When will protection against drones become standard?

73
When will protection against drones become standard?
Source: Guidelines for ensuring protection of armored personnel carriers from FPVdrones (basic provisions), Moscow, GABTU, 2023.


Nets and visors


The simplest logic suggests the following chain of events. The enemy has significantly expanded the range of weapons used drones and is ready to hunt individual fighters, not to mention military equipment. Reports from the front show how sad the fate of the Loaf crew could be after the arrival of the only FPV. And vans from Ulyanovsk are far from the only victims of drone killers. Realizing the less than stellar effectiveness of cumulative anti-tank grenades suspended under the propellers of drones, neo-Nazis began to use specific fragmentation ammunition, significantly increasing their lethal force.




A typical front-line workshop where nets and canopies from drones are built.

In response to such challenges, Russian craftsmen began to build various types of structures designed to prevent ammunition from hitting the target. Grilles, visors, spaced armor and other shielding are used. Some of these barriers act as platoon screens, some simply do not allow a grenade to be dropped into an open hatch, and some structures are platforms for dynamic protection units. The technical creativity of the rembats does not always really help, but it definitely has a psychological effect on the crews.

Subsequently, the findings of the “field design bureaus” undergo appropriate testing at the training grounds of the GABTU of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and, with appropriate modifications, are accepted for service. The last sentence should have been a logical continuation stories, but it is missing. The thesis that every vehicle at the front should have bars and/or platoon screens has never found understanding in the military-industrial complex.

It is impossible to retrofit new or factory-restored self-propelled vehicles in front-line conditions for several reasons.

The first is that it distracts personnel from restoring damaged vehicles.

The second reason is that it creates a completely unnecessary accumulation of equipment, which can attract the attention of the enemy. Even in the deep rear. If neo-Nazis are ready to spend expensive HIMARS on several drone operators, then the newly arrived machines will be hit even more so.

The third reason is that the retrofitting of anti-drone nets, for example, on KamAZ and Uralov vehicles, delays trucks for the front.

The fourth reason is that, whatever one may say, it is easier to make a high-quality and durable canopy with a grille in the factory than in a rembat.








Some of the many examples of retrofitting military equipment in front-line conditions.




In this form, the restored equipment goes to the front. An easy target for drones of various stripes.

It would be a mistake to consider the installation of electronic suppression systems, such as the LGSh-608 and LGSh-609 noise generator, on front-line equipment as a panacea. Or the Volnorez UAV suppression complexes. The technology is necessary and useful, but it operates in a strictly defined frequency range, which does not always coincide with those of drones.

The operation of a 300-watt noise generator is a fairly serious marker for enemy electronic reconnaissance. Despite the fact that no effective means of combating drones has been found, gratings with other shielding are one of the simplest and cheapest possible. Only now the SVO soldiers have to develop and install protection on their own.

Proposal to GABTU


An interesting series of methodological recommendations on ensuring the protection of equipment from FPV drones has appeared on the Internet, including in the enemy sector. Authorship is indicated by the State Academic Technical University of the Russian Ministry of Defense. The enemy has already become familiar with these manuals, so they do not represent military secrets.

Manuals were issued separately for military vehicles, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles with infantry fighting vehicles and, of course, for tanks. To be fair, it is worth noting that the military-industrial complex still bothered to equip tanks and infantry fighting vehicles at the factory with standard anti-drone arrays. But not always and not everywhere.




Source: Guidelines for ensuring the protection of airborne vehicles from FPV drones (main provisions), Moscow, GABTU, 2023.

Therefore, GABTU proposes to bring the equipment into combat order already at the front.

The manuals rightly indicate that “during combat operations of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, FPV drones, including retrofitted models for commercial purposes, are widely used to destroy military vehicles (as well as armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, infantry fighting vehicles and tanks). Small size, high accuracy and the use of a wide range of weapons make FPV drones an effective means of destroying equipment.”

What needs to be done to protect against “birds”?

In addition to electronic warfare systems, it is necessary to cover the equipment with nets and bars. Let's look at the example of protection with nets from all angles except the roof.

The minimum kit for equipping one vehicle the size of a KamAZ consists of a profile with a cross-section of 30x30 mm or a pipe with a diameter of 30 mm - from 35 to 48 linear meters; grids (cell size not less than 75 x 75, but not more than 80 x 80); aramid cord (textile) with a diameter of 3–5 mm – from 15 to 20 m2 and M12 nut-bolt. The master also needs a welding machine, a grinder, three kilograms of 3 mm electrodes and a drill with drill bits. Don't forget to mention six cutting discs.

Approximately the same amount of resources is required to place protective visors on the car. The gold standard is considered to be 200 mm gaps between the body and the side mesh, as well as placement of the visors at a height of at least 1,1 meters. The canopy must be gable with a plane slope of 15–25 degrees.

