Unknown aircraft machine gun Degtyarev

155
Unknown aircraft machine gun Degtyarev

In the comments to the publication “Service and combat use of captured German machine guns after the end of World War II” one of the regular visitors to the Military Review website asked me to tell you in more detail about the Soviet aircraft machine gun YES, and I promised to do so. Aviation Degtyarev's machine gun, of course, is known to aviation enthusiasts and military experts stories, but the general reader is not so familiar with it.

The creation of the YES aircraft machine gun, the prerequisites for its appearance and design features


After the end of the Civil War in the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Air Force navy there was a huge variety of aircraft machine guns for various ammunition. Soviet combat aircraft at that time used machine guns: Lewis, Vickers, Hotchkiss and Colt.



In the 1920s, the outstanding domestic gunsmith V. G. Fedorov and his assistant and student V. A. Degtyarev, as part of the small arms unification program weapons On the basis of one model in the mid-1920s, work was carried out to create a single machine gun complex chambered for the Japanese 6,5x50 SR cartridge.


Single 6,5 mm Fedorov-Degtyarev machine gun on an anti-aircraft rack

In addition to samples intended for use in infantry and armored vehicles, the tandem of designers carried out work on the creation of aircraft machine guns, and also designed twin and triple installations.


6,5 mm triple aircraft machine gun Fedorov-Degtyarev

For a number of reasons, including due to the use of an insufficiently powerful Japanese cartridge, the Fedorov-Degtyarev machine gun complex was not accepted for service. But the experience gained and some developments subsequently found practical application in other samples. Thus, the DP light machine gun used the design of disk magazines developed for experimental 6,5 mm machine guns.

The DP machine gun is often criticized for its bulky and heavy disk magazine. But it was chosen after many experiments with sector magazines, tested on experimental 7,62 mm machine guns. In sector magazines, the flanges of the Mosin welt cartridge tended to cling to each other, which made such a power supply scheme unreliable.

After finalizing a number of experimental models, V. A. Degtyarev in the fall of 1926 introduced a light machine gun chambered for 7,62x54 R. The automatic machine gun worked by removing part of the powder gases through a side hole. The hole was made in the barrel wall at a distance of 185 mm from the muzzle. Long stroke gas piston. Open type gas chamber with pipe. The piston rod, rigidly connected to the bolt frame, and the return spring, mounted on the rod, were placed under the barrel in the guide tube.

A gas piston screwed onto the front end of the rod fixed the return spring. Using a pipe regulator having two gas outlet holes with a diameter of 3 and 4 millimeters, the amount of discharged powder gases was adjusted.

The barrel bore was locked using a pair of lugs mounted on the sides of the bolt on hinges and moved apart by the extended rear part of the firing pin. The trigger mechanism consisted of a trigger, a trigger lever with a sear, and an automatic safety. The trigger was supported by a safety at the rear. To turn it off, you need to completely cover the neck of the butt with your palm. The fire mode is continuous only.

Due to the fact that the machine gun was originally designed for intense burst fire and significant heating, the shot was fired from the rear sear or, in other words, from an open bolt. The bolt carrier with the bolt was in the rear position before the first shot, held by the sear. When the trigger was pressed, the trigger lever dropped, the bolt frame broke off the sear and moved forward, pushing the bolt and firing pin with its vertical stand.

The bolt captured the cartridge from the receiver and sent it into the chamber, resting against the stump of the barrel. During further movement of the bolt frame, the firing pin moved the lugs apart with its widened part, the supporting planes of the lugs entered the lugs of the receiver.

After locking, the firing pin and bolt frame continued to move forward for another 8 mm, the firing pin reached the cartridge primer, breaking it and firing. After the bullet passed through the gas outlet holes, the powder gases that entered through the gas outlet holes acted on the piston, which covered the chamber with its bell, and threw back the bolt frame.

Then the firing pin passed through the frame approximately 8 mm, released the lugs, and the lugs were brought together by the bevels of the frame's figured recess, then the barrel bore was unlocked, the bolt was picked up by the bolt frame and pulled back. In this case, the ejector removed the spent cartridge case, which, hitting the firing pin, was thrown out through the receiver window in the lower part.

After this, the bolt frame hit the trigger frame and moved forward under the action of the return spring. If at this moment the trigger was pressed, the automation cycle was repeated. If the trigger was released, the bolt frame stood on the sear with its cocking mechanism, stopping in the rear position.

The magazine, mounted on top of the receiver, consisted of a pair of disks and a spring. The cartridges in the store were placed along a radius with the toe of the bullet towards the center. By the force of a snail-shaped spiral spring, which twisted when the magazine was loaded, the upper disk rotated relative to the lower one, while cartridges were fed to the receiver window.

It was initially assumed that the power system would have 50 rounds, and in order to maintain the dimensions of the finished disk magazine, designed for fifty 6,5 mm rounds, its capacity was reduced by one round.

But the magazine capacity was soon reduced to 47 rounds because the spring force was not enough to reliably feed the last rounds. However, during operation, due to the weakening of the feed spring, machine gunners at the front often did not fully equip the magazines.


Experienced Degtyarev light machine gun

After finishing development, two copies of the light machine gun were tested by the commission of the Artkom of the Artillery Directorate of the Red Army at the Kovrov plant on January 17–21, 1927. The machine guns were found to have passed the tests and were recommended for adoption after the defects were corrected. Without waiting for the results of the improvements, the Kovrov plant received an order for 100 machine guns, for which on March 26 Artcom approved the “Temporary Specifications for the acceptance of the Degtyarev light machine gun.” The customer signed the acceptance certificate for the entire batch on January 3, 1928.

In 1928, the machine gun passed military tests, as a result of which it received a flame arrester and a modified gas chamber regulator pipe. At the end of 1928, the machine gun was put into service under the designation “7,62-mm light machine gun mod. 1927." or DP (“Degtyareva, infantry”). At the same time, they decided to curtail the serial production of the MT (Maxima-Tokarev) light machine gun.


Serial DP

It must be said that the DP was structurally very simple and consisted of 68 parts. For comparison: the American Browning M1922 BAR had 125 parts, and the Czech ZB-26 had 143 parts.

Even before the DP was adopted, the designer began work on designing samples intended for use on armored vehicles and aviation.

Field tests of the aviation version of the Degtyarev machine gun took place from December 1927 to February 1928. In 1928, simultaneously with the PV-1 machine gun designed by A.V. Nadashkevich, created on the basis of the Maxim heavy machine gun and intended for use in offensive fixed installations, the DA turret aviation machine gun (Degtyareva, aviation) was adopted by the Red Army Air Force ).

In order to increase the practical rate of fire, the DA machine gun was equipped with a new disk magazine with an initial capacity of 65 rounds, in which the cartridges were arranged in three tiers. Later, for more reliable operation, its capacity was reduced to 63 rounds. The magazine was equipped with a belt handle on top, which made replacing it easier and faster.


For ease of aiming at fast-moving targets, the machine gun instead of a butt received a rear handle, a pistol grip and new sighting devices with a weather vane front sight that took into account the aircraft’s own speed, which made it possible to shoot more accurately. A faceplate was screwed to the front of the receiver. A kingpin was attached to its lower part, which had a curved swivel for installation on the turret. A sleeve with a ring sight was attached to the front top. Since the casing was removed and the faceplate was installed, changes were made to the fastening of the gas piston guide tube.

An unexpected problem when fine-tuning the aircraft machine gun was the collection of spent cartridges, which, scattering inside the aircraft, could create the preconditions for flight accidents. For a long time it was not possible to avoid spent cartridges becoming jammed in the neck of the collection bag when it was partially filled. It was possible to eliminate this drawback after studying high-speed filming frames by creating a profiled entrance to the bag corresponding to the trajectory of the cartridge cases.

At the time of its appearance, the DA machine gun, intended for use in defensive installations, was fully suitable for its purpose. It was quite light, which is important for use in aviation. The weight of the weapon without a magazine was 7,1 kg, with a loaded magazine - 11,5 kg. Length – 940 mm. Rate of fire – 600 rounds/min.

The ballistics of the DA corresponded to the infantry DP and tank DT. The initial speed of a “light” bullet with a steel core was 840 m/s. When firing at air targets, the most effective were cartridges with armor-piercing incendiary-tracer, armor-piercing incendiary and sighting-incendiary bullets. When repelling attacks from fast-moving fighters, targeted shooting was possible at a distance of up to 400 m.

The rate of production of the DA was quite high; as of March 30, 1930, Air Force units had 1 machine guns. Another 200 copies were being prepared for acceptance by military representatives. The rapid development of DA machine guns was facilitated by the interchangeability of parts with the DP machine gun, which was widespread among the troops.

