The first tests of cemented armor in the Russian Empire and the protection of squadron battleships of the Poltava type

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The first tests of cemented armor in the Russian Empire and the protection of squadron battleships of the Poltava type

В previous article I presented to the respected reader test data on large-caliber projectiles equipped with Makarov tips, and some conclusions about domestically produced Krupp armor. Well, it's time to return to Harvey's armor.

About different types of armor


It is well known that in the second half of the 19th century, the protection of warships progressed at an extremely high speed for those years. It all started with iron armor, but soon it was replaced by steel-iron armor, the fundamental difference of which is directly implied by the name. Steel-iron was followed by steel and steel-nickel, and then the era of cemented armor arrived.

As you know, armor can be relatively soft, but at the same time tough: using certain hardening methods you can give it greater strength, but at the same time it becomes more fragile. The essence of cemented armor was that only the surface layer of the armor plate facing the projectile was hardened, followed by a viscous layer: that is why cemented armor was also called surface-hardened. Moreover, in the 127th and early XNUMXth centuries, only armor with a thickness of XNUMX mm and higher could be cemented; armor plates of smaller thickness were learned to be cemented later.

There were several methods for cementing armor, the most famous of them being the Harvey and Krupp methods, but there were others that were not widely used and therefore little known. Harvey's armor was first tested on November 14, 1891 and almost immediately replaced uncemented armor plates. But in 1893 the German weapons The Krupp plant developed an even more advanced technology for the production of armor, which is why the age of “Harvey” plates was short-lived. Soon all the world's fleets switched to Krupp armor, which for a long time became the standard for the quality of protection of warships.

Armored leapfrog


Let us remember how the most modern battleships that participated in the Russo-Japanese War defended themselves.

The main armor belts of "Petropavlovsk", "Sevastopol" and "Poltava" were formed from steel-nickel, "Harvey" and "crushed" armor plates, respectively, the sides of "Peresvet" and "Oslyabi" carried Harvey's armor. "Pobeda", "Retvizan", "Tsesarevich" and battleships of the "Borodino" type were protected by Krupp armor. As for their Japanese counterparts, of the six Japanese battleships that formed the basis of the United fleet, five carried armor cemented using the Harvey method and only “Mikasa” - Krupp.

Therefore, if an amateur stories If he wants to compare the security of the above-mentioned battleships, he will need to understand how the durability of the above types of armor compares. Take, for example, the armor of Krupp and Harvey - at first glance there is nothing complicated about it. Thus, according to the respected S. Balakin (“Triumphs of Tsushima”), the resistance of the Mikasa’s armor was 16–20% higher than that of its predecessor battleships. Such an assessment by a respected author correlates well with other publicly available data on the relationship between the durability of Krupp and Harvey armor.

But what do you want to do with other estimates made both upward and downward?



For example, in American publications (an article by Cleland Davis in the United States Naval Institute magazine for 1897), based on tests, it is indicated that the quality of the American-made garvey plate from the Carnegie plant turned out to be as good as that of the Krupp armor plate. And vice versa, Stepan Osipovich Makarov in his work “Battleships or armorless ships” indicates that Harvey’s armor with a thickness of 8,2 dm and 13,5 dm inches corresponds only to 6-dm and 10-dm Krupp armor, that is, the difference in durability is - 35–36,7%.

Even more interesting data is provided by N. L. Klado in the article “Artillery and Armor,” published in the work “Military Fleets and Naval Reference Book for 1906.” According to N. L. Klado, the durability of Krupp armor is 41,3% higher than Harvey’s!

Well, let's try to make sense of all this.

First domestic experiments


It must be said that in Russia they quite timely tracked both the displacement of the good old iron and steel-iron armor plates by steel-nickel and steel, and the appearance of “surface-hardened” armor. As mentioned above, the first tests of Harvey's armor took place at the end of 1891, and a year later, in November-December 1892, firing tests of the armor of the Ch. Kammel", "J. Brown", "Saint-Chamond" and "Vickers". At the same time, “Ch. Cammel" and "Saint-Chamon" presented "only a further development of the direction in which the plates had been improved before," but two other companies brought cemented armor to the competition. "J. Brown proposed cementation using the Tresider method, while Vickers proposed cementation using the Harvey method.

All armor plates were 10 inches thick, and the test consisted of firing them with 152-mm shells from the Putilov plant. Plates "Ch. Kammel" and "J. Brown" collapsed during testing, but "Saint-Chamon" (steel-nickel) and "Vickers" (Harvey) did not. Both slabs were not pierced and did not have through cracks, but the Vickers slab, thanks to cementation, turned out to be almost undamaged in comparison with Saint-Chamon. Then two more shots were fired at the Vickers, this time from a 229-mm gun: here the plate had already cracked through, but the shells also broke.

From “Appendix I to the MTK Artillery Report for 1895” it is known that the Vickers plate was fired with 152-mm shells weighing 95 pounds, that is, 38,9 kg, with a speed on the armor of 2 ft/sec (180 m/sec). There was no deviation from the normal; they fired so that the trajectory of the projectile passed strictly perpendicular to the surface of the slab. As I said earlier, this was the norm for testing armor plates in Russia in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

If the slab had been penetrated at the limit by a six-inch shell, then, according to de Marre's formula, its resistance coefficient "K" would have been 1. But this coefficient was probably much higher, since the slab received almost no damage. The 577 mm rounds were fired at an armor velocity of 229 ft/sec (1 m/sec) and weighed 655 lb or 504,5 kg.

The reference books indicate a slightly higher weight of shells for this weapon, namely 188,4 kg, but this is the weight of fully loaded ammunition, equipped with an explosive and a fuse. And when testing armor in those years, they fired unloaded shells, which, obviously, were not brought to the standard weight. For those years, this was a completely normal practice; this was done both here and, as will be seen later, abroad.

Recalculation according to de Marr shows that if 229 mm shells had penetrated the armor, then “K” would have been equal to 1, but they did not penetrate the armor. It can be said that the slab from the Vickers plant had an even greater “K” than 901, but it should be borne in mind that the responsible MTC officials considered that: “a 1-inch projectile ... although it is delayed, it causes such serious damage to the slab that it can no longer be considered a sufficiently reliable cover for the side.”

Thus, at least with certain stretches, we can assume that the Vickers armor plate had “K” = 1 without the condition of the projectile passing through the armor as a whole.

According to the test results, the Vickers armor, of course, won. But... which one?

Harvey – or “Harvey-Nickel”?


I have come across a lot of speculation on this topic on the Internet, but the question is, in fact, far from idle. The fact is that the addition of nickel significantly improved the durability of the armor. For example, according to S. O. Makarov, it turned out that the steel-nickel plate was stronger than ordinary steel, depending on the thickness of the armor plates being compared, by 7,8–8,6%. At the same time, both steel with and without a nickel additive could be subjected to carburization using the Harvey method; of course, with the same thickness, the latter would be less resistant.

What kind of armor was presented by Vickers?

V.I. Kolchak (the father of that same Kolchak), in his work “The History of the Obukhov Steel Plant in Connection with the Progress of Artillery Technology,” describing the tests of 1892, directly states: “Nickel was introduced into the steel of all plates, and in some, in addition , and chrome,” that is, in relation to the Vickers plate we are talking about “Harvey-nickel” armor.

Testing the protection of Poltava-class battleships


The protection of these ships is unique for a number of reasons.

Firstly, as mentioned above, each of them received belt armor that was different from the other two battleships. The sides of the Petropavlovsk were protected by steel-nickel armor, the Sevastopol received garvey plates, and the luckiest of all was the Poltava, which received a Krupp armor belt.

Secondly, all the waist armor of these ships was ordered abroad. For Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol, 605 tons and 550 tons, respectively, were purchased from Bethlehem Iron Company (USA), and Poltava received 764 tons of armor from the Krupp plant. Of course, these supplies did not cover the full needs of battleships, which ranged from 2 tons to 800 tons, including uncemented - deck, etc.

