Anti-aircraft weapons (AA): ground strike echelon of a “distributed fighter”

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Anti-aircraft weapons (AA): ground strike echelon of a “distributed fighter”

In the material HBTSS and PWSA network of satellites: “distributed fighter” could become a tool for gaining absolute air supremacy We examined the network of low-orbit satellites being built by the United States that are potentially capable of detecting aircraft of various types.

First, let's talk about the doubts that some readers have regarding the possibility of detecting objects such as an airplane in the air from space. In fact, the capabilities of modern infrared (IR) sensors installed in thermal imaging devices are very great.



Potential of IR sensors


A thermal imager, slightly larger than a power bank, is capable of detecting a person (namely detecting, not recognizing) at a distance of up to a kilometer, and a car at a distance of 2–3 kilometers. A high-quality civilian Chinese thermal imaging sight with a germanium lens with a diameter of 75 mm, placed on sniper rifles, allows you to detect a person at a distance of over 4 kilometers, and a car at a distance of over 10 kilometers. Do not forget that we are talking about the ground layer of the atmosphere - the most dense and saturated with water vapor, in addition, the capabilities of modern military American and European models can be 2-3 times higher.


Windows of atmospheric transparency in different wavelength ranges, for those who think that the atmosphere in general and clouds in particular are an impenetrable wall

There is a significant difference between target detection and recognition - it can be up to two or three times, but in the matter of detecting aircraft or missiles from space, high detail is not required; any object moving at a certain speed, with a specific thermal signature, is clearly not a car or anything -like this, especially in a combat zone. Even civilian aircraft can be eliminated using transponder readings from civil air traffic control systems.

Based on open data on the Internet, the AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical guidance system (EOTS) from the American F-35 fighter is capable of detecting the plume of a launching ballistic missile at a distance of up to 1 kilometers (at this distance, detection of group launches with target selection can also be carried out), and the enemy plane is at a distance of over 180 kilometers (of course, the projection of the body of the detected aircraft will play a role), again, all this is in the atmosphere, albeit at an altitude of about ten kilometers. Also, the EOTS AN/AAQ-37 of the F-35 fighter is capable of detecting pinpoint artillery and tank shots on the ground.


EOTS AN/AAQ-37 sensors (highlighted in green). US Air Force image

We should not forget that the weight and size characteristics of electron-optical aircraft guidance systems are very limited. Even the main reconnaissance equipment of a fighter - its radar station (radar) - has an antenna diameter of about a meter; as for EOTS sensors, the diameter of their lenses is unlikely to exceed several tens of centimeters - on satellites, IR sensors can be equipped with lenses with a diameter of up to a meter or more, or several IR sensors can be used simultaneously.

Satellites with large lenses and highly sensitive IR sensors, located in geostationary orbit, at an altitude of about 35 thousand kilometers, are capable of detecting the launch of ballistic missiles, and they could do this several decades ago, and since then IR sensors have become an order of magnitude more advanced . Satellites with the same or better sensors, located in low Earth orbit (LEO) at an altitude of about a thousand kilometers, will be able to see much more. Do not forget that up to an altitude of about 100 kilometers there are no obstacles to IR radiation at all.

Can we definitely say that the HBTSS and PWSA satellites can already detect jet aircraft in the air?

No, this cannot be said definitely, but the likelihood that they can already do this is quite high. Even if the HBTSS and PWSA satellites cannot do this now, they most likely will be able to in the future, as the system develops and new satellite packages are launched into orbit and network software is updated.

The emergence of such a system will greatly influence changes in the strategy and tactics of air combat operations, as well as on the design of promising combat and auxiliary aircraft. Anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs) will also change, in addition, completely new means of combat will appear, designed to work according to target designation from HBTSS and PWSA satellites, perhaps they can even be separated into a separate category - air attack weapons (AA).

Air defense and military defense


In fact, any air defense system operating in ambush mode can be classified as a defense system. However, in the absence of external target designation, the air defense system has to turn on its radar, albeit briefly, which allows the enemy discover the location of the air defense system and start hunting for it.

One can provide external target designation for air defense systems using a long-range radar detection and control aircraft (AWACS), which was recently demonstrated by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces), however, this carries certain risks for the AWACS aircraft, and not everyone has these machines. In addition, the AWACS aircraft is also forced to use its own radar, which unmasks it, which means the enemy can take countermeasures, even going so far as to try to hunt the AWACS aircraft itself.


For the United States, the interaction of AWACS aircraft with air defense systems has long become the norm

In the situation with the HBTSS and PWSA satellites, if global coverage of the entire surface of the planet is provided, it will be impossible to understand that at this very moment “your” aircraft has already been detected and the enemy is preparing to attack it, until the moment of detection by on-board self-defense means aircraft attacking anti-aircraft guided missile (SAM). At the same time, the presence of external target designation does not exclude the need for air defense systems to use their own radars when solving defense problems rather than attack.

This allows us to conditionally divide the tasks solved by the air defense system into air defense (air defense) and air attack.

The priority task of air defense systems is to ensure maximum protection of an object from air attack weapons; the priority task of air defense systems is to ensure maximum efficiency in destroying air attack weapons.


It would seem that the difference is small? But as they say, the devil is in the details.

For example, we have a missile-carrying bomber that carries in its compartments a certain amount of long-range precision-guided ammunition. Both the bomber itself and the ammunition in its compartment are air attack weapons. So, the task of air defense systems is to ensure the interception of all ammunition attacking an object in order to ensure its safety. At the same time, the task of destroying the bomber itself is not a priority. In turn, for anti-aircraft weapons there is no protected object; the main task is precisely the destruction of the bomber itself.

So wouldn't shooting down a bomber before it fires its precision-guided munitions save the facility?

Considering that the long flight range of high-precision ammunition and the bomber itself make it possible to attack the protected object from any direction, destruction of the carrier in this case will be possible only if it is possible to move the air defense system far ahead of the protected object, but then it is possible to cover only some then the sector, leaving the protected object defenseless from attack from other directions. As for closing the entire circle of 360 degrees, anyone can calculate how many air defense systems with a visibility of low-flying targets of about 20 kilometers will be required in order to close a circle with a diameter of about 1 kilometers.

