The first Turkish fighter - and immediately “five”?

109
The first Turkish fighter - and immediately “five”?

The first Turkish fighter made its maiden flight. It happened on February 21 of this year, and only now will we try to thoughtfully comprehend what happened, because until that moment, apart from a joyful bacchanalia, there was nothing so meaningful in the Turkish media.

“A new titan rises into the sky”, “A modern sword for the Air Force”, “The shield and sword of the air frontiers”, “The country’s entry into advanced military technologies” and so on. It must be said that the Turks know how to rejoice from the heart. Don't take it away. Immediately the first - and the “five”, that is, a completely new generation. This, you know, is not an ordinary event.



In fact, everything looked quite cautious and modest: “Kaan” took off without retracting the landing gear and calmly gained an altitude of 13 km in 5 minutes, made one circle there at a low (about 500 km/h) speed and quietly landed. Throughout this flight, an F-16D flew nearby, from which the shooting was carried out.


Then there was a successful landing, and that’s all for now.


Naturally, the tests will continue, with each subsequent flight the plane will accelerate faster and climb higher.

Why such a howl and such joy? Well, everything is clear here. After the United States was “offended” by Turkey for the S-400 deal, it was necessary to somehow resolve the issue of saturating the Turkish Air Force with the latest aircraft, since not only are the F-35s no longer available to the Turks, but also the existing F-16s may be removed from upgrades. Americans are like that...

In general, the Turks needed their own plane. Because this is how and only this way it is possible to create an independent and self-sufficient army, despite the high cost and technical complexity inherent in the creation of modern combat aircraft.

That is why, despite a certain interest, the Turks abandoned the idea of ​​​​buying the Su-57 and decided to build their own aircraft.


And in the end, “Kaan” turned out. The Turks refused the help from Russia offered by Rostec, but they danced quite fruitfully with SAAB, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and FiatAvio. Considering that almost everyone on the list was involved in the construction of the Typhoon, the help was more than significant.

The Kaan has a profile broadly similar to the American F-22A Raptor stealth fighter.


Its aluminum nose and titanium central fuselage are coated with lightweight, low-radio-reflective carbon composite thermal pastes that Turkish companies originally created for “their” F-35 aircraft.

Since external armament reduces stealth, and the requirements for fifth-generation fighters include placing weapons in internal bays, the Kaan has two small internal bays located next to the engines, capable of holding two short-range air-to-air missiles each. The main fuselage compartment must accommodate four long-range air-to-air missiles or weapon class "air-ground".

That is, in this regard, “Kaan” is sort of like a “five”.


There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American F110-GE-129 turbofan engines (also used on F-16 fighters) are not optimized for stealth. At all. And this calls into question the “five” rating of the new Turkish aircraft.

Of course, the participation in the project of a company such as Rolls-Royce in the future will be able to provide the Turkish aircraft with a new generation engine, and it is quite possible that subsequent modifications in terms of stealth will correspond to the canons of stealth and maneuverability of the fifth generation.

With the effective dispersion area (RCS) of the aircraft, decent work was also done with the geometry of the surfaces and the use of radio-absorbing materials. However, it is premature to draw any conclusions about the Kaan’s ESR figures.

As for dynamic performance, the Kaan strives to match the typical performance of modern fighters: a maximum speed of Mach 1,8 to 2,2, a service ceiling of 16-17 meters, maneuvers with an overload of up to 000 g and a flight range of up to 9 km without refueling. It is also expected that it will be capable of flying at supersonic speeds without resorting to afterburner. The use of two engines in an aircraft design will increase costs in terms of fuel consumption, but will increase flight safety in the event of failure or damage to one of the engines.

In terms of weapons, the Kaan can be equipped with containers with reconnaissance and sighting equipment and precision weapons, including NATO-standard missiles such as Meteor. But we shouldn’t forget about domestic Turkish weapons, such as short-range Bozdogan and medium-range Gökdogan air-to-air missiles, SOM cruise missiles (range of more than 200 km) and MAM-T anti-tank missiles.

Avionics will presumably include a modern cockpit with a voice-controlled autopilot that can land the plane if the pilot becomes unconscious, and a British Martin-Baker ejection seat (possibly a US-16E model). Turkish manufacturer TAI also promises a noise-resistant and stealthy gallium nitride radar with AFAR from the Turkish company ASELSAN, an infrared sensor mounted in the nose, and an electro-optical guidance system with a 360-degree view under the fuselage, an open architecture, a helmet-mounted sight and the ability to control combat weapons. drones Anka-3, which will accompany the Kaan on missions.


The situation is impressive, but you and I understand perfectly well that more than one year may pass from the first flight to regiments armed with fighters. And “Kaan” has just yet to embark on this road. The plane that made its first flight and the combat fighter are two different machines. The flying prototype completely lacks combat systems, but that’s why it’s a flight prototype. The next two prototypes, scheduled to launch in 2025 and 2026, should have most of the systems. After production of a total of 7 to 10 prototypes, delivery of the first ten Block 1 aircraft intended for military service is scheduled for 2030-2033. Only then will a decade of mass production begin (at a rate of 24 aircraft per year) to gradually replace Turkey's F-16 fleet and last until the 2070s.


The program, we note, is very confident. Although, to be fair, let’s say that no one is immune from “shifts to the right.”

True, it’s a question of price... Yes, if Turkey can secure export orders to increase the total volume of aircraft produced and reduce unit costs, each Kaan will likely cost more than $100 million per aircraft.

On the one hand, this is considerably more than the Turks would pay for one F-35, on the other hand, no one is going to sell the F-35 to Turkey.

This means that Turkey will follow approximately the same path as South Korea with its KF-21 Boramae. That is, it will carry out a development program until it is possible to sell “Kaan” to other countries. Fortunately, there are already people interested in the aircraft, and if a willing country like Ukraine doesn’t and won’t have the money, then countries like Azerbaijan, Pakistan, the UAE, and Indonesia are much more serious buyers. Especially Pakistan and the Emirates, Azerbaijan is generally more than a strategic partner.

