A sudden slap in the face to Bell and Sikorsky

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A sudden slap in the face to Bell and Sikorsky

Indeed, a very unexpected thing happened: not only did the US Army decide to cancel the Future Attack Recon Aircraft program, it was also announced that all this was part of a larger shake-up in the future army aviation plans.

I can’t imagine what Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky and Lawrence “Larry” Bell would say, looking at how the brainchild of companies that bear their names and work on the ideas of great designers are sent to waste in a landfill stories. But alas, the US Army has announced that it is canceling its Future Attack Recon Aircraft (FARA) program, which was aimed at acquiring a new type of high-speed armed reconnaissance helicopter.



Go figure, and it's part of a larger restructuring the U.S. Army is planning for its future fleet of helicopters and other manned and unmanned aircraft.

Cut for the sake of the next projects? No. In fact, this revision is a very difficult and important decision (this time I take my hat off to the Americans), which was made on the basis of analyzes made on information received from Ukraine. And the conclusions made by the American military turned out to be very unpleasant for helicopters in general. In the conditions of modern warfare, which is observed today in the Northern Military District, the helicopter turned out to be a very expensive and vulnerable machine.

As a result, the FARA program is being curtailed, and the fate of the helicopters that took part in it is frankly unenviable. The FARA program was launched in 2018 and was aimed primarily at replacing the AH-64 Apache, which was used in the reconnaissance role after the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior reconnaissance helicopter was retired. The use of Apaches in this role, in turn, followed years of failed attempts to find a direct replacement for the OH-58D.


We know the contenders, we have written about them several times: Raider X from Sikorsky, an original and complex machine, and 360 Invictus from Bell, a more traditional helicopter design.


raider x


360 Undefeated

The repeal of FARA is part of what the Army is currently calling a rebalancing of aviation investments. Moreover, the DoD says it will delay production of the General Electric T901 turboshaft engine developed under the Improved Turbine Engine Program (ITEP), which was closely associated with FARA, as part of this plan. The current focus will be on integrating the T901 into existing AH-64 Apache attack helicopters and UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopters.


Prototype T901 engine

At the same time, representatives of the military department say that the program to acquire new tiltrotors based on the V-280 Valor design from Bell as part of the Future Long Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA) will continue, but this is a separate conversation.


As another part of its new aviation plans, the US Army will stop upgrading older UH-60 Black Hawks in favor of buying more new production UH-60Ms. The procurement plan for improved CH-47F Chinook Block II heavy transport helicopters remains unchanged.


Both of these decisions were largely dictated by the desire not to leave the Air Force without helicopters as such and not to destroy the associated industrial base for the production of UH-60 and CH-47.


At the same time, the intention was announced to get rid of all the remaining drones RQ-7 Shadow and RQ-11 Raven. This is also logical, given the twenty-year age of these devices. In turn, the service will "increase investments in research and development to expand and accelerate the Army's unmanned aerial surveillance capabilities, including future tactical unmanned aircraft systems and launched effects." This is taken from the official release.

Not everything is clear with drones, because one day they simply changed their electronic base from analog to digital, and they served for another 10 years. However, the end of FARA is by far the largest part of the Army's recently announced rebalance of aviation programs.

Army Chief of Staff General Randy George:

“We are learning on the battlefield, especially in Ukraine, that aerial reconnaissance has changed fundamentally. Sensors and weapon, installed on various unmanned systems and in space, have become more common, more accessible and cheaper than ever before. I believe the Army can benefit the Joint Force, both in its priority theater and globally, by accelerating the innovation, acquisition, and deployment of advanced unmanned aircraft systems, including the Future Tactical Unmanned Aircraft System, Launch Effects, and commercial small unmanned aircraft systems. devices."


Of course, the conflict in Ukraine has brought a lot of attention to assessing the usefulness of various levels of drones directly on the battlefield, as well as the threats they pose. The US Army was already planning to acquire a variety of new unmanned aerial vehicles, including air-launched ones that can operate as networked swarms, even before Russia began its air defense.

General George's comments did not mention that the war in Ukraine also called into question the overall survivability of conventional helicopters on future high-level battlefields. Both Ukrainian and Russian forces have suffered significant losses in helicopters during the fighting and have adopted tactics aimed at keeping these aircraft as far away from potential threats as possible, i.e., from the front lines.

But here it is worth remembering that Ukraine is not alone... There are theaters of hypothetical military operations that are more dangerous for the United States. For example, the Pacific Ocean.


The US military will face even greater air defense threats in any future large-scale conflict, especially with China in the Pacific. In this scenario, traditional helicopters may be of even more limited usefulness given their insufficient range to operate effectively over very large areas, much of which would be covered by water.

The Army's choice of a more expensive, but longer-range, high-performance tiltrotor as the future FLRAA platform is a decision that continues to be the subject of considerable debate. The FLRAA loser, the Defiant X, was developed by Sikorsky and Boeing and was a helicopter similar to FARA's Raider X. It is possible that an armed variant of FLRAA or its derivative could now replace the FARA program.

The repeal of FARA will also impact the future of Army Special Forces aircraft fleets. Last year, US Special Operations Command said the FARA, or its variant or derivative, was expected to be a replacement for the AH-6/MH-6 Little Birds currently operated by the elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment.


MH-6 Little Bird

It's also worth noting that the Army's decision on FARA is consistent with cuts to the Marine Corps helicopter fleet in recent years. For the Marine Corps specifically, this is part of a larger restructuring of the entire force structure based on new concepts of operations that place greater emphasis on preparedness for a future major conflict in the Pacific.

However, we should not forget here that the USA is a country of lobbying. And even after all the announcements, there is a possibility that Congress could still block repeal of FARA for the military. A delegation of members of Congress from Connecticut, where Sikorsky is headquartered, has already issued a statement condemning the decision.

“We are extremely disappointed that the Army has decided to withdraw from the FARA program. The Army has told us repeatedly that FARA is their number one priority. This is a complete reversal of that position.”

“We are disappointed with this decision and will await a debriefing by the US Army to better understand its choice.”, Lockheed Martin, Sikorsky's parent company, said in a statement.

The Bell company has not made any statements on the topic. Perhaps because she won the competition for the still active FLRAA program.

Regardless, the US Army's decision to cut FARA may only raise more questions about the future of helicopters in the US military as a whole.

But the discussion that arose in the American media showed that abandoning the future attack reconnaissance helicopter was the right choice for the army.

The vast expanses of the Pacific Ocean, modern air defenses, advances in drone technology and lessons learned from Ukraine have killed the increasingly compelling case for FARA.

And here the key is indeed the Asia-Pacific region. And the fact that the US Army is canceling one of its most high-profile aircraft programs, the Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft, with two competing prototypes already built in the metal, came as a shock to many, but in fact it is quite natural.

As the Pentagon bets on the possibility of a war in the Pacific at a high level and sees the results of helicopter combat in Ukraine, the relevance of the FARA program is rightly being questioned, and the assumptions about future air warfare on which it is based are also in need of serious revision.

Simply put, moving forward would be a wasteful exercise, and canceling it now, before it got into flight testing, was the right decision. Of course, Sikorsky and Bell, having received such a loud blow, will be very unhappy, since their prototypes are almost ready. And both teams, Sikorsky with their Raider X and Bell with their 360 Invictus, worked very hard, coming up with very different solutions to the same armed reconnaissance and attack helicopter problem. Both prototypes seem very promising, and they may even live. But this is a topic for a completely separate conversation.

The current headache for the American military is the fighting in the Pacific Ocean. There is an understanding that existing concepts are suddenly outdated, but there is no vision of how things could go there. But the Pentagon already understands that purchasing hundreds of helicopters with a relatively short flight range at high prices does not make sense when it comes to combat operations in the Pacific Ocean.

