Armor-piercing tips of naval shells 1893–1911

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Armor-piercing tips of naval shells 1893–1911

After talking about testing methods for domestic projectiles, let's move on to armor-piercing tips.

It is quite obvious that the armor-piercing qualities of projectiles are increased as a result of strengthening its body through the use of high-grade steel and special heat treatment. However, in the 19th century it became clear that there was another way to increase the effectiveness of overcoming armor.

The appearance of armor-piercing tips in the Russian Imperial Navy


In Russia, the idea of ​​an armor-piercing tip was conceived and proposed by Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov in the early 1890s. One can argue whether he was the discoverer, or whether such a tip was invented earlier somewhere else, but for the purposes of this article this is completely unimportant. But it is very important to understand that in those years the physics of the process of overcoming armor with a projectile was still completely unstudied. That is, it was clear that the tip made it possible to enhance the armor-piercing effect of the projectile, but no one understood why.

In Russia, at first they tried to explain the increase in armor penetration by the fact that the tip seemed to soften the stress upon impact, which helps maintain the integrity of the head of the projectile. Accordingly, the first experiments were carried out with armor-piercing tips made of soft metal. However, our gunsmiths, who considered the armor-piercing projectile to be the main weapons ships, did not stop there and experimented a lot with tips of different shapes, made of different metals. It turned out that hard steel tips provide projectiles with better armor penetration than “soft metal” ones.

The theory behind this fact was the following: the task of the tip is to destroy the cemented layer of armor, in which case it itself will collapse. But in this way the tip will pave the way for the projectile, moreover, its fragments will compress the head of the projectile, protecting it from destruction in the first moments of impact on the armor. Our gunsmiths came to this hypothesis based on the results of experimental firing, during which it was revealed that the armor-piercing tip of hard steel was almost always destroyed upon impact, and its fragments were usually found in front of the plate, and not behind it. In addition, this hypothesis well explained the fact that the armor-piercing tip was useful only for overcoming surface-hardened armor, and had no effect when firing at uncemented armor plates.

As I already wrote earlier, among domestic 12-inch shells, for the first time an armor-piercing tip appeared on 305-mm ammunition mod. 1900, but in fact such shells did not even make it in time for the Battle of Tsushima. Only part of the 152-mm shells of the ships of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky’s squadron had armor-piercing tips. And, unfortunately, the sources available to me do not answer the question of whether the first serial armor-piercing tips were “soft metal”, or whether hard steel tips immediately went into production.

Professor E.A. Berkalov in his work “Design of Naval Artillery Shells” indicates that in Russia they switched to tips made of durable steel, similar in quality to that from which the shells themselves were made very quickly and earlier than other powers . Alas, this is all I have at the moment.

As for the shape of the armor-piercing tip, it is in the Russian Imperial navy was adopted as pointed, that is, looking at the silhouette of the projectile from the side, an inexperienced person may not even understand that the projectile has a tip.


In this form, armor-piercing tips existed in the Russian Imperial Navy until the advent of projectiles mod. 1911, which we will return to a little later.

Armor-piercing tips in the US and foreign navies


Very interesting are the arguments of Mr. Cleland Davis, published in the United States Naval Institute magazine for 1897, regarding the state of affairs with armor-piercing caps in the USA. I will give the main postulates below.

The US Artillery Department experimented a lot with various types of armor-piercing caps (as in the translation of the article given by Naval Collection No. 1 for 1898), until it settled on one of the options, which was extended to all available shells. This cap was a cylindrical piece of mild steel, with a diameter of half the caliber of the projectile. In the lower part of the armor-piercing cap, a recess was made in the shape of the top of the projectile to a depth of 2/3 of its length - in fact, with this recess the cap was put on the projectile. In this case, a shallow recess of 0,03 inches (about 0,76 mm) was made on the inner surface of the cap adjacent to the projectile, which contained a lubricant.


Cleland Davis describes the tip as cylindrical, but in the picture we see a slightly different shape. However, if you look at photographs of American shells, the shape of the tip is really close to a cylinder and certainly does not look pointed.


