50 shotguns per year for the Russian army. Why the problem of FPV kamikaze drones needs to be solved now

Forecasting the directions of development of weapons and military equipment (W&M), as well as the tactics of their use, is not an easy task. Even in the era of bows and arrows, swords and shields, there was a continuous improvement in weapons and the tactics of their use; what yesterday was a “wunderwaffe” today became the cause of defeat. What can we say about our time, when technology is developing so rapidly that the emergence of a new weapons, capable of bringing about a revolution on the battlefield, sometimes takes not years or decades, but a matter of months.

Kamikaze UAV a year before the start of the SVO

About three years ago, almost a year before the start of the Russian Special Military Operation (SVO) in Ukraine, the author examined the prospects for the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) - kamikazes on the battlefield.

For example, in the material dated March 6, 2021 “Kamikaze UAV: ​​new capabilities for ground units” tactical-class kamikaze UAVs were considered, including the Lancet-3, which became the star of the air defense system.

Everyone can draw their own conclusion to what extent the forecasts set out in that material have become the reality of today:

“...It can be assumed that over time they (kamikaze UAVs) will become an integral element of the armament of ground units, just as mortars and anti-tank systems became such. They can be used both as support weapons for infantry units and as an independent offensive tool. Kamikaze UAVs are capable of not only complementing the capabilities of mortars and ATGMs, but in many cases replacing them...

Electronic warfare systems will indeed be able to complicate the life of UAVs, but not completely paralyze their work...

The use of modern digital noise-resistant transmitters, simultaneously operating in several wavelength ranges, with pseudo-random tuning of the operating frequency (PRFC), will minimize the influence of electronic warfare equipment. Satellite navigation systems are complemented by inertial ones, allowing the UAV, if not to strike, then to return safely, leaving the field of action of electronic warfare equipment.

Intelligent navigation systems are being developed based on the analysis of terrain images, which are not affected by electronic warfare at all. All this sounds very “expensive”, but in fact, with mass production, all this can be implemented in the dimensions and at the cost of a modern smartphone.

For those who cannot afford effective systems to counter small UAVs, including kamikaze UAVs, they can become a huge threat that the armies of the “past” will find extremely difficult to combat.... "

Who knew then what impact the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAVs would have on the course of hostilities in Ukraine... Image by Wikimedia Commons / Nickel nitride

In the following material from March 21, 2021 “Drones versus manpower: will small-sized UAVs replace a rifle on the battlefield? we talked about even smaller kamikaze UAVs, whose task will be to directly destroy enemy personnel.

“...The optimal solution may be to introduce an individual fighter (or several fighters) into the ground unit - the carrier/operator of a micro-UAV-kamikaze, providing fire support or even priority destruction of enemy personnel.

In the first case, it will carry out the destruction of the most difficult and dangerous targets - enemy firing points, snipers, machine gunners, grenade launchers, mortar crews and ATGMs.

In the second case, carriers/operators of micro-UAV-kamikazes will carry out a consistent search and destruction of all enemy personnel in a given area, while the rest of the fighters will cover them from direct attack...

Micro-UAV kamikaze will have a huge impact on the face of the battlefield.

The concept of “shelter” will change significantly, if it remains at all. Concrete blocks, trenches, long-term firing points (pillboxes) and other protective structures will not protect against micro-UAV-kamikazes, unless it is a sealed armored shelter like tank (against which larger kamikaze UAVs can be used)...

Formally, kamikaze micro-UAVs will not replace rifles and other small arms on the battlefield. But in fact, if developed means of countering such weapons are not created, micro-UAV-kamikazes can ensure the defeat of more enemy personnel than any other type of anti-personnel weapons».

It is characteristic that the forecasts from this material were not fully justified.

On the one hand, micro-UAVs are practically absent on the battlefield, on the other hand, they were not needed - it turned out that it is more profitable to use universal FPVsdrones with ammunition from a hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher (RPG), capable of destroying even an armored vehicle, a multiple launch rocket system (MLRS), even a single infantryman, but even in this case the similarity in the concept of use is obvious.

The author's proposed concept of transportation by the operator of a micro-UAV-kamikaze...

...and a backpack for carrying FPV drones “Gadfly” from the manufacturer. Image t.me/tulaovod

In addition, do not forget that almost all FPV drones used against enemy personnel on both sides are models made from widely available civilian components.

The question is, what will happen when a reasonable and purposeful government structure with enormous financial and production capabilities gets down to business? For example, somewhere in China?

How many unified micro-UAVs-kamikazes with already built-in warheads, in compact housings, can they produce per year on robotic conveyor lines? Million? Five million? Ten?

To some, these figures may seem exaggerated, but this is inevitable - Kamikaze UAVs will be used by millions.

However, let's return to today.

And today we need to fend off attacks from thousands of FPV drones. Lack of normal aviation support and a lack of artillery shells are forcing the Ukrainian Armed Forces (AFU) to rely on the massive use of FPV drones, as a result of which there are so many of them on the battlefield that they are often chasing individual fighters.

Methods of counteraction a month before the start of the SVO

A little more than a month before the start of the SVO, in the material dated January 12, 2022, it was published material “From the cannon to the sparrows: will micro-UAVs return the shotgun to the battlefield,” which examined the feasibility and effectiveness of using various types of smooth-bore weapons against small-sized kamikaze UAVs.

Here are a few quotes from that material:

“The noise immunity of satellite navigation systems is continuously improving, and at the final stage, micro-UAVs launched into the attack area via a noise-immune GPS channel will be aimed, using their own optical reconnaissance means, directly at the fighters, using image recognition...

Based on the foregoing, it can be assumed that as a means of short-range self-defense against micro-UAV-kamikaze, ground fighters can use smooth-bore weapons with special shot / buckshot striking elements.

Presumably, the maximum range of destruction of a micro-UAV from such a weapon will be up to 100 meters, and the effective range will be about 50 meters. This is quite enough, taking into account the fact that the UAV will have to carry out additional search and maneuver to hit moving and hiding targets...”

Yes, cases of FPV drones being damaged by shotguns are still few, but, most likely, this is the reason for the lack of these shotguns in supply to the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) in commercial quantities.

Using a shotgun against a drone: drone in the air (highlighted in green), shot, drone shot down (highlighted in red)

Our days

Now the facts:

1. Kamikaze UAVs are used extremely actively, their number on the battlefield and their influence on the course of hostilities is increasing all the time.

2. Presumably, kamikaze UAVs capable of attacking a person using a pattern recognition system have already appeared or are in the final stages of testing.

3. There are still no or very few adequate means of destroying small-sized kamikaze UAVs.

4. Shotguns were not supplied to the RF Armed Forces.

5. There are facts of FPV drones being hit by shotguns.

The question arises, what to do with all this?

And the answer to it is quite simple - to quickly purchase smooth-bore semi-automatic guns for the RF Armed Forces in the amount of several tens of thousands of units per year. In particular, this could be the “Special Carbine 18,5KS-K” product, which is essentially a version of the long-known and popular “Saiga-12” shotgun, “030” version, chambered for 12-gauge cartridges, adapted for law enforcement agencies.

Special carbine 18,5KS-K. Image roe.ru

The title of the article indicated the figure of 50 units - it was taken on the basis of open data on the productivity of the Kalashnikov concern, according to them, back in 000 the task was set to ensure the production of 2014 units per year, however, judging by everything includes not only all produced types of small arms, but also other products of the concern, but the year is not 150, but 000, and, given the events of the last two years, production should have been continuously increased for at least these two years.

In addition, there is also the “Hammer ARMZ” - the Vyatsko-Polyansky Machine-Building Plant “Molot”, which produces wonderful smooth-bore carbines “Vepr-12 Molot” VPO-205-00, comparable in concept, purpose and functional characteristics with the Saiga- 12" in version "030".

Smoothbore carbine "Vepr-12 Hammer" VPO-205-00. Image molotarmz.rf

Thus, it can be assumed that the indicated figure of 50 units of smoothbore carbines per year for the RF Armed Forces is quite achievable, albeit to the detriment of the civilian weapons market.

Why are so many smoothbore weapons needed?

If we extrapolate the situation with the saturation of the battlefield with FPV drones and other kamikaze UAVs capable of hunting even individual fighters, then very soon one attack aircraft, sniper, machine gunner, one ATGM crew (anti-tank missile system) or mortar crew will need cover from at least two fighters with shotguns, covering them from the attacks of these same drones.

Someone will say that it is wasteful to use so many fighters who do not directly influence the enemy, but if you do not provide protection from kamikaze UAVs, then they will quickly destroy an attack aircraft, a sniper, and a machine gunner, and will knock out ATGM and mortar crews calculations - yes, consider that this is a new type of combat unit and the required specialty - “short-range air defense (air defense) shooter.”

The range of kamikaze UAVs is constantly growing, so “trench air defense” will also be needed by units located deeper in the rear - artillery crews, multiple launch rocket systems, guarding jump airfields (for helicopters) and many other places.

The question is what to give to a fighter: conditionally - a Kalashnikov assault rifle or a smoothbore carbine?

Most likely, both – this does not mean that the fighter will have to constantly carry all this at the same time. For example, the crew of a self-propelled artillery unit (SPG) must have both an AK-74 to repel a possible attack by an enemy sabotage and reconnaissance group (DRG), and 18,5KS-K smooth-bore carbines to repel attacks from kamikaze drones.

What is now more likely to happen – to encounter a DRG or to have a kamikaze UAV arrive?

There is an opinion about the need to issue compact smooth-bore pump-action shotguns to fighters as a second weapon. This decision has the right to exist, like the same weapon attached under the barrel of the main machine gun instead of an under-barrel grenade launcher.

But such a combination of duties will also not always be convenient - a fighter engaged in combat work may simply “miss” the attack of an FPV drone, or it may be a sapper busy with the removal and installation of mine explosive barriers (EMD) - when he is looking at the sky ?

In addition, a compact smooth-bore pump-action shotgun or an under-barrel shotgun may have a barrel that is too short, providing counteraction to kamikaze UAVs only at a distance of tens of meters, and given the flight speed of FPV drones, reaching and even exceeding 150 km/h, this may already be the case few.

Compact smooth-bore pump-action shotgun and under-barrel shotgun for the Kalashnikov assault rifle

In general, in some cases, fighters should have both an assault rifle and a compact shotgun, in some cases, an assault rifle and a full-size shotgun, used alternately, and in some cases, only a smoothbore carbine as the main weapon (by the way, in this case a backup weapon could be something compact, made according to the PDW concept).

Not just a shotgun

Simply purchasing shotguns is not enough - you need to decide on sighting devices, which is better - an aiming bar that has proven itself effectively in fly-in hunting and clay pigeon shooting, which is as close as possible to the task of hitting FPV kamikaze drones, or will one of them perform better? model of a collimator sight with an open design and a wide field of view?

It is also necessary to decide on the optimal type of ammunition - select the optimal shot size, powder charge weight, and then begin their mass purchase along with shotguns.

By the way, magazines of increased capacity are also produced for Saiga-12; of course, it is not a fact that they are necessary, but it is quite possible to consider the feasibility of their use.

It is necessary to provide training for soldiers at the preparation stage, including during military service, by the way, this is clearly demonstrated once again the importance of the civilian weapons market and the popularization of shooting sports in Russia, in defiance of all evil spirits trying to eliminate civilian weapons in our country as a class.

Well, the most difficult thing is to carry out organizational measures in the RF Armed Forces aimed at implementing all of the above; as experience shows, it is bureaucracy that becomes the most difficult, often insurmountable obstacle to the introduction of something new.

In the meantime, we need to start at least with the purchase of smooth-bore guns and shotgun ammunition for them, at least in some form, under any pretext.

Conclusions

The need for protection against kamikaze FPV drones is extremely high today, and will increase even more in the near future.

A smoothbore carbine, rifle or shotgun can be effectively used to solve this problem, which is confirmed by practice.

Massive purchases of shotguns and ammunition for the RF Armed Forces are necessary, with concomitant changes in staffing levels, regulations and training programs for fighters, the introduction of new staffing units and adjustments to existing tasks.