In fact, for the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU), the use of air defense systems as air defense systems has become one of the most favorite tactics, allowing them to somehow combat the Russian Air Force (Air Force), which has significant quantitative and qualitative superiority.

Patriot air defense system as a means of defense


Most likely, the Patriot air defense system can already receive information from a network of HBTSS and PWSA satellites, just as it now receives information from American Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft, because network centricity is one of those areas to which the US Armed Forces pay increased attention. However, there is one caveat - the PAC-2 missiles, designed to hit aerodynamic targets at a range of up to 100 kilometers, are not equipped with an active radar homing head (ARLGSN), that is, they can only be used using the AN/MPQ-65 illumination radar, whereas PAC-3 anti-missile missiles are equipped with ARLGSN, but they are optimized for hitting ballistic targets, and their range is only about 20 kilometers.

Accordingly, it can be assumed that at the first stage the US Armed Forces will carry out a minimal modernization of the Patriot air defense system, creating a modification of the long-range missile defense system with ARLGSN - they have no technical obstacles to this; according to open data, such work is already underway. Target designation will also be provided based on data from the HBTSS and PWSA satellite network directly to the M903 launchers - there are several options here, target designation will be generated “above” or the command post (CP) of the AN/MSQ-104 battery will still be used, just transfer data between the control center and the control center will be carried out in real time through high-speed satellite communication channels.


CP battery AN/MSQ-104 from the Patriot air defense system

As a result, it will be possible to implement spatial separation of launchers and ensure their maximum camouflage from enemy detection means in order to use launchers from the Patriot air defense system in ambush mode to hunt enemy aircraft. Having received target designation, the launcher from the Patriot air defense system will release a missile launcher with an ARGSN into the area of ​​the predicted location of the target, after entering the specified area, the missile launcher will turn on the ARLGSN, conduct an additional search for the target and will correct its flight trajectory until the moment of hitting the target.

The next proposed modernization is the introduction of a two-way satellite communication channel into the missile defense system, which will allow for correction of the missile launcher’s flight path in the event of a sudden change in the target’s flight direction. Literally five to ten years ago this was extremely difficult to implement due to high latency in satellite communication networks, but the advent of high-speed broadband satellite communication networks such as Starlink made this task completely solvable, in addition, the size of ground terminals has decreased to such an extent that there are no more can fit in smartphones and smartwatches.

The above concepts for the use of air defense systems relate not only to the Patriot complex, it is taken only as an example, and also because these air defense systems are already present and actively used in Ukraine. In reality, all this is relevant for any air defense system that includes a missile defense system with an ARLGSN (at least in the future), and is also capable of operating via standardized NATO communication channels, for example, via the military tactical data exchange network Link 16.

Conclusions


One of the most serious problems of our country is not the lack of technology or equipment, specialists or competencies, but the huge number of “reality deniers.” Reusable launch vehicles (LV), conveyor production of satellites, unmanned boats (BEC) - kamikaze, FPV-drones, Stealth technology, laser weapon - no, it’s not necessary, it’s impossible, it won’t work, in general, the classic “this can’t happen, because it can never happen.”


How much we made fun of planes made using Stealth technology - they say how cleverly we “cheated” the Americans, forced them to spend huge amounts of money on developing stealth planes, and anyone can shoot down such planes, even an outdated air defense system, but reality shows that they can shoot down A properly used stealth aircraft is much more complex than a conventional one. Image by defenselink.mil

Moreover, denial often occurs not only at the stage when promising technology or weapons are still being created, but also for some time after. By the way, this is very clearly seen in the example of SpaceX, because it would seem that partially reusable rockets have already made hundreds of accident-free flights, there are thousands of private high-tech satellites in orbit, states and corporations are trying to create analogues (finally, it seems like it has come to us), but some, especially gifted individuals still try to deny what is happening.

Fortunately, the practice of “denying reality” is typical not only for our country, but also for most countries of the world, including the USA, but at least there is DARPA... In addition, there is the inertia of huge public and private corporations, often slowing down progress in the name of return on funds previously invested in certain technologies.

Detection of air targets from space and issuing target designations for them to ground, surface and air weapons is either already a reality or an inevitability of the near future.

Denial of this reality will only lead to our country lagging behind in this direction, to the loss of military equipment and pilots in future wars, but it is possible that during a special military operation (SVO), and in the future - to the loss of even the theoretical possibility of achieving dominance in air, including over its territory.
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  1. -4
    6 March 2024 05: 58
    civilian Chinese thermal imaging sight with germanium the lens

    Another “swift jack” from Mitrofanov.
    ps Germanium is a brittle, silvery-white non-metal. The crystal lattice of an allotropic modification that is stable under normal conditions is cubic, like diamond.
    1. +3
      6 March 2024 06: 45
      Quote: Amateur
      civilian Chinese thermal imaging sight with germanium the lens

      Another “swift jack” from Mitrofanov.
      ps Germanium is a brittle, silvery-white non-metal. The crystal lattice of an allotropic modification that is stable under normal conditions is cubic, like diamond.