This does not mean that Kaan will not be better adapted to Turkish requirements, including integration into the growing Turkish system of weapons, sensors, drones and battle management networks.


"Kaan" will be an important political tool, since Turkey's relations with the United States and Germany deteriorated after the S-400 hit them. The Kaan will not only be a means of defense, but also a demonstration of political independence, since the ability to build its own aircraft regardless of its relations with Western countries will give Turkey additional weight on the world stage. And, as is well known, the Turkish leader loves this very much.

The Kaan, or more precisely the TF-X, went into development in 2010, when Turkey was on its way to acquiring a large fleet of F-35s. But deteriorating relations with the United States culminated in 2019, when Turkey received a cancellation of the F-35 program. This, in turn, forced the Kaan to evolve from an air superiority oriented fighter to a more straightforward multi-role aircraft.

The relatively developed drone industry in Turkey has led to the fact that military drones took on a specific role in combat missions in conjunction with manned jet fighters. This is a certain vector of development, and Turkish designers can cope with such tasks. At least experiments in this direction are underway.

Politics... continuation of any vector of weapons development. In 2023, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan made a gentlemanly exchange for Turkey's agreement to Sweden's entry into NATO on the one hand and the sale of F-16s to the United States and the modernization of Turkish F-16s, which had long been denied. Erdogan also still expects to conclude a deal for 40 Eurofighter 2000 generation 4+ aircraft, that is, to “spin” Germany into lifting the blockade. But this is very, very difficult.

US officials recently confirmed their willingness to sell Turkey the F-35 if it retires its Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile systems. This may be a good compromise, but Erdogan has reiterated his view that it is politically unacceptable.


But now the situation is aggravated by the fact that Turkey's main rival Greece (also a member of the NATO alliance) has received US approval to purchase F-35s and additional Rafale fighters from France (which opposes Turkish policies in Libya and the Mediterranean). Long-standing disputes over the islands of the Mediterranean Sea mean that Greek and Turkish planes often collide with each other, even literally, and the two states are constantly in difficult relations.

But besides Greece, Turkey is full of tensions both internally and (especially) externally. Support for Azerbaijan in the war with Armenia, the Kurdish issue in Syria and so on. The Kurds are a complex issue in general, they are still supported by the United States, and the result of all these political fluctuations was the incident last year in which an American plane shot down a Turkish combat drone.

Turkey's complex international relations make its quest for an independent air force far more pressing than it might be if the country had more stable relations with its bloc allies.

The Turks are well aware of the importance of independence in military matters. aviation from import suppliers. Therefore, it was immediately announced that at least 80-85% of the components would be made in Turkey. But here the rake of the unforgettable “Superjet” and MC-21 is drawn - the key stumbling block remains the dependence on American-made F110 engines, which are assembled but not produced in Turkey by Tusas Engine Industries (TEI). At the moment, the United States has sold 10 engines for the first stage of Kaan, but there is no guarantee that the Americans will supply F110 engines for Kaan beyond the 10 purchased.

And high-performance turbofan engines are notoriously difficult to improve and even more difficult to start from scratch. Here the example of China is very indicative: China is a country that has significant resources to solve this problem, but, nevertheless, is still working to completely get rid of dependence on Russian engines.

So the Turks are walking around the bazaar in search of something that could ultimately replace the F110. There are options here, for example, with the participation of the Turkish company Kale and the British Rolls Royce, and another with the participation of TEI and the Ukrainian company Ivchenko Progress. With Ukrainians, of course, the option is very so-so, but since a Turk and a Ukrainian are brothers forever, you can take a risk. Although personally I would not dare to take such a risky step.

Turkish officials have said a third engine option is also being considered, possibly with a non-NATO state such as China or Russia in mind. Let's see how things end, but Erdogan knows how to bargain for himself and his country.

In fact, Turkey does not have its own engine for the Kaan, and what it does have, the TF6000 and TF10000, is completely unsuitable for a fighter.

In addition, Turkish industry benefits from the availability of battle-tested munitions, nets, drones and sensors that it can adapt to the Kaan. However, the U.S. aerospace sector's notorious difficulties in completing development of the F-35 indicate that systems integration often proves more complex than expected, especially when attempting to meet the weight, geometry, and volume constraints of fifth-generation stealth aircraft. generations.


Due to the fact that Turkey has encountered a refusal to supply the F-35, the Kaan will most likely complete development and go into production. And it will serve for the glory of the Turkish Air Force. A big problem remains the provision of engines and spare parts for them. Plus, the financial side is also of great importance. Given the ongoing inflation crisis in Turkey and turbulent international relations, it is very important that there is enough money for the program until the final stage, that is, until the Kaan is put into operation.

By comparison, India's indigenous fighter program resulted in the Tejas Mk1, which by the time it was completed was completely inferior to the foreign alternatives in service with the Indian Air Force. As a result, the Indian Air Force purchased a very small batch. But India hopes its investment in the Tejas has laid the foundation for the improved Tejas Mark 1A and Mark 2 aircraft, and eventually the AMCA stealth fighter, which could give it greater air independence.

Turkey is certainly hoping that "Kaan" will debut at a higher level than "Tejas", thereby justifying a larger project in every sense. The completed Kaan could eventually be used as the basis for a more advanced sixth-generation stealth aircraft and artificial intelligence technology that Turkey has recently begun to explore, leading to sustainable production of Turkish fighter jets. And then you can already think about realizing your export ambitions, since “raw” aircraft, for which there is no support program and maintenance logistics have not been established, are unlikely to interest potential buyers.

In general, the first flight of the first Turkish fighter is just one step on a long and long path. Yes, the fact that the Turkish industry has experience in creating combat drones, including jet ones, creating a multi-functional combat aircraft is not a matter of one year. So, despite the loud cries of joy in the Turkish media, we will simply observe this most interesting process.

And we’ll draw a conclusion about how possible it is to build a “five” like this, the first time. Something tells me that this is not as simple a matter as it seems.
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  1. -20
    5 March 2024 04: 40
    The first Turkish fighter - and immediately “five”?
    recourse - Is the neighbor talking? T request and you speak too!
    and a flight range of up to 1000 km without refueling.
    There are enough sheep to graze, but why does the Sultan need more? request
    1. +12
      5 March 2024 09: 58
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      There are enough sheep to graze, but why does the Sultan need more?

