Su-30MKI: and again dancing with elephants

77
Su-30MKI: and again dancing with elephants

Well, very interesting things are happening in India. At the end of the year, and in general, Indian traditional dances with elephants began. And they began when the commander of the Indian Air Force, Chief Marshal aviation Vivek Ram Chaudhary said that the Su-30MKI, after a large-scale modernization by the Indian aircraft manufacturer HAL, will no longer be considered a Russian aircraft.

This, of course, is an anecdote, but you can also say about the F-16 that it is not American, because in Europe alone 8 companies from 5 countries worked on assembling aircraft and every third American-assembled aircraft had a center section brought to the USA from the Fokker plant. in the Netherlands, and every third fuselage tail section was supplied to the USA from the SABCA plant in Belgium. And nothing, an American plane!



Mr. Chief Marshal emphasized that the Su-30MKI was modernized by 78% using domestic technologies, including an airborne active phased array radar, aircraft missiles, situation lighting and avionics. Well, in general, one can only be happy for the Indian military industry, but excuse me, 78% of the aircraft does not consist of the above.

It’s worth noting right away that radar with AFAR is great, but in many countries, local air force aircraft easily serve with conventional radars, and nothing works. Avionics are a very important component, missiles, bombs, connection to satellites - everything is needed. But it can be done.

The only thing the plane definitely won’t take off without is the engine and the fuselage with wings.


It is clear that, in general, everything needs to be considered as a whole, but I repeat: there is a basis and an engine - radar and missiles will follow. Now, if an Indian engine were installed on the Su-30MKI, then yes, something could be said about the fact that the aircraft is completely Indian.

However, there is no engine... The state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited really “failed” to build an engine even for the analogue of JAS 39, the Indian Tejas light fighter. And we had to ask the Americans for an engine for a “fully Indian fighter”, which was supposed to replace the Russian/Soviet MiG-21 and MiG-27. And as a result, the “very Indian” Tejas is equipped with American General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines. This is also “import substitution” in Indian style. But nothing has been heard yet about the Indian folk engine Kaveri.

And this is how the modernized Su-30MKI was recorded in the “4,5+” generation. In general, the invention of a new classification looks exciting and, most importantly, opens up wide possibilities. Soon, according to the Indian classification, aircraft “4,85” and “4,75+” will appear. Why is it not entirely clear, probably to make it more convenient for the Ugandans to sell.

And this is not the author’s intention, this was again voiced by Mr. Chief Marshal of Indian Aviation.


Air Chief Marshal of India Vivek Ram Chaudhary

“The Su-30MKI will be significantly modernized at the first stage in order to become a formidable 4,5+ generation aircraft complex, which will be in service with the Indian Air Force along with other domestically produced aircraft.”



In general, “domestic production” in India also means assembly from kits. So, if you look, almost half of the Air Force fleet is produced in India, but there are nuances. And these nuances are engines.

In India, they couldn’t produce their own engines, and they still can’t. In this regard, China with its breakthrough looks much more progressive, and all the Indians can do is either simply buy aircraft (like the French Mirage 2000) or assemble aircraft using kindly provided technologies and engines (like the Su-30MKI).

It’s hard to say why planes change citizenship at the same time.

But the heart of every aircraft, even Indian, is imported. It started with the first "Indian" aircraft, the HAL HF-24 Marut, which entered history Indian Air Force as India's first indigenously produced combat aircraft.


Although they didn’t say that it was their own design, because the general designer of Marut was none other than Kurt Tank. Yes, that same Doctor of Technical Sciences, Kurt Waldemar Tank, creator of the Focke-Wulfs FW.200 “Condor”, FW.58, FW.190 and Ta.152. Having built aircraft for Argentina, Tank moved to India (in Germany he was prohibited from working on the creation of aircraft) and in 1961 the Marut he created flew.

True, on the Bristol Siddley “Orpheus” 703 engine. In the seventies, the Indians established a licensed assembly of these engines, but alas, the aircraft that was designed Tank, like supersonic, never broke the speed of sound. And this is not a matter of the German’s mistakes; we know that he knew how to design airplanes. The British "Orpheus", assembled by Indian hands, sang so-so.

So there is a difference between an Indian assembled aircraft and an Indian made aircraft. There is nothing wrong with the assembly; iPhones are also assembled in China, from components made in the USA, Japan, and South Korea. And, by the way, 25% of all iPhones are assembled in India, so for some reason they do not become Indian.

The modernization that Mr. Chief Marshal spoke about is a very difficult matter. Throwing out one block from the “filling” and putting another in its place, registering it in the software and ensuring pairing with other blocks is a very difficult task. And work to modernize avionics is also very promising.


But what are the Indians going to do with the airframe and engine?

Here we have it clear. We are working hard to unify the existing aircraft fleet. That is, Su-30 of all modifications in service in the Air Force and naval aviation will begin to reach the level of the Su-35S. That is, modernize according to the installations for the Su-30SM2.

What does it mean? This means that the engine is changed first. Instead of the AL-31FP there will be an AL-41F-1S from the Su-35S, more powerful, more economical and also with a plasma ignition system. Plus, the AL-41F-1S has a longer service life.

Yes, electronics will not remain the same. In addition to everything that relates to engine control, do not forget that the AL-31FP is “forced, rotary”, that is, capable of changing the thrust vector by an angle of up to ±15° in the vertical plane. And the AL-41F1S engine is all-aspect, that is, the thrust vector can be changed within ±16° in any direction, ±20° in the plane of the wing.

Plus, instead of the Bars radar, they will install Irbis.

This is the understanding of modernization.

By the way, representatives of the Indian Air Force were offered almost the same modernization: replacing the AL-31FP with the AL-41F1S and replacing the Barsa with the Irbis-E radar. But the Indians considered the cost of modernization unacceptable and in a press statement in December 2023 about the delivery of Su-30MKI fighters, the AL-41F1S engine was not mentioned.