GABTU also offers weaving protective nets in front-line conditions. The manual says:

“To make the mesh, it is optimal to use an aramid or textile cord with a diameter of 3–5 mm. Weave a net from the cord with a mesh size of at least 75 x 75 mm, but not more than 80 x 80 mm. If available, you can use a ready-made network. A bolt with an M12 nut is secured to the cell nodes. The nets are attached to the frames. Frames for installing nets are made according to the dimensions of the protected element of the armored personnel carrier (windshields, doors, hatches) from square metal pipes of 30x30 mm of the required length, followed by welding them together.”


Source: Guidelines for ensuring the protection of armored personnel carriers from FPV drones (main provisions), Moscow, GABTU, 2023.






Source: Guidelines for ensuring the protection of infantry fighting vehicles and BMD-4 from FPV drones (main provisions), Moscow, GABTU, 2023.


Patent images of anti-drone protection using remote sensing units

A simple comparison of the protection techniques of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles raises questions.

Why, from the most vulnerable upper projection, are infantry fighting vehicles and infantry fighting vehicles protected from drones by a completely symbolic grille with a narrow mesh skirt?

The engine and transmission, airborne and partially fighting compartments remained under attack. At the same time, the BTR-82A, whose ammunition is much less dangerous and vulnerable, is generously covered with a visor from nose to tail.

There should be a special conversation about the BMP-3. This is a vehicle with a 100-mm gun, albeit of low ballistics, but quite suitable for destroying neo-Nazi fortifications. Coupled with high mobility, the BMP-3 becomes an analogue of a tank. Of course, taking into account the specifics of use.

In this regard, the question arises: why aren’t dynamic protection units mounted on steel supports on such a valuable combat unit? We are talking about structures covering the tower from above, mounted on 780 mm supports. It is unclear why BMP-3s are not equipped with these.


Source: Guidelines for ensuring the protection of tanks from FPV drones (main provisions), Moscow, GABTU, 2023.

As a result, a not entirely blissful picture emerges.

GABTU voices recommendations for retrofitting military equipment with protection not for military-industrial complex enterprises, but for combat repair units. It is proposed to install canopies and nets on the front or near it. Factories, with a few exceptions, send armored vehicles to the front, protected from drones by purely symbolic means.

Why Nizhny Tagil, Arzamas, Miass, Naberezhnye Chelny or Kurgan did not bother to equip their equipment with truly up-to-date means of protection against drones remains a mystery.
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73 comments
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  1. +13
    3 March 2024 03: 17
    Why Nizhny Tagil, Arzamas, Miass, Naberezhnye Chelny or Kurgan did not bother to equip their equipment with truly up-to-date means of protection against drones remains a mystery.
    Because they order equipment from the plant without visors and other things, in order to order with all this stuff you need to fill out a lot of paperwork, change all sorts of OKVEDs, GOSTs and other things that are very important for the bureaucracy. This is first of all. And secondly, we have a people’s war, so they pay the soldiers a salary - from it they have to buy shoes, heaters, stoves, Maviki and everything else they need, so let them look for something to weld onto a tank, a bed or a metal tile. Well, either they will look for volunteers, or they will write to their governors. But it’s too difficult for any managers, they just wrote a manual and that’s enough, they’re already tired.

    In my opinion, anti-aircraft guns should be returned to equipment. A saiga with duck cartridges, with automatic guidance from some sensors on drones, will mow down 95% of incoming pests and probably half of the ATGM missiles. This is better than any electronic warfare
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 03: 42
      Why Nizhny Tagil, Arzamas, Miass, Naberezhnye Chelny or Kurgan did not bother to equip their equipment with truly up-to-date means of protection against drones remains a mystery.

      There are no mysteries here. equipment manufacturers probably have an idea about the necessary protection and other upgrades, BUT DO THE MANAGERS OF THESE HOLDINGS WHERE THE EQUIPMENT AND WEAPONS ARE PRODUCED ABOUT THIS?
      Do they have any practical military service skills (not to mention combat experience)? Most likely, only in the form of being wounded by a shrapnel (possibly glass from a bottle) in the ass and then getting a lucrative place among the right people...
      Whether the people need such people, whether they are useful for the personnel of army units, I don’t know...
      1. +6
        3 March 2024 03: 58
        Quote: ROSS 42
        BUT DO THE LEADERS OF THESE HOLDINGS, WHERE THE EQUIPMENT AND WEAPONS ARE PRODUCED, HAVE ANY IDEA ABOUT THIS?

