They were the first: Tokarev and Degtyarev submachine guns

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They were the first: Tokarev and Degtyarev submachine guns
PPD-30 pistol with a top-mounted magazine. Museum of Artillery and Signal Troops, St. Petersburg. Photo purchased by AST publishing house


"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.”

First John 1:1.

People and weapon. Someone always comes first. Or he says an important word first. But very often the first step is not very correct, and the first word does not sound very clear. This is exactly what happened, for example, with history submachine guns.



The first examples of these weapons, which appeared during the First World War, both in Italy and in Austria-Hungary, were ... “not very intelligible.” The MP-18 sounded louder, more powerfully and significantly in Germany. It was patented in December 1917 by designer Hugo Schmeisser, produced at Theodor Bergman's enterprise, and was noticed by the military all over the world, but never played a special role in the war itself.

Moreover, soon after the end of the First World War, work began in various countries to create their own submachine guns. They also began in Soviet Russia, despite the difficult legacy of the Civil War and problems in industry. But there were cadres of talented gunsmiths, and there was some interest from the military.

But what was the first word we said in this direction? We will talk about this today.

Progress in the field of creating submachine guns began with the model of F.V. Tokarev, proposed by him in 1927. It was not accepted into service, however, as it turned out, it even had the chance to take part in the Great Patriotic War, although, of course, in an extremely limited manner.

It is interesting that in appearance this weapon turned out to be very elegant and beautiful. A kind of not too long and not too short carbine with a small magazine under the receiver, covered in front with a wooden cover with protrusions for the fingers.

The ammunition was also very interesting for it, for which, without further ado, Tokarev took a cartridge from a revolver, since pistol cartridges were not yet produced in the USSR. True, he had to additionally compress the barrel onto the cone in order to avoid delays due to the sticking of cartridges when fed into the chamber. A new delay arose - the cartridges began to get stuck in the chamber due to the cartridge case being torn apart after the shot; the military also had a number of other comments. So in the end it was never accepted into service.

Nevertheless, this development by Tokarev contained a number of features that were ahead of their time and once again emphasizing the extraordinary talent of this designer. Thus, the sector magazine had holes for visual consumption of ammunition. There was also a convenient magazine cover, which was absent on all our subsequent SMGs. But then... it was strictly forbidden to hold the weapon by the magazine, which, naturally, no one paid attention to in battles.

Among the conveniences is the fact that almost all the metal parts of this submachine gun were covered with wood, which increased the comfort of handling it, especially in winter. Moreover, the second magazine with cartridges could be stored in a special container inside the butt. Switching fire modes was also very simple: using two triggers: pressing the rear trigger turned on a single fire, pressing the front trigger turned on continuous fire.

The submachine gun had a trigger trigger and was fired from a closed bolt. The designer even installed a bolt stop on his brainchild, which left the bolt open after the cartridges in the magazine ran out. And again, this was very rare for such a weapon at that time, and even today which of our submachine guns can boast of this?

The submachine gun also had a very simple sight with the rear sight open at 50 m and two folding, diopter sights at 100 and 200 m. Which, again, was done very prudently, unlike other Soviet SMGs of the pre-war period, which were equipped with very complex and stupid sector sights. Everything is like in other countries. But during the Great Patriotic War, for some reason, they quickly abandoned them and began to install simple and convenient two-position flip rear sights on them.

True, parts for the Tokarev submachine gun had to be made on metal-cutting machines. But here, too, he envisioned a more technologically advanced option, which had a receiver made of a pipe that went into a perforated barrel casing. The number of parts in it, by the way, was small - 81. By the way, the PPSh had 87 parts.

It is believed that between 300 and 600 Tokarev submachine guns were produced, and there were quite a lot of re-compressed Nagant cartridges for them. And somewhere it all lay in warehouses until it surfaced on the Kalinin Front in January 1942. This is even how it happens in the history of weapons!

Of course, knowing that the Tokarev submachine gun did not work, in 1929 V. A. Degtyarev, who had literally just created his famous DP-27 light machine gun, proposed his development of this type of weapon. And he, too, did not come up with something new, but took his own semi-free bolt with lugs diverging to the sides from the DP machine gun.

