MiG-29K: time for the last flight?

253
MiG-29K: time for the last flight?

Let's talk about the MiG-29K.

Perhaps this aircraft can be called the most specific of all representatives of the naval aviation for some reasons. And we will now analyze these reasons. And the ongoing scandals, investigations and resignations in India prompted us to talk about the plane.



In general, scandals and whims performed by Indian stars... excuse me, politicians and military men (in general there is little difference, everyone dances) will not surprise anyone. It’s high time to take up an analytical calculator and calculate about the MMRCA tender and its results, I think it’s worth doing this in the near future.

For now, we’ll talk about the MiG-29K, of which the Indian Navy has twice as many as Russia has in similar structures.


Remember this scandal that overwhelmed all the media like a tsunami? When did India take offense and declare that literally all 45 MiG-29K aircraft that entered the Indian Navy from 2004 to 2010 turned out to be completely defective? And generally speaking story continues, someone is accused of ordering such filthy planes for bribes, they want to imprison someone (this is in India!!!) for not grabbing the trunk of the one who took bribes, and so on, a round dance until infinity. Mumbai serials just nervously smoke on the sidelines, and their directors drop everything and go learn their craft.

As Defense News wrote, the Indian Navy has lost hope of fundamentally correcting the problem and therefore has actually decided to abandon the use of the MiG-29K. Many problems have been voiced, but the main trouble is, in the words of DN, that “every landing looks like a plane crash.” After which each time you have to remove the engine and send the plane to the workshops.

But the worst thing is that the Russians do not want to repair and maintain their low-quality aircraft for free. In general, so much has been said on this topic that it remains to draw a certain conclusion: the Indians want to crash the MiG-29K on the deck themselves, and let us repair everything at our own expense. This is a peculiar approach, but it is what it is.

The Indian state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) cannot correct the situation without technical assistance from the manufacturer, since Indian engineers simply cannot make changes to aircraft designs. HAL is currently seeking funds from the Indian Navy to overhaul 113 engines on MiGs, including sourcing spare parts for them. And here's an interesting point.

Why are Indians looking for spare parts for the MiG-29, if MiG with its production facilities is here, very close? And this is where reality begins. As long as the plane is under warranty, as long as Russia pays for everything, you can drive it into the tail and head, banging it on the deck so hard that it rips the circuit boards off the fastenings. And then vilify Russia for low-quality aircraft. And demand free repairs.

But as soon as the warranty ends, that’s it. The search begins for Chinese-made spare parts, cannibalization of Romanian aircraft, and so on. Well, do-it-yourself work.

And then wagons of surprise about the fact that after the intervention of not the most direct Indian hands, everything is falling apart. What, as they say, they fought for...


But these are Indians, so the decision was made to abandon the MiG-29K and enter the world market to purchase carrier-based aircraft for the Navy. And, of course, the crows flocked to the smell of blood (sorry, dollars), the American Boeing with its F/A-18 Super-Hornet, the French Dassault with its Rafale M, the Swedish Saab with its “ Gripen Maritime". Ours are also present, but like this... at the door and laughing. And laughing for a reason.

And there are two nuances here that make the situation... no, not comical. Rather, thoughtful, because there is something to think about.

I'll start with a statement that claims to be original. The MiG-29K is not at all defective, as the Indians stated. They are completely normal, but... they are not quite decked. More precisely, practically not decked.


Here you need to understand in principle what a carrier-based aircraft and a pilot are. This is completely different from their land-based counterparts, because these are people and machines that constantly operate under extreme stress.

Taking off from the deck of an aircraft carrier - okay, back and forth, but landing... On the deck, which, by the way, not only moves in three-dimensional space, it is located at an angle to the line of motion of the ship and actually moves in all three dimensions, because the pitching can reach a couple of meters in the vertical plane! And landing an airplane on the deck is a very difficult task; it’s not for nothing that American deck pilots say that this is a “controlled crash.” Logically, the plane practically collapses onto the deck with about five meters of its entire weight.


The British and Americans have come a long way in the 100 years of their aircraft carrier forces. Different. And, if the British were still trying to adapt the Hurricane and Spitfire land fighters to their aircraft carriers, the Americans never did such things. In the USA, they clearly separated flies from cutlets and built only airplanes for the Air Force, and for fleet - other.

The tradition, by the way, has continued to this day. The Navy has its own, the Air Force has its own. And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was chic for its time, for the needs of the Air Force (yes, a little expensive, however) or the F/A-18, and vice versa, adapting the F-15 or F-16 for the fleet. To each his own, but this is the USA with its budgets.

You can delve into history and remember how the British suffered with converting land aircraft into carrier-based ones. Yes, the Sea Hurricane fought, but... the Sea Fire was better than its brother, and by and large, the British pilots breathed freely when the Americans shared the Corsairs with them.

So, the Mig-29 was originally designed as a multi-role fighter for the ground air force. Accordingly, the requirements usually placed on a carrier-based fighter when working on an aircraft were not even considered. Moreover, there was already a successful experience of converting the Su-27 into the Su-33, and nothing. It worked.


But the Su-33 is a separate issue, where the aircraft itself was designed from the beginning in such a way that no special modifications were required. Why, we’ll make a folding wing, thicker liners and more powerful shock absorbers - and that’s all, as they say.

This did not happen with the MiG-29.


In general, it is impossible to say that the MiG-29K is a MiG-29 with minimal modifications. The naval version of the project was distinguished by a large amount of fuel in the tanks (4 kg instead of 000 kg), the possibility of using outboard 3-liter tanks, while the maximum take-off weight with four missiles and three PTBs was even greater than that of the land-based MiG-650 - 800 kg.

Attention was also paid to increased loads during landing: the folding wings were made larger and the area of ​​the tail was also increased. The design of the central fuel tank, the power compartment (this is the place where the attachments of the wings, landing gear and landing hook meet), and the nose section where the front landing gear is attached have been strengthened.

As expected, the landing gear struts were made longer, the working stroke of the shock absorbers was increased, and fastening units were added for towing by ship equipment and mooring aircraft on deck.


In general, the work was carried out, and as a result, the MiG-29K could take off from the deck of the ship and land on it. A certain role in this was played by the more powerful RD-33MK engines, which were almost 33 kgf more powerful than the RD-400 land version.

Now let's digress to aircraft carriers.


It is well known that aircraft carriers are divided into nuclear and non-nuclear in terms of propulsion systems, and into ejection and ski-jump carriers in terms of launching aircraft.

American and French aircraft carriers use catapults. British and Russian - with springboards. In general, it seems that the “Prince of Wales” should already have catapults, but with this barn everything is very complicated.

Of course, an aircraft carrier with a ski-jump is flawed. This is a ship that can only take on board fighters, helicopters and UAVs; you can forget about aircraft such as AWACS and anti-submarine aircraft. And a bomber with a full load simply will not take off.


But ski-jump carriers have one advantage: they are all-latitude. And they can operate anywhere, from the North to the South Pole. They are not afraid of low temperatures. That is why Britain, as not the southernmost country, and the Soviet Union, whose most powerful fleets were based in very cold waters, chose this principle.

Many critics today write that “In the USSR they could not build a steam catapult.” But, seriously, the phrase goes like this: “The USSR was unable to build a steam catapult that would operate in the range from -20 to -40 degrees Celsius.”

There is such a vile physical phenomenon as the “Mpemba Effect”. This is when hot water freezes faster than cold water. Why this happens, scientists are still scratching their heads today, but basically (there are exceptions) this is exactly what happens. And steam in the conditions of the White, Bering or Okhotsk Sea will very quickly become ice. It's simple - physics. And no steam catapult will function in such conditions. Electromagnetic - yes, but it is there, in the near future for now.


This white steam will become beautiful white ice

So the great Admiral Gorshkov had no fools at his headquarters when they relied on cruisers with vertical take-off and landing aircraft and ski-jumps.


Now let's return to the Indians. Due to our wretchedness and their eternal desire to save money, they bought the “Admiral Gorshkov” and converted it from us into the “Vikramaditya”. The TAVKR turned out to be a truly light aircraft carrier. With a springboard.

In the stormy waves of the Internet I came across this statement:
“The Indians who made the decision to purchase the Mig-29K for the former Russian aircraft-carrying cruiser were either bribed or outrageous cretins. However, it is possible to do both at the same time. Now they are biting their elbows and feverishly looking for a replacement for Migam.”


No, not cretins. At that time, no one in the world was trading aircraft carriers except Russia. How the Indians bought the Viraat and the former Hermes from the British is a separate topic, but there were no more such ships for sale. I had to take what I had. And while the Harriers were flying, Viraat was depicting something. The Harriers ran out - the Viraat was also written off, because it itself was old (built in 1953), and a more recent ship arrived.


"Vikramaditya". Okay, we bought it, the MiG-29K is worthless crap, here we are now... What now? "Rafal-M"? Hello, is it okay that his wings don’t fold? Yes, they are not so wide-legged, but still. On the Vikrant, the new aircraft carrier, the elevators were made taking into account the size of the Rafale, but the Vikramaditya, excuse me, was developed for the MiG-29K. And it turns out that 3,20 meters is not in favor of the Frenchman. It doesn't fit, in short.

The size of the elevator for lifting aircraft on the Admiral Kuznetsov is approximately 14 x 16 meters. But the plane is placed on the lift at an angle, because the same MiG-29K is almost 18 meters in length, and the Su-33 is even more, at 21 meters in length. And it turns out that diagonally and every centimeter counts. And here - three meters...

A naval version of the Swedish "Griffin"? Yes, perhaps the plane is really small. But it basically doesn’t exist yet. When it happens, then we’ll talk.

F/A-18? Here you can be completely calm: it won’t take off. The Rafale (24 kg at takeoff) maybe, if you’re lucky, the Griffin (500 kg) for sure, but the Super Hornet with its 14 kg may not even be a dream. Damn physics again. But it won’t take off from the springboard, and if it does take off, it won’t be for very long. The MiG-000K with its estimated weight of 29 kg, the Rafale - yes, but the American is only in danger of bumps.


Yes, I specifically cited the maximum take-off weight, because flying like the Su-33 flew in Syria with half the fuel supply and a couple of bombs is not even funny.

So what now? And now the Indians have two aircraft-carrying ships.


One, which is older, “Vikramaditya”, it can only operate MiGs, but in the future Saabs are also possible. The second, which was no longer built as an aircraft-carrying cruiser, but as an aircraft carrier, that is, by changing the design of the ship to suit everyone’s wishes, it can and will operate Rafales. Although no one has canceled the MiG-29K.

There could, of course, be a third option, the F-35B. Now it would be a life-saving means of greatly increasing the striking power of aircraft carriers and would fit perfectly into a springboard design. It is still a VTOL aircraft after all. But alas, no one will sell it to India. Indians have long dreamed of getting into that very cherished program, but alas: they, like the Turks, are denied entry. Close cooperation in the military sphere with Russia kills this idea completely.

So overall the choice is small. However, two completely different aircraft on two ships is not very convenient. And if we also take into account the fact that the Rafale costs twice as much as the MiG, without being particularly superior to it in flight and combat characteristics...

In general, the situation is twofold.

Of course, the situation with supplies (more precisely, not deliveries) of MiG-29K/KUB to India is seriously affecting the position of RSK MiG OJSC in the world market. But let’s be honest – on the inside too. The MiG-29 is frankly retiring, the MiG-35 has not entered production (6 aircraft is not a series), the aircraft requires a new engine and fundamental changes in terms of stealth. The result is a situation where the Sukhoi concern wins a complete and unconditional victory in the videoconferencing. Fair enough, by the way, because Sukhoi can provide an aircraft for every taste and income. Have a lot of money and want a “super” class? - here's the Su-35S. There is not so much money - Su-30 is in stock. No money at all? – Please, we will modernize the Su-27. Promising projects for the future? – No question, Su-57 and Su-75.