Meanwhile, in India itself they began to ask substantive questions. The Indian publication Frontier India was seriously concerned about whether spending 7,5 billion dollars on modernizing the Su-30MKI is justified if it does not provide for improved flight characteristics? And he openly says that “the Su-30MKI is no longer what it was before.”

In some ways, our Indian colleagues are right: the first aircraft were received by India in 2002, that is, in fact, 22 years ago. And a total of 272 fighter aircraft were received and assembled at HAL factories, which is generally a more than respectable figure.

And the Su-30MKI has already had modernizations: for the use of Indian avionics and weapons systems. Thus, the Su-30MKI acquired the BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile and the Astra air-to-air missile.

In general, the figure of 22 years is not entirely correct; this only applies to the first batches of aircraft assembled in Russia. And the first Su-30MKI, assembled from a kit in India, took off in October 2005. So everything is not so sad, and although one cannot but agree with the Indians that the Su-30MKI is indeed somewhat outdated, this obsolescence certainly cannot be called critical.

The Su-30MKI, when it was created, was created to meet Indian requirements. The Indians could put forward them because they were very large buyers, and therefore had a certain influence on both the market and sellers.

All design bureaus that carried out the Su-30MKI program from 1995 to 2004 produced an aircraft that actually entered the top of the best. Yes, it was not a fifth-generation fighter, but at that time the fifth generation was generally represented by one F-22. But somehow I can’t even raise my hand to call such a plane the fourth. The Su-30MKI had too many features that distinguished it from the representatives of the fourth:
- AL-31FP engines with controlled thrust vector and remote control system included in a single control loop. This did not provide super-maneuverability in the full sense of the term, but the aircraft was superior in capabilities to many of its colleagues in the world.
- decent combat characteristics, which were provided by a powerful pulse-Doppler radar with a rotary phased array. This is the range of detection and tracking of targets, the ability to work on ground targets, and so on.
- wide-screen multifunctional information output devices, the so-called “glass cockpit” principle.
- the principle of open architecture, which made it possible to combine the operation of Russian-made avionics systems and third-party manufacturers.

In general, at the time of the start of deliveries to India, the Su-30MKI was absolutely consistent with its tasks: gaining air superiority, air defense, long-term patrol and escort, destruction of ground and sea targets, suppression of enemy air defenses, blocking enemy actions and close air support.


I would also like to say a few words about avionics, since the Indian military so wants to modernize it.

Back when the Su-30MKI was just a Su-30MK, and the work of the transition period was going on, that is, these are the years around 1995-1999, even then the avionics was equipped with a sighting system “in full”, that is, an aiming system in which would include a radar sighting system, a satellite navigation system (initially GLONASS/NAVSTAR), an optical-electronic sighting and navigation system with a laser inertial navigation system, helmet-mounted target designators, indicators on the windshield, multifunctional color liquid crystal indicators with the ability to mix images.

This was a more than serious set for the late nineties. Many countries could not boast of having such equipped aircraft in their air forces.

We add to this the very powerful N011 radar with a phased array antenna (yes, not with an active antenna, but 4,5 kW in pulsed mode), which was truly universal, that is, it worked both against air and ground/surface targets, and , at a very impressive range.

The Bars radar allowed the aircraft, having detected a target beyond the range of missile weapons, to fly in radar silence mode, and when reaching the distance of effective use of missile weapons, target designation data was simply updated during the period of short illumination of the radar target.

In general, the aircraft was, if not a breakthrough, then certainly at the world level. At least, sales of Su-30MKA versions to Algeria and Su-30MKM to Malaysia more than confirm this.


Over time, Indian Su-30s have been modernized, and not always with Russian developments. But this is the owner’s choice, and Israeli electronics are in demand in the world. And bombs in Israel are made quite modern, so the choice is justified.

Another question is that the combat capabilities are not always at least sufficient, so it is understandable why the Indian Ministry of Defense is so eager to improve the Su-30MKI, and even all 272 units on its own.

You can look through a crack in the fence and see how the Indians plan to do this.

Of course, the Indian military has a modernization plan. 272 aircraft is not a joke, it is a very impressive force. Moreover, if this power is used correctly.

The Indian state aircraft manufacturing company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is going to focus on new weapons systems that are planned to be integrated into the Su-30MKI. These are the modern Rudram anti-radar missile and the Nirbhay long-range subsonic cruise missile.


“Rudram” is not a missile, it is a whole family of missiles, which, according to the creators’ idea, should identify enemy radio sources (radars, communication systems, electronic warfare systems) and be aimed at them with further destruction of the latter. The family of missiles must be launched from all Indian Air Force fighter aircraft at the entire range of altitudes and speeds.


The subsequent missiles “Rudram-2” and “Rudram-3” will differ from the first model in their flight range, speed and sensor sensitivity.

The homing system of the Rudram family of missiles is planned to be very diverse: passive and active radar, inertial and satellite navigation, thermal imaging channels.

The Indian Ministry of Defense very seriously counts on new types of weapons and their effectiveness in breaking through enemy air defenses. As the practice of the Northern Military District has shown, anti-radar missiles capable of launching detection and tracking stations, command posts and anti-aircraft missile systems are a very serious contribution to the overall victory.

Some characteristics are already known for Rudram-1. Length - 5,5 m. Starting weight - 600 kg. Warhead weight - 60 kg. Flight speed is more than 2M. CEP - 5-10 m. Flight range from 100 to 250 km, effective target destruction was noted at 140 km.


The estimated range of “Rudram-2” is 300 km, and “Rudram-3” is 550 km. It is difficult to say how successful this will be, but the numbers are impressive.

The Nirbhay cruise missile, or more precisely, what will be done based on the work on this missile.


This is a very long-running project that has been going on since 2007 with average success and last year the project was closed. However, the developments will be used in other projects, because India needs a cruise missile with a flight range of more than 1 km, which will allow it to “keep” its neighbors – Pakistan and China – on their toes.