As for the cartridge, by this time the decision of the Artillery Committee of July 7, 1928, which decided to use 7,63 mm Mauser cartridges for pistols and submachine guns, had already come into force. It was decided to produce them in our country, and all PPs would be created specifically for them. So the Degtyarev submachine gun was created precisely for this cartridge.

By the way, the military did not like it during testing, primarily because it was too complicated for production. And indeed: what is good for a light machine gun is clearly unnecessary for such a simple “machine” as a submachine gun!

After all, the retreat of the PPD-30 bolt back was slowed down due to the redistribution of recoil energy between its first and second parts. The front part of the bolt, which directly locked the breech section of the barrel, had two diverging lugs in the form of levers located on both sides.

In the extreme forward position, when the bolt rested against the breech, the bolt frame continued to move by inertia and under the influence of the recoil spring, and then the conical surface of the hammer, made integral with it, pushed both of these stops apart, and they fit into special cutouts on the sides receiver. This is how the locking was carried out.

When fired, the lugs, due to their beveled surfaces, began to converge and squeezed out the firing pin located between them. At the same time, the withdrawal of the bolt frame accelerated, and the withdrawal of the front part of the bolt, on the contrary, slowed down. And only after the firing pin was completely squeezed out, the bolt was unlocked, and then it moved back together with the bolt frame completely freely.

By the way, this whole design is very similar to the one that German designers later used in their HK MP5 submachine gun with roller brake of the bolt release, only Degtyarev used lever-shaped lugs instead of rollers.

As in the DP-27, the design was reliable, but required very careful processing of the rubbing surfaces, which was clearly not necessary in such a weapon as a mass-produced submachine gun.

Another characteristic detail of this weapon, never seen again, was a disk magazine with radial placement of cartridges, located flat on the receiver, again, similar to how the magazine was located on the DP-27. Today, such a placement looks unusual, but it has its advantages: when shooting from a trench, cover, or in a prone position, this way you can lower the line of sight and, accordingly, the likelihood of the shooter being hit by return fire.

This arrangement of the store, although not a disk, but a box-shaped one, was received by some foreign PPs, for example, the Australian “Owen” and F1. Moreover, the latter served for a very long time and was withdrawn from service only in the early 1990s of the last century. But the box stores blocked the view, which cannot be said about the flat Degtyarevsky one. But its capacity (44 rounds) was too small, while the rate of fire, on the contrary, was too high - 1 rounds/min.

The receiver is milled, similar to a DP box; the barrel with transverse cooling ribs was completely covered with a perforated casing. A handle was provided at the bottom for ease of holding. Flag-type fire switches were located above the trigger guard: fire switch (on the right) and a safety switch (on the left). The sight was frame, calibrated at a distance of up to 200 m.

In general, Degtyarev’s idea to unify the design of the PP with a light machine gun did not justify itself.

And in 1931, the designer began making a new submachine gun with a different type of semi-blowback. In it, the shutter release was slowed down due to increased friction between the bolt handle and the bevel in the front part of the cutout for it in the receiver. At the same time, the shutter itself, moving back, turned a small angle to the right - an original solution, to be sure. This PP had a more technologically advanced round-section receiver and a barrel almost completely covered with wooden linings (instead of a casing).

It was only in 1932 that a blowback-breech submachine gun appeared. Two years were spent fine-tuning it, after which it was adopted by the Red Army under the designation PPD-34.
59 comments
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  1. +17
    23 February 2024 05: 34
    Thanks Vyacheslav!
    The only thing surprisingly missing are photographs of weapons.
    I remembered about an old article on VO by Kirill Karasik. Photos of PPT-27 from it.
    1. +9
      23 February 2024 06: 56
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      What's surprisingly missing are photographs of weapons.

