Rafale plays, Su-30 wins

64
Rafale plays, Su-30 wins

Now many advanced users can easily notice: yes, these are aircraft of different classes, oak head! And how can we compare them, if we compare the Rafale, then with its classmates! That is, with the same MiG-35.

Don’t even write like that in the comments, I immediately agree with all the claims made. The author, as is often written today, is not so much off topic, but in a misunderstanding of how this even happens: they are tendering for the Rafale, but in the end they are buying the Su-30MK. And if this were an isolated incident, then no! However, I would risk convincing someone else of my misunderstanding.



So, "Rafal" or "Shkval"


History This aircraft is very distinctive and original. In general, if this aircraft had appeared on the world stage when it was developed, perhaps a lot would have gone wrong. After all, the first flight of the Rafale took place in July 1986, and the decision to accept this aircraft into service with the French Air Force and Marine aviation was adopted only in 2004. 18 years is a very thoughtful figure, which suggests that either the plane was originally rubbish, and it was “finished off” for so many years, or about the short-sightedness of the French military department.

The aircraft itself is very interesting, it has a good speed even today (2200 km/h), a simply gorgeous combat radius of almost 1400 km, however, with three anti-tank tanks, which reduces the combat load.

The combat load is quite reasonable: 9 tons of bombs and missiles, and it can also carry SCALP/Storm Shadow. And so - the entire NATO nomenclature is hung easily and naturally. Fire control systems allow the use of all the splendor, which makes the Rafale a versatile multi-mission aircraft.

And the plane fought, albeit in “light mode”, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq (against ISIS). That is, where there were not only no equal opponents in the sky, there was no enemy as such in the sky. But it gained recognition and other countries began to order it.

The list of those who bought the Rafale is small: Greece, India, Qatar, Egypt.


It seems that (if there is money for it) Croatia can still be added to this list. But more tenders were lost, some for clearly political reasons, as happened with Brazil.

In general, initially the French behaved in a very “mistral” way: they inflated the performance characteristics of the aircraft, misleading customers, they say that they were more than arrogant in the negotiations and set deliberately inconvenient conditions. As a result of this, the Rafale found itself at the bottom of the tender lists in terms of benefits, even becoming known as the most expensive fighter of the 4++ generation. Moreover, it is unreasonably expensive.

That is why tenders were lost in South Korea, Singapore, UAE, Morocco, Switzerland and Brazil. In Brazil, we note that politics was to blame for everything: if France had not “dumped” President da Silva with his initiative on the Iranian nuclear program (I emphasize that the initiative was practically agreed upon at the UN, but France turned on the “reverse gear”), as a result of which da Silva buried the idea of ​​arming himself with Rafales, instead of which the Griffins from SAAB won.

And as you know, if you don’t score, they score on you. After the nightmare of the early nineties, when Russia practically stopped producing any aircraft, the combat aircraft market was in thought: write Russia off and start purchasing American or European aircraft, or wait?

Those who decided to wait were rewarded, because the Su-30, born in cooperation with India (read - with Indian money, they somehow didn’t have any of their own back then), turned out to be not just a wonderful aircraft, in the 21st century there is not a single heavy one at all the fighter was not bought in such quantities as the Su-30.


And just as the MiG-21 was a hit in Soviet times, the Su-30 became such a hit in Russia. Of course, the popularity of the MiG-21 is far from “drying”, but nevertheless, the fighter has become the basis of the air forces of several large countries: India, China, Vietnam and Algeria. And even if you don’t take Uganda-Armenia-Belarus, which have single copies of the Su-30, Venezuela and Kazakhstan are understandable, but Malaysia and Indonesia, which were not at all noticed to be partial to Russian weapons, ordered normal batches of aircraft.

And China, in its usual manner, bungled the J-16, which is simply disgracefully similar to both the Su-27 and Su-30, and which is being mass-produced in decent quantities. But if you look at all the movements around Taiwan, then for some reason the Su-35 and J-20, the most valuable and modern aircraft of the PLA Air Force, do not appear in the videos. But the Su-30MKK is “stars on the carpet.”


Su-30MKK over the Taiwan Strait. Photo by PLA Air Force

The Su-30MK returned Russia to the international market with relative ease. And the main victim, oddly enough, was the Rafale. In the early nineties, the French very actively entered the world market, moreover, into the segment that Russia inherited from the USSR. And, naturally, they went with the Rafale, because they did something stupid: they stopped production of the Mirage 2000, which, although morally outdated, was of interest to many not very rich countries.