      ...for the manufacture of thermal imaging lenses, a very expensive material is used - pure germanium, the main deposit of which in our country is located near Krasnoyarsk. To make one lens weighing 100 g, a 200-gram germanium blank is required. And the market price of optical germanium is $1800-2000 per kilogram. So the germanium lens turns out almost golden. For example, to see a person at a distance of 1 km, you need a lens with an input lens of at least 100 mm, which costs about $7000. Longer-range lenses cost $20 and up. Now the cost of the lens is approximately 000% of the cost of the entire device, another 45% is the matrix. It is not difficult to calculate the limits of the fall in prices for devices in the future - no more than 45%. Unlike matrices, germanium is not going to get cheaper...


      https://vkamishah.ru/product/germanievyy-obektiv-pulsar-f50/
      1. 0
        6 March 2024 13: 32
        Why don't you use a small lens at the focal point of a parabolic mirror?
        The mirror can be made from reflective material relatively cheaply.
      2. 0
        6 March 2024 14: 21
        Quote: AVM
        very expensive material - pure germanium

        Since when is it very expensive? I still have a box of germanium transistors lying around somewhere.
        1. 0
          April 8 2024 11: 34
          MP39, MP40, MP41? - I also started with them half a century ago during my school years. Twist the cap on one transistor and see how much of this germanium there is - milligrams.
    2. +6
      6 March 2024 07: 18
      The problems voiced by the author are real and very deep. Almost everything comes down to the country’s management system and the people who manage these systems, and if the management system turns out to be too complex for the one who manages it or he does not want to learn how to manage it, then he begins to simplify the system.
      If you compare the system of governing a country with vehicles, that is, for example, a scooter, a car and an airplane, and a person comes to govern the country who is not able to control such a complex thing as an airplane and does not want to study, or is not fit for health, but of course he will not refuse to manage it wants, then he begins to simplify the system and build a car out of an airplane and control the car. Then a person who can only drive a scooter comes to rule the country and he converts a difficult car into a scooter. This lasted for decades, and that is the only reason why in our country there is no auto industry and aviation industry capable of providing at least itself with cars and airplanes, and that is why there is a rejection of reality and all efforts are aimed not at correcting the real state of affairs, but at building a different reality.
      Well, in reality, a simple scooter-level complexity management system with people capable of managing only such a simple system cannot take the country out of the place where we really are, this is not realistic, we need a different system of governing the country and other people at the head of the country.
    3. +2
      6 March 2024 09: 32
      Agree. Objective lenses for the IR spectrum are made from single crystals of certain salts. Lenses are coated with varnish to prevent them from deteriorating from water vapor in the atmosphere. But that has nothing to do with this article. Back in the 90s, I was at a factory where single crystals of salt were grown from a melt, just for IR lenses. Long and expensive. I don't know the details and subtleties.
  2. -1
    6 March 2024 06: 13
    By the way, one of the serious advantages of the “Penguin” manufacturers’ plans was/is the possibility of receiving full-fledged intelligence information from the outside, processing it, and then... like I’ll defeat everyone!!!
    What and how... the system is being created, progressing, but not yet fully combat ready... but this is the question of what it can do now, in total, and what will happen in general???
    1. +4
      6 March 2024 07: 01
      In TG, the pilots have real, alas, bitter conclusions about what is written in the article. And events confirm that it already works.
      1. +2
        6 March 2024 07: 40
        One of the most serious problems of our country is not the lack of technology or equipment, specialists or competencies, but the huge number of “reality deniers.”
        . What is typical is that all the generals, everywhere, are preparing for the last war!!!
        And then the “unexpected” happens, to someone’s expensive cunning wisdom, an asymmetrical answer is found with the effectiveness of a CROWBAR!
        A simple question... what, before the enemy could not detect and track the actions of our aviation?
        The system of all ground services, air defense systems, is connected into one single, automated system for countering air attacks, and this did not start yesterday! This is expensive and difficult to implement so that everything works clearly and efficiently...
        In general, we need money and time!!!
        This path of development is followed by everyone who can afford it.
        Oh yes... as always, there will be methods against such a system, it has always been, is and will be.
        1. +2
          6 March 2024 10: 10
          In general, you need money and time

          First of all, you need brains and organization.
          So that we have our own analogue DARPA, preferably with greater powers.
          Which would model the long-term development of weapons systems and, based on its models, set tasks for R&D and production.
          1. 0
            6 March 2024 10: 12
            Politicians make all the final decisions and whose opinion they will listen to is a question, a question, and then another question?
            1. +1
              6 March 2024 10: 18
              In order for politicians to make decisions, they need analytics. Study the world experience, study the arguments of your experts. Assess cost-benefit. Consider alternatives. Conduct combat simulation. Do a bunch more similar things and only then, in a convenient structured form, transfer your calculations to the table of politicians for decision-making. And do all this constantly for all weapon systems in the complex

              But first, of course, you need to make a political decision to create such a body like DARPA. Yes
              1. +1
                6 March 2024 10: 30
                Nothing can guarantee the best, most correct outcome... although real high-intensity combat operations influence decision making the most. Life itself or war makes even the careless move.
                1. +1
                  6 March 2024 10: 32
                  Analyzing existing experience and not only your own is also a lot of work that needs to be carried out systematically and your models must be constantly adjusted. Yes
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2024 10: 37
                    Everything must be done wisely and honestly.
                    There are plenty of examples when exorbitant ambitions and desires in interested circles turned all analytics upside down... alas, alas, everyone has enough of this.
          2. +1
            6 March 2024 22: 29
            It’s usually like this with us - there is some research institute, so as not to close it, they give him a little money, just so that everyone doesn’t die of hunger. They do some work, something somehow works out. The Ministry of Defense then considers it for a long time, perhaps declaring that it will accept it for service. They tell journalists about analoguenet. But no one is buying anything, production is not preparing. This is more difficult and expensive, and our partners may decide that we have decided to start fighting tomorrow for our place in the sun, but we want an eternal 2007
        2. +1
          6 March 2024 14: 54
          Quote: rocket757
          The system of all ground services, air defense systems, is connected into one single, automated system for countering air attacks, and this did not start yesterday!

          Back at the turn of the eighties, the CIA and the Pentagon frightened the American Congress that the Soviet Union had a fully integrated air defense system. This is how they extracted funding for intelligence and defense - for the same stealth aircraft and so on.

          As it turned out only now, Russia does not have an integrated air defense system even in the third decade of the twenty-first century. The Irony of Fate.
          1. -1
            6 March 2024 15: 31
            We need to be more careful... the USSR had an air defense system of the highest level at that time...
            And now we have the consequences of 30 years of degradation of all institutions of government and at the same time we remain very strong and dangerous for our opponents.
            To catch up... management, control, and intelligence systems are going through a difficult path of restoration, development, modernization and will soon reach the required level.
            1. +2
              6 March 2024 16: 04
              Quote: rocket757
              We need to be more careful... the USSR had an air defense system of the highest level at that time...