      Yes, Vladislav, it’s not enough! But this photo also cost 4 thousand rubles. 3 photos would have cost 12 thousand. I don’t know where Karasik took these photos. But the AST publishing house cannot use them without a link to the source and documentary evidence of the transfer of rights. After all, I need these photos not only for articles on VO, but also for books on the history of weapons. And imagine what they will cost if you pay 4-5 thousand for one photo.
      1. +9
        23 February 2024 08: 31
        Tokarev submachine gun model 1927
        appearance
        1. +7
          23 February 2024 08: 33
          Tokarev submachine guns model 1927 and 1928
          1. +5
            23 February 2024 09: 48
            Dear Richard! Sincere thanks for the photo and desire to help me. But... these photos are like a poultice for me. I'll explain why. So you come to the museum, pay money for photography and take pictures. Whose photos will there be? You think it's yours, right? Ah, no. A legal issue arises. You own these photos, but the museum still has the right to use them, since it did not give you the right to use them commercially in print. And as soon as you write under the photo: Museum such and such... Photo by the author - that’s where you “got it”. Therefore, the publishing house enters into a contract for all photographs taken in the museum, attaches all the photos, indicates who took them and asks the museum to allow them to be published free of charge. The only way! Therefore, I can look at the photographs you posted, but I cannot use them in the book. So thanks again! But that's all...
            1. 0
              23 February 2024 10: 58
              Quote: kalibr
              And as soon as you write under the photo: Museum such and such... Photo by the author - that’s where you “got”
              And if you don’t write this, then what will happen?
              1. +3
                23 February 2024 12: 32
                Quote: bk0010
                Quote: kalibr
                And as soon as you write under the photo: Museum such and such... Photo by the author - that’s where you “got”
                And if you don’t write this, then what will happen?

                You can't not write in a book! But lying... can be very bad: trial and “execution” - claims for many tens of thousands of rubles.
            2. +4
              23 February 2024 13: 09
              Quote: kalibr
              So you come to the museum, pay money for photography and take pictures. Whose photos will there be? You think it's yours, right? Ah, no. A legal issue arises.

              I’m curious, what will happen if you use “photo master” or any of its analogues?
              PhotoMaster is a program that allows you to turn a photo into a drawing.
              Drawings and paintings, even if it is a caricature for a “crocodile,” are also subject to copyright. But in this case you will be the author)
              1. +2
                23 February 2024 13: 40
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Quote: kalibr
                So you come to the museum, pay money for photography and take pictures. Whose photos will there be? You think it's yours, right? Ah, no. A legal issue arises.

                I’m curious, what will happen if you use “photo master” or any of its analogues?
                PhotoMaster is a program that allows you to turn a photo into a drawing.
                Drawings and paintings, even if it is a caricature for a “crocodile,” are also subject to copyright. But in this case you will be the author)

                Ivan! Who will do this? Write a book and also draw it yourself? What if the publishing house doesn’t want to pay for the drawings, and doesn’t pay for the photos in principle? What then? No, it’s easier, although troublesome, to find sources of attributed photos and use them in accordance with the law and the requirements of the publishing house.
                1. +5
                  23 February 2024 13: 47
                  Quote: kalibr
                  What if the publishing house doesn’t want to pay for the drawings, and doesn’t pay for the photos in principle?

                  The author is defenseless before the publishing house... request
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Who will do this?

                  It's not difficult really.
                  Quote: kalibr
                  should I draw it?

                  The program will draw.
                  But if the publishing house doesn’t accept it, then there’s nothing to talk about.
                  However, I was curious precisely a legal moment.
                  1. +1
                    23 February 2024 13: 49
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    precisely a legal moment.

