  1. +1
                    31 March 2024 09: 40
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    Class!! The myth about the good armor of German ships has been debunked.


                    To make it more clear, Krupp armor is 100 mm thick, the gun is 138 mm caliber, the difference in projectile speed is 1,14; armor thickness 170 mm, gun caliber 160 mm, difference in projectile speed 1,10; armor thickness 250 mm, gun caliber 305 mm, difference in projectile speed 1,13.
              3. 0
                30 March 2024 14: 10
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So finally take advantage of them. You make a statement - they say that Sevastopol is a project of the frightened, because the side area is maximally armored. There are no numbers. There is no definition.

                You stated that the difference in the percentage of the area of ​​the reserved side of the Sevastopol and Helgoland is “negligible”. You have to prove this “insignificance” with numbers in your hands. Do you want with absolute square meters, or with relative, percentages.

                You attribute to me the statement “Sevastopol is a project of the frightened.” This is not my statement, but that of the Soviet historian of shipbuilding and fleet M.M. Dementieva.

                “The historian of shipbuilding and the fleet M.M. Dementyev once spoke about battleships - dreadnoughts of the Sevastopol type in the words “this is a project of the frightened.” They were talking about the “smearedness” of the armor of these ships, which did not provide, as they belatedly realized, protection from the fire of heavy guns. This "fear", inexpressibly acute in the year of the Tsushima disaster, apparently reigned supreme in all circles of shipbuilding and the navy. Everyone seemed to have forgotten about the recent pioneering role of domestic shipbuilding in solving the unsinkability of ships and the advantages that it carries to ensure its survivability." quote from, Melnikov Rafail Mikhailovich "Battleship "Andrew the First-Called" (1906-1925)"

                I believe that it is not very good for a certified specialist in historiography as a scientific discipline to do this. However, I can assume that for post-Soviet historical revisionists who are trying to subtly refute the conclusions of specialists of previous generations in an attempt to say their “new word in history”, keeping silent about the names of “the titans on whose shoulders we stand” is quite in the order of things. Such historical revisionists are comfortable working with an audience that does not know the history of the issue. Alas, I know the history of the issue. The statement about the "Frightened Project" was made many decades ago. And you are trying to refute it by attributing authorship to the late Soviet historian M.M. Dementev, and the now living Internet anonymous Alexander. After all, it’s more convenient for you. By silencing the true author of the statement, you are no longer a historical revisionist.

                I'm guessing correctly about the basics of your discussion tactics, no?

                Please note that when I take a historically revisionist position on something, I will not hide it. :)

                You have enough conscience to reproach me for the numbers, despite the fact that you yourself, it seems, have never even seen them


                Yes, as a connoisseur of the conclusions on the issues raised by specialists and historians from the Soviet school, I have the conscience to accuse you of latent historical revisionism. It would be nice if you came out with an open visor, writing: “Soviet historian M.M. Dementev, who spoke of battleships - dreadnoughts of the Sevastopol type as a “scared project” because of the “smearedness” of the armor of these ships, which did not provide protection from fire ( note - from armor-piercing shells) heavy guns was wrong because..." etc.. No, you chose to hide that you are a historical revisionist who does not put conclusions on the issue of Soviet historical science in the least, calling them simply "common false myth."

                Don’t be offended, I’m like a Chukchi, what I see is what I sing. :)

                I spoke about my and your attitude to the issue. I will continue on the merits of the subject of the dispute a little later. I will definitely state where the above percentage of the reserved freeboard of the “St. Andrew the First-Called” came from, with reference to the source.
                1. +1
                  30 March 2024 16: 34
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  It would be nice if you came out with an open visor, writing: “Soviet historian M.M. Dementev, who spoke of battleships - dreadnoughts of the Sevastopol type as a “scared project” because of the “smearedness” of the armor of these ships, which did not provide protection from fire ( note - from armor-piercing shells) heavy guns was wrong because..." etc.. No, you chose to hide that you are a historical revisionist who does not put conclusions on the issue of Soviet historical science in the least, calling them simply "common false myth."

