The most protected ship in history

465
The most protected ship in history


...Team
Iron strings of orders -
And there's a breaker in the sea
Stretched out from the wall.
Emergency situations,
Tasks have iron deadlines
And the waves are cast
With an iron tint.
Valery Belozerov.

In the first half of the twentieth century, it was impossible to imagine a warship without structural protection. In one form or another it was present everywhere. Even modest-sized destroyers had anti-fragmentation armor for the wheelhouse, boiler casings and torpedo tubes.



Representatives of each class differed in their percentage of armor weight and displacement.

For the Japanese light cruiser Yubari, this value was only 8%. In absolute terms - 350 tons of armor plates, which were enough to equip a “citadel” with a length of 58 meters. The side of the cruiser along its entire height was covered with a belt 1,5 inches (38 mm) thick. Attached to its upper edge was a 1-inch (25 mm) thick deck. Modest indicators that provided only anti-fragmentation protection.

The designers of the heavy cruiser Mogami spent 15% of the standard displacement on providing protection. The figure of 2 tons indicated that the Mogami had impressive anti-ballistic armor.

For the Soviet Project 26-bis cruiser, this ratio reached 18%. Load items and displacement are related nonlinearly, so the smaller the ship, the greater the proportion of displacement that falls on its hull and power plant. The designers of the Maxim Gorky achieved outstanding results, managing to place armor protection weighing 8 tons on a light cruiser with a displacement of 200 tons.

The German “pocket battleships” of the Deutschland class allocated a quarter of their displacement to provide protection. Another record figure for ships with a standard displacement of 11–12 thousand tons.

On capital ships of the 1930s and 1940s, the weight of armor protection began to clearly outpace other load items.

To protect the Yamato, 20 thousand tons of armor plates were used. However, such a figure did not look stunning compared to the size of the Yamato itself. According to design data, the weight of the armor was only a third of the ship's standard displacement.

In the smaller weight category, the same ratio (33%) was possessed by the Italian Littorio-type aircraft and the British King George V.

Much more massive “shells” were carried by US Navy battleships.

More than 41% of the ship’s displacement was allocated to provide protection for the North Caroline class ship! For the larger and more advanced Iowas, this figure decreased slightly - to 39%. In reality, this meant the presence of 18–19 thousand tons of armor, depending on the characteristics of each ship.

With all the spectacular ratios and the presence of protection, second only to the Yamato in mass, the Iowa design was distinguished by daring and dubious decisions. Which does not allow us to draw clear conclusions when comparing it with competitors.

And now we have reached the top of the list. The furthest went were representatives of the German school, whose extreme armor was included in history.

The Bismarck's records were predictable due to the size of the ship. But it was quite unexpected to find another ship in the first place. Small battleship Scharnhorst.


For what purposes was such a high level of security achieved here? In the battleship project, which was considered “undersized” in all other respects. We will talk about this phenomenon in more detail.

Is it fair to call the Scharnhorst a battleship?


During this period, several projects of large ships arose, whose classification remained a mystery to historians.

The first group consisted of “supercruisers”, designed to combat conventional heavy cruisers. A striking example is the Alaska, for which the Yankees came up with the mysterious designation CB-1 (cruiser big). Well, a very large cruiser.

This also includes the unfinished Japanese B-65 project.

They went even further in the Soviet Union, where after the war a series of 36-ton Project 500 cruisers (Stalingrad) was laid down.

The second category were "small battleships", which were built for special tactical tasks, as well as due to various political and financial restrictions. The French “Dunkirk” and the German “Scharnhorst” fall under this description.

Scharnhorst was a transitional project, in which traces of the Versailles restrictions were still visible. He is called the direct heir of Deutschland, but in reality their paths diverged at the sketch stage. In the Scharnhorst project, the Germans applied all their accumulated experience in creating fast and well-protected battle cruisers of the First World War era.

The Dunkirk, an even more ridiculous and highly specialized “small battleship” with relatively thin armor and 330 mm artillery, was initially considered for the role of the main rival.

The Germans were very keen on creating a worthy opponent, and in the end they ended up with a couple of unique units. "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau".

"Untermensch"


The Scharnhorst main caliber projectile weighed 330 kg.

The British 13,5-inch shell was almost twice as heavy (720 kg). And this value was considered the most “unconvincing” among real battleship calibers. For example, the 16-inch guns of the South Dakota could rain down shells weighing 1 kg on the enemy.

Two of the four Kriegsmarine battleships had ridiculous (by class standards) firepower. The Germans understood the situation and came up with a formula in advance: replacing 3x3 283 mm with 3x2 380 mm.

Alas, even the appearance of six 380-mm guns would not have made the Scharnhorst a full-fledged battleship by the standards of the 1940s. For successful performances in the Major League, he lacked about 5 tons of displacement.

And while maintaining the previous reservation, coupled with the lack of desire to make compromises (an example of such a compromise is the artillery placement scheme on the Richelieu LC), the German problem had the only possible solution. To turn the Scharnhorst into a full-fledged battleship, an additional 10 tons were required. Which had nowhere to appear.

In terms of standard displacement, the “undersized” approximately corresponded to the large cruiser “Alaska”. And that's where all the similarities between them ended.

The total weight of the Alaska reservation was 5 tons (000%).

The Scharnhorst's combat stability was ensured 14 tons of structural protection. The visual equivalent of this value is 200 railway cars with rolled metal.

The weight of the Scharnhorst's armor protection was about 44–45% of its standard displacement. No other ship in history had a more similar ratio.

The result was something unimaginable. The armor made it possible to withstand hits from shells of the largest caliber (381–406 mm). However, the composition of the weapons categorically prohibited the Scharnhorst from approaching an enemy armed with 15/16 inch guns.

In 1941, during a raid in the Atlantic, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau discovered a convoy where the elderly battleship Ramilles (1913) was guarding it. The commanders of the German raiders considered that 283-mm guns would not be able to ensure quick reprisals against such an opponent. The dashing raid threatened to turn into an exhausting duel, where shells weighing 870 kg could arrive in response. Having correctly assessed their chances, the “raiders” disappeared over the horizon...

For all the heaviness of its armor, the Scharnhorst did not look like a clumsy barge. It was built in an era of universal passion for speed and received a power plant of enormous power (160 hp). This value exceeded the performance of the Bismarck power plant. Nowadays, even nuclear cruisers do not have such characteristics. The Scharnhorst's full speed exceeded 000 knots, and its fuel reserve allowed it to cover a distance of 30 miles at 15 knots.


Speed ​​made it possible to dictate “unfair” rules of battle. It is easy to “run away” from a stronger opponent, reserving the right to attack anyone who was obviously weaker. Taking into account the fact that the vast majority of ships had no way to repel the ultra-protected monster with fast-firing 283 mm guns.

An absurd, at first glance, comparison of the Scharnhorst with the Alaska demonstrates that with a similar displacement (30-32 thousand tons), the Germans managed to build a ship with incomparably higher combat qualities.

Considering the scale of the threat posed by it, the Scharnhorst had every reason to be called a battleship.

What were 14 tons of displacement spent on?


The vertical protection of the Scharnhorst was thicker than that of all battleships, including the legendary Yamato. The main armor belt of the Scharnhorst had a thickness of 350 mm.

For comparison: the thickness of the Bismarck belt was 320 mm. North Caroline-class battleships have 300 mm.

"Iowa" had a wedge-shaped belt of variable thickness (from 307 in its upper part to 41 mm in the bottom area).

LKs of the King George V type (up to 380 mm) and, of course, Yamato (410 mm) had significantly thicker belt armor.

But the Germans have prepared one more ace up their sleeve. Like other large German ships, the Scharnhorst received the so-called. carapace armored deck, which was attached with bevels to the lower edge of the belt. In other words, if the projectile nevertheless penetrated the main 350-mm belt, after a few meters a new obstacle stood in its path. The slab is 105 mm thick, and even located at a significant slope. This solution made it possible to repel any fragments or even the projectile itself, which had already spent the lion’s share of its energy penetrating the main belt.

The total thickness of the Scharnhorst's vertical protection (455 mm) was unexpectedly large compared to the performance of any capital ship.

Moreover, all this was achieved without falsifications or simplifications. Unlike American designers, the Germans denied the possibility of using an armor belt shifted inside the hull, considering it unreasonable to leave the outer part of the side unprotected.


The canonical view of the Scharnhorst-class battleship, in which its embossed armor belt becomes clearly visible.

Above the main belt there was an “upper” anti-fragmentation belt 45 mm thick, reaching the height of the upper deck.

455 and 45 – the difference is colossal.

On the other hand, this value corresponds to the thickness of the main armor belt of the cruiser Nuremberg (later Admiral Makarov). In the case of the Scharnhorst, this was considered “light” anti-fragmentation protection, applicable to the upper part of the side. An example was given to remind the reader of the scale we are talking about.

Many of the German battleship's peers (N. Caroline, Richelieu, Yamato) could not even count on such protection. The innovative schemes of the Americans (“South Dakota”, “Iowa”) rejected the very presence of such an element as the “upper belt”. The armor of these ships was walled up deep inside the hull and covered only vital compartments.

Of course, there were projects with even more impressive casemate protection. Thus, the upper belt of “Littorio” had a thickness of 70 mm. But the real record holder was the Bismarck with a value of 145 mm.

But we return again to the baby Scharnhorst.

Its citadel ended at a distance of 41 m from the stem. The remaining part of the hull was covered with belt armor 70 mm thick. She covered it thoroughly, without jokes. The protective “strip” reached the very stem and reached a height of six meters.

A similar belt extended from the citadel towards the stern for a distance of 37 meters.

British or American battleships did not have even a semblance of such protection. The “all or nothing” scheme adopted by the Anglo-Saxons was good on a tropical day, when duels were fought at extreme distances. In such conditions, landmines were not fired, and rare hits from “armor-piercing” weapons could not seriously damage the ends. The main threat came from attacks on the citadel area - and all efforts were aimed at covering vital sections.


Scharnhorst was created for a different theater of war. In the unpredictable conditions of the northern seas, it was considered necessary to have protected ends.

In truth, such a scheme was necessary for any seas. It’s just that most rivals did not have the displacement reserves for such “excesses.”

The remaining parameters of the Scharnhorst were also impressive. In accordance with all the ideas of that time.

Horizontal protection


The Scharnhorst had spaced horizontal protection, consisting of two armored decks. A very archaic solution, nevertheless, it had its merits.

As a rule of thumb, the strength (projectile resistance) of an armor plate is proportional to the square of its thickness. In other words, one thick armored deck provides 4 times better protection than two spaced decks with a total of the same thickness. Therefore, by the beginning of World War II, priority was given throughout the world to schemes with a single (main) armored deck of maximum thickness.

On the other hand, the upper deck left unprotected made the ships overly “sensitive” to hits from aerial bombs.


Scharnhorst remained true to its Teutonic traditions. And its entire upper deck was armored along the entire length of the hull. Such pleasure cost the designers 2 tons of displacement, and the deck thickness was 000 mm.

As demonstrated by examples of other ships, armored decks 50 mm thick successfully withstood hits from 500-pound (200–250 kg) semi-armor-piercing and high-explosive bombs. The problems of these ships (usually cruisers) occurred due to the fact that their armored decks ran at a level just above the waterline. And by this time the bombs had managed to severely damage the hull. In the case of the Scharnhorst, this was only the first layer of protection protecting its upper deck.

For large-caliber armor-piercing bombs, encountering such an obstacle also meant premature arming of the fuse. And what’s even worse is the deformation and violation of the design of the ammunition itself.

Having pierced the upper armored deck of the Scharnhorst, large bombs could travel another 5 meters before they had to meet the main armored deck of the battleship (the total weight of this structure is 3 tons).

The main deck provided protection for the compartments inside the citadel and had a differentiated thickness - from 80 mm above the engine rooms to 95 mm in the area of ​​the ammunition magazines. On bevels it increased to 105 mm.

In the space between the upper and main armored decks there was another battery deck made of “ordinary” structural steel 20 mm thick, the presence of which was not taken into account in the protection scheme.

The total thickness of the horizontal armor (130–155 mm) did not look unusual compared to the indicators of its peers. Such indicators corresponded to the Italian “Littorio” or the British “King George V”. With the difference that the latter had a single (main) armored deck of impressive thickness (127–152 mm), while refusing to protect the upper deck and all the rooms that were located under it.

The design of the Japanese and American giants (1,5–2 times larger than the Scharnhorst) used horizontal protection with values ​​of 200 millimeters or more. And if the multi-layer protection of the Iowa combined the presence of a thick main deck (≈150 mm) with attempts to book the upper deck (37 mm), then the creators of the Yamato made a rash decision.

All the Japanese hopes were pinned on the enormously thick main deck (200...230 mm), which ran too low, leaving significant volumes of the hull without any protection.

In fairness, it is worth noting that Scharnhorst experienced similar problems. Due to its limited displacement, its main deck was level with the waterline. And, as follows from the diagram, all the compartments and rooms in the upper part of the hull had no other protection except the upper armored deck 50 mm thick. However, it was by no means a “bare” body, like the Yamato.

Artillery protection


In addition to the power plant, outstanding parameters and a heavily armored hull, the Scharnhorst was supposed to carry weapons with a total weight of 5 tons. All this also required serious protection.

I will try to highlight the most striking moments for you.

According to German rules, the Scharnhorst's turrets were supposed to have protection at the same level as the main gun turrets of other battleships, regardless of the difference in gun caliber. But the desire to have 360 ​​mm protection in the frontal part of the tower faced the problem of balancing the entire structure. The relatively “lightweight” 11-inch guns could not cope with the task.

As a result, the Scharnhorst towers had one curious feature. An exceptionally thick layer of armor protected the rear of the turret (350 mm).

These delights of German designers took another 2 tons of displacement.



The Gneisenau stern tower, which protected the entrance to Trondheims Fjord. The last shooting took place in 1953.

The Germans took the defense of medium-caliber (mine-resistant) artillery just as seriously. All four turrets with six-inch guns had 140 mm frontal armor and 60 mm thick side walls.

Compared to the German solutions, the 25-mm protection of the SK towers on the battleships Nelson and Yamato simply looked like an inappropriate joke. As for the rest of the British and American battleships of the later period, their armament completely lacked medium caliber. All powers of the Investigative Committee were transferred to universal 5" caliber guns. Therefore, there is no reason for comparison here.

Finale


The structural protection of the Scharnhorst was not limited to just decks, belts and super-protected gun turrets. One could narrate here for hours. About double traverse bulkheads, which provided a total protection thickness of 350–400 mm in some areas. About the armoring of conning towers, the original protection scheme for steering gears and propeller shafts.

Underwater hull protection deserves a separate chapter. Such protection was not the responsibility of thick armor plates. The ability to maintain speed and combat effectiveness after encountering a torpedo/mine has always been determined by the size of the ship itself. Also important were such points as the internal layout and depth of the PTZ (empty compartments that take the impact), the number of emergency generators and the performance of sump pumps. Due to its smaller displacement and narrow hull width (only 20 meters), the Scharnhorst was not as resistant to torpedo hits as its larger rivals. For example, the hulls of American battleships had a standard width of 33 m - and they could have been even “fuller” if their dimensions had not been limited by the Panama Canal.

But even a well-built ship with a standard displacement of 32 thousand tons was a complex and difficult target. As combat chronicles showed, there was no hope of even sinking a Scharnhorst-class battleship with one or two hits below the waterline.

“Scharnhorst” and “Gneisenau” became the leaders in the number of “attempts” made on them. Enormous forces, entire squadrons and air armies of the enemy were involved in the attacks on battleships. But all attempts to destroy them for three years did not give the desired results. "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau" came out of any trouble alive to continue to annoy the British the fleet.

At the beginning of the 21st century, the story of the Scharnhorst is valuable as an example of what level of protection was achieved in the design of a surface ship. After all, even a fraction of those protective measures and techniques would allow modern cruisers to ignore naval attacks drones. And they would not have sunk from single hits from the Harpoons and Neptunes.


What appearance could a modern protected ship have?
465 comments
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  1. -21
    14 January 2024 04: 39
    If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines, the outcome of the war at sea and, as a result, on land, would have been completely different.
    1. +43
      14 January 2024 05: 27
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines

      They did not have the resources for aircraft carriers; they paid enough attention to submarines. You are probably right about battleships, but in hindsight we are all strong; before WWII it was not at all obvious that supremacy at sea would be determined by the presence of aircraft carriers.
      As for the war at sea, there was not even a shadow of a chance against the combined power of the United States and Great Britain. Well, if they had started building one aircraft carrier instead of Tirpitz, the opponents would have built 5 symmetrically.
      The Germans lost their chances in a completely different place....
      1. -3
        14 January 2024 06: 08
        Quote: Belisarius
        submarines received enough attention

        Sufficient attention was paid only during the war, when it became obvious that submarines were not “weapons for the poor” at all, but, on the contrary, the most effective weapons

        Quote: Belisarius
        Well, if they started building one aircraft carrier instead of Tirpitz, the opponents would symmetrically build 5

        Britain, which spent the whole war begging ships from the United States under Lend-Lease, would not have been able to do this, and the Americans were very busy in the Pacific Ocean
        1. +21
          14 January 2024 07: 05
          paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines,

          They would have smashed the flight deck during the bombing of Brest or Wilhelmshaven, and that’s all

          With such a numerical superiority of the enemy, German large ships - hippers, pickpockets, 4 lx lived for several years (and some until the very end) - and this happened only thanks to their high security

          In the photo - Allied soldiers guard the surrendered KRT Prince Eugen, May 13, 1945. Throughout the war, from bell to bell, he was constantly beaten, but alive and combat-ready. Even in recent months, how many problems caused the Soviet army during shelling of the Baltic coast
          1. -6
            14 January 2024 07: 15
            Quote: Santa Fe
            They would have smashed the flight deck during the bombing of Brest or Wilhelmshaven

            British aviation still needs to fly there

            Quote: Santa Fe
            With such a numerical superiority of the enemy, German large ships - hippers, pickpockets, 4 lx lived for several years

            This is only because there were no naval battles, as the admirals assumed, during WWII. Mostly they stood at the bases with a few exceptions. As soon as they crawled out of these bases, they were immediately attacked by kirdyk. Just a small example - "Graf Spee" in the battle of Motevideo
            1. +15
              14 January 2024 07: 37
              British aviation still needs to fly there

              During the stay of the Kriegsmarine heavy ships in Brest, the British Air Force “dumped” 1,2 kilotons of bombs onto the territory of the naval base

              Unable to bear this, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, together with Prince Eugen, rushed across the English Channel - to safer places, through all the minefields, in full view of all British aviation, there was nothing left to choose, it became impossible to stay in Brest

              Ordinary, weakly protected ships could not survive there
              Mostly they stood at the bases with a few exceptions.

              Fact number 1 - In terms of the number of sunk and damaged ships in European waters, large surface ships (Kr and LK) take first place, ahead of even the almighty aviation.

              And this fact somehow strongly disagrees with your opinion

              https://topwar.ru/100986-morskie-kreposti-v-agonii-boya.html
              1. -5
                14 January 2024 08: 01
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Unable to bear this, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, together with Prince Eugen, rushed across the English Channel

                The point here is not the fear of British raids, but the understanding that cruisers in the fight for Atlantic communications were much inferior to submarines and they would be more in demand to fight convoys heading to the USSR

                Quote: Santa Fe
                In terms of the number of sunk and damaged ships in European waters, large surface ships (Kr and LK) take first place, ahead of even the almighty aviation

                This is all because there were no serious battles at sea
                1. +8
                  14 January 2024 10: 14
                  it’s not a matter of fear of British raids, but of the understanding that cruisers in the fight for Atlantic communications were much inferior to submarines and they would be more in demand for

                  Your ideas are strange. There was no time to choose: it was more profitable to go there or there. Brest became a trap for 3 large Kriegsmarine units. They resorted to Brest as the nearest refuge after frolicking on communications and stirring up a British hornet's nest.

                  Brest is 150 km from England, ships began to be bombed day and night. The Germans decided to break through along the most dangerous, shortest route, under the nose of the British across the English Channel

                  If Scharnhorst and Eugen did not have serious constructive protection, they would have burned there in Brest during the raids
                  This is all because there were no serious battles at sea

                  Emnip 12 or 13 major battles involving heavy cruisers and battleships (in European waters)

                  What had to happen for it to become “serious”?
                  1. -3
                    14 January 2024 10: 27
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    Brest became a trap for 3 large Kriegsmarine units

                    At the beginning of 1942, Brest was not yet a trap. It was simply very impractical for the German command to keep surface ships there. Why keep them there, can you explain?

                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    If Scharnhorst and Eugen did not have serious constructive protection, they would have burned there in Brest during the raids

                    You probably forget that all the sites were covered by fighters
                    1. +5
                      14 January 2024 10: 54
                      Why keep them there, can you explain?

                      Because there was no way to take the ships away, all routes were blocked

                      They decided to break through the English Channel when there were no other options left. Standing further in Brest = guaranteed death
                      You probably forget that all the sites were covered by fighters

                      1,2 kilotons of bombs were dropped on the port and ships

                      All three large ships had battles
                    2. +3
                      15 January 2024 11: 23
                      Quote: Dutchman Michel
                      At the beginning of 1942, Brest was not yet a trap.

                      That's right, it was a training ground for British land and naval aviation. smile
                      In principle, everything became clear with Brest after Campbell’s crew torpedoed the Gneisenau right in the harbor on 06.04.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                      Then, on April 10.04.1941, 4, the Gneisenau, already in the dock, received XNUMX direct hits from bombs.
                      On July 24.07.1941, 3, the Scharnhorst, which left for testing at La Pallis, received 2 armor-piercing and XNUMX high-explosive bombs - and again went for repairs.
                      From December 1941, regular raids on Brest began in groups of hundreds of bombers.
                      In general, large pots in Brest were in constant repair.
                  2. +4
                    14 January 2024 19: 43
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    Your ideas are strange.

                    Yours is no less strange...
                    You are forgetting two points:
                    - with the entry of the United States into the war, raids into the Atlantic became a form of suicide;
                    - a new theater of operations has appeared in the North, where large ships are more needed.

                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    If Scharnhorst and Eugen did not have serious constructive protection, they would have burned there in Brest during the raids

                    What hellish nonsense... What does protection have to do with it?
                    1. 0
                      15 January 2024 20: 39
                      I support. The author would do well to remember that they actually finished off Gneisenau.
            2. 0
              15 January 2024 18: 44
              Well, the story of the first and last campaign of the Bismarck in May 1941 is quite reminiscent of a naval battle. But "Tirpitz" spent its life completely ingloriously. The Scharnhorst's brother, the pocket battleship Gneisenau, also did not win any special laurels.
          2. +3
            14 January 2024 18: 55
            Quote: Santa Fe
            In the photo - Allied soldiers guard the surrendered KRT Prince Eugen, May 13, 1945. Throughout the war, from bell to bell, he was constantly beaten, but alive and combat-ready.

            You've gone too far...
            April 41st - mine explosion, repairs for 12 days, then "Reinubung".
            July 41st - bomb hit, repairs for six months (you don’t have to look at the period, since in the conditions of Brest we had to sort through the entire SUAO)
            February '42 - hit by a torpedo from the Trident, repairs with modernization de facto took four months.
            I'll leave the Leipzig ram behind the scenes... :)
      2. +17
        14 January 2024 06: 39
        I read the article, I feel clearly not Ryabov Kirill, living language, creativity... Welcome back Oleg!! good
    2. +8
      14 January 2024 07: 27
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines, the outcome of the war at sea and, as a result, on land, would have been completely different.

      The outcome would have been the same.
      Even if instead of four battleships four large aircraft carriers had magically appeared, nothing would have changed globally, because the American shipbuilding flywheel would have spun up in any case and would still have been crushed by numbers.
      As for the submarines, the Germans, relying on cruising/raider warfare, made a fundamental mistake, because victory is forged in battles with the enemy navy, and not with the merchant fleet... But, to be honest, the lack of resources made any type of war initially unpromising for Germans. Did they understand this? I believe that many understood...
      1. +3
        14 January 2024 07: 47
        Quote: Doccor18
        Even if instead of four battleships four large aircraft carriers magically appeared, nothing would change globally

        Well why? At the initial stage of the war, a tandem of aircraft carriers and submarines could well have strangled England with a naval blockade. This means that there would be no American troops on its territory, which means there would be no devastating bombings of Germany and landings in France.

        Of course, the United States had enormous economic potential and would have built as many aircraft carriers as they needed, but at the initial stage.....
        1. +15
          14 January 2024 08: 49
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          At the initial stage of the war, a tandem of aircraft carriers and submarines could well have strangled England with a naval blockade

          We couldn't.
          The British fleet was many times stronger. In addition, ships take a long time to build, so the British would have learned about the laying of German aircraft carriers quite quickly, and therefore responded with their own similar program. Therefore, by the beginning of the war they could well have had a comparable number of similar ships. I don’t argue that having aircraft carriers, the Germans would have seriously complicated life for Britain, I don’t even rule out that the opening of a second front could have moved slightly to the right, but this would not have affected the final result in any way.
        2. +13
          14 January 2024 11: 28
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Well why? At the initial stage of the war, a tandem of aircraft carriers and submarines could well have strangled England with a naval blockade.

          Could not. You are now making the classic mistake of an alternativeist - your Germany is developing in a new way, and England is developing as in reality.
          If England saw that Germany was moving into naval aviation and submarines, then England would naturally increase its own production of aviation, aircraft and submarines. Yes, if by some miracle the Germans were given 1939 ocean-going submarines in 300, they would most likely crush England with a blockade. But if the Germans had built 1939 submarines by 300, then England would have had much more anti-submarine forces and assets than they had in real 1939.
          1. -3
            14 January 2024 11: 44
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            if the Germans had built 1939 submarines by 300, then England would have had much more anti-submarine forces and assets

            You forget that during WWI, there were 20 anti-submarine force personnel per German submariner. Thousands of ships, airships and aircraft were deployed against the submarine. I think that in the Second World War, a colossal amount of forces was involved in the fight against submarines, incommensurate with the number of submarines
            1. +8
              14 January 2024 13: 18
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              You forget that during WWI, there were 20 anti-submarine force personnel per German submariner.

              You forget that in WWII there were practically no methods for detecting submarines under water. And in WWII they were present. You forget that in WWII there was practically no aviation that could detect submarines during transitions and when charging batteries - but in WWII there was. And yes, you completely forget that the forces they created were sufficient for the Allies to destroy the underwater threat in WWII, despite the fact that a significant part of these forces were deployed against the Japanese
              1. -2
                14 January 2024 13: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You forget that in WWII there was practically no aviation that could detect submarines during transitions and when charging batteries

                There was little aviation. There were also few airships. However, thousands of warships and civilian vessels, including fishing vessels, were sent to hunt for the submarines.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You completely forget that the forces they created were enough for the Allies to destroy the underwater threat in WWII

                The forces created before the war were simply not enough (remember the 50 American destroyers). But a thousand submarine hunters, hundreds of destroyers and several dozen escort aircraft carriers built by the Americans were enough to defeat the submarine. And we must not forget that since 1942 Germany began to slowly deflate and could not withstand the constantly increasing forces of the Allies
                1. +3
                  14 January 2024 14: 58
                  Quote: Dutchman Michel
                  The forces created before the war were simply not enough (remember the 50 American destroyers). And a thousand submarine hunters were enough to defeat submarines

                  Generally speaking, against approximately 1500 submarines from Germany, Italy and Japan, the United States and England built something like 2600 ships capable of fighting them, from a destroyer to a corvette. But we must understand that the same destroyers were used not only for anti-aircraft defense
                  Quote: Dutchman Michel
                  And we must not forget that Germany began to slowly deflate since 1942

                  Why would that be? :)))) In fact, German industry achieved its highest results in 1944.
                  1. -3
                    14 January 2024 15: 32
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    German industry achieved its highest results in 1944.

                    Moving towards the “best results”, as you call them, a card system was introduced in Germany, the working day was increased to 10-12 hours, and income tax was increased. In addition, defeat at Stalingrad and North Africa, and then the landing in Normandy. You've probably read the memoirs of Speer, Raeder and Dönitz, which unanimously say that there was a chronic shortage of fuel and metals
                    1. +6
                      14 January 2024 16: 05
                      Quote: Dutchman Michel
                      Moving towards the “best results”, as you call them, a card system was introduced in Germany, the working day was increased to 10-12 hours, and income tax was increased.

                      It doesn't matter at all - we're not interested in it. We are interested in the supply of weapons to the fleet, and here everything was very good.
                      1. -3
                        14 January 2024 16: 14
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We are interested in the supply of weapons to the fleet, and here everything was very good

                        I have already mentioned the memoirs of Speer, Raeder and Dönitz. How representatives of the armed forces fought for the allocation of raw materials. On the contrary, everything was bad. It was precisely because of the lack of resources that they could not complete the construction of their two aircraft carriers
                      2. +2
                        14 January 2024 17: 07
                        Quote: Dutchman Michel
                        I have already mentioned the memoirs of Speer, Raeder and Dönitz.

                        I read them much more carefully than you.
                        Quote: Dutchman Michel
                        How representatives of the armed forces fought for the allocation of raw materials

                        What was absolutely at all times in absolutely all aircraft
                        Quote: Dutchman Michel
                        On the contrary, everything was bad

                        There is fact - German military production grew between 1939 and 1944.
                      3. -2
                        14 January 2024 17: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I read them much more carefully than you

                        I understood this from your comments laughing
                      4. +2
                        14 January 2024 17: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There is a fact - military production in Germany grew in the period from 1939 to 1944.
                2. +2
                  15 January 2024 11: 37
                  Quote: Dutchman Michel
                  However, thousands of warships and civilian vessels, including fishing vessels, were sent to hunt for the submarines.

                  On September 3.9.1939, 56, the fleet of England and its dominions, in addition to two units of the "Basset" type, included 393 patrol and trawling trawlers (displacement from 593 to 10,5 tons, speed 12 - 102 knots, armament - one or two 40- mm/76 or 40 mm/XNUMX guns).

                  With the outbreak of hostilities, the Admiralty launched a program of mass construction of trawlers according to the slightly modified "Basset" project: in 1939-1945. 192 units of the "Tree", "Dance", "Shakespearian" and "Isles" types entered service. In addition to the heirs of "Basset", in 1941-1944. The fleet was replenished with several more types of trawlers. Most of them were reworkings of designs for civilian vessels (Hills, Round Table, Fish and Military types) and World War I admiralty trawlers (Castle type). A small number of trawlers were ordered abroad (Professor type). In addition to specialized ships, since the beginning of the war the Admiralty requisitioned from private owners about 1300 trawlers, 200 whaling ships and about 550 drifters.
                  © A.V. Dashyan. Ships of the Second World War. British Navy. Part 2.
                  Moreover, during mobilization, the “PLO trawlers” received not only guns and depth charges, but also GAS.
              2. +1
                14 January 2024 23: 30
                I will also add that even in WWII, when British blimps began to regularly accompany convoys, German submarines turned sour. Because the blimp detects the submarine, destroyers come running at the signal from the airship, and the boat is forced to sit under water until the convoy passes.
              3. 0
                15 January 2024 18: 47
                By the way, the number of ships and tonnage sent by German submariners to the bottom during WWII is very impressive. In WWII, successes were more modest.
            2. +2
              15 January 2024 11: 34
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              I think that in the Second World War, a colossal amount of forces was involved in the fight against submarines, incommensurate with the number of submarines

              On the other hand, given the larger number of submarines, anti-aircraft forces will more often detect and hit targets more often. So in the first months, alternative PLOs and submarines will pretty much thin out each other - and then a competition of economies will begin: the Reich and the occupied countries against “Big Britain” and the USA. Taking into account the fact that a “seven” is worth as much as three “flowers” ​​- the ending is a bit predictable ©.
      2. +11
        14 January 2024 09: 01
        Quote: Doccor18
        Even if instead of four battleships four large aircraft carriers magically appeared

        There's another matter here. When your interlocutor says the word "aircraft carrier", the Nimitz AVA appears in his mind's eye. Or at least Nagumo's fleet. While the real Zeppelin was an English-type aircraft carrier. A small air group, the task is to escort linear forces, reconnaissance, finishing.

        So here it is. The Germans did not have English line forces. They simply did not need 4 such aircraft carriers. Moreover, the creation of American-style naval aviation in the Reich was impossible - not while Goering was alive. The Americans did not have aviation as a branch of the military, but the Germans did - this alone put an end to aircraft carriers.
        1. +2
          14 January 2024 09: 49
          I absolutely agree with you hi
        2. 0
          14 January 2024 09: 58
          Quote: Negro
          Moreover, the creation of American-style naval aviation in the Reich was impossible - not while Goering was alive

          Nevertheless, they laid down two aircraft carriers. And they didn’t build it only because hard times came with resources. And Goering...
          1. +4
            14 January 2024 11: 30
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Nevertheless, they laid down two aircraft carriers.

            Neither 2, nor 4, nor 6 such ABs could challenge England’s supremacy at sea for the reasons stated above
            1. 0
              14 January 2024 11: 50
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Neither 2, nor 4, nor 6 such ABs could challenge England’s supremacy at sea for the reasons stated above

              Yes, the Germans did not need any supremacy at sea. The Mahan Doctrine had long since been covered with dust. Choke Britain with a naval blockade. That was their goal! And for this there are several aircraft carriers and a flock of submarines. And no cruisers with submarines
              1. +3
                14 January 2024 13: 19
                Quote: Dutchman Michel
                Yes, the Germans did not need any supremacy at sea

                Then say goodbye to the aircraft carriers, they would not last long at sea and would not be able to significantly help the submarine
                1. -5
                  14 January 2024 13: 52
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Then say goodbye to aircraft carriers, they would not last long at sea

                  And why is that? And who would touch them in the ocean? Their goal is to attack convoys
                  1. +7
                    14 January 2024 14: 59
                    Quote: Dutchman Michel
                    And why is that? And who would touch them in the ocean?

                    KVMF. I would touch it carefully :))))
                    “And I have such a tender attitude towards you, I would hug you and hold you by the neck until you stop kicking your legs...” (c)
                  2. +3
                    14 January 2024 23: 32
                    An unescorted aircraft carrier in the ocean in WWII is a big, tasty target for any cruiser or flock of destroyers. They just need to come from the direction of the wind...
                    1. +1
                      15 January 2024 10: 55
                      Quote: Destroyermen
                      Aircraft carrier without escort in the ocean in WWII

                      What kind of strange fantasies are these? Escorts walked as part of the Korovan escort
                      1. +1
                        15 January 2024 11: 20
                        I’m talking about the German ones) about which it was stated above that they will run around the Atlantic without an escort.
                      2. +1
                        15 January 2024 11: 47
                        Oh, sorry, I thought it was you...
          2. +2
            15 January 2024 11: 40
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            And Goering...