              In theory, yes.
              But as soon as they tried to test its scheme in real battles, problems immediately began. The IA communication and guidance system, which worked ideally during exercises, became clogged with interference in real battles - and the interceptors, deprived of external data, detected the target only after the SPO was triggered. The forward-facing OVC radars, which in theory were viewing the entire surrounding area, came under attack from UAVs and anti-aircraft missile systems. And after the control center and communications center were disabled, the air defense system immediately broke up into brigades and regiments that worked autonomously. I’m not even talking about the problems of low altitudes - EMNIP, once during a Tu-22 exercise they managed to pass half of the border district unnoticed
              1. 0
                6 March 2024 17: 50
                About real fights, where have you heard or read this???
                About the exercises, approaching combat conditions... we saw, we smelled, we were present.
                The system was not ideal, it was constantly being modified, improved... that is, there was a natural process of development. Considering that no one had anything like this at all, then... however, our enemies/opponents had a completely different concept, not for defense... this is well known.
                1. 0
                  7 March 2024 10: 38
                  Quote: rocket757
                  About real fights, where have you heard or read this???

                  Syria. The country's air defense was built by Soviet specialists using Soviet patterns from Soviet equipment. And the potential enemy’s technique and tactics worked against it.
                  And the situation"Syrian fighters launch an attack on the demonstration group, at this time the ground detects an ambush group launching an attack on the Syrian planes, but cannot give a command center or at least a warning, because the communication channels are suddenly clogged with interference - and the Syrian vehicles come under attack"in the 80s was almost standard. This is exactly how the MiG-13.02.1981 was lost on February 25, 4: while trying to intercept an RF-15E reconnaissance aircraft, the plane was attacked by a pair of F-25A covering the Phantom, which had previously been on the MV. The Syrian TsUNIA saw The Iglov launched an attack, but at that very moment the communication channels were clogged with interference, and the MiG-XNUMX radar did not see the target against the background of the ground.

                  Just like the standard was the situation"the enemy approaches the target on the WWI, hiding behind the radio horizon, while at the same time viewing the WWI in the adjacent territory with his Hawkeye".
                  1. 0
                    7 March 2024 10: 56
                    There was a man who could tell/told a lot about Syria and others, although I had my own experience... not very pleasant.
                    In general, I won’t even discuss it; it wasn’t even close to what we had.
  3. -2
    6 March 2024 07: 07
    Creating a radar field over our planet is probably possible if the radar signal receivers are placed in orbit, and the transmitters are placed on disposable air carriers.
  4. +1
    6 March 2024 07: 29
    Can our planes also notice the torch of a launching rocket 1300 km away?
    I have already written about satellites in space with radars. Satellites in space can look millions of kilometers ahead. That no one will know there. As soon as the United States learned about the news about the shooting down of satellites, they began to get very worried. It may well be that the patriot has been receiving data about targets from space for a long time. The Ukrainian air defense system is not fully operational; the data is obviously being received from radars, possibly from space. If all the air defenses would have been destroyed long ago, they turn on the radars there. The launch of the rocket and the tracking of the rocket’s movement can be easily seen by the satellite
    1. 0
      6 March 2024 07: 33
      https://pandia.ru/text/80/199/1281.php Статья по радарам, америка давно работает над спутниками ХАБЛ
    2. 0
      6 March 2024 07: 39
      Can American radar satellites track submarines? https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1238496&full
    3. +1
      6 March 2024 07: 41
      L3Harris sensor satellite for medium-Earth orbit constellation has been tested
      https://vk.com/wall-198277814_44939
      The news is fresh
      The United States is already making the third generation of satellites to track missiles. And it may well include missiles, how can we explain that Ukrainian aviation is still intact? The last time they attacked with 9 planes. It's kind of hard to hide something like that.
  5. +1
    6 March 2024 07: 35
    Yes, it is true, denial is based on: fear, ignorance, fanatical loyalty to only one idea-theory (for example, jingoism). All this hinders the adoption of complex, calculated decisions, and therefore a successful development strategy.
    1. 0
      6 March 2024 08: 12
      Let me add that it is not only the factors you listed that slow down development. Development is also influenced by financing, the presence of a production and scientific base. The author of the article is right in many respects. The ambush method was used back in Vietnam, but nowadays, due to the progress of technology, it has become more effective.
  6. +1
    6 March 2024 08: 58
    One of the most serious problems of our country is not the lack of technology or equipment, specialists or competencies, but the huge number of “reality deniers.”


    As it was said before us: “Personnel decides everything”!
    on any issue that we are considering/discussing here, there is only one problem: these are the “personnel” assigned to make decisions “in this area”
    how to get rid of them...
    and on what basis should we look for new ones?
  7. +1
    6 March 2024 09: 00
    Quote: rocket757
    . What is characteristic is that all generals, everywhere,


    by no means, this is not always the case - example of Guderian
    and this example speaks volumes
  8. 0
    6 March 2024 09: 02
    Quote from Alexwar
    how to explain that Ukrainian aviation is still intact? The last time they attacked with 9 planes. TIt’s kind of hard to hide something.


    if there is something to “watch”, and if there is nothing?
    What if the budget is directed in a different, more “convenient/controllable” direction?
    1. -1
      6 March 2024 17: 16
      The explanation, in my opinion, is obvious: the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ aviation, converted to use high-precision missile weapons from Western countries, is deployed outside of Ukraine. Appears on the territory of Ukraine only before completing missions to launch missiles at certain targets. The calculation of targets is carried out by Western military experts.
  9. +1
    6 March 2024 09: 03
    Quote: Vadim S
    and so it is, denial is based on: fear, ignorance, fanatical loyalty to only one idea-theory (for example, jingoism)


    today there is another definition for everything you listed: LOYALTY!
  10. -1
    6 March 2024 09: 40
    One of the most serious problems of our country is not the lack of technology or equipment, specialists or competencies, but the huge number of “reality deniers.”