                  Alexander, you have finally slipped into what seems like logical nonsense. What kind of "hidden revisionist"? I am writing to you Russians in plain English that the “project of the frightened” is a myth. And it was distributed not only by Dementiev, but also by many other authors. And I’ve been talking about this for years now... I don’t even remember how many. On “VO” I published the first article explaining that this is a myth back in 2014 https://topwar.ru/58854-linkory-tipa-sevastopol-uspeh-ili-proval-chast-2.html
                  It’s amazing what a hidden revisionist I am :)))) I secretly publish comments, secretly publish articles on a major website, I’m just a master of historical ninjutsu, nothing less.
                  And Soviet historiography not only can, but also needs to be revised, simply because a little more than 30 years have passed since those times and new archival data and documents have come into circulation.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  You stated that the difference in the percentage of the area of ​​the reserved side of the Sevastopol and Helgoland is “negligible”. You have to prove this “insignificance” with numbers in your hands. Do you want with absolute square meters, or with relative, percentages.

                  Firstly, I just proved my point.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The inter-deck space on the ship is approximately 2,75 m, the length of the section that is not reserved from Heligoland, but is reserved from Sevastopol is about 40 meters, the thickness of the armor is 75 mm, the total cubic capacity of the armor is 8,25 cubic meters. m. taking into account the specific weight of the armor is about 8 t/cubic, the total weight is 66 tons, from both sides - as much as 136 tons...

                  Secondly, it is YOU who postulate that Sevastopol is a project of the frightened, but do not provide any figures. You simply repeated someone else's statement, aka a talking bird, and that's all. You do not explain what side area must be armored for a ship to be considered armored primarily against high-explosive shells, and you do not provide figures for the area of ​​​​Sevastopol in comparison with other battleships.
                  You just blurted out and demand from me a refutation in numbers :)))))
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I will definitely state where the above percentage of the reserved freeboard of the “St. Andrew the First-Called” came from, with reference to the source.

                  And I, perhaps, will accuse you of hidden revisionism. Well, you need to argue with Melnikov himself as best you can laughing
              4. 0
                30 March 2024 20: 40
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                We count. The inter-deck space on the ship is approximately 2,75 m, the length of the section that is not reserved from Heligoland, but is reserved from Sevastopol is about 40 meters, the thickness of the armor is 75 mm, the total cubic capacity of the armor is 8,25 cubic meters. m. taking into account the specific weight of the armor is about 8 t/cubic, the total weight is 66 tons, from both sides - as much as 136 tons...

                I will provide a color diagram illustrating the vertical armor of the Heligoland.

                On it, too, don’t you see the difference in the protection area with “Sevastopol”?

                Adults stop believing in miracles. If one ship had armor and artillery weapons with turrets had a mass of ~11700 tons, and the other had a mass of ~11000 tons. Moreover, the first ship has a main belt of 300 mm (the second belt is 235 mm), the foreheads of the towers are 300 mm, the thickest parts of the barbettes are 300 mm (270 mm), and the second ship has a main belt of 225 mm, the foreheads of the towers are 203 mm, the thickest parts of them barbettes are 152 mm, then there is nothing miraculous in this. It’s just that the second ship has almost the same mass of vertical armor protection “spread” over a much larger percentage of the freeboard area. Taking into account the 181,2 meter long "Sevastopol" with the 167,2 meter length of the "Helgoland", the "Sevastopol" has not only a much larger percentage of the freeboard area reserved, but also in absolute terms, square meters, the freeboard is significantly larger and the area of ​​its reservation much more.

                And yes, what you calculated from the bow perpendicular to the bow tower barbette, and from the bow tower barbette to the stern perpendicular, is not about 40 meters, but ~69 meters. But the side of the hull between the upper and battery decks on the Helgoland was not protected by any side armor, only “patches” of armor for individual casemates of 14 150 mm guns.

                Sevastopol's GBP has a much larger area than any modern dreadnought. Then I would also remind you that the Sevastopol power plant weighed much more than the German ones, but this is absolutely higher mathematics for you...

                At Sevastopol, from the leading edge of the bow tower barbette to the trailing edge of the aft tower barbette is ~116 meters. The Helgoland has ~96 meters from the leading edge of the bow tower barbette to the trailing edge of the aft tower barbette. And with this difference of ~20 meters in the required length of the thickest part of the main armor belt, will you justify that the Sevastopol’s 300 mm main belt plus 235 mm second belt was replaced by one GBP with a maximum thickness of 225 mm and a total height of 5,06 meters?

