Why "Coalition-SV" was left with one gun barrel

119
Why "Coalition-SV" was left with one gun barrel
Proposed layout of the double-barreled "Coalition-SV"


Twin "Coalition-SV"


Sergei Chemezov, general director of the Rostec state corporation, said that at the end of December a pilot batch of Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled howitzers will appear at the front. From the entire host of the latest Russian weapons It is long-range artillery that is most in demand in special operations. With the advent of the Coalition-SV, Russian artillerymen finally have a “long arm” for counter-battery combat. There is no desire to get too far ahead, but a self-propelled gun may well depreciate the value of the vaunted imported artillery - PzH 2000, Caesar and others. With a sufficient level of reconnaissance and the number of self-propelled howitzers, of course. The 70-kilometer range of the Coalition-SV is more than enough for such tasks.




The Germans also played with the double-barreled idea on land vehicles. Pictured is Versuchsträger 1, which could become new a tank Leopard

One of the most interesting decisions during the development of the Coalition-SV self-propelled gun theme was the use of two artillery barrels. At the stage of formulating the tactical and technical specifications, it was the “double-barreled gun” that was the priority. For land vehicles, such large-caliber guns are paired extremely rarely. The experienced German tank Versuchsträger 1 comes to mind, which had two 105 mm guns placed in a horizontal plane. Due to its turretless layout, this vehicle looked the least like a tank—more like an anti-tank self-propelled gun. And now the “Coalition-SV”, conceived in the form of a 152-mm double-barreled gun. Why did domestic engineers need to create such difficulties, which were eventually abandoned?

First of all, the double-barreled configuration means an unprecedented fire density for this class of gun. Of course, the Coalition-SV would never be able to fire from two barrels at the same time. But the time interval between the first and second shot remained minimal. A pair of guns is especially useful for operating a self-propelled gun in fire raid mode. The shells travel one after another towards the target along different trajectories and hit it at one point in time. The name “Coalition” largely reflected the essence of a self-propelled howitzer, in which two guns work together. The rate of fire also naturally increased - according to some data, the double-barreled shotgun included in the 2A88 howitzers could fire more than 16 rounds per minute at the enemy. That is, more than two times more than Msta-S. At long distances, this made it possible to leave the place of opening fire even before the moment the first projectile fell on the target.

A special operation is in many ways a unique armed conflict. Just look at the changed tactics of using tanks and the widespread drones-kamikaze. Neither one nor the other was predicted by the General Staff until February 2022. But in the concept of using artillery, both sides of the conflict guessed the development of events 100 percent. The war will be won by long-range and high-precision howitzers - the rest will fall victim to counter-battery warfare. “Coalition-SV” seemed to be developed for the realities of a special operation. Unfortunately, she comes to the front only at the end of the second year of the special operation. And not in a double-barreled version.


As you know, the Coalition-SV is equipped with a Doppler radar to track the flight path of a fired projectile. This allows you not to use a sighting shot, that is, not to inform the enemy in advance that you intend to work on him. All corrections are promptly made to the on-board fire control system, and the second projectile flies towards the target along the “correct” trajectory. The double-barrel layout squared this advantage. The second gun made it possible not to waste time reloading after the first sighting shot. Under a certain set of circumstances, the second projectile hit the target earlier than the first and much more accurately.

Struggle of layouts


There is not much official information about the Double-Barreled Coalition, but even the meager images of experimental vehicles speak of the difficulties that the designers had to face. As you know, the combat compartment of the Coalition-SV is uninhabited - all the work is done by automation using pneumatic drives. Two 152-mm howitzer guns forced a noticeable increase in the dimensions of the cabin and, accordingly, the final mass of the product. Even taking into account the noticeable weakening of the chassis and wheelhouse armor, the double-barreled howitzer turned out to be overweight. The issue could have been resolved by completely reconfiguring the combat vehicle, but this significantly increased the final cost. As a result, a self-propelled howitzer with noticeably smaller dimensions of the fighting compartment went into production. From a hundred meters, not every Bandera member will be able to distinguish the “Coalition-SV” from the “Msta-S”. And this is good.

The advantages of the double-barrel configuration of the Coalition-SV from the past include a large resource of guns. Simply because, on average, a howitzer will use each barrel twice as much. In a conflict like SVO, this is especially important. The fact is that all long-range guns of NATO countries quickly exhaust their barrel life. The reason is not the low quality of the steel, but the extreme working conditions. The standard Msta-S fires a conventional projectile at a range of 25 kilometers, while the German PzH 2000 fires at ten kilometers more. But such range requires sacrifice. A significant increase in the pressure of powder gases to achieve the required firing range causes accelerated wear of the barrel. In conflicts like the Afghan one, such features are not critical, but in Ukraine the PzH 2000 works to its limits, and it wears out very quickly. All these shortcomings will not bypass the Russian Coalition-SV, although, of course, we do not know all the intricacies of preparing 2A88 gun barrels at the factory. But definitely the “double-barreled gun” would go to the rear much less often to replace guns.

Any duplication is always a twofold increase in survivability. Two barrels made it possible not to leave the battle for premature repairs due to damage to one. When working intensively on special operations, this advantage is important.


Why, with all the advantages, was the double-barreled configuration of the Coalition-SV abandoned? According to available information, they decided to leave one barrel back in 2010. The first and most important reason is the high cost of a dual automatic loader and placing two guns on one chassis. We won’t know the exact prices for a long time (if they ever become available), but the costs of developing and finalizing the vehicle into series production were not entirely affordable for the defense budget. But one could live with this if cost were the only drawback of the paired arrangement.