The missile was 6 meters long, 0,52 meters wide, had a wingspan of 2,7 meters and weighed about 1500 kg. The range is about 1 km; at this range, Nirbhay is capable of delivering 500 different types of warheads weighing from 24 to 200 kg, depending on the mission.

The best aircraft for launching such a missile in the air is undoubtedly the Su-30MKI.


Well, don’t discount the BrahMos, which recently underwent another modernization and has firmly entered the list of weapons of the Su-30MKI. The new BrahMos ER variant can fly at a speed of 2-3 Mach for a distance of up to 500 km, which makes this anti-ship missile quite nasty weapons for the opponent.

What else does the Indian military want to modernize:
- practically new cockpit with modern touch screens;
- improved on-board digital computer;
- radar with AFAR “Virupaaksha” of our own production.

“Virupaaksha” is, if we understand correctly, a radar with AFAR “Uttam” adapted and adapted to the Su-30MKI RREO. Perhaps even with a number of improved characteristics. True, there are slight doubts, since “Uttam” is not yet in series and is not installed on the same Indian “Tejas”. They don’t talk loudly about “Virupaaksha” either, so it turns out that all of these are unhurried projects and not for tomorrow.

Here comes the understanding that replacing the radar system entails a significant modification of the avionics precisely for this reason. It will be necessary to change a significant amount of electronics, and first of all, the on-board computer, or carry out work to adapt the Indian radar to the Russian computer. Yes, Indian programmers are respected in the world, but...

The work is very difficult. And given that both Indian radars have not yet reached the production stage, anyone may have doubts about whether everything will be done quickly and efficiently within the available budget?

Let me remind you that the modernization of the Su-30MKI under the so-called “Super-Sukhoi” project is estimated at $7,5 billion. That's about $27,5 million per plane.

The figure is worthy and inspires respect. It’s very pleasant that the Indians value our aircraft so much that they are willing to spend almost half the cost on modernization.

However, there are doubts that such a large-scale modernization will be carried out in a short time. This is truly a program that will take several years to implement.

And the question arises: can modernization of this level really be considered complete without affecting the airframe and engines? And how will Indian specialists interface the Russian-made EMDS with their on-board computer? And did they take into account and calculate all possible pitfalls?

There may be many more questions, but the essence does not change. India today is demonstrating its, if not independence, then its desire to be completely independent of Russia. Of course, sanctions and all that. However, it would not be worth making such loud statements that after replacing several blocks the Su-30MKI will become an Indian aircraft. He will never become one, don’t change anything. This is a Russian plane.

But in such conditions, especially in the case of inevitable problems when replacing one equipment with something completely different, you may be left without consultants from among the specialists of the Sukhoi Design Bureau. And this, excuse me, is not dancing. And don’t walk elephants, these are very difficult things. And the Indian military’s demonstration of its independence and power may end completely differently than they expect.

Aviation in general is a very difficult business.
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  1. +10
    16 January 2024 04: 58
    The conclusion for me from the article is that they wanted (or want) the best, but it turns out as always in the Indian way. Another question is how it is stipulated in the contract regarding the intervention of the buyer or operator in the design of the aircraft. They will do so much that they will completely ruin the reputation of the fighter.
    The situation is approximately the same with the Russian Frankenstein Superjet and MS-21. Doesn't the situation with engines resemble the Indian one? The PR around them is the same Indian dance, it’s beautiful to watch, they tell everything authoritatively, but planes with domestic engines and components don’t fly, the ultimate goal of transporting passengers is not there. There is also no plant for the production of engines for them (entirely Russian).
    Although, if I’m not mistaken, maybe not every year, hundreds of billions of rubles are allocated for them.
    I liked the article, thank you. soldier
    1. +13
      16 January 2024 07: 51
      Quote: V.
      Doesn't the situation with engines resemble the Indian one?
      So, the civil helicopters Ansat, Ka-226 and Ka-62 also have imported engines. And Chinese COMAC or Brazilian Embraer also use imported engines. I didn't understand the author
      1. +2
        16 January 2024 09: 10
        You can buy imported engines and equipment, especially if they are good advanced designs, but with the possibility of adapting and producing them on your territory from our materials. It’s better to pay extra for drawings and technology right away than to sit with nothing later. hi
        1. +4
          16 January 2024 20: 07
          Those. Russia has not sold and will not sell the engine production process to anyone... This is the "alpha" and "omega" of the aviation sovereignty of any country... Look at the USA, Britain or France in this matter... China is trying to copy our "engines", but "alas and ah" what a decade...
        2. -1
          17 January 2024 01: 01
          Or you can temporarily install an imported engine while your own is being developed. And this will be better than when, in 10 years, their own engine appears, and for another five years they will test the airframe, when it has already been tested on imported engines.
      2. +2
        16 January 2024 16: 32
        Quote: Stirbjorn
        So, the civil helicopters Ansat, Ka-226 and Ka-62 also have imported engines.


        There is a subtlety here. Ka-62 is a stillborn project. Another proof of the weakening of the Kamov Design Bureau as an independent developer; it has no future, just like the Ka-50 will go straight to the museum, apparently. Ansat and Ka-226 are CIVIL vehicles. And the article talks about MILITARY aircraft. That’s why the Ka-226 has not yet been accepted into service, although there is a huge agricultural need for a lightweight coaxial deck ship. And Ansat also does not go further than training centers.
        For a military vehicle, someone else's engine is a death sentence. If, of course, the army expects the combat vehicle to be used for its intended purpose. Some, for example, hang it with garlands and dance.t :)
        1. +3
          16 January 2024 17: 46
          Quote: abc_alex
          There is a subtlety here. Ka-62 is a stillborn project.....
          The VK-62V engine is being created for the Ka-1600. Can you answer the question why the Klimovites need to develop an engine from scratch that doesn’t fit anywhere except for the Ka-62?
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          on civil helicopters Ansat, Ka-226....
          The VK-650V engine is created for them. Both VK-650 and VK-1600V are not far from launching into series.
          https://youtu.be/Q7R0epGFnRI
          1. 0
            16 January 2024 18: 07
            Quote: Bad_gr
            The VK-62V engine is being created for the Ka-1600. Can you answer the question why the Klimovites need to develop an engine from scratch that doesn’t fit anywhere except for the Ka-62?