                The Sevastopol power plant was ~1460 tons more massive. At the same time, the Sevastopols had savings in hull weight compared to the Heligolands by ~450 tons, armor weight by 580 tons, artillery weight with turrets and ammunition ~200 tons, supply and crew weight of at least 500 tons and normal reserve weight ~125 tons of fuel, and the total load for these items is at least 1850 tons. At the same time, "Sevastopol" also had a 1245-ton displacement reserve. Surely it was normal to book at least the towers and barbettes? Tell us why in your opinion not.

                I tell you Russians in plain English, YES, RUSSIAN DAEDNOUTS SEVASTOPOL ARE UNARMORIZED, BUT THE REASONS FOR THIS ARE NOT WHAT YOU THINK.

                I mean, not the reasons given by the Soviet historian of shipbuilding and navy M.M. Dementyev and quoted in his book the Soviet and Russian historian of shipbuilding and navy R.M. Melnikov?

                One cannot simply say that these historians propagated a “false myth” on this issue. You can say this to my anonymous address without evidence. Having made a similar statement against M.M. Dementyev and R.M. Melnikov You must argue, based on sources, to prove that the deceased masters were wrong, and of course, thoroughly reveal “other reasons”.

                I gave the weight load figures above. Well, it doesn’t turn out that there was no way to properly book towers and barbettes on the Sevastopol. There was such an opportunity. And this opportunity began to be realized already on the dreadnoughts of the "Empress Maria" type, having finally designed adequate protection for the towers and barbettes on the still unfinished fourth Black Sea dreadnought "Emperor Nicholas I".

                Will you show that the towers and barbettes designed for the “Emperor Nicholas I” could not fit on the “Sevastopol”, that the displacement reserve adopted when designing the “Sevastopol” was not enough for this? No?

                Of course not. Nothing would have happened, because, unlike British LKRs, Russian dreadnoughts had much more sophisticated mechanisms for supplying and storing ammunition.
                If you had studied history and not fantasized about it, then you would have known that both the Germans and the British had barbettes, but the Germans were saved by chance at Dogger Bank, and then they made design changes. And the German ships did not explode, despite the barbettes being penetrated

                The German ships did not explode. Their main battery towers and cellars burned out, but did not explode. But the powder magazine at the Empress Maria LC first caught fire and exploded a couple of minutes later. Do you really want to discuss this?
                1. +1
                  30 March 2024 23: 13
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I will provide a color diagram illustrating the vertical armor of the Heligoland.

                  Sit down, deuce. The “scheme” is incorrect, since it “forgot” the solid casemate and contradicts the reservation diagram you attached (which, on the contrary, is correct).
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  On it, too, don’t you see the difference in the protection area with “Sevastopol”?

                  I see your complete illiteracy.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  And yes, what you calculated from the bow perpendicular to the bow tower barbette, and from the bow tower barbette to the stern perpendicular, is not about 40 meters, but ~69 meters.

                  We are learning to read - I only counted in the bow, because Sevastopol also has no armor in the stern. And I thought correctly. Therefore, the DIFFERENCE between battleships is exactly 40 meters.
                  Alexandra, why are you writing to me anyway? At Sevastopol, the stern is “naked” between the upper and middle decks. Heligoland has a “bare” stern and bow. Should I count the stern and bow as the difference? Does this word - logic - mean anything to you at all?
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  But the side of the hull between the upper and battery decks on the Helgoland was not protected by any side armor, only “patches” of armor for individual casemates of 14 150 mm guns.