Soon after the adoption of the DA machine gun, due to the increase in the flight speed of combat aircraft, the military announced the need to increase the rate of fire, and in 1930 the DA-2 twin turret unit entered service. To be fair, it must be said that the development of the DA-2 was ordered back in 1927.


DA-2 in the Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Signal Corps

On the twin, each machine gun had a front mounting coupling. The side bosses of the couplings were used for fixation on the installation, and the bottom bosses were used to hold the gas piston tube. The rear mounting of the machine guns on the installation were coupling bolts that passed through holes made in the rear bosses of the receiver. The machine guns were connected to the turret through a pin. The general trigger hook was installed on the pistol grip of the right machine gun in an additional trigger guard.

On the left machine gun, for ease of use, the safety box and bolt handle were moved to the left side, and a bracket for a weather vane front sight was installed on its barrel. Since the total recoil of coaxial machine guns became greater, active muzzle brakes were installed on the barrels. Later, a brake of this design was used on the 12,7 mm DShK machine gun. The unit was equipped with a chinrest, shoulder or chest rest.


The weight of the DA-2 with loaded magazines and front sight was 26 kg, length - 1 mm, width - 140 mm, distance between the axes of the barrel channels - 300 mm.

Service and combat use of aircraft machine guns DA and DA-2


In 1932, the DA-2 replaced the DA in production. In 1935, due to the advent of a much faster 7,62-mm ShKAS machine gun (firing rate up to 1 rounds/min), production of the DA-800 was discontinued. In total, the military received 2 DA machine guns and 12 DA-914 twin guns.


Twin machine gun mount DA-2 on Tur-6 turret

Single and coaxial machine guns were placed on the Tur-2, Tur-5 and Tur-6 turrets, located on the upper part of the aircraft fuselage, providing shelling of the upper hemisphere and allowing shooting from the sides downwards.

The structural basis of the turret consisted of two rings, while the fixed ring was attached to the fuselage. The shooter was located inside the rings, in the open air flow. An arc was hinged on the movable ring, in which a DA or DA-2 machine gun was mounted on a pivot.


The shooter controlled the weapon using muscle power. To facilitate the rotation of the turret in the horizontal plane, the movable ring was connected to a spring device that compensated for the effect of the aerodynamic moment. During vertical maneuvers, the shooter was helped by rubber shock absorbers, which relieved the weight of the arc with the weapon. However, with such a system, the shooter quickly got tired: rubber-spring compensators countered the effect of the air flow only at a strictly defined flight speed.

Until the end of the 2s, the DA and DA-1930 machine guns were actively used on the R-3 and R-5, R-6 reconnaissance aircraft, as well as on the TB-1 and TB-3 bombers. After the start of mass deliveries of ShKAS machine guns, they were first installed on new aircraft and gradually re-equipped those in service.

As of June 22, 1941, most of the DA, DA-2 and PV-1 suitable for further use were in warehouses. A certain number of DA and DA-2 aircraft machine guns remained in the troops, where they were mainly used for training purposes, and also protected the rear hemisphere of U-2 communications aircraft and R-5 reconnaissance bombers.


Defensive installation with a DA machine gun on a U-2 aircraft

After the attack by Nazi Germany, the use of Degtyarev machine guns in the Red Army Air Force continued, and primarily this concerned the relatively compact and lightweight YES. This machine gun could be quickly transferred from side to side for firing from the side windows of transport and passenger aircraft, and for which weapons powered from a disk magazine and not creating inconvenience with a hanging tape were well suited.

In the spring of 1942, a field two-seat modification of the Il-2 attack aircraft appeared, in which the rear hemisphere was protected by a shooter with a DA machine gun. The experienced Il-2bis attack aircraft with the BLUP-1 turret, which underwent combat tests on the Kalinin Front in the 6th GShAP from November 7 to December 9, 1942, had a very spacious and comfortable gunner’s cabin. Thanks to this, the shooter could additionally take the DA light machine gun into flight and fire through the side windows, repelling attacks from German fighters from the side, as well as fire at ground targets.


Il-2bis

The pilots and gunners liked the car. The radio operator's cabin was not only spacious, but also well protected. However, the Il-2bis was never put into serial production. The reason is a large number of design changes, and the bomb load of the Il-2bis was one third less than that of the single-seat Il-2.

In the initial period of the war, the Red Army experienced an acute shortage of anti-aircraft weapons designed to directly protect troops from German fighter-bombers, dive bombers and attack aircraft operating at low altitudes. This, in turn, led to unjustified losses and greatly complicated the organization of defense. Under the current conditions, it was decided to use obsolete aircraft machine guns in storage to create anti-aircraft machine gun installations.

The use of Degtyarev aircraft machine guns as anti-aircraft guns was facilitated by the fact that they were initially equipped with sights designed to fire at rapidly moving air targets, and had the appropriate controls.


DA-2 on an anti-aircraft tripod mod. 1928, designed by M. N. Kondakov

The conversion of DA and DA-2 machine guns into anti-aircraft guns was carried out in the front-line weapons workshops, and there was no single standard for such ZPU. DA machine guns, as a rule, were mounted on simple swivels, and twin DA-2s were mounted on more complex and stable turrets.


Anti-aircraft gun DA-2 with a balancing mechanism

Part of the DA-2 anti-aircraft installations was equipped with balancing mechanisms. Those that did not have such mechanisms were equipped with shoulder stops.


Despite the lack of a uniform standard and the semi-handicraft nature of the production of anti-aircraft turrets, in general it turned out to be a fairly effective and light weapon. A twin installation with two loaded magazines, mounted on a tripod machine, weighed half as much as the Maxim machine gun on an anti-aircraft machine mod. 1928 with twice the firepower. The relatively small magazine capacity compared to belt-fed anti-aircraft machine guns was partly compensated by the ability to quickly replace it.

In addition, the Degtyarev aircraft machine gun could easily digest standard rifle cartridges, and for trouble-free shooting from the ShKAS, a special cartridge with additional bullet fixation and an improved primer was required.

Despite the fact that at the final stage of the war the troops were largely saturated with domestic anti-aircraft heavy machine guns DShK and Browning M2 received under Lend-Lease, installations with DA and DA-2 machine guns remained in anti-aircraft units until the end of hostilities.

Anti-aircraft DA-2s enjoyed some popularity in the Finnish army. There were several dozen such anti-aircraft installations captured from the Red Army.


Finnish gunsmith with DA-2 anti-aircraft gun

The use of DA and DA-2 was facilitated by the fact that the standard cartridge in Finland was the Russian 7,62x54 R, and along with the Lahti-Saloranta M/26 light machine gun, the Finnish infantry very actively used Soviet DP. It is known that Degtyarev’s captured machine guns were modified, and they were equipped with an additional fuse and flame arrester of the Finnish type.

Comparison of the DA machine gun with foreign analogues


By the beginning of World War II, other countries also had many magazine-fed aircraft machine guns.

The closest in characteristics to the domestic YES is the Lewis machine gun, modified for use on aircraft.


Aviation machine gun Lewis Mk. III with 97 round disc

Without Lewis Mk. III weighed about 8 kg. The weight of the magazine with cartridges is 5,3 kg. The rate of fire of the aviation version is up to 850 rounds/min. The Lewis guns, which were in service in France, Italy and Japan, fired the standard British 0,303 (7,7 mm) cartridge.

By the second half of the 1930s, the Lewis Mk. III were used to a limited extent in aviation. The British sent most of their machine guns to warehouses. These weapons came into demand when it became clear that the British territorial defense units, hastily formed in anticipation of a German invasion, lacked anti-aircraft machine guns. As in the case of Soviet Degtyarev aircraft machine guns, several thousand Lewis guns were installed on anti-aircraft machines.

The Lewis was produced under license in Japan; the machine gun used in naval aviation was designated Type 92.


Japanese Type 92 aircraft machine gun

Without cartridges, the Japanese machine gun weighed 8,5 kg. Length – 980 mm. Rate of fire – 600 rounds/min.

Another aircraft machine gun with a disk magazine for 97 rounds attached to the top was the British Vickers Class K, produced from 1934 to 1939. In total, more than 100 thousand units were produced.


Vickers Class K aircraft machine gun on the turret of a Fairey Battle bomber

Without the disc, the Vickers Class K weighed 9,5 kg. Length – 1 mm. Rate of fire: 016–950 rounds/min.

The machine gun used automatic gas venting with a long stroke of a gas piston located under the barrel. It was possible to quickly replace the barrel. The Vickers Class K aircraft machine gun was equipped with a characteristically shaped vertical fire control handle with a trigger on the back of the receiver.

In 1940, Vickers Class K machine guns began to be transferred to air force ground units to guard airfields, where they were installed on various improvised anti-aircraft machines.


They were also used in single and twin installations by the British Navy and SAS commando units, where Vickers were mounted on SUVs and trucks.