Negotiations, advertising displays, banquets, exhibitions, cultural communication - promoting such a complex product as an airplane requires both time and money. And then suddenly, practically kicking the door out, Russians and Indians burst into the market (the latter are also selling almost their Su-30s), dragging the Su-30 behind them.

And all those who looked back at Russia, asking the price of Mirages, Rafales, and Falcons, immediately turned towards the Russian aircraft. The same Vietnamese military who were torn between choosing between the Rafale version “C” (at that time as damp as grass after a thunderstorm) and the frankly already outdated F-16 Block 50/52.


And here it is, the moment of truth! Rafale and F-16 are classmates, but the Su-30 is not. It is more likely to be a brother of the F-15, only it will be even slightly heavier.

But sorry, for most buyers this doesn't really matter.

What do the military want? Buy aircraft that would meet their needs in terms of performance characteristics and performing missions in the air in accordance with defense doctrines.

What do government leaders want? Buy as cheaply as possible, and with an eye to the future.

If the Su-30 is cheaper than the Rafale, and in many ways superior to the French aircraft... And this is not a reproach at all, the Rafale, despite its age and difficult modernization path, is a very good combat vehicle! The Su-30 is just head and shoulders better.

The Vietnamese have almost already agreed to buy the Rafale, but the problem is the Su-30... The deal was eventually canceled, and Vietnam acquired 36 vehicles, which are now up to the level of the Su-30SM. In fact, it is the penultimate version of the aircraft, if you don’t count the Su-30SMD (serial, modernized, modified), because “revision” is about 2% of imported components removed from the design. In all its characteristics, the Su-30SM is no different from the Su-30SMD.

In Algeria, they actually organized a natural competition for several days, as a result of which they forgot about the Rafale.


Libya. There, too, the Rafale was denied a place, the competition was won by the Su-30MKA (version for Algeria), but the Rafale returned, but the head of Libya, Gaddafi, did not see his Su-30s, although the contract was signed. Well, you all remember what they did with Libya, and the Rafales took part there in full. It is a pity that Russia did not manage to deliver the ordered aircraft to Libya; it would be informative to get acquainted with the results.


Venezuela. Everything happened there so quickly that they didn’t have time to open the champagne.

Well, in the end, just a few words about how the Rafale miserably lost the Su-30MKM tenders in Malaysia and Indonesia. Considering that neither the first nor the second country were regular clients of Russia in terms of weapons, this says a lot.

In fact, Rafale only once defeated a Russian aircraft in a tender, but with reservations.

This, as you understand, is all about India and its scandalous long-running and sluggish MMRCA competition. But the Su-30 did not take part in it for a very good reason - the Su-30MKI by that time had become the main fighter, fighter-bomber and anti-ship missile carrier in the Indian Air Force. And will continue to remain so for many years to come. Despite the fact that the Chief Marshal of the Indian Air Force recently called the Su-30 a “completely Indian aircraft,” the country still regularly buys 10-12 SK-30MKI vehicle sets per year. In principle, you can endure such attacks for that kind of money.

As for the Rafale’s victory over the MiG-35, everything is clear: a real-life aircraft is of course preferable to a project that is not really in the metal. The MiG-35, which exists in the form of six flight prototypes, will no longer be of interest to anyone in the world: it is customary to buy aircraft that have proven themselves in the sky.

In this regard, the experiment with the Su-30 was still a gamble from the point of view of the Indians, but they bet on Irkut and the Sukhoi Design Bureau and won the plane for themselves. But with the MiG-35, such a miracle obviously will not happen again, so even here everyone is slowly forgetting about the plane. Well, it didn’t take off, it happens.

But overall, the victory was clearly Pyrrhic. The Indian TV series "MMRCA" will be remembered for a long time in the country. And it’s not about scandals, intrigues, conspiracies and massacres. Although it was like in the series, in abundance. The fact is that by paying for one Rafale as for a Su-30MKI, India received literally crumbs of aircraft (126 were ordered), which are not yet combat-ready. But these are really not our problems. India didn’t want to repeat the success with the Su-30, but with the MiG-35 - why not? Their choice.

As a result, scandals, resignations, criminal cases...

But the idea was not bad: buy Rafales and replace them with Mirages 2000, which have been serving in the Indian Air Force since 1985. The Mirages, together with the MiG-29, showed themselves very well in the Kargil War. "Rafal" instead of "Mirage", Su-30MKI instead of MiG-29 and MiG-21 - the Indian Air Force would really become the strongest in the region. And in terms of mass numbers, there is order.