                    There is a lot of hassle with them. Each of my books is a bunch of correspondence and signed agreements on rights, drawings, photographs and their assignment and payment.
          2. +4
            23 February 2024 17: 23
            Hello Dima!))
            Have you seen this version of PPD?
            For submachine gun No. 28 with a ribbed outer surface of the barrel and without a casing, the base of the front sight was put on the barrel. The weight of the submachine gun No. 17 in relation to earlier models was reduced by 65 grams, which was achieved mainly due to the lighter bolt by 40 grams. The weight of submachine gun No. 28 has been reduced by 110 grams.
            1. +3
              23 February 2024 18: 41
              Naturally not. Unlike you, Konstantin, I didn’t work as an Art. researcher in the weapons section of one of the main museums of the USSR
              Happy holiday to you! drinks
              1. +2
                23 February 2024 20: 39
                Why suddenly on "YOU"? Just a joke, I hope.))
                And I was not a scientist, but a restorer.))
                1. +1
                  23 February 2024 23: 16
                  Moreover, I can imagine how many different historical firearms have passed through your hands. I really liked your photo on the philosophical and historical forum, where you are with an American machine gun, and next to you are Gokhran officers, diligently covering your face with your palms. It was news to me to learn that in those days, for some political reasons, the police were forbidden to be photographed next to weapons.
                  1. +1
                    24 February 2024 01: 07
                    Yes, the hardware has gone through quite a bit.))
      2. +7
        23 February 2024 08: 38
        The Tokarev submachine gun of the 27th year - (orig. - light Tokarev carbine) - an experimental model of an automatic weapon created in 1927 for a modified Nagant revolver cartridge, the first of the submachine guns developed in the USSR
        TTH:
        TOZ manufacturer
        A total of 300-600 were produced.
        Features
        Weight, kg 3,3 (with two loaded magazines)
        2,8 (with two empty magazines)
        Length, mm 805
        Barrel length, mm 330
        Cartridge 7,62×38 mm Nagant
        7,63×25 mm Mauser
        Caliber, mm 7,62
        Rate of fire
        rounds/min 1100—1200 (technical)
        40 (combat, single)
        100 (combat, burst)
        starting speed
        bullets, m/s 302
        Maximum
        range, m 150
  2. +4
    23 February 2024 06: 47
    And somewhere it all lay in warehouses until it surfaced on the Kalinin Front in January 1942. This is even how it happens in the history of weapons!
    Yes, if you delve into Soviet warehouses at that time, you could find many interesting weapons. Even the 1916 Fedorov assault rifle took part in the Second World War, in particular on the Karelian Front. The American Thomson also took part in WWII...
    1. +8
      23 February 2024 07: 14
      Quote: rotmistr60
      one could find many interesting weapons.

      Photos from the parade on November 7, 41 are proof of this...
    2. +7
      23 February 2024 07: 21
      My grandfather served in the internal troops of the NKVD from 1938 to 1953. In the late 30s, as a Voroshilov rifleman, he was given a PPD. He placed the latter above PPSh and PPS. He fought with the latter after 44. He had a very negative attitude towards Thompson, considered him “poor” because of his cartridge. It was from him that I learned that we had an American before the war.
      1. +5
        23 February 2024 07: 27
        The PPD actually had better characteristics than the PPSh (PPS is a big question), but it was expensive to produce, which was wasteful during the war. Therefore, it was PPSh that began to be mass-produced at enterprises and even in workshops. But the PPD, thanks to the available reserves, continued to be used at the front.
        1. +7
          23 February 2024 07: 52
          PPP is a big question

          I am writing purely about the subjective memories of my grandfather. He had to leave the PPD due to transfer to another military unit. They issued new teaching staff there, as far as I remember, he didn’t like it because of the metal stock and the small-capacity magazine. However, he also talked about how he struggled with the second magazine for the PPD. Although, in his words, everyone “carried four, rarely three, “drums.” There was always a problem with step-relatives; they were pushed “to the place.” Moreover, they took care of the spring and did not load more than 62 rounds - later 60 rounds were not loaded. For more recent PCA, the norm was 66.
          He finished his service with SKS. Although the unit had both AKs and RPDs. It’s interesting, but from his words, the outfits carried carbines model 1944 with an integral bayonet.
          1. +8
            23 February 2024 10: 11
            PPD submachine gun, produced at shipyard No. 202, 1942 (sample from the collection of TsVMM, St. Petersburg)
            1. +2
              23 February 2024 16: 35
              Thank you, Lesha! I haven't seen this yet.
              Local Kulibins have improved and, by the way, not bad.))
              1. +3
                23 February 2024 16: 39
                We installed a muzzle brake and a bayonet mount from SVT!