    I agree to all 100%.
    Remember the conversation from "Gentlemen of Fortune"?
    - Tell me, how much does this helmet weigh?
    - 5 kilograms 243 grams of pure gold.
    - Yes. Heavy hat.
    - Comrade Colonel! After all, this is a unique archaeological value. All evidence confirms that this is exactly the same helmet that was lost by Alexander the Great during his Indian campaign.
    - Slavina to me. Your finds had to be properly protected.
    - Ha-ha, but we had a watchman!
    - Watchman! For you it is of historical value, but for crooks it is just a piece of gold. They can saw it, melt it, and even sell it abroad...

    This is the existing reality for you, for me... For the fighters participating in the North Military District... And what is the reality for those who decided that a citizen of the Russian Federation can live on 16 a month, and the minister needs 000...
    * * *
    I have already read proposals on the topic of transferring the Defense Ministry and General Staff to Donetsk...Closer to reality...
    From the same topic that supposedly there is no point in destroying the leadership of the Ukrainian Reich...
    1. +2
      6 March 2024 22: 36
      Quote: ROSS 42
      I have already read proposals on the topic of transferring the Defense Ministry and General Staff to Donetsk...Closer to reality...

      This would save Donetsk from shelling; those on the other side are probably happy with our General Staff. I remember when Kherson was surrendered, in the West they began to write that there was no need to continue to advance, otherwise any leftist uncle would come and sit on the throne in the Kremlin, and everyone else would remain silent - they say it definitely won’t get any worse! And those who like difficult decisions are somehow more predictable and useful, because it’s already clear that the cards in their hands are normal, the hands of just the wrong person
  11. +3
    6 March 2024 10: 05
    As a result, it will be possible to implement spatial diversity of launchers and ensure their maximum camouflage from detection means

    This approach is used in the West even without satellites.
    For example, NASAMS 2 includes 6 AN/TPQ-64 radars and 12 launchers located on the ground. Failure of a radar or launcher does not disable the complex, and does not even noticeably change its capabilities.
    1. 0
      6 March 2024 11: 04
      Quote from solar
      This approach is used in the West even without satellites.
      For example, NASAMS 2 includes 6 AN/TPQ-64 radars and 12 launchers located on the ground. Failure of a radar or launcher does not disable the complex, and does not even noticeably change its capabilities.

      A lot can be said about approaches and concepts. But reading this author, including this article, I feel Spanish shame for Military Review.
      1. +1
        6 March 2024 15: 38
        I'm afraid I'll be wrong, but there was once an article about underwater aircraft carriers or something :)) There was something submersible, I remember. Either an aircraft carrier, or a missile cruiser with underwater air defense. :))
    2. +1
      6 March 2024 11: 21
      Quote from solar
      This approach is used in the West even without satellites.

      This is how we use it too. In military air defense. Which, after the well-known problems with the Kub/Kvadrat air defense system that emerged during the next Arab-Israeli war - when the failure of the complex's only radar rendered absolutely serviceable launchers useless - ordered the development of a new concept air defense system. Half of the launchers had their own radars (SOU), and the second could launch based on their data.
      1. +1
        6 March 2024 15: 34
        That's not quite right. They have 6 radars that are not tied to specific launchers. The radars create a common field with overlap, and any of the launchers, optimal from the point of view of range and launch conditions, can fire based on this data.
        1. 0
          6 March 2024 15: 56
          Quote from solar
          That's not quite right. They have 6 radars that are not tied to specific launchers.

          I'm afraid that this won't take off here. Because individual radars mean an increase in the number of equipment in the air defense system, which entails an increase in the number of l/s and an increase in the rear. But for obvious reasons, our staff is always reduced to the bare bones.
          1. 0
            6 March 2024 16: 10
            Quote: Alexey RA
            I'm afraid that this won't take off here. Because individual radars mean an increase in the number of equipment in the air defense system, which entails an increase in the number of l/s and an increase in the rear.

            In our country (say, on the Pantsir) this “won’t take off” for technical reasons. On an air defense system with radio command guidance, the launcher cannot be very far from the guidance radar. With other guidance principles - why not.
            1. 0
              6 March 2024 16: 26
              Quote: DenVB
              In our country (say, on the Pantsir) this “won’t take off” for technical reasons. On an air defense system with radio command guidance, the launcher cannot be very far from the guidance radar.

              By the way, why? No, on the old element base it is clear - when you have solid SCVT, analog circuits on lamps and mechanical scanning with a narrow pattern and mechanical rotation of the mirror (hello to the native S-125), then the calculation of correction signals for missiles, taking into account the separation of the radar and launcher and retention in the beam of a missile defense system with a large angular movement (and in general, simultaneously tracking a target and a missile defense system separated by a few degrees) is a problem.
              But given the presence of phased arrays and modern data processing equipment, what is the problem?
              Quote: DenVB
              With other guidance principles - why not.

              I don't shoot with radar guns! ©
              1. 0
                6 March 2024 16: 37
                Quote: Alexey RA
                But given the presence of phased arrays and modern data processing equipment, what is the problem?

                Theoretically, it is possible. But here the question is - why cling to this rather outdated principle of guidance at all?

                Quote: Alexey RA
                I don't shoot with radar guns!

                Electronics are getting cheaper quickly. Nowadays, radars are located at the entrances to supermarkets. Why not shoot them?
                1. 0
                  6 March 2024 23: 42
                  Quote: DenVB
                  But here the question is - why cling to this rather outdated principle of guidance at all?

                  What does "outdated" mean? Ground-based air defense systems with this type of guidance are capable of firing at targets on the move in any weather conditions. SAM systems with other types of guidance cannot do this today.
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2024 23: 49
                    Quote: Comet
                    What does "outdated" mean? SAM systems with this type of guidance are capable of firing at targets on the move in any weather conditions.

