Krupp armor of the Russian Empire. Let's go for the record

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Krupp armor of the Russian Empire. Let's go for the record

This article, and the materials that followed it, appeared thanks to a large array of data on firing tests of domestic armor-piercing shells with armor-piercing tips in the period 1901–1903, given by E. A. Berkalov in his book “Design of Naval Artillery Shells.” Analysis of this information led to a number of very unexpected conclusions.

Features of tests and reports about them


Firing was carried out with unloaded armor-piercing shells from the Perm, Obukhov and Putilov factories against armor plates hardened by the Krupp method. The thickness of the armor plates varied from 127 to 305 mm. These slabs were installed on the frame of a single structure, which did not change depending on the thickness of the slab, with one exception.

In all cases, a flat vertical steel jacket one and a half inches (38,1 mm) thick was installed on the vertical buttresses (frames). The jacket, however, was not monolithic, but consisted of three half-inch (12,7 mm) steel sheets stacked on top of each other. A 4-inch (102 mm) pine lining was laid on top of the shirt, on which the armor plate was installed. The exception was armor plate No. 83 of the Obukhov plant. It was curved, so the thickness of the pine lining underneath varied from 2 to 20 inches (50,8–508 mm).

All tested projectiles were equipped with armor-piercing tips of the “Makarov” system - although the design of the tip is not directly indicated, but in 1901–1903. There simply could not be any other tips.

Almost all shots were fired at normal (90 degrees). Two cases are described when shells hit at angles of 25 and 28 degrees, but both of these shots were fired at a curved plate - it can be assumed that these angles were not formed by the intention of the shooters, but as a result of deviation of the projectile trajectory in flight due to dispersion.

Since during testing there were cases when the projectile hit a place weakened by previous hits, such results were recorded, but were not counted and were specially noted. I'll do the same.

For each shot the following is indicated:

1. Caliber and exact weight of the projectile. For a projectile of the same caliber they differed slightly. For example, the difference between the heaviest and lightest 120-mm shells from the Obukhov plant was 153 grams.

2. The number of the armor plate, its thickness.

3. The speed of the projectile at the moment of impact on the armor and the angle of deviation from the normal. With rare exceptions it is zero.

4. Descriptions of what was pierced, whether the projectile remained intact, and where it or its fragments were found, and other additional information, such as the calculated “manpower” of the projectile.

Typically, test descriptions are limited to these data. But E. A. Berkalov also cites other, extremely important data that I have not encountered before:

1. Theoretical penetration velocity for this plate for a projectile without a tip. This is the first time I have come across this indicator, and its value is difficult to overestimate - thanks to it we will see the durability of domestically produced Krupp armor as our ancestors understood it in 1901–1903.

2. Something that I never expected to see is an indicator called the “slab coefficient”. This coefficient showed how much this particular armor plate was superior to a standard plate of equal thickness in terms of durability.

Thanks to such comprehensive information, I had the opportunity to evaluate both the calculated and actual durability of domestically made Krupp armor, as well as determine the capabilities of the armor-piercing tip of the “Makarov” design.



Но обо всем по порядку.

Resistance of Krupp armor - calculated values


Based on the above data, I created a table, below there will be comments on it.


So, the first thing I did was to calculate the “K” coefficient using the de Marre formula for both the actual and the reduced thickness of the armor plates. The method is very simple.

Let's take, for example, Izhora slab No. 56 of melt No. 1272 - its thickness was 127 mm. It is indicated that the coefficient of this slab is 1,19; and it must be penetrated by a 120 mm projectile weighing 20,17 kg without a tip at a speed of 2 feet per second (535 m/sec). In this case, calculations using the de Marre formula show “K” = 772,7. This will be the calculated value of the durability that is expected from this particular armor plate.

But you need to take into account that this particular slab turned out to be extremely good, and its durability is 19% higher than the standard. Therefore, it corresponded to 151,13 mm armor plate of standard resistance. Substituting into the calculation instead of 127 mm the actual thickness of the plate 151,13 mm, I get “K” = 2 - it was this coefficient that characterized the durability of a standard domestically produced Krupp plate in relation to a 265-mm projectile.

Here, perhaps, I would like to once again draw the attention of the dear reader to the peculiarity of the armor penetration formula derived by de Marr. The increase in the thickness of the armor is not directly proportional to the increase in the speed of the projectile at which it penetrates this armor (the speed of the projectile changes in proportion to the thickness of the armor to the power of 0,7). The “K” coefficient, on the contrary, changes in direct proportion to the speed. Therefore, an increase in the resistance (thickness) of armor by 19% requires an increase in “K” and the projectile speed to penetrate it by only 13,02%.

I would be happy to give not only the calculated values ​​of the “K” coefficient, but also the projectile velocities required to penetrate armor, but in this table this is impossible, since these velocities, although slightly, still differ depending on the mass of the projectiles. In the future, when I publish descriptions of each hit, these speeds, of course, will be presented to the dear reader.

The question arises: how was the actual durability of a particular armor plate determined?

E. A. Berkalov’s textbook does not contain a direct answer to this question, but it is indicated that for Obukhov plates No. 176 and 177 for 254-mm shells, this parameter was determined by test shots. It can be assumed that for other slabs it was installed in a similar way.

Conclusions


1. The most important conclusion that follows from the above calculations is the huge variation in the strength of domestically produced Krupp armor plates; the durability of individual copies could exceed the established standard by as much as 19%.

2. Exceeding the standard resistance of armor plates was the norm. Of the 13 armor plates, only 2 had strength that met the standard, the rest turned out to be stronger.

3. The durability of armor plates was calculated taking into account specific types of projectiles. So, for example, the same Obukhov plate No. 177 exceeded the standard one when exposed to 203-mm shells by 7,7% (plate coefficient 1,077), and when exposed to 254-mm shells - by only 2% (1,02). Which, of course, once again emphasizes that the coefficient “K” according to the de Marre formula determines the resistance of protection not “in general,” but in relation to a specific projectile.

4. The calculated “K” values ​​for non-curved armor plates fluctuate even within the same caliber of projectiles:

– 120 mm shells: 2–255 for slabs of given thickness and 2–265 for actual ones;

– 152 mm shells: 2–198 for plates of reduced thickness and 2–283 for actual thickness;

– 203-mm shells – 2–189 for plates of given thickness and 2–200 for actual ones;

– 254 mm shells – 2 for plates of given thickness and 161 for actual thickness;

– 305-mm shells – 2–181 for plates of given thickness and 2–204 for actual ones.

5. In general, there is a noticeable tendency that relatively thin plates in relation to projectiles of fairly small calibers show better resistance than plates of greater thickness under the influence of large calibers.

6. There is a strangeness in the calculations of the durability of a curved slab - the greater the deviation from the normal, the lower its calculated durability.

7. Curved armor has less durability than “flat” armor. Two armor plates with a thickness of 229 mm were subjected to fire from 152 mm shells, but the minimum “K” for a curved plate was 2, and for a flat one, 104.

Hypothesis about the difference in armor resistance


How could it happen that when making cemented slabs there was such a variation in durability? Here, alas, I can only speculate.

Obviously, if we take two absolutely identical workpieces and carry out absolutely identical operations on them, then as a result we will get two absolutely identical armor plates. But in life, of course, this does not happen - the composition of the workpieces varies, and the operations in the technical process are not carried out identically, but with some tolerances.

At the same time, the process of creating a cemented slab using the Krupp method is very difficult. I will give it briefly according to the description given by the respected P.V. Sakharov in his work “Making armor plates using the Krupp method.”

First, steel of a certain chemical composition is welded. Then it is melted in open-hearth furnaces and cast into cast iron molds into ingots that weigh 70% more than the weight of the plate in its final form.

Then the ingots are cooled, released from the mold, heated again and rolled to a state slightly thicker than necessary. Rolling lasts 40–55 minutes, and then back into the oven.

The workpiece, heated to 600 degrees, is now sent under a press, then cleaned of slag and impurities.

Then two slabs are taken, installed with cemented surfaces to each other so that the distance between them is several centimeters, and there, heated to almost a thousand degrees, these slabs stand for 7 to 20 days, and gas is released between them in order to “carbonize” surface to be cemented.


The hot plate is cooled in oil, while the oil itself is cooled by circulating water, heated again and then immersed in water. And then - again under the press, now giving the future slab the desired shape. Moreover, this process can be repeated if necessary if the required state of the workpiece is not achieved the first time.

And then back into the oven, but the process is more complicated than the previous one, because the task of hardening is to bring the temperature of the cemented layer to 800–900 degrees, while the non-cemented side should warm up to no more than 650 degrees. German engineers achieved this by laying the uncemented side of the slab on wet sand, which conducts heat well while the cemented surface remains exposed.

And finally, after this treatment, final hardening occurs with jets of water falling on the cemented plane.

Of course, the process of making Krupp plates in different countries was not identical, but remained to a certain extent similar. And it can be assumed that some deviations in the composition of the workpieces, as well as in the technological process (temperature conditions, etc.) led to the difference in the durability of armor plates shown above.

And here the second question arises - if there were a lot of armor plates whose durability exceeded the standard values, then how many armor plates were there that did not reach the standard?

It is impossible to say that there were none simply on the grounds that they were not used in testing the shells, since this would be a typical “survivor’s mistake.” Who knows, maybe some of the armor plates submitted for testing were rejected as a result of test shots, and Professor E.A. Berkalov simply did not indicate this in his work, since this was in no way related to the design of projectiles?

I assume (but this is only a hypothesis) that the standard strength of a domestically produced Krupp plate is the minimum, or close to it, resistance, which is achieved by observing the chemical composition of the steel and the requirements of the technical process. That is, the standard is the minimum strength that the slab will show, even if the vast majority of chemical and technological tolerances work against it. A decrease in durability below the standard occurs when the chemical composition of the workpiece initially does not meet the requirements, or violations of the technical process were committed, in other words, there was a deviation beyond the maximum permissible tolerances.

In support of this hypothesis I can say the following.

Obviously, there are some minimum and maximum values ​​of resistance that an armor plate can have if the boundary requirements for the chemical composition of its workpiece and the technical process are met. Simply put, if all the tolerances are a plus, we will get a slab of the best strength, and if, on the contrary, it is a minus, then the strength will be minimal. Between these minimum and maximum the durability of the armor plates produced will vary. But it is quite difficult to imagine that the deviations and tolerances were such that the durability of the slab varied by plus or minus 19% from the average value.

Again, if we assume that, for example, the standard resistance was set at a certain average level, then in this case approximately half of the armor plates would be below the required level and would not be accepted by the customer. But then we would have evidence of regular and massive discarding of armor, which I have never come across in the sources. Yes, there were defects, yes, some batches were rejected, of course, but not half of what was produced.

So I think my hypothesis is correct. I also assume that it is fair and applicable to armor not only from domestic, but also from foreign manufacturers.

Very important note


As mentioned above, the firing tests, on the basis of which the above conclusions were made, were carried out in the period 1901–1903. But we must not forget that the requirement that the projectile, while penetrating armor, remain intact was formulated later - only in 1905.

This leads to a very simple conclusion: the above “K” coefficients meet the requirements for penetrating armor without preserving the integrity of the projectile. If we set the condition for preserving the projectile as a whole, then in order to fulfill it, the projectile speeds on the armor must be greater, and the “K” of domestic armor will be higher than those given in the table in this material.

Next we will look at the results of firing tests for all calibers: from 120 mm to 305 mm.

To be continued ...
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  1. 0
    3 March 2024 03: 50
    Let's take, for example, Izhora slab No. 56 of melt No. 1272 - its thickness was 127 mm. It is indicated that the coefficient of this slab is 1,19; and it must be penetrated by a 120 mm projectile weighing 20,17 kg without a tip at a speed of 2 feet per second (535 m/sec). In this case, calculations using the de Marre formula show “K” = 772,7. This will be the calculated value of the durability that is expected from this particular armor plate.

    But you need to take into account that this particular slab turned out to be extremely good, and its durability is 19% higher than the standard. Therefore, it corresponded to 151,13 mm armor plate of standard resistance. Substituting into the calculation instead of 127 mm the actual thickness of the plate 151,13 mm, I get “K” = 2 - it was this coefficient that characterized the durability of a standard domestically produced Krupp plate in relation to a 265-mm projectile.


    It hasn't started yet.
    It has always been the case that if a high speed was required to penetrate a slab with a given projectile, then K increased, i.e. the “slab price” increased.
    In the quoted example, the standard price of the slab is 2560, but the actual price will be higher, let’s say off the top of my head, about 2800 (I didn’t count), and not 2256.
    But if, on the contrary, the plate is of lower quality than the standard one, then for a given projectile and speed, you will no longer need a 5" plate, but a 6" one. And then the actual number K will be equal to 2265.
    1. 0
      4 March 2024 15: 01
      Quote: Jura 27
      In the quoted example, the standard price of the slab is 2560, but the actual price will be higher, let’s say off the top of my head, about 2800 (I didn’t count), and not 2256.

      Yura, re-read the text.
      Quote: Jura 27
      It is indicated that the coefficient of this slab is 1,19; and it must be penetrated by a 120 mm projectile weighing 20,17 kg without a tip at a speed of 2 feet per second (535 m/sec).

      That is, the speed is given not for a standard slab, but specifically for this particular one, which has a durability that is 19% higher. A standard slab of this thickness would require a lower penetration rate
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 07: 00
        it must be penetrated by a 120 mm veso projectile

        It must break through - this is an indication of the standard, the correct phrase sounds like this: it was broken through....
        Hence the confusion, especially in the absence of a table at the time of publication of the post.
        Let's move on: the first control shot is fired at the calculated speed for the price of the plate according to technical conditions (minimum permissible armor resistance), if the plate is not penetrated, then the speed increases and when the penetration speed is reached, the true price of the plate is determined (set K).
        The table calculates K for technical conditions (min. armor resistance). What for ?
        After all, he must ask himself. Or does Berkalov not bring him?
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 08: 14
          Quote: Jura 27
          The table calculates K for technical conditions (min. armor resistance). What for ?
          After all, he must ask himself. Or does Berkalov not bring him?

          Only the plate coefficient and the speed required for a projectile of a given specific weight to penetrate it are given. That is, the speed changes slightly depending on the weight of the projectile.
  2. 0
    3 March 2024 03: 55
    it can be assumed that these angles were formed not by the intention of the shooters, but as a result of deviation of the projectile trajectory in flight due to dispersion.

    From a hundred meters or less - dispersion?
    1. +4
      3 March 2024 03: 59
      on armor plates hardened by the Krupp method

      Krupp (krupp) armor is not only hardening, but also the chemical composition and this always two in one bottle.
    2. +9
      3 March 2024 07: 43
      Well, first of all, not 100 meters.
      If on the fingers, To the issue of “dispersion”. This factor is always present during the firing of a shot, and the key is not always (forgive the tautology) the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to the target. A few points offhand:
      1. The quality of the powder charge and its temperature.
      2. The condition of the barrel, not only its mechanical properties, but also heating or lead contamination, the presence of powder soot, etc.
      3. The projectile itself (bullet).
      4. Condition of the anti-recoil device.
      5. Unusual situations. For example, a long shot.
      Adding to this metrological and other factors, we are surprised to come to the conclusion that “the projectile does not hit in one place.” This happens, but rarely.
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 07: 02
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Well, first of all, not 100 meters.
        If on the fingers, To the issue of “dispersion”. This factor is always present during the firing of a shot, and the key is not always (forgive the tautology) the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to the target. A few points offhand:
        1. The quality of the powder charge and its temperature.
        2. The condition of the barrel, not only its mechanical properties, but also heating or lead contamination, the presence of powder soot, etc.
        3. The projectile itself (bullet).
        4. Condition of the anti-recoil device.
        5. Unusual situations. For example, a long shot.
        Adding to this metrological and other factors, we are surprised to come to the conclusion that “the projectile does not hit in one place.” This happens, but rarely.

        All this is almost irrelevant due to the short firing range.
        The reason for such a large meeting angle (from the normal) was indicated by Berkalov and given in the post.
        You just need to read and understand what is written.
  3. +6
    3 March 2024 04: 39
    And here the second question arises - if there were a lot of armor plates whose durability exceeded the standard values, then how many armor plates were there that did not reach the standard?

    My respect, deeply respected Andrew!

    Your absolutely logical question vividly reminded us of the ordeals that our people had to go through when accepting armor plates for the Tsarevich.
    During the construction of the battleship, Creuzot presented twelve batches of side and turret armor plates for testing. Four of them had to be made anew because the plates did not pass fire tests.
    They fired shells that were too heavy, as the French claimed, but they fired the same shells at the slabs of the Izhora plant, and there were no problems there.
    1. +3
      3 March 2024 14: 31
      Good afternoon. Dear Valentin!
      Quote: Comrade
      During the construction of the battleship, Creuzot presented twelve batches of side and turret armor plates for testing. Four of them had to be made anew because the plates did not pass fire tests.

      If my memory serves me correctly, the Tsesarevich was not equipped with Krupp armor, but, let’s say, its French analogue, which was made using slightly different technology.
      1. +4
        4 March 2024 02: 57
        Hello, dear Andrey!

        If you believe Melnikov, then Krupp.
        It was not immediately possible to convince the company of the need to order Krupp armor after all. The company did not stop trying to impose on the customer Harvey's armor, which was already outdated by that time. The arguments were simple: in France, the new armor had not yet been used at the time the contract was signed. I had to shame the company with the example of the domestic Izhora plant, which had already concluded an agreement with the Krupp company and successfully tested new armor plates. This is obviously what the French armor factories should have done as well..
        1. +2
          4 March 2024 08: 38
          Good morning, dear Valentin!
          Yes, here my memory failed me - there was a different story, the French, having bought a patent and producing armor based on it, were faced with the fact that it was no good and inferior to the French one :))) To which Krupp rightly noted that to buy a patent It’s not enough, you still need to learn how to produce using technology :)))
          1. 0
            5 March 2024 03: 20
            Hello, dear Andrey!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Krupp rightly noted that buying a patent is not enough, you also need to learn how to produce using the technology :)))

            I didn’t pay attention before, but now I re-read it, and it immediately caught my eye. From the quote it follows that the type of armor for the “Tsarevich” was not specified in the contract. Therefore, it can be assumed that, as in the case of the Retvizan, the Tsarevich was supposed to have the default armor that was installed on French battleships at the time the contract was signed. That is, Harvey.
            I had to “shame” the French so that they would install Krupp armor.
            The question arises: did our people have to pay extra for installing Krupp armor on the Tsarevich? As far as I know the French, these are not the kind of people who can be forced to fork out money by shame :-)
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 11: 15
              Quote: Comrade
              As far as I know the French, these are not the kind of people who can be forced to fork out money by shame

              Yes, “shaming” the French is “strong”, but other actions influenced them. For example; When, during the production of shell casings, it became clear that there were signs of financial fraud in this matter, an investigation was launched. The press “shouted” about patriotism, honor and conscience, a big scandal was brewing. The representative, as they would now say, of the investor, and he was Rothschild, told the representative of the French government that the banks would stop financing French projects and all the indignation subsided, and the investigation stopped.
              The proverb “shame is not smoke, it does not corrode the eyes” very well characterizes many of the actions of the French.
  4. +2
    3 March 2024 07: 28
    Andrey good morning! Thanks for the article, I liked it!!!
    1. +2
      3 March 2024 12: 25
      Good morning, Vladislav, thank you!
      However, for some reason the data table is not visible in the article. Wrote in support
  5. -6
    3 March 2024 08: 01
    I once again draw the attention of all other readers to the acute reluctance of Andrey from Chelyabinsk to write his articles based on strictly documentary archival data, but only on various literary sources that may be mistaken or lie. So in this article, Andrei is based not on data from the archive, but on Berkalov’s book, which he was lucky enough to find or obtain, and on its basis he builds all his thoughts. I will explain that if all other amateurs perceive him as Christ bringing them the truth, then do not exaggerate Andrei’s achievements. If the rest of you didn’t get your hands on Berkalov’s book, it doesn’t mean that you are stupider than Andrey, it’s just that the rest of you were a little unlucky.
    The point is that many decades ago, my school friend and comrade told me a wonderful idea that it is necessary to rely on PRIMARY SOURCES, and not on retellings of strangers. And the primary sources are archival documents. And so Andrey bases his reasoning and assumptions not on archival documents about the number of fired slabs, but on naked assumptions that supposedly among them there were not only good-quality but also rejected slabs. Wouldn’t it have been easier for him to look into the archived data? Here I want to whitewash Andrei by saying that, in my opinion, there is simply no useful and interesting data in the naval archive at all - more precisely, they exist, but they lie in highly secret departments where entry is prohibited to everyone except specially admitted ones like R.F. Melnikov (who died a long time ago).
    And here I must apologize to the readers for the fact that I still have not responded with counterarguments to Andrei and other opponents on his last article - I, like all other people, have a lot of worries, and laziness and hands do not get around to it. And in particular, the wonderful author Rytik accused me of the fact that I myself had not personally been to the naval archive and therefore supposedly I did not dare to claim that everything was classified there. But I may still answer him in detail, but now only briefly. You all should know that in addition to the real repository of historical documents, the Russian Naval Archive also has a complete copy of itself: an archive of digitized documents and here is its email address: https://rgavmf.ru/
    And anyone, thousands of kilometers away, can easily access this electronic archive and look at any documents that interest him. But for some reason Andrey does not want to look into this archive and write his articles not based on literary sources, but on reliable documents. And I’ll tell you why he doesn’t want to use the archive: I myself tried to find the information I was interested in there and saw absolutely nothing!!
    1. +3
      3 March 2024 09: 28
      Technical indicators of steel during gas carburization are available in the literature on metallurgy, materials science (for example, Koretsky, Cementation of Steel), in technical articles, reference books, and standards. If we do not limit ourselves only to historical materials and documents, then many indicators of armor and projectile material can be accepted reasonably.
    2. +9
      3 March 2024 09: 49
      I once again draw the attention of all other readers to the acute reluctance of Andrey from Chelyabinsk to write his articles based on strictly documentary archival data, but only on various literary sources that may be mistaken or lie.

      Curious, do they have this archival data? If so, where and by whom were they published? Share the secret!!!
      Surprisingly, a number of comrades enter into discussions about “truth”, forgetting the main thing that the purpose of Andrei’s work is non-scientific research, but primarily personal research on a topic that interests him. What he decided to share with the results is his right. Moreover, he does not hide his sources from most Authors, but directly refers to them.
      Well, the second aspect of the critical brethren is the capabilities of the Author. Living in the Urals, it’s hard to “rummage” through the archives of St. Petersburg.
      1. -3
        3 March 2024 17: 18
        Curious, do they have this archival data? If so, where and by whom were they published? Share the secret!!!