It is interesting that, according to Cleland Davis, in the USA no one really understood how this tip works. According to the patent obtained by Mr. Johnson, the effect of the cap was that, covering the top of the projectile, it strengthens the projectile by increasing the resistance to its lateral deflection and longitudinal compression. Others thought that the whole point was that the armor-piercing cap acts as a kind of buffer between the projectile and the armor, weakening the impact upon impact on the projectile body - that is, the same version was in circulation as in Russia in relation to mild steel tips.

However, Cleland Davis considered both versions as not entirely reliable and was inclined to explain the effect of armor-piercing hard steel tips in Russia. Its essence was that such a tip makes a “hollow in the slab,” that is, it damages the cemented layer, thereby facilitating the passage of an armor-piercing projectile through the slab. At the same time, Cleland Davis believed that lubrication could play a significant role in helping the movement of the projectile in the armor.

In general, Cleland Davis gave the following conclusions based on the results of firing tests of armor-piercing tips:

1. A projectile equipped with a solid cap of the final shape, but without lubrication, turned out to be better than a projectile without a cap.

2. A tip in the form of a simple cylinder with thick walls has the same effect as a solid cap if both are used without lubrication.



3. A thin-walled cap with lubricant does not have any effect.

4. The best result is a thick-walled or solid tip made of mild steel with lubricant.

In general, the effect of the armor penetration of American armor-piercing caps is perfectly described by the following tables. The first of them demonstrates the speeds at which, according to the standards of the American Navy, shells of the specified caliber penetrate armor of one thickness or another. The second is the same thing, but with a cap, and the third is the comparative armor penetration of projectiles equipped and not equipped with armor-piercing caps, for different distances.






From the tables we see that, for example, when firing a 12-inch projectile at a 305 mm thick plate, the American soft metal tip made it possible to reduce the speed of the projectile on the armor by 8,37%.

Were our armor-piercing tips better than the American ones presented by IG Johnson?

Professor E.A. Berkalov points out that “in our shells, the projectiles are mod. 1911, as well as in most foreign shells, a pointed tip was used... In the German experimental shells by Krupp and the English by Hatfield, a cylindrical tip was used, which, according to information, gave an advantage over the pointed tip, apparently due to the larger area of ​​​​work of the tip in moment of impact. But a projectile with such a tip receives a shape that is not satisfactory in ballistic terms and in actual conditions, due to the greater loss of speed by the projectile during flight, it may turn out to be worse than a pointed one.”

However, it is necessary to take into account that in the domestic fleet, test firing was carried out exclusively at normal range. At the same time, “experiments in shooting at armor at angles showed the undoubted advantage of flat-cut tips, both foreign and our shells switched to such tips” (E. A. Berkalov).

Armor-piercing tips arr. 1911


Having realized the advantages of flat-cut tips, domestic artillery specialists began to look for a method that would neutralize their disadvantages. The answer was found quickly enough - in the form of a ballistic tip. Simply put, armor-piercing 305-mm shells mod. 1911 were equipped with two tips - an armor-piercing flat-cut one, attached to the head of the projectile, and a ballistic tip, which was attached to the armor-piercing one and ensured the preservation of favorable ballistic qualities.

However, the first ballistic tips made of steel, showing excellent results when shooting at armor plates in the normal direction, did not allow them to penetrate armor at an angle of 25 degrees deviation from the normal. That is, it turned out that a projectile with a new armor-piercing tip, but without a ballistic tip, penetrated armor properly, while maintaining the integrity of the body, but with a steel ballistic tip did not penetrate the same armor plate at all.

Such a discouraging result required additional research, during which they came to the use of extremely thin (1/8 inch or 3,17 mm) brass tips, which were used in projectiles mod. 1911. It was obvious that such a delicate structure could easily be damaged when overloading or repositioning shells. A solution was found in a simple fastening of the ballistic tip - it was simply screwed onto the armor-piercing one, and 10% of spare ballistic tips were sent to ships to replace damaged ones.