        They should have no idea, generals and other ministers should come to them and order them to prepare proposals as soon as possible in order to equip all the equipment with what is necessary within so many months. Our holdings have been running after the Moscow Region for decades with their own initiative projects that the Moscow Region did not need.
        1. -5
          3 March 2024 04: 10
          Quote from alexoff
          They should have no idea, generals and other ministers should come to them

          What should they have an idea about? About the properties of cash flows to flow from empty to empty?
          Generals and other ministers can determine the need for protection, but who should prepare the technical documentation for production? Where will the funds come from that people can use words and drawings to complete a project for subsequent execution in metal?
          * * *
          I see that in your opinion, the head of the holding is a necessary person for presentations and exhibitions...And why the hell is he paid then? We don’t need intermediaries for nothing...We need active creators and carriers of ideas...
          1. +7
            3 March 2024 04: 33
            Quote: ROSS 42
            What should they have an idea about?

            no, about the capabilities that the plant has. Gather the chief engineers, technologists, bring some general into one room and discuss in detail what and how can be done and in what time frame.
            Quote: ROSS 42
            Where will the funds come from that people can use words and drawings to complete a project for subsequent execution in metal?

            In theory, from our taxes. It is unlikely that the plant will start making visors for free in addition to conventional equipment. They are of course cheaper than the equipment itself, but not free.
            Quote: ROSS 42
            person needed for presentations and exhibitions

            Usually, it is not directors who go to exhibitions and presentations, but PR managers and heads of departments. The director, in theory, should be involved in promoting smart people and firing stupid ones, performing representative functions with the customer, and so on. But in our country, directors usually consider themselves the main shareholders, that is, those who simply make a profit, doing nothing, doing who knows what.
            Quote: ROSS 42
            We need active creators and carriers of ideas...

            What is there to think? Two sheets of metal profile, between them a layer of aramid or Kevlar, two weeks of testing with the participation of three masters of FPV drones “ghoul”, a couple of months to prepare for production. On the “large-caliber commotion” channel they generally showed that eggplants filled with water best hold a cumulative jet. Take it and do it. But the Ministry of Defense simply put a bolt on the simplest hangars for airplanes and helicopters, what do they care about loaves of bread and other infantry fighting vehicles? They don’t ride on them, their sons don’t ride on them, but these visors cost money.
            1. +3
              3 March 2024 05: 15
              Quote from alexoff
              On the “large-caliber commotion” channel they generally showed that eggplants filled with water best hold a cumulative jet

              Not with water, but with kerosene - water just doesn’t hold up. And they don’t even know from Afghanistan that different types of fuel hold cumul. Kumul is actually a jet of liquid metal and interacts with armor according to the laws of hydrodynamics. from her point of view, that 100mm of steel is the same as 100mm of kerasin in a canister - the same thing (well +-). And the higher the boiling point, the better. That's why the water doesn't hold. It stupidly begins to evaporate, because... The temperature of the cumulative jet is far from room temperature.
              By the way, the sagging on the hole is not melting of the metal or burning - the jet actually washes out the metal. Remember the same tanks in the rear doors of armored personnel carriers - this is not without reason (c)
              1. -2
                3 March 2024 17: 39
                Quote from Enceladus
                And the higher the boiling point, the better. That's why the water doesn't hold. It stupidly begins to evaporate, because... The temperature of the cumulative jet is far from room temperature.

                Water holds very well, since water evaporation is an extremely energy-consuming process. And everything will evaporate from the cumulative jet, water, diesel fuel, and fuel oil. In the commotion, even a non-Newtonian fluid does not allow it to penetrate the armor. And any liquid holds cumulative well, some need more, some less. I think if someone cared, it would be possible to choose some ideal composition so that it would not burn or spoil
                1. 0
                  3 March 2024 17: 47
                  Colleague, as far as I remember the video (and I was away at the time and had to watch it not in the best quality), it was the water that showed itself the worst.... if you consider the kinetics of the jet, and this is at 8 km/s... I don’t think , that the evaporation of water is enough to extinguish the heat capacity of 4,2 kJ... The funny thing is that diesel, cuirassin and heavier... hold up perfectly.
                  1. -1
                    3 March 2024 20: 07
                    Quote from Enceladus
                    The funny thing is that diesel, cuirassin and heavier ones... hold up well.

                    Like this? They're floating on top! I think the issue is still fluidity, the water is more viscous and does not have time to cut off the stream. But this is not certain, I’m not sure that anyone has seriously researched it, yet it seems they haven’t learned how to shoot such speeds yet. In any case, stocking up on water is cheaper than extra solarium; it helps better than firewood or sand.
                    1. 0
                      3 March 2024 20: 17
                      Quote from alexoff
                      They're floating on top!

                      No, I'm talking about the whole tank. Not with water, and in that video there were canisters with pure kerasin, like... well, alas, I don’t remember, I’m too lazy to look. The point of the video is that the beam pierced the bottles with water, but not the ones with kerasin
                      1. 0
                        3 March 2024 20: 25
                        In one of the videos, a canister of solarium was broken on one side, but the other side remained intact. As I wrote above, some people might have been concerned with such liquid armor for a long time; what if polymethylsiloxane lubricant turns out to be better than uranium armor against cumulative? Many problems in our army have not been solved, because they were not even solved. And in 90% of cases you just take it and do it
                    2. 0
                      3 March 2024 20: 24
                      Quote from alexoff
                      They're floating on top!

