Su-57 – fifth generation disco dancer?

Things are unfolding very interestingly with our eastern partner. In general, India is interesting. There is no carnival like the Brazilian one, but life itself is such that it easily blows your mind. And all against the backdrop of bright colors and beautiful fiery songs.

I'll start from a little distance. But not with stories, normally.

Last November, the Indian Prime Minister flew a Tejas fighter jet. More precisely, to be objective, the prime minister was given a ride on a fighter jet. Yes, photos, videos, Modi posted something sublimely patriotic on social networks...

Well, at the same time they placed an order for 86 aircraft, which greatly shook up the Indian patriotic community, which news “I came in.”

In fact, “Tejas”, as they say, were tortured. The aircraft began to be developed in 1984, in 2001 it made its first flight, and only in 2020 the Indian Air Force received the first production copy.

Considering that the Indians never brought to fruition the “native” domestic GTRE GTX-35VS “Kaveri” engine with a power of 8500-8800 kgf, the fighter will initially shine (“Tejas” - “shining” from Sanskrit) with the American General Electric F404- GE-F2J3 with a power of 8200 kgf.

It is not known exactly what engine Narendra Modi was driven on, but overall the result was so-so. If you really look at the state of affairs, then “Tejas” became outdated 10-15 years ago.

Of course, we can say that we have been fiddling with the Su-57 for a long time, well, we have something to fly on, and it was not bought, say, in India or China.

And now, by the way, it’s time to talk about Russian

Surely everyone reading will agree that if it were not for the Russian Su-30MKI, on which Indian engineers and technicians worked hard, localizing the production of the aircraft to the level of 80%, then there would be no trace of “Tejas”. Not long ago, we already discussed some arrogant attacks by individual Indian personalities, who for some reason imagined that the Su-30MKI ceases to be a Russian aircraft, since almost everything for it is produced in India.

Almost all. Except engines. And, if the Chinese were at least able to deal with the deterioration, but to tear apart the Russian aviation engines, then the Indians have no chance of it yet. It’s difficult to say how they are going to make the Su-30 100% Indian and how they are going to make it 31% Indian. But they certainly won’t teach an airplane to flap its wings, just as copying the AL-41 and AL-XNUMX is not something that Indian engineers can undertake with guaranteed success.

If you remember, in 2007 a joint Russian-Indian FGFA program was launched to create a fifth-generation fighter. On the terms, I note, of equal financial and partial technological partnership.

That is, both parties invest money in equal parts, but the technologies of Sukhoi OJSC are shared with HAL, let’s say, as needed.

In general, it would be nice: India and Russia invest money, ours build the aircraft, begin production and gradually transfer to India the ability to load their aircraft manufacturing enterprises. Well, that is, everything is as it was with the Su-30MKI. Let's just say it's a proven process.

But India, like a beauty from Bollywood, sang and sang, danced and danced and... did not pay any money. More precisely, she paid, but... 295 million dollars were knocked out of partners in 2011-2012, and from 2013 to 2016 there were attempts to extract another 5 billion for development, of which India agreed to pay 3,7 billion over 6-7 years on the terms that the money will be used mainly to implement the requirements of the Indian Air Force.

And the requirements, I must say, were, God forbid!

The Indian side requested about fifty modifications, some of which were very difficult: for example, replacing the AL-41F1 engines with something more powerful, equipping the aircraft with the N036 Belka radar with AFAR, changing the maintenance regulations, additional capabilities of the airborne defense complex, etc. Further. Almost 50 requirements. And without money, because the entire project for India cost 6,5 billion dollars.

It cannot be said that Sukhoi was indifferent to Indian demands. After all, he who pays calls the tune, right? The Sukhoi company agreed to accommodate the Indian manufacturer HAL and even increase HAL's share of participation in the project, which was reduced from 50% to 13% on the initiative of the cash-strapped Indian side.

That is, under the control of the Sukhoi company, the HAL concern could develop aircraft landing gear, navigation equipment, a container laser designator, windshield indicators, software, and so on. That is, employ your specialists and save your money on it!

But it all came down to money. I really wanted to save money without it affecting the results.

The Sukhoi company, in turn, committed to supply the Indian Air Force with three single-seat (in general, the Indians were more interested in two-seat aircraft) FGFA prototypes by 2020 for testing. That is, work, think, coordinate, load your factories. They say that some work in this direction has begun at the HAL plant in Nasik.

According to its plans, the Indian Air Force wanted to acquire 200 to 250 FGFA aircraft. So much so that deliveries begin somewhere in 2017-2018. That is, when the program to update the Indian Air Force fleet began.

However, at first the program was significantly reduced to 127 single-seat aircraft, and then canceled altogether.

Meanwhile, the MiG-27 and MiG-21 were withdrawn from service.

The then Indian Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman stated:

“We conveyed to Russia that India is no longer a participant in this project. At the same time, we told the Russians that they could continue to develop it on their own, and we could rejoin them at a later stage."

Further, the Indian media picked up phrases from the Indian Air Force report, which said:

“After reviewing all aspects of this project, we have concluded that it does not meet our requirements because the FGFA will not be able to create an aircraft that can demonstrate performance similar to the US F-22 and F-35 fighter jets.”

It turns out that “Tejas” is closer, so what?

So, the entire FGFA program turned out to be unimaginably expensive for India, the aircraft was recognized as completely unsuitable in many respects and did not meet the requirements of the fifth generation, the Indian Air Force was not interested in the aircraft at all, and...

And you can criticize Russia for a long time because they give birth to one Su-57 per year, but they give birth! Yes, the output was absolutely small, I would say negligible. But he is.

India received its own “Tejas”, which not only does not pretend to be the fifth generation, it does not pretend to be anything at all! This is an airplane whose place is in the class of light fighters, along with the Mitsubishi F-2 and SAAB JAS.39 Gripen. With good speed and range, but no combat load of 4 tons.

Su-57 turned out to be bad for India

There are no two radars providing 180-degree visibility, and even with AFAR, as the Indians wanted for their aircraft. So the “Tejas” does not even have a radar with PFAR; it has a completely ordinary radar installed. And so on down the list.

In general, the dancing around “Tejas” looked very so-so.

As a result, apparently, having danced for a while, the Indian Air Force began to think something like this: what, you know, next? The MiG-21 was removed, the MiG-27 was removed, the Rafale is a completely different matter; it will definitely not be assembled in India. “Tejas” - well, yes, the plane comes from the 90s of the last century - it’s great, but Pakistani F-16s will eat “Tejas” for breakfast without butter.

And the future prospects are very so-so: there will be no Rafales, the French refused localization, all maintenance and modernization is at the discretion of that side, which means that the Indian Air Force has only the Su-30MKI for the modernization perspective. The Indian military has already abandoned certain modernizations.

Yes, it’s stupid to rely on Tejas in the defense of the country’s air borders, especially considering what kind of air force Pakistan has, with which it still has to butt heads. And with China, which supports Pakistan and which has territorial claims against India, not everything is just up in the air either.

But questions still require answers... And the Air Force – aircraft. And now the Su-30SM2 is being ordered again in the export version. And the processors are burning out in their heads about how to get out of this situation cheaper.

The first bell rang last year, during the international exhibition “AERO INDIA 2023”. Somehow, some phrases on the topic of India’s return to the FGFA program were heard on the sidelines. Argued, by the way, with reference to the penultimate Minister of Defense Nirmala Sitharaman. And she clearly said that “...we can join them again at a later stage.” Apparently, according to current Defense Minister Rajnath Singh, the time has come.

Is it time to come get everything ready? Well, this is the custom of our Indian partners, and not only in the field of weapons. Apparently, it’s not in vain that ours recently patented the two-seat configuration of the Su-57. So, just in case, because chance very often happens in all sorts of ways.

And so it turns out that while Narendra Modi is flying the Tejas, his subordinates are quietly giving interviews in which the topic of the Su-57 sounds more and more insistently. And the theme is that “India did not refuse, India just suspended its participation in the project”.

Yes, the Su-57 is not the F-22 or F-35. The number of manufactured vehicles is more than modest, but the aircraft passed tests in combat conditions. First in Syria, then in the Northern Military District. And here it is worth noting that the Su-57 will have better success in comparison with the F-22. One can argue for a long time about how many planes the Su-57 actually shot down, four or one (in fact, at least two: the Su-25 in August 2022 and the MiG-29 in September 2023), but the fact is: over 20 years of service 195 F-22 aircraft shot down... one balloon! There were missile and bomb strikes somewhere on the enemy in Syria, but the air “battle” with the Chinese balloon was the first use of the Raptor against an air target.

Not a lot.

But the F-35, which produced more than 1 units, is no better: zero. More than five hundred American F-000s have not destroyed anything in 35 years. For the sake of honor, we can note the destruction of two Iranian drones, which occurred on March 15, 2021. This was done by the F-35I of the Israeli Air Force.

In general, the Indian military has something to think about. And, apparently, at their instigation, the Indian media began to “turn” towards the Russian plane. The famous Indian channel “Military Factory” suddenly burst out with a big publication about the FGFA program, giving a detailed overview of the potential capabilities of the aircraft.

Further, retired Marshal of the Indian Air Force and test pilot Anil Chopra, who, by the way, very vehemently opposed the Russian aircraft, suddenly said in an interview with the Indian Defense News portal that it seems that with the Su-57 he was mistaken, believing the Americans that sanctions will ruin this project.