In military operations in the Pacific, in the vast majority of cases, FARAs, even with extended range, will not be able to get from their home base to where they can perform combat missions and survive to do so repeatedly. The most likely outcome is that helicopters will have little to do during such a conflict, not because they are not highly capable, but because they simply will not be able to reach areas where fighting is taking place and have no chance of returning home alive, even if if they could, they would be doubtful.

But the events in Ukraine showed how vulnerable helicopters are when operating on a modern battlefield - even one that is traditionally much better for helicopters than the Pacific Ocean. Operating in a layered air defense environment significantly reduces the usefulness of rotorcraft, especially attack and reconnaissance aircraft. The realities of survivability and the need to get within striking distance of targets are increasingly out of step with attack helicopters, and many other platform options are much more suited to executing attacks from range. Launching a NURS from a pitch-up position is not a combat technique of the 21st century, no matter how you look at it.

And a man in a helicopter cockpit on a combat mission is also becoming more and more questionable every day, especially when the army is already sitting on a huge navy of almost a thousand AH-64 Apaches, almost half of which FARA vehicles were supposed to replace.

Here, of course, drones are more preferable because they are lighter, cheaper, and the use of which will not cause casualties.

A helicopter today is too slow, large and vulnerable. What can I say if cases of helicopters being hit by ATGMs have already been recorded... And some modernization will not help here.

Yes, the higher the speed, the higher the survivability. This means less opportunity to be hit, including by traditional ground fire, and less time for the enemy to react and effectively engage. It will also reduce travel times to combat areas and make evading said threats more feasible.

But adding 100-150 km/h to a helicopter's maximum speed (at best) will not improve the helicopter's survivability, especially when faced with a modern integrated air defense system. Whether the helicopter is moving at 200 or 300 kilometers per hour, the surface-to-air missile won't care once the target is detected and tracked. An airplane with a speed of 2M still has some chances, but a helicopter with a speed of 0,25M has no chance.

FARA is not just about speed. It was about combining new technologies with speed so that the vehicle could carry out any mission in difficult conditions. But further without FARA.



What's next?

And then, according to many experts in the USA - ALE. Unmanned aerial vehicles that can conduct surveillance, jam, act as decoys, and provide long-range strike capabilities, including in a cooperative "swarming" manner, would be one of the biggest assets to any rotary-wing aircraft. the device survived over the battlefield in high-level combat.


These drones, launched and controlled by FARA, would be an important part of the survivability equation. However, ALE and the complex required to control them can be installed on any army helicopter, not necessarily on a state-of-the-art one. The same can be said for electronic warfare systems, other advanced countermeasures, and advanced sensors and communications that can provide greater situational awareness and therefore survivability.

In general, UAVs look much more preferable than helicopters, even if they are fast, stealthy, and well-armed. They can carry out any helicopter mission, except, perhaps, the delivery of personnel, and in the event of the loss of the device, the crew is not lost.

The US Army still plans to develop the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA), which is a type of medium-lift aircraft based on Bell's next-generation V-280 Valor tiltrotor. In its justification for repealing FARA, the Army said it would continue to place a strong emphasis on FLRAA. The Bell design has significantly greater speed, range (it can also be air-refueled) and payload than any of FARA's competitors, and can be easily adapted to armed reconnaissance and attack missions. In fact, this was always intended, a matter of necessity.


Yes, the FLRAA vehicle in the attack configuration will clearly lose maneuverability and will be larger in size than the FARA concept, but it is difficult to say how relevant this is for the future war of army aviation. FLRAA is faster than FARA, so these disadvantages will be compensated to some extent. But what’s the point if we mean the harsh areas of the Pacific Ocean, in which speed and stealth will not prevail (you can hide there anyway), but flight range?

Considering all of the above, both the 360 ​​Invictus and the Raider X are promising aircraft, aircraft of the possible future, and with completely different characteristics. Bell's more traditional design is less ambitious than rivals Sikorsky. The Raider X has a lot of potential and significantly better performance, but it is truly exotic by traditional helicopter standards.

Beyond their capabilities, the loss of FARA when no winner has been determined at all is different for each company. Bell already has a contract with FLRAA that aims to replace many of the SH-60 Black Hawks and usher in a new era of Army rotorcraft. For Sikorsky, this is the second nail in the coffin of the X2 rigid rotor technology, on which the company clearly placed very big bets. Of course, Sikorsky has many other programs, including the CH-53K King Stallion and, of course, the extremely profitable, ever-evolving Black Hawk line, which the Army will continue to purchase for years to come. It's not going anywhere. As for the long-term future, the X2 concept, a finalist in FARA and FLRAA, was to be the key. Now the future looks less clear for the legendary aircraft company.

Of course, X2 technology could have wide applications outside the military, especially for search and rescue missions where every second counts and where speed really matters. One might imagine that a vehicle like the Raider would be the ideal flying machine for VIPs, executives, and the super-rich. It will be able to move personnel across entire regions much faster than a helicopter, but, naturally, this cannot be compared with orders for the army.


The question, of course, is whether Sikorsky will continue to invest in X2 technology after these losses, especially if it turns out that no other military funding is on the horizon.

The Bell 360 Invictus is a light attack and reconnaissance helicopter with a more traditional configuration and impressive target capabilities. It is possible that it could be further developed and offered for sale internationally. In its current form, it is less versatile than the Raider X due to its basic design limitations.


While both types are truly impressive, and it would be interesting to see them begin flight testing, the global prospect of soured relations with China and a shift to forceful methods of resolving differences is forcing a rewrite of concepts today.

Pouring huge amounts of money into the FARA concept simply doesn't make sense, especially when the future lies in UAVs with greater capabilities that can be used more freely in scenarios with a high degree of resistance to enemy air defenses.

In general, the fact that the army abandoned FARA, although it dealt a fairly significant blow to technology development companies, is a sign that awareness of changes in the world is reaching the US military. And the reaction to the changes, whatever it may be, is evidence that the Pentagon is beginning to work on its understanding of what the future should be for US Army Aviation.
110 comments
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  1. +10
    14 February 2024 04: 52
    Helicopter from the film "The Sixth Day" starring Arnold S.
    1. -2
      14 February 2024 07: 24
      If only our last generation of Western priorities did not cancel the programs of our miles and kamovs for the sake of some tiltrotor, because this is a “world trend”.
      1. +7
        14 February 2024 07: 38
        Quote: Trinitrotoluene
        "world trend".
        The global trend is precisely UAVs and in what specific form these aircraft will be implemented should be economic feasibility and not technical projects from the times of Leonardo da Vinci.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      14 February 2024 14: 14
      Something it reminds ...
      A! The collapse of the ambitious military production programs of the late USSR. After all, there are so many interesting and breakthrough things that didn’t make it into the series. And here we also created and dreamed on a grand scale.

      The hegemon is decrepit, trying to gather strength.
      Quite recently, beautiful presentations ruled the roost there - they showed a video about a miracle weapon to match Hollywood - they gave money, the lobbyists sang from the podium - they gave more money...
      And then it turns out that “you have to hold on.” And that we have to cleanse the ranks of utopian “wish lists”. After all, it’s one thing to peacefully cut through military programs that are poorly suited for a real war due to their high cost and dampness, and another thing to fight for real.

      Even drones. How much money the Americans have already invested in them... And most of them will have to be redone taking into account reality and efficiency.