Presumably, the most expedient solution seems to be to saturate one selected area on the line of combat contact (LCC) with shotguns first, instead of scattering them throughout the entire LBC. This will allow us to assess the degree of influence of this method of defense on enemy tactics and potentially create a window of opportunity for Russian ground units in the area.

Of course, the above measures to combat FPV kamikaze drones must be supplemented with means of actively countering other types of UAVs, as we previously discussed in the materials “Drones over the trenches: countering reconnaissance and adjustment quadcopters on the front line” и "Third Person Warfare: Drones vs. Drones".

The sky, almost completely cleared of all types of drones in any selected area of ​​the LBS, can create conditions for ground units of the Russian Armed Forces to conduct active offensive operations, break through enemy defenses and enter the operational space.

Comments

[alexoff]

with concomitant changes in staffing, charters and training programs for fighters, the introduction of new staffing units and adjustments to the tasks of existing ones.
This is an almost insurmountable obstacle, under these words those related to procurement for the army have been refusing any innovation for years. Longer ranged projectiles? No, we need to make new shooting tables and change logistics! New explosives? No, it has a different density, which means redoing the shooting tables, logistics are more complicated! After all, bosses have to think and do something, but they didn’t become bosses in order to think and do, quite the opposite.
As for the topic, shotguns should simply be issued to the fighters. In any case, a small proportion of enemies are destroyed with machine guns; you can even have shotguns instead of machine guns.
More technologically developed countries will give fighters shotguns, helmet-mounted tracking systems and augmented reality glasses that will show where the drone is and where to shoot. Even more advanced ones will purchase larger drones and teach them to fly and shoot FPV drones from shotguns in automatic mode. By the way, such a drone was made at the Moscow Aviation Institute in 2017.
https://topwar.ru/123469-mai-predstavil-ognestrelnyy-sobstvennoy-razrabotki-na-armii-2017.html
It flew, it worked, but like all developments of the tens (the Lancet is probably the only exception) it was lost into obscurity and now responsible people say that before the SVO no one knew about drones.
And the best solution is to destroy enemy air defenses, this will isolate the combat area and the drones there will quickly run out. And to organize the elimination of enemy artillery, since it is difficult to intercept a shell, and it will not be difficult for aviation to bomb the drone launch site, leaving the rest to shoot in flight.

[figwam]

Yes, I remember they showed this one. As one of the options for protecting units and facilities, why not.

[Passing]

Quote from alexoff

Even more advanced ones will purchase larger drones and teach them to fly and shoot FPV drones from shotguns in automatic mode. By the way, such a drone was made at the Moscow Aviation Institute in 2017.

You just took it right off the tongue! There is a widespread point of view that even the most advanced electronic warfare will not be able to reverse the total dominance of light drones, because drones with AI are on the way and will be invulnerable to any electronic warfare, and therefore everything will become completely bad, but for some reason everyone surprisingly ignores the fact that exactly the same drones with AI will clear the sky from hordes of enemy drones.
Those. everything will return to normal, everything will be approximately the same as with the evolution of the effectiveness of combat aviation - first an expensive prestigious toy with dubious effectiveness, then, upon reaching a certain technological threshold, everyone is so amazed by the current efficiency that it seems that it can replace everything, that it is an extra-system thing , an absolute weapon, then, as time goes on, countermeasures are developed in an evolutionary manner, non-obvious systemic limitations appear (for example, an exponential increase in price) and everything turns out to be far from rosy, and this type of weapon occupies the niche of just another means of fire destruction. And victory is still brought not by the wunderwaffe, but, as usual, by the same not obvious thing, like the superiority of the entire complex as a whole, the entire system, including politics and economics.

Quote from alexoff

And the best solution is to destroy enemy air defenses

This is why you need stealth. And there is no alternative to it. But for us, he played a secondary role at the conceptual level. The Su-57 is a sad example of this. The war drags on for years, but it’s supposedly not needed, supposedly “redundant”! Hand face! One hope is that over time they finally came to their senses, stopped talking nonsense about super-maneuverability as a key indicator, and finally, in the eleventh year of the war, they will at least finish the Hunter as a stealth striker.

[Alexey Lantukh]

The best alternative against a swarm of drones is a low-yield aerial tactical nuclear explosion. Even if the shock wave does not reach, the electromagnetic pulse will reset the control programs, and maybe even burn out the microcircuits.

[Alf]

Quote: Alexey Lantukh

The best alternative against a swarm of drones is a low-yield aerial tactical nuclear explosion. Even if the shock wave does not reach, the electromagnetic pulse will reset the control programs, and maybe even burn out the microcircuits.

What about your connection and your soldiers?

[Alexey Lantukh]

What about your connection and your soldiers?

We shouldn’t just wait for the swarm to reach our positions, but we also need to warn.

[Alf]

Quote: Alexey Lantukh

What about your connection and your soldiers?

We shouldn’t just wait for the swarm to reach our positions, but we also need to warn.

That is, you propose to constantly blow up the vigorous loaf? Or do you think that the enemy will warn in advance - Tomorrow at 12-31 in the Ivanovka-Panteleevka section I will launch a swarm?

[George Sviridov]

This is a good option, but then we need to change the doctrine to one where it will be written that nuclear weapons are conventional weapons that we will use against any enemy on the battlefield in any wars and local conflicts, just like any other.

[Alexey Lantukh]

Nuclear weapons are conventional weapons that we will use against any enemy on the battlefield in any wars and local conflicts, just like any other.

Well, maybe not nuclear weapons, but tactical nuclear weapons and use them by decision of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief against any military and infrastructure facilities of military significance. And imagine what if this law were adopted! Some people would have shit their pants already at the stage of the law.

[suban76]

The hunter has long been finished. The only question is production and price. The struggle of the Nanai boys under the rug continues to this day

[your1970]

Quote from alexoff

As for the topic, shotguns should simply be issued to the fighters. In any case, a small proportion of enemies are destroyed with machine guns; you can even have shotguns instead of machine guns.

As an old bureaucrat and hunter, I will tell you a global secret - I fundamentally NOT I'm hunting a goose. Because he flies at altitude in our area from 70 meters.
In principle, shot does not reach such a height (even from magnums), and buckshot is stupidly small and is on its way out.
And this alive goose - it flies slowly.
FPV-drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you for 1 (!!!!!) give me a sec.
And secondly, the use of shotguns against infantry was effective in WWII and WWII due to the lack of body armor and the trenches were full of infantry. AND cut back the firing range for your infantry is 50 meters by replacing machine guns with shotguns - utter stupidity, the enemy will stupidly clamp down with fire from 100 meters. He will also laugh...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: your1970

FPV-drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you in 1(!!!!!) second

Have you ever seen skeet shooting? But they fly no slower than drones, especially since operators aim targets; drones often circle around, sometimes hovering.
I have heard more than once that guys from vacation are bringing shotguns to positions.

[your1970]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Have you ever seen skeet shooting?

Moreover, I have a manual machine and shot a lot in 2010.
Only here’s a nuance - the drone flies not across but into the shooter’s forehead

Quote: Ingvar 72

Moreover, operators aim at targets; drones often circle around, sometimes hovering.

a distance of 100 meters vertically makes hitting with a shotgun impossible in principle. Even 70 meters - well, that’s it.

Quote: Ingvar 72

I have heard more than once that guys from vacation are bringing shotguns to positions.

AND ? What does this prove? They perhaps transported to clear premises during an assault - as they used in WWII - "trench brooms"
Yes, there may be an effect.
And drones, well...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: your1970

distance 100 meters

I recommend the TG channels Supernova+ and Bayraktar, where Ukrainians often post videos of drones hunting ours. There the speed and distance are small, 20-30 meters. And it doesn’t always fly head-on; the drones circle around obstacles. Not long ago there was a video where a shepherd saved our guys by grabbing an approaching drone. Died.
And you're talking about distance and speed...
P.S. During sweeps, shotguns are not used at all.

[your1970]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Not long ago there was a video where a shepherd saved our guys by grabbing an approaching drone. Died.

Well, if shepherds grab drones, then yes. This is serious....
And yes, I don’t watch Ukrainian videos and channels in principle:
1) I don’t want them to earn money from views.
2) It is difficult to distinguish truth from lies.

[Ingvar 72]

Our video about the shepherd was recently shown on many of our channels.
And it’s not difficult to distinguish truth from lies; it’s just that some people brush aside the inconvenient truth, which leads to more victims.
It was because of this that Murz (Andrey Morozov) shot himself. And Soloviev and other leavened “patriots” will never shoot themselves. Which blur out the truth in the best traditions of Vladimir Semyonovich’s song.

[your1970]

Quote: Ingvar 72

And it’s not difficult to distinguish truth from lies, some people just brush aside the inconvenient truth,

are you talking about now my posts about jambs USSR - about which people spit saliva "It didn't happen!!!"?
And regarding “it’s easy to distinguish” - they called a woman “Your son is in our captivity, your dog’s name was (and it was named correctly!” And the voice of the son with a groan behind the scenes. The woman had an acute heart attack. And the son came to vacation - I was not in any captivity of course.
That's it.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: your1970

Are you now talking about my posts about the jambs of the USSR - about which they are spitting saliva “It wasn’t like that!!!”?

You're jumping off again - we're talking about today. And no one denied the presence of the USSR’s shoals. Never. I have always said that the Union was more effective, more fair and caring for citizens than the current system of feudal capitalism. Factor of. You have always opposed those who criticize the current government, constantly mentioning the shortcomings of the USSR, often exaggerating.
Regarding “easy to distinguish” - I’m not a woman, and I have a critical eye.

[your1970]

Quote: Ingvar 72

You're jumping off again - we're talking about today. And the presence of schools of the USSR no one denied it.

Yeah, you personally, maybe not - the rest of us without exception!!! Would you like some quotes?

Quote: Ingvar 72

Regarding “easy to distinguish” - I’m not a woman, and I have a critical eye.

Without knowing you personally, I can’t say anything on this issue. The Internet is a thing in itself.

Quote: Ingvar 72

I always said that the Union was more efficient,

and where is it efficiency? Where is yours

Quote: Ingvar 72

critical view

in this matter?
Come on, everyone is biased and judges according to their own

[Igool]

and where is its effectiveness?

If we take the Stalinist union, then yes, it was more effective. However, the Stalinist development plan was destroyed by the corn creature, which hated I.V. Stalin and everything connected with him; therefore, the slogans were made ever larger, and the economy developed only in terms of gross product, which in no way made it possible to improve it, which in in the end it came to what we have.

[ANB]

. Your son is in our captivity, your dog’s name was (and it was named correctly!”

That's why I'm not on social networks.

[Arch]

Colleague, I would like to add that the plate beats even eight times because of the material from which it is made. And then the fragments continue to fly along the same trajectory. Buckshot, yes, there is enough energy, but already for fifty dollars, 8, which is 12 pieces, and even 6 can enclose a 5 liter bottle. In terms of protection against drones, the reincarnation of the ZPU can have an effect, but there are a lot of questions about all this... you can’t just solve it at once.

[your1970]

Quote: Arch

Colleague, I would like to add that the plate beats even eight times because of the material from which it is made.

Quote: Arch

And then the fragments continue to fly along the same trajectory

Well, at least 1 adequate hunter - the rest “We urgently need to give you a trillard shotgun!!” And then they will be hysterical - “The Moscow Region again spent money on this kind of garbage!!”

[Arisaka]

An important aspect is that the plate, like the duck, does not attack you. Secondly, you stand still, rested, joyful, with a steady hand. And if you miss, you will curse, break the gun, and then shout again - “COME ON!”
And, most likely, you trained a lot. Moreover, there is an opinion that shooting at clay pigeons greatly spoils the duck shooting skill - the speed is different, the lead is different.

Of course, it's easier to hit than with a bullet. And it is also clear that the lion’s share of hits is 20-30 meters on the same duck.

I don’t know how it will help a non-bird hunter when shooting at a flying drone.

[nickname7]

I don’t know how it will help a non-bird hunter when shooting at a flickering drone.

So the fighters are completely defenseless and are completely destroyed by drones, and with shotguns the chances of surviving are higher.
The drone buzzes loudly and several soldiers can easily create a sufficient density of shot cloud to destroy the drones. A plastic drone is easily destroyed or detonates.