                      I know the case myself... a beam flew into our horse 80's tank... January 26, 2000, I remember the battle, albeit vaguely, then I received a concussion... and it didn't break through... But the truth... alas, another one through a couple of seconds... we pulled the crew out on the armor... into the shoulder straps... there were 2 locks with cartridges left... what are they lying on the floor behind the commander... in general, the furs didn’t have time... I was thrown back... him in the end they pulled out... Sergei... but 2 gunpowder was enough... they put him barely alive almost next to him... told him to inject him with 200.... If anyone doesn’t know... 200... that’s 200 mg morphine and promedol... lethal
                      Z.y. I wrote for a long time... didn’t let me edit it
                    3. 0
                      April 2 2024 19: 47
                      ... I’m not sure that anyone has seriously researched it, but they still haven’t learned how to shoot at such speeds yet.

                      The cumulative effect and its action have long been known! The Germans were engaged in research back in the 40s. And they filmed the explosion of the cumulative ammunition using an X-ray camera.
                      1. 0
                        April 2 2024 19: 52
                        We were talking about the dispersion of a cumulative jet by liquids, read more carefully
            2. +1
              3 March 2024 06: 32
              good Not expected...
              I was just pleased with the way you thought. A rare combination of knowledge and the ability to put it on paper...
              1. +3
                3 March 2024 10: 05
                And you won’t get sick, Yuri lol
                ..............................................
        2. +1
          3 March 2024 12: 03
          Quote from alexoff
          They should have no idea, generals and other ministers should come to them and order them to prepare proposals as soon as possible in order to equip all the equipment with the necessary equipment within so many months
          Will not help. The military works strictly according to GOST standards. GOSTs provide for a whole set of measures that documentation and products must undergo before reaching the troops. Until she goes through these events, the PZ will not put a seal, nothing will go anywhere. And this bad thing is long, it’s good if it’s completed in a year. It is necessary, through DOGOZ, to decide on the adoption of an accelerated list of tests and certifications for products for SVO. Throw out, for example, the test for operation at -60 degrees (for the steppes of Ukraine this is unimportant), expand the list of permitted components, etc. Otherwise everything will take a very long time.
          Yes, and of course place an order; without technical specifications, the PP does not work; with initiative developments, it goes to the market.
          1. -2
            3 March 2024 14: 26
            If you think that it was easier in 1941, you are mistaken. And then there were enough Trotskyist utopians, enemies of the people, those who do not love the Motherland. There were those waiting for support from the German proletariat. But then they knew how to fight them. The practice of quick investigations despite all sorts of delays was very common.
          2. -2
            3 March 2024 17: 45
            Quote: bk0010
            The military works strictly according to GOST standards. GOSTs provide for a whole set of measures that documentation and products must undergo before reaching the troops. Until she goes through these events, the PZ will not put a seal, nothing will go anywhere.

            So, in theory, if someone even started, it would look like this - a telegram from the minister arrives at the plant, saying - where are the visors, they are suffering at the front! They write from the factory - and here the colonels and generals are fiddling with seals, conducting a bunch of checks, and six months are already dragging on. In response, they ask for the names of all these bureaucrats, and the next day they leave for long checks, where they find suitcases of cash and a US flag at their dacha, and then they leave to cut down Christmas trees in the taiga. After this, a delegation of tankers arrives at the plant, only from the front, they quickly decide with the engineers what and how to do, and exchange phone numbers. All. But we didn’t even start, I mean the high-sitting people didn’t even start to move
            1. +2
              3 March 2024 17: 52
              Quote from alexoff
              After this, a delegation of tankers arrives at the plant, only from the front, they quickly decide with the engineers what and how to do, and exchange phone numbers. All.
              And nothing will change; the issue is not only in people, but also in governing documents. They need to be adapted to wartime. They are made so that the documentation is complete, the equipment works in all climate zones, the enemy cannot remotely capture information, etc. Everything is checked, defects do not go to the troops. But this is a long time, this is for peacetime, when a delay in supplies is unpleasant, but not fundamental. But when lives are lost due to delays, something must be done.
              1. -1
                3 March 2024 20: 03
                Quote: bk0010
                And nothing will change; the issue is not only in people, but also in governing documents.

                Well, in the military department now it seems like there is a war and they have to choose - checkers or go. Something tells me that developing screens for equipment is not a very difficult technical task. And if it is solved only in the troops using improvised means, and the leadership limited itself to training manuals, then something is definitely rotten there and some need to retire, and some need to go to the bottle
                1. 0
                  4 March 2024 09: 04
                  You can see better from the couch, of course. But military acceptance will not allow equipment that does not comply with the specifications, be it for the better or for the worse. The industry strictly fulfills the technical specifications set by the Ministry of Defense. Therefore, you can direct your anger and bottles towards the admirals general.... just discrediting, and now no one has canceled the confiscation
                  1. -1
                    4 March 2024 23: 28
                    That’s what I wrote about - the factory does what you ordered, the acceptance strictly checks. And the office writes manuals on how fighters can deal with their problems themselves. This is the breakwater, who is it designed and built by? Volunteers. Not the military-industrial complex, apparently no one is demanding anything like that from the military-industrial complex. I won’t ask at whose expense the breakwater is being built. Surely everything is according to acceptance. With just one technique, they would probably have lost everything long ago.