But what makes plans so bad is that they don’t have to come true at all.

And here we come close to what made the Su-30MKI (and not only the MKI) such a terrible contender in the tender war.


Do you remember what the ambush of the Rafale contract was? The fact is that the French promised one thing, but in reality something completely different happened. The French categorically refused to transfer technology to the Indians and organize the localization of aircraft assembly in India. Cunningly drawn up contracts made it possible to arrange this, dare I say it, scam.

Then the French simply stopped assembling aircraft for India. First the crisis, then the pandemic, then the post-pandemic crisis. There is simply no time to work. At the Indian Ministry of Defense, the marshals were furious, but they could not do anything. There, the price of 218 euros for the aircraft was accompanied by a bonus penalty for refusal to purchase almost half the cost of the aircraft.

The only thing that Indian lawyers were able to do was to reduce the number of aircraft purchased under the contract from 126 to 36. And they decided to abandon the purchase of fuel tankers for Rafales based on the Airbus A-330 for another one and a half billion euros. The fact that it was impossible to constructively refuel French aircraft from India's existing Il-78MKI tankers was the last straw.

When the time came for anti-Russian sanctions, France expectedly rubbed its hands together. Of course, there would be an opportunity to settle scores and remove such a competitor!

Indeed, this is what happened in Egypt and Indonesia.


And now the air forces of these countries will become the proud owners of Rafales instead of the Su-35 and Su-30. US pressure is a serious thing. And the fact that the French entered the market with the Rafales came back to haunt them with the loss of a contract to build submarines for Australia. But that's just business.

However, those who are independent and truly independent continue to vote with their dollars for Russian aircraft, no matter what.


Kazakhstan. They also danced a cotillion there for a long time, trying to conclude a contract for the supply of Rafales. Alas, in Kazakhstan they preferred the Su-30. Yes, the purchase of 12 aircraft cannot be called a large batch, but Kazakhstan does not have tasks that require 120 aircraft. And 12 Su-30SM2 are a very serious force in the region.

Ethiopia. For ten years the French have been hammering the military of this country, trying to deliver the Rafale. For ten years the French have been trying to enter the African market, which, let’s say, is not very large. African countries have big desires, but tiny budgets, and countries with money can be counted on one hand.

And then in January it became known that the Su-30 won.


The photo shows a Su-30MKI of the Uganda Air Force

A pleasant moment and not only in financial terms. And here I would like to say precisely on the topic of why, despite all today’s Russophobia, Russian aircraft are not abandoned.

How does the Russian approach differ from the French one?


Yes, still the same: they have trade weapons, like everyone else, according to the law “just business.” In Russia it is more difficult, and historically. The very attitude of the French towards customers is somewhat different than on our side. It (the ratio) can be measured in “mistrals”.

How many modifications have the French created for the Rafale? By and large - not much. M and N are single- and double-seat carrier-based aircraft, VM is a carrier of nuclear weapons, and two modifications each (1- and 2-seat, respectively) for Egypt and India. Over the 38 years of the model’s existence and 23 years of service, well, the French didn’t strain themselves too much.

With the Su-30 everything is somewhat different. Over 32 years of operation and 34 years since the first flight, 17 modifications were created, several of them were created specifically for the customer: India, China, Vietnam, Venezuela, Algeria, Indonesia. By the way, the French made modifications for Egypt and India with an eye on the work of our designers.

In addition, it has always been easy to negotiate with the Russians in terms of obtaining technologies and licenses. And some didn’t bother themselves much with this, and that’s okay. There were never any conflicts.


The Su-30, no matter what letters appear after the numbers, is a wonderful aircraft. This is modernity, a complete platform, flexibility in terms of technical appearance, integration and configuration according to the customer’s wishes, and the possibility of technology transfer. Together with excellent flight characteristics, all this makes up the essence of the Su-30 aircraft, which, as many people think, will be a relevant participant in the global arms market for a long time.


The Rafale is in its own way a very good aircraft that is capable of fighting for a place in the market, but the main problem of the Rafale lies in the political plane and depends on the French government officials who are trying to sell the aircraft.