According to the calculations of the respected S.V. Suliga, the Krupp armor of the Poltava was enough for the armor belt, the walls of the towers and barbettes of the main battery, while the rest of the armor was provided by the Izhora and Obukhov factories, which had mastered the production of steel-nickel armor. It is quite obvious that the Russian armor industry did not have sufficient productivity to fully supply the same “Petropavlovsk” with its products.

Thus, the armor of the Poltava-class battleships was a “hodgepodge”, when part of the armor was completed with foreign supplies, and part was produced independently.

And here another interesting question arises.

It is known that Russian armor less than 127 mm for battleships of the Poltava type could not be cemented - they did not yet know how to produce it. But were domestic armor plates with a thickness of over 127 mm, which were supplied by Russian factories in varying quantities, cemented for all three ships of this series?

There are different opinions on this issue.

As S.V. Suliga writes, “almost all reference publications of that time indicate that these battleships had Harvey armor (sometimes the clarification follows - “mostly”),” but the respected historian himself believes that it was not Harvey armor that was supplied, but steel-nickel slabs

I have not found a source that would directly indicate that the Sevastopol-class battleships received domestic steel-nickel armor, but indirect data fully confirms this conclusion of S.V. Suliga. The fact is that initially armor for the fleet was made by the Izhora plant, also called Kolpinsky, because it was located in Kolpino, at the mouth of the Izhora River, but its capacity did not at all correspond to the pace of fleet construction.

And then the “armor revolution” arrived just in time with the transition from iron and steel to more advanced types of armor. Then it was decided to build a new production facility at the Obukhov plant and organize the production of thick slabs of vertical protection for ships, that is, the most complex type of armor. Other protection (armored deck, bevels, etc.) continued to be produced by the Izhora plant, since it had mastered this production well and coped with it.

But the production cycle of surface-hardened armor required special cementation furnaces, in which the plates were hardened for 15 to 20 days, not counting subsequent firing. It is quite obvious that a lot of such stoves were required, but they, according to the respected S. E. Vinogradov, were built only by 1896. Accordingly, it should be assumed that until this time the Obukhov plant could only produce single copies of cemented armor.

"Petropavlovsk" - steelnickel



Tests of the American 406-mm armor "Petropavlovsk" took place on July 1, 1895. The armor plate was installed on a wooden frame, after which they fired armor-piercing shells at it from a 229 mm/30 gun (as in Suliga, but most likely we are talking about a 229 mm/35 gun model 1877). In this case, the trajectory of the projectile was perpendicular to the plate, so there was no deviation from the normal. Several shots were fired, and the speed of the projectile gradually increased until the projectile pierced the armor, getting stuck in the frame, which was considered the limit of resistance of the armor plate. The shells were not equipped with armor-piercing tips.

The steel-nickel plate was pierced by the third shot - a 229-mm projectile, which, according to S.V. Suliga, weighed 179 kg.

Here lies a difficult to explain error.

The fact is that a respected historian writes verbatim: “the weight of the projectile is 446,25 Russian pounds, i.e. 179 kg,” while a Russian pound is 0,409512 kg, and 446,25 Russian pounds are equal to 182,7 kg.

The attentive reader, undoubtedly, noticed that the Vickers plate, according to “Addendum I to the MTK report on artillery for 1895,” was fired with a lighter projectile, weighing 181,4 kg. But a deviation of 1,3 kg is quite normal: as you know, the actual weight of a projectile of one design is not a constant and may deviate slightly from the standard. But during armor testing, the actual weight was recorded, that is, each shell was weighed before use.

So, a 229-mm 182,7-kg projectile penetrated a 406-mm plate at a projectile speed of 531 m/sec, which, according to testers, corresponded to the resistance of 546-mm iron armor. Consequently, steel-nickel turned out to be 1,345 times stronger than iron. Having recalculated the result using the formula of Jacob de Marre, we obtain the coefficient “K” = 1. Since from the explanations of S.V. Suliga it turns out that the projectile got stuck in the frame after breaking through the armor, this “K” apparently corresponds to the “gray” a zone in which the probabilities of a projectile passing through the armor as a whole or in broken form are close.

"Sevastopol" - Harvey



A steel-nickel (according to S.V. Suliga) slab with a thickness of 368 mm, cemented using the Harvey method, was tested on November 23, 1895. 6 shots were fired at it: three 229 mm and the same number of 152 mm, the latter being fired from the newest Kane cannon. At the same time, the six-inch gun fired with a deviation from the normal of 5 degrees. Not a single shell penetrated the armor, so to determine the resistance, a 229-mm shell was fired, which had a weight (according to S.V. Suliga) of 178 kg at a speed of 588 m/sec, which penetrated the deepest into the plate. Adjusting for the error described above, we should expect that the weight of the projectile was 181,7 kg.

Since “clean penetration” did not take place, the resistance of the plate was determined by calculation, equating the resistance of 368 mm Harvey armor to 635 mm iron. In other words, the harvey armor of the battleship “Sevastopol” turned out to be 1,726 times stronger than the iron armor and 1,283 times better than the steel-nickel armor of the “Petropavlovsk”. In this case, recalculation using the de Marre formula will give “K” = 1.

Noteworthy is the fact that substituting into the de Marre formula the values ​​of armor thickness/projectile weight/velocity on 368 mm armor; 181,7 kg and 588 m/sec, respectively, give a very close value (K = 1), that is, according to testers, the projectile was literally “a hair's breadth” from breaking through the armor, it almost pierced it. Of course, the resulting value “K” = 710 corresponds to a projectile that crashed against the armor rather than passing through it as a whole.

"Poltava" - Krupp



Now let’s look at the results of firing at Krupp’s armor, which was used to defend the Poltava.

There are also some contradictions here, however, easily resolved.

From the “Report” on the tests referred to by S.V. Suliga, it turns out that on October 28, 1896, they fired at a 254-mm plate from a 203-mm gun, but which one exactly (the old 35-caliber or the new 45-caliber) - not said. At the same time, the document states that the projectile weighed 48,12 kg, but this is an obvious mistake, which was pointed out by S.V. Suliga: there was no ammunition of this weight for eight-inch artillery systems in Russia. The speed upon impact with the slab was 758 m/sec.

In "Appendix I to the MTK Artillery Report for 1895" (published later than this date, so it is not surprising that it mentions the tests of 1896) states that a 10-mm projectile weighing 203 Russian pounds was fired at a 210,25-inch Krupp plate, which would be 86,1 kg. Unfortunately, it does not directly indicate that we are talking about testing armor for Poltava, but, on the other hand, the similarity of the parameters and testing time speaks for itself.

The shell broke, but pierced the plate: “K”, according to de Marr, amounted to 2, which, in general, is slightly below the limit of the standard resistance of domestically produced Krupp armor for 155-mm shells (“K” 203–2), but the deviation is negligible.

"Poltava" - Russian steel nickel


V.I. Kolchak describes the tests of the 10-inch thick armor plate of the Obukhov plant, manufactured for the battleship Poltava. As mentioned above, although direct evidence of this was not found, this slab, according to S.V. Suliga, was uncemented steel-nickel. It was hit by 5 shots of 152 mm shells weighing 97 pounds (39,73 kg) with a speed on the armor of 2 feet or 140 meters per second. The maximum that the shells could penetrate was 652,3 inches into the slab. If the shells had penetrated the armor to the limit, then its “K” would have been equal to 8, but it is obvious that it turned out to be significantly higher.

Assuming that 203 mm is the maximum armor penetration with such projectile parameters, we get “K” = 1. Most likely, the real durability of a domestically produced steel-nickel plate was in the range of these values.

But then it turns out that it turned out to be not only stronger than the American steel-nickel plate, but was also close in durability to the US garvey plate.

It is also worth noting the good quality of Russian steel shells - not having the power to penetrate the armor plate, they bounced off it as a whole, without breaking or even having cracks.

Conclusions


There will be almost none for now.

Let us note that, for unknown reasons, the Naval Ministry accepted into the treasury the garvey armor of the American Bethlehem Iron Company, which was inferior to the previously tested Vickers, and the steel-nickel armor of the same company, which was inferior to similar armor made domestically.

There could be several reasons for this.