[malyvalv]

I once trained on skeet games that fly straight at you. They imitate a bird flying through a clearing in the forest. When I picked up the gun for the first time, I hit with the third round.
Drones - drone fighters and electronic warfare are great, but a shotgun is needed as the last level of defense. FOR example, despite the fact that the ships are stuffed with anti-aircraft missiles, they always install a 6-barreled “metal cutter”. As the last level of protection if the previous ones did not work.

[your1970]

Quote: malyvalv

Drones - drone fighters and electronic warfare are great, but a shotgun is needed as the last level of defense

To do this, the shotgun must be in your hands 24/7. If it stands 5 meters away, you will not reach it...
The acute issue of response time is much more acute than that of downing weapons.

[malyvalv]

All war with an approximately equal enemy is a matter of reaction time. And with protection from missiles and shells and from any drones and not just FPV and from drone boats. Significantly sharper than having an impact weapon.

[nickname7]

To do this, the shotgun must be in your hands 24/7

The soldier didn’t go to the cinema, he went to war and holds a weapon in his hands 24/7, imagine.

The pressing issue of response time

Your hunting experience is 0, the drone is not a duck, the overweight FPV buzzes loudly, you can hear it in advance. There are drone radiation detectors.

[Maverick1812]

And we also pass on cartridges to those who brought a smoothbore gun from vacation. In the trenches they know exactly what is needed.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Your arithmetic is somehow really bad. Flight from a height of 70 meters, at an angle, at a speed of 100 km/h is approximately 3-5 seconds.
It's not for you 1 (!!!!!) give me a sec!

[your1970]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Your arithmetic is somehow really bad. Flight from a height of 70 meters, at an angle, from speed 100 km / h this is approximately 3-5 seconds.
It's not for you 1 (!!!!!) give me a sec!

from the article
"Given the flight speed of FPV drones, reaching and even exceeding 150 km/h, this may not be enough."
But God be with him - since you think that 3 seconds is a lot of things time - let it be so...

[alexoff]

Quote: your1970

FPV drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you in 1(!!!!!) second.

I haven’t seen drones dive like that, somehow they usually fly up from a low altitude. If you have better suggestions, it would be interesting to see.

Quote: your1970

the use of shotguns against infantry was effective in WWII and WWII due to the lack of body armor and the trenches being crowded with infantry. And to reduce the firing range of your infantry to 50 meters by replacing machine guns with shotguns is utter stupidity, the enemy will stupidly clamp down with fire from 100 meters. He will also laugh...

Have you decided to take my words to the point of absurdity? Take away the machine guns from everyone, melt them down, and leave the shotguns only with shot, without feathered bullets or flechettes. If a shotgun is in hand, and a machine gun is somewhere nearby, then in the event of infrequent assaults, the fighter will have more use with a shotgun.

[your1970]

Quote from alexoff

somehow they usually fly up with небольшой heights.

Reaction time will decrease multiples

Quote from alexoff

Take away the machine guns from everyone, melt them down, and leave the shotguns only with shot, without feathered bullets or flechettes. If a shotgun is in your hands, and a machine gun is somewhere nearby, then in case infrequent During assaults, a fighter will have more use with a shotgun.

Do you seriously believe that fighters will carry around more hardware that they may not need? often?

Quote from alexoff

If you have better suggestions, it would be interesting to see.

Unfortunately, there are no special offers except for air defense drones. Fully automated....
All other proposed prodigies are more targets for kamikaze drones.

[alexoff]

Quote: your1970

Response time will decrease by multiples

This somehow contradicts the laws of physics and logic. Does it fly slowly from a height at a speed of 100 km per hour, but quickly horizontally?

Quote: your1970

Do you seriously believe that fighters will carry around more hardware that they may not need often?

Where exactly should I take it? In your trench or where? It feels like we have some kind of spherical First World War going on with the sudden appearance of drones, and only from the enemy.

Quote: your1970

Unfortunately, there are no special offers except for air defense drones. Fully automated....
All other proposed prodigies are still targets for kamikaze drones.

So air defense drones are also targets. Let the soldiers fight as hard as they can, we can start putting visors on them, the Ministry of Defense will probably draw up a manual someday

[your1970]

Quote from alexoff

This somehow contradicts the laws of physics and logic. Does it fly slowly from a height at a speed of 100 km per hour, but quickly horizontally?

you indicated that they are attacking from small height- will you have time to react at 10-20m? At this distance, the buckshot is almost like a bullet; if you miss the 2nd shot, you will not have 200% time

Quote from alexoff

Where exactly should I take it? In your trench or where?

You will be surprised - but they go on attacks there. But even in your own trench, you will have to carry it around the clock 24/7 due to a possible arrival at any second.

Quote from alexoff

So air defense drones are also targets.

and a crowd of 2-3 shotgunners, for example, at a mortar, sharply increases the priority of the target for the drone by the number of l/s

[malyvalv]

Do you seriously believe that fighters will carry around more hardware that they may not need often?

If a sword saves your life only once, it's worth carrying it with you always.*

[not main]

I completely agree! Starting with the goose (I don’t hunt it for the same reason)!

[nickname7]

FPV-drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you in 1(!!!!!) second

The FPV carries a grenade from a grenade launcher, it is overweighted, it cannot fly from 100 km/h, and secondly, the operator will not be able to aim at a speed of 100 km/h. Even though you watch the video, the drone slows down and circles in the distance, it can be clearly heard and seen, some fighters are running around the tree trying to hide, and if they had a shotgun there is a chance to shoot down the drone.

[Good Evil]

Quote from alexoff

Even more advanced ones will purchase larger drones and teach them to fly and shoot FPV drones from shotguns in automatic mode. By the way, such a drone was made at the Moscow Aviation Institute in 2017.
He flew, he worked,...

This brings to mind Robert Sheckley's story "The Guardian Bird". For those who haven't read it, I recommend it!

[Last centurion]

Glasses, or rather an augmented reality mask, is a topic that the military will have to come up with. There should be a communicator, a built-in miniature drone search engine, at least a tweeter, a laser distance meter, a tablet with an electronic topography of the region and GLONASS for determining the location, a walkie-talkie, trackballs duplicated somewhere on the arms of the glasses or on the edges of the mask to control it. Or a sight a la like the smartgun Vasquez from Aliens. Modern technologies allow all this.

[nickname7]

You can also directly identify the drone operator by radiation and destroy it with artillery.

[Voronezh]

Special shots for under-barrel grenade launchers. Or, as a last resort, like rocket launchers, again with a special shot cartridge and not Saiga.

[fif21]

Quote from Voronezh

Or, as a last resort, like rocket launchers, again with a special shot cartridge and not Saiga.

Saiga is full of guano (operating experience). We need a vertical barrel unified for shot cartridges, bird cherry 7, rubber bullets, signal cartridges, we already have experience with a “Belka” barrel for a shot cartridge and a barrel for a small-caliber cartridge.

[ser580]

We need something that has already fought and is still fighting - multi-shot automatic shotguns. From a benelka next to an “experienced” hunter I knock out 20-22 plates - he’s 10-12, and if the raid is “sports”, then there’s no chance of breaks at all.

[Hey]

Special shots for under-barrel grenade launchers. Or, as a last resort, like rocket launchers, again with a special shot cartridge and not Saiga.

I fundamentally disagree, the grenade launcher and rocket launcher are a single shot. As an additional option - yes. (Last chance ). Weapons like "Saiga" are multi-shot, have a greater chance of hitting, and, in my opinion, are better for repelling a mass raid.

[paul3390]

As the owner of a Boar, I can say that a heavy shotgun with a short barrel is not the best choice for shooting offhand shot at a flying object.. Look at what shotgun shooters use - mostly horizontal. So - for such purposes, it would be better to have something like Murka 155... But it and others like them are hefty oars.

[Popandos]

As the owner of the Boar, I can say that a heavy idiot with a short barrel

Heavy to say the least, although my “Vepr” has a long barrel, you can shoot with the butt folded.
Verticals are for stand-up operators, on LBS, where the cost of a miss = life, I would prefer something with a magazine. IMHO

[paul3390]

I can also do it with a folded one, which is 01. But the really long one is Vepr 02, and even with choke tubes.. I can’t imagine what people do with such crap...

[Popandos]

This one has the shortest barrel 350mm
https://molot-guns.ru/goods/vpo-205-03.html
But it doesn’t shoot with it folded.
I have this one with 430 https://molot-guns.ru/goods/vpo-205-00.html

I can’t imagine what people do with such crap...

This is a ready-made zinite

[Arch]

We made a slight mistake: the stand was vertical. But this is so, a friendly clarification. In fact, the shotgun is for good luck.

[Passing]

A shotgun from a grenade launcher is the worst thing you can think of.
1) Insignificant shot flight speed (75 m/s), and the fundamental problems that follow from this are a gigantic lead when shooting, which with a machine gun gives you a chance to hit only at point-blank range, i.e. there will be exactly one attempt.
2) Standard sights are not suitable for shooting with lead.
2) The rate of fire is immeasurably more important than the power of a single shot (the number of buckshots in a shot). Even professional athletes are far from 100% able to hit a uniformly flying saucer that habitually flies along a targeted trajectory thousands of times. How can a fighter with hands trembling from adrenaline hit a suddenly appearing wobbling drone? The more attempts, the greater the chances of getting in, and the cost of a miss is not points, but life.

[bug120560]

You are completely wrong about the grenade launcher option. As the last weapon of defense
from a drone it’s just that. Only the grenade must be shrapnel. As for speed, try to calculate the grenade's flight speed in km/hour and compare the result with the speed of the drone.

[Passing]

Shrapnel grenade? With a fixed detonation distance? Why, how will this help? You don't seem to understand what the problem is with low speed
1) First, let's discard ballistics. Let's just imagine shooting in zero gravity. We mean that the drone does not fly directly to the target, but along a certain curved trajectory. In reality (YouTube to help) this is so, firstly, there is a certain turn in approach to the target, and secondly, there is often a significant “wobbling” of the device itself (due to turbulence, wind, lags in control channels and the human reaction of the operator). Now let's calculate at what angle of the drone's maneuver relative to the line to the target, it will not have time to fly beyond the shot dispersion cone. Those. we aim exactly at the target, without lead, and the target is guaranteed to hit the cloud of buckshot.
I derived the formula, use it: 20*sin(a)/D=V(buckshot)/V(drone), where D is the diameter in meters of the shot scattering circle at 10 meters. It is clear that the fraction scatters nonlinearly with distance, but I made such a simplification that the scattering grows linearly with distance. Total:
a=arcsin(a)=(D/20)*(V(buckshot)/V(drone))
If we take D = 0,3 m, (V (buckshot) = 75 m/s, V (drone) = 33 m/s (120 km/h), then we get an angle of a ridiculous 2 degrees. That is, if the drone is flying at the moment of the shot at an angle of more than 2 degrees relative to the line to the target, then it is guaranteed to come out of the shot cone. And for example, if V (buckshot) = 400 m/s, then the angle is already 10,5 degrees. That is, you can hit something that is already quite maneuvering drone
2) Now turn on gravity. Turn on the ballistic calculator. And we see that with a pellet mass of 1 gram, BC = 0,05 (and this is optimistic), a pellet speed of 75 m/s, we get a trajectory drop of more than 5 cm at 10 meters, more than 20 cm at 20 meters, 50 cm at 30 meters distance . Let me remind you that the diameter of the cloud of buckshot is 30 cm by 10 meters. Those. corrections are already needed, and significantly different for different distances.
But for a buckshot speed of 400 m/s, there is an insignificant drop of 3 cm at 30 meters. Those. the ballistic trajectory can be ignored.
Speed ​​is a key indicator; it radically simplifies the hit!

[Passing]

Wrong entry:
a=arcsin((D/20)*(V(buckshot)/V(drone)))

[bug120560]

No, not with a fixed detonation distance, but with a programmable detonation distance. If you are not aware, for more than a year now, on the basis of NPO Pribor, NPK Tekhmash (part of Rostec), a projectile control technology has been developed that can be used without significant modifications to the weapon. All that remains is to develop and launch mass production of grenades similar to the Swiss DM131 air-blast shrapnel grenades.