                Link to article -
                https://kalashnikov-ru.turbopages.org/kalashnikov.ru/s/s-ochen-dalyokogo-zavoda-pistolet-pulemyot-ppd-40/
                1. +3
                  23 February 2024 17: 05
                  And they made a more convenient and reliable fuse.
          2. +5
            23 February 2024 11: 04
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            However, he also talked about how he struggled with the second magazine for the PPD. Although, in his words, everyone “carried four, rarely three, “drums.” There was always a problem with step-relatives; they were pushed “to the place.”
            PPSh had the same thing: for each they made two drums that fit exactly and that’s it. And, it seems, the rest of the details have the same problem: fitting to a specific instance.
        2. +6
          23 February 2024 07: 53
          Quote: rotmistr60
          But PPD

          Remember the film "Two Soldiers" from 1943. There are quite a few shots in it where PPD is visible...
        3. +4
          23 February 2024 14: 48
          PPD was manufactured in Leningrad and Vladivostok.
          In Leningrad from August 1941 to February 1943.
          In Vladivostok in 1942-1943. Approximately 1200 pieces.
      2. +4
        23 February 2024 11: 01
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        In the late 30s, as a Voroshilov shooter, he was given a PPD.
        Damn, what's the logic? A man shoots well, but he is given not a sniper, not at least an ordinary rifle, but a submachine gun with an aiming range of 50 m and fire in bursts...
        1. +6
          23 February 2024 14: 30
          Quote: bk0010
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          In the late 30s, as a Voroshilov shooter, he was given a PPD.
          Damn, what's the logic? A man shoots well, but he is given not a sniper, not at least an ordinary rifle, but a submachine gun with an aiming range of 50 m and fire in bursts...

          The NKVD security division (in the Kremlin) did not have sniper rifles until 1940. When SVTs with sniper scopes appeared, he was already a squad commander.
          By shooting. When they bought me an IZH-38s pneumatic. Grandfather put on glasses and from 7 meters hit 10 with the first shot. Then he moved away 10 meters, again 10. Then he moved away at meters 15 - 10, 20-10 and only with 25 - 8. The second shot - 10. He took off his glasses and didn’t come near us anymore.
          Only when I finished did he silently bring me an oil can from a sewing machine and some rags.
          After his death, I learned from my mother that my grandfather never missed. In Chebarkul before the war, he was not even allowed into the shooting ranges. They offered to take the prize without looking...
        2. 0
          23 February 2024 15: 45
          Quote: bk0010
          Damn, what's the logic? A man shoots well, but he is given not a sniper, not even an ordinary rifle, but a submachine gun

          If a fighter shoots well, then he most likely has high firing discipline, and this is important for automatic weapons.
        3. 0
          25 February 2024 11: 15
          The target range of the PPD is 500 m, not 50.
          1. 0
            25 February 2024 11: 52
            Quote: Droid
            The target range of the PPD is 500 m, not 50.
            Weapons chambered for a pistol cartridge cannot have an effective range of 500m. 100m - well, I can admit it, but if there was an aiming range of 500m, then no intermediate cartridges would be needed.
    3. +5
      23 February 2024 10: 15
      The Fedorov assault rifle was used back in the Finnish War.
      They were given to sappers, and they used them for protection when mining Finnish bunkers.
  3. +3
    23 February 2024 12: 01
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    My grandfather served in the internal troops of the NKVD from 1938 to 1953. In the late 30s, as a Voroshilov rifleman, he was given a PPD. He placed the latter above PPSh and PPS. He fought with the latter after 44. He had a very negative attitude towards Thompson, considered him “poor” because of his cartridge. It was from him that I learned that we had an American before the war.

    However, the line is 15 years. Just like under the damned tsarism.
    PPS with loaded magazine = empty PPD (3.6kg)
    PPD rate of fire -1000 rpm. , with PPS you can thoughtfully cut off one shot at a time (600v/min)
    Well, the thought about the poor 0.45 ACP requires a more detailed answer. The energies are the same
    1. +4
      23 February 2024 14: 17
      However, the line is 15 years. Just like under the damned tsarism.

      What does “damned tsarism” have to do with it?
      Grandfather born in 1920. At the age of 18 he was called up to serve for 4 years. In 1941 the war began. My grandmother waited for my grandfather for 15 years.
      PPD rate of fire -1000 rpm. , with PPS you can thoughtfully cut off one shot at a time (600v/min)

      I first heard about the cutoff of 2-3 rounds from my grandfather, apparently he had no problems with it.
      Well, the thought about the poor 0.45 ACP requires a more detailed answer. The energies are the same