            It’s just that “fat Herman” already had a pretty good idea in 1940 of what admirals could do with aviation. And he did not want to give his pilots into the hands of amateurs who were capable, for example, of giving the order for reconnaissance aircraft to take off in zero visibility at the airfield, and in response to an answer about the impossibility - threatening a tribunal.
            1. 0
              15 January 2024 12: 23
              Quote: Alexey RA
              give their pilots into the hands of amateurs who are capable, for example, of giving orders

              Of their pilots. On the other hand, we know what land aviators do with naval aviation. Using historical and modern examples.
              1. +2
                15 January 2024 12: 36
                Quote: Negro
                Their pilots.

                There weren't any others. All the same, naval aviation would have to be prepared from the backlogs - because the Navy had neither the time, nor the resources, nor the base to prepare from scratch.
                Quote: Negro
                On the other hand, we know what land aviators do with naval aviation.

                The sea ones are no better. The suicide strike of the 1st Mtap near Dvinsk was planned by the navy.

                The main problem with naval aviation of non-aircraft carrier powers is that it is either naval or aviation.
                That is, either she is commanded black bootswho don’t know, don’t understand, and don’t want to learn aviation, but really want to command it. As a result, the Navy MA turns into the last pig, the crews are ready to work on naval targets, but the budget for equipment and training is based on a residual principle. And the command regularly sets unrealistic goals and is very offended when this is pointed out to them.
                Or it is commanded by aviators, for whom the main customer is the ground forces and air defense, and the fleet is perceived on a residual basis. Accordingly, all tactics for training the Air Force and naval aviation are geared towards standard tasks: support for the army, air defense, strikes against distant ground targets. In this case, the materiel is alive, the crews have flying time, the command is professional, but the Air Force MA is not suitable for working against naval targets at all.

                Ideally, the MA should be part of the Navy, but it should be commanded by an air admiral who is part of the system, and not a black sheep in the environment black boots. But it takes a very long time to train such personnel.
                1. -1
                  15 January 2024 22: 24
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  But it takes a very long time to train such personnel.

                  Actually, the essence of the argument was that Goering personally was much more influential than the conventional Arnold. Aviation independent of it simply could not have appeared.

                  And what kind of aviation is there? Zeppelin carried one regiment of aircraft with Soviet money. What are we talking about anyway?
      3. +4
        14 January 2024 12: 24
        ...the lack of resources made any type of war initially unpromising for the Germans. Did they understand this? I believe that many understood...


        It seems that Hjalmar Schacht understood this back in 1941.
        But there were few like him.
        The overwhelming majority of Germans were under the spell of Hitler's “undoubted successes” for a very long time.
        1. -1
          14 January 2024 14: 18
          Quote from: dump22
          It seems that Hjalmar Schacht understood this back in 1941.

          Shakht jumped off back in January '39.
          1. +4
            14 January 2024 15: 30
            In 1939 he only resigned as president of the Reichsbank.
            But he remained as before as Reich Minister.
            But in reality he “jumped off” (was sent into retirement) only at the beginning of 1942 (after the United States entered the war), writing a rather harsh letter to Hitler personally.

            “I am worse than everyone who is now sitting in the dock, because I knew the value of them all and still was with them...”
            (c) Ya. Shakht’s speech at the Nuremberg trials
      4. +2
        14 January 2024 12: 35
        for victory is forged in battles with the enemy navy, and not with the merchant fleet

        War is supply, supply, and possibly battle. There, World War 2 in the Pacific Ocean, when American submarines knocked out the entire Japanese transport fleet, and the Japanese did not focus on attacks on American transports. There is no point in a large ship when it is at the base without fuel and with half the ammo capacity.
        1. +4
          14 January 2024 15: 43
          Quote: Not the fighter
          In the same place, World War 2 in the Pacific, when American submarines knocked out the entire Japanese transport fleet

          Would they be able to do this if the Japanese fleet dominated the seas?
          The Americans methodically gained supremacy at sea, sinking one Japanese aircraft carrier after another... That is why in the Pacific Ocean two hundred American submarines succeeded in what two thousand German submarines failed in the Atlantic...
          Of course, it is necessary to strike at the enemy’s supplies, but betting only on this and/or on cruising war, anyone will inevitably fail. The Germans showed this in all its glory: excellent raiders and thousands of submarines with professional crews were never able to complete their task. Thousands of simple transport ships, anti-submarine forces and supremacy at sea decided everything in their favor...
    3. +2
      14 January 2024 07: 59
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines

      No matter how much you feed the wolf, the king has plenty.
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Sufficient attention was paid only during the war, when it became obvious that submarines were not “weapons for the poor” at all, but, on the contrary, the most effective weapons

      The Germans were limited by the naval treaty of 35. Within its boundaries, they did what they could, including on submarines. In 39, they ceased to be interested in this agreement - then they were able to repeat themselves in the submarine part (but not the LC) of the last war. With the same result.
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      outcome of the war at sea

      No one had in mind a war at sea with Great Britain. Germany in the 30s was one of the minor naval powers, its size being France.
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Britain, which spent the entire war begging for ships from the United States under Lend-Lease, would not have been able to do this,

      You are not fully aware of the circumstances of the 30s. Britain remained the strongest naval power in the world until the second half of WWII.
      1. -1
        14 January 2024 08: 09
        Quote: Negro
        The Germans were limited by the naval treaty of 35

        The naval treaty allowed the Germans to build submarines as long as they needed, the main thing was to notify the mistress of the seas about this. The then German leadership was captivated by the illusion that submarines were “weapons of the poor”, so they did not pay much attention to them

        Quote: Negro
        Nobody meant war at sea with Great Britain

        After all, Britain, as in WWI, was Germany’s main adversary, but the Germans wanted to defeat it not through naval battles, but through a naval blockade. This is exactly why the LC and KR were built, but unlike the submarines, they did not live up to expectations

        Quote: Negro
        Britain remained the strongest naval power

        After USA
        1. +1
          14 January 2024 09: 45
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          The maritime treaty allowed the Germans to build submarines as long as they needed

          And specifically, he allowed the construction of 24 thousand tons of submarine tonnage without fencing. This is about 30 sevens. In reality, the Germans almost doubled this limit even before the war. So you underestimate them. Another thing is that against the background of >1000 submarines of military construction this looks like a trifle. But who knew?
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          so they didn't pay much attention to them

          You will be very surprised, but in WWII they already walked this road and knew where it led. Nevertheless, they built half a million tons of sevens alone. This is many times more than their battleship tonnage.
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          the Germans wanted to defeat it not through naval battles, but through a naval blockade

          The Germans did not defeat Britain with a naval blockade. But Britain blocked the entirety of continental Europe.
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Britain, as in WWI, was Germany’s main enemy

          You are so smart now, but Hitler had completely different ideas. It was impossible to win a war with Britain, he knew this from his own experience.
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          This is exactly why the LC and KR were built, but unlike the submarines, they did not live up to expectations

          In peacetime, these were purely political actions that had no military meaning. And then throwing the trapped animal.
          The British dealt with the threat of German submarines themselves, even before the Americans entered the war.
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          After USA

          Until the commissioning of American war and pre-war ships.
          1. 0
            14 January 2024 10: 07
            Quote: Negro
            in WWII they already walked this road and knew where it led

            Yes, they went this way in WWI, but after the war there was a deep conviction that submarines, as a combat unit, were defeated by anti-submarine forces

            Quote: Negro
            The Germans did not defeat Britain with a naval blockade

            They didn’t win only because it wasn’t exactly a war of battles. It was a war of resources and economies. Here American Lend-Lease went around all the warring countries

            Quote: Negro
            The British dealt with the threat of German submarines themselves

            They couldn't do it themselves. Only colossal aid from the USA turned the tables

            Quote: Negro
            In peacetime, these were purely political actions that had no military meaning

            I agree with that
            1. +3
              14 January 2024 10: 55
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              there was a deep conviction that submarines, as a combat unit, were defeated by anti-submarine forces

              And they didn’t lie.
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              They didn’t win only because it wasn’t exactly a war of battles. It was a war of resources and economies

              The submarine is just about the economy, and not about battles.
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              They couldn't cope on their own

              We did it. Familiarize yourself with the concept of "Happy Times." Especially when they are over.
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              I agree with that

              A disclaimer needs to be made. In the 30s, Hitler did not consider suicide as his main prospect, so the fact that the Kriegsmarine building program made Germany only the 6th strongest naval power in the world at the beginning of the war does not mean that it was useless. The longest journey begins with the first step.
          2. +3
            14 January 2024 11: 23
            Quote: Negro
            The British dealt with the threat of German submarines themselves, even before the Americans entered the war.

            Very funny. Today you are simply a treasure trove of historical discoveries :))))
          3. +1
            15 January 2024 11: 48
            Quote: Negro
            The British dealt with the threat of German submarines themselves, even before the Americans entered the war.

            Hmm... uv. Exeter wrote on VIF2-NE that the peak of German activity in communications was 1942, when in one quarter the Germans even managed to reduce the trade tonnage of limes by several percent.
            And it’s not for me to tell you how neutral the United States was before entering the war. Who handed over the first Archer-type AVE for the RN in November 1941? wink
            1. -1
              15 January 2024 12: 21
              Quote: Alexey RA
              The peak of German activity in communications was 1942, when in one of the quarters the Germans even managed to reduce the trade tonnage of limes by several percent

              Is it Laimi? I remember the second happy times were the Caribbean Sea and the coastal routes of an almost neutral country there.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Who handed over the first Archer-type AVE for the RN in November 1941?

              In November. The thesis was that in 41 no genocide of British maritime trade had yet emerged, even before the Liberty assembly line.
              1. 0
                15 January 2024 15: 21
                Quote: Negro
                The thesis was that in 41 no genocide of British maritime trade had yet emerged, even before the Liberty assembly line.

                So it’s not because the British managed it
                Quote: Negro
                The British dealt with the threat of German submarines themselves, even before the Americans entered the war.
                , but because the Germans then did not have enough strength to genocide of British maritime trade.
                The key year was 1942, when the Limes and the Yankees jointly tried to stop the chaos in the Atlantic, which was interfering with both the supply of the Island Empire and the upcoming Torch. And the threat of German submarines was removed only in 1943, when coastal aviation finally closed the black hole in the middle of the KON routes, and the escort aircraft drove the submarines around the KON underwater, preventing the submarines from operating on the surface (overtaking the KON or approaching in the bow sectors ).
                1. +1
                  15 January 2024 20: 20
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  So it’s not because the British managed it

                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  but because the Germans did not have enough strength then

                  Dialectics, however.
        2. 0
          14 January 2024 11: 28
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          but the Germans wanted to defeat it not through naval battles, but through a naval blockade
          No, just a general battle. The German sailors even had a toast: “To THAT day!” - the day of the battle between the High Seas Fleet and the Grandfleet.
          1. +4
            14 January 2024 11: 46
            Quote: bk0010
            The German sailors even had a toast: “To THAT day!”

            You're probably confusing this toast with WWI
            1. +2
              14 January 2024 11: 59
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              You're probably confusing this toast with WWI
              Exactly.
    4. +5
      14 January 2024 12: 30
      Oleg hi I haven’t seen your articles on the site for a long time! I’m glad to read them again! I hope that this is not a “one-time promotion” and that you are back on topvar for good!!! hi good
      1. +3
        14 January 2024 12: 36
        Thank you! hi

        12 years with topvar, I write articles as soon as I have time
    5. +2
      14 January 2024 12: 31
      Simultaneously build a land army and a navy “and not worse!!!” very expensive.
      The example of the First World War showed that either it is necessary to build a fleet capable of competing with the enemy on an equal footing, or not to build it at all, but to take some other, alternative route. They invested so much in Bismarck that it would be enough to create another tank army. Let me remind you that in 1941 the Germans had four tank armies.
      1. +3
        14 January 2024 16: 07
        Quote: Not the fighter
        So much was invested in Bismarck that it would be enough to create another tank army

        Means, but not opportunities... Only by 1944 did the German tank industry show at least some reasonable (for WWII) productivity, but it was too late...
        In 1939, only 157 Panzer IIIs were built...
    6. -1
      14 January 2024 19: 06
      Where would the Germans use an aircraft carrier and attack convoys?
      1. 0
        15 January 2024 02: 55
        Quote: ss29
        Where would the Germans use an aircraft carrier and attack convoys?

        In the Gobi Desert wink
    7. 0
      15 January 2024 04: 27
      Submarines easily sank these heavyweights!! While these massive creatures were disappearing, aircraft usually finished them off!!
      1. 0
        April 12 2024 23: 29
        It’s not easy, but our submarine (commander Lunin) damaged the German battleship Tirpitz, which the British feared like fire!
    8. +2
      15 January 2024 11: 11
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines

      Then in this case the RN would pay more attention to its AB and ASW ships. And the situation of 1943 in the Atlantic for the Germans could have begun back in 1940.
      The main mistake of the alternativeist: one country is alternative, the rest stupidly follow the rails of the Republic of Ingushetia (Heffalump looks at the sky).
    9. 0
      18 January 2024 21: 35
      They measured out fuel almost by the glass, what other fleet is there that eats it even while in port.
      1. 0
        April 12 2024 23: 30
        Learn the history of World War II at sea.
        1. 0
          April 13 2024 07: 02
          Learn the history of World War II at sea.
          - Well, then study the economic side of the history of the Second World War. This is much more interesting.
    10. +1
      19 January 2024 20: 55
      Dutchman Michel
      (Michel)
      If the Germans had instead built heavy cruisers and battleships... If we were friends with the Soviet Union, there would be a different world order now. But History does not have a subjunctive mood.
      1. 0
        20 January 2024 03: 38
        Quote: TANKISTONE
        If we were friends with the Soviet Union, there would be a different world order now

        So they were friends until 1941, and then something went wrong...
        1. 0
          20 January 2024 12: 12
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          So they were friends until 1941, and then something went wrong...

          We were friends until December 18, 1940, when Directive 21 was signed.
          1. 0
            20 January 2024 13: 32
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            until December 18, 1940, when Directive 21 was signed.

            There, before that, Molotov had an unsuccessful trip to Berlin. After these negotiations, the Fuhrer re-read a book from 1924 and realized that something was going wrong.
      2. -1
        20 January 2024 13: 29
        Quote: TANKISTONE
        If we were friends with the Soviet Union, there would be a different world order now

        Plus or minus the same, only before 1991. Hitler would have been damned, if not strangers, but the USSR would have at least been badly crushed - so Brest-Litovsk would still seem like a good option.
    11. 0
      April 12 2024 23: 26
      There are doubts that the Germans did not pay attention to submarines during the Second World War. In those days, the German submarine fleet was the best and after its end the allies (USSR, USA, England) took away their submarines, drawings and technologies for their production. The USSR actively used German developments and developed them to the perfection of our days, the Yasen nuclear submarine.
  2. +6
    14 January 2024 05: 01
    “And I recognize a sweetheart by his gait...”, of course, Comrade Kaptsov and of course battleships! It's been a while since it happened. By the way, something similar was written, only about the fact that the displacement was “eaten” by electronics on modern ships
    1. +2
      14 January 2024 05: 51
      Yes - yes, how they laughed at Kaptsov, ha ha, the air defense systems will shoot down and deflect everything.
      Shot down and rejected.
    2. +4
      14 January 2024 06: 16
      Alexey, it’s nice that you remember

      Good day to you too! hi
  3. +6
    14 January 2024 05: 18
    Interesting article, thanks to the author. As for his favorite idea about increasing the security of ships, as Comrade Gandhi used to say, “First they don’t notice you, then they laugh at you, then they fight with you. And then you win.”
    I don’t know about battleships, but the lack of protection on modern ships already looks indecent, especially considering the dawn of the era of UAVs of all types. Something really needs to be done about this.
    1. +9
      14 January 2024 07: 35
      Quote: Belisarius
      the lack of protection on modern ships already looks indecent, especially considering the dawning era of UAVs of all types. Something really needs to be done about this.

      What are you going to do here? Only active methods of defense: air defense/missile defense, electronic warfare, traps, lasers... It is unlikely that the body will be strengthened/heightened/complicated, because there is no particular point. The battleships of the 20th century have already proven everything; in a dispute between aerial bombs and armor, the first always wins...
  4. +1
    14 January 2024 05: 46
    They went even further in the Soviet Union, where after the war a series of 36-ton Project 500 cruisers (Stalingrad) was laid down.

    So much attention is paid to the description of the Scharnhorst, and not a word about its Soviet opponent - the Project 69 heavy cruiser Kronstadt (standard displacement of the redesigned version is 36 tons, two units were laid down in 240).
    1. -1
      14 January 2024 08: 50
      Quote: Comrade
      not a word about his Soviet opponent - the Project 69 heavy cruiser "Kronstadt"

      Well, if you please.

      In the post-war years, an informal consensus developed that the most ridiculous battleships of WWII were the American Alaskans. American political instructors completely eliminated them from the weakest battleships, appointed them as the strongest cruisers, and tried to quickly forget them.

      The Soviet freaks of Project 69 were certainly worse than the Alaskas, and would easily have taken the crown of the most wretched design of the Capital Ships era from the latter. Even at the project level, without taking into account an even sadder fact: the expression “they are crazy” was suitable for the American Navy of that era, but in relation to the USSR of the 30s it looks like too much of a cruel joke. For better or for worse, the Soviet alternative to common sense military construction soon after their laying collided with a cruel and cold reality, as a result of which these disabled people were aborted in the early stages. Somehow there was no time for battleships.
      1. +4
        14 January 2024 11: 22
        Quote: Negro
        The Soviet freaks of Project 69 were certainly worse than Alaska

        Exactly the opposite - almost multiple times better in everything except air defense
        1. -4
          14 January 2024 13: 53
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          almost multiple times better in everything

          It is multiple times better in one thing: Kronstadt’s PTZ is twice as thick. Otherwise, this is a suicide battleship, taking the enemy with a ram.
          A strong opponent for him is our old friend Goeben. Soviet dreamers who want to bring him together with the Congo and even Hood are secret (not so secret) enemies of the working people.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Very funny. Today you are simply a treasure trove of historical discoveries :)))

          Have you already forgotten the course of WWII in the Atlantic? Yeah...

          Sevastopol did not participate in WWII at sea, so it was unlikely to be of interest to you. So just take into account that after the German successes in 40, the British fine-tuned the convoy system and their trade tonnage never decreased. With the connection of the Americans, it began to grow.
          1. +3
            14 January 2024 16: 01
            Quote: Negro
            Otherwise, this is a suicide battleship, taking the enemy with a ram.

            Well, you yourself said about PTZ. Main caliber? Better. Booking? Better, both vertical and horizontal, both in terms of thickness and area. Civil Code protection? Approximately equivalent - Americans have a slightly thicker forehead, but we have stronger barbettes (which is kind of more important). In general, the mass of armor for Project 69 is a little 2,6 times greater than Alaska. The speed is approximately the same, Alaska’s fuel reserve is not 3150 but 3600, so here it will be better.
            Quote: Negro
            A strong opponent for him is our old friend Goeben

            And ShiG, and Alaska, and with Dunkirk could completely fight
            Quote: Negro
            Soviet dreamers who want to bring him to the Congo

            They were absolutely logical, because Congo for Kronstadt’s guns was much more cardboard than Kronstadt for Congo. Repulse and Rinaun also don’t look noticeably better, and after the transfer of Project 69 to German 380 mm, they don’t look that way at all.
            Quote: Negro
            So just take into account that after the German successes in 40, the British fine-tuned the convoy system, and their trade tonnage no longer decreased

            Just take into account that you have chosen a completely unsuitable indicator.
            Firstly, the reduction in losses of British tonnage was seriously influenced by the reduction in losses from German aviation and NK - the former were deployed against the USSR, and the latter were slightly raped by the British.
            Secondly, in 1941, the pendulum really swung in the opposite direction - but only due to the fact that the British took a number of important measures, and the Germans had not yet had time to launch the massive construction of submarines and had not yet developed new countermeasures (interaction with aviation and wolf packs) + diversion of submarines to other areas, including the Baltic and Mediterranean.
            Thirdly, England's trade tonnage did not fall only due to Lend-Lease supplies from the United States. Therefore, to say that England has coped with something there...
            1. -5
              14 January 2024 20: 42
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Main caliber? Better.

              B-50? This is a nightmare in itself, even without taking everything else into account. 12-inch Kirov.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Better, both vertical and horizontal, both in terms of thickness and area

              Only in part of the area. The thickness is equally unsuitable for combat with LC and excessive for combat with SRT. Alaska’s horizontal defense was the only thing that was not bad, and even resembled a battleship.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Civil Code protection?

              Not that important.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              In general, the mass of armor for Project 69 is a little 2,6 times more than Alaska

              Therefore, the 69th project is even more ridiculous. There is too much too thick armor for the sole purpose of protecting too large vehicles that are needed only to carry this armor.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The speed is approximately the same

              On cars from Iowa, made in Kharkov.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And ShiG, and Alaska, and with Dunkirk could completely fight

              Regarding Alaska, first fight in Kronstadt with the four Essexes of its operational formation. Regarding ShiG, it’s a great idea: it has almost normal battleship armor and relatively weak guns, and you just don’t have the armor to make it easier for them to penetrate you, but you also don’t have a battleship main battery, you don’t threaten them in any way. With Dunkirk, especially Strasbourg, it's even worse.

              Oh, yes, I remember. You will shoot landmines.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              after the transfer of Project 69 to German 380 mm - this is generally the case.

              69And it’s no longer so completely absurd, at least in battleship caliber. The Soviet government, with the help of German friends, managed to make Repalz 20 years after the British became convinced of the futility of this idea.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Congo for Kronstadt's guns was much more cardboard than Kronstadt for Congo.

              At pistol range the crystal hammers are the same, at 14" distance it is definitely more dangerous.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You chose a completely unsuitable indicator.

              We need to look for objective indicators, and not rely on whining in memoirs.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Secondly, in 1941 the pendulum really swung in the opposite direction - but only due to the fact that the British took a number of important measures, and the Germans had not yet had time to launch the massive construction of submarines and had not yet developed new countermeasures

              The pendulum has swung back. This fact was recorded. And then let's do without a typical alternativeist mistake.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Thirdly, England’s trade tonnage did not fall only due to US Lend-Lease supplies

              Well, this is already impudent. You know very well that LL in 41 did not affect English trade tonnage - the ships were only ordered. They put their paws on the French junk, the Dutch ones, the dominions worked, and they themselves drank not only Armenian cognac. One way or another, the tonnage only grew.
              1. +1
                14 January 2024 23: 12
                Quote: Negro
                B-50? This is a nightmare in itself, even without taking everything else into account. 12-inch Kirov.

                Why don’t you like Kirov’s guns? Great guns, that's it
                Quote: Negro
                Only in part of the area. The thickness is equally unsuitable for combat with LC and excessive for combat with SRT. Alaska’s horizontal defense was the only thing that was not bad, and even resembled a battleship.

                It was very local in Alaska, in contrast to the solid 90 mm Krona deck. And so - we’re comparing Krona and Alaska, right? The armor protected both of them well from 305 mm... only in Alaska there was sadly little of it
                Quote: Negro
                Regarding Alaska, first fight in Kronstadt with the four Essexes of its operational formation.

                Excuses rolled out :)))))
                Quote: Negro
                Regarding ShiG, it’s a great idea: it has almost normal battleship armor and relatively weak guns, but you just don’t have armor

                Just against 283 mm - it really is.
                Quote: Negro
                Oh, yes, I remember. You will shoot landmines.

                just like the Germans, only our landmines are much more serious.
                Quote: Negro
                At pistol range the crystal hammers are the same, at 14" distance it is definitely more dangerous.

                What is pistol range for you? :))))) At 70-90 cab 203 mm, the group of the first series for Krona guns does not present any difficulty at all.
                Quote: Negro
                The pendulum swung in the opposite direction. This fact was recorded. And then let's do without the typical mistake of an alternative specialist.

                So make do. The Germans changed tactics, and the pendulum swung in the opposite direction - this time against the British and Americans. "Second happy time."
                Quote: Negro
                Well, this is already impudent. You know very well that LL in 41 did not affect English trade tonnage

                Who's talking about 1941?
                1. -1
                  14 January 2024 23: 39
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Why don’t you like Kirov’s guns?

                  What's not to like about guns with absurdly enhanced ballistics? You can't say right away...
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The armor protected both of them well from 305 mm... only in Alaska there was sadly little of it

                  In your magical world, a 22cm belt protects well from 12". Again, Sevastopol had an effect. However, the conversation is greatly simplified by the fact that Alaska did not have a single potential enemy with such a caliber. Kroni had 28 centimeters - which is not without reason They expected to penetrate much thicker armor.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Excuses rolled out

                  It's like a fact. Alaska, for all its features, was an AUS escort ship, and not a “leader of cruisers.”
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Just against 283 mm - very much so

                  Yes, I read about these amazing ideas.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  just like the Germans

                  Did the Germans fire land mines at battleships? I don't remember.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  What is pistol range for you? :))))) At 70-90 cab 203 mm

                  Firing distances at which vertical armor is hit at a slight angle.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  "Second happy time."

                  The cheating continues. King and Knox provided them with a second happy time. There was nothing left to catch with the British.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Who's talking about 1941?

                  Because in 42 the Americans appeared with their special circumstances. Including "let's just build more ships than they can sink."
                  1. 0
                    15 January 2024 11: 38
                    Quote: Negro
                    What's not to like about guns with absurdly enhanced ballistics?

                    I don’t like them, but what does this have to do with the 180-mm Kirov? :)))) They weren’t even close to being overpowered, why repeat the fantasies of Shirokorad and others like them?
                    The initial speed of 920 m/sec was provided by a high-combat charge, weighing 37,5 kg, but besides it there was a combat charge (weight -30 kg, accelerated a 97,5 kg projectile to a speed of 800 m/sec), a low-combat charge (28 kg, 720 m/s) and reduced (18 kg, 600 m/s). The reinforced-combat charge provided a maximum firing range of 203 kbt, and being the main combat charge, “threw” a 180-mm cannon shell at 156 kbt, which was more than enough for any naval battle.
                    At the same time, on a reinforced combat charge, the pressure in the barrel of a 180 mm gun was equal to 203 mm/60 model SkL/60 Mod.C 34 - 3200 kgf/cm2. At the same time, the survivability of the German barrel (according to various sources) ranged from 500 to 510 shots.
                    According to the “Instructions for determining the wear of channels of 180/57 naval artillery guns” of 1940 (RGAVMF Fund R-891, No. 1294, op.5 d.2150), “the gun was to be replaced after 90% wear - 100% wear was 320 intensive combat shots V=920m/s or 640 for combat charge (800 m/s).”
                    These data correlate much better with the survivability indicators of the German 203-mm gun than the fantasy that with equal pressure inside the barrel (3 kg/sq. cm), the Soviet 200-mm had a survivability of only 180 shots versus 70-500 for the German one.
                    Quote: Negro
                    In your magical world, a 22cm belt protects well from 12".

                    Oh? Kron's protection was just created against 283 mm. Okay, according to you, all Soviet engineers are worthless. What about the French and their 225 mm Dunkirk belt?
                    Quote: Negro
                    It's like a fact.

                    this is an excuse, because you wrote specifically about the comparison of Alaska and Krona
                    Quote: Negro
                    The Soviet freaks of Project 69 were certainly worse than the Alaskas, and would easily have taken the crown of the most wretched design of the Capital Ships era from the latter.

                    And then suddenly it turns out that 4 Essexes must be included in the design of Alaska :))))
                    Quote: Negro
                    Did the Germans fire land mines at battleships? I don't remember.

                    As far as one can judge, they were used in some quantities in the battle with Rinaun and Duke.
                    Quote: Negro
                    The cheating continues. King and Knox provided them with a second happy time. There was nothing left to catch with the British.

                    yes, it continues.
                    As a result of the actions of the British, the Germans were forced to move the submarine patrol areas away from England and into the ocean. At the same time, they naturally had problems with target designation, and with the number of submarines that they could bring there. This reduced British losses.
                    However, then the pendulum was ready to swing back - the Germans mastered aerial reconnaissance and wolf packs and the production of submarines increased, but... the Americans appeared :)))) And it was more effective to concentrate on them
                    The British themselves never believed that in 1941 they were able to achieve a turning point in the submarine war
                    1. 0
                      15 January 2024 22: 17
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Why repeat the fantasies of Shirokorad and others like them?

                      Cough cough. Because I don't like the word "Bolshevik".
                      Readers interested in the history of the Russian fleet were left with a completely unsightly picture, which, the saddest thing, is very easy to believe... That the pursuit of “faster, higher, stronger,” so characteristic of the 30s of the last century, is for the umpteenth time resulted in complete fraud and fraud. And the sailors received completely unusable weapons.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      the pressure in the barrel bore of the 180 mm gun was equal to 203 mm/60 model SkL/60 Mod.C 34 - 3200 kgf/cm2

                      Yes, last time I appreciated your idea of ​​​​evaluating a Soviet weapon through the characteristics of a German one.
                      She did not convince me, as in a number of other cases.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      But what about the French and their 225 mm Dunkirk belt?

                      Firstly, the Germans did not agree that this belt was enough. Secondly, so do the French. See Strasbourg. And thirdly, Dunkirk had an internal belt at a greater angle.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      then it suddenly turns out that 4 Essexes must be included in the design of Alaska :))))

                      You can make fun of Alaska a lot, why did they make Baltimore twice as big? But it would be strange to deny that he and Kroni belonged to different fleets and were given different tasks.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      they were used in some quantity

                      To some extent, yes.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      However, then the pendulum was ready to swing back

                      What are you going to do? We record the fact that the submarine war did not break the economy of the empire. You tell me amazing things that the Germans could have done but didn’t, or did, but they still didn’t help them in real life. That is, we are drawing some alt-positives for the Reich and alt-negatives for Britain.

                      Then win the Sea Lion, and you won't need boats at all. Why waste your time on trifles!

                      In real WWII, the real Germans at no point in time were able to blockade the island enough to even cast doubt on Britain's ability to continue the war.
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2024 11: 22
                        Quote: Negro
                        She didn't convince me

                        Well, I didn’t set myself such a thankless task :))))) I presented my point of view, confirming it with references to documents of that era - shooting tables, instructions. If you can give objections that are equivalent in validity, I will use it for you. But no, there’s nothing to discuss.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Firstly, the Germans did not agree that this belt was enough.

                        And can you provide a source in which this will be described?
                        Quote: Negro
                        Secondly, so do the French. See Strasbourg.

                        Well, well, why do that :))))) You know very well that Strasbourg was already designed in a different paradigm - it was urgent to build something in response to the Italian Littorio, and there was no time to wait for a new project. So we tightened up the defense as much as we could.
                        Quote: Negro
                        But it would be strange to deny that he and Kroni belonged to different fleets and were given different tasks.

                        Once again, we are comparing two ships. This can be done either by simulating a dueling situation, or by assessing their ability to complete the tasks that were assigned to them.
                        If you want a comparison from the tasks - no question, only then put your 4 Essexes with Alaskas on the eve of the Baltic, and simulate an oncoming battle, when these AUSs will be attacked by submarines, ground aircraft (including Tu-16 with KS-1) and various surface aircraft forces led by the Crowns.
                        Taking out the American Task Force at the peak of their power against a single Kron is simply... let's say, methodologically incorrect.
                        Quote: Negro
                        What are you going to do? We record a fact

                        You're doing yourself a favor again.
                        If you want to play historian and operate with facts, then England was able to achieve a turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic together with the United States. This is a historical fact and there is nothing to discuss here.
                        If you want to build alternatives to real history, and prove that England AND WITHOUT US SUPPORT could achieve this turning point (and your postulate that certain successes of England in 1941 would have spread to 1942 and beyond is precisely an alternative, probabilistic reality) , then please accept equally probabilistic arguments. You again follow double standards - your probabilities are a fact for you, and mine are “amazing things”.
                      2. +1
                        17 January 2024 21: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I presented my point of view, confirming it with references to documents of that era - shooting tables, instructions

                        You cited Soviet shooting tables from which it follows that the lifespan of a “deep” barrel was approximately 300 shots (like a King gun or the same ball) and thus the guns were enough for three complete shootings of cellars. However, I am interested in the repeatability of results, so to speak - it has never been a strong point of Soviet industry. Moreover, following you, I compare Soviet high-ballistic guns from the Bolshevik company (the Br-2 from the Barrikady company was based on their barrel) with their German counterparts and find the results of using both to be incomparable.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Can you provide a source that describes this?

                        On any fence, starting with navalveps, Okun fans have long written that 28 cm penetrates 28 centimeters of the reduced thickness of the Dunkirk belt at distances of up to 15-16 km. In fact, you understand, you have to try. However, it was completely impossible to break through the ball's citadel with the guns of Dunkirk.

                        If you prefer paper sources, check out Doolin Garzke.

                        As for Kroni and his artillery, you can find, for example, the following opinion:
                        Given the extremely high muzzle velocity and the lack of life extending enhancements like chromium plating, I cannot help but think that the actual barrel life of this gun would not have exceeded double digits.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You know very well that Strasbourg was designed in a different paradigm - there was an urgent need to build something in response to the Italian Littorio, and there was no time to wait for a new project. So we tightened up the defense as much as we could.

                        Vice versa. The laying of Strasbourg delayed the laying of Jean Bart for a year and a half. Strasbourg (an excellent ship in itself) was laid down simply out of greed.
                        As for Littorio, even the reinforced armor of Strasbourg is not enough against 381mm.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        If you want a comparison from the tasks - no question, only then put your 4 Essexes with Alaskas on the eve of the Baltic, and simulate an oncoming battle, when these AUSs will be attacked by submarines, ground aircraft (including Tu-16 with KS-1) and various surface aircraft forces led by the Crowns.

                        Khe khe.

                        Someone there, I remember, suggested that your Sevastopols shoot with Lizzie, but at least Bismarck didn’t appoint them as opponents. And here, it means, the American freak immediately finds himself in the Khrushchev era. Khrushchev, by the way, canceled all these battleship stories in one day, and this was certainly the right decision.

                        Well, in this case, let's act formally. Who is close to the Americans in terms of laying date and displacement? Dakota? So arrange a duel situation with her.

                        Stop, stop, I guessed it. We have to shoot landmines.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        England was able to achieve a turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic together with the United States. This is a historical fact and there is nothing to discuss here.

                        Well, actually the facts are different.

                        Britain, without US help, kept the situation stable in a "strange war" strategy. Her blockade worked, the German blockade did not work. This is a fact and it was so from the first to the last day of the war in Europe.

                        At no point in time can we state that Germany was winning the supply war.

                        Well, “with the help of the Americans” the Germans were simply removed from the Atlantic. They achieved not superiority, but essentially complete freedom of paths.
                      3. 0
                        18 January 2024 00: 01
                        Quote: Negro
                        On any fence, starting with navalveps, Okun fans have long written that 28 cm penetrates 28 centimeters of the reduced thickness of the Dunkirk belt at distances of up to 15-16 km. In fact, you understand, you have to try. However, it was completely impossible to break through the ball's citadel with the guns of Dunkirk.

                        For some reason, the Germans considered “Lorraine” to be the opponents of “Sh and G”. According to their calculations, it turned out that the 340-mm French would begin to attack the “twins” citadel from 10600 m.
                        Another thing is more interesting: they believed that Dunkirk would be able to penetrate the Bismarck citadel from 13000 m.
                      4. -1
                        18 January 2024 00: 56
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Another thing is more interesting: they believed that Dunkirk would be able to penetrate the Bismarck citadel from 13000 m.