I have already demonstrated earlierthat the durability of the domestic Krupp armor was not constant and varied over significant ranges. So, for example, if the standard values ​​of “K” for 12-dm shells for Krupp armor of the same thickness were 2–100, then other armor plates could reach “K” = 2, which corresponded to an increase in durability by 200% (I remind you that the durability of the slab does not increase in direct proportion to the “K” coefficient). Accordingly, it should be expected that similar vibrations are also characteristic of other types of armor, including Harvey.

Therefore, it can be assumed that the production processes of the USA, England and Russia for the production of steel-nickel and Harvey armor were similar, but the cards fell so that the products of Vickers and Obukhov plant showed the best (or close to them) values, and Bethlehem Iron Company » – minimal. But it is still extremely strange that American products turned out to be an outsider in relation to both English and Russian armor - this suggests that the quality of the Bethlehem Iron Company armor was still not up to par.

In any case, we have to state the fact that the domestic battleships Sevastopol and Petropavlovsk received armored belts that were far from being of the best possible quality. But it is too early to draw any far-reaching conclusions about the comparative strength of armor based on all of the above.

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  1. -1
    21 March 2024 05: 04
    The article is good, historical, and history should always be honored. But modern times have shown that the quality of armor gives little value on the battlefield. Nowadays, protection against drones, both airborne and waterborne, is much more important. And the protection of those same ships should be based on means of combating these devices. No amount of armor can save you from a kamikaze boat with a ton of explosives on board... In my opinion, the fight against drones in the near future should be based on electronic warfare equipment and countermeasures drones. This is what is already happening during the war in Ukraine.
    1. 0
      22 March 2024 11: 49
      Wow, you are a philosopher, you managed to create such a comment for the article laughing
  2. +9
    21 March 2024 05: 29
    I never thought that Poltava, Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol had reservations of different technological processes. Live and learn. Thanks Andrey!
    1. +6
      21 March 2024 11: 21
      So at “Peresvetychi” there was the same leapfrog. The funny thing is that the Oslyabya, which was built last, had Harvey armor, and the second in the Pobeda series of ballistic missiles had Krupp armor. The Baltic Plant managed to hurry up and not only delivered two Peresetychs while the government was building one, but also changed the type of armor on the second of its orders. smile
    2. -2
      22 March 2024 12: 04
      Well, there’s no need to think about it, it’s enough to just know
  3. +4
    21 March 2024 06: 25
    In metal science, the author gets a big, fat “D”! Cementation is not a “special hardening method”, but the saturation of the surface layer of steel with carbon! and many, many other “blunders”!
    1. +5
      21 March 2024 13: 10
      Well, you're already finding fault. Such subtle features are only for metallurgists. For the rest, the “Harvey method”, named after the British engineer and metallurgist Harvey, is enough
      1. +1
        21 March 2024 14: 04
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Such subtle features are only for metallurgists

        Well, it’s not doctors of philosophy and sociology who come to this thread...
        1. +1
          21 March 2024 20: 20
          Well, I’m neither a PhD nor a metallurgist. Therefore, it is enough for me to know the thickness of the armor and the method of making the armor. The rest I can figure out on my own.
      2. 0
        25 March 2024 17: 25
        But the production cycle of surface-hardened armor required special cementation furnaces, in which the plates were hardened for 15 to 20 days, not counting subsequent firing.


        Just to let readers know.

        In cementation furnaces, armor plates were subjected to cementation - a chemical-thermal procedure for saturating the front layer of the armor plate with carbon. Hardening is a purely thermal procedure. Plates that have undergone cementation are heterogeneous armor. Plates with hardening on the front side are homogeneous (having a uniform chemical composition over the entire cross-section of the slab) armor.

        "Firing" should be read as "annealing." Heat treatment operations for armor plates generally consisted of the following stages: hardening, tempering, normalization, annealing. At the same time, after casting into the mold, the armor plate was, of course, subjected to mechanical treatment, and the cemented armor plate was also subjected to chemical-thermal treatment.

        Annealing is a heat treatment operation consisting of heating the steel, holding it at a given temperature and then slowly cooling it along with the furnace. As a result of annealing, a stable structure is formed, free from residual stresses. Annealing is one of the most important mass heat treatment operations of steel.
        1. +1
          25 March 2024 19: 20
          This is certainly interesting and informative, but why does the average naval history buff need such details? If anyone is interested, you can find all these processes on the Internet and read about them. But I don’t think there will be many people willing. Unless someone with a “bias” in metallurgy, as a rule, they know these processes even better than what is written on the Internet and even in practice.
          1. 0
            26 March 2024 00: 41
            Errors have crept into the text of the above short quotation from the article: both factual and those that can be considered spelling errors.

            Factual. In carburization furnaces, carburization was carried out, and NOT hardening of armor plates. Hardening an armor plate (from the front side) is also its surface hardening. Cemented armor plates were also subjected to hardening.

            In general, there are three main methods of surface hardening of steel: surface hardening, chemical-thermal treatment (in particular, carburization by the Harvey method or the Krupp method), hardening by surface plastic deformation.

            During heat treatment, steel is annealed rather than “fired.” Heat treatment of steel is divided into several types. In particular, these are: hardening, annealing, normalization, tempering.

            I hope you don’t get the feeling that I briefly recounted the textbook on materials science for students of mechanical engineering specialties. The author of the article could not have mentioned the details of metalworking of armor plates. But once I mentioned it, mistakes hurt the eyes of those who have encountered such an interdisciplinary branch of science as materials science. Not everyone in the post-Soviet era was trained to be a lawyer, economist, or expert on business processes.
    2. +5
      21 March 2024 13: 16
      Quote: ved_med12
      Cementation is not a "special hardening method"

      "After cementation of the product subjected to heat treatment, leading to the formation of a martensitic phase in the surface layer of the product (quenching for martensite) followed by tempering to relieve internal stresses."
      The author is guilty of technical nihilism, but is slowly correcting himself. In his defense, I will say that the text can be complicated indefinitely and unreadable, but this is not an article for metallurgists... feel
      1. +7
        21 March 2024 17: 41
        In his defense, I will say that the text can be complicated to the point of infinity and unreadability, but this is not an article for metallurgists...

        So this is the essence of the author being read - giving information in such a way that the average reader would understand the essence of what is being described. Of course, you can read a couple of chapters of a highly specialized metallurgist’s reference book or something else, where everything will be on metal plating with all the nuances, formulas, graphs, but who will read it? And at the same time, the author does not slide into boulevardism. That's why they read it request For example, I like feel And yes, Andrei Nikolaevich is working on his mistakes. We are all people, not robots
        1. -2
          21 March 2024 17: 49
          Quote: Rurikovich
          working on bugs.

          there is progress - for example, give masses in pounds and kg, but “the projectile had a weight of 48,12 kg," with an accuracy of up to 10g... request
          at the same time, he quite reasonably writes: “for 203-mm shells (“K” 2–188), but deviation is negligibleO."
  4. +1
    21 March 2024 06: 35
    I remember from a materials science course that carburization is the saturation of the surface of a metal with carbon to give it the necessary hardness. Why were the sheets only cemented and not completely hardened? I am not a metal heat treatment technologist, but for some reason it seems to me that the hardening process would be much simpler than dealing with only one surface. And the different hardness of the same sheet will not in any way affect its strength and resistance to different forces acting on it, for example, loads during the passage of a ship or a direct hit from a projectile? In addition, armor plates probably not only protect the ship from being hit by a projectile, but also serve as a strength component for the overall design
    1. +2
      21 March 2024 06: 57
      Why were the sheets only cemented and not completely hardened?