In the early 1930s, the vz aircraft machine gun began to be produced in Czechoslovakia. 30, based on the English Vickers Mk. III. In order to provide the ability to feed from a tape and from a 50-round disk, the original sample underwent significant processing.


Czechoslovakian aircraft machine gun vz. 30 disk-fed in a light bomber defensive mount

Automation vz. 30 worked due to the short stroke of the barrel during recoil. Depending on the version, the weight of the machine gun was 11,4–11,95 kg. Length – 1 mm. The rate of fire with magazine feed is 033 rds/min, with belt feed – 950 rds/min.

Until 1938, the plant in Strakonice managed to assemble about 4 machine guns used in Czechoslovakia and exported. In particular, the party vz. 500 were sold to Greece. Taking into account the higher rate of fire than that of infantry models, some of the aircraft machine guns were used in ground-based anti-aircraft installations, which were intended to provide air defense for airfields.

In 1936, the MG machine gun officially entered service with the Luftwaffe. 15 (before adoption it had the index Rheinmetall T.6-200), designed on the basis of the MG light machine gun. 30, which in turn was descended from the S2-100, created in 1929 by the Swiss company Waffenfabrik Solothurn AG. In total, about 1940 machine guns were produced before 17.


7,92 mm aircraft turret machine gun MG. fifteen

Automatic machine gun MG. 15 worked on the principle of recoil of the barrel with its short stroke. The barrel bore was locked by turning the locking clutch. No MG ammo. 15 weighed 8,1 kg, length - 1 mm. Rate of fire: 090–900 rounds/min. A 1-round double drum magazine was used to feed the machine gun with cartridges.

After MG. 15 in defensive installations began to be replaced with faster-firing 7,92 mm MG. 81 and 13,2 mm MG. 131, a significant number of MG.15 turret machine guns remained in warehouses. Taking into account the fact that obsolete rifle-caliber aircraft machine guns with minimal modifications could be used to create anti-aircraft installations, they quickly found use. In fact, all that was required to do this was to install the machine gun body on a sufficiently long vertical stand with a hinge and ensure stability. The necessary sighting devices were available on the weapon.


Sometimes the security of German field airfields did not bother creating specialized anti-aircraft tripods, the manufacture of which required time and materials. In this case, the turret rack, dismantled from the aircraft, together with the machine gun, was driven into the end of a log dug vertically into the ground.

Thus, comparing the Soviet DA with its foreign classmates, we can state that other foreign models, especially those that appeared later, in most cases surpassed the domestic aircraft machine gun in rate of fire, which was important in air combat. In terms of weight and dimensions, all machine guns under consideration were approximately equivalent. At the same time, the Degtyarev machine gun had a fairly simple and durable design, which had a positive effect on reliability.
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  1. +6
    21 February 2024 04: 31
    Not the most famous and widespread model of Dyagterev, it was finally withdrawn from service shortly after the end of the war. At the same time, a very similar DT was in the army until the end of the 90s. Until the IS-3 was finally written off in fortified areas.
  2. +2
    21 February 2024 04: 44
    The DP machine gun is often criticized for its bulky and heavy disk magazine.
    And it was highly susceptible to deformation, so a rigid box for carrying magazines was extremely desirable for machine gunners, otherwise the reliability of operation would drop significantly. The three-row magazine was much better, but due to its height it required sophisticated sights.

    Also due to the use of an insufficiently powerful Japanese cartridge, the Fedorov-Degtyarev machine gun complex was not accepted for service.
    The domestic cartridge, due to domestic gunpowder, was even weaker than the original Japanese one.

    The article is interesting not so much because of YES, but because of comparisons with foreign models.
    1. +5
      21 February 2024 04: 46
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The article is interesting not so much because of YES, but because of comparisons with foreign models.

      In my opinion, the use of YES in anti-aircraft installations is also not poorly described.
      1. 0
        21 February 2024 05: 50
        Quote: Tucan
        In my opinion, the use of YES in anti-aircraft installations is also not poorly described.

        Well, in general, yes, I didn’t know about spring-rubber compensators. Apparently, with the turret open, aerodynamic compensation is not possible.
    2. -2
      21 February 2024 12: 03
      Where did you get this from? Give a link to the characteristics of the gunpowder... no link no nothing "Link to the studio, otherwise fffftopk!" (c) This is the law of normal discussions since the days of oh FidoNet!
      1. 0
        21 February 2024 12: 06
        Quote: zombirusrev
        Give a link to the characteristics of the gunpowder

        Do you understand anything about them? And if you do understand, then provide a revealing link.
  3. +3
    21 February 2024 09: 03
    I don’t understand why not use instead of such a sophisticated disk magazine, where the cartridges were arranged in three tiers, and also had such a complicated path to the chamber, and also were a delay when firing, and even some kind of left bag for collecting cartridges, which also caused problems, belt feed? It’s simple and cheap, and you can have much more ammunition, especially since the planes of that time were quite capable of this...
    1. +5
      21 February 2024 09: 19
      When belt feeding cartridges, is there no need to collect cartridges and belt links?
      1. -7
        21 February 2024 10: 25
        When belt feeding cartridges, is there no need to collect cartridges and belt links?


        It all depends on where the emission goes. And also sometimes there are alignment features, like on the wretched P-39.
        1. +4
          21 February 2024 11: 50
          Did the P-39 have a turret?
          1. -5
            21 February 2024 15: 16
            Did the P-39 have a turret?


            It had a rear alignment, so cartridges and links were not thrown away, but collected.
      2. +3
        21 February 2024 17: 52
        Quote: hohol95
        When belt feeding cartridges, is there no need to collect cartridges and belt links?

        With belt feeding of cartridges, the reliability of the weapon increases, which is especially important during combat...
        1. +3
          21 February 2024 18: 03
          However, the French did not think about this.
          They came up with their own "musketeer arquebuses... for combat aviation
          MAC 34 T (tourelle) - Turret, ammunition supply with detachable magazines for 100 rounds
          MAC 34 A (aile) - Wing mounted (fixed installation in the wing of an aircraft), ammunition supplied from disk magazines with 300 or 500 rounds.
          In 1939, a variant was developed with a machine gun belt ammunition system - MAC 1934 M39.
          And only by 1939 did the French aviation chiefs begin to suspect something...
          1. +3
            21 February 2024 19: 07
            Quote: hohol95
            However, the French did not think about this

            What part of the body did the French find themselves in in the summer of 1940? Can you remind me?
            1. +3
              21 February 2024 20: 10
              And in what part of the body did the British almost end up relying on two-seat fighters with 4 turrets in the rear of the plane?
              In the complete absence of weapons firing forward.
        2. +2
          22 February 2024 06: 40
          Quote: Luminman
          Quote: hohol95
          When belt feeding cartridges, is there no need to collect cartridges and belt links?

          With belt feeding of cartridges, the reliability of the weapon increases, which is especially important during combat...

          This is partly true, but delays when firing from belt-fed machine guns take longer and are more expensive to eliminate. So that's what it turns out to be.
    2. +7
      21 February 2024 09: 28
      Turret UB (universal Berezina)
      Number 4 - BAG for collecting cartridges and tape links...
    3. +6
      21 February 2024 09: 35
      Turret installation of the ShKAS machine gun.
      And then there is the "bag".
    4. +9
      21 February 2024 10: 23
      Quote: Luminman
      I don’t understand why not use instead of such a sophisticated disk magazine, where the cartridges were arranged in three tiers, and also had such a complicated path to the chamber, and also were a delay when firing, and even some kind of left bag for collecting cartridges, which also caused problems, belt feed? It’s simple and cheap, and you can have much more ammunition, especially since the planes of that time were quite capable of this...


      If you look at the foreign analogues of YES, which appeared at the same time as it, and even later, you will see that they also had store-bought food. This is largely due to the fact that a belt-fed machine gun of the same caliber gives greater weight and dimensions to the turret. It is for this reason that structurally similar MGs were produced in parallel in Germany. 15 and MG. 17, differing in power supply, and Czechoslovakia produced the vz.30 machine gun, which had mixed power supply. As for the bag for collecting cartridges, they couldn’t do without it on a belt-fed machine gun either.
      1. +5
        21 February 2024 14: 04
        Hello, Sergey!
        Regarding tape feeding, I will express my point of view. From the real bell tower we know that the ribbon should be metal and loose. In the late 30s, canvas was the norm for Maxim.
        The thing is, in principle, convenient, the technology has been proven, the only question is where to put the second number on the plane.
        In addition, with tape power, we also had a “plug”. If I'm not mistaken, the first serial light machine gun with a metal belt was the RP-46
        1. +10
          21 February 2024 14: 25
          In the late 30s, canvas was the norm for Maxim.