                        Communication with you becomes even more educational than I expected. The Bismarck Citadel cannot be penetrated by anything - and it was precisely in connection with it that the corresponding experiment was carried out. Penetrating the bead and bevel of a 340mm ball also looks unlikely.

                        What kind of Germans are they throwing this at?
                      5. 0
                        18 January 2024 17: 52
                        Quote: Negro
                        What kind of Germans are they throwing this at?

                        You won’t believe it, but the OKM, which in 1940 issued the document “Unterlagen und Richtlinien zur Bestimmung der Hauptkampfentfernung und der Geschosswahl” (Initial data and guidelines for determining typical firing ranges and selecting projectiles).
                        Sections g and h are devoted to the "twins" and "bismarcks" respectively...
                        Data from there.
                      6. +1
                        18 January 2024 11: 42
                        Quote: Negro
                        However, I am interested in the repeatability of the results, so to speak.

                        Negro, you have the right to doubt anything. You will confirm your doubts with some documents :)))) Because you were provided with shooting tables based on practical shooting at KNIMPA as confirmation. And these Tables themselves were approved 10 years after the liners for the B-1-P appeared, and one must assume that serious statistics have been collected over these years.
                        It is a fact. If you have a refutation that the table data is incorrect, contact the studio. If not, don't waste my time
                        Quote: Negro
                        I am comparing Soviet high-ballistic guns from the Bolshevik company (Br-2 from the Barrikady company was based on their barrel) with their German counterparts

                        Well, compare further. But even the Br-2 (and not the barrels on which it was based) is much closer in technological level to the B-1-K than to the B-1-P, and mentioning it makes no sense at all.
                        Quote: Negro
                        On any fence, starting with navalveps, Okun fans have long written that 28 cm penetrates 28 centimeters of the reduced thickness of the Dunkirk belt at distances of up to 15-16 km.

                        That is, 82-88 artillery belts. And this is at an angle of 90 degrees.
                        in fact, the German ones will pose a danger even at a greater distance - a rupture of the AP at the bevel will lead to damage to the armored space with fragments, although formally the citadel will not be penetrated. And this is quite enough for boilers and machines.
                        Quote: Negro
                        However, it was completely impossible to break through the ball's citadel with the guns of Dunkirk.

                        Actually, in ideal conditions, at 23000 m (125 cables), Dunkirk’s guns penetrated 342 mm (we take the same navveps, so as not to run far)
                        That is, already with 125 cables, the Dunkirk BB will break when it hits the ShiG bevel, naturally smashing it to smithereens and hitting the armored space with debris.
                        Quote: Negro
                        On the contrary.

                        Yes, at least perpendicular :)))) They tried to stretch the defense of Strasbourg to the maximum level, without being tied to the ShiG guns.
                        Quote: Negro
                        And here, it means, the American freak immediately finds himself in the Khrushchev era.

                        That’s what I like about you Little Negro – your ability to see the speck in someone else’s eye without noticing the log in your own.
                        You demand that aircraft carriers be added to the comparison between Kron and Alaska on the side of the Americans, choosing both the time and the balance of forces as unfavorable as possible for Kron - and you consider yourself right. When I do the same thing - you don't like it
                        Quote: Negro
                        Well, in this case, let's act formally. Who is close to the Americans in terms of laying date and displacement? Dakota? So arrange a duel situation with her.

                        Perfectly.
                        American and Soviet cruisers are compared. Moreover, the American one was laid down later. The American one, of course, is better than the Soviet one, because the American battleship (!) laid down at the same time as the Soviet cruiser is stronger than the Soviet cruiser
                        Bravo!:)))))
                        Quote: Negro
                        Britain, without US help, kept the situation stable in a "strange war" strategy

                        Yeah, especially in 1940, when Britain's tonnage was steadily declining and it traded land for American destroyers
                      7. 0
                        18 January 2024 14: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Can you confirm your doubts with some documents?

                        You yourself described my doubts in the article on project 26. I quoted them. Worse, I have an extremely low opinion of Soviet artillery in general. If a gun with mediocre characteristics could be at the level of its analogues (ML-20), then all the “record” guns are scrap metal with no options. Based on Soviet documents, you are trying to prove that in the case of the Kirov guns this is not the case. In my case, you are unlikely to succeed. So I propose to end the discussion of Kirov.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Dunkirk will explode when it hits the ShiG bevel, naturally smashing it to smithereens

                        105mm bevel? To pieces? Half a liter?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        rupture of the AP on the bevel will lead to damage to the armored space by fragments, although formally the citadel will not be penetrated

                        I do not consider such cases. It is impossible to compare, pure chance.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        They tried to stretch the defense of Strasbourg to the maximum level, without being tied to the ShiG guns.

                        In this formulation, yes, perhaps. Moreover, Strasbourg was founded later by Littorio, but earlier than ShiG.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        When I do the same thing - you don't like it

                        So the trouble is that your Kroni, with his participation in the Suez and even more so the Cuban missile crisis, had even less luck. Even in the drug world, where Project 23 was built.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        American and Soviet cruisers are compared.

                        American and Soviet battleships are compared.

                        In principle, if this is important to you, you can send 6 cruisers of the 26th project to Alaska, in the style of the battle at La Plata. Should be enough. It was also decommissioned in 47, so it won’t even interfere with the 68 project. What kind of Tu-16 are there?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yeah, especially in 1940, when Britain's tonnage was steadily declining and it traded land for American destroyers

                        Oh my God, destroyers with bases were dragged along with the merchant tonnage. This is not the right steppe at all.
                      8. +1
                        18 January 2024 15: 14
                        Quote: Negro
                        105mm bevel? To pieces?

                        Naturally. Didn’t you know that in fact the bevel provided reliable protection only if the shell exploded before reaching it? But if it does fly, all hope is only for a rebound.
                        Generally speaking, during the tests of 1920, even cemented 75 mm armor did not really cope with unloaded BBs.
                        Quote: Negro
                        I do not consider such cases. It is impossible to compare, pure chance.

                        And there is nothing to consider here - this is an objective reality, without any chance. The bevel and everything behind it will work reliably only when the projectile penetrates the belt at the limit and explodes before reaching the bevel. And that's not always the case.
                        Quote: Negro
                        So the trouble is that your Kroni, with his participation in the Suez and even more so the Cuban missile crisis, had even less luck

                        But he wouldn’t go either way. He has his own tasks, which I described above.
                        Quote: Negro
                        American and Soviet battleships are compared.

                        Project 69 became a battleship? :)))))
                        Quote: Negro
                        Oh my God, destroyers with bases were dragged along with the merchant tonnage.

                        I just reminded you how and how England “coped”
                      9. 0
                        18 January 2024 15: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Didn’t you know that in fact the bevel provided reliable protection only if the shell exploded before reaching it? But if it does fly, all hope is only for a rebound.
                        Generally speaking, during the tests of 1920, even cemented 75 mm armor did not really cope with unloaded BBs.

                        Cough cough. Actually, we are talking about different things. It’s one thing when a projectile with its kinetic energy enters thin armor at any angle (especially 3 or more times thinner than the caliber). Then yes, the theme of the given armor does not work. Another thing is that the projectile, having lost energy at the belt, tries to break through the bevel of the deck mainly with its weight. The question is whether it will have enough weight for 105mm or not. For 330mm it’s unlikely, and even more so for 305.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the shell pierced the belt at the limit and exploded before reaching the bevel. And that's not always the case.

                        Not quite.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        it has its own tasks, which I described above.

                        Croney's tasks are leading the cruisers, I remember. But as for the Baltic/World Cup and, accordingly, the invariably peaceful policy of the Soviet government, you have already thought of it yourself. In what places did the real USSR brandish weapons in the 50s and 60s? Still, since the 30s, the geography of his interests has expanded sharply.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Project 69 became a battleship?:

                        Certainly. More than 17K VI, more than 10" main battery. Battleship without options. What its designers wrote to each other in their papers is not interesting.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I just reminded you how and how England “coped”

                        The deal with the bases made it possible to clear old English debts so that new ones could be made. The Americans simply gave the destroyers as a load, like flyers.
                      10. 0
                        19 January 2024 08: 55
                        Quote: Negro
                        Another thing is that the projectile, having lost energy at the belt, tries to break through the bevel of the deck mainly with its weight

                        Negro, well, this is a general lack of understanding of how it works. For example, if the Navveps data is correct, and at 23000 m a 330 mm penetrates 342 mm armor, then at the same range after penetrating 320 mm armor the projectile will maintain a speed of 134 m/s. And after breaking through 320 artillery belts of armor of the same quality of 90 mm, the projectile will maintain a speed of almost 315 m/s. This energy is enough to penetrate 175 mm of cemented armor of the same quality. True, I have some doubts that the Navveps data is correct, but, again, doubts cannot be attached to the matter, and the general principle remains the same in any case. So, even if navveps composes, the probability that at the same 90 kb in ideal conditions (hit at 90 degrees) the projectile will explode in the process of overcoming the bevel is extremely high and higher than any other outcome
                        Quote: Negro
                        Croney's tasks are leading the cruisers, I remember. But as for the Baltic/World Cup and, accordingly, the invariably peaceful policy of the Soviet government, you have already thought of it yourself.

                        No, I was just taking the typical tasks of the DIKR (divisions of our cruisers):)))
                        Quote: Negro
                        In what places did the real USSR brandish weapons in the 50s and 60s?

                        And they were wrong, as always. Because during the Suez crisis, the United States, oddly enough, was on our side and advocated ending the conflict, so no war could take place with them. And England and France had neither Alaska nor Essex. And in the Cuban missile crisis, large surface forces of USSR warships did not go to Cuba.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Certainly. More than 17K VI, more than 10" main battery. Battleship without options.

                        Poor owl :))) No, cruiser :))) Because the second London one fell asleep with the beginning of WWII, and Kronstadt was founded after the beginning of WWII. In the same way, the Americans, when laying down Alaska, did not consider it a LC. I think that the US Congress understood the issue a little better than yours :))))
                        Quote: Negro
                        The deal with the bases allowed old English debts to be cleared so that new ones could be made

                        The point is that Britain's tonnage was declining in 1940, and at an alarming rate, so your thesis
                        Quote: Negro
                        Britain, without US help, kept the situation stable in a "strange war" strategy.

                        a little wrong
                      11. 0
                        19 January 2024 17: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        True, I have some doubts that the Navveps data is correct, but, again, doubts cannot be attached to the matter

                        Well why not? Dulin and Garzke addressed their doubts and write that the citadel of the ball was not knocked out lightly (1020 kg) 16" to 11 km. There, taking into account the bevel angle (didn’t catch my eye, but let’s say 45 g), the reduced thickness strictly horizontally is half a meter.

                        In any case, it’s funny to hear such numbers from Andrey “225 mm LC belt is enough” from Chelyabinsk.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        took typical tasks of DIKR (divisions of our cruisers)

                        From the 30s? Yes, that's what we're talking about.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        no war could take place with them.

                        It’s as if if you put Vanguard or Jean Bart instead of Dakota, something changes a lot))
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        oddly enough, they were on our side

                        The British and French had been in Eisenhower's lap since the days of the SES. More seriously, ending the colonial system was a top priority for the Americans.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        large surface forces of USSR warships did not go to Cuba.

                        How can I tell you? In reality, there were no Kronstadts at all, just like Alaska in the 50s. However, the raid on the Gulf of Finland that you proposed did not happen, but the problems I suggested on distant frontiers did exist.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Poor owl

                        Everything is fine with her.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I think that the US Congress understood the issue a little better than yours :))))

                        Anglo-Saxons are very insincere people. Just ask Samsonov. And I am always for the truth.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The point is that Britain's tonnage was declining in 1940, and at an alarming rate,

                        You're making me look up tonnage numbers, but I'm too lazy. Therefore, another argument: you “award” the final victory to the Germans based on one successful segment of the war. It’s good that you didn’t get around to analyzing the Second World War using this method, extrapolating the results of the first year for the entire war.
                      12. 0
                        19 January 2024 18: 43
                        Quote: Negro
                        Well why not? Dulin and Garzke corrected their doubts and write that the citadel of the ball was not knocked out with a light (1020 kg) 16" up to 11 km.

                        That there is a clear error in terms of armor penetration formulas.
                        Quote: Negro
                        There, taking into account the bevel angle (didn’t catch my eye, but let’s say 45 g), the given thickness strictly horizontally is half a meter.

                        What's the point? The cast is naive. Firstly, the durability of spaced slabs is lower than that of a slab of their total thickness. Secondly, the durability of an uncemented bevel (and PT bulkhead) is lower than that of a cemented GBP. If you take all this into account, there won’t be any “half meters” there.
                        Quote: Negro
                        In any case, it’s funny to hear such numbers from Andrey “225 mm LC belt is enough” from Chelyabinsk.

                        Only to those who do not see the difference in WWII and WWII guns.
                        Quote: Negro
                        From the 30s? Yes, that's what we're talking about.

                        Not from the 30s, but from the 50s
                        Quote: Negro
                        It’s as if if you put Vanguard or Jean Bart instead of Dakota, something changes a lot))

                        But KS-1 somehow doesn’t matter...
                        Quote: Negro
                        However, the raid on the Gulf of Finland that you proposed did not happen, but the problems I suggested on distant frontiers did exist.

                        The fact of the matter is that they were, and we know exactly what role the fleet played. Our concept was purely defensive in the Baltic, and purely offensive at the World Cup (capturing the Straits). And in the same Cuban missile crisis, there was an idea to send a submarine squadron, 2 cruisers with destroyers, including missile destroyers, etc. to Cuba. surface ships were even planning to do this. But according to common sense, all NK remained in the bases, and only 4 submarines went to Cuba.
                        That is, we know for sure that the USSR would not have sent its surface squadrons to such distances. Because he didn’t actually send them. But for you, everything is exactly the opposite - Soviet cruisers are joyfully rushing across the ocean to fight with the US AUS...
                        Quote: Negro
                        And I am always for the truth.

                        Great joke, I had a good laugh!
                        Quote: Negro
                        You're making me look up tonnage numbers, but I'm too lazy.

                        Also an argument.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Therefore, another argument: you “award” the final victory to the Germans based on one successful segment of the war.

                        Yes, the Lord Almighty is with you, when did I award them what?
                      13. 0
                        19 January 2024 20: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        a clear mistake in terms of armor penetration formulas.

                        Yes, it looks too flattering. I would limit myself to Brittany and Dunkirk at most.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        who does not see the difference in WWII and WWII guns.

                        )))
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Our concept was purely defensive in the Baltic,

                        Ok, the cruiser pr.69 is a coastal defense battleship, a battleship of the Baltic Sea. I wrote it down in my folder of your sayings.

                        However, it’s empty. Discussing battles between a ship that was not built and a ship that was decommissioned after 3 years of service is not that interesting.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        when did I award them what?

                        Forgotten? Happenes.
                      14. 0
                        20 January 2024 10: 03
                        Quote: Negro
                        Ok, this is the cruiser pr.69

                        Suddenly, cruiser :))))
                        Quote: Negro
                        However, it’s empty.

                        It’s been a long time, but it was fun to stretch a little.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Forgotten? Happenes.

                        And, naturally, you are too lazy to quote the place where I stated this :)))))
                      15. 0
                        20 January 2024 13: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Suddenly, cruiser

                        A Baltic Sea cruiser sounds even better than a coastal defense battleship.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Naturally you are lazy

                        Naturally, to swing up so much
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The point is that Britain's tonnage was declining in 1940, and at an alarming rate, so your thesis

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I just reminded you how and how England “coped”

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        However, then the pendulum was ready to swing back - the Germans mastered aerial reconnaissance and wolf packs and the production of submarines increased, but... the Americans appeared :)))) And it was more effective to concentrate on them
                        The British themselves never believed that in 1941 they were able to achieve a turning point in the submarine war

                        All these statements can be understood in two ways:
                        Germany’s strategy was generally reasonable (and in Germany’s conditions the only one possible for a naval war with Britain), however, the alliance of the two strongest naval powers in the world was able to “achieve a turning point” in 43-44, when American base and deck-based AWACS were able to provide virtually complete control of sea routes.
                        My position is that the underwater genocide of 43-44 was not conditionally Moscow, Stalingrad or even the Kursk war in the Atlantic, but the Berlin operation: it ended this war. Already in 40-41, the British were able to push the Germans not “further into the ocean”, but to the “red lines”: into the “neutral patrol” zone. Thus, the only German weapon of naval warfare was effectively neutralized. The Germans could fray their nerves, but no more: let me remind you that the Germans themselves transported rubber on submarines.

                        That is, as of the 41st year already we can conclude that the underwater map of the Reich is broken. And this is generally his only map in the war at sea with Britain. “Maybe the Germans would have acted better” - well, we know how they acted. And we know the result.
                      16. 0
                        20 January 2024 14: 28
                        Quote: Negro
                        Baltic Sea cruiser sounds even better

                        Just a cruiser :)))))
                        Quote: Negro
                        All these statements can be understood in two ways

                        Try the third method: read as it is written and don’t think for your opponent.
                        Quote: Negro
                        My position

                        It is clear to me. The essence of my position is that:
                        1) Initially, in 1939 -1940, the Germans achieved amazing successes in submarine warfare, but did not have enough submarines to blockade England. Nevertheless, the general trend was far from being in favor of England - its trade tonnage was declining.
                        2) At some point, British countermeasures led to the fact that German submarines lost their former effectiveness (ratio of sunk transports per 1 sunk submarine) in the waters adjacent to England.
                        But, unlike you, I see this as a temporary success. The British achieved that transports were now built faster than they were sunk by the Germans, yes, but this success consisted of:
                        a) Strengthening England's anti-aircraft defense in coastal areas.
                        b) The lack of German submarines capable of operating in the ocean, and a decrease in the overall effectiveness of submarines due to long transitions to the patrol area
                        c) The Germans lack an ocean reconnaissance system - searching for convoys
                        d) The lack of proven tactics to combat British shipping in the ocean.
                        So, later the Germans were able to:
                        - significantly increase the number of submarines suitable for ocean operations
                        - create effective maritime aerial reconnaissance
                        - Organize effective tactics for submarines in the ocean
                        This is a historical fact, and all this sharply increased the effectiveness of German submarines relative to the level of 1940-41. And here the question arises: would this have been enough to defeat England if the United States had not come to its aid?
                        My answer is that the primary male sexual characteristic knows it. My opinion is that in 1941 England managed to defeat German submarines off its shores, but the Germans had not yet learned to fight in the ocean. But by 1942 they had learned, and England would have to go to the ocean to win victory there as well. Would they be able to do it? I don't know. This would definitely require much more effort to build destroyers and escort aircraft, and the replenishment of transport tonnage would be slower.
                        Therefore, in my opinion, it is impossible to say for sure who would have won the submarine war if the United States had not entered the war. I fully admit that the Germans could have succeeded. But it might not have worked out, of course.
                      17. 0
                        20 January 2024 14: 50
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Just a cruiser

                        The cruisers are cruising, but you can’t let this freak out of the Baltic - otherwise someone who sees a Soviet battleship with the same caliber will laugh at him. If the ball is a recruiser that mutated into a sub-battleship during construction, then 69 is simply a monument to the Soviet shipbuilding school. Luckily for her, it wasn't built.

                        However, they built a lot of other things, no better.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        My opinion is that in 1941 England managed to defeat German submarines off its shores, but the Germans had not yet learned to fight in the ocean.

                        Well, that is, I call the same events a turning point, and you call them a “pendulum”, which in 42 went back, but hit the Americans, who quickly broke both the pendulum and the entire clock.

                        My position is different. I believe that the second happy times were simply a gift to the Germans from Knox and King. If the Americans, from the first day, had provided in their 200-mile zone the anti-aircraft defense standards that the British had provided by that time, we would not have learned anything about the desperate fluttering of the Germans in a naval war against opponents who outnumbered the Germans at sea by at least 10 times. So to speak, the American fleet had its 41st year not only in the Pacific Ocean.
                      18. -1
                        20 January 2024 15: 10
                        Quote: Negro
                        The cruisers are cruising, but you can’t let this freak out of the Baltic

                        I can, of course, but against whom? You have again mixed up “ponies, people and volleys of a thousand guns.” If we are talking about the United States, then since 1943 they have had a multi-power standard, so no large surface ship, no matter how good it is, can be sent against them further than the seas adjacent to our territory. This is an objective reality and the project is not at all to blame.
                        In the same way, it would be impossible to send the conditional Soviet “Alaska” into battle against the United States if we tried to build our Kronstadts according to its design.
                        Quote: Negro
                        and you call it a “pendulum”, which in 42 was about to go back, but hit the Americans, who quickly broke both the pendulum and the entire clock.

                        Yes.
                        Quote: Negro
                        If the Americans, from the first day, had provided in their 200-mile zone those anti-aircraft defense standards that the British had provided by that time, we would not have learned anything about the desperate fluttering of the Germans in a naval war with their opponents

                        If they had found out, the Germans would not have gone to the US coast then, but would have focused on ocean communications, and would have had a good profit there until the Americans came to the ocean,
                        Quote: Negro
                        They quickly broke both the pendulum and the entire clock.

                        But this, too, would not have happened immediately - still, even the United States would have needed some time to create armadas of escort aircraft and anti-aircraft defense ships.
                        Of course, the Germans, in principle, had no chance against England and the United States... but in the ocean they would still flutter for some time.
                      19. 0
                        19 January 2024 19: 41
                        Quote: Negro
                        Well why not? Dulin and Garzke addressed their doubts and write that the citadel of the ball was not knocked out lightly (1020 kg) 16" to 11 km. There, taking into account the bevel angle (didn’t catch my eye, but let’s say 45 g), the reduced thickness strictly horizontally is half a meter.

                        The Germans in 1940 believed that the “twins” had no SSM under fire from “Nelsons”: the belt + bevel fight up to 28300 m, and the decks begin to fight from 27900 m.
                        "Scharnhorst" (again according to German calculations) at more or less reasonable combat distances could reach "Nelsons" only through barbettes at distances of up to 13000 m.
                        ZY The slope of the Scharnhorst bevel is 25 degrees.
                      20. 0
                        19 January 2024 20: 16
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The slope of the Scharnhorst bevel is 25 degrees.

                        From vertical or horizontal? That is, is it almost vertical or almost horizontal?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Germans in 1940 believed

                        After the first six attempts to catch Harry lying, each with more and more absurd statements, Draco realized that Harry never lies about what is written in the books.

                        As I understand it, we are talking about the same Gdocs. I saw your message, thanks, but haven't found them yet. In addition, as I already mentioned, in the case of Bismarck an experiment was carried out: its results are at the bottom, but as far as we know, the authors of Gdox were wrong.

                        However, it never occurred to me to imagine the ball as an enemy of the battleship. With the exception of Sevastopol, of course.
                      21. 0
                        19 January 2024 20: 53
                        Quote: Negro
                        From vertical or horizontal? That is, is it almost vertical or almost horizontal?

                        Toward the horizon, that is, almost horizontal.

                        Quote: Negro
                        As I understand it, we are talking about the same Gdocs. I saw your message, thanks, but haven't found them yet.

                        It is online, although the scans are cr...but readable.

                        Quote: Negro
                        In addition, as I already mentioned, in the case of Bismarck an experiment was carried out: its results are at the bottom, but as far as we know

                        Key: "as far as known"...
                      22. 0
                        19 January 2024 23: 46
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        that is, almost horizontal.

                        That is, the reduced horizontal thickness is enormous.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Key: "as far as known"...

                        Do you think Rodney has broken through the citadel?
                      23. 0
                        20 January 2024 12: 18
                        Quote: Negro
                        That is, the reduced horizontal thickness is enormous.

                        But the projectile does not go strictly horizontally.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Do you think Rodney has broken through the citadel?

                        There are a couple of pieces of evidence that at least one shell hit the car...
                        By the way, the British believed that the Tirpitz citadel was beginning to break through
                        - "KD5" - from 16000 yards;
                        - "Rodney" - from 17000 yards.
                      24. 0
                        20 January 2024 13: 23
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        But the projectile does not go strictly horizontally.

                        Yes, with increasing angle of incidence of the projectile, the reduced thickness quickly drops, but to what figure? At no point is the thickness of the vertical protection lower than just the stupid thickness of the belt + deck, that is, 425 cm (even more, but God bless them, with cosines). Therefore, one of the participants in the discussion suggests considering the deck to be conditionally non-existent - then yes, a lot of things can penetrate a 320mm belt. Even 12/52 1907, if you can sneak up 10 km underwater.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        There are a couple of pieces of evidence that at least one shell hit the car...

                        Well, that would be a good result too. As we know, one shell that hits where it shouldn’t can happen to anyone.
                    2. +1
                      16 January 2024 18: 02
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      203 mm/60 model SkL/60 Mod.C 34

                      The correct name for the gun was 20,3 cm SK C/34

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      At the same time, the survivability of the German barrel (according to various sources) ranged from 500 to 510 shots.

                      The survivability of these guns is an interesting question...
                      The Germans themselves assessed the survivability of the barrel based on the condition that the initial velocity of the projectile dropped by 10%. Based on this criterion, survivability was 600 shots. Theoretical calculations performed by Soviet specialists in December 1939 confirmed the German data: survivability was approximately 610 shots. However, inspection and measurements of chambers and gun bores at the Meppen training ground forced our artillerymen to recalculate survivability. According to new calculations, the real survivability of a 203 mm gun liner was no more than 380 - 400 rounds with a full combat charge.
                      The figure of 500 shots is given by Campbell in his work, but how it was obtained is unknown.
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2024 08: 56
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The correct name for the gun was 20,3 cm SK C/34

                        Yes, that's right, thanks for correcting me. I copied and pasted from an old article without thinking.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Germans themselves assessed the survivability of the barrel based on the condition that the initial velocity of the projectile dropped by 10%

                        That is, the criteria were similar to ours
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        According to new calculations, the real survivability of a 203 mm gun liner was no more than 380 - 400 rounds with a full combat charge.

                        Which is still noticeably better than the 320 rounds of the B-1-P, but this is not surprising - taking into account the revolutionary failures in the evolution of weapons, it is unlikely that our first guns could 100% correspond to the best world standards.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The figure of 500 shots is given by Campbell in his work, but how it was obtained is unknown.

                        As always, thank you very much for the comprehensive explanations! hi
      2. +3
        14 January 2024 15: 26
        Quote: Negro
        Well, if you please.

        What is this all for ? Since you are going to answer, just provide data on how much the Kronstadt armor weighed, according to the final design, so that you can compare it with the Scharnhorst.
      3. 0
        15 January 2024 15: 35
        Quote: Negro
        The Soviet freaks of Project 69 were certainly worse than the Alaskas, and would easily have taken the crown of the most wretched design of the Capital Ships era from the latter.

        It’s just that the development of Project 69 was stopped halfway and was not allowed to move from the similar “Type B Battleship” to the battleship of Project 64 - as happened during the development of the previous program. smile
        However, judging by Project 69I, Black Abdullah The Navy still did not calm down.
        1. -1
          15 January 2024 20: 26
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Black Abdullah

          There, rather, to hell with the questions.
          1. +2
            16 January 2024 10: 28
            Quote: Negro
            There, rather, to hell with the questions.

            Well, yes, he made the final decision. But the justification for replacing the Civil Code was prepared by the Military Medical Academy.
            According to his [Stalin's] instructions, to evaluate the combat capabilities of heavy cruisers with 380-mm main-caliber turrets installed on them, the Naval Academy held two additional tactical games in May 1940, where the same small battleships were taken as opponents to the Project 69 ship." Scharnhorst and Dunkirk. The results of the games showed that replacing 305 mm guns with 380 mm guns, even with fewer of them, qualitatively changes the power of its artillery weapons. At the same time, the armor of enemy ships is penetrated by larger shells and combat distances (69-110 kbt), which were previously disadvantageous for Project 170, are eliminated. The smaller number of hits from 380 mm shells is compensated by an increase in the affected area behind the armor. This predetermined the decision to develop the Kronstadt rearmament project.
            1. 0
              16 January 2024 12: 08
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But the justification for replacing the Civil Code was prepared by the Military Medical Academy.

              Replacing 12 inches with 15 for a super-Washingtonian did not require any justification; it is a step towards common sense (of course, the best step was to cancel their construction entirely).

              It's more about the approach itself. Alaska was such a squalor because it was “designed” by King and Roosevelt, extremely influential, extremely vindictive and extremely ignorant people in this matter. Therefore, no one began to explain to them that to build a 30-knot Carolina, they need to take the project of a 30-knot Carolina, and not invent the devil. It would have been easier to give them $400 million for 6 unnecessary ships and not complicate their lives.

              Extremely influential, extremely vindictive and extremely ignorant on this matter. Cough, cough, the entire Big Fleet was designed by Stalin personally. Well, as he designed, he gave valuable guidelines that were not subject to discussion.
              1. +1
                16 January 2024 19: 27
                Quote: Negro
                Replacing 12 inches with 15 for a super-Washingtonian did not require any justification; it is a step towards common sense (of course, the best step was to cancel their construction entirely).

                This is what happened in the first iteration of the Big Fleet - when the designers of the large cruiser upgraded their design first to the “LK type B”, and then to Project 64, which practically merged with Project 23. After which this whole topic was closed along with the developers.
                1. -1
                  16 January 2024 20: 08
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  This whole topic was closed along with the developers.

                  As further developments showed, the wrong ones were closed.
  5. +8
    14 January 2024 05: 49
    And they would not have sunk from single hits from “Harpoons” and “Neputuns”.

    Gneisenau - “On the night of February 27, 1942, a 1000-pound British air bomb (1780 kg) hit the upper deck and exploded on the armored deck near tower A (Anton). The damage was aggravated by the detonation of the entire ammunition of this tower, as a result causing severe damage to the ship." That is, it was disabled and was never restored from being hit by 1 (one) bomb!
    Scharnhorst - “an hour later, the Scharnhorst boilers failed, since a 356-mm armor-piercing shell from the main battery of the English battleship pierced the thin upper armor belt and the glacis of the main boiler room (80 mm), which rose 70-80 cm above the main armored deck After this, the speed of the battleship dropped to 8 knots, although prompt repairs made it possible to increase it to 22 knots, but the fate of the ship was already decided. Thanks to the surprise, the Duke of York escaped with minimal damage, while the Scharnhorst, despite its powerful armor[4 ], lost momentum and, having lost most of the artillery, became vulnerable to destroyers." A successful hit by 1 (one) shell will cause it to stop moving and be sunk by torpedoes.
    Conclusion: the author is trying to “pull the owl onto the globe.”
    1. +1
      14 January 2024 06: 00
      On the night of February 27 1942 year

      Why did you wait three years?
      The war had been going on since 1939
      /sarcasm/


      «The explosion caused significant damage to the hull and flooded several compartments, causing a 0,5° list to port. The shock caused the right low-pressure turbine and the aft rangefinder station equipment to fail. Repairs were carried out in a floating dock in Kiel from 6 to 21 May. After a short test run On May 27th he returned to Kiel in full combat readiness».

      This is from the battle chronicle of Gneisenau
      —————-//—
      Scharnhorst
      Survived 6 bombings and 1 torpedo hit - from a sunken destroyer, which until the last defended the dying AV Glories. Also, the German LKR was blown up twice by mines while breaking through the English Channel.

      In the fourth year of unsuccessful attempts to block and destroy it, the Scharnhorst was nevertheless overtaken and sunk by a British squadron in the battle near Cape North Cape (New Year's battle of 1943)
      1. +2
        14 January 2024 06: 17
        Why did you wait? You yourself describe mine explosions and torpedoes. (But what does armor have to do with it? Does it protect against torpedoes?)
        1. +1
          14 January 2024 06: 40
          You yourself describe mine explosions and torpedoes.

          He gave a description of the battle damage, from those that I remembered, where you can quickly find

          The consequences of bomb hits, I’ll find them in an hour, I’ll definitely give them
          Why did you wait?

          It’s clear that they didn’t expect it, all German large ships were constantly under attack, both at sea and in bases

          If they were now hammering at Sevastopol and Novorossiysk with such intensity, there would be nothing left of the Black Sea Fleet the next day
          1. 0
            14 January 2024 08: 58
            The consequences of bomb hits, I’ll find them in an hour, I’ll definitely give them

            He returned to the computer, so about the bombs:

            Scharnhorst, taken by surprise at a secret anchorage near Brest.

            ... Of the dropped 15 kg of armor-piercing and 454 high-explosive bombs (according to other sources, these were 53 kg of armor-piercing and 900 kg of semi-armor-piercing) - five of them simultaneously hit the ship to starboard - almost in a straight line parallel to the center plane.

            The ship received a list of 8 degrees to starboard, as most of the compartments of the counter-flooding system were flooded. The amount of water received reached 3000 tons (of which 1200 tons were a result of counter-flooding), the stern draft increased by 3 m. The bow and stern main caliber towers, as well as half of the anti-aircraft artillery, were temporarily out of action. Several small fires that started were quickly extinguished. Two crew members were killed and 15 were injured. What saved him from more severe damage was that the 454 kg bomb did not explode.

            Thanks to the organized struggle for survivability, the roll and trim were corrected quite quickly. Steam in the boilers was raised in record time. The draft remained a meter more, but by 19.30 the ship was able to leave for Brest, reaching a speed of 25 knots.

            PS. And why the bombs did not explode is also the merit of the armor. Firstly, it is more difficult to adjust the fuse; in the end, it is so dull that it does not work at all. Secondly, the impact itself on the armor distorts the bomb
            1. 0
              14 January 2024 10: 07
              Two 227 kg exploded bombs are not a lot for a ship of 35 thousand tons. The target is too big.
              The Ohio tanker was three and a half times smaller, had no armor, but was filled to the brim with jet fuel. They put as many guns into him as Sh and G had never seen during the entire war.
              1. +3
                14 January 2024 11: 16
                ve 227kg exploded bombs is not a lot for a ship of 35 thousand tons

                On board the ship of 35 thousand tons there were 3000 tons of power plant mechanisms, 5400 tons of weapons and ammunition and 1,5-2 thousand people. crew

                And all this remained unharmed - the ship was moving at full speed, no detonations and no significant casualties among the crew. Cracks, charred paint and split skin seams are too small a price to pay during a bombardment. In a structure in which there is nowhere for the apple to fall - everything is filled with mechanisms, habitable premises, posts and equipment
                but was filled to capacity with jet fuel

                The tanker is simply a large vessel, in which there was nothing except jet fuel, which provided buoyancy in the event of holes in the hull

                You yourself understand this well, so you cited Ohio as an example for the sake of humor
                1. +4
                  14 January 2024 12: 21
                  The survivability of a ship is not only buoyancy, Oleg, and you know this very well. But kerosene and explosives on board do not really contribute to this. Otherwise Taiho would not have been sunk. And Gneisenau too.
                  I have a question: which Black Sea Fleet ships should we book from drones and anti-ship missiles? 2500-4000 ton large landing ships and frigates?
                  Or should we have built a fleet of 35-60 thousand tons per unit?
              2. +1
                15 January 2024 12: 20
                Quote: Tlauicol
                The Ohio tanker was three and a half times smaller, had no armor, but was filled to the brim with jet fuel. They put as many guns into him as Sh and G had never seen during the entire war.