        Are you good with logic or not? First you ask: is there any specific archival data in nature at all? There can be two answers: either the archival data of interest does not exist at all and never existed. Either there is archival data but it is classified; allow for a second such a monstrous assumption.
        But if we assume the archival data is classified, then how can you ask whether they are PUBLISHED or not?
        Now try to strain your brains and think about the questions: were there experimental test firings of LOADED shells at armor plates or were such shellings not carried out? And if there were such shellings, were the documents about them put in the archives or thrown in the trash? Note: Andrey from Chelyabinsk is silent like a fish about this.
    3. +7
      3 March 2024 14: 14
      Quote: geniy
      The point is that many decades ago, my school friend and comrade told me a wonderful idea that it is necessary to rely on PRIMARY SOURCES, and not on retellings of strangers. And the primary sources are archival documents.

      In your naivety, you think that archival documents contain the ultimate truth.
      I will disappoint you - this is not so.
      One of the reasons is absolutely banal: any document is written by a person, and a person has his own view on this or that phenomenon.

      Quote: geniy
      And anyone, thousands of kilometers away, can easily access this electronic archive and look at any documents that interest him. But for some reason Andrey does not want to look into this archive and write his articles not based on literary sources, but on reliable documents. And I’ll tell you why he doesn’t want to use the archive: I myself tried to find the information I was interested in there and saw absolutely nothing!!

      It seems winter depression has given way to spring psychosis.... wassat
      1. -6
        3 March 2024 17: 31
        In your naivety, you think that archival documents contain the ultimate truth.
        I will disappoint you - this is not so.
        One of the reasons is absolutely banal: any document is written by a person, and a person has his own view on this or that phenomenon.

        Yes, I actually assume that all test firing was carried out completely incorrectly and with gross errors using incorrect methods. So by this you do not refute me at all.
        But in this topic it is not so important that the shelling technique was correct or incorrect. In any case, for each fact of a shot, a document must be drawn up, which must be placed in the archive and stored there. So, a question for you: do you only object to the incorrectness of the documents, or do you think that these documents are not in the archive?
        1. +2
          3 March 2024 20: 03
          Quote: geniy
          So, a question for you: do you only object to the incorrectness of the documents, or do you think that these documents are not in the archive?

          You, as usual, confuse warm with soft: I did not talk about the presence or absence, correctness or incorrectness of documents, I only spoke about your naive confidence that a document can become the ultimate truth.
          1. -4
            3 March 2024 20: 12
            I was only talking about your naive confidence that the document could become the ultimate truth.

            Well, if you want, I can easily show your naivety too.
            I’m not talking at all about what is written in specific documents and is it possible to prove something? All I'm talking about is: do specific documents even exist or not? Can they be seen in the public domain or not? And based on this: are there secret archives departments or not?
    4. +6
      3 March 2024 15: 07
      Quote: geniy
      I once again draw the attention of all other readers to the acute reluctance of Andrey from Chelyabinsk to write his articles based on strictly documentary archival data, and

      Dear colleague, in this case, let me draw your attention to your “acute reluctance” to sit down and write an article based solely on archival documents.

      By the way, you are completely wrong to believe that the final, factual truth is hidden in them.
      I remember that in the late 80s in Leningrad, the Melnikov you mentioned was able to find in the archive a document refuting the opinion that had been established for decades, also based on archival documents.
      And in the end, none of the fleet historians known at that time objected to him. So the document is a basis for thinking and comparing, and not praying for it.
      1. +3
        3 March 2024 16: 00
        Quote: Comrade
        By the way, you are completely wrong to believe that the final, factual truth is hidden in them.
        I remember that in the late 80s in Leningrad, the Melnikov you mentioned was able to find in the archive a document refuting the opinion that had been established for decades, also based on archival documents.

        Good afternoon.
        There are such examples in history, but basically our opinion is formed on the basis of mass publications. New facts require discussion in scientific circles, but in the era of the “golden calf” it is required that it generate income; if there is no profit, they are “dismissed” and everything remains in place.
        1. +3
          3 March 2024 18: 02
          Hello, dear Igor.
          Quote: 27091965i
          Basically, our opinion is formed on the basis of mass publications. New facts require discussion in scientific circles,


          There is a lot of truth in your words, however, enthusiasts will never give up. Some of them, trying to get to the bottom of the truth, run the risk of going to jail, as we can see in the example of today's Germany.
          There, in Germany, attempts to discuss newly discovered facts that are directly related to certain topics are strictly prohibited.
          We do not live in the era of the “golden calf” as in a dystopia.
          1. +2
            3 March 2024 22: 34
            Quote: Comrade
            We do not live in the era of the “golden calf” as in a dystopia.

            Dear Valentine, dystopia is created by the owners of the “golden calf”; they are also trying to rewrite history and impose very “strange values” on us. The worst thing is that they are quite successfully promoting these plans in different countries and it is very difficult to fight them.
            1. +2
              4 March 2024 03: 01
              Quote: 27091965i
              The worst thing is that they are quite successfully promoting these plans in different countries and it is very difficult to fight them

              Yes, dear Igor, you are one hundred percent right. All we can do is teach children to distinguish between good and evil. At the same time, persistently explaining why they should hide what they have learned from others.
      2. -4
        3 March 2024 17: 53
        By the way, you are completely wrong to believe that the final, factual truth is hidden in them.

        Yes, I don’t think that the whole truth would be revealed. But the answer to the question is fundamentally important: or are there still particularly secret archives about the times long before the Russo-Japanese War, during the REV and the First World War? Or are there no such secret sections in the archives at all?
      3. -5
        3 March 2024 17: 59
        I remember that in the late 80s in Leningrad, the Melnikov you mentioned was able to find in the archive a document refuting the opinion that had been established for decades, also based on archival documents.
        And in the end, none of the fleet historians known at that time objected to him. So this document is

        In fact, I have huge complaints against Melnikov, I am sure that Melnikov personally participated in deceiving readers and hiding the truth about the ships of the Russo-Japanese War, and perhaps Melnikov personally participated in the falsification of archival documents.
        1. +4
          3 March 2024 19: 01
          Quote: geniy
          I am sure that Melnikov personally participated in deceiving readers

          Rafail Mikhailovich is a child of his era; let us not judge him harshly for his attempts to manipulate the consciousness of his readers. Personally, I am grateful to him because, thanks to his books, I developed an interest in naval history.
          And let's not forget that he did not have the opportunity to draw information for his books from Japanese Internet archives. Therefore, Melnikov had at his disposal only our documents, but there very often - as it became known today - there were lies. Let's remember the Askold, which sank Japanese destroyers right and left and smashed the Asamoids.
          Or the consumption of ammunition on the Varyag. The commander of the cruiser lied, and Melnikov, without knowing it, used this and other lies in his book.

          By the way, here are examples of when archival documents lie.
          1. 0
            3 March 2024 20: 52
            Rafail Mikhailovich is a child of his era; let us not judge him harshly for his attempts to manipulate the consciousness of his readers.
            personally, I respect Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov very much and I even corresponded with him a little (one letter) until he died. And he is right in many ways.
            And the fact that he was forbidden to cover some very important aspects (figuratively speaking, almost at gunpoint) and the fact that I assume that perhaps he falsified the drawings of the battleship Borodino is just my personal assumption, which may be deeply erroneous. Plato is my friend but the truth is dearer.
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 18: 44
              Quote: geniy
              perhaps he falsified the drawings of the battleship Borodino, so this is just my personal assumption, maybe deeply erroneous

              In the heat of the general discussion, I forgot to ask: on what basis did this assumption arise?
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 18: 58
                In the heat of the general discussion, I forgot to ask: on what basis did this assumption arise?

                Melnikov wrote the book "Battleship Borodino". And carefully examining the drawing of this ship from his book, I did not see one very secret device that is on the drawings of other ships. Therefore, I believe that Melnikov personally erased the name of this device with an eraser when copying it into his book. Well, he also kept silent and hid from readers some very important features of naval artillery firing.
                1. +2
                  5 March 2024 19: 00
                  Quote: geniy
                  And carefully examining the drawing of this ship from his book, I did not see one very secret device that is on the drawings of other ships. Therefore, I believe that Melnikov personally erased the name of this device with an eraser when copying it into his book.

                  And what kind of device is this?

                  Quote: geniy
                  Well, he also kept silent and hid from readers some very important features of naval artillery firing.

                  Which ones?
                  1. -1
                    5 March 2024 19: 22
                    And what kind of device is this?

                    It's a big secret. Because if I even say a word, a fight like this will start, lasting maybe a year.
                    And I’m just going to write a big book, and then you’ll criticize. And now you are all just distracting me from writing the article that you yourself are all asking for.
                    Which ones?

                    Very important features that will change the views of all smart people on how all naval battles and battles actually took place.
                    But I won’t say them in a nutshell either - the fight will be too gigantic. Famous historians deceive you on many factors. We need to write a book.
                    1. +2
                      5 March 2024 19: 43
                      Quote: geniy
                      It's a big secret. Because if I even say a word, a fight like this will start, lasting maybe a year.

                      That's bad luck... now I'll have to compare the drawings from Melnikov's book with the album of drawings myself in order to find what Raf rubbed there... :(

                      Quote: geniy
                      And I’m just going to write a big book, and then you’ll criticize.

                      I'll be looking forward to...

                      Quote: geniy
                      And now you are all just distracting me from writing the article that you yourself are all asking for.

                      Why are you sitting here, wasting your precious time?

                      Quote: geniy
                      Very important features that will change the views of all smart people on how all naval battles and battles actually took place.
                      But I won’t say them in a nutshell either - the fight will be too gigantic.

                      What is the fight about? The last classic artillery battle took place almost 80 years ago. Who is interested in such antiquity?
                      1. -1
                        5 March 2024 21: 03
                        I'll be looking forward to...
                        Don't wait in vain. I have a lot of other topics. For example, those on whom the well-being and security of all of Russia depends. or how Russia can quickly win this war. or how to ruin the entire Western world.
                        What is the fight about? The last classic artillery battle took place almost 80 years ago. Who is interested in such antiquity?

                        Suppose I write a book about how shells in Tsushima flew backwards and forwards? Or that the Russians and Japanese shot in Tsushima using laser sights and achieved a 156% hit rate - You personally won’t be outraged by such statements and won’t you start drooling like thousands of other experts?
                      2. 0
                        5 March 2024 23: 11
                        Quote: geniy
                        You personally won’t be outraged by such statements and won’t you start drooling like thousands of other experts?

                        I'll ask for proof.
                        If they are convincing, then why not agree?
                      3. -1
                        5 March 2024 23: 31
                        I'll ask for proof.
                        If they are convincing, then why not agree?

                        Both you and thousands of other readers will definitely demand evidence, and of course I am ready to provide it. But the fact is that, as I say many times, all documentary evidence lies in highly secret archives where no one has access. But I can provide ironclad evidence on many points. But only smart people can believe this. And this will require a gigantic discussion.
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2024 18: 46
                        Quote: geniy
                        But I can provide iron-clad evidence on many points. But only smart people can believe this. And this will require a gigantic discussion.

                        Pushed it powerfully... Inspires... (c)
                        <Two Torn Towers>
                2. 0
                  11 March 2024 07: 32
                  Interesting. A secret device lying about 100 years old at the bottom of the ship. Something alien?
                  With all due respect to Melnikov, he nevertheless set a certain standard and was the first; he dragged into his books only what was beneficial for him to push through his point of view. Maybe it wasn’t so noticeable in the first three books, but then it came out of all the cracks.
                  1. 0
                    11 March 2024 15: 48
                    Firstly, why do you think that if I’m talking about the Borodino drawing, then it’s as if I’m talking only about this ship? After all, according to his drawings, with some differences, five battleships were built and each of them should have had such products and structures. And this also happened on all Russian and Japanese ships without exception. BUT not only in Russian, but also in all foreign ones. So if you want, you can look for these devices on the cruiser Aurora or on the battleship Mikaza - but I guarantee that you will not find anything - everything was dismantled a long time ago. And this happened not only on Russians, but also on all foreign ships. For example, on the ancient monitor Guascar, or the Greek cruiser Averov. Or on an English museum cruiser, or on American museum battleships. If you look better, you might find it.
                    So you don’t believe me that this is deeply classified?
                    Well, I won’t tell you all anything unless I write a book about it someday.
                    1. 0
                      11 March 2024 16: 03
                      There is no point in keeping secret what lies at the bottom or is everywhere.
                      1. 0
                        11 March 2024 16: 24
                        There is no point in keeping secret what lies at the bottom or is everywhere.

                        Why do you focus only on those ships that lie at the bottom?
                        after all, thousands of ships were built all over the world, each of which had this secret device and room.
                        Moreover, books with a total circulation of hundreds of thousands of copies were published where the designation of this was written in black and white. But stupid readers simply did not pay attention, and then Melnikov realized that he was revealing a huge secret and, according to my assumption, began to erase those drawings that he was going to publish in his book.
                        but there are several more secret aspects that at first glance are of no interest at all, but in fact they are classified.
                        That’s it, I won’t tell you anything more and I’ll stop discussing this topic.
            2. 0
              11 March 2024 07: 47
              In general, those pictures that are called drawings and end up in books are just pictures. They were torn apart and compiled from some factory drawings. Moreover, it is unclear at what stage these drawings were. It's understandable though. At this stage, we believe what we find. Now modellers are ready to go crazy and make the best and most detailed drawing or 3D model. And in factories, believe me, no one bothers with this. Drawings are made in order to build a product, and not to publish books. And the installation of some equipment could be done either according to a sketch or even “pointed with a finger.” Nowadays they make drawings for everything. Back then there weren’t even enough people to do it. And even in skilled England, ships were built and they did not have a complete set of drawings. There is a copy - blue - of the original general drawing in the museum of the icebreaker "Angara". They found it on the Armstrong and sent it in the 90s. Nothing special. But you have to believe it. This was all drawn by hand, with a pencil. In this case, any scale must be treated with leniency. Now you can draw it 1:1 in AutoCAD. And all sorts of standard products are simply copied. And draw everything up to the fasteners. On paper? Yes, no way! “Drawers” ​​were in short supply and had plenty of work to do.
              Yes, even now, for example, there is no such drawing of the Su-27 aircraft. This is such a general and approximate picture that you are amazed. And not only everyone will be able to search for information from plasma sources and piles of drawings for units. You must have access. But nothing is ready.
              But the ship is more complicated. And the production culture then was incomparable to what it is today.
      4. -1
        3 March 2024 20: 44
        Dear colleague, in this case, let me draw your attention to your “acute reluctance” to sit down and write an article based solely on archival documents.

        Comrade! You, like everyone else, also mixed two different questions together: 1 Just Write an article and 2 Based on archival documents.
        Firstly: I can easily write an article, but I have a damned habit of writing very large and long articles tediously and for a long time with a lot of labor. I had already started a week ago, but other things distracted me. And you have no idea what a big tangle of problems and deceptions is hidden in the topic of the Russian-Japanese War.

        Your second question: this article must be written based on archival data. And I’ve been trying to explain to you all all day that the necessary archival data is not OPEN ACCESS at all!!! All of them lie in deeply secret sections of the archives. Well, how many times must I repeat this! Writing such an article is like asking you to get a star from the sky - it’s so easy and quick!
        That is, in addition to numerous purely technical parameters of the shells, I also need to prove to you that many documents are hidden from you in secret departments of the archives. And how to do this so that you understand, well, at least one out of ten of you, or one out of a hundred! Yes, this can be described using logical proofs, but to understand the simplest logic you need at least a little reading. Of course, I'll still try, but I can't promise it will be soon. Yes, and the moderator may prohibit me from publishing my article.
    5. +4
      4 March 2024 08: 46
      Quote: geniy
      You all should know that in addition to the real repository of historical documents, the Russian Naval Archive also has a complete copy of itself: an archive of digitized documents and here is its email address: https://rgavmf.ru/

      Maybe it’s enough to make people laugh? If you had worked at least a little with this site, you would have known that there is not a “full digital copy” there, but, basically, only inventories of funds. That is, you can find the storage location of the documents of interest in the format Fund 2, Inventory 1, Storage Unit 107, but that’s all.
      1. -3
        4 March 2024 09: 13
        If you had worked at least a little with this site, you would have known that there is not a “full digital copy” there, but, basically, only inventories of funds. That is, you can find the storage location of the documents of interest in the format Fund 2, Inventory 1, Storage Unit 107, but that’s all.

        Yes please. Please. After all, I don’t care about this issue and need a detailed description of those tests. It is enough just to know that such tests were carried out and that documents about those tests are stored in the archive in the public domain. Therefore, for you and anyone else, to prove that you are right, all you need to do is provide the fund number and a title with something like this: tests of large-caliber shells fired at armored plates by the Russian fleet. And the text itself does not interest me at all in this matter.
        1. +3
          4 March 2024 09: 23
          Quote: geniy
          It is enough just to know that such tests have been carried out

          That is, you got it into your head that these tests were carried out on a regular basis, and you suggest that I find them in the archive? :)))))
          1. -3
            4 March 2024 09: 36
            That is, you got it into your head that these tests were carried out on a regular basis, and you suggest that I find them in the archive? :)))))

            Yes, imagine that this is really true! That is, first, when designing each new type of projectile, after checking the mechanical strength of the body by firing unloaded shots, firing with LOADED ammunition follows in order to practice the correct action of the fuses and a good high explosive explosion of the explosive charge. And all these experimental firings had to be documented and stored in the archive.
            And then the gross production of shells begins. And then from each new batch one test fully assembled LOADED projectile is taken at random and a shot is fired.
            I was told by two people who worked at a shell production plant that only once in the Soviet army a shell did not explode (on their conscience and in their memory) and then the entire plant was deprived of bonuses, all suppliers of materials were shaken.
            1. +3
              4 March 2024 10: 20
              Quote: geniy
              Yes, imagine that this is really so!

              Sorry, but the burden of proof for a claim lies with the person who made it. You came up with it - you have to prove it.
              Quote: geniy
              followed by firing with LOADED ammunition in order to practice the correct action of the fuses and a good high explosive explosion of the explosive charge

              Unfortunately, there is no information about such tests. Dig through the archives, maybe you’ll find it.
              Quote: geniy
              And then from each new batch one test fully assembled LOADED projectile is taken at random and a shot is fired.
              I was told by two people who worked at a shell production plant that only once in the Soviet army

              There is no need to confuse the times of the Soviet army and the tsarist navy. The methods for accepting shells were completely different back then. In the USSR - yes, all this was done. And in Tsarist Russia, during large-scale tests by shooting at “Chesma”, problems with fuses suddenly became clear.
              If under the Tsar-Father everything had been tested, as you write here, then problems would have surfaced much earlier.
              1. -5
                4 March 2024 11: 58
                Sorry, but the burden of proof for a claim lies with the person who made it. You came up with it - you have to prove it.

                Firstly: so that you don’t think that you will solve this problem by a simple method of shifting responsibility, I want to say. that the topic of secret archives is not at all focused on shelling armor plates with loaded ammunition alone. In fact, I have found many topics throughout my life. which were not covered at all by any historical writers, neither Russian nor foreign. So if those shots happen, it will be repulsed. then I have many others in stock.
                Secondly, if I am now discussing with you as the author of the article, then you do not have to answer me at all - any other forum participant can do this. Yes, no one can answer me at all - I have found large and extremely interesting naval topics to develop that will last me until the end of my life.
                And thirdly: who bears the responsibility to prove?
                The essence of this topic is that I claim that certain military-historical materials are not in the public domain at all, and no one will be able to see them without special permission from the authorities. But you, Andrey, together with the entire crowd of your fans and sympathizers, claim that these archival documents are in the public domain and anyone can easily see them.
                But how can I prove the complete absence of an object if it cannot be seen? But you all claim that these documents are easy to see. Therefore, the burden of proving the openness of these documents lies on your side.
                1. +3
                  4 March 2024 12: 28
                  Quote: geniy
                  Firstly: so that you don’t think that you will solve this problem by a simple method of shifting responsibility

                  I do not have any problems. If you haven’t noticed yet, it’s not because of my “insights” that most of the commentators are laughing, but because of yours.
                  Quote: geniy
                  But you, Andrey, together with the entire crowd of your fans and sympathizers, claim that these archival documents are in the public domain and anyone can easily see them.

                  Firstly, a number of respected commentators from those who write to you cannot possibly be my fans, since their knowledge is at least comparable, and some far exceed mine.
                  And secondly, as always, you got everything mixed up. I never claimed what you attribute to me. I and other commentators are trying to explain to you that there may not be archival documents for one simple reason - the lack of regular testing of loaded ammunition.
                  Most likely, when pyroxylin and delayed fuses are adopted into service, such tests on a one-time basis were held. And they showed satisfactory results. And they are probably in the archives, but to find them, you have to spend a lot of time poking around, perhaps years.
                  You, as a person who has not the slightest connection to archival work, think that if you ran through the search engine of the Russian State Administration of the Navy and found nothing, then there is nothing in the archive. So the people who worked in the archives are laughing at you, because, for example, documents about these tests may end up in some file of a testing ground, or a manufacturing plant, or the artillery department of the MTK, and until you go through ALL of these files with your hands, no No matter what search engines you use, you won’t find anything on any site.
                  But you don’t understand this, and amuse everyone with your conspiracy theories.
                  As for me, the only pre-war tests of shells filled with pyroxylin with fuses that I know about were the shelling of a set of battleships of the "Andrew Pervozvanny" type in 1904. I will also describe this, but later - in an article that, according to my calculations, will be published next week.
                  1. -1
                    5 March 2024 12: 20
                    I do not have any problems. If you haven’t noticed yet, it’s not because of my “insights” that most of the commentators are laughing, but because of yours.

                    He laughs best who laughs last.
                2. +1
                  4 March 2024 13: 31
                  Quote: geniy
                  The essence of this topic is that I claim that certain military-historical materials are not in the public domain at all, and no one will be able to see them without special permission from the authorities.

                  If you are interested in what happens to a loaded projectile when it penetrates the armor and you think that these documents are “classified” with us, try to find similar documents from other countries. They are in the public domain; the French, for example, even have a description of experimental shooting with shells loaded with dynamite. Everything will immediately become clear, as they say, “physics is physics in Africa too.”
                  1. 0
                    5 March 2024 12: 37
                    If you are interested in what happens to a loaded projectile when it penetrates the armor and you think that these documents are “classified” with us, try to find similar documents from other countries. They are in the public domain; the French, for example, even have a description of experimental shooting with shells loaded with dynamite.