          In 1933, Degtyarev developed a version of the DA for metal scattered belt, the machine gun was called DAS. Rate of fire 1200 rounds per minute. But by that time ShKAS was already in existence and did not enter the DAS series. In the photo - DAS - Degtyarev aviation rapid-fire. By the way - really little known.
        2. +6
          21 February 2024 14: 36
          Aviation machine guns were equipped with alluvial steel tape.
          They bought it from the British and began producing it themselves.
      2. +3
        21 February 2024 18: 04
        Eh. It was necessary to insert the “French” MAS 1934 into the article.
        1. +2
          22 February 2024 10: 31
          Quote: hohol95
          Eh. It was necessary to insert the “French” MAS 1934 into the article.

          I agree! Yes But, frankly speaking, I forgot about him. request
      3. +3
        21 February 2024 19: 14
        Quote: Bongo
        .

        hi
        Did the central rod rest on the ground?
        1. +3
          22 February 2024 10: 30
          Quote: Mister X
          Did the central rod rest on the ground?

          No, it didn’t reach the ground.
          1. +1
            22 February 2024 14: 42
            Quote: Bongo
            No, he didn't reach the ground

            Then it really is a tripod)
            Otherwise I was already choosing a new term for Oprah’s 4 points laughing
    5. +3
      21 February 2024 11: 12
      If you remember in what years DA was produced, as well as the state of Soviet industry at that time, it turns out not simple and not cheap. The ShKAS and VYA links still retain their spring properties, the tapes for the MG too, and the connectors of the latter have not even rusted. In those years, the country could not afford such luxury.
    6. +7
      21 February 2024 16: 49
      Quote: Luminman
      I don’t understand why it shouldn’t be used instead of such a sophisticated disk magazine, where the cartridges were arranged in three tiers, and also had such a complicated path to the chamber, and also was a delay when firing, and even some kind of left bag for collecting cartridges, which also caused problems, belt feed?

      EMNIP, the problem was with the loose steel belt. Which appeared in the USSR for air machine guns only in the 30s.
      And the second reason is maximum unification with the serial product. Caused by traditional fears that after making too many changes to an already proven design (switching to tape power), the resulting product will either begin to fail or may turn out to be too complex for industry.

      By the way, an example of what can happen when switching to belt power is the 23 mm cannon and 12,7 mm Taubin machine gun, which never worked in the belt version.
      1. 0
        21 February 2024 19: 16
        Quote: Alexey RA
        after making too many changes to an already proven design (switching to tape power), the resulting product will either begin to fail

        Belt feeding is primitive nutrition when compared with store-bought food, and even with three-tier stacking. There should be the least number of failures in such a design. Like a revolver...

        Quote: Alexey RA
        12,7 mm Taubin machine gun, which never worked in the belt version

        It didn’t work solely because of its low survivability, and not because of the switch to the tape version. There was still a lot of bureaucratic stuff there...
        1. +1
          22 February 2024 10: 34
          Quote: Luminman
          Belt feeding is primitive nutrition when compared with store-bought food, and even with three-tier stacking.

          I wouldn't say that. There are many difficulties with the assembly of removing the cartridge from the belt.
        2. +6
          22 February 2024 11: 24
          Quote: Luminman
          It didn’t work solely because of its low survivability, and not because of the switch to the tape version.

          EMNIP, the main problem was precisely in converting the original sample from store-bought food to tape (Cuckoo-clock For some reason, the Air Force and aircraft designers did not like the 81-round MP-6 magazine with ejectable clips smile ). In general, this was Taubin’s signature style: make a more or less working experimental product for store-bought food, show it to the military so that they would admire the MGC, promise to convert it to belt power, get it accepted for service and included in the production plan - and halfway through, give up on modifications , carried away by the next idea. This happened with both MP-6 and AP-12,7.

          A few figures:
          Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks No. 2470-1100ss “On the program for the production of aviation weapons in 1941.” dated December 7, 1940, it was ordered to produce in 1941 7550 23-mm Taubin-Baburin cannons and 18200 12,7 Taubin-Baburin machine guns (almost 6 times more than Berezin machine guns). Including in the 1st quarter of the year, the NKAP was supposed to receive 436 serial working guns and 686 machine guns. And I received... semi-finished products.
          Moreover, for Taubin, the industry really gave the best possible - for example, at plant No. 74, a machine-tool workshop and part of the tool production were allocated for AP-12,7, and even TsKB-14 (KBP named after Shipunov) was involved in the development of the technical process for the series.

          The end is a little predictable... and after him the designer pulled in specialists from the Aviation Weapons Directorate of the Red Army Air Force, starting with Sakrier.
    7. +4
      21 February 2024 19: 51
      Quote: Luminman
      why not use such a fancy disk magazine instead?

      Even later, experiments with tape did not always lead to the adoption of samples for service.
      The photo shows a hanging container (LMG Pod) for 3 Stoner 63 machine guns with belt feed.
      Permanent defect: belt separation.
      The reason for its ruptures could be the vibration that arose during firing.
      1. +1
        21 February 2024 19: 54
        Quote: Mister X
        The cause of the tape ruptures could be the vibration that occurred during firing

        Well, this issue can be solved, for example, by installing a children's tape... P.S. Shaking can have an even more negative impact on a complex magazine structure...
      2. +2
        22 February 2024 10: 36
        I remember your wonderful series about Stoner machine guns. When will we finally get your next article?
        Quote: Mister X
        The reason for its ruptures could be the vibration that arose during firing.

        Rather, the fact is that there were sharp jerks when serving.
        1. +1
          22 February 2024 14: 40
          Quote: Bongo
          a wonderful series about Stoner machine guns

          feel
          Quote: Bongo
          When will we finally get your next article?

          Not soon, I'm afraid...
          The struggle for survival in a proud and independent republic takes up all my free time.

          I help sell a car, select an old lackey for construction, and fill the site with new products.
          In a dream I see 2 buckets of money)
  4. +5
    21 February 2024 09: 14
    Thank you for a wonderful post (another one)!
    But I would like to add a little information from Yuri Pasholok -
    But then it became clear that it was impossible to fully provide the B-3 tanks with tank guns. Therefore, we had to take forced measures. In 1933, a coaxial installation of two DA machine guns was developed. In total, they produced 610 (sometimes the figure is 620) tanks, of which a maximum of 190 were cannon. The rest had purely machine gun weapons."

    https://dzen.ru/a/ZVsSQWoZXlCyrBx-

    Also, machine gun turrets from BT-2 tanks were used as firing points on defensive lines in the Leningrad area.
  5. +3
    21 February 2024 09: 47
    Anti-aircraft gun DA-2 with a balancing mechanism

    Here I would like to correct the author a little. This is not a DA-2 anti-aircraft gun mount, it is an “improvisation” consisting of an armored mask for two 7,62 mm DT tank machine guns (DT-2 mount), which was installed on a 1928 model anti-aircraft machine gun mount designed by M.N. Kondakov and equipped with DA machine guns instead of DT machine guns. A number of BT-2 tanks were equipped with DT-2 installations due to a shortage of 37 mm guns. For anti-aircraft shooting, this installation is unsuitable, since the vertical guidance angles are from −25 to +22 degrees, horizontally (without turning the turret) - 6 degrees to the right, 8 degrees to the left. There is information that such “hybrids” were intended for installation in the embrasures of bunkers of URs. The photo shows a BT-2 tank with a DT-2 installation.
    1. +4
      21 February 2024 10: 08
      Were BT-2 tanks equipped with twin DT machine gun mounts?
      Or still YES.
      As they write in all books about tanks of the BT family.
      1. +3
        21 February 2024 14: 05
        Or still YES.
        As they write in all books about tanks of the BT family.

        Not in all, but in many, I agree. True, these books are all modern, in which there are often, to put it mildly, inaccuracies. Unfortunately, it was not possible to find an old photograph of the “machine gun” BT-2 with sufficient resolution to see whether the barrel is finned or not.
    2. +4
      21 February 2024 10: 26
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Here I would like to correct the author a little. This is not a DA-2 anti-aircraft gun, it’s an “improvisation” consisting of an armored mask for two 7,62 mm DT tank machine guns (DT-2 gun)

      Viktor Nikolaevich, with all due respect, but these are precisely late YES, as is clearly evidenced by the muzzle brakes on the barrels.
      1. +3
        21 February 2024 11: 54
        but these are precisely late YES, as is clearly evidenced by the muzzle brakes on the barrels.

        What did I write?
        equipped instead of DT machine guns with YES machine guns
  6. -9
    21 February 2024 10: 22
    Why is he unknown? Because the author only heard about him? Meanwhile, it was one of the most popular machine guns in aviation before it was supplanted by ShKAS.
    And there was also PV-1.
    1. +5
      21 February 2024 10: 29
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      Why is he unknown?

      Because most readers are not familiar with him.
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      Meanwhile, it was one of the most popular machine guns in aviation before it was supplanted by ShKAS.
      And there was also PV-1.