Here, of course, a lot becomes clear. It is clear that it was the United States that was behind India’s withdrawal from the program with Russia; who would doubt it? And the scheme is clear: the Indians were simply intimidated by the fact that under sanctions the production of the Su-57 would cease and they would be left with nothing. A normal scheme, we take out chips for cruise missiles from microwave ovens... It worked.

But in general, the scheme only worked halfway: India withdrew from the project, but the Su-57 slowly, creakingly, but continues to be produced.

Something has changed in the Indian brain.

"We can do it ourselves"

In general, India has been trying to create its own modern fighter for a long time. “We can do it ourselves” is the motto of modern India. However, it is one thing to assemble a tank or even an airplane from a ready-made vehicle kit; it is another thing to develop it from scratch.

Alas, India does not have the knowledge, technology, or financial or other capabilities to create a modern military aircraft. Indian scientists and military personnel can only dream of independently implementing such projects; at best, it will turn out to be “Tejas”.

So the sudden return of the Su-57, especially its two-seat configuration, to the agenda is completely justified. Now Indian dances and songs will continue for some time, which will fool everyone in the world, after which they will give up in Washington. Moreover, today there is no time for Indian dances around airplanes, especially since everyone has been fed up with this topic since the time of the tender.

All that remains is to be patient and wait until Indian heads, and most importantly, Indian wallets, finally mature. Paying for a finished product, and the Su-57 is truly a finished product, will obviously cost more.

And it is quite possible that we will see the Su-57 in the skies of India.

Comments

[svp67]

Who would doubt that the zig-zags of the wants and desires of Indians do not obey any logic?

[Romario_Argo]

India has an aggravation with Pakistan and China, so it needs a fighter for the war
not expensive, at the prices of fighter jets,
clearly NOT Su-57,
They will most likely purchase more kits for assembling the Su-30 and Su-35

[Civil]

And now the Indian Minister of Defense and 40 of his elephants will dance and dance. Exhausting all my nerves. There is a suspicion that this is trade with the United States before the Indians acquired the F-16 or F-18 Superhornet.

[Romario_Argo]

as an option, 40 elephants is not bad,
we will increase production capacity for India for the Su-57
they won’t take it, so we’ll increase production for our VSK,
and after the SVO, the Indians will take exported already modernized Su-57M
but no longer to the detriment of supplies for videoconferencing

[ramzay21]

In fact, Su 57 can be sold to Indians ONLY on the same terms as the French sell their Rafales; transferring assembly and competencies to foreigners is a crime that cannot be allowed. And Indians don’t have much choice at all. The F-35 is not for them, the Americans are not fools and will not sell advanced aircraft to those they do not control. The Chinese will not sell their plane to them as a potential enemy.
ONLY the Su-57 remains and ours can dictate terms to the Indians unless, of course, they receive a bribe as always and sell all the technology.
You also need to understand that our Aerospace Forces need the Su-57, and not just two regiments in 10 years. The Su-57 is needed in at least 500 copies until 2030, then the Indians will want to buy the existing aircraft in significant quantities.

[TheWatcher]

Why the hell “at least 500 copies until the 30th year” - we vitally need at least 3500-4000 copies here, until the 30th year, or at the very least, until the 35th year. Nothing less! More is possible - less, no, no. ©

[ramzay21]

Very funny! How are you going to protect our airspace from the already existing thousands of F-35s? A complaint to the UN or Zvezda transfers, plywood mock-ups, hundreds of MiG-29s that might take off and five Su-57s?

[ycuce234-san]

Quote: ramzay21

transferring assembly and competencies to foreigners is a crime

They have an "expiration date". Progress devalues ​​previous achievements and the moment will come when it is necessary to exchange competencies for investments, with benefits.

[Vicontas]

Russia needs to start production of the single-engine SU-75 "Checkmate", as a cheap and export version of the SU-57, but it all comes down to finances! So let the Indians invest if they want a 5th generation aircraft! By the way, it was the Indian order in the 90s that helped the T-90 tank get on its feet!

[URAL72]

The T-90 tank was mass-produced even without the Indians, and in the early 90s there were about 500 of them in the Russian Federation alone. But there was no money for the army at that time, so exports became a lifesaver for the plant and the tank industry in general, but not for the tank itself. Moreover, India orders components from different countries for imported equipment. The T-90 has a French fire control system for example. Probably the connection there is not ours

[d4rkmesa]

At the beginning of the 90s there were about 120 maximum of those T-90s (object 188 of 1992), not to be confused with the T-90A of the early 2000s.

[TheWatcher]

The Su-75, in my opinion, is a rather awkward and ugly airplane. In terms of design, it would need to be completely redesigned.

[ramzay21]

Russia needs to start production of the single-engine SU-75 "Checkmate", as a cheap and export version of the SU-57, but it all comes down to finances!

There is no Su-75, there is a model made of plywood cut on the knee for propaganda purposes in order to distract the despondent losers from the Gesture of goodwill, the Regrouping and the Difficult decision of the place where the liberals brought the army during the 33 years of their power.

But in reality, for such an aircraft to appear, the Ministry of Defense must carry out serious work and formulate requirements for a new fifth-generation light fighter, which must clearly reflect what they want and announce a competition in which all design bureaus that have survived over 30 years must participate. Real flying prototypes, such as MiG and Su, should be submitted to this competition, and according to the results, the strongest, or the one with the most administrative resources, will win.
And in the end, the new aircraft should not only be cheaper than the Su-57, it should be able to withstand the F-35, which means it should be compared with the F-35 and without patriotism or idiocy, but realistically. And such an aircraft cannot be cheap by definition, it must have too much expensive equipment, but it will also provide quite a few advantages, from a giant leap in industry and an increase in the combat capability of the army by an order of magnitude to leverage over other countries.
Not only Indians will want to buy such a plane, but it should be sold not as our liberal leadership has been doing for 35 years, selling weapons to just anyone, but only to those whom we control and who will not sell them to our enemies.

[Dimm588]

Everything is wrong with you, but not like that, you would turn around from your sofa, but you have to get up early for school tomorrow?

[ramzay21]

Everything is wrong with you, but not like that, you would turn around from your sofa, but you have to get up early for school tomorrow?

You, the loser, cannot explain this. You have already forgotten how worried you were about the Regrouping and the Difficult Decision that happened for some unknown reason, you didn’t even ask yourself the question WHY this happened and you didn’t honestly answer yourself. But you saw the prototype of the new aircraft and heard tales about the analogue one, and now, without any extra effort, you again believe that everything is fine. Rejoice further, thinking with YOUR own head is not for you.

[Dimm588]

Quote: ramzay21

Rejoice further, thinking with YOUR own head is not for you.

Then why are you quoting words from manuals instead of thinking with your head? When will you start thinking for yourself? Tomorrow that never comes? Will the person quoting apologise? Notice this is my word.

[nickname7]

He writes correctly, the C75 is a neat layout and beautifully painted with lighting and color music, but still a layout. It is incorrect to write about it as a product.

[bug120560]

You say everything correctly, but in our case, the state should order and finance the development and production of new weapons (as was the case in the USSR), and not the enterprises that produce them. Accordingly, these enterprises must also be 100% state-owned.
I explain why - to support myself, produce products, pay salary. Without government funding, an enterprise has two options: take out loans, which is a “slow death” given today’s rates (this is partly why prices are so wild) or look for an outside investor. Today's realities are such that foreign states become such investors.

[vik669]

a bad dancer, even the fifth generation, traditionally gets in the way!

[Asad]

Again, ironic about opponents and problematic partners. And when did the striped ones miss the chance to shoot down someone with the help of F35 and F22?

[Maxim G]

The logic in the article is interesting.
Someday we will see the Su-57 in the skies of India, despite the fact that India is purchasing Rafales.

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

India is purchasing Rafales.

And did you buy a lot?
Enough?
Really satisfied?
Hindus, like us, live on this strange planet Earth, and in addition to their flexible psyche and love of money and dancing, they also try to look into the future.
Through the prism of your mobile psyche, but nevertheless.
At the time of their refusal to participate in the program, they really believed (and not only them) that Russia was a fading nature. Yes, they convinced her of this, and she (India), looking into the not-so-distant past, saw how the USSR collapsed, how drunken Yeltsin staggered and mocked Russia, how the Russian People became impoverished and degraded, how Yeltsin’s successors surrendered the country’s territory to its neighbors even without special attention. putting pressure on them... how the previously Invincible and Legendary Army turned into “amusing regiments” with a ridiculous number of Ground Forces... how everything was exported for sale, but the proceeds were not returned to the country... and how it was all covered up by the obedient authorities. . . How the Russian People were abandoned in Donbass for 8 long years, and the fascists were pleased and received all the preferences from the Russian Federation for rearming the Armed Forces of Ukraine and turning them into a real force...
Many have seen this. . . And they were also wrong in many ways.
And now the astonished countries and peoples of our amazing Planet are watching how the EU economy is crumbling, how frenzied farmers are flooding Paris and other European cities with agricultural feces... how the “terrible and terrible NATO” managed to supply the Armed Forces of Ukraine, barely expanding its arsenals (and why barely?) before collapse... They watch how US hegemony smoothly flowed into progressive Dementia, and right now it is splitting as a single state and is steadily entering the Civil War.... Not only are they no longer able to build the required number of ships and submarines, but they are not even able to produce shells and missiles in the quantities required... by the Armed Forces of Ukraine for all NATO and a host of other allies (50+ states, by the way). . .
But Russia is worth it.
And what’s surprising (and really surprising) is that it’s getting stronger.
Everyone is watching.
Everyone sees.
And India too - looks and SEES.
And India doesn’t see a damn thing, but the iron-clad Prospect of the Future.
And here's the French Rafale in such scenarios in India??
How can she then obtain spare parts, consumables and modernization kits from under the manure of French farmers?
And if the USA falls apart into hostile states, who will it ask for protection from China and Pakistan???
Does Russia have something? (Well, not England )
In Russia??
And we loved her dear one for a rupee for oil...!!
How many times have they shitted under her door and in her slippers...
. . . But you can pretend... weak-minded and... ask to return - they have exactly what a beautiful plane they turned out to have. We are partners with them in the brick business (BRICS) too...
And what do we see?
Prelude to a new round of fiery dances... on four chairs.