      First they cemented it, and then the cemented side was hardened.
      1. -1
        21 March 2024 07: 14
        Quote: Jura 27
        First they cemented it, and then the cemented side was hardened
        How can a cemented surface be hardened? After all, when heated, uncemented metal will begin to harden, and already cemented metal, on the contrary, will begin to temper. wink
        1. +2
          21 March 2024 10: 55
          Steel with a certain carbon content can be hardened. More precisely, starting from approximately 0,5% (or even 0,65%, like spring parts made of 65G, which reenactors love to use in knives and swords) and more carbon, it makes sense to harden them. That is why the slabs were first saturated with carbon. Hardening is, roughly speaking, the process of changing the structure of a material by changing the configuration of the arrangement of iron carbides dissolved in iron (the same Fe3C cementite). And if there is little/no carbon in the stove or part of it, then you can heat it as you like, the iron will not be hardened.
          1. 0
            21 March 2024 11: 04
            Quote: CouchExpert
            That's why the slabs were first saturated with carbon
            Why saturate the plate with carbon and spend energy and time on this, if for this purpose there are already grades of steel that contain enough carbon for further heat treatment?
            1. +2
              21 March 2024 11: 09
              As has already been described below, you need a slab with a hardness gradient, and not one with the same properties throughout its entire thickness. It is easier to technologically introduce carbon where it is needed than to burn it out of steel where it is not needed. Something like this.
              1. 0
                21 March 2024 11: 12
                Quote: CouchExpert
                As has already been described below, you need a slab with a hardness gradient, and not one with the same properties throughout its entire thickness
                I also wrote, but wouldn’t there be a weak zone at the boundaries of the hardness difference?
                1. +2
                  21 March 2024 11: 20
                  Usually, after hardening, tempering follows, which should relieve all internal stresses and overcome such phenomena (and there is no direct sharp drop, carbon tries to take up free space in the lattice and itself moves from the surface into the depths). I don’t know how it is with healthy ship plates, but it works great on small forged products if all technological stages of heat treatment (hardening/tempering/normalization) are selected correctly.
                  1. +1
                    21 March 2024 11: 24
                    Quote: CouchExpert
                    Tempering is usually followed by tempering
                    I know what a vacation is. Why harden cemented steel? wink
                    1. +1
                      21 March 2024 11: 35
                      Because that's why it was cemented wink . Not cemented - not hardened! And they are hardened in order to increase strength and, therefore, projectile resistance, which will either increase durability with equal thickness of the plates, or allow a reduction in thickness while maintaining the required durability.
                      bully
                      1. 0
                        21 March 2024 13: 20
                        Quote: CouchExpert
                        And they are hardened in order to increase strength
                        I know why steel is hardened wink wink wink
                      2. +4
                        21 March 2024 14: 00
                        Quote: Dutchman Michel
                        I know why steel is hardened

                        Hello, Misha! This thread reminds me of a conversation between a librarian and a tractor driver about issues of thermodynamics or nuclear physics...
                      3. +4
                        21 March 2024 17: 58
                        A description of the production of surface-hardened armor plates using the Krupp method is available in Evers’ “Military Shipbuilding”...
                      4. +1
                        21 March 2024 18: 40
                        Quote: Luminman
                        This thread reminds me of a conversation between a librarian and a tractor driver about issues of thermodynamics or nuclear physics...
                        Calibrating the copper washer wink wink wink
            2. +1
              22 March 2024 17: 26
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              Quote: CouchExpert
              That's why the slabs were first saturated with carbon
              Why saturate the plate with carbon and spend energy and time on this, if for this purpose there are already grades of steel that contain enough carbon for further heat treatment?

              High-carbon steels are brittle relative to impact loads, which is why heterogeneous armor was invented.
              The Germans had tank armor made of relatively high-carbon steels; as long as the necessary additives were available, the quality of the armor was excellent.
          2. 0
            21 March 2024 13: 12
            65 G is certainly a good steel for knives. But there are better ones made of semi-stainless steel - x12MF.
        2. 0
          21 March 2024 16: 44
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Quote: Jura 27
          First they cemented it, and then the cemented side was hardened
          How can a cemented surface be hardened? After all, when heated, uncemented metal will begin to harden, and already cemented metal, on the contrary, will begin to temper. wink

          The back surface of the stove was protected from heat.
    2. +5
      21 March 2024 07: 17
      At that time, vertical armor was hung on supporting structures and was practically not involved in the tensile/compressive operation of the hull. Deck protection certainly increased the rigidity of the longitudinal connections, but was not taken into account in the calculations due to the fact that small-sized slabs have a purely local effect. In connection with the transition to a longitudinal scheme for the formation of the hull of new dreadnoughts and the transition to larger sizes of armor sheets, I.G. Bubnov introduced the rigidity of deck and bulkhead plates into the calculation of connections. Therefore, the hulls of our dreadnoughts turned out to be lighter as a percentage of the so-called. normal displacement than even the British and Germans. Yuzuru Hiraga finally introduced all armor into strength calculations in 1922 while creating the experimental cruiser Yubari. At the same time, the cutting of armor sheets was subordinated to the task of strengthening the connections of the ship.
      As for the hardening of armor, an increase in hardness always leads to an increase in fragility and, while perfectly resisting the impact of a projectile like a monolith, such armor cannot withstand the overvoltage of deflection deformation from an impulse, like a membrane, and is destroyed. Therefore, cementation allows you to have an extremely hard outer layer that provides resistance to a projectile, and a fairly plastic inner layer that allows the armor plate to work with a large deflection. The most important characteristic of thick cemented armor is the thickness of the cementation and the overall strength within the limits of elastic deformation. With a contrasting boundary between the layers (the transition in jargon is called “ski slope”), both layers begin to work as if separately, which leads to a decrease in the durability of the slab.
      1. +2
        21 March 2024 07: 29
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        With a contrasting boundary between the layers (the transition in jargon is called “ski slope”), both layers begin to work as if separately
        But wouldn’t the boundary between the layers itself be a stress concentrator, and therefore the Achilles’ heel of the sheet? I still have something left in my head from the “Plate Theory” and the different hardness of one monolith is not entirely good
        1. +2
          21 March 2024 08: 09
          Who will determine this now? Moreover, the statistics are real - the cat cried. But all tank armor is different. They seem to be trying to make her homogeneous
          1. +2
            21 March 2024 10: 39
            Quote: MCmaximus
            Who will determine this now? Moreover, the statistics are real - the cat cried
            And here, hit statistics are not required at all, just a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough to “test” the resistance of the metal wink
        2. +2
          21 March 2024 08: 44
          The British, Germans and Americans solved this problem by World War II through alloying additives and heat treatment technology. As a result (according to the British), English armor received a fairly hard, very thick outer layer (up to 30-40% of the total thickness), a gentle ski slope and an elastic load-bearing layer. The British themselves considered their armor to be 20% more effective than the standard Krupp armor. German and American metallurgists achieved similar results, albeit with a smaller thickness of the cemented layer.
        3. +1
          21 March 2024 16: 53
          And the boundary between the layers itself will not be a stress concentrator?

          Of course it will be. There were quite a few cases of delamination of the cemented layer. But the projectile did not pass through the slab, i.e. better delamination than damage in the cellar or ship's car.
        4. 0
          21 March 2024 17: 55
          But wouldn’t the boundary between the layers itself be a stress concentrator, and therefore the Achilles’ heel of the sheet?

          It will not happen if the technology is followed. Because there is no sharp transition from the carburized layer to the low-carbon base. There is a smooth gradient - at the surface there is one percent carbon or more and gradually decreases further in depth. The data is online
          1. +1
            21 March 2024 18: 44
            Quote: Engineer
            It will not happen if the technology is followed.
            It would be interesting to look at the hits on the armor plates of ships after the Battle of Jutland
            1. -1
              21 March 2024 20: 54
              If you are so concerned about the border between the cemented and uncemented parts of the sheet, then, as already mentioned above, there is no clear border, the transition is smooth. They cemented (and now they can too, but there are other methods) not only armor, but, for example, gears, since the hardened surface wears out less, but a gear hardened through and through cracks faster (the teeth knock against each other at high speed when the gears engage , the lower the manufacturing accuracy, the stronger it is, and the load on each tooth appears and disappears, trying to bend it).
      2. 0
        21 March 2024 12: 15
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Deck protection certainly increased the rigidity of the longitudinal connections, but was not taken into account in the calculations due to the fact that small-sized slabs have a purely local effect.