                    Quote: Cympak
                    It’s just that the discrediting, and now no one has canceled the confiscation

                    Well, yes, I think very interesting cases can be opened, half of the commentators can be blamed for insulting the feelings of the generals. Surely they will also tell you in court that they did not produce manuals on self-rescue, but found some metal tile factory and repurposed it for canopies, filling our entire army with barbecues in six months
        3. +1
          3 March 2024 12: 59
          Do you think those from the Moscow Region who are supposed to come are aware of what is needed for this equipment?
      2. +2
        3 March 2024 12: 37
        Do they have any practical military service skills (not to mention combat experience)?

        How do you imagine simultaneously working as a top-level manager with the highest technical qualifications and continuously gaining personal (!), and even combat (!) experience in operating equipment?
        You cannot serve two gods! It is impossible to sweep the tram tracks and arrange the fate of some Spanish ragamuffins at the same time! No one can do this, doctor, and even more so - people who, in general, are 200 years behind the Europeans in development, are still not quite confident in buttoning their own pants!
        1. YOU
          +3
          3 March 2024 13: 03
          How do you imagine simultaneously working as a top-level manager with the highest technical qualifications and continuously gaining personal (!), and even combat (!) experience in operating equipment?

          There is only one but significant inconsistency in this message “with the highest technical qualifications”, read the biographies of many of our top managers, their places of study, previously held positions and places of work. And you will understand in many cases, it’s not just “higher”, there’s no technical stuff, literally at all. The same example is Slyusar. I think this is the root of many troubles. Not all of them, of course, but...
      3. +2
        3 March 2024 17: 45
        These “handjobs” are great at showing off and cutting money. And they are covered from the very top. The hand washes the hand.
    2. +2
      3 March 2024 11: 49
      "...we need to return the anti-aircraft guns." That's for sure! But the guns (machine guns) should no longer be the same. wink
      So, old-style tank ZPUs, such as DShK or NSVT with manual guidance drives, are of no use.
      Remotely controlled modules are needed that can hit small drones with grapeshot or shrapnel charges several tens of meters from the tank or with a projectile with remote detonation at a distance of up to 1000 m or more. In some ways, it is similar to KAZ in a simplified form, so instead of a radar, an optical-electronic guidance system can be used. And such a module should be located so that grilles and screens do not interfere with it.
      Yes, the massive use of drones has outpaced the preparation of means to combat them, but this is a solvable problem.
      It is so surprising that, they say, the drone control system changes frequencies, and what should be done in this case? What, suppression devices are not able to do the same?
      There is also, as usual, present
      and the problem of training personnel and organization. The fight against tactical-level drones should be allocated to a separate air defense section. Separate companies, platoons and anti-drone gunner squads have been created in units and subunits. Perhaps there should be an officer at the headquarters of a regiment or brigade who would be responsible for comprehensive defense specifically against FPVs and other small UAVs. For success can only be achieved when electronic warfare, anti-aircraft weapons, and the defeat of enemy operators at control points are used together.
    3. 0
      3 March 2024 17: 00
      What are you carrying? What GOSTs? The weapon model is created in accordance with the agreed technical specifications. If protection against drones is not specified there, then it will not exist. And they dragged in the soldiers' salaries. It's better to chew than to talk.
  2. +6
    3 March 2024 03: 50
    Interestingly, the author of the article has heard that when transporting goods by rail, there are requirements for dimensions? In height, width and length. I don’t think so, otherwise he wouldn’t be sketching.
    1. +6
      3 March 2024 04: 00
      What’s stopping you from drilling holes for the bolts in the right places at the factory, and putting the canopies in bundles along with the bolts in a separate car?
    2. +2
      3 March 2024 07: 52
      nothing prevents us from making sets of protective structures for combat vehicles dismountable and attaching an additional carriage with it to the train, and then sending a team of installers with welders, generators and other equipment on a business trip, benefiting from the small price of all this equipment, as a result, expensive equipment and the lives of military personnel are lost , they are saving on the wrong things
      1. +2
        3 March 2024 11: 31
        Sorry, but your logic is “I haven’t seen it, so it doesn’t exist in nature”
      2. -1
        3 March 2024 12: 51
        This is how it was done:
        dismountable kits
        - a construction set made from rolled metal and a welding machine is maximally flexible, assemble what you want, a dream for a young technician
        and then send a team of installers with welders, generators and other equipment on a business trip
        - here’s an advertisement with vacancies, they are looking for a team of “installers”. They are hiring all over Russia, even to persons with foreign citizenship.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +3
    3 March 2024 04: 45
    In this regard, the question arises: why aren’t dynamic protection units mounted on steel supports on such a valuable combat unit?
    How long can this topic be raised? The DZ block is a container with explosives and when it is triggered, the explosion energy is distributed in all directions.
  5. +7
    3 March 2024 05: 11
    Well, if the presented images really are the maximum that GABTU is capable of, then I have no censorship words. This is by the way from those who like to say “The giraffe knows best,” “We don’t have all the information, so we can’t draw conclusions,” etc. Well, gentlemen, court sycophants, what do you think of the creativity of people who should have this completeness of information? The Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation itself honored you with its attention. What do you say now? Does anything still bother you? The author was also moved by this, although he himself is still a conformist. And the BTR-82A, surrounded by bars, so that it is not able to perform its main function - transporting personnel, didn’t catch your eye? Don’t you want to laugh at, to quote you, “grave fences,” just as you laughed at the Ukrainians of 2014? You know, I have one very strong, but apparently difficult to fulfill, desire - that everyone who writes about an all-knowing, all-understanding boss could feel first-hand all the care and attention of the patrons they so adored, so that at their bottom they would feel what it’s like instead of normal sets add. reservations and really effective, new, innovative ways to combat drones, have hand-made meshes and gratings. Maybe then something will come to their senses in their brains, even if it’s too late.
    1. +3
      3 March 2024 06: 44
      Quote: Dante
      and really effective, new, innovative ways to combat drones,