      I wouldn't take this issue so lightly.
      It is very bad that the Turks took the first step in building their aircraft.
      Because this is only the first (!!) step. Only 13 years old and the plane made its first flight. Commendable.
      Even though it doesn't make me happy.
      1. -2
        5 March 2024 13: 16
        This is not even the first step, but a tiny step. The basis of the 5th generation aircraft is the 5th generation engine. Such engines are produced by 3 countries (China - conditionally - theoretically). Therefore, about the Turkish fighter of the 5th generation. We'll talk somewhere in 10 - 15 years and about the same amount in $.
        1. +6
          5 March 2024 13: 30
          Quote: TermNachTER
          This is not even the first step, but a tiny step. The basis of the 5th generation aircraft is the 5th generation engine. Such engines are produced by 3 countries (China - conditionally - theoretically). Therefore, about the Turkish fighter of the 5th generation. We'll talk somewhere in 10 - 15 years and about the same amount in $.

          That's not what worries me. Please note that the EU and the USA cannot provide the Outskirts with shells, the EU has economic problems, the Turks will take a very long time to build the aircraft, etc. etc.. I.e. We reassure ourselves that everything is bad for everyone. And we have? Everything is fine? There is not a single serial civil aircraft, and if there is one, it is produced individually. How much noise was there about TVS-117, PD-8, PD-16, PD-35 and where are they?
          So, don’t be complacent about the fact that everything is bad for everyone. We have to worry about the fact that not everything is going well with us.
          1. 0
            5 March 2024 14: 23
            PD-8 during flight tests as part of the IL-76 experimental laboratory. The prototype PD-35 will be assembled and bench tests will begin this March. This is the first time I’ve heard about the PD-16. Maybe you meant PD-14? MS-14-21 already flies on PD-310. It's already being produced.
            1. +1
              5 March 2024 14: 29
              About TV7-117ST-01.

              Rosaviatsia approved changes to the engine design and allowed the TV7-117ST-01 to be operated at altitudes up to 7 m.

              The approved changes are the next stage of the plan to improve the characteristics of not only the TV7-117ST-01, but also the entire family of TV7-117 engines, which includes the helicopter TV7-117V for the Mi-38 and TV7-117ST-02 for the Ladoga regional aircraft,

              The TV7-117ST-01 engine was certified by the Federal Air Transport Agency in December 2022, flight tests are planned this year, and in the future there will be pre-production production of six new engines for three aircraft to support the Il-114-300 program.


              https://dzen.ru/a/ZQiaQmDGwUPq-Q0n
          2. +2
            5 March 2024 18: 40
            Well, actually it’s not about us, but about them. Secondly, you yourself confirm that creating a modern turbofan engine is a very slow and expensive undertaking. PD - 8 and PD - 14 are already on the way. PD-35 is a very complex and expensive thing, the finishing process will not be quick, no matter how much you would like it to be.
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 10: 49
              The Stalinist method of management and effective managers were developed in a few years and tested with such management if in ten years something might be possible. And will be
              1. 0
                Yesterday, 11: 43
                Stalin's methods of management, alas, are hardly possible in the current realities.
  2. +6
    5 March 2024 04: 50
    Back again, twenty-five one moment of the engine is not their production and other components, which means it essentially depends, let’s say the plane went through all the processes, and at the last moment sanctions were imposed on the engines from the USA and everything was lost in a new circle, so it’s not a Turkish plane, but the USA in fact, stop telling fairy tales about Turkish if a country does not produce its own components for its aircraft, this is not its aircraft, remember these in the editorial office and the assembly can be established as you wrote anywhere, even in South Korea under a different number and different letters
    1. -1
      5 March 2024 19: 22
      I thought about this too. RR engines, as you know, the engine life is much less than the airframe life, so the Turks are firmly on the tail of the British. I wouldn’t be surprised that the British will include the ability to remotely turn off the engine in the event of some kind of boil.
  3. -4
    5 March 2024 04: 56
    Even for a state with a well-functioning engine industry, it takes 20-25 years to develop a new modern engine. So what motivated the Turks was not to pull it under any circumstances. Everything else... Let's chew and see.
    1. +6
      5 March 2024 09: 05
      The engine for them is made by Rolls-Royce based on the Eurofighter engine.
      1. -7
        5 March 2024 13: 17
        Why would the Britons be scared to share their technology with the Turks? Not to mention the fact that it has a 4th generation engine, I’m clearly not designed for such a car.
        1. MSN
          +4
          5 March 2024 13: 46
          They won’t want to share and don’t need to. They can just sell them ready-made.
          1. -2
            5 March 2024 18: 43
            Do you remember how many years the Turks begged the Amers for engines? Why do you think this will happen faster with the Britons? Again, production of both the aircraft and the engine has now ceased. There is a certain amount of EJ - 200 in warehouses. And then?
  4. +2
    5 March 2024 04: 58
    There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American F110-GE-129 turbofan engines (also used on F-16 fighters) are not optimized for stealth. At all. And this calls into question the “five” rating of the new Turkish aircraft.


    How to understand it?
    1. +11
      5 March 2024 05: 34
      Quote: Maxim G
      How to understand it?

      These are the fantasies of the author, who is not very strong in aviation. request
      1. -3
        5 March 2024 13: 19
        It's very simple. The VNA and compressor blades must be “hidden” from radar probing pulses, as is done on the F-22, 35 and Su-57. The F-16 engine is not optimized for such operating modes. We need to redo a lot.
        1. 0
          6 March 2024 14: 13
          Well, this has more to do with the air intake than with the engine. Also, by the way, the problem is extraordinary.
          1. 0
            6 March 2024 18: 41
            It’s one thing when the air goes to the engine directly, through a huge “blower”, like the F-16, and quite another when the air goes through an S-shaped air intake. Flow speed, vortex formation, subsonic, supersonic - there are a lot of nuances. Therefore, when the engine is installed on an F - 16, everything is simple and straightforward, but if on an F - 22, it is much more complicated.
      2. +3
        5 March 2024 13: 30
        the author is not a reader, the author is a writer, and that says it all))
    2. +3
      5 March 2024 09: 20
      Quote: Maxim G
      There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American F110-GE-129 turbofan engines (also used on F-16 fighters) are not optimized for stealth. At all. And this calls into question the “five” rating of the new Turkish aircraft.