                    There are also disadvantages. Constant target illumination by radar. The radar is vulnerable to anti-radar missiles. If the target goes beyond the horizon or beyond the terrain, guidance is disrupted. Aiming accuracy is not sufficient for 'hit-to-kill'.

                    Not this way?
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2024 23: 57
                      Quote: DenVB
                      Quote: Comet
                      What does "outdated" mean? SAM systems with this type of guidance are capable of firing at targets on the move in any weather conditions.

                      There are also disadvantages. Constant target illumination by radar. The radar is vulnerable to anti-radar missiles. If the target goes beyond the horizon or beyond the terrain, guidance is disrupted. Aiming accuracy is not sufficient for 'hit-to-kill'.

                      Not this way?

                      You are replacing concepts. If the requirement is to fire at a target while moving in any weather conditions, then today it is the TU-1. What is the need for 'hit-to-kill' for this type of air defense system?
                      1. 0
                        7 March 2024 00: 10
                        Quote: Comet
                        You are replacing concepts.

                        I don't see where.

                        Quote: Comet
                        What is the need for 'hit-to-kill' for this type of air defense system?

                        If there are targets that require a direct hit to hit, and the guidance method in question does not allow for such a hit, then perhaps this can be attributed to the disadvantages of this guidance method?
                      2. 0
                        7 March 2024 00: 15
                        Quote: DenVB
                        I don't see where.

                        You have moved away from the requirement to ensure that targets are fired upon while moving.
                        Quote: DenVB
                        If there are targets that require a direct hit to hit, and the guidance method in question does not allow for such a hit, then perhaps this can be attributed to the disadvantages of this guidance method?

                        And those air defense systems that can hit a target with a direct hit can fire at a target in motion? If not, then there is no need to consider them.
                      3. 0
                        7 March 2024 00: 16
                        Quote: Comet
                        You have moved away from the requirement to ensure that targets are fired upon while moving.

                        I don't understand what you're talking about at all.
                      4. 0
                        7 March 2024 00: 21
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Quote: Comet
                        You have moved away from the requirement to ensure that targets are fired upon while moving.

                        I don't understand what you're talking about at all.

                        This is weird. We were talking about an air defense system capable of firing at a target in motion in any weather conditions. Today this is provided only by TU-1. Therefore, all the disadvantages of the TU-1 that you list do not make sense in this concept. There is currently no alternative to the TU-1 for such a concept. For these shortcomings to become significant, you will have to abandon the requirement of firing at a target in motion, i.e. change the concept.
                      5. 0
                        7 March 2024 00: 25
                        Quote: Comet
                        We were talking about an air defense system capable of firing at a target in motion in any weather conditions.

                        No, I didn't. I don't even understand what this is.

                        Can the S-400 fire at targets on the move?

                        But the American Aegis cannot fire SM-6 missiles at moving targets?
                      6. -1
                        7 March 2024 00: 56
                        Quote: DenVB
                        No, I didn't. I don't even understand what this is.

                        Thor and Pantsir are capable of launching missiles while the BM is moving. At the same time, their missiles are capable of hitting targets in any weather conditions. No one else can do that.
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Can the S-400 fire at targets on the move?

                        Can not.
                        Quote: DenVB
                        But the American Aegis cannot fire SM-6 missiles at moving targets?

                        Aegis is not a ground-based air defense system. It was indicated to me that we are talking about a ground-based air defense system.
                      7. 0
                        7 March 2024 01: 17
                        Quote: Comet
                        It was indicated to me that we are talking about a ground-based air defense system.

                        And I talked about the disadvantages of the radio command guidance method (which you call TU-1) in comparison with other methods, regardless of specific implementations. Note that I do not deny that he also has merits.
                    2. +1
                      7 March 2024 11: 15
                      Quote: DenVB
                      If the target goes beyond the horizon or beyond the terrain, guidance is disrupted.

                      When the target disappears, guidance is disrupted for the SAM/RVV with PARL guidance - they are guided by the reflected signal.
                      But for the RKTU, the presence or absence of a target mark does not matter - the missile goes to a point in space (“cross”), specified by the guidance cabin. And the task of the equipment or operator is to combine this point with the real target given to him in the form of a mark on the indicator. If the mark disappears, then switch to manual guidance - and the operator, using the handwheels, smoothly moves the cross to the point of the expected location of the target, taking into account the predicted change in range, azimuth and elevation.
                      If the target mark appears on the screen again - hallelujah, smoothly bring the cross to the mark and switch to AC. If not, we continue to fire the missiles blindly, hoping that the target has not radically changed course/altitude/speed, and that the range of the radio fuse and the dispersion pattern will be enough for the warhead to engage the target.
                      Actually, the ability to fire at invisible targets and jammers has always been a feature of the RKTU. The military department’s favorite story is about Egypt and the firing of the S-125 anti-aircraft missile system “in advance”:
                      Due to an unsuccessful choice of the anti-aircraft missile system’s position, the air defense missile system ended up with a shadowed sector, at the entrance to which and at the exit from which enemy aircraft left the affected area faster than the air defense missile system had time to work. After several such flights, the radar station determined the area of ​​exit from the blind area and the approximate time of flight through it. And during the next flight, they simply put a cross in this exit area and launched the missile defense system ahead of time, using a stopwatch - with the calculation that by the time the target “looked” to exit, the missile defense system would have already covered most of the distance to the target, the crew would have time to combine a cross and a mark on the emerging target, and the target would not have time to leave the affected area. The enemy did not use this technique again.
                      1. 0
                        7 March 2024 13: 01
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        But for the RKTU, the presence or absence of a target mark does not matter - the missile goes to a point in space (“cross”), specified by the guidance cabin.

                        Agree. But a similar algorithm can be implemented with other guidance systems, except in cases with fully autonomous missiles. For example, the S-200 had a launch mode at a target point with target acquisition on the trajectory.
                      2. 0
                        7 March 2024 15: 24
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Agree. But a similar algorithm can be implemented with other guidance systems, except in cases with fully autonomous missiles.