[garri-lin]

It is a shot to the grenade launcher. Or better yet, two. Buckshot and shrapnel with a half-second deceleration and a directed release of GGE. And the ballistics should be such that it would be possible to work from the main sight.
The possibility of using volumetric detonating ammunition may be considered. The shock wave from them, in theory, should simply demolish light and fragile drones.
Or just shoot with a net.

[sergey32]

Develop a projectile with some kind of substance that, when exploded, produces a large number of light, stretching threads hanging in the air for a long time, like a cobweb. Or equip it with ready-made threads right away. When the drone appeared, it fired a burst of something like an AGS or something else automatic, grenade launchers (i.e., the standard weapons of the unit) and a wall of threads appeared that would be wound around the screws. It is possible to use some kind of sticky aerosol that will clog the screws and stain the camera, etc.

[sergey32]

It seems to me that it is worth developing new means of detection and destruction for new threats. For example, to control the air situation at the tactical level, place radars on tethered balloons or UAVs so that they hang around the clock. Power supply and communication channels via cable from diesel generators. In the event of a cable break, provide for an automatic safe landing (release some of the gas from the balloon or release a small battery sufficient to land the copter). The higher the radar, the better it sees low-flying targets. Such radars will be clearly visible to the enemy, so they should be placed outside the range of enemy artillery and in such a way that they are covered by their air defense from anti-radar missiles and high-air missiles. Put some cheap beacons on your UAVs so that they don’t destroy your own troops.

[PavelT]

There was this idea (I saw it on zen.ru): take an ordinary glass for a signal flare (such as RSP-30 or more powerful) and modify it so that it is not a phosphorus ball that is fired, but weights that pull the threads. If they can fly 40-50 meters into the distance (up to 30 meters up), then they will be useful against copter-drones.

Unfortunately, they won’t protect you from aircraft type...

[alexoff]

A grenade launcher is one shot, it misses and that’s it.

[Voronezh]

That's one shot per person. There should be a cloud of coarse shot in the drone's path. And there, I suppose, either I got it from one, or as luck would have it...

[alexoff]

Then make an AGS with charges with shot, rather than having a squad shoot back somewhere there

[Voronezh]

1.Have you seen the AGS? If you saw it, then answer yourself - can you quickly change the angle and direction of shooting?
2. As you say AGS, this is for positional defense in the trenches, and the drone flies immediately and now towards a specific single fighter and he needs to protect himself.
But building an AGS, yes, it’s just right for the Moscow Region... Years of development, millions of money, exhibitions, etc....

[alexoff]

Quote from Voronezh

1.Have you seen the AGS? If you saw it, then answer yourself - can you quickly change the angle and direction of shooting?

Well, you can turn it quite quickly, especially if you modify it with a file

Quote from Voronezh

the drone flies immediately and now towards a specific single fighter and he needs to protect himself.

Well, one fighter in the field has such a chance, he can at least fire a burst from a shotgun, and a grenade launcher is not a very convenient thing, especially if it is always loaded with shot

Quote from Voronezh

But building an AGS, yes, it’s just right for the Moscow Region... Years of development, millions of money, exhibitions, etc....

Yes, in fact, like a new charge with shot into the grenade launcher. With manual control it will appear within a month, but on its own in about five years

[Voronezh]

Well, yes, in one hand there is an assault rifle and in the other a shotgun...... Does the fighter have the task of walking around the field and shooting at drones? Or is it still different?

[alexoff]

I have no idea what the fighter’s task is in the field. Give a fighter SPAS12, buckshot for drones in the left pocket, cartridges with feathered bullets for a shotgun in the right pocket, he may be able to fight back. If I were an American, I would propose to resurrect the OICW project, where there is a rifle and air-blast grenades, as many as five of them.

[dummy]

In the case of drones, the dam of bureaucracy was broken through volunteers; the army came to its senses using the example of their deliveries. This will not work with shotguns; volunteers will not be able to supply them due to the registration of weapons. We need a decision from someone from above.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Dummy

Volunteers will not be able to supply due to weapons registration.

Well, just 60 years ago anyone could buy a gun at a hardware store, and in order to get a hunting license, you had to show with your finger where the charge came out of the gun.

[Andrey Moskvin]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Anyone could buy a gun at a hardware store,

Life used to be up and down,
You are going without escorts...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Andrey Moskvin

You are going without escorts...

Hm... One year in the 80s I was carrying a gun. Oops... The dog is running... The guy grabbed the gun, took aim, my dad said, wait, it looks like she has a collar, don’t shoot. Stray dogs were shot anyway.

[your1970]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Stray dogs were shot anyway.

And then “White Bim - Black Ear” came out and people began to feel sorry for the dogs. And then dog hats came into fashion and people started yelling at the dog shooters that they were “Beasts, living souls for hats.”

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

And then dog hats came into fashion

I don't remember this. In the USSR I had a hat made from a rabbit, then from a fox, then from a muskrat. Some guy worked as a lumberjack somewhere in Siberia and sent us skins.

[your1970]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: your1970

And then dog hats came into fashion

I don't remember this. In the USSR I had a hat made from a rabbit, then from a fox, then from a muskrat. Some guy worked as a lumberjack somewhere in Siberia and sent us skins.

1980s - early 1990s. There was even a movie about something like it’s not good to shoot dogs for hats

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

There was even a movie about something like it’s not good to shoot dogs for hats

They would show this film to Koreans. As there was a football championship in Korea-Japan, they showed their store, there were dog carcasses lying skinned... Ugh, damn it...

[your1970]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: your1970

There was even a movie about something like it’s not good to shoot dogs for hats

They would show this film to Koreans. As there was a football championship in Korea-Japan, they showed their store, there were dog carcasses lying skinned... Ugh, damn it...

In the 1970s, our Koreans (on the issue of migrants - Koreans and Kurds in the Saratov region in the 1970s) treated my grandfather and me to dog meat - tasty meat if you don’t know.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

delicious meat if you don't know.

My dad ate dogs, but somehow I didn’t get the chance. I once treated the guys to goat meat stew, and they demanded more.

[paul3390]

Anyone could buy a gun at a hardware store

Well, you see - back then there was a terrible totalitarian society that fiercely oppressed the people and was terribly afraid of them... Not like today’s blessed democracy...

[your1970]

Quote: paul3390

Anyone could buy a gun at a hardware store

Well, you see - back then there was a terrible totalitarian society that fiercely oppressed the people and was terribly afraid of them... Not like today’s blessed democracy...

Then, even in the USA, no one could imagine that a MAJOR (!!!!) of the US Army would take pistols and start shooting at his colleagues in commercial quantities of as many as 35 pieces.
And in the USSR they started clamping hunting weapons in the 1970s. At first it was impossible to lock them on the wall - there was no current in the closet, then they came to safes. Naturally, everything depended on the local police - whether they were adequate or not.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

And in the USSR they started clamping hunting weapons in the 1970s. At first it was forbidden to clamp them on the wall in a closet, then they came to safes.

Just as they hit some minister in the Caucasus with a small coin, they started squeezing him.

[your1970]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: Dummy

Volunteers will not be able to supply due to weapons registration.

Well, just 60 years ago anyone could buy a gun at a hardware store, and in order to get a hunting license, you had to show with your finger where the charge came out of the gun.

In 1973, the district police officer demanded that his father-in-law hand over the gun he bought in the early 60s; he paid fees to the hunting society irregularly. Out of anger, the father-in-law bent the barrel to one side; it was a stupid force.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

In 1973, the district police officer demanded that his father-in-law hand over the gun he bought in the early 60s; he paid fees to the hunting society irregularly. Out of anger, the father-in-law bent the barrel to one side; it was a stupid force.

My uncle was imprisoned for stealing a collective farm TV in 1987. Nobody confiscated the gun; it was behind the closet until my other guy took it.

[your1970]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: your1970

In 1973, the district police officer demanded that his father-in-law hand over the gun he bought in the early 60s; he paid fees to the hunting society irregularly. Out of anger, the father-in-law bent the barrel to one side; it was a stupid force.

My uncle was imprisoned for stealing a collective farm TV in 1987. Nobody confiscated the gun; it was behind the closet until my other guy took it.

Everything depended on the district police officer - they were all different around the country....

[karabas-barabas]

And my stepfather got drunk, caused a lot of stress, in short, 2m 150kg strong men in armored armor, helmets and with an AK arrived..., they pushed witnesses, frightened aunts, some grandfather into the apartment in front of them. Then tough guys in armor came in, tied up my stepfather, and handcuffed him. Let's do a search, we found a gun, took it away, found hunting knives, broke everything. They didn’t find my air gun and my small revolver... because they didn’t look for it.

[fif21]

Quote: Dummy

This will not work with shotguns; volunteers will not be able to supply them due to the registration of weapons.

The Russian National Guard takes part in the SVO. Zolotov has thousands of these weapons in his warehouses! They destroy him. The circulation of these weapons is also in their department. I took out a license, bought a weapon, and handed it over to the “permits” with a note for SVO. And no problem

[Vladimir_2U]

It’s a rare case when the author proposed a completely sane and fairly easily implemented solution. Even if it's not original.

[bk0010]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It’s a rare case when the author proposed a completely sane and fairly easily implemented solution.

Insanity: the shot flies not far, but the UAV flies quickly. At 25 meters the scree will be normal, but at 50 meters there is a chance not to hit the UAV, even if it is in the cone of destruction. A container may improve the situation, but it is unlikely to be fundamental. In short, a person must have time to notice the UAV, prepare to shoot and fire one (he won’t have time to do any more) successful shot. I would like something that gives more chances.

[Marine engineer]

“..one (will not have time anymore) ..”
From the “five-shot” he will be in time.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: bk0010

Insanity: the shot flies not far, but the UAV flies quickly. At 25 meters the scree will be normal, but at 50 meters there is a chance not to hit the UAV, even if it is in the cone of destruction.

It’s good that they don’t read you on the line, otherwise they wouldn’t shoot anything down with shotguns, including double-barreled ones, but they shoot them down...

[bk0010]

I didn’t write that this is impossible. I wrote that we need something more effective.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: bk0010

I wrote that we need something more effective.

I can also write a lot of things, for example: “every fighter has an exoskeleton with a laser,” but that’s no use.
Here, not every fifth person has collimators, let alone auto sights, for example.

[your1970]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: bk0010

Insanity: the shot flies not far, but the UAV flies quickly. At 25 meters the scree will be normal, but at 50 meters there is a chance not to hit the UAV, even if it is in the cone of destruction.

It’s good that they don’t read you on the line, otherwise they wouldn’t shoot anything down with shotguns, including double-barreled ones, but they shoot them down...

Me Ingvar72 gave an example of shooting down a drone......shepherd!!!

Quote: Ingvar 72

Not long ago there was a video where a shepherd saved our guys by grabbing an approaching drone. Died.

And this is according to you effective and massive a way to fight drones?
Same with double-barreled guns - lucky.....

[air wolf]

If there is a call from the Russian Guard, I will gladly give away my Site-12s for free to the front, well, I’ll finally buy a horizontal from some grandfather.

[faridg7]

Quote: air wolf

If there is a call from the Russian Guard, I will gladly give away my Site-12s for free to the front, well, I’ll finally buy a horizontal from some grandfather.

So already go to the LRO, semi-automatic shotguns for the needs of the Northern Military District have been accepted from the population for probably a year now

[Andrey Moskvin]

the figure of 50 units of smoothbore carbines per year is quite achievable for the RF Armed Forces, albeit to the detriment of the civilian weapons market.

There’s a war going on, what the hell is the civilian market?!

[Kwasar9000]

Well, what are you saying, there is no war. And the SVO, it’s not regulated by any laws. And, in general, everyone is for world peace.

[Andrey Moskvin]

What are the First and Second Chechens called today? I remember how they were bashfully called WHO.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Andrey Moskvin

I remember how they were bashfully called WHO.

About five years ago, I got all my boots wet, going to banks and trying to exchange hryvnia.
The girls greet us: “Oh, you have euros, please go and change them.”
I shove the hryvnia into the cash register: “What is this?”