RSK MiG, unfortunately, has nothing except the MiG-29, which, alas, is not in demand as much as it was 40 years ago. As for the MiG-29K, the aircraft still has some chances, at least as long as India operates the Soviet aircraft-carrying cruiser and its copy.

It is especially worth considering the fact that the Vikramaditya has a service life of 30 years, that is, until 2043, and the Vikrant even more - until 2060.


But RSK MiG has something to seriously think about. Apart from India, there are no and will not be buyers for the MiG-29K, and the regular MiG-29, despite its cheapness, is not so attractive to buyers precisely because of its age and the lack of advanced modifications.

But it’s probably still too early to write it off?
253 comments
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  1. +2
    5 December 2023 04: 45
    Is the author such a fan of Indian cinema? Or an aspiring stand-up comedian?
    If you take away all the attempts to make jokes from the text, then the writing is interesting and informative...
    1. +7
      5 December 2023 19: 24
      Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
      If you take away all the attempts to make jokes from the text, then the writing is interesting and informative...

      I liked the article. The style is free, the material is not overloaded with technical details. Everything is fine... But, in my opinion, the main thing is missing: what next? What will happen to the ship version of the MiG-35K??? Or the vehicle that won the tender (yes, the first stage, and from the same Indians, but in high altitude conditions!) is no longer subject to modernization and upgrade in terms of stealth, engines, and weapons? Well, this is just some kind of wastefulness! If you can’t mass-produce it, make an experimental model, but one worthy of the legendary title “MIG”!
      IMHO.
      1. +10
        6 December 2023 04: 41
        The author, of course, forgot that the MiG in the early 2000s was much better than the Sukhoi and in 2001 already had a flying fifth-generation aircraft, but then Pogosyan intervened and the MiG died, then Chemezov finished off the MiG. Pogosyan lured many specialists from the sinking MiG to Sukhoi, many were laid off. Nevertheless, the MiG-29K and its land version, the MiG-35, are still necessary and good aircraft today, although once one of the world’s leading developers of MiG fighters, he himself is unlikely to be able to do anything.
        Nevertheless, the MiG-29K/MiG-35 became our first production aircraft with AFAR, the developer of which was demolished in 2020, destroying the unique equipment of Chemezov’s structure.
  2. +10
    5 December 2023 04: 50
    “They couldn’t build a steam catapult in the USSR.” But, seriously, the phrase goes like this: “The USSR was unable to build a steam catapult that would operate in the range from -20 to -40 degrees Celsius.”
    Well, maybe, but with AB energy it’s probably possible to heat catapult tracks.

    And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was luxurious for its time, for the needs of the Air Force (yes, a little expensive, however) or the F/A-18
    But this at least sounds strange, taking into account the operation of the F/A-18 in countries far from even destroyers, not to mention aircraft, such as Switzerland or Finland. lol
    1. +2
      5 December 2023 19: 17
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      But this at least sounds strange, taking into account the operation of the F/A-18 in countries far from even destroyers, not to mention aircraft, such as Switzerland or Finland.

      You can also remember the history of the creation of the F/A-18. More precisely, what project was at its basis and how many versions of the aircraft were originally envisaged. wink
    2. +2
      6 December 2023 07: 21
      And cats still fly in Iran.
  3. +8
    5 December 2023 04: 57
    It’s time for MIG to stop torturing itself and the Defense Ministry and move on to large UAVs. The topic is fashionable, promising, and there is a chance to regain leadership.
    1. +3
      5 December 2023 10: 20
      Mig had to persistently promote the Mig-35. With further conversion into a deck deck. And also continue the topic with a new interceptor. But Mig surrendered to the mercy of the victors.
      1. +3
        5 December 2023 13: 15
        Yes, it's all pointless. MiGs sit hard, and they’re not the only ones. EVERYTHING starts to fall off for them. That is, you just need to make a different plane. And the giblets are attached somehow differently than they are used to for air force aircraft.
        1. +12
          5 December 2023 16: 10

          To illustrate the difference in fit.
          1. +5
            5 December 2023 17: 36
            Only the Americans don’t have blocks falling off inside. But the Mig-29 always has failures. It refuses everything that can fail. Even screwed connectors.
          2. +4
            5 December 2023 19: 31
            Quote: PROXOR
            To illustrate the difference in fit.

            The land can roll as long as the runway allows. And the ship needs to grab the brake cable with a hook at a distance of 10 meters...otherwise, it’s a mess!
            So “feel the difference”...
          3. +2
            8 December 2023 23: 53
            When landing on the deck, there is no alignment; the plane simply crashes into the deck and is caught by the arresting officer by the landing hook. In this case, at the moment of touching the deck, the pilot sets the takeoff mode (or PF, if available) to the engines and takes the handle for takeoff. If the landing gear does not catch on the aerofinisher, then the plane goes around.
      2. +8
        6 December 2023 13: 20
        Mig had to persistently promote the Mig-35. With further conversion into a deck deck.

        The MiG-35 is essentially a land-based version of the current MiG-29K.
        And also continue the topic with a new interceptor.

        A new interceptor in its modern form is an expensive and unnecessary utopia that even the United States and China, whose military budgets are ten times larger, cannot afford. AWACS aircraft plus a two-seat version of the Su-57 plus space reconnaissance and plus URO surface ships will perform the air defense mission much cheaper and more efficiently than several wunderwaffles
        MiG, if it could restore its team, would better create what it does best, create a light single-engine multi-role fighter-bomber based on the engine of the second stage of the Su-57.
        But Mig surrendered to the mercy of the victors.

        The MiG did not solve anything; it is dependent on the order of the Ministry of Defense, which is formed in the Kremlin. The MiG was destroyed by Putin under the influence of Pogosyan.
  4. +4
    5 December 2023 05: 00
    The MiG doesn’t need to play the fool with the Indians, but it needs to work on the interceptor - it was and will be necessary. And to get involved with the Indians... They are of no use, like a goat of milk, very smart, like a vutka
    1. 0
      5 December 2023 07: 17
      Perhaps you are right. On the other side and the old woman is a gift from God..
  5. +23
    5 December 2023 05: 14
    There is a lot in the publication that is, to put it mildly, controversial.
    And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was luxurious for its time, for the needs of the Air Force...

    It’s somehow strange to read this from an author who is equally well versed in almost everything, including Indian dances, vultures and carrier-based aviation.

    Grumman F-14 Tomca fighters have proven themselves very well in the Iranian Air Force and served there for several decades.
    1. +7
      5 December 2023 07: 59
      Quote: Bongo
      There is a lot in the publication that is, to put it mildly, controversial.

      There is indeed a lot of controversy, from the fact that the F-14 and F-18 were (and continue to be) excellently used as fighters by the air forces of many countries, and to the prospects of the MiG-29K. Maybe the author wrote an article a week or two ago and did not catch news from MiG that serial production of the MiG-35S is being prepared and there are several foreign customers. Just as he did not take into account the fact that next year they promise to launch their modernization of the Kuznetsov, and the question of his air wing immediately arises. The Su-33s are old, they have not been modernized, and there are few of them left, and out of 24 MiG-29Ks, two have already been lost, and 22 aircraft will not be enough for Kuznetsov. The solution is to order another regimental set of MiG-35SK, and upgrade the existing MiG-25K\KUB to the level of the MiG-35SK (fortunately they have one airframe). In addition, MiG-35S will also be purchased for the Russian Aerospace Forces. So it’s too early to write off the MiG-29 family - in light of the aggravation of the international military-political situation, the demand for combat aircraft suitable for war (and not for show-off) is increasing exponentially. And what is it like here for countries that have bad relations with the United States... Especially if for the cost of one Rafale you can order three MiG-35S. In terms of combat capabilities, the aircraft are quite comparable, but the price... and in war this means the number of aircraft purchased, the cost of their operation, the cost of weapons for them. The MiG-35S has all this much more attractive.
      And the Indians may well have a textbook story when a very cunning gypsy outwitted himself. It would be good if they now beg for a contract for the MiG-35SK and the modernization of the entire MiG-29K fleet with capital and remotorization... but I’m afraid that right now they will have to stand in line for this.
      1. +9
        5 December 2023 08: 29
        And the Indians may well have a textbook story when a very cunning gypsy outwitted himself.
        The gypsy inside of the Indians is visible in all their affairs. Crooks. I have already written here several times about how once every 5 years they come to our office so that we make a system for them, but then everything freezes for the next 5 years.
        1. +7
          5 December 2023 08: 57
          Quote: Aviator_
          I have already written here several times about how once every 5 years they come to our office so that we make a system for them, but then everything freezes for the next 5 years.

          An irresistible craving for freebies.
      2. Des
        +7
        5 December 2023 09: 02
        they will have to stand in line for this.
        and there is a queue (for the “MiG-35SK and modernization of the entire MiG-29K fleet”)?!
        1. +3
          5 December 2023 09: 13
          Quote: Des
          and there is a queue (for the “MiG-35SK and modernization of the entire MiG-29K fleet”)?!

          There is currently a waiting list for the MiG-35S for at least two foreign customers and upcoming deliveries for the Aerospace Forces. These contracts form that queue, because the production facilities - two MiG plants - will be puzzled by them for future years.
          There have been conversations about the Indians’ desire to modernize their MiG-29K\KUB under the MiG-35S program, but with the Indians they always take a long time. While they are dancing and chanting, the queue will grow even longer - many people now need combat fighters with AFAR and excellent characteristics. And the example of the SVO is very instructive in terms of the work of combat aviation. I think we will have to seriously expand the capacity of our aircraft factories to meet all demand.
          1. Des
            +3
            5 December 2023 11: 44
            Thanks for the sane, informative - if possible - answer.
      3. +8
        5 December 2023 12: 21
        Maybe the author wrote an article a week or two ago and did not catch news from MiG that serial production of the MiG-35S is being prepared and there are several foreign customers.

        Reality (news 22.11.2023/XNUMX/XNUMX):
        “Today, in connection with the events that are taking place, the machine is already participating in all the operations that are being carried out. Further test flights are yet to be completed before the Ministry of Defense will make a final decision.“he said*, answering the question whether a decision had been made on serial purchases of the MiG-35 for the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS).
        Korotkov also noted that in parallel, negotiations are underway on the supply of MiG-35 for export.
        https://lenta.ru/news/2023/11/22/v-oak-rasskazali-o-primenenii-istrebitelya-mig-35-v-hode-svo/
        So no mass production is being prepared yet.
        *Sergey Korotkov - General Designer of PJSC "UAC"
        1. 0
          5 December 2023 22: 09
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          So no mass production is being prepared yet.

          When a plane that has already been buried ten times begins to be promoted again and a whole series of publications are published on this topic, this is definitely not without reason. Especially when the most pressing issue for two such important partners for us today as Iran and North Korea is the urgent rearmament of their air force. It will not be possible to organize quick and sufficient supplies of heavy fighters (Su-35S and Su-30SM\SM2), although their production is being increased manifold - everything goes to the Aerospace Forces. This caused the delay of the batch (24 units) of “Egyptian” Su-35S. But our partners need fighters, and at the same time, the colossal capacities of TWO MiG factories with MiG-35S lines ready for production are idle. This is the solution to the issue - the supply of these wonderful machines to our allies, and at the same time the purchase of a batch of them for the Aerospace Forces, because Sukhoi factories cannot keep up with the pace to meet the needs of the Aerospace Forces.
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          Further test flights still need to be completed, and then the Ministry of Defense will make a final decision."