In general, the design of the tips for the 305-mm armor-piercing projectile mod. 1911 looked like this. The armor-piercing tip had the shape of a truncated cone with a height of 244 mm, the larger base of which had a diameter of about 305 mm, and the smaller one (the front cut, which, in fact, the tip hit the armor) - about 177 mm. This cone, on the side of the larger base, had a recess in the shape of the head of the projectile, which was attached to the projectile, while the very tip of the projectile almost reached the smaller base.

Along the edge of the smaller base of the cone there was a small recess with a thread into which a hollow brass ballistic tip with a height of 203,7 mm was screwed. The height of the void in the ballistic tip was thus 184,15 mm (7,25 in). The method of attaching the armor-piercing tip to the projectile was the same as the ballistic one - using a conical screw thread.


E. A. Berkalov especially notes that in increasing the area of ​​the front cut of the flat-cut tip, we went further than all known designs, which gave our armor-piercing tip a significant advantage over all the tips that existed at that time in the world.

At the same time, the professor specifically stipulates that it is possible to increase the area of ​​the front cut only to a certain limit, beyond which the need to thicken the walls of the ballistic tip, “put on” over the armor-piercing one, will negate the increase in armor penetration, as happened with the first versions of the steel tips described above.

Of course, the use of a thin brass ballistic tip also made it possible to increase the armor penetration of domestic projectiles, since the flat-cut tip no longer deteriorated the ballistic qualities of the projectile.

Similar tips appeared in other naval powers, but, as E. A. Berkalov points out, “foreign armor-piercing shells have an armor-piercing tip with a significantly smaller cutting area.” Still, it should be assumed that foreigners in this matter caught up to our level quite quickly, as is hinted at by the drawings of the German 305-mm projectile from the First World War era: however, the study of this issue is beyond the scope of this article.


It is noteworthy that the German tip has a significant difference - instead of a flat-cut shape, we see a cone-shaped recess. E. A. Berkalov found it difficult to characterize its usefulness, which could only be confirmed by conducting numerous experiments comparing this form of tips with ours.

One can, however, assume that the optimal shape was neither one nor the other, but rather intermediate between the pointed Makarov tip and the flat-cut tip. In the “Album of Naval Artillery Shells” from 1979, we see such tips on armor-piercing projectiles mod. 1911 and 180-mm caliber shells, while in the 1934 album these same shells are equipped with conventional “flat-cut” tips.


It must be said that E. A. Berkalov, noting the obvious advantage of the combination of armor-piercing flat-cut and ballistic brass tips on projectiles mod. 1911, compared to other domestic and foreign products for a similar purpose, I was still not sure about the optimality of the “flat cut”. Therefore, it can be assumed that further research led to the determination of a more advanced form of armor-piercing tip. However, such an evolution of the tip occurred much later than the period we are studying, and is not related to the topic of this cycle.

The second significant difference between foreign armor-piercing tips and domestic ones was the method of attachment to the projectile. Ours were screwed on using a screw thread. Foreign ones were attached by pressing the tip into special recesses or into a circular ledge made in the head of the projectile.


E. A. Berkalov believes that the foreign method is better than the domestic one, but under one condition. Namely, if abroad it was possible to achieve a tight fit of the tip, because although when moving in the barrel bore and in flight, “our projectiles are protected from screwing together the tips, still when handling the projectiles one can assume the possibility of at least partial unscrewing, and therefore violation tightness and strength of fastening.”

The effectiveness of the armor-piercing tip of projectiles mod. 1911


Obviously, the effectiveness of an armor-piercing tip is determined by the reduction in the speed of the projectile on the armor to penetrate it, in comparison with the same projectile not equipped with a tip. Numerous domestic experiments have revealed that armor-piercing tips arr. 1911... they love everything big. That is, the greater the caliber of the projectile and the armor plate being penetrated, the higher the effectiveness of such a tip. E. A. Berkalov gives a reduction in speed for projectiles with tips of different calibers when firing at a 305 mm plate:

1. For a 203 mm projectile – 7,25%.

2. For a 254 mm projectile – 11,75%.

3. For a 305 mm projectile – 13,25%.


Unfortunately, E. A. Berkalov does not provide similar data on the armor penetration of the “Makarov” tip. In the future, after analyzing the results of firing domestic projectiles with tips of this type, I will try to find the answer to this question myself.