      Well, old proven platforms and concepts are being revived, because they exist here and now. And is it important!
      1. 0
        15 February 2024 19: 46
        ...So I was somehow puzzled. The States haven’t thought about cheapness for about fifty years... And then suddenly...
        "Neshta vyalykae zeisstsi died" :)
    3. 0
      16 February 2024 07: 19
      helicopter from the movie "The Sixth Day"

      There should be a rotation-compensating fan at the back,

      here is another supersonic reactor, takeoff and landing both on the tail and on an airplane, you can also come up with a catapult, to land on the tail you need to either reduce the exhaust temperature or make the platform heat-resistant, and you can even lift the engines higher during takeoff and landing, or immediately raise them higher from the ground to save money and do not fence the mechanization of the wing or lengthen the rear or retractable legs, control the turbine blades at low speeds with a controlled thrust vector and at high speeds also with the ailerons, if maneuverability seems insufficient, do so that the engines can rotate a little for greater maneuverability (at least in one plane - this is if you save, and if you need to save, reduce the number of engines to three) make the controls so that one joystick in the left hand controls the left engines and the second joystick in the right hand controls the right engines, and attach the weapon to the co-pilot or robot or helmet in the unmanned mode
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +9
        14 February 2024 05: 36
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        buried the helicopters again
        These hard workers will work in the air for generations to come! Except for attack helicopters, which, in my opinion, are already on their deathbed
        1. +4
          14 February 2024 05: 40
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Except for attack helicopters, which, in my opinion, are already on their deathbed

          They will also be dying for more than one generation, due to the increase in missile launch range.
          1. +5
            14 February 2024 05: 43
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            They will also be dying for more than one generation, due to the increase in missile launch range.

            Drones are now taking on the burden of their attack. And very successfully!
            1. +3
              14 February 2024 06: 27
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              Drones are now taking on the burden of their attack. And very successfully!

              Only partly. Medium, and even more so small, drones will require stable communication with the operator for a long time, they cannot carry large combat loads, they cannot be quickly deployed, they will rather take on artillery tasks.
          2. +2
            14 February 2024 15: 04
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Except for attack helicopters, which, in my opinion, are already on their deathbed

            They will also be dying for more than one generation, due to the increase in missile launch range.


            Not a fact, not a fact. What is the use of an expensive car when you can launch 1000-2000 lancets or the like into the air for the same money?
            Just now the veriolet looks cool and is generally so stylish. But that's all
            1. -3
              14 February 2024 15: 48
              Quote from: newtc7
              What is the use of an expensive car when you can launch 1000-2000 lancets or the like into the air for the same money?

              You missed
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              quickly transferred

              And also reusable, and also capable of launching these very “like them”, and even more universal and capable of operating in the presence of any interference. No, attack helicopters have not become obsolete.
              1. +2
                15 February 2024 00: 35
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And also reusable

                And Kamov Design Bureau, in the distant 70s, when it substantiated the concept of a single-seat Ka-50 to reduce losses, proceeded from the average life of a helicopter on a high-tech battlefield from 30" to 1,5'. And as the practice of the SVO has shown, they are very disposable.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                You missed

                You missed that when transferring over a distance of 1000 or more. a couple of hundred Lancets will reach their destination in the hold of the Il-76 much faster than helicopters under their own power. So the mobility factor here must be considered solely in relation to distance.
                1. -1
                  15 February 2024 03: 37
                  Quote: JD1979
                  And Kamov Design Bureau, in the distant 70s, when it justified the concept of a single-seat Ka-50 to reduce losses, proceeded from the average lifespan of a helicopter on a high-tech battlefield from 30" to 1,5'.

                  The reduction in losses was not even a secondary factor, but an additional factor in favor of the single-seat Ka-50, the main thing was that on the route the operator-navigator could not help the pilot in orientation, and when delivering a strike, the pilot could not help the operator in searching for targets without his developed search capabilities. sighting system. But two systems and two pilots are difficult, especially in terms of armor, and very expensive. Well, another fairy tale about half an hour of life, much less - if you look for goals with your own means. Well, that’s what UAVs are for.

                  Quote: JD1979
                  And as SVO practice has shown, they are very disposable.
                  Well, this is not the case! Yes, there are losses, but surprisingly small.
                  Quote: JD1979
                  You missed that when transferring over a distance of 1000 or more. a couple of hundred Lancets will reach their destination in the hold of the Il-76 much faster than helicopters under their own power.
                  Did you come up with it yourself? Why didn’t you come up with the idea that you need operators - dozens of operators. Why didn’t they remember about dozens of CARS with catapults? Why didn’t you remember that closer than 50 km from the LBS, and much further, the IL-76 is not planted, and not just anywhere, but on at least a prepared dirt strip, and believe me, they prepare it ahead of time and VERY well.

                  Quote: JD1979
                  So the mobility factor here must be considered solely in relation to distance.
                  Well, logical.
                  1. 0
                    16 February 2024 00: 13
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    The reduction in losses was not even a secondary factor, but an additional factor in favor of single seating

                    This is exactly the main thing, well, only if your life is cheaper than hardware))) and everything else is just an additional bonus. In addition to the price of iron, there is also a replenishment time) and here, too, the pilot training time is much longer than the production of iron, not to mention the fact that it still needs to be found.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Well, another fairy tale about half an hour of life,

                    Where did you see half an hour?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Well, this is not the case! Yes, there are losses, but surprisingly small.

                    Because when they started hitting him in the face very hard, they immediately stopped flying, and then they completely shoved all the show-off-ground tactics into their ass and started flying only over their territory. And still, the losses are large, alligators, according to various sources, from 25 to 40 cars. 28x less, but only because they most likely were not allowed closer than 5 km to the LF, otherwise the losses there would have been prohibitive.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Did you come up with it yourself? Why didn’t you come up with the idea that you need operators - dozens of operators. Why didn’t they remember about dozens of CARS with catapults?

                    Why didn’t you remember that those same turntables need even more people and equipment in addition?)) they also need to carry fuel and lubricants and ammunition)).
                    1. -1
                      16 February 2024 03: 48
                      Quote: JD1979

                      This is exactly the main thing, well, only if your life is cheaper than hardware))) and everything else is just an additional bonus.

                      I’m actually not talking about demagoguery, but about justifying the concept of a single-seat attack helicopter from the Kamov Design Bureau.
                      Quote: JD1979
                      Where did you see half an hour?
                      And what's that?!
                      Quote: JD1979
                      helicopter lifespan on a high-tech battlefield from 30" to 1,5'.

                      Quote: JD1979
                      Because when they started hitting him in the face very hard, they immediately stopped flying, and then they completely shoved all the show-off-ground tactics into their ass and started flying only over their territory.
                      Everything is clear to you. Demagoguery and ignorance of reality. And where did the successful landing on Gostomel and its support until the arrival of the ground forces go? And if there are no landings, then flights for the LBS are not needed, and the corresponding tactics are used in action.

                      Quote: JD1979
                      And still, the losses are large, alligators, according to various sources, from 25 to 40 cars. 28x less, but only because they most likely were not allowed closer than 5 km to the LF, otherwise the losses there would have been prohibitive.
                      This is a big loss in TWO years of war?!

                      Quote: JD1979
                      Why didn’t you remember that those same turntables need even more people and equipment in addition?)) they also need to carry fuel and lubricants and ammunition)).
                      You've heard of airfields, or rather jumping sites, haven't you?
                      1. +1
                        16 February 2024 14: 14
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I’m actually not talking about demagoguery, but about justifying the concept of a single-seat attack helicopter from the Kamov Design Bureau.

                        Well, I’m talking about the same thing, but you’ve distorted the main message.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And what's that?!

                        And this is that you don’t know how time or coordinates are indicated))
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Everything is clear to you. Demagoguery and ignorance of reality. And where did the successful landing on Gostomel and its support until the arrival of the ground forces go? And if there are no landings, then flights for the LBS are not needed, and the corresponding tactics are used in action.

                        In fact, everything is clear with you)) Successful personal landings to you))
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This is a big loss in TWO years of war?!

                        Apparently not for you... women give birth. and behind the fence there is a line of trained top-class pilots. And where did you see the war?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        You've heard of airfields, or rather jumping sites, haven't you?