            I have no idea. But the Kamovites initially made the Ka-62 “for the foreign market,” and therefore there is an avalanche of foreign components even without an engine. It is not clear whether the design bureau will be able to create a cooperation of producers and replace them with domestic ones. What the developers had in their heads during the development period is completely unclear. But as far as I know, work on the project has now been suspended by Rostec until the Kamov team brings the car back to normal condition.

            Quote: Bad_gr
            The VK-650V engine is created for them.

            I know. But both helicopters are initially civilian. After developing the engine and launching it into series, they only have to be made into military use. And if the niche for the Ka-226 is obvious, then for the Ansat you still need to figure out where to put it... This is a purely civilian vehicle, without the safety systems necessary for military use, not armored and not tested for the use of weapons.
            1. +2
              17 January 2024 23: 20
              Quote: abc_alex
              The Kamovites initially made the Ka-62 “for the foreign market,” and therefore there was an avalanche of foreign components even without an engine.

              The Ka-62 was made primarily for the domestic market - for oil workers, gas workers and other shift workers, for the Ministry of Emergency Situations, Police, local administrations, the National Guard and other needs of a large state - as a more economical replacement for the Mi-8. And for the RF Armed Forces there was interest, both for the Navy MP, the border service, as command and traveling troops, as well as for the assault brigades of the Airborne Forces, Special Forces and other special forces.
              But we were denied engines, even for civilian versions. And the torment of our own development began. And now the engine goes out for testing. As soon as the issue with the engine is resolved, the Ka-62 will appear, and the domestic market is already waiting for it.
              No, oil and gas workers have already purchased Italian analogues, but the Police, the Ministry of Emergency Situations, special services, border guards and the military are waiting for this pepelats. Moreover, the number of Airborne Forces increases by at least 1,5 times, and the Marine Marines of the Navy does not seem to increase by 2+ times.
              Quote: abc_alex
              And if the niche for the Ka-226 is obvious

              Perhaps as a training one and for manning coastal defense ships (if you are talking about the deck version), and for mountainous areas, rescuers, and again for the Police (it has a smaller propeller span, more convenient in the mountains and urban areas. But it will have a decent niche. And it will be completely exported; there are no coaxials at all.
              Quote: abc_alex
              then for Ansat you still need to figure out where to stick it...

              Firstly, also as an educational one, there will be much more of them needed. Well, everywhere where a light, economical helicopter is needed. He won’t need to look for a niche, because all foreign cars in this class will have to be replaced with domestic analogues. So you will need not just a lot of Ansats, but a lot.
              And the VK-1600V engine has been waiting for more than 10 years for a light training aircraft, as well as for a light propeller-driven attack aircraft based on it. This is also useful for local airlines. So these engines are already long overdue and their appearance will finally free up the hands of our aircraft manufacturers in the segment of light and medium helicopters, as well as in the segment of light-engine aviation.
      3. 2al
        +1
        17 January 2024 12: 38
        "Initially, the engine was planned for installation on light Ansat and Ka-226 helicopters, on which Canadian, English and French theater engines have been installed from the very beginning of their mass production to this day."
        https://www.zhukvesti.ru/articles/detail/4453/
    2. +4
      16 January 2024 13: 30
      You can even be glad that now the Indians themselves are responsible for 78% of the equipment on the plane and there will be fewer complaints against us from capricious customers. But the author’s example with engines turned out to be unsuccessful. The first thing that came to my mind was not even imported engines for helicopters and some of our aircraft, such as the Superjet-100, which for some reason we considered ours, being the same 78% imported. And the same KAMAZ (5 series) with a German engine, which was supplied by Germany before the Northern Military District. But no one had the desire to call this model German.
      And anyway, you never know what the Indian air marshal said. Most likely, he did not even have any thoughts of offending Russia and he simply noted the merits of his country in the transition to import substitution.
      1. +3
        16 January 2024 13: 48
        It is necessary to distinguish between purely engines made abroad and engines made according to drawings from abroad in their own factories. Buying either aircraft or car engines is like being addicted to drugs, everything seems pleasant, but your production is dying like drug addicts.
        1. +2
          16 January 2024 14: 14
          Buying either aircraft or car engines is like getting addicted to drugs
          So I’m wondering what happened to our engine building in civil aviation. We started falling behind back in the 70s under the USSR. But most likely they always lagged behind, even during the triumphant march of our airliners such as Tu-134, 154, Il-62, Yak-40, etc.
          Surely they tried and wanted to make their engines more economical and quiet. And if efficiency was not so critical for the USSR at that time, it was more of our private problem, then when the West set its requirements for noise during takeoff and landing over cities, this is where the real squabbles with the West began. They set a deadline after which they promised to ban flights through their airports to anyone who did not meet their standards. But the USSR was never able to make a low-noise engine, and after the collapse of the country, our cunning liberals completely lost faith in their ability... But they needed to fly on something. But 30 years have passed, and the engines are still in single and prototype form. Although the task was set already in the late 90s.
          1. -3
            16 January 2024 14: 32
            What nonsense about the noise of our and Western planes. Stand with your back to the runway and you won’t be able to tell which plane is taking off, ours or a Western one. This is competition and politics to remove a competitor from the sky. Take a sound level meter and measure the noise.
            All jet planes roar over a hundred decibels, a difference of two to five units.
            It is not yet physically and technically possible to make a low-noise jet aircraft.
            A garden cultivator even produces ninety to ninety-five decibels.
            1. +6
              16 January 2024 16: 26
              Quote: V.
              What nonsense about the noise of our and Western planes.