                        And that's how they work. Combined guidance has become the standard for long-range missiles and missiles with ARL seeker (and even medium - the same AIM-120). They travel most of the trajectory under the control of the ANN. If the target changes course/altitude/speed, then the carrier/control cabin, based on data from its radar or from third-party sources, processes trajectory correction signals and sends them to the rocket (RKTU in its pure form). And only when approaching the target, the ARL seeker is turned on and the target is captured.
          2. 0
            6 March 2024 23: 47
            Quote: Alexey RA
            I'm afraid that this won't take off here.

            Why won't this take off? Our air defense systems are built like this: command posts and air defense systems units (radar + several launchers).
            1. 0
              7 March 2024 10: 24
              Quote: Comet
              Why won't this take off? Our air defense systems are built like this: command posts and air defense systems units (radar + several launchers).

              One separate Radar on 4-6-8 launchers. Yes, this is the standard.
              And one separate radar is proposed for every 2 launchers. That’s why I write that we will most likely not approve of such extravagance - and they will immediately try to install a radar on one of the launchers of this pair, making it a traditional combined SDA. And the second PU will be made a “slave” ROM.
              Although they tried to introduce the 2S3M on-load tap-changer on the Buk-M9 and Buk-M36, as I understand it, it is more used for working on low-altitude targets. Moreover, the SOUs still remain
              1. 0
                8 March 2024 00: 55
                Quote: Alexey RA
                One separate radar for 4-6-8 launchers. Yes, this is the standard.
                And one separate radar is proposed for every 2 launchers.

                If you take the Buk-M2/3, then there is a SDA + ROM / PU, and the SDA is a radar + KP + PU on one chassis. Total: 1 radar, 1 control panel at 2 control points. It’s just that the radar is not all-round, but sector-view. But the Buk is an army air defense system, with its own unique capabilities that non-military medium-range air defense systems do not have.
        2. 0
          6 March 2024 23: 35
          Quote from solar
          They have 6 radars that are not tied to specific launchers.

          Attached. They call it a unit - a radar and launchers attached to it. Failure of a unit's radar = failure of a unit.
          1. 0
            7 March 2024 11: 17
            Quote: Comet
            Attached. They call it a unit - a radar and launchers attached to it. Failure of a unit's radar = failure of a unit.

            That is, it turns out to be another “Cube”, but only with a pair of launchers for one radar.
            1. 0
              8 March 2024 00: 34
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Quote: Comet
              Attached. They call it a unit - a radar and launchers attached to it. Failure of a unit's radar = failure of a unit.

              That is, it turns out to be another “Cube”, but only with a pair of launchers for one radar.

              KP (I forgot about it above), it has a radar, an optical-electronic post and, as standard, 3 AMRAAM launchers, 1 Sidewinder launcher. The CP has 3 channels for communication with similar CPs. As a result, all connected command posts have a single picture of the tactical situation.
          2. 0
            7 March 2024 14: 27
            They can work in different modes
            Fire Distribution Centers (FDCs) can form a network of geographically distributed sensors and use either centralized or distributed data fusion to process radar tracks and provide a complete picture of the airspace to the tactical control officer (TCO). [14] Each command post is equipped with two color displays with a mission-based Common Tactical Operations Control (CTOC) interface. [17] [18] The control system can be detached from the sensors to become less noticeable.
            Operators can switch to a centralized control role by running Operations Center (GBADOC) software.

            Each of the radars is capable of replacing the others. The fire control center can receive target designations from headquarters and issue data to individual launchers. All missiles can be fired at different targets within 12 seconds
            1. 0
              8 March 2024 00: 48
              Quote from solar
              They can work in different modes
              Fire Distribution Centers (FDCs) can form a network of geographically distributed sensors and use either centralized or distributed data fusion to process radar tracks and provide a complete picture of the airspace to the tactical control officer (TCO). [14] Each command post is equipped with two color displays with a mission-based Common Tactical Operations Control (CTOC) interface. [17] [18] The control system can be detached from the sensors to become less noticeable.
              Operators can switch to a centralized control role by running Operations Center (GBADOC) software.

              Each of the radars is capable of replacing the others. The fire control center can receive target designations from headquarters and issue data to individual launchers. All missiles can be fired at different targets within 12 seconds

              PU, radar and OEP are “tied” to the command post (FDC). But the command posts are interconnected, which allows them to have a single picture of the tactical situation. The command post fires at targets with its radars, special equipment and launchers. It appears that NASAMS does not have a correction line. In fact, NASAMS ensures the destruction of subsonic aerodynamic targets at medium and low altitudes. High-altitude, maneuverable, high-speed aircraft and ballistic missiles are too tough for him.
              1. 0
                8 March 2024 11: 41
                The command post fires at targets with its radars, special equipment and launchers.

                Target designation can come from the top level.
                It appears that NASAMS does not have a correction line.

                The peculiarity of NASAMS is that missiles designed for long ranges are used at medium ranges, comparable to the guidance range of their own seeker. The energy of a rocket at such ranges is also higher than at longer ones.
  12. -1
    6 March 2024 13: 59
    Now Timokhin will jump out of the bushes with his “mkrts legend” from the time of Gagarin and will hide an aircraft carrier in the ocean
  13. +1
    6 March 2024 15: 17
    One of the most serious problems of our country is not the lack of technology or equipment, specialists or competencies, but the huge number of “reality deniers.”

    Nowadays, almost the entire ruling class has an education either in economics, or in law, or in general in the humanities. Leading universities training personnel for the government are the Higher School of Economics, MGIMO and the Academy of Civil Service. You won’t find people with a natural science education or at least a high-quality engineering education there during the day. In the government, perhaps the only “engineer” is Shoiga (his first profession is a builder). The brightest head in the military leadership is tanker Gerasimov.

    And now this whole public decides what to spend our defense budget on. For radar reconnaissance satellites or for the construction of another pretentious Nakhimov school? What they will choose - the answer is a little predictable.
    1. 0
      6 March 2024 23: 43
      Quote: DenVB
      Nowadays, almost the entire ruling class has an education either in economics, or in law, or in general in the humanities.