                        I heard I heard, and I also heard that in your toys everything appears there on its own))
          3. 0
            14 February 2024 19: 17
            Quote: Vladimir_2U

            They will also be dying for more than one generation, due to the increase in missile launch range.

            You should look at the rows of granite slabs in the helicopter shelves (16 slabs each) of the dead pilots. Of course, each accounted for hundreds of tons of destroyed equipment, but now their missions resemble tasks for suicide bombers. People of iron will!
            And this is even with the Ukrainian air defense echelons torn apart.
            The Americans understood this from other people's experience. It would be nice if it reached our people on our mortals!
            The war of the future - a company of UAV operators arrives and smashes a section of the front into dust.
            But air minibuses, yes, will exist for a long time, and here the convertoplanes of staff workers cause black envy.
            1. -2
              15 February 2024 03: 15
              Quote: ROSS_51
              Of course, each accounted for hundreds of tons of destroyed equipment, but now their missions resemble tasks for suicide bombers.

              That’s why they don’t write like that in thematic and very well-informed TG channels, and the rather rare reports about those shot down often turn out to be ukrovbros.
              1. +1
                15 February 2024 04: 23
                Quote: Vladimir_2U

                That’s why they don’t write like that in thematic and very well-informed TG channels, and the rather rare reports about those shot down often turn out to be ukrovbros.

                Because no one wants to run into discredit...
                See for yourself.
                1. -1
                  15 February 2024 05: 26
                  Quote: ROSS_51

                  Because no one wants to run into discredit...
                  See for yourself.

                  Eternal memory to the dead. Now let's count. 7 helicopters, half the squadron. In a year. The main part is at the beginning of the SVO. Where are the suicide bombers?
                  1. +1
                    15 February 2024 05: 39
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U

                    Eternal memory to the dead. Now let's count. 7 helicopters, half the squadron. In a year. The main part is at the beginning of the SVO. Where are the suicide bombers?

                    This alley was opened on May 9, 23rd. Not enough for you? I think the pilots will disagree with you. Me too.
            2. -1
              15 February 2024 08: 27
              this entire company of UAV operators is blown to pieces by one helicopter
              1. +1
                15 February 2024 17: 59
                Quote: Nastia Makarova
                this entire company of UAV operators is blown to pieces by one helicopter

                You and I live in different realities. With the modern saturation of the first line of MANPADS, the trench is something like this: the Ukrainians are trying to “smash something into dust.” Video 2 days.
                1. +1
                  15 February 2024 21: 33
                  In general, Stanislav Lem's joke-prediction "Peace on Earth" is beginning to come true... The swarms will steer, not really, but steer))
        2. +1
          14 February 2024 20: 21
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Except for attack helicopters, which, in my opinion, are already on their deathbed

          As long as there are all sorts of Papuans and Allah-Babahi in slippers, the drummers have work to do. The Hamasite Jews have been terrorizing them for four months now, including the Apaches. And when the Apaches run out due to natural wear and tear and aging, they will need to be replaced with something, so why not something like the Raiders? Another thing is that the pilot may well be sitting very far from the front wearing virtual reality glasses. Although, what kind of pilot is he then? Yes, operator.
          And against regular forces, saturated with MANPADS and air defense systems, disposable drones, if not better, are certainly cheaper than practically disposable manned attack helicopters.
          1. 0
            15 February 2024 04: 15
            Quote: Nagan
            As long as there are all sorts of Papuans and Allah-Babahi in slippers, the drummers have work

            Well, maybe against them! wink
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  3. +13
    14 February 2024 05: 16
    No slap in the face here, they just extract a suicide bomber from the scouts. And that’s all true. It would be a good idea to learn some Russian: “in Ukraine” hurts the eyes.
    1. 0
      14 February 2024 20: 23
      Quote: Prokop_Svinin
      It would be a good idea to learn some Russian: “in Ukraine” hurts the eyes.
      Those who are in the know write “to/to” without mentioning the country, and everyone understands that we are talking about country 404.lol
  4. +1
    14 February 2024 05: 19
    UAVs look much more preferable than helicopters, even if they are fast, stealthy, and well-armed. They can complete any helicopter mission, butperhaps delivery of personnel,
    And why is this suddenly? As a sanitary version, UAVs are quite competitively sufficient and are able to completely replace any manned aircraft, we are simply still accustomed to modern trends in the use of the latest technology, hence we still have outdated ideas about the widest capabilities and options for using UAVs.
  5. +2
    14 February 2024 05: 29
    The helicopter can only remain in the role of a flying 1) command center for controlling drones, 2) flying electronic warfare, 3) transport (perhaps over time it will give way to drones).
    Reconnaissance, strike functions and personnel transportation are all UAVs. Even transporting people does not require pilot training. One person who knows how to work with electronic cards on a tablet is enough. Probably all the young guys who travel can do this now. In China, drones are already transporting people - creating a military version for transporting squads will not take long. Perhaps the Chinese are already conducting tests.
    Perhaps helicopters will be needed to transport personnel in the mountains, where pilot skill is still needed in some situations.
    1. -2
      14 February 2024 07: 07
      Quote: Mekey Iptyshev
      helicopters will be needed to transport personnel in the mountains, where pilot skill is still needed in some situations.
      . In the mountains, the most dangerous place for using helicopters is that even the slightest piloting error is unacceptable and the pilot, even theoretically, due to the insufficient reaction speed to an unexpected air rotor, in principle, will not have enough reaction speed, but a non-inertial “robot” is able to work out what a person already knows -due to biological limitations, it is not available, the pilot’s reaction is, by definition, slow.
      1. 0
        14 February 2024 11: 31
        In the mountains, the most dangerous place for using helicopters is that even the slightest piloting error is unacceptable and the pilot, even theoretically, due to the insufficient reaction speed to an unexpected air rotor, in principle, will not have enough reaction speed, but a non-inertial “robot” is able to work out what a person already knows -due to biological limitations, it is not available, the pilot’s reaction is, by definition, slow.


        Well, well, have you flown a lot in the mountains to say that? lol
  6. -12
    14 February 2024 05: 32
    The US Army still plans to develop the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA), which is a type of medium-lift aircraft based on a tiltrotor

    American generals, with the tenacity of a rotary ditch digger, want to hook the army on these emergency vehicles! We'll have some fun here at VO when they start falling on the heads of law-abiding Americans wink wink
  7. -1
    14 February 2024 06: 20
    FARA, even with an increased range, will not be able to reach from its home base,

    And isn’t it easier to teach a helicopter to refuel without landing, from the surface of water or land? One such technology, not the most complex, solves a lot of problems and makes the transition to immature tiltrotors impractical.
    1. 0
      14 February 2024 06: 54
      Quote: ycuce234-san
      And isn’t it easier to teach a helicopter to refuel... One such technology, not the most complicated, solves a lot of problems and makes the transition to immature tiltrotors are impractical.
      But helicopter projects existed even in the time of Leonardo da Vinzi or even earlier. We can confidently say that this project (helicopter) is actually immature tiltrotor. Regarding refueling: You can tell me which refueling tank can be used to refuel helicopters at such low speeds, because refueling tiltrotors is much easier, the speeds there are already quite similar to airplane speeds. And if you don’t create even not quite mature tiltrotors, for example in UAV variants, then maturity will never come by definition. Although I myself am a supporter of creating fully mature models of tiltrotors, the problem here is essentially more in the brains of customers who are completely ignorant of this very new topic. If you still don’t agree with me, then I’m interested to know what exactly.
      1. -2
        14 February 2024 08: 39
        Quote: venaya
        We can confidently say that this project (helicopter) is actually an immature tiltrotor

        A tiltrotor is miscarriage engineering thought. Abortion victim someone's design idea. Nothing more than an example of interesting technology...
    2. +3
      14 February 2024 09: 45
      Quote: ycuce234-san
      FARA, even with an increased range, will not be able to reach from its home base,

      And isn’t it easier to teach a helicopter to refuel without landing, from the surface of water or land? One such technology, not the most complex, solves a lot of problems and makes the transition to immature tiltrotors impractical.