It is not possible to evaluate the effectiveness of American (IG Johnson) and domestic (pointed “Makarovsky”) tips when a projectile hits the plate at an angle other than 90 degrees.

On the one hand, with the same projectile speed on the armor, a flat-cut tip shows a noticeably better result than a pointed one.

But on the other hand, due to worse ballistics, a projectile with a flat-cut tip will not produce the same projectile velocity on armor as a projectile with a pointed tip fired from the same gun.

To be continued ...
55 comments
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  1. +3
    22 February 2024 04: 51
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the excellent article!

    Cleland Davis describes the tip as cylindrical, but in the picture we see a slightly different shape. However, if you look at photographs of American shells, the shape of the tip is really close to a cylinder and certainly does not look pointed

    Definitely, the cap has a cylindrical shape with a small bulge at the end. It may be added that the Fleet Ordnance Department conducted many experiments with various cap shapes, and it was experimentally found that the cylindrical cap shape gave the best results. It was recommended to use such caps for standard projectiles. The cap was a cylinder made of mild steel, half the diameter of the projectile, for installation on the last one drilled to a depth of two-thirds of its length. On the inner surface of the cap there was a cavity containing lubricant. Cavity depth - 0,03''
  2. +5
    22 February 2024 05: 11
    Thank you Andrey, I was especially pleased with the words “to be continued».
    Good morning everyone!
  3. -1
    22 February 2024 06: 06
    The author has finally figured out the difference between an armor-piercing tip and a ballistic one. The good news is that there is progress!
  4. -1
    22 February 2024 06: 57
    Question: the Johnson tip from the patent and the tips of the projectiles in the “mesh” in the photo, are they the same thing or different?
  5. +6
    22 February 2024 08: 19
    Thank you very much, interesting and informative. The opinion of the respected Decembrist would be interesting.
  6. +2
    22 February 2024 14: 12
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the continuation and your article and Alexey’s are very interesting, but comments will not come much later.
  7. +2
    22 February 2024 17: 30
    As always, interesting and informative. Respect and respect.
  8. +1
    22 February 2024 18: 56
    Greetings, dear namesake hi
    Plus it's worth it in the morning. There is nothing to comment yet. But interesting. Looking forward to the continuation! good drinks
  9. +1
    22 February 2024 19: 50
    Obviously, the effectiveness of an armor-piercing tip is determined by the reduction in the speed of the projectile on the armor to penetrate it, in comparison with the same projectile not equipped with a tip. Numerous domestic experiments have revealed that armor-piercing tips arr. 1911... they love everything big. That is, the greater the caliber of the projectile and the armor plate being penetrated, the higher the effectiveness of such a tip.

    To be honest, I am confused by the dates, what they arrived at in Russia in 1911, in France they determined it in 1909, and in 1910 they adopted a new type of projectile. In addition, they noted that the creation of an effective armor-piercing projectile, with an increased amount of explosives, is only possible by increasing the caliber of the gun. Therefore, the 1911 and 12-inch guns with a “stretch” fit into the world system of development of guns and shells.
    1. +1
      22 February 2024 21: 18
      Good evening, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      Therefore, the 1911 and 12-inch guns with a “stretch” fit into the world system of development of guns and shells.

      To be honest, I didn’t understand your idea. Why?
      1. +1
        22 February 2024 21: 48
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        To be honest, I didn’t understand your idea. Why?

        Judge for yourself, by 1910 the battle distance was determined to be 10000 meters; according to not only the French, at this distance a 305 mm armor-piercing projectile would have little chance of penetrating 250 mm armor. This requires an increase in the caliber of the gun and, as a consequence, the weight of the projectile. The battle between German and English battle cruisers is not suitable, this applies to battleships. The increase in distances during WWI basically confirms this. German battleships with 305 mm guns did not have much of a chance in the Battle of Jutland. Although there is an exception to the rule, Tsushima.
        1. 0
          23 February 2024 00: 00
          Quote: 27091965i
          at this distance, a 305 mm armor-piercing projectile will have little chance of penetrating 250 mm armor.