[Sancho_SP]

The main doubt is that the drone needs to be detected, then the coordinates must be transmitted to a fighter with a shotgun... and all this in seconds.
And if there is only one such fighter in the squad, then the squad should cluster around him and be a tasty target.

What is needed is something individual, or even better, something automatic. For example, a pocket interceptor drone, automatically launched from a backpack upon a signal from an electronic warfare system.

[MBRSS]

Quote: Sancho_SP

The main doubt is that the drone needs to be detected, then the coordinates must be transmitted to a fighter with a shotgun.. and all this in seconds.

That's it! Or even in a split second. If you watch a video of how drones attack, then in most cases a fighter with a shotgun will not have time to take aim, or even turn towards the drone. And then the task is not to hit your own people.
A grenade launcher that fires a metal mesh would be better. And shotguns are suitable for defending stationary objects.

[Vadim_2]

Problems with aiming can be solved by applying incendiary compounds to the shot, which makes it possible to track its flight and dispersion.

[KCA]

Fighters with shotguns will not at all uselessly wander around as part of a group, smooth ones shoot not only shot or buckshot, but also bullets, a skilled shooter from 70 meters will hit a full-length figure, and if the bullet is a zhakan or something like a Rubeykin bullet, then hitting any part of the body will incapacitate the enemy, or even permanently from pain shock, if the bone is smashed into pieces

[Vrotkompot]

The backpack for carrying drones should not be called “Gadfly”, but “Nest” or “Duplo”)))

[former soldier]

But a shotgun will be quite good in close combat and against infantry. It seems like a universal thing. The ammunition is just bulky.

[Passing]

Quote: Former soldier

But a shotgun will be quite good in close combat and against infantry

Buckshot does not penetrate either the helmet or the soft parts of the armor, which make up the lion's share of the armor protection area. And if the helmet has a visor... then you can immediately issue water pistols, if you can’t see the difference, then why pay more...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Passing by

And if the helmet has a visor... then you can immediately issue water pistols,

Well, well... Put on all this harness and ask your neighbor to shoot first with a water pistol, and then with a gun. I'd love to see this circus.

[Alexey Lantukh]

But a shotgun will be quite good in close combat and against infantry.

[Quote] [/ quote]
Squeak... squeak... here. I can’t... LOL... Yes, and the enemy won’t be able to attack. He'll fall over laughing.

[Bogalex]

Before rushing to purchase and distribute shotguns to personnel, it would be a good idea to first conduct practical shooting somewhere in the conditions of the Ministry of Defense training grounds, which is absolutely inexpensive in terms of money and time. And I do not rule out that there were similar tests, and the lack of supplies of shotguns to the troops may be due not to the inertia of the Ministry of Defense, but to their results.
The author associates the limited number of confirmed cases of UAVs being hit by shotguns with the low prevalence of the latter, but personally it seems to me that the root cause is not this, but the low efficiency of such shooting.
Small UAVs are very difficult to detect without special means. But if it is already detected, then it is much more effective to suppress it with electronic warfare means than to try to hit a high-speed airborne object with a gun, for which most likely you will need not one shooter, but the barrage fire of the unit, which, in conditions of a constant shortage of personnel, is an almost impossible task .
In addition, a shotgun almost completely does not solve the problem of combating UAV bombers, which are much more common and cheaper than FPV drones.
However, it would be stupid to deny the fundamental possibility of fighting small UAVs with shotguns. If they helped someone, then the remedy has a right to exist, but it seems to me that it is too early to elevate isolated positive cases to the absolute level.

[fif21]

Quote: Bogalex

Before rushing to purchase and distribute shotguns to personnel, it would be a good idea to first conduct practical shooting somewhere in the conditions of the Defense Ministry training grounds,

You are just a complete bureaucrat. Shot cartridges and weapons will either show their effectiveness or be rejected by the fighters. A “cloud” of shot or one bullet, which has a better chance of hitting the target?

[Bogalex]

In order to organize the delivery of a dozen samples of shotguns to the test site, purchase several UAVs, conduct experimental firing and process their results, it would take me, as a top-notch bureaucrat, no more than two weeks.
But you, I see, would rather immediately spend millions on the purchase, delivery to the troops and assignment to personnel of material assets of questionable effectiveness. And what will happen to all this later if it turns out to be useless, you don’t even think about it. Because, without bearing any responsibility for your words, it is much easier to post labels on the Internet than, as a unit commander, to think about what to do with and how to write off useless property, which, however, enterprising personnel will not try to use for other purposes than unpredictable consequences.

A “cloud” of shot or one bullet, which has a better chance of hitting the target?

The correct answer, which must be determined by testing, may greatly surprise you. Because between concepts hit и hit there is a quite noticeable difference. But most likely the result in both cases will be close to zero with a slight superiority of the shot at ranges of up to 50-100 m and a sharp loss of this superiority at ranges of more than 100 m.

[evgen1221]

Well, a drone hits a person at a distance of 0 meters. If he shoots down a drone at a distance of 0-20 m from himself, then he will complete the task. Here a shot to the grenade launcher with buckshot and a grenade on the barrel and a rocket launcher and a sawn-off shotgun will do. It is only important to detect the drone above the unit and issue it. This is where a reb and glasses will help.

[Passing]

Quote: evgen1221

If he shoots down a drone at a distance of 0-20 m from himself, then he will complete the task. Here a shot to the grenade launcher with buckshot and a grenade on the barrel and a rocket launcher and a sawn-off shotgun will do.

Have you ever been under adrenaline, for example in a fight or in an accident? The arms and legs are trembling, the vision is tunnel, everything is perceived as in a strobe... And the piece of hardware is heavy, has significant inertia, where is a computer machine... For a typical person, at a distance of 0-20 m, from a spinner, as in a counter, It’s unlikely that it will be possible to plant a headshot into impending death; you simply won’t have time to aim correctly. Even if death flies evenly and straight towards you (which is not the case in life; there are plenty of examples of this on YouTube). Only a trained professional can do this, and only when he is prepared in advance to repel an attack. Or by accident.
Distance is vitally needed. To have time to assess the situation, gather, aim, fire a shot, realize that you missed, gather even better, aim more accurately, shoot again... and the more such cycles there are, the greater the chances of staying alive

[Nikolaevich I]

Something here on the VO page is a lot of thoughtless “fans of shot and smoothbore”! I repeat once again... shotguns are a means that leads to a dead end! I do not categorically reject a shotgun, because it is at least “something” when there is nothing else! This is the "last chance" from despair! Therefore, let it be, if there is an opportunity to have it! But in the end, you will still have to “get” specialized weapons! It could be a rifle; but, for example, in the form of a “high-speed” small-caliber assault rifle (light machine gun) with a “computerized” sighting device (smart sight), perhaps with a light tripod! It could be like a mini-missile with a seeker ( such as "Pike", MNTK), and mini-drones-interceptors launched from the "hand"!
But this won’t “help” if detection tools don’t appear... compact, portable ones! Means of destruction alone are not enough! We need means of destruction and detection means in complexes and systems! These could be, for example, tethered or loitering drones with detection equipment!

[Arch]

Colleague, what 100 meters. A 5 at half throttle pierces the front wall of a 5 liter water bottle with a 50% probability. Goose has a deuce at 45 50. Fraction from 00 and above to buckshot - it will encircle the target further than 50 meters. There are successful shots at firewood, but the lucky ones out of 74 from the open one manage to shoot down. P.S. The author is not a hunter or a shooter. Otherwise I would have thought and tried it myself.

[Bogalex]

I in no way insist on the plausibility of the figure “100” - it was just an assumption, and with a strong “curtsy” towards the position of the author of the article.
I myself am not a hunter and have no practical shooting skills with such weapons.

[bk0010]

Quote: fif21

A “cloud” of shot or one bullet, which has a better chance of hitting the target?

The UAV is not a goose, it does not fly past, but attacks the shooter, the chances of hitting the target can vary significantly, but there is no practical difference (let’s say a burst from an AK will give a probability of hitting - 0.001, and a shot - 0.005, it would seem - a five-fold difference, but the result - one).

[hhurik]

Yes, caring people have already carried it out, on both sides - look for it on YouTube. Actually, everyone who has a shotgun is aware that its practical firing range is 35 meters. This is nothing in light of the issue at hand

They seem to be adults - do you think they are smarter than those at the front? Correct the crown, the sofa will be scratched.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: hhurik

Correct the crown, the sofa will be scratched.

The picture is crap, not a slingshot. We would not allow such a member into our company.

[hhurik]

Normal guys wouldn’t join your group on their own, because they’re a waste.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: hhurik

Normal guys wouldn’t join your group on their own, because they’re a waste.

We would have shot all your belongings to your bunch. Soft-boiled.

[hhurik]

Do these “we” have a power of attorney to broadcast? Present it. Maybe they were hanging out under the bunk all the time, and “we” were there too.

It’s not right for a holey person to rub against people, people will ask for such a thing. They will run the rooster among the vagabonds and put the rooster on a feather.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: hhurik

Maybe they were hanging out under the bunk all the time, and “we” were there too.

Have you decided to crumble a loaf of bread for me? You don’t justify your nickname in any way, Father Makhno’s Leva Zadov was a smart man.

[hhurik]

Oats don’t go to the horse, chop some more, strain for free The main thing is, don’t be nervous - your rectum will fall out. You see a lot of years, since you remember about Leva and Makhno, you probably caught Beria too, you need to protect your body from stress, radiation and morbid obesity.

[Passing]

Quote: Bogalex

in the low efficiency of such shooting.

Of course, there will be low efficiency, because buckshot is a bad solution for air defense problems. The main problem in anti-aircraft shooting with a straight-flying target is to take the correct lead. And with a maneuvering target, there is also an overlap of possible trajectories, and the greater the lag between the shot and the approach to the target, the greater the number of these trajectories.
Those. key indicators are projectile speed and affected area. With the affected area of ​​semi-automatic rifles everything is more or less, but with the speed something needs to be done. The only way out is swept-back feather elements. There are no cartridges with them. We need to develop it, we need to release it. We need special sights with a special stack. Without them there will be no point. We need to develop it, we need to release it. In our country, with the current bureaucratic system, all this will take years. The war will end sooner.

[fif21]

Quote: Passing by

We need special sights with a special stack. Without them there will be no point. We need to develop it, we need to release it.

Sorry, but your sofa is very far from the concept of skeet shooting (skeet), shooting at flying birds (duck, hazel grouse, black grouse...)

[Passing]

I'm not sorry. I know very well how athletes and hunters shoot, they aim not at a target, but along a trajectory, using the first method, catching up and overtaking the target along the trajectory, and shooting on the fly with a lead, or, using the second method, waiting in advance on the trajectory for the target to approach the lead point. But such a trick will not work with an fpv drone, because, unlike a saucer or a duck, it does not fly predictably straight, but rather intricately (not even because the operator is trying to depict an anti-aircraft maneuver, but due to technical specifics). Therefore, the second method loses its relevance altogether, and the first becomes radically more complicated. For it is one thing to smoothly move the barrel in a straight line, intuitively understanding the lead, and quite another thing to try to do the same with convulsive jerks with a maneuvering drone. That is why specialized sights were installed on anti-aircraft guns of the last war. They radically simplify taking a lead on a complex target.

[nickname7]

Small UAVs are very difficult to detect without special means

Just how easy it is to detect a drone buzzing loudly in tactical headphones is easy to detect in advance.

than trying to get into a high-speed air

He is not that fast; he flies heavily with a load.

[Nikolay Malyugin]

Or maybe involve ordinary hunters in the fight against drones. We have a lot of them in our country. Let them be on duty where there are strategic objects.

[odometer]

Legal status of such duty officers? Volkssturm? It’s as if there is no martial law.

[svp67]

Quote: curvimeter

Legal status of such duty officers? Volkssturm?

Security officer or private security company. Only the shotgun is good against small drones, it is useless against Geranium-sized drones. And the private security company already has anti-drone guns, they are both more effective and safer for destroying small drones

[your1970]

Quote: Nikolai Malyugin

Or maybe involve ordinary hunters in the fight against drones. We have a lot of them in our country. Let them be on duty where there are strategic objects.