      Refueling helicopters is a very difficult thing.
      More complicated than an airplane. Air flows from the propeller, etc. I know work was carried out, but judging by the fact that it was not used, it ended badly
      Even planes that were used a long time ago take a long time for pilots to learn how to refuel.
      1. 0
        14 February 2024 10: 27
        I know work was carried out, but judging by the fact that it was not used, it ended badly

        Used, although not universally.
      2. +2
        14 February 2024 10: 57
        Quote: your1970
        Refueling helicopters is a very difficult thing.
        More complicated than an airplane. Air flows from the propeller, etc. I know work was carried out, but judging by the fact that it was not used, it ended badly

        Judging by the Yankees, everything ended well. IN THE USA do not like, know how, practice refueling of helicopters - "Chinooks", "Black Hawks" and "Stallions". These are mainly Special Forces and ACC vehicles.
        For this reason, the USAF even introduced a hose-cone system, although previously they held the bar with all their hands. smile

        It was easier for the Navy and Marine Corps. From the very beginning, their main system was UPAZ, because refueling was considered from the point of view of aircraft carriers, on which the tankers were slightly modified strikers (or not modified at all).
        1. +1
          14 February 2024 11: 01
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Judging by the Yankees, everything ended well

          I read about our work a long time ago.
          I repent, I’m a sinner, I admit my guilt - I didn’t know... recourse request feel
      3. 0
        14 February 2024 18: 18
        Quote: your1970
        Refueling helicopters is a very difficult thing.

        If you practice the airplane approach.
        But you can winch aboard a hovering helicopter with a fuel supply hose from the ship. For safety, tankers on board will be able to work in a tubular safety cage and their work will become no more dangerous than the work of a stropper.
        You can even automate it - if automation is widely used in modern times, then it will be refueled by an unmanned barge-drone, from which the helicopter itself will remove the hose, capturing it, for example, with an electromagnet from the water.
        1. 0
          14 February 2024 21: 54
          Quote: ycuce234-san
          Quote: your1970
          Refueling helicopters is a very difficult thing.

          If you practice the airplane approach.
          But you can winch aboard a hovering helicopter with a fuel supply hose from the ship. For safety, tankers on board will be able to work in a tubular safety cage and their work will become no more dangerous than the work of a stropper.
          You can even automate it - if automation is widely used in modern times, then it will be refueled by an unmanned barge-drone, from which the helicopter itself will remove the hose, capturing it, for example, with an electromagnet from the water.

          And helicopters also refuel from ships.
          I saw this video too.
          I think the British Lynx was on it.
          1. 0
            15 February 2024 11: 07
            Quote: SovAr238A
            And helicopters also refuel from ships.
            I saw this video too.
            I think the British Lynx was on it.

            Who doesn't get refueled from the deck?
            Here is an MH-60S refueling from the deck of DDG 53:

            But the British also refuel the Sea King from the deck:
    3. +1
      14 February 2024 13: 11
      Quote: ycuce234-san
      FARA, even with an increased range, will not be able to reach from its home base,

      And isn’t it easier to teach a helicopter to refuel without landing, from the surface of water or land? One such technology, not the most complex, solves a lot of problems and makes the transition to immature tiltrotors impractical.

      Actually, they already know how to do this.
      Those that require in-flight refueling for combat use have equipment.
      1. 0
        14 February 2024 18: 07
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Actually, they already know how to do this.

        That's it - Americans are secretly not happy with this opportunity. Otherwise, there is no point in introducing raw 'envelopes' like this.
        1. +3
          14 February 2024 18: 15
          Quote: ycuce234-san
          Quote: SovAr238A
          Actually, they already know how to do this.

          That's it - Americans are secretly not happy with this opportunity. Otherwise, there is no point in introducing raw 'envelopes' like this.

          The envelopes are not damp.
          Homegrown experts are telling us here that Osprey is terrible...
          Yes, not a cult one.
          Yes, there are accidents.
          But a lot of years have passed since the development of the Osprey, and a new car, developed from scratch, will be made normally.
  8. +3
    14 February 2024 06: 36
    They found (created) a good testing ground, they know how to extract benefit from everything, you can’t take it away... Many issues will be worked out by the adversaries at the expense of Mikol and Vanek...
  9. +3
    14 February 2024 07: 37
    One thing is clear to everyone: after the end of the war, many approaches to the use of weapons, tactics and the need for some kind of models will change. It's unavoidable
    1. 0
      14 February 2024 09: 51
      So Poland is being changed by the purchase of tanks and other things from South Korea.
      A lot of things are changing.
      We are waiting for tayaan. - sea and ocean wars at 5000 km/miles.
      Even without red lines and START agreements, it will come to mutual verification of the Yao Riad
  10. -6
    14 February 2024 08: 03
    During the SVO, we are clearly convinced that Russian weapons are superior to the much-hyped American weapons.
    Sorry, but the Kamov and Mil helicopters even outwardly look like a completed design with an optimized layout.
    American samples represent either overfed hogs, or gnawed skeletons, or flying bicycle models...
  11. +1
    14 February 2024 08: 04
    I can’t imagine what Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky and Lawrence “Larry” Bell would say, looking at how the brainchild of the companies that bear their names and work on the ideas of great designers are sent to the scrap heap of history.
    It’s very possible to imagine. So Sikorsky went bankrupt 2 times - first during the Great Depression (1929), then during the second wave of the crisis (1939), when his flying boats could not withstand competition with the Catalina. Only after that did he move on to helicopters.
    1. 0
      14 February 2024 11: 35
      Only after that did he move on to helicopters.


      When I learned about Cheryomukhin’s success.
      1. +1
        14 February 2024 18: 43
        When I learned about Cheryomukhin’s success.
        It is, of course, true, but if the Americans had a theater of operations like ours, then they would not have been able to produce any helicopters at all. Our squadron of Kamov autogyro-spotters was completely knocked out by the Germans in the Battle of Smolensk in 1941.
        1. +1
          14 February 2024 19: 15
          It is, of course, true, but if the Americans had a theater of operations like ours, then they would not have been able to produce any helicopters at all.


          The main thing is that we had neither free resources nor personnel.
          One thing is not clear to me, okay for the Americans he is an icon of helicopter engineering, but why do we make the same thing out of him? Despite the fact that all his inventions regarding helicopters are plagiarism.
          1. +1
            14 February 2024 20: 15
            The main thing is that we had neither free resources nor personnel.
            One thing is not clear to me, okay for the Americans he is an icon of helicopter engineering, but why do we make the same thing out of him? Despite the fact that all his inventions regarding helicopters are plagiarism.
            This is because of the servility of the magazines. Here I have a book about Sikorsky, published in 1981, by the Nauka publishing house. There, without all these deflections, all the stages of his activity are honestly given, including how he completely went bankrupt. And then, from the end of the 80s, books were flooded with groveling - this is how the great designer turned around in the “great” USA. And why did they, overseas, suddenly become “great”, not even “great” but just rich, no one writes about this. By the way, the designer of the B-29 “Superfortress” is an ethnic Bulgarian.
            1. +2
              14 February 2024 22: 22
              This is because of the servility of the magazines. Here I have a book about Sikorsky, published in 1981, by the Nauka publishing house.