          Here the solution is just as simple - when they ruined the MiG-35S program to please Sukhoi, Manturov and Co. killed (closing the project and financing) the already created and ready for series AFAR radar for the MiG-35S. Literally on the eve of SVO. And when it became clear that without the MiG-35S and its two factories the program for a sharp increase in the number of aerospace forces and the supply of aircraft to the allies could not be solved, the question arose of restoring the production capacity of the AFAR radar for it... and Manturov ALREADY tried... It’s obvious and decides to either revive the Zhuk-AE, or urgently cut for it a canvas truncated in area from the Belka BRLK. Because the 6 MiG-35S purchased for the VKS have conventional slotted PFARs, which neither the VKS nor foreign customers need. We need AFAR!
          This is the subject of testing. And factories are preparing for production. Or they are already making preparations for these orders.
          According to some reports, new MiG-35S can be expected next year. And since the production cycle of such an aircraft from laying down to delivery is approximately 1 year... this means production has already started.
          The fog of war is sacred.
          1. 0
            6 December 2023 11: 16
            When a plane that has already been buried ten times begins to be promoted again and a whole series of publications are published on this topic, it’s definitely not without reason

            Yes, this happens regularly with stale goods. Maybe it will work out for the 11th time.
            But our partners need fighters

            Undoubtedly. Therefore, Iran is interested in the Su-35 and has confirmed its purchase. There was no mention of the MiG-35.
            “Deputy Minister of Defense of Iran Seyed Mehdi Farhi told Tasnim that a deal has been finally agreed on to purchase Russian Mi-28 attack helicopters, Su-35 fighters and Yak-130 combat trainers.”
            https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/6365297
            and at the same time the purchase of a batch of them for the Aerospace Forces, because Sukhoi’s factories cannot keep up with the pace to meet the needs of the Aerospace Forces.

            All that remains is to persuade the RF Ministry of Defense. They are resisting as best they can. It's definitely not without reason.
            And factories are preparing for production. Or they are already making the groundwork for these orders. According to some reports, new MiG-35S can be expected next year.

            Or they don’t - according to some sources. Or maybe they are not preparing.
            Fortune telling is all about coffee grounds.
            For the current war, it would be better if they made drones. It would make a lot more sense.
            1. +3
              6 December 2023 22: 07
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Or they don’t - according to some sources. Or maybe they are not preparing.
              Fortune telling is all about coffee grounds.

              And don’t get your hopes up, I knew about preparations for mass production of the MiG-35S last year. You will soon find out, just don’t burst from bile.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              It would be better if they made drones. It would make a lot more sense.

              We'll figure it out without your fantasies. These factories have the equipment, production lines and cooperation for the production of MiG-29M2, MiG-29K\KUB and MiG-35S, and not some kind of “drones”. Other enterprises are engaged in drones - those who are supposed to. And believe me, we will have at least an order of magnitude more drones, shells, and all other means of destruction than you have. And even than all of you.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Maybe it will work out for the 11th time.

              Everything worked out a long time ago.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Iran is interested in the Su-35 and has confirmed its purchase. There was no mention of the MiG-35.

              And this is good - fewer words, faster work.
              In the meantime, think about how to survive this winter.
      4. +4
        5 December 2023 21: 33
        They write that the existing 6 Mig-35s are actively used in the Northern Military District, and they note its good situational awareness and ability to be network-centric (information exchange). Surely its use in the Northern Military District prompted the RF Armed Forces to make new purchases, especially since it is possible to quickly increase production at 2 factories. It is suggested that the first boards will be ready in the 1st or 2nd quarter of next year (the equipment is all ready, and there is probably some groundwork).
    2. +4
      5 December 2023 09: 34
      Quote: Bongo
      It’s somehow strange to read this from an author who is equally well versed in almost everything, including Indian dances, vultures and carrier-based aviation.

      Grumman F-14 Tomca fighters have proven themselves very well in the Iranian Air Force and served there for several decades.

      Skomorokhov wrote about the USA, but he is still wrong, because... The F-14 was offered to the Air Force, as was the F-15 to the Navy.
  6. +3
    5 December 2023 06: 16
    yes, with the Indians, as always, everything is difficult, they are still stupid, but it’s even more difficult with ours - you can’t put all your eggs in one basket, in fact, the Sukhoi Design Bureau now has a monopoly on front-line aviation
  7. 0
    5 December 2023 06: 18
    Regularly shot down MiG-29s of the Ukrainian Air Force are a ringing bell for the MiG.
    It is clear that our air defense would shoot down the F-22/35,
    Even if they are in the crosshairs, buyers work with facts.

    After the SVO, by inertia, our defense industry will still produce the Su-30/35, and then the fifth generation will already be there. The only use of the 29s is seen as training,
    but even here there is little sense, because Jacob was done enough.
    In the foreign market, Rafales, Saabs, and the Chinese J-10 rule.

    I agree with Roman’s conclusions and approaches to history and prospects, but nothing is said about the possibilities of Tejas. Isn't this the guy in the photo taking off? The noise in India may also be fueled by lobbyists for the local aviation industry.
    1. +6
      5 December 2023 08: 26
      Quote: Feodor13
      Regularly shot down MiG-29s of the Ukrainian Air Force are a ringing bell for the MiG.

      And the information that MiG-35S were among those shot down, is this a fanfare of glory for the MiG-35S?
      It may have escaped your notice that over the past 2-3 years, on an URGENT request, half a hundred MiG-29s have been delivered to India from storage, with repairs and partial modernization. And the price tag for these planes was by no means cheap... that’s what they offered our VKS MiG-35S for (internal price).
      Quote: Feodor13
      bell ringing on the MiG.

      And apparently at this very ringing, the MiG General Director announces the launch of serial production of the MiG-35S for several foreign customers and the Russian Aerospace Forces.
      Quote: Feodor13
      After the SVO, by inertia, our defense industry will still produce the Su-30/35

      Our defense industry, even during the Northern Military District, is already transferring modernized Su-34M, Su-30SM2 to the troops, and next year they promise a Su-35SM with AFAR and many elements of avionics from the Su-57. To be honest, I would like to see AFAR radar and other elements of avionics from the Su-57 and on the Su-30SM2 ... or let it be SM3 - Naval Aviation should not lag behind the ground-based avionics quality.
      Quote: Feodor13
      The only use of the 29s is seen as training,

      These are single and old... for cadets?? lol In the Russian Aerospace Forces today there is only one regiment flying the MiG-29, and even that one is based in Armenia. And foreign operators can be offered to modernize the MiG-29 fleet suitable for this, or simply exchange it for a fresh MiG-35S fleet. In terms of price/quality/combat capabilities, the MiG-35S is the best that exists on the arms market today.
      Quote: Feodor13
      Rafales, Saabs, and the Chinese J-10 rule.

      This is still about “show-off”, not “fight”. And humanity faces a very turbulent decade ahead.
      The J-10 fighter is not bad, but China will not be able to export it with Russian engines. And this is a risk for the buyer. But no one will buy such planes with Chinese ones. Because the Chinese themselves purchase such aircraft for their Air Force only with our AL-31F.
      Quote: Feodor13
      about the possibilities of Tejas

      So-so opportunities, but the Indians really want to register it on deck. The thrust-to-weight ratio is not enough.
      1. +4
        5 December 2023 09: 42
        Bayard was convinced of some things, not of others.

        Well, I definitely did NOT speak out everywhere.
        In the first thesis, I first wrote about the bell ringing for the Mig-29, and then erased it for brevity. It came out ambiguous))

        And not as informed as you.
        I think only on the basis of widely known information.
        And yes... in a military economy, even super-obviousness does not always work
        (to the question about future wars, "show-offs", MIG-35, etc.).

        All the same, thank you for emphasizing my stingy glance at the 29th.
        1. +6
          5 December 2023 10: 28
          Quote: Feodor13
          .in a military economy, even super-obviousness does not always work
          (to the question about future wars, "show-offs", MIG-35, etc.).

          This is not about India at all, it seems that it has chosen its own camp in future showdowns (AUCUS+) and is now waiting for TNCs to move to their place and play the role of a new “World Factory” - instead of China. So even its successor (sudden and URGENT) purchases of a large batch of MiG-29s from stock (!) could be made for ... resale through intermediaries (England, USA) for the Armed Forces of Ukraine (and we are wondering where so many MiG-29s come from, but spare engines came with them). So India is cunning and dodging with all its might, but... it is unlikely that “Stone Flower” will come out of it. They claimed that they needed MiG-29s for high-altitude airfields against China... perhaps this is true, but too many of the same aircraft appeared from God knows where from the Ukrainian Armed Forces...
          The point is that the World is entering a period of turbulence for at least 10 years, and all countries suddenly remembered their own safety. And everyone who is not a satellite of the United States (and this is becoming fraught) will still look for opportunities to purchase combat aircraft and rearm their air force. And besides the Western countries, we are the only ones here, because China has... problematic engines. The difficulty is that Russia itself is now dramatically increasing the number of its aerospace forces, and the possibilities for purchasing especially heavy fighters are very limited. But two MiG factories can produce (albeit not immediately) up to 80 MiG-35S per year, and maybe more. And it is in this segment that good opportunities open up for customers. Moreover, the VKS is unlikely to purchase too many MiG-35S (I think up to 300 units, no more) - in anticipation of the Su-75 with a new engine. Therefore, countries such as North Korea, Iran, and possibly a number of other countries will take advantage of this opportunity.
          1. 0
            5 December 2023 17: 40
            In my opinion, the reluctance of the Ministry of Defense to order the MiG-35 is understandable. This is the plane of yesterday. Unfortunately. In my opinion, again, Moscow Region has a lot of quirks, but here they are right.
            "The horse is dead. We just need to get off it." (c) folk Indian.
            1. +4
              5 December 2023 19: 39
              Quote: mmaxx
              In my opinion, the reluctance of the Ministry of Defense to order the MiG-35 is understandable.

              Well, then you all the more understand the desire of the Moscow Region to order these aircraft. And it’s no longer about the quirks of the former head of the Logistics Service of the Moscow Region (dismissed from service for theft of particularly large amounts of military property, equipment, funds, etc. - he stole EVERYTHING ... and of course shared) and the head of the Moscow Region itself (the great strategist and regiment leader) peacetime, but about the needs of wartime. Because we are at war. And a Real (i.e., Large, and not the coveted Small) Army was needed, and therefore a sufficient number of Aerospace Forces. What heavy machines alone cannot achieve. And since the promised Su-75 will go into production no earlier than the beginning of the next decade (first half), there is simply no alternative to the wonderful 4++ generation aircraft request not .
              Yes, and the allies need to be armed - times are turbulent, everyone needs to rearm their air forces, except from us, there is nowhere to order.
              Quote: mmaxx
              "The horse is dead. We just need to get off it." (c) folk Indian.

              There is a lot going on in India. The program for obtaining (and even participating in the program) the 5th generation Su-75 aircraft died. And now they don’t know WHAT to counter the Chinese J-20 with.
              “When a Hindu once again (during a dance) shits in his trousers, he usually says that the horse died under him.” - wisdom, no less folk than Indian.
              Quote: mmaxx
              plane of yesterday

              What could be said about the Su-35S, because it receives AFAR radar only in the Su-35SM modification, which they promise to show only next year... but already in mass production.
              Do not pass off the unfair competition of the Sukhoi company and the corruption conspiracy in the Moscow Region as a real situation. The MiG-35S is a wonderful middle-class MFI with a price tag for purchase and operation 1,5 times lower than that of the Su-35S. And with combat capabilities of 70 - 80% of it. And we need to form 5 to 10 new aviation regiments using these fighters.
            2. +1
              10 December 2023 19: 53
              The tyranny of the Air Force commander in the early 2000s. At the same time, everything “extra” was cut from storage. They thought that a monopark of Su-27 derivatives would dramatically change something or save money, plus they could perform stunts at air shows. Mig-35 could have happened if they had given money to related companies for an AFAR radar, a container, alloys, etc. In general, it is still one and a half times cheaper in production (the ratio of the times of the USSR).
      2. +8
        5 December 2023 12: 28
        The General Director of MiG announces the launch of serial production of the MiG-35S for several foreign customers and the Russian Aerospace Forces.