[Maxim G]

Obviously more than the Su-57 have been produced.

Quote: bayard

And did you buy a lot?

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

Obviously more than the Su-57 have been produced.

By the end of this year there will definitely be less. And why would Sukhoi launch a series without a new engine? They issued the regimental kit with AL-41F-1S without haste, and now there will be 51 units each with AL-24F. per year or more. New lines in the new workshop are the key to this.
The trick is that they won’t buy any more Rafales - they threw them away with localization and technology transfer. Now they are wiping off.
That's why the question:

Quote: bayard

Are you happy?

[Maxim G]

The trick is that Dassault, Thales and Safran have had joint ventures in India for decades.

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

The trick is that Dassault, Thales and Safran have had joint ventures in India for decades.

This is clear .
But this is different.
And the French will not and will not allow the localization of production or even assembly from Rafale vehicle kits. We also have a lot of joint productions with the Indians - they assemble Brahmos, Su-30MKI, oil refining, etc., but this is also different.
Nobody will transfer technology to Indians. Incl. and Russia. But the MiG-35S can, because they promised we also have a Su-75 on the way. And the modernization of the Su-30MKI to the Su-30SM2E. But for money.
For good money.
And as for the Su-57 (deliveries), over time, the Indians may also succeed.
BUT !!
- In queue !! They also have other customers. And only after saturating your own videoconferencing systems.
And dancers have nowhere else to go. The US will not sell them the F-35. And what should we do against China and Pakistan with their J-20 and J-31\35? With Tejis?
And Russia will definitely not fight for Indian orders now.
Firstly, the aircraft themselves are needed - the fleet of fighters and attack aircraft must be urgently doubled, or better yet, tripled. Because it is war.
War with NATO.
On the territory of the SVO (b\u) zone.
Secondly, the allies are already in line. And these are really allies, not dance partners.
Thirdly, you can now trade with India only for rubles or rupees. They don’t have rubles (there is a positive trade balance in our favor, and a HUGE one at that), and we don’t need rupees now even for nothing. Even the Indians themselves have no particular need for them - the garbage currency of a bankrupt state.
Let them learn to be useful trading partners. And we ourselves are masters of dancing.

[Maxim G]

France named the conditions for the production of Rafales in India - the purchase of at least 100 aircraft.

While 36 have been purchased and delivered (for the Air Force), another 26 will be purchased (for the Navy).

[Dart]

Remind you of the story with the French helicopter carriers, how it happens?

[Maxim G]

Should I remind you of the story of the French Mirages, how it happens?

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

While 36 have been purchased and delivered (for the Air Force), another 26 will be purchased (for the Navy).

Therefore, in 15-20 years, the dream of Hindu corrupt officials will come true.
Or not ?
What is the price tag for Rafal? Under 250 million a piece? For that kind of money you can order a brand new Su-57, or even a two-seat one.
But whether Dassault will be able to assemble the treasured Rafales for the gypsies in manure-filled workshops is another question. It's all just beginning there.
And in the USA it begins.
And we haven't even started yet.

[Maxim G]

They plan to receive airplanes in 27-28.

[bayard]

All that remains is to wish good luck and sympathize - after all, they built their new aircraft carrier specifically for Rafale with non-folding wings.
And how will they still serve in the hands of Indian pilots and technicians... And how much will their operation and repairs cost...

Today we have absolutely no need for extra Indian rupees. We already have plenty of them today. So let them learn from their own experience.
And Pakistan may have both Su-57 and Su-75 in the near future. And it can also become a very instructive lesson.
And Pakistan has something to offer as counter supplies.

[Dutchman Michel]

Quote: bayard

And in the near future, Pakistan may have both Su-57 and Su-75

In this situation, easily!

[Maxim G]

Quote: bayard

And it can also become a very instructive lesson.

The lesson for Pakistan is when Mirages 2000 covered the headquarters with KABs during the Kargil conflict.

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

The lesson for Pakistan is when Mirages 2000 covered the headquarters with KABs during the Kargil conflict.

This is probably why they order J-31\35 from China for their Air Force. But even though this is the 5th generation, it is a light/medium class fighter. So if you need a heavy "fifth grader" they can contact you.
And I hope no one doubts that the Su-57 is the best fighter in existence today.

[Maxim G]

And from whom, and what should they order?
If Pakistan is an ally of China.

[bayard]

Quote: Maxim G

And from whom, and what should they order?
If Pakistan is an ally of China.

They order from China - J-31\35. But this is still a light fighter and it has our engines. But if they need the BEST 5th generation heavy fighter, they know where to turn. And if anything happens, we’ll take it in yuan.
If the supply of Indian-made shells to the Armed Forces of Ukraine is confirmed, and deliberately, albeit through gaskets, if it turns out that India supplied them with spare parts for the MiG-29, if scams and delays in payment continue, as well as blocking of our funds in rupees... the Russian leadership may draw conclusions .
And how will our supplies of military aircraft to Pakistan be any more seditious than the supplies of Indian ammunition and spare parts for the Armed Forces of Ukraine?
But this does not mean that Pakistan is some kind of priority or even tempting target for our military exports. We still have many customers for our aircraft. And this is against the backdrop of orders from our Ministry of Defense that have increased exponentially. Production ones are also being increased by multiples (fortunately they were not even 20-30% loaded), so everything will be fine with this. New modifications have gone into production: Su-30SM2, Su-35SM, Su-34M, and soon there will be a Yak-130M light attack aircraft version. And of course, production of the Su-57 with second-stage engines continues at an increasing pace. This year, up to 24 Su-57s are expected, all aircraft are already on the stocks.
And we need all this ourselves.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: bayard

And Pakistan may have both Su-57 and Su-75 in the near future.

They won't appear. We will not spoil relations with India, a member of BRICS. Pakistan supplies China, which has territorial disputes with the Indians in Tibet.
Secondly, the Su-57s themselves are needed. Only from 2024 we will be able to produce 12 units per year. And at least 76 units are needed for 2 regiments.
Thirdly, the Su-75 is being made for the air forces of the Persian Gulf monarchies. We simply cannot accept another client for production reasons.
So, Rafali with their super-duper avionics is the only hope for the Indians in the confrontation with the packs.

[bayard]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

They won't appear. We will not spoil relations with India, a member of BRICS.

Oh, what nobility. So, they are spoiling relations with us and WILL spoil them, and we will just wipe ourselves off and turn our cheeks? They will supply the Ukrainian Armed Forces with 155-caliber shells, and we will supply them with spare parts for aircraft? And again, do they re-export these spare parts to the Ukrainian Armed Forces?
Maybe it’s enough to play Dunno and Neponimaika?
Pretending to be a monkey (I don’t see/I don’t hear/I’m silent)?
India has made its CHOICE - Historical, Technological and Civilizational. Her goal is to replace China in the role of the World Factory, and she will go towards this goal, no matter what we offer, no matter what discounts we make. This is a cut piece and it's time to come to terms with it. Fortunately, we have new clients for our aircraft and other military equipment, who, with the capacity of their market, are interrupting the Indian one.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Pakistan supplies China

Pakistan has combat aircraft from China with our engines. But these are light aircraft. And if Pakistan’s plans again involve confrontation with India, it will have somewhere to get the best that the world has in this area of ​​weapons.
There is no need for empty and unjustified “nobility”.
India is definitely not worth it.
It's just... this is our established stereotype. That India is our “reliable ally and partner.”

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

And if Pakistan’s plans again involve confrontation with India, it will have where to get the best that the world has in this area of ​​weapons.

After the packs imprisoned our friend Imran Khan, I doubt it.
They are still tightly under the amers.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

They are still tightly under the amers.

More like English, but it's almost the same thing.
But the West’s grip is weakening, and the Englishwoman is spoiling the region not only for us, but also for China. So a collector will also pass along our street.
Now there is a new Big Game, and it is happening on several boards at once. Let's play.

[bayard]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Secondly, the Su-57s themselves are needed.

Still would .

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Only from 2024 we will be able to produce 12 units per year.

Not anymore .
Last year, the Aerospace Forces received from 12 to 15 Su-57s. Consequently, the total number of these aircraft in service today is from 22 to 25 units.
In addition, a new workshop with assembly lines was built in Komsomolsk specifically for the production of this aircraft, capable of producing at least 30 such aircraft per year. And this workshop is already accelerating its capacity. This year it is expected from 15 to 24 pieces. From 2025 - at least 24 Su-57s per year.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

At least 76 units are needed for 2 regiments.