              Nevertheless, it is so. This is where the decline of the domestic civil aircraft industry began. With the introduction of new noise standards in Europe. I think you understand as well as I do that these standards were designed in such a way as to cut off Soviet aircraft from the market; for aircraft of the then Europe, the new standards went relatively smoothly.
              1. 0
                17 January 2024 08: 15
                Read my comment carefully, I wrote the same thing.
            2. +1
              17 January 2024 07: 15
              Soldatov V. (Vladimir Soldatov), ​​Alexey has already answered you essentially and I can add a little of my own. In our city, the approach to Tolmachevo takes place directly above the city beach, where planes are already flying at an altitude of 500-600 meters. And here you could easily, without raising your head, distinguish the Tu-154, Il-86, Il-76 and even the Tu-134, when they were still flying, from any Airbus or Boeing. And the transport Il-76 still flies now and its sound cannot be confused with any other. There is no need to stand with your back to the runway; noise was normalized specifically over residential areas of cities, somewhat far from the airport. For the same reason, in those days they began to install sound-absorbing screens on highways through the residential sector. And all because science and medicine have determined noise thresholds that are harmful to humans and these standards were approved by the WHO (UN).
              I only agree with you that this was a successful step from our competitors and we tried for a long time to fight off these noise requirements and it seems that with the Tu-204 we even entered into the Western norm, but it was too late and we were “gobbled up.”
              1. +5
                17 January 2024 08: 25
                In principle, no one ate us. When the question was raised about not allowing us into Europe because of the alleged noise, ours said that if we don’t fly, then you won’t fly to Russia or in transit over Russia. And everything remained as it was. But this does not mean that we did not work to reduce noise. Well, then 91 came with the traitorous capitalists and our aviation was put under the knife, we ourselves made hara-kiri.
                As a passenger who flew on all types of Soviet and foreign aircraft and as an engineer compared, I did not see any fundamental difference. hi
                1. +2
                  17 January 2024 09: 03
                  Soldatov V. (Vladimir Soldatov, I am impressed by your patriotism and I can hardly force myself to resist some of your arguments. But facts are stubborn things, and there is also such a sham called ICAO, which Russia has joined and the USSR has always been. And it entered with obligations adhere to and implement the recommendations developed by this international body for the development and management of civil aviation... This is something like in sports with WADA, which has been harassing us for 8 years, forcing us to comply with its requirements.
                  Here's the first article that came to my attention, so as not to burden you with gags: It is well written here how it all began and how it hit not only us, but also the United States, which even threatened to ban Concorde flights from Europe.
                  https://lenta.ru/articles/2002/04/01/noise/
                  1. 0
                    17 January 2024 09: 11
                    As a passenger who flew on all types of Soviet and foreign aircraft and as an engineer compared, I did not see any fundamental difference.
                    I also flew on all types of our aircraft, except for the Tu-144. I was delighted with our IL-86 and its unique convenience of taking luggage with you, which you were allowed to take on board and leave in the cargo compartment at the entrance to the plane. And its noises were no worse than foreign ones. But these are just my personal listening sensations, and the ICAO made its technical measurements with special instruments. So what are we arguing about?
                    1. +3
                      17 January 2024 09: 23
                      We both just want to have our own high-quality aircraft.
                      The light did not converge on ICAO like a wedge. Our Motherland is so vast that we can’t live without our own aviation. You can live separately according to your own rules and fly abroad according to ICAO.
                      I wish you health and success. hi
                    2. +1
                      17 January 2024 09: 23
                      We both just want to have our own high-quality aircraft.
                      The light did not converge on ICAO like a wedge. Our Motherland is so vast that we can’t live without our own aviation. You can live separately according to your own rules and fly abroad according to ICAO.
                      I wish you health and success. hi
          2. 0
            25 January 2024 02: 18
            I've heard about this crap. The Perm plant was abandoned for the sake of Boeing, although perhaps this is a different story...
    3. +2
      16 January 2024 18: 37
      I would like to remind you that a military aircraft is a weapon carrier that flies. First, the weapon is a military one, then the aircraft that flies... So, a military aircraft with Indian weapons, which was created by the Indians or on their order, is an Indian military aircraft created on the basis of a Russian aircraft. Nobody calls Chinese drones bought in a store with our weapons and correcting the fire of our guns Chinese. So, the Indian general is right somewhere...
  2. +6
    16 January 2024 05: 17
    . This is a Russian plane.

    J-11 and J-16 are also Russian aircraft. And the engines there were Russian. The Chinese printed as many as 440 of them.
  3. +1
    16 January 2024 05: 43
    The main thing is that they do not write them off and transfer them to Ukraine.
    The weapons sold must be well “tied” to the manufacturer, so that if something happens, they cannot be used against the manufacturer.
    And you say "open architecture".
    1. +3
      16 January 2024 05: 59
      They will most likely not transmit it directly. But through a couple of gasket companies they can resell it.
      After all, Indian-made ammunition ended up in the Krayina - not directly.....
  4. +2
    16 January 2024 06: 06
    However, it would not be worth making such loud statements,

    Talking your tongue is not carrying bags

    And you say ...

    The Americans are putting pressure on the Indian government “with terrible force” for cooperation with Russia. It is very possible that such statements will allow us to say that the level of cooperation with the Russian Federation “has sharply decreased, since India has switched to aircraft almost of its own production”
    1. Eug
      -3
      16 January 2024 17: 35
      And the next step of the demonstration to the United States will be the transfer of “Indian” Su-30s to Ukraine? And the USA PROMISES, in response to this step, to establish F-35 assembly in India with technology transfer and other goodies... we need to be very careful in selling spare parts.
  5. +6
    16 January 2024 06: 08
    It's simple. They called them Indian to sell without asking anyone's permission. Pure business
  6. +11
    16 January 2024 07: 01
    And they began when the commander of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhary, announced that the Su-30MKI, after a large-scale modernization by the Indian aircraft manufacturer HAL, would no longer be considered a Russian aircraft.