        Dear Victor. If you look at the books “Design of Warships” from the period 1890-1915, they still take into account the influence of decks on the overall strength when making calculations. In the 1902 edition, if I am not mistaken with the date, it is provided to include wooden flooring in the calculation.
        1. +1
          21 March 2024 15: 23
          Thanks Igor, I'll take a look.
          Only it seems to me that this is specifically about the deck flooring. The same goes for the casing. But Bubnov actually took deck armor into account, albeit under the condition of complete fit.
    3. +5
      21 March 2024 09: 34
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      In addition, armor plates probably not only protect the ship from being hit by a projectile, but also serve as a strength component for the overall design

      At that time, no. This technology emerged during the period between the two world wars.
    4. 0
      25 March 2024 17: 40
      Why were the sheets only cemented and not completely hardened?

      They were hardened. In any case, if we are not talking about the middle of the 19th century, but about the types of steel armor of the late 19th century.

      https://stvolar.livejournal.com/48673.html

      “The first plates manufactured by the Obukhov plant were nickel-free steel, 10-inch (254 mm) thick. However, tests of two such plates, one of which, made of crucible steel, was hardened and tempered, and the second, made of open-hearth steel, was hardened without tempering, led to their penetration with significant cracking of the slabs.
      After this, the Obukhov plant switched to the production of steel-nickel plates. One of these slabs was fired 5 times from 606 to 640 m/s and the slab did not receive any cracks.
      At the OSZ A.A. Rzheshotarsky in 1894 established the following method for manufacturing armor plates. The material for steel-nickel armor was open-hearth steel produced by the “acid” method in blanks from 1200 to 2400 poods (from 19,66 to 39,31 metric tons), containing 0,25-0,35% carbon, 2,5% nickel and 0,4. .0,5-1,2% manganese. The cast and forged slab was subjected to garveying, or cementation. The result of hardening was that at the front surface of the slab the carbon content reached 1,55%, further into the slab it gradually decreased, and at a distance of about 39,4 inches (XNUMX mm) from the back surface the effect of cementation ceased.
      The slabs were annealed in furnaces. Annealing occurred immediately after forging the slab and consisted of heating the slab until red-hot, and then slowly cooling it. If the slab was garveted, then this annealing was not performed, and the slab, after forging and cutting the edges, went straight to garveying and then annealed at a temperature of about 700 degrees.
      The purpose of such an operation as annealing was to ensure good viscosity of the plates. After annealing, steel acquires an amorphous composition to a greater or lesser depth, and in nickel steel this depth is greater than in ordinary carbon steel (for comparison, chromium-nickel steel used in the later Krupp armor, subjected to annealing alone, gives a coarse-grained composition and becomes extremely hard and brittle - however, after quenching in water at a certain temperature, the same steel acquires an amorphous fibrous composition, and the depth of penetration of amorphism is greater than for nickel and ordinary carbon steel).
      The Obukhov plant divided its armor into turret and side armor.

      [...]

      “A detailed index of the departments of the All-Russian Industrial and Art Exhibition of 1896 in Nizhny Novgorod. Department XVI Naval" (Moscow, 1896) on page 66 provides slightly different data on the chemical composition of the 10-inch steel-nickel side armor plate of the Obukhov plant for the battleship Poltava. According to the Index, this plate was made under a hydraulic press from the lower part of an open-hearth billet (weighing 2000 pounds), containing 0,33% carbon, 0,4% manganese and about 3% nickel. The weight of the slab is 520 pounds. Cost 5200 rubles. After forging and heating in a furnace to 800 degrees, the plate was hardened in water and, after tempering, cooled slowly in the furnace over three days; After that, holes for bolts were drilled in it and the plate was tested by shooting.
      In conclusion, it is worth noting that according to the information provided by V.Ya. Krestyaninov on pages 55-56 of Midship Frame No. 40, dedicated to the squadron battleship Gangut, as of July 1896, when the issue of rebooking this ship was being decided using garvey armor, due to the unavailability of furnaces for cementing slabs, the Obukhov plant agreed to supply only steel-nickel slabs, and garvey ones - no earlier than January 1897.

      2.2. The already mentioned “Detailed Index to the Departments of the All-Russian Industrial and Art Exhibition of 1896 in Nizhny Novgorod” on page 30 also contains data on the 12-inch steel-nickel side plate produced by the Admiralty Izhora Plants for the squadron battleship “Sevastopol”.
      The chemical composition of the steel of this plate given in the Index was as follows: carbon about 0,22%, nickel about 2,25% and manganese about 0,45%. The blank cast for this slab is forged under a press, finally rolled to 12-inch thickness and bent according to patterns. After cutting the edges, the plate is hardened, annealed and holes are drilled into it. To bring the blank slab to its final form, it needed to be heated 10 times. The weight of the slab is 832 pounds, with the cost of a pound of 12-inch armor being 12 rubles.
      For the Izhora Harvey armor, the process of its production was described by R.V. Kondratenko on page 37 of his work “Development of armor production in the Russian Empire” (St. Petersburg, 2008) with reference to the article by Lieutenant N.M. Beklemishev “On the study of equipment by naval officers "(Notes of the course of naval sciences, issue 1, St. Petersburg, 1897):
      “... the material for the garvement slabs of the Izhora plant was “cast iron and iron scrap, fused in Siemens furnaces with an acid (sand) hearth,” while for the production of construction steel the main hearth was used - dolomite. Nickel was introduced at the beginning of the smelting. The finished steel was released into molds and allowed to cool for three to four days. The ingots were removed with a crane, the slag was separated, and the remaining part was heated in incandescent furnaces and rolled out between rollers. For carburization, the slabs were stacked in pairs, with a layer of coal, placed in a cementing furnace, and the entrance was sealed with bricks. In the oven, the slabs were gradually heated over three weeks. During this time, their front surface was saturated with carbon up to 1%, while on average the metal of the plate contained about 0,25% carbon. The cemented slabs were cut with circular saws and bent under a press during reheating, after which they were heated to the hardening temperature and placed in a hardening tank, where they were washed with jets of water, first from the hardened side, and then from the reverse, for two hours, after which they were carburized the surface became hard to a depth of approximately 1,5 inches [38,1 mm - approx. author]. Upon completion of the inspection and possible straightening, sockets for bolts were drilled into the slab, after which it was considered ready for shipment to St. Petersburg or Kronstadt."
  5. +3
    21 March 2024 07: 59
    Many thanks to the author.

    Articles like these are why I came to VO.
  6. +2
    21 March 2024 10: 01
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting continuation.

    [/quote]Plates “Ch. Kammel" and "J. Brown" collapsed during testing, but "Saint-Chamon" (steel-nickel) and "Vickers" (Harvey) did not. Both slabs were not pierced and did not have through cracks, but the Vickers slab, thanks to cementation, turned out to be almost undamaged in comparison with Saint-Chamon. [/quote]

    Apparently the Saint-Chamon armor already had the addition of nickel and chromium; production began in 1891.

    [quote] Let us note that, for unknown reasons, the Navy Ministry accepted into the treasury the Harvey armor of the American Bethlehem Iron Company, which was inferior to the previously tested Vickers, and the steel-nickel armor of the same company, which was inferior to similar domestically made armor.[/quote]

    Perhaps it's a matter of price, although for the battleship "Three Saints" some of the armor was made in France. Below is the French 157 mm armor plate of the battleship "Three Saints", which was fired by four Holtzer shells, speed 581-599 m/s.
  7. +3
    21 March 2024 10: 22
    I’m reading the series and it doesn’t leave me with a feeling of terrible leapfrog in testing armor and shells. Lack of standards and standards. A small bunch of calibers, types, thicknesses, methods and other things with non-obvious recalculation using formulas. Was no one really concerned about bringing the system to uniformity? After all, the importance of this in such matters is obvious.
    1. -1
      21 March 2024 10: 42
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Was no one really concerned about bringing the system to uniformity?
      The main thing in this matter is to keep technology secret. After all, if the enemy knows all the alloys of steel and the full cycle of its heat treatment, then he will certainly come up with a projectile that will pierce this armor. In my opinion, the secret of the armor of the T-34 tank still lies under seven furnaces
      1. +1
        21 March 2024 10: 49
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Quote: KVU-NSVD
        Was no one really concerned about bringing the system to uniformity?
        The main thing in this matter is to keep technology secret. After all, if the enemy knows all the alloys of steel and the full cycle of its heat treatment, then he will certainly come up with a projectile that will pierce this armor. In my opinion, the secret of the armor of the T-34 tank still lies under seven furnaces