      They don't exist yet. Nowhere. This happens when, in a shield/sword confrontation, one side suddenly qualitatively, leaps and bounds ahead of the other, then temporary solutions appear, such as ram bows on battleships... "Barbecues" from the same opera...
      1. +2
        3 March 2024 18: 28
        They don't exist yet. Nowhere.

        It was 35 years ago and now it’s gone...
        1. 0
          4 March 2024 12: 38
          Quote from: ln_ln
          It was 35 years ago and now it’s gone...

          So that was the concept!
          1. 0
            4 March 2024 23: 10
            So that was the concept!

            That's right! There was a concept!
  6. +2
    3 March 2024 05: 57
    . Vans from Ulyanovsk are far from the only victims of drone killers.

    And if there was a visor on the loaf, like on a tank, would that help?
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 07: 54
      would give some percentage to the probability of survival
  7. +2
    3 March 2024 06: 34
    Convenient! It turns out to be a very cozy house on wheels and there’s also a barbecue on top))
  8. +4
    3 March 2024 06: 58
    Well, how can such people fight, how will they drive off roads, in the forest and urban confines?
    These are all temporary solutions and you shouldn’t elevate THIS to an absolute (you need to know the limit). Rembats will cope, you can attract all sorts of private factories to produce kits
    1. +4
      3 March 2024 09: 22
      The idea of ​​putting an armored personnel carrier into a cage (like in a zoo) is a breakthrough technology, no less; to make the structure lighter, the cage can even be made of wood and with a hinged lid.
  9. BAI
    +3
    3 March 2024 09: 03
    1.
    The enemy has already become familiar with these manuals, so they do not represent military secrets.

    For the author's information, disclosure of a secret document by others does not remove the secrecy stamp from the document. Responsibility remains.
    2. Protection of the BTR-82. And how will the crew leave this structure after a mine explosion?
  10. +3
    3 March 2024 09: 20
    Without at all doubting the author’s competence, I would like to supplement his article with my perception of this situation. Let's imagine for a moment that the drones above the battlefield are simple infantrymen, and the equipment (tanks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, etc. in one word, MBT) and we will immediately see that the fight against this type of weapon is very difficult. What way out of this situation do I see to combat these mass weapons? The only way to fight it is on a massive scale. That is, until every infantryman has his own personal weapon to fight drones, drones will win. According to the staffing schedule, every infantryman (and not only) should have something similar to the RPG18 “Fly, for fighting MBT” only for fighting UAVs. PIPE, with a sight, shot and forgot. Then it will be possible to overcome this scourge.
  11. +4
    3 March 2024 09: 36
    Das.
    And how the media laughed at the homemade products of Ukrainians...
    And I remember that before the 24th, all this was simply not necessary. And everyone was alive
  12. 0
    3 March 2024 10: 27
    Why Nizhny Tagil, Arzamas, Miass, Naberezhnye Chelny or Kurgan did not bother to equip their equipment with truly up-to-date means of protection against drones remains a mystery.

    Have factories formulated such a task?
    Factories produce what they are ordered to produce.
    You can add something privately and on your own initiative. If the customer's representative accepts (at his own responsibility) a product that does not correspond to the sample...
    If workers, employees and the director first look for the opportunity to purchase materials...
    The question is not for the factories, but for the State Academic Technical University, that they cannot make changes to the State Defense Order and add funding. And time to implement changes.
  13. +2
    3 March 2024 10: 40
    Quote from alexoff
    What’s stopping you from drilling holes for the bolts in the right places at the factory, and putting the canopies in bundles along with the bolts in a separate car?