                Tankers are very difficult targets to sink. Remember how the poor Neosho was sunk - 7 direct hits and 1 ram, after which the tanker stayed afloat for another 4 days.
                It was not for nothing that the sailors tried to get on those escort aircraft that were rebuilt from tankers - there the chances of survival were greatest.
            2. +1
              15 January 2024 12: 03
              Quote: Santa Fe
              The ship received a list of 8 degrees to starboard, as most of the compartments of the counter-flooding system were flooded. The amount of water received reached 3000 tons (of which 1200 tons were a result of counter-flooding), the stern draft increased by 3 m. The bow and stern main caliber towers, as well as half of the anti-aircraft artillery, were temporarily out of action.

              And this is from two hits of 227 kg semi-armor-piercing bombs. Because three armor-piercing ones did not explode.
              Quote: Santa Fe
              The draft remained a meter more, but by 19.30 the ship was able to leave for Brest, reaching a speed of 25 knots.

              Why don’t you quote further? wink
              But the damage invisible to the eye turned out to be very serious. In addition to work on the hull, it was necessary to replace about 50 km of fire control system cables and 150 km of power cables. For Admiral Raeder, this was a heavy blow: all three heavy ships in Brest were out of action, the Lutzow and Scheer were being repaired in the metropolis, and the Tirpitz had not yet passed the required tests. The Scharnhorst repair took 4 months.
              1. 0
                15 January 2024 12: 06
                The amount of water received reached 3000 tons (of which 1200 tons were a result of counter-flooding),

                Not a threat for a ship of 30+ thousand tons
                Because three armor-piercing ones did not explode.

                Holes left
                The Scharnhorst repair took 4 months.

                Here is the answer. Excellent result
                1. 0
                  15 January 2024 13: 14
                  Here is the answer: 30+ thousand tons Yes
                  And if it had been hit by 3,5 times more air bombs and torpedoes than in Ohio, would it have reached Malta, ugh, the nearest dock in Brest at least?
                  1. 0
                    16 January 2024 08: 24
                    Would he have reached Malta, ugh, the nearest dock in Brest at least?

                    Seydlitz has reached, and the worse is Scharnhorst
                    1. 0
                      16 January 2024 09: 17
                      Quote: Santa Fe
                      Would he have reached Malta, ugh, the nearest dock in Brest at least?

                      Seydlitz has reached, and the worse is Scharnhorst

                      What, 15 air bombs and three torpedoes hit him (well, if you compare the displacement)? Although a couple of 500ft and a torpedo would have been enough for him
                    2. 0
                      16 January 2024 18: 03
                      Quote: Santa Fe
                      Seydlitz has reached, and the worse is Scharnhorst

                      Funny comparison between warm and soft...
      2. +1
        14 January 2024 14: 54
        British semi-armor-piercing (penetrating) aerial bomb 1700 lb, 726 kg, adopted for service in 1943. It was first used at Tirpitz in 44. "Gneisenau" "received" the usual 454 - kg. Why such consequences happened - there are several reasons at once.
    2. +1
      14 January 2024 14: 21
      A thousand pounds is 454 kg, you are confusing this with another bomb that came out much later.
      1. 0
        14 January 2024 14: 31
        A thousand pounds is 454 kg.

        It may very well be so. The bomb was definitely 1000 pounds. I didn’t know how much it was in conventional units and looked it up on the Internet. Thanks for the clarification! drinks
    3. +3
      14 January 2024 20: 01
      Quote: Amateur
      “An hour later, the Scharnhorst boilers failed, since a 356-mm armor-piercing shell from the main battery of the English battleship pierced the thin upper armor belt and the glacis of the main boiler compartment (80 mm), which rose 70-80 cm above the main armored deck.

      Nobody knows what was there.
      You are presenting the version proposed by Dulin and Hartzke, which they have been trying to clearly explain for almost 40 years.
      The Germans believed it was a torpedo
      The British, that the diving shell
      Some researchers now believe that poor-quality repairs of the power plant are to blame.
  6. +2
    14 January 2024 06: 01
    even a fraction of those protective measures and techniques would allow modern cruisers to ignore attacks from naval drones. And they would not have sunk from single hits from “Harpoons” and “Neputuns”.

    Dear Oleg,
    as historical facts testify, not only single, even several direct hits from anti-ship missiles are not enough to sink not only a cruiser, but even a frigate or destroyer. At least in a real battle, at least at the training ground.
    1. +7
      14 January 2024 06: 31
      even a few direct hits from anti-ship missiles are not enough to sink not only a cruiser, but even a frigate or destroyer. At least in a real battle, at least at the training ground.

      Comrade Maltsev, this was a general description of the situation. Burned and flooded or - burned but was not flooded, already unpleasant details

      The most insignificant means - subsonic plastic Neptunes, some kind of jet skis with a bomb, allow you to tear the hulls of modern ships like foil, and will cause unacceptable damage to the insides of ships

      This is a strange situation, absurd, and history knows a simple solution to such a problem.

      How many hits to the surface of the hull are required to literally sink a ship (the answer is that you will have to wait days or weeks, sometimes months) - a separate interesting topic
      1. +3
        14 January 2024 15: 14
        Quote: Santa Fe
        this was a general description of the situation. Burned and flooded or - burned but was not flooded, already unpleasant details

        Dear Oleg,
        Would it be difficult for you to give specific examples where a hit by a “single” anti-ship missile, as you yourself said, would lead to the consequences you listed?
        The facts of missile hits on British and American surface ships are well known and confirmed by photographic documents.
        In case you start talking about the cruiser "Moscow", I will note that:
        a) according to statements from the Ukrainian media, there were two missiles, although there was a statement that there were three,
        b) I will ask you to provide objective evidence of the alleged missile hit on the cruiser.

        Dear colleague, we will materialists - since there was a hit, there must be evidence.
        But you can say anything - shoot down ten Daggers out of ten, shoot down a Su-34 with a hunting rifle and a cruise missile with a jar of cucumbers from a balcony, eliminate the commander of the Black Sea Fleet. But without evidence these are all empty words.
      2. 0
        17 January 2024 02: 39
        How are you intelligently swearing and arguing very interestingly, but nothing is clear))
  7. 0
    14 January 2024 08: 57
    The combat stability of the Scharnhorst was ensured by 14 tons of structural protection. The visual equivalent of this value is 250 railway cars with rolled metal.

    And wouldn’t it be easier then to build such ships in the trimaran format?
    At the same time, remove all ammunition and fuel to the outer housings.
    These outer hulls themselves will protect the ship from torpedoes and shells.
    And the repair will be easy, since damage to simple container bodies is much easier to repair than to complex mechanical and other fillings.
    1. +4
      14 January 2024 09: 30
      And wouldn’t it be easier then to build such ships in the trimaran format?

      For hundreds of years, preference has been given to single-hull ships. The reason is the low strength of trimaran catamarans. Only for light yachts. The weak point is the beams connecting the floats. Unlike single-hull ships, where strength is ensured by hundreds of frames and other elements of the strength set

      A catamaran-trimaran with a displacement of 10000 tons will simply fall apart in a storm
      At the same time, remove all ammunition to the outer buildings

      Guided missiles can account for a third of the cost of a modern ship, tens of billions of rubles

      The most valuable thing on the ship, and you propose to put it under execution
      1. 0
        14 January 2024 09: 42
        A catamaran-trimaran with a displacement of 10 tons will simply fall apart in a storm


        If with rigid inter-body connections, but with flexible and movable connections it will not suffer.
        But if you distribute super-expensive missiles across three hulls, then only a third of them will perish, and two-thirds will remain in any case.
        We need to hold a simple body-screen between the enemy and ourselves, for which a flexible connection is enough. Builders use movable connections to build high-rise buildings in seismic areas and withstand the loads of impacts and vibrations.
        Well, three decks and sides provide additional space for equipment, helicopters, drones, runways, etc.
        1. +1
          14 January 2024 10: 10
          Quote: ycuce234-san
          But if you distribute super-expensive missiles across three hulls, then only a third of them will perish, and two-thirds will remain in any case.

          If we talk about a trimaran, then the floats should not contain anything, neither equipment nor weapons, (except for fuel and electric motors of the propellers), otherwise the floats should be completely foamed, preferably with metal foam. Considering a single-hull design the most durable of all possible is a misconception, theory says that the strongest (with the same weight) is a spatial rod structure in the form of a three-dimensional truss.
          1. +1
            14 January 2024 10: 56
            Quote: agond
            the theory says that the strongest (with the same weight) is a spatial rod structure in the form of a three-dimensional truss.

            Then, for safety, the launch containers can be placed separately on different rods of the farm. Bombs and missiles and even mines will immediately lose their meaning, since they will skip through the farm, occasionally damaging individual elements. The farm ship will turn out to be “transparent” for weapons of destruction - a kind of mirage ship.
  8. +1
    14 January 2024 10: 20
    Reflections on the topic of how a battle cruiser differs from a high-speed battleship would fill a book of considerable thickness; you can’t “shove” them into the size of an article. Thick armor did not help Scharnhorst when he met the Duke of York in December 43.
    1. -3
      14 January 2024 10: 46
      Quote: TermNachTER
      Reflections on how a battle cruiser differs from a fast battleship

      There is a point of view that all WWII-era Capital Ships were LKR, not LK. For simplicity, they were simply renamed LC. The ball was unbalanced, even more so than King.

      Well, as for the glacis, the Ball was simply poorly designed. Considering the history of this project, this is not surprising.
      1. 0
        14 January 2024 12: 48
        I am a supporter of the idea that all battleships of the WWII period, starting with the Hood, were fast battleships, since their armor was a priority over speed. German ships - of the interwar period, "pocket battleships" and the Scharnhorst class - are, to put it mildly, awkward ships. However, "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz" are by no means masterpieces either.
        1. +1
          14 January 2024 13: 25
          Quote: TermNachTER
          I am a supporter of the idea that all battleships of the WWII period, starting with the Hood, were fast battleships, since their armor was a priority over speed.

          Among the Kings, Dakotas and Yamato. It’s different for the French, Italians and Iowans. The Hood's armor was mediocre and stood out compared to the clearly underarmored English LKRs - but not the German LKRs.

          This means something slightly different. Both the small (Dunkirk) and normal (Littorio) battleships that started the last battleship race were not designed to fight in a line. These are cruisers/anti-cruisers. So there is an opinion that battleships ended at Nelson, along with linear tactics. Then only supercruisers were laid out, so to speak.
          1. +2
            14 January 2024 13: 48
            The problem with the Hood was the rush; if it hadn't been for the rush, it would have received a normal power plant and armor. "Nelson" and "Rodney" are generally a misunderstanding that was built for no apparent reason. "Dunkirk" and "Strasbourg" are not the result of the evolution of naval thought, but a reaction to the German Panzerschiffe. Again, the size and performance characteristics of French ships depended on the depths of the naval base and the size of the docks. If there were no such problems, the French would have normal battleships. "Littorio", to put it mildly, is also not a masterpiece. On paper, their performance characteristics look impressive, but in reality it turned out not so much.
            It is clear that during WWII Jutland was not expected.
            1. 0
              14 January 2024 14: 06
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The problem with the Hood was that it was in a hurry; if they hadn’t been in a hurry, it would have received a normal power plant and armor

              Are you talking about its failed modernization? Initially, he received everything he could.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              "Nelson" and "Rodney" are generally a misunderstanding that was built for no apparent reason

              These are the strongest battleships of their time (along with Hood, Colorado and Nagato).
              Quote: TermNachTER
              If there were no such problems, the French would have normal battleships.

              The French had normal battleships. Also 30 knots and also not for combat in line with the Brittany.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              "Littorio", to put it mildly, is also not a masterpiece.

              Littorio is a wonderful ship, but she, too, should not have sailed in lines with the Andrea Doria, but rushed across Our Sea together with Italian racing cruisers. This is what I mean: no linear tactics - no battleship.
              1. 0
                14 January 2024 14: 36
                A modern power plant was planned for the Hood. 8 - 9 boilers of the "Admiralty" type and the corresponding TZA type. Due to the rush, 42 boilers and old fuel pumps were installed. Because of this, the rest of the performance characteristics suffered. "Nelson" is a misunderstanding, even in the mid-20s,
                speed 23 knots, clearly insufficient. even Queen Elizabeth - 25 knots. In the mid-20s they may have been one of the most powerful, but at that time England did not fight with anyone and did not intend to. I think that it would be much more reasonable to do a major modernization of the Tiger, bringing its performance characteristics to the level of the Hood. If it were not for the problems with the shallowness of the naval base and the size of the docks, the French would have built normal battleships, and not the exotic Dunkirk and Richelieu. "Littorio" is excellent "on paper", the battles of 40 - 42 in the Mediterranean, somehow did not show this. Admiral Vayen entered into artillery duels with them with only destroyers and very light cruisers. And nothing, he completed the assigned tasks.
                1. 0
                  14 January 2024 21: 28
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  8 - 9 boilers of the "Admiralty" type and the corresponding TZA type.

                  Apparently, we are talking about the discussed modernization of the late 30s. There was nothing like this when Hood was built.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  "Nelson" is a misunderstanding, even in the mid-20s,
                  speed 23 knots, clearly insufficient. even Queen Elizabeth - 25 kts

                  More than enough for a battleship. He doesn't have to run away from his own line.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  I think that it would be much more reasonable to do a major modernization of the Tiger, bringing its performance characteristics to the level of the Hood.

                  This is impossible. Hood is newer and one and a half times larger. The first ship that was brought to its level was Littorio.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  If not for the problems with the shallowness of the naval base and the size of the docks, the French would have built normal battleships, and not the exotic Dunkirk and Richelieu

                  I see you are not up to date. Shallow waters did not prevent the construction of the 80 thousand ton Normandy. French battleships had very different limitations.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  "Littorio" is beautiful "on paper", the battles of 40 - 42 in the Mediterranean, somehow this was not shown

                  “First of all, I didn’t have gunpowder...” In the case of the Italians, fuel.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  nothing, fulfilled the assigned tasks.

                  As it later turned out, the Germans' greed for fuel for the Italian fleet was one of their worst decisions among their many bad decisions.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Admiral Vayen engaged in artillery duels with them

                  A hussar who is not killed at the age of 30 is not a hussar, but rubbish! Now it’s difficult for us to even imagine the British of those years.
                  1. 0
                    14 January 2024 21: 43
                    The Hood could have had a power plant close to the Nelson. 8 - 9 boilers and corresponding technical equipment, initially, if the control system had not been designed for him in 1916, due to haste.
                    For a battleship, it would also be nice to catch up with those who are running away from it. And from 23 - knots, and even then, in tests, the real one is usually 21 - 22 knots. difficult to do.
                    The dimensions and displacement of the Hood and Tiger are very similar. Everything necessary was also available. Gun turrets and turret compartments could be taken from decommissioned light battlecruisers. Armor belt - from decommissioned battleships.
                    You apparently don’t know how the Normandy and the battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart were built and taken out of the dock. Read at your leisure. Especially how they “pulled” “Jean Bart” out of Saint-Nazaire.
                    Was there enough fuel to leave Taranto and reach Sirte? Was it enough to fight?
                    Admiral Philippe Louis Vayen was a brave commander, but by no means. Cunningham's favorite, his risky actions were clearly calculated.
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2024 21: 58
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      initially, if the SU had not been designed for him in 1916, due to haste.

                      What a strange statement. The power plant is designed before the ship is laid down, and not after. The Nelsons' EU is three times weaker.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      For a battleship, it would also be nice to catch up with those who are running away from it

                      This is why I say that the high-speed LCs of the 30s are supercruisers. The battleship doesn't need to catch up with anyone.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The dimensions and displacement of the Hood and Tiger are very similar

                      41K and 28K respectively.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Turrets with guns and turret compartments could be taken from decommissioned light battlecruisers

                      Vanguard is twice the size of Tiger. Replacing 13,5 inchevki with 15 inchevki is complete nonsense.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      You apparently don’t know how the Normandy and the battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart were built and taken out of the dock. Read at your leisure

                      Of course you know, dear friend. However, Normandy is twice as large.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Was there enough fuel to leave Taranto and reach Sirte? Was it enough to fight?

                      Uh-uh.
                      A bad fight could happen to anyone. Look, ask Bismarck. The Italian problem is somewhat broader.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Cunningham's favorite, his risky actions were clearly calculated.

                      Fighting cruisers with battleships was never a good idea. By the way, Cuningham could just talk about this.
                      1. 0
                        14 January 2024 23: 28
                        Hood was designed in 1916, laid down in 1917, and full construction began in 1918, when the outcome of the war was already clear. In 1918, the British fleet was the largest and most powerful in the world. Where were you hurrying to? For what? Who were you going to fight with? It was possible to suspend construction and modify the project to meet new requirements.
                        The total displacement of the "Tiger" is 35 tons, if you add the boules, there is another 700 - 3 thousand tons on each side. The ship would be rebuilt using the technologies of the 3,5s, which are more advanced. Therefore, it does not necessarily have to have a 30K tonnage, like the Hoodoo.
                        I don’t see any problems in replacing 343 mm. at 380 mm. The width of the Tiger is 4 meters less than the Hood; if you add boules to the Tiger you can get the same width as the Hood.
                        The length of the docks in Brest no longer allowed the entire hull of the battleship to be assembled in the dock. They fixed his nose after leaving the dock. In Saint-Nazaire, the depth at the threshold of the dock was already limiting for the Jean Bart. The depth of the approach channel was the same; it could only be brought out at maximum tide - a couple of days a month. Why do you think the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle displaces only 42 K tons? What prevented you from making a normal AB
                        VI 65 - 70 K tons?
                        Everyone had unsuccessful battles. Only among the Italians, they happened with enviable consistency)))
                        Since Vayen went into battle with a battleship, it means his risk was clearly calculated. I read many British sailors, everyone has the same opinion - brave, tough, but not at all.
                2. +1
                  15 January 2024 12: 24
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  "Nelson" is a misunderstanding, even in the mid-20s,
                  speed 23 knots, clearly insufficient.

                  Normal speed for a ship of the line. The cousins' five standard LCs were generally 21-knot. And this did not stop them from conducting the only USN linear battle in WWII. smile
                  1. +1
                    15 January 2024 12: 30
                    Maybe you can also remind me how that battle ended?))) 21 - knots. they were during construction, as a result of modernization, they had the same 23 knots, only real, and not theoretical, like Nelson.
                    1. +1
                      15 January 2024 13: 21
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Can you also remind me how that fight ended?)))

                      Beating Nishimura's squadron.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      21 - knots they were during construction, as a result of modernization, they had the same 23 knots, only real, and not theoretical, like Nelson.

                      EMNIP, the Big Five did not modernize their power plants at all during the interwar period. Firstly, as the most modern aircraft, they should have been the last to be modernized. Secondly, modernization plans were constantly reduced and canceled due to budget shortages - even 15 million for 1 LK turned out to be too expensive, and cheaper projects did not increase the combat power of the LK.
                      In general, they lasted until the war. And after military modernizations, the speed of the same "Tennessee" dropped from 21,38 knots. up to 20,6 knots
                      1. +1
                        15 January 2024 14: 26
                        So I’m not talking about mattress covers, I’m talking about the modernization of Fuso-type LCs.
            2. 0
              17 January 2024 11: 29
              The problem with the Hood was the rush; if it hadn't been for the rush, it would have received a normal power plant and armor.

              Now, this is interesting, because this is the first time I’ve heard of something like this.
              Regarding the armor, it was planned to further strengthen the deck, for which the TA and part of the secondary battery were removed. But there was nothing planned that would be critically better than what was implemented.
              Regarding the power plant, Hood was already the first of the British battleships to receive thin-tube boilers, which made it possible to greatly save on her weight and dimensions.
              And the “rush” doesn’t add up, the Hood took almost 4 years to build, changes were constantly being made to the project, development began even earlier, there is no talk of any rush, on the contrary, it dragged on.
              And at the same time, they wanted to abandon the construction of Hood in principle (as they abandoned the rest of the series) in favor of new ships, completely developed taking into account the experience of Jutland.
              1. 0
                17 January 2024 12: 40
                The Huda power plant - 24 boilers, was designed in 1916. And the Nelson power plants will have only 9 boilers in five years. And "Queen Elizabeth" in the mid-30s, generally had 8 boilers, instead of 30 initially. If it weren't for the rush, Hood could have gotten a compact KTU and freed up a lot of weight for armor.
                1. 0
                  17 January 2024 14: 17
                  The Huda power plant - 24 boilers, was designed in 1916. And the Nelson power plants will only have 9 boilers in five years

                  Then it turns out that the amers were in a hurry, since 356 mm guns were installed in Tennessee instead of 406 mm.
                  One could claim that they were “in a hurry” if these new boilers were available in the near future, and were not developed five years later for another, new ship
                  1. 0
                    17 January 2024 16: 23
                    Quote: YellowToad
                    Then it turns out that the amers were in a hurry, since 356 mm guns were installed in Tennessee instead of 406 mm.

                    This is not a very good example. There is a point of view that the 16" were already available. Their appearance on ships was delayed by the usual political games and chaos in America. Otherwise, Tennessee, and not Nagato, would have become the first 16" LK, similarly, Nevada, and not Lisa, would have become the first super battleship, Well, the Dreadnought class would be the Caroline class, respectively.
                  2. 0
                    17 January 2024 19: 42
                    "Hood" was laid down in 1917, and construction actually began in 1918, when the outcome of the war was already clear. Where were you hurrying to? He was already late for WWII; WWII is still 18 years away. What would happen if the ship was redesigned and rebuilt, and completed around 1930? Nothing would have happened, but in 1939, England would have had a normal ship, and not an old man who came from WWII.
                    1. 0
                      17 January 2024 22: 12
                      There's an increase in the national debt, an empty budget, and Washington making your proposal impossible. Actually, Nelsons were not planned to be built, instead there should have been G3, and then N3. And this is literally what you are talking about - new ships, very good ones, although there were nuances here too.
                      Actually, that’s why they abandoned the construction of the rest of the series. Hood was built first in case the Germans managed to finish building one of the Mackensens, and after the end of WWII due to the very high readiness of the ship, and objectively, to put it mildly, not bad.
                      By the way, the dates don’t add up - Hood was laid down in September 1916, and launched in August 1918
                      Well, Hood wasn’t exactly an old man; if he had gone through modernization, he would have been not only significantly worse than Vanguard, mainly in details. But modernization was not enough for Hood, as was luck
                      1. 0
                        18 January 2024 00: 07
                        "Hood" was laid down before Washington and its VI was already taken into account in the agreement, so no one interfered with its construction. The sharp drop in defense spending came later. Did you find the money to build the Nelsons?
                      2. 0
                        18 January 2024 06: 02
                        so no one bothered to build it

                        They interfered - in fact, the opponents seriously insisted on cutting up the already finished Hood, and if it had remained unfinished, it would have surely suffered the same fate as the rest of the unfinished ones, no one would have allowed it to be built further. And it’s complete nonsense to build such a ship, I’ll explain once again that if it weren’t for Washington, the British would have built new LCRs. But how could anyone in 1920 know that Washington would turn out
                        Did you find the money to build the Nelsons?

                        Compare the construction of two stripped-down Nelsons and a program of 16 battleships like the States and Japan
                        Parliament and the Admiralty were occupied by people with brains, not stupid boots

                        You are now trying to accuse people of lacking the gift of foresight and the fact that instead of tormenting one ship for 10 years, they decided to immediately build new ones
                      3. 0
                        18 January 2024 07: 57
                        How are these new ones better than the Hood? The British understood the disadvantages of their Nelsons even at the design and construction stage. It’s just that the Washington Treaty and the technology of that time did not allow us to build something else.
                      4. 0
                        18 January 2024 08: 31
                        The Nelsons turned out this way because of the need to squeeze them into 35 thousand tons of displacement, precisely because of Washington. But for the G3, the displacement limit was much higher and was limited only by the Suez Canal. Therefore, the ship would have turned out to have armor at Nelson’s level (and in some ways even better), with less problematic turrets, with the same 9 16 inch guns, but at the same time all at 31-32 knots of speed. This is a battle cruiser
                        The next ones were supposed to be the N3 battleships. And although the speed would be low (23 knots), the thickness of the armor would increase, and the caliber of the guns (with the same number) would reach 457 mm
                      5. 0
                        18 January 2024 12: 45
                        All the vicissitudes of designing and building Nelsons are described in the book and are known to me. And the British understood even at the design stage that even “on paper” they turned out to be inferior. That’s what I’m saying: if thinking people sat in Parliament and the Admiralty, and not “felt boots” in top hats and admiral’s caps, then “Hood” would have been built normal, and not what happened. And "Nelson" and "Rodney" would not have been built at all.
                      6. 0
                        18 January 2024 14: 19
                        All the vicissitudes of the design and construction of Nelsons are described in the book and are known to me

                        It seems not everyone, since you say so
                        And the fact that even “on paper” they turned out to be inferior

                        What is Nelson's inferiority? The Britons got the opportunity to build their own 16-inch battleships, albeit within a limited limit, and this situation was dictated by the agreement. And it was much better with him - the ratio of 2 Nelson versus 3 Colorado and 2 Nagato looks better than 4 G3 and 4 N3 versus 32 new battleships of Japan and the USA (even despite the characteristics)
                        That’s what I’m saying: if only thinking people sat in parliament and the Admiralty, and not “felt boots” in top hats and admiral’s caps

                        You are not talking about this, you are talking about the fact that there should be people sitting there who know that Washington will be concluded, that the Nelson guns will be unsuccessful, that the war will begin only in 20 years, and who know how it will be fought. In general, probably people from the future
                        "Hood" would have been built normal, not what happened

                        "Normal" Hood did not allow Washington to be built. And yes, what is “abnormal” about the real Hood?
                        And "Nelson" and "Rodney" would not have been built at all.

                        And we would have sat with 13 battleships instead of 15. Definitely a better deal
                      7. 0
                        18 January 2024 19: 46
                        The Britons had 13 with a main gun of 380 mm. and at least two more with a 343-mm main gun, but how many did the rest have?
                        In fact, people in the General Staff and Intelligence Directorate are paid precisely to plan where, when and with whom there will be a war.
                        The Nelsons had low speed, limited firing angles for the main battery, and very weak bow armor. They were lucky that this booking was never truly "verified".
                      8. 0
                        18 January 2024 20: 16
                        These two (actually four) were battleships of the Iron Duke type, which were preserved just while the Nelsons were being built, and after London 1930 they were written off like their predecessors. They were becoming obsolete, and a pair of Nelsons were still better than a pair of Dukes.
                        In fact, people in the General Staff and Intelligence Directorate are paid precisely to plan where, when and with whom there will be a war.

                        But not twenty years in advance! Who in 1916 could have said what, when and where the next world war would be?
                        Nelsons had low speed

                        Enough to interact with Rivenges, in a classic linear battle they would have to interact with them. Of course, this does not fully justify them, but speed had to be sacrificed in order to preserve other characteristics. Of course, it was possible to build a couple more Rinauns with a new caliber, but Jutland showed that this was a so-so idea
                        limited firing angles of the main battery

                        I guess it's aft? Although this is a drawback, I would not call it critical
                        weak bow armor

                        It wasn't just the Nelsons who were guilty of this. And again, it is better to sacrifice the armor of the bow than to weaken the main armor belt.
                        And at the same time, the Nelsons had a reserve for modernization, and it made it possible to increase the speed (which was intended during the major modernization, up to 25 knots), and armor the nose, and correct deficiencies in the armor belt, and equip it with a new secondary gun.
                        But just like in the case of Hood, they delayed it, when the Japanese managed to modernize plus or minus all the battleships, the British only managed 4. This is where you can really make a claim to the government and the treasury
                      9. 0
                        18 January 2024 23: 51
                        in addition to the four Iron Dukes, there was also a Tiger, which in 1932 was stupidly written off instead of being modernized.
                        The General Staff must think and calculate, and not stupidly, with both hands, support the “10 years” rule.
                        And what, did they interact with the Rivenges during WWII?
                        Impossibility of maintaining art. fire in the stern, I consider it a very significant drawback. As you yourself said, anything can happen and the designers were obliged to foresee such an option. Another thing is that they simply had no other options.
                        Regarding the fact that you can sacrifice the armor protection of the bow, I would advise you to talk with the survivors of the Bismarck. It's a pity, they're all already dead.
                        The dimensions of the hull and, accordingly, the internal volumes on the Nelsons, I think, no longer allowed serious upgrades. And with the entry into service of the “kings”, this no longer made sense.
                      10. 0
                        19 January 2024 07: 23
                        Tiger

                        Again, a contract. Or do you think that the Admiralty happily wrote it off?
                        As a fast ship in WWII, the Tiger would have been a useful ship, but the main battery was already outdated in the 20s (if it was not already outdated), which limited the possibilities of modernization, and the armor protection was weaker than desired. No matter how much you want to, you can’t make Tiger out of Hood
                        The General Staff must think and calculate, and not stupidly, with both hands, support the “10 years” rule.

                        So he thought and calculated how G3 would confront Amagi and Lexington. And then Washington fell
                        And what, did they interact with the Rivenges during WWII?

                        Even Hood interacted with the Rivenges. And it’s not like there were many linear battles between the KVMF and American or Japanese battleships.
                        Impossibility of maintaining art. fire in the stern, I consider it a very significant drawback

                        OK. Are we going to cut the armored belt or the main battery?
                        It may not be clear, but Nelson is not Bismarck. You either cram it into 35 tons, or sit without a battleship. And it’s better not to be able to fire in the stern than to explode from a sneeze
                        Regarding the fact that you can sacrifice the armor protection of the bow, I would advise you to talk with the survivors of the Bismarck.

                        Even if Bismarck had an armored nose, it would not have helped him. And again, you want to sacrifice a few inches of thickness in the armor belt in favor of the nose, are you sure this is a good idea?
                        The dimensions of the hull and, accordingly, the internal volumes on the Nelsons, I think, no longer allowed serious upgrades.

                        It’s strange that the “felt boots” from the Admiralty did not agree with you, and they wanted to change the main armor belt and increase the speed, change the secondary guns, anti-aircraft guns and wheelhouse and screw on the catapult. Even the heavily overloaded Hood was planned for a major modernization (and the plans were no less ambitious)
                        And with the entry into service of the “kings”, this no longer made sense

                        Why else? I thought 7 battleships were better than 5
                      11. 0
                        19 January 2024 13: 20
                        Seven battleships are good when they are new and of the same type. If there are two, the speed is different, the main battery ballistics are different, the armor is different. How will they interact?
                        I believe that from the Tiger, through deep modernization, it was possible to make a ship with performance characteristics close to the Hood. And anything is better than “Ripas” and “Rinaun”.
                        It was possible to think after Washington. Moreover, you don’t have to be some kind of outstanding strategist. Almost everyone who was a captain or rear admiral in the early 20s joined the fleet at the beginning of the 15th century and began serving on squadron battleships and armored cruisers. And WWI was already met on battleships and battlecruisers. They didn’t understand that in XNUMX years everything would be different?
                        Either 35 thousand tons or sit without LC. The answer is obvious - instead of a defective battleship, build what is needed. For a third of the cost of the Nelson, it was possible to make the deepest modernization of the Tiger. Leaving only the keel and bottom frame from the old ship.
                        The Bismarck is just as awkward a ship as the Nelsons. Calling it one of the best WWII battleships is stupid. This was invented by Hitler's propagandists.
                      12. 0
                        19 January 2024 15: 29
                        Seven battleships are good when they are new and of the same type. If there are two, the speed is different, the main battery ballistics are different, the armor is different. How will they interact?

                        They don’t have to act together, and in British conditions it’s impossible. Modernized Nelsons could operate in the Mediterranean Sea together with Queen Elizabeths
                        I believe that from the Tiger, through deep modernization, it was possible to make a ship with performance characteristics

                        I saw it, but I don’t see any reason why it’s real.
                        if you add boules, there will be another 3 - 3,5 thousand tons on each side

                        Wow, what kind of boules are these supposed to be? Boules were installed on Queen Elizabeth between the wars; not nearly as much displacement was added there
                        I don’t see any problems in replacing 343 mm. at 380 mm. The width of the Tiger is 4 meters less than the Hood; if you add boules to the Tiger you can get the same width as the Hood.

                        You know in Kursk that the width of the body and the width of the boules are different things? Your armor belt prevents you from pushing the towers. Where to store the shells? In boules? What about the length? The tower will be larger; it simply won’t fit into the place of the old tower. Barbettes need to be changed. So the displacement will also jump significantly. The increase in caliber is VERY significant, and I don’t know any examples of this. Also, you don’t need to forget about the power plant, you don’t have much room left for it. It would have been easier to build a new ship.
                        It was possible to think after Washington

                        We thought. Nelson was built as a response to Nagato and Colorado, at that time it was a logical and even necessary step. You look at this in retrospect, it’s easy for you to judge
                        instead of a damaged battleship

                        For some reason the British did not consider the Nelsons to be flawed. They called them ugly sisters, but not defective ones. And how can you call your most powerful battleship defective?
                        The Bismarck is just as awkward a ship as the Nelsons. Calling it one of the best WWII battleships is stupid.

                        I don’t argue, but I gave the example of Bismarck as a ship with virtually no displacement limitation.
                      13. 0
                        19 January 2024 19: 15
                        With the Queen Elizabeth they are also different in terms of main battery ballistics, speed, and armor.
                        "Tiger" is a fairly long ship, so the buoys are also long. Accordingly, 3 - 3,5 thousand tons will be added to the 35 thousand tons that were there. Not so much.
                        The turret barbettes will have to be changed; the hull width is sufficient. If we replace 24 Jarrow boilers with 8 Admiralty boilers, a lot of weight and volume and l/s are freed up for boiler maintenance. The Tiger's boilers are still coal.
                        An Englishman on some specialized website posted quite detailed calculations with drawings of what could be altered and how. Yes, of course it wasn’t quite “Hood”, but close enough. But it’s better, “Repalsa”, “Rinauna”, because the main belt was supposed to be 300 mm.
                        The Amers and Japanese had all LCs with 356 mm. GK. And the British have everything with 380 mm. Who has more broadside weight? Two non-serial LCs with main gun 406 - mm. did the situation change much?
                        They may not have said this openly, but in the memoirs of many officers of the interwar period and WWII, this is stated quite clearly.
                      14. 0
                        19 January 2024 23: 31
                        With the Queen Elizabeth they are also different in terms of main battery ballistics, speed, and armor.

                        How does this prevent them from acting together? For transport workers, it doesn’t really matter what shells they load. Ballistics are also not a problem; you are not going to direct fire from one ship to the entire formation. In the Battle of Jutland, the British had 6 different types of battleship guns, but nothing, they managed
                        And in terms of speed, I wrote that the Nelsons were supposed to increase it and the values ​​would be close.
                        "Tiger" is a fairly long ship, so the buoys are also long.