                    Dear Igor 27091965i! I am not so much interested in what happens to the projectile when it penetrates the armor, as in the fact that there is a complete lack of data on test firing with loaded projectiles. As you understand, I believe that such documents are completely classified in the Russian Navy. But not only in the Russian one - but in all foreign fleets too, they are classified. That is, looking for something for me on your advice is the same as acting on the orders of a fairy-tale king who ordered: Go there - I don’t know where, and find something that cannot exist at all!
                    And the fact that you cite as an example published shootings with dynamite shells, I explain to you that there are topics that are absolutely stupid and useless - in particular the topic of shooting with dynamite shells. And it’s these useless, stupid topics that are published, like I gave as an example the consumption of hay by the horses of a sailor company of the Kremlin garrison. And you show me at least one foreign document on firing LOADED shells - and at least not its text, but just a table of contents!
    6. 0
      11 March 2024 07: 24
      If Andrei was writing a dissertation or an article for science, such things could be presented to him. If he wants, he will look. But Berkalov’s retelling will be enough for now. For general understanding.
      I myself am involved in writing production documents, etc. And I will say that these documents cannot be trusted either. They are often written to cover up the issue rather than solve the problem. Understanding such things is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Therefore, there will always be different points of view on an issue. And all the authors of these points will be right in their own way.
  6. -5
    3 March 2024 08: 38
    Andrey has written his next article for you. Isn’t he trying to deceive you all with his long-winded arguments? No, he is not telling you false information, he is doing something much more subtle - he is distracting your attention from the really important things.
    That is, the main task of any armor-piercing projectile is to penetrate the armor and explode behind it. Few of you remember, but during the Sino-Japanese War, probably most of the shells were either without explosive filling at all, or filled with ordinary coal. And then one of the Chinese battleships was hit by a huge number of Japanese shells - I don’t remember now, but either 300 or 400 - I’m just too lazy to clarify, but the fact is that these shells pierced the side, but did not explode, but got stuck in coal mines and caused small fires there - fires that were easily extinguished. Thus, the main task of any armor-piercing projectile is not just to pierce the armor, but also to explode behind it; for this, each projectile contains an explosive and a fuse. Moreover, both components must function correctly: both the explosive and the fuse. That is, the artillerymen demand that the explosives do not explode spontaneously from a simple impact on the armor, but only from the initiation of a detonation by the shell fuse. But whether the fuse will work correctly is the big question? And there is a huge doubt that, for example, all Japanese shells exploded spontaneously upon impact with the armor without any participation of the fuse. On the contrary, Russian shells often did not explode due to improper action of the fuses.
    The shooting was carried out with unloaded armor-piercing shells

    So, Andrey brought you only shelling of slabs UNCURRENT shells, that is, essentially almost ordinary blanks without explosives or fuses. And he did not even indicate which of the shells that did not have explosives simply broke into pieces - which means they could not fully explode even if they penetrated the armor. That is, Andrei did not write to you the most important thing: did Russian shells even explode after penetrating the armor? Where are the results of these experiments? That is, isn’t Andrei trying to deceive all of you in such a way that he diverts your attention to less important circumstances, without checking the real explosiveness of the shells?
    1. +5
      3 March 2024 09: 53
      Andrey has written his next article for you. Isn’t he trying to deceive you all with his long-winded arguments?

      Yeah, this was discussed and commented on by the Author 6-7 years ago.
      Just read all of Andrey's works on VO.
      1. -3
        3 March 2024 20: 58
        Just read all of Andrey's works on VO.

        You know very well that the volume of Andrey’s texts is simply enormous. And for me to read all his works - a week is not enough, considering that I have to deal with other things. Therefore, your advice is equivalent to: Go there - I don’t know where. Therefore, take the trouble to at least roughly indicate the specific text.
      2. -1
        5 March 2024 12: 18
        Yeah, this was discussed and commented on by the Author 6-7 years ago.

        Well, so: will you provide a link to a specific article by Andrey from Chelyabinsk where supposedly “all this was discussed” - or not?
    2. +7
      3 March 2024 10: 18
      That is, isn’t Andrei trying to deceive all of you in such a way that he diverts your attention to less important circumstances, without checking the real explosiveness of the shells?

      Hm... Interesting reasoning... I personally respect the author precisely because he expresses HIS point of view, which he always warns about in his materials. Is this series based on one book? Maybe. But I am more than sure that the author researched other sources as far as possible and accessible. After all, the meaning of freedom is that a person always has a choice. In this case, whether to read this material or not. The author provided HIS point of view. And it’s just crazy for me to often read various kinds of accusations in the comments. You can say on your own behalf that the author is deceiving you personally, but why speak on behalf of everyone? Take Oleg Kaptsov, who often directly manipulates numbers and has more right to be called a manipulator than this author.
      This is the first. Secondly, I would read everything the author wants to say to the end, and only then judge him, and not in the middle. Moreover, the author on garlic indicates on what it is based.
      And third. If you said “A”, say “B”. Write your material using your sources. We read, compare, discuss.
      Personally, I will read to the end, and then I will judge smile
      Have respect for other people's work, if you can't, if you can't create something similar or your own...
      Personally, my opinion hi
    3. +3
      3 March 2024 11: 17
      Quote: geniy
      Few of you remember, but during the Sino-Japanese War, probably most of the shells were either without explosive filling at all, or filled with ordinary coal.

      It’s interesting, do you know that according to the Chinese staffing schedule for the main caliber guns of battleships, the magazines were supposed to have only eight high-explosive shells per gun. Taking into account the shells sent before the battle from the Tianjin Arsenal, the number increased to 14 pieces per gun. At the same time, about 10% did not explode when they hit the Japanese ships; these shells ran out very quickly, so the Chinese had to fire armor-piercing shells at the Japanese cruisers.
    4. +3
      3 March 2024 14: 08
      This is the battleship "Chin-yen" that received these several hundred hits. You didn't discover America. Melnikov wrote about this in the preface in the book “Cruiser Varyag”. Frankly, people like you who like to “pound water in a mortar” are depressing. For that matter, the people gathered here are mostly amateurs, not professionals (and where can you find them now?) Would you like to give a tip to more serious authors with access to the archives? Thank you. If not, then why all your “revelations”?
    5. +2
      3 March 2024 16: 32
      Quote: geniy
      Did Russian shells even explode after penetrating the armor? Where are the results of these experiments?

      In general, this information is indirectly reflected in the enemy’s description of damage to their battleships. If there is a lot of damage and severe fires, then they exploded; if they write about small holes and local mechanical damage with minor fires, then they did not explode.
    6. -2
      5 March 2024 00: 18
      As if everyone who is a little in the know knows that by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War the Russian fleet did not have either normal explosives for armor-piercing projectiles that did not self-explode when the projectile passed through a sufficiently thick (more than half the caliber) armor plate, nor normal delayed-action fuses for armor-piercing projectiles.

      But soon from Andrey’s article we will find out whether the Russian fleet had at least normal shells of armor-piercing shells - which, provided they were equipped with a normal phlegmatized high explosive explosive (for example, picric acid phlegmatized with dinitrobenzene) and when equipped with a reliably triggered delayed-action fuse (for example, an 11DM fuse, but with a powder moderator) could have functioned as normal armor-piercing weapons during the years of the Russo-Japanese War shells.
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 11: 13
        ABOUT!! Thank you very much Alexandra for this comment! I’m currently writing an article about what ordinary people know about Russian shells, and don’t blame me: I’ll definitely include your comment as an illustration of what insanely wild opinions most naval history buffs have
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 12: 59
          Are you writing an article? I realized almost immediately that you are primarily a writer. Ordinary people who read a lot, in particular about explosives and shells, remember that the pyroxylin used as an explosive was not “wet”, but “wet”, and that the domestic transcription of the French name for explosives is melinite - melinite. I think in your article this terminology will now be “bookish”.

          But I still want to clarify. Have you read the reference book for domestic military history buffs of the late 19th and early 20th centuries: V. I. Rdultovsky "Historical sketch of the development of tubes and fuses from the beginning of their use to the end of the World War 1914 - 1918." Or are you not familiar with such pop sources out of principle? Only archival documents, only hardcore!

          Publish your article. We honor it. Let's comment. Don’t feed us mediocre ordinary people bread, let us mock someone else: "Author, drink yada and walk away!" :)
      2. 0
        5 March 2024 12: 02
        Quote: AlexanderA
        not self-exploding when a projectile passes through a sufficiently thick (more than half the caliber) armor plate,

        To be honest, I didn’t understand much of what you want to say. Is it bad that the shells didn’t explode when passing through the armor?
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 13: 14
          The explosive in an armor-piercing projectile should explode from the explosion of the intermediate detonator in the delayed-action fuse, and NOT from the impact as the projectile passes through the armor plate.

          We did NOT find such explosives for armor-piercing shells until the end of the Russo-Japanese War. More precisely, it was found at the end of the 19th century, but things did not go further than experiments.

          From the most comprehensive report on the Ministry of War on the activities and condition of all branches of military command in 1905

          "7) in view of the desire to increase the destructive effect of armor-piercing shells, the question was raised about equipping them with some kind of powerful explosive, which would not explode when a shell hits the armor, and it was necessary to develop a type of fuse that, without being deformed when the projectile hits the armor, would produce an explosion of the explosive charge after the projectile passes through the armor or after it completely stops in the armor; The now deceased captain Maksimov managed to find a sufficiently stable explosive, and the results of firing 6 pounds of armor-piercing shells from a 190‑dm cannon, equipped with this substance, gave such favorable results that it was decided to move on to experiments with equipping armor-piercing shells for 11‑dm guns mod. 1877, for 6‑dm Kane guns and for 10‑dm guns; Experiments with fuses have not yet given the desired result."

          https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/279938-iz-vsepoddanneyshego-doklada-po-voennomu-ministerstvu-o-meropriyatiyah-i-sostoyanii-vseh-otrasley-voennogo-upravleniya-za-1905-god
          1. +1
            5 March 2024 14: 02
            Thank you for your answer, I read this book, it is available on the Internet, but the data you provided relate to coastal artillery, and this is a little different.
            Moreover, it was necessary to develop a type of fuse that, without being deformed when the projectile hits the armor, would produce an explosion of the explosive charge

            Think about what forces should act on bottom fuse so that it is deformed when the projectile hits the armor. The bottom fuse is triggered when it encounters armor.
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 14: 37
              Quote: 27091965i
              Think about what forces must act on the bottom fuse so that it is deformed when a projectile hits the armor. The bottom fuse is triggered when it encounters armor.


              Those forces that, for example, when a projectile hit bronzeptite, tore off an intermediate detonator with 45 grams of dry pyroxylin in a thin-walled brass sleeve screwed to the main steel fuse body from the bottom Brink fuse.

              “When hitting thicker slabs, the front part of the fuse could break off due to the low strength of the connection with the body. This created an unsecured action of the fuse.” (C) V. I. Rdultovsky

              Anyone who believes that Rdultovsky’s book examines only domestic fuses of the military department, and does not consider fuses of the naval department (not to mention foreign fuses of naval artillery shells) has not looked at the book carefully.
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 14: 56
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Those forces that, for example, when a projectile hit bronzeptite, tore off an intermediate detonator with 45 grams of dry pyroxylin in a thin-walled brass sleeve screwed to the main steel fuse body from the bottom Brink fuse.

                Dear Alexander, this is not a deformation.
                When hitting thicker plates, the front part of the fuse due to the low strength of connection with the body could break off. This created an unsecured fuse action." (C) V. I. Rdultovsky

                This is the assumption of V.I. Rdultovsky, as it is known that most of the shells exploded during the Russo-Japanese War. At that time, not only Russia had problems with fuses; no one was immune from manufacturing defects.
                1. 0
                  5 March 2024 16: 10
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  Dear Alexander, this is not a deformation.

                  This is the destruction of the fuse body.
                  This is the assumption of V.I. Rdultovsky, as it is known that most of the shells exploded during the Russo-Japanese War.

                  You are clearly counting without falling into the water. Most of the shells, as is known, fell into the water. When falling into the water, Russian shells for the most part did not explode.

                  The Japanese fleet had much more of the shells that exploded when they hit enemy ships than the Russian fleet.

                  If you are not satisfied with all of Rdultovsky’s explanations on the Brink fuse, why this is so, I’m afraid that you will not find a better explanation.

                  Want to see the deformation of the bottom fuse? Here is a visualization of the numerical simulation:



                  Is it quite clear?
                  1. +1
                    5 March 2024 17: 22
                    I'm not trying to refute you or prove anything, this is an exchange of opinions. Moreover, I am not trying to refute V.I. Rdultovsky. But he writes himself;

                    " When hitting thicker plates, the front part of the fuse due to the low strength of connection with the body could have broken off. "

                    He doesn’t claim that this is the main reason and this, in my opinion, is not his only assumption.
                    You are clearly counting without falling into the water. Most of the shells, as is known, fell into the water. When falling into the water, Russian shells for the most part did not explode.

                    I think you understand that the explosion upon impact with water depends on the purpose of the projectile and the sensitivity of the fuse. Japanese shells also did not all explode, and not only when they hit the water.
                    1. 0
                      5 March 2024 18: 05
                      What difference does it make whether the front part of the Brink fuse came off upon impact with a sufficiently thick armor plate if the explosive charge of wet pyroxylin with such an impact prematurely self-exploded anyway?

                      This would be important if the Brink fuse was used to detonate any phlegmatized explosive, and not wet pyroxylin. And since it was not used, there is no difference.

                      The sensitivity of the fuse should always be high, regardless of the purpose of the projectile for which this fuse is equipped.

                      The vast majority of Japanese shells exploded, including when they hit the water. According to early estimates, from a quarter to a third of the Russian shells that hit the Japanese ships did not explode (did not have time to explode).

                      Experimental firing in the summer of 1905 in the Vladivostok detachment at old boilers and other pieces of iron on the shore demonstrated that 6" shells with a Brink fuse penetrate these pieces of iron without explosion, and explode 30-40 meters behind a makeshift coastal target when they hit the shore. During The Vladivostok detachment immediately began to reload shells from pyroxylin and Brink fuses to smokeless powder and ordinary tubes of the 1896 model.

                      Let's continue the revisionist conversation about how good were the Russian steel shells of the Russo-Japanese War, equipped with a Brink fuse? The fact that they were superior to Japanese shells because they could penetrate armor and explode in cellars, boilers, vehicles of Japanese armored ships?
                      1. +1
                        5 March 2024 19: 44
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        What difference does it make whether the front part of the Brink fuse came off upon impact with a sufficiently thick armor plate if the explosive charge of wet pyroxylin with such an impact prematurely self-exploded anyway?

                        To be honest, I haven’t heard of such cases during the Russo-Japanese War, if it’s not difficult for you, could you give an example.
                        This would be important if the Brink fuse was used to detonate any phlegmatized explosive, and not wet pyroxylin. And since it was not used, there is no difference.

                        The sensitivity of the fuse should always be high, regardless of the purpose of the projectile for which this fuse is equipped.

                        That is, based only on the work of V.I. Rdultovsky, do you think that Brink’s views regarding “shock tubes” were erroneous?
                      2. 0
                        5 March 2024 21: 33
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        To be honest, I haven’t heard of such cases during the Russo-Japanese War, if it’s not difficult for you, could you give an example.


                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/70594.html

                        1.1 "Mikasa", battle of Shantung July 28/August 10, 1904

                        On the flagship battleship of the United Fleet in the battle at Shantung, the main armor belt was pierced, between the bow tower and bow casemates, just below the waterline (Fig. 1). Armor - 178 mm, Krupp armor. Distance at the moment of hitting ~ 8 m (000 cables). The projectile is most likely a 43-mm high-explosive shell, fired from a 305/305-mm gun.

                        We described the consequences of a hit a little earlier as follows:

                        A “plug” was knocked out of the armor in the form of a truncated cone, with an outer base diameter of 350 mm and an inner base diameter of 850 mm. The inner wall of the cofferdam was broken, water tanks No. 2 and No. 4 located at the site of impact, and the pumping pipe of tank No. 2 were damaged. Below the waterline, under the point of impact, 7 rivets connecting the skin sheets were damaged and a leak arose.
                        The head of the projectile was found behind the armor plate, the fragments hit the tank # 2, but the inner bulkhead of the tank remained intact, and this made it possible to avoid serious flooding.


                        That is, based only on the work of V.I. Rdultovsky, do you think that Brink’s views regarding “shock tubes” were erroneous?

                        Based on the book by V.I. Rdultovsky, I believe that it was in vain that Brink undertook to develop this fuse. Why do you think otherwise?

                        Tell us why an insensitive primer for some reason taken from a rifle cartridge had to be struck by a firing pin with a blunt-headed, rather than a sharp-headed, firing pin? Where else have you seen a blunt firing pin in fuses? Why a second striker made of aluminum? “After the war, this part was made of steel.” (C) Why is Brink’s intermediate detonator body screwed during assembly, made of thin brass and with a very small explosive charge, only 45 grams of dry pyroxylin? For comparison, in the 5DM fuse, the intermediate detonator contained 115 grams of picric acid and reliably exploded shells with wet pyroxylin. The intermediate detonator body of the 5DM fuse was integral with the fuse body. Although in the 11DM fuse there was only 55,5 g of picric acid in the intermediate detonator, the fuse body and the intermediate detonator body also formed a single whole.
                      3. +1
                        5 March 2024 22: 10
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        1.1 "Mikasa", battle of Shantung July 28/August 10, 1904

                        This honestly doesn't answer the questions I was interested in, namely;
                        " upon impact with a sufficiently thick armor plate if the explosive charge of wet pyroxylin with such an impact self-exploded prematurely"

                        Based on the book by V.I. Rdultovsky, I believe that it was in vain that Brink undertook to develop this fuse. Why do you think otherwise?

                        The fact is that V.I. Rdultovsky was not the only one who wrote such books; in other states there were also enough specialists on this issue and they did not have much a different opinion. In addition, we should not forget the time difference between the development of the Brink tube and the work of V.I. Rdultovsky. Thanks for the interesting discussion. hi
                      4. 0
                        8 March 2024 14: 02
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        This honestly doesn't answer the questions I was interested in, namely;
                        "when hitting a sufficiently thick armor plate, if the explosive charge of wet pyroxylin self-exploded prematurely upon such an impact"

                        The shell exploded while passing through the armor plate and with the explosion knocked out the conical plug from the plate. Only the head of the projectile passed behind the plate. The explosion occurred prematurely. The armor effect turned out to be weak.

                        You wanted an example of the premature explosion of a Russian shell from the Russo-Japanese War when passing through armor plates thicker than 1/2 the shell’s caliber. I brought it to you. You should at least write why you didn’t like the example, why you weren’t happy with it.

                        The fact is that V.I. Rdultovsky was not the only one who wrote such books; in other states there were also enough specialists on this issue and they did not have much a different opinion.


                        Quote a different opinion about the Brink fuse from other fuze experts, even foreign ones, from the books they wrote.
                        In addition, do not forget the time difference between the development of the Brink tube and the work of V.I. Rdultovsky

                        I mean, since the book was written in the 30s, it contains an erroneous list of the shortcomings of the Brink fuse in comparison with the same fuses 11DM and 5DM? Seriously?

                        Thanks for the interesting discussion.

                        I’m waiting for you to continue it by quoting reviews about the Brink fuse from other fuze experts, including foreign ones.
                      5. +1
                        9 March 2024 10: 14
                        Good afternoon.
                        I brought it to you. You should at least write why you didn’t like the example, why you weren’t happy with it.

                        Writing. Dear Alexander, what do you mean by the term “self-exploded”. The impact of physical forces and temperature changes on the explosives that the projectiles were loaded with when they hit the armor or the operation of the “tube”? What were large-caliber shells used in Port Arthur?
                        Quote a different opinion about the Brink fuse from other fuze experts, even foreign ones, from the books they wrote.

                        I'll generalize. The Brink tube is based on the double-capsule tube developed in France in 1891. It was intended for high-explosive shells, to destroy concrete fortifications and armor-piercing shells to destroy armor. Advantages; ease of manufacture, low price, adaptation to any type of projectile, no influence of powder charges on the tube, that is, it could be used for projectiles with any speed.
                        The tale that the tube does not work, in most cases, when it gets into water, thin barriers, or loose soil, was learned during the Russo-Japanese War to be nonsense. All this was clarified in France in 1892 during experimental shooting.
                      6. 0
                        11 March 2024 23: 39
                        Hello Igor
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        What do you mean by the term "self-exploded"

                        By self-explosion I mean the explosion of an explosive projectile due to mechanical action, in this case from the impact of the projectile body on the armor, and not from the explosion of the intermediate detonator of the projectile fuse.

                        "...because all explosives used to equip high-explosive projectiles, such as pyroxylin or pure melinite, cannot withstand projectile impacts on a slab and explode upon such an impact before the projectile has time to pierce the slab, it was decided to test some chemical combination of an explosive with inactive substances for equipping armor-piercing projectiles (as a result of which the explosive becomes more inert), and at present the commission on the use of explosives has settled on explosive “B”, which promises to give good results." "From the Most Submissive Report on the War Ministry on the activities and state of all branches of military administration for 1904"

                        Armor-piercing shells with powder equipment also exploded upon impact with armor. A number of later versions of the Palliser armor-piercing projectile of the 1870-1880s with a bursting charge of black powder in the inside were simply not equipped with a fuse. The gunpowder already self-exploded upon impact with the armor plate. But since the explosion of gunpowder is a rather slow event in comparison with the explosion of a high explosive, by the time the hull was destroyed, such a projectile had already managed to partially or completely pass behind the armor plate.

                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чувствительность_к_удару

                        The sensitivity of pyroxylin to impact cannot be reduced by any inert substance, for example paraffin. See Table 1, column 1 in the article N. A. Kholevo “On the issue of excitation of an explosion when an explosive charge is deformed” // Physics of Explosion. Sat. No. 3. - 1955. - P. 16-32.

                        https://elib.biblioatom.ru/text/fizika-vzryva_3_1955/p16/

                        What were large-caliber shells used in Port Arthur?

                        What shells and what kind of artillery, land, coastal, naval? Differently. From inert ammunition with sand and sawdust for 6" and 10" armor-piercing shells of the War Department for coastal guns at the beginning of the war, to melinite equipment for howitzer and mortar bombs of fortress artillery.