      I remember my grandfather’s conversation with my father: “The American bullet is big, after a hundred meters it doesn’t penetrate a padded jacket.”
      Once again, I am writing based on conversations with my grandfather. I still regret that I didn’t find time to talk to him seriously.
      1. +2
        23 February 2024 18: 49
        Grandfather born in 1920. At the age of 18 he was called up to serve for 4 years.
        The first conscription of 18-year-olds was in 1940. Then they called up my father (b. 1922) straight from the Fergana Pedagogical Institute, where he studied for 2 months. Subsequently, it turned out that these two months played a positive role in his entire subsequent life, although almost all this time he ran cross-country and competed for the gymnastics department.
        1. +2
          23 February 2024 20: 23
          The first conscription of 18-year-olds was in 1940. Then they called up my father (b. 1922) straight from the Fergana Pedagogical Institute, where he studied for 2 months.

          In the Red Army - yes. Grandfather ended up immediately in the NKVD division. I can’t answer what the paradox is. Recruitment took place along the Komsomol line; he was drafted through the Chebarkul Military Commissariat. Moreover, he was not there voluntarily; there was a wedding coming up. Until 1940, he said that everyone was fed in the dining room, like in a restaurant. Tables for four fighters, waiters. They lived in cubicles. Since 1940, everything returned to the norm of Soviet realities, barracks, common canteen. As far as I remember, he was lucky to be in a training platoon.
          1. 0
            23 February 2024 20: 26
            Grandfather ended up immediately in the NKVD division.
            Well, it was an elite organization. The writer Eduard Limonov, whose father also served there, mentioned this.
    2. 0
      25 February 2024 11: 17
      Quote: Zufei
      The energies are the same

      But the trajectories are different. The thoracic DPV of the PPD/PPSh/PPS is 220 m, and that of the Thompson is ~140.
  4. +5
    23 February 2024 15: 40
    Of course, knowing that the Tokarev submachine gun did not work, in 1929 V. A. Degtyarev proposed his development of this type of weapon

    Here, Vyacheslav Olegovich, according to a long-standing tradition, you were a little hasty. Until July 13, 193, no one knew anything. And they carried out their developments in parallel. Because the finish line was still very far away. And on July 13, 1930, comparative tests of domestic and foreign submachine guns were completed. The tests were carried out on a Tokarev submachine gun chambered for a revolving cartridge, a Degtyarev submachine gun chambered for a 7,62 mm Mauser cartridge, a Korovin self-loading carbine chambered for the same cartridge (photo attached), a Thompson submachine gun mod. 1921 chambered for the Colt-Browning cartridge of 11,43 mm caliber and the Rheinmetall MP-19 submachine gun chambered for the 9-mm Parabellum cartridge.
    The commission's findings were disappointing.
    From the analysis of the results it is clear that the majority of items presented for testing. they do not satisfy their purpose, either in terms of reliability of action or accuracy. The only samples that successfully passed the tests can be considered the pp, manufactured by the Rheinmetall plant and pp. "Thompson"

    Therefore, the deadline for the next tests was set - October 1, 1930. But the designers were able to cope only by July 1931. From July 1931 to April 20, 1932, seven submachine guns chambered for the 7,62 mm Mauser cartridge were tested - V. A. Degtyarev No. 1, F. V. Tokarev No. 1, S. A. Prilutsky, two samples S. A. Korovina, I. N. Kolesnikova and BNK INZ - 2 (Kovrov Tool Plant No. 2).
    But this is already the topic of a new article - suddenly you are planning a continuation.
  5. +4
    23 February 2024 16: 18
    And in 1931, the designer began making a new submachine gun with a different type of semi-blowback. In it, the shutter release was slowed down due to increased friction between the bolt handle and the bevel in the front part of the cutout for it in the receiver. At the same time, the shutter itself, moving back, turned a small angle to the right - an original solution, to be sure. This PP had a more technologically advanced round-section receiver and a barrel almost completely covered with wooden linings (instead of a casing).

    Since I don’t have any problems with photographs, I’ll add a photo of the experimental Degtyarev submachine gun mod. 1931 and a detailed photo of the shutter slowdown system.
  6. +2
    23 February 2024 17: 17
    The author relied on visualization, as well as on his readers.
    1. -7
      23 February 2024 17: 58
      Quote: Letterhead
      The author relied on visualization, as well as on his readers.