You know a lot of hunters who want for days on duty? Not age - age reduces hearing, vision and agility in shooting (must be ready to shoot at any give me a sec)?

[svp67]

Quote: Nikolay Malyugin

We have a lot of them in our country. Let them be on duty where there are strategic objects.

Yes, such a shotgun is good against a small drone, and against a drone like our “Geranium”, it is certainly like “pellet to an elephant”...

[pavel.typingmail.com]

It would be necessary to organize stands for shooting skeet from shotguns in each district and train conscripts. Shotgun blasts are also useful.

[MBRSS]

The question is, what will happen when a reasonable and purposeful government structure with enormous financial and production capabilities gets down to business? For example, somewhere in China?

How many unified micro-UAVs-kamikazes with already built-in warheads, in compact housings, can they produce per year on robotic conveyor lines? Million? Five million? Ten?

Million. In a day. Well, or at least a week. This is the quantity that is needed now for the SVO. I believe Russia could produce such a quantity if there was political will.
And instead of equipping infantrymen with bulky shotguns and electronic warfare, each infantryman needs to be turned into a drone operator, sitting at a safe distance from the LBS. Safe in the sense - beyond the range of a small arms shot. We also need radio reconnaissance drones to search for enemy drone pilots. The war will finally turn into a war of drones and means to counter them, and the advantage will be with the one who rivets more drones faster and more and trains personnel to operate them. Here we need to hurry, since the West is more high-tech, and China is in no particular hurry to seriously help us.

PS I propose to promote the term “IDP drone” instead of “FPV drone”, so as not to click registers once again.

[your1970]

Quote: MBRBS

Million. In a day. Or at least a week

You are waving generously - at a cost of even 1000 rubles, which is absolutely unrealistic, this is a billion a day. Even with such a series, the cost will be 10 -15-20. And this is already comparable to daily pension payments of 000 billion a day.

[alexoff]

If we launch a million drones a day, the war will end in a week, I think Biden himself will go to Moscow to sign the surrender and agree to reparations and the lifting of all sanctions, they will dirty their pants with the entire Masonic lodge from such an unexpected turn

[Dutchman Michel]

Shotguns are just a temporary measure, something like crutches. I am sure that in the very near future a more effective antidote will be invented against drones. In the meantime, cheap drones from AliExpress are attacking tanks worth several million and no one knows how to resist them

[Monster_Fat]

The drone is seen only when it is already attacking, that is, on approach. The height reach of a 12-gauge shot cartridge is no more than 100 meters. In principle, it is enough to destroy a drone. And at this distance the drone can usually be detected visually. But the gun must not only be already at hand, but you also need to aim it, and the drone does not stand still - it attacks. I don't think destroying an attacking drone with a shotgun is an easy task, especially when conducting combat operations. But the most important thing is that the drone must also be detected! Detection of the drone is the most important task. And this task must be performed automatically, since there is no time and no one to constantly stare at the sky. Means for automatic detection and selection of drones must be developed first. And it is advisable to combine such detection means with automatic means of destroying drones. Only in this case will it be possible to talk about any effective protection against drones.

[paul3390]

The height reach of a 12 gauge shot cartridge is no more than 100 meters

This is if you shoot with a container, and even with all sorts of tricks like paraffin and a paper ring. Otherwise - 50 meters maximum. But what if you have to shoot at close range? Then such a container may not have time to open.

[Monster_Fat]

At close range, a drone is seen when it is already too late - it is approaching, under attack, there are only a few seconds to destroy it. What about a shotgun, something you always have at hand? In addition, some of the Drones do not attack, but direct artillery, mortars, their combat groups and they stay at a distance of about 500-1000 meters, how to shoot them down?

[Arch]

You can conduct an experiment: hang up a mock-up of a drone with a load weighing the same as FOG, place a camera next to it with a “carrot” for rapid shooting, and shoot from a fifty-dollar gun with different shot numbers and from different constrictions. A lot of interesting things will open up

[Passing]

Why come up with it, everything is obvious, offhand, a couple of things that are relatively simple and cheap to implement:
1) For all equipment, including unarmored vehicles - simplified and cheaper anti-drone KAZ (without radar, with optical detection by a neural network). But there are problems of a systemic nature, it can be developed, but the production will have a systemic flaw, because the components are available only abroad.
2) For support positions and equipment positions - massive forced use of a standard system made of a strong, but light (lightness and compactness are fundamentally important! Therefore, we make the mesh, for example, from SVMP) fine-mesh mask net (camouflage is also desirable in IR) with a standard system of light and compact spacers - stretch marks ala like on tourist tents. Massive means total, literally every meter of position. How is it different from a regular mask network? The regular one is not very common (and there is no question of covering something with it en masse), it is large-mesh, heavy, bulky, and does not necessarily have standard means of quick and easy tensioning. Therefore, in almost any video, the positions are bare, all targets are in full view, there are no obstacles. Drone paradise. What prevents us from deploying this system is a mystery to me; all the possibilities are within the country.

[steelmaker]

Political issues are resolved at the SVO. And when politics is higher than a person, a person’s life is the tenth. And the goal of the North Military District is to crush the Slavs, to populate Russia with Central Asia or Africa, and I admit that with the Chinese. In the West they do not hide the fact that Russia must be brought to civil war. And the authorities in Russia, well, maybe those close to the authorities, contribute to this. Therefore, what the author proposes will happen in two years, at best. Now we need to purchase these shotguns ourselves through volunteer organizations. But who will allow it? This is a weapon!

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: steel maker

And the goal of the North Military District is to crush the Slavs, to populate Russia with Central Asia or Africa, and I admit that with the Chinese.

The same thoughts come to me. Even the term fraternal people offends the ear - we are one people. And we are being destroyed. Watered with technology, weapons, everything according to the classics - divide and conquer.

[BAI]

A large caliber is needed so that the shot has a large supply of buckshot

[Ivan Seversky]

A shotgun, as an ersatz weapon of last chance, should be as light as possible. Something in the form factor of a sawed-off over-and-under without a stock, with a pistol grip.
And we need to test how much better this is than an automatic machine.
Ultimately, a person has no place on the front line, this is a matter for the next 10-20 years. at the front only as a mechanical technician for robotic systems, everything else is in the rear.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Ivan Seversky

in the form factor of a sawed-off over-and-under without a stock, with a pistol grip

And how many meters will such a “fart” (sawed-off shotgun) shoot? And so that the drone explodes next to the shooter....if it hits? And what will happen? "Seven troubles - one answer..."?

[Maks1995]

This is all only relatively effective, and ineffective globally, IMHO..
1) weapons for the population? what are you saying7
2) 2 weapons for fighters? money and weight, what are you talking about?
3) 3 make mini air defense out of half the fighters? not prudent
4) The low range of such mini-air defense is easily leveled out.
It is worth attaching (mounting) to the drone not an anti-tank charge, but a directed anti-personnel mine. With hundreds of needles that will strike from a distance of 150 meters across the area, without getting closer.
Or it will shoot off a light-noise charge before approaching..
etc.
Once the attack range increases, all those 50 shotguns will become ineffective...

[Peter85]

In my opinion, the shotgun is the wrong direction.
Drones have one weak point - their propellers. So I thought that scattered long threads of Kevlar (even several meters) could tangle the propellers. All it takes is one tangled propeller and the drone will become uncontrollable. Each thread may have a ball (weight) on both ends, some only on one, for vertical movement. Use the explosives in the grenade to spread as far as possible and spin completely. The goal is to saturate as large an area as possible. There are also threads with a diameter of 0,05 mm, so thousands of these threads could be placed in grenades. So Kevlar fibers can fill the projectile space (for underbarrel grenade launchers, classic grenade launchers), can also be used in hand grenades filled with Kevlar fibers, or even in mortar shells or perhaps exploding rockets, etc. d. d. In my opinion, when firing a grenade at a drone, the threads can become entangled in the propellers or wound around the shaft. The kinetic energy of the cargo can also have an effect (winding the thread quickly around the propellers can damage the drone). This system can be especially effective in quadcopters because it takes up a large surface area, and when threads get stuck on the quadcopter body, they are more likely to slip off the motor shaft and become tangled. All that remains is to decide on the strength and length of the threads, but this is a matter of testing. Obviously, all of this will work better with smaller (less powerful) drones.
However, there may be one problem here. If the threads are left alone, they can bounce off the top on contact and not become entangled in the propeller. But when they are connected in a very sparse mesh (large meshes desired), the reflection of one fiber will inevitably send a cross (or even parallel) fiber towards one of the other propellers, but probably at the bottom of the propeller due to gravity. propeller. and therefore to the propeller shaft and windings. The cascading effect should cause the drone to become completely jammed and then crash. So I would suggest filling the grenades with more threads with larger meshes and weights (quite light) in all four corners. Or a combination of individual threads and stitches. The placement of threads (nets) in the grenade, explosive charges, and weights of different weights should provide the largest possible coverage area and dramatically increase the likelihood of hitting the drone. The grenade explosion should occur above the drone. But in the case of a downward trajectory of the drone (especially during an attack), a mesh under the drone is an even better option; there should be a winding.
Considering the strength of Kevlar, this option should reliably knock even Bandera’s “Baba Yaga” out of the sky.

[Nikolaevich I]

Relying on shotguns as the main weapon against drones is a dead end! On the Internet you can find a video (though Ukrainian...) that shows testing the effectiveness of shotguns against drones...
Despite the conclusions of the “Ukrainians” that a shotgun can be used against drones, my “impressions” from watching the video of the “tests” turned out to be different! It was possible to shoot down a drone “motionlessly” (!) hanging in the sky with a shotgun with just a few shots! But try to shoot down an FPV drone rushing at you at full speed! It is necessary to develop “specialized” weapons against drones! Yes, and there are already “prototypes”! These are optical-electronic smart sights for rifles (you can also use “super-fast-firing” small-caliber ones like “American-180”)..., and 40-mm mini-missiles (“Pike” ' , MNTK), a fragmentation-beam with a proximity fuse, an "under-barrel" grenade on the GPR-20 "base", and a "reanimated" "Kolos", "hand-held" interceptor minidrones, and the like...

[Marine engineer]

But try to shoot down an FPV Drone rushing at you at full speed...

At dusk, during the evening flights, my father cut down ducks going “on the bayonet.” A good barrel, a good cartridge, a “steady” hand and the fighter will have an additional chance to save himself (his comrades).

[your1970]

Quote: Marine Engineer

At dusk, during the evening flights, my father would knock down ducks going “on the bayonet.”

The only question is breed ducks flying at speed from 100 to 150 km/h?

[Marine engineer]

Teal.
And yes, I know this comment is short.

[your1970]

Quote: Marine engineer

Teal.
And yes, I know this comment is short.

Well then you know at the same time that the fastest of the teals, the teal whistle, accelerates to only 109 km/h.
"The teal-whistle is the smallest bird of the duck family. The ducks got their name due to the light whistle they make. Their voice is clear and sonorous. These ducks are migratory birds. They permanently live only in Iceland, in the southeastern part America. Maximum speed - 109 km/h."
But we don’t have them here - unless your dad felled them in Iceland
And ordinary teals no more than 80km/h- which is practically twice as slow FPV of drones with their 150 km/h.
And yes, only 4 birds in the world accelerate faster than 150 mph

[Marine engineer]

The teal is a waterfowl from the duck family. Breeds in the northern and temperate climates of Eurasia, including almost the entire territory of Russia (with the exception of the extreme northern regions of Siberia)

[Marine engineer]

I didn’t know that my father and I hunted in Iceland, I always thought it was in the Northern Dvina delta.

[your1970]

Quote: Marine engineer

I didn’t know that my father and I hunted in Iceland, I always thought it was in the Northern Dvina delta.

and because of this she began to fly at a speed of 150 km/h?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Marine Engineer

felled ducks heading at the bayonet

Well, why confuse “a fork with a bottle”? It’s one thing when you know that a duck (teal) is not a threat to you, that it is your potential prey (“victim”), and not vice versa... and you have no reason to “point”! And another thing, when a real threat is directed against you, when there is no 100% confidence that you will “overwhelm” the target in time and you will “miss”! And one more thing... it’s one thing when you ambush ducks... and another thing when they ambush you!

