What happened before Mannlicher? Werndl infantry rifle mod. 1867/77

46
What happened before Mannlicher? Werndl infantry rifle mod. 1867/77
Werndl Jaeger rifle model 1867/77. Performance characteristics of the Werndl-Golub rifle. Weight – 4,2 kg (M1877) and 3,35 kg carbine of the same year. The length of the rifle is 1 mm, the carbine is 265 mm. Barrel length 1 mm. Cartridges: 044x84,6 mm R, 11,15x42 mm R (model 11,15). The initial bullet speed is 58–1877 m/s. Bullet weight 445 g. Army Museum, Stockholm


"When I say 'new',
showed the dilapidation of the first;
and decaying and aging
close to destruction."
Hebrews 8:13

People and weapon. Not long ago, materials devoted to Mannlicher rifles appeared on the pages of VO. The topic aroused interest and will be continued as color photo illustrations are prepared, which are not so easy to obtain.



For example, I know a museum where the Mannlicher rifle of 1895 is on display, but the caption under it reads: “Berdan rifle” and some unimaginable years are indicated. And you can’t change your signature! The display case is sealed and can only be opened when the exhibition changes.

But be that as it may, work on the cycle continues.

But many VO readers turned to me with a request to tell me about the small arms of the Austro-Hungarian army that were in service before the adoption of the Mannlicher rifle. And yes, indeed, the rifle that was “before” is worth a separate story. So we fulfill their request.


Jäger Lorenz carbine 1854 Army Museum, Stockholm


Lorenz rifle. Caliber – 13,716 mm. Weight - 4,25 kg without a bayonet and 4,61 kg with a bayonet. Barrel length – 952,5 mm, total length – 1 mm. Length with bayonet – 335 mm. Bullet weight - 1 g. Powder charge weight - 815 g of black powder. The initial bullet speed is 29,1 m/s. Sighting range - 4,2 m. Museum of American stories, Washington

And it so happened that after the humiliating defeat suffered in the war against Prussia in 1866, the general staff of the Austro-Hungarian Empire finally realized that small arms needed to be taken seriously and modernized following the example of all the others.

And it is not surprising that the Austrians lost this war, because the Austrian troops then still used Joseph Lorenz muzzle-loading rifles, speaking with them against the Prussians with their rapid-fire Dreyse needle rifles. True, they were superior to the “needle guns” in shooting accuracy and range, but were hopelessly inferior to them in rate of fire. In addition, it was very inconvenient to reload them in the “kneeling” position, and it was completely impossible to reload them “lying down”.

All this led to large losses in manpower and ultimately to defeat in the Austro-Prussian War. It is clear that the Lorenz guns, which had been in service since 1854, urgently needed to be replaced with something more modern, and most importantly, rapid-fire.

(The following are photographs by Allen Dobress).


The Lorenz rifle's cap lock looked exactly like many other cap locks. The numbers “854” indicate the year of adoption - 1854...

And so, following the example of England, Russia and Spain, the Austrians decided that for the state treasury exhausted by the war it would be more profitable not to adopt a completely new rifle, but to convert the thousands of muzzle-loading guns in their arsenals into breech-loading ones.

The choice fell on the rifle of the Viennese gunsmith Franz Wenzl, who back in the 50s proposed a folding bolt (up and forward) and his own circular ignition cartridge 14x32 Wänzl RF, with a non-sheathed lead bullet with two flutes for internal settling and a blunt head. The barrel and trigger of the old Lorenz guns were kept unchanged, but a bolt box with a folding bolt was screwed onto the breech of the barrel.


Diagram of the Werndl design flap lock

And I must say that, in general, his shutter turned out to be a successful design. Moreover, it seemed so interesting to the military of different countries that it caused many imitations in the form of the Albini-Brandlin systems, Lieutenant Baranov (the rifle with his lock was in service with the Russian Imperial fleet, and we will definitely tell you about it someday), Milbank-Amsler, Tersen, Berdan, Allen-Springfield, Springfield 1871 and a number of others.

In total, more than 70 rifles were converted in this way, which made it possible to at least teach soldiers how to handle and shoot new weapons.


This is how this bolt was folded forward by the handle located on the right.

Remington rifles with a crane bolt were also tested in Austria, but the tests, in which Emperor Fratz Joseph himself took part, ended in failure for a number of reasons, and the American rifle was not accepted for service.