                        From solid steel armor-piercing shells of the 1898 model for 75 mm Kane guns and cast iron shells with an explosive charge of black powder for the same guns, to individual evidence that some main battery shells of battleships were reloaded with melinite (but this is not certain). If you are satisfied with the testimony of the artillery officer of the battleship "Peresvet" V.N. Cherkasova:

                        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/cherkasov_vn/01.html

                        “Our shells are filled with black powder (cast iron), smokeless (12-dm and small) and pyroxylin (10-dm, 8-dm and 6-dm). Japanese shells are filled with black powder, melinite, and it is possible that there are also cordite ones. To fire a shot, we use smokeless gunpowder, while the Japanese use cordite. We don’t use melinite—we limited ourselves to experiments.”

                        I'll generalize. The Brink tube is based on the double-capsule tube developed in France in 1891. It was intended for high-explosive shells, to destroy concrete fortifications and armor-piercing shells to destroy armor. Advantages; ease of manufacture, low price, adaptation to any type of projectile, no influence of powder charges on the tube, that is, it could be used for projectiles with any speed.

                        The disadvantages of the Brink tube are indicated by Rdultovsky and I have listed them; I see no point in repeating them. You have listed the advantages that you think exist. We noted the ease of manufacture. Ease of manufacture compared to what, compared to the 1894 tube? Noted the low price. Low price, again, in comparison with what, in comparison with the tube of the 1894 model, in comparison with the 11DM fuse? How is it adapting to any type of projectile? The Brink tube was not equipped with powder-filled shells. Neither 120 mm shells for Kane guns, nor even more so 75 mm shells for Kane guns could be equipped with a Brink tube, it was too large for them. The Ijuin fuse had two sizes, and it was equipped with all Japanese naval artillery shells, with the exception of small-caliber ones.

                        The tale that the tube does not work, in most cases, when it gets into water, thin barriers, or loose soil, was learned during the Russo-Japanese War to be nonsense. All this was clarified in France in 1892 during experimental shooting.

                        What and by whom was found out in France in 1892 and why did the officers of the Vladivostok detachment not know what was found out in 1892 even by the summer of 1905 and why did they conduct test firing? Who told fairy tales to whom, MTK investigative commission,?

                        https://www.rulit.me/books/operacii-vladivostokskih-krejserov-v-russko-yaponskuyu-vojnu-1904-1905-gg-read-381100-74.html#n_304

                        "...7) A strong blasting effect could not be expected from such projectiles; hence, they did not find particularly sensitive tubes for them, but used tubes with a moderator, “ensuring the rupture of the projectile upon passing the light side to inflict damage with fragments inside the ship.”

                        8) In 1896, it was planned to conduct comprehensive special experiments to test all the shells used in the fleet, and carry out preliminary experiments at the Okhtensky training ground. But since these latter also required large expenses, they too were abandoned on a full scale in 1897. The reasoning behind the refusal is remarkable: “From an economic point of view, the experiments are no longer of great importance, since the shells required for ships have been manufactured or ordered almost to a complete set.”

                        Instead of special experiments, it was decided to allow testing only incidentally during acceptance tests of shells, plates, etc. based on current gross orders.

                        The last pathetic attempt to organize experimental firing was made in 1900. But they were limited to only testing segmental shells, while the “high-explosive” shells were used to supply the entire Russian fleet, without extensive special tests.

                        “No further representations were made,” the naval technical committee wrote in 1907 at the request of the investigative commission.

                        But considering the existing shells not reaching those maximum requirements in terms of blasting power, which were in mind back in 1889, the Committee, nevertheless, had no reason to consider them particularly weak in destructive action, taking into account: 1) that in the battles of Sant -Yago and the Yalu River, Spanish and Chinese ships were burned or hit by ordinary gunpowder bombs, while our high-explosive shells were filled with a stronger explosive compound - pyroxylin, and 2) that during the shooting of 1901-1902. from the Black Sea battleships to the coastal battery (?-V.E.) on the Tendrovskaya Spit, the destructive effect is 6 dm. high-explosive bombs were considered by no means weak, “but more than satisfactory.” It is hardly possible to find a more striking example of criminal complacency, inertia and bureaucracy than in this whole story with the supply of shells to the Russian fleet before the Russo-Japanese War.

                        Special experiments to determine the high-explosive effect of Russian high-explosive shells were carried out not before the decision was made to introduce them into service with the Russian fleet, not in the nineties of the 1905th century, but after the shameful defeat of Russian squadrons at Port Arthur, Shantung and Fuzan, after Tsushima- in the summer of XNUMX. They were delivered not by the naval technical committee and not on the initiative of the generals and engineers of the naval ministry, but in Vladivostok on the Russian Island on the initiative of Jessen and the artillerymen of the Vladivostok detachment.

                        They were carried out handicraft, in accordance with the means available to the Vladivostok port.

                        The teams of the cruisers "Russia" and "Gromoboi" set up a small training ground on the shore of Paris Bay. Various metal objects selected from the port warehouses of scrap iron, old water-tube boilers, bed nets, iron cylinders, etc. were dragged and unloaded onto the floating crane. To determine the location of the shell explosion, canvas shields were stretched behind these objects.

                        The cruiser "Russia", anchored at a distance of 3 rooms, fired from a 152-mm 45 cal. guns.

                        The following tests were tested: 1) high-explosive explosives with explosive charges of wet pyroxylin, equipped with two-capsule Brink fuses, and 2) high-explosive explosives specially prepared with local means, equipped with smokeless powder with Baranovsky bottom fuses, i.e., with a filling and a tube used in 305 mm shells and those used in old (eg, "Rurik") 203 mm 35 cal.

                        “Test results,” wrote Jessen, “. . . . fully confirmed all the assumptions about the complete invalidity of high-explosive shells of our fleet, in comparison with the Japanese. "

                        Jessen called the report on the experiments “directly indictive and unfolding a terrifying picture of the reasons for our successive failures and defeats at sea throughout this entire war.”[305]"


                        Fairy tales are told by modern revisionists, such as the same Lisitsyn, who discovered a “double action” and adjustment of deceleration and sensitivity in the Brink tube. And you believe these revisionists.
                      7. 0
                        12 March 2024 00: 03
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The Brink tube is based on the double-capsule tube developed in France in 1891. It was intended for high-explosive shells, to destroy concrete fortifications and armor-piercing shells to destroy armor.

                        “It is remarkable that the deep development of the design of fuses and shells for field guns, which retained their value for 40 years, did not affect the fuses and shells of the French fleet.

                        Armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of the French naval artillery were filled with melinite, but to explode the latter, a block of black powder weighing from 3 to 6 g was used, pressed with a channel along the axis under a pressure of 500 to 1000 kg/cm2. The shells were equipped with bottom shock tubes with ordinary igniter caps (Fig. 40).
                        Beginning in 1904, the Schneider company offered the French navy bottom fuses with mercury fulminate capsules and a compressed picric acid detonator (Fig. 41). But before the World War, the fleet consisted of armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing shells with ordinary Schneider tubes and powder firecrackers for igniting cast melinite. There is almost no information about the effect of these shells."
                      8. 0
                        12 March 2024 00: 16
                        Nothing that in the bottom tubes of the French fleet until 1904 (before the Schneider company tube with mercury fulminate capsules and a detonator made of pressed picric acid, proposed in 1904 but not then accepted by the French fleet), there was neither a detonator capsule nor an intermediate detonator observed in Brink tube model 1896, but there was only a primer and a powder firecracker?

                        Please provide a drawing of a double-capsule French tube from 1891, on the basis of which the Brink tube was allegedly developed.
                      9. +1
                        9 March 2024 10: 24
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I’m waiting for you to continue it by quoting reviews about the Brink fuse

                        I will continue; V.I. Rdultovsky is “cunning” in his work; he knew very well that double-capsule tubes similar to Brink’s tubes were used by France until the end of the First World War. The main purpose of the Brink tube and the like is to use shells designed to destroy armor and thick concrete fortifications, rather than wooden pillboxes.
                      10. 0
                        12 March 2024 00: 47
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        I will continue; V.I. Rdultovsky is “cunning” in his work; he knew perfectly well that double-capsule tubes similar to Brink’s tubes were used by France until the end of the First World War.

                        I’m waiting for you to provide a drawing of a double-capsule French tube made in 1891 with a detonator capsule with mercury fulminate and an intermediate detonator, structurally similar to the Brink tube of the 1896 model.

                        You know that the 1907 model shells were no longer equipped with a Brink tube; it was quickly abandoned after the end of the Russo-Japanese War? But they did not abandon the 11DM fuse.

                        "In 1905-1907, a (6") projectile filled with 1,23 kg of melinite with an 11DM fuse was introduced. magazine "Equipment and Weapons" 1997 No. 03 A. Shirokorad "Domestic Coastal Artillery"

                        I’m waiting for you to quote reviews of the Brink tube from other fuze specialists, besides the “crafty” Rdultovsky, including from foreign fuze specialists.

                        The review of Brink's pipe specifically from you is of course interesting, but:

                        a) You are not a fuses specialist;
                        b) The opinion that Rdultovsky was “disingenuous” is only your personal opinion, which has not yet been supported by anything.
                      11. +1
                        6 March 2024 10: 43
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        1.1 "Mikasa", battle of Shantung July 28/August 10, 1904

                        Past. But it’s interesting to watch how you refute yourself.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Armor – 178 mm, Krupp. Distance at the moment of impact ~ 8 m (000 cables).

                        At 43 cables, with a perfect hit to the normal, a 305-mm projectile penetrated a maximum of 6,8 inches, at an angle of 25 degrees - 6,2 inches.
                        That is, the projectile should not have penetrated the armor; it should have either fallen apart from the impact or exploded in the process of breaking through the armor. The second thing happened. And this indicates:
                        1) Very high quality projectile body
                        2) High quality fuse
                      12. 0
                        8 March 2024 15: 06
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At 43 cables, with a perfect hit to the normal, a 305-mm projectile penetrated a maximum of 6,8 inches, at an angle of 25 degrees - 6,2 inches.

                        You know very well that everything depends both on the characteristics (quality) of the projectile body and on the characteristics of the armor plate, “floating” by tens of percent in one direction or another.

                        The only thing that can be stated is that the naval-manual’s assumption that it was most likely a 305 mm “high-explosive” projectile (hull metal without hardening) is erroneous. What about those armored plates that the British floated to the Japanese along with the ships, in cases where they split when hit and such fragile destruction with cracks along the plate in all directions from the point of impact, it seems that the British floated plates of not the best quality to the Japanese.
                        Past. But it’s interesting to watch how you refute yourself.

                        And yes, as you know, an explosion in the process of overcoming the slab allows you to increase armor penetration to EMNIP 15-25%. But the armor effect is scanty. Therefore, by the beginning of the XNUMXth century, the developers of armor-piercing shells and fuses for them were no longer required to just make holes in the plates, but to pass the shell behind the armor without destroying the chamber with explosives and a full-fledged explosion not just immediately behind the armor plate (in a coal pit), but deep inside ship hull. Brink's fuse simply did not provide sufficient deceleration for such an explosion. Russian armor-piercing shells of the Russo-Japanese War were not effective armor-piercing shells either in terms of sensitivity to the impact of the explosive used or in terms of deceleration of the fuse.

                        PS You, historical revisionists of the quality of Russian shells (naval-manual is also from your cohort), are very interesting people. Unfortunately, the desire to “say a new word on the issue” gives rise to such a phenomenon as unfounded historical revisionism, not even in assessments of people’s activities (for example, Lisitsyn with his whitewashing of Rozhdestvensky), but also in purely technical matters.

                        I have been watching with interest how historical revisionists for at least 25 years have been quietly trying to convince the modern public, who are far from the Tsushima tragedy, that Russian shells were almost better than Japanese ones, because they penetrated armor. That wet pyroxylin was the best explosive for armor-piercing shells. That the Brink fuse had no flaws, worked as intended, and was an effective fuse for armor-piercing shells.

                        Well, the fact is that not a single Russian armor-piercing shell ever reached the boiler room, engine room, or artillery magazine of any Japanese armored ship. That when Russian shells hit the gun casemates of Japanese ships, they caused heavy damage to Japanese guns unless it was a direct hit on the gun, and that when a Russian 305 mm shell exploded inside the armored cap of the aft 305 mm barbette installation of the battleship Fuji, only 8 people died (and even then most likely in the fire of a fire of powder charges)... so much the worse for the facts.

                        What is the reason for this multifaceted phenomenon? Apparently also with the nostalgia of part of society crystal bakers according to Nicholas II's Russia, "which we lost." Demand creates supply.

                        How do you like my analysis? :)
                      13. +1
                        11 March 2024 08: 01
                        Well, for example, the firing pins of all small arms are flat. They have just the same capsules. But on mines or grenades they are sharp. There are different capsules. It is clear that if the primer is from the rifle, then the firing pin should be from there. These capsules must not penetrate through.
                      14. 0
                        12 March 2024 01: 09
                        "The striker has a firing pin and a ledge for the pin." From the manual for the AK-74.

                        Will you find absolutely flat strikers in small arms strikers and strikers in fuze strikers, as was observed in the Brink fuze?
                      15. +2
                        12 March 2024 04: 37
                        Did you read my comment? or only half?
                        It all depends on the design of the capsule. If the primer is from a shooter, then the firing pin should be flat. The primer breaks between the firing pin and the anvil in the case. If the firing pin of a machine gun, etc. is sharp, the firing pin will pierce the primer right through and the gases from the cartridge case will flow back. A capsule breakdown is a defective weapon. Have you seen at least one spent cartridge case? There you can clearly see that the firing pin is flat and has a square section.
                        So don't be fooled by your pictures. I've ruined a lot of these grenade and mine fuses. To find out what's inside them))))). Or for the necessary glands. The striker there is sharp. And surprisingly, the detonator cap there is, well, completely different.
                        The primer in the cartridge ignites the gunpowder. The detonator capsule must initiate the detonation of the explosive. And this detonation is initiated in stages. From the primer itself to the initiating explosive. With or without the required delay.
                      16. 0
                        13 March 2024 21: 54
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        Did you read my comment? or only half?

                        I carefully read your comments and came to the conclusion that you are not only not familiar with books on fuses by foreign authors, you have not even read Rdultovsky’s book, which is accessible to any Internet user.

                        For example, you don’t know that not only the Brink fuse had a two-capsule, but also the 5DM and 11DM fuses.


                        "Fuse 11 DM (Fig. 62) ... It was designed as follows ...

                        Detonator 1 was placed in ignition glass 2 in a tinned brass sleeve, covered with the same tinned brass thimble. The bottom shock tube was assembled in housing 3. Rings 4 and 5 were placed under the flanges of the ignition cup and shock tube. The shock mechanism differed from the same mechanism of the 5DM fuse in the absence of a spiral extensor spring and a different shape of the fuse legs. Pin 6 serves the same purpose as pin 8 in the 5DM fuse (see Fig. 61); it is removed upon the arrival of the fuses in the fortress. Only a lead circle 7 is placed under the striker, curved in such a way that it fits into the cavity of the striker and does not separate from it when the striking mechanism moves forward. A lead ring 8 is put on the firing pin flange to soften the blow of the extensor when fired. Placed in sleeve 2 igniter primer 10 of the same type as in the 5DM fuse; it is covered on top with a lead ring. A charge of black powder is pressed into sleeve 11; A tin circle is placed in the recess at the bottom of this sleeve. The firing pin 12 and circle 13 have the same purpose as in the 5DM fuse. Bushing 14 presses the capsule flange 15; A tin ring was placed between it and the capsule flange... The action of the fuse is clear from the drawing."


                        And so, two capsules, an igniter capsule and a detonator capsule were also used in the 5DM and 11DM fuses. But the developer of these fuses, Pavel Oskarovich von Gelfreich, did NOT come up with such a strange set of ideas as using a primer-igniter from a rifle cartridge and a firing pin with a flat sting to strike this primer, as well as an aluminum firing pin to strike the detonator cap, which is why something came to the mind of Anton Frantsevich Brink, an experienced specialist in the design of artillery guns, but alas, not in the design of fuses for the shells of these guns.

                        Rdultovsky does not remember in his book that the developer of the two-capsule fuse of the Naval Department of the 1896 model, which had a number of strange design flaws, was Brink. Do you know why? I suppose because Rdultovsky was ashamed of Brink. There is such a thing - Spanish shame. If you're not familiar, Google it.

                        And I'm ashamed of you.

                        You made a bunch of statements that should demonstrate that you understand the topic. Alas, it is clear to the naked eye that you do not understand the topic. Not only are you not familiar with the books of foreign authors who, in your words, have “not a much different opinion” about the Brink fuse (moreover, you made up the books of these authors and their opinions), you haven’t even really read Rdultovsky’s book (probably you haven’t even read this book at all) read).

                        So don't be fooled by your pictures.

                        These are not my "pictures". These are diagrams and drawings from Rdultovsky’s book. "The action of the fuse is clear from the drawing." IN AND. Rdultovsky

                        The discussion did not take place. Due to the lack of knowledge on one side, for which diagrams and drawings are “pictures”.

                        For this I bow. Due to the counterproductive nature of correspondence. My efforts will not increase the knowledge in your head. You will still assume that the Brink fuse was in no way inferior to von Gelfreich’s fuses and that Rdultovsky “cunned” (i.e. lied) in his book about the Brink fuse.

                        Alas, Rdultovsky wrote everything honestly, as it was. You lied. They lied about the books of foreign experts on fuses from whom you allegedly read “not a much different opinion” about the Brink fuse.
                      17. 0
                        13 March 2024 22: 31
                        Sorry Maxim. I confused you with Igor, who spoke here as a spokesman for the opinions of foreign experts with their “not much different opinion” about the Brink fuse. Naturally, there are no books by foreign experts on fuses with opinions about the Brink fuse in nature.

                        In any case, read Rdutovsky, at least in those places where he described the Brink fuse and its shortcomings, as well as von Gelfreich’s 5DM and 11DM fuses, which are (well, almost) devoid of these shortcomings, to understand what was wrong with the Brink fuse.

                        It wasn’t even a matter of the weakness of the design school or the technological backwardness of Russia at that time. The fact was that the admirals wanted to use a fuse of their own design, developed by the Naval Department, Colonel of the Naval Artillery Corps. And the colonel was a good designer of guns, but in the first and only fuse of his design he made a number of design errors. If the admirals had found not so much money to test the effectiveness of Naval Department shells on targets, these shortcomings would have surfaced and been eliminated. But no money was found in the pre-war decade, and the Russian fleet fought the Russo-Japanese War with shells and fuses, the effectiveness of which had not been properly tested. When they checked it in 1905, they were horrified.

                        Things were worse in other fleets then. Just look at the fuses from the Spanish-American War of 1898, with threads in the wrong direction that were unscrewed in flight after being fired from a cannon. But the problem of the Russian fleet turned out to be that they had to fight with the Japanese perfectionists, and everything was fine for them with high-explosive shells, explosives and fuses. Moreover, the Japanese were lucky during the war. The same explosion in the aft cellar of the battleship Mikasa occurred on September 12, 1905, when the war had already been won by the Japanese. And yes, shells from both land and naval artillery, although important, were far from the only reason why the war was lost by the Russian Empire both at sea and on land.
                      18. 0
                        14 March 2024 15: 09
                        Don't worry. I'm not out of malice. And to increase the degree of discussion))))
                      19. 0
                        12 March 2024 04: 49
                        However, thanks for the pictures! There is no such thing as too much information. I didn’t collect all this on purpose myself.
                    2. +2
                      5 March 2024 18: 13
                      Correction, wrong quote:
                2. +2
                  11 March 2024 08: 08
                  All countries of the world, both WWI and WWII, are full of cases where AP shells did not explode. It's just their property. Yamato could not sink lousy convoy aircraft carriers by making holes in them. The shells did not explode. Müllenheim-Rechberg wrote about the Bismarck that the British shells exploded BEHIND the ship in the air, piercing right through the superstructure. The submerged German shell was found in the Prince of Wales only during docking. I think that there should be no complaints about English and, especially, German quality?))))))) Russia is not so bast.
          2. 0
            5 March 2024 14: 11
            Ordinary people who read a lot, in particular about explosives and shells, remember that the pyroxylin used as an explosive was not “wet”, but “wet”, and that the domestic transcription of the French name for explosives is melinite - melinite. I think in your article this terminology will now be “bookish”.

            Dear Alexandra, personally, I somehow pay more attention to the factual side of the matter, and not to names and even surnames: that is, is it so important what to call: pyroxylin, melinite, shimosa and other names. But what is the thickness of the armor penetrated, for example, by a Japanese projectile filled with shimosa melinite, and what is the true thickness of the armor not with a hollow projectile with inert ammunition, but filled with pyroxylin?
            As everyone knows in Tsushima, Japanese shells were never able to penetrate Russian armor even 75 mm thick. And one Russian pyroxylin shell penetrated 152 mm of Japanese armor and exploded behind it. But not once were Russian shells able to penetrate the armor thickness of about 30 mm required for 200 cables. And where then are Andrei’s calculations from Chelyabinsk that Russian shells can easily penetrate about 300 mm of armor in one piece?
            But I assume that this single shell did not actually penetrate the Japanese armor, but simply knocked out the so-called “plug” from it, and bounced back. And where then are Andrei’s calculations?
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 15: 46
              Quote: geniy
              Dear Alexandra, personally, I somehow pay more attention to the factual side of the matter, and not to names and even surnames: that is, is it so important what to call: pyroxylin, melinite, shimosa and other names. But what is the thickness of the armor penetrated, for example, by a Japanese projectile filled with shimosa melinite, and what is the true thickness of the armor not with a hollow projectile with inert ammunition, but filled with pyroxylin?

              Any subject area begins with a dictionary. If someone does not even know the vocabulary of a subject area, he does not know the subject itself.
              The Japanese projectile, even armor-piercing in its body design, but loaded with picric acid (“shimosa”) and equipped with an Ijuin fuse that had no slowdown, did not penetrate anti-shell armor. It has exploded before. But during the explosion, it destroyed the goujons (bolts) with which the armor plate was attached, often bent out not very thick plates, and with its large fragments pierced anti-fragmentation armor up to 1,25". There were exceptions, the few British armor-piercing shells with black powder that were not reloaded by the Japanese. Not much happened throughout the war.

              As experiments and damage assessments of Japanese ships have shown, wet pyroxylin explodes when a projectile collides with armor more than half the caliber of the projectile.