As mentioned above, the weight of a vehicle with two howitzers could be 55 tons or more. And these are already difficulties with transporting the vehicle using standard tank carriers of the Russian army. The noticeable complication of the Coalition-SV automatic loaders with two barrels cannot be removed from the list of minuses. On the one hand, the survivability of the vehicle under fire is higher, on the other hand, more failures in a complex system will be expected. As well as the requirements for the qualification level of repair teams. Two barrels and two automatic loaders left less space for transportable ammunition, which required special logistics. Loading machines for double-barreled self-propelled guns must travel more often, which increases the vulnerability of the equipment. Taking into account the fact that the crews would also expend shells faster than on a traditional self-propelled gun, the situation became completely uncomfortable. One cannot but take into account the good visibility of the two barrels for the enemy - on the battlefield such “Coalition-SV” would become priority targets.

A compromise was found, and “Coalition-SV” was sent for a special operation with the usual one, but long-range weapon. But this does not mean that the interesting and beautiful idea with a 152 mm double-barreled shotgun has gone into oblivion. The designers will definitely continue to work with the concept, but at a different technological level. And then a true revolution awaits the battlefield.
119 comments
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  1. +16
    2 January 2024 04: 27
    The first and most important reason is the high cost of a dual automatic loader and placing two guns on one chassis at once....... the weight of a vehicle with two howitzers could be 55 tons or more. And these are already difficulties with transporting the vehicle using standard tank carriers of the Russian army. The noticeable complication of the Coalition-SV automatic loaders with two barrels cannot be removed from the list of disadvantages.
    recourse Yes, the toy did not take off. It's a pity. But the weapon must be as reliable as a shovel. request
    1. -9
      2 January 2024 13: 47
      Maybe everything is simpler.
      Decisions about 1 barrel, not 2 barrels, and other simplifications were made because of the price. Over the past 2 years there has been a need to improve the characteristics, BUT the price and quality are pressing even now.
      Commissions and auditors count money. Only mothers have living sons.
    2. -6
      2 January 2024 13: 59
      -But this does not mean that the interesting and beautiful idea with a 152-mm double-barreled shotgun has gone into oblivion.
      Being a pioneer is ALWAYS hard.
      But the name COALITION of an installation with ONE barrel no longer sounds like that.
      1. 0
        2 January 2024 18: 54
        But this does not mean that the interesting and beautiful idea with a 152 mm double-barreled shotgun has gone into oblivion
        Why not then reduce the caliber for the double-barreled system? For example up to 122 mm. Or does this have no prospects, even with a significant increase in shooting accuracy?
        After all, then the mass, swing when shooting, etc. would be reduced.
        1. +4
          2 January 2024 20: 50
          range and power of the shot
        2. -2
          3 January 2024 03: 23
          Quote: abrakadabre
          Why not then reduce the caliber for the double-barreled system? For example up to 122 mm. Or does this have no prospects, even with a significant increase in shooting accuracy?

          I also immediately had this question. Naturally, range and power would decrease. But, as SVO practice has shown, sometimes it is necessary to place shells close, but more often. At the same time, for such purposes it would not be necessary to greatly increase the length of the barrel so as not to overload the chassis. Self-propelled guns with 122 mm. a dual weapon would be very useful, an excellent replacement for the Carnation. Yes, and there would be a chassis for it.
          But, unfortunately, our military leadership decided to completely abandon 122 mm. shells. I think time will show the fallacy of this decision.
          1. +7
            3 January 2024 14: 53
            The shells must be placed not close and more often, but precisely in place, and then no “more often” will be needed.
            1. +1
              4 January 2024 04: 23
              Quote: Petrov-Alexander_1Sergeevich
              The shells must be placed not close and more often, but precisely in place, and then no “more often” will be needed.

              Sometimes it is close and more often needed. Imagine a situation where there are a couple of dozen enemy soldiers in the forest. And they do not sit in one dugout, but are scattered. Then it won’t be possible to be “more precise” - you won’t fire a shell at everyone. But firing several fragmentation shells over an area can solve this problem.
              1. +1
                4 January 2024 21: 33
                There are cluster munitions for that.
          2. +1
            8 January 2024 10: 47
            Well, the Coalition was not conceived for close combat, but for shooting at targets up to 70 km. For “closer and more often” there are other means. What's the point of turning a long-range weapon that has a range advantage over Western weapons into something that already exists?
        3. +3
          3 January 2024 18: 35
          The "Coalition" was created precisely as a long-range weapon. And all kinds of “Krasnopoli” and other active-missile projectiles exist exclusively in the 152 mm caliber. Not because they wanted it so much - but because the jet engine and control system at Krasnopol weigh almost as much as a whole 122-mm projectile. And even with ordinary shells, thanks to the long barrel, resistant to reinforced charges, it will be able to shoot 30-40 kilometers.
          Purely theoretically, it is possible to create an ARS for the 122 mm caliber - but either the power of its warhead will be like that of a 76 mm gun, or the range will not exceed a dozen kilometers (which, in principle, multiplies the value of such a weapon by zero). Probably because of this, the 120-125 mm caliber in the modern Russian army has become the caliber of mortars, anti-tank guns and MLRS.
          P.S. The idea flashed to mount a 130 mm naval gun on a tank chassis - only it weighs more than the 2A88 from the Coalition...
          1. +1
            4 January 2024 15: 48
            There are 122 mm Kitolov
            (carries useful information)
            1. +1
              6 January 2024 15: 32
              Yeah, with a range of up to 9 km.
              Almost half as much as the ancient D20 howitzer gun of 152 mm caliber with a conventional projectile...
              1. 0
                20 January 2024 20: 22
                What load should you shoot at to get 9?
        4. 0
          3 February 2024 14: 17
          Why not, if only because, not reduce the caliber because each caliber has its own tasks, its own advantages and disadvantages too!
      2. 0
        11 January 2024 16: 42
        Quote: knn54
        But the name COALITION of an installation with ONE barrel no longer sounds like that.