      Are you captain obvious, you didn’t read the article and only looked at the pictures?
      1. +6
        21 February 2024 10: 55
        Quote: Bongo
        Because most readers are not familiar with him.

        Thank you for the article! good Personally, I was interested, I didn’t know much about this machine gun. He is not often remembered in Russian literature.
        Quote: Bongo
        Are you captain obvious, you didn’t read the article and only looked at the pictures?

        The funny thing is that he is really a captain and flew an Mi-24. Vladimir knows a lot; if he weren’t such a grouch and a bore, he could be a respected and authoritative member of the forum.
      2. -8
        21 February 2024 11: 14
        Are you captain obvious, you didn’t read the article and only looked at the pictures?


        In this case, you are the captain of the obvious; calling one of the mass-produced weapons unknown is something you have to manage. lol
        And the BPSP teacher, just because the history of the creation of the DA did not note the fact that the PV-1 was in service, but it no longer met the requirements, will immediately send all the writings to the trash.
        1. +6
          21 February 2024 11: 24
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          In this case, you are the captain of the obvious; calling one of the mass-produced weapons unknown is something you have to manage.

          That’s right, for the modern mass reader YES for the most part - unknown.
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          And the BPSP teacher, just because the history of the creation of the DA did not note the fact that the PV-1 was in service, but it no longer met the requirements, will immediately send all the writings to the trash.

          Quote from this publication:
          In 1928, simultaneously with the PV-1 machine gun designed by A.V. Nadashkevich, created on the basis of the Maxim heavy machine gun and intended for use in offensive fixed installations, the DA turret aviation machine gun (Degtyareva, aviation) was adopted by the Red Army Air Force ).

          I look at the book and see a fig? wassat
          1. -8
            21 February 2024 11: 46
            I look at the book and see a fig?


            This is exactly what you need to look at books, and not pull quotes from the Internet and quickly put together an article.
            Then we ourselves would know more. lol
            For example:
            It is unlikely that you will surprise anyone these days with film footage showing the rapid movement of an object, many times slowed down by the all-powerful film camera. Several decades have passed since spectacular photographs of a bullet flying through a soap bubble circulated in the world press. Meanwhile, already in those days, super-high-speed filming was not just a method that made it possible to do entertaining film tricks that were of little use for practice. Promising possibilities for slowing down fast-moving processes attracted scientists and engineers who were solving pressing problems of the technology of that time.

            For gunsmiths, for example, the method clarified some of the patterns of bullet and projectile flight. The creator of the famous DP light machine gun, Vasily Alekseevich Degtyarev, owes it to high-speed filming... the choice of the optimal design of a bag for catching the casings of the DA aircraft machine gun.

            It is no coincidence that it was the cartridge case catcher that caused trouble for the designer - a device unusual even for seasoned gunsmiths. Any of them is perfectly familiar with all the problems associated with feeding a cartridge from the magazine into the chamber, removing the spent cartridge case and ejecting it in a certain direction.

            And suddenly it turns out that, mounted on an airplane, a machine gun should not scatter cartridges anywhere. Each of them, having rolled into the far corner of the cabin, is sometimes fraught with mortal danger: any piece of metal that ends up next to the rods, rockers, control system levers can jam them, depriving the pilots of any ability to control the flight.

            This means that all spent cartridges must be collected - and not after the flight, on the floor of the cockpit, but immediately, during the shooting. The first pancake came out lumpy. The cartridges kept getting stuck in the neck of the bag; it had to be shaken every now and then - burdensome for the shooter firing! A bag with rigid profiled frames of various shapes did not give the best results. The cartridges were stuck. It seemed that precisely because of this seemingly trivial problem, the excellent machine gun would never be installed on the plane. Filming helped overcome an unexpected obstacle.

            However, let’s give the floor to V. Fedorov: “The processing of the machine gun itself did not encounter any particular difficulties for V. Degtyarev, but the main difficulties emerged when designing the magazine and, as it may not seem strange, a special bag for catching cartridges... Its development did not succeed for a long time, but it worked jamming of spent cartridges in the neck of the bag, mostly from the cartridges jumping up when the bag is partially filled.In order to facilitate our work and help us, the UVVS Research Institute carried out very interesting work - filming the ejection of cartridges from a machine gun, and, by starting the film very slowly, it was possible to study the peculiar the path of the cartridges and gradually notice the reasons for the occurrence of cases of their jamming, and therefore eliminate them.” The result of the study is a specially profiled entrance to the bag corresponding to the trajectory of the cartridges.
            1. +7
              21 February 2024 13: 23
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              This is exactly what you need to look at books, and not pull quotes from the Internet and quickly put together an article.
              Then we ourselves would know more.

              Don't tell others what to do, and then you won't know where you should go.
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              In order to facilitate our work and help us, the UVVS Research Institute carried out a very interesting job - filming the ejection of cartridges from a machine gun, and, by starting the film very slowly, it was possible to study the peculiar path of the cartridges and gradually notice the reasons for the occurrence of cases of their jamming, and therefore eliminate them " The result of the study is a specially profiled entrance to the bag, corresponding to the trajectory of the cartridges.

              It seems that you have: “I read it here, I didn’t read it here, I wrapped the fish here.”
              The publication states in plain text:
              An unexpected problem when fine-tuning the aircraft machine gun was the collection of spent cartridges, which, scattering inside the aircraft, could create the preconditions for flight accidents. For a long time it was not possible to avoid spent cartridges becoming jammed in the neck of the collection bag when it was partially filled. It was possible to eliminate this drawback after studying high-speed filming frames by creating a profiled entrance to the bag corresponding to the trajectory of the cartridge cases.

              Are you at all adequate? No.
              1. -5
                21 February 2024 15: 22
                Are you at all adequate?


                And you? I specifically didn’t give a link to where the text came from. Meanwhile, this is a TM magazine from 1973.
                In other words, according to Degtyarev and the examples of his weapons of explanatory literature, a carriage and a small cart. Why create new articles, especially ones that are far from professional? Play with a broken phone?
                1. +5
                  21 February 2024 15: 33
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  And you? I specifically didn’t give a link to where the text came from. Meanwhile, this is a TM magazine from 1973.
                  In other words, according to Degtyarev and the examples of his weapons of explanatory literature, a carriage and a small cart. Why create new articles, especially ones that are far from professional? Play with a broken phone?

                  It feels like spring is already upon you! fool
                  For example, I read this article with pleasure, and it is, after all, much better than what many other authors write. If you are such a professional, maybe publish something on VO?
                  1. -5
                    21 February 2024 15: 47
                    It feels like spring is already upon you!


                    Or maybe on you?

                    For example, I read this article with pleasure, and it is, after all, much better than what many other authors write.


                    What about you, Prof. Are you not satisfied with literature?

                    If you are such a professional, maybe publish something on VO?


                    He is busy with another project, videos of which appear here periodically.
                    1. +6
                      21 February 2024 16: 00
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Or maybe on you?

                      Guano doesn't come out of me in the comments. You have a very noticeable personal dislike for the author. Did he take your wife away from you, or did he borrow money and not give it back?
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      than you prof. Are you not satisfied with literature?

                      The Youth Technique you mentioned? laughing
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      He is busy with another project, videos of which appear here periodically.

                      Well, if so, these are still unfounded statements. Before criticizing someone on VO, it’s a good idea to write something yourself. So far, I only see a tendency towards self-praise.
                      1. -1
                        21 February 2024 17: 51
                        Quote: Tucan
                        Well, if so, these are still unfounded statements. Before criticizing someone on VO, it’s a good idea to write something yourself. So far, I only see a tendency towards self-praise.

                        I confirm that there are articles and videos on YouTube. Yes
                      2. +1
                        22 February 2024 01: 53
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        I confirm that there are articles and videos on YouTube.

                        Does this give a reason to unfoundedly throw mud at others? This behavior very clearly demonstrates what a person is like. negative
                      3. -4
                        22 February 2024 08: 25
                        What do the articles demonstrate that do not correspond to reality?
                      4. +3
                        22 February 2024 08: 39
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        What do the articles demonstrate that do not correspond to reality?

                        What's wrong with this article?
                      5. -3
                        22 February 2024 08: 50
                        IN AND. LISOVOY wrote (Vovochka Rzhevsky).
                        Read his messages.
                      6. +3
                        22 February 2024 09: 02
                        What's this? What does this have to do with the YES machine gun?
                      7. -3
                        22 February 2024 09: 35
                        Quote: Tucan
                        What's this? What does this have to do with the YES machine gun?

                        Direct.
                      8. +2
                        22 February 2024 14: 00
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        Direct.

                        In which place? Please explain more clearly.
                      9. -1
                        22 February 2024 16: 59
                        Have you read Vovochka Rzhevsky's comments?
                      10. 0
                        22 February 2024 17: 00
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        Have you read Vovochka Rzhevsky's comments?