          But why? This is only 55 cables, both our and German guns could reach 340 mm. Krupp to master.
          1. +1
            23 February 2024 09: 07
            Good morning.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But why? This is only 55 cables, both our and German guns could reach 340 mm. Krupp to master.

            You can’t handle it, theoretical calculations are a simulation of conditions; in battle, in order to penetrate armor of a certain thickness, the theoretical conditions must coincide with the real ones. Such coincidences do happen, but very rarely. The French 305 mm armor-piercing projectile of the 1909-1911 model, at a distance of 10000 meters, at an impact angle of 20 degrees, was supposed to penetrate 260 mm of armor. But should does not mean that it will break through; certain conditions must coincide. The French, after shelling the battleship Iéna, made an interesting conclusion. If a projectile will penetrate up to 10000 mm at a distance of 250 meters, then it is necessary to increase the amount of explosives to cause more damage behind the armor. This is what they did, increasing the amount of explosives from 2,6% to 3,6%, creating a “single” projectile that replaced the armor-piercing and high-explosive ones. In my opinion, a completely reasonable decision.
            1. +1
              23 February 2024 10: 30
              Quote: 27091965i
              You can’t handle it, theoretical calculations are a simulation of conditions; in battle, in order to penetrate armor of a certain thickness, the theoretical conditions must coincide with the real ones. Such coincidences do happen, but very rarely.

              No need at all :)))) For example, a German gun will penetrate the same 340 mm of armor with a deviation from the normal equal to the angle of incidence of the projectile, which is really close to ideal. But no one bothers you to take an angle of 20-25 degrees; the breakdown of the 305 mm will still be very significant. And what happens to breakdown in real conditions... Through this article I hope to greatly surprise you hi
              1. +1
                23 February 2024 10: 38
                Happy holiday to you.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And what happens to breakdown in real conditions... Through this article I hope to greatly surprise you

                I’ll read it with interest, but there are practically no examples for our 1911 shells, as well as for the French ones. hi
                1. 0
                  23 February 2024 11: 31
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  I’ll read it with interest, but there are practically no examples for our 1911 shells

                  Why? Shooting in 1920, the angle there was about 18 degrees offhand
                  1. -1
                    24 February 2024 12: 27
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Why? Shooting in 1920, the angle there was about 18 degrees offhand

                    The war has already ended; new developments have begun in other countries based on the experience of combat operations. We did not have such an opportunity, so we had to consider more the question of whether these shells would correspond to the new views. There was a “disarmament” and “reduction” of the fleet and it took many years to begin to revive it again.
  10. 0
    22 February 2024 22: 34
    Good evening. To be honest, I didn’t understand the last paragraph - how could a flat tip affect the speed of a projectile? If it was still wearing a ballistic weapon, which was already crushed upon impact with an obstacle, that is, an armored plate, and this is just a few centimeters. Unless it gets blown off in flight and the flat cap starts to slow down the projectile, I can’t imagine any other reason for the slowdown.
    1. 0
      23 February 2024 00: 01
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      how a flat tip could affect the speed of a projectile

      With its suboptimal form, of course. There were no ballistic tips; they appeared later.
      1. 0
        23 February 2024 14: 21
        It’s not even the non-optimality of the form that plays a role here. Because there were no wind tunnels then anyway. It is enough for them to be made differently at the factory. And the spread is guaranteed. Or the thread is cut slightly out of par or crookedly. What were those times like? There were no standard threads back then. There was also no system of admissions and landings. Anarchy.
        1. 0
          23 February 2024 17: 54
          Flat-cut mild steel armor-piercing tip projectiles without a ballistic tip are American Johnson cap armor-piercing projectiles. These are generally the world's first armor-piercing shells with an armor-piercing cap adopted by the world's fleets.

          The second photo in the article is:

          Unloading 12" (30.5 cm) shells from Texas. Detroit Publishing Company Collection Photograph as Library of Congress Photograph ID LC-D4-21011.

          USS Texas is a battleship built in 1895. The photo was taken between 1895 and 1901.