                  WHAT?!!!
                  The armor of the casemate with cutouts for gun ports (embrasures) and 80-mm pieces of armor bent to provide firing sectors ran along the sides from the stern to the bow of the 305-mm gun turrets. In the area of ​​41-91st shp. at a length of 60 m, the casemate was armored by extending the main armor belt and casemate armor to the upper deck, also with 170 mm thick armor plates; behind the 41st and ahead of the 91st. installed obliquely traverse armored bulkheads (the casemate was armored at an angle), approaching the barbettes of the 305-mm gun turrets located along the DP. The armored bulkheads installed at an angle (passing obliquely abeam) on each side had doors of the same thickness as the bulkhead. The wooden jacket and the method of fastening the casemate armor were exactly the same as that of the main armor belt. (Muzhenikov)
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I gave the weight load figures above. Well, it doesn’t turn out that there was no way to properly book towers and barbettes on the Sevastopol.

                  Because you undertake to talk about things about which you have not the slightest idea. Do you want to have? Take a ruler, drawings, measure the volume of vertical armor of ships. Then you will understand something. And before you look at the numbers on weight sheets, take the trouble to study the differences in accounting for armor weights and the distribution of other weights in different countries. And look at the real, actual weight distributions, and not the designed Sevastopol/actual East Frisian ones that you copy and paste here.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The German ships did not explode. Their main battery towers and cellars burned out, but did not explode. But the powder magazine at the Empress Maria LC first caught fire and exploded a couple of minutes later. Do you really want to discuss this?

                  Complete nonsense.
                  The German LKs DID NOT BURN OUT THE CELLARS. We learn materiel at least at Muzhenikov’s level
                  But the fire did not penetrate into the cellars and the charges, which were still in brass casings, did not explode. The cellars were flooded thanks to the courage of the bilge foreman Wilhelm Heidkamp, ​​who, with the threat of an explosion in the shell magazines, took hold of the red-hot steering wheels of the flood valves with his bare hands and turned them. At the same time, he burned his hands (the destroyer Z-14, laid down on December 1937, 21 in Kiel, was named after him).

                  That is why Seydlitz did not explode. And other German ships had an impact on the combat and reloading compartments, but not the cellars. But Maria had a fire in the cellars, which is why the battleship was doomed.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Having made a similar statement against M.M. Dementyev and R.M. Melnikov You must argue, based on sources, to prove that the deceased masters were wrong, and of course, thoroughly reveal “other reasons”

                  In this case, it is enough to CAREFULLY read the same Melnikov, Skvortsov, Vasiliev, etc.
                  1. -2
                    31 March 2024 10: 34
                    But Maria had a fire in the cellars, which is why the battleship was doomed.

                    Not because of this at all, but because of the incompetence of the relevant persons, officers and commander.
                    The battleship had no underwater holes from a fire in the cellars. However, it turned over.
                    1. +1
                      31 March 2024 13: 56
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Not because of this at all, but because of the incompetence of the relevant persons, officers and commander.

                      Read Vinogradov, enlighten yourself. He has everything.
                      1. -2
                        31 March 2024 16: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Not because of this at all, but because of the incompetence of the relevant persons, officers and commander.

                        Read Vinogradov, enlighten yourself. He has everything.

                        Only the ship's crew can turn a ship over without underwater holes. Neither you, nor even Vinogradov, ever dance against physics.
                        Therefore, study physics at your leisure so that you write less nonsense.
                      2. 0
                        April 1 2024 09: 20
                        That is, it was not possible to overpower Vinogradov. I'm not surprised - it's a whole 130 pages, you obviously can't do it.
                      3. +1
                        April 3 2024 10: 53
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, it was not possible to overpower Vinogradov. I'm not surprised - it's a whole 130 pages, you obviously can't do it.