        The general director announced serial production of the MiG-35 already in 2019:
        https://www.gazeta.ru/army/news/2019/08/28/13395733.shtml
        And I didn’t even lie - they released 6 pieces. Actually, based on the results of operation, the Russian Ministry of Defense as of November 2023 did not make any final decision on the further production of these aircraft. About foreign customers - well, that’s it. Negotiations, statements... there will be a contract, we can talk about something.
        1. -3
          5 December 2023 19: 46
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          About foreign customers - well, that’s it. Negotiations, statements... there will be a contract, we can talk about something.

          There will be contracts, but no conversations.
          Have you heard a lot of (official) talk about the supply of aircraft to Iran? And the first batches of Su-35SE, Yak-130, Mi-28M have already been delivered there.
          There will be even less talk about supplies to North Korea.
          And the Aerospace Forces simply need these aircraft - because they need to saturate new air regiments. You can't do this with heavy weights alone, and it's too much.
          1. -2
            6 December 2023 11: 23
            Have you heard a lot of (official) talk about the supply of aircraft to Iran?

            There is confirmation of the conclusion of the contract from an official source. As for "already delivered" - it is unknown.
            There will be even less talk about supplies to North Korea.

            Deliveries to North Korea are a very questionable matter. Russia definitely does not need an aggravation with South Korea. If they break all the pots openly, then maybe they will put them up. And then only if China approves, which is not at all a fact.
            1. +4
              6 December 2023 21: 16
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              There is confirmation of the conclusion of the contract from an official source.

              Were there confirmations, or at least mentions, of contracts for the supply of Mi-28? About deliveries of the Yak-130? And they have already been delivered (the first batches). And regarding the “Egyptian” Su-35S, it all started with publications in Western and Israeli sources. At first there was no confirmation, then confirmation happened, but they were playing with volumes and timing. No direct statements on our own (Russian Federation or Iran) initiative.
              The same will happen with S. Korea. There will be no information, explanations, or confirmations.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Russia definitely does not need an aggravation with South Korea. If they break all the pots openly, then maybe they will put them up.

              And supplies from Yu.K. artillery shells of the Ukrainian Armed Forces "more than all of Europe combined"?
              What about supplies to Poland of tanks, self-propelled guns, MLRS, combat aircraft and non-nuclear submarines?
              Not ? Aren't these pots?
              But precisely in order not to give unnecessary reason to ANYONE officially about such deliveries right up to the very fact of the transfer, nothing will be said or published. In addition, such deliveries will not be able to begin in a year or even two - the production cycle, training of pilots and technicians, preparation of production, accumulation of batches for transfer. By this time, either a “donkey” or a padishah.” (talking about pots with Yu.K.)
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              if China approves, which is not at all a fact.

              China will approve.
        2. +2
          6 December 2023 11: 31

          The general director announced serial production of the MiG-35 already in 2019:


          It looks like the wind has changed. And I can even guess why.

          General designer of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Sergei Korotkov:

          “Today, in connection with the events that are taking place, the machine is already participating in all the operations that are being carried out. There are still further test flights to be completed before the Ministry of Defense will make a final decision.”
      3. +2
        5 December 2023 19: 48
        Quote: bayard
        In terms of price/quality/combat capabilities, the MiG-35S is the best that exists on the arms market today.

        This is probably how it is in the light fighter class. But don’t forget: the Su-75 is on the way. With one engine and avionics from the Su-57! Therefore, “we’ll see”... Yes
        1. +4
          5 December 2023 20: 13
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          But don’t forget: the Su-75 is on the way.

          If the Su-75 were now ready for series, no one would have thought about the MiG-35S. But the "Chekmet" series is still 10 years away. The first flight of the first experimental one is promised in a year and a half +. Testing, fine-tuning, correction of jambs... Even taking into account that the avionics and engine are from the Su-57, the airframe is completely new, unflyed. So you shouldn’t dream about mass production before the beginning - the first half of the next decade.
          And LFMI was needed in the VKS yesterday... although the Moscow Region only realized this recently.
          MiG-35S is completely ready for large-scale production, with prepared lines and production cooperation.
          1. +3
            6 December 2023 03: 00
            Quote: bayard
            If the Su-75 were now ready for production, no one would even think about the MiG-35S. But the "Chekmet" series is still 10 years away



            What makes you think that he will even be in the Russian Aerospace Forces? Is this a “check” with “mat” for you? Are you aware that since the 60s, one of the main requirements for our aviation fighters is that they be twin-engine? And so far no one has spoken about revising this rule. “Sukhoi” with its lobby no longer knows how else to drag the country down, how else to dodge, just to not let everyone understand a simple thing - Pogosyanovism has led to the fact that our troops are experiencing a shortage of new aircraft, the fleet does not have a sane missile-carrying aircraft , but the troops have two identical, but not unified information security systems! And no prospects for a quick renewal of the park!
            1. +2
              6 December 2023 05: 19
              Quote: abc_alex
              Are you aware that since the 60s, one of the main requirements for our aviation fighters is that they be twin-engine?

              Come on??
              And that is why in the 60s - 70s such fighters as the MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27, Su-17 of all modifications were adopted. feel
              Or are you talking about that series of meetings after which the phrase was heard: “From now on, only twin-engine fighters”?
              Yes, this decision was made based on an analysis of a number of military conflicts in Vietnam and the Middle East, where the legendary F-4 Phantom 2 performed very well. They showed it in terms of performance characteristics and survivability. I know all these stories. But this was in the USSR!! At the turn of the 60s and 70s. when technical specifications for the MiG-29 and Su-27 were issued.
              But at the same time, the United States came to completely opposite conclusions. No, they did not abandon heavy twin-engine fighters, but they realized the urgent need for a light single-engine, cheap and maneuverable fighter. "Give us the American MiG-21!!!" American generals demanded.
              And they achieved their goal - the 4th generation bestseller, the F-16, appeared in the USA.
              And now you want to argue whose concept is better?
              Already during the work on the Su-27 and looking at the American attempts with the F-16, Sukhoi came to the conclusion that it was necessary to make a single-engine LFMI on the AL-31F, with radar and avionics of the Su-27 ... and both in the deck version and in the variant for the Air Force (then they actively began the program for the construction of nuclear aircraft). And these would turn out to be very worthy alternatives to the MiG-29, having the advantage of unifying the engine, avionics and radar of the Su-27. And they had a chance to appear in the mid-90s, but by that time the Union had collapsed and funding had ceased.
              So Sukhoi (and the MiG Design Bureau too) had a desire to build a single-engine LFMI for a long time. MiG, for example, has long had a project for a single-engine STEALTH fighter... the project of which formed the basis for this very “Chekmat”.
              You know that Sukhoi absorbed the MiG design bureau, right? And he appropriated many of his developments?
              Quote: abc_alex
              “Sukhoi” with its lobby no longer knows how else to drag the country down,

              The Sukhovites developed the Su-75 as an export product, and the Defense Ministry became interested in it only after the Northern Military District got too hot. Now they want the Su-75 in the Aerospace Forces.

              Quote: abc_alex
              the fleet does not have a sane missile-carrying aircraft

              How could you think that the Knight of Malta would acquire such terrible things against his brothers?
              But now it will have to.
              Quote: abc_alex
              but the troops have two identical, but not unified information security systems!

              belay What are these?? No more mantras about the Su-30SM and Su-34 ..?
              Take it easy, the Su-30SM\SM2 is an MFI - a multifunctional fighter and nothing more. But the Su-34\Su-34M is quite a FRONT BOMBER. This is how it is written in his classification. This is a purely attack aircraft... which, in principle, can fight back with its RVV MD at a range of up to 40 km.. It seems that the RVV SD is not prescribed for it... although I could be wrong about this.
              Su-30SM\SM2 are entering service with Naval Aviation regiments.
              And Su-34s constitute the main striking power of Frontline Aviation.
              And yes, in their new modifications the Su-34M and Su-30SM2 are already much more unified.
              Quote: abc_alex
              And no prospects for a quick renewal of the park!

              Wow, how categorical.
              But what about the Su-34M already arriving this year?
              Su-30SM2 with radar and avionics from the Su-35S?
              And next year they promise (they are on assembly lines) Su-35SM with avionics and ballistic missile systems from the Su-57.
              And even the Yak-130M, which is preparing for testing as an attack aircraft with new engines.
              What about the Su-57M with second stage engines and updated avionics?
              Already. Yes
              And of course the MiG-35S, which cannot be avoided in a major series. bully
              And what about the NINE new (newly formed) air regiments being formed now?
              1. +4
                7 December 2023 00: 38
                Quote: bayard
                And they achieved their goal - the 4th generation bestseller, the F-16, appeared in the USA.
                And now you want to argue whose concept is better?


                Undoubtedly. Moreover, I want confirmation of the correctness of ANY US decision and any of their concepts. Since they have five “technology demonstrators” per F-16, it turns out that Falcon turned out to be a bestseller (which literally means bestseller) only means that the Americans are skillfully selling it. And not that they found a magical way to continue the flight of the aircraft after its only engine was hit by a rocket. Now the Falcons will appear over Ukraine and it will be possible to compare.

                What Sukhoi and MiG wanted to do there is a purely optional question. They could at least design a motorless aircraft - that’s their business. The military gave a clear order and technical specifications. Two motors. Apparently they know something about the value of the life of a trained pilot, which the designers of single-engine aircraft do not take into account.

                Quote: bayard
                The Sukhovites developed the Su-75 as an export product, and the Defense Ministry became interested in it only after the Northern Military District got too hot. Now they want the Su-75 in the Aerospace Forces.

                Well, yes. There are so many countries in the world that are ready to buy military equipment that is not used in the army of the manufacturing country. :)
                Where did you get the idea that the plane was even developed beyond a plywood mockup? That’s the first question. And second, what makes you think that the VKS want him? Well, the third question, what makes you think that putting it into series will not be the same long-term hemorrhoids as it is now with the Su-57? The fact that videoconferencing needs inexpensive serial mass information security is beyond doubt. But where and when did Sukhoi manage to create an inexpensive and mass-produced aircraft in post-Soviet times? And what does SVO have to do with it? Even if everything goes well, this checkmate will reach the runway in at least 10 years. At a dry pace, if...

                Quote: bayard
                No more mantras about the Su-30SM and Su-34 ..?

                No. I'm talking about the Su-30 and Su-35. The Su-34 is a completely different aircraft.

                Quote: bayard
                Su-30SM\SM2 are entering service with Naval Aviation regiments.

                And what's good about that? What can this car carry? One Onyx missile? Do you think one missile per plane is not good? How many Su-30s do you need to organize a strike against the US AUG? 200 boards? In total, under previous contracts from 2012 to 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense received 116 Su-30SM fighters, of which 22 were delivered to the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy. How many years does it take to form MRA at this rate? 180 years? We don’t have one fleet, but at least three.

                Quote: bayard
                Su-34s constitute the main striking power of Frontline Aviation

                My opinion is this. If we are talking about information security, then the basis of front-line aviation should be MiG aircraft, as it was intended in the USSR, as it was scientifically justified when setting the task for the 27\29 competition. The Su-30 needs to stop being delivered and produced. Instead, as has always been done, develop a two-seat version of the Su-35UB. Make the Su-34 a strike aircraft for front-line aviation and navy. Otherwise, in a few years we will end up with logistics hell in VKS. After all, the Su-30, Su-35 and Su-34 are different aircraft, their production volume is actually one-piece, the degree of unification is negligible.