Optimally, you need 300 - 350 of them.
And at least 250.
And this is on the condition that the Su-75 will be successful and will be operational in 10 years.
And looking in the near/medium term, I would prefer to have a total fleet of 450 - 500 such aircraft. Just look at the map and estimate such needs after the return of the Northern Black Sea region, Novorossiya and Little Russia to Russia. And this will definitely happen. And also, at least roughly estimating the needs of our military bases abroad, their number (potential) in Africa, Asia and Latin America. In the medium term.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

The Su-75 is being made for the Air Force of the Persian Gulf monarchies. We simply cannot accept another client for production reasons.

Production capabilities/capacities are created/designed to meet the challenges and production volumes.
Only our own needs for such LFMI can be estimated at 500 - 800 pcs. Don’t be afraid of the numbers - we are at war and this war will last for a long time. Not with the used ones, but with NATO and all their allies and satellites. Even though sometimes it is indirect, but this is for us for 10-15 years.
So imagine WHAT capacity is needed for such production.
And the Arabs of the Gulf monarchies, the Persians and other allies and clients... must also get theirs.
But right now I would suggest that they urgently order the MiG-35S. They will receive it faster and more accurately.

[bayard]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

So, Rafali with their super-duper avionics is the only hope for the Indians in the confrontation with the packs.

My sympathies and condolences. It was their free choice. I'm truly happy for them.

[ramzay21]

But whether Dassault will be able to assemble the treasured Rafales for the gypsies in manure-filled workshops is another question. It's all just beginning there.

And what is just beginning there? In fact, their farmers are wealthy people whom the state protects from importers, subsidizes and loans, and as a result, they preserved their villages and provide themselves with food.
Now look at us. The village has been killed, there are a bunch of abandoned villages all over the country, there are no subsidies, no low interest rates on loans, the market is a walk-through yard, into which everyone who can drags whatever they want, including those who are our enemies, but our farmers do not go to Moscow for On tractors, they simply either leave the villages for rubber cities or quietly become an alcoholic and die.
Now tell me, what’s better is the French and German option, where the farmers will achieve their goal and continue to live a normal life, providing the country with food, or our option of destroying the village and complete control of the market by the Azerbaijanis, but without farmers’ protests?
You will take a ride through their villages and ours and compare.

[bayard]

Quote: ramzay21

Now tell me, what’s better is the French and German option, where the farmers will achieve their goal and continue to live a normal life, providing the country with food, or our option of destroying the village and complete control of the market by the Azerbaijanis, but without farmers’ protests?

You apparently did not read my posts carefully - I am entirely on the side of French farmers - “More manure on the streets of France!!”
Regarding our “philanthropists” and “guardians”, the conversation is separate and not in this topic.

[abc_alex]

Quote: bayard

MiG-35S

"S" is Serial, version for the Russian Air Force. Definitely no one will give it to the Indians. There will be some kind of MiG-35E (Export) with other components.

Quote: bayard

And about the Su-57

Perhaps it will be a Su-57K (Commercial).

But here, in my opinion, it’s too late for Indians to drink Borjomi. When ours started the 57th, there was essentially one similar aircraft in the world - the Raptor. Even the Chinese either had a “5th generation” or didn’t. And the land of dancing and elephants had a chance to get a new car at the same time as everyone else.
And now the Chinese have “5th generation” already in the series, and the Americans seem to have created another Lame Goblin, all of whose victories will be in the movies.
So the Indians are faced with a problem without a correct solution. Ours are unlikely to speed up production of the 57 for the sake of the Indians, and the Chinese are unlikely to slow down their production for their sake. You can, of course, try to buy Penguins from the USA, but they are inferior in terms of performance characteristics and combat capabilities to the Chinese. And the Americans don’t sell them just like that; they will require “many small services,” which the Indians try to avoid. So it turns out that the Indians were late in re-equipping their air force.

[bayard]

Quote: abc_alex

"S" is Serial, version for the Russian Air Force. Definitely no one will give it to the Indians. There will be some kind of MiG-35E (Export) with other components.

The Indians were offered the MiG-35SE, with the possibility of localizing production and even transferring engine technologies. That is, it was precisely the possibility of complete localization that was proposed.
They refused for political reasons. So now only trolling against them is possible.

Quote: abc_alex

Perhaps it will be a Su-57K (Commercial).

Of course. Moreover, we ourselves needed the two-seat version of the Su-57.
But!

Quote: abc_alex

But here, in my opinion, it’s too late for Indians to drink Borjomi. When ours started the 57th, there was essentially one similar aircraft in the world - the Raptor. Even the Chinese either had a “5th generation” or didn’t. And the land of dancing and elephants had a chance to get a new car at the same time as everyone else.

That's right - they danced their golden chance. Now just bite your elbows.
Firstly, today we ourselves need from 300 to 500 such aircraft. and their production is accelerating.
Secondly, we already have customers for this aircraft from less capricious partners.
Thirdly, India simply has NOTHING to offer us in return! Payment in dollars and euros is impossible, and we ourselves are rapidly moving away from this. And we don’t even need their rupees for nothing - so there’s nowhere to stack them. They don’t have rubles and won’t have them soon, because our trade balance is multiple in our favor.
So it is not destined for the country of elephants and dances to receive the best fighter of our time.

Quote: abc_alex

Ours are unlikely to speed up production of the 57th for the sake of the Indians,

They will and are already forcing it, but definitely not for the sake of India. A new building for the production of the Su-57 has been built and is now being brought to its designed capacity. Depending on the operating mode, it will be able to produce from 30 to 50 aircraft per year. But not at once .
If the capacity needs to be increased further, then after some time it will be possible to repurpose the hull in which the Su-35S and Su-35SM are currently being built. Of course, after the Su-35SM production program is completed. . They are nearby and this won’t be much of a problem. After all, this was originally planned.

Quote: abc_alex

So it turns out that the Indians were late in re-equipping their air force.

Yes, they were just all about....dancing. And now they have the worst and most expensive option of all... The French Rafal. The most EXPENSIVE of all aircraft on the market, with insufficient characteristics and this is definitely not the 5th generation.
At this time, Pakistan is ordering the J-31\35 from China, which the Chinese are preparing for themselves as a carrier-based aircraft. And this is exactly the 5th generation. That’s probably why the dancers started dancing about “returning to the Su-57 program.”
It's already late.

[abc_alex]

Quote: bayard

The Indians were offered the MiG-35SE, with the possibility of localizing production and even transferring engine technologies.

After all, the MiG is assigned the index “C” only serial vehicles for the Russian Defense Ministry. Manufactured for our troops to MoD specifications. And the specification for the military MiG-35 was formed strongly after India abandoned the MiGs. To be precise, the Indians were offered the MiG29M2 in an export version, called the MiG-35. At that moment, there was no aircraft as such, since in the ideology of the MiG-29M2 “blinkers” it is a platform, a basic design on which the units that the customer desires can be installed. The Indians chose Rafali before the design of the MiG-35 was completed.

Maybe now The Indians have again shown interest in the MiG-29M2 and are now being offered the MiG-35SE. After all, the car was created on the basis of the ship version of the MiG-29K...

[bayard]

Quote: abc_alex

After all, the car was created on the basis of the ship version of the MiG-29K...

Yes, the airframe is almost unchanged. The problem was primarily with the AFAR radar, which costs money, but neither the Ministry of Defense nor the Indians gave money to complete the work. And engines free of black smoke (incomplete combustion of fuel) + plasma ignition system.
The MiG was on a starvation diet, and the Ministry of Defense was not at all interested in this class of aircraft. It seemed to them that they could fight with just heavy vehicles and a small number of them. And the Indians simply lost faith in Russia as a viable state, and therefore abandoned promising (for the future) programs. Both of them were wrong. As a result, the MiG-35S is being produced for the Aerospace Forces and for at least two other foreign customers.
And the Indians remained with Rafal. And it is not only expensive to purchase, but also not cheap to operate. Not to mention repairs, modernization and... this is still not the 5th generation.
Meanwhile, China’s 5th generation fleet is growing, and Pakistan has ordered a batch of J-31\35. But the Indians cannot even upgrade their considerable fleet of Su-30MKI to SM2.... Obviously there are not enough funds. Everything went to Rafali. And now we are also purchasing an air wing for a new aircraft carrier (also Rafale).
But they wrote off all their MiG-21s, all MiG-27s and a whole number of older types. And there is no replacement for them. Apart from a misunderstanding of our own production.
And damaged relations with Russia.
But Russia today needs combat aircraft itself - it urgently needs to increase its fleet of combat aircraft.

[Lozovik]

Quote: bayard

Issued a regimental kit with AL-41F-1S

Just AL-41F-1. "S" for Su-35S goes.

Quote: bayard

and now with AL-51F there will be 24 units each. per year or more.

There is no such name yet, this is a journalistic invention. We are still waiting for the “intermediate” engine, maybe as early as 2024.
And there won’t be 24 pieces - the line has almost half the power. As for its expansion, talking is one thing, doing is another. They also promised to make PD-14s in hundreds, but by 2023 there will only be 4 units.

[bayard]

Quote: Lozovik

Just AL-41F-1. "S" for Su-35S goes.

Thank you, I didn't know this subtlety. But I knew that the modifications were slightly different.

Quote: Lozovik

We are still waiting for the “intermediate” engine, maybe as early as 2024.