                        You can’t possibly master the 8th grade physics textbook. Looks like there are too many pages.
                      4. 0
                        April 3 2024 11: 31
                        Yura27, if you read Vinogradov, then you would know that:
                        1) The initial explosion did not cause a bow trim - there was no flooding
                        2) The fire greatly threatened the cellars of the 2nd tower, so its cellars were heated under extreme conditions and at the risk of life. And if you had read Vinogradov, you would know that this was necessary and correct.
                        3) The trim on the bow appeared and began to increase sharply after the next explosion in the bow, which eyewitnesses compared in strength to the very first explosion. Vinogradov also talks about this, but it’s difficult for you to read.
                        4) On one of Vinogradov’s diagrams of the ship’s lifting, the destruction of the interior in the bow is noted, right up to the second main battery tower. And you would have seen her if you had read Vinogradov
                        From here, any person more or less familiar with physics will draw a simple conclusion. The trim and flooding arose due to the fact that the explosions broke the tightness of the bulkheads in the cellars of the 2nd tower, causing water from there to spread into the bow, where, naturally, after the explosion of the cellars, no sealed bulkheads survived. That is, the battleship sank nose down with the hull intact below the waterline, and there is no contradiction in this with the 8th grade physics textbook.
                        But you don’t know this, because you stopped in your development at the recommended textbook and don’t want to read anything else
                2. 0
                  31 March 2024 06: 15
                  The burning out of German cellars is some kind of miracle, generally speaking. No one had this. It was always the end for everyone. Maybe the fact is that the ammunition has already been shot down and there simply isn’t much left?
                  1. +1
                    31 March 2024 08: 17
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    The burning out of German cellars is some kind of miracle, generally speaking.

                    There are no miracles. The Germans' cellars didn't burn out :)))))
                    There is a tower. It consists of:
                    1) The fighting compartment is actually the tower itself
                    2) The reloading compartment, which is located in the barbette.
                    Well, this is how it turns out that ammunition is delivered from the shell and charging magazines to the barbette, where the lower lift delivers them to the reloading compartment, and from there they are sent by the upper lift to the combat compartment.
                    The Germans on the Seydlitz had a fire in the combat and reloading compartments of the turret, and due to the open doors it spread to the second turret. But they were saved from fire in the shell and charging magazines by urgent flooding.
                    The Germans realized that they were on the verge of disaster and altered the design of the towers approximately so that when the doors were opened when ammunition was supplied to the barbette from the cellars, the doors of the reloading compartment were closed, and when the passage to the reloading room was opened, the doors to the cellars were closed. And this helped them out in Jutland, because the fire did not reach the cellars. But they pierced the barbettes anyway.
                    So it was not the armor that saved the Germans, but the competent design of the turrets and feed mechanisms.
                    And here in Sevastopol and beyond, this system existed from the very beginning. Therefore, despite a number of cases of fires in the combat or reloading compartments, there were no detonations
                    1. +1
                      April 1 2024 17: 01
                      That's what we're talking about. That there was no mythical incredible resilience in burning cellars in front of other fleets. Neither before nor after. Burning gunpowder in a confined space will still cause the case to rupture. There are simply different circumstances of this combustion.
  10. -1
    29 March 2024 21: 38
    Makarov - with all due respect to him - yes, and empty space - Treasure - they can cite anything - without citing the source - where the data was taken from - maybe it just seems like that to them or it’s just a hangover - it’s a fantasy tongue
  11. +3
    31 March 2024 10: 27
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    Thank you very much for the important information about K Harvey armor for me.

    The final answer about the strength of the armor of "Peresvet" and "Oslyabi" could be given by acceptance tests of the armor by firing

    As part of the work on the destruction of the Oslyabi, I got to the results of testing the armor of the upper belt. And it turned out that it was no coincidence that the Japanese managed to break through it at least 2 times.

    I will supplement the armor ratio table you provided with a table from the “Instructions for battery commanders of the battleship Peresvet” 1903
    1. +2
      31 March 2024 13: 55
      Good afternoon, Alexey!
      Quote: rytik32
      Thank you very much for the important information about K Harvey armor for me.

      Always happy to help you. But please note that while we are talking about, so to speak, the “original Harvey”, when the Carnegies learned to forge it after cementation, its durability increased
      Quote: rytik32
      I will supplement the armor ratio table you provided with a table from the “Instructions for battery commanders of the battleship Peresvet” 1903

      Thank you very much! Offhand I took the ratio for 20 cables on a 10-inch projectile - the same 40,4%, almost one-to-one.
    2. 0
      April 1 2024 10: 12
      By the way, the “K” coefficient for Krupp armor according to this plate is about 2
  12. 0
    April 2 2024 13: 35
    What does Varyag have to do with it and what could possibly help him in the position in which his idiotic policy put him? The Varyag was ruined not by the “wrong” steel, but by the obviously losing situation in which he found himself. Perhaps, in part, the “feat” of going out under execution without hitting the enemy is quite controversial.