    Maybe it's something that's not covered in the documentation that's stopping you?
    Let's imagine that the entire plant decided to improve the design for the sake of business. And improved it. What will the acceptance be guided by? Documentation or information about the likely increase in the survivability of equipment? And then, if these improvements do not give 100 percent, someone may come to the conclusion that improvements are not guaranteed. And not agreed upon with the customer. And then who will be the last? And everyone who did not ensure the implementation of the State Defense Order in any part.
  14. 0
    3 March 2024 11: 39
    Statistics: Do you have Christmas trees? Only after this can we talk about the effectiveness of grilles and canopies!
  15. +1
    3 March 2024 11: 40
    GABTU also offers weaving protective nets in front-line conditions.


    Maybe from the “parquet employees” of that same GABTU, form brigades and send them to the front line so that they weave those very protective networks there and mount them, along with protective visors, on military equipment.....
  16. +2
    3 March 2024 11: 46
    Because it’s a railway, or rather a railway gauge. Without getting up from the couch, I guarantee that with nets and visors, armored vehicles will NOT FIT into the clearance!!!
    The best solution is to make the kit at the factory and transport it as part of the train, but this requires “extra” platforms.
    1. 0
      3 March 2024 13: 58
      The manufacturer of the equipment does not require a set of grilles; he is required to make fastenings on the equipment to install the grilles.
      1. +1
        3 March 2024 13: 59
        And mountings for equipment must be “certified” by military acceptance, as was written above. Otherwise, because of the “extra” hole, they may not accept the car and, in general, they will be right.
        1. -1
          3 March 2024 14: 01
          This is not a problem; a too picky acceptance representative may be waiting for a trip to Kolyma. And the path from there then proves itself to be right.
          1. +1
            4 March 2024 09: 39
            This is not a problem; a too picky acceptance representative may be waiting for a trip to Kolyma. And the path from there then proves itself to be right.

            What article will you submit for? The military representative acts strictly according to instructions and does not violate anything. He is required to check that the transferred equipment STRICTLY complies with the TK of the Moscow Region. If there are deviations from the TK of the Moscow Region, then he MUST return the equipment to the industry to eliminate the comments.
            In order for gratings to appear on equipment produced by the military-industrial complex, it is necessary for the Ministry of Defense to formulate the requirements, research and development work have been carried out, which will prove that technical solutions meet the requirements of the Ministry of Defense. Next, production documentation is developed, a pilot batch is produced, which first undergoes in-plant tests, and then tests by the Ministry of Defense. Only after this can modifications now be accepted by military acceptance. Want faster? It is necessary to change the procedure and remove unnecessary requirements (i.e., reduce the cost and number of tests), such as operation at +/-60 degrees Celsius and resistance to a nuclear explosion.
  17. +3
    3 March 2024 11: 47
    How many armored vehicles with visors and nets installed on them survived attacks by FPV drones? Are there statistics on them? Without her there is nothing to talk about!
  18. +1
    3 March 2024 11: 55
    How can you transport infantry on an armored personnel carrier protected in this way? Well, she’ll somehow manage to sit down, but if she has to get out urgently, then what should she do?
    IMHO, it is necessary to revive anti-aircraft artillery with a caliber of 76-100 mm.
    1. 0
      4 March 2024 16: 34
      Rather: how to shoot with such a barbecue with a high elevation of the barrel. Or back.
  19. 0
    3 March 2024 12: 20
    didn't really care

    Because it's a logistician's nightmare.
    In any case, all this will have to be screwed in place, from where the equipment will leave ONLY under its own power.
    During any transfer of equipment, it is all cut down. The plant can produce maximum parts for assembly, which is what is being done; profiles, angles, and electrodes are not rolled in trenches.
    But on the spot it is already decided whether anything is needed at all, or whether such a device is needed. Even some “standard” fasteners from the factory will be superfluous.
    The author does not realize that if the visor screwed to the turret goes beyond the hull when turning the turret, it will quickly be lost. On an armored personnel carrier you can still weld it to the body, but an infantry fighting vehicle will rip it all off itself instantly.
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 15: 49
      When playing baseball, the speed of the ball on serve is 140-160 km/h or \40 - 44 m/s (comparable to the speed of a UAV during an attack) and the player manages to hit this ball with a bat (wooden stick), this fact suggests that, in principle, you can come up with an analogue of a certain mechanical device capable of repelling drones flying into an armored personnel carrier at low speeds, by the way, the diameter of the pitch for playing baseball is 73mm
  20. 0
    3 March 2024 17: 20
    The reason for the lack of factory grilles and visors is the incorrect formulation of the problem. The plant that manufactures the equipment must make factory fastenings, and give the grilles themselves to third-party manufacturers. And additional fastenings can then be used either for attaching camouflage, or in some other way.
  21. 0
    3 March 2024 17: 47
    It would be a mistake to consider the installation of electronic suppression systems, such as the LGSh-608 and LGSh-609 noise generator, on front-line equipment as a panacea. Or the Volnorez UAV suppression complexes. The technology is necessary and useful, but it operates in a strictly defined frequency range, which does not always coincide with those of drones.
    The operation of a 300-watt noise generator is a fairly serious marker for enemy electronic reconnaissance.