                Quote: bayard
                But what about the Su-34M already arriving this year?
                Su-30SM2 with radar and avionics from Su-35S

                Calculate how many years it will take to completely update the VKS IS fleet and replace all MiG-29, Su-27, Su-24. At the same time, neither the Su-30 nor the Su-34 are new, they still have 10-20 years of production and this is already “everything needs to be changed there.” But the same Su-34 is a thing in itself, it is not an open platform MiG-29M2. Yes, the avionics on the Su-30 will be replaced with equipment from the Su-35. But why then is it needed, the Su-30?

                Quote: bayard
                What about the Su-57M with second stage engines and updated avionics?
                Already

                TIME! It was necessary to update our Air Force fleet yesterday. Almost all classes of combat aviation in our country now need replacement, and Pogosyanovism has led to the fact that we essentially have only one design bureau left alive.
                We are talking about the fact that information security systems are produced at the rate of 100 pieces per year and distributed to all branches of the military. And we also have a question of updating the long-range high-altitude interceptor. And on the long-range bomber. Both for a reconnaissance aircraft and for a small AWACS aircraft. Who will do all this? Do you think MiG knows how to communicate with the spirits of Soviet engineers who have passed on to the next world? Over the decades of the Ministry of Defense ignoring the design bureau’s developments there, the technical potential has not grown, I assure you.
                And Sukhoi proposes to add to his zoo of models incompatible with each other, this same checkmate, which will also be very different.

                I'm not against Sukhoi's cars, understand. I consider the policy of forming a fleet of fighter aircraft to be irrational. And I am sure that if Pogosyanovism (an attempt to form a fleet of aerospace forces based on the heavy twin-engine jet of the Su-27 family) is not stopped in the near future, it will not be possible to update the fleet of vehicles in a reasonable time. There will not be enough production capacity and design potential.

                I think we need to stop feeding the hippopotamus, he won’t get enough. Dismantle the Su-30 project, leave one heavy Su-35 IB in single and two-seat versions, one attack aircraft for the army and navy Su-34 and one front-line light IB MiG-29M2 in modifications of the Mig-35 and the variants available for it. Well, what nonsense is happening now: the VKS flies on machines that are half a century old, the developer is creating one wunderwaffe after another, and aircraft manufacturing facilities are idle across the country. And everyone walks in circles, as if in a dream...
        2. +1
          6 December 2023 11: 27
          The Su-57's avionics simply won't fit there. Then with it it will cost like a Su-57. And what's the point? And, there are a couple more nuances. To what extent are we generally able to produce “offal” from the Su-57 serially in the desired quantities? Don't forget that there is also a Hunter.
          1. +2
            6 December 2023 21: 38
            Quote: Dimax-Nemo
            The Su-57's avionics simply won't fit there.

            Well, you can’t shove the entire set of avionics into the Su-75. The same radar will probably be truncated - not four all-angle canvases, but one in the nose of a smaller area, perhaps with the ability to rotate the canvas left and right, like the Irbis Su-35S. Engine - one. Take-off weight is almost two times less. And the purchase price for aerospace forces from the Su-57 is not so high as to frighten the average person. In this capacity, it is perhaps even cheaper than the tiny Swedish “Grippen”.
            Quote: Dimax-Nemo
            To what extent are we generally able to produce “offal” from the Su-57 serially in the desired quantities? Don't forget that there is also a Hunter.

            I think that there are sufficient opportunities - they have been prepared for many years, precisely with an eye to expanded production. And what manufacturer is not happy about the increase in orders? And a large series, in turn, leads to a reduction in costs.
            And of course, the entire key component base is domestic. And delays in the launch of mass production were associated, among other things. tightening up suppliers in this regard.
            1. +1
              14 February 2024 07: 50
              The question is, can we make Belka and so on for more than a dozen Su-57s per year? Which can hardly be called "advanced production". It seems that Rostec did not prepare for the SVO at all.
              It is too early to talk about the take-off weight of the Su-75 “half as much”, and even more so about the price “less than Gippen”. The plane hadn't even taken off yet.
              The “same engine” is exactly the problem. A very serious problem. Such machines require rather large machines, which UEC purchases almost individually. And it’s no wonder if it’s hundreds of millions of rubles. From 200, let’s say (and these are still pre-pandemic prices). And some kind of unicycle, even on such a monster, can take a very long time. Two weeks, maybe even three. Especially if you save on something, as our bosses like to do. Buy a Mercedes, and then look for used tires and not pay for parking - that’s our way.
              And, again, I’m hinting to you. The Hunter has exactly the same engine.
    2. 0
      5 December 2023 10: 13
      MiGs regularly shot down EAFs and Mirages and for some reason this didn’t ring a bell for them, maybe after all “it’s not the woman’s fault...”?
    3. +2
      6 December 2023 02: 53
      Quote: Feodor13
      Regularly shot down MiG-29s of the Ukrainian Air Force are a ringing bell for the MiG.


      The MiG-29 of Ukraine and even the MiG-29SMT of the Russian Aerospace Forces are already different machines. And the Mig-29M2, on the platform of which the MiG-35S will be made, is generally a completely new aircraft, a further development of the ship line.

      Quote: Feodor13
      After the SVO, by inertia, our defense industry will still produce the Su-30/35

      She won't "stamp" anything. There are no countries in the world capable of producing an air force consisting of heavy fighters. Simply no. Even the USA cannot do this.
      Especially if this stupid farce with the Su-30 and Su-35 continues.

      Quote: Feodor13
      and there is already a fifth generation.

      Get over this “fifth generation” already. This is a standard and not a set of characteristics, but a marketing stamp.
      Our videoconferencing needs mass modern information security, and not Lohokid Martin’s advertising brochures. And it is absolutely obvious that neither the Su-30, nor the Su-35, and especially not the Su-57 can become such. Moreover, for the tasks of direct support of troops and control of the sky in the front line and rear, Sukhoi’s vehicles are simply SUPERNUAL. Now the SVO is underway. The range of aviation does not exceed 100-200 kilometers. Why are we looking for planes with a range of more than 2 thousand kilometers? Fly along the border perimeter?
  8. +6
    5 December 2023 06: 23
    It can be said that practically no one worked on the aircraft, as they did with the Su-27 platform. The Zhuk-A radar was never brought into production. The engines are the same.
    You can probably push him to African countries, but he has no future no matter how you look at it.
    1. 0
      5 December 2023 08: 40
      Quote: FRoman1984
      The Zhuk-A radar was never brought into production.

      It would be funny to launch a radar system into series without starting mass production of the MiG-35S. The AFAR for the MiG-35S was ready for mass production, just like the MiG-35S itself.
      - The machinations of Manturov and Co. ?? angry
      - They . Yes
      Quote: FRoman1984
      You can probably push him to African countries, but he has no future no matter how you look at it.

      And that is why the MiG-35S is being launched into mass production and there are several (at least two) foreign customers for it. The Russian Aerospace Forces will also purchase MiG-35S.
      Quote: FRoman1984
      he has no future no matter how you look at it.

      In light of what is going to happen (sorry, tautology) to the world in the next 10 years, the demand for precisely such aircraft in our country will only increase. Because this is the best offer in terms of price-quality ratio, the MiG-35S is much easier for former MiG-29 operators to master; for the cost of one Rafale you can buy THREE MiG-35S with a set of weapons, spare parts and everything due. And at the same time, it is quite equivalent to the Rafale.
      And apparently precisely because no one needs the old MiG-29s, the United States and England went crazy looking for and buying them all over the world for very decent money for their age and condition. But they could just supply their own F-16s. But they fear shame with them even more than defeat of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
      1. +1
        5 December 2023 12: 35
        And apparently precisely because no one needs the old MiG-29s, the United States and England went crazy looking for and buying them all over the world for very decent money for their age and condition. But they could just supply their own F-16s.

        Apparently because the MiG-29 is a familiar aircraft for Ukrainian pilots. There is no need to retrain. And also because there were several dozen of these machines at hand in Eastern Europe. It was good as a palliative, especially since no one feels sorry for the Ukrainians there.
        This does not cancel the ongoing training of selected pilots on the F-16. We'll see pretty soon, I think.
        1. +1
          5 December 2023 20: 27
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          There were several dozen of these machines on hand in Eastern Europe.

          Not only in Europe, but throughout Africa and Asia, traveling salesmen traveled, collecting everything Soviet from ammunition and rifles to tanks and aircraft. I wouldn’t be surprised if India also ditched its MiG-29s from its first purchases, because right on the eve of our SVO, it requested an URGENT (!) delivery of a large batch of MiG-29s from the AVAILABILITY of the RF Ministry of Defense (about 50 units) supposedly for high-mountain airfields in the Himalayas.
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          F-16 pilots. We'll see pretty soon, I think.

          Holland is already refusing to supply its F-16s, funding is being curtailed, and supplies are being reduced. The USA and NATO burned their strategic reserves of ammunition and old weapons in Ukraine, spent a lot of money, and now they only dream of a truce in order to preserve their assets in used condition.
          1. +1
            6 December 2023 11: 32
            Not only in Europe, but throughout Africa and Asia, traveling salesmen traveled, collecting everything Soviet from ammunition and rifles to tanks and airplanes

            The MiG-29 is not a shooter after all. And in Africa it was operated by the air forces of 4 countries. I have not heard, however, that Algeria, for example, supplied weapons to Ukraine. Therefore, the main source is the countries of Eastern Europe (maybe they found something in South America).
            I wouldn’t be surprised if India also ditched its MiG-29s from its first purchases

            Does India supply Ukraine with MiG-29 before the North Military District? Well, that's completely unlikely. However, you can come up with anything.
            Holland is already refusing to supply its F-16s,

            Of course not. There were concerns that the election results could affect arms supplies from the Netherlands. In principle, whatever the United States says, so it will be. In the end, the world did not converge in the Netherlands in terms of the F-16 fleet.
            But the training of Ukrainian pilots for these machines has been going on for several months now.
            The US and NATO burned their strategic ammunition reserves and old weapons in Ukraine

            Can you imagine the volume of old weapons stored in the United States, for example?
            and now they only dream of a truce in order to preserve their assets on a used basis.

            If the United States dreams of anything, it is to continue the positional meat grinder in the current format.
            1. 0
              6 December 2023 19: 17
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              In the end, the world did not converge in the Netherlands in terms of the F-16 fleet.

              So Belgium has already postponed the delivery of its own to 2025. And so far no one has firmly promised them anything more.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              If the United States dreams of anything, it is to continue the positional meat grinder in the current format.

              This is certainly true, the question is that presidential elections are beginning in the United States and the question of used has become the main tool in the struggle of the contenders. And the allocation of funds and resources for the Armed Forces of Ukraine is not at all popular now. Therefore, they need a break - to lure the Russian Federation into negotiations, gain time and then start all over again.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Does India supply Ukraine with MiG-29 before the North Military District?

              India has ordered an urgent delivery of a large batch of MiG-29s for high-altitude airfields. Deliveries to used ones through gaskets could have happened already during the SVO. Moreover, both old aircraft and spare parts for the restoration of the APU in storage.
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              Can you imagine the volume of old weapons stored in the United States, for example?