    This is how inflated sensations are born. Vivek Ram Chaudhary did not say that the Su-30MKI would not be considered a Russian aircraft. He stated that it would be a platform for Indian equipment.
    sputniknews.in/20231218/what-will-change-in-indias-su-30mkis-post-hal-upgrade-5878609.html
  7. +1
    16 January 2024 07: 46
    Yes, let them do what they want, the main thing is that they pay money, we do the same. We buy Chinese spare parts and assemble them from us, and now it’s a domestic development. Yes, the same geranium, and unfortunately we have many examples of such developments. And the article is really well written, respect.
  8. +4
    16 January 2024 08: 57
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    Instead of the AL-31FP there will be an AL-41F-1S from the Su-35S, more powerful, more economical and also with a plasma ignition system.

    The ignition system of the AL-41F-1S is “old” - OKS surface discharge spark plugs, FKS fire track.

    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    Plus, the AL-41F-1S has a longer service life.

    Not more. It is only now reaching a resource equal to the AL-31FP.

    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    And the AL-41F1S engine is all-aspect, that is, the thrust vector can be changed within ±16° in any direction, ±20° in the plane of the wing.

    No, the nozzle rotation is only in one plane (see from 11:57):

  9. +4
    16 January 2024 09: 03
    In general, the invention of a new classification looks exciting

    Generation 4,5 was invented not by Indians, but by Americans back in 2004. Even the author is known - Joe Yoon, an American engineer who worked for various aircraft manufacturing companies and NASA. He also wrote down the Su-30 in this generation.
    (https://aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0182.shtml)
  10. -5
    16 January 2024 11: 01
    One thing can be said: let them think that only Russia wants from this their Wishlist, not cold, not hot, in Russia they understand perfectly well and keep their Wishlist under control, and so let it be Hindu
  11. KCA
    +2
    16 January 2024 11: 01
    I wonder what iPhone components are made in the USA and Japan? Can you list it? Display and memory Samsung, processors made by TSMC and everything else China and the Chinese island of Formosa
    1. +4
      16 January 2024 16: 46
      Well, it’s neatly written there and says Designed in.... and not Made in at all....
      1. KCA
        -1
        17 January 2024 09: 15
        This is how it was developed by the Russians, Chinese and Indians
  12. +8
    16 January 2024 11: 48
    Isn’t the situation with the domestic auto industry reminiscent of the Indian one? With a slant for the worse in the sense of insanity?
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. 0
    16 January 2024 12: 29
    I wonder, when such an “Indianized” plane crashes (and, as far as I can tell, the Indians very actively and regularly crash their planes) - whose will it be considered? Russian (like - it’s not us, it’s the Russians who set this up for us) - or Indian, “domestic”, with all the consequences and responsibility?
    1. 0
      17 January 2024 11: 46
      Quote: Tarasios
      I wonder, when such an “Indianized” plane crashes (and, as far as I can tell, the Indians very actively and regularly crash their planes) - whose will it be considered?

      It's simple. While the plane is flying, it's "the pride of India and the visible embodiment of the capabilities of Indian industry".
      As soon as it falls (for any reason) it's "The Russians have once again supplied us with low-quality equipment". smile
      There was already a story with the same Su-30MKI in 2015 with "unreliable Russian engines", which after a couple of weeks turned out to be Indian-assembled motors, assembled with deviations from the technical process and serviced in violation of the instructions.
      India operates a modification of the Su-30MKI, not very different from the Algerian version. At the same time, according to the Minister of Defense, the Indian Air Force already had five accidents and 69 incidents with AL-31FP engines manufactured by HAL since 2012. According to Parrikar, of these 69 incidents, 33 were caused by chips in the oil, 11 caused vibration in the engine, and eight were due to very low pressure in the oil supply. Accusations were made regarding the poor quality of the assembly, which quickly resulted in a fatigue effect that caused cracks, which led to the appearance of metal fragments and the oil circuit. The investigation also drew attention to the quality of the oil. By order of the Indian Ministry of Defense, measures have been taken: the use of better quality oil, the alteration and replacement of welding and mounting components between mechanical parts.
      © bmpd
  15. +2
    16 January 2024 12: 31
    Oh... not only ours can do import substitution.
  16. +5
    16 January 2024 12: 36
    The Indians decided to modernize the SU-30MKI on their own. The author was very excited by this news. Great! The author's patriotic pride has suffered irreparable damage, and I understand it. But. Why is it completely indifferent to me how the Indians will modernize the aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force, not Russia, and what they will then be considered to be, Indian or Russian? Maybe I'm soulless? I'll have to take some time to delve into myself. Thank you very much to the author for the food for thought.

    PS. Why can’t you just write that the Indians decided to modernize their SU-30 this way and that, these are the pros, these are the cons, and not fight in jingoistic hysteria?
  17. +2
    16 January 2024 13: 08
    Why is the author so excited? . Their plane, they do what they want. And what they say about such a modernization, as a result of which it became a completely different aircraft, let them say so. These are just words. When they realize that they have taken upon themselves beyond their strength, they will inevitably come to us. And here it will be possible to set a good price and this price will be paid.
  18. -3
    16 January 2024 13: 08
    The article is great!
    Thank you.
    I wonder whether cooperation with India, which is not always beneficial for Russia, will continue under new circumstances (supply to Ukroreich of Indian 155 mm shells)?

    The question is rhetorical.

    We supply a lot of things to Western and Eastern Europe, and they (the Europeans) fill Ukroreich with weapons that kill Russian soldiers and civilians (even on the Russian mainland).