      How to understand it?


      The EPR of an aircraft is, of course, influenced not by the engine itself, but by the shape and location of the air intakes, and partly the nozzle.
      1. +2
        5 March 2024 09: 23
        And the shape of the air intake duct....
  5. +4
    5 March 2024 05: 02
    In no case do I want to throw dirt at the Turkish aircraft building program, but in order to create your own fighter, even if not the fifth generation, you need to have a lot of things of your own. For example, developed science, which Turkey does not have. To obtain aviation aluminum, you need your own metallurgy, for the production of composite materials, and a chemical industry. We must not forget about the brains of any aircraft, the electronics. For some reason, I am sure that Turkey does not even have its own wind tunnel and trained personnel. As a result, it turns out that the engine is American (in the future British), the ejection system is French-British, composites are unknown, electronics too, although they wrote something about their own AFAR, but there is a question about the components. One of the undoubted advantages of this program is the accumulation of useful experience in Turkish aviation R&D
    1. +7
      5 March 2024 05: 28
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      for the production of composite materials, chemical industry.

      Yeah. Once my friend worked at a chemical enterprise. Optimized. Instead of two electricians, he became one for two workshops. And the distance between the workshops is a couple of kilometers. And so, there’s a problem, the electrician goes there, identifies the breakdown, and goes back for spare parts. As soon as he hung over the hoist, they shouted at him: “Get down, Moscow is calling you!” And so Moscow called him all night. And, because of you, all the airports will stop, Domodedovo, Sheremetyevo... He spat and went to security. Don't do anything for the same money.
      1. +4
        5 March 2024 05: 42
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Optimized. Instead of two electricians, he became one for two workshops
        Classic work of "effective" managers. Why are you surprised? wink
        1. +5
          5 March 2024 06: 01
          I haven't been surprised for a long time. I remember how twenty years ago, before going to Cuba, Zil, an effective manager poked his fingers at the receiver: “What is this?” The shop manager hid me out of harm's way, because I gave out an obscene description of this very receiver.
      2. +2
        5 March 2024 10: 54
        And this is true everywhere. And it won't get any better. Just as the “ineffective managers” are sitting at the helm, so they will be. They are simply rotating the “EBN chicks” from one chair to another. At all levels, starting... Everything is great in words, but in reality it’s complete zilch. But the “storm of applause” is stable. It's a shame for the State. hi
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      5 March 2024 08: 38
      But there is pragmatism. Like the old joke.
      “A monkey sits on the shore and rinses a banana skin in the water. A crocodile swims past and asks:
      - Monkey, what are you doing?
      - Give me a ruble, I'll tell you.
      The crocodile gave the monkey a ruble and asked again:
      - Well, what are you doing?
      - Don’t you see something? I'm rinsing the banana skin!
      - What a fool you are.
      “I’m not a fool, but I have a hundred rubles a day!”
    3. +3
      5 March 2024 09: 43
      For some reason, I am sure that Turkey does not even have its own wind tunnel and trained personnel.

      The attached photo shows the construction of the Turkish Aerospace Industries wind tunnel in Ankara. This is two years ago. By the way, the pipe is the second largest in Europe. Only TsAGI has more.
      1. +1
        5 March 2024 11: 11
        Quote: Dekabrist
        By the way, the pipe is the second largest in Europe
        I don’t want to Google it, but France has a very good aviation industry. Just as good in the UK. Probably in Sweden too.
        I don't believe it!© wink
        1. +1
          5 March 2024 14: 18
          I do not believe!

          Yes, actually, I’m purple, believe it or not. Turkish metallurgists too.
          Neither at home nor at school,
          Nowhere, nobody -
          Did not believe
          Stubborn Thomas
          Nothing.
          1. 0
            5 March 2024 14: 57
            Quote: Dekabrist
            Yes, I actually like purple
            Try drinking activated charcoal, it clears your mind
            1. +2
              5 March 2024 14: 59
              Try drinking activated charcoal, it clears your mind

              Judging by your comments, not very much.
    4. +4
      5 March 2024 09: 56
      To obtain aviation aluminum, you need your own metallurgy

      Türkiye produces about 100 tons of aluminum per year. Compared to China, there seems to be little, but for some items of aluminum products, Turkey is one of the world's three leading exporters.
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 11: 12
        Quote: Dekabrist

        Türkiye produces about 100 tons of aluminum per year
        It's all about what kind of aluminum
    5. +3
      5 March 2024 10: 17
      for the production of composite materials, chemical industry.

      The TUSAŞ (Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A.Ş.) plant, the fourth largest in the world, supplies 2 percent of the world's demand for composites for the aircraft industry.
      1. -2
        5 March 2024 11: 22
        Quote: Dekabrist
        The TUSAŞ (Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A.Ş.) plant, the fourth largest in the world, supplies 2 percent of the world's demand for composites for the aircraft industry.
        Actually, there are different types of composites. Maybe the doors to the toilet of a passenger plane. make either upholstery for the seats, or you can also make material for the wing, light and at the same time capable of withstanding crazy loads. It took us several years to create such a composite for the MS-21 wing. A small example. In Turkey, Grundig equipment is produced instead of the long-dead company Grundig. You can laugh. This is me in relation to composites and aluminum.
        1. -2
          5 March 2024 13: 30
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          In Turkey, Grundig equipment is produced instead of the long-dead company Grundig.

          If earlier Grundik was treated with respect and songs were sung (he has a Hrunding receiver, he plays it at night, catches bastards, Germany), but now the Turkish Hrundik is nothing.
          1. 0
            5 March 2024 13: 31
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            now the Turkish Hrundik is nothing
            A nasty and cheap craft with a nameplate from Grundig wink
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 13: 35
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              A nasty and cheap craft with a nameplate from Grundig

              That's what I'm talking about. The Turks ruined German quality.
  6. +2
    5 March 2024 05: 27
    a third engine option is being considered, perhaps with a non-NATO state such as China or Russia in mind.