                        Should I know some leftist Vovochka?
                      11. -1
                        22 February 2024 17: 02
                        You don't have to know, but you can read it.
                      12. +1
                        22 February 2024 17: 03
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        You don't have to know, but you can read it.

                        Are you raving?
                      13. -1
                        22 February 2024 17: 06
                        And what is it?
                        You haven’t read what he writes, but you blame him for what he’s doing
                        guano in the comments
                        .
                      14. +1
                        22 February 2024 17: 18
                        Should I know that this is Vovochka? Between you and me, he’s a very strange and not entirely adequate type.
                      15. 0
                        22 February 2024 17: 46
                        His nickname is vovochkarzhevsky

                        It’s obvious that Vovochka.
                      16. 0
                        23 February 2024 01: 10
                        I don’t read into crappy nicknames.
                      17. -3
                        21 February 2024 23: 39
                        Guano doesn't come out of me in the comments. You have a very noticeable personal dislike for the author. Did he take your wife away from you, or did he borrow money and not give it back?


                        There is such a thing, I don’t like unprofessionalism. Nowadays there is a lot of inaccurate, distorted information on the Internet. When one rewrites from another without fully understanding what they are talking about and multiplying mistakes. I read what Sergei wrote about the Mi-24. wassat
                        In addition, even when working with documents, you can add up to three boxes, especially if you are far from the topic.
                        For example, the same Sergei said that the British rifle in Afghanistan turned out to be one of the effective means of fighting helicopters.
                        And yet, yes, it is often mentioned in documents as the reason for the loss.
                        But what really? Yes, the fact is that every helicopter unit had such rifles. Try to guess why.
                      18. +2
                        22 February 2024 09: 24
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        There is such a thing, I don’t like unprofessionalism

                        You may be right a million times, but if you spew a stream of foul-smelling substance at others, it will most likely not be understood by others. Unfortunately, your manner of communication does not inspire sympathy. Maybe it's worth thinking about this?
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        For example, the same Sergei said that the British rifle in Afghanistan turned out to be one of the effective means of fighting helicopters.

                        Did you just write it like that?
                      19. +2
                        22 February 2024 10: 54
                        Quote: Tucan
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        For example, the same Sergei said that the British rifle in Afghanistan turned out to be one of the effective means of fighting helicopters.

                        Did you just write it like that?

                        This is what was written:
                        During the fighting in the mountains, this reliable and powerful weapon, firing a heavy bullet, often showed better results than 7,62 and 5,45-mm machine guns. At distances up to 600 m, rifle bullets confidently pierced Soviet body armor. Cases of breaking through the side armor of Soviet armored personnel carriers were repeatedly recorded, they also posed a threat to helicopters.

                        Draw your own conclusions. hi
                        Quote: Tucan
                        You may be right a million times, but if you spew a stream of foul-smelling substance at others, it will most likely not be understood by others. Unfortunately, your manner of communication does not inspire sympathy. Maybe it's worth thinking about this?

                        I'm open to constructive criticism, and if a person communicates correctly and does not show outright inadequacy, then I always listen to him. But rudeness and condescending behavior makes interaction with such a character impossible. As it comes back, so will it respond.
                      20. +2
                        22 February 2024 13: 18
                        Quote: Bongo
                        This is what was written:
                        During the fighting in the mountains, this reliable and powerful weapon, firing a heavy bullet, often showed better results than 7,62 and 5,45-mm machine guns. At distances up to 600 m, rifle bullets confidently pierced Soviet body armor. Cases of breaking through the side armor of Soviet armored personnel carriers were repeatedly recorded, they also posed a threat to helicopters.

                        Somehow this doesn't really fit with this:
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        For example, the same Sergei said that the British rifle in Afghanistan turned out to be one of the effective means of fighting helicopters.

                        It turns out that the one who criticizes you is outright lying?
                      21. +3
                        22 February 2024 22: 24
                        "...
                        Gaining experience, the enemy shooters tried to knock out the crew with targeted fire: 44% of all losses in helicopter aviation were due to the death of the pilot from small arms. By 1982, the number of hits in the cockpit reached 74% of the total, with 42% of the bullets from the front coming from the unprotected glazing of the Mi-8. The "Bur" with an aiming range of up to 2600 m was no less dangerous than an automatic weapon. In March 1982, Senior Lieutenant Minin from the 339th Regiment, who was taking the wounded from Gardez, was hit in the face by a Boer bullet. He died in the air, the entire cabin was covered in blood, but the navigator managed to take control and take the helicopter away. Captain Alexandrov, who was walking as a wingman, was immediately wounded in the arm, and he turned over on landing. Everyone on board remained safe, and the “tagged” pilot, returning to duty, received a sniper’s bullet in the same place on his first flight! Major Kharitonov was saved in flight by the artificial horizon, in which a bullet lodged, heading straight for the head..."

                        Markovsky Victor

                        Hot skies of Afghanistan

                        Website “Military Literature” militera.lib.ru

                        Edition: Markovsky V. The hot sky of Afghanistan. - M.: "Technology - Youth", 2000

                        Book on the website: http://militera.lib.ru/h/markovsky/index.html

                        Book in one file: http://militera.lib.ru/h/0/one/markovsky.rar

                        Source: VAS (www.airwar.ru)

                        OCR: Shura Arhipov (2:5020/904.63); Edit: Wesha the Leopard

                        Additional processing: Hoaxer ([email protected])
                      22. +3
                        23 February 2024 01: 39
                        Quote: hohol95
                        The "Bur" with an aiming range of up to 2600 m was no less dangerous than an automatic weapon.

                        Apparently our unique helicopter pilot flew where there were no British rifles. request
            2. 0
              23 February 2024 08: 31
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              And suddenly it turns out that, mounted on an airplane, a machine gun should not scatter cartridges anywhere.

              It is interesting that they did not change the machine for this purpose - after all, a rigid sleeve outlet could be built into the machine.
        2. +3
          21 February 2024 11: 47
          Was the PV-1 used as a turret?
          Or was YES created as a wing or synchronized machine gun?
          Maybe you are confusing cold with hard?
          1. +3
            21 February 2024 13: 16
            Quote: hohol95
            Maybe you are confusing cold with hard?

            Alas, “Vova is a helicopter pilot,” aka “Shuravi” on an “eternal combat mission,” and he has armor against other people’s arguments. wassat
            1. +5
              21 February 2024 13: 22
              It happens.
              Sometimes I am also stubborn to the point of disgrace.
              And after the disgrace, I agree with any arguments...
              1. +5
                21 February 2024 13: 25
                Everyone can be wrong, but I have not noticed that your stubbornness has crossed the line of reason, and you do not distort the facts to suit your point of view.
                1. +6
                  21 February 2024 13: 32
                  And this is for you...
                  Just...
                  1. +6
                    21 February 2024 13: 53
                    Alexey, thank you very much! I'm very pleased! lol
          2. -3
            21 February 2024 15: 37
            Was the PV-1 used as a turret?
            Or was YES created as a wing or synchronized machine gun?
            Maybe you are confusing cold with hard?


            How was ShKAS, or UB, created? There has always been a requirement for unification in aviation. Because YES, this is a temporary measure, like PV-1, both ersatz. It was just that the PV-1, given its heredity, was difficult to stuff into the turrets that existed at that time. But the option of a pivot installation was envisaged. And since YES arrived in time, they refused. Then they used this development for anti-aircraft purposes.
            1. +3
              21 February 2024 17: 42
              ShKAS and UB were designed as universal.
              Synchronous, wing and turret.
              Many people strived for such universality, but not many succeeded.
              The French even had machine guns with drum magazines in the wings of their fighters.
              The British abandoned Vickers machine guns and switched to Browning machine guns. And only in the wings.
              At the fighters.
              1. +5
                21 February 2024 18: 58
                The French even had machine guns with drum magazines in the wings of their fighters.

                The French Darne aircraft machine gun, which they used until 1935, was belt-fed in all versions.
                The MAC 1935, which replaced it in 34, was originally drum-fed, but by 1939 the wing version was upgraded to belt-fed.
                1. +5
                  21 February 2024 19: 47
                  If the Darne was such a universal (turret, synchronized and even infantry) machine gun, then why did they decide to replace it with the MAS 1934?
                  1. +5
                    21 February 2024 22: 59
                    Why did they decide to replace it with MAS 1934?