      Why not rely on some, but the smart ones understand everything perfectly. Pay me 4 thousand rubles. for every photo and visualization you will at least eat.
      1. +5
        23 February 2024 18: 01
        To pay? To you? It’s easier not to waste time on empty, meaningless, graphomaniac articles. And yes, don’t start a hurdy-gurdy about the percentage of novelty, and la-la-la, verified by a program on a computer.
        1. -2
          23 February 2024 18: 03
          Quote: Letterhead
          It’s easier not to waste time on empty, meaningless, graphomaniac articles.

          So don't waste it. Look for something that is not empty or graphomaniac. The main thing is to go to VO. If you don't want to... don't come in.
          1. +6
            23 February 2024 18: 06
            Yes, here, to my great regret, you are right... for several years now the number of authors has decreased significantly, only a few sensible articles are published, I visit VO more out of habit... it’s unfortunate
            1. 0
              23 February 2024 20: 12
              Quote: Letterhead
              only a few sensible articles are published

              And where will they come from if the State Historical Museum demands 12,700 rubles for a photo? The Museum of the Armed Forces from 2 to 4 thousand, the Museum of Artillery for two of its street photos of guns - 5 thousand. If you live in Moscow, you can contact the Museum of the Armed Forces, they say, I ask for permission to work in the storeroom... to write an article on VO ...or in St. Petersburg go to the Art Museum with the same request... By the way, the local publishing house Atlant makes very good books on weapons - 4900 rubles. the cheapest. As they say, EVERYTHING IS FOR YOU!
  7. +6
    23 February 2024 17: 27
    PPD-30
    Photos from different angles.
  8. +1
    24 February 2024 14: 23
    and MP-18. It was patented in December 1917 by the designer Hugo Schmeisser, and was produced at the enterprise of Theodor Bergman,


    Firstly, maybe not MP-18, but MP-18?
    Secondly, it was not the machine gun that was patented, but several technical solutions with two patents.
    Thirdly, the patent applicant is T. Bergmann, Hugo is not mentioned in the patents.
  9. 0
    24 February 2024 18: 27
    Did someone order Tokarev’s PP, or did he put it together on his own initiative?
  10. 0
    24 February 2024 21: 30
    V. A. Degtyarev, who literally just created his famous DP-27 light machine gun. And he, too, did not come up with something new, but took his own semi-blowback with combat stops from the DP machine gun diverging to the sides.

    Under no circumstances can the breech of a DP machine gun, rigidly coupled to the barrel, be called semi-free.
  11. 0
    25 February 2024 11: 19
    But then... it was strictly forbidden to hold the weapon by the magazine, which, naturally, no one paid attention to in battles.


    Where and by whom was this prohibited?
  12. 0
    25 February 2024 12: 00
    Quote: bk0010
    Weapons chambered for a pistol cartridge cannot have an effective range of 500m

    Perfectly possible. You just don’t know what the sighting range is.
    To put it very briefly and approximately, the sighting range is the largest division on the sight.
  13. 0
    28 February 2024 18: 11
    I admit, the article interested me extremely, but I didn’t fully understand everything, it doesn’t matter, I’ll try to figure it out and look in the professional literature. I was hoping that the discussion would help me, but unfortunately and surprisingly, the discussion did not help. I admit that the first weapon, I did not know this and it seems that it was possible or necessary to continue in this direction. Thanks for the article, but I have a lot to learn. am
  14. 0
    11 March 2024 18: 29
    As far as I remember, only Kasull used this type of ammunition supply and the upper location of the disk in the PP, 30 years later. Or were there other precedents?
  15. +1
    21 March 2024 18: 07
    I liked the article, I also got some ideas and I am glad that the discussion and photos helped me a lot this time too. At school I was given the task of reworking everything on the Degtar machine gun, I was afraid that I wouldn’t shoot much, but we were surprised that such a large magazine was not a problem, the machine gun was solid and shot perfectly. Perhaps just shooting at 600 meters was not enough. I like Russian weapons, they are unique and I thank my colleagues in the discussion, this is always very pleasant. am
  16. 0
    April 15 2024 19: 05
    And why did we need the PP? - and that Tokarev developed it on his own initiative? - there was nothing to do?