Joseph Werndl's shutter in the open state. To bring the rifle into combat-ready condition and fire from it, it was necessary to cock the hammer, then with the thumb of the right hand press on the bolt “ear” on the left and turn the bolt all the way to the right so that the hole in the chamber opens. The bolt was a cylinder with a recess for the cartridge, so in this position the cartridge could be freely inserted into the chamber. And the hammer, which was hit by the trigger, passed through the bolt itself. It also acted on the spring-loaded extractor, which, after the bolt was fully open, ejected the empty cartridge case from the chamber. This device made it possible to fire up to 20 rounds per minute, which was an excellent indicator for those years.


The cartridge is halfway inserted into the chamber

It was after this failure that Joseph Werndl (1831–1889), the founder of the famous and famous Österreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft from Steyr, appeared on the scene, proposing his design, created together with the engineer Karl Joseph Golub. The peculiarity of the bolt of this rifle was that the bolt did not recline, but rotated, and not on the transverse axis, like the Remington, but on the longitudinal one.

Tests of the new rifle were carried out at the Vienna Arsenal training ground by soldiers of the 21st Jaeger Battalion. And they demonstrated that the Austrian rifle was capable of providing shooting accuracy equal to that of the Remington.

Moreover, it turned out that it could achieve a rate of fire that exceeded the rate of fire of the “American” by 20% - a very high figure for that time. Naturally, good is not sought from good, and in 1867 the Werndl-Golub rifle was put into service under the name “Infantry rifle model 1867 caliber 11,4x50 R Werndl.


Josef Werndl's cartridge, like many rifle cartridges of the time, had a lead bullet wrapped in paper

Incredible but true: Werndl did not demand money from the state for the use of his patent. However, this decision was dictated not so much by patriotic ideals as by the realization that only he was capable of producing new weapons in the required quantity, of appropriate quality and in the time frame that would be required to equip the army and such territorial militias as the Landwehr and Landsturm.

That's how 600 Model 000 rifles were produced in infantry and ranger versions.


Werndl rifle frame sight


Cleaning rod, barrel and bayonet mount on the barrel of a Werndl rifle


Bayonet and scabbard


Werndl rifle bayonet handle


After the Werndl rifles were replaced by Mannlicher rifles, some of them were converted into hunting rifles

Moreover, the huntsmen’s rifles differed only in the pistol-shaped trigger guard. In 1873, an improved version of the M.1873 rifle appeared, and from 1877, to standardize the caliber of 309 M.000 and M.1867 rifles, it was changed to use the new M.1873 cartridge, better known as 1877x11,15R.

The Werndl rifles were removed from service with the linear units after the Mannlicher bolt-action rifles M.1886, M.1888 and M.1895 entered service. But during the First World War, due to a lack of weapons in the Austro-Hungarian troops, they began to be widely used.

That is, the situation with these rifles turned out to be similar to what happened in Russia with the Berdan rifles, which during the war, due to a shortage of modern rifles, were also transferred to army units, not only the second, but also the first line.


The bolt of a hunting rifle based on the Werndl rifle. Left view. Shutter is open
46 comments
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  1. +4
    8 March 2024 05: 33
    There is a magnificent, little-known, but very high-quality mini-series: "1864". I advise you to look.
    1. +3
      8 March 2024 06: 59
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      There is a magnificent, little-known, but very high-quality mini-series: "1864". I advise you to look.

      Thanks for the hint!
      Respect to Vyacheslav Olegovich, the article was a great success with a cup of morning coffee!!!
      Happy holiday to all our girls, where would we be without it!!!
      1. +4
        8 March 2024 07: 16
        I join in your congratulations, Vladislav! We will rejoice at their attention to our site.
    2. +3
      8 March 2024 07: 15
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      "1864".

      Thank you!
      1. +3
        8 March 2024 09: 15
        Oh, there were so many discoveries for me in this series! Especially the Prussian “hussars of death” delivered....
        1. +3
          8 March 2024 09: 25
          These are the Danes, Your Majesty, they feel, not think...
          - Bismarck's phrase from this series. How modern it is! And how they show the use of Krupp howitzers and Peksan guns! As is the use of percussion rifles and bayonets
  2. +4
    8 March 2024 06: 46
    As always, thank you, very nice morning and so lovely. The bayonet was impressive. Vyacheslav hi
    1. +4
      8 March 2024 07: 12
      The bayonet is truly impressive, but at that time the cleaver bayonet was common in many armies around the world.
    2. +4
      8 March 2024 07: 19
      Quote: novel xnumx
      The bayonet was impressive.