But what about the reports that as of this year the engines are already in the second stage?

Quote: Lozovik

This is a journalistic invention.

It's a pity . How is the intermediate one different? Redesigned AL-41F-1 or "Izdeliye-30" with restrictions on thrust and temperature on the blades? If you asked too much, you don’t have to answer. In the end, even with the existing engines, the Su-57 is quite good, the main thing is to increase production. There are few engines of the next (intermediate) stage, let the rest remain the same. But give me the quantity.

[Lozovik]

Quote: bayard

Thank you, I didn't know this subtlety. But I knew that the modifications were slightly different.

They differ quite significantly in the control system, start-up, accessory box, etc. It is on the basis of the AL-41F-1 that engines for the S-70 and T-75 are made.

Quote: bayard

But what about the reports that as of this year the engines are already in the second stage?

Officially, no one said this.

Quote: bayard

How is the intermediate one different?

New box of units.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

And what do we see?
Prelude to a new round of fiery dances... on four chairs.

It seems to me that the Indians will save money again and order the Su-75.
Which will be very good for us. The Su-57 is a pity for them.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

It seems to me that the Indians will save money again and order the Su-75.

The Su-75 will have to wait a long time. And there’s already a queue for this pepelats, and not only foreigners, but also our VKS need this.
But WHAT will the Indians pay for their cravings?
Rupees?
So we have piled them up beyond all measure - neither exchange nor sell them.
And they do not pay for completed deliveries of defense products - they are being cunning and stalling for time. And there’s not much to take from them. Bankrupt in one word. And their power is fascist - all swastikas.
And why do we need such a buyer?
While they were paying in dollars it was tolerable, but now it’s no different - let them pay off their debts and trade with the United States. Iran or North Korea are a different matter - they are solvent partners, and they have something to offer in counter deliveries. And Indians are poor people. And the creation of a new international settlement currency is being torpedoed, which is why we have such difficulties in trade and settlements.
So they won’t see the Su-57 as their ears.
Himself - NADA.

[Cartographer]

Quote: bayard

Not only are they no longer able to build the required number of ships and submarines, but even NATO and a host of other allies (50+ states, by the way) are not able to produce shells and missiles in the quantities required ... by the Ukrainian Armed Forces

I’m afraid that we have stirred up this sleepy kingdom and the United States, together with NATO, will revive the military-industrial complex

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Maxim G

Someday we will see the Su-57 in the skies of India, despite the fact that India is purchasing Rafales

It's so sad that I want to dance and sing!

[Feodor13]

The facts are summed up well under logic.

This is a remark: in the context of growing contradictions between the United States and China (be it Taiwan, AUKUS, military cooperation with Vietnam, etc.),
The states will pull the Indian strings - what is called "no options."

Therefore, the conclusion given at the end of the article that the United States should distance itself from Indian mannered dances is still premature.

[parma]

Quote: Feodor13

The facts are summed up well under logic.

This is a remark: in the context of growing contradictions between the United States and China (be it Taiwan, AUKUS, military cooperation with Vietnam, etc.),
The states will pull the Indian strings - what is called "no options."

Therefore, the conclusion given at the end of the article that the United States should distance itself from Indian mannered dances is still premature.

Excuse me, what facts are given in the article and with what logic do they fit? Well, besides the author’s logic in the spirit of “stupid Indians don’t want to buy our wonderful parade aircraft”... since the author really wants to compare the Su-57 and F-35, let’s go over the development and production timelines. Let's start with the “ugly American”/“penguin”/“under-plane” or whatever else we called it, in general with the F-35... we finally decided on the choice of the F-35, and not a competitor, in 2001... testing began in 2006 , in 2011 a mass series began (this is all about version A, of course), today there are about 1000 vehicles in service, and the production rate is approximately 80 vehicles per year...
Now the domestic eagle, the Su-57... got the green light in 2001 (just like the American, so no younger than the “vile penguin”)... the first prototype flew in 2010... no, what’s the rush, everything had to be turned around, it’s been almost 10 years just right, that was enough... further testing until 2017, I must say quite quickly (well, in Russian realities), it was possible to start mass production and start delivering, and they started... though it seems like there are still more prototypes than production cars, and even serial ones have the engine is of the wrong system, but nothing, the main thing is that it is there!
Now seriously - look at the situation through the eyes of the Indians... in the late 90s and early 00s they needed aircraft, and quickly, efficiently and inexpensively... there was no choice on the market, but Russia was ready to supply the Su-30 on very interesting conditions and and an almost ready-made solution (fortunately, the chest with Soviet delights was literally bursting with offers, no more “it’s for the New Year”)... we bought it, and it came in a richer configuration than the device was in the homeland, with a leather interior and a panoramic lid, so to speak... we have cars the same configuration appeared quite later... then the Indians decided to change the MiG-27 and MiG-21, it seemed like they came to us again, and in response “there is no plane, but we will do it. For your money. And tomorrow. But this is not certain”... as a result, practically no one needs a beautiful model of the MiG-35 today, they wanted to stuff it into our VKS, but it didn’t really work out (maybe it’s good)... further “come on, the Indians think, let’s buy a 5th generation aircraft, probably in Russia has something on this topic in the “Soviet little chest”... it was found, but just like with the MiG-35 - “there is no car, but we will do it, but later, but it’s not clear when. And what is unclear. And it’s unclear how long”... almost 25 years have passed since the start of development, almost 15 since the first flight, and the machine is in parts only in “ceremonial” quantities... so it turns out that India, by suspending participation in the program, did not lose anything... yes, nothing to be found it didn’t work out either, but that’s a separate question... the main thing is that they didn’t lose anything, so all the author’s arguments are going nowhere...
As for who and how many were shot down by the Su-57 or the Americans - what difference does it make? Was there at least one conflict with their participation where the enemy had at least some comparable air force?... in fact, the aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are not a very different target from drones or balloons, except that from a purely technical point of view it is easier to shoot down than a “balloon over the USA”...
PS: I don’t understand at all why the author who once took on the Indians... the trend has long been visible - we are losing their market... and the reason is clear - the chest with Soviet reserves has dried up, and we don’t have time to throw our “toys” into it...

[Dutchman Michel]

I have repeatedly read that the Indians finally rejected our Su-57 precisely because of what they considered to be insufficient stealth. Well, the plump envelopes from the French also played in favor of Dassault Rafale

[sodium20]

Russian suppliers must ensure 2 things while doing business with India.
(1) Getting payment for the supplied products, at the right time
(2) Russian state-of-the-art technology must be secured from western powers. (It must never fell into the hands of anti-Russian forces through India)

Indian military industrial complex/space agency is heavily infiltrated with US/UK/French espionage agencies and arms dealers. They also have free access to HAL.

Thales, Lockheed Martin, Northop Grumman, Rafale, Arianespace, Boeing etc have heavily invested in India for anti Russia, China, Iran, N. Korea activities including cyberwarfare/infowarfare.

[FoBoss_VM]

The Hindus, with their desire to sit on five chairs at once, both ours and yours and in general everything in half, risk being left with nothing at all

[Lech from Android.]

. At the same time, we told the Russians that they could continue to develop it on their own and we could rejoin them at a later stage.

Despite the hump of Russians and Russia, many people want to enter Paradise...for free and for free.
You can’t reward such partners with free rolls... they’ll bite off the giver’s hand in an instant and won’t choke.

[Des]

“...within the framework of the FGFA it will not be possible to create an aircraft that can demonstrate characteristics close to the American F-22 and F-35 fighters.” They (the Indians) are partly right. The Americans, together with their “world”, can and do create the best aircraft in commercial quantities. And the Indians, seeing how we cannot create and replace the An-2, Il-18, Il-90, etc., doubt and reasonably suspect that they will be deceived. Well, no one canceled the “dancing”)).

[abc_alex]

Quote: Des

And the Indians, seeing how we cannot create and replace the An-2, Il-18, Il-90, etc., doubt and reasonably suspect that they will be deceived.

Yeah, and, most importantly, we deceived them so many times! Yes? How many times have they already sold them weapons that US military experts and even our own literate experts authoritatively called not flying, not shooting, sinking and generally Putin’s cartoons. And it, the infection, flies, shoots, walks on the sea and, being launched in accordance with the instructions, ends up where it needs to be. We deceive you at every step! Whether it's the French. These are the true masters of their word!

[Luminman]

Indian media began to “turn” towards the Russian plane

I haven't seen anything like this in the English-language media...

[FRoman1984]

I think there will be no deliveries of Su-57 to India in the near future. First of all, you have to do it yourself. Secondly, they will concentrate on modernizing the Su-30MKI fleet and additionally ordering 12-24 vehicle kits. Well, Rafales will continue to be purchased in the light fighter segment.

[mark1]

Is it necessary in the current conditions to get involved with the Indians? After all, everything will start from scratch - delivery of our finished products (Su-57), then vehicle kits, engines of the second stage (and all this to the detriment of production for ourselves), our specialists will go to India to set up production for them... then, when ready-made samples appear , friendly Americans will come and their Indians will ride on their (our) FGFA (by analogy with our nuclear submarines), or even organize some kind of joint exercises. And it’s not a fact that the money will come now, but the listed “joys” will come later.
In addition, we must take into account the free handling of our equipment, which everyone and everyone is handing over to anyone without asking us specifically

[bayard]

Quote: mark1

we must take into account the free handling of our equipment, which everyone and anyone is not too lazy to hand over to anyone without asking us specifically

To begin with, let them order the MiG-35S from us. And then we’ll see if the rupees of our planes are worth it.
And what kind of assembly of the Su-57 in India can we talk about? With their competencies they couldn’t even match the Rafale. Let them buy modernization kits for the Su-30 - up to the export version of the Su-30SM2, and they will be happy. And there are at least a hundred MiG-35S, because they need these for high-altitude airfields.
And then it will be seen...