        The “sound” of the name is not an important thing. The main thing is that for a single-barrel installation, there is twice as much ammunition. If damaged, there is a double loss of battery efficiency. In conditions of counter-battery warfare, two single-barrel installations are separated, which complicates the determination of a specific firing point.
    3. 0
      3 January 2024 20: 38
      There are different shovels in our lives.
      1. +1
        5 January 2024 12: 52
        Yeah, a rotary excavator for example, but in this case they meant “reliable as a Kalashnikov assault rifle,” but that’s why it’s a shovel and not a Kalashnikov...
  2. +33
    2 January 2024 04: 47
    They did the right thing by leaving the option with one gun! It's much more reliable! I worked on repairing the ship's AK-130, they made it very complicated, so it shuts up all the time! A single barrel would be better!
    1. +6
      2 January 2024 10: 56
      The AK130 must, among other things, fire at air targets, but here you can never have too many guns.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +8
    2 January 2024 05: 00
    Shooting from two barrels along different trajectories. Still, I think the trunks could not swing separately from each other
    1. +6
      2 January 2024 19: 05
      Quote: Gagrid
      Shooting from two barrels along different trajectories.

      After this, you don’t have to read the article any further. And what you managed to read, don’t take it into your head.
      1. +3
        3 January 2024 02: 42
        After this


        So understand, you’re not even familiar with Msta, so what can we talk about the “double-barreled gun” -
        1. -1
          3 January 2024 20: 44
          Quote: Rus2012
          After this


          So understand, you’re not even familiar with Msta, so what can we talk about the “double-barreled gun” -

          Are you an artilleryman? Have you ever performed such tricks - firing at a target with different charges in one series? Without zeroing and without adjustment? How are you getting on with creating the “lunar landscape”?
          Or, as usual, an opinion from the couch?
          1. +2
            3 January 2024 20: 58
            Are you an artilleryman?

            look carefully at the transparencies, they are from the developer Msta. laughing
            My colleagues are still working there...
            1. +1
              3 January 2024 21: 15
              Addition
              Back in January 2021, it became known that the Coalition-SV was being tested in the “barrage of fire” mode. The self-propelled gun fired six shots, but the shells hit one target at the same time due to firing from different angles.
              1. +1
                7 January 2024 19: 17
                Quote: Rus2012
                Addition
                Back in January 2021, it became known that the Coalition-SV was being tested in the “barrage of fire” mode. The self-propelled gun fired six shots, but the shells hit one target at the same time due to firing from different angles.

                What kind of target? Its area?
                I dare to suggest that it was a circle (of a decent radius) at a training ground (pre-sighted) at a distance of 10-15 kilometers. I'll be surprised if it's 30-35 km.
                In real combat work, this is only possible against an area target.
          2. +2
            4 January 2024 22: 30
            Quote: Captain Pushkin
            Quote: Rus2012
            After this


            So understand, you’re not even familiar with Msta, so what can we talk about the “double-barreled gun” -

            Are you an artilleryman? Have you ever performed such tricks - firing at a target with different charges in one series? Without zeroing and without adjustment? How are you getting on with creating the “lunar landscape”?
            Or, as usual, an opinion from the couch?

            I am amazed at the level of ignorance and backwardness of some commentators. Why did you even forget here then if you don’t know anything? Let it be known to you that the “barrage of fire” mode is no longer a wondrous miracle and is implemented on all modern self-propelled NATO and other howitzers/guns. Propelling charges are formed in advance and are aimed automatically using a proprietary computer. If you are an old artilleryman, then I congratulate you, but sometimes you need to be a little interested in progress! Our aerodynamicists still love to say that, according to calculations, a beetle cannot fly, but it flies, not suspecting that in the USA, with the help of slow motion and a computer, it has long been proven that everything is in order with aerodynamics, our surgeons have no idea about modern long-absorbable suture materials and they sew the aponeurosis with nylon, as under Stalin, because of which people suffer for the rest of their lives. And so on and so forth! We live in an information vacuum and our education is *oops!
            1. +1
              7 January 2024 19: 07
              Quote: running man
              Let it be known to you that the “barrage of fire” mode is no longer a wondrous miracle and is implemented on all modern self-propelled NATO and other howitzers/guns.

              Translated for jackets - pour shells over areas. Suitable for supporting and covering attackers. The Red Army actively used the “fire shaft” in the second half of the Second World War. The concentration of artillery reached 120-200 guns per kilometer of front, and sometimes even over 300...
              But what does this have to do with the counter-battery fight that Coalition fans are leaning on?
              And why does it need a range of 70 km?
              This task could be better handled by 122mm howitzers and 120mm mortars. But is a “barrage of fire” with the consumption of hundreds of shells necessary when attacking a platoon strong point? And now in most “strong points” there are generally 5-10 fighters.
              It is more rational to “put” the required number of mines and shells into the trenches.
              Or did I misunderstand you and you intend to solve some fire mission at a range of 50-60 km with a “barrage of fire”? Reveal its essence quickly, don’t languish.
            2. 0
              8 January 2024 13: 06
              Propelling charges are formed in advance,


              "Coalition-SV" itself automatically prepares for firing - according to a given program, it selects the type of projectile, forms a propellant charge, installs a fuse, and aims the gun.
              Unlike artillery systems of previous generations, the ammunition of the Coalition-SV does not contain cartridges, and the volume of explosive required for a shot is collected from individual burning cylindrical powder modules - caps. The further away the target is, the more modules need to be charged, and the number of caps is calculated automatically.

              The caps used in the Coalition-SV are not bags of gunpowder. These are compressed powder cylinders of round cross-section for caseless equipment.

              Ignition by microwave electric charge. A computer aiming system and automatic loading system selects the charge from N-cylinders and the angles of the impact trajectory in real time...
              From open sources - RG, TASS
          3. +1
            3 February 2024 14: 27
            And what about Murzilka - Young Technique, besides opinions and comments from sofas of different models and calibers, there is something else - but the level here is not the same and the audience is not the same - mostly pioneers, pensioners and graduates of mental hospitals!
  4. +1
    2 January 2024 05: 02
    Has a radar to determine the flight of a projectile. But he doesn’t control the projectiles. Shooting is needed.
    1. +5
      2 January 2024 13: 09
      But he doesn’t control the projectiles. Shooting is needed.