    You can still get a dubious version of the AL-31 from China, but we... Yes! of course Yes! - For your beloved friend, at least an earring from your ear! For our Turk, here he is, a freshly baked AL-51, like a brother - for the tomatoes. And we will proudly report that our product, it is the most productive product, is in demand even among NATO members themselves (which should certainly destroy it, NATO)
    1. -5
      5 March 2024 06: 35
      Don’t panic ahead of time. If it comes to a supply contract, the engine will be sold to the Turks with reduced parameters. And with a bunch of bookmarks, too. The Turks’ attempt to get into the electronic brains of the S400 did not lead to anything good. They only spent money
      1. +6
        5 March 2024 09: 18
        Quote: Alexey Alekseev_5
        The Turks' attempt to get into the electronic brains of the S400 did not lead to anything good. They only spent money

        Please, tell us about this in more detail? And of course, do you have a link to an authoritative source on this matter?
        1. -6
          5 March 2024 13: 28
          Do you have information that they opened the S-400 and obtained the technology?
  7. +2
    5 March 2024 05: 32
    Quote: Maxim G
    There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American F110-GE-129 turbofan engines (also used on F-16 fighters) are not optimized for stealth. At all. And this calls into question the “five” rating of the new Turkish aircraft.


    How to understand it?

    Our Su-57 flew for ten years on 4th generation engines, and we were told that this was a 5th generation aircraft. Only now the standard engine has been completed, but we still have to wait for widespread use. hi hi
    1. 0
      5 March 2024 05: 44
      Quote: fa2998
      Our Su-57 flew for ten years on 4th generation engines, and we were told that this was a 5th generation aircraft.
      A special name was invented for it, the “4 Plus” generation aircraft. wink
    2. +2
      5 March 2024 05: 55
      Did you finish it? Considering the huge problems in our entire aircraft industry.
    3. -1
      5 March 2024 06: 10
      What is the relationship between the engine and stealth?
      1. +3
        5 March 2024 07: 43
        Quote: Maxim G
        What is the relationship between the engine and stealth?

        The first thing that comes to mind is serrated nozzle edges, which reduces the radar signature of the power plant, in which the operation of the fifth generation engine is less visible in the radar and infrared spectra, for which the engineers in the combustion chamber and nozzles seriously changed the flow there thermodynamic process. Fifth generation engines have several afterburner modes, in which the fighter, when operating at high supersonic speeds, will be less noticeable in the same infrared range. Well, and one more little thing...
  8. kpd
    0
    5 March 2024 05: 41
    If we assume that stealth is the main feature of the 5th generation, then the first aircraft of the fifth generation should be considered not the F-22, but the F-117.
    1. 0
      5 March 2024 08: 59
      We are not talking about fifth-generation aircraft, but about fifth-generation fighters.
      1. kpd
        -1
        5 March 2024 21: 31
        The Americans have put forward a criterion for 5th generation fighters - advanced on-board electronic computing equipment. Speed, maneuverability and stealth come after intelligent pilot support. And the electronics on the Turkish fighter are most likely quite weak.
  9. +4
    5 March 2024 06: 00
    To do something, you need to start. The start is already impressive.
  10. 0
    5 March 2024 06: 14
    To do something, you need to start. The start is impressive.
  11. +1
    5 March 2024 06: 23
    The speed at which the Turks created a fifth-generation aircraft at once is impressive. What about the single-engine?
    "Checkmate" was designed very quickly thanks to supercomputer technology. The first flight was planned for 2023. Well, the series was in 27.
    The intrigue arises: who will put their new aircraft into production first? Turks or us?
    1. -1
      5 March 2024 06: 43
      Quote: Stas157
      Turks or us?

      If there is a great need for Turkish aircraft, then of course the Turks, because they will not save money on such a project, and they have “a carriage and a small cart” of experienced assistants.
      SAAB, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and FiatAvio


      To Article:
      The Turks abandoned the idea of ​​buying a Su-57 and decided to build their own aircraft.

      Well, what is he like? This program continues as long as it does not interfere with the Democrats. If it’s profitable, the “Turkish bird” will fly, but if it becomes unprofitable, they’ll land it in an instant...
      1. +1
        5 March 2024 06: 47
        Quote: Doccor18
        of course the Turks, because they won’t save money on such a project,

        Is it just a matter of finances? Indians have plenty of finances. But they can't do anything better than Tijas.
        1. -1
          5 March 2024 06: 59
          Quote: Stas157
          Is it just a matter of finances?

          Did I only write about finances? Finance and a whole galaxy of experienced, world-famous companies in the aircraft industry... If our army does push the Ukrainians away from the Black Sea coast, then the Turkish Air Force/Navy will again “sparkle with new colors” for NATO, which means significant assistance will be provided.
        2. -2
          5 March 2024 07: 05
          Quote: Stas157
          Indians have... Tijas

          It’s not worth talking about India, because it is a separate planet, no, a separate universe... laughing wassat
      2. 0
        5 March 2024 13: 33
        Quote: Doccor18
        If it’s profitable, the “Turkish bird” will fly, but if it becomes unprofitable, they’ll land it in an instant...

        Tell this to Peshkov's relatives.
  12. +3
    5 March 2024 07: 32
    The layout is impressive, but you and I understand perfectly well that more than one year may pass from the first flight to regiments armed with fighters
    .
    In our country, this period is considered decades
  13. 0
    5 March 2024 08: 11
    Quote: Maxim G
    There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American F110-GE-129 turbofan engines (also used on F-16 fighters) are not optimized for stealth. At all. And this calls into question the “five” rating of the new Turkish aircraft.


    How to understand it?