      Not only here. This is a worldwide trend. Look at the history of the 737 MAX.
      1. 0
        7 March 2024 00: 06
        Quote: Comet
        Not only here. This is a worldwide trend.

        If you look at the United States, their “ruling class” is not only Washington politicians, but also the heads (and often co-owners) of the richest high-tech companies. And their intelligence and education, as a rule, are not bad. Musk is a physicist by first education, Zuckerberg is a programmer, Bezos studied physics, electrical engineering and programming, and since childhood he dreamed of space exploration.
        1. 0
          7 March 2024 00: 09
          Quote: DenVB
          And their intelligence and education, as a rule, are not bad. Musk is a physicist by first education, Zuckerberg is a programmer, Bezos studied physics, electrical engineering and programming, and since childhood he dreamed of space exploration.

          This is not the ruling class. Zuckerberg had long been told how his brainchild should work, and it began to work that way. As soon as the others get too “out of line,” they will be quickly brought back into it.
          1. 0
            7 March 2024 00: 13
            Quote: Comet
            This is not the ruling class.

            Controversial statement. People who move such capital and create such a part of the national income cannot but have an influence on political processes, even if this influence is not always obvious.
            1. 0
              7 March 2024 00: 16
              Quote: DenVB
              Quote: Comet
              This is not the ruling class.

              Controversial statement. People who move such capital and create such a part of the national income cannot but have an influence on political processes, even if this influence is not always obvious.

              And you will remember how Zuckerberg was reined in.
              1. 0
                7 March 2024 00: 18
                Quote: Comet
                And you will remember how Zuckerberg was reined in.

                You are talking about some momentary nonsense, but I am talking about how the nation as a whole determines development and investment priorities.
                1. -2
                  7 March 2024 00: 24
                  Quote: DenVB
                  You are talking about some momentary nonsense, but I am talking about how the nation as a whole determines development and investment priorities.

                  Generally? - look at the growth of US national debt. If you stop the growth of the US national debt, then everything there will collapse.
                  1. +2
                    7 March 2024 00: 28
                    Quote: Comet
                    Generally? - look at the growth of US national debt. If you stop the growth of the US national debt, then everything there will collapse.

                    I didn't suggest stopping him. Meanwhile, the United States remains the scientific and technological leader of the planet.
  14. AAV
    0
    6 March 2024 17: 26
    “A high-quality civilian Chinese thermal imaging sight with a germanium lens with a diameter of 75 mm, placed on sniper rifles, allows you to detect a person at a distance of over 4 kilometers, and a car at a distance of over 10 kilometers.”
    The pixel size of IR sensors today is 12 microns. When using optics with a focal length of 75mm, a non-civilian, non-military thermal imaging sight with such characteristics will not detect a person at 4 km...
    1. 0
      7 March 2024 01: 06
      When using optics with a focal length of 75mm

      So the author writes about the lens diameter of 75 mm, and not about the focal length.
      A lens with a focal length of 135 mm will fit the image of a person to 5 pixels in height, which is apparently enough for detection.
      1. AAV
        0
        7 March 2024 09: 38
        Lenses also have such a parameter as aperture, and this is the ratio of the focal length to the size of the input aperture (relatively speaking, the diameter of the lens). And this also affects the detection ability of the optical system. So a lens with F1.8 (as you suggest) will not be better than a lens with F1.0.
        And when calculating, you need to take into account not the height of the person, but the width at the shoulders. The critical size in this case will not be 1,75m, but 0,5...0,75m
        1. 0
          8 March 2024 05: 20
          Why are telephoto lenses made? And at the same time they sacrifice the relative opening. There are values ​​5,6...6,3.
  15. 0
    6 March 2024 20: 22
    The Americans have already made such missiles and given them to the Ukrainians. Nothing else can explain the downing of an A-50 250 km from the front line
    1. 0
      6 March 2024 21: 56
      Quote: AAV
      The pixel size of IR sensors today is 12 microns

      Yes, thermal imagers accept long waves, so there is no point in reducing the size of the pixels in the matrix, for the same reason it is impossible to create a small IR lens with high resolution. By the way, infrared vision is almost never found in the animal world, unlike visible light and near ultraviolet, the shorter the wavelength the greater the resolution of the eye and the more information it receives, so there is no need to focus on one IR, there are other ranges.
    2. 0
      7 March 2024 01: 09
      The Americans have already made such missiles and given them to the Ukrainians. Nothing else can explain the downing of an A-50 250 km from the front line

      Or maybe they really modified the S-200 missile?
  16. 0
    6 March 2024 21: 37
    Even during the battles in Mariupol, Edik received information about the approach of aerospace forces aircraft and the possible area of ​​their use without having air defense radars but having Starlinks. That is. the technology for tracking an aircraft from a satellite has already been developed, as exemplified by the two downed A50s.
  17. 0
    12 March 2024 14: 47
    For example, we have a missile-carrying bomber that carries in its compartments a certain amount of long-range precision-guided ammunition... the task of air defense systems is to ensure the interception of all ammunition attacking the object... the task of destroying the bomber itself is not a priority. In turn, for anti-aircraft weapons there is no protected object; the main task is precisely the destruction of the bomber itself.

    A missile-carrying bomber is a disposable weapon...
    It will only work the first time - when you need to launch a preemptive strike, after which they will immediately shoot you down...
    His task is to patrol along the US coast in neutral waters (as during the USSR) and, on the command “FAS”, fire rockets with a vigorous mother...
    And since the distance from neutral waters to “Los Angeles/New York” is small, let the air defense pin to the owls shoot down the “ammunition” on a hyper-speed carrier...
    It's time to understand that all these "swans" are not "weapons", but a threat of unacceptable damage...
    It was the “unacceptable damage” that held the United States back all these years...
    Now they have the illusion that a quick first strike on their part can give them a chance to win...
    However, the illusion is not without reason...
    Considering our heights in law...
  18. 0
    April 8 2024 11: 25
    Some stupid play on words...
    Air defense tactics have been called a new type of military...