        I'm not talking about the uniformity of the projectile and armor system. I'm talking about the uniformity of the testing system and evaluation of results
      2. 0
        21 March 2024 16: 50
        In my opinion, the secret of the armor of the T-34 tank still lies under seven furnaces

        There is no secret: MZ-2 is ersatz armor, with a minimum of alloying additives, which was good for very large production volumes.
        Durability was increased by hardening to high hardness, which resulted in cracks in tank hulls and fragility when hit by medium-caliber shells.
        1. 0
          21 March 2024 18: 30
          Quote: Jura 27
          No secret
          All armor alloys and its consistent heat treatment.
          1. +1
            22 March 2024 14: 34
            legerates

            There is no such term in Russian. There are alloying elements.
            its sequential heat treatment

            The sequence of operations, called heat treatment, is determined by the critical temperatures at which a change in the phase state and structure of steel occurs when it is heated and cooled in solid form - the Chernov point. This - like Newton's law - works the same all over the world.
            1. +1
              22 March 2024 14: 42
              Quote: Dekabrist
              There are alloying elements
              Too long to say. Every business has its own jargon. This is not thieves' jargon or a mockery of the Russian language, but a conversation between people of the same profession. “Legirate” is a professional slang expression from the word “Alloying”. You don’t like the word “jargon”, you can replace it with “argo”, the meaning does not change
              1. +1
                22 March 2024 15: 01
                "Legirate" is a professional slang expression from the word "Alloying"

                I guess I was unlucky. In 40 years of working in metallurgy, I have never seen it anywhere except Bulgaria. In Bulgarian, “legirat” means to alloy.
                1. 0
                  22 March 2024 18: 32
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  Over 40 years of work in metallurgy

                  Great! Maybe you can clarify this for me, otherwise opinions on this matter are polar:

                  Quote: Dutchman Michel
                  And the boundary between the layers itself will not be a stress concentrator, and therefore the Achilles heel of the sheet
                  And this too:
                  Quote: Dutchman Michel
                  How can a cemented surface be hardened? After all, when heated, uncemented metal will begin to harden, and already cemented metal, on the contrary, will begin to temper.
                  1. 0
                    22 March 2024 22: 11
                    And the boundary between the layers itself will not be a stress concentrator?

                    With proper hardening, there is no pronounced boundary between the layers. With increasing depth, it changes approximately as in the graph in the figure. Depending on the composition of the steel, the schedule may change, but not fundamentally.
                    How can a cemented surface be hardened? After all, when heated, uncemented metal will begin to harden, and already cemented metal, on the contrary, will begin to temper.

                    Sorry, but what you wrote was stupid. The surface of the metal is cemented so that it can be hardened, since steel with a carbon content below 0,4 percent cannot be hardened. Krupp armor before cementation contains 0,37 percent carbon.
                    1. -1
                      23 March 2024 04: 50
                      The surface of the metal is cemented so that it can be hardened, since steel with a carbon content below 0,4 percent cannot be hardened.

                      Another "scientific" discovery. Are you really related to technical disciplines?
                      Here: https://t34inform.ru/doc/sp_Armor_NKSP-1940.html
                      7 GU NKSP claims that the MZ-2 (I-8S) armor steel for the T-34 tanks contained only a maximum of 0,27% carbon.
                      And you want to say that the T-34 armor was not hardened, because... Does it contain less than 0,4% carbon?
                      Ooo !!!
                      1. 0
                        23 March 2024 08: 19
                        Dear man, instead of moaning, you should read something, so as not to distract people with your ignorant comments.
                      2. 0
                        24 March 2024 16: 31
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        Dear man, instead of moaning, you should read something, so as not to distract people with your ignorant comments.

                        That is, they simply merged again, after another landing in a puddle.
                        And why should I read anything else other than your “scientific” discoveries - their magnificence is quite enough.
                    2. 0
                      23 March 2024 05: 08
                      Quote: Dekabrist
                      The surface of the metal is cemented so that it can be hardened
                      In general, the surface of the metal is cemented to give it hardness. I myself, when I was still at school, cemented a hoe for my garden at a factory. Now watch your hands:
                      1. A sheet of metal is placed in the oven
                      2. One surface of this metal is cemented, the other is not (let me clarify that the metal has all the properties for heat treatment)
                      3. With increasing t°, part of the so-called. The “raw” metal begins to harden, and the other part, the cemented one, on the contrary, begins to temper.
                      3. Where is the logic here?
                      1. 0
                        23 March 2024 08: 17
                        I myself, when I was still at school, cemented a hoe for my garden at a factory.

                        Describe how you did it.
                        You are describing a process that does not exist. An increase in temperature in itself does not cause any hardening or hardening. In order for hardening to occur, the steel must be cooled quickly. If cooled slowly, tempering will occur.
                      2. 0
                        23 March 2024 08: 29
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        If cooled slowly, tempering will occur.
                        Vacation can only be after hardening
                      3. 0
                        23 March 2024 08: 41
                        Vacation can only be after hardening

                        Right. I wrote about the fundamental difference between hardening and tempering - the cooling rate.
                      4. 0
                        26 March 2024 18: 27
                        Carburization itself without subsequent hardening does not provide hardness. Therefore, after carburization, you can continue to process the part as “raw”, and, for example, remove the cemented layer of metal without carbide tools or grinding, leaving it only where it is needed, and then harden it. You may have confused the process with cyanidation (a hybrid of carburization and nitriding).
                      5. 0
                        26 March 2024 18: 32
                        Carburization itself without subsequent hardening does not provide hardness.

                        And what did I write about?
                      6. 0
                        26 March 2024 18: 34
                        I'm talking to the Dutchman about cementing the hoe hi
                      7. 0
                        26 March 2024 18: 35
                        Clear.
                        Your comment text is too short
          2. +1
            22 March 2024 17: 33
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Quote: Jura 27
            No secret
            All armor alloys and its consistent heat treatment.

            Chemical composition here: https://t34inform.ru/doc/1940-01-13_MZ-2.html
            And on the same site there is information on heat treatment.
            1. +1
              22 March 2024 18: 37
              Quote: Jura 27
              Chemical composition here
              I read that this is a very big secret and I walked around with this in my head for 30 years... Thank you
              1. 0
                23 March 2024 04: 33
                Quote: Dutchman Michel
                Quote: Jura 27
                Chemical composition here
                I read that this is a very big secret and I walked around with this in my head for 30 years... Thank you

                Pls!
    2. +4
      21 March 2024 11: 27
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Was no one really concerned about bringing the system to uniformity? After all, the importance of this in such matters is obvious.

      It is so difficult to bring the system to uniformity in a period of constant changes and leapfrogs with weapons and armor. We just adapted to 30-caliber systems - already 35 calibers. And 40-45 calibers are stepping on their heels. Only yesterday the main caliber was 11 inches - and now it’s 12. And behind them - a rollback of 10 inches. And on the other side of the sight there are the same problems - steel-iron, chromium-nickel, Harvey, Krupp, etc.
    3. +4
      21 March 2024 13: 15
      The era of standardization came a little later. Even Comrade Stalin, already in the 40s, signed a draconian decree “On the release of products that do not meet established standards.”
    4. +5
      21 March 2024 18: 35
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Lack of standards and standards. A small bunch of calibers, types, thicknesses, methods and other things with non-obvious recalculation using formulas. Was no one really concerned about bringing the system to uniformity?