              Here is a description of the American experimental firing conducted in April 1901:

              https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/7687.html

              A 57 mm steel projectile without a fuse with pyroxylin equipment inflated only slightly when fired at plates of hardened nickel steel with a thickness of 1" (25,4 mm) and 1,5" (38,1 mm), but the pyroxylin in such a projectile self-exploded with a plate thickness of 2 " (50,8 mm).

              I would like to note that this was not cemented Harvey or Krupp armor, but simply hardened homogeneous nickel steel (the kind then used for armored decks and anti-fragmentation bulkheads).
              And where then are Andrei’s calculations from Chelyabinsk that Russian shells can easily penetrate about 300 mm of armor in one piece?

              I don’t know what goal Andrey from Chelyabinsk is pursuing in his story. Maybe tell me that the shells of Russian armor-piercing shells were good?

              The fact that wet pyroxylin was an unsuitable explosive for armor-piercing projectiles, and the Brink fuse, on the one hand, did not provide the deceleration necessary for the fuse of an armor-piercing projectile, on the other hand, it gave failures both when the projectile met an unarmored side, and with a sufficiently thick (more than half the caliber of the projectile) cemented armored plate (well, here the wet pyroxylin itself exploded on impact with a thick armored plate, albeit without complete detonation) is well known.

              The Russian fleet and coastal artillery during the Russo-Japanese era did not have effective armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing shells. There were relatively normal steel casings for such shells (and even the semi-armor-piercing ones, listed as “high-explosive” shells, were not hardened), but with poor (weak, self-exploding upon impact with a sufficiently thick armor plate) explosives for them, and bad, in particular not having the necessary deceleration, fuses for them.

              The Japanese fleet also did not have effective armor-piercing shells (with high explosives resistant to impact on armor, with delayed-action fuses). But there were effective high-explosive shells with relatively large explosive charges of powerful high explosives, which the Russian fleet did not have at all.

              To argue otherwise is pure historical revisionism. At the same time, historical revisionism is a fashionable thing.

              Why not, when talking about Tsushima, not tell those who are interested that the issue is NOT the shells (it was, of course, far from just the shells), and that the Russian shells were good, almost better than the Japanese? I know at least several authors who are, to one degree or another, passionate about this fashionable activity.
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 23: 06
                Alexandra Here is a description of the American experimental firing conducted in April 1901:
                https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/7687.html
                A 57 mm steel projectile without a fuse with pyroxylin equipment inflated only slightly when fired at plates of hardened nickel steel with a thickness of 1" (25,4 mm) and 1,5" (38,1 mm), but the pyroxylin in such a projectile self-exploded with a plate thickness of 2 " (50,8 mm).

                Sorry for writing in undiplomatic phrases. But I don’t have time to figure out what it is: Alexander’s lies or misconceptions, the main thing is that this is misinformation. All readers who believe him as if wet pyroxylin could spontaneously explode when hitting the armor, so I will explain to those readers who are completely out of the subject.
                So - the explosiveness of any type of explosive depends on various factors: temperature, open fire and various chemicals, the weight of a piece of explosive and especially on substances called phlegmatizers. For pyroxylin, the most common water is a phlegmatizer. So - if you pour a lot of water into pyroxylin - at least 50%, then pyroxylin WILL NOT EXPLODE AT ALL under any circumstances!! And therefore Alexander A is either lying or completely incompetent on the topic, because pyroxylin that is too wet cannot explode! Even if you hit it with a sledgehammer.
                But the essence of the problem is that if you reduce the amount of moisture in the pyroxylin, it will explode not only from hitting an armor plate - but even from gentle stroking with your hand. And if the pyroxylin is absolutely dry, then you can’t even cut it with a knife: it will immediately catch fire from friction. If the moisture content of pyroxylin is 5-6%, then in small quantities of tens of grams it can be used as detonators or for charging small explosive shells such as the above-mentioned 57 mm. This is the deception or delusion of Alexander A - that he mistook a small shell with semi-dry pyroxylin for wet and did not tell the readers the percentage of humidity in this 57 mm
                And if the humidity level of pyroxylin is 20%, then it can be transported. and if the humidity percentage is 22-23%, then they can be used to fill field gun shells. And if the humidity percentage is 30%, then the Russians equipped naval armor-piercing shells with such pyroxylin, and they did not self-explode, despite the deception of Alexander A. Sorry for the undiplomatic statements - we must speak the truth.
                1. 0
                  8 March 2024 15: 26
                  Young man, first of all, you will remember that the pyroxylin was “wet” and not “wet”, stop flaunting your ignorance, and then figure out exactly how the molded blocks of pressed pyroxylin were saturated with water before they were used to assemble explosive charges for shells, so that Don’t write nonsense about “if you pour a lot of water into pyroxylin - at least 50%, then the pyroxylin WILL NOT EXPLODE AT ALL.” 50% using that method of saturating pyrosiline blocks with water was unattainable.

                  Instructions from that time are available online, in particular, they were published in one of the threads on tsushima.su.

                  And I forgot, you’re a fan of historical documents, aren’t you?

                  Excerpt from "The most respectful report on the War Ministry on the activities and state of all branches of military administration for 1905" As far as I remember, I already quoted it to you. And now I will quote an excerpt "From the Most Submissive Report on the War Ministry on the activities and state of all branches of military administration for 1904":

                  https://istmat.org/node/25120

                  “In order to increase the destructive effect of armor-piercing shells, the question of equipping such shells with some kind of strong explosive was raised. But since all explosives used to equip high-explosive projectiles, such as pyroxylin or pure melinite, cannot withstand projectile impacts on a slab and explode upon such an impact before the projectile has time to pierce the slab, it was decided to test some chemical combination of an explosive with inactive substances for equipping armor-piercing projectiles (as a result of which the explosive becomes more inert), and at present the commission on the use of explosives has settled on explosive “B”, which promises to give good results."

                  Next on your own, young man, on your own.
                  1. -1
                    13 March 2024 17: 25
                    Well, first of all - in order to address me - “young man”, you would first have to live to my age: MANY MANY dozens of years, and all my life, from childhood, from the age of six, I read books on the Russian-Japanese War.
                    Secondly: in order to assert an obvious lie that Japanese shells were better than Russian ones in that they supposedly did not explode when they hit an armor plate, you must cite the facts of test shelling of armor plates with Japanese shells at Japanese training grounds, taken from Japanese archives. Personally, I have no doubt that you do not provide any evidence of this, and therefore your words about this are pure nonsense.
                    You also do not provide evidence of self-explosions of Russian shells at firing ranges during shelling of armored plates taken from the archives, so in this you write a complete deception.
                    And by the way, you confirm in your own words that Japanese shells, in principle, could not penetrate armor.
                    resistant to impact on armor by high explosives, with delayed-action fuses) of armor-piercing shells.
                    The Japanese fleet also did not have effective armor-piercing shells (with high explosives resistant to impact on armor, with delayed-action fuses).
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2024 23: 07
                      Quote: geniy
                      Well, first of all - in order to address me - “young man”, you would first have to live to my age: MANY MANY dozens of years, and all my life, from childhood, from the age of six, I read books on the Russian-Japanese War.

                      Why is it that in childhood you did not have a persistent imprinting of opinions about the weak destructive effect of Russian shells and about the design and production shortcomings of the Brink fuse from Soviet authors?

                      You are now clearly “propagandaized” by post-Soviet revisionists who are talking all sorts of nonsense about Tsushima shells and fuses, like the same Lisitsyn, who in his video speech called the Brink fuse a “double-action fuse.” Tell us, how long ago and under whose influence did your opinion about Tsushima shells and fuses change?

                      Secondly: to assert an obvious lie that Japanese shells were better than Russian ones in that they supposedly did not self-explode when they hit an armor plate

                      Quote my "obvious lies". Have you confused me with anyone? Japanese shells with shimosa, of course, exploded upon impact with the armor. They exploded in such a way that they disabled the towers and tore off the armor plates from the mounts without penetrating these armor plates.

                      Japanese shells were much better in that the Japanese already had modern high-explosive shells with a high filling ratio of highly explosive explosives, and trouble-free Ijuin fuses for them. The Russian fleet did not have modern high-explosive shells at all. What about armor-piercing shells? "By the time of this war, the difficult task of developing good armor-piercing projectiles was far from being solved everywhere. Not only were the research in the field of explosives capable of withstanding a blow to the armor without an explosion, but even the shells themselves often did not meet the conditions for firing at armor, although were quite expensive. " Rdultovsky

                      No one had good armor-piercing shells then. Neither the Russian fleet, nor the Japanese, nor the British, nor the French (the American fleet already had such shells, but Rdultovsky did not know about it).

                      You also do not provide evidence of self-explosions of Russian shells at firing ranges during shelling of armored plates taken from the archives, so in this you write a complete deception.

                      I gave you a quote “From the Most Submissive Report on the War Ministry on the activities and state of all branches of military administration for 1904” on this topic. If you don't understand what is written in this quote, that's not my problem.

                      Give me a quote with my alleged lies, or apologize. However, what am I talking about, there will be neither a quote nor an apology on your part. I'm willing to bet.

                      "After the death of Mahatma Gandhi, there is no one to talk to."
                  2. -1
                    13 March 2024 17: 31
                    And the fact that you quote: this is no proof
                    that Russian shells self-exploded, it’s just that by 1905 and even earlier, trinitrotoluene had already been invented, aka TNT aka tol, and Russian officials, having heard about this new wonderful substance, wanted to replace it with pyroxylin. But the officials did not understand the essence of the matter, and when they heard that Japanese shells were self-exploding, they simply lumped both Japanese and Russian shells into one pile.
                    And now I will quote an excerpt “From the Most Submissive Report on the War Ministry on the activities and state of all branches of military administration for 1904”:
                    "In order to increase the destructive effect of armor-piercing shells, the question was raised about equipping such shells with any strong explosive. But since all explosives used to equip high-explosive shells, such as pyroxylin or melinite in their pure form, do not withstand the impact of a shell into a slab and explode with such an impact before the projectile has time to penetrate the slab, it was decided to test some chemical compound of an explosive with inactive substances for equipping armor-piercing projectiles (as a result of which the explosive becomes more inert), and at present the Commission on the Use of Explosives settled on explosive B, which promises good results. "
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2024 23: 27
                      Quote: geniy
                      And the fact that you quote: this is no proof
                      that Russian shells self-exploded, it’s just that by 1905 and even earlier, trinitrotoluene had already been invented, aka TNT aka tol, and Russian officials, having heard about this new wonderful substance, wanted to replace it with pyroxylin.

                      You should study the period 1905-1910 more carefully, to find out more precisely when shells with TNT went into production in the Russian Empire (not for all sea and coastal calibers this happened at the same time), in particular, find out what “Russian officials” managed to do after 1905 change smokeless powder to melinite in the same 6" steel shells of the War Department for Kane guns (and accordingly change the fuse from the 1894 model tube to the 11DM fuse).

                      And you should study the materiel more carefully to realize that even TNT was not suitable for armor-piercing shells if it was pure TNT.

                      “The adoption of TNT also made it possible to solve the problem of equipping armor-piercing projectiles. It turned out that TNT, which in its pure form does not easily withstand the impacts of projectiles on armor, when phlegmatized with naphthalene and dinitrobenzene, has sufficient resistance when a projectile penetrates armor about one caliber thick.” Rdultovsky

                      I hope you can find the required percentage of naphthalene and dinitrobenzene in a mixed TNT-based explosive on your own.
                    2. 0
                      13 March 2024 23: 45
                      Correction, it was not the smokeless gunpowder in the 6" steel projectile that the Military Department managed to change to melinite in 1905, namely pyroxylin (in production since 1904).

                      https://kk-combat.ucoz.ru/ino_n/HTM/suppl1.htm

                      "The column “Steel of the Military Department” shows shells with similar ballistic characteristics:

                      - equipped with pyroxylin (weight with case 1,13 kg) and fuses 11DM, 9GT, 11DT (produced in 1904);
                      - 3 klb long, filled with TNT (weight 2,71 kg) and a 9DT fuse (produced in 1911);
                      - armor-piercing, 2,76 klb long - not loaded with explosives;
                      - armor-piercing, equipped with smokeless powder (weight 0,435 kg) and a bottom tube arr. 1896 (since 1904);
                      - armor-piercing, equipped with melinite (weight 1,23 kg) and 11DM fuse (in 1905-1907)"
              2. 0
                5 March 2024 23: 24
                The Japanese projectile, even armor-piercing in its body design, but loaded with picric acid (“shimosa”) and equipped with an Ijuin fuse that had no slowdown, did not penetrate anti-shell armor. It has exploded before. But during the explosion, it destroyed the goujons (bolts) with which the armor plate was attached, often bent out not very thick plates, and with its large fragments pierced anti-fragmentation armor up to 1,25".

                There is no need to tell you tales about weakened goujons and the bending of the slab. We are talking about a very specific possibility of breaking through armor plates. In the book, Rurik was the first, on page 88 the graph quite specifically shows that at close range twelve-inch Russian and Japanese shells are supposedly capable of penetrating slabs with a thickness of about 356 mm, and from a distance of 30 cables - slabs up to 200 mm. Can you refute this?
                And it’s a lie that most Japanese shells exploded instantly - in fact, almost all of them - the vast majority exploded with a delay at the moment of the second impact.
                1. +1
                  11 March 2024 08: 10
                  It should also be noted that this is all normal. And by definition there could not be a right angle in a naval battle.
  7. +3
    3 March 2024 10: 05
    It should be noted that when loading the charge for smelting, no one measured the alloying additives on pharmacy scales))) you need to understand that they threw in chromium, nickel, manganese, molybdenum with a shovel. So it turned out that the physical properties of the slab were slightly different from the standard (Krupp) ones.
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 13: 21
      Quote: TermNachTER
      It should be noted that when loading the charge for smelting, no one measured the alloying additives on pharmacy scales))) you need to understand that they threw in chromium, nickel, manganese, molybdenum with a shovel. So it turned out that the physical properties of the slab were slightly different from the standard (Krupp) ones.

      Here you are a little mistaken. I don’t know how it is in the “capitals,” but at the beginning of the century before last in the Urals, steelworkers used a special measuring bucket (a conical container with a “beak” groove). Moreover, they differed in color and size for different additives and were made according to special patterns for each blast furnace separately. It was from them that the additives were poured into the shovels. The shovels were also of a different shape. Alas, I don’t know what they looked like, I only know the name “scoop” from my father.
    2. +3
      3 March 2024 14: 26
      To confirm your words, I will cite the variation in the chemical composition in a batch of 24 slabs from the Obukhov plant, hardened using the Harvey method in 1900 (source in the form of a table)
      C from 0,20 to 0,26
      Mn from 0,18 to 0,65
      Si from 0,09 to 0,15 (data not recorded for all slabs)
      Ni from 2,09 to 2,7 (data recorded for 11 slabs only)
      Apparently it is difficult to obtain an accurate chemical composition in an open-hearth furnace.

      Cementation at a depth of 1 inch from 0,22 to 0,53
      These are already questions for cementation technology.
      1. 0
        3 March 2024 22: 54
        Apparently it is difficult to obtain an accurate chemical composition in an open-hearth furnace.

        No, it's not difficult. A question of quality materials and technological discipline.
    3. 0
      3 March 2024 16: 40
      Quote: TermNachTER
      no one measured alloying additives on pharmacy scales

      To facilitate dosing, a mixture of the additive and filler could be prepared. And first, the additive was measured accurately using laboratory equipment, then a precisely calibrated mixture of the additive and the filler was prepared, and already at the stove it was possible to dose this mixture “with a bucket and a shovel.” This can be done because precision measuring equipment cannot be used in hot shops - it is not adapted to them.
      1. 0
        3 March 2024 17: 49
        If the furnace load is 20 - 30 tons, then I am tormented by vague doubts that the accuracy will be “down to the gram”.
        1. +1
          3 March 2024 17: 51
          Z.Y. Everyone has had problems with the quality of armor plates. When Bayan was built in France, it turned out that the quality of the armor plates was simply disgusting.
    4. 0
      11 March 2024 08: 13
      Hardly. But the question about the accuracy of the scales is fair. As is the quality of raw materials.
      In general, mechanical scales are an extremely capricious thing, even now. What happened then - only Allah knows. One question - weights... and there can be so many answers that you will gasp.
  8. -7
    3 March 2024 10: 11
    The shooting was carried out with unloaded armor-piercing shells
    As everyone knows, Russian shells from the Tsushima era were filled with wet pyroxylin, and not with melenite as in other countries and in particular in Japan. Moreover, melenite was well known to Russian officers and engineers, but they almost immediately abandoned it, allegedly because two guns exploded, and these explosions killed several officers. But Japan and all the other navies of the world widely used melenite, and their guns probably exploded even before the war, and during the war there were several dozen explosions of Japanese guns. And during the First World War, the French had several thousand field guns explode. That is, many countries continued to use melenite until better times and the widespread use of trinitrotoluene. In contrast, the Russians immediately switched to wet pyroxylin before Tsushima. But in order to pierce armor plates, pyroxylin of a certain degree of humidity was required! And to determine this value, it probably took tens or rather hundreds of shots fired with explosive shells - that is, numerous experimental shootings. And all this huge and expensive work should be recorded in documents and these documents should be in the archive. And so I ask you: has anyone seen these documents? That is, I assume that they are classified. That is, you have never seen the most important thing. And Andrei from Chelyabinsk is slipping you a little deception - they say this is how they pierced armor plates with UNLOADED shells. Where is the piercing of slabs with LOADED shells? That is, he accidentally came across Berkalov’s unclassified book, and he is glad to offer it to your attention for lack of the best, most important and interesting. Why did the Russians choose wet pyroxylin as an explosive - where is the explanation for this?
    1. BAI
      +3
      3 March 2024 10: 35
      That is, I assume that they are classified. That is, you have never seen the most important thing

      And I assume that the secrecy stamp on these documents (if they existed) was removed a long time ago. All deadlines have expired
      1. -2
        3 March 2024 21: 04
        And I assume that the secrecy stamp on these documents (if they existed) was removed a long time ago...

        and I assume that the classification of secrecy has not been lifted. And whose guess is more correct? Can you prove that you are right? find at least one document in the archive about the shelling of slabs with LOADED shells? You just need to look into the digitized archive address: https://rgavmf.ru/
        1. BAI
          +3
          3 March 2024 21: 27
          And whose guess is more correct? And you can prove you're right

          Can. There is no classification of secrecy on technical documents for more than 80 years.
          TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS MUST BE DECLASSIFIED FORTY YEARS AGO
          1. -3
            3 March 2024 21: 34
            TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DECLASSIFIED FORTY YEARS AGO

            They should, but they don't have to! Haven't you ever heard of massive violations of requirements?
            Once again I must repeat: do not write to me who owes what, but simply find and show me any document from my short list (the documents themselves do not interest me at all).
            1. BAI
              +2
              3 March 2024 21: 39
              Then the simplest option is that THESE DOCUMENTS DO NOT EXIST. Occam's razor though. To avoid getting into useless discussions. The author is more on topic than you.
              1. 0
                3 March 2024 22: 05
                Then the simplest option is that THESE DOCUMENTS DO NOT EXIST.

                ABOUT! thank you very much for your answer! Don’t think that I agree with this even a little, because your answer is deeply incorrect and erroneous, but at least it’s something.
                So you think that a huge pile of the most important military-technical documents simply does not exist now? And then try to explain to me: why don’t these documents exist? That is, were these documents available in 1894 or not? Were these documents archived or not? Or maybe, decades later, numerous folders with these documents were simply burned or thrown into the trash? I'm just kidding if anyone hasn't guessed.
                The fact is that several years ago I was rummaging through a digitized naval archive and personally saw with my own eyes lists of such idiotic documents like “consumption of hay by the horses of the Moscow Kremlin sailor company.” Please explain to me why documents on the consumption of hay are still kept in the naval archives, but in your opinion, documents on the shelling of armored plates with loaded shells were thrown away?
          2. 0
            11 March 2024 08: 15
            Well...... That is, if the archives are in complete order. Which I personally deeply doubt. Didn't get around to it and will lie there. Or it just lies, but in such a corner that no one has passed by there for 50 years.
    2. +3
      3 March 2024 11: 42
      Quote: geniy
      But in order to pierce armor plates, pyroxylin of a certain degree of humidity was required!
      The humidity of pyroxylin affects the force of its explosion, but not the armor penetration of the projectile.
      1. 0
        3 March 2024 13: 25
        Quote: bk0010
        Quote: geniy
        But in order to pierce armor plates, pyroxylin of a certain degree of humidity was required!
        The humidity of pyroxylin affects the force of its explosion, but not the armor penetration of the projectile.

        If you are meticulous - on the burning rate.
    3. +4
      3 March 2024 14: 31
      Quote: geniy
      Why did the Russians choose wet pyroxylin as an explosive - where is the explanation for this?

      Maybe if Andrey doesn’t want//can’t do it, you will do it?
      Write an article, tell a story...
      1. -5
        3 March 2024 21: 15
        Maybe if Andrey doesn’t want//can’t do it, you will do it? Write an article, tell a story...

        Yes, I’m going to write such an article and expose some of the misconceptions of Andrei and his minions, but I don’t have enough time
        But the story of deceptions and mistakes is incredibly interesting, especially about the brass case, about the pyroxylin gunpowder poured into the shells. And everything seemed to be correct: there was a brass case, and pyroxylin gunpowder, but in reality everything was quite the opposite - that’s what makes Andrei’s reluctance to read the archives. But there’s still nothing there!!! And numerous idiots more than a hundred years ago heard the ringing, but did not know where it came from. And now all the “history experts” are retelling false tales.
        1. +5
          4 March 2024 14: 06
          expose some of the delusions of Andrei and his minions

          Sounds cool good
          Masonic lodge "Chelyabinsk" and a certain A.K. at the head)
          Where to sign up?
          Quote: geniy
          And everything seemed to be correct: there was a brass case and pyroxylin gunpowder, but in reality everything was quite the opposite

          That is, the brass was packaged in a pyroxylin case? wink
          But there’s still nothing there!!!

          That's right, no shells, no brass, no pyroxylin...

          And most importantly, why does Andrey from Chelyabinsk need all this? To set yourself such a goal is to mislead everyone? Out of pure love for delusion?
          This mystery is great.
          1. +4
            4 March 2024 14: 55
            Quote: Trapper7
            That is, the brass was packaged in a pyroxylin case?

            Exactly! And the shell body was already put into the case laughing
            1. +4
              4 March 2024 15: 34
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And the shell body was already put into the case

              Pre-wrapped in brass, of course!
          2. -2
            5 March 2024 12: 08
            Sounds cool good
            Masonic lodge "Chelyabinsk" and a certain A.K. at the head)
            Where to sign up?