      Knowing the trajectory of a flying projectile from a single batch, it’s easy to adjust the flight parameters of the second one, don’t you think?
      1. +1
        3 January 2024 21: 07
        Quote: Rus2012
        But he doesn’t control the projectiles. Shooting is needed.

        Knowing the trajectory of a flying projectile from a single batch, it’s easy to adjust the flight parameters of the second one, don’t you think?

        Can you tell me the error in determining the radar point of impact of a projectile using notches on the trajectory?
        1. +2
          3 January 2024 21: 29
          Can you tell me the error in determining the radar point of impact of a projectile using notches on the trajectory?


          whoever posts the answer is 10 years old... bully
          But it is known
          “Firing accuracy has been increased thanks to an onboard complex for automatically adjusting shooting based on the results of its own trajectory measurements,” Kovalev told TASS.
          1. +2
            3 January 2024 22: 22
            For example, a standard 155-mm HE projectile has a circular probabilistic deviation of 200 to 300 meters at medium firing ranges. Those. at 40 km the deviation will increase to 400-600 meters. The radar will help us detect a deviation in the region of 700-1000m at a distance of 70 km.
            I can’t imagine for what purpose the customers of such a weapon are planning to fire an unguided projectile at a range of 70 km. At least with radar, at least without radar.
            The barrel resource will end before hitting the target.
            The accuracy of the radar determination of the point of impact of a projectile using notches on the trajectory, among others, is influenced by a parameter that is difficult to take into account - the elevation/decrease of the point of impact relative to the gun.
            1. 0
              3 January 2024 23: 09
              I can’t imagine for what purpose the customers of such a weapon are planning to fire an unguided projectile at a range of 70 km. At least with radar, at least without radar.


              Record-breaking sniper howitzer - self-propelled gun "Coalition-SV"

              https://tvzvezda.ru/news/201512200743-m9mq.htm
              Special projectiles, active-reactive, adjustable. Integration into the HANDS circuit
              A computer robotic complex that takes into account shooting conditions and enters corrections for all conceivable errors...
              1. +1
                4 January 2024 00: 45
                Quote: Rus2012
                A computer robotic complex that takes into account shooting conditions and enters corrections for all conceivable errors...

                The dispersion ellipse will not change depending on whether you have introduced or not introduced corrections for charge temperature, average wind, derivation, weight sign, barrel wear, trunnion angle, etc. Corrections can only bring the point of intersection of the ellipse axes closer to the target.
                That. that the projectiles are active-reactive, only increases the dispersion ellipse, because additional errors appear (for example, a spread in the moment of switching on a jet engine).
                “Corrected” is not at all the same as “managed”.
    2. +11
      2 January 2024 13: 11
      As you know, the Coalition-SV is equipped with a Doppler radar to track the flight path of a fired projectile. This allows you not to use a sighting shot, that is, not to inform the enemy in advance that you intend to work on him. All corrections are promptly made to the on-board fire control system, and the second projectile flies towards the target along the “correct” trajectory. The double-barrel layout squared this advantage. The second gun made it possible not to waste time reloading after the first sighting shot.

      Most likely the author himself did not understand what he wrote...
      In essence, zeroing takes place, but adjustments to the decision of the second shot are introduced based on tracking data of the trajectory of the first projectile, and not based on the results of its fall.
      1. +2
        2 January 2024 16: 24
        Most likely the author himself did not understand what he wrote

        Yes, I just started reading and already fell out.
        Something revolutionary happened there in the tactics of using tanks. An alternative Leopard has been dragged in here.
        It turns out that the fire distance has been increased to protect against counter-battery work; this only became clear in the Northern Military District.
        In general, the author would read what he writes. So far the essay has a weak C grade.
      2. +1
        2 January 2024 22: 29
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Most likely the author himself did not understand what he wrote...
        In essence, zeroing takes place, but adjustments to the decision of the second shot are introduced based on tracking data of the trajectory of the first projectile, and not based on the results of its fall.

        You are absolutely correct in noticing this! And then, when I read this, my eye began to twitch... I thought that I was getting old and that I couldn’t understand smart things anymore! fool
      3. 0
        4 January 2024 16: 35
        At the end of the above quote it even directly talks about shooting)
  5. -12
    2 January 2024 05: 56
    The Coalition will not make it to the Northern Military District, unless there are single copies for testing in combat conditions.
    Where on the Aromat front, Terminator, Su57? Only rumors!
    1. BAI
      +10
      2 January 2024 12: 07
      Terminators have been there for a long time. I think 47 pcs. Was. 1 lost
      1. +3
        3 January 2024 01: 11
        47 is a bit too much. There can't be so many. At the beginning of the SVO there were only 10 of them, well, a dozen more, maybe they were installed from the beginning. Maybe 2 dozen but this is the edge. T-90s and T-72B3Ms are also flowing there.
    2. BAI
      +1
      2 January 2024 12: 07
      Terminators have been there for a long time. I think 47 pcs. Those. - All. Was. 1 lost
    3. +5
      2 January 2024 16: 49
      The Terminator is at war, Su-57s are being used, the armature was also tested, but then withdrawn - the results require fine-tuning, which is not surprising for a tank of its level of testing among the troops
  6. +10
    2 January 2024 06: 21
    I wonder how powder gases affect the adjacent barrel? How much does the barrel oscillation deflect and how quickly does it damp out? Well, and accordingly how this affects the rate of fire and accuracy.
    1. +8
      2 January 2024 07: 32
      Plus there is also the swing of the chassis suspension after the first shot.
      1. +1
        2 January 2024 13: 13
        Plus more

        The second barrel is fired in a steady state, after the end of the transition process from the first shot. 60sec/16=3,75sec per shot.
      2. 0
        2 January 2024 19: 10
        Quote: Bad
        Plus there is also the swing of the chassis suspension after the first shot.