          Created / Published [between 1895 and 1901]

          Johnson's armor-piercing caps were not attached with threads. In tests in 1894, the fastening was with three short screws. In mass production, apparently as in the 1897 patent.

          Aerodynamics left much to be desired. Apparently this is why Johnson's caps did not last long in service. The photo below shows a prototype projectile with a cast body and Johnson cap from testing in 1994.

          https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1894/january/johnson-cast-steel-armor-piercing-shot
          1. 0
            24 February 2024 15: 22
            USS Texas is a battleship built in 1895. The photo was taken between 1895 and 1901.

            The dates on the photos are 02.10.11/10/1911. This is, a few days before decommissioning on October XNUMX, XNUMX.
            Not only this is strange, but also the fact that Texas was called, at that time it was already “San Marcos”.
            1. 0
              26 February 2024 21: 30
              Quote: Jura 27
              The dates on the photos are 02.10.11/10/1911. This is, a few days before decommissioning on October XNUMX, XNUMX.


              https://navsource.org/archives/01/lc_texas_det.html

              By following the link you will see that the photograph LC-D4-21011 dates back to between 1895-1901. Same as the previous LC-D4-21010. Which apparently was made in 1910?

              After all, the “date” on it is not 021011 but 021010? :)
        2. 0
          25 February 2024 18: 14
          Quote: MCmaximus
          There was also no system of admissions and landings. Anarchy.

          Not really - there were calibers! request
          1. 0
            26 February 2024 11: 32
            Yes, I saw it on YouTube. There was a man walking around with a brace. The diameter of the trunk was measured. laughing
            1. 0
              26 February 2024 12: 30
              Quote: MCmaximus
              There was a man walking around with a brace. The diameter of the trunk was measured

              calibers are a little different hi I note that with the Mosin rifle it was possible to ensure the interchangeability of parts from 3 factories! feel
              1. 0
                26 February 2024 15: 14
                Calibers can be anything. laughing But the interchangeability of the rifle was not provided with drawings. And as under Peter the 1st.
              2. 0
                26 February 2024 15: 16
                There is a video about the release of guns on Armstrong. Such beauty!
      2. -1
        24 February 2024 06: 13
        It would be interesting to know the rationale for the minus. Does anyone even know the technology for producing these caps? How could they be made in those days?
        Rolled lathe? The most accurate way. I do not believe. Was there even a brass circle back then?
        Thread casting? Casting a workpiece and turning it? Is the lathe on both sides or one?
        And the very last thing - pressure from the sheet. There are many options. And the thread also needs to be cut. It's not clear which one.
        And so. In the most aerodynamically important place we have some difference in the shape of the caps. Or, in addition, we have differences in thickness and thickness defects together.
        But the projectile does not rotate along its axis. And along a slightly deviated axis. And it is precisely the nose of the projectile that most closely describes the circle. If there is geometry and mass distribution there, it influences. The bad thing is not that it exists, but that it’s all different. Yes, the mass of the cap is minuscule compared to the projectile. But the projectile flies for a long time and makes many revolutions. And each projectile is different.
        And it’s not for nothing that good shells were expensive. Because people had to take all this into account when making them. But there is no need to cast the cast iron of the mind.
        When someone answers at least these questions, then let them downvote.
        The mere fact that there is a mention of an excessive number of caps that can be deformed says a lot. The sailor doesn't care. It turned around and went. In our practice, we only had a bunch of different caps on oxygen and nitrogen cylinders, made in different ways. Some did not screw onto some cylinders, but screwed onto others. Some were then unscrewed only with a pry bar. And this is with standardization at the end of the 20th century. Let me remind you: at the beginning of the 20th century there was NO standardization at all. There might not be two identical bolts in the mechanism.
        1. +2
          24 February 2024 11: 32
          Quote: MCmaximus
          Let me remind you: at the beginning of the 20th century there was NO standardization at all. There might not be two identical bolts in the mechanism.

          The British Whitworth standard was in force throughout the Empire from 1841
          Sellers carving (Franklin Institute System) has been adopted in the States since 1867
          The international thread standard was introduced by the Congress in Zurich in 1898.