    Very simple.
    The stealth of the engine (of course, as part of an airplane) is influenced by the following factors:
    1. The exhaust temperature, to reduce it it is necessary, in addition to manipulating the nozzle, to increase the bypass ratio, and this is very difficult for a supersonic aircraft engine because, by definition, it leads to an increase in the size of the unit;
    2. "Visibility" of the first stages of the compressor and fan. They shine from very far away. To minimize this factor, it is necessary to shield the front of the engine with air intake parts, and this is such an intimate area that the engine must be specially designed to work with a virtually cluttered inlet.
    In short, like this.
  14. -3
    5 March 2024 08: 12
    Quote: Rom8681
    The layout is impressive, but you and I understand perfectly well that more than one year may pass from the first flight to regiments armed with fighters
    .
    In our country, this period is considered decades

    Who's faster? Would you like to share?
  15. -6
    5 March 2024 08: 16
    Quote: Stas157
    Indians have plenty of finances.

    In addition to finance, general and technical culture is also necessary, and the turkeys are not very good at this, otherwise they wouldn’t flock in droves to Russian provincial universities.
    Ghee! It’s funny that for some reason fresh batches of turkeys are brought to us in Yoshkao-Ola not at the beginning of the school year, but somewhere in early November. It's funny to watch how they cut their feet in the snow in flip-flops laughing!
  16. -7
    5 March 2024 08: 17
    Only the name is from Turkish. An excellent plane, or rather a budget cut.
  17. +6
    5 March 2024 08: 54
    I'll downvote the Turkish fighter because you can't be better than Russia! How dare they not export 100 million tons. oil, have your own aircraft industry!
    1. -3
      5 March 2024 11: 42
      How is the import of 100 million tons of oil related to the aviation industry? And the Russian Federation does not export that much oil, Europe reported that it has completely abandoned Russian oil, and the United States too. They can’t lie, then they need to impose sanctions on themselves.
      1. +6
        5 March 2024 12: 06
        How is the import of 100 million tons of oil related to the aviation industry?

        Of course, it doesn’t seem to be directly connected in any way, but when I say that it is necessary to stop the export of oil, gas, timber, metals, in raw form - everyone is like - ahhh, but from what should the budget be formed, from what “will pensions and salaries be paid?” ". So it turns out that if there were no oil exports - it turns out - there would be no pensions, no salaries for public sector employees, no state aviation industry. And Turkey, so I say, somehow dares to purchase resources at all, and even to exist on something! And not just survive! And the aviation industry also allows itself! And he doesn’t just allow, but tries to make a 5th generation fighter! Which our country and our economy have been working on for 14 years now? Or longer? The question is, did Türkiye show another Turkish miracle? (and what kind of miracle she would show if she had such petrodollars), or is it some kind of anti-miracle, a negative miracle, that has been happening for 35 years now. That Türkiye is catching up with us! It had neither the Soviet legacy in science and the military-industrial complex, nor these petrodollars. How to compare these facts? Are we marking time, or is Türkiye running?
        1. -3
          5 March 2024 13: 25
          Turkey doesn't have many options. Just like ours. Because no one is going to sell to her. Well, we could have, but the Sultan messed up the stools. Listen to Roman more, you'll get something else in your head. So far, no success. Just a neat communist glider. Some technologies were stolen during the production of the F-35, they bought something, they are doing something together. Look, the Europeans generally put their five together, and this is in all respects more powerful not only than Turkey, but also the Russian Federation, plus already developed technologies. And Korea does it in one person. For known reasons. But even Roma admits this - the Turks do not have 5's. China also started with this, but now it’s too much to invest in 4++, only in five/six. Even if in fact this is not the case.
  18. +2
    5 March 2024 08: 56
    There is a nuance with engines. The engines of the Turkish aircraft are American turbofan engines F110-GE-129

    The engines are planned to be based on Rolls-Royce engines for the Eurofighter.
    A joint company with the Turks was created, which is developing an engine for the Turkish fighter. The Turks want to produce the engine themselves and have all the rights to it.
    Before the development of the engine, it was decided to use American Turkish production for testing.
  19. -2
    5 March 2024 08: 57
    That is why, despite a certain interest, the Turks abandoned the idea of ​​​​buying the Su-57 and decided to build their own aircraft.

    I don’t think the Turks need to be offered the Su57. Su35S or Su30SM2 - "Behind the eyes."
    As for the alternative 5th generation, then:
    - South Korea - was able to
    - Britain + EU - they are just being selected (and they have turbojet engines and systems, but no sales)
    - Japan - slowed down.
    - China is developing its J-35
    - The Russian Federation is approaching the Su75 (Having 2 turbojet engines and Al41 and Izdeliye 30 and Systems)


    I don’t think that in terms of technology and production, the Turks have gone further than these countries, which have a closed production cycle for 4++ generation fighters.
  20. -3
    5 March 2024 09: 39
    Let's face it - whether the Americans are playing tricks with the engine or not.
    1. 0
      5 March 2024 11: 07
      Doesn't matter. The engine is already being developed based on the English engine from Eurofighter
    2. -1
      5 March 2024 11: 07
      At a minimum, in this standard size there are the French, Rolls-Royce (I think they installed it), RD-33(93), Swedes....
  21. -4
    5 March 2024 09: 43
    Nothing will work out for the Turks! Rolls-Royce will not create a fifth generation engine for them! Does he have anything else to do? The Turks do not and will not have their own engine! And who then will need such a fighter?
  22. -6
    5 March 2024 10: 11
    Quote from gribanow.c
    I'll downvote the Turkish fighter because you can't be better than Russia! How dare they not export 100 million tons. oil, have your own aircraft industry!