        Such a bandura must have coulters. This is not at all exclusive to self-propelled guns and does not increase the price much.
        1. 0
          3 January 2024 21: 08
          Such a bandura must have coulters. It's not exclusive at all

          such a “bandura” in your vocabulary meant it.
          But only in wheeled form.

          But in a tracked vehicle there are other approaches.
  7. +1
    2 January 2024 06: 55
    A poor attempt to pass off a bug as a feature.
  8. -10
    2 January 2024 06: 56
    Author, very interesting article. Logical and professional.
    I would like to speak out in support of your opinion that “Kaolitsiya” is still needed with paired barrels. We'll get there anyway.
    Let us now practice the installation with one barrel. There will be a lot of questions.
    BUT! It is necessary to begin now the development and testing of a product with paired, large-caliber barrels.
    You can't replace cannon artillery with rockets. PRACTICE has proven this.
    1. -23
      2 January 2024 07: 39
      Seriously, won't it replace it? Just don’t tell the Americans this. We are developing trunks because we do not have the opportunity to quickly build up others. It was very sad to watch how people praised and applauded a salvo of 108 units... the only time in two years, Karl... Naturally, such launches are needed, as we need to wipe off the dust together with Zee and 80% of the population. For comparison, citizens. The coalition carried out approximately equal launches, several times every two days... This simply knocked Iraq's air defense to zero... after which the aviation almost unhinderedly carried out further actions with virtually no losses. If I were in the place of the GDP, I would already start converting factories like VAZ to missiles, otherwise it might turn out like with drones.. And remember, high-precision is only for the Papuans, and will never replace mass action against a serious enemy whose systems are duplicated many times over. And as for the coalition’s two barrels, it kills two birds with one stone.
      1. +2
        2 January 2024 16: 31
        Kaklia needs to wipe off the dust along with Zee and 80% of the population
        belay Where do you get such “deep” thoughts, Mr. “humanist-liberator”??? winked
      2. +10
        2 January 2024 16: 51
        Quote: Igor Viktorovich
        For comparison, citizens. The coalition carried out approximately equal launches, several times every two days. This simply knocked Iraq’s air defense to zero.

        What nonsense ...
        297 tomahawks expended in Desert Storm. All. The Americans took great care of the CD, using it only for important and worthy purposes. And they crushed the air defense with manned aircraft, which were perfectly adapted to this.
        1. +1
          3 January 2024 14: 43
          Over what period of time? How much have we spent in two years?
          1. +1
            3 January 2024 19: 32
            Quote: Igor Viktorovich
            For what period of time?

            In the first 4 days of the air operation (Iraq's air defense was destroyed within three days, but suffered irreparable damage already on the first day of the attack), about 60 missile launchers were used.
            Quote: Igor Viktorovich
            How much have we spent in two years?

            According to the most conservative estimates - no less than 2000, but more likely about 4000
            1. +2
              4 January 2024 20: 02
              2000 -4000 cruise missiles? Maybe the sturgeon should still be cut back?
              1. +1
                4 January 2024 20: 57
                Quote: Petrov-Alexander_1Sergeevich
                Maybe the sturgeon should still be cut back?

                Shoigu announced more than 270 missile strikes, hitting more than 330 objects. And in a missile strike there are from 1 to infinity of missiles (recently one missile strike was carried out by 11 “Daggers”), and many targets require much more missiles than one. For example, a case was described when a workshop for the production of military products was hit by 4 missiles (with an interval of 50 m). Plus they always fire more missiles than needed (some will be shot down by air defense)
                The Ukrainian Armed Forces counted 2800 missiles in the first 5 months of the Northern Military District, this is game, of course, but... according to some reports, only Wagner had the right to a missile per day for his “personal” purposes.
                If you look at production, now at least 500 “Calibers” alone are produced per year (but rather more) and obviously not for storage.
                1. 0
                  10 January 2024 00: 57
                  Dagger and other ala Iskanders are not a cruise missile. This caliber of cruise missile has not been fired much lately, including due to problems with the carriers.
            2. 0
              5 January 2024 12: 50
              300 axes in four days. That is, how much could they shoot in two years? That's it.
              1. +1
                5 January 2024 13: 07
                Quote: Igor Viktorovich
                300 axes in four days.

                For those who cannot read, spell it out:
                300 axes - for the entire period of the conflict
                60 KR - for the first 4 days. We used to release more per day.
                Your thesis that the Iraqi air defense bombed the Kyrgyz Republic is complete nonsense
                1. -1
                  5 January 2024 13: 15
                  Well, that is, in the first week...after five days the coalition had no need to launch missile launchers. Don't act like a smart guy. The entire operation lasted 40 days.
                  1. +1
                    5 January 2024 13: 50
                    Quote: Igor Viktorovich
                    Well, that is, in the first week...after five days the coalition had no need to launch missile launchers

                    Igor, don’t talk nonsense, it hurts :))))) I forgot to mention air-launched missiles, so during the operation there were a total of 372 missiles (297 tomahawks + 75 air-launched missiles). Of these, 60 in the first 4 days. For the rest - 312 KR, respectively. Imagine, 372-60=312. That is, the bulk of the CD was released AFTER Iraq’s air defense was suppressed
    2. +2
      2 January 2024 22: 46
      Quote: Ivanov IV
      You can't replace cannon artillery with rockets. PRACTICE has proven this

      Lord! How often someone’s Opinions are passed off as the Truth, for some reason, which have become a Template!
      Quote: Ivanov IV
      It is necessary to begin now the development and testing of a product with paired, large-caliber barrels.