So, despite the fact that the aircraft are actually different classes, the Rafal will still be competing with the Su-30 at tenders for a long time. And no matter how much pressure is exerted from the NATO bloc and no matter what promises are made, there is confidence that the Russian plane will still more often prevail over the French one.
  • Roman Skomorokhov
  • nosoldat.net, wallpaper.mob.org, kienthuc.net.vn, bestlj.ru, sdelanounas.ru, military-history.fandom.com
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  1. +12
    February 7 2024
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov

    And what a hit the MiG-21 was in Soviet times, so the Su-30 became in Russia

    The Su-30 is just a very good and solid machine that fits perfectly into modern realities. But the MiG-21 is a real hit! And a hit with a capital letter!
    1. +10
      February 7 2024
      The author mixed everything up - years, modifications, victories, defeats... in the end it turns out everything led to the celebration of victory in the Ethiopian tender laughing
      The Russian side was able to sell the last six of the 18 Su-30K fighters returned by India to Ethiopia.

      Su-30K (T-10PK) fighters are “transitional” aircraft, built as the first 18 aircraft at the Irkutsk Aviation Plant of Irkut Corporation JSC (now United Aircraft Corporation JSC) for delivery to India under the Su-30MKI program agreements of 1996 and 1998. Su-30K aircraft (serial numbers from 04-01 to 04-10 and from 05-01 to 05-08) were delivered to the Indian Air Force in 1997-1999, but were returned under the agreement of December 2005 by the Indian side of the Irkut Corporation in exchange for the supply to India of 18 new full-fledged Irkutsk-made Su-30MKI fighters in 2007.

      And they did the right thing by selling it.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      February 7 2024
      A hit that is still in service! And it will serve for decades to come! soldier good
    3. 0
      February 7 2024
      Only now the air battle of the Indian MiG-21 and Su-30 against the far from new Pakistani F-16s ended in victory for the Pakistanis.
      1. +4
        February 7 2024
        Quote from solar
        Only now the air battle of the Indian MiG-21 and Su-30 against the far from new Pakistani F-16s ended in victory for the Pakistanis.

        In addition to dry numbers from technical characteristics, there is also the human factor, plus pilot training
        1. +1
          February 7 2024
          Just a real air battle is a comprehensive assessment. Real aircraft with real pilots are evaluated, not paper specifications.
        2. +3
          February 7 2024
          The most important thing there is reconnaissance, target designation and radar field. Well, in isolated skirmishes there is simply an element of chance.
        3. +6
          February 7 2024
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          There is also a human factor

          and also, imagine, Pakistan scrambled 24 planes, and India 8. MIG attacked the F-ku and was shot down, the Indians claim that the F-ku was also shot down, but Pakistan does not admit. This is such a victory.
        4. -2
          February 8 2024
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Quote from solar
          Only now the air battle of the Indian MiG-21 and Su-30 against the far from new Pakistani F-16s ended in victory for the Pakistanis.

          In addition to dry numbers from technical characteristics, there is also the human factor, plus pilot training

          How many years have I been hearing these mantras...
          Mantras of justification.
          And for planes, tanks, air defense systems and everything.
          Now it's coming.
          With our crews on our equipment.
          And How?
          Did the iron wall reach the English Channel?
          1. +4
            February 8 2024
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Mantras of justification.
            And for airplanes

            Why excuses? All other things being equal, the human factor is always the main one
          2. +3
            February 8 2024
            Did the Leopards and Bradley reach Tokmak????
          3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +3
      February 7 2024
      The life cycle of a heavy fighter is longer than that of a light fighter. Fewer compromises and more opportunities for modernization and installation of equipment and weapons. Example -F15, Su30 with Brahmos, MiG31 with Kinzhal...LI - always tough compromises with weight
  2. +5
    February 7 2024
    Amazing article for Skomorokhov.
    1. +1
      February 7 2024
      I was surprised too, but no - everything is fine. It turns out that the Rafale is better, it’s just the French lol.. hee.
  3. +1
    February 7 2024
    I agree with the message of the article, and in my own way I will formulate it this way: any study (goal, task) defines its own comparison criteria. For science, size is not so important as measurability.
    Therefore, the author correctly emphasized at the very beginning: the class of a combat unit is not important if we are considering a comprehensive solution and the same approach.

    And one more argument in favor of another “brazen” work by the author)))..
    The gap between the price tags for the Rafal and the Su-30 will most likely increase. Due to distortions in the European economy and favorable military orders in the Russian Federation in the next 5 years. French manufacturers are always closer to the market than our military-industrial complex, hence their stability is lower, which means we can more easily maintain the price of the Su-30.

    The external background is another matter; it is not in our favor yet. For Indonesia...not entirely sure.
  4. +5
    February 7 2024
    I've read that the Rafale isn't quite French. The ejection system seems to be British, the sensors of some control systems are American.