              I can imagine it perfectly. The question is primarily about ammunition, and the delivery of the equipment itself from storage requires restoration repairs and transportation costs. And this is money. At the moment, all previously allocated funds have run out. And the worst thing is that the USA and NATO no longer see the prospects of not only victory, but also a successful confrontation with Russia. And it’s high time for them to deal with China.
              Therefore, it is likely that used ones will be drained. Perhaps for the sake of buying Russia's neutrality in their competition with China. So there were statements that the used one might not survive the next year, and that such a state would no longer exist at all. I think this is preparing the electorate in case an agreement can be reached.
          2. +2
            6 December 2023 12: 01
            They ordered an “emergency” batch because the fuss with Rafal essentially ended in nothing. The issue with the light fighter remained unresolved. At the same time, the MiG-21 and MiG-27 are written off - the veterans served their Motherland well and there. And the Indians have on their back not only Pakistan with the F-16 and fairly fresh missiles, but also China.
  9. +1
    5 December 2023 07: 02
    No matter how MiG is quietly bankrupted and sold off, although there are hopes for salvation, albeit illusory, they are still designing something like the Mig-41
    1. +8
      5 December 2023 08: 39
      They have been gone for a long time. Mig merged with Sukhoi. Given the reality, the dry one absorbed the moment.
  10. +5
    5 December 2023 07: 04
    So the great Admiral Gorshkov had no fools at his headquarters when they relied on cruisers with vertical take-off and landing aircraft and ski-jumps.

    This is yes.
    1. No need for a catapult.
    2. No finishers needed.
    3. You can fight in the North almost without restrictions.
    4. Health of pilots.
    5. You can make a single large ship - AB + UDC.
    6. The main thing. We IN PRINCIPLE can build such a ship. Even now.

    All you need is a plane. wink
    1. +2
      5 December 2023 19: 23
      Quote: Arzt
      1. No need for a catapult.
      2. No finishers needed.

      3. The air group does not have AWACS.
      4. The combat radius and load are multiples less than that of ejection vehicles (and this means the depth of air defense and patrol time).
      In general, the result will be a mass-dimensional model of an aircraft carrier. Eating money like a real one.
      Quote: Arzt
      4. Health of pilots.

      On "on deck - smack"? © wink
      1. 0
        5 December 2023 20: 27
        . No finishers needed.

        3. The air group does not have AWACS.
        4. The combat radius and load are multiples less than that of ejection vehicles (and this means the depth of air defense and patrol time).
        In general, the result will be a mass-dimensional model of an aircraft carrier. Eating money like a real one.
        Quote: Arzt
        4. Health of pilots.

        On "on deck - smack"? © wink

        3. I agree, the most serious minus. Another option is a helicopter.
        4. Not a multiple. Minus 20%. The combat radius of the F-35A is 1080 km, the F-35-B is 833 km. Combat load 8160 and 6800 respectively.
        Quite acceptable.

        Not a mock-up, but an escort aircraft carrier. Just what we need; escort the caravan, cover nuclear submarine areas, provide landing on the coast (AV + UDC in one bottle). Yes

        For deck workers, retinal detachment is an occupational disease.
        1. +1
          6 December 2023 08: 38
          Quote: Arzt
          Not a multiple. Minus 20%. The combat radius of the F-35A is 1080 km, the F-35-B is 833 km. Combat load 8160 and 6800 respectively.

          I strongly apologize, but why are you comparing the F-35 with the F-35A? The thirty-fifth is flawed due to unification. You can compare it with an airplane that was created as a normal one, but the Super Hornet, for example.
          And - don’t compare combat radii. There can be a lot of shenanigans with the flight profile, combat load, afterburner time, time to complete a combat mission, etc. I’m hinting - the Super Hornet, with a ferry range of 3300 km, usually has a combat radius of 726 km. And for the F-35A, with a ferry range of 2200, it is miraculously 1140 km.
          N-thimbles... Look at the ferry range, it will be more accurate
          1. +1
            6 December 2023 13: 27
            I strongly apologize, but why are you comparing the F-35 with the F-35A? The thirty-fifth is flawed due to unification. You can compare it with an airplane that was created as a normal one, but the Super Hornet, for example.
            And - don’t compare combat radii. There can be a lot of shenanigans with the flight profile, combat load, afterburner time, time to complete a combat mission, etc. I’m hinting - the Super Hornet, with a ferry range of 3300 km, usually has a combat radius of 726 km. And for the F-35A, with a ferry range of 2200, it is miraculously 1140 km.
            N-thimbles... Look at the ferry range, it will be more accurate

            For a combat mission, will you focus on the ferry range? I wouldn't risk it laughing
            In terms of combat load, the ejection Honneth F has the same 8 tons.

            But these are generally incomparable things. As for me, stealth is an order of magnitude more effective. No fools. 10 times.
            They endured Iraqi air defense comparable to the Moscow zone in 3 nights without losses. Yes
            1. 0
              6 December 2023 13: 35
              Quote: Arzt
              For a combat mission, will you focus on the ferry range?

              Please re-read my comment again. You are asked to evaluate the aircraft's flight range not by its combat radius, but by its ferry range. Because the combat radius is calculated very differently, and you can’t just take two numbers from the wiki and compare them
              Quote: Arzt
              In my opinion, stealth is more effective

              No question, compare with the F-22 with its ferry 3220
              1. 0
                6 December 2023 14: 03
                For a combat mission, will you focus on the ferry range?

                Please re-read my comment again. You are asked to evaluate the aircraft's flight range not by its combat radius, but by its ferry range. Because the combat radius is calculated very differently, and you can’t just take two numbers from the wiki and compare them

                I re-read it. The question is the same.
                You are the commander of an aircraft carrier's air wing. When planning a strike on the enemy, will you calculate the distance for aircraft based on the ferry range or the combat radius? what

                I know you know, I'll just remind you.
                Ferry range - flight range in the absence of a commercial or combat load with a fuel reserve determined by the limitations on the strength of the aircraft, and with the minimum equipment necessary to complete the mission.
                Combat radius - this is the distance at which a combat aircraft can complete the assigned mission with a specified fuel supply and return to its home airfield.
                1. +3
                  6 December 2023 14: 36
                  Quote: Arzt
                  I re-read it. The question is the same.

                  That is, they still haven’t re-read it. Or have I lost the ability to explain clearly? request
                  Quote: Arzt
                  You are the commander of an aircraft carrier's air wing. When planning a strike on the enemy, will you calculate the distance for aircraft based on the ferry range or the combat radius?

                  By combat radius. Which will vary depending on the assigned combat mission.
                  If I need to escort a strategic bomber flying to bomb someone, then I take the combat radius for an aircraft with a standard load for air combat (2 medium- and short-range air attack missiles with a total weight of 800 kg) along a high-altitude flight profile at subsonic speed. This combat radius will be 1300 km.
                  If I need to launch a missile strike on an identified target outside the range of the anti-aircraft missile system, then I take the combat radius taking into account 2 missile launchers, a pair of air attack missiles (1,5 tons) and a high-altitude flight profile at subsonic speed. This combat radius will be 1000 km.
                  If I need to bomb a UAB target covered by an air defense system, then I take two tons of UAB and subsonic flight along a variable low-altitude profile. This combat radius will be 800 km.
                  If I urgently need to cover reconnaissance marines who are surrounded by spirits, I take 6 tons of bombs and go supersonic - this combat radius will be 400 km.
                  And another 100500 combat radii, depending on load, speed, etc.
                  So here it is. When you look up "combat radius" in a reference book, you don't know what exactly combat radius is meant. And compare warm with soft.
                  But the ferry range is simpler, as follows from the definition. It is more difficult to lie and mislead here. And if you see that the F-35B is inferior to the Super Hornet by a third in terms of ferry range, rest assured that in terms of combat radius, FOR A COMPARABLE TASK, it will lose to the Super Hornet by a third
              2. 0
                6 December 2023 14: 16
                In my opinion, stealth is more effective

                No question, compare with the F-22 with its ferry 3220

                We compare the effectiveness of ejection carrier-based aircraft and VTOL aircraft.
                The F-35C and F35B are the best options.
                They already exist, they are of the same type, they are stealth (I hope ours will be too). The F-22 is not available as a VTOL aircraft, as far as I know.

                Here is the data from WIKI. The difference is 25%. But B will also take off from the deck of the UDC.
                1. 0
                  6 December 2023 14: 40
                  Quote: Arzt
                  The F-35C and F35B are the best options.

                  No. Because it is necessary to compare 2 aircraft, one of which is created as a VTOL aircraft, and the other as a horizontal take-off and landing aircraft without regard to VTOL aircraft, while both must be created at the same technical level.
                  You take the F-35A as the standard of a horizontal take-off aircraft, which CLEARLY is not one, because its capabilities were sacrificed with unification with the F-35B.
                  Simply put, if the F-35A had been designed without unification with a VTOL aircraft, the difference would not have been 25%, but 50
                  1. 0
                    6 December 2023 15: 32
                    No. Because it is necessary to compare 2 aircraft, one of which is created as a VTOL aircraft, and the other as a horizontal take-off and landing aircraft without regard to VTOL aircraft, while both must be created at the same technical level.
                    You take the F-35A as the standard of a horizontal take-off aircraft, which CLEARLY is not one, because its capabilities were sacrificed with unification with the F-35B.
                    Simply put, if the F-35A had been designed without unification with a VTOL aircraft, the difference would not have been 25%, but 50

                    There are no such combinations. Sea Harrier is also based on the motives; comparison with land ones is not correct at all. The rest is at the level of assumptions.

                    What is there without unification that will allow you to break away 2 times? The difference is in fuel, more of which goes to the vertical. It makes everything dance. Approximately 25% of the weight is.
                    1. +1
                      6 December 2023 15: 44
                      Quote: Arzt
                      What is there without unification that will allow you to break away 2 times? The difference is in fuel, more of which goes to the vertical.

                      :))))
                      Fuel... And even in it you saw only fakor
                      Quote: Arzt
                      more goes to the vertical

                      And the fact that the F-35B only holds 6123 kg in its internal tanks, while the A has 8 kg, doesn’t give any thought?
                      That is, a VTOL aircraft consumes more fuel, but it carries less fuel - despite the fact that the VTOL aircraft is heavier.
                      Why is it harder? Maybe it’s the additional engines or the rotating nozzle + buzzer on the F-35V that have an effect? What about the broken aerodynamic quality of the glider, into which all this needs to be screwed?
                      I don't see anything to argue about here at all.
                      1. 0
                        6 December 2023 20: 10
                        I don't see anything to argue about here at all.

                        Agree. While we are here virtually arguing, the F-35B actually lands on the deck of the helicopter carrier Izumo.


                        The Japanese have already understood everything. Better than a bird in your hand... request
                      2. +1
                        6 December 2023 20: 15
                        Quote: Arzt
                        The Japanese have already understood everything.

                        And they are going to build catapult aircraft carriers
                      3. +1
                        6 December 2023 20: 27
                        And they are going to build catapult aircraft carriers

                        Maybe. But not exactly. What is known for sure is that they are purchasing hundreds of F35Bs for their “helicopter carriers.”
                      4. +1
                        7 December 2023 08: 33
                        Quote: Arzt
                        What is known for sure is that they are purchasing hundreds of F35Bs for their “helicopter carriers.”

                        Yes, because the project to convert Izumo to the F-35C did not work out. In addition, they also have other helicopter carriers, which cannot even theoretically be converted into AB
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Maybe. But not exactly.

                        But it is known for sure that England, having used the F-35B a little, urgently wants to return the catapult to the AB :)))
            2. 0
              9 December 2023 00: 09
              Quote: Arzt
              They endured Iraqi air defense comparable to the Moscow zone in 3 nights without losses.

              Arzt, in your opinion, is the S-300PM “comparable” to the SA-75? Are you really aware of what you are writing about?
        2. +2
          6 December 2023 10: 11
          Quote: Arzt
          3. I agree, the most serious minus. Another option is a helicopter.