      Or maybe it’s better to try, for example, a 6-20-barreled (no more!) MLRS, in the most practical caliber... perhaps with a reloading “device”, as, for example, in the Czech “Vampire” (only more perfect!) and with high-precision(!) hypersonic(!) eres with a detachable (when necessary!) warhead?! what
      1. +1
        3 January 2024 15: 10
        Young man, you need to try everything!
        "A negative result is also a result..."
        BUT! We need to act, and not look into the mouths (or ass) of Americans. But how is it with “them”...
  9. +11
    2 January 2024 07: 00
    “A special operation is in many ways a unique armed conflict. Just look at the changed tactics of using tanks and the widespread use of kamikaze drones. Neither one nor the other was predicted by the General Staff until February 2022. But in the concept of using artillery, both sides of the conflict guessed the development of events 100% percent. The war will be won by long-range and high-precision howitzers - the rest will fall victim to counter-battery warfare. "Coalition-SV" seemed to be developed for the realities of a special operation. Unfortunately, it comes to the front only at the end of the second year of the special operation."

    It feels like there are oak trees in the General Staff. Until 2022, counter-battery warfare and drones were not part of their concept. Brother since 2014 in the Donbass and even then the enemy had drones and counter-battery warfare and stations for their work, even then commanders wrote to headquarters about this problem, but no one even lifted a finger, now it’s 2024, and these problems have not been solved, how the result is huge losses and scanty results in the offensive, but why don’t they change the concept if the military at the forefront have been reporting about this for more than 10 years, but the top leadership does not want to hear them...
  10. +5
    2 January 2024 07: 45
    Wikipedia indicates the maximum firing range is either 70 or 80 km. The link is Interfax and some “informed” source. I can’t understand how such a range can be achieved. Officially, the record now seems to belong to the experimental M109 with a 58-caliber barrel - 71 km
    1. +2
      2 January 2024 17: 10
      About 70 km they wrote about Krasnopol with a bottom gas generator. In general, a strange record, did the colossus really shoot at less than 71 km?
      1. 0
        2 January 2024 17: 38
        The Parisian cannon fired more than 100 km, but it cannot even be called a self-propelled gun, did not specify in the commentary
  11. +4
    2 January 2024 09: 00
    Expensive, complicated, stands out on the battlefield - all this also influenced the abandonment of the double-barreled gun. But the main thing, I think, is different. In the mutual influence of a shot from one gun on the accuracy of another.
    1. +1
      2 January 2024 18: 59
      But the main thing, I think, is different. In the mutual influence of a shot from one gun on the accuracy of another.
      And also overloaded chassis. High load on it during intense shooting from two barrels. Where does the reduced resource come from? So you can put 200 mm on the chassis. And even shoot from it. But not for long.
  12. -4
    2 January 2024 09: 06
    Complex layout, heavy; but just right for a promising Navy ship.
  13. +2
    2 January 2024 11: 39
    Quote: restless
    if the military on the front line have been reporting about this for more than 10 years, but the top leadership does not want to hear them...

    Here we are laughing from the US Army, and in a word, what can we take from them?
    And there the officer serves for several years at headquarters, then for the same number of years in the unit, and so on in turn.
    And together with the soldiers, the general or colonel live in the same tent during training and eat from a common cauldron.
    1. +8
      2 January 2024 11: 58
      Aha laughing and sleep with the same woman wassat
      1. +8
        2 January 2024 13: 09
        You are behind the trends, they now sleep with one man.
        1. +1
          2 January 2024 21: 34
          Then, with one man! wassat
      2. 0
        2 January 2024 19: 21
        Quote: Popuas
        Aha laughing and sleep with the same woman wassat

        It is on submarines that the Americans and the British sleep together (two more women on the same submarine are still rare).
        And in the ground forces they now have nowhere to put women; they compete with rear-wheel drive ones.
  14. +6
    2 January 2024 11: 59
    if the goal of creating promising artillery is maximum range, then it is necessary to switch to smooth-bore systems like those on tanks, a smooth barrel has one drawback - it is shooting accuracy, but if shooting is carried out at a distance of 70 kilometers or more, then you cannot do without a guided projectile, since even with a rifled barrel the dispersion will be many hundreds of meters, but if the projectile is controlled, then the initial conditions of shooting are not very important, but a smooth barrel is much more reliable and durable, the firing life is much longer and the ability to shoot with higher parameters of temperature and pressure in the barrel, which again increases the range with other equal conditions, but the downside is that you will have to switch only to guided projectiles.....
    1. +1
      2 January 2024 21: 20
      ...better not even shells, but these... rockets equipped with their own engines. But then it will be possible to further simplify the design of the barrels, making them significantly lighter and eliminating the bolts. This will even make it possible to assemble the trunks into “packages”, placing them parallel and close to each other... This way you can even invent the Israeli Pereh or something else interesting. But why, if it does not bring any special advantages over existing systems and complicates supply? For art, in a good way, 50 km is the ceiling, then technical perversions and marketing with shells for many dollars begin. There is more sense in improving existing models, as well as the tactics of use itself, from target detection to recording the results of the strike.
  15. BAI
    +13
    2 January 2024 12: 04
    2 large-caliber barrels on a mobile land self-propelled gun? The designers should have been fired as soon as this idea was put on paper. Have you tried putting a battleship on tracks? There are already 2-3 guns in the towers. Everything has already been done
    1. +3
      2 January 2024 13: 01
      Have you tried putting a battleship on tracks?

      We tried it!
      T-35.
  16. +2
    2 January 2024 12: 30
    2-wheel-drive heavy vehicles are left only in computer games...
    I wonder how 2 barrels affect accuracy? Surely it's not positive?
    Who knows?
    1. 0
      2 January 2024 12: 56
      2-wheel-drive heavy vehicles are left only in computer games...