                        The boules do not go from bow to stern, but from and to the end towers. And the difference in length between Tiger and Queen Elizabeth is not that big
                        The turret barbettes will have to be changed; the hull width is sufficient.

                        There are already details here, I cannot confirm or deny this. And here you need to look at the thickness of the towers. But I have questions about how to fit in a second elevated tower
                        If we replace 24 Jarrow boilers with 8 Admiralty boilers, a lot of weight and volume and l/s are freed up for boiler maintenance. The Tiger's boilers are still coal.

                        We need to seriously increase the power of the power plant, because... the boules and additional displacement consumed a fair amount of speed.
                        And in any case, no more than one compartment will be “freed up”. You don’t think that the old and new boilers will be the same size, do you? That's why there are much fewer new ones, because they are much larger
                        The Tiger's boilers are still coal.

                        Well, here's another problem.
                        An Englishman on some specialized website posted quite detailed calculations with drawings of what could be altered and how.

                        I wouldn't consider this as a serious source. You can dream up your imagination, but I wouldn’t say that this is how it should be.
                        The Amers and Japanese had all LCs with 356 mm

                        What about Colorado? And Nagato?
                        The British have everything with 380 mm. Who has more broadside weight?

                        Don’t you want to take into account that the Americans have 10-12 guns, and the Japanese have 8-12?
                        And in the case of the Americans, they were also updated. Are you sure that the British have the advantage of a broadside?
                        Two non-serial LCs with main gun 406 - mm. did the situation change much?

                        “Serial” is of little use in relation to battleships.
                        And this, at a minimum, is politics - they have big guns, we don’t. Well, not only politics
                        They may not have said this openly, but in the memoirs of many officers of the interwar period and WWII, this is stated quite clearly.

                        Nelsons were problematic in terms of reliability. There were questions regarding the booking. The technical condition was deplorable - Rodney was actually drowning at the pier at the end of the war.
                        Problematic, deprived of modernization (this is part of the problem), hence a significant amount of criticism
                      15. 0
                        20 January 2024 12: 03
                        Ballistics are of great importance. Two different artillery systems have completely different parameters. When the Bismarck was sunk, Tovey divided his battleships, giving the Rodney the opportunity to fire on its own, because the ballistics of the guns were different and the flaghart could not organize squadron fire.
                        "Tiger" is 31 m longer than "Queen Elizabeth", considering that the length of "Lizka" is 180 m. The advantage is more than significant. Accordingly, the sizes of the boules will be proportional.
                        I read an Englishman who used calculations on the drawings to prove that everything is possible. He considered the shift of the “Y” turret closer to the midsection, towards the “X” turret, to be a significant problem. Accordingly, tower “X” should be raised on a barbette, making it elevated. But due to this, the length of the main power supply is significantly reduced. Therefore, the weight of the armor will practically not increase.
                        If we replace 42 coal boilers with 8 liquid fuel boilers, then in addition to the weight of the boilers themselves, we save on the weight of steam pipes, feed water pipes, and chimneys. Three pipes are not needed; you can put them into two, or if you really want, into one. Not to mention the savings for the crew. There were about 200 people on the Tiger alone.
                        Do you seriously believe in a war between England and the USA?))) Yes, they had misunderstandings, but fighting is funny. Japanese LKs have 8 X 356 mm in a side salvo. and the British have 8, only 380 mm. Who has more? Let's take a hypothetical situation, two "Nagato" against 3 - 4 "R" or "Queen", who has better chances? From my point of view, the result is obvious.
                        Politics is for politicians. And admirals must operate with the weight of the broadside, firing range, etc. Moreover, the British themselves considered their 406 mm. Mk. 1, not very successful. The main drawback is the “light projectile - high speed” scheme, which turned out to be completely wrong, but cannot be changed.
                        Well, we have already talked about various technical problems, there is no point in repeating them.
                      16. 0
                        20 January 2024 14: 51
                        Ballistics are of great importance. Two different artillery systems have completely different parameters

                        Come on
                        When the Bismarck was sunk, Tovey divided his battleships, giving the Rodney the opportunity to fire on its own, because the ballistics of the guns were different and the flaghart could not organize squadron fire.

                        Tovey separated Rodney because he could not maintain (or it was very difficult) the formation with King due to damage to the nasal tip, so he went for repairs
                        Beatty was not hampered by the presence of New Zealand and Indefatigable with 305 mm, just as Hipper was not hampered by two calibers. Hood and Prince of Wells also had no problems interacting
                        "Tiger" is 31 m longer than "Queen Elizabeth", taking into account that the length of "Lizka" is 180 m.

                        Why should we count Queen Elizabeth as 180m long if she is 16m longer?
                        He considered the shift of the “Y” turret closer to the midsection, towards the “X” turret, to be a significant problem. Accordingly, tower “X” should be raised on a barbette, making it elevated.

                        Tower "X" is already elevated, although I'm not sure if it's high enough. The question is different: Where will you put the engine rooms? Or is the shift not that significant? No specifics
                        If we replace 42 coal boilers with 8 liquid fuel boilers, then in addition to the weight of the boilers themselves, we save on the weight of steam pipes, feed water pipes, and chimneys.

                        You replace 42 (actually 39) small boilers with 8 large ones. And considering that you need to increase the power of the power plant at least to maintain speed, it is unlikely that you will be able to save much. And yes, all of the above is needed for oil boilers, and here again the question is how significant the savings will be
                        Do you seriously believe in a war between England and the USA?)))

                        There definitely was a confrontation, and in the 20s the American fleet was considered at least as a rival
                        Japanese LKs have 8 X 356 mm in a side salvo

                        Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro - 12 mm guns. Kongo, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei - battlecruisers with higher speed and 356 mm guns
                        Let's take a hypothetical situation, two "Nagato" against 3 - 4 "R" or "Queen", who has better chances? From my point of view, the result is obvious.

                        Of course, with an overall one and a half times numerical advantage
                        Politics is for politicians. And admirals must operate with the weight of the broadside, firing range, etc.

                        And also the budget and one, then two, and then three political pieces of paper
                        Moreover, the British themselves considered their 406 mm. Mk. 1, not very successful.

                        What turned out to be after the fact, because on paper it turned out much better.
                        The main drawback is the “light projectile - high speed” scheme, which turned out to be completely wrong, but cannot be changed.

                        It was not the concept that was wrong, but its use while maintaining the wire structure of the barrel and its insufficient length
                      17. 0
                        20 January 2024 18: 23
                        Even before the start of the battle, "Rodney" had a speed of 19 knots. That's why it went to the USA for repairs. Tovey separated him so that he could shoot himself, because the flagart could not direct the fire of two different artillery systems.
                        The boiler rooms and engine rooms were significantly reduced in size; I don’t remember how the Englishman planned to assemble the towers. But I don’t see any global problems. It could fit.
                        Are you seriously considering an artillery duel "Fuso" against the British 15 inch? In my opinion, Jutland proved everything. The holes in German battleships are more than convincing. I don’t even consider the fight between “Congo” and “Queen Elizabeth” even theoretically. For a 380 mm projectile. his GP 203 - mm., nothing at all. Any hit, with the exception of the extremities, is fatal.
                        If the situation of 2 “Nagato” against 3 - 4 British does not suit you, then I can’t help you))) in the late 20s, early 30s, the Germans did not have a fleet, the Italians were in permanent repair. And even before 1935, the British and Italians did not have much “friction”. Having such a situation in Europe, which prevented the British from transferring 3 - 4 types of “R”, a couple of “Queens” and a couple of “Repulse” to the Far East. I think the outcome of the battle is immediately clear. The real enemy is only two "nagato".
                        And the budget was enough “for the eyes”, if you did not build “Nelsons” - you saved 13 million ft at once. Art. If others didn't care about pieces of paper, why didn't the British?
                        could they? Moreover, they have never been modest in the international arena.
                        In the “light projectile - high speed” scheme, the Britons were already “burnt”, however, so were other fleets. They are not alone here. So, it’s not worth saying that they wanted the best, but it turned out as always. They understood what they would get as a result. And the outdated wire winding only made the situation worse. But it was clear from the very beginning. This, by the way, is written about in the book, in the section on choosing main battery artillery.
                      18. 0
                        20 January 2024 19: 40
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Tovey separated him so that he could shoot himself, because the flagart could not direct the fire of two different artillery systems.

                        Don't talk nonsense... it hurts.
                        Read at least one textbook on organizing fire control of a ship and formation (for example, Rimsky-Korsakov), and then bring the light of knowledge to the masses...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I think the outcome of the battle is immediately clear. The real enemy is only two "nagato".

                        And also a few torpedo SRTs and many, many EMs. Well, AB is over the horizon.
                      19. 0
                        20 January 2024 22: 26
                        Is it possible without a textbook, in a nutshell, so to speak, condescending to the intellect?))) in a simple way. Otherwise, I can give you the British Navy instructions on organizing the JSC, 1940. True, they are in English.
                        How many aircraft carriers were there in the Imperial Navy at the end of the 20s? One or two?)))
                        A lot - a lot of EM? The first “fubuki” appeared at the end of the 20s and there were only a few of them. But what came before them was so-so.
                        How can I imagine "Furutaka" launching a torpedo attack on the wake column of British airborne missiles, tears in my eyes - how long will she survive?)))
                      20. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 15
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is it possible without a textbook, in a nutshell, so to speak, condescending to the intellect?))) in a simple way.

                        You can... An example from life.
                        Signals from "Hood" to "PoU" on the morning of May 24 in sight of the enemy:
                        - at 0549 G.S.B./337/L1 was raised (fire on the first target on the left, azimuth 337°, i.e. on “Eugen”);
                        - at 0550/0551 G.I.C. raised (independent fire control);
                        - at 0552 the G.O.B.1 signal was raised (cancellation of the previous one, changing the target one to the right, i.e. transferring fire to the Bismarck).
                        More flagart commander E.H.G. Gregson did not interfere in controlling the fire of the formation's ships: Moultrie and McMoulen fired on their own.
                        Or do you imagine the picture in some other way?

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Otherwise, I can give you the British Navy instructions on organizing a joint stock company, 1940.

                        Let's...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        True, they are in English.

                        Do you think that you are the only literate one here... wink

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How many aircraft carriers were there in the Imperial Navy at the end of the 20s? One or two?)))

                        It seems like two... What about the British? :)

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        A lot - a lot of EM? The first “fubuki” appeared at the end of the 20s and there were only a few of them. But what came before them was so-so.

                        But they were? Didn't evaporate somewhere...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How can I imagine "Furutaka" launching a torpedo attack on the wake column of British airborne missiles, tears in my eyes - how long will she survive?)))

                        Just imagine “Mioko”, it will become easier.... :)
                      21. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 31
                        We actually spoke for "King George" and "Rodney". After the Hood sank, it is quite difficult to talk about what Holland's flagart did.
                        I'll look for the instructions, they're on my remote disk. Then I’ll post the link where I got them from.
                        If we consider the Jose to be a full-fledged aircraft carrier, then two. Could they greatly influence the outcome of the battle?
                        In 1928, "Fubuki" entered service, so there could not be many of them.
                        I can also imagine “Takao” what is changing? Their armor is against 15 - dm. it does not matter. Besides, I don’t think the British commander came with only battleships. I think he would have grabbed the TKR too.
                      22. 0
                        21 January 2024 13: 35
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We actually spoke for "King George" and "Rodney".

                        In this particular case, it is not fundamental: the logic of actions is the same...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        After the Hood sank, it is quite difficult to talk about what Holland's flagart did.

                        Why is it so complicated? There is a report from Leach, where the signals are indicated, the last signal regarding the fire control of the formation (executive “5” - “Open fire”) was given at 05:52.30.
                        Further, there were only two maneuvering signals from the flagship.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I'll look for the instructions, they're on my remote disk. Then I’ll post the link where I got them from.

                        Thank you.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If we consider the Jose to be a full-fledged aircraft carrier, then two. Could they greatly influence the outcome of the battle?

                        Akagi and Kaga entered service in 27-28.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I think he would have taken the TKR too.

                        All nine? :)
                      23. 0
                        21 January 2024 00: 42
                        Even before the start of the battle, "Rodney" had a speed of 19 knots. That's why it went to the USA for repairs.

                        It's not a matter of speed, but the fact that Rodney couldn't keep a steady course due to his damaged nose.
                        The flagart could not direct the fire of two different artillery systems.

                        In other cases there were no problems
                        The boiler rooms and engine rooms were significantly reduced in size; I don’t remember how the Englishman planned to assemble the towers.

                        Forget about that Englishman, he can put whatever he wants, but this is never a source (you didn’t even cite it, you just mention it)
                        Are you seriously considering an artillery duel "Fuso" against the British 15 inch?

                        No damn it, Fuso will bring rice from Korea
                        The holes in German battleships are more than convincing.

                        That’s why I see a lot of sunk German armored vehicles. Why an example?
                        in the late 20s, early 30s, the Germans did not have a fleet, the Italians were in permanent repair. And even before 1935, the British and Italians did not have much “friction”.

                        What am I talking about? Who do you need battlecruisers against? A couple of battleships would be more useful, wouldn’t they?
                        And the budget was enough "for the eyes"

                        It was so much for my eyes in the early 20s that I just can’t. It’s as if there was no WWII and the national debt did not increase 10 times. And how much money there was in the 30s,
                        the rebellion in Invergordon had already begun, because the budget was enough for the eyes
                        If others didn't care about pieces of paper, why didn't the British?
                        could they?

                        Probably because they were among the first to insist on these pieces of paper? Why was there a conclusion then?
                        In the “light projectile - high speed” scheme, the Britons were already “burnt”, however, so were other fleets.

                        Don’t confuse one with the other, this concept was used by the British for the first time on LK guns.
                        They understood what they would get as a result.

                        -Henry, let's design a new disgusting weapon!
                        -Good idea, Thomas!
                        written in the book

                        What kind of book is this, can you tell me?
                      24. 0
                        21 January 2024 13: 18
                        Just look at how many German LKs remained afloat after Jutland. And how long were they repaired? The picture will play with completely different colors))) the topic of how many sailors were sunk and how many died, the Germans were “staggering” immediately after Jutland, but there is a little bit of untruth there.
                        Many insisted on “papers”, but everyone looked for their own benefit in them.
                        The initiators were actually the Americans. Are the English the most honest?)))
                        The Invergordon riot took place in 1932, and we're talking mainly in the mid-to-late 20s, when there was still enough money. Yes, and on the Nelsons it was possible to save 13 million ft. Art.
                        The British tested the concept of “light projectile - high speed” at 12 dm. They realized the mistake and released only a few of those guns. Why they repeated this “Nelson” I myself am interested. They returned back on the Kings.
                        On remote disks I will look for instructions on AO and a book by a British author on Nelsons. From my point of view, it’s quite good, definitely better than the “Marine Collection”.
                      25. 0
                        21 January 2024 16: 25
                        Just look at how many German LKs remained afloat after Jutland. And how long were they repaired?

                        And I always thought that a heavily damaged ship is better than a sunken one. But that's not the point. Why the example of the German fleet? Even without it, I understand that the British 15" guns can make holes. But nevertheless, the Japanese will put Fuso against the British, and as if Fuso will also shoot
                        The initiators were actually the Americans. Are the English the most honest?)))

                        Let's just say it wasn't overused. Basically, the excess was in displacement (which can be said about everyone), but without any extreme excesses. Because even though the Americans proposed, the British, like no one else, stoked for restrictions
                        The Invergordon riot took place in 1932, and we're talking mainly in the mid-to-late 20s, when there was still enough money.

                        Here, too, the concept is relative. And where are you going to spend the money? Once again, I will repeat the modernization of Tiger in place of the Nelsons - the most crazy idea
                        The British tested the concept of “light projectile - high speed” at 12 dm.

                        Maybe you should still try checking? You can just compare the mass of shells. For you will be surprised, but 45 caliber and 50 caliber used the same shells. And the new 50 caliber was never about a “light projectile”
                        This, by the way, is written about in the book, in the section on choosing main battery artillery.

                        I'm more interested in this moment
                      26. 0
                        21 January 2024 16: 59
                        Heavily damaged - better than sunk. But only if, after a couple of weeks, it goes back into battle, it will be seriously damaged, as if sunk, because it will not be back for another half a year, or even a year. And the British, after a couple of weeks, already had enough LKs and battle cruisers. But the Germans no longer climbed further than the Heligoland Bay.
                        The British, in fact, did not need Washington; they already have the largest fleet in the world. We had to scrap the spikes, which had served for a little over ten years. Twelve inch shells can be very different. By length, by weight. Charging chambers of the same calibers can differ significantly in volume. Well, it’s clear that the ballistics of the 40 caliber and 52 caliber guns are completely different.
                        I’ll look for the book; I’ve accumulated a lot of stuff on three external drives over a quarter of a century. I want to systematize everything and put it on one disk, but I can’t get around to it.
                      27. 0
                        21 January 2024 18: 29
                        Heavily damaged - better than sunk. But only if, after a couple of weeks, it goes back into battle, it will be seriously damaged, as if sunk, because it will not be back for another half a year, or even a year. And the British, after a couple of weeks, already had enough LKs and battle cruisers. But the Germans no longer climbed further than the Heligoland Bay.

                        This is certainly very interesting, but how does this prevent Fuso from engaging in battle with Queen Elizabeth?
                        Twelve inch shells can be very different. By length, by weight.

                        I tell you this, the British 12" 45 caliber and 12" 50 caliber used the same shells. But the charge really increased, but the problem was that it did not have time to burn out completely (and each time differently), which is why the 50 caliber gun had poor accuracy + the survivability of the long barrel (with a wire construction, we are talking about British ones) was lower
                        The British, in fact, did not need Washington; they already have the largest fleet in the world.

                        Yeah, and then the Japanese began their 8-8 program, and similarly the Americans began building 16 battleships. And the British have a lot of loans, an empty budget, a damaged economy and only Hood in completion. Later, 4 G3s were developed and laid down, and they were to be followed by N3s (I already said that). Moreover, all this is also belated.
                        And therefore, oddly enough, the negotiations led to more favorable conditions for the British, because they sacrificed their outdated ships and new ones that had just begun to be built, and the Americans and Japanese sacrificed a large number of those actively under construction (and similarly their old ones)
                      28. 0
                        21 January 2024 19: 43
                        Would the Japanese shipbuilding (and not only shipbuilding) industry be capable of 8 + 8? I highly doubt it. And the amers with their 16 LK and LinKR are simply out of principle, why are we worse? Although they could build it.
                        Fuso can enter into battle only with their armor, not for the British 15-dm.
                        There are 300 mm of them. - this is exactly the same as the German LKs at Jutland.
                      29. 0
                        22 January 2024 16: 44
                        Would the Japanese shipbuilding (and not only shipbuilding) industry be capable of 8 + 8? I highly doubt it.

                        Nevertheless, the program was approved, the first half of the ships were actively being built, another 8 were being prepared for laying
                        And the amers with their 16 LK and LinKR are simply out of principle, why are we worse? Although they could build it.

                        Well, it’s kind of the other way around - the Japanese expanded their program in response to the American
                        Fuso can enter into battle only with their armor, not for the British 15-dm.

                        If they can, that means we need battleships that will engage them in battle.
                      30. 0
                        19 January 2024 15: 46
                        By the way, you have something interesting:
                        The dimensions of the hull and, accordingly, the internal volumes on the Nelsons, I think, no longer allowed serious upgrades.

                        I believe that from the Tiger, through deep modernization, it was possible to make a ship with performance characteristics close to the Hood.

                        And this is considering that Nelson is larger. Don't you think it's strange?
                      31. 0
                        19 January 2024 19: 24
                        I can't find it. "Tiger" could and should be thoroughly modernized in the late 20s, early 30s. "Huda" had to be immediately redesigned and made normal. When in the mid-30s, the time came to overhaul and modernize the Nelson and Rodney, things were heading towards war and putting the battleship out of action for 3 - 3,5 years, the British simply did not take the risk. Right or wrong, I don’t know.
                      32. 0
                        19 January 2024 23: 44
                        I can't find it. "Tiger" could and should be thoroughly modernized in the late 20s, early 30s.

                        From what you propose, I conclude that it is easier to build a new ship
                        "Huda" had to be immediately redesigned and made normal.

                        They redesigned it, so it turned out to be G3, but the infection won’t allow us to build it. And you still haven’t answered what’s “abnormal” about Hood
                        to disable the battleship for 3 - 3,5 years, the British simply did not dare

                        Before the war they would have taken the risk, but they didn’t have time. And after that there were no resources and opportunities, and battleships were needed. They only held on to the modernization of Hood until the last, but Hood was terribly unlucky
                      33. 0
                        20 January 2024 12: 15
                        It was possible to build something instead of the Tiger, but for this you need to have a ready-made project and, secondly, the Washington Treaty. But the Tiger already existed, in the status of a training ship. It can be easily converted, without regard to the Treaty. And in 1936, when Japan withdrew from the treaty, everyone was presented with a fait accompli.
                        It was impossible to build "G - 3" because its tonnage is occupied by "Hood". There is no "Hood" - there is tonnage for construction.
                        The discrepancy between the Hood, built according to the 1916 project, and the requirements of 1941 is obvious. Why repeat obvious things? Take any book about Hood, go to the “Project Disadvantages” section.
                        I don’t really believe that 20 years ago, they couldn’t find 2-3 years for capital and modernization. Found for "Warspite", "Queen Elizabeth" and "Vengard". But you didn’t find it here?
                      34. 0
                        20 January 2024 15: 16
                        It was possible to build something instead of the Tiger, but for this you need to have a ready-made project and, secondly, the Washington Treaty.

                        The Washington Treaty limited the displacement to 35 tons, caliber 000 mm, and the number of ships to two. Everything else was not limited, and you could build anything (within limitations, of course)
                        And there were plans (at least considered) to build a fast ship by reducing the caliber of the main battery by 1 inch. And such ships would have been cheaper, better, there would have been two of them, and building them would have been cheaper and easier than torturing Tiger.
                        Why did you choose the Nelsons? Because it was the most logical step - our own 16 "battleships in response to enemy battleships with the same caliber. There were a lot of current ships at that time to counter any other fleet. And no one knew that the restrictions would end (and even then not completely) only in 1936. Roughly speaking, this can be described: “We were preparing for war tomorrow, we would be preparing for war the day after tomorrow tomorrow.” And this is logical and justified than building ships to confront those who are not even in our thoughts
                        It was impossible to build "G - 3" because its tonnage is occupied by "Hood". There is no "Hood" - there is tonnage for construction.

                        Another blunder. Washington was not about tonnage, but about numbers. Hood was the exception, and within the exception were Mutsu and the third Colorado. G-3 could not be built for the same reason that Amagi, Tosa, Kii, Lexington, Washington, South Dakota and N3 could not be built. Even if the British had written off their entire fleet (which, by the way, was prohibited; the ship could only be written off after 21 years of service), they still would not have been able to build anything more than two Nelsons
                        Take any book about Hood, go to the “Project Disadvantages” section.

                        I am well aware of Hood's shortcomings, and I assure you that Tiger could not, under any circumstances, become better than Hood. Hood also lacked modernization, but it would have turned out to be a high-quality fast battleship, even better than King George
                        I don’t really believe that 20 years ago, they couldn’t find 2-3 years for capital and modernization. Found for "Warspite", "Queen Elizabeth" and "Vengard". But you didn’t find it here?

                        The order of modernization was as follows - Warspite, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Rinaun, Repulse, Hood, Nelson, Rodney. The last two were supposed to undergo modernization after the completion of those on Queen Elizabeth and Valiant. Modernizations were also limited, so major upgrades began in the late 30s. But they stretched it out in time. And what does Vanguard have to do with it?
                      35. 0
                        20 January 2024 18: 26
                        Who said that a modernized Tiger would be better than an unmodernized Hood? I said that there would be a ship with performance characteristics close to the Hood and better than the Repulse and Rinaun.
                      36. 0
                        20 January 2024 18: 32
                        Z.Y. Regarding the logic of "Nelson". Simple solutions and straightforward logic do not always give good results. This is just about them.
                      37. 0
                        21 January 2024 08: 45
                        You propose to completely rebuild the ship, of which there are no examples. And naturally, what you propose will be better (with such and such modernization), but I cast great doubt on the possibility of this (because there is nothing to prove this), and I don’t even doubt the unreasonability of this
                        Simple solutions and straightforward logic do not always give good results. This is just about them.

                        You look at events after the fact, and I believe that the Lords of the Admiralty could not do this.
                        At that time, the only fast battleships (besides the British) were Kongo and Nagato, and the speed of the latter was hidden. Of course, there was also Yavuz, but you can’t even consider it. As a result, Hood, Rinaun and Repulse were quite enough to counter the Congo.
                        There are no new high-speed ships yet (which Washington contributes a lot to), and if something happens, it would be possible to respond with our own new series.
                        But on the contrary, there were a lot of slow battleships, and many countries had them.
                        So your complaints against the Admiralty literally boil down to the fact that they should have foreseen everything and known exactly (!) what would happen next
                      38. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 54
                        And why is the Nagato scared of a high-speed battleship, with its 26 knots?
                      39. 0
                        21 January 2024 13: 36
                        27 knots, which will be higher than Queen Elizabeth
                        I guess there’s nothing to object to the rest?
                      40. 0
                        21 January 2024 14: 19
                        Quote: YellowToad
                        There are no new high-speed ships yet (which Washington contributes a lot to)

                        I will note in parentheses that the appearance of 30-knot battleships in the second half of the 30s is associated with a combination of specific reasons, different for different countries. In the early 20s, these reasons mostly did not exist. At the same time, there were other considerations, based on which 21 knots were quite enough for a battleship: the most fanatical supporters of this point of view were, naturally, the Americans.
                      41. 0
                        19 January 2024 17: 53
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Seven battleships are good when they are new and of the same type.

                        Interesting dialogue you have...
                        But you personally argue as if the contractual system does not exist.
                      42. 0
                        19 January 2024 19: 29
                        There was an agreement. But it limited the total tonnage and it was possible to transfer tonnage from one class to another. And they managed to circumvent the agreement. The Japanese and British had battleships in their fleets that were formally disarmed and with their boilers removed. Which, however, did not stop the Japanese from very quickly returning the Hyuga to service))) what stopped the British?
                      43. 0
                        20 January 2024 12: 30
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There was an agreement.

                        But you didn’t read it, or you didn’t read it carefully...
                        Read Part 3. Section 1. Replacement Rules. Point D.
                        This will somewhat curb your imagination.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        But it limited the total tonnage and it was possible to transfer tonnage from one class to another.

                        You are confusing this with the 1st London.
                      44. 0
                        20 January 2024 14: 41
                        This did not prevent everyone, Japan and Italy, from circumventing the terms of these treaties. Who stopped England? Moreover, as a result, Nelson produced 39 thousand tons.
                      45. 0
                        20 January 2024 15: 37
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        This did not prevent everyone, Japan and Italy, from circumventing the terms of these treaties.

                        Where did the countries you mentioned circumvent the terms of the treaty?
                      46. 0
                        20 January 2024 17: 12
                        Heavy cruisers of the Gorizia and Mogami class. Enough?
                      47. 0
                        20 January 2024 17: 59
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is it enough?

                        No.
                        In case you forgot, the discussion is about battleships, so talk about battleships... :)
                      48. 0
                        20 January 2024 18: 30
                        So let's pay for battleships))) should be 35 thousand tons? "Nelson" - 39 thousand standard, full 44 thousand. "Nagato" - 39 and full 46 thousand tons. Shall we continue?
                      49. 0
                        20 January 2024 19: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Nelson" - 39 thousand standard, full 44 thousand.

                        By the 45th year?

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Nagato" - 39 and a total of 46 thousand tons.

                        At the end of 1941

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Are we continuing?

                        Let's...
                      50. 0
                        20 January 2024 22: 35
                        What do you want to continue? you said something about compliance with treaties))) were they observed?))) we can continue, for destroyers, for example, or for aircraft carriers, they were also observed there)))
                        I don’t know when Nelson reached 44 thousand tons, but I don’t think it happened all at once. It must be understood that the increase from 39 thousand in 1927 was gradual. I don’t know how much he weighed at 41, somehow I wasn’t interested.
                        And that’s not what we’re talking about. And because all these agreements were pure theory, but in practice everyone tried to circumvent them. Are you saying that the British were more honest than everyone else?
                      51. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 26
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don’t know when Nelson reached 44 thousand tons, but I don’t think it happened all at once. It must be understood that the increase from 39 thousand in 1927 was gradual.

                        Actually, in March 27th, when fully loaded, it pulled 41250 tons...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And because all these agreements were pure theory, but in practice everyone tried to circumvent them. Are you saying that the British were more honest than everyone else?

                        I'm not talking about the British, I'm talking about your fantasies about rebuilding the Tiger.
                      52. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 51
                        And this is where it “dances” from. What the British did not have was an urgent need to urgently rivet the Nelsons. Their strength was already enough "behind the eyes". It was possible to calmly and thoughtfully modernize the Tiger and remake the Hood.
                      53. 0
                        21 January 2024 12: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And that’s not what we’re talking about. And because all these agreements were pure theory, but in practice everyone tried to circumvent them. Are you saying that the British were more honest than everyone else?

                        Thanks to the treaties, the British battlefleet, consisting of 15" and 16" ships, was the strongest in the world if simply no one did anything. Yes, the British were the most honest - since only they were interested in observing these treaties.
                    2. 0
                      18 January 2024 00: 03
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      What would happen if the ship was redesigned and rebuilt, and completed around 1930? Nothing would have happened, but in 1939, England would have had a normal ship, and not an old man who came from WWII.

                      You are considering a spherical horse in a vacuum with a separation from real history... :)
                      1. 0
                        18 January 2024 00: 09
                        I am considering possible ways for the development of the Royal Navy if people with brains sat in Parliament and the Admiralty, and not stupid boots.
          2. 0
            16 January 2024 16: 41
            Quote: Negro

            The Hood's armor was mediocre and stood out compared to the clearly underarmored English LKRs - but not the German LKRs.

            If we consider the final project at the time of laying (with a 203 mm armor belt), then yes, the armor was almost weaker than the Tiger. But after Jutland the ship was specifically loaded. And the 305 mm GBP with a 12 degree tilt was at least as good as the Queen Elizabeths. The deck armor was also (contrary to popular belief) not so weak, although its extremely complex structure created “holes” where the protection was weaker
            1. 0
              17 January 2024 14: 19
              Quote: YellowToad
              305 mm GBP with a 12 degree tilt was at least as good as the Queen Elizabeths

              Which were also mediocrely armored, and like Hood and ZSM under their own guns had big questions.
              1. 0
                17 January 2024 14: 36
                Mediocre relative to whom? German LKR? Let me remind you that you compared Hood with them.
                And in general, which WWI ship had noticeably better protection, that would have been significantly better protected from 15 inch guns?
                1. 0
                  17 January 2024 20: 29
                  Quote: YellowToad
                  German LKR? Let me remind you that you compared Hood with them.

                  )))
                  You're right, the remade Hood and Ersatz York are almost twins. But the German has armor from a 14" ship, let me remind you.
                  Quote: YellowToad
                  And in general, which WWII ship had noticeably better protection?

                  This was once discussed in detail. Bayern.
                  1. 0
                    17 January 2024 22: 59
                    But the German has armor from a 14" ship, let me remind you.

                    But the guns were 15 inch. And Hood's armor was still a little better
                    This was once discussed in detail. Bayern

                    Then I ask for a link or details. Although I believe that we are talking about thicker internal protection, because an additional 20 mm of belt is not that much better
                    1. 0
                      18 January 2024 06: 42
                      Quote: YellowToad
                      But the guns were 15 inch.

                      So that's what we're talking about. E-York is under-armored by German standards.
                      Quote: YellowToad
                      Then I ask for a link

                      Someone present here wrote “War and Peace” on this issue.
                      https://topwar.ru/155918-standartnye-linkory-ssha-germanii-i-anglii-i-nakonec-pobeditel.html
                      1. 0
                        18 January 2024 09: 52
                        Yeah, but the author ultimately gives Revenge first place in citadel security: https://topwar.ru/155586-standartnye-linkory-ssha-germanii-i-anglii-zaschita-citadeli.html
                        And in addition, he separately notes that Bayern, after breaking through a barbette or tower, has a higher chance of flying into the air than the British after Jutland

                        But in general, I would not call the protection of battleships of those years insufficient to withstand a blow at medium distance, just as I would not call a representative noticeably better protected.

                        So that's what we're talking about. E-York is under-armored by German standards.

                        I don’t know what kind of “concepts” the Germans have, but they designed the ship themselves, and its armor protection generally suited them (otherwise the project would have been rejected)

                        Returning to the beginning, it turns out that the Hood’s armor as a whole stood out against the background of the German LKRs (certainly it was not worse), and even reached the level of battleships, the deck protection was certainly stronger than the same Bayern
  9. +8
    14 January 2024 10: 36
    Kaptsov, as always, is very interesting to read. Especially those ignorant of the topic. When you think about it more carefully, you come to the conclusion that Oleg almost always pulls an owl onto a globe. He either deliberately omits something or makes assumptions that should confirm his point of view. In general, everything for a beautiful word smile
    Yes, as a percentage of the displacement, the weight of the armor on the Scharnhorsts was indecent even for larger battleships. But again, only on paper. The projectile does not necessarily hit that narrow place along the waterline where the 350mm side beams are plused with a 105mm bevel. But in order to understand the whole logic of the reservation arrangement on the ship, it is necessary to tell all the nuances during the design that one way or another influenced the final result. Oleg doesn’t mention this, but he colorfully plays with numbers. As a result, what kind of thread will a victim of the Unified State Exam read this opus with his mouth open, without understanding that displacement restrictions led to the appearance of an 80mm glacis above the engine room on the ship’s diagram, into which a shell from the Duke of York hit, penetrating the front this is a 45mm upper belt above the main armor belt. As a result, the “most protected ship” rests on the bottom of the Barents Sea. What some of the commentators already wrote about.
    Oleg, we need to take people more seriously. Or at least compare the weight loads of modern cardboard destroyers with armored ones, so that you can see where the designers spend displacement...
    I understand what you want to say with this article and what questions you raise, and the young down will run around in all seriousness and shout that Scharnhorst is super duper and beat the faces of those who disagree during recess
    Well, just to smile and pay tribute to perseverance will do hi
    1. +2
      14 January 2024 10: 47
      The projectile does not necessarily hit that narrow place along the waterline where the 350mm side beams are plused with a 105mm bevel.