    And from available sources it is known that Rafale has on board a high-definition thermal imager, a very high-resolution television camera, plus additional suspensions for various electronic buns of the future. Structurally, the aircraft has monoblock triangular a wing that remains fully maneuverable even at high angles of attack.

    In general, the Rafale, although not ideal, is a well-balanced aircraft for performing many tasks, but it is just too expensive and, as it seems to me, it is not entirely correct to compare it with our Su-30 - these are machines of several different classes and designed for different wallets...
    1. +7
      February 7 2024
      Good morning, Nikolai! hi

      Then the Gripen is not a Swedish plane: the seat is British + the new modifications have American engines from General Electric. smile
      1. +4
        February 7 2024
        Quote from Kojote21
        Then the Gripen is not a Swedish plane

        Gripen considered Swedish only because it was assembled in Swedish hangars, just like Israeli Kfir... wink
        Greetings ...
        1. +4
          February 7 2024
          This is wrong. Kfir - a compilation of Mirage and turbojet engine from F16. After sanctions from France.
          Grippen is an independent development. A modern turbojet engine is a complex matter and, yes, the Swedes bought a license for a turbojet engine. But they have their own fuselage, avionics, AFAR, and missiles. There is even a civilian safety certificate for military aircraft.
      2. +1
        February 7 2024
        Yes, in my opinion, even older modifications have licensed American engines, but Sweden can be forgiven, even though it has its own aviation industry; modern aircraft engines can only be built by 4-5 countries in the world, and Sweden is still a small country and it would be It is extremely difficult and expensive to cope with such a task.
        1. 0
          February 7 2024
          The old ones have Volvo engines. As far as I remember, based on General Electric.
  5. +1
    February 7 2024
    In Egypt


    Rafales have been serving for a long time (as far as I remember, since 2016, or even earlier).
    1. 0
      February 7 2024
      Quote from Kojote21
      In Egypt


      Rafales have been serving for a long time (as far as I remember, since 2016, or even earlier).

      Even since 2015 (then the Egyptian Air Force accepted the first three vehicles).
  6. +6
    February 7 2024
    That is why tenders were lost in South Korea, Singapore, UAE, Morocco, Switzerland and Brazil.
    Well, a tender was won in the UAE, and on a large scale - 80 aircraft, in December 2021
    https://topwar.ru/189883-francija-zakljuchila-samyj-krupnyj-v-istorii-kontrakt-na-postavku-istrebitelej-rafale-f4-inostrannomu-zakazchiku.html
    Another contract for 42 fighters was signed with Indonesia last year.
    The Su-30 was actively purchased in the early 2000s, now there are practically no new contracts, unlike the Rafal. so this article is very late
    1. +2
      February 7 2024
      Su30 is already old. The F15EX(SA) takes over the title of Heavy Fighter for export - this is an example of a modern 4++ aircraft and what clients with money want and will buy.
      1. 0
        February 8 2024
        Those who will buy the F15, even with a strong desire, will not be able to buy a Russian aircraft, they will not be allowed to do this. But there is something to offer to the F15, for example, the SU-35, which is no worse..
        1. 0
          February 8 2024
          India, for example. It may well be both here and there
  7. +4
    February 7 2024
    Of course, it’s sad that in the article about Rafales and Su30 there are no comparisons of performance characteristics of different series.
    None at all.
    It’s good that there are no attempts to compare prices for Rafali and Su, because the method of “dividing the contract amount into pieces” does not work from the word “at all.” It’s even better that the author does not say how much and how fraternal Kazakhstan and no less fraternal Ethiopia pay us for the planes.
    Strictly speaking, even if the inquisitive reader becomes aware of the existence of different series with different performance characteristics and different versions of Rafales for different countries, it will not be from this article.
    "Indian MMRCA tender: lessons and conclusions for Russia" https://bmpd.livejournal.com/1432807.html Following the link, the inquisitive reader can find out the real history of the Indian contract. True, the conclusions are already outdated.

    But what’s really sad is that the authors of Military Review, who are directly related to Su aircraft, have still not published a series of articles about the line “from Su27 to Su57”! request
    1. +2
      February 7 2024
      ...to Su57"!