[Dedok]

Quote: Passing by

Of course, there will be low efficiency, because buckshot is a bad solution for air defense problems. The main problem in anti-aircraft shooting with a straight-flying target is take the right lead.

Have you ever gone hunting?
for goose, teal, or just partridge???
if you didn’t go, then it’s not for you to give advice about anticipation
Also, you shouldn’t throw beads about 12 gauge: the target is sure to be hit at a distance of 30-40 meters. depending on many factors
those. 12 gauge is not a panacea
especially if it is given to an AK: the weight of the equipment is prohibitive - and shooting must be carried out short - i.e. everything will pass by

[Passing]

Quote: Dedok

Have you ever gone hunting?

Seriously? Well, let's play this game both ways. I have some kind of, albeit a sofa-like, but systematic engineering approach, various rifles and held and shot and hit (not at ducks, at targets). What is behind you? How many drones have you personally shot down with your gun? Oh, not drones, but ducks? So who told you that the tasks are similar, and your empirical experience can be transferred to drones?
I argued in detail theoretically (somewhere above) that there is nothing in common between these tasks. Now I will listen with real interest to your arguments, as a kind of practitioner.

[Maize]

War with robots...
Are the robots rebelling?
No.
When you are fired at from a firearm, do you knock down the bullets?
Don't knock it down.
Do you think it's impossible to shoot them down?
Artillery shells are shot down by C-RAM systems, but practically no one does this, because they are fighting with the ENEMY, and are trying to hit the ENEMY.
When you shoot down drones, you're not hitting the enemy, you're shooting down their projectiles, which is bullshit.
It is many times easier to hit a drone operator than a drone.
So there is no problem of fighting drones, there is ignorance of the military-political leadership.
Or sabotage is also a very relevant topic.

[restless]

"It's many times easier to hit a drone operator than a drone."
Well, you’re kind and a visionary, if that were the case, then drones wouldn’t fly. And how do you expect to hit the drone operator if he is in a bunker, dugout, dugout, or simply at a great distance. If it were easier to hit the operator than the drone, then they simply wouldn’t fly and there wouldn’t be any problems...

[garri-lin]

To defeat an attacking drone, you need to “meet” it with a dense stream of pellets flying towards you or with a strong shock wave. Distance 10-15 meters. A grenade launcher with a special shot will cope with this without problems.

[your1970]

Quote: garri-lin

strong shock wave. Distance 10-15 meters. A grenade launcher with a special shot will cope with this without problems.

and nothing will happen to the shooter from such a shock wave at 10 meters?

[garri-lin]

OD ammunition for a grenade launcher will not be able to create such a strong shock wave. To harm a person 10-15 meters away. But the drone will obviously get worse at 5. But for such shooting you need to take the distance into account. So buckshot or shrapnel look preferable for self-defense.

[your1970]

Quote: garri-lin

To harm a person 10-15 meters away. But the drone will obviously get worse at 5. But for such shooting you need to take the distance into account.

Do you see a dead end? You need to shoot within 5 meters in front of the drone - which is nonsense for the short attack distance of a drone - 50-70 meters. You will have time for 1-2 shots maximum. That is, this direction is a dead end

[garri-lin]

Hit a drone from 50 meters. And no need for wet dreams. The only thing is a shot from a dagger distance.

[Dekabrist]

Another portion of Mitrofanovism. The author was so “involved” in his wild fantasies that he did not bother to familiarize himself with the theory of the shotgun shot.
The number of people in the world capable of hitting a target like a flying "FPV drone" at a distance of more than 45 meters with a shotgun is not that great. Rather, there are very few of them. Moreover, these are, one might say, super-professionals such as multiple world and European champion George Digweed or one of the best shooters in the world Philip Thorrold. Moreover, it is clear that these people did not make their record-breaking shots from a “saiga-type oar” and not from a bulk cartridge from the Barnaul plant.
Therefore, all the fantasies described in the article are nothing more than another portion of steam in the whistle.

[zyablik.olga]

Quote: Dekabrist

The number of people in the world capable of hitting a target like a flying "FPV drone" at a distance of more than 45 meters with a shotgun is not that great. Rather, there are very few of them. Moreover, these are, one might say, super-professionals such as multiple world and European champion George Digweed or one of the best shooters in the world Philip Thorrold. Moreover, it is clear that these people did not make their record-breaking shots from a “saiga-type oar” and not from a bulk cartridge from the Barnaul plant.
Therefore, all the fantasies described in the article are nothing more than another portion of steam in the whistle.

And reading this nonsense, I thought the same thing.
Although I don’t hunt myself, I have been hunting with my husband many times. It’s not always possible to hit even a pheasant that’s taking off with difficulty, let alone drones when the shooter is in a stressful situation. It’s strange that adults, many of whom are also hunters themselves, are seriously discussing the latest nonsense.

[Puzoter]

I agree, here we rather need special ammunition for a short-range grenade launcher, such as a net with weights. The diameter of the net can be several meters, which will make it easier to hit, and together with heavy loads it will stop or throw off course any drone

[acetophenone]

Quote: paul3390

I can also do it with a folded one, which is 01. But the really long one is Vepr 02, and even with choke tubes.. I can’t imagine what people do with such crap...

Do they compensate for any problems?

[acetophenone]

But in essence - why all this chatter? A dozen privates, a dozen dischargers and a hundred or two different drones. And there is no need to rant about whether this wheel will reach Moscow, or whether it will be enough to reach Kazan.

[Puzoter]

A person with a shotgun in the noise of battle will not hear the quadric and most likely will not see it; we need compact OLS with AI, and at least just a camera with UAV recognition and alarm, at least a stationary one, or better yet, a helmet-mounted one. It is no more difficult to make than a UAV - the principle is the same: a camera and a recognition system.

[Arch]

Comrade Andrey (author). If you are not a hunter, I recommend shooting at plastic the size of a Mavik drone at a distance of 35, 40, 50, 60 meters, recording the number of hits and the resulting damage to the target. And only then advocate for the mass introduction of shotguns.

[Mikhail Maslov]

A new approach is needed, and it exists and is being successfully developed in the West. A laser installation with detection means.

[Modest]

Based on the experience of what we collected for the guys at the front through the Hansa. Firstly, Kalash-like variants like Saiga are unsuitable - you have to often hit the drone offhand and quickly manipulate the weapon - only the classics.
Secondly, multiple charges are very desirable, as is automatic. That is, if you can still manage to shoot accurately from the second barrel, then you may not have time to jerk the pump, aim again and shoot. Automatic machines work best, even MC 21-12. But they are also more demanding to maintain.
Third, cartridges. In some places they gave guns to the units, but damn, such cartridges don’t pass the RAV nomenclature! Patrick. Real shortage! Hunters have already noticed how Barnaul has disappeared or become more expensive in hunting stores - everything has been bought up by volunteers.

[Moore]

In the meantime, we need to start at least with the purchase of smooth-bore guns and shotgun ammunition for them, at least in some form, under any pretext.

They are already joining the troops. Here is the hochlodrone given to me. Everything is as it should be - runes, and holes from pellets...

[Alexey_Panin]

I dare to suggest the product KS-23. And it should be good against drones - it has a large-caliber rifled barrel, and, due to the wide range of available ammunition, it can solve a lot of problems, plus, it’s also good against manpower, even equipped with SIBZ.

[Sergei N 58912062]

1)Will a shotgun really be effective against FPV kamikaze drones? 2) A modern infantryman already carries a lot of equipment and ammunition. Plus a shotgun and ammunition for it. Perhaps a more correct solution would be to create special grapeshot ammunition for an under-barrel grenade launcher such as the M567 ammunition. Or fragmentation ammunition of the VOG type for an under-barrel grenade launcher. Plus cover with fighter drones. By the way, such a fighter drone was created in Russia and tested.

[Pancer_Hrek]

As an option, a light revolver-shotgun.

[Sergei N 58912062]

Quote: Pancer_Hrek

As an option, a light revolver-shotgun.

This “cut-off shotgun” can only “shoot down” FPV drones. What is the firing range of this "cut-off shotgun"?

[Pancer_Hrek]

What is the firing range of this "cut-off shotgun"?

I believe that several tens of meters?!!

This “sawed-off shotgun” can only “shoot down” FPV drones

Yes, of course, this is not a “universal Tukhachevsky gun,” but for a simple infantryman with an AK, having the ability to fight off FPV kamikaze drones is very important, and let special units fight the “bombers.”

[Sergei N 58912062]

What are several tens of meters if this “cut-off shotgun” does not have a barrel?!

[Dmitriy22]

Why does everyone limit themselves to 20th century methods? Against a high-tech product, a shotgun, the soldier’s eye, his reaction? You need to fight like with like. The simplest short-range anti-aircraft installation. Camera(s) from a smartphone, a servo drive, an automatic carbine with buckshot (shot) supplemented with a powerful laser pointer for blinding optics and software capable of identifying contrasting targets and aiming with shooting. It is placed in position and shoots everything that approaches through the air. Fsyo!

[Vlad is short]

Shotguns may well be effective, but only against a quadcopter, which is also not unimportant.

[senima56]

While we do not have (except for exhibition) shells with remote detonation, shotguns are an effective means of protection against FPV kamikaze drones! Yes, and with the advent (God willing!) of such shells, shotguns will not be superfluous!
By the way, it is not at all necessary that a self-loading model be used (they are capricious with cartridges); a pump-action shotgun is also quite suitable!

[bone1]

The author is fed up with his drones - turn on electronic warfare and they won’t fly - no matter

[ureport]

A grapeshot FOG with a pyrotechnic air explosion (you twist the spinner on the nose) at 20 - 40 - 50 - 80 meters should have been made a year ago! This is the perfect solution against Mavic! But no one bothered with the topic, just like the topic of factory resets on Maviks, for example, cumulative VOG. Of course, shotguns are a big topic; already six months ago they should have been in the Russian Army in industrial quantities. But I still think that net throwers are not less, but perhaps even more effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpblStj7zA

Imagine, soldiers are riding on armor, with net launchers in their hands, and they become living active defense of the tank. I’m not even saying that it’s possible to make an automatic multi-shot mesh launcher. But alas, people don’t give a damn, and this is the saddest thing you can see in a war, when a fighter tries to knock down the FPV with a snowball or a stick, the Party didn’t take care of him at all.

[your1970]

Quote: ureport

Buckshot FOG with pyrotechnic air blast (you twist the spinner on the nose) at 20 - 40 - 50 - 80 meters

and when a drone flies towards you at a speed of 150 km/h, you must also twist spout setting the detonation distance?????!!!!!
"Orriginal!!! (c) Pokrovsky Gate.
Would you also suggest taking notes on Lenin’s works at such a moment?

[ureport]

No, you don’t understand, grapeshot VOG is not against FPV, but against Mavik, who usually hovers over a fighter or trench and makes resets! Didn't read it carefully enough! But against the FPV there is a mesh thrower, with half a net area of ​​5 sq. meters at departure.

[bug120560]

I read the article, the comments to it, and I would like to advise the author, and at the same time those who share the opinion about the need for a shotgun in the army - “turn on” your head. They are not supplied to the troops and they are doing the right thing, I think that’s why.
- The range of aimed shooting with a shot cartridge is a maximum of 30 - 40 meters. Now think about what will happen to a fighter who at such a distance manages to shoot down a kamikaze drone that actually exploded above his head?
- The weight of all the weapons mentioned in the article is such that it makes their use, to put it mildly, uncomfortable even on a leisurely hunting hunt, let alone on the battlefield. So, arming a fighter with an automatic shotgun is still a “good” idea. Leaving a fighter with only a shotgun is guaranteed to make him defenseless on the battlefield.

[ureport]

The battlefield has changed! This must be recognized, and the soldiers must be given at least some adequate protection from modern weapons! Even competent assaults are no longer a shootout with machine guns, but first Arta, then FPV, a Mavik with a reset hangs over the dugout, and the attack aircraft come in to either finish off or take prisoner! A revolution has occurred on the battlefield, and the extremely clumsy Army mechanism cannot keep up with new threats and challenges!