          The most important question here is how many helicopters will be needed to ensure 24/7 duty?
          Quote: Arzt
          4. Not a multiple. Minus 20%. The combat radius of the F-35A is 1080 km, the F-35-B is 833 km.

          Why do we need a light unified carrier-based fighter with a catapult? If there is a catapult on deck, then the Navy will immediately demand something “dry”, and even with the possibility of suspending the Onyx. smile
          Quote: Arzt
          Not a mock-up, but an escort aircraft carrier. Just what we need; escort the caravan, cover nuclear submarine areas

          Without your own AWACS aircraft? Fantastic...
          1. -1
            6 December 2023 13: 44
            3. I agree, the most serious minus. Another option is a helicopter.

            The most important question here is how many helicopters will be needed to ensure 24/7 duty?
            ........
            Without your own AWACS aircraft? Fantastic...

            AWACS helicopters. There are precedents.
            Westland Sea King AEW.2/AEW.5/ASaC7
            Kamov Ka-31.
            It's enough to intercept the CD. 4 pieces.
            And it could be based on MI-26. And this is already a good antenna. wink

            Why do we need a light unified carrier-based fighter with a catapult? If there is a catapult on deck, then the Navy will immediately demand something “dry”, and even with the possibility of suspending the Onyx. smile

            That's the point - to do without a catapult.
            The catapult and finishers are the main problem with AB. Technically complex (for us), of little use in the North, harmful overloads.
            They appeared out of despair, then it was impossible to make a VTOL aircraft.

            Now - quite. The performance characteristics of VTOL aircraft are 25% lower than ejection aircraft, but I think this can be neglected. The benefits outweigh the benefits. Especially if you combine AB and UDC in one bottle. There it will be possible to recruit any group of aircraft.
            1. 0
              7 December 2023 10: 21
              Quote: Arzt
              AWACS helicopters. There are precedents.
              Westland Sea King AEW.2/AEW.5/ASaC7
              Kamov Ka-31.

              Air duty. 100/150. At a distance of XNUMX-XNUMX km from the warrant.
              How many helicopters will be needed to replace 4 ejection AWACS aircraft? wink
              Quote: Arzt
              They appeared out of despair, then it was impossible to make a VTOL aircraft.

              Quite the opposite: these KVVP aircraft appeared from the impossibility of making a normal full-fledged aircraft with full-fledged deck-based aircraft. When your own government kills a nuclear aircraft carrier right on the slipway and decommissions the Phantom carrier, you will be glad to see the Harrier. I’m not even talking about our dances around the Yaks - because the projects of our TAVKR were approved by the Ministry of Defense based not on tactical or operational considerations, but solely on the will of the Minister of Defense, who cut the “weapon of imperialist aggression” to the quick and by order established the composition of the air group only from VTOL aircraft..
  11. +5
    5 December 2023 07: 06
    The MiG company had something to think about if it had not been methodically killed. And who is the killer? And the Su corporation. Which comes out of many years of being on the sidelines during the Soviet era. And people from Su settled in the leadership of the KLA. KB Yak was killed, the company Il was relegated to the ground floor. The Tupolevs are not involved in civil aviation, but why should they be allowed to do so? Yes, they don’t do anything new at all. Not allowed.
    MiGs began to be killed after model 1.44, a direct competitor to the Su-57.
    A very promising device was allowed to make ONE flight. And then he was condemned as unfinished, unpromising, etc. And finally, Su aircraft are our everything.
    So what kind of work by Mikoyan and Gurevich (may they rest in peace) can we talk about?
    1. PPD
      +2
      5 December 2023 12: 56
      The MiG company had something to think about if it had not been methodically killed. And who is the killer? A corporation Su

      Just in case, the moment 29 and sous were done according to a single task, and if the moment worked out, it turned out that only the company itself was to blame.
      And no one else. Nobody methodically killed anyone for a moment.
      We managed it ourselves.
      MiGs regularly shot down EAFs and Mirages
      moment 29 if they were shot down, it would be somewhere in a parallel universe.
      This is the merit of moments 21 and 23.
      And if the car didn’t work out, there was no point in it
      The moment had to be persistently promoted
      and come up with all sorts of easy and front-line...
      And Su is definitely not to blame for such wrong actions by the management.
      1. +2
        6 December 2023 11: 24
        Poghosyan is to blame. Although, of course, responsibility should not be removed from the management of RSK MiG.
    2. +2
      6 December 2023 10: 15
      Quote: U-58
      KB Yak was killed,

      Yakovlev's design bureau rested only on the old merits and support of Ustinov. Only under him were the Yakovlevites able to pull off such tricks as serial production and pushing into the Air Force aircraft that were not officially accepted into service (in the amount of several hundred). Or the directive imposition of KVVP aircraft on the fleet.
      1. +2
        6 December 2023 12: 05
        Oh, come on. Savitsky flew around the districts on a Yak. By the way, at that time there was a separate “office” from the Air Force. And the Air Force had nowhere to escape from the Yaks. For lack of anything better.
        Exactly the same as for the fleet from verticals. When 1143 was laid down, the aircraft carrier had not yet been penetrated.
  12. Eug
    +3
    5 December 2023 07: 10
    I read that the main complaint of the Indians is that the MiG-29K has a real landing speed higher than the declared one, plus very poor controllability on it, because of this, the pilots constantly violate the landing regime and “bang” the plane on the deck. How true this is - who knows...
  13. +2
    5 December 2023 08: 33
    when hot water freezes faster than cold water. Why this happens, scientists are still scratching their heads today.
    “It’s elementary, Watson!” (c) Write a non-stationary heat balance equation and you’ll get everything. So there is no need to slander scientists.
  14. +3
    5 December 2023 08: 54
    I gave a plus for an idea that coincides with mine: the Mig-29K has not been sufficiently modified for an aircraft carrier, the landing speed is high, the horizontal tail area is insufficient (on the F-35C and Su-33KUB, for example, the wing has an increased area), the supposedly reinforced landing gear does not work as well must. Plus, this one has the disadvantages of the Vikra - a shorter and “cramped” deck. Well, the “traditional” disadvantages of Klimov engines. That’s why they mostly stay with us.
    1. -1
      5 December 2023 09: 26
      Quote: d4rkmesa
      Mig-29K is not sufficiently modified for an aircraft carrier, landing speed is high

      What is she like now? Which one should it be?

      Quote: d4rkmesa
      The area of ​​the horizontal tail is insufficient

      The “regular” MiG-29 (9-12) raises the front strut at a speed of 160-180 km/h. And the 9-41 has an increased stabilizer area.

      Quote: d4rkmesa
      The supposedly reinforced chassis does not work as it should.

      How should it work? Why supposedly? Look at the photo.

      Quote: d4rkmesa
      Well, the “traditional” disadvantages of Klimov engines.

      What are their disadvantages?
      1. -1
        5 December 2023 13: 23
        The plane lands on an aircraft carrier accelerating. To go for a second round. This is what is meant.
        1. +3
          5 December 2023 20: 12
          Quote: mmaxx
          The plane lands on an aircraft carrier accelerating. To go for a second round.

          You are not right. The aircraft travels at a landing speed of 240-260 km/h. The main thing is to get to 2-3, the edge is 4 arrestor cable. Engine speed is reduced when braking begins. If this is not the case, then no one turns on the afterburner, because in the first 3-5 seconds the afterburner thrust does not increase, but falls. This is how Timur Apakidze crashed at the show... I don’t know how realistic it is to go to the 2nd circle if the arresting arrester misses, but at one time I had the misfortune of watching how planes fell over the edge of the flight deck...
          AHA.
          1. 0
            5 December 2023 21: 27
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            Engine speed is reduced when braking begins. If this is not the case, then no one turns on the afterburner, because in the first 3-5 seconds the afterburner thrust does not increase, but falls.

            Before touching the handle to the PF stop:

          2. +1
            6 December 2023 03: 35
            One thing can be said: “A good aircraft carrier is a big aircraft carrier.”
          3. 0
            6 December 2023 12: 06
            At maximum throttle, it seems.
        2. +1
          5 December 2023 21: 23
          Quote: mmaxx
          The plane lands on an aircraft carrier accelerating. To go for a second round. This is what is meant.

          This is just a new word in landing technique laughing Watch from 1:05, pay attention to the indication:

      2. 0
        10 December 2023 18: 30
        I apologize, after some changes on the site, it is not always possible to follow the answers.
        The landing speed of the Mig-29K is 250-260 km/h, but on the Vikra it can be higher; the supposedly close location of the “island” creates vortex flows that can introduce disturbances. The F/A-18, for example, has 240-260 km/h, not to say significantly less, but we don’t know the real conditions. On forums like F16, some write lower values.
        Competitors have a larger wing area; they actually went all out on the F-35C, making it as much as 40% larger.
        Regarding the chassis, they write in the books that initially other alloys were planned for the landing gear and some parts of the fuselage, but a compromise had to be made. It was the chassis that the Indians eventually began to complain about after some use.
        The RD-33, although it was quite good for its time, was practically not developed, has an insufficient resource and a problematic digital control system (for new models). Unfortunately, UEC Klimov is not practically involved in the development of its engines; what we have now was developed back in the 90s.
        1. 0
          10 December 2023 21: 15
          Quote: d4rkmesa
          The landing speed of the Mig-29K is 250-260 km/h, but on the Vikra it can be higher; the supposedly close location of the “island” creates vortex flows that can introduce disturbances. The F/A-18, for example, has 240-260 km/h, not to say significantly less, but we don’t know the real conditions. On forums like F16, some write lower values.

          As they say, no comment



          Video of the MiG-29K landing in the next post.

          Quote: d4rkmesa
          Regarding the chassis, they write in the books that initially other alloys were planned for the landing gear and some parts of the fuselage, but a compromise had to be made.

          What car are we talking about? 9-31 or 9-41? Their chassis are strikingly different.

          Quote: d4rkmesa
          The RD-33, although it was quite good for its time, was practically not developed, has an insufficient resource and a problematic digital control system (for new models).

          Again, how much is enough? What specific problems?
  15. +4
    5 December 2023 09: 19
    The tradition, by the way, has continued to this day. The Navy has its own, the Air Force has its own. And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was chic for its time, for the needs of the Air Force (yes, a little expensive, however) or the F/A-18, and vice versa, adapting the F-15 or F-16 for the fleet. To each his own, but this is the USA with its budgets.


    In the States, the aviation lobby is very strictly divided between branches of the military. Although there are exceptions - F-4, A-7. And there are plenty of examples when naval aircraft were used in the air forces of other countries (A-4, A-7, F-14, F-18) - Switzerland, Finland, Iran, Israel.
    And the F-15s proposed for the fleet lost not because of shortcomings in performance characteristics.
    The MiG-29K was supposed to become the main carrier-based aircraft of our fleet, but the lobby in the person of Simonov turned out to be stronger. The same applies to the MiG-35. Although there is a chance that the SVO will encourage the military to take aircraft not only in terms of efficiency, but also in terms of cost.
    1. 0
      10 December 2023 18: 32
      Miracles do not happen; underfunding ultimately played a final role in the fate of the Mig29K and Mig-35. Although, who knows, maybe they still carry an AFAR radar on the MiG-35. All the money went dry.
  16. +14
    5 December 2023 09: 23
    Here, unfortunately, Roman has collected all possible aircraft carrier myths :))))) And, so as not to get bored, he added new ones.
    But, seriously, the phrase goes like this: “The USSR was unable to build a steam catapult that would operate in the range from -20 to -40 degrees Celsius.”