      Are they in no hurry to sew mittens with Navalny and Strelkov? :))
    2. +2
      February 7 2024
      Well, what are you doing right away?))
      For the first time, Roman may have written something good about our military-industrial complex and immediately - where is the performance characteristics, why is it so little, and why is the wife, the athlete? what if I find it? laughing
      1. 0
        February 7 2024
        Quote: Foxmara
        and immediately - where is the performance characteristics

        For the third time, shall we discuss the maximum and maximum take-off weights? IMO, both the author and Rafal fan Maxim G have already realized that this is pointless.
  8. +1
    February 7 2024
    The best people can say which plane is better is India. They can conduct a training battle between these aircraft without prying eyes in various conditions and pilots with average qualifications
    usually the majority in all armies of the world. Maybe this was the case, which is why the Indians abandoned a large batch of Rafales
    MIG -35 is an underrated machine. In terms of performance characteristics, it surpasses the SU-75. It is also suitable for an average pilot. And it can easily be put on stream. Again, you can really test the MIG-35 in training battles with Western fighters. What is the problem with the MIG -35 is not clear.
    We have WWII experience in selecting fighters for military aviation. soldier
    1. +3
      February 7 2024
      The problem with the instant is that it was at least 10 years late and, in fact, even now nothing has been deployed for its mass production. Those. Even if by some miracle there is a contract, it will be years before the aircraft are released again. And then the 35th is pushed aside by the 75th, which, at a comparable price, is definitely better in everything.
      1. -2
        February 7 2024
        In what ways is this painted plywood better than the already fighting MIG-75 combat vehicle? There is even confusion on the Internet regarding the performance characteristics of the SU-35. Speed ​​range from 75 to 1900 km. Who do they want to make this plane for? Everywhere they write with ecstasy for export.
        And to whom? countries like Ecuador? Now that we are managing the Northern Military District with difficulty, and with a thousand problems in civil aviation and military transport.
        How many years does it take, as practice shows, from drawing to flying in hardware, not to mention combat use - 10-15,20 years? Like the SU-57, for example.
        The MIG-35 is already in combat squadrons, it is based on the mentality of the Russian pilot and will be relevant for 20,25 years, which is a normal period for a fighter.
        1. +3
          February 7 2024
          What if you turn on your head and don’t try to crush him with nonsense propaganda for the cheers of the patriots?
          Fighting Mig-35? Seriously? Can you tell me how many of these Mig-35s are in combat squadrons?))) Is it enough to count +1 fingers on one hand? And these are pre-production piece samples. And no one is talking about the readiness to start mass production, or that it is even planned, or that any progress is being made in preparation for production - an assembly line, personnel, the readiness of subcontractors to supply equipment on a serial scale. Yes, it is in metal and even flies. And yes, the Mig-35 is a good aircraft if you look at the performance characteristics. And yes, I personally really like it. This is what the Mig-29 should have been like from the start. But this only confirms my words that the plane was late. If they had a fleet of 100-150 aircraft right now, there would be no question. They would be a force and their production would be justified for another 10 years. But they are not there, just as there is no production, and this is the main reason for the “plywood” flying over Delhi. And if you don’t become hysterical like a child - I want candy (Mig-35) and that’s it, but think about what will happen in the future if you start to expand production now, then it will turn out to be nonsense. Money for everything doesn’t appear out of thin air. We’ll invest in the Mig-35, which means we’ll take it from another place. From the same Su-75, which is far from an ephemeral machine. In fact, everything is already there for him. The BKO has been tested on the Su-57, as well as the airframe production technology. And the last component - the engine is also done. There are no obstacles to assembling test samples. And due to the fact that many components have already been tested on the Su-57, I think the test program will be seriously reduced. The unification of the Su-57 and Su-75 also gives a good advantage in terms of price, maintenance costs and logistics. Another plus is that the Su-75 is fully compatible with the latest weapons developed for the Su-57. You can write a lot more, but I’m lazy)) You can just understand one thing - there will be a Su-75. It is a fact. Which all MiG fans must accept and humble themselves. And when it takes off, and it will take off soon, the Mig-29/35 will go down in history. No buyer will buy it.
          1. 0
            February 8 2024
            There are about 35-6 MIG-7s, and they are all fighting in the Northern Military District. This is an official statement by the Russian Ministry of Defense, plus its model is exhibited at an international arms exhibition. The Ministry of Defense also stated that the decision on serial production of the MIG-35 is in the last stage of adoption, after analyzing the actions in the Northern Military District.
            An aircraft with such performance characteristics is needed here and now, and production is already ready to produce it.
            The military will not wait 15-20 years for the SU-75. Even if everything works out, the first SU-75 will fly in five years, which is incredible in my opinion. And then why do we need a stripped-down version of the SU-57 with one engine? Despite the fact that everything that the SU-57 will have will be the SU-75, but all the performance characteristics will be worse, and in comparison with the MIG too. There is no fanaticism here, but practicality and expediency.
            1. +1
              February 8 2024
              Well... The RF Ministry of Defense officially stated a lot of things, and this did not always turn out to be true, or more precisely, everything turned out to be either a lie or was not commented on at all when it came to losses and high-profile failures. Likewise, it’s difficult to say anything about the Mig-35, because about them, like about the dead, it’s either good or nothing, most likely the latter. Because there is no real work for them there. The air is better controlled and cleaned by the trio of Su-35, Su-57 and Mig-31, the ground of the Su-34 constantly and periodically Mig-31K(I) plus vertical. Each one is better than the Mig-35 in its own field, plus new types of weapons are being developed specifically for these machines. We haven't heard anything new for the Mig-35. No missiles, no integration of FAB with UMPC. Perhaps they took part somewhere, but it was a one-time event.
              Statements about the last stage of decision-making... are already associated with the last stage of cancer, and resignation to the idea that the patient is going to the morgue, but you still want to stall for time.
              Quote: V.
              And then why do we need a stripped-down version of the SU-57 with one engine?