              Sikorsky's undeniable merit is the creation of multi-engine aircraft, when there are hardly four engines on the wing. But this was in the Republic of Ingushetia, so the West is silent about it.
              1. 0
                15 February 2024 08: 06
                when four engines are hardly on the wing.
                He did this out of desperation - there were no powerful engines, but he needed a very heavy-duty airplane. And the engines were from a downed German zeppelin. Another thing is that having built a statically unstable airplane, he intuitively managed to achieve the period of its revolution due to instability of about 12 seconds, the pilot managed to fend off the handle. And then no one anywhere knew about flight dynamics, stability and controllability.
                1. +1
                  15 February 2024 14: 00
                  The Russian Knight and Ilya Muromets both flew in 1913, which downed German Zeppelin?
                  1. 0
                    15 February 2024 18: 24
                    And whose engines did they fly on? Did you install Motor Sich?
                    1. +1
                      15 February 2024 18: 27
                      German Argus.
                      But what does a downed airship have to do with it?
                      The imperialist war began in 1914, and airplanes flew for the first time since 1913.
                      1. -1
                        15 February 2024 22: 08
                        German Argus.
                        But what does a downed airship have to do with it?
                        I have a suspicion that after the start of WWI, the Germans supplied their engines exclusively from downed planes and airships.
                      2. +1
                        15 February 2024 22: 17
                        They began to install non-German engines: Russobalt, Sunbeam, Renault.
                      3. 0
                        16 February 2024 08: 34
                        They began to install non-German engines: Russobalt, Sunbeam, Renault.
                        How many Russobalts were there, can you tell me? But in fact, in the first series there were 100-horsepower "Argus", in the last - a 220-horsepower "Renault".
                      4. +1
                        16 February 2024 18: 03
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        But in fact, in the first series there were 100-horsepower "Argus", in the last - a 220-horsepower "Renault".

                        Yeah, from fallen airships. laughing

                        How many Russobalts were there, can you tell me?

                        Look at Shavrov's book.
                      5. 0
                        16 February 2024 20: 36
                        Thanks for the link. Where was the Russobalt engine made in 1918 and from what components?
                      6. +1
                        16 February 2024 21: 38
                        The first aircraft engines of the Soviet period are considered to be engines that actually had nothing to do with the Soviet regime. These are motors, the production of which was mastered even before the February Revolution, with
                        Tsar Nicholas II. Orders issued by the Military Department under the Tsar,
                        formally retained their power both under the Provisional Government and in
                        the first months of Bolshevik power. Despite traffic paralysis
                        systems, the collapse of the economy, complete uncertainty of political prospects, some enterprises continued their work by inertia, although
                        sharply reducing the rate of production until it finally stopped in February - March 1918.
                        Later, the types of engines that continued to be assembled at the end
                        1917 - early 1918, included in the system created in the 20s
                        designations of Soviet aircraft engines. There are only three such motors.
                        Firstly, this is the RBVZ-6 (“Russobalt”) designed by V.V. Kireeva. Such
                        300 engines were ordered for the Ilya Muromets bombers. The Russian-Baltic Motor Plant in Petrograd continued to assemble them until March 1918. According to another document, the order for 150 engines was canceled on January 25, 1918. The Russo-Balts were successfully operated in the Air Squadron ships with a good reputation. There
                        noted their high, for those times, reliability. This type is considered
                        the first Soviet aircraft engine to receive the designation M-1.
                        ...
                        As mentioned earlier, in 1914, the chairman of the board of the Russian-Baltic plant, Shidlovsky, announced a competition to create an aircraft engine that could replace the imported Argus on bombers
                        "Ilya Muromets". Two groups took part in the competition. Alone, guided
                        V.V. Kireev, worked at the RBVZ plant in Riga, another, subordinate
                        directly I.I. Sikorsky, - at the RBVZ Mechanical Plant in
                        Petrograd.
                        Kireev's RBVZ-6 engine was based on the design of the Benz engine
                        at 150 hp But it was not an exact copy of its prototype, but adapted to those available in Russia
                        materials and equipment.
                        Kireev's motor was recognized as the best
                        and prepared for its serial production in Riga. They managed to build there
                        the first five copies are actually experimental. But the surrender of Riga to the Germans led to the evacuation of the plant to
                        Petrograd. They specially created it there
                        RBVZ motor plant on the leased territory of former wineries
                        warehouses The plant was considered temporary
                        before the completion of the new enterprise
                        RBVZ in Fili near Moscow.
                        In July 1916 at the Motor Plant
                        made another test batch from
                        five engines, and then began fulfilling the order of the Air Fleet Administration. In March 1917 it was
                        25 pieces ready, 39 in September.


                        A total of 45 RBVZ-6 were manufactured in Petrograd. According to V. Mikheev, more
                        about 20 engines were assembled later from the existing stock in Fili.
                        Features:
                        • 6-cylinder in-line, water-cooled, gearless;
                        • cylinder diameter/piston stroke 130/180 mm;
                        • volume 86,1 l;
                        • power 150 hp;
                        • weight 292 kg.
                        Installed on Ilya Muromets series “B” and “G” aircraft.

                        /Kotelnikov V.R.
                        K73 Domestic aviation piston engines (1910–2009)/
                        V.R. Kotelnikov. — M.: Russian Foundation for the Promotion of Education and
                        Science, 2010 - 504 p.
                      7. 0
                        16 February 2024 21: 52
                        Thanks for the info. Did you really make the components yourself?
                      8. +1
                        17 February 2024 10: 07
                        It turns out that way.
                        After the outbreak of World War I, the Russian-Baltic Carriage Works (RBVZ) became involved in aircraft engine production. It was a big company
                        specializing in transport engineering. She had
                        several factories in Riga and Petrograd, which built not only carriages, but also cars and airplanes. The list of RBVZ products included Russobalt cars and trucks and the famous bombers
                        "Ilya Muromets". Engines for cars were made by the RBVZ plant in Riga, and
                        Argus aircraft engines for Muromets were imported from Germany.
                        When the Germans and Russians became enemies, the import of Argus stopped.
                        It was necessary to find an alternative motor mount for the Muromets. In the fall of 1914, Chairman of the Board of the RBVZ M.V. Shidlovsky announced a competition
                        to create a domestic aircraft engine that could replace the Argus.
                        Two groups took part in the competition. One, led by V.V. Kireev,
                        worked at the RBVZ plant in Riga, another, reporting directly
                        I.I. Sikorsky, - at the RBVZ Mechanical Plant in Petrograd.
                        The Sikorsky engine, called MRB-6 (“Russian-Baltic Motor-6”), copied the Argus with 140 hp. Kireev's RBVZ-6 engine was based on the design of the 150 hp Benz engine. Both of them were 6-cylinder in-line water-cooled engines. But neither MRB-6 nor RBVZ-6 were
                        exact copies of their prototypes, but adapted to those available in
                        Russia for materials and equipment, as well as component parts.
                        Kireev's motor was recognized as the best and was being prepared for serial production in Riga. They managed to build the first five copies there, in fact
                        experienced. But the surrender of Riga to the Germans in 1915 led to the evacuation of the plant to
                        Petrograd. Some of the equipment was abandoned at the old location. Trains
                        with machine tools interfered with military echelons going to the front, and carriages
                        thrown downhill. The plant virtually ceased to exist.
                        ...
                        Firstly, this is the RBVZ-6 (“Russobalt”) designed by V.V. Kireeva. Such
                        300 engines were ordered for the Ilya Muromets bombers. The Russian-Baltic Motor Plant in Petrograd continued to assemble them until March 1918. According to another document, the order for 150 engines was canceled on January 25, 1918. The Russo-Balts were successfully operated in the Air Squadron ships with a good reputation. There
                        noted their high, for those times, reliability. This type is considered
                        the first Soviet aircraft engine to receive the designation M-1.
  12. The comment was deleted.
    1. +2
      14 February 2024 11: 39
      3. Helicopters have a lot of tasks, including on the battlefield, where no one can replace them yet. The tactics are subject to immediate review. But that's another question.
      It is clear that new means of protection will appear for helicopters.