                    Mitrailleuse Darne is a model dating back to 1919. Chambered in .303 British or 8x50mmR Lebel. By the mid-30s, these cartridges were already considered obsolete and the French switched to a new one - 7,5 x 54 mm MAS. The MAC 1934 machine gun was originally designed for this cartridge, and Darne adapted its old machine gun for the new cartridge. But the “conversion” Mitrailleuse Darne was inferior in performance characteristics and rate of fire to the new MAS 1934. Aviation therefore switched to MAC 1934, although naval aviation continued to use the Mitrailleuse Darne.
                    1. +5
                      21 February 2024 23: 04
                      And fortunately for us, the Finnish Morans 406 flew with MAS 1934 with tambourines.
                    2. 0
                      25 February 2024 22: 52
                      Mitrailleuse Darne is a model dating back to 1919.
                      Let me be curious -
                      In what year did the French Air Force adopt this Mitrailleuse?
                      1. +1
                        26 February 2024 00: 40
                        The French write that they accepted it in 1919. At first they were used as additional wing machine guns to synchronized Vickers on Dewoitine, Wibault, Gourdou-Leseurre and others fighters. I found a photo of Dewoitine D.1 with such machine guns.
                      2. +1
                        26 February 2024 06: 34
                        Everywhere they write about synchronous Vickers.
                        And this car has a different engine.
                        Maybe a prototype or experimental sample?
                      3. +1
                        26 February 2024 08: 50
                        https://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dewoitine_d-15.php
                      4. +1
                        26 February 2024 08: 52
                        https://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dewoitine_d-12.php
                      5. +1
                        26 February 2024 08: 59
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gourdou-Leseurre_GL.30
          3. -3
            21 February 2024 18: 04
            What difference does it make if it’s just a modification of the DP light machine gun.
            1. +3
              21 February 2024 18: 06
              Was there a choice of another model?
              Did the country's arms factories offer a huge selection of light, heavy, and aircraft machine guns?
              1. 0
                21 February 2024 18: 27
                Quote: hohol95
                Was there a choice of another model?

                They wrote to you above that for aviation this is an ersatz machine gun (and a universal machine gun in the USSR, for other branches of the military), a temporary measure before the ShKAS is adopted into service.
                So they installed the PV-1 as a synchronous one, YES as a turret one.
                The point is to install it as a synchronized one, if there is a Maxim - with a longer barrel and rate of fire.
                1. +3
                  21 February 2024 19: 38
                  When the PV-1 and DA were adopted, they were completely modern machine guns, comparable to foreign models of that time.
                  As soon as the industry established the production of loose metal tape, the PV-1 was immediately converted to this tape.
                  And the weapons design bureau was given the task of designing a new rifle-caliber aviation machine gun.
                  There were no ersatz PV-1 and DA.
                  1. 0
                    22 February 2024 08: 31
                    The same Darn machine gun has a higher rate of fire than the PV-1 and DA. hi
                    1. +3
                      22 February 2024 08: 46
                      This is a French machine gun.
                      He did not take part in the First World War.
                      Not supplied to Russia.
                      Domestic gunsmiths worked with the material they had.
                      And according to the technical assignments that they received from the military.
                      If the end result satisfied the military, then why “sprinkle ashes on your head”!
                      1. 0
                        22 February 2024 08: 47
                        And Degterev’s machine gun apparently took over. what
                      2. +3
                        22 February 2024 10: 04
                        If DA had been put into production in 1914, these machine guns would have taken part in WWI.
                        The Russian Empire did not produce specialized aviation small arms.
                      3. -2
                        22 February 2024 10: 15
                        And in Soviet Russia before ShKAS it was also not produced, but in France it was produced.
                        The USSR had ersatz, but France did not.
                        And the rate of fire is clear proof of this.
                      4. +3
                        22 February 2024 10: 52
                        Are aviation models of the Lewis machine gun also Ersatz for you?
                      5. +1
                        22 February 2024 10: 52
                        Are aviation models of the Lewis machine gun also Ersatz for you?
                      6. -3
                        22 February 2024 13: 37
                        And what does Lewis have to do with it, it didn’t work out with Darn, they took up another piece of hardware? laughing
                      7. +2
                        22 February 2024 14: 01
                        Darn...
                        The French danced with elephants and changed cartridges like crazy.
                        We replaced the belt-fed machine gun with a machine gun with a very interesting “tambourine”.
                        In the USSR, the cartridge remained “royal”.
                        Difficult for gunsmiths.
                        But they created PV-1, YES. Then ShKAS.
                        Then they switched to larger-caliber products - ShVAK and UB.
                        What domestic gunsmiths created was what the military used.
                        Aglitsa gunsmiths let their military down. And they were unable to create either aircraft or light machine guns that would satisfy the military.
                        And about the Darna machine gun - if it had arrived in the USSR, would Soviet industry have been able to adapt it to the Russian cartridge?
                      8. -1
                        22 February 2024 17: 01
                        “We Soviet people can handle everything in the world.”
                        If French aircraft engines were produced, then why not a machine gun?
                      9. +2
                        22 February 2024 17: 25
                        Why didn’t the French themselves convert this wonderful machine gun to a new cartridge?
                        Riddle ...
                        Would it work on a domestic cartridge?
                        You also need to know its technological features.
                        The Danish "Madsen" could not be reproduced.
                        Under our patron...
                      10. -3
                        22 February 2024 17: 53
                        They could also produce French caliber cartridges.
                      11. +3
                        22 February 2024 19: 44
                        Tell me HOW?
                        Was it easy to design weapons for it?
                        Why not immediately switch to 7,92x57 Mauser???
                        Why did the French decide to change their ownership?
                        The Germans didn't change...
                        The British didn't change...
                        The Americans didn't change...
                        The Russians did not change from poverty...
                        And the French decided to change the rifle/machine gun cartridge...
                        The Japanese decided to change in 1939, but produced both 6,5 and 7,7 mm cartridges...
                        Why?
                      12. 0
                        23 February 2024 02: 41
                        Can you tell me why the topic was changed? Yes
                      13. +3
                        23 February 2024 15: 57
                        Is there any basis for your indignation?
                      14. -2
                        23 February 2024 16: 14
                        As I understand it, you are trying to chat with other questions? lol
                      15. +3
                        23 February 2024 16: 38
                        Chat?
                        It is interesting.
                        You called YES - “just a modification of an infantry machine gun.”
                        Aren't the Lewis aircraft models conversions of an infantry machine gun?
                        You call PV-1 and DA "ersatz".
                        Osovanie?
                        There was a faster-firing Frenchman.
                        Was.
                        What about the British, American and German?
                        If the German MG-42 is faster-firing than ALL "handbrake" armies of the Anti-Hitler Coalition, then the BREN, BAR, DP-27 are ersatz light machine guns?
                        Do you want to prove that the first domestic aircraft machine guns were “ersatz crafts” -
                        write an article with justification!!!
                      16. 0
                        24 February 2024 07: 53
                        You started talking about Darn.
                        And they got what they wanted. hi
                      17. +2
                        24 February 2024 12: 59
                        In what year was Darn adopted by the French Air Force?
                        In 1919 or 1934?
                      18. -2
                        24 February 2024 14: 36
                        What difference does it make if this has nothing to do with the USSR?
                      19. +2
                        24 February 2024 16: 21
                        It has.
                        You consider PV-1 and DA to be “ersatz”.
                        And it turns out they were put into service before the “excellent Frenchman”. Which was “sharpened with a file” from 1919 to 1934.
                        And Darn's wing mounts used 100 or 200 round DRUMs.
                        Why not tape?
                        So it turns out that the French military was not very happy with this machine gun until 1934.
                        Maybe his low reliability scared them?
                      20. 0
                        25 February 2024 08: 44
                        In the USSR, they were ersatz; the point is to drag in someone else’s military industry here.
                      21. +2
                        25 February 2024 12: 49
                        Stay true to your opinion!
                        I will stay where I belong!
  7. +2
    21 February 2024 11: 00
    Unknown aircraft machine gun Degtyarev
    And “unknown” for whom? Also, his siblings DT and DP should also be counted among the “unknowns”...
    He is not unknown, but forgotten.
    1. +7
      21 February 2024 11: 26
      Quote: svp67
      Unknown aircraft machine gun Degtyarev
      And “unknown” for whom? Also, his siblings DT and DP should also be counted among the “unknowns”...
      He is not unknown, but forgotten.
      Young readers for the most part do not know anything about YES, so the “forgotten” is “unknown”.
      1. +3
        21 February 2024 22: 30
        Were there any articles on VO about the Polish machine gun “Puppy” lekki lotniczy karabin maszynowy wz. 37?
        1. +2
          22 February 2024 10: 41
          Quote: hohol95
          Were there any articles on VO about the Polish machine gun “Puppy” lekki lotniczy karabin maszynowy wz. 37?

          As far as I know, there was no such article.
          1. +2
            22 February 2024 10: 49
            This means that few people know about this Polish aircraft machine gun...
            We need to correct this “dark spot” on VO.
          2. +2
            22 February 2024 10: 49
            This means that few people know about this Polish aircraft machine gun...
            We need to correct this “dark spot” on VO.
            1. +4
              22 February 2024 10: 58
              Quote: hohol95
              This means that few people know about this Polish aircraft machine gun...
              We need to correct this “dark spot” on VO.