              Why do we need a twin-engine fighter that is either light (according to the developers) or almost heavy (in fact, 20+ tons), which is suddenly also significantly worse than the Su-57?
              Quote: V.
              Despite the fact that everything that the SU-57 will have will be the SU-75, but all the performance characteristics will be worse, and in comparison with the MIG too.

              Why lie so blatantly?)))
              Quote: V.
              There is no fanaticism here, but practicality and expediency.

              Show me where, otherwise I’ve read it several times and still haven’t found it practical or expedient. I repeat once again: if there were a minimum fleet of 100-150 and real mass production, there would be no questions. And so... Those enterprises at which it is supposedly possible to produce are not clear in what condition. They said about them that there was no equipment and no people. And statements about readiness to start tomorrow are nothing more than populism. Which is more believable since the moment has not produced anything for a long time.
              1. 0
                February 8 2024
                I believe that the MIG-35 will be produced, price, quality, performance characteristics, there is no better aircraft.
                What does Jd 1979 mean?
                1. +2
                  February 8 2024
                  Quote: V.
                  I believe that MIG-35 will be produced

                  Well, that’s actually the whole answer. Faith needs neither logic nor justification.
                  price, quality, performance characteristics there is no better aircraft.

                  Unfortunately for RSK Mig and believers in Mig-35 there are. And in series from Western manufacturers. And soon it will appear in Russia. This is the reality. I accepted it and came to terms with it)), although the Mig-29/35 and Su from 27 to 35 (with the exception of 34) are my favorite aircraft in terms of aesthetics, but everything changes to something new over time.
                  Quote: V.
                  What does Jd 1979 mean?

                  Full name Year))
  9. +11
    February 7 2024
    The author of the article has a fantastic ability to write huge articles about nothing, it is clear that at school he was the best in terms of essays.
  10. +6
    February 7 2024
    I read the article and did not find a comparative analysis of the characteristics of Rafal and SU. What about comparisons of at least radars? Does the author know what AFAR is? Where is the objective comparison of the weapons used? This is for starters. If the author writes about this, I can ask more questions.
    1. +3
      February 7 2024
      The author's goal is to throw on a sheet, nothing more. The performance characteristics here are more likely to refute the author)), although he, as usual, managed without them. Since he has repeatedly emphasized that the entire gain of the Su-30 lies only in the inadequacy of the French side as a seller. Although I managed to touch upon the performance characteristics to show that the Frenchman is much better)
    2. 0
      February 7 2024
      Quote: Mower of daisies
      Does the author know what AFAR is?

      And what kind of “architecture”?
  11. -5
    February 7 2024
    "Rafal" is an attempt to bring a light car into the heavy class. It is clear that the attempt is obviously a losing one, but the French stubbornly jump on the rake. And of course the cost.
    1. +4
      February 7 2024
      It is clear that the attempt is obviously a losing one...