      A strange statement from a person with whom we have been discussing for many years. This is, as it were, the logic of the armor belt and ship protection schemes of that era

      This "bottleneck" is one of the few paths leading to the cellars and vital compartments. All other options, hitting other places, would mean that the projectile would never reach the citadel compartments - much thinner armor would be encountered on its way, but at such unfavorable angles that it would simply hit flat and almost 100% ricochet
      1. +2
        14 January 2024 11: 14
        How does it “never get there” if it got there?
      2. +1
        14 January 2024 13: 54
        Where the projectile will land and how it will interact with the armor is a theory of probability. According to preliminary calculations, the British 356 mm could not penetrate the Scharnhorst’s armor at those distances and heading angles. However, he struck)))
      3. +3
        14 January 2024 14: 32
        Quote: Santa Fe
        A strange statement from a person with whom we have been discussing for many years. This is, as it were, the logic of the armor belt and ship protection schemes of that era

        Yeah, we’re just arguing about the need to armor modern ships with current weapons wink
        And if in the REV and WWII the dependence of the ship’s protection and its combat stability still worked, then in WWII and after it this rule stopped working
        This "bottleneck" is one of the few paths leading to the cellars and vital compartments. All other options, hitting other places, would mean that the projectile would never reach the citadel compartments - much thinner armor would be encountered on its way, but at such unfavorable angles that it would simply hit flat and almost 100% ricochet

        Oleg, a shell in the Bismarck that hit under the belt and disabled half of the ship’s generators and led to the flooding of a couple of stokers, says the opposite, as does the same shell in the Scharnhorst, which hit above the armor belt and still reached the stokers. Shall we argue again? wink
        1. +3
          14 January 2024 20: 10
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Oleg, a shell hit the Bismarck under the belt and disabled half of the ship’s generators and led to the flooding of a couple of stokers

          Let's put in not half, but a quarter, and not a couple of stokers, but one... and that one was taken out of work almost a day later, when they got tired of bailing out the water.
          1. +1
            14 January 2024 21: 31
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Let's put not half, but a quarter

            Yes i know drinks , this is so, figuratively... But it was still enough to serve Lutyens as one of the reasons to interrupt the operation smile Which again confirms the thesis about a successful hit hi
            1. +2
              14 January 2024 21: 49
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Which again confirms the thesis about a successful hit hi

              The main thing was the hole in the nose...
              Although the further I think about the question, I think two shells flew into the bow: one that everyone is talking about, and the second - straight into the tanks, below the waterline.
              1. +2
                14 January 2024 22: 13
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                I think two shells flew into the nose:

                And I think there is only one. After all, the Germans examined the damage after the battle
                The first was a 356-mm projectile hitting a 60-mm anti-fragmentation belt in the nose in compartment XXI (two compartments in front of the bow armored traverse). The projectile did not explode, but went right through and formed two holes with a diameter of 60 mm in the 850-mm belt, slightly above the waterline, but below the level of the bow breaker. On the way, the projectile pierced the transverse bulkhead between compartments XXI and XX, which began to fill with water (in the end, it was accepted from 1000 to 2000 tons). Initially, the water inflow was small and the emergency party proposed to reduce the speed and flood the tanks to increase the trim at the stern. These measures were supposed to raise the hole above the nasal wave, which would make it possible to close it. However, tactical considerations did not allow Admiral Lutiens to reduce the speed to less than 28 knots, as a result of which the water pressure began to increase damage. Another unpleasant consequence of the hit was the break in the pipeline leading to the bow fuel tanks. The front sump pump and oil pump are under water. About 1000 tons of oil in the bow compartments were cut off from the ship's fuel system, this oil began to seep overboard through the punctured pipeline, and the tanks were partially filled with water. The ship received a 2 ° trim to the bow and a slight roll to the port side.

                After the end of the battle, the emergency party tried to limit the flow of water. But the splinter belt could not be repaired without stopping the ship. It also turned out that the pumps in compartment XXII cannot cope with the water flow, and the manifolds in the fuel lines are flooded and do not work. The emergency party tried to pump out fuel from compartments XXI and XXII through hoses bypassing flooded pumps and pipelines, but these attempts were unsuccessful. To prevent further damage to the hull by the pressure of water through the holes, the divers began to seal them with mats from the inside. To complete this operation, the speed was reduced to 22 knots, but the water flow decreased slightly.
                1. +2
                  14 January 2024 22: 39
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  And I think there is only one. After all, the Germans examined the damage after the battle

                  Well... I know the classic version. :)
                  The problem is that this is all from the words of Baron M-R.
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2024 23: 17
                    Or maybe the words of one of the few survivors are worth trusting rather than allowing the unverifiable wink
                    1. 0
                      15 January 2024 18: 29
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      Or maybe the words of one of the few survivors are more trustworthy?

                      Let's just say, some time after reading the baron's memoirs, I got the impression that the compilation and rewriting of the books by Brenneke and Kennedy, diluted with Tovey's report, and a little bit of his own, "lies as an eyewitness" ... :)
                      It’s just that the radiogram from 06:10 says that the shell passed between the battery and armored decks, and this is not only above the waterline, but also above the breaker line.
                      Therefore, it can be assumed that another shell passed through the tanks, causing a loss of fuel and even greater flooding in the bow.
                      1. 0
                        15 January 2024 20: 23
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Therefore, it can be assumed that another shell passed through the tanks, causing a loss of fuel and even greater flooding in the bow.

                        Okay, let’s say the post-war memoirs of an individual can be hardly trusted. But it seems unlikely to me that the same radiogram would not mention two hits in the same (plus or minus) place. Moreover, two shells did not explode. And personally, I have never seen such an assumption anywhere. So most likely there was one shell that hit the bow at a level near the waterline, damaging along the way some of the pipelines between the tanks. And since (even if not in the breaker area) the weather was not calm, water flowed into the ship as a result of the waves, which still led to flooding. Personally, I don't see any contradictions request Maxim, the argument is, in principle, about nothing hi
                      2. +1
                        15 January 2024 20: 41
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        Moreover, two shells did not explode.

                        But here it’s interesting: the baron writes that the shell did not explode, but in the Survey of Prisoners it is indicated that it exploded and the exit hole was approx. 1,5 m

                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        So most likely there was one shell that hit the bow at a level near the waterline, damaging along the way some of the pipelines between the tanks.

                        They walked a couple of decks below...

                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        Maxim, the argument is, in principle, about nothing

                        That's how it is, but it never hurts to think about the problem... :)
    2. +1
      14 January 2024 13: 50
      Excellent analysis of the topic, hats off. hi
  10. +1
    14 January 2024 10: 37
    The Germans in World War 2 stepped on the same rake as in World War 1. They built beautiful ships that successfully fought against superior enemy forces, spent the resources they needed on this - the result was zero, even negative. Initially, it was clear that it would not be possible to compete with the united British-American fleet.
    1. +2
      14 January 2024 10: 40
      Quote: Roman Efremov
      Initially, it was clear that it would not be possible to compete with the united British-American fleet.

      Yes.

      Therefore, they were not going to fight either with England, or especially with the USA. Somehow it just happened.
      1. +1
        14 January 2024 13: 56
        Sorry, it somehow happened by itself - this is an explanation at the level of a nursery group of a kindergarten. This is why any country has a top military and political leadership so that this does not happen.
        1. 0
          14 January 2024 13: 58
          Quote: TermNachTER
          This is why any country has a top military and political leadership so that this doesn’t happen

          Come on. We wanted one thing, but we got something else. This happens with political leadership all the time. Here, you know, there is no need to remember things that happened a hundred years ago.
          1. 0
            14 January 2024 14: 04
            Not required))) but you can compare the consequences - III ceased to exist.
            1. +1
              14 January 2024 14: 11
              Quote: TermNachTER
              ceased to exist.

              He is not the first, he is not the last. Of that entire group, let me remind you that only two countries lived 50 years after the war: one winner, one loser. For everyone else, something also happened on its own, some earlier, some later.
              1. 0
                14 January 2024 14: 41
                Yeah, only Putin immediately had a plan “B” if “A” didn’t work. But Hitler didn’t have it. Although we are talking about the fleet, in this case it is better to refer to the memoirs of Raeder and Doenitz. As for such a complex phenomenon as the emergence and destruction of states, this is a very complex dialectic that includes a lot of different factors, both objective and subjective. This will take a couple more volumes.
                1. +1
                  14 January 2024 21: 40
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Yeah, only Putin immediately had a plan “B” if “A” didn’t work. But Hitler didn’t have it

                  You should also be more careful with historical analogies.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  the emergence and destruction of states is a very complex dialectic,

                  Nevertheless, we have what we have. Of the states that participated in WWII, only the USA and, with reservations, Japan survived the WWII soldiers themselves. Apparently this statesmanship of yours is in great short supply.
                  1. 0
                    14 January 2024 21: 46
                    Why don't you like the analogy? Offer yours.
                    1. +1
                      14 January 2024 21: 48
                      Italo-Ethiopian War.
                      1. 0
                        14 January 2024 22: 41
                        Also a good option, no worse than others.
    2. 0
      14 January 2024 11: 17
      Quote: Roman Efremov
      They built beautiful ships

      This is something new:)))))
      1. +1
        14 January 2024 12: 03
        What, did they have bad ships? They beat the “Mistress of the Seas”, and more than once, they beat her outnumbered. The Britons could not defeat Bismarck in an equal battle, they got burned - they had to bring in an aircraft carrier and a bunch of other ships.
        1. 0
          14 January 2024 13: 18
          Quote: Roman Efremov
          What, did they have bad ships?

          There are different opinions about WWII, but in WWII, yes, they are mediocre.
        2. +3
          14 January 2024 13: 35
          Quote: Roman Efremov
          What, did they have bad ships?

          In WWII - yes. Very. Not all, of course, but most of the surface ships.
          Quote: Roman Efremov
          They beat the "Mistress of the Seas", and more than once, they beat the outnumbered

          Remind me, otherwise nothing comes to mind other than the Bismarck battle. Either the ShiG is running away from the old British LCR, then the “New Year’s battle”, then the destroyers from Narvik cannot leave because the fuel consumption is much higher than the rated value, and they are being crushed there like chickens, then the “Scharnhorst” cannot break through the British cruisers to the korovan, then the Spee is running from the light cruisers to the port...
          1. -2
            14 January 2024 14: 10
            So that’s why nothing comes to mind because there were only 2 modern battleships, after the death of one (a glorious, heroic death), the second had to be hidden! And from the very beginning it was clear that this would be the case, that even the British fleet could not compete, not to mention the US fleet. A complete miscalculation of the country's leadership when planning weapons needs.
            1. +1
              14 January 2024 16: 03
              Quote: Roman Efremov
              So that’s why nothing comes to mind because there were only 2 modern battleships

              Pardon me, why did two modern ShiGs run away from non-modern LKRs of the WWI era? And yes, but what about destroyers? Light and heavy cruisers?
          2. -1
            14 January 2024 14: 24
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Did they have bad ships?

            In WWII - yes. Very

            Very bad ships were built or tried to be built by other countries. The German ones were still mediocre. A couple of projects are perhaps even quite good for the 30s.
            1. +2
              14 January 2024 14: 45
              Very bad ships were built or tried to be built by other countries. The German ones were still mediocre. A couple of projects are perhaps even quite good for the 30s.

              This is an interesting question. At one time I was very critical of German ships, but it is quite obvious that absolutely all participants in the naval race had serious problems with the design of ships. Unless the French were noted as problematic, well, they almost didn’t fight.
              1. +1
                14 January 2024 21: 44
                Quote: Engineer
                Unless the French were noted as problematic, well, they almost didn’t fight.

                Khe khe.

                I'll risk rephrasing. The French were not noted as problematic because almost didn't fight. Otherwise, the same Richelieu with his ruptured main battery barrels would hardly have sailed in the best battleships of the war.

                But the Germans cannot name any masterpieces, but it is also wrong to present the Kriegsmarine as a crime against the Aryan race.
            2. 0
              14 January 2024 16: 07
              Quote: Negro
              A couple of projects are perhaps even quite good for the 30s.

              The Germans had good Bismarck and Tirpitz. Excellent submarines. And perhaps that’s all
              1. -1
                14 January 2024 20: 01
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The Germans had good Bismarck and Tirpitz.

                Well, Bismarck and Tirpitz were just C grades. They are conservative where it is not necessary and advanced where it is not necessary. I like both KRTs from the Germans. The eldest one is even good - if only because in response to three good SRTs, the French built two bad battleships. In general, the accidental failure in the South Atlantic greatly affected the reputation of these ships.
                1. +1
                  14 January 2024 20: 37
                  Quote: Negro
                  I like both KRTs from the Germans.

                  The taste and color ...
                  Quote: Negro
                  The older one is really good

                  The ability to carry out its tasks was only reset to zero with the advent of high-speed LCs
                  Quote: Negro
                  at least because in response to three good SRTs, the French built two bad battleships

                  And it’s hard to call them bad. If only because in response the Italians rushed to modernize their four. And THESE were really bad battleships :)))))
                  1. -1
                    14 January 2024 20: 53
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the ability to perform its tasks was reset to zero with the advent of high-speed LCs

                    If the cruiser is being chased by high-speed light ships, which, in addition, were specially built for this purpose, then it has exceeded its objectives.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And it’s hard to call them bad

                    This is if we consider Strasbourg in a vacuum. In reality, the battleship tonnage limit was spent on ships that obviously could not fight battleships.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the Italians rushed to modernize their four. AND THESE were really bad battleships

                    Just Italian grandfathers on speed is a great idea. Throw out the central towers from New York, remake the ends, put in Essex cars and new superstructures like the Pearl Harbor drowners - and it would have turned out much cheaper, stronger and, most importantly, earlier than Alaska.
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2024 23: 03
                      Quote: Negro
                      If the cruiser is being chased by high-speed light ships, which, in addition, were specially built for this purpose, then it has exceeded its objectives.

                      The race will end quickly - much like with ShiG which are BRKR. I don’t know what this means of overfulfillment of tasks...
                      Quote: Negro
                      In reality, the battleship tonnage limit was spent on ships that obviously could not fight battleships.

                      What is this all of a sudden? Two potential enemies of France - Germany and Italy - built pickpockets, ShiG and modernized Cesare and Cavour.
                      Quote: Negro
                      Just Italian grandfathers on speed is a great idea

                      I’m absolutely at a loss, what can I say - if investing a lot of money in a ship that is unsuitable for combat with either a modern or an old LC, or a small LC, or an LKR is a good idea... What’s a bad idea then?
                      1. 0
                        15 January 2024 00: 01
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I don’t know what this means of overfulfillment of tasks...

                        The long-term distraction of a battleship, which is 2-3 times larger and more expensive, is generally the maximum that can be expected from a cruiser.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Two potential enemies of France - Germany and Italy - built pickpockets, ShiG and modernized Cesare and Cavour.

                        After which it turned out that they would have to fight with the 15" British, and with all due respect, Strasbourg had little chance against any new full-fledged battleship.
                        The first normal battleships turned out to be stronger than at least any WWII “standard”: be it English or American. Which is pretty logical. For Strasbourg, a meeting with “standards” was contraindicated.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        a ship that is unsuitable for combat either with a modern or with an old LC, or with a small LC, or with an LKR is a good idea

                        The Italians could fight with the old French battleships. Courbet is not Lisa, she is still an antique. However, it is more important that the Italians implemented the idea “we’ll kill the cruiser and run away from the battleship” relatively rationally. Again, to chase them, you needed either new LKs or British LKRs, which are not enough for everything.
                      2. 0
                        15 January 2024 18: 38
                        Quote: Negro
                        The long-term distraction of a battleship, which is 2-3 times larger and more expensive, is generally the maximum that can be expected from a cruiser.

                        In fact, one should expect a maximum intercepted tonnage from a cruiser over a long period of time. And for this, oddly enough, the most important thing is not firepower, but speed, so that you can break away from enemy ships.
                        Therefore, building a ship that is a priori unable to escape either from enemy cruisers (even if they are unable to kill it) or from a high-speed LC is a slightly strange idea - it is enough for one of the “beaters” to find a pickpocket and, without fighting, maintain contact with him - the high-speed LC will come fast enough.
                        And during the years of construction, the British had 3 pickpockets. True, again, pickpockets were not created against them, but... you yourself refer to the fact that
                        Quote: Negro
                        After which it turned out that we would have to fight with the 15" British

                        Ummmm:)))) Dunkirk is bad because, contrary to the military plans for which his technical specifications were made, he had to fight with the 15-dm LK of the British. And Cesare and Duilio are good, despite the fact that they had to fight against exactly the same 15-dm LK of the British?!
                        Doesn't anything hurt your eyes? :))))
                      3. 0
                        15 January 2024 19: 34
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is enough for one of the “beaters” to find a pickpocket and, without fighting, maintain contact with him - a high-speed LC will come quickly enough.

                        If we get lucky. “Scheer” could not be caught, although they “led” for quite a long time.
                      4. -1
                        15 January 2024 22: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In fact, you can expect a maximum intercepted tonnage from a cruiser over a long period of time.

                        This will be done by the second cruiser. This is the advantage of cruisers over battleships: there are many of them.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Therefore, build a ship that is a priori unable to escape either from enemy cruisers (even if they are unable to kill it) or from a high-speed LC

                        I smell the Italian heresy. Speed ​​doesn't work either.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Doesn't anything hurt your eyes? :))))

                        Of course not.

                        Dunkirk was a new battleship. A new battleship must, by definition, fight with old battleships. That is, with regard to new battleships, of course, a surprise may occur in the form of Yamato, but the old ones definitely need to be kept in mind. Hood, Nelson, Colorado, Nagato.

                        Dunkirk obviously was not capable of this. Consequently, the scarce limit of battleship tonnage was wasted. Moreover, there is no doubt that Strasbourg itself is a wonderful ship.

                        The Italian grandfathers were old trash, for whom a decisive battle with any English battleship guaranteed a straight downward path. Therefore, the desire to make them not completely useless must be viewed from a different angle. Four grandfathers or two Littorios? Of course Littorio. Four grandfathers or 4 Zara? But here I would choose the grandfathers: when meeting with any cruiser, they turn back into a battleship, the king of the seas.
                      5. 0
                        17 January 2024 09: 12
                        Quote: Negro
                        This will be done by the second cruiser. This is the advantage of cruisers over battleships: there are many of them.

                        Which is the second one? :) If we are talking about a classic cruiser, it will be intercepted by cruisers, there is no need for a LC.
                        Quote: Negro
                        I smell the Italian heresy. Speed ​​doesn't work either.

                        This is because you didn’t bother to study the history of the cruising war of WWI/WWII.
                        It works quite well. Strictly speaking, either speed or camouflage works. The first one is good for fast ships, the second one is good for auxiliary cruisers.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Dunkirk was a new battleship. A new battleship must, by definition, fight with old battleships.

                        To whom should it? :))) Generally speaking, the ship is created for specific tasks. France's potential opponents at the time of the creation of Dunkirk included Germany, Italy, and even Japan could hardly be thought of at that time. And Dunkirk was stronger than any ship in Germany or Italy.
                        Quote: Negro
                        That is, with regard to new battleships, of course, a surprise may occur in the form of Yamato, but the old ones definitely need to be kept in mind.

                        You're missing out on speed. Dunkirk was a fast ship that could, with a good chance of success, fight with the same Congo and escape from the more powerful ones. And France, even in its worst nightmare, would never have dreamed of fighting against Japan alone.
                        Quote: Negro
                        But here I would choose the grandfathers: when meeting with any cruiser, they turn back into a battleship, the king of the seas.

                        I do not argue
                2. 0
                  16 January 2024 00: 08
                  Quote: Negro
                  in response to three good SRTs, the French built two bad battleships

                  These were political battleships. And during their construction they looked more at the British than at the Germans.
          3. +2
            14 January 2024 20: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            then the Spee is running from the light cruisers to the port...

            "Spee" had nothing to do... fuel remained only in the consumable tanks of the cars and there was enough for about a day. A shell from the Exeter successfully broke the pumps...
            1. +2
              14 January 2024 20: 34
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              "Spee" had nothing to do...

              An alternative is to turn to the KRL, concentrate fire on one of them and gouge them one by one (as happened with Exeter) and not do the damn thing, shooting from the bow turret at one target from the stern - at another and spinning around, dodging from 152 mm shells...
              And then - yes, return to the port
              1. +2
                14 January 2024 20: 57
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Alternatively, turn to the KRL, concentrate fire on one of them and gouge them one by one

                Khe khe.

                The battle between a light and semi-heavy cruiser and a 280mm ship was simply bound to end sadly for at least one of the British, if not for all. Look, Exeter fought with the Japanese a little later.
                But for the Germans, this was exactly the day when main battery shells fly into enemy cellars and do not explode. This also happens.
                1. +1
                  15 January 2024 09: 03
                  Quote: Negro
                  But for the Germans, this was exactly the day when main battery shells fly into enemy cellars and do not explode

                  This is a day of frankly erroneous orders from the commander of a German ship, who completely lost his morale and willingness to fight after being hit by the force of a British shell.
                  1. +1
                    15 January 2024 10: 21
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    who has completely lost his fighting spirit and willingness to fight

                    Maybe. Everything went the same way.
                  2. +1
                    15 January 2024 18: 33
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    who completely lost his morale and willingness to fight after being hit by the force of a British shell

                    You know, shell shock is...
                    I haven’t experienced it myself (lucky) yet, but I often see the consequences.
                    1. +1
                      15 January 2024 18: 50
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      You know, shell shock is...

                      I don’t argue, but some people, having suffered several wounds, one of which was a puncture of the skull with the removal of bone fragments between the skull and the brain, in delirium, continued to demand that they go to Vladivostok...
                      And in general, are there many examples when the commander was seriously wounded, but continued to fight? However, of course, “judge not, lest ye be judged”
        3. 0
          14 January 2024 13: 58
          Roman, look at the situation a little more broadly than it is shown on YouTube or Wikipedia. First, read Ludwig Kennedy's The Hunt for Bismarck.
  11. 0
    14 January 2024 11: 06
    The Scharnhorst had spaced horizontal protection, consisting of two armored decks. A very archaic solution, nevertheless, it had its merits.

    As a rule of thumb, the strength (projectile resistance) of an armor plate is proportional to the square of its thickness. In other words, one thick armored deck provides 4 times better protection than two spaced decks with a total of the same thickness. Therefore, by the beginning of World War II, priority was given throughout the world to schemes with a single (main) armored deck of maximum thickness.

    Here the author, let’s say, is mistaken. Almost all pre-war battleships had horizontal protection from several decks - upper armor (platoon), main and anti-fragmentation.
    1. +2
      14 January 2024 11: 44
      Almost all pre-war battleships had horizontal protection from several decks

      Reservation upper deck?

      The French - Dunkirk, Richelieu - no
      King George V - no
      Yamato - no, everything went to strengthening the main deck

      Littorio - an attempt was made, the upper deck is one and a half times thinner than the Germans, the main efforts were also spent on strengthening the main deck.

      Americans - there was a bomb deck there, in the area of ​​the citadel (exactly for the purpose you were talking about - arming the bomb fuse). And the displacement reserves were enough for the thick main deck

      The way the Germans armored the upper deck, 50 mm along the entire length of the hull, was never done by anyone else.
      1. +4
        14 January 2024 13: 23
        King George V - no

        Weather deck 1.25 inches thick with Ducol (D) steel
        -Main armored deck below (one deck higher as decided in 1935) 5.88 in (149 mm) in non-cemented steel + 0.5-inch D steel deck
        -Ammunition magazines had a 1.5-inch splinter deck
        1. +4
          14 January 2024 13: 31
          Littorio - an attempt was made, the upper deck is one and a half times thinner than the Germans, the main efforts were also spent on strengthening the main deck.


          The weather deck over the citadel consists of 36 mm (1.4 in) homogeneous armor over 9 mm (0.35 in) plating; the main armor deck varied depending on the space it was protecting. Over the magazines, the main armor deck was 150 mm (5.9 in) homogeneous armor laminated on a 12 mm (0.47 in) deck plating inboard and 100 mm (3.9 in) on 12 mm plating outboard. Over the machinery spaces, the main armor deck was 100 mm (3.9 in) on 12 mm plating inboard and 90 mm (3.5 in) on 12 mm plating outboard. The main armor deck extends to the bow and stern, where it is thinned to 60 mm (2.4 in) over 10 mm (0.39 in) plating and 36 mm (1.4 in) over 8 mm (0.31 in) plating respectively
          1. +4
            14 January 2024 13: 40
            The French - Dunkirk, Richelieu - no

            The French have “national specifics,” but they still have two decks.
            le pont blindé supérieur: 170 à 150 mm; le pont blindé inférieur: 40 mm;
            1. +4
              14 January 2024 13: 46
              Americans - there was a bomb deck there, in the area of ​​the citadel (exactly for the purpose you were talking about - arming the bomb fuse). And the displacement reserves were enough for the thick main deck
            2. -1
              15 January 2024 06: 58
              but there are still two decks.

              And the second, thin anti-splinter, below the main deck

              It was located at the level (when fully loaded, below) the waterline, which simplified the design and removed some of the upper weight. This is the secret of her appearance
        2. -1
          15 January 2024 06: 52
          Weather deck 1.25 inches thick with Ducol (D) steel

          Dukol - structural steel, deck flooring and hull elements were made from it

          The Germans didn’t even consider such decks as armor in their projects
      2. +2
        14 January 2024 20: 17
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The way the Germans armored the upper deck, 50 mm along the entire length of the hull, was never done by anyone else.

        The entire length was not armored: from the 19th to the 207th frame.
        It's a small thing, but still...
    2. +2
      14 January 2024 13: 59
      It can be said more simply - the Scharnhorst had the armor protection of German battleships of the WWII period, which no longer met the requirements of WWII.
      1. +2
        14 January 2024 14: 05
        It can be said more simply - the Scharnhorst had the armor protection of German battleships of the WWII period, which no longer met the requirements of WWII.

        Its structural anti-torpedo protection was, to put it mildly, not up to par.
        Therefore, he is in no way worthy of the honorary title of “most protected”.
        1. +2
          14 January 2024 14: 52
          Its structural anti-torpedo protection was, to put it mildly, not up to par.

          The Germans' lackluster PTZ was largely compensated for by the traditionally excellent division into compartments, duplication of units and good combat for survivability.
          In practice, Scharnhorst needed from 14 to 15 torpedoes - an outstanding result
          1. +5
            14 January 2024 20: 19
            Quote: Engineer
            In practice, Scharnhorst needed from 14 to 15 torpedoes - an outstanding result

            The Germans themselves counted 8.
            The commanders reported at 13-14
            Fraser has cut the sturgeon down to 11...
            1. +1
              14 January 2024 20: 41
              It's a bit of a pity, the legend is beautiful.
              But it turns out the British, as usual, demonstrated their signature torpedo skills
              Still a lot.
              Moreover, the first four seem to be on one side.
              And it seems like the English already have Torpex as an explosive. A very evil thing
  12. +1
    14 January 2024 11: 13
    Well, it's worth understanding. That the Deutschland series of cruisers, called “Pocket Battleships,” remained to be very heavy cruisers. But the most important thing is that the “Germans” were created as raider ships.
    And this is where all their characteristics come from.
    The caliber of the gun was selected taking into account the rate of fire, low barrel wear and a large amount of ammunition. Since the ship was raiding, finding and destroying convoys, it could not enter the port for a long time. Hence the enormous seaworthiness and protection (in order to avoid entering the port for as long as possible, convoys can have guards. But after the destruction of each of the convoys, you don’t want to have to go to repair the ship from damage received from guarding the convoy). Pocket battleships turned out to be the best embodiment of raiders. If only Germany were developing its submarine fleet. If we could also build more such battleships, the outcome of the war at sea would be much more unpredictable.

    But the ending of the article made the right “bait”! He directly says, “Maybe it’s worth considering returning passive protection systems for ships in the form of armor!?”
    After all, the development of sea and air unmanned systems leads us to the near prospect that these weapons will become widespread, but effective defense systems against them do not exist. And even if they create it, they will not provide 100% protection. And modern ships turn out to be somehow ... frail, since they can be disabled, or even flooded, by being hit by one sea drone or one light anti-ship missile.
  13. +5
    14 January 2024 11: 15
    As always - perky, fun and imprecise :))))
    Taking the most protected ship out of its share of armor in its displacement is quite a task. Oleg took it upon himself - as a result, it turned out that Scharnhorst was the most protected... The same Scharnhorst who received a critical hit, which predetermined his death, with a 356-mm shell.
    And in general, to bring into the lead a type of ship that managed to lose 2 turrets in battle from being hit by one heavy shell - well, that’s it :))))
    Comparing the weight reports of ships from different countries head-on is also wrong; they could be calculated differently. For example, the Yamato has a mass of artillery and ammunition of 11 tons, while the Iowa has only 661 tons. Why is this so? Yes, because the Japanese considered the armor of the towers as related to artillery, and the Americans - as related to armor. And if we take into account that there was about 6141 tons of armor in each 460-mm turret, 800 tons for three towers, and the weight of other armor was not 2400 tons according to Kaptsov, but 20 tons, then even with this amendment alone " Yamato has armor of almost 000% of standard displacement.
    What about the quality of the armor, which was different? And what about the logical oddities when Oleg remembers the less durability of spaced-out armor, and immediately sings hosannas to Scharnhorst’s spaced-out onboard armor?
    And the whole article is like this - some inaccuracies give rise to other inaccuracies and lead to more than strange conclusions :))))
    1. 0
      14 January 2024 12: 12
      Andrey, I would not compare the security from episode to episode with large-caliber shelling. Solid steel blanks of 700-1000 kg at two speeds of sound are too extreme an example, and from the standpoint of our time, the penetrating ability is generally unimaginable. And shocks that damaged drives and equipment. Therefore, such unexpected and paradoxical, sometimes opposite results, in every battle

      Much more important is how the ships coped in “everyday” situations - for example, when bombed from the air with bombs of various calibers.

      14 thousand tons of Scharnhorst protection is a great example; they really managed to cover the ship from all sides. Its 70 mm wide belt covering the extremities or the 50 mm upper deck were in reality more useful elements than all these 300-400 mm sides of the citadel. And from this position, the quality of the armor already fades into the background

      About the onboard armor of the Scharnhorst citadel 450 mm. It is clear that in the form of a solid structure it would have better projectile resistance. But this value was achieved not through the blunt addition of metal plates, but through the relative position already available structural elements relative to each other. And that’s the beauty of this solution.
      1. 0
        14 January 2024 12: 58
        Solid steel bars weighing 700-1000 kg at two speeds of sound is too extreme an example, and from the standpoint of our time, the penetrating ability is generally unimaginable

        Assessing the stability of a LC under fire from other LCs turns out to be giving extreme examples laughing
        And from this position, the quality of the armor already fades into the background

        The Germans have complete order with the quality of their armor. No worse than English according to English data
        Alas, this does not change the lameness of Scharnhorst.
        1. 0
          14 January 2024 13: 12
          Assess the stability of a LC under fire from other LCs

          Has anyone managed to survive a blow from a 13/15/16 inch blank without consequences?

          Then what conclusions can be drawn from these examples, what to compare?
          1. +5
            14 January 2024 14: 30
            You need to compare what is comparable.
            WWII provided virtually no data on the value of thick side armor. The shells regularly flew to places where, theoretically, they could only fly under extremely unfavorable circumstances. Consider the exchange of low blows in the Denmark Strait.
            In the last battle, Scharnhorst was unable to fight or escape, and his thick armor did not protect him; the fatal shell, as if in mockery, hit the “window.”
            The conclusions are quite obvious. Not a single WWII battleship in real examples could withstand the fire of its counterparts. Victory could no longer be won by “enduring” as in WWI. Now the first one to achieve a successful hit won. Armor no longer saved battleships
            1. +3
              14 January 2024 19: 23
              Quote: Engineer
              Now the first one to achieve a successful hit won. Armor no longer saved battleships

              Yes good My tongue will soon become swollen repeating what you just said! I agree 100%.
            2. -1
              14 January 2024 21: 15
              Quote: Engineer
              WWII provided virtually no data on the value of thick side armor. The shells regularly flew to places where, theoretically, they could only fly under extremely unfavorable circumstances. Consider the exchange of low blows in the Denmark Strait.

              Uh-uh no. Just two German cases of a golden bullet (or what happened there, no one knows) and that’s all. There are many more cases when it didn’t get pregnant and everyone went home. By the way, starting from the same Danish Strait, the battle with the gunless “prince”.
              1. +1
                14 January 2024 21: 25
                The prince fled as soon as it got hot, ShiG at the Lofontaine Islands is similar. No one tested the armor for strength and did not want to try their luck
                Hack and predictor Aviator
                Not a single WWII battleship in real examples could withstand the fire of its counterparts. Victory could no longer be won by “enduring” as in WWI. Now the first one to achieve a successful hit won.

                still valid
                What are the objections?
                1. -2
                  14 January 2024 21: 34
                  Quote: Engineer
                  still valid
                  What are the objections?

                  There are more than two cases when LCs caught a certain number of main battery hits and dispersed. This is if we attribute both Hood and Sharik to golden bullets, and not to smoking in a powder magazine, see "Empress Maria".

                  Will we count or will you take our word for it?
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2024 21: 54
                    There are more than two cases when LCs caught a certain number of main battery hits and dispersed.

                    What do you mean?
                    A successful hit is not necessarily a “golden bullet”. This is any hit after which the opponent has an irresistible desire to merge. Like in the Denmark Strait.
                    I didn’t even think that I would have to explain such things
                    1. -2
                      14 January 2024 22: 11
                      Quote: Engineer
                      any hit after which the opponent has an irresistible desire to merge

                      This is already a scam. If we say “only lakishots,” that means straight to the bottom. If the ship received something and went to base, then the idea of ​​accumulating damage still works. Moreover, the same Dakota received from Kirishima about as much as Seidlitz and Delflinger combined.
                      1. 0
                        14 January 2024 22: 50
                        This is already a scam. If we say “only lakishots”, that means straight to the bottom

                        Cheating is when a lil nigga from Alabama begins to impose his standards of understanding.
                        If shells fly under the Prince's tall armor belt twice, this is a successful hit. If a shell lands in the conning tower, the armor of which was decided to be weakened based on the results of the WWI, and injures and kills a bunch of people and the commander is shell-shocked, this is a successful hit.
                        There was no accumulated damage in the examples above. Suddenly it turned out that the big guys get sick even from single hits and they are in a hurry to escape before it’s too late.
                        I haven’t yet reminded Norfolk, who demolished Bismarck’s control post at the beginning of the battle and Scharnhorst’s radar also at the beginning of the battle, which had a fair impact on the course of the battles. And these are also successful hits, and not these Alabama gold bullets
                        Moreover, the same Dakota received from Kirishima about as much as Seidlitz and Delflinger combined.

                        No way again the trademark “polemical sharpening of the thesis” popularly called an outline?
                        In the damage report, it was suddenly mentioned one 14 inch shell
                        https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/w/war-damage-reports/uss-south-dakota-bb57-war-damage-report-no57.html
                      2. 0
                        15 January 2024 00: 12
                        Quote: Engineer
                        https://www.history.navy.mil

                        Cough cough. Touche. I recalibrated my understanding of that battle.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And these are also successful hits, and not these Alabama gold bullets

                        There were no such cases with BB-60.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Not a single WWII battleship in real examples could withstand the fire of its counterparts. Victory could no longer be won by “enduring” as in WWII. Now the first one to achieve a successful hit won. Armor no longer saved battleships

                        If we formulate it less categorically: the combat effectiveness of the LoC in WWII could have been lost without significant damage to the citadel, then we can agree. If you formulate it as you do: “Armor is not needed, Fischer was right” - then absolutely not.
                      3. +1
                        15 January 2024 01: 04
                        Touche. I recalibrated my understanding of that battle.