      It requires not a revision, but a return. Otherwise, they leaked the entire Soviet experience, and that’s the loss.
      1. +1
        14 February 2024 23: 47
        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
        Otherwise, they leaked the entire Soviet experience, and that’s the loss.

        Can you at least briefly tell us what the essence of that “merged experience” is, which would allow us to avoid the loss of helicopters in the Northern Military District?
        1. 0
          15 February 2024 12: 13
          Can you at least briefly tell us what the essence of that “merged experience” is, which would allow us to avoid the loss of helicopters in the Northern Military District?


          They work in pairs instead of teams, launch ATGMs from hover, and use helicopters for purposes other than their intended purpose.
          1. +1
            15 February 2024 12: 42
            Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
            launch ATGM from hover

            How should an ATGM be launched?
            1. 0
              15 February 2024 14: 13
              How should an ATGM be launched?


              At speed, at extremely low altitude and maneuvering.
              1. +1
                15 February 2024 15: 13
                Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                At speed, at extremely low altitude and maneuvering.

                The first question: how to keep the aiming mark on the target?
                Second question: does all of the above provide invulnerability from MANPADS?
                1. 0
                  17 February 2024 13: 06
                  The first question: how to keep the aiming mark on the target?


                  Easy and simple, the Rainbow sight has stabilization. The main thing is not to exceed the restrictions in heading and pitch.

                  Second question: does all of the above provide invulnerability from MANPADS?


                  The lower the height, the more difficult it is for the MANPADS operator to notice you. In addition, no matter what they say, the seeker has big problems in acquiring a target against the background of the ground.
                  1. 0
                    17 February 2024 13: 16
                    Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                    Easy and simple, the Rainbow sight has stabilization. The main thing is not to exceed the restrictions in heading and pitch.

                    Well, that means we need to somehow convey this information to the operators of the Ka-52 and Mi-28.

                    Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                    The lower the height, the more difficult it is for the MANPADS operator to notice you.

                    It is no more difficult than for a helicopter crew to spot targets on the ground.
  13. 0
    14 February 2024 09: 34
    And the Bell 360 Invictus is really good! In the photo - just handsome! Sorry for the bird...
  14. +4
    14 February 2024 09: 38
    To paraphrase the famous advertising slogan of the 90s, we can formulate the creative credo of such publications: “The content is nothing - the headline is everything!”
    The closure of weapons and military equipment programs occurs regularly in all countries that develop this very military equipment and weapons. Military actions are studied in order to choose the right direction for the development of the armed forces in general and weapons and military equipment in particular.
    In 2009, the United States, having spent four and a half billion dollars, closed the project of a transport helicopter for the ILC - Lockheed Martin VH-71 Kestrel. And no one anywhere said that Lockheed Martin was slapped in the face. By the way, according to American data, they managed to spend a little more than two billion on the Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft program.
    And there are a dozen such examples for American helicopters alone, starting with the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne attack helicopter, which was created under the AAFSS program and which was closed since the Vietnam War ended.
    1. +2
      14 February 2024 10: 42
      Quote: Dekabrist
      In 2009, the United States, having spent four and a half billion dollars, closed the project of a transport helicopter for the ILC - Lockheed Martin VH-71 Kestrel. And no one anywhere said that Lockheed Martin was slapped in the face.

      Hehehehe... the whole joke is that for Boeing-Sikorsky this is already second the program of a light reconnaissance and attack helicopter to replace the Kiowa, closed by the army. Last time the program was called LHX, for which they even managed to build two aircraft in iron and received the army name of the model - RAH-66 Comanche. What can I say - they even made a computer game based on LHX. Under DOS. smile
      And for Bell this is also the second program for a vehicle of this class - after the ARH-70 Arapaho.
      1. +3
        14 February 2024 16: 39
        the whole joke is that

        There is one more "joke" here. After all, all the developments under this program, which, for the most part, were paid for by the American Department of Defense, will remain with the companies and can be used to improve serial products or develop new models, even civilian ones.
  15. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. -1
        14 February 2024 12: 53
        I don't understand, do you agree or disagree?
        Until 2014 nowhere, no one said “in Ukraine”.
        Taras Shevchenko (Ukrainian poet) wrote in the 19th century - IN MY darling Ukraine....
        Already in our years, dill, in the heat of anti-Russian fervor, they began to massively say “in Ukraine.”
        I have a question: where, under what circumstances, did the author of the article let “in Ukraine” into his brain? He could not hear such a form during the period of his personality formation; no one spoke like that. To start saying “in Ukraine” you need to constantly hear this form from those around you. Does Aator live in Ukraine? Another option is to say this deliberately, thereby emphasizing your pro-Ukrainian position.
        “In” or “On” Ukraine is like a mark, friend or foe.
        1. -1
          14 February 2024 13: 48
          What's unclear? In Ukraine, the Caucasus, the Urals. In the Ukrainian state, in Bashkiria, in Dagestan. Everything is in Russian. But in Ukraine or Dagestan it turns out completely clumsily.
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. 0
    14 February 2024 10: 33
    Indeed, a very unexpected thing happened: not only did the US Army decide to cancel the Future Attack Recon Aircraft program, it was also announced that this was all part of a larger shake-up in future Army aviation plans.

    Hehehehe... new reconnaissance and attack helicopters in the US Army are damn place. ©
    For the army abandoned FARA’s predecessor in the same way, although already at the prototype stage. But the LHX / RAH-66 Comanche was made in exactly the same way to replace the OH-58.
    A helicopter today is too slow, large and vulnerable. What can I say if cases of helicopters being hit by ATGMs have already been recorded...

    Hmm... actually, helicopters became one of the targets of anti-tank systems back in the 80s of the last century. The same NATO HOT or our “Attack” were developed, among other things, to combat helicopters.
  19. 0
    14 February 2024 10: 35
    The use of Apaches in this role, in turn, followed years of failed attempts to find a direct replacement for the OH-58D.


    This is wrong. It's because:
    - The Apaches themselves have become much more advanced
    - There was a direct connection between Apache-UAV and Radar and more advanced avionics (data exchange, radar, optics)
    - UAVs of various types appeared en masse.
  20. 0
    14 February 2024 10: 40
    At one time, tanks were buried. Much and intensely
    1. +3
      14 February 2024 13: 24
      Quote: Pimply
      At one time, tanks were buried. Much and intensely

      At one time, dreadnoughts and battleships were buried. Which seemed eternal.
      And they buried them in the end
      It's the same with cruisers.
      Flying boats were also buried. Which also seemed eternal at certain times.
      High-altitude reconnaissance aircraft were buried. Torpedo bombers buried the planes. The torpedo boats were buried.
      They buried the naval artillery of large and extra-large calibers; if they had seen a ship without such guns, even 70-80 years ago any naval sailor would have twisted his head...
      We also see the funeral of clean, highly specialized, fighter-interceptor, clean missile boats.
      The funeral of clean tanks is also just around the corner. Armored vehicles will transform into something else.
      He still doesn’t know how or what.
      But everyone already understands that a classic tank is no longer a warrior in the field.
      1. 0
        14 February 2024 13: 54
        Quote: SovAr238A
        It's the same with cruisers.

        The cruisers remained. They even place of application has not changed - either the basis of the KUG or the escort AB.
        It’s just now difficult to say where the EM URO ends and the CR URO begins. The last "Burks" and their foreign cousins ​​are already crawling into the URO missile defense system.
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Torpedo bombers buried the planes.

        Not really. They mutated into rocket carriers. Moreover, the first iteration also carried NARs - the same “Rockbye” from the attack wings of the Lime Coastal Command, which first ensured that the “Torbye” went on the attack, and then took their place (because the NAR was enough for typical purposes of coastal aviation).
        Quote: SovAr238A
        The torpedo boats were buried.