      At home I had a bayonet from a Chassepot or Gra rifle (they are very similar) - a real sword with a T-shaped blade. Just creepy. Together they mowed burdocks and nettles in the garden. And here’s what’s interesting: his handle is very similar to the handle of an Austrian bayonet, but... the “Austrian”’s is somehow rougher!
      1. +3
        8 March 2024 09: 23
        Well, so, the French... A sophisticated nation
        1. +3
          8 March 2024 12: 47
          Yes, no one there is sophisticated - then there was still cavalry, and taking into account the fact that rifles tended to be shortened, the bayonet was made longer. Only after World War I did they begin to abandon this practice. one of the last was the Carbiner 1 AZ for example.
  3. +7
    8 March 2024 07: 02
    I’ll add my 5 kopecks by citing the performance characteristics of the Werndl rifle mod. 1873-1877:
    Weight without bayonet - 4,2 kg.
    Length with saber bayonet 1749 mm
    Length without bayonet 1281 mm
    Barrel length 843 mm
    Barrel thickness at chamber 6,6 mm
    Barrel thickness at muzzle 3,8 mm
    Number of cuts 6
    The sight is designed for 2100 steps (Austrian step 75 cm)
    Caliber 11 mm
    Muzzle velocity 438 m / s
    Rate of fire up to 11 rounds per minute.
    1. -2
      9 March 2024 15: 32
      those. even an iron cuirass forged on both sides with silicon (no more than 2%: silicon steel)
      area 0,4 sq.m., thickness 4 mm, weight 12 kg
      - would firmly hold these heavy bullets even from 10 meters = reduction in losses up to 40%
  4. +3
    8 March 2024 07: 24
    I didn’t understand something

    The choice fell on the rifle of the Viennese gunsmith Franz Wenzl

    Diagram of the Werndl design flap lock

    Whose folding lock?
    And then some kind of transition
    Remington rifles with a crane bolt were also tested in Austria

    That is, first about conversion rifles, and then about new designs.
    But without mentioning on what basis this choice was made, on what basis these tests were carried out.
    1. +1
      8 March 2024 08: 32
      Quote: Vladimir-TTT
      But without mentioning on what basis this choice was made, on what basis these tests were carried out.

      Rifles separately - a separate testing topic, what is not clear?
      Quote: Vladimir-TTT
      on what basis these tests were carried out.

      Based on rifle shooting, of course!
      1. +6
        8 March 2024 09: 22
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, you made a mistake in the caption of the drawing. Instead of
        Diagram of the Werndl design flap lock

        need to write
        Diagram of the Wenzl design flap lock

        Therefore, the audience had questions.
        1. +5
          8 March 2024 09: 38
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, you made a mistake in the caption of the drawing. Instead of
          Diagram of the Werndl design flap lock

          need to write
          Diagram of the Wenzl design flap lock

          Therefore, the audience had questions.

          What disgusting stuff! After all, I checked it twice and still an error crept in. It's a shame, of course. But it happens. All that remains is to ask forgiveness from the readers who confused her and say... that such mistakes, alas, are inevitable.
          1. +4
            8 March 2024 09: 48
            What disgusting stuff! After all, I checked it twice and still an error crept in.

            Once upon a time there were editors for such cases, whose functions, among other things, included
            Checking and eliminating grammatical, spelling, punctuation and factual errors. ...
            1. +4
              8 March 2024 12: 25
              Quote: Dekabrist
              What disgusting stuff! After all, I checked it twice and still an error crept in.

              Once upon a time there were editors for such cases, whose functions, among other things, included
              Checking and eliminating grammatical, spelling, punctuation and factual errors. ...

              Once upon a time ...
          2. +7
            8 March 2024 10: 14
            And one more “typo that crept into the text.”
            Naturally, good is not sought from good, and in 1867 the Werndl-Golub rifle was put into service under the name “Infantry rifle model 1867 caliber 11,4x50 R Werndl.