                        I'll guess now. The poor Dakota almost drowned from the artillery fire of destroyers and cruisers, right?
                        There were no such cases with BB-60

                        Still, today is clearly not your day. Or you suddenly switched to ultra-fine mode.
                        If you formulate it as you do: “Armor is not needed, Fischer was right” - then absolutely not.

                        And after this they accuse me of cheating.
                        Armor is needed, but it is usually overrated.
                      4. 0
                        15 January 2024 01: 27
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Armor is needed, but it is usually overrated.

                        Let's learn another term, "healthy polarization of positions." Knocking out the control post has a bad effect on combat effectiveness; breaking through the citadel ends the ship's surface path.

                        So no, the idea of ​​​​protecting the boilers and cellars from the main battery of a potential enemy was quite reasonable. Another thing is that this did not guarantee anything for anyone.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I'll guess now. The poor Dakota almost drowned from the artillery fire of destroyers and cruisers, right?

                        No, I have completely different complaints about Dakota - you seem to know. She wasn't miserable.

                        So far, an intermediate conclusion - I remember a version of the battle that does not correspond to the report. There are 30+ hits of 14". It’s a well-known thing: we take the phrase “30 hits with calibers from 4 to 14 inches” and shorten it a little - perhaps it happened inside my head, perhaps outside. What actually happened - needs to be sorted out again.
                      5. 0
                        15 January 2024 18: 59
                        Quote: Engineer
                        If shells fly under the Prince's tall armor belt twice, this is a successful hit.

                        The British know in one...
                        Where did the second one fly to?

                        Quote: Engineer
                        If a shell lands in the conning tower, the armor of which was decided to be weakened based on the results of the WWII, and injures and kills a bunch of people and the commander is shell-shocked, this is a successful hit.

                        Not to the conning tower, but to the compass platform (upper bridge) - the conning tower was a couple of tiers below. Captain Leach was not injured at all.
              2. +2
                14 January 2024 21: 55
                Quote: Negro
                By the way, starting from the same Danish Strait, the battle with the gunless “prince”.

                The funny thing is that the “gunless prince” showed a slightly better hit percentage than the “Bismarck”...
                1. +2
                  14 January 2024 22: 03
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  The "gunless prince" showed a slightly better hit percentage than the "Bismarck"...

                  Well, the Germans’ five-year plan for luck had already been fulfilled.
          2. +1
            14 January 2024 18: 52
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Has anyone managed to survive a blow from a 13/15/16 inch blank without consequences?

            Yes, at least... Jean Bart. One 406-mm shell was reflected downwards by the main armor belt; both hits on the barbettes resulted in the shells ricocheting, with one shell being destroyed.
            1. 0
              15 January 2024 07: 05
              Yes, at least... Jean Bart. One 406 mm shell

              The fourth flew into the cellar of the SK, which could have ended in the death of Jean Bart if he had been completed and armed, according to the project

              SK's cellar was empty
              At least...

              1. Main battery shots are an extreme case, the consequences are like a lottery - even a small change in the angle of incidence of the projectile gave different results. As well as the place of its impact - right and left by a meter

              2. The belt is the thickest and simplest element of protection (like a woodpecker’s head, which never hurts). Getting into other parts of the ship, saturated with equipment, inevitably had consequences
              1. +1
                15 January 2024 09: 00
                Quote: Santa Fe
                The fourth flew into the cellar of the SK, which could have ended in the death of Jean Bart

                Or not - everything depended on a lot. In any case, three other hits were successfully repelled by armor
          3. 0
            14 January 2024 19: 51
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Has anyone managed to survive a blow from a 13/15/16 inch blank without consequences?
            Well, I don’t remember 13 and further, but I remember that during Tsushima the Japanese fleet received blanks without any particular results. And it seems that 12" was present there (on "Prince Suvorov", for example).
            1. +1
              14 January 2024 20: 39
              Quote: bk0010
              but what during Tsushima

              There is no need to remember Tsushima. There, firstly, they fired mainly high-explosive shells (we), secondly, the guns are very weak even in comparison with WWII, not to mention WWII, and thirdly, the Russian 331,7 kg BB is the same weight as 283 -mm ShiG projectile, only armor penetration is much worse, because the initial speed is much lower.
      2. +1
        14 January 2024 14: 02
        Reservation itself is not the only and not the main factor of any ship, so the conclusions of the respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk are absolutely correct.
    2. +2
      14 January 2024 20: 22
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And in general, to bring into the lead a type of ship that managed to lose 2 turrets in battle from being hit by one heavy shell - well, that’s it :))))

      Actually, the cellars of Tower B were drained and they continued to fire...
  14. +2
    14 January 2024 11: 22
    After all, even a fraction of those protective measures and techniques would allow modern cruisers to ignore attacks from naval drones.
    They just don’t build any more heavy cruisers and battleships. And no, a particle of measures from anti-ship missiles cannot be closed, and booking, which makes it possible to guarantee the retention of Harpoons, will raise the displacement and price of the ship so much that nothing will be spared for it, even a special warhead. Armoring necessitates an increase in the size of the ship (to simply ensure buoyancy) and requires the installation of fundamentally more powerful vehicles and fuel for them, so that “a third of the displacement for armor” is only the tip of the iceberg of armoring costs. They wrote somewhere that the amount of fuel that a battleship requires just to heat up its boilers is enough for a destroyer to last the entire voyage.
    Glad the author is back. It is a pity that the article does not address the issue of the death of this ship, when it was raked by a real battleship and its protection did not help it at all (the turrets were knocked out, the car was damaged, exposing it to attacks from destroyers).
  15. 0
    14 January 2024 11: 48
    Quote: ycuce234-san
    Then, for safety, the launch containers can be placed separately on different rods of the farm. Bombs and missiles and even mines will immediately lose their meaning, since they will skip through the farm, occasionally damaging individual elements. The farm ship will turn out to be “transparent” for weapons of destruction - a kind of mirage ship.

    Yes, this is precisely why it is so difficult to hit a railway bridge with a missile, you need to hit the upper or lower load-bearing belt of the truss; hitting the braces and struts of the truss, the road deck does not lead to the collapse of the entire structure,
    1. 0
      14 January 2024 13: 40
      Quote: agond
      you need to get into the upper or lower load-bearing belt of the truss

      Truss structures will make it possible to have both ship-based active and dynamic protection, because damage to peripheral structural elements from its operation can be made foreseen.
  16. bar
    -1
    14 January 2024 12: 29
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers

    If they lived on the islands like the British, Americans or Japanese, they probably would have done so. But their main wars were land wars; aircraft carriers had nothing special to do in them
  17. +1
    14 January 2024 12: 47
    Negro (1), dear, I agree with you: “No one had in mind a war at sea with Great Britain. Germany in the 30s was one of the minor naval powers, its size was France.” Even today we only know a little about the contacts between the British royal family and German leaders. About Hess's flight - only assumptions and conjectures. What contacts there were between German and British industrialists through Sweden are also just guesses. We know Operation Beijing, but here’s how and why Polish submarines on August 26.08.1939, 30 were completely ready for war - it’s still a fog today... Which of the German representatives approached representatives of the Republican Party in the USA in the XNUMXs and with what proposals - fog. Everyone knows about the work of the Ford plant in Germany. A little about cooperation between chemical industry companies. But less is written about cooperation between electrical companies.
    The Dutchman Michel (Mikhel) writes about Britain begging for ships from the United States, apparently forgetting that Britain had to defend colonies around the world. And further. Since the summer of 1941, 5 British submarines fought from the bases of the Northern Fleet. The 6th British minesweeper flotilla was based in Arkhangelsk and Yokangu and carried out the main fight against the German mine threat in the Northern Fleet in 1941-43. We kind of forget about the corvettes of the “Shakespearean” series, the destroyers “Active” and “Electra” in 1941 in the Northern Fleet.
  18. -2
    14 January 2024 13: 36
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    If the Germans, instead of building heavy cruisers and battleships, had paid more attention to aircraft carriers and submarines, the outcome of the war at sea and, as a result, on land, would have been completely different.

    But let’s imagine that the Germans did not build any battleships or cruisers at all, and would have spent all this a lot of money on the construction of defensive structures, but at the same time they widely used ship towers from unbuilt battleships, I think the Allies would not have been able to land troops
    1. -1
      14 January 2024 15: 58
      Quote: agond
      and this whole lot of money would be spent on the construction of defensive structures

      A combination of minefields and aircraft protecting them would be more likely to play there.
      The Germans had good aviation and sea mines could also be quickly removed and placed in the right place.
    2. +1
      15 January 2024 13: 31
      Quote: agond
      But let’s imagine that the Germans did not build any battleships or cruisers at all, and would have spent all this a lot of money on the construction of defensive structures, but at the same time they widely used ship towers from unbuilt battleships, I think the Allies would not have been able to land troops

      617 Squadron is your way out. smile
      Reconnaissance, reference to landmarks, local air supremacy - and on a clear day the 617th flies to place its “camouflage bombs” in the concrete blocks of German batteries. Just like they bombed the V-1 launchers and warehouses.

      Oh yes, in this case Phillips has a chance to gain and lose two Kings at once. Or Somerville has a chance not to hide in horror, but, having received a boost, go out into battle and fall under the distribution of the Kido Butai. smile
    3. 0
      15 January 2024 14: 56
      With such a length, be careful, this is a road to nowhere.
  19. 0
    14 January 2024 18: 36
    I personally cannot understand, gentlemen.
    An endless replay of events that happened a hundred years ago. From the series - if grandmother had something, she would be grandfather. All these ships have long since rested at the bottom. Anyway.
    And, in modern history, discuss the loss of fairly large ships? KChF...
    And, these losses do occur. This is relevant. This is interesting. And not murmuring around the Tirpitz and other Royal Oaks. For the hundredth time hi
    How did this happen?..
    1. +2
      14 January 2024 18: 47
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      I personally cannot understand, gentlemen.
      Endless replay of events that happened a hundred years ago

      It's called a hobby.
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      And, in modern history, discuss the loss of fairly large ships? KChF...
      And, these losses do occur. This is relevant. This is interesting.

      Write an article and we’ll discuss it. I wrote mine a long time ago https://topwar.ru/195191-gibel-raketnogo-krejsera-moskva-kak-prigovor-koncepcii-moskitnogo-flota.html
      1. +1
        14 January 2024 20: 58
        Thank you. I studied the article with interest.
  20. +4
    14 January 2024 18: 46
    A few notes about the play...

    Is it fair to call the Scharnhorst a battleship?

    The author needs to read the Anglo-German agreements of 1935 and 1937...
    And the question will disappear.

    The commanders of the German raiders considered that 283-mm guns would not be able to ensure quick reprisals against such an opponent.

    The author has a rather wild imagination: Directive 50/41 of 21.01.41/1/XNUMX directly prohibited engaging in battle with battleships, for this reason, in fact, Cap-XNUMX Kesar received a full panama punch from Lutyens for trying to distract the Remillis from the convoy...

    It was built in an era of universal passion for speed and received a power plant of enormous power (160 hp). This value exceeded the performance of the Bismarck power plant.

    The author is not very familiar with the materiel: the rated power of the “twins” power plant was 125000 hp. (Bismarck has 138000 hp). How many of the cars were squeezed out during testing is a separate topic.

    An absurd, at first glance, comparison of the Scharnhorst with the Alaska demonstrates that with a similar displacement (30-32 thousand tons), the Germans managed to build a ship with incomparably higher combat qualities.

    The author is distorting.
    The standard displacement of the Alaska is 27000 tons, the Scharnhorst is 31500 tons.
    It seems to me that if you told American designers that they had another 4500 tons of displacement for armor, then the Alaska belt would not be 227 mm. :)

    The main armor belt of the Scharnhorst had a thickness of 350 mm.

    320mm actually...

    Above the main belt there was an “upper” anti-fragmentation belt 45 mm thick, reaching the height of the upper deck.

    35 mm and the most interesting thing is that the Germans did not take it into account in the reservation scheme.

    On the other hand, this value corresponds to the thickness of the main armor belt of the cruiser Nuremberg (later Admiral Makarov).

    "Nuremberg" had a belt 50 mm thick.
    1. +1
      14 January 2024 19: 45
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      It seems to me that if you told American designers that they had another 4500 tons of displacement for armor, then the Alaska belt would not be 227 mm. :)

      Uh-uh.

      American designers generally had no restrictions. But if we add another 5 thousand tons to Alaska, we would see...

      we should have seen...

      Cruiser "Kronstadt"! Native!!!

      This, I agree, would be even more epic: if Alaska was assembled around the Essex cars, then the ship would have to be assembled around the Iowa cars. But with the armor of Sevastopol and the weapons of Sevastopol. A perfectly ridiculous ship.

      And the designers of Sharik were given 5 thousand tons relative to Dunkirk. Well, this is what they got...
      1. +1
        14 January 2024 19: 48
        Quote: Negro
        we should have seen...

        Cruiser "Kronstadt"! Native!!!

        No... Kronstadt was 3500 tons heavier, so the Americans had room to swing.
        1. -1
          14 January 2024 19: 49
          3500 thousand tons heavier than what?
          1. +1
            14 January 2024 19: 52
            Quote: Negro
            3500 thousand tons heavier than what?

            Well... We are spinning around the Scharnhorst, whose standard displacement in fact was 31500 tons. :)
            27000 (Alaska) + 4500 (Scharnhorst) + 3500 (Kronstadt)
            1. -3
              14 January 2024 19: 55
              I have a Kroni displacement of as much as 36K, plus the Soviet construction culture. Ultra-Washingtonian.
              1. +2
                14 January 2024 19: 56
                Quote: Negro
                I have a Kroni displacement of as much as 36K, plus the Soviet construction culture. Ultra-Washingtonian.

                36420 - this is according to project 69-I with the German Civil Code.
                1. 0
                  14 January 2024 20: 03
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  36420 - this is according to project 69-I

                  OK thanks.
    2. +1
      14 January 2024 19: 52
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      320mm actually...

      I'm sorry, is there a mistake here? 320 mm - Bismarck, but ShiG seems to have exactly 350 mm
      1. +3
        14 January 2024 19: 55
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I'm sorry, is there a mistake here? 320 mm - Bismarck, but ShiG seems to have exactly 350 mm

        No. In the drawings, the thickness of the slabs is indicated at 320 mm.
        1. +1
          15 January 2024 08: 57
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          In the drawings, the thickness of the slabs is indicated at 320 mm.

          Thank you!
          Of course, I have not the slightest reason not to believe the drawings, but it became interesting how the thickness of the ShiG GBP is shown in English-language sources. Rocked Anatomy of the ship, dedicated to Scharnhorst (in fact, the first thing that playful little hands reached laughing ) - it’s correct there, 320 mm.
          1. +2
            15 January 2024 11: 55
            Andrey, the thickness of the side armor of the Mikasa is slightly different than what is written in well-known sources. For example, the maximum thickness of the main belt is 222 mm, not 229 mm.
            1. +1
              15 January 2024 13: 32
              Alexey, yes, I already realized that there is a problem with sources in general; believe only in drawings and primary documents. If even domestic sources on domestic ships manage to make mistakes from time to time, what can we say about foreign ones. But... due to the lack of stamp paper, we write on simple paper :)))
          2. +1
            15 January 2024 19: 17
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Of course, I have not the slightest reason not to believe the drawings, but it became interesting how the thickness of the ShiG GBP is shown in English-language sources.

            There's actually a mystery there... :)
            In the American ONI 204 - German Naval Vessels of 1942, the thickness is indicated correctly - 12,6", that is, 320 mm.
            I first encountered the thickness of 350 mm in Breuer in 1970, it also appeared in the 1st edition of Dulin-Hartske (1985), in the second they corrected it to 320 mm.
            1. 0
              15 January 2024 21: 18
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              I first encountered the thickness of 350 mm in Breuer in 1970; it also appeared in the 1st edition of Dulin-Harzke (1985)

              Then it’s clear where 350 mm came from in domestic literature - Suliga has both of these books in the list of sources, the publication years you indicated crying
              1. +1
                15 January 2024 22: 02
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Suliga has both of these books in the list of sources, the publication years you specified

                In essence, Suliga’s book about the “twins” is a slightly completed translation of the chapter dedicated to “Scharnhorst” from Dulin-Hartske and repeating their jambs....
  21. 0
    14 January 2024 21: 27
    Thank you for the informative article, Author!
    With all these armored monsters, the story of the death of the Bismarck, which was stupidly cut off and then chewed up with everything it had, is noteworthy. Since the time of BB2 and with the advent of high-precision weapons and satellite reconnaissance (and perhaps even effective satellite guidance means), the possibilities for this have increased significantly, and combined massive attacks to deplete missile defense, even taking into account the warrant, can bring any giant into the kingdom of Neptune. Despite the fact that such colossus is very good. expensive, really, really expensive. Probably the era of monsters like "Yamato" has sunk into oblivion, at least until the appearance of a truly powerful LO.
  22. 0
    14 January 2024 22: 56
    Quote: Belisarius
    You are probably right about battleships, but in hindsight we are all strong; before WWII it was not at all obvious that supremacy at sea would be determined by the presence of aircraft carriers.

    It is believed that when insurance premiums rise to 25%, shipping stops. During World War II, this only happened once. After the sinking of Hood and continued until the sinking of Bismarck.
    In European waters, especially in the Mediterranean, battleships remained the basis of sea power until the end of active hostilities.
    Well, not everything is so simple.
    In general, what is the article about?
  23. +1
    14 January 2024 22: 59
    The vertical protection of the Scharnhorst was thicker than that of all battleships, including the legendary Yamato. The main armor belt of the Scharnhorst had a thickness of 350 mm.

    belay Uh... Ahhh... Hmm!
    Charles, vertical belt 350, Yamato, great inclined 410.
  24. +2
    14 January 2024 23: 14
    Gosh, what nonsense... "Littorio" looks especially good as a "Scharnhorst", ugh. Affftor, well, at least check the photo! This is Littorio:
    1. +1
      15 January 2024 20: 53
      this is Littorio

      I have to correct it, this is Roma
  25. +1
    14 January 2024 23: 20
    Having pierced the upper armored deck of the Scharnhorst, large bombs could travel another 5 meters before they had to meet the main armored deck of the battleship (the total weight of this structure is 3 tons).


    Cugenial. And now we find out that because of the stupid bevels, the Germans had to stick the lower deck very low, and as a result, many important combat posts were located BETWEEN the armored decks, and breaking through the upper deck easily put them out of action.

    But the Germans have prepared one more ace up their sleeve. Like other large German ships, the Scharnhorst received the so-called. carapace armored deck, which was attached with bevels to the lower edge of the belt. In other words, if the projectile nevertheless penetrated the main 350-mm belt, after a few meters a new obstacle stood in its path. The slab is 105 mm thick, and even located at a significant slope. This solution made it possible to repel any fragments or even the projectile itself, which had already spent the lion’s share of its energy penetrating the main belt.


    And if the shell fell under great angle, then he pierced the upper belt, broke through the thin deck, and the bevel behind it. And the bevel in this case became a problem, because it normalized the angle of impact of the projectile. Why, in fact, bevels went out of fashion.

    The total thickness of the horizontal armor (130–155 mm) did not look unusual compared to the indicators of its peers. Such indicators corresponded to the Italian “Littorio” or the British “King George V”. With the difference that the latter had a single (main) armored deck of impressive thickness (127–152 mm), while refusing to protect the upper deck and all the rooms that were located under it.


    Yes, because elementary logic and practice have said that one thick slab protects better than many thin ones with a total comparable thickness. The Germans WENT with armor protection in a terrible way, smearing tons of armor in thin layers. And they did this because, from old memory, they were afraid of battles in the North Sea in poor visibility, where light cruisers and destroyers would hit them.
    1. +1
      15 January 2024 08: 59
      Quote: Destroyermen
      And if the shell fell at a large angle, then it would pierce the upper belt, break through the thin deck, and the bevel behind it

      On German LKs, the height of the armored deck and GBP were balanced in such a way that at no reasonable angle of incidence of the projectile it could not pass through the upper belt at a bevel
      1. +1
        15 January 2024 11: 19
        Considering that the Germans considered firefights in the fog at 15 km to be “reasonable”...)
        1. +1
          15 January 2024 11: 51
          Absolutely right, by the way, at such distances the angle of incidence of a German 380-mm projectile is something like 10-11 degrees
          1. +3
            15 January 2024 12: 28
            By the way, I'm Fonzeppelin)
            1. +1
              15 January 2024 12: 58
              Quote: Destroyermen
              By the way, I'm Fonzeppelin)

              hi drinks I am glad to welcome you, dear colleague!
            2. +2
              16 January 2024 03: 58
              Quote: Destroyermen
              By the way, I'm Fonzeppelin)

              Wow, this is cool! And I am a fellow countryman, I shake hands, dear colleague!
        2. 0
          15 January 2024 19: 26
          Quote: Destroyermen
          Considering that the Germans considered firefights in the fog at 15 km to be “reasonable”...)

          In general, from 130 to 150 hectometers...
          The maximum distance was considered to be 200.
    2. 0
      15 January 2024 19: 24
      Quote: Destroyermen
      Cugenial. And now we find out that because of the stupid bevels, the Germans had to stick the lower deck very low, and as a result, many important combat posts were located BETWEEN the armored decks, and breaking through the upper deck easily put them out of action.

      You should first look at the drawings...
      The battery and armored (tweendeck) decks housed cabins, storage rooms, workshops and other utility rooms, damage to which had little effect on the battleship's combat effectiveness.
    3. 0
      15 January 2024 19: 34
      Quote: Destroyermen
      from old memory, they were afraid of battles in the North Sea in poor visibility, where light cruisers and destroyers would hit them.

      Rather, they made a choice in favor of their main naval theater of battle.
      1. 0
        15 January 2024 19: 50
        Quote: ycuce234-san
        Rather, they made a choice in favor of their main naval theater of battle.

        Exactly...Linear forces were not going to go further than the Faroe Islands in the war with France.
    4. 0
      15 January 2024 21: 02
      In fact, the upper belt of a 145-mm, when penetrated by a heavy projectile from a long distance, significantly normalizes it relative to its plane and at the same time deprives it of an armor-piercing cap. As a result, having pierced the upper belt, the projectile comes out at an unfavorable angle and is forced to interact with the bevel of the ogival part, which may not be enough to break through (not penetrate!) the armor. If the projectile is heavy enough (American batons), then there is a chance, but if the 15" British one - most likely not.
      1. 0
        15 January 2024 21: 16
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        If the projectile is heavy enough (American batons), then there is a chance, but if the 15" British one - most likely not.

        In fact, the British even have a small Talmud on this topic...
        They believed that the Tirpitz vehicles and cellars could be reached through the main belt from a distance of less than 17000 yards at a meeting angle of 90 degrees.
        1. 0
          16 January 2024 08: 43
          The British took into account only the main belt and the bevel against the knocked-out cork (in accordance with their views on its purpose). It is characteristic that during the experimental execution of Baden, they did not study the interaction of an armor-piercing projectile that passed through the belt with a gentle bevel. And they designated a free maneuvering zone for their ships based on the same principles, transposing the results of the action of their shells, adjusted for the difference in mass. So Hood’s tragedy could well have been repeated with the Prince if the battle had continued at a distance of 75 - 100 kb.
  26. 0
    14 January 2024 23: 23
    At the beginning of the 21st century, the story of the Scharnhorst is valuable as an example of what level of protection was achieved in the design of a surface ship. After all, even a fraction of those protective measures and techniques would allow modern cruisers to ignore attacks from naval drones. And they would not have sunk from single hits from “Harpoons” and “Neputuns”.


    Afftor, damn it, finally learn the materiel! Find "Guided missiles and techniques" from 1946 in the public domain, and find out that the Yankees tested the complete uselessness of ship armor against heavy cumulative warheads back at the end of WWII, on a full-size mock-up of a battleship's armor protection (composed of armor and deck plates with air gaps as high as deck). The experimental bomb went right through him.
    1. +1
      15 January 2024 08: 50
      complete uselessness of ship armor against heavy cumulative warheads

      Are there any missiles capable of carrying heavy cumulative warhead weighing a ton?
      Guided missiles and techniques" 1946

      By the way, that report does not inspire much confidence.

      Why? Because its results contradict 100500 observed cases recorded at training grounds and in combat situations
      1. -1
        15 January 2024 11: 18
        As American practice has shown, 454 kg is more than enough. The main point is not in the mass of the charge, but in the geometry of the funnel and the mass of the resulting “pestle”.

        As for “does not inspire confidence” - who exactly? Otherwise, a bunch of anti-ship missiles with high-explosive cumulative warheads (including almost all Soviet ones) disagree with you.
        1. 0
          15 January 2024 11: 51
          Otherwise there’s like a bunch of anti-ship missiles with high-explosive cumulative warheads (incl. almost all Soviet)

          What a cunning man you are. Shoot at Russian ships with Russian missiles (Soviet design)
          As American practice has shown,

          This is not practice. This is a report with strange and absurd results

          Practice is, for example, hitting a tank with anti-tank missiles. If only godfather ammunition had such penetrating power as described in the 1946 report, all tanks should be penetrated through by Pturs, two tanks placed side by side

          (a real well-known fact: a cumulative jet is dangerous at a short distance behind armor and quickly loses its properties in open space)
          And this is just one example.how absurd is the description of that experiment with the LC model
          1. 0
            15 January 2024 12: 24
            Show me an ATGM with the warhead size of a 1000-pound aerial bomb, and then your ranting about tanks will make some sense. :) For reference; tanks with homogeneous steel armor died out precisely because it no longer saved them even from small cumulative ATGMs.

            Well, yes, we are talking about a damn impact core weighing tens of kilograms. What kind of “weakening of the cumulative effect” are you talking about? This is not a thin stream, it is a massive “pestle” of solid metal, flying at a speed of about kilometers per second. Do you seriously imagine that this mass will dissipate in the air like that?!
            1. 0
              15 January 2024 19: 45
              Quote: Destroyermen
              This is not a thin stream, it is a massive “pestle” of solid metal, flying at a speed of about kilometers per second. IN

              In the world of ships, everything is different than in the world of armored vehicles. On the scale of the ship, the pestle will make a small “hole” relative to its size, with local damage, even a lot of them will be harmless if there is a struggle for survivability. Therefore, the ship’s armor should rather protect against fragments and dampen shock waves and vibrations that are harmful to mechanisms.
              In those days there were no polymers and plastic yet, but modern ship armor is more of an energy-fragment-absorbing composite of metal plates and ceramic and polymer layers
              1. 0
                15 January 2024 20: 13
                In the world of ships, everything is different than in the world of armored vehicles. On the scale of the ship, the pestle will make a small “hole” relative to its size, with local damage, even a lot of them will be harmless if there is a struggle for survivability. Therefore, the ship’s armor should rather protect against fragments and dampen shock waves and vibrations that are harmful to mechanisms.

                And now I ask a question - what is under your armored deck?

                Correct answer: These are the vital parts of the ship. There are vehicles, key control posts, ammunition, etc. Pressed tightly together in a narrow armored citadel. A hole punched there is almost guaranteed to be an exploding boiler, a turbine that has destroyed the engine room, collapsed fire control equipment, or (the icing on the cake) detonated ammunition.

                Yes, there is some the likelihood that the cumulative “drop” will not hit anything vital. And you will end up with destroyed superstructures, broken radars, fires and destruction (which will significantly reduce the combat value of your ship), since the high-explosive effect has not gone away. But it’s frankly not great even for anti-ship missiles of the 1960s. Which, for all their stupidity, were excellent at aiming at the middle of the body. Modern anti-ship missiles like LRASM can easily hit a specific point on the ship, thereby guaranteeing the destruction of vital parts.
                1. 0
                  16 January 2024 06: 00
                  Quote: Destroyermen
                  Pressed tightly together in a narrow armored citadel.

                  The main danger for a ship is the sea itself. Therefore, even in those days, everything was duplicated and carried into hermetically sealed compartments. There were always several stokers, for example. It was the armor that prevented the firing of land mines and making huge holes in the sides for water; it was necessary to shoot with penetrating blanks with a small area for receiving holes in the side and minimal possible damage inside.
              2. 0
                15 January 2024 20: 15
                In general, I’ll tell you a seditious thing, but since the 19th century it seemed obvious; if the armor does NOT rather protect against major intended hits, then there is no point in the armor. It only makes the ship heavier, forces vital parts to be squeezed together (rather than spreading them apart for rational removal throughout the hull) and makes repairs more difficult. Unarmored ships have actually demonstrated quite impressive survivability more than once - remember the Samuel B. Roberts, whose keel was actually broken by a mine explosion, but the crew “pulled out” the frigate.
            2. -1
              16 January 2024 01: 20
              Show me an ATGM with the warhead size of a 1000-pound aerial bomb

              Show me a tank with 300 mm side armor?

              The scale with the tank is different - the results are exactly the opposite, this is not observed close, even with ammunition that has been designed in our time

              https://topwar.ru/218805-obstrel-tanka-t-55-kumuljativnymi-snarjadami-iz-granatometov-raketnyh-kompleksov-i-sau.html
              this is a massive “pestle” made of solid metal,

              No. The concept of a pestle has nothing to do with it at all; this part is used to form the chum. jets, along with the funnel shape
              Do you seriously imagine that this mass will dissipate in the air like that?!

              As 100500 examples show, the armor effect of a cumulative jet is small, it turns into a hot fine powder and is dangerous only if it directly hits equipment, ammunition and crew bodies. Therefore, lucky tanks can withstand several hits, with armor pierced
              tanks with homogeneous steel armor

              A tank is not a ship - the tank has a compact fighting compartment, penetration can lead to damage to the crew and ammunition. This is why cumulative ammunition is so popular against armored vehicles.
              1. 0
                16 January 2024 06: 36

                No. The concept of a pestle has nothing to do with it at all; this part is used to form the chum. jets, along with the funnel shape


                It’s clear that you are not familiar with the terms “impact core” and “explosive-formed penetrator”. Please learn the materiel first, then rant.
                1. 0
                  16 January 2024 08: 06
                  It is clear, the term "impact core" and "explosive-formed penetrator"

                  This means there are no more questions with cumulative ammunition.

                  Now you've jumped to the shock core topic. This is the stupidest thing that can be used against constructive protection ship

                  Let me explain the idea. Breaking through a ship's defense is not a problem; a lot of means are capable of this, incl. and cumulative b/p, and shock core. The problem with all these means is the insignificant armor effect, on the scale of the ship

                  The goal is not to make the ship completely impenetrable. The goal is to degrade the design of the ammunition to such an extent that they can no longer cause significant damage. So that instead of 200 kg of land mines or “Kormoran-2”, which explodes inside and destroys all compartments, the missiles would have to carry various types of armor-piercing combat vehicles, which are unable to cause significant damage behind the armor

                  Or they will be very large missiles = reduction in the number of carriers, fewer numbers in a salvo, simplifying tasks for the ship's air defense

                  As for the shock core, the idea arose to combat armored vehicles, where the main thing is to penetrate the defense. In that place, with a high probability there will be either fuel, or ammunition, or crew
              2. 0
                16 January 2024 07: 14
                Well, the icing on the cake is the description of the Kormoran-2 warhead from West Europe Report No.2160 dated June 15, 1985:

                The warhead is merely lengthened; the technology is otherwise unchanged.
                The explosive mass is increased by 50 percent, and the number of layers
                welded into the casing is increased from 16 to 24.
                At detonation. these layers are transformed into metal plugs in accordance
                with the principle of the so-called P-load. With a velocity of about 2,000
                meters per second, the missiles penetrate up to 16 ship walls. The ignition
                device is being redeveloped with the objective of reducing production costs.


                Translating into Russian, the Kormoran-2 warhead carries 24 forming funnels, which upon detonation form cumulative “nuclei” that fly apart at a speed of 2000 meters per second and are capable of penetrating up to 16 bulkheads. Let me note, these are SMALL funnels. And it is clear that we are not talking about any “erosion of the jet” due to the absence of the jet. It's a CORE, not a jet, and it has absolutely no intention of dissipating into the air.
                1. -1
                  16 January 2024 08: 10
                  Translating into Russian - the Kormoran-2 warhead carries 24 forming funnels, which upon detonation form cumulative “nuclei”,

                  All this will simply fall apart when it hits the armor protecting the side or deck of the ship

                  Exoset warheads failed even when hitting ordinary metal structures (examples of damaged ships - Sheffield, Glamorgan, Stark)
                  1. 0
                    16 January 2024 08: 26
                    All this will simply fall apart when it hits the armor protecting the side or deck of the ship


                    Hmmm. That is, the fact that it is a matter of setting the fuse - instantaneous operation (to destroy armor), or with a delay (to penetrate an unarmored body) - you also don’t understand? And you undertake to reason with aplomb, hmm...
                    Exoset warheads failed even when hitting ordinary metal structures (examples of damaged ships - Sheffield, Glamorgan, Stark)


                    And how many armor-piercing shells crumbled on the armor, ricocheted, did not work, and? You didn’t think that to penetrate armor, the cumulative fuse is set to instantaneous operation, no?

                    P.S. Well, I hope that at least you won’t repeat the nonsense about “jet dispersion.” For here it is very clearly stated in the description of the warhead that a cumulative core of a small mass successfully pierces a dozen and a half bulkheads with compartments between them.
                    1. -2
                      16 January 2024 08: 39
                      That is, it is a matter of setting the fuse

                      And this is not a question of setting the fuse

                      This is a question of the strength of the warhead. Do you think by chance that the filling of armor-piercing shells did not exceed 2,5-3%. Why did the designers reduce the explosive content so much?

                      The warheads of modern missiles will simply fall apart upon impact. Exoset contained 50 kg of explosives with a warhead mass of 165 kg
                      here it is very clearly stated in the description of the warhead that a cumulative core of a small mass successfully pierces a dozen and a half bulkheads with compartments between them.

                      First she needs to get inside the ship
                      Or do you propose to blow yourself up from the outside)))
                      1. 0
                        16 January 2024 08: 51
                        This is a question of the strength of the warhead. Do you think by chance that the filling of armor-piercing shells did not exceed 2,5-3%. Why did the designers reduce the explosive content so much?


                        Hmm... Now try to think. What does an armor-piercing warhead have to do with it? We are talking about a HIGH-EXPLOSIVE CUMULATIVE, in which the armor-piercing effect creates a cumulative core formed by an explosion. Why should the warhead itself go deep somewhere? It, like any normal landmine, explodes without slowing down upon contact with an obstacle - and at the same time sends down an impact core (or nuclei, if there are many craters).

                        Well, really, can we finally learn the materiel? I’ll tell you the basics.
                      2. 0
                        16 January 2024 09: 06
                        What does an armor-piercing warhead have to do with it?