    The main thing is not to break contracts!
    Indians are not Iranians, about whom, at the instigation of Zionist Israel, they wiped their feet by terminating the contract for the supply of S300.
    The Israelis then mocked for a long time, screaming that they sold the Russian Federation “ancient” UAV models for betraying Iran.
    A famous Israeli general on local (Zionist) TV openly laughed at us on air.
  19. osp
    +5
    16 January 2024 13: 21
    And how will Indian specialists interface the Russian-made EMDS with their on-board computer?

    They don't match at all.
    The EMDS is a completely autonomous system that has its own computers in each control channel, its own air/flight parameters sensors and its own power supplies.
    The radar has everything of its own, usually 2-3 digital computers there that are interfaced with other aircraft systems - for example, with an air signals system, a weapon control system, etc.
    Easily interface via ARINC-429 channels.
  20. +2
    16 January 2024 15: 08
    All the fuss there was due to the desire to introduce third-party missiles (Israeli and Indian) into the Su30MKI arsenal, for which the Russian Federation did not disclose the characteristics of the PFAR ...... and ours are slowing down with the Su30SM2 version (which also corresponds to the SuperSukhoi version) . And you need to understand that every year there are fewer and fewer people who want to buy an expensive heavy fighter without AFAR. The competitor, the F15EX, has already begun production, and its Arabic versions have been flying for a long time. At the same time, the Su30SM2 is a variant of the Su35S (10s), and the option with avionics and a 5th generation radar from the Su57 already suggests itself.
    1. +1
      16 January 2024 16: 37
      Quote: Zaurbek
      and ours are slowing down with the Su30SM2 version

      I don’t understand, what does the “SM” (Serial Modernized) version have to do with the “MKI” (Modernized Commercial Indian) version?
      1. 0
        17 January 2024 09: 17
        India and Super Dry have been around for a long time. Ours also had an option....from which SM2 grew. Otherwise, what is the point of Su30SM2 if you can immediately make a 2-seater Su35S?
        1. -1
          18 January 2024 01: 41
          Quote: Zaurbek
          India and Super Dry have been around for a long time. Ours also had an option....from which SM2 grew. Otherwise in what is the point of Su30SM2, if you can immediately make a 2-seater Su35FROM?


          I've asked this question many times already. I am sure that the Su-30 is completely superfluous in the information security nomenclature of our army. Its production should be discontinued in favor of the two-seat Su-35. Why this has not been done is Pogosyanovism. The Sukhoi Design Bureau stupidly redistributed the budget in its favor. That is why the development of the Su-35UB (and this was ALWAYS an absolutely mandatory procedure) was simply stopped. Obviously, the original Su-30 had difficulty entering the troops, and it was necessary to somehow turn it on.
          The SM2 did not grow out of the Su-30, but rather from the Su-30MKI. That is, a purely export version. In view of the inability of the Sukhoi corporation to fulfill all the promises that it made during the period of developed Pogosyanism.
          Therefore, if the Indians create monsters “super dry”, then they create monsters from their “set”. But ours are just from their model.
          1. 0
            18 January 2024 10: 20
            The link to cm2 is purely commercial, so that we can then make offers for modernization to users of Su30mki, mkA, mkk......but I think that there is an extra Su34......and instead of all 4++ you need to make a Su35 with two seats, and the place of the su35s itself is taken by the su57
    2. +1
      16 January 2024 18: 53
      They have been writing for a long time that we are producing the Su-30SM2! How many jingoistic patriots downvoted me when I proved to them that this was propaganda. The author of the article does not think so. So why isn't there a terrible howl? They have allegedly been supplying the Navy Air Force with the Su-30SM2 for three years now! So how to count? Sit down...
      1. +1
        17 January 2024 00: 23
        Quote: Totvolk80
        They have been writing for a long time that we are producing the Su-30SM2! How many jingoistic patriots downvoted me when I proved to them that this was propaganda. The author of the article does not think so. So why isn't there a terrible howl? They have allegedly been supplying the Navy Air Force with the Su-30SM2 for three years now! So how to count? Sit down...

        Navy SM2s still come with AL-31FP and Bars. There is nothing from the SU-35 in them.
    3. 0
      16 January 2024 20: 14
      Zaurbek, why did you like Afar so much? A?
      1. 0
        17 January 2024 00: 27
        Quote from Savage3000
        Zaurbek, why did you like Afar so much? A?

        Reliability and better noise immunity.
        All modern aircraft (including the Su-57) would not be equipped with it if there was no point.
        1. 0
          17 January 2024 02: 27
          1984,

          Noise immunity is no different. And perhaps it’s even better with PFAs, due to hardware control of the phase shifters, and not through software, like with AFAs.

          Reliability.. in theory yes. In practice, there seems to be no such problem. The PFA transmitter is quite reliable.
          1. 0
            17 January 2024 09: 19
            Our modern PFARs are the top and the end of the road. Now they are plus or minus wounds with modern AFAR, but further development is only for AFAR.
          2. 0
            18 January 2024 14: 29
            https://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1563


            There is a lot of interesting information here.
            1. 0
              18 January 2024 16: 34
              There is a lot of interesting information here
              And what do we see in the very first message:
              Also, the Irbis has a rotating antenna - it gives a significantly larger field of view. It also rotates according to the roll - you can choose the plane of polarization depending on the situation. And the Irbis has a noticeably wider stripe. And what does this give: greater immunity to noise, greater secrecy.
              that is, the existing American Afars still have to grow and grow to
              PFAR - the top and end of the road

              By the way, this quote also refutes the message in this thread about better noise immunity of afars...
            2. 0
              20 January 2024 00: 31
              Zaurbek, thank you of course, but I studied the topic a little.
  21. +2
    16 January 2024 17: 45
    The only thing the plane definitely won’t take off without is the engine and the fuselage with wings.

    It is very sad that Russia cannot offer anything else to India.
    Here we have it clear. We are working hard to unify the existing aircraft fleet. That is, the Su-30 of all modifications, which are in service in the Air Force and Naval Aviation, will begin to reach the level of the Su-35S. That is, modernize according to the installations for the Su-30SM2.