      Alas, everyone was mainly concerned about money. Let's not forget that the Naval Ministry managed not to find 70 rubles to test the lethality of new steel high-explosive and armor-piercing shells... Therefore, tests of something new were often combined with tests when accepting armor - hence the discrepancy in calibers and plates
  8. +2
    21 March 2024 12: 11
    On the one hand, the appearance of such articles against the backdrop of frankly wretched current content cannot but rejoice. On the other hand, the author’s lack of necessary knowledge in the field of metallurgy is very striking, therefore the technical side of the article is frankly weak and replete with errors.
    As you know, armor can be relatively soft, but at the same time tough: using certain hardening methods you can give it greater strength

    Hardening serves to impart hardness, that is, the ability to resist the penetration of a harder body. Now about durability. Everything is much more complicated here. The tensile strength increases simultaneously with an increase in hardness to 48 - 52HRC; a further increase in hardness causes a sharp drop in the tensile strength. This is due to a change in the destruction mechanism. At the first stage of hardness growth, the fracture is viscous; it is preceded by plastic deformation, the implementation of which requires energy expenditure; in the second stage the fracture is brittle. During the time frame under consideration, the armor was hardened to 58 - 60HRC, that is, there was a decrease in the strength of the hardened layer.
    What kind of armor was presented by Vickers?
    ...
    that is, in relation to the Vickers plate we are talking about “Harvey-nickel” armor.

    I would not be so categorical.
    If you read serious sources, for example, David K. Brown, you can find information that the British made their Harvey armor from simple carbon steel and did not alloy it with nickel.
    1. +4
      21 March 2024 13: 54
      Quote: Dekabrist
      On the other hand, the author’s lack of necessary knowledge in the field of metallurgy is very striking, therefore the technical side of the article is frankly weak and replete with errors.

      Dear Victor, if you formulate at least the main mistakes, I will be happy to give a refutation in the next article. On yourself.
      What I understood from your comment and other reviews:
      1) I am using the term “hardening” incorrectly
      2) There is a nuance associated with excess hardness, due to which the strength decreased - but, as I understand it, it decreased from the possible strength that could be achieved, and not from uncemented strength :)
      But with this
      Quote: Dekabrist
      If you read serious sources, for example, David K. Brown, you can find information that the British made their Harvey armor from simple carbon steel and did not alloy it with nickel.

      It’s hard for me to understand why you consider Kolchak a frivolous source. The fact that the British generally did not use nickel does not indicate its absence in this particular slab, which is unlikely to have been a mass-produced product.
      1. +4
        21 March 2024 14: 19
        Dear Victor, if you formulate at least the main mistakes, I will be happy to give a refutation in the next article. On yourself.

        Dear Andrey. There is such a conflict here. On the one hand, from the point of view of TMP (Theory of Metallurgical Processes) and materials science, your entire cycle is an error, since based on the information you operate it is impossible to draw the conceptual conclusions that you are trying to draw.
        This requires specific data from chemical, metallographic analysis and hardness measurements of both armor and projectile materials, as well as accurate values ​​of the parameters of the shots. Without all this, you can do pure fortune telling on coffee grounds.
        On the other hand, you analyzed a lot of information, much of it little-known, and brought it to the reader. In the background of today's site is a light in the window. I don’t dare to criticize you too much.
        1. +1
          21 March 2024 14: 30
          So, where can we get these materials? It looks like there aren't any. Each plant maraked in its own way. Go figure it out. There are no scientific institutes to systematize all this.
          An unnecessary characteristic of “the country that built dreadnoughts.” Systematicity - zero. Even in things like defense.
        2. 0
          21 March 2024 17: 55
          Quote: Dekabrist
          from the point of view of TMP (Theory of Metallurgical Processes) and materials science - your entire cycle is a mistake

          if it `s not a secret:
          1) at the time that the author describes, did the theory you indicated exist? hi
          2) Do you know what measuring instruments were used at that time?
          1. +2
            21 March 2024 18: 29
            the theory you mentioned existed

            Naturally. How do you imagine steel production on an industrial scale without a theoretical basis?
            The names Anosov, Chernov, Kurnakov, Pavlov, Roberts-Austen, Rosebohm, Rzheshotarsky don’t mean anything to you?
            The metallurgical laboratory at the Obukhov plant was created in 1895.
            what measuring instruments were used at that time?

            Microphotography has been used to study the macrostructure of steel since 1864, and the metallographic microscope since 1897.
            1. -1
              22 March 2024 13: 12
              Quote: Dekabrist
              Rzheshotarsky They don’t tell you anything?

              This is not a theory that is described in textbooks and taught in universities! This is the preparatory stage! You're just running in.... request
              Quote: Dekabrist
              metallographic microscope

              it is difficult to classify it as an SI, it is just an observation device! hi
              I’m talking about something else - how in those days they measured the temperature in workshops... I suppose without thermocouples, they were rather determined by color, at the edge by melting, and chemical analysis was “done” by the color of the spark...
              1. 0
                22 March 2024 13: 19
                Excuse me, what is your specialty?
                1. -1
                  22 March 2024 13: 26
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  Excuse me, what is your specialty?

                  My area of ​​interest includes material science, but definitely not a metallurgist, but I’m pretty good at metrology hi
                  1. 0
                    22 March 2024 13: 32
                    You don’t understand the word at all in metrology, otherwise you would know that the pyrometer, that is, a device for measuring the temperature of opaque bodies by their radiation in the optical range of the spectrum, including molten metals, was invented back in 1731 by Pieter van Musschenbroeck.
                    And detailed chemical analysis of ores, cast iron and steel has been used since the beginning of the 19th century. Have you heard about Berzelius?
                    1. 0
                      22 March 2024 13: 37
                      Quote: Dekabrist
                      You don’t understand the word at all in metrology,

                      Oh, what loud passages, it seems from a teenager! request Which pyrometer exactly? Optical, color or even radiation? bully
                      Inventing and using in factories is different!
                      1. 0
                        22 March 2024 13: 40
                        As I expected, you are an ordinary ignorant troll.
                      2. -1
                        22 March 2024 13: 43
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        As I expected, you are an ordinary ignorant troll.

                        The speed and stupidity of your conclusions speaks of your youth and, naturally, the illiteracy of a freshly baked bachelor! hi
                  2. 0
                    22 March 2024 13: 37
                    Do you have any education?
                    1. -1
                      22 March 2024 13: 38
                      Quote: Dekabrist
                      Do you have any education?

                      are we under interrogation? bully I am an engineer-physicist, young man! I graduated from FTF TPI, and you?
                      1. 0
                        22 March 2024 13: 42
                        You are such a physicist, like a bullet is made from turd. Go learn your lessons better and don’t hang around on adult sites. Otherwise you will remain so ignorant.
                      2. -2
                        22 March 2024 13: 46
                        Quote: Dekabrist
                        You are such a physicist, like a bullet is made from turd. Go learn your lessons better and don’t hang around on adult sites. Otherwise you will remain so ignorant.

                        What a hysteria, young man! Due to general stupidity, you don’t know that you flogged yourself and talked about your hobbies on the Internet! hi
                        By the way, you didn’t deign to answer my question about your education - I answered your question!
        3. +5
          21 March 2024 18: 15
          Quote: Dekabrist
          On the one hand, from the point of view of TMP (Theory of Metallurgical Processes) and materials science, your entire cycle is an error, since based on the information you operate it is impossible to draw the conceptual conclusions that you are trying to draw.

          You are certainly right. Therefore, I do not consider this cycle as a strict proof of a certain theory, but only as the formation of a hypothesis that is built on the information available to me and has the right to life in the absence of more accurate data.
          I will definitely draw the attention of readers to this.
          Quote: Dekabrist
          I don’t dare to criticize you too much.

          And yet, if you see any gross mistakes, I will be grateful for criticism.
          1. +4
            21 March 2024 18: 38
            having the right to life

            There were times when such discussion articles, one might say, “gathered friends,” were a kind of “club of interests,” a place for communication and exchange of information.
            1. +3
              21 March 2024 19: 00
              Quote: Dekabrist
              There were times when such discussion articles, one might say, “gathered friends,” were a kind of “club of interests,” a place for communication and exchange of information.