            You are very late in enrolling in the secret Masonic lodge. It was not founded by Andrey from Chelyabinsk - he was simply one of its many followers. And the beginning of the formation of a lodge to classify data on naval technical issues began approximately one hundred and fifty years ago.
          3. 0
            5 March 2024 12: 13
            And most importantly, why does Andrey from Chelyabinsk need all this? To set yourself such a goal is to mislead everyone? Out of pure love for delusion?
            This mystery is great.
            Yes, he doesn’t need it for any reason. Andrey from Chelyabinsk is an absolutely honest person and an excellent writer-historian. But the problem is that he bases his writings on mountains of deeply false information. And he doesn’t have time to look into the archives. But anyway, it is impossible to find the truth in the archives - everything valuable there is deeply classified. And that’s why Andrey bases all his work on his assumptions, which are mostly wrong.
    4. +1
      5 March 2024 00: 44
      Pyroxylin is wet. Mel[ibib[/b]nit is written with an “and”.

      Work on equipping and test firing of armor-piercing shells with pyroxylin equipment was carried out at the end of the 19th century by M.I. Barkhotkin, after him K.I. Maksimov.

      In the process, it turned out that wet pyroxylin is not suitable for armor-piercing projectiles; it self-explodes when the projectile passes through a sufficiently thick armor plate "modern qualities". That's why:

      “In the Main Artillery Directorate and in the Naval Department in 1900, the development of equipping armor-piercing projectiles with substances that could withstand the passage of a projectile through modern armor without explosion began. One of these substances turned out to be an alloy of picric acid with naphthalene, and the other was an alloy picric acid with dinitrobenzene." (C) V. I. Rdultovsky

      At the same time: “For the explosion of an armor-piercing projectile after passing through the armor, A. A. Dzerzhkovich (GAU) began developing a tube with an automatic deceleration setting.”(C)

      Here are just a few: "These works were not completed at the beginning of the war."(C)

      Moreover, these works were not completed by the end of the Russo-Japanese War.

      But the shells of the armor-piercing shells were apparently good, and the publication of information from the book by E. A. Berkalov is also intended to convince you of this.
      1. -1
        5 March 2024 12: 00
        Thank you again Alexandra for your comment! This is an excellent argument for my article, showing that fans of military history do not understand anything at all and confuse everything.
        So, as far as I know, Barkhotkin did not develop shells with pyroxylin equipment, but quite the opposite - with melinite, and he died precisely from a melinite shell
        1. +1
          5 March 2024 13: 44
          You correctly noted that amateurs (and sometimes even professionals) often tend to not understand anything, make mistakes and confuse everything.

          On November 28, 1891, S.V. died in the explosion of an experimental bomb filled with melinite. Panpushko. Along with Panpushko, the following were killed: bombardier Vasily Egorov, gunner Osip Vinogradov and gunner Pyotr Shavrov.

          A M.I. Barkhotkin, from the commission on the use of explosives in the equipment of projectiles, at the end of the 1899th century, so to speak, “moved to another job,” with a promotion. In particular in 1901-XNUMX. M.I. Barkhotkin was a member of the Committee that monitored the construction of the Varyag and Retvizan in the USA. Mikhail Ivanovich Barkhotkin eventually rose to the rank of Major General in the Naval Artillery Corps.

          Please be more careful when writing your article. Of course, I do NOT encourage you to read the book by V.N. Ipatieva "The life of a chemist. Memoirs. Volume 1. 1867-1917." But at least take a look at Wikipedia to reduce confusion.
          1. 0
            5 March 2024 13: 52
            Dear Alexandra - thank you for pointing out my mistake! Yes, I turned out to be a sinner. However, this mainly concerns surnames. But what is the factual basis for the adoption of various types of explosives. And therefore I believe that there are a lot of black spots in the history of Russian naval weapons. Let's see who turns out to be right in the end.
      2. 0
        5 March 2024 12: 03
        And also thank you Alexandra for the comment that Rdutlovsky allegedly believed that the Russian Navy in 1900 was developing naval shells with picric acid - I know nothing about this. And I think that Rdutlovsky knew nothing and was completely mistaken because he was a purely land artillery designer.
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 14: 19
          In order for you to know something about this, although you are clearly not a reader, read the book by the domestic founder of the theory of fuze design V.I. Rdultovsky. Book link "Historical sketch of the development of tubes and fuses from the beginning of their use to the end of the World War 1914 - 1918." in the .rar archive I will give you:

          http://rufort.info/library/rdultovsky/index.html

          I am in every possible way for raising the educational level of my interlocutors. There’s not much to talk about with the ignorant.

          Can you find the page in the book from which the above quotes were taken?

          The commission on the use of explosives in filling shells consisted of both representatives of the Military and Naval Departments (the same M.I. Barkhotkin was from the naval artillery corps). Since 1904, V.I. was also a member of this commission. Rdultovsky.
          1. -1
            5 March 2024 14: 35
            Dear Alexandra! You are absolutely right about me: the Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer! no matter how funny it may seem to everyone, that a person agrees with his illiteracy. But the fact is that I read a lot of books and articles by such famous writers - historians as Melnikov, Titushkin, Suliga, Krestyaninov, Kofman and all others, and came to the conclusion that THEY ALL LYE and hide most of the truth. And I also read Rdutlovsky about fifteen years ago, his pages on naval artillery and I concluded that Rdutlovsky also does not know the actual state of affairs in naval artillery - that is, this is such a classified area that even the great specialist in land artillery Rdutlovsky misinformed readers in this regard . Therefore, if you don’t mind, send me a specific link to a specific page - just so that I can be convinced that re-reading Rdutovsky is a waste of time.
            1. +2
              5 March 2024 17: 34
              Your belief in conspiracy theories is... impressive. Take my word for it: “The world is ruled not by a secret lodge, but by an obvious mess.” If this or that author is mistaken, then, as a rule, he simply did not have enough horizons.

              You will find a mention of pre-war work with mixed explosives based on alloys of picric acid with naphthalene and picric acid with dinitrobenzene in Rdultovsky’s book on Chapter IV “WORK ON THE USE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE RUSSIAN ARTILLERY AND THE RUSSIAN-JAPANESE WAR 1904-1905.”

              Also in the chapter you will find a mention of the following: “Already in 1906, a patent was taken out in Germany for equipping armor-piercing shells with an alloy of TNT with 6% naphthalene. In Russia, an alloy of picric acid with naphthalene and dinitrobenzene was tested even earlier, and therefore the transition to alloys of TNT with these substances was a natural continuation of previous work "

              In Chapter III you will find a mention that in 1905 Professor A.V. Sapozhnikov proposed to organize the filling of shells with a semi-liquid alloy of trinitrocresol with picric acid, but the alloy did not find application because in 1906 TNT was chosen.
            2. +2
              5 March 2024 18: 55
              Quote: geniy
              But the fact is that I read a lot of books and articles by such famous writers - historians as Melnikov, Titushkin, Suliga, Krestyaninov, Kofman and all others, and came to the conclusion that THEY ALL LYE and hide most of the truth.

              You can use specific examples of the works of the authors you mentioned to show where “they all lie”...
              Work - a quote - a substantiation of your conclusion about a lie (with evidence, of course, and not just “I think so...”).
              1. -1
                5 March 2024 19: 13
                You can use specific examples of the works of the authors you mentioned to show where “they all lie”...

                Yes of course you can. BUT I was actually going to describe this in a separate article and not in a short comment. You can take the book “Rurik was the first” and open it to page 88 and there is a graph of armor penetration. Titushkin cited a table based on the data from this graph in his article, and none of the other historians disputes these data. And all of Andrei’s calculations from Chelyabinsk essentially repeat this, and only illiterate forum participants believe that Andrei is telling them something new, unknown.
                But the point is that the Japanese shells did not penetrate any thickness of armor at all and spontaneously exploded. that is, they made the same mistake as Andrei from Chelyabinsk - they fired at the armor with UNLOADED shells - like the Russians, and received many times higher armor penetration.
                But there are even greater misconceptions among all artillerymen that neither Melnikov nor all the others even knew about. But I won't tell you about them.
                1. +2
                  5 March 2024 19: 22
                  Quote: geniy
                  But I won't tell you about them.

                  All clear...
                  It was the fifth day of spring.
      3. 0
        5 March 2024 15: 04
        Dear Alexander, I’m just very curious to find out your personal position on this issue. So you think that the explosives of Russian shells - wet pyroxylin - were very bad and Russian shells, in principle, could not penetrate enemy armor - supposedly they self-exploded when passing the plates.
        In the process, it turned out that wet pyroxylin is not suitable for armor-piercing projectiles; it self-explodes when the projectile passes through a sufficiently thick armor plate of “modern qualities.” That's why:

        As you know, at a distance of 30 kb, Russian shells could penetrate armor about 200 mm thick. So the question is: do you think this is true or false? That is, Russian shells loaded with pyroxylin could or could not penetrate armor 200 mm thick? Or is this a pure deception of Melnikov and Titushkin? And what do you think of the creation of Andrei from Chelyabinsk, who provides data on the enormous armor penetration of Russian shells? That is, although he promised figures on the penetration of large-caliber 305 mm projectiles in the second article, it is already clear that if he considers it possible to penetrate armor thicker than the caliber of the projectile - that is, about 350-400 mm, and you, as I assume, consider it impossible to penetrate armor thicker than even 200 mm allegedly due to the SELF-EXPLOSION of pyroxylin, then would you bother to coordinate your positions with Andrey on the possible thickness of the armor to be penetrated? Why have a projectile with mechanical strength capable of penetrating 350-400 mm, if due to SELF-EXPLOSION it is much thinner?
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 17: 12
          Quote: geniy
          Dear Alexander, I’m just very curious to find out your personal position on this issue. So you think that the explosives of Russian shells - wet pyroxylin - were very bad and Russian shells, in principle, could not penetrate enemy armor - supposedly they self-exploded when passing the plates.

          Wet pyroxylin as an explosive for loading armor-piercing shells was an obsolete explosive by 1904. Maybe in the late 1880s, wet pyroxylin was not bad for steel-iron armor plates, but when firing at armor cemented using the Harvey method, especially at cemented Krupp armor, it was already an outdated, ineffective explosive, self-exploding when the projectile hit a plate more than half thick projectile caliber.

          At the very end of the 1901th century, mixed explosives based on picric acid, more suitable for armor-piercing projectiles, were tested. In XNUMX, such an explosive (maximit) was adopted by the US Armed Forces.

          Japan and Russia are late here compared to the United States. But Russia was more late than Japan, moreover, not having modern high-explosive and high-explosive shells with picric acid as an explosive for naval and field artillery.

          Russian siege artillery of that period already had such shells in calibers from 6" and higher.

          Russian shells, in principle, could not penetrate enemy armor - supposedly they self-exploded when passing through the plates.

          They could not pass through an armor plate more than half the caliber of a projectile without exploding. The explosion of pyroxylin in a 305 mm projectile at the moment of passing through the 178 mm armor plate only knocked out the plug from the armor. It no longer penetrated the bevel armor and could not cause significant damage to the internal compartments of a Japanese battleship or armored cruiser protected by thick belt armor. He could not disable the boiler room or engine room, or blow up the ammunition magazines.

          As you know, at a distance of 30 kb, Russian shells could penetrate armor about 200 mm thick. So the question is: do you think this is true or false? That is, Russian shells loaded with pyroxylin could or could not penetrate armor 200 mm thick?

          They could break through, but only by exploding at the moment the slab was broken through. A good armor-piercing projectile should, having penetrated the belt armor, also penetrate the bevel armor and explode in the boiler room, engine room of the ship, in its ammunition cellar. The Russian 305 mm armor-piercing projectile could not explode like that due to the characteristics of the explosive and fuse. And the steel casings of the shells were apparently good.

          And what do you think of the creation of Andrei from Chelyabinsk, who provides data on the enormous armor penetration of Russian shells?

          Quote what Andrey from Chelyabinsk writes about the enormous armor penetration of Russian shells. I will characterize my attitude to what is written in the quote.

          Why have a projectile with mechanical strength capable of penetrating 350-400 mm, if due to SELF-EXPLOSION it is much thinner?

          It is well known that in Russian history a lot of things were not done on time. At the end of the 1880th century, the Commission for the Use of Explosives in Projectiles tried to find an explosive of “modern quality” that was more resistant to the impact of a projectile on armor for armor-piercing projectiles than wet pyroxylin, and before the war even found a couple of formulations for mixed explosives based on an alloy of picric acid and naphthalene. and an alloy of picric acid with dinitrobenzene. But... in the Russian naval and field artillery, even high-explosive fragmentation and high-explosive shells with ordinary picric acid did not have time to be introduced by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, those that appeared in France and Germany back in the late XNUMXs. By the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, the Russian coastal artillery had armor-piercing shells with inert ammunition made of sand and sawdust. The Russian Empire has traditionally been slow to advance military innovation in key areas. Therefore, the Russian-Japanese war was military-technically lost even before it began.
          1. +1
            5 March 2024 18: 15
            Wet pyroxylin as an explosive for loading armor-piercing shells was an obsolete explosive by 1904.

            If there are a few particularly illiterate readers here, then I will inform them that these words of Alexander are a complete lie or the deepest delusion on his part. Because before the start of the Russo-Japanese War, all Russian sailor officers considered Russian shells equipped with wet pyroxylin to be the best shells in the world, far superior to Japanese ones, and only towards the end of the war did they have doubts about this. But the Japanese also abandoned their shells very soon after the end of the war.
            1. 0
              5 March 2024 18: 26
              Well, you’ll figure it out, my words are complete lies, or the deepest delusion.

              Because after Tsushima, experts came to the unequivocal conclusion (apparently as a result of a conspiracy) that Russian armor-piercing and so-called “high-explosive” shells were no good due to weak explosive charges and an unsatisfactory, insufficiently slowed down, insensitive and failure-prone Brink fuse equipped with a very weak intermediate detonator of 45 grams of dry pyroxylin.

              As Rdultovsky wrote: “Nevertheless, in the first days of the war, the Main Artillery Directorate, not having a proven example of high-explosive shells for 10- and 6-inch guns, was forced to accept for them steel shells with naval-style pyroxylin equipment, but supplied them with more satisfactory fuses 11DM. Mortar 11- and 9-inch shells had pyroxylin ground ammunition, little tested and unreliable, and a satisfactory 5DM fuse."

              And those who previously thought otherwise and so sincerely believed in the superiority of shells and fuses to test the effectiveness of which for purposes the Naval Department did not find the means to test before the war were completely sincerely mistaken.

              I hope you can provide quotes about the magnificent, highly reliable Brink fuse? :)
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 18: 32
                Well, you’ll figure it out, my words are complete lies, or the deepest delusion.

                The words of Alexander A are a lie or a delusion - what's the difference? The main thing is that this is complete misinformation for other readers.
              2. 0
                5 March 2024 18: 42
                As Rdultovsky wrote: “Nevertheless, in the first days of the war, the Main Artillery Directorate, not having a proven example of high-explosive shells for 10- and 6-inch guns, was forced to accept for them steel shells with naval-style pyroxylin equipment, but supplied their more satisfactory 11DM fuses. 11- and 9-inch mortar shells had pyroxylin ground equipment, little tested and unreliable, and a satisfactory 5DM fuse."

                This is where Alexander’s deception or mistake lies: that he believed in Rdutlovsky’s words. After all, Rdutlovsky served in the LAND Department. That is, the Main Artillery Directorate is in charge of LAND guns. And note: the control of the land guns “was forced to accept for them steel shells with MARINE type pyroxylin equipment,” that is, equipped with WET PYROXYLINE, but Alexandra does not notice this,
                1. 0
                  5 March 2024 18: 57
                  The illustrations show fragments of an American 12" projectile with an explosive charge of wet pyroxylin and fragments of a similar projectile with a Maximit explosive charge. I believe this is the last piece of unnecessary information that I will share with you. :)

                  PS There are approximately 7 thousand fragments in the second photo.
              3. 0
                5 March 2024 18: 53
                And those who previously thought otherwise and so sincerely believed in the superiority of shells and fuses to test the effectiveness of which for purposes the Naval Department did not find the means to test before the war were completely sincerely mistaken.
                I hope you can provide quotes about the magnificent, highly reliable Brink fuse? :)

                Yes, they were wrong, but not in the way you think. That is, the fuses of Russian shells were designed for a much closer combat and shooting distance. The fact is that as the distance increases, the projectile flies an increasing distance and at the same time is slowed down by air resistance. Because of this, the final velocity of the projectile drops and the force of impact of the projectile on an obstacle is also greatly reduced. And for this and other reasons, Russian shells often did not explode and because of this they showed an incredibly low impact.
                But before the war, Russian officers knew nothing about this. The fact is that the standard target before the war was 1,5 inches thick (about 37 mm), and after the war the test target was reduced to half an inch (about 12,7 mm). And besides, the Russian officers themselves are to blame - if they had managed to fight at short distances of 5-10 cables, then the Russian shells would have had a lethal effect and destroyed the Japanese fleet.
                1. 0
                  5 March 2024 20: 59
                  Towards Tsushima there were no longer any illusions about the battle distance of the squadrons, but they had not mastered firing in salvos towards Tsushima either. The fuse sensitivity must be high for all types of projectiles. If Brink, while developing his “Colonel Brink Model 1896 double-capsule fuse.” for some reason he chose a stupid firing pin for the rifle cartridge primer he used and then very expensive aluminum for the second firing pin, then this is just his strange thoughtlessness. For the bottom tube of the 1894 model (which was built from the bottom tube of the 1883 model by adding to it a powder firecracker to initiate the bursting charge of smokeless gunpowder and a spring for additional protection against premature puncture of the primer in case of an accidental impact before the shot) and for fuses 5DM and 11DM The military department had no problems with sensitivity.
          2. 0
            5 March 2024 18: 21
            it was already an outdated, ineffective explosive that self-exploded when the projectile hit a plate more than half the caliber of the projectile thick.

            This is a completely delusional statement - Russian shells have never self-exploded when passing through armor plates during shelling at firing ranges. That is why I invite all forum participants to present documentary archival evidence of penetration of armor plates by loaded Russian shells.
            And that is precisely why such wild opinions appear about the self-explosion of Russian shells, because all archival data is still classified.
            1. +1
              5 March 2024 18: 49
              Quote: geniy
              This is a completely delusional statement - Russian shells have never self-exploded when passing through armor plates during shelling at firing ranges.

              Bugaga. Before the war, the Navy Department never found the means to test the effect on a real target (or imitation of one) of its armor-piercing and “high-explosive” shells “assembled”, with fuses and explosives.

              Test shootings of armor plates were carried out with shells with inert (I mean, without explosives) equipment without fuses.

              Your problem is that you are firstly ignorant, and only secondly ignorant. But that's not the worst thing. The worst thing is that you came up with a conspiracy theory for yourself, which is apparently very valuable to you.

              I myself am sometimes ignorant, but I am ready to share information with those who want to learn new things for themselves. You want to find out only what confirms your, since you use this word, delusional theory that Melnikov, Titushkin, Suliga, Krestyaninov, Kofman “and all the others” “THEY ALL LYE and hide most of the truth.”

              I will reveal the terrible truth. If you take a random sample of “people at a bus stop,” more than 40% of them (on average) require some form of mental health care. Now you have to live with this terrible truth.

              You obviously don’t need my information on Tsushima shells. As I understand it, you will now expose FALSE in the comments not only from Melnikov, Titushkin, Suliga, Krestyaninov, Kofman and Andrey from Chelyabinsk, but also from a certain Alexander.

              That's the way :)
  9. +3
    3 March 2024 10: 14
    Yes, it’s not an easy task, making armor plates...
  10. +5
    3 March 2024 10: 30
    A few comments, I hope the author will not be offended.
    At the same time, the process of creating a cemented slab using the Krupp method is very difficult. I will give it briefly according to the description given by the respected P.V. Sakharov in his work “Making armor plates using the Krupp method.”

    As a small addition, the article describes the steel production technology at the Società degli altiforni, fonderie e acciaierie plant in Terni, Italy.
    And according to the conclusions.
    Obviously, there are some minimum and maximum values ​​of resistance that an armor plate can have if the boundary requirements for the chemical composition of its workpiece and the technical process are met. Simply put, if all the tolerances are a plus, we will get a slab of the best strength, and if, on the contrary, it is a minus, then the strength will be minimal. Between these minimum and maximum the durability of the armor plates produced will vary. But it is quite difficult to imagine that the deviations and tolerances were such that the durability of the slab varied by plus or minus 19% from the average value.

    The author has done some kind of research work, which cannot but inspire respect. True, long before the author, this work had already been carried out by metallurgists within the framework of such a branch of science as materials science, which studies the patterns of relationships between composition - structure (electronic, atomic, nano-, meso-, micro-, macro-) - production technology - functional (mechanical, thermal, electrical, magnetic, optical, etc.) properties of the material.
    In relation to the issue under consideration, we are interested in such properties of steel as hardenability and hardenability.
    Hardenability - the ability of steel to obtain a martensitic (or troostite-martensite) structure and high hardness to a certain depth during hardening.
    The hardenability of the same steel in different heats can fluctuate within fairly wide limits depending on changes in the chemical composition within the grade, steel composition, grain size, product geometry, etc.
    Hardenability - the ability of steel to accept hardening, that is, to form a martensitic structure and high hardness. Depends to a greater extent on the carbon content in martensite and to a lesser extent on the content of alloying elements.
    Based on the above, the different resistance of different armor plates is a completely natural phenomenon, since in the conditions of metallurgical production it is not possible to ensure a constant chemical composition of steels and the constancy of all technological parameters.
    Regarding the conclusion
    Simply put, if all the tolerances are a plus, we will get a slab of the best strength, and if, on the contrary, it is a minus, then the strength will be minimal.

    then it is incorrect. Firstly, in reality in metallurgy the situation “all tolerances are plus” or “all tolerances are minus” practically does not occur. In reality we have a plus or minus. Secondly, an excess of “plus” cannot always give the “highest resistance”. For example, on the one hand, the higher the carbon content in steel, therefore, after quenching and in martensite, the higher the hardness. But on the other hand, the higher the hardness, the lower the ductility. That is, having received the “maximum plus” in terms of carbon content, we will obtain an armor surface with maximum hardness and minimum ductility. It is not a fact that such a combination will give “maximum” durability.
    Here's an option
    so that the resistance of the slab changes by plus or minus 19% of the average value
    taking into account all technological factors of production is quite possible.
    1. +6
      3 March 2024 11: 32
      Good day!
      Quote: Dekabrist
      I hope the author won't be offended

      I never take offense at constructive criticism :))) It happened that I later wrote a refutation to myself :)
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The author has done some kind of research work, which cannot but inspire respect. True, long before the author, this work had already been carried out by metallurgists within the framework of such a branch of science as materials science

      Unfortunately, historians are terribly far from physics :)))) Therefore, during the day, you won’t find data demonstrating the limits of armor durability. In addition, as you understand, the durability of armor from the beginning of the century can hardly be gleaned from a modern textbook on strength of materials.
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Firstly, in reality in metallurgy the situation “all tolerances are plus” or “all tolerances are minus” practically does not occur. In reality we have a plus or minus. Secondly, an excess of “plus” cannot always give the “highest resistance”.