        Likewise. TKA mutated into RKA - it’s not for nothing that the first RKA projects were built in the buildings of the latest TKA projects.
        Quote: SovAr238A
        They buried the naval artillery of large and extra-large calibers; if they had seen a ship without such guns, even 70-80 years ago any naval sailor would have twisted his head...

        It depends on what he sees. If the ships have onboard anti-ship missile launchers, then his first question would be “do you already measure the diameter of the main caliber in meters?” smile
        Quote: SovAr238A
        But everyone already understands that a classic tank is no longer a warrior in the field.

        And he hasn’t been since WWI in the field as a warrior. The key to successful BTV operations has always been the interaction of tanks with infantry, artillery and air defense/air force. Especially in the case of NPP, which, in fact, is what tanks are doing now due to the lack of operational-scale tank formations.
      2. 0
        14 February 2024 14: 03
        I think its capabilities will be wider, it will simply add air defense, electronic warfare, and most likely autonomy.
    2. 0
      14 February 2024 14: 40
      Take the counterattack and actions of the Ka52. Yes, you can bury it. And on our side now there are tanks and FPV. The offensive fails. But a tank is the strongest vehicle on the battlefield. Do not have another one
  21. -5
    14 February 2024 11: 43
    We hope that the lobbyists will not let the Pentagon slip away. Let them sculpt a new Zumvolt, even more expensive aircraft carriers, Bradleys and other WundeWaffe, such as the F-35.
  22. 0
    14 February 2024 13: 49
    Is a high-speed helicopter unnecessary in the civilian sphere?
    1. +1
      14 February 2024 14: 42
      For what? This is from the supersonic jet series. There are turboprops for every taste. There are short takeoff and landing planes with large wheels.....and a propeller.
  23. -3
    14 February 2024 13: 57
    Only the propulsion system we have developed can open up a progressive future for aviation.
  24. -1
    14 February 2024 15: 01
    With the development of drones, helicopters in general are losing their attractiveness and importance for the armies of the world. Whether someone likes it or not, it is cheaper, more profitable and more convenient to send a flock of disposable cheap drones into the sky than an expensive machine that still cannot fully show itself due to the development of air defense. And people's lives are at risk
  25. +4
    14 February 2024 15: 36
    How the branch was cleaned. It turns out that people who don’t have a clue about the topic can write articles, but professionals cannot criticize. lol
    1. 0
      14 February 2024 17: 39
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      How the branch was cleaned. It turns out that people who don’t have a clue about the topic can write articles, but professionals cannot criticize.

      In that comment you spoke poorly about the American practice of launching ATGMs from hover, and the server is American. Yes
  26. -6
    14 February 2024 16: 36
    Skomorokhov,

    Quote: In the conditions of modern warfare, which is observed today in the Northern Military District, the helicopter turned out to be a very expensive and vulnerable machine.

    Complete nonsense! The Ka-52 proved to be super effective in its own right. Since the 80s, no new systems have been created that could increase the vulnerability of helicopters, but our helicopters were equipped with the Vitebsk BKO, which actually nullified the Stingers.

    The future belongs to the combination: helicopter-UAV.
    1. +2
      16 February 2024 13: 58
      Quote from Savage3000
      Skomorokhov,

      Quote: In the conditions of modern warfare, which is observed today in the Northern Military District, the helicopter turned out to be a very expensive and vulnerable machine.

      Complete nonsense! The Ka-52 proved to be super effective in its own right. Since the 80s, no new systems have been created that could increase the vulnerability of helicopters, but our helicopters were equipped with the Vitebsk BKO, which actually nullified the Stingers.

      The future belongs to the combination: helicopter-UAV.


      How many KA-52s were shot down? Only in reality and not in numbers on TV. Not a little, not a lot, not a little. How much does one Ka-52 cost? One billion rubles, minimum. How much does a lancet cost - they say on the Internet that 35 thousand dollars, that is, 3.5 million rubles or even 3. That is, for one Ka-52 we get 300 lancets. And this means 300 targets hit and no casualties for people. Well, ok, we think that only 70% of targets are hit, I still have serious doubts that the KA-52 has comparable effectiveness.
      These helicopters are very good when you are fighting against people without air defense, but against a country... much worse.
      Another disadvantage is that the helicopter cannot fly behind the front line; it is finished there; it can only fly near this line and hit what is at the front, but it will not get close to the rear. The drone, the same lancet of the latest modification, seems to be able to fly almost 150 km, which means that the highmars and rszos are different and the paladins are all under threat
      1. 0
        8 March 2024 13: 58
        Newtc, the main losses were precisely from the incorrect use of the Ka-52, when they were sent deep into the core territory.

        The lancet is not and cannot replace a helicopter. The helicopter is a direct support for troops on the battlefield. The Lancet can't do that.

        PS, about their effectiveness... you need to count how many of them were shot down and how many Bradleys and leopards they knocked out. I'm sure the score will be in favor of the Ka-52.
  27. -2
    14 February 2024 16: 38
    And about Sikorsky and Bell... don’t feel sorry for them, they will sell their developments to China. And China will fly ultra-modern helicopters.
  28. +3
    14 February 2024 20: 44
    Is human life starting to become more expensive?
    Quite simplified...
    It is better to make an expensive robot, teach it to fly, swim, crawl and shoot at the enemy, and if it is shot down, then assemble a new one, than to teach a person for several years, give him the opportunity to fly, swim, crawl and shoot at the enemy, and if he is killed, then years 25 new things to give birth to, raise and teach.
    1. +1
      18 February 2024 01: 12
      Quote from Fangaro
      Is human life starting to become more expensive?
      Quite simplified...
      It is better to make an expensive robot, teach it to fly, swim, crawl and shoot at the enemy, and if it is shot down, then assemble a new one, than to teach a person for several years, give him the opportunity to fly, swim, crawl and shoot at the enemy, and if he is killed, then years 25 new things to give birth to, raise and teach.


      So, taking into account the fact that the robot is not at all expensive compared to a car in which there will be people, but just much cheaper... yes, the robot is more profitable
  29. -3
    15 February 2024 07: 15
    Author????
    Sikorsky and Bell were truly outstanding designers. Although Sikorsky worked for our Enemy. Against your homeland.
    But in the article, “cry” for the careless Americans.
    As for me:
    - The worse it is for the Americans, the better it is for Russia.
  30. 0
    15 February 2024 18: 51
    They couldn’t strain the budget with lobbying and throw taxpayers’ money down the drain as usual. By the way, why did we go down their path?!
  31. 0
    16 February 2024 03: 53
    I have a suspicion that drones in the form of slow mopeds will last until the air defense aimed at them is brought up. And then they will be closer and closer to missiles, which will have speed at the expense of range. And they will need a secure mobile platform to deliver to the front. In general, I would not hide the current developments on helicopters.
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 16: 38
      Quote: Naked Man
      I have a suspicion that drones in the form of slow mopeds will last until the air defense aimed at them is brought up. And then they will be closer and closer to missiles, which will have speed at the expense of range. And they will need a secure mobile platform to deliver to the front. In general, I would not hide the current developments on helicopters.


      You can already create such air defense now; mopeds are not a problem at all. All you need are radars on top of the balloons and all the mopeds will be in full view and can be shot out of a cannon in batches at any moment.
      And drones will soon become as small as possible, this is strength in small size and quantity
  32. 0
    19 February 2024 22: 54
    From Ukraine the bell rang not only for helicopters, but also for tanks. And this is the answer to the question, what are the Americans, British and Germans doing there? They study not only a possible enemy, but also modern trends in weapons.
    1. 0
      8 March 2024 13: 59
      Nord, only one thing was said for tanks: we urgently need a Kaz, modified for UAVs.
  33. 0
    Today, 10: 25
    Против бармалеев вертолет лучше.