    It remains to make electronic warfare systems smarter. In theory, an ether scanner is needed that identifies the closest sources of radio frequencies, and turns on a noise generator of precisely the detected frequency, only if such a source reaches a certain power threshold or distance. To do this, the scanner must have something like a radio range finder. Then electronic warfare will work only on business, and targeted. This will save energy and reveal less equipment. Technically, such an electronic warfare system will be an order of magnitude more complex, but where to go?
  22. BAI
    0
    3 March 2024 21: 34
    All these bells and whistles have one very big side benefit - they nullified Javelin. He also attacks from above
    1. 0
      4 March 2024 21: 31
      Quote: BAI
      All these bells and whistles have one very big side benefit - they nullified Javelin. He also attacks from above

      At the same time, they will protect against ballistic missiles! They're on top too! wassat
      The Javelins don’t care about the bars, just like the Cornet, or any modern ammunition with a tandem warhead.
  23. +1
    4 March 2024 00: 56
    There were videos where our "Lancets", whose warhead is a "shock core", effectively hit the armored vehicles of the Ukrovermacht, which were equipped with similar grilles/"barbecues". So the solutions proposed by GABTU are also not a panacea. And the appearance of such a manual from the Ministry of Defense is the result of the fact that at one time KAZs were not introduced into armored vehicles, which finally, in the third year of the war, the military department began to order! Yes, here on the site there was a “devastating” article about the theoretical shortcomings of the KAZ, but real life, I think, will put everything in its place. As for automotive equipment and armored vehicles - if the simplest scanner detects the presence of a DRONE in the sky, then a more complex one, I think, will be able to determine both the direction and range. And paired with such a scanner, it will probably be possible to install some kind of “drone striker”, or a microwave gun/suppressor, or something similar.
  24. 0
    4 March 2024 11: 08
    One constructive thought amid all this squabble: are there any experts here who can answer how the strobe affects the camera's performance? Especially working with its scanning (scanning?) frequency. If unfavorable, then it may result in an inexpensive (albeit imperfect) means of countering kamikaze UAVs, which can be installed on almost any equipment. And if the emitter operates in the near-infrared range, then the unmasking effect will be eliminated (reduced) even (especially) at night.. Something like that.
  25. 0
    4 March 2024 16: 31
    In the first picture of the article: do the canopy posts interfere with shooting? You can cut it with your own queue. And the middle pillars will prevent you from turning the gun to the rear hemisphere.
  26. 0
    5 March 2024 14: 17
    The topic is relevant and topical... I won’t talk about the moral and ethical side of this issue, I’ll just note that this “don’t care” will continue in the future, so how can there be no one to ask for this “mess”, and the Supreme Commander, it seems, doesn’t care about this report... There is a fairly simple and inexpensive way to solve THIS problem: put at the helm or control levers of such an underequipped tank or infantry fighting vehicle, a son or relative, the one who must make a decision on retrofitting and coordinate everything, and send this armored vehicle, together with my son, to the front line. I think that the issue will be closed within 24 hours...
  27. 0
    10 March 2024 13: 15
    It turned out that the most vulnerable to drones is Armata! And since there is essentially no turret on it, there is nowhere to hang a visor and the crew is in full view.
  28. 0
    April 4 2024 08: 59
    One thing is clear: the protection must be all-aspect, and everything that the designers strived for, strengthening the frontal projection and heading angles by multiples, turned out to be not entirely correct; there are practically no frontal collisions with direct fire between tank-tank and tank-anti-tank. Mounted fire, from the upper hemisphere, or generally like with drones from all sides. The “turtle” of the unforgettable Leonardo immediately comes to mind; armored vehicles should be designed according to this scheme. I myself am an architect and I see from the GAPTU schemes that a normal designer has not yet worked there, the collective farm is full.
  29. 0
    April 15 2024 19: 59
    Quote: Handwriting
    One thing is clear: the protection must be all-aspect, and everything that the designers strived for, strengthening the frontal projection and heading angles by multiples, turned out to be not entirely correct; there are practically no frontal collisions with direct fire between tank-tank and tank-anti-tank. Mounted fire, from the upper hemisphere, or generally like with drones from all sides. The “turtle” of the unforgettable Leonardo immediately comes to mind; armored vehicles should be designed according to this scheme. I myself am an architect and I see from the GAPTU schemes that a normal designer has not yet worked there, the collective farm is full.

    Well, yes! Ready-made equipment must be protected, no matter who argues. And not in the bushes, covered with a tarpaulin, but in a special workshop (mobile or not - that’s the second question). The main thing is that ALL military equipment must be designed taking into account protection from drones. Active protection.

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