              On this branch there is a unique professional helicopter pilot who knows everything better than anyone. Maybe ask him? Moreover, he already had a publication in which he proposed shooting down missiles using aircraft machine guns.
              1. +3
                22 February 2024 11: 13
                My weak mind is unlikely to withstand communication with such a comprehensively developed individual.
                1. +3
                  22 February 2024 11: 16
                  Quote: hohol95
                  My weak mind is unlikely to withstand communication with such a comprehensively developed individual.

                  Mine can hardly stand it either, especially since he constantly distorts the facts. wassat
                  Tomorrow I will go to take a break from this communication, catch smelt and navaga in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.
                  1. +3
                    22 February 2024 11: 17
                    We have another thaw tomorrow. Rain and ice...
                    1. +2
                      22 February 2024 11: 20
                      Quote: hohol95
                      We have another thaw tomorrow. Rain and ice...

                      Well, I don’t know what’s better, rain and ice or just sea ice about a meter thick. On the Amur, where it is colder and the water is fresh, the ice is about 1,5 meters.
                      1. +2
                        22 February 2024 11: 38
                        Ice on the river and ice in the yard (not sprinkled with sand and reagent) are two different things...
              2. 0
                22 February 2024 17: 49
                Quote: Bongo
                Moreover, he already had a publication in which he proposed shooting down missiles using aircraft machine guns.

                But there were such experiments. And even, it seems, partially successful.

                I wish I could remember where I read about this...
                1. +3
                  23 February 2024 01: 36
                  Quote: DenVB
                  But there were such experiments. And even, it seems, partially successful.

                  Really? belay No, of course you can place a fairly fast-firing machine gun on a helicopter, but where do you attach the fire control system, which, due to the fact that the helicopter and the missile are moving at high speed, should be superior to the equipment of the Mark 15 Phalanx CIWS? Please google its dimensions and weight.
                  Quote: DenVB
                  I wish I could remember where I read about this...

                  It is impossible to remember something that did not exist in reality. No.
                  1. 0
                    23 February 2024 01: 40
                    Quote: Bongo
                    It is impossible to remember something that did not exist in reality.

                    Existed. You just need to find it.

                    Quote: Bongo
                    where will you attach the fire control system

                    There was no fire control system there. The man shot.
                    1. +3
                      23 February 2024 01: 42
                      Quote: DenVB
                      There was no fire control system there. The man shot.

                      A person hitting an anti-aircraft missile flying at supersonic speed along an unpredictable trajectory?
                      Of course you can shoot, but hit... No.
                      1. 0
                        23 February 2024 01: 54
                        Quote: Bongo
                        Of course you can shoot, but hit...

                        It seems like I even almost (!) got there. However, if I don’t find the magazine in which I once read about this (about twenty years ago), no one will believe it anyway...
                      2. +2
                        23 February 2024 01: 56
                        Quote: DenVB
                        It seems like I even almost (!) got there.

                        I have a proposal for you: let’s not write nonsense, and I won’t doubt your adequacy? There are already plenty of inadequate people at VO. hi
                        By the way, Happy Holidays!
                      3. 0
                        23 February 2024 02: 03
                        Quote: Bongo
                        I have a proposal for you: let’s not write nonsense, and I won’t doubt your adequacy?

                        I don’t understand what I did wrong to you. It was a single article in some paper magazine. I read a lot of everything, but I almost never take notes. I remember the fact of reading exactly, but where exactly - sometimes for the life of me, years ago. If you want to doubt my adequacy, doubt it, I don’t care.
                      4. +1
                        23 February 2024 02: 11
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Quote: Bongo
                        I have a proposal for you: let’s not write nonsense, and I won’t doubt your adequacy?

                        I don’t understand what I did wrong to you. It was a single article in some paper magazine. I read a lot of everything, but I almost never take notes. I remember the fact of reading exactly, but where exactly - sometimes for the life of me, years ago. If you want to doubt my adequacy, doubt it, I don’t care.


                        You haven’t done anything wrong, you just shouldn’t repeat stupid things. From a technical point of view, this is absolute nonsense. If this method of protecting aircraft from anti-aircraft missiles were really effective, it would have already been used. Recently, electronics have become much more compact, which makes it possible to make a fairly lightweight sighting and search OES, and the computing power of computers has increased by orders of magnitude. But all the same, there are no such defensive installations, and for many reasons there will not be.
                      5. 0
                        23 February 2024 02: 16
                        Quote: Bongo
                        You haven't done anything wrong, but from a technical point of view, this is absolute nonsense.

                        As you say.
                      6. +3
                        23 February 2024 02: 17
                        Practice is the criterion of truth!
                      7. 0
                        25 February 2024 03: 34
                        Quote: Bongo
                        Practice is the criterion of truth!

                        I don’t know about practice, but I found the article. It was the magazine "Brother", 2004. And it turns out that the article was even republished here on VO: https://topwar.ru/122388-pochemu-berkut-ne-raspravil-krylya.html

                        This is such nonsense.
                      8. +1
                        27 February 2024 14: 10
                        Quote: DenVB
                        It was the magazine "Brother", 2004. And it turns out that the article was even republished here on VO: https://topwar.ru/122388-pochemu-berkut-ne-raspravil-krylya.html

                        It's strange when adults persist in delusions. Taking journalistic fables as a source is, to say the least, not serious. How many years have passed since the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan, and why is such a unique method of protection against MANPADS still not used anywhere?
                      9. -1
                        27 February 2024 14: 20
                        Quote: zyablik.olga
                        It's strange when adults persist in delusions. Taking journalistic fables as a source is, to say the least, not serious. How many years have passed since the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan, and why is such a unique method of protection against MANPADS still not used anywhere?

                        It’s strange when people who claim to be adults cannot understand the meaning of what they read. I did not promise anyone a unique method of protection against MANPADS. I promised to find an article that talked about such experiments. I found the article. You can read and think. Or read and not think. Or don’t read and don’t think. I don't care.
  8. +6
    21 February 2024 11: 21
    Cool article Sergey!
    My regards!!!!
  9. -1
    21 February 2024 11: 59
    And why is he so unknown? In the Model Designer and Youth Technique, everything was written about him quite a long time ago..
    1. +6
      21 February 2024 13: 14
      Quote: zombirusrev
      And why is he so unknown? In the Model Designer and Youth Technique, everything was written about him quite a long time ago..

      Generation (40+) read these wonderful periodicals. But for our 16-year-old son, this machine gun is unknown, since Call of Duty and Modern Warfare do not have machine guns.
      1. +4
        21 February 2024 14: 11
        Generation (40+) read these wonderful periodicals.

        Olga, don't be surprised. For once, some readers were able to show erudition under Sergei’s articles, like “we knew this for a long time.” For many this is a memorable event, “I ask for your understanding.”
        1. +5
          21 February 2024 14: 15
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Generation (40+) read these wonderful periodicals.

          Olga, don't be surprised. For once, some readers were able to show erudition under Sergei’s articles, like “we knew this for a long time.” For many this is a memorable event, “I ask for your understanding.”

          It surprises me when readers cling to little things, but at the same time the same people calmly accept nonsense like: “Zircons around London”... request
          1. +4
            21 February 2024 14: 27
            It surprises me when readers cling to little things, but at the same time the same people calmly accept nonsense like: “Zircons around London”...

            I envy you in a good way; you have retained the ability to be surprised by such things. I'm no longer surprised.
      2. +5
        21 February 2024 22: 27
        This “unit” is probably familiar only to specialists in pre-war Polish aviation -
        Lekki lotniczy karabin maszynowy wz. 37.
        wz design. 37 is based on John Moses Browning's Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR). A variant of the BAR light machine gun - rkm wz.28 - was in service in Poland (Second Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). Since 28, the same designer, Wawrzyniec Lewandowski, the author of the original model, has been processing the rkm wz.1936 light machine gun into an aircraft turret.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  10. +5
    21 February 2024 21: 45
    Quote: zyablik.olga
    Quote: zombirusrev
    And why is he so unknown? In the Model Designer and Youth Technique, everything was written about him quite a long time ago..

    Generation (40+) read these wonderful periodicals. But for our 16-year-old son, this machine gun is unknown, since Call of Duty and Modern Warfare do not have machine guns.


    And not everyone from the 40+ generation read all sections. Some people were not interested in weapons or weapons. At that age.

    Thanks to the author! And in the controversy after the article, the author is more correct than some of the furious attackers.
    1. +3
      22 February 2024 16: 09
      Quote from Fangaro
      And in the controversy after the article, the author is more correct than some of the furious attackers.

      In fact, there is only one “attacker” and he is constantly trying to adjust the facts to his conjectures.