[wladimirjankov]

Which MIG-35S? Where is he? And who needs it now? They tossed him around for thirty years, but never brought him to his senses. And it seems like there is no one left to finish and produce it. And the project has long been outdated.

[bayard]

Quote: wladimirjankov

Which MIG-35S? Where is he?

In service with the Aerospace Forces of the Russian Armed Forces, it is already in series; the first arrivals from the new ordered batch are expected this year (the first pre-production batch in the army and is used in the Northern Military District, although there are only 6 units). In addition, the MiG-35S has at least two foreign customers.

Quote: wladimirjankov

They tossed him around for thirty years, but never brought him to his senses.

This is a game with names. The first Su-35 was also completely different at first.
The MiG-35S has been completed, it was not accepted into service by the Aerospace Forces due to intrigue, but now it’s OTHER and the planes are needed. Practice has shown that heavy forces alone cannot fight a war. And since the Su-75, completed and ready for production, will appear no earlier than in 7-10 years, the proven and reliable MiG-35S went into production.

Quote: wladimirjankov

The project has long been outdated.

And how is he older than Rafal? "Super Hornet"? Not to mention the Eurofighter. As a 4++ generation MFI, it is very good. Excellent performance characteristics: speed, thrust-to-weight ratio, altitude, maneuverability, range, combat load, avionics composition - everything is at its best. It will not yield to Rafal in anything except the price. If it loses in any area in avionics, it will definitely surpass it in maximum speed, altitude, range, and ability to use RVV DB. At the same time, it is unpretentious to basing conditions, is easy to maintain, has a very good engine life, the engines no longer smoke, they have plasma ignition, can be operated at high-mountain airfields, and can use the infrastructure for servicing the MiG-29. And at the same time, even its export price is 3,5-4 times lower than that of Rafal. And an excellent AFAR radar with a fighter detection range of up to 280 km.
Why did the Indians overpay?
Because they believed that Russia was about to disappear, just like the USSR, and so as not to be left without spare parts, supplies and the possibility of modernization.
And that was their right.
Their choice.

Quote: wladimirjankov

And who needs it now?

But now he is already needed. And many people need it. That's why it was launched into series.
Both to our VKS and to foreign customers.

[vik669]

To begin with, let them order the MiG-35S from us - well, damn it!

[Vrotkompot]

I have worked internationally with Indians in various areas, and I will say that I have never met a worse counterparty. If some countries buy right away, while others send immediately, then Indians can really dance for years, and in the end never buy anything)))

[Aviator_]

I have worked internationally with Indians in various areas, and I will say that I have never met a worse counterparty.

Likewise, fortunately, it didn’t come down to work. They have dances, songs, elephant races, or something else. Gypsies, one word.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Aviator_

Worked internationally with Indians on.... I have never met a worse counterparty.

Likewise... Gypsies, one word.

I worked for them - never again, kind of through the looking glass.
They will rack everyone’s brains: now they have in the front room, in addition to Russia, also the Americans and the French: whoever gives the helmsmen the opportunity to support what is made in India will get the slippers. But ponies won't forget

Quote: Aviator_

either dancing, or singing, or elephant racing, or something else...

[Graz]

Indians are dancing with America and other NATO members, I hope the technologies on which the country’s security depends will not be transferred to them

[Viktor Sergeev]

One thing I don’t understand is why make an ancient parody of an even more ancient Mirage if there is a Su30 and its production has been established? They're kind of strange. After all, it has been proven: a light fighter against a heavy one is nothing if they are of the same level. Well, modernize the Su30, install a new radar and equipment, why bother? I understand, the east, everyone wants to steal, but not to the same extent.

[Dimax-nemo]

If you are talking about Teijas, then it was intended to replace the MiG-21, and at the very end - to replace and complement the MiG-29K. “Slightly” different weight categories from the Su-30. No country in the world (except us) is going to equip its air fleet mainly with “heavy” fighters of the Su-30/-35/F-15 class. Yes, even double ones. It's simply too expensive.

[lukash66]

Yes, wherever they go, they puff up, puff up, and the output is nothing. And again they are starting to buy from outside. But the desires are off the charts: give them this, give them that. And preferably with technology and cheaper, otherwise we won’t want it.

[South Ukrainian]

The Indians are not bad guys, but they are too cunningly made. They want to pay the minimum amount of money and ride on the most modern aircraft. Our Dryer with a new engine is truly the best in the world. If the Indians are willing to pay, this time we need to build a new SU-57 production line and train our specialists, at their expense, of course. Only then can we have planes, at the same time for them and for us. And there is no technology to be transferred, but no, let them fly with what they have.

[lukash66]

The Maharajas probably want to wait for the SU 75, it’s supposedly cheaper than the 57th Sushka. And they’ll start their own barrel organ again - they’d better drop the price tag and organize the assembly with us, with all the consequences. Otherwise, we’ll scratch our turnips and run to someone else to bargain. They are gypsies and gypsies in India. But their parades are breathtaking.)))

[faiver]

India is a very problematic partner, especially in current times, given the problems with financial settlements....

[Tim666]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

One thing I don’t understand is why make an ancient parody of an even more ancient Mirage if there is a Su30 and its production has been established? They're kind of strange. After all, it has been proven: a light fighter against a heavy one is nothing if they are of the same level. Well, modernize the Su30, install a new radar and equipment, why bother? I understand, the east, everyone wants to steal, but not to the same extent.

Proven by whom and when? Sukhoi Design Bureau to weed out the competitor in the form of MIG?
And the fact that the Indians created their own, albeit not the best, aircraft is undoubtedly the right way to create their own school of aircraft construction, otherwise Skomorokhov’s logic is somehow flawed - if the child is not a genius, then he is not needed.

[Dutchman Michel]

Quote from Tim666

And the fact that the Indians created their own, albeit not the best, aircraft is undoubtedly the right way to create their own aircraft manufacturing school

That's right! First, they’ll get some big shots for themselves, and then maybe they’ll start building something serious. We say: “the first pancake is lumpy”

[Pete mitchell]

Quote from Tim666

Quote: Victor Sergeev

One thing I don’t understand is why make an ancient parody of an even more ancient Mirage, if there is a Su30 and .... I understand, the East, everyone wants to steal, but not to the same extent.

the fact that the Indians created their own, albeit not the best, aircraft is undoubtedly correct... If the child is not a genius, then he is not needed.

Why - made in India: it is important for them. Tejas started to be created when I Murzilka on Foreign Military Review transferred - and I’ve already been demoted twice for a long time. They will bring before flights, before combat-ready - I doubt it. Until they create their own school materials science - will rely on strangers

Quote: Pete Mitchell

Now, in addition to Russia, they also have amers and the French working in the front hall: whoever gives the helmsmen the opportunity to support made in India will get the slippers

[Dedok]

money - what is this? - rupees, you can’t buy anything with them anywhere...
and in dead presidents, calculations are dangerous for Indians...

[Maks1995]

something similar to noodles is written.
Years have passed since the Indians abandoned the SU57 - write and remember what you want, no one remembers anymore.
And then they wrote something completely different
They say there were 2 reasons - bad stealth (which was indirectly confirmed by Zvezda, a year later announcing the development of a stealth coating for the cockpit, which gives .... 50% of the reflection in a regular aircraft (their words)
And the absence of stage 2 engines, which have only appeared now.
In addition, they then announced their refusal to cooperate in the development of transport sludge (ours, over the years of pouring money into it, didn’t even begin to draw it) and a cruise missile (it seemed to have grown together with it later)

In general, IMHO, have we surpassed the Indian dancers with our “optimization”?

[Ezekiel 25-17]

Not soon; Now we ourselves need Su-57s.

[Adrey]

I read the comments. For some reason, everyone is puzzled by the questions: “what to sell, how to sell, why to sell, why to sell,” and no one asked why the Indians decided to raise the topic of returning to the FGFA program since it is so mmm... “average” in their opinion ? And the answer is probably “as simple as an orange” - what to buy for?
Due to the sanctions, of course for rupees, which we have already “fed up” and we have nowhere to put them, and the Indians will still “print them”. Under such conditions - why not return (anywhere) ?
How do you like this conspiracy theory?

[Tarasios]

Let me present a picture: my friends and I decided to get together outdoors for the whole weekend, for barbecues and all that. Therefore - with tents, barbecues, snacks and beer, at the same time go fishing to pamper yourself with fish. Of course, we discussed the “point on the map”, the route, transport, luggage, required finances, and from here - the share of everyone’s “contribution to the common cause”, everything was fine. And then I’m so busy and frugal, I say, “Everything is ok, but I’ll throw in some money later.” And in general, dear friends, I won’t eat much, I’m not interested in fishing, and I generally plan to drink in another group in the neighborhood, so my share should obviously be smaller. Well, ok, the friends said, scratching their heads, as you say. Let's go.
But after the first turn I was like: “no no, it’s not clear how we’ll get there and what will happen there. So go on your own, but I’ll probably join you at the last stage.”
And then out of the blue: “Oh, partners, where is my big spoon? Why isn’t the stack full? And where will I sleep? Why didn’t they take fishing rods for me?!”
As far as I remember, in common parlance such “thrifty” ones are not called that way ;) ...