          So the threads weren't that bad...
          1. 0
            26 February 2024 15: 09
            In Zurich. In 1898. And there is the metric system. I don’t know anything about Russia in this regard. Yes, and quite a few years have passed. This requires tools and screw cutting machines.
            But I remember about the gunsmith designer Simonov. As a boy he worked at a weaving factory. In the team that set up the machines. And that’s why he became so smart that he had to remember very well what he got out of where. Because you can’t screw it back in later. laughing
            I remember about left-hand threads on Ford cars. This is in the 30s here. So that screws/bolts for Fords can only be purchased from Ford. Of course, interchangeability had to be somehow maintained within each plant. But within the industry...
            Comrade Stalin even had to pass a law. And imprison engineers for non-compliance with standards.
            We still remember the echoes - GOST has the force of law! Although this is a law only in road safety.
            1. 0
              26 February 2024 18: 19
              Quote: MCmaximus
              In Zurich. In 1898. And there is the metric system. I don’t know anything about Russia in this regard. Yes, and quite a few years have passed. This requires tools and screw cutting machines.

              If you remember, the conversation began with attaching the caps of American shells....
              1. 0
                27 February 2024 05: 00
                About Russian shells. The level of development of American industry is more or less known. But about ours there is very little information.
                Yes, and I don't care about American shells. I clung to the caps of Russian shells. Caps that wrinkled and reduced the stability of the projectiles. Although people tried to explain this part.
                And the Americans... They came up with the system of admissions and landings. Moreover, later than at the time when the mentioned shells were made.
        2. +1
          24 February 2024 15: 27
          Does anyone even know the technology for producing these caps?

          Exactly, I don’t know, but perhaps they did it the same way as the cartridges. Cutting a thread was not high-tech for that time, but of course there were difficulties: the hardened surface of the projectile and thin copper.
          I gave you a plus sign to compensate for the minus.
        3. 0
          25 February 2024 18: 18
          Quote: MCmaximus
          There might not be two identical bolts in the mechanism.

          and even now they don’t exist - they’re all different, but within tolerance... request
          1. 0
            26 February 2024 15: 10
            Within the bolt/nut/thread they are the same.
            1. 0
              26 February 2024 16: 02
              Quote: MCmaximus
              Within the bolt/nut/thread they are the same.

              so within the limits or the same? feel
              1. 0
                27 February 2024 05: 04
                If we take, for example, any M8 bolt and M8 nut, then they are the same. And if you take an M8 nut to an M10 bolt, then they are not the same. Although they are made to the same standard. Something like this laughing laughing laughing
                Please do not mention thread fits. They'll spin anyway laughing
                1. 0
                  27 February 2024 15: 13
                  Quote: MCmaximus
                  Please do not mention thread seating

                  don't see the point feel
  11. +2
    24 February 2024 10: 46
    Thank you, Andrey, interesting article!
    By the way, the first English armor-piercing tips were almost identical in appearance to American caps.
  12. 0
    24 February 2024 18: 29
    Ignorant term - "armor-piercing tip" - does it penetrate itself?
    1. 0
      24 February 2024 19: 04
      Quote: Bone1
      Ignorant term - "armor-piercing tip" - does it penetrate itself?

      130 years ago many things were called strange...
    2. 0
      24 February 2024 19: 10
      Now, in the basis of the current GOST standards, the same thing can have interpretations. Not to mention the subjectivity of those who wrote these NDs. And this didn’t exist before. It’s clear what I’m talking about, so thanks for that
  13. 0
    24 February 2024 19: 50
    The author took as a base a meaningless American article - what do the given speeds correspond to - penetration of armor? - which one exactly? - what kind of armor is there - “surface-hardened”? - what does the presence of a lining have to do with it? - and what - all armor is from 3 up to 18 inches - the same quality about armor resistance? - and why do you need a 4" armor-piercing projectile? - by the way, how is the final velocity determined? About the caps - that’s also cool - “lubricant”!! - is it preserved when fired?
    1. -1
      25 February 2024 18: 21
      Quote: Bone1
      Is it saved when fired?

      when fired - all sorts of things, but when it hits the armor it turns into some version of graphite due to heat and pressure upon impact - which probably provides better armor penetration! Most likely this is something like surface hardening and carburization, in modern terms - the creation of a metastable phase! hi
    2. -1
      26 February 2024 17: 04
      Quote: Bone1
      The author took as a basis a meaningless American article

      Our ancestors did not consider it meaningless. Yeah, I don’t think so either
      Quote: Bone1
      does it correspond to the given speeds - penetration of armor? - which one exactly?