      How is this clear? A successful plane, good electronics. As for the cost, it comes down to electronics.
      1. 0
        February 7 2024
        Electronics were all expensive. But a 4+ generation aircraft, more expensive than a 5th generation aircraft, is a bit overkill.
        1. +1
          February 7 2024
          The Eurofighter is not cheaper, or even more expensive than the Rafale. This F-35 turned out to be inexpensive (relatively, of course).
          1. -5
            February 7 2024
            Eurofighter is also not a masterpiece. Strictly speaking, these are two products, one program. Geyropa began to create her own united airplane, and then everyone went their own way. The French made the Rafale, the rest the Eurofighter. They are quite similar because they have the same sources. Disadvantages - cost, too.
            1. +2
              February 8 2024
              Strictly speaking, these are two products, one program.

              The Eurofighter was created by the Eurojet Turbo concern, which included the British, Italians, Germans and Spaniards. The French did not enter. At that time, Rafal was already flying.
              Airplanes are expensive due to advanced electronics.
              1. -1
                February 8 2024
                Initially, the “Eurofighter” was created and the French also participated, but fled later. When they disagreed. Just like the pan-European frigate, from which Germany and England later emerged, and the pan-European tank. Which didn't work out either.
        2. 0
          February 13 2024
          The cost of the F-22 aircraft is 411kk green, which of the 4.5+ caught up and surpassed it?
          1. 0
            February 13 2024
            "Raptor" heavy MFI, continuation of F - 15. The comparison is not entirely correct. As well as an attempt to “pull” the Rafale into the “heavy” category.
    2. +1
      February 7 2024
      This is a medium fighter - MiG35, F18, EF2000, F35.... in one weight. F2 Japanese.
  12. 0
    February 7 2024
    they tender for the Rafale, and end up buying the Su-30MK.
    The Rafal is quite sold even now, the Su30 is no longer... it is outdated and needs to be modernized.
    1. -1
      February 7 2024
      What batches of Rafales have been purchased recently? And Su-30, the same India, constantly purchases 10 - 12 vehicle sets to make up for the loss and further development. And if you compare the cost, then there’s nothing to talk about.
  13. +1
    February 7 2024
    By and large - not much. M and N are single- and double-seat carrier-based aircraft, VM is a carrier of nuclear weapons, and two modifications each (1- and 2-seat, respectively) for Egypt and India.

    For France there are 3 modifications.
    In a double for the Air Force.
    C single for the Air Force.
    M single-seat for the Navy (deck).

    There are no double deckers.
    1. 0
      February 8 2024
      A two-seat Rafale N for aircraft carriers was planned but was not built due to budgetary constraints.
      Rafale N
      Originally called the Rafale BM, was a planned missile-only two-seater version for the Aéronavale.[125] Budgetary constraints have been cited as grounds for its cancellation.[343]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
      1. 0
        February 8 2024
        Why write about this?
        If it was not produced.

        what
        Quote from solar
        A two-seat Rafale N for aircraft carriers was planned but was not built due to budgetary constraints.
  14. -2
    February 8 2024
    I criticize the author so much, but here is such a good article.
  15. 0
    February 11 2024
    “For example, Malaysia and Indonesia, which were not at all noticed to be partial to Russian weapons, ordered normal batches of aircraft.”
    But it’s not true, “Congratulations, citizen, having lied!”
    Malaysia bought and quite successfully operated the MiG-90 back in the early to mid-29s, and around the same time Indonesia became interested in Sukhimi.
    So both of these countries are quite familiar to our aircraft, and, besides, yes, for political reasons, but quite officially, purchase contracts, including the very near past, were canceled by Algeria (now for the Su-35, and before that - on MiG-29), as well as Indonesia (for the second time) and Egypt.
  16. 0
    February 11 2024
    Often what wins tenders is not technical performance, but politics.
  17. 0
    February 11 2024
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    Quote from solar
    Only now the air battle of the Indian MiG-21 and Su-30 against the far from new Pakistani F-16s ended in victory for the Pakistanis.

    In addition to dry numbers from technical characteristics, there is also the human factor, plus pilot training

    How many years have I been hearing these mantras...
    Mantras of justification.
    And for planes, tanks, air defense systems and everything.
    Now it's coming.
    With our crews on our equipment.
    And How?
    Did the iron wall reach the English Channel?

    Did someone actually set such a task, and not in a game on a map?
  18. 0
    February 13 2024
    I read the first line and immediately looked at the author: that’s right, this is R. Skomorokhov, you don’t need to read further.
  19. TIR
    0
    February 13 2024
    Rafal's main problem is the politicians in Paris. More precisely, there is a complete lack of political will and personal opinion. If you buy a French plane, then even after the death of any opposition politician in your country, there is a high chance of being subject to sanctions and the cessation of service for the purchased planes

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