[AdAstra]

“Yes, the Su-57 is not an F-22 or F-35. The number of vehicles produced is more than modest, but: the aircraft was tested in combat conditions. First in Syria, then in the Northern Military District.”
Come on, let’s also engage in myth-making. In this situation, then there is no reason to believe that the F-35, dear mother, is so bad, the example of the Jews is proof of this - they fly and fight. As for the F-22, why drag it somewhere, when somewhere there the F-15, F/Sh-18, F-16 can cope quite well, much like in the Northern Military District, where the Su-35, Su-30 work , Su-34.

[Pavlenko Valery]

Damn it. Our people can’t really get out of this shit, but we feed them, give them gifts, write off debts, give gas to anyone and everyone, gas for nothing, etc., they also have planes, almost for free, and then screw the forest breadwinner, we’re fine with the USA too When will Russia stop being a nursing mother?

[Alex 1970]

Su 57, a long song with small-scale production and there is no need to say that modern aircraft take a long time to be designed and go into series even longer. Amers began designing their F35 in 1993, our Su 57 in 2001, how many F35 and how many Su 57. Yesterday Shoigu inserted a piston about the Coalition of the SV, as it was not and is not, and yet on August 15, 2023 they proudly announced the end testing and the beginning of mass production, even here the well-known author of the articles squeezed. Involuntarily, I want an “iron hand”, but for now there is only a talking shop.

[d4rkmesa]

With an “iron hand” and Shoigu’s percussion cap, AFARs will not be born by themselves. Here, unfortunately, we have objective limitations.

[Jonny_Su]

Everything depends on our ability to independently pull out the project. We will be able to expand the model range and ensure its modernization - a respected partner and party in negotiations. No means no.

[Knell wardenheart]

The whole question here is, is it beneficial for us for India to get involved in this project? They will ask for localization - and the United States will have access to coating materials and the ability to measure the EPR of the product. Let this be an export option.

[solar]

Judging by the statements of the Indians at the time of their refusal to participate in the project, they had access to the characteristics of the aircraft, including the EPR. Recently, the Americans agreed to produce engines for fighter jets in India.

[Dimax-nemo]

The Su-57 was criticized a lot for its large ESR, judging by the pre-production copies and not really understanding how the Russian aviation industry has been accustomed to working since Soviet times. But in any case, the Su-57 is a different concept. Unlike the F-35, it should remain a good interceptor, and unlike the F-22, it should cost a reasonable amount of money. The balance between good aerodynamics and stealth requirements is still a challenge. We didn’t want to sacrifice aerodynamics and performance characteristics so much. “Healthy conservatism,” so to speak.

[d4rkmesa]

In 2001, there was still, essentially, a Soviet aircraft industry. Just look at the photos of that time - there are still drawing boards, mustachioed engineers, model airplanes and half-empty workshops all around.

[Dimax-nemo]

It’s as if the Russian Su-57s without AFAR, a defense complex, and “2nd stage” engines are not made for them. Let's be honest - we wanted the Indians to pay us at least half of the R&D.

[Zaurbek]

There is nothing wrong. Look at the Americans with the F16 and F35 programs

[Dimax-nemo]

The bad thing is that they already want the finished product, and not that we learn how to do it with their money.

[Zaurbek]

The Americans offered them the same thing with the F16... and the same with the F35. Prepayment everywhere.

[Dimax-nemo]

Both of them were made long ago without the financial participation of the Indians. The question was in fulfilling the special wishes of the Indians. You have to pay for this. In the case of the Su-57, the aircraft itself did not yet exist. It was actually supposed to become joint, according to the plan of Rostec management.

[Zaurbek]

Without India, but with prepayment from all clients. The scheme is the same, but the USA has all the rights

[Dimax-nemo]

There are very “own” clients there. Which depend on them in many ways. This is not about us and the Indians.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

Let's be honest - we wanted the Indians to pay us at least half of the R&D.

And you might ask who paid the Americans for half of the research and development of their Penguin.

[Dimax-nemo]

But, unfortunately, we are not “states”. There is no doubt that there is enough potential to do this. From "investors".

[Zaurbek]

Likewise, Indians are not “sculptors” of airplanes. It is in their interests to participate in such projects. Take China, for example.

[Dimax-nemo]

The Indians do not depend on us economically and in the field of security, in contrast to the “high” relations between Denmark and the United States, for example. Indians have enough money to buy any fighter jet. The only question is whether and how much they will sell. And they want advanced technologies, which, from their point of view, we are very unlikely to possess. I'm not saying that this point of view is correct. I say that this is how they have it. Whoever pays the money gets the girl to dance. The Soviet Union could afford to not care about anyone, do what it itself needed, and then sell and donate at its own discretion. If you don't like Senkevich, don't eat it. Now our military-industrial complex can no longer afford this. Now it’s the other way around - the army is forced to take what is in demand on the world market.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

Now our military-industrial complex can no longer afford this. Now it’s the other way around - the army is forced to take what is in demand on the world market.

You are overdramatizing the situation. “Spending diversification” is now widely used. The US people have generally eaten the dog in this, they are constantly striving to throw off part of the R&D costs on their allies, and preferably all of them. In Europe, in general, in my opinion, there are no longer joint projects. All new types of weapons are joint in one way or another.
Yes, of course, ours wanted to shift part of the costs to the Indians. What's bad about it? In addition to cutting our expenses, this would objectively reproach the project. And as I already said, it would allow the Indians to get the “5th generation” at the same time as the Chinese. And I note that this would be an aircraft superior to Chinese aircraft and certainly superior to the Penguin. Of course, we would not transfer our technologies there, but the Indians would be able to advance their technologies. The same avionics.
If you think that our people wanted to ride an elephant, then you are mistaken, the project was interesting to both sides. Just like BrahMos became useful.

[Dimax-nemo]

Let's not decide for the elephant whether it is interesting or not. Apparently, he is “interested” in buying a finished product with technology. To what extent these desires are realizable is another question. But he doesn’t seem interested in paying for us to learn how to do something that we don’t yet know how to do, for his own money. Whether he is right in this or not is, again, another question. But in this market the customer is always right. If you are not the USA.
I repeat - there is no need to compare NATO allies, who will soon forget how to make machine guns themselves, with India, whose 3rd-4th place in GDP is just around the corner. Unfortunately, we do not have satellites like the United States. There is no one to shift it to. Therefore, Rostec should first try to adapt its wishes to the real geopolitical situation. After which, stories that there is nothing wrong with this will no longer be of interest to anyone except Rostec itself.

[Zaurbek]

And you can criticize Russia for a long time because they give birth to one Su-57 per year, but they give birth! Yes, the output was absolutely small, I would say negligible. But he is.

Using the example of the USA, large production can be organized through cooperation. and make the responsible units at home.

[Zaurbek]

The most sensible/economical option for Indians is to switch to Su30SM2 (comparable to Su35S). Master production and then move on.

[Tests]

Dear comrades of "V.O."! To everyone who writes that we don’t need rupees and what to do with them, the Russian Federation already has them, like shoe polish from Uncle Matroskin’s cat from the shoe polish factory, I have to remind you: in October 2023, an agreement was signed according to which India will be in the shipyards in Goa until 2027 will build 24 vessels for the Russian Federation for work in the Caspian Sea: chemical tankers, bulk carriers, container ships. The price of each vessel, naturally, is 2 times cheaper than those made in the Russian Federation. Thanks to the Central Bank for the rate...

[Zaurbek]

Kickbacks are more difficult to obtain and move offshore. Apparently, this news is being promoted by those who “suffered” in the proven schemes.

[Eug]

As for me, the Americans will still offer them the F-35. And all the talk about Indian Su-57s is nothing more than a means of putting pressure on the amers. The dancers really want to become a production site for the West, but Russia will not be able to “play” between India and China.

[Glagol1]

They have more than 200 Su-30s, 36 Rafales, 60 MiG-29s under modernization, and about a hundred Tejasiks. In total, this is more than 400 fighters. Where else would they go?!

[Dimax-nemo]

The Chinese have about a thousand. They share second place with us. Even if some of them are a la MiG-21. And you can add more packs immediately to the batch....

[JD1979]

I see that the author is burning because the Indians dared to call the plane Indian))) this is the second time he’s complaining))
Well, actually, they can say whatever they want, it’s their right. Moreover, it’s not for us to look for a speck when we ourselves have a pile of logs))) How is a purely Russian Muscovite doing?))) Wherever you spit, almost 99% of import-substituted products are written in small print - it’s in the PRC))), and if it’s made in Russia, then anyway, an autopsy shows that the filling is from 50 to 100% Chinese.

[Salt]

Let the Indians bite their elbows now.
They should not sell the SU-57, and if they want, then only its export version “Checkmate” with one engine.
And only with the old one, not with product 30.