      Sorry, but here I meant something slightly different. Armor, as a material, has a number of parameters, and you name some of them (the same carbon content). Due to the technological features of those years, each parameter has a “floating” value, a deviation. Minimum and maximum values. And this deviation affects the durability of the armor. Moreover, it was not at all meant that the maximum value has the maximum impact. Maybe the maximum resistance for this particular armor thickness will be somewhere in the middle of the minmax or at two thirds.
      I didn’t mean the minimum-maximum change in the parameter, but the minimum-maximum impact on durability.
      Quote: Dekabrist
      taking into account all technological factors of production is quite possible

      Still too big a deviation. Like a rare extreme, perhaps?
      1. +5
        3 March 2024 12: 09
        Heat treatment is not my specialty, but for example, the critical diameter of hardenability in Soviet reference books for some steels had a spread of 2 times, and for others it is quite large. Apparently the number of parameters influencing heat treatment, in addition to the chemical composition, is too large, which in total gives a gigantic scatter.
      2. +5
        3 March 2024 13: 30
        Unfortunately, historians are terribly far from physics

        This is a common misconception. Currently, physical and chemical research methods are an integral part of historical research. Including materials science.
        Therefore, during the day with fire, you will not find data demonstrating the limits of armor resistance. In addition, as you understand, the durability of armor from the beginning of the century can hardly be gleaned from a modern textbook on strength of materials.

        The resistance of armor is characterized by such parameters as the limit of rear strength and the limit of through penetration, and such data certainly exists, but almost all of this literature is closed or is a real bibliographic rarity, such as, for example, “Review of the production of armor plates for vertical protection of ships” published by the Research Institute of Military Shipbuilding Red Army Navy, 1933.
        Sorry, but here I meant something slightly different. Armor, as a material, has a number of parameters, and you name some of them (the same carbon content). Due to the technological features of those years, each parameter has a “floating” value, a deviation. Minimum and maximum values. And this deviation affects the durability of the armor.

        Armor is steel. And the chemical composition of steel, which determines its mechanical properties, always has “floating values” within limits limited by the standard. Moreover, at the present time too. It's unavoidable. Accordingly, the mechanical properties of steel will also “fluctuate” within certain limits. After smelting, the steel goes through a number of technological processes, each of which also “floats” in terms of parameters. As a result, the output may be products with rather large fluctuations in properties. For example - . armor penetration of various types of armor by the main caliber of the battleship Poltava.
        As you can see, the fluctuations in the results are more than 10 percent. So, taking into account the fact that at the beginning of the 19th century the Obukhov and Izhora plants were just mastering the technology for producing cemented steel, XNUMX percent is a very realistic figure.
        1. +4
          3 March 2024 13: 44
          Quote: Dekabrist
          This is a common misconception.

          Yes, as if not - you write it yourself
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Almost all of this literature is closed or is a real bibliographic rarity

          Quote: Dekabrist
          And the chemical composition of steel, which determines its mechanical properties, always has “floating values” within limits limited by the standard. Moreover, at the present time too. It's unavoidable.

          Who's arguing? :)
          Quote: Dekabrist
          For example - . armor penetration of various types of armor by the main caliber of the battleship Poltava.

          Sorry, but this is a completely inappropriate example. The graphs are compiled for different types of armor and do not show the deviation of the same armor in terms of durability at all. On the contrary, the graph seems to record the point beyond which the armor is penetrated, although in reality there is not a point there, but a sector
          1. +2
            3 March 2024 14: 07
            If you make a graph “for the same armor” of different batches, you will see a similar picture.
            1. +4
              3 March 2024 14: 13
              Quote: Dekabrist
              If you make a graph “for the same armor” of different batches, you will see a similar picture.

              Not even parties. Even one batch. The result “walks” even within the slab, it turns out
              1. +5
                3 March 2024 15: 03
                The result “walks” even within the slab, it turns out

                Uneven hardening. It happens. Heat treatment or chemical defect. slab composition. And for large slabs - perhaps even the norm (meaning, with such dimensions, it is difficult to ensure the same cooling rate for both the center and the edges of the slab.)
                1. +3
                  3 March 2024 15: 10
                  Quote: Chief Officer Lom
                  And for large slabs - perhaps even the norm

                  Very similar, dear Alexey hi
                2. +1
                  11 March 2024 08: 19
                  The problem of the same temperature throughout the entire volume of the furnace still exists. And it is an important factor in technical processes.
                  Again, the temperature of the plate during heat treatment. How was it measured then? By eye, by experience? Were there any devices? Who is the artisan? One person is responsible, and the other doesn’t care. If only they paid money. Nowadays it’s hard to find normal people, but what then?
              2. +5
                3 March 2024 15: 06
                The result “walks” even within the slab, it turns out

                And there is an explanation for this factor. Let's briefly go through the technology.
                We pour steel into ingots. Already at this stage, segregation of carbon and sulfur takes place. Liquation is the heterogeneity of the chemical composition of a metal that occurs during its crystallization. Sulfur is red-brittle, that is, the appearance of cracks during hot processing. Carbon is hardenable and hardenable. That is, already at the stage of obtaining the ingot we have “floating values” of properties.
                Next comes cementation - saturation of the surface layer of the metal with carbon using illuminating gas. Without delving into the intricacies of the technology, we can say that it is unrealistic to achieve uniform saturation of the entire surface of the ingot with carbon using this technology. That is, we get another portion of “floating values”. Then heat treatment and mechanical processing make their contribution.
                As a result, even one slab can have significantly different properties in area.
                1. +5
                  3 March 2024 15: 09
                  There are absolutely no objections. Thank you!
    2. +2
      3 March 2024 14: 53
      As a small addition, the article describes the steel production technology at the Società degli altiforni, fonderie e acciaierie plant in Terni, Italy.

      From a modern point of view, the combination of a high rate of hardening of the outer layer in water in the absence of subsequent low tempering is surprising. Sakharov writes about cracks in the outer layer - this is a clear description of the cementite mesh, which is now being eliminated by prescribing another heat treatment. This is necessary to reduce internal stress.
      It’s not clear why they put up with this then; theoretically, it was possible to make the armor even better.
  11. BAI
    +1
    3 March 2024 10: 30
    Of the 13 armor plates, only 2 had strength that met the standard, the rest turned out to be stronger.

    Well, that's good. Raise production requirements and even defects have satisfactory characteristics. Expensive production has no defects. I think this is brilliant.
  12. +1
    3 March 2024 11: 44
    Based on the above data, I created a table, below there will be comments on it.
    For some reason I can’t see the table. Is it in the article?
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 11: 56
      Strange. I can't see it either. Contacted support
  13. +1
    3 March 2024 12: 53
    Until the respected editors correct me, I will attach the table to the comment
  14. +4
    3 March 2024 13: 36
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    Considering my “knowledge” in metallurgy, I have nothing to add. This is simply a plus. hi
    1. +4
      3 March 2024 14: 18
      Same crap... recourse Because it’s just a plus in the morning smile
  15. +2
    3 March 2024 13: 46
    Yes, how quickly you can lose competence in production. If back in 17, the ship armor made in Russia was on a par with Germany and Britain, then during the construction of Sov-class battleships. Union, most of the finished slabs were scrapped.
    And a question to the respected Author, but in the process of searching for materials for the article you did not dig up - what kind of method of hardening armor plates was proposed by Gantke? I saw mention of it in Vinogradov and other authors, but what does this mean? I read, it seems in Tsushima, that this method involved releasing the front part to a certain depth, which contributed to the “slipping” of the projectile when it met the outer, plastic layer and rested against the hard core of the armor plate.
    1. +3
      3 March 2024 14: 14
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      And a question to the respected Author, but in the process of searching for materials for the article you did not dig up - what kind of method of hardening armor plates was proposed by Gantke?

      Good afternoon There was something about this, I'll take a closer look
    2. 0
      11 March 2024 08: 25
      In the Russian Empire there were also problems with thick armor. But it is also quite possible that they were equipped with instruments and equipment that began to show the real quality of the armor and began to be rejected. Nobody wants to sit. Yes, and what can I say, the technical level in many industries has fallen.
      1. 0
        12 March 2024 07: 49
        I think we just forgot how. Specialists, who died, who emigrated. Yes, and there was a long time period. England, during the “battleship holidays,” also significantly sank in the construction of battleships. But until the 20s she was a trendsetter, so to speak. It’s easy to lose skills, just like we do in the construction of civil aircraft, and it’s very difficult to gain them later.
  16. +4
    3 March 2024 14: 35
    Dear Andrey, good afternoon!
    Thank you very much for the work done to systematize the knowledge.
  17. +1
    3 March 2024 14: 49
    "2–255 for slabs of given thickness and 2–265 for actual thickness"
    (2265-2265)/2255=0,44% difference is purely calculated... request
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 15: 11
      Quote: DrEng02
      the difference is purely calculated

      I tried to calculate this way and that, but no amount of rounding shows such a difference
      1. +1
        3 March 2024 15: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        2265-2265

        2265- 2255 request
  18. +1
    3 March 2024 15: 10
    "up to a thousand degrees, these slabs last from 7 to 20 days, and gas is released between them,"
    1) gas probably means lighting?
    2) is the difference in time due to the thickness of the slab being manufactured? And accordingly the thickness of the cemented layer? Interesting - was the thickness of this layer proportional for slabs of different thicknesses?
    1. +1
      5 March 2024 01: 08
      About Krupp cemented armor from the 35th minute:

  19. +4
    3 March 2024 16: 16
    Andrey, thanks for the article! If I understand correctly, our Krupp armor showed above average results. And at that time our armor-piercing shells were required to penetrate armor of a larger caliber. So, for 12-dm shells - 16-dm armor. Those. Was everything fine with armor and armor-piercing shells for Tsushima? But this didn't help us...
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 19: 32
      Good afternoon, dear Andrey!
      Quote: Andrey Tameev
      If I understand correctly, our Krupp armor showed above average results.

      Well, how can I say... the indicators are clearly not bad, certainly not worse than foreign ones. But in general, in the article after “Let’s go for a record” there should have been a question mark, I completely forgot that the moderators do not allow it in the title. So instead of a question, it turned out to be a statement.
  20. +6
    3 March 2024 16: 36
    A rare article with very interesting information, which for me, for example, requires time to comprehend and double-check. But, in any case, the author is a great fellow, he is still engaged in historical research, despite the current situation...
    1. +3
      3 March 2024 19: 33
      Glad you liked it, thank you! :)))
  21. +3
    3 March 2024 16: 57
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Good afternoon There was something about this, I'll take a closer look

    There was an article by Stvolyar
    1. +1
      4 March 2024 08: 40
      That's right, I found it, thanks!
  22. -5
    3 March 2024 17: 00
    If not, then why all your “revelations”?

    In this comment I did not intend to open America, this is just another attempt to make at least some readers think, doubt and suspect the government of deceit.
    The massively unexploded shells in Chin-yen are just a banal illustration on my part that shells should explode. And you accuse me of speaking like Captain Obvious. This is true at the moment. But it follows from this that if a projectile has an explosive charge and a fuse, then it is bound to explode! And if it is obliged, it means that after designing and manufacturing a pilot batch of exploding armor-piercing shells, they were required to test them with real shots at armor plates - with the indispensable condition that these shells pierce the armor and explode after it. And these experiments must be recorded in documents and, like a GOLDEN FUND, these documents must be stored in the naval archive. And I believe that Andrei is successfully deceiving all amateurs by not mentioning in a single word the shelling of armored plates with LOADED ammunition with explosives and fuses.
    He talks a lot about unloaded ammunition, but about loaded ammunition he is completely silent! Just don’t think that I’m expecting some truthful information from him.
    1. +4
      3 March 2024 20: 10
      Quote: geniy
      He talks a lot about unloaded ammunition, but about loaded ammunition he is completely silent!

      The trouble is that, due to your “genius,” you break into open doors.
      All you need to do is read about testing methods for shooting armor plates.
      Look online for the multi-volume “Artillery Course”... Maybe you’ll learn something useful for yourself.

      Quote: geniy
      Just don’t think that I’m expecting some truthful information from him.

      Write it yourself, otherwise all you know is to pour feces on the fan... :)
      1. -4
        3 March 2024 22: 33
        The trouble is that, due to your “genius,” you break into open doors.
        All you need to do is read about testing methods for shooting armor plates.
        Look online for the multi-volume “Artillery Course”...
        This is how you can deceive all the other stupid readers. And what is written in any textbook is often very different from real life. Sometimes I had to deal with such monstrous perversions in technology that my hair just stood out in horror.
        Therefore, you don’t need to mention to me about the methodology from the textbook. I just ask you and everyone else to provide me with EVIDENCE of the actual implementation of these techniques - that is, the firing of LOADED large-caliber shells at armored plates in 1894. That is, just point me in the archival document where in 1894 the actual firing of LOADED shells at armored plates is described.
        Out of naivety, I believe that these documents are still classified...
        1. +1
          4 March 2024 09: 16
          Quote: geniy
          I just ask you and everyone else to provide me with EVIDENCE of the actual implementation of these techniques - that is, the firing of LOADED large-caliber shells at armored plates in 1894.

          Will it ever dawn on you that, for obvious reasons, the acceptance of shells is checked by shooting with unloaded ammunition? :)))
          1. -3
            4 March 2024 09: 24
            Will it ever dawn on you that, for obvious reasons, the acceptance of shells is checked by shooting with unloaded ammunition? :)))

            Will it ever dawn on you that in addition to mechanical strength, the projectile also contains an explosive charge and a fuse for it? and sometimes it would be necessary to check the strength of not only the steel body of the projectile, but also the explosive charge and the fuse? That is, so that the fuse acts correctly and detonates the explosive only AFTER PASSING the armor? But many amateurs naively think that this is easy to achieve. But Japanese shells did not adhere to this rule - they exploded immediately upon impact with the outer side of the armor. What about Russian shells in this regard? Is there evidence or not?
            1. +2
              4 March 2024 10: 22
              Quote: geniy
              Will it ever dawn on you that in addition to mechanical strength, the projectile also contains an explosive charge and a fuse for it?

              Will it ever dawn on you that in an era when people tried to determine the quality of shells by knocking on the sound, such tests were simply neglected?
            2. +1
              4 March 2024 18: 18
              Quote: geniy
              Will it ever dawn on you that in addition to mechanical strength, the projectile also contains an explosive charge and a fuse for it?

              It seems you don’t understand that you are mixing different entities together: shooting armor and a projectile for strength (a projectile with an inert filling and a combat fuse) and shooting, in which the effectiveness of a combat projectile on a target is tested. These are DIFFERENT tests.
              Now Andrey is writing about the first type of test.
              That's when he starts writing about the second type (testing the effect of a military projectile on a target) and suddenly writes some kind of heresy (Andrey, sorry, this is a figure of speech... :)), then you, armed with your imagination (because nothing else is yours) I didn’t see it as verbiage), you will refute it...
              In the meantime, as I wrote above, you are just throwing it at the fan. However, it is understandable: the fourth day of spring.
              1. 0
                4 March 2024 21: 29
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                and suddenly he writes some kind of heresy (Andrey, sorry, this is a figure of speech... :) )

                Well, I can! :))))) But, I hope, then you will correct me
  23. +2
    3 March 2024 18: 41
    Moreover, old armor steel and somehow, according to the current concept, deoxidized with ferromanganese or ferrosilicon - aluminum and silico-calcium have not yet been properly deoxidized!

    Krupp chromium-nickel armor of the best quality in the 10s of the 20th century contained carbon 0.31%, silicon 0.02%, sulfur 0.02% (but often up to 0.06% sulfur), phosphorus 0.02% (but again there were up to 0.05% phosphorus ), manganese 0.30%, nickel 3.5-4%, chromium 1.5-2%.

    Those. the armor was deoxidized extremely poorly!

    Aluminum and calcium silicide have not yet been properly used for deoxidation. and there is not enough silicon and manganese for deoxidation, and for at least some neutralization of sulfur you need to have at least 0.4% manganese and above, which is not observed at all!

    According to Tyzhnov, for high-quality self-deoxidation of steels using the silicon-reductive acid process, 0.3% or more silicon is needed.

    In the best case, they used self-oxidized acid steel obtained by the acid silicon-reducing open-hearth process according to Tyzhnov.
    Such steel is calm (not boiling) and contains very few gases even with a silicon content of 0.17-0.20%.
    A larger amount of silicon above 0.3% was avoided in this way and manganese ore or manganese oxides were piled on the slag, then with hot acidic open hearth, it is possible to reduce silicon and manganese to 0.4% along with it.
    If ilmenite or, less commonly, sphene was poured into the slag, then it was possible to obtain a titanium-reducing acid process and obtain steel alloyed with titanium up to 0.2-0.3%.

    (It is known that Obukhov also discovered (Anosov also did this) that with crucible melting under a flux containing ilmenite or titanomagnetite, the quality of crucible steel improves dramatically!
    Due to the recovery of a certain amount of titanium from the flux and its transformation into steel! )

    The vanadium-reducing acid process was well known; vanadium-containing slags or vanadium oxides were poured into the slag and steel alloyed with vanadium was obtained.

    The problem is that in acidic processes neither phosphorus nor sulfur are removed at all, and even during deoxidation and alloying with ferroalloys, both sulfur and phosphorus were introduced into the metal!
    Especially a lot of phosphorus was brought into metal with mirror cast iron and ferromanganese!
    The method for removing phosphorus (and at the same time carbon) from ferromanganese is extremely simple (ferromanganese powder is heated in a reverberatory furnace with caustic soda, or its mixture with lime and salt) - but was not known then!
    And during the hot running of acidic open-hearth furnaces, phosphorus was reduced from slag and intensively transferred into the metal!
    In particular, the vanadium-reductive acid process has ceased to be used only because in the chemical and chemical-thermodynamic sense, vanadium in oxygen compounds is an analogue of phosphorus and therefore they are oxidized and reduced together.
    Any vanadium steel obtained by the vanadium-reducing acid process was inevitably contaminated with phosphorus!
  24. +2
    3 March 2024 18: 43
    “Initially, problems arose with the production of Krupp slabs at the Obukhov plant - when cutting the edges of the slabs, vertical cracks were discovered along the sections, which went very deep into the slab and made it unsuitable for further processing. At the beginning of production, such defects accounted for up to 20% of all slabs manufactured by the plant. According to recommendations Krupp engineers slightly reduced the carbon and silicon content in the armor material, but this did not produce results.After additional research, it turned out that the defect was due to two reasons:
    the difference in the methods of forging plates - under a hammer with rolling on rollers in Essen and a forging press at the Obukhov plant;
    the difference in the methods of casting slabs in open hearth furnaces - the “main” method at Krupp and the “sour” method at the Obukhov plant.
    The instructions of Krupp engineers were taken into account, after which the production of slabs at the Obukhov plant was established and finally established."

    These hottest forging cracks were undoubtedly caused by the high levels of sulfur in the steel.

    70-90% of the sulfur content in steel is determined by the sulfur content in cast iron, and to a somewhat lesser extent by scrap and fuel.
    Since the sulfur content during acidic (with a lining of acidic oxides, i.e. based on silicon oxide) open-hearth smelting does not decrease in any way, then if the quality of cast iron is particularly “successful” in terms of sulfur, the steel will be rubbish!
    Because there is acidic slag based on silicates, and acidic slag cannot interact with sulfur and phosphorus.
    During basic (with a lining of basic oxides, i.e., calcium and magnesium oxides) open-hearth smelting, both sulfur and phosphorus are removed very well.
    Because there the main slag (based on calcium and magnesium oxides) and sulfur and phosphorus are satisfactorily removed.
    If the molar content of basic oxides is more than silicon oxide by 2-2.5 times.
    But in the basic open-hearth process, it is in principle impossible to remove more than 50% of the sulfur from the charge at one time.
    To remove large quantities of sulfur and phosphorus, it is necessary to drain the slag from the furnace several times during smelting and add new slag.
    This is a complicated and lengthy matter!
    For the conversion of phosphorous cast iron into steel, they used open-hearth furnaces, but they appeared in the USSR only in the 50s, at AzovStal!
    Or two main furnaces worked in series and the melt was poured from one furnace to another!

    And in a conventional main open-hearth furnace it causes problems and deoxidation of steel.
    Deoxidation is the removal of oxygen from steel!
    It was only in the 50-60s in the USSR that they began to deoxidize steel not in furnaces, but in ladles!
    Avoid letting furnace slag get into the ladles!
    Almost all common ferroalloys and all deoxidizers restore phosphorus from the slag back into the metal and it deteriorates!
    Ferromanganese, mirror cast iron, ferrosilicon, aluminum, calcium silicide, etc. - like steel deoxidizers - they all restore phosphorus from the slag back into the metal!

    So, with the same phosphorus and sulfur content in those days and until the 80s, the quality of steels smelted in basic open hearths was noticeably worse (in terms of gases, inclusions, etc.) than in acidic open hearths, then it takes a very, very long time for critical parts Only acid steel castings were used!

    Since there were very few places where there was a charge pure in terms of phosphorus and sulfur, they did it - this is how they first smelted steel in basic open-hearth, and without deoxidizing them, they cast them into vertical molds, since in high castings segregation is always observed (stratification of the melt during crystallization), then sulfur and Phosphorus, as highly liquidating elements, tends to accumulate in the upper, profitable part of the casting.
    Liquation for sulfur and phosphorus can reach up to 10 times!
    Those. The main part of the casting is good for sulfur, but the edges are no good!
    The upper part of the casting was chopped off with a wedge hammer or cut off, and everything that remained was dumped like scrap into acidic open-hearth.
    And they remelted the base steel castings in an acid furnace.
    Cutting off parts of castings with a high concentration of sulfur and phosphorus is already practiced everywhere!

    Often, to save money, the melt from basic open hearth was simply poured into acidic open hearth.