      History also knows more multi-barreled options.
      For example, the M50 Otnos anti-tank self-propelled artillery unit with 6 106mm recoilless rifles.
      1. 0
        2 January 2024 16: 21
        self-propelled artillery unit M50 "Otnos" with 6 106mm recoilless rifles.
        so on the coalition the barrel costs as much as an airplane and, most importantly, is time-consuming to manufacture, but here it’s practically water pipes.
        I think similar pipes will be used to replace coalition guns when all the factories with the necessary machines are ready
        spiral of history
    2. 0
      2 January 2024 18: 12
      I think if you shoot one at a time, after the landing gear has calmed down, then it won’t work. If you shoot at the same time, it’s purely negative. You need to set a time delay
  17. +10
    2 January 2024 12: 30
    The first and most important reason is the high cost of a dual automatic loader and placing two guns on one chassis.
    I read that everything was more serious: the double-barreled gun didn’t hit anywhere, and the increase in time to calm down ate up all the rate of fire gained from the second barrel.
  18. +1
    2 January 2024 12: 47
    From a mechanical point of view, 2 barrels in a vertical arrangement, connected together, should give less bending and, accordingly, greater accuracy.
    1. +3
      2 January 2024 18: 09
      I think it is very difficult to connect them together to affect the reduction of bending. No one has canceled the rollback of the barrel after a shot. It's interesting to see how they were mounted in the cradle
  19. 0
    2 January 2024 12: 52
    Quote: Popuas
    Aha laughing and sleep with the same woman wassat

    Our officers eat separately from the soldiers and the reindeer herders occupy a separate arrogant and stupid caste.
    1. -1
      2 January 2024 16: 36
      Rom8681(Roma)
      We eat officers separately from soldiers
      little man - everyone in the army eats from the same pot.
      If we're talking about the table, then in any school and in any institute there are tables for teachers and professors.
      and people do not eat, but eat.
      .
      if it’s different for you, then you yourself have sunk to such a life
    2. -1
      3 January 2024 00: 47
      Do not compare the range of responsibilities of a commander (even from a squad commander) and the costs of his training. So far, even our contract soldier has not advanced far in training from a conscript and is not able to do more than perform the duties of a senior gunner after lengthy training. And the difference in officer rations is 30 grams of butter, 40 grams of canned fish and 40 grams of cookies and 40 grams of condensed milk. The only question is how to separate them from the general norm of issuance in the company. In general, it’s more reminiscent of, but in the neighboring kindergarten they give half a cup of compote more.
  20. +2
    2 January 2024 15: 54
    Now, I think that the single-barrel version is optimal in terms of cost and production cycle time, not to mention maintainability and so on. We just wish we had enough single-barreled long-range artillery right now! There is no need for excesses now.
  21. +1
    2 January 2024 15: 58
    Quote: Burer
    I can’t understand how such a range can be achieved

    Active rockets.
    1. +2
      2 January 2024 19: 36
      Quote: Serjy
      Quote: Burer
      I can’t understand how such a range can be achieved

      Active rockets.

      A simpler and cheaper rocket projectile. And he doesn't need a gun.
      Now cons will fly from all the sofas, but all these super long-range trucks are piece goods, there will be few of them and they will not have a noticeable impact on the course of hostilities. Including counter-battery work.
      They are too expensive to manufacture and maintain in combat-ready condition. Plus a meager resource.
      As a result, the cost of one shot is prohibitive. Many times higher than the cost of a guided missile of comparable range and payload.
  22. 0
    2 January 2024 16: 25
    Why "Coalition-SV" was left with one gun barrel

    What is the point of this second barrel? Prevent the first one from overheating?
  23. +3
    2 January 2024 17: 46
    The “coalition” does not fit into the existing artillery system. There are regimental-level guns, there are divisional-level guns, there are guns of a larger caliber and their task is completely different. For a division it is large and too long-range, for RVGK artillery the projectile is rather weak.. Our problems are not with range shooting, problems with communication and control .. You need to shoot at 40 km, use MLRS, don’t torture the gun, it won’t live long with such shooting. Well, with two guns on one carriage, albeit a self-propelled one, the result of the chase for “analogue”. It’s even strange why two barrels and not three would be cooler and, importantly, more expensive.
    1. +2
      2 January 2024 18: 51
      does not fit into the existing artillery system
      Our problems are not with the firing range
      You need to shoot at 40 km, use MLRS

      Why does Msta-s fit into the divisional artillery, but the coalition does not? What to do when the enemy has long-range artillery, but we don’t? MLRS? She probably has a range of plus or minus a kilometer over a long distance. If only with adjustable MLRS ammunition, but this will most likely be closer to a tactical missile.
      1. +4
        2 January 2024 19: 58
        Quote: Kinetic
        MLRS? She probably has a range of plus or minus a kilometer over a long distance. If only with adjustable MLRS ammunition,

        From cannon artillery at a range of 70 km, you can hit a target the size of a football field without adjustment either by accident or by guided ammunition.
        And if the ammunition is controlled, then you need to choose barrel or rocket artillery based on the cost-effectiveness principle.
        The winner of a war of attrition is not necessarily the one who has more resources, but rather the one who uses them more efficiently.
  24. +4
    2 January 2024 19: 15
    The double-barreled scheme is, of course, a breakthrough. The military’s doubts regarding complexity, weight, etc. are also understandable.
    But now I’m watching the single-barrel Coalition fire. There is such a build-up after the shot that it’s somehow hard to believe about the high rate of fire. She can do it purely technically, but where will she end up with such a build-up?
  25. +2
    2 January 2024 20: 17
    Any duplication is always a twofold increase in survivability.

    One and a half times, actually.
  26. -1
    2 January 2024 20: 20
    Quote: Captain Pushkin
    And if the ammunition is controlled, then you need to choose barrel or rocket artillery based on the cost-effectiveness principle.

    Quote: Captain Pushkin
    From cannon artillery at a range of 70 km, you can hit a target the size of a football field without adjustment either by accident or by guided ammunition.
    And if the ammunition is controlled, then you need to choose barrel or rocket artillery based on the cost-effectiveness principle.