    Another ragul has come out again! Go ahead and ride on your next Maidan. We're already tired of it.
    1. +6
      5 March 2024 10: 30
      The fact that criticism of shortcomings is perceived like this in our country suggests that we have our own layer of people, our own “ragul”, this is the conservative bureaucracy and those who support them. That’s why we live according to the “one step forward, two steps back” model.
  23. Eug
    -3
    5 March 2024 10: 19
    Ivchenko - Of all the “fighter” engines, progress has created only the low-thrust AI-22-22X, which traces its “pedigree” to the AI-1500 engines for the Yak-40. It is very unlikely that they would have real developments for 5th generation engines; they need the developments of CIAM, VILS, VIAM, from which the Zaprozhians were “cut off”.
  24. +2
    5 March 2024 10: 28
    IMHO, they are just gaining experience, doing school.
    They are not fools; they will try to find their niche in the future.
  25. +5
    5 March 2024 10: 35
    Türkiye, of course, did not develop and build the aircraft from scratch. The article does not indicate that, in addition to the fact that Turkey, after purchasing Russian air defense systems, was refused the sale of the F35, Turkey took part in their creation. Various parts of the F35 were assembled in different countries, including Turkey. Indeed, at the time of the dispute over the purchase of air defense, the question arose that the aircraft creation program would shift to the right, since no one agreed to blackmail Turkey that if they did not sell the aircraft to it, then it would not supply its share of the elements. Turkey has been “import-substituted”. The plane was built. The Turks were sent. But the drawing documentation remained. And naturally, the documentation of the country of the participant in the creation of the product is not limited to the diagram of one part. We need to build a chassis, we need a frame diagram. Need ailerons? Give me a diagram of the wing. An analysis of the constructed product, in principle, shows Turkey’s share of participation and the accompanying documentation they have. General layout of the aircraft, coating. There are no complex elements. Engines are not a key element. Airborne radar equipment is questionable. Because maybe they didn’t give it, but they will, be that as it may, the country is in NATO and why not push the product towards integration into NATO equipment.
    But despite all the preferences, the creation of such an aircraft is still worthy of respect from the country. We look at them with contempt, some kind of Turks, their destiny is all-inclusive... And look what they are doing. Moreover, the aircraft is not their only direction in the construction of military weapons.
    And after the pathetic statements of the author of the article about engines, let's sadly talk about the engines for our fifth-generation fighter... It is possible that it will be a shame when the Turks make themselves an engine for a fighter, and we will still wait for their deliveries and modifications. And then suddenly it turns out that they are very expensive... And they will suffer the same fate as the "Armata".
  26. -2
    5 March 2024 10: 39
    danced with SAAB, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and FiatAvio.

    Cooperation with SAAB ended before it began. Avio SpA was not involved at all.
    1. +1
      5 March 2024 11: 08
      The Swedes lifted all restrictions in exchange for joining NATO.
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 11: 13
        Initially, the Turks had a choice - to make a single-engine or a twin-engine.
        We decided on a twin-engine design, so we turned to the British.
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 11: 14
          In this size there are French, US, Swedes and RR and RD33
        2. 0
          5 March 2024 14: 23
          And with Analog Al41 there are much fewer offers
      2. -2
        5 March 2024 13: 43
        Quote: Zaurbek
        The Swedes have lifted all restrictions

        Yes, I remember that a crowd of Swedes came to us when the SAAB crashed. When they found out that a drunk friend was driving the car, they got drunk for a week and left.
  27. -5
    5 March 2024 11: 16
    The comparison with the South Korean fighter says it all. More than 50% of all main units and components, both the aircraft and its weapons, are imported from the Koreans. So this can very loosely be called a “Turkish” plane.
    And dependence on the import of the most complex and important components means that the quantity and quality of aircraft will be controlled from abroad and, by definition, it will lag behind.
    In addition, the importance of manned aircraft is steadily declining so that we are talking about a very expensive and unnecessary product on the battlefield that brings a lot of profit to manufacturers. This is his main task.
    1. +2
      5 March 2024 12: 21
      The Turks have their own weapons, imported ones as an additional option.
      The engine is made on the basis of the Eurofighter engine together with the British, and the Turks are trying to ensure that the engine is not only produced in Turkey, but the Turks also have all the rights to it.
  28. -2
    5 March 2024 12: 41
    The country did not produce combat aircraft and then immediately took up the 5th generation. Producing UAVs is not enough, this level of technology is an order of magnitude higher
  29. +2
    5 March 2024 12: 52
    Immediately the first - and the “five”, that is, a completely new generation

    Something tells me that this is not as simple a matter as it seems.

    This is the fifth generation of Sukhoi Design Bureau, this is foreign know-how. He is already over 30 years old.
    And I don’t understand what is telling Skomorokhov? So far, only one state has been able to independently produce a 5th generation aircraft, and even then with reservations. The Japanese and Koreans mostly assemble the glider, which is also not bad, even after 30 years. And it’s not bad, because the turbo-patriots beating themselves on the chest have been looking at the Su-57 for many years now and believe that it is 5ka.
    Horse-sized with bare engines.
    The Turks didn’t buy it because it’s not 5, but 4++. It just smells like stealth. The engines from the F-16 on the prototype were not even close.
  30. -3
    5 March 2024 12: 53
    Quote from solar
    The Turks have their own weapons, imported ones as an additional option.
    The engine is made on the basis of the Eurofighter engine together with the British, and the Turks are trying to ensure that the engine is not only produced in Turkey, but the Turks also have all the rights to it.

    What does yours mean? If there are sanctions on sensitive components, will the Turks be able to independently produce these missiles?
    It's the same with engines. For example, the British produce turbine blades for the Eurofighter engine. All others produce less sensitive parts. These engines cannot be produced without the British, but without others it is possible.
    1. +3
      5 March 2024 13: 16
      The British immediately declared their readiness to transfer to Turkey all the technologies for the production of the Eurofighter engine.
      In December 2015, Turkey's Undersecretariat of Defense Industries (SSM) announced that it had selected British company BAE Systems to help develop the nation's next-generation air superiority fighter. On the same day, Rolls-Royce offered to transfer EJ200 engine technology and jointly develop a derivative version for the TF-X program. [33] During British Prime Minister Theresa May's visit to Turkey in January 2017, representatives from BAE Systems and TAI signed an agreement worth approximately £100 million under which BAE Systems would provide engineering assistance in the development of the aircraft. [34] Following the signing of the agreement, the UK issued an open general export license to defense companies wishing to export goods, software or technology to Turkey. [35]
      1. +2
        5 March 2024 13: 18
        That is, England has carte blanche for any military supplies to Turkey.
  31. -1
    5 March 2024 13: 17
    where did it all go, boss? laughing if not about the Russian Federation, then at least with cautious optimism, and sometimes with delight? Let there not even be a horse lying there.
  32. +1
    5 March 2024 13: 35
    The example of this plane shows very clearly whose ally Turkey really is))) First of all, their own, since they are not going to give up the idea of ​​leadership in the Middle East. Secondly, the Western world, since the planned expansion is precisely in the direction of the Russian Federation and its zone of interests. And if we remember history, the Russian Federation and Turkey are natural rivals/enemies, so to speak, and nothing has changed since then. But the great Pu and his team of traitors are doing everything so that Turkey becomes stronger economically and can, due to the economy, become stronger militarily))) But this is different))) This is absolutely not the same betrayal of the homeland as transferring 100 rubles to the Ukrainian Armed Forces)))
  33. -2
    5 March 2024 15: 22
    On the same day, Rolls-Royce offered to transfer EJ200 engine technology and jointly develop a derivative version for the TF-X program.