      Unknown. Perhaps - penetration, perhaps - penetration with the passage of the projectile as a whole.
      Quote: Bone1
      What kind of “surface-hardened” armor is there?

      Harvey. But, excuse me, what difference does it make to you what kind of armor is there? The difference in speed is important, illustrating the ability of the armor-piercing tip
      Quote: Bone1
      What does the presence of a lining have to do with it?

      For information
      Quote: Bone1
      and what, all armor from 3 to 18 inches is of the same quality about armor resistance?

      If you mean a decrease in durability when the slab thickness is over 300 mm, the Americans did not know this; their formula did not provide for a decrease in durability. But the tests were carried out precisely according to these values
      Quote: Bone1
      and why do you need a 4" armor-piercing projectile?

      We later decided that the 203 mm was not needed. "I wish I was as smart now as my wife was later..."
      Quote: Bone1
      By the way, how is the final speed determined?

      This is the speed of the projectile on the armor
      Quote: Bone1
      About the caps - that’s also cool - “lubricant”!! - is it preserved when fired?

      It is usually not outside, but inside the cap, or between it and the projectile
    3. 0
      27 February 2024 05: 08
      Let's take it as it is. Because if we mess around with the sameness of the metal and its heat treatment, we won’t get far. Plus or minus serial armor and the same shells. That's enough. Conducting an experiment according to all the rules of science means wasting the entire budget of the Navy.
      1. 0
        27 February 2024 11: 26
        Let’s say, the accuracy will be half-ceiling-finger, but that’s okay laughing
  14. 0
    25 February 2024 18: 09
    “On the edge of the smaller base of the cone there was a small recess with a thread, onto which a hollow brass ballistic tip with a height of 203,7 mm was screwed. The height of the void in the ballistic tip was thus 184,15 mm (7,25 dm). Method of attaching an armor-piercing tip to a projectile was the same as ballistic - with the help conical screw thread."
    the drawing of a Russian 12 dm projectile clearly shows that the ballistic tip is attached with a regular thread request , the armor-piercing thread is poorly drawn - possibly terminal.
    1. 0
      27 February 2024 05: 10
      They could have drawn it in such a way that we can’t make it out now. Who did the sketch? The description is most likely more correct.
      1. 0
        27 February 2024 07: 20
        The description was made by a professor, one of the country's leading figures in the development of naval shells. And the sketch is a drawing from the Album of naval artillery shells of 1978.
        1. 0
          27 February 2024 16: 02
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The description was made by the professor

          you have a reverence for scientific titles, everyone makes mistakes... hi
          if the sketch was made from a drawing, then it is difficult to confuse the thread design - and purely technically, on an armor-piercing tip it is easier to cut a regular thread for attaching a ballistic one, this is not a projectile that has a cone at the point where the first is attached... request
  15. 0
    27 February 2024 17: 31
    Hello, thanks for the interesting articles!
    Is it possible to get acquainted with the works of E. A. Berkalov in electronic form (pdf or at least photos) or just look somewhere in libraries? A superficial search by name yielded no results.
    1. 0
      28 February 2024 08: 45
      Good afternoon, unfortunately, there is no such possibility, since this is a rarity that is generally not clear where to look. I received it from a respected historian under a promise not to transfer this material to third parties and not to publish screenshots from it. Of course, I have the right to refer to it, and also to use the information, but, alas, I don’t have the right to use the information.
      1. 0
        28 February 2024 12: 49
        It is a pity that your friend has such an irresponsible attitude towards the preservation of historical materials. I hope someday he comes to his senses.