[Fangaro]

In the meantime, we need to start at least with the purchase of smooth-bore guns and shotgun ammunition for them, at least in some form, under any pretext.

, in defiance of all evil spirits trying to eliminate civilian weapons in our country as a class.

And distribute it to citizens. So that the evil spirits would be exterminated.

Does the author convince us? Or the state? If it’s a state, then you don’t need to express your opinion at VO, but knock on the door of the Moscow Region, AP, Federation Council, and State Duma. Yes, at least to the Time program.
Here, neither Shoigu, nor Gerasimov, nor Putin and Peskov hang around reading the history of the author’s publications.

[Maxim Davydov]

Quote: Dmitriy22

The simplest short-range anti-aircraft installation.

It's strange that they are downvoting. And it seems to me that it will end up somewhere. Moreover, there are most of the elements of such a setup, and experimental combat modules, where it is all assembled according to this concept... Shilka or Derivation at minimum levels: detection at a distance of hundreds of meters, targeting, defeat at a distance of tens to hundreds of meters. With drone speeds of up to 100 m/s, the installation will have a few seconds for the entire cycle, which is quite realistic. What will be the means of destruction - shooting with bullets or shot, reb, laser or a combination of them - must be considered and tested. You can imagine options for infantry, armored vehicles, ships. Yes, this is not a barbecue or even a box of reb, it looks like research work for KBP or Burevestnik. But this is not a non-working crutch offered by the author.

[Esaul]

As a temporary solution, it may work, but in the future other drones must fight with drones in automatic mode.

[wlkw]

Quote: your1970

FPV drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you in 1(!!!!!) second.

2,7 seconds, however.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

His drones fly at a speed of 150 km/h.

[wlkw]

If we are talking about sports quadcopters, then it seems like yes, they fly. But they are just not there. You can’t fly like that with ammunition; in general, a quadcopter from an aerodynamic point of view is complete garbage. Here are drones based on an airplane design, they can fly quickly, but they are not widespread when compared with quads.

[agond]

It is impossible to hit a drone with a gun at 100 meters or more.... you need a portable anti-aircraft shotgun with automatic elements for aiming at the target and with automated reloading. Alternatively, you can use two barrels, one smooth barrel, and the second rifled (hunting rifles in 12 are known caliber, where one barrel is smooth for long distances, the second with rifling, rifling is needed to spin the shot charge, then centrifugal forces create an ideal scree at short distances), a double-barreled shotgun could shoot down drones from a smooth barrel at distances of up to 200 m, and from a rifled barrel protect yourself at short distances 20-50m

[your1970]

Quote: wlkw

Quote: your1970

FPV drones from a height of 70 meters flying at a speed of even 100 km/h will fall on you in 1(!!!!!) second.

2,7 seconds, however.

See, grab the shotgun, raise it, take the safety off, shoot.
Are you serious - can you do it in 3 seconds? But God be with him - let him...
Be glad that you hit it and see the explosion at 5 meters away...
You forget about the risk of the drone’s internals exploding from being hit, and about the minimum safe distance from yourself of at least 10 meters

[Dmitry Zadorozhniy]

Maybe just remember the experience of our ancestors? In the 70s, a lot of R&D was going on to increase the rate of fire. In particular, multi-bullet cartridges were tested. Resume production, and give the fighter one multi-bullet magazine (40vka or 60ku) at the exit. It is clear that Sib will not accept this. But does a drone need much?

[ada]

Quote: Dmitriy Zadorozhniy

Maybe just remember the experience of our ancestors? ...

I believe that this is possible, but it is necessary to return the principle of a full-fledged Armed Forces of the state (AF) with a modern scheme for wartime (Skh VV), that is, in this case, these are a full-fledged Army and Navy (in general), and everyone else works for them tirelessly. Then - yes, a full-fledged scheme of echeloned military air defense (air defense) is possible, starting with the grassroots or primary air defense of combat formations, let's say a separate squad or gun (installation, etc.), a line platoon and further, an even more complex multi-component model of weapons and military equipment , operating as a separate tactical unit or small group.
Well, what it will be - it doesn’t matter, the conditions will be created - there will be a lower echelon of air defense. Packages of multi-charge barrels (propellant charge/projectile/...) or a rapid-fire single-barreled weapon for military equipment, a hand-held portable missile system with a reusable control unit - guidance and replaceable units - inserts for the propulsion system and warhead (warhead), let's say a warhead with fireable striking elements, multi-bullet cartridges, as you reminded, or something else... Let our people come up with an idea, develop their own, look for the enemy and other “partners” - they will find them, but we need to create the conditions for this on a scientific and practical basis.

[squid]

Well, how much time does a hypothetical shooter have to aim and fire a shot, taking into account the speed of the drone? and how is he supposed to detect it - turn his head 360 every second? nonsense. whatever they can come up with, just to not do a normal all-angle show as it should be

[wlkw]

Now they have already begun to make individual indicators of the presence of drones. So there is progress on this issue.

[Oleg 1968]

Fresh "News from the Fields". OUR guys are asking for 16 gauge shot. They already have a two-piece. But we can’t help. The most dangerous drone raid: 10 drones in 10 minutes, 7 were shot down by rifle fire, three flew. The last truck in the unit (GAZ-66) was taken out and died completely. That's how she is. Soldier's life, Guys are not infantry. This is TODAY and NOW. But it’s easy to think slowly about everything. You can see better from the sofas.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: your1970

"Given the flight speed of FPV drones, reaching and even exceeding 150 km/h, this may not be enough."
But God be with him - since you think that 3 seconds is a lot of time - so be it....

150 km/h is 40 m/sec. And at this speed and at 70 meters, the flight altitude and attack at an angle of 30 degrees to the horizon is 140 meters or 3,5 seconds to the target. And at 100 km/h or 30 m/s 4,5 seconds to the target.
In 3 seconds you can fire at least 2 shots from a shotgun with a probability of hitting a target at this distance close to 100%.
In most cases, the drone will not be shot at by the one that the drone is hunting, and mainly by those over which the drone flies. The one that the drone is hunting will better run to cover.
At a high speed and angle of attack, the probability of the drone's FPV miss increases.

[your1970]

Quote: Kostadinov

In 3 seconds you can fire at least 2 shots from a shotgun with a probability of hitting a target at this distance close to 100%.

Yeah - when death flies in the face and adrenaline rushes....

[wlkw]

But there is no choice. Either you shoot or go into cover, if there is one. Not a matter of debate.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: squid

Well, how much time does a hypothetical shooter have to aim and fire a shot, taking into account the speed of the drone? and how is he supposed to detect it - turn his head 360 every second? nonsense. whatever they can come up with, just to not do a normal all-angle show as it should be

Why do you think that it will be easier for the FPV drone gunner to detect an infantryman than vice versa? The drone, among other things, emits a radio signal, but the infantryman does not. An infantryman equipped with a basic detection system will “see” the drone a kilometer or more away and approximately from where it arrives.

[Valery 1966]

There are helicopter mines. Based on this principle, we can make a device for shooting down drones. Only those that are low, for example, frozen for resetting the FOG. Directional microphone. Tuned to drone noise. We place a MON 150 mine in a 200cm hole and point it vertically upward.
The device detects the drone, the mine explodes and thousands of balls fly up to a height of 200 meters and hit the drone. Install near trenches.

[Vadim12]

Electronic warfare will not be able to counter autonomously controlled (AI) drones. Therefore, a shotgun is a great thing, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a regular drone or a super-sophisticated one with artificial intelligence. But hitting a moving object without training will not be easy.

[Consultant]

Quote: Vadim12

Electronic warfare will not be able to counter autonomously controlled (AI) drones.

Maybe if it's an anti-drone gun configured to target the camera.

[Xocelolprox]

Yes, they just can’t come up with anything.
Shotguns are a bad idea.
-No one will carry an extra barrel with them.
-It’s not even worth talking about an additional person, this is stupidity. It’s better to take an ordinary shooter, he will help in battle, and they will be equally effective against drones.
-The chances of being noticed and having time to shoot will be at the level of statistical error.
And so on.
The only way to fight at the moment is by reb. With the development of AI algorithms, some kind of kinetic weapons will be needed. But it must be fully automatic. At those speeds, ranges, and so on, you need automation with capabilities far beyond human capabilities. Or look for a way to cut off all electronics, like EMP, but this is already in the realm of science fiction. The future, where there will be 10 homing projectiles per soldier for pennies, is just around the corner.

[22 dmdc]

While you, respected here, are breaking spears, the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces have already decided to “keep in all departments the MP-135, MP-155 rifles, the Vepr-12, Saiga-12 carbines, as the shooter’s second weapon at a rate of one gun (carbine) to the department."

[Grigory T]

What about the Drone Fighter Drone?

[Height76]

Much has been written about shotguns and buckshot, but for some reason, even many hunters do not know about bound buckshot. Although this idea is more than a hundred years old.
The idea is to tie individual buckshots together with wire/line, etc. In modern realities, you can use an aramid thread that is stronger and more flexible to twisting and laying.

https://popgun.ru/files/g/21/orig/210694.jpg
https://img.allzip.org/g/11/orig/248444.jpg

And here it is enough to simply shoot in the direction of the drone. The probability of a drone becoming entangled in such a “web” is an order of magnitude higher than if a pellet hits it and causes critical damage.

[George Sviridov]

Probably, in some cases you can help, but in fact, in addition to a machine gun, you should also carry a shotgun... I think it’s unlikely that people will. And swapping an assault rifle for a shotgun is even more stupid.
As an option, grenades are nets for grenade launchers, but where the screws are protected this will not be effective.
Well, we need to improve our fire training skills. Soldiers must be trained to shoot at a drone. Develop targets and standards. And then play with the drone pilots - the drone pilot tries to aim the drone, the fighter tries to shoot it down. Expensive? Yes, but an experienced drone pilot and an experienced fighter as a result.

[nickname7]

In addition to the machine gun, you should also carry a shotgun... I think it’s unlikely that people will

Do you think it's easier to die than to carry a shotgun?
On a military chronicle there is a video of how a stormtrooper unit was destroyed.

[vvnab]

The best weapon against a drone is another drone!
That's how it will be in the end!

[wlkw]

Quote: your1970

Are you serious - can you do it in 3 seconds? But God be with him - let him...

And this, as they say, is a completely different topic, detection of flying drones and timely (instant) delivery of information “to the masses.”
In three seconds it’s already too late to rush around, and you won’t have time to crap your pants.
All these shooters make sense only if they are detected in advance, then there are at least some real chances of success.

[wlkw]

Quote: Georgy Sviridov

Probably, in some cases you can help, but in fact, in addition to a machine gun, you should also carry a shotgun... I think it’s unlikely that people will. And swapping an assault rifle for a shotgun is even more stupid.

I think so, (my opinion) shotguns are more for stationary positions, in cases where no one is wearing anything, and the fighter has a choice of what to grab onto. For a machine gun or shotgun. Should be good for gunners, drivers, duty observers, medics, etc. Or specially designated teams, "air defense against drones"

[wlkw]

Quote: Xocelolprox

-About extras the person is not even worth talking about, this is stupidity.

It’s a controversial issue, I think that the creation of “trench air defense” is inevitable. The only question is in what form this will be implemented.

[srha]

Hmm, how about counting? Detection time, reaction speed, time for aiming (look at the standards for shooting), striking radius, stopping impulse - against: sectors and detection distance, attack speed, movement impulse. Shotguns don’t even work against “lancets” (12 kg and 30 m/s), so you can accidentally reflect them if you were ready to reflect them from the direction of attack.
Therefore, in defense - protective nets and structures, in active defense and attack: gaining and constantly maintaining an advantage in the air with air defense systems at the level of large-caliber machine guns and small-caliber guns, and of fighter UAVs (are there any of those?).

[Alexander]

THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Radik Mukharyamov]

Under the USSR, homing weapons against low-flying targets were probably developed. I don't remember the name, old age is not joy. A homing heavy machine gun is much more effective than a man with a shotgun