    Engine technology does not mean the manufacturing technology of all its components. Rolls-Royce once signed the same thing with the Eurofighter company, but they have not and will not transfer the technology for the production of the main engine components to anyone. Moreover, Türkiye will not receive them.
    It’s a different matter if there was no misunderstanding with Rolls-Royce and the Turks themselves managed to establish the production of turbine blades, etc.
    I have no doubt that the Turks will be able to do something (worse or better) without Rolls-Royce, but for this they need their own engine building program (scientific levels, industry, personnel), money and time.
    1. +2
      5 March 2024 23: 08
      I have no doubt that the Turks will be able to do something (worse or better) without Rolls-Royce, but for this they need their own engine building program (scientific levels, industry, personnel), money and time.

      The fact that they have a joint development with the British will allow the Turks to quickly master the necessary technologies.
  34. -3
    5 March 2024 16: 42
    I think that in this Turkish, Turkish will be much less than 50%.
  35. -1
    5 March 2024 17: 59
    Having slammed America, many countries will not receive spare parts for their aircraft, this makes attacks on NATO a little easier
    In a war with NATO we must hit the USA
    If you hit the factories producing spare parts for the F35, then NATO will not have the opportunity to repair its aircraft.
  36. -1
    5 March 2024 18: 00
    What will Pakistan buy there? This country is about to go bankrupt.
  37. 0
    5 March 2024 18: 30
    Quote: Stas157
    The first flight was planned for 2023. Well, the series was in 27.
    The intrigue arises: who will put their new aircraft into production first? Turks or us?

    Quote: Stas157
    The first flight was planned for 2023. Well, the series was in 27.
    The intrigue arises: who will put their new aircraft into production first? Turks or us?

    I bet on the Turks! It’s 24, the Turks have already flown. But we haven’t progressed further than the mock-up. wassat wassat
  38. 0
    5 March 2024 19: 19
    Quote: Zaurbek
    In this size there are French, US, Swedes and RR and RD33

    It also made sense to install it under RD33.
  39. -1
    5 March 2024 19: 20
    Quote: Anton Yu
    What will Pakistan buy there? This country is about to go bankrupt.

    Türkiye is also on the verge of bankruptcy.
  40. -1
    6 March 2024 11: 49
    Quote from solar
    The fact that they have a joint development with the British will allow the Turks to quickly master the necessary technologies.

    “Joint development” precisely means that the Turks will not receive part of the technology from the British. For the British, “joint development” with Turkey means that they will deliver something to the Turks for money that the Turks themselves are not able to do.
  41. 0
    11 March 2024 11: 08
    It is now absolutely clear that the future belongs to completely unmanned vehicles and those who are trying to invest money in the development of manned aircraft will inevitably fall behind. The fighting showed that you need not just a lot of equipment, but a lot, and expensive fifth-generation aircraft are not suitable. If there were several thousand drones in Russia with performance characteristics at least at the level of the Second World War, the war would have already ended. And so, after at the beginning of the word the enemy’s air defense showed its effectiveness, the aircraft became a pity and the Aerospace Forces did not have the impact they had hoped for. and only now with the advent of glide bombs is this impact becoming noticeable.
  42. 0
    April 19 2024 20: 23
    The Turks are great. Nothing at all has passed since they were denied the F35. And oops - your new plane, and not “some completely redesigned Mig21”. Impressive.
  43. 0
    April 19 2024 20: 29
    Quote from djinn_82
    Türkiye, of course, did not develop and build the aircraft from scratch. The article does not indicate that, in addition to the fact that Turkey, after purchasing Russian air defense systems, was refused the sale of the F35, Turkey took part in their creation. Various parts of the F35 were assembled in different countries, including Turkey. Indeed, at the time of the dispute over the purchase of air defense, the question arose that the aircraft creation program would shift to the right, since no one agreed to blackmail Turkey that if they did not sell the aircraft to it, then it would not supply its share of the elements. Turkey has been “import-substituted”. The plane was built. The Turks were sent. But the drawing documentation remained. And naturally, the documentation of the country of the participant in the creation of the product is not limited to the diagram of one part. We need to build a chassis, we need a frame diagram. Need ailerons? Give me a diagram of the wing. An analysis of the constructed product, in principle, shows Turkey’s share of participation and the accompanying documentation they have. General layout of the aircraft, coating. There are no complex elements. Engines are not a key element. Airborne radar equipment is questionable. Because maybe they didn’t give it, but they will, be that as it may, the country is in NATO and why not push the product towards integration into NATO equipment.
    But despite all the preferences, the creation of such an aircraft is still worthy of respect from the country. We look at them with contempt, some kind of Turks, their destiny is all-inclusive... And look what they are doing. Moreover, the aircraft is not their only direction in the construction of military weapons.
    And after the pathetic statements of the author of the article about engines, let's sadly talk about the engines for our fifth-generation fighter... It is possible that it will be a shame when the Turks make themselves an engine for a fighter, and we will still wait for their deliveries and modifications. And then suddenly it turns out that they are very expensive... And they will suffer the same fate as the "Armata".

    By what specific parameters do you classify the Su57 as the 5th generation and how does it differ (except for price) from the 4++? The type case was new 15 years ago. What else?