            The M1867 Werndl rifle used the 11,2x42R - 11mm Scharfe Gewehr-Patrone M.67 cartridge.
            This cartridge is often erroneously labeled 11,4x50 R. Cases for reloading these cartridges are still produced today.
            Next was the 11x58R - M77 11mm Werndl Cartridge or 11mm Scharfe Gewehr-Patron.
            For the Extra-Korps Gewehr M1867/77 carbines, the 11,15x36mmR cartridge was used.
            1. +4
              8 March 2024 12: 24
              Quote: Dekabrist
              This cartridge is often erroneously labeled 11,4x50 R.

              Apparently, this error was exactly where I got it from.
            2. +2
              8 March 2024 14: 52
              Quote: Dekabrist
              The M1867 Werndl rifle used the 11,2x42R cartridge

              Quote: Dekabrist
              Next was 11x58R - M77

              But isn’t it the 11,15x42R (M67) and 11,15x58R (M77) cartridges? belay
              1. +2
                8 March 2024 15: 06
                11 mm scharfe Gewehr-Patrone M. 1877 is an Austrian name, they considered it possible to omit the fractions (see photo).
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. +3
                    8 March 2024 15: 31
                    OK then...

                    You, apparently, used to work in the police.
                    The major was expelled from the army for drunkenness, he decided to join the police. There they say to him: can you find fault? - But of course! I can! As you stand, your hands are at your sides! - No it's not that. Can you find fault with the pillar? - How can you find fault with a pillar? - Now Junior Sergeant Pytkin will show you.
                    Pytkin approaches the lamppost:
                    - You're standing, right? Whose land are you standing on? On the state. Once. You burn electricity, but don’t pay, two. Where do the wires go? Communication with foreign countries, three. Well, let's go to the department! Police resistance - four.
                2. +4
                  8 March 2024 16: 26
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  11 mm scharfe Gewehr-Patrone M. 1877 is an Austrian name, they considered it possible to omit the fractions

                  Okay...(11x58R) and (11,15x58R)! But why (11,2x42R) and not (11x42R) in fact request (11,15x42R) ?
                  1. +2
                    8 March 2024 16: 31
                    That's right, they worked. Now there is no doubt.
                    1. +1
                      8 March 2024 23: 03
                      ABOUT ! It’s interesting to observe how “offended people” pop up at VO... and try to express their dissatisfaction in a “jokingly ironic” form! On this occasion, for some reason I remembered an anecdote...: War. The enemy fired a torpedo at the ship... The captain calls the boatswain and asks him to somehow “calm down” the crew before the explosion. The boatswain gathers the crew on deck and declares that with the blow of his “dignity” on the deck he is capable of breaking the ship! And he demonstrates... there is a roar... the deck breaks... The boatswain floats... the cap swims up to him: YOU FOOL, BOATSWAIN! AND YOUR JOKES ARE STUPID! The torpedo passed by!
                      1. -1
                        8 March 2024 23: 07
                        ABOUT ! Interesting to watch

                        Keep watching. We will contact you.
  5. +2
    8 March 2024 08: 33
    Quote: Vladimir-TTT
    That is, first about conversion rifles, and then about new designs.

    Exactly. Everything is very consistent.
    1. +5
      8 March 2024 11: 08
      “And so, following the example of England, Russia and Spain, the Austrians decided that for the state treasury exhausted by the war it would be more profitable not to adopt a completely new rifle, but to convert the thousands of muzzle-loading guns in their arsenals into breech-loading ones.”

      “And I must say that, in general, his bolt turned out to be a successful design. Moreover, it seemed so interesting to the military of different countries that it caused many imitations.”

      “Remington rifles with a crane bolt were also tested in Austria, but the tests, in which Emperor Fratz Joseph himself took part, ended in failure for a number of reasons, and the American rifle was not accepted for service.”

      “It was after this failure that Joseph Werndl (1831–1889) appeared on the stage,”

      That is, they decided not to accept new rifles, but to remake existing ones.
      And they remade it successfully (according to the text of the article).
      Then suddenly tests of an American rifle.
      Well, we tried and tested.