    This is called a duplex or triplex steel smelting process; in one or two successive main open-hearth furnaces, a semi-product, a charge billet, was smelted, which was finally smelted in an acidic open-hearth furnace.
  25. +2
    3 March 2024 18: 47
    How does sulfur negatively affect steel???

    Sulfur dissolves in liquid steel in any proportion, but to a limited extent in solid steel.
    When steels crystallize, iron sulfides, which are the last to solidify, are released along all grain boundaries.
    Moreover, iron itself and its sulfide form a low-melting and very brittle and fragile eutectic with a melting point of only 988C.
    And which eutectic surrounds all ferrite grains with the thinnest film.
    If the steel is also poorly deoxidized and there is oxygen in it, then an even more fusible ternary oxysulfide eutectic is formed from the oxides of iron, iron and sulfide.
    These intergranular spaces and eutectic films, when the metal is heated before rolling or forging or stamping, soften and completely lose their strength long before the rest of the metal.
    When you try to forge, roll and stamp such steel, it begins to crack!
    Of course, impact strength also decreases when cold.

    This is called the red brittleness of steel!
    To some extent, the damage caused by eutectics can be reduced by long and repeated forging or hot rolling of steel in order to destroy these same gaps and films.
    Therefore, red brittleness is especially evident in steel castings, which are first subjected to hot forging and rolling.


    And we also have nickel.
    Metallic nickel could not be smelted in the form of a ductile metal for a very long time because of its affinity for sulfur; already 0.02% sulfur made nickel brittle to such an extent that it could be crushed in porcelain into a fine powder!
    To obtain ductile nickel, it is alloyed with magnesium, calcium, i.e. elements with a high affinity for sulfur.

    For this reason, nickel in armor steel and with a low sulfur content and low manganese has a very bad effect on strength and toughness.

    What will happen if, when melting steel, the charge contains both sulfur and nickel, and even less than 0.03-0.04% of each?

    That's right - the steels will also contain nickel sulfide!

    Iron sulfide alone makes steel brittle and red-brittle.
    And the chemical affinity of nickel for sulfur is even greater than that of iron!

    Eutectics are formed from nickel sulfide, iron sulfide and iron itself.

    These eutectic layers again fall out during crystallization around the steel crystals, surrounding and separating them - the steel is ultimately brittle.

    Eutectic layers of nickel-iron sulfide with iron!

    The melting point of iron-iron sulfide eutectic is 988C, eutectics from non-ferrous metal sulfides mixed with iron sulfide melt at 750-950C!

    The same applies to copper.


    Manganese has a very high affinity for sulfur, even greater than that of nickel.

    Manganese sulfide crystals melt at 1610 C, do not form sulfide layers, and when the manganese content in ordinary steels is more than 0.3%, eutectic layers are not formed.

    But for armor steels it is necessary to have manganese of at least 0.6% and higher - precisely because of nickel!

    During continuous casting of steels, there should generally be 90-100 times more manganese than sulfur in steel!

    Otherwise there will be cracks!

    Soviet tank armor in 1944 had: carbon from 0.22% to 0.31%. silicon 1.3-1.4%, manganese 1.32-1.35%. chromium 0.75-0.9%, molybdenum 0.15-0.18%, nickel 1.1-1.7%, but also sulfur and phosphorus less than 0.02%.

    Those. it was very well deoxidized by silicon, the manganese content was much higher than necessary to eliminate the harmful effects of iron and nickel sulfides.
  26. +3
    3 March 2024 18: 53
    But alloying steels with manganese cannot, in principle, completely eliminate the harmful effects of sulfur on steels.
    Manganese sulfides are still quite brittle and form inclusions along the grain boundaries of the metal, and therefore also reduce its plastic properties and impact strength, but of course not to such a terrible extent - as sulfide and oxysulfide eutectics based on iron and nickel!

    For a modern metallurgist, a sulfur and phosphorus content of 0.04% is absolutely unacceptable!
    It is necessary in more than an order of magnitude less.

    For armor smelting, the purity of the charge in terms of sulfur and phosphorus is also extremely important.
    And for cemented armor with a high content of phosphorus and sulfur, the impact strength also drops precisely because of the increased phosphide and sulfide brittleness in the cemented layer!

    This was bad in Europe!

    In general, metallurgists for a very long time did not understand the exceptional importance for many purposes of reducing the sulfur and phosphorus content in steels to less than 0.01%.
    It is now very well known that the manifestation of a sharp increase in the temperature threshold of cold brittleness and a decrease in impact strength begins with an increase in sulfur content of more than 0,02%, and for many grades of steel already from 0,003%!

    At the beginning of the 20th century, armor (and any) steel with 0.04-0.06% sulfur and phosphorus was considered suitable, but now almost any steel with such an amount of sulfur and phosphorus is considered unsuitable for almost any use.
    Although the norms and standards to this day still have the old norms for sulfur and phosphorus content of 0.04% or less, they already consider less than 0.01% sulfur and phosphorus to be truly good steel, and for many needs they require steel with thousandths of a percent of sulfur and phosphorus !
    Since the late 60s and early 70s of the 20th century, the demand for metal with a sulfur content of 0,015...0,005% and lower has sharply increased, which is due to a sharp increase in the quality requirements of most widely used steel grades!

    According to modern standards, for many high-quality (and armor) steels, less than 0.01% phosphorus and sulfur are permissible, and for many critical applications, since the mid-70s of the 20th century, less than 0.004% sulfur and phosphorus have been required.

    In particular, for German steel X70, the impact strength values ​​at 20 C with a sulfur content of 0.05% are three times less than at 0.01% sulfur and four times less than at 0.003% sulfur.

    For German steel type 30NiCrMoV14.5 in the form of thick sheets with a thickness of 178-271mm, the impact strength at 20C and with a sulfur content of 0.045% sulfur is more than 2 times less than after removing sulfur to less than 0.01%.

    Those. If someone had been able to smelt armor steel then at the beginning of the 20th century with a sulfur and phosphorus content of less than 0.01% or lower, then they would have been very pleasantly surprised by the sharp improvement in its armor toughness!


    But in Russia there are quite significant (one might even say huge) deposits of iron ores that are quite pure in both phosphorus and sulfur!

    As well as huge reserves of wood fuel suitable for the production of blast furnace charcoal.

    All this could well be used to smelt especially high-quality steels.
    This is exactly what the Swedes did in reality!

    Ural puddling iron had approximately the following composition:

    C = 0,1-0,2%; MP - traces; P = 0,01-0,02%; S = 0,004-0,006%; Si =0,1%; slag = 0,2-1%; the rest is iron.

    Those. it in itself could be used as scrap for smelting armor steels in acidic open hearths using the silicon-reducing technology of V.I. Tyzhnov with self-deoxidation with silicon and manganese, because it was somehow difficult to use deoxidation with aluminum or silico-calcium back then!
    1. 0
      11 March 2024 08: 31
      Thanks for these posts. The scale of the problems is clear. I myself studied materials science with an emphasis on other alloys. Yes, I forgot)))). And all this can only be sorted out by science. What happened to science in the Republic of Ingushetia? Was. But somehow not very much.
      And Krylov also wrote about the smelting of steel with charcoal. Not the one who is the grandfather, but also with a beard. The steel was good for armor. Here our technical backwardness was a plus.
  27. +1
    3 March 2024 20: 30
    One thing is confusing about all this. For small and medium caliber artillery, armor penetration is calculated based on the percentage of shells that passed through but did not penetrate the armor. The British, if I’m not mistaken, relied on 50% of the shells that penetrated armor, while ours seems to be 80%. Therefore, the data for armor penetration under the same conditions differed significantly.
    It is also not written that penetration of armor is considered. This can be an anti-tank weapon or a full penetration while maintaining the integrity of the projectile cup and fuse.
    By the way, the illustration shows an extreme version of PTP. The back side of the armor was pierced, but the shell did not fit through the hole.
    For ship armor, it seems that some middle option was still being considered. This is when a shell flew inside, but in a very unsightly state and unsuitable for explosion.
    Unfortunately, this information is not in the article.
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 22: 26
      Quote: Grossvater
      It is also not written that penetration of armor is considered.

      Well, I wrote more about all this earlier here https://topwar.ru/236149-trudnyj-put-k-sovershenstvu-ili-ob-jevoljucii-metodik-ispytanij-snarjadov-morskoj-artillerii-v-period-1886- 1914-gg.html
      but actually, the article directly says
      As mentioned above, the firing tests, on the basis of which the above conclusions were made, were carried out in the period 1901–1903. But we must not forget that the requirement that the projectile, while penetrating armor, remain intact was formulated later - only in 1905.
  28. -3
    4 March 2024 17: 14
    The author was so carried away by fascinating calculations that he became engaged in scholasticism and did not notice how he was referring to an outright mess. Some Berkalov took it and made a funny sign, obviously by calculation, because... it is, in principle, impossible to compose it differently; for greater importance, I wrote that these are experimental data and test conditions; I composed it.
    1. where did they get the plates of Krupp armor - such thicknesses? - I don’t remember something, for the ships of that time - 254 and 305 mm plates - and a plate with a thickness of 171.45 is, in general, an anecdote - or were the plates made specifically for testing?
    2 what kind of funny fastening of the plate is that? - Well, you fix the plate along the contour and shoot - no, you need a lining of 3 layers of half-inch sheets - and close to the armor - they won’t enhance the armor resistance of the sheet? - What’s the point of them? - Yes, and inspect the plate -from the back - they get in the way - remove the plate after each shot
    3 How can you get the results themselves? - let’s take, for example, a 229mm slab - the only possible testing process is to put a 220mm slab - punch it - then an endless process of shooting at the slabs, increasing their thickness by 1 mm? - well, we reached the final - 229 punched and 230 - no longer - so what? - don’t ruin the country with such tests? The very indication of pierced armor, accurate to the first digit - and in fact more, since the resulting tenths of a millimeter are also usually rounded to the whole value - what kind of error is a thousandth of a percent? - but it’s okay that the weight of the projectile, even in a batch, is different - the weight powder charge - also - the strength of the projectile also has tolerances, a funny assessment of penetration - the projectile will not be destroyed enough and, even if they stick out of the armor, they can stick out in different ways - you can show your nose a little - or you can fly completely - this alone requires the projectile to have the difference in speed is at least several tens of meters per second, i.e. errors accumulate over and over again and, eventually, disappear mysteriously.
    I was especially amused by the slab coefficient, which so delighted the author - apparently there are standard slabs - and of all thicknesses - what comes to mind? - and where are they carefully stored - in the “house of weights and measures”? laughing
    1. +1
      4 March 2024 18: 31
      Quote: Bone1
      2 what kind of funny fastening of the plate is that? - Well, you fix the plate along the contour and shoot - no, you need a lining of 3 layers of half-inch sheets - and close to the armor - they won’t enhance the armor resistance of the sheet? - What’s the point of them? - Yes, and inspect the plate -from the back - they get in the way - remove the plate after each shot

      Sometimes a section of the side with reinforcements was imitated behind the slab. Because if the plate is simply supported on a frame on a stand, when tested using a similar method, large spalls are formed on the back side of the armor plates in places of penetration, because behind the armor there is no wooden spacer for the elements of the ship's set (frames and stringers): if they are present, the projectile should to carry out not only a spall behind the armor, but also to destroy the jacket with the structural elements of the ship's hull; also, the presence of the jacket leads to a decrease in the deformation of the plate, which leads to a change in the path of movement of the projectile in the plate, its jamming and destruction in the plate.

      Quote: Bone1
      3 How can you get the results themselves? - let’s take, for example, a 229mm slab - the only possible testing process is to put a 220mm slab - punch it - then an endless process of shooting at the slabs, increasing their thickness by 1 mm? - well, we reached the final - 229 punched and 230 - no longer - so what? - don’t ruin the country with such tests?

      You are making unrealistic plans... (c)
      Rolling production at large thicknesses will not fit within tolerances of +/- 1 mm (or even +/- 5 mm). Actually, that’s why on the Project 23 bis battleship they didn’t go crazy with the main belt and made it the same thickness throughout.
      1. -2
        4 March 2024 18: 51
        A strange choice of points to answer and the answers themselves are funny - 1, therefore, the task during testing was not just to penetrate the armor, but also to damage the structures behind the armor - well, put the real skin of the ship with the kit - and this despite the fact that the test conditions did not require passing a projectile behind the armor. 2yes - there are always tolerances - which is what I was talking about - how do you propose to determine the thickness of the armor being penetrated? - and what follows is a rare pearl - for some reason “because” and some kind of 23rd project with a single thickness - the belt, in general, consists of plates -make them whatever you want laughing
        1. +1
          4 March 2024 19: 25
          Quote: Bone1
          Strange choice of answer points

          I answered those points that I considered necessary to answer.

          Quote: Bone1
          the answers themselves are funny

          As you wish...

          Quote: Bone1
          1, therefore, the task during testing was not just to penetrate the armor, but also to damage the structures behind the armor - well, put the real skin of the ship with the kit - and this despite the fact that the test conditions did not require the projectile to pass through the armor.

          I have described to you one of the possible reasons for installing a steel lining behind the slab being tested.

          Quote: Bone1
          2yes - there are always tolerances - which is what I was talking about - how do you propose to determine the thickness of the armor being penetrated?

          A step of half an inch, PMSM, will be quite enough...

          Quote: Bone1
          and what follows is a rare pearl - for some reason “because” and some kind of 23 project with a single thickness - a belt, in fact it consists of slabs - make them whatever you want

          Read A. Vasiliev’s book “Battleships of the “Soviet Union” type”, you will understand what I wrote about.
          1. -1
            4 March 2024 19: 27
            Answered-so-to be the last? lol
            1. +1
              4 March 2024 19: 47
              Quote: Bone1
              Answered-so-to be the last? lol

              Nothing is clear, but very interesting... :)
    2. +2
      4 March 2024 21: 28
      Quote: Bone1
      Some kind of Berkalov

      Yes Yes. Some Russian and Soviet scientist in the field of naval artillery, major general of the Russian imperial army, lieutenant general of the engineering and artillery service of the Soviet army, professor, doctor of technical sciences, full member of the Academy of Artillery Sciences.
      Whether it’s Konstantin. Whoever is an expert is an expert.
      Quote: Bone1
      took and made a funny sign, obviously by calculation, because... compose it differently

      For those who cannot read, I repeat
      Firstly, it was not Berkalov who counted, but the test site employees.
      Secondly, control shots were used to check the resistance of armor plates, which is mentioned in the test log.
      Quote: Bone1
      I don’t remember something, for the ships of that time - 254 and 305 mm plates

      Well, refresh your memory. How thick were the walls of the 305-mm gun turrets at Borodino? And 305 mm could well be produced in single copies, there were problems with the series.
      1. -4
        4 March 2024 22: 06
        You could have not answered something like this, it wouldn’t have been funny
        1. +1
          5 March 2024 08: 19
          Quote: Bone1
          You might as well not answer like that.

          Of course I could. But I don’t like ignorant comments on my articles. And I think it’s important to show other readers how illiterate they are
          Quote: Bone1
          and a slab with a thickness of 171.45 is, in general, a joke

          This is not a joke, but a slab 6 and three quarters of an inch thick
          1. -1
            5 March 2024 11: 55
            So far you are showing your rare illiteracy and extreme narrow-mindedness
      2. +1
        5 March 2024 16: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, refresh your memory. How thick were the walls of the 305-mm gun turrets at Borodino?

        You can also remember “Poltava” with its Krupp armored belt.
        On 28.10.96/254/2,44, at the Okhtinsky training ground, the control armor plate of the Poltava main belt, 4,27 mm thick and XNUMXxXNUMX m in size, was fired upon.
        © S. Suliga, S. Balakin. Poltava-class battleships.
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 16: 48
          Although it’s better not to remember “Poltava” - it was pure Krupp, without localization.
          But we can recall the “Potemkin”, the order for the armor of which in 1898 went to the Izhorians. And it definitely had 254 mm slabs.
        2. 0
          5 March 2024 17: 40
          Quote: Alexey RA
          You can also remember “Poltava” with its Krupp armored belt.

          True, but in the context of this discussion it is not worth it, because the belt for Poltava was made by the Germans hi What exactly are you writing about?
      3. +2
        6 March 2024 00: 28
        Andrey, for information, I’ll post a page from the case “On the establishment of armor production using the Krupp method in Russian state-owned factories.” The thickness of the armor produced is indicated.
        The plates were used to test projectiles. The 16-inch plate was pierced by a 12-inch shell.
        1. 0
          6 March 2024 10: 37
          My respect, Aleksey! hi
    3. +2
      5 March 2024 10: 23
      Quote: Bone1
      and the slab with a thickness of 171.45 is, in general, a joke - or were the slabs made specifically for testing?

      This is a joke for those who grew up with the metric system. smile
      - I need a part with a diameter of 14,2875 mm.
      - Yes, you're crazy, we can't work with such precision.
      - Oh, sorry, then make me a part with a diameter of 9/16 inches.
      - Yes, like two fingers!
      1. 0
        5 March 2024 11: 59
        It’s funny - you yourself understand what you are answering and what? - the question was not about a number with such a value - but for what ship was a slab of such thickness needed - and how many tests were needed - to select it - with such accuracy lol
        1. 0
          5 March 2024 12: 33
          Quote: Bone1
          the question was not about a number with such a value, but for which ship the plate was needed

          Where did you get the idea that it was needed for the ship? Plates were often made separately for testing, although, of course, those to be tested from samples of ship armor were also used.
          Quote: Bone1
          and how many tests were needed to select it with such accuracy

          Such a slab could be, for example, a banal “substandard” which it was decided not to dispose of, but to use in tests. This is an assumption, of course, but it is clearly closer to the truth than your thoughts on the topic that one of the leading specialists in the artillery of the Russian Empire and the USSR does not know how to count
          1. +1
            5 March 2024 15: 50
            The further you go, the funnier it is - you’re really amazed by the nonsense that you’re talking about - well, let them not take slabs from ships actually under construction for testing - there’s only one option - to make slabs exclusively for testing. To the elementary question, how many plates are needed in increments of thickness - to obtain the table values ​​- you answered - you can take substandard - a rare zigzag of consciousness - by the way, what is substandard armor plate - other than its inconsistency with the required armor resistance? And where did I accuse your “specialist” of not being able to count? - I actually wrote that the table was compiled by him, precisely according to calculations, and for greater importance, he explained them by tests
            RS, why did you get involved in my discussion with Alexey RA - he himself forgot how to write?
            1. -1
              5 March 2024 16: 42
              Quote: Bone1
              RS why did you get into my discussion?

              Am I going to ask you, or what?
              Quote: Bone1
              To the elementary question of how many slabs are needed in increments of thickness to obtain the table values, you answered

              You can walk in thicknesses anywhere, we have a free country. You were given an answer to the essence of the question - where could a 6,75-inch slab come from?
              Quote: Bone1
              you answered - you can take substandard - a rare zigzag of consciousness - by the way, what is substandard armor plate

              In this case, a slab of smaller thickness
              Quote: Bone1
              And where did I accuse your “specialist” of not being able to count? - I actually wrote that the table was compiled by him, precisely according to calculations, and for greater importance, he explained them by tests

              And he is so stupid that for some reason he took atypical slabs for calculations. I didn’t know, poor thing, that 6,75 plates are not standard for the fleet. That is, according to your speech, I was unable to take normal initial data.
              Actually your statement
              Quote: Bone1
              How can you get the results themselves? - Let’s take, for example, a 229mm slab - the only possible testing process is to install a 220mm slab - punch it - then an endless process of shooting at the slabs, increasing their thickness by 1 mm? - Well, we reached the final - 229 punched and 230 - no longer - so what? - don’t ruin the country with such tests? The very indication of pierced armor, accurate to the first digit - and in fact more, since the resulting tenths of a millimeter are also usually rounded to the whole value - what kind of error is a thousandth of a percent? - but it’s okay that the weight of the projectile, even in a batch, is different - the weight powder charge - also - the strength of the projectile also has tolerances, a funny assessment of penetration - the projectile will not be destroyed enough and, even if they stick out of the armor, they can stick out in different ways - you can show your nose a little - or you can fly completely - this alone requires the projectile to have the difference in speed is at least several tens of meters per second, i.e. errors accumulate over and over again and, eventually, disappear mysteriously.

              It is simply a rare game from a person who has no idea how tests are carried out and the durability of armor plates is determined
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 16: 48
                Are you stuck at 6,75? - Are you, in principle, able to understand the text? - Well, they posted part of my text - and where is your answer - is this slop?
                1. 0
                  5 March 2024 17: 38
                  Quote: Bone1
                  You are stuck at 6,75

                  Well, at least it dawned on you that you were doing something stupid
                  Quote: Bone1
                  and where is your answer

                  I can only forward your question to you.
                  Quote: Bone1
                  Are you basically able to understand the text?

                  What's in the phrase
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  rare game from a person who has no idea how tests are carried out and the durability of armor plates is determined

                  Don't you understand?
        2. 0
          5 March 2024 16: 46
          Quote: Bone1
          It’s funny - you yourself understand what you are answering and what? - the question was not about a number with such a value - but for what ship was a slab of such thickness needed - and how many tests were needed - to select it - with such accuracy lol

          PMSM, it could have been a 178 mm slab from the Potemkin order, rejected due to insufficient thickness.
          1. +1
            5 March 2024 17: 11
            An amazing guess - they made a mistake in the thickness of the slab and didn’t notice - they continued to heat treat it for months laughing -and if a shell had not penetrated this slab, would we have had to look in the trash for a slab of less thickness?
            1. -1
              5 March 2024 17: 34
              Quote: Bone1
              An amazing guess - they made a mistake in the thickness of the slab and didn’t notice - they continued to heat treat it for months

              Konstantin, you should go learn the materiel already. In those years, slabs were determined by weight, and if the workpiece was underweight (for any reason), even at the first stages of the process, it would still continue to be processed, at least for the needs of the same tests.
              1. 0
                5 March 2024 17: 51
                Do you continue to get involved in someone else’s discussion and talk about obvious nonsense? - well, naturally - they chose the slabs solely by weight and did not care about the dimensions and thickness - and when they thought of measuring - they wouldn’t waste the goodness - they continued the heat treatment - and suddenly, where will it come in handy? laughing
            2. 0
              11 March 2024 08: 36
              You just need to take and measure the thickness of the hot plate. Straight from the oven. Or in the oven. Can you tell me what?
  29. 0
    11 March 2024 18: 08
    We could use a battleship like Sevastopol right now! Coastal fortifications of dill in dust and drone are not scary.