    What does it mean? This means that the engine is changed first. Instead of the AL-31FP there will be an AL-41F-1S from the Su-35S, more powerful, more economical and also with a plasma ignition system. Plus, the AL-41F-1S has a longer service life.

    But it’s not a fact that this is exactly what we will do. So far, no one seems to have announced specific modernization options. And it is not clear whether this will be done at all with existing aircraft, or only with new ones.
  22. -2
    16 January 2024 19: 07
    The brave Indian marshal seems to be far from the basics - the basics of creating aircraft in general, with the addition of the word “actually”. In the "frenzy" of the Indo-American "hugs" that began, in the military field, probably, the air marshal, the Americans, in the process of "hugs" "squeezed out" common sense and reason... Or maybe they "brought in" a "lamb in a piece of paper" for " loosening the tongue on the pages of the local media... And perhaps the Chief Marshal is itching in his neocortex about the impossibility of creating his own weapons from scratch and without outside help... The entire history of Indian military-technical thought is based on Soviet - Russian or “foreign”.... I think that a very competent, cautious and thoughtful Indian politician, like Narendra Modi, will find a way to explain to the brave air marshal “from whose hand modern India pecks” its military power....
  23. +4
    16 January 2024 19: 21
    Well, the author is pushing jingoistic crap again. Apparently, the Indian bros and AFAR turned out to be better than ours, so we have to talk nonsense.
    In fact, with good avionics and the Mig-21 is an excellent aircraft. It is not the airframe that makes a fighter a fighter today.
    1. -2
      16 January 2024 20: 16
      Dear “also a doctor”! “Songs” have been sung about Indian AFARs, even by Brahmins, since 2000, and they go to Russia or Israel to buy on-board electronics. And about the glider: without a SPECIAL glider, the aircraft is just an aircraft, but not a fighter, even with wonderful avionics, weapons and a competent pilot...
      1. +1
        17 January 2024 09: 22
        The Indians are following the right path...there is no need to put all their eggs in the Russian Federation's basket...and the Russian Federation does not do all the components better than anyone else. And many countries are easier to issue a license...
  24. -2
    16 January 2024 20: 12
    Mr. Chief Marshal emphasized that the Su-30MKI was modernized by 78% using domestic technologies, including an airborne radar station with an active phased array antenna,
    + + + + + + + + + + + + +

    Skomorokhov, so it was or will be???? Have you already replaced the radar?


    In general... Indian Afar is an oxymoron. I hope I wrote this word correctly)
  25. +2
    16 January 2024 20: 18
    Also, the author’s idea that the radar and missiles are bullshit, but the engines and performance characteristics are everything, is not worth a damn. The plane detects and strikes via radar. And this is the basis of the plane
  26. 0
    16 January 2024 21: 43
    Well, let the Indians think that this is now a plane made in India. This doesn’t make us hotter... When they want to buy our planes, then we can rejoice... Until then, their dancing won’t add money to us...
  27. +1
    16 January 2024 23: 44
    The state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited really “failed” to develop an engine even for an analogue of JAS 39

    Out of pure curiosity: what language is this written in?
  28. +2
    17 January 2024 12: 31
    Maybe we shouldn’t scold the Indians for the fact that they can’t make the engine themselves (yet), but think about why the Indians themselves modernize planes and don’t use our services?!

    Probably all this happens because our avionics system on the Su-30 is considered by the Indians to be outdated and not meeting modern requirements.
  29. +2
    17 January 2024 14: 35
    “There are many letters, but little meaning.” So what is the main message of this sheet? Can't the Indians cope? Or is the Sukhoi Design Bureau crying that the money is passing by? Or have the Indians encroached on the “sacred cow” of Russian “industry” - calling 100% Chinese crafts with crooked, re-glued nameplates a Russian product?))
    So, judging by what the Indians are doing and have done for their Air Force, they will succeed sooner or later, well, with the exception of the engine, most likely, they will get there in the medium term.
    And this, excuse me, is not dancing. And don’t walk elephants, these are very difficult things.

    yeah, tell this to the manufacturers of “Russian” monitors, who, upon opening, discovered that the Russian controller on the board was simply soldered))) but not connected to anything, and the control is handled by Chinese/Taiwanese/Korean mikruha, which is what was originally on this board original Chinese manufacturer))
  30. +1
    17 January 2024 19: 42
    Some kind of rudeness, not an article :)
    Dear Roman, you can’t write so many extra letters.
    And on the topic... The Hindu general simply created a foundation for the future. There is a principle - to use aircraft made in India. So now you can safely buy the SU 30mki and say that this is not a Russian aircraft for the Indian army, but a Russian spare part for an Indian aircraft. It’s just a very large spare part, but it’s a spare part, because it’s impossible to work without Indian cabin lighting
    That's all :)
  31. -1
    18 January 2024 02: 21
    Well... conclusion. Various pros and cons...hmm better worse...
    Unfortunately, the real impotence of Russian aircraft design and aircraft manufacturing is obvious! I’m generally silent about Russian ... electronics ... with its share of “opportunities” and therefore the world market
    Moreover, the degradation is exponential! unlike the times of the USSR!
  32. 0
    18 January 2024 20: 37
    The author took Marshall's words literally. His statement is more political, this is how our Indian comrades express to us their displeasure with our behavior. Which one exactly is a separate topic.
    But the detailed review made by the author of the article is interesting. Thank you.
  33. 0
    19 January 2024 17: 50
    So they took and offended the Hindus, but you think dancing and walking elephants is easy?
  34. 0
    22 January 2024 10: 41
    With what reverence the author talks about the “plasma” ignition system. :) Which was already in full use on the Mi-8. And even before...
  35. 0
    26 March 2024 11: 43
    Sad .....
    And as always:
    - Loot defeats Good......
    Our people are probably entangled in corruption “schemes”. The Indians are choking with saliva in anticipation of the "dough"...
    Is there at least something or someone Normal in this World???????