                        You yourself showed the exoset warhead

                        To which there was a response with arguments why the warheads of modern missiles are not capable of penetrating armor. They don't have the strength for this

                        Separately, about the cumulative effect - you rush around with this concept as if it has a magical destructive effect.. As if you don’t understand, that this is always a necessary measure. To make even a tiny hole in a tank’s armor, because that’s enough for tanks. And the cumulative effect is not good for anything else. Only overcome obstacles

                        In order to destroy metal structures weighing thousands of tons (ship compartments) you need explosives, a lot of explosives
                        and at the same time sends down the impact nucleus (or nucleoli, if there are many funnels).

                        That is, figuratively speaking, you propose to sprinkle shot on an elephant

                        Instead of blowing up a ship from the inside with hundreds of kg of explosives, knock and poke balls on the armor
                      3. 0
                        16 January 2024 09: 59
                        So let’s write it down: according to SantaFa, the ship is empty from the inside, there are no vehicles, no combat posts, no ammunition cellars) Inside the armored citadel of Scharnhorst, there were probably greenhouses for growing dandelions.

                        And yes, you are right that the cumulative core is inferior in armor-piercing effect to the armor-piercing chamber) It’s stupid to argue with this. But what you stubbornly don’t understand is that “less effective” does not mean “ineffective.” The cumulative core has other advantages; firstly, it overcomes armor much more effectively (because it does not ricochet), secondly, it is successfully combined with a landmine)
                      4. -1
                        16 January 2024 10: 17
                        So let’s write it down: according to SantaFa, the ship is empty from the inside,

                        Why are you twisting my words and inventing something that doesn’t exist?

                        Finally get your act together. Can’t you add 2+2, compare and draw conclusions?

                        A) if there is no armor, there is no need for cumulative, it only causes harm. This specific ammunition contains less explosive and causes less destruction with the same caliber

                        In open space, the cumulative weapon is of no use; it exists only in the thickness of the barrier (armor, reinforced concrete). Therefore, cumulative screens are installed on tanks - thin panels at a short distance from the main armor. This air gap prevents the spread of the cumulative jet, destroying it

                        B) it can’t be combined with a landmine.

                        As a result, the presence of armor would force designers to spend part of the warhead on overcoming the obstacle (for example, increasing the mechanical strength of the warhead shell or using a tandem with a cumulative charge). All this leads either to an increase in the mass of the rocket and a reduction in its salvo. Or to reduce the explosive content in the main warhead, which will not allow causing serious damage to ships
                      5. 0
                        16 January 2024 19: 33
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Do you think by chance that the filling of armor-piercing shells did not exceed 2,5-3%.

                        In fact, it was even better to use a magnesium mixture for the tracer instead of explosives in order to better understand the results of the hits. 3 percent is of little use.
                  2. 0
                    16 January 2024 08: 33
                    Let me remind you how Soviet high-explosive cumulative warheads worked. A large high-explosive warhead with an instant fuze, in the front of which there is a forming funnel sloping downwards. Since Soviet anti-ship missiles were mainly designed to hit the deck from a gentle descent, the funnel was directed more or less vertically downwards. And when the warhead was detonated (which in itself destroyed everything unarmored very well), it directed a MASSIVE drop of hard cold metal into the ship, flying at 2-3 km/s. That is, several times faster than an artillery shell fired at point blank range.

                    The warhead, for example, of the Italian "Otomat" is designed in a similar way (although they also added small incendiary submunitions there, so that there were three in one: the high-explosive effect of the main charge, a cumulative jet down the ship, and small bombs merrily scattering in all directions, generously creating additional fires)
                    1. -1
                      16 January 2024 08: 49
                      Let me remind you how Soviet high-explosive cumulative warheads worked.

                      Let's start with the fact that high-explosive cumulative is an absurd concept, just like saying “anti-aircraft mortar.” Things that are directly opposite in their functions and purpose. The cumulative effect requires careful handling and will not occur if the initial conditions are violated.

                      Finally, the cumulative effect is unnecessary against unarmored targets (which are all ships since the late 50s)

                      Soviet anti-ship missiles were equipped with a powerful high-explosive directed warhead
                      directed a MASSIVE drop of hard cold metal into the ship, flying 2-3

                      You invented it yourself

                      In reality, it would be a meaningless action, a hole with insignificant dimensions compared to the size of the ship - instead of truly dangerous explosions of hundreds of kg of explosives or large fragments of an exoset warhead (cormoran)
                      1. 0
                        16 January 2024 08: 58
                        Let's start with the fact that you just signed a complete misunderstanding of the materiel) Do you even understand how the cumulative effect is achieved? So: it is obtained from the collapse of a funnel by converging shock waves... that’s right, an explosion of explosives surrounding the funnel. The rest of the energy of which... yes, goes out, and works as a wonderful landmine.

                        “Violation of initial conditions” - and WHERE did you see it? What difference does it make cumulatively, where the energy goes later? after collapse of the funnel? Yes, none; the jet/core has already been ejected.

                        Finally, the cumulative effect is unnecessary against unarmored targets (which are all ships since the late 50s)


                        Why did they become unarmored? :) And here we look at the tests of 1945...

                        Congratulations, you have successfully refuted yourself.
                        In reality, it would be a meaningless action, a hole with insignificant dimensions compared to the size of the ship - instead of truly dangerous explosions of hundreds of kg of explosives or large fragments of an exoset warhead (cormoran)

                        Is the ship empty inside? Or does he have cars, boilers, combat posts and ammunition magazines inside? Don't measure ships by your own head, please)
                      2. 0
                        16 January 2024 09: 26
                        The rest of the energy...

                        Cumulatives do not have a high-explosive effect and are not used anywhere except to overcome armor and fortifications

                        In your understanding, the cumulative part of the RCC would mean spending the bulk of the energy on the formation of a cumulative jet that no one needs. If there is no protection on the ship, it is most convenient to destroy its combat posts and vehicles with a landmine containing as much explosive and fragments as possible for these purposes.

                        This is precisely what armor plays against, in order to force missiles to overcome the defense, ultimately reducing the possibility of causing damage to the ship
                        Why did they become unarmored? :)

                        With the advent of missile weapons, the size of ships was reduced several times. The missile cruiser of the 60s - in terms of displacement, was like the leader of the destroyers of the Second World War. Did Tashkent or Mogador provide much protection?
                      3. 0
                        16 January 2024 09: 53
                        The curtain can be lowered on “cumulatives do not have a high-explosive effect.” The comrade is so at odds with the materiel that he does not understand; the cumulative crow does not care at all how many explosives are still placed behind it. And, apparently, he sincerely believes that the shock wave does not propagate spherically, but magically all flows into a funnel, like water into a bathtub drain.
                      4. 0
                        16 January 2024 10: 05
                        I sincerely believe that the shock wave does not propagate spherically, but magically all flows into a funnel, like water into a bathtub drain.

                        Yes, that's exactly what happens

                        here you go, enlighten yourself
                        http://forums.airbase.ru/2004/12/t30917--fugasnyj-effekt-kumulyativnykh-boepripasov.html

                        And at the same time, pay attention to the link with damage to tanks when fired with cumulative shells. In one of the comments above, where the photos are attached. The hit from the RPG only scratched the skating rink in the place where the chum formed. jet. It is necessary to explain what the consequences would be if hit by a high-explosive grenade?
                      5. 0
                        16 January 2024 17: 10
                        The most idiotic thing you could do was provide a link to the topic without bothering to read it yourself...

                        High-explosive action of a shaped charge = 100% high-explosive action of an explosive charge equal in mass to a shaped charge.
                        If the short circuit is surrounded by a fragment-forming housing, then the fragmentation effect is 100% = the fragmentation effect of the same piece of explosive, except in the direction of the cumulus notch.
                        Cumulative excavation takes nothing away and adds nothing


                        Everything is clear with you, dear comrade ignoramus. :)
                      6. 0
                        25 January 2024 17: 41
                        The most idiotic thing you could do

                        Someone said something stupid. And you chose this passage that seemed appropriate to you. Completely ignoring the rest of the material. And common sense

                        Landmine explosion = cumulative; the hole in the armor is apparently formed from dark energy. Excess energy came out of nowhere

                        Secondly, a lower explosive content in a warhead of the same caliber (the need for a funnel, lining)

                        All these sacrifices, when creating a cumulative weapon, are not for firing at unarmored targets. In such cases, a land mine or fragmentation bomb is more effective.
  27. +1
    14 January 2024 23: 39
    Those who really thought through the protection of battleships were the Italians. The Littorio had virtually no weak points in its armor. Their armor protection was carefully modeled and arranged in such a way that at any distance, at any heading angle, enemy shells were met by the equivalent of the maximum thickness of armor. And even the Yamato would not be able to break through their double inclined belt at all angles.
    1. 0
      15 January 2024 19: 29
      Quote: Destroyermen
      And even the Yamato would not be able to break through their double inclined belt at all angles.

      It just worked out well. :)
      When the Italians realized that they were not able to roll monolithic slabs of cemented armor, they came up with an armored concrete sandwich.
      1. 0
        15 January 2024 20: 16
        Let's just say that the result turned out much better than the same Germans)
        1. 0
          15 January 2024 20: 43
          Quote: Destroyermen
          Let's just say that the result turned out much better than the same Germans)

          Unlike the Germans, the vertical armor protection of the Italian Littorio-type armored vehicles could not be verified, so we can only theorize...
  28. +2
    15 January 2024 05: 58
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    The Mahan Doctrine had long since been covered with dust.

    The Mahan Doctrine (with a number of amendments and additions), in general, still remains relevant.
  29. 0
    15 January 2024 08: 10
    Many thanks to the Author for an interesting article, that is, for a new approach for me - to find out the most armored ship in history.

    IMHO, the question of whether Scharnhorst is a battleship or not has already lost its meaning in the Second World War, there were practically no fleet battles in linear formation, and the largest naval battles in the Pacific Ocean were decided by aviation and aircraft carriers. Bismarck's campaign is still not Tsushima or Jutland. The British were chasing the Italians - that’s probably all the linear artillery battles, maybe I’ve forgotten something. If we talk about the legal side of this question, then the answer was given even before the war.

    IMHO, if the Germans, long before the war, had invested not in superships, but in submarines, the effect would have been greater. The main task at sea was the blockade of Britain, the goal of the Kriegsmarine was not military, but merchant ships, for which there were very few boats. When the production of boats increased by 1943, the Allies had already formed convoy systems and, most importantly, had radars, including aviation ones, which neutralized the danger of submarines. In addition, the United States was already helping Britain, which did not happen before 1942. 200 "sevens" in 1939 - and everything would have been different. IMHO, the Germans were not preparing for war with Britain, but considered France as their enemy at sea.
  30. 0
    15 January 2024 14: 21
    It seems to me that the battleships of the Russian-Japanese War model had an even greater percentage of armor in their total displacement, having an ineffective heavy power plant.
    1. +1
      15 January 2024 15: 09
      Quote: goose
      It seems to me that battleships of the Russian-Japanese War model had an even higher %

      The same battleships of the Borodino type - 33,5% armor of the normal displacement. You can convert it to standard, but you know, there won’t be much difference
      Quote: goose
      having an ineffective heavy power plant

      Quite the opposite - the power plant, of course, was not very efficient in terms of efficiency, but the WWII-era armored vehicles required machines that were many times more powerful. so the share of EC as a whole was more/less comparable
  31. 0
    15 January 2024 15: 34
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The same Scharnhorst who received a critical hit, which predetermined his death, with a 356-mm shell.


    Can you provide a link to the source in the studio? A very bold statement...
    1. 0
      15 January 2024 16: 12
      In addition to hits in the hull, there could have been explosions of torpedoes or mines under the keel of the ship, how effective was the armor of battleships in this regard?
      1. +1
        15 January 2024 16: 25
        Negatively effective) Drove the ship to the bottom)
    2. 0
      15 January 2024 18: 08
      Quote: Desperado
      Can you provide a link to the source in the studio?

      Do you mean a link? This is a well-known fact. Well, at least start with Suliga, or something. "Battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau" Page 101-102
      1. 0
        April 19 2024 10: 33
        Well known fact? To whom? Sulige? Link to the original source please. Memoirs of one of the 29 survivors... While there is no such primary source, anything can be considered, for example, a technical failure of a power plant. What is this habit of passing off speculation as truth?
        1. 0
          April 19 2024 10: 38
          Quote: Desperado
          Memoirs of one of the 29 survivors...

          Suliga relied on German sources, they are listed in the list of references - use them for your health.
          1. 0
            April 19 2024 10: 41
            We moved out beautifully, so let’s write about the “well-known fact” - not confirmed. Because those sources have already been analyzed on tsushima, there is only a reference to the British and their assumptions.
            1. 0
              April 19 2024 12: 29
              Quote: Desperado
              so let’s write about a “well-known fact” - not confirmed

              So let's write about a well-known fact - it will not be refuted.
              In general, there is a book by Bush, F.O., reviewed by retired captain Helmut Gissler, a former navigator and first mate of the Scharnhorst, “who made available important materials, such as the report of the commander of the German flotilla, the report of the English commander, newspaper reports, nautical charts and a battle diagram, and also, after reading the manuscript of the book, gave the author information about his years of service aboard the Scharnhorst." We read from him
              In the 4th tower, a message was heard over the ship's intercom:
              – Torpedo hit in the first boiler room. Speed ​​8 knots.

              Only at that moment there could be no torpedo hit - it could only have been a shell from Duke. There is Alf Jacobsen, who dug deeply into this topic, and points out exactly the classic version - a 356-mm shell hitting the glacis.
              If you want to refute, no question. Just something serious please
              1. 0
                April 20 2024 23: 47
                Let's go deeper, where did Jacobsen get the information about the projectile? Isn't it from Suliga?
                Shell fragments pierced the double bottom, causing the compartment to flood to the floor level.[32]

                Let's see what's behind link 32?
                32 - A more detailed description than the author’s of this fatal episode for the Scharnhorst is taken from: Suliga S.V. “Battleships of the Scharnhorst class.”

                Where did Suliga get this from? Isn't it Dulin and Hartske?
                There is a report about a torpedo hit, there is information about the partial flooding of the 1st boiler room, then after 20 minutes the speed is restored to 22 knots. As one of the Tsushima old-timers correctly noted, most likely the protection on the boilers of the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms was triggered by the shock of the hull from a torpedo hit.
                In the case of a shell and removal of the steam pipelines of 1 boiler house, such damage cannot be repaired in 20 minutes, while the fragments of the shell also managed to penetrate the double bottom 1,7 meters? It was probably made of cardboard?
                1. 0
                  April 21 2024 09: 28
                  Quote: Desperado
                  A more detailed description than the author’s of this fatal episode for the Scharnhorst is taken from: Suliga S.V. “Battleships of the Scharnhorst class.”

                  I had an electronic copy with broken links, so I didn’t notice this point.
                  Firstly, the translator replaced the original text with a more detailed one. That is, it was not the author who took something from Suliga, but the translator who decided to paraphrase the author. And it is possible to assume that the translator added on his own behalf what the author did not have, only with reference to the author’s original.
                  Secondly, at about 18.00 there could not have been a torpedo near Scharnhorst. There was no one to fire torpedoes at the ship, which was at least 18 km away from Duke.
                  Thirdly, interpretation
                  Quote: Desperado
                  There is a report about a torpedo hit, there is information about the partial flooding of the 1st boiler room, then after 20 minutes the speed is restored to 22 knots. As one of the Tsushima old-timers correctly noted, most likely the protection on the boilers of the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms was triggered by the shock of the hull from a torpedo hit.

                  Most likely this was the case, and at that moment the speed dropped to 8 knots. Only now it was possible to start only the boilers of the 2nd compartment, and the boilers of the 1st compartment were damaged, which is why out of 12 boilers only 8 remained
                  “I looked at the speed indicator and it showed 22 knots. The situation was hopeless. I understood that if we couldn’t increase the speed, then we wouldn’t be able to escape.”
                  Wilhelm Gödde was closer to the scene:
                  “The third turbine stopped working due to the steam line being broken. The chief engineer reported that he would try to repair the damage in twenty to thirty minutes. I heard Hintze say, "Engine room officers and men, thank you for your excellent work."

                  As for me, it is more than obvious that if the boilers of the 1st section had been put into operation, then Scharnhorst simply would have had no reason to drop the speed. And so - everything is logical, Scharnhorst gives 26 knots minimum (or more, it’s difficult to judge here) leaves Duke, gets damaged, 2/3 of the boilers stop, speed drops to 8 knots, 1/3 of the boilers are returned to service, speed rises to 22 knots .
                  Fourthly
                  Quote: Desperado
                  Moreover, the shell fragments also managed to penetrate the double bottom 1,7 meters? It was probably made of cardboard?

                  Fragments of a 356 mm projectile easily penetrate 40-50 mm armor, and maybe even thicker. The double bottom, made of ordinary steel, is absolutely no obstacle for him (it is not continuous at 1,7 m - there are two sheets that can be pierced enough, the top and bottom.
  32. 0
    15 January 2024 21: 23
    By the way, what didn’t catch my eye initially. On the picture.
    A very strange location of the cable routes - in front of the armored cabin. On the ceiling. I would still understand - at least for her. But this arrangement leads to severe power loss. And, there are some pretty brutal cable routes there, though. request
  33. 0
    15 January 2024 23: 00
    Are there mathematical models of ships to simulate combat in different combinations of attacking and defending forces?
    This model includes the armor of a modern ship and how this will affect its combat stability. Otherwise, all thoughts about the benefits of booking are speculative.
    1. 0
      16 January 2024 16: 58
      Sailors from active ships reacted negatively to the idea of ​​armoring. True, this was before the death of "Moscow".
      Their arguments boil down to the fact that anti-ship missiles will still sink the ship if they reach their target. Moreover, during a complex attack, some of the missiles disable defensive weapons and radar with striking elements, some act on the hull like a semi-armor-piercing projectile, and some fire in the water under the bottom, breaking the ship with a hydraulic shock.
  34. 0
    16 January 2024 16: 06
    A warship is created to solve a certain range of tasks, which determines its navigation area, armament, speed and level of protection.
    In 1922, shipbuilding, at the behest of politicians, turned away from the main path of improving the combat qualities of battleships, limiting their standard displacement to 35 tons, and even declaring a moratorium on the laying of new ships for 000 years. This time gave rise to many projects of economy class battleships, of which only Dunkirk and, what is completely incomprehensible, its sister ship Strasbourg were realized.
    German battleships of the Scharnhorst type, through difficult metamorphoses, were adapted for an extremely narrow task - combat with new French battleships on enemy communications, which gave rise to a huge imbalance between weapons and defense, which is actually described in Oleg’s article.
    This was followed by a whole fireworks display of “large cruiser” projects, of which only the project of American ships of the “Alaska” type was implemented. In fact, battlecruisers of the Kronstadt type were designed for the same tasks in the USSR in 1939, but they were not completed.
    As for the Scharnhorst-class battleships, despite their achievements in 1940 - 1941, they cannot be recognized as successful ships. And the point here is not only in the armament, which does not allow it to engage in battle with other battleships, with the exception of the Dunker, but in the overweight of the ship as a cruiser, due to which its running capabilities no longer serve as a guarantee of safety against high-speed battleships.
    As an illustration, I will give two tables of weight loads - the original one from the monograph by S.V. Suliga, and the mathematical modeling of the ship in the Scharnhorst hull on a scale of 16/15. The speed, cruising range and level of protection for both ships are the same. The only difference is in the armament regarding the main caliber turrets; three three-gun turrets with 283 mm guns have been replaced by three three-gun turrets with 350 mm guns. Main caliber ammunition has been reduced from 1350 to 900 shells and charges for them.

    Initial data on the loads of Scharnhorst-class battleships
    Frame................................................. 7961 t
    Crew and provisions........................ 1837 t
    Mechanisms........................................ 2909 t
    Armament and ammunition...................5401 t
    Reservation................................ 14250 t
    Standard displacement... 32358 t
    Fuel and reserve water............. 6345 t
    Total displacement............... 38703 t

    Load table for hull scaling 16/15

    Frame................................................. 9355 t
    Crew and provisions........................ 1900 t
    Mechanisms........................................ 3310 t
    Armament and ammunition................... 7215 t
    Reservation................................ 16215 t
    Standard displacement..... 37995 t
    Fuel and reserve water............. 7230 t
    Total displacement............... 45225 t

    With this mathematical recalculation, the total displacement is 46970 tons, which determines the reserve for increasing defense or weapons at 1745 tons.
    1. 0
      16 January 2024 18: 24
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      what is completely incomprehensible is his sistership “Strasbourg”.

      Why not understand?
      No matter how funny it sounds, it was laid against the Littorio type... :)

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      which created a huge imbalance between weapons and defense,

      The imbalance was created by the genius of the Austrian artist: the sailors themselves wanted at least 2x3 or 3x2 - 355 mm or 3x2 - 380 mm, but the former did not work out “due to the fault” of the Krupps - they simply were not ordered such guns and the development of a new gun did not fit into a reasonable timeframe for ship construction , and with the latter - due to the fault of the Fuhrer, who wanted to play diplomacy when the games ended in 1938 and the replacement of artillery was finally agreed upon ("Scharnhorst" - autumn 39 - spring 40, "Gneisenau" - spring-autumn 40 -th), it turned out to be too late.
      1. 0
        16 January 2024 20: 26
        Actually, Maxim, I know this story from Maisky’s memoirs, among others. Everything is not so simple there: the sailors did not want new pickpockets, realizing that two Counties could fatally damage a pocket battleship, and three would certainly sink them. In addition, the death sentence for any pickpocket was a meeting with the Dunkirk or any British battlecruiser. So they stood for equality in caliber and proposed a battleship with three three-gun turrets with 330 mm guns. The British at that time were rushing around with the idea of ​​a new agreement of 25 thousand tons + main caliber - 12". So the artist tried to fit into this theme, especially since the British agreed to seven! Battleships of 26 thousand tons each, but with a main caliber no higher eleven".
        The parallel development of the project for battleships F and G assumed a 350-mm main caliber, so it made sense to close the D and E project, but the artillery backlog and diplomatic curtsey to Great Britain outweighed common sense. And so - there was a real chance, instead of two sub-battleships and two super battlecruisers, to build five battleships, declaring their displacement to be 30750 tons each. I think this would even more convince the British to look for a solution in 14" caliber.
        1. 0
          16 January 2024 20: 41
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          So they stood for equality in caliber and proposed a battleship with three three-gun turrets with 330 mm guns.

          Exactly. I was mistaken: in Raeder’s request to Krupp it was 330 mm.
      2. 0
        16 January 2024 20: 41
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        No matter how funny it sounds, it was laid against the Littorio type... :)

        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        The imbalance gave birth to the genius of the Austrian artist: the sailors themselves wanted a minimum of 2x3 or 3x2 - 355 mm or 3x2 - 380 mm

        Uh
        The Murzilkas tell both stories differently.

        Dunkirk was originally planned as a couple. Strasbourg was not a "response" to Littorio, but simply a frantic attempt to correct Dunkirk's main flaw in a rapidly deteriorating situation.

        As for the ball, its story is exactly the opposite. At first - even before the VFGN - the sailors simply wanted an improved Deutschland, with armor raised to the level of at least a heavy cruiser. But the appetite comes with eating: 18 thousand tons, which were planned to be delivered in 10, turned into 26, turbines appeared, a third turret, no longer cruising armor at all, and then, with the construction of 26 thousand tons, they completely turned into 31. Naturally, the project with With such a story, I couldn’t help but get 14" in glacis. It’s fate.

        As for diplomacy, in principle, Britain legalized German battleships in 35, so it was possible to install Bismarck turrets during completion. But they somehow gave up on this. I’m not sure if this is a question for VFGN.
        1. +1
          16 January 2024 20: 53
          Quote: Negro
          Dunkirk was originally planned as a couple.

          Exactly, but there was no money...

          Quote: Negro
          Strasbourg was not a "response" to Littorio, but simply a frantic attempt to correct Dunkirk's main flaw in a rapidly deteriorating situation.

          For some reason, Dumas believes that he was: the money was allocated precisely when the Italians announced their intention to lay a pair of 35-thousanders.

          Quote: Negro
          18 thousand tons

          Actually 19700... :)
          With turboelectric power plant and 220 mm belt
          They were laid down in January 34, then construction was stopped because the 1935 agreement fell through and they were re-mortgaged in 35.
          1. 0
            16 January 2024 21: 20
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            because the 1935 agreement fell through and was re-mortgaged in 35.

            Ugums. It turns out that the VFGN has done its part of the work, but here are some questions for the sailors.
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            For some reason, Dumas believes that he was: the money was allocated precisely when the Italians announced their intention to lay a pair of 35-thousanders.

            That’s all true, but there’s a question of emphasis. The answer to Littorio was, of course, Richelieu. The laying of Strasbourg was rather detrimental to the cause: its corps delayed the laying of Jean Bart for a year and a half. But on the other hand, again, the sailors could not resist the temptation to sneak in another battleship, albeit a “small” one. As long as they give, we must take, and keep up with the rest.
    2. 0
      16 January 2024 20: 27
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      replaced by three three-gun turrets with 350 mm guns.

      Quite a strange idea. The Germans did not have such a caliber and there was little point in making it. The standard in the northern seas has long been 380 mm. And your alternative Scharnhorst 38 thousand tons of standard turns into a very real Bismarck.
      1. 0
        16 January 2024 20: 40
        The Germans had this caliber and fired it on the Western Front during WWI. It was intended for unfinished Mackensen-class battlecruisers. And during the initial development of the pickpocket project, there was an option with one three-gun turret of this caliber. In the design of battleships D and G, this caliber was initially the favorite.
        The battleship is not mine, this is pure mathematics and logic. The 381 mm caliber is justified only in the Littorio and Richelieu projects. And Bismarck (battleship D) had a standard displacement of 41700 T, which required widening the hull to 36 m and adequately reducing speed.
        1. 0
          17 January 2024 11: 19
          In the design of battleships D and G, this caliber was initially the favorite.

          Sorry, typo. Of course, in the project of battleships F and G - the future Bismarck and Tirpitz. The final decision to switch to the 380 mm caliber was made in May 1935.
      2. +1
        16 January 2024 20: 43
        Quote: Negro
        The Germans did not have such a caliber and there was little point in making it. The standard of the northern seas has long been 380 mm

        Well, there was a prototype: 35 cm/45 SK L/45
        1. 0
          16 January 2024 21: 22
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          there was a prototype

          Since Germany signed up to Washington's restrictions, it would be strange to do 14" when 16" was allowed.
          1. 0
            16 January 2024 22: 23
            Quote: Negro
            Since Germany signed up to Washington's restrictions, it would be strange to do 14" when 16" was allowed.

            Politics again... The Germans decided not to tease the British and not to make the main battery larger than that of the potential enemy (380 mm).
            Here the 2nd London also appeared with its 35000 tons and 14" main battery, and then the Anglo-German Treaty of 37. Moreover, the British even allowed the Germans to build an above-limit LK N, but on the condition that the main battery would be no more than 14". The Germans agreed, but also on the condition that the potential enemy would not build a LC with a main battery of more than 14"...
            1. 0
              16 January 2024 22: 56
              14" Bismarck? 14" N? I haven't heard of this. What probable enemy will not build larger than 14"? Richelieu?
              1. 0
                16 January 2024 23: 08
                Quote: Negro
                14" Bismarck?

                No, 14" battleship N...

                Quote: Negro
                I have not heard about this.

                But he wasn’t there: things didn’t go further than talk.
                From the quota of the 35 agreement, the Germans had approx. 30000 tons.
                The British made a “broad gesture”: they allowed the Germans to build a 35000-ton battleship with a 14" main gun, it was implicitly assumed that it would be a Bismarck-class battleship, but with 355 mm artillery.

                Quote: Negro
                What probable enemy will not build larger than 14"? Richelieu?

                France and the USSR...
                1. 0
                  16 January 2024 23: 20
                  Is the USSR a likely enemy of the Reich? On the sea? Under the agreement between Britain and Germany, will the French stop building 15" battleships?

                  Some extremely strange story. 14"/35K battleships existed in contracts only from the spring of 36 to the spring of 37. As luck would have it, it was during this period that both Bismarck and Jean Bart were laid down. And I have not heard that the replacement of their main battery was discussed.

                  Where did you get this story from?
                  1. 0
                    16 January 2024 23: 55
                    Quote: Negro
                    Is the USSR a likely enemy of the Reich?

                    I would say formal or official...
                    Since it was the construction of the Project 26 cruisers that became the formal reason (indicated in the note handed over to the British) for the completion of the KRL K and L as heavy ones.

                    Quote: Negro
                    Under the agreement between Britain and Germany, will the French stop building 15" battleships?

                    You thought of this yourself... The Germans simply left themselves a loophole so as not to reduce the caliber of the main battery.

                    Quote: Negro
                    14"/35K battleships existed in contracts only from the spring of 36 to the spring of 37.

                    Just during the development of the Anglo-German agreement of 1937.

                    Quote: Negro
                    As luck would have it, it was during this period that both Bismarck and Jean Bart were founded. And I have not heard any discussion about replacing their main battery.

                    Again, you have imagined everything in a strange way. No one was going to change the main battery of these ships....

                    Quote: Negro
                    Where did you get this story from?

                    From Whitley: he writes about the possibility of building battleship N according to the Bismarck project, but with a 14" main gun...
                    1. 0
                      17 January 2024 01: 35
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      From Whitley: he writes about the possibility of building battleship N according to the Bismarck project, but with a 14" main gun...

                      OK, I'll clarify, thanks. A lot of strange things happened under Stanley Baldwin, but this story looks like some kind of drug addiction.
                  2. 0
                    17 January 2024 11: 27
                    This story is quite well known. The French withdrew from the Washington Treaty in January 1935 and the British convened a conference in the fall of 1935, to which the USA, Japan, France, Italy and Germany were initially invited. But then Germany was kicked out from the table, and Italy and Japan left the conference. But France, the USA and Great Britain signed up to limit the main caliber of battleships to 14" (356 mm). In 1936, this bargaining took place with France regarding the main caliber of the laid down ships.
                    1. 0
                      17 January 2024 14: 06
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      This story is well known

                      Khe khe.

                      In the version of history that is known to me, the London Treaty of 1930 provided for a new conference in 35. In anticipation of this conference, the Japanese announced that they were unsubscribing from this mailing list.

                      In the meantime, the British, French and Americans signed London 36. The French immediately said that they had signed it, but they didn’t care at all - and, so that no one had any doubts, they pledged Jean Bart, which did not meet the characteristics of the agreement , nor according to the displacement limit. The Japanese and Italians acted more honestly and simply refused to sign it.

                      As for bargaining with France, there was none. The Americans immediately made it clear that if there was no Japanese signature, there would be 16". No one was particularly interested in France. And certainly not in Britain, which has 13 15dm battleships and 2 16dm battleships, to ask someone for 2-3 battleships for 15 ". The times were no longer the same for greyhounds like that.
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2024 14: 50
                        A fairly accurate emotional assessment.
                        But in fact, both the British and the French realized that they were simply abandoned by the future hegemon. So it began with the goal of organizing a “European security system”. Hence the bilateral negotiations between Great Britain and the USSR, Germany, Italy and France with the aim of concluding an Intra-European Agreement. And the latest burp was an attempt to push through a limit for battleships of 40 thousand tons as a European standard, although the USA firmly assured everyone that they were moving to a limit of 45 thousand tons.
                      2. 0
                        17 January 2024 15: 47
                        Uh

                        I would not attribute the holiday of disobedience in Europe to the corrupting influence of the Americans. They have their own potential opponents and their own atmosphere and their own great artists. According to rosy (in a good sense) plans, the war was supposed to be with Japan and Britain. So it’s a good thing they haven’t found out about Yamato yet, otherwise they’ll give us 4 pieces of 18” Montan and they’ll go crazy.
                      3. 0
                        17 January 2024 18: 25
                        I remember there were supposed to be 5 battleships of this type. But that's not the point. The Americans famously led Europe to a new war.
                        But for the "Montanas" - the option with nine 18"/47 Mark "A" in three three-gun turrets is much more interesting. At the same time, it became possible to shove the Iowa power plant into the hull of the battleships BB-67 - BB-71 and increase the stroke to 30 knots (or a little less) I think that even in a daylight battle the Yamato would have no chance against such a ship.
                      4. 0
                        17 January 2024 19: 45
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        I remember there were supposed to be 5 battleships of this type.

                        You are right, I deprived the Americans of something.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        But according to the Montanas, the option with nine 18"/47 Mark "A" is much more interesting

                        Yes, in principle, they managed without Montan.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        I think that even in a daylight battle the Yamato would have no chance against such a ship.

                        Yamato didn't have much of a chance anyway (hypothetical fight of Kurita vs OS 37).
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The Americans famously led Europe to a new war.

                        This is for Samsonov.
                      5. 0
                        18 January 2024 10: 16
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The Americans famously led Europe to a new war.

                        This is for Samsonov.

                        Well, frankly, they offended the poor Yankees!
                        After the First World War, Woodrow, given the sky-high role of the United States, presented at Versailles his vision of a world under American control. However, Lloyd and Georges, more sophisticated in diplomacy, fooled the American dupe around their finger and imposed their world order on the world. In retaliation, the United States did not sign the final treaty, but entered into a separate agreement with defeated Germany, which became the basis for preparing a new war in Europe with the aim of establishing US hegemony. It is not for nothing that the Treaty of Versailles was called the “20-Year Truce.”
                      6. 0
                        18 January 2024 10: 21
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        I think that even in a daylight battle the Yamato would not have
                        chances against such a ship.

                        Yamato didn't have much of a chance anyway (hypothetical fight of Kurita vs OS 37).

                        Yes, I’m not talking about influencing the course of the war. Everything is clear here.
                        It’s just interesting to compare the fighting qualities of hypothetical opponents and evaluate engineering solutions, and not at all to write another alternative.
  35. 0
    16 January 2024 23: 07
    What appearance could a modern protected ship have?

    This boat lives well even without armor with its capabilities of monitoring the situation and intercepting targets))
    After all, even a fraction of those protective measures and techniques would allow modern cruisers to ignore attacks from naval drones.

    Modern cruisers in normal countries have normal naval bases with normal protection and booms, where RU toys with explosives simply cannot reach. And to carry out an attack somewhere in the vastness is something from the realm of unscientific fiction. This is exclusively coastal fun for stationary targets.
    And they would not have sunk from single hits from “Harpoons” and “Neputuns”.

    Your reservation scheme is late and is 20-30 years behind modern times. All modern rockets, take
    the same French-British Scalps/StormShads attack from a dive, and their side armor is up to the star. The Black Sea Fleet headquarters will not let you lie))
    1. 0
      17 January 2024 06: 55
      Your reservation scheme is late and is 20-30 years behind modern times. All modern rockets, take
      the same French-British Scalps/StormShads attack from a dive, and their side armor is up to the star.


      Yes, in fact, the absolute majority of anti-ship missiles either attack from a dive, or are able to jump in front of the target to hit the deck.
      1. 0
        25 January 2024 17: 29
        Yes, in fact, the absolute majority of anti-ship missiles either attack from a dive, or are able to jump in front of the target to hit the deck.

        Everything is exactly the opposite

        You will not find a single photo of a damaged ship with a broken deck.