[running Man]

India is an extremely unreliable and unpredictable buyer due to extreme corruption even by our standards, and a low level of pilot training, which does not miss any opportunity to slander Russian aircraft. And at the same time, she also demands something, as if she were at a market, where 5th generation fighters are on every counter. You cannot follow their lead and provide them with any technology or equity participation. And in general, these are not technologies that can be squandered! Let them roll through the woods, buy a hemorrhoidal F-35 through a kickback for crazy money, and then cry that before each flight, a few days before, you need to obtain permission from the United States, otherwise it won’t even turn on (this is not a joke), and in order to get it, you have to regularly appease overseas gentlemen and behave well for them. This will be science for them. Hell, they don’t have an airplane fleet, but some weird collection from all over the world, so it won’t last long.

[d4rkmesa]

Let me just remind you that their annual flight hours are many times higher than ours. Things are especially depressing in the Navy - where the best pilots have only tens of hours a year.

[alexmach]

But in general, the scheme only worked halfway: India withdrew from the project, but the Su-57 slowly, creakingly, but continues to be produced.

Something has changed in the Indian brain.

Rumor has it that it seems to be creaking-free. I have already written about bmpd ratings, according to which the Su-57 is already catching up with the Su-35 in production.

Apparently, it’s not in vain that ours recently patented the two-seat configuration of the Su-57

And it’s not in vain; we ourselves also really need it.

[Berg berg]

At the last MAKS there was talk from the Americans, when they saw the flights of the SU-35 and SU-57, they said that their F-35 and F-22 aircraft, if in truth they do not reach the fifth generation at all, are just an advertising commercial aircraft!

[solar]

The author was a little late with the article.

Moscow. January 27. INTERFAX.RU - India and France have reached an agreement on joint production of military equipment, including helicopters and submarines, for the Indian armed forces and for friendly states, Western media reported on Saturday, citing a statement by the Indian government.
Agreements were reached during the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron to India. The day before, he was the chief guest of the military parade in honor of India's Republic Day, met with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and attended a state reception given by Indian President Draupadi Murmu.
According to the statement, Macron and Modi agreed to expand ties in military production, nuclear energy, space exploration, the use of artificial intelligence in healthcare, agriculture, and climate change.
In particular, a repair and maintenance center for the most modern engines from the French company Safran SA, as well as engines from French-made Dassault Rafale fighters, will be opened in India.

February 1, 2023, AviaStat.ru – India and the United States can begin joint production of aircraft engines for military aircraft at Indian enterprises under a license from General Electric. TASS reports this with reference to the Business Standard newspaper.

“The White House administration is currently reviewing General Electric’s application to manufacture aircraft engines under license from the company in India for military aircraft. Both the United States and India are committed to rapid and ambitious progress in bilateral relations,” the publication quotes the speech of the US Assistant to the President for National Security Jake Sullivan at a briefing in Washington on Tuesday's release of the US-India Critical and Emerging Technologies Initiative.

[sodium20]

While doing business with India, always remember:

(a) Getting payment for the supplied products at the right time.
Russian Govt. must ensure that the Russian companies are getting payment from India at the right time.

(b) Safeguarding Russian technology from western powers.
Indian organizations like HAL, BEL, ISRO etc are heavily infiltrated with western espionage agencies and arms traders and brokers. Most of them are sponsored by companies like Thales, Safran, Lockeed Martin, Northop Grumman, Rafael, Boeing etc. Russian Govt. must ensure that valuable Russian technologies are not stolen to the west through India.

[Vyacheslav Ermolaev]

The first order for the Su-57 turned out to be larger than the first order for the Su-35. They don’t make one at a time, at least 4 per year. The delay was mainly due to the fact that the Ministry of Defense wants aircraft with a second stage engine. About “they demanded AFAR.” So, did someone plan to install PFAR? And about “back and forth”. I won’t say anything about “backwards”, but two pairs of side AFARs X and L range are quite possible

[Dimax-nemo]

That's all true, but now I'm for something else. 4 a year is still not serious. This is not mass production. At this rate, the entire order will be completed when the aircraft is already morally obsolete, and the first aircraft from the order are also physically obsolete.
I can understand the desires of the Ministry of Defense, but in reality it is illogical. Because the F-35's supersonic power without afterburner is purely nominal. Because the Su-57 with the same engines is still better than the Su-35 (in theory, at least). And because Rostec actually makes the AL-41 to a fault. Modern gas turbines are machines of perfection, but this is reflected in their manufacturability, rather with a minus sign. You can make a unicycle of some kind not even in days, but in weeks.

[d4rkmesa]

The Su-57 still has expensive, unique ASP. Hanging the UMPC on him is some kind of blasphemy.

[Dimax-nemo]

The UMPC can be mounted on the MiG-29/-35, or even on the Yak-130. In order to drop something at most 4x500 (or more often 2x250), without reaching the front line at least 50 km, the Su-30/-34/-35 is also too much.

[d4rkmesa]

With the 1st stage engine, the Su-57 does not fully satisfy the technical requirements.

[Mekey Iptyshev]

I watched an Indian film about the birth of Indian cosmonautics, online the Russian name is “Rocketman”. The situation seems simple: people who are under the influence of the United States or other powers are responsible for contracts. Depending on which bloc of officials wins, they buy either from us or from the West.

[Tests]

Zaurbek (Zaur), dear, have you ever asked yourself: why has the Russian Federation not delivered a single nuclear submarine as planned? Why was it planned to employ 2023% of shipbuilding enterprises in the Russian Federation by 68? Why does the Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center have 8 branches throughout the country? And why, after the failure to deliver new nuclear icebreakers at the Baltic Shipyard, did Arktika receive an order from the Supreme Commander to organize 8 ship electrical installation centers throughout the country? And, if you have time and desire, find an interview for September 2022 on the sidelines of the EEF with Secretary of State - Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Viktor Evtukhov about civil shipbuilding in the Russian Federation. I hope you know about the repair of the Bratsk nuclear submarine. And about the “Nerpa” that India returned. What about the blazing Kirov? The Russian Federation does not have in construction, and most importantly, no projects for tankers, gas tankers, or bulk carriers of reinforced ice class. And there is no one to buy them from, as luck would have it with the numbered Black Sea Fleet transports for the Syrian Express. The former head of USC, a great specialist in tractors and cars, received the Order of Alexander Nevsky for his hard work at USC.

[Cucumbers]

Why exactly do they need two-seat Su-57s, I don’t understand. Should I take Narendra for a ride? They want to buy, they have to sell. And we ourselves should begin, like the Americans, to build a 6th generation flying wing, or in the form of a flying saucer. The Su-27 has already been completely modernized

[d4rkmesa]

The Indian FGFA program did not take place for the same reason as the GPV 2020. There is nothing surprising about this. Well, there are different requirements, of course.
In general, compared to China, India has a gigantic lag in the quantity and quality of its air force. Our own production will not be able to ensure a reduction in this gap, and neither will imports from Russia - our production capacities are occupied for a long time. Perhaps only South Korea and the USA will be able to help with the mass production of some pepelats.

[Ivanov IV]

"Su-57 - disco dancer"???
Judging by the wishes and results, then most likely a tap dancer with diarrhea....

[Lötnab93]

But we don’t give a fuck about their wishes, we ourselves need a plane, and the Indos and others are walking through the forest

[D-Master]

The Hindus will dance for a long time. But the main thing is that they pay, and not in rupees. Indians really want to be a superpower in order to at least oppose China. Therefore, they will not get away from the Su-57, but they will shake their nerves significantly.

[LastPS]

but it’s a fact: over 20 years of service, 195 F-22 aircraft were shot down... one balloon!

Mmmm, what was the F-22 supposed to shoot down? Firstly, this aircraft is a pure interceptor, which is based exclusively on US territory, and secondly, how many American fighters, in principle, have shot down aircraft over these 20 years? Why these insinuations?

But the F-35, which produced more than 1 units, is no better: zero. More than five hundred American F-000s have not destroyed anything in 35 years.

How many planes has the US Air Force shot down in the last 10 years?

This is an airplane whose place is in the class of light fighters, along with the Mitsubishi F-2 and SAAB JAS.39 Gripen.

The Gripen is the best light fighter in the world, for some reason no one says that it is bad. Tejas is a replacement for the 21st and it will obviously be better, because it is more modern, although it has been developed for almost 40 years.

but Pakistani F-16s will eat Tejas for breakfast without butter

Let me remind you that the author in his article about the Mig-21 said that the Indian 21s are competitive with the 16s, but the Tejas, apparently, are not.

[wladimirjankov]

And it is quite possible that we will see the Su-57 in the skies of India

We'll see if we finally bring it and its engines to fruition and again agree to sell the Indians for free a license for the transfer of technology and its production in India, as was the case with the SU-30. No one in the world does this, does not sell technology for their newest aircraft, not even the French for their far from new Rafaels. But we are not like everyone else. But we have already lost the Indian market anyway. We have nothing more to offer the Indians. In conventional weapons we have fallen behind and have lost competitiveness. The SVO showed this to everyone. Our vaunted air defense allows primitive enemy UAVs to fly to Kazan, Nizhny Novgorod and Moscow. Our ships are also unable to defend against his naval drones (BEC). Our artillery is inferior to NATO models in range and it is difficult for it to conduct counter-battery warfare against it. Our friends and enemies see all this in India and not only in it.

[Phoenix_2]

Everything is in money, but it’s weak not to steal and don’t take money out of the border, we need to raise the country for our eggs, everything won’t reach all our pockets, they can’t fill it like this, and the storyteller horseradish and his gang got up from their knees until the age of 30 and will continue to be our unsurpassed guarantor