    For Western barrel artillery systems, the range is 30 km for OFS, 40 km for active-reactive ones. These distances are relevant for artillery systems. And we simply must have such a system and we have it. Coalition!
    It will not be possible to replace it with an MLRS, the accuracy is not the same. MLRS is for squares. If we talk about guided projectiles, then artillery systems have their own range. The MLRS has its own.
    1. +5
      3 January 2024 09: 57
      One OFS shot at 30 km is counted as two at 15 km. Plus, nowhere in the comments is the dispersion ellipse at such a range given, and this is one of the most important characteristics of the gun. With the "Coalition-SV" they were clearly too clever, there is both a radar and microwave charge initiation and probably a lot more. And who said that MLRS is based on area? The Antonovsky Bridge is not a football field, but the MLRS made holes all over it. Maybe it’s worth or should have worked on the shells for the MLRS.? By the way, the German Nebelwerfer 41 had very good accuracy, was simple and effective.
  27. bar
    0
    3 January 2024 09: 25
    Quote: Gritsa
    But, as SVO practice has shown, sometimes it is necessary to place shells close

    In order to “put it close”, there are many other artillery systems.
  28. +1
    3 January 2024 10: 35
    Quote: Uncle_Misha
    The Antonovsky Bridge is not a football field, but MLRS fired holes all over it. Maybe it’s worth or should have worked on shells for MLRS

    The bridge is controlled by MLRS ammunition. I compared the usual OFS. MLRS with correction can be effectively used as a whole package against some important target at a long distance. Of course, the thing is interesting and, as practice has shown, it is effective. If we had such a system, it would be properly used. If we look at artillery systems, all countries are increasing their firing range. China has a self-propelled unit PLZ05. Shot range 39 km. (ERFB-BB ammunition), 53 km. (with ERFB-BB-RA ammunition), 100 km. (with WS-35 ammunition). Yes, yes art and 100 km, adjustable, but of course the weight of the warhead is not large. Longer distances are left for MLRS. Of course, one can discuss the rationality of the direction of development of missile forces and artillery. But I’m simply stating the fact of how these systems are developing in the world.
    1. +1
      3 January 2024 16: 09
      You are right, there really is a tendency to increase the firing range of artillery systems. To be honest, I don’t know why this is necessary, but that’s my problem. To fire a low-power projectile, even a high-precision one, over a hundred kilometers, what’s the point? Just as the most beautiful woman in the world cannot give more than she has, neither can 155 mm. My firm conviction, from 15 km from the LBS and beyond, is the territory of the MLRS (in modern performance) and aviation. Currently, UAVs have appeared and, judging by the experience of their use, they too.
      1. 0
        3 January 2024 21: 23
        So that you could hit the enemy, but he could not answer you (his arms are literally short).
      2. +2
        3 January 2024 22: 25
        The meaning of artillery, as opposed to barrel artillery from rockets and MLRS, is the same as since the time of Khrushchev, who proposed changing everything to rockets:
        - cost of hitting group and single targets
        - ability to work in any weather conditions and in the presence of enemy air defense and electronic warfare equipment
        Each type, complex of weapons, like in nature, has its own biological niche
        Where is the rational line in range/cost between cannon artillery and MLRS should the GRAU and 46 Central Research Institute know.
        1. +1
          4 January 2024 10: 45
          Khrushchev went a little too far, proposing to put all his eggs in one basket. Otherwise, you are right, each weapon has its own niche. The development of long-range systems has always been carried out, for example, the ZIS-3 could send a projectile 13 km, although the accuracy of such shooting did not bother anyone then .In articles by military analysts and practitioners of those times, the optimal range for cannon artillery was considered to be shooting at 10 - 15 km, depending on the caliber. What has changed? Satellites appeared, it became possible to accurately determine coordinates, microelectronics appeared.. Therefore, interest in long-range arose again, but for how long? Countermeasures also do not stand still, so only time will judge who is right and who is wrong.
  29. 0
    3 January 2024 21: 20
    very high wear on the tool!
  30. 0
    3 January 2024 21: 22
    It's better to replace the radar with the second barrel.
    See how your own people lay down, and where others are flying from.
  31. 0
    3 January 2024 22: 22
    The weakest side of this weapon is not even cost or even reliability. Intelligence is its narrowest and most painful place. Flights over enemy territory result in the loss of additional visual aids. So, in fact, the depth of damage will not exceed other artillery means. Well, maybe there will be less risk of being hit by this type of weapon.
  32. kig
    0
    4 January 2024 07: 04
    Does she have enough shells? Otherwise, they are supposedly some kind of unusual ones, they don’t fit any other gun.
  33. 0
    4 January 2024 17: 18
    The first and most important reason is the high cost of a dual automatic loader and placing two guns on one chassis. But will two “Coalition-SV” with one gun be cheaper than one “Coalition-SV” with two guns?!?! Two hulls, two engines, etc.
  34. 0
    6 January 2024 01: 02
    But this does not mean that the interesting and beautiful idea with a 152 mm double-barreled shotgun has gone into oblivion. Designers will definitely continue working with the concept, but at a different technological level

    God forbid... Our artillery will definitely not survive the second coming of the tyrants.
    1. -2
      6 January 2024 11: 37
      Really won't survive laughing It’s interesting to hear what the author of the “double-barreled shotgun” idea has to say. After all, he gave some arguments in its favor, and they seemed very weighty to some.
  35. 0
    6 January 2024 12: 35
    But in my sofa-like opinion, there is no need to immediately complicate the project dramatically. Everything is new here:
    1. Barrel-projectile-charge
    2. Unmanned module.
    3. Two barrels...

    The more new products there are in one product, the more difficult the path to series production.

    More correct way:
    1. Along the path of Hyacinth - self-propelled guns with an open wheelhouse
    2. Along the way is the Caesar self-propelled gun on an 8x8 chassis.
    3. And after training in the army, we launched a miracle self-propelled gun with an unmanned module.
    4. And some of the problems will be solved by a 152mm corrugated projectile for Glonnas from MST...