              Absolutely right. I'm trying, you know, to do something like this on "VO" :))))
              1. +4
                21 March 2024 19: 37
                I'm trying, you know, to do something like this on "VO"

                But those in a friendly meeting
                I first read the stanzas ...
                There are no others, and those are far away...
                1. +4
                  21 March 2024 19: 41
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  But those in a friendly meeting

                  Who can argue... But there are good people at VO, and it’s not that there are few of them. And... I try to look at the past years with humor
                  "Having completed half my earthly life,
                  I found myself in a gloomy fox..."
                  1. +2
                    21 March 2024 19: 54
                    And... I try to look at the past years with humor


                    But I don’t want, O friends, to die;
                    I want to live so that I can think and suffer;
                    And I know I will have pleasures
                    Between sorrows, worries and worries:
                    Sometimes I’ll get drunk again with harmony,
                    I will shed tears over the fiction,
                    And maybe - for my sad sunset
                    Love will flash with a farewell smile.
          2. 0
            22 March 2024 13: 17
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            but only as the formation of a hypothesis,

            from the data in the article it seemed to me that the K coefficient for non-armor steel (or iron?) is about 1000? In this case, can we consider that K essentially gives the degree of reduction in the thickness of the armor relative to non-armor steel (iron)?
  9. 0
    21 March 2024 13: 07
    Japanese battleships were built in England. And naturally, the British, don’t be fools, used their own armor, their own developments. "Mikasa" is the last; the British themselves had by this time switched to the Krupp cementation method.
  10. +1
    21 March 2024 13: 12
    Interesting! especially about booking Poltava. If the author further manages to consider the work of different types of armor in combat conditions, then it will be a miracle!
  11. +4
    21 March 2024 15: 37
    Dear Andrew!
    I didn’t thank you for the interesting continuation, I’m correcting myself.
    As for metallurgy, my advice is not to go too deep. As far as I remember, two metallurgical doctors had three completely opposite opinions about everything.
    What the respected Dekabrist (Victor) wrote mainly applies to machine parts made of homogeneous material, maximum hardened to reduce wear. With heterogeneous armor everything is more complicated: otherwise you need to take into account high and low tempering, primary and final hardening, etc. That is why the ski slope must fall into the transition zone from a hard but brittle face to a softer but durable base with appropriate hardening of the material. Otherwise you will end up with either glass or dough.
    So you are on the right path! (Well, in my amateurish opinion).
    1. 0
      21 March 2024 17: 43
      with appropriate calcination

      What is “calcination” in relation to steel?
    2. 0
      21 March 2024 20: 37
      Good evening, dear Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      I didn’t thank you for the interesting continuation, I’m correcting myself.

      Thank you very much :))) As for not deepening - yes, that’s what I’ll do. Actually, I didn’t really plan to get into metallurgy
  12. 0
    21 March 2024 18: 33
    hmm on Hansa there was such a non-trivial character with the nickname SRL.
    As for me, he was a bit skittish, but he knew a lot (I valued him for his knowledge).
    here is his creation https://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?t=250226&start=750
    1. 0
      22 March 2024 13: 23
      Quote: george.old
      https://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?t=250226&start=750

      Thank you! interesting review!
  13. 0
    21 March 2024 21: 32
    Of course +++ to my favorite author. The quibbles of the "metallurgists" are unjustified, since what is being considered here is not the "structural" reasons for "this or that" (Ryabov TM))) strength, but the result - resistance specifically to projectiles (different)
    Among the shortcomings, a “hodgepodge” of armor within one ship was noted, but even hypotheses where the Amer was used were not considered. armor Bethlehem Company, and where - domestic. Yes, the cycle is focused on armor, but the ships are also interesting. To the same readers)
  14. +2
    21 March 2024 22: 17
    Andrey, thanks for the new article! I read it with pleasure.
  15. +4
    22 March 2024 04: 33
    Let us note that, for unknown reasons, the Naval Ministry accepted into the treasury the garvey armor of the American Bethlehem Iron Company, which was inferior to the previously tested Vickers, and the steel-nickel armor of the same company, which was inferior to similar armor made domestically.

    Dear Andrew,
    Most likely, the reason there was prosaic - the armor from the Bethlehem Iron Company was received at an extremely low price.
    In Russia, official tenders were announced for the supply of armor for the Russian fleet, and European companies, like the American Carnegie, were expectedly unable to offer such an attractive price as the South Bethlehem plant.
    According to the contract, the Americans were supposed to supply us with about 1 tons of steel-nickel armor, and, according to the contract, only a third of this armor was garveyized. The price was ridiculous; it cost $264 per ton.

    This contract provided the following option: at the request of the customer, the total weight of the supplied armor could be increased by three hundred tons. Russia took advantage of this opportunity, and the total weight of the armor supplied was 1 tons. The armor plates there were of the simplest configuration and, I repeat, only third they were Garveyized.
    This was the price of more than fifty percent discount made by the Americans.
  16. -4
    22 March 2024 16: 40
    A funny choice for evaluation - one respected one said, another said even more, and the third is so respected that there is nowhere else to go, and on what basis did these respected figures come up - and - without citing the source - they came up with it themselves - because it seems so to them - or did they look somewhere - and it’s not a fact that they understood - what they saw?
    If you take the tests - it’s complete nonsense - they took a 16" plate and decided to shoot with a 6" (why not with a 75mm or, in general, with a Nagan?) - they didn’t shoot through and were probably very surprised - “how can that be?” But the 9" one penetrated as much as 368mm of Krupp armor, which any battleship before Yamato would envy; one wonders where the development of artillery went on the subsequent LKs - if a lousy 9" with a barrel length of 30-35 calibers penetrates so much?
    The tests themselves are no less funny - they shot three times, they struck at different speeds, and they were all ready to calculate the coefficients accurate to the 3rd decimal place. And with the mass of the projectile, they’ve already eaten away the baldness - well, a projectile of this caliber cannot weigh so much with a projectile length of less than 3 calibers - but it’s indecent to admit that the source simply mixed up the numbers. And what about armor up to 127mm (actually there was info that less than 76mm is not allowed) according to what laws of physics can it not be hardened? - and what kind of armor did it correspond to - ordinary piece of iron?
  17. +1
    23 March 2024 05: 14
    Quote: Jura 27
    With proper hardening there is no pronounced boundary between layers
    I've heard this somewhere before. But in the Soviet textbook on strength of materials there was a very good example of a flat board with a piece of knot in the middle. The board is good, oak, but the knot is its weakest point. A small load on the board and it will immediately burst. The border of tardiness, even if not clearly expressed, is that very knot
  18. 0
    23 March 2024 05: 22
    Quote: Dekabrist
    With proper hardening there is no pronounced boundary between layers
    I've heard this somewhere before. But in the Soviet textbook on strength of materials there was a very good example of a flat board with a piece of knot in the middle. The board is good, oak, but the knot is its weakest point. A small load on the board and it will immediately burst. The border of tardiness, even if not clearly expressed, is that very knot
    There is no way to edit the text
  19. 0
    25 March 2024 10: 33
    Even if we assume that the armor of Sevastopol and Petropavlovsk turned out to be unimportant, you still need to understand how this affected their operation. But this had no effect. Many ships have certain weak points, this does not mean that this will necessarily destroy the ship. Fuji's weak point was the storage of charges at the rear of the turret, which could potentially destroy the ship. In fact, even hitting the tower did not lead to his death.
    1. +1
      25 March 2024 14: 36
      Fuji's weak point was the storage of charges at the rear of the turret, which could potentially destroy the ship. In fact, even hitting the tower did not lead to his death

      The rear wall of the turret was knocked out of the Fuji, and the roof of the turret also had bars. Therefore, the ignition of powder charges did not lead to a disaster.
  20. 0
    25 March 2024 17: 00
    From the “Report” on the tests referred to by S.V. Suliga, it turns out that on October 28, 1896, they fired at a 254-mm plate from a 203-mm gun, but which one exactly (the old 35-caliber or the new 45-caliber) - not said. At the same time, the document states that the projectile weighed 48,12 kg, but this is an obvious mistake, which was pointed out by S.V. Suliga: there was no ammunition of this weight for eight-inch artillery systems in Russia. The speed upon impact with the slab was 758 m/sec.


    They fired from a new 8"/45 cannon developed by A.F. Brink. The old 8"/35 cannon could not fire an armor-piercing projectile of any available design with a muzzle velocity of 758 m/s, not to mention such a speed when the projectile hit a slab.