      Maybe I’m finding fault with something or don’t understand something - but there is no logical connection of individual events in the article.
  6. +8
    8 March 2024 09: 37
    The choice fell on the rifle of the Viennese gunsmith Franz Wenzl, who back in the 50s proposed a folding bolt (up and forward) and his own circular ignition cartridge 14x32 Wänzl RF, with a non-sheathed lead bullet with two flutes for internal settling and a blunt head. The barrel and trigger of the old Lorenz guns were kept unchanged, but a bolt box with a folding bolt was screwed onto the breech of the barrel

    In Prussia, which captured almost 50 Lorenz rifles as trophies during the Austro-Prussian War, they decided that it would be inappropriate to throw away such a high-quality weapon and proposed their own version of the alteration. The rifle barrel was bored to a caliber of 000 mm and threaded, the stock was reinforced with linings and a needle bolt from the Dreyse Zündnadelkarabiner M/15,4 carbine was installed. The result was the Preußisches Zündnadel-Defensionsgewehr Ö/M (Österreichisches Modell) needle rifle (pictured), which was even used during the Franco-Prussian War of 57.
    1. +4
      8 March 2024 12: 11
      Very interesting comment. I didn’t know about this and haven’t seen a photo of this rifle... Thank you!
  7. +7
    8 March 2024 10: 28
    In 1873, an improved version of the M.1873 rifle appeared, and from 1877, to standardize the caliber of 309 M.000 and M.1867 rifles, it was changed to use the new M.1873 cartridge, better known as 1877x11,15R.

    But since there was still a significant supply of 11,2x42R cartridges in the warehouses, some of the rifles were left “in the old version”, marking the receivers with the mark “OR” - “Obsolete Patrone” - “obsolete cartridge”.
  8. +4
    8 March 2024 10: 36
    It will be more profitable not to adopt a completely new rifle, but to convert the thousands of muzzle-loading guns in the arsenals into breech-loading ones.
    Those are rednecks! After all, a small rifle compared to the price of the same fleet is pennies, but they still strive to save so stupidly! And they didn’t receive proper new rifles, and the old ones were ruined.
  9. +3
    8 March 2024 11: 22
    I would like to know, and the huntsmen's rifles differed only in the pistol-shaped trigger guard.
  10. +3
    8 March 2024 11: 25
    I would like to clarify what a “pistol-shaped trigger guard” looks like on a Jaeger rifle?
    1. +3
      8 March 2024 12: 12
      Quote: John22
      I would like to clarify what a “pistol-shaped trigger guard” looks like on a Jaeger rifle?

      You can see it very well in the photo! Look...
  11. +4
    8 March 2024 12: 16
    Quote: John22
    I would like to clarify what a “pistol-shaped trigger guard” looks like on a Jaeger rifle?

    In the first two photos to the article you can see a metal boss, apparently part of the safety bracket. It looks like this is what was meant. Difficulties in translation. wink
    But here is the caption under the first photo, where the barrel length is indicated as 84 mm, this is a jamb. fool
    1. +2
      8 March 2024 15: 25
      Quote: KSVK
      mm

      Without a doubt - centimeters, of course. But Decembrist has already written about the role of proofreaders in publishing.
      1. +2
        8 March 2024 20: 43
        Without a doubt - centimeters, of course.

        Millimeters. It’s just that you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, missed zero - 840 mm. Purely technical typo.
  12. +6
    8 March 2024 12: 28
    "An elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
    No clumsy heaps of plastic and alien, inhuman, unnatural forms, but only pure grace, which imposes clear obligations on the owner of this thing, so that he is worthy of it and with all reason can add the dignity of his weapon to his own advantages.
  13. +4
    8 March 2024 15: 05
    Joseph Werndl (1831–1889), founder of the famous and famous Österreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft from Steyr, appeared on the scene, proposing his design, created together with engineer Karl Joseph Holub. In fact, many weapons specialists believe that the rifle was completely developed by Karel Golub! And the name “Werndl-Golub rifle” (later became: “Werndl rifle...) appeared only because Golub worked for Werndl!
  14. +4
    8 March 2024 16: 20
    Vielen Dank, für diesen tollen Artikel. love
    1. +2
      8 March 2024 16: 55
      Vielen Dank für Ihre netten Worte!
  15. 0
    8 March 2024 23: 11
    But during the First World War, due to a lack of weapons in the Austro-Hungarian troops, they began to be widely used.

    That is, the situation with these rifles turned out to be similar to what happened in Russia with the Berdan rifles,
    According to some information, Werndl rifles were in service with the Ukrainian Sich during the years of the Ukrainian-nationalists’ struggle for independence!
  16. 0
    8 March 2024 23: 24
    In 1873, an improved version of the M.1873 rifle appeared, It was then that the trigger was moved from the right side position to the middle...; because It turned out that, being on the side, the trigger contributed to cracking of the stock!