    A steam catapult can operate in this range - there are no problems. As a matter of fact, if you look at the design of the steam catapult, we will see that it is located below the deck (only the guides protrude, where steam is supplied at 300 degrees and arguing that it will freeze at -30 is the same as arguing that centralized heating in the north it is impossible - the water will freeze in the pipes :)))))
    There really are problems there - the formation of ice due to steaming. But it's on deck. The catapult itself, which has 2 pistons with a total weight of 5 tons, shoots a steam-gas mixture at 70 atomspheres and is capable of accelerating a 30-ton aircraft at 250 km/h - well, you understand where the catapults saw this ice :)))
    In the USSR, they built and built a working prototype of a steam catapult, but the funny thing is that work on the electromagnetic catapult has advanced so much that they planned to equip Ulyanovsk with them.
    There is such a vile physical phenomenon as the “Mpemba Effect”.

    And here comes alternative physics
    Mpemba effect, or Mpemba paradox - supposed The effect is that hot water can freeze faster than cold water. The funny thing is that the existence of this effect has not been proven :))))
    This is when hot water freezes faster than cold water. Why this happens, scientists are still scratching their heads today.

    Come on:)
    On November 24, 2016, an article was published in the journal “Scientific Reports[en]” (part of the “Nature” group), where the authors claim that in previously published materials there is no clear scientific definition of the effect, they themselves give such a definition and show that when following This definition does not show any effect. They also point out the lack of rigor in the statement “hot water does not cool faster than cold water” (expected behavior) - it is obvious that hot water can be cooled faster than cold water if, for example, the power used for cooling is increased. The article shows, in particular, that when cooling three 400-gram portions of water, identical in everything except for the initial temperature (21,8, 57,3 and 84,7 °C), poured into identical glasses and placed in a thermostatic freezer at −18 °C, hot water took longer to reach zero temperature (6397, 9504 and 10812 seconds respectively), as would be expected according to the first law of thermodynamics

    Those who trust this kind of reasoning
    And steam in the conditions of the White, Bering or Okhotsk Sea will very quickly become ice. It's simple - physics.

    One question. Why do cities in the far north use a central heating system in which the coolant is transferred through pipes? Why doesn't the water freeze in houses? :))) There, in the Far North, don't people teach physics, or what?
    So the great Admiral Gorshkov had no fools at his headquarters when they relied on cruisers with vertical take-off and landing aircraft and ski-jumps.

    The great Admiral Gorshkov relied specifically on ejection aircraft carriers of the US type, but he could not convince the top management of their usefulness. VTOL aircraft were imposed on the fleet by Ustinov when he was Minister of Defense.
    The refusal of catapults on the TAVKR Tbilisi/Baku occurred because Ustinov artificially limited the displacement of the TAVKR to 55 thousand displacement, and the catapult is approximately 3,5 thousand tons.
    To talk about the uselessness of a catapult on a TAVKR, because it cannot do so at -40, is at least strange, if we remember that our TAVKR had to spend a significant part of their time in the Mediterranean Sea, controlling the AUS of the 6th Fleet there. And let’s not forget about the Pacific TAVKR.
    To be continued
    1. +15
      5 December 2023 10: 14
      Next, about airplanes.
      And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was chic for its time, for the needs of the Air Force (yes, a little expensive, however) or the F/A-18, and vice versa, adapting the F-15 or F-16 for the fleet. To each his own, but this is the USA with its budgets.

      As a result, the USA came to F35A/F35C :)))
      But that's not the point. The Americans made different aircraft for the Air Force and Navy for the simple reason that their TASKS were different. What is the F-14? This is, in fact, an analogue of our MiG-25/31 interceptors, oddly enough. It was created in response to the threat of Soviet missile carriers, in order to shoot down both them and the anti-ship missiles they launched from afar. But, unlike the MiGs, it was still oriented towards the airborne weapon, it’s just that the airborne weapon is secondary for the Tomcat. And the primary ones are “Phoenixes” for several targets simultaneously. The Air Force simply did not need such an aircraft; they needed an air superiority aircraft, not an interceptor.
      Same with the Hornets. The Air Force needed a cheap, numerous, multi-role fighter, and they got it - at the cost of the combat radius, and the combat load, of course. F-16. The fleet had much more significant requirements both in terms of flight range and load - so they made the F/A-18
      In fact, it makes absolutely no difference whether to make a specialized naval aircraft from scratch or based on a land aircraft. But! Some land planes are not well suited to carrier-based aircraft. Firstly, if there is no catapult, then there must be a high thrust-to-weight ratio. It's interesting that Roman writes
      The Rafale (24 kg at takeoff) maybe, if you’re lucky, the Griffin (500 kg) for sure, but the Super Hornet with its 14 kg may not even be a dream. Damn physics again. But it won’t take off from the springboard, and if it does take off, it won’t be for very long.

      Appealing to physics, which actually states that it is not the mass that is important, but the thrust-to-weight ratio. And even a hundred-ton one will take off if the engine is suitable :))))
      Secondly, landing speed is extremely important. The smaller it is, the better. Because on roughly 200m of deck it should be reduced to zero. And according to this parameter, the MiG-29K is not good, it loses to the Su-33, despite the fact that the latter is much heavier. And our pilots noted this discomfort
      And the Indians have it even worse, because Vikramaditya’s landing deck is shorter than Kuznetsov’s, and there are three arresting officers there instead of four.
      so the claims of the Indians are not at all out of nowhere.
      1. +13
        5 December 2023 10: 22
        Thirdly, of course, the design of a carrier-based aircraft must be stronger, plus there are special components (hook) that are not needed by a land pilot. So if a land aircraft cannot be strengthened without serious loss of its qualities, it is not suitable for deck aircraft
        So, the Mig-29 was originally designed as a multi-role fighter for the ground air force. Accordingly, the requirements usually placed on a carrier-based fighter when working on an aircraft were not even considered. Moreover, there was already a successful experience of converting the Su-27 into the Su-33, and nothing. It worked.

        Firstly, work on the MiG-29K and Su-33 proceeded in parallel, and the first take-off from the deck was made by the MiG-29 :)))) Secondly, the Su-27 was also designed as a pure land vehicle, and no technical specifications for its sea there was no version, and the Su-33 is precisely a conversion of the Su-27 into a naval aircraft. That is, the Su-33 and MiG-29 have absolutely the same history of being created from absolutely land vehicles. The only difference is that the Su-33 was created on the basis of the basic Su-27, and the MiG was created on the basis of a more advanced modification of the MiG-29M
        Somehow like this:)
        1. +3
          6 December 2023 10: 29
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Thirdly, of course, the design of a carrier-based aircraft must be stronger, plus there are special components (hook) that are not needed by a land pilot.

          Very special knots. smile
          It is necessary not only to fit the hook into the power structure of the aircraft, but also to ensure its interaction with the aero arresting device cable after the aircraft landing gear passes through it. I remember the wonderful story with the landing hook on the F-35C, when the developers stupidly copied and pasted the design from the F/A-18, not paying attention to the fact that the distance between the landing gear and the hook on the Penguin is 2,5 times less. As a result, by the time the hook approached the cable, it found itself at the lowest point of oscillation - in other words, pressed against the deck. With the Hornet, the cable managed to return more or less to the average value. Additionally, the situation was aggravated by an ineffective system for keeping the hook close to the deck, due to which the hook bounced too high when it came into contact with uneven deck surfaces.
          1. +1
            6 December 2023 10: 46
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Very special knots.

            This is without a doubt true
        2. Eug
          0
          22 January 2024 20: 10
          Only the Su-27 had reserves to strengthen the structure, and the MiG-29e (any variant) was made, as they say, “butt-to-tail.”
      2. -1
        5 December 2023 17: 45
        The RAFAL has an afterburner thrust of 2*7500 kgf, the Super Hornet has 2*10 kgf.
        1. +4
          5 December 2023 19: 31
          Quote: vadim dok
          The RAFAL has an afterburner thrust of 2*7500 kgf, the Super Hornet has 2*10 kgf.

          Why are you writing this to me? :))) Firstly, I didn’t write about thrust, but about thrust-to-weight ratio. Secondly, you show the Rafal-M incorrectly, it has 7500 kilonewtons, not 7650 kgf, that’s XNUMX kgf. Thirdly, most likely by analogy with our fighters, they can produce a higher afterburner for a short time during takeoff, but this is not certain.
      3. +1
        6 December 2023 08: 17
        This ship is simply too small for any modern fighter. The Yak-141 had to be completed.
        1. +3
          6 December 2023 08: 45
          We should have built a bigger ship :)))
          1. +1
            6 December 2023 08: 48
            It was necessary to buy from some, as the Chinese later did.
            1. +2
              6 December 2023 09: 08
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              It was necessary to buy from some, as the Chinese later did.

              Didn't understand. Who and what do you offer to buy?
              1. +1
                6 December 2023 09: 34
                Indians buy 1143.6.
                1. +1
                  6 December 2023 10: 21
                  It was difficult, he still stayed behind Ukraine. And so you are right, of course
                  1. +3
                    6 December 2023 12: 07
                    Yes, these would sell their own mother, the question is how much. However, so do we.
    2. 0
      5 December 2023 12: 44
      The refusal of catapults on the TAVKR Tbilisi/Baku occurred because...

      primarily because there was no deck catapult, it was not possible to create one. We were only able to build a service one for auxiliary purposes.
      1. +8
        5 December 2023 13: 23
        Quote from solar
        primarily because there was no deck catapult, it was not possible to create one.

        (shrug) Sergey, please study the history of the creation of 1153 and 1143.5. There are no “failures” there. Gorshkov, with the support of Grechko and Butoma, pushes through the nuclear-powered two-catapult 1976 in 1153, it is for this that NITKA with a steam catapult is built, and suddenly Grechko and Butoma suddenly die. Ustinov cancels the project, and instead of a 70 thousand ton nuclear power plant with two catapults, we build Baku, and the catapult remains useless to anyone. The sailors’ attempt to push catapults onto 1143.5 failed, Ustinov demands another TAVKR, and in the end they barely persuaded him onto the springboard with a displacement of 55 tons. But even for him, the sailors and designers considered the issue of installing a catapult, but did not insist - at 000 non-nuclear, it “doesn’t fit”, greatly reducing the payload
        1. +3
          5 December 2023 14: 43
          Dear Andrey, where are your articles? I probably won’t lie if I tell you. that many visitors to Voennoye Obozrenie missed them. Otherwise, go find yours in the comments...
          1. +7
            5 December 2023 15: 29
            Good afternoon!
            Thanks for the kind words. I was preparing a series dedicated to the armor of Krupp and Harvey. Almost finished, but it became clear that we couldn’t do without an excursion into the shells. I was thinking of writing a review article about shells, preceding the “armor” cycle, but, disgustingly, the article has already stretched into three, and there’s no end in sight, I haven’t even gotten to the armor-piercing tips yet. But I don’t want to post it before the end of the series - due to newly discovered circumstances, I often have to revise what was previously written.
            1. +3
              5 December 2023 16: 32
              Thank you very much for the answer! I really like your articles, especially the series of articles (on different topics). I'll be waiting, good luck!
            2. 0
              6 December 2023 08: 13
              Will there be anything regarding fuses?
              1. +1
                6 December 2023 08: 44
                Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                Will there be anything regarding fuses?

                No, this is a separate and large topic, maybe I’ll get into it someday, but definitely not soon
                1. +2
                  6 December 2023 08: 49
                  Unfortunately, it is quite useless to talk about naval armor-piercing shells and, in general, about penetrating ship armor without taking into account the design features and operation of fuses. And just here in “popular” literature there is practically 0....
                  1. +2
                    6 December 2023 09: 10
                    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                    Unfortunately, it is quite useless to talk about naval armor-piercing shells and, in general, about penetrating ship armor without taking into account the design features and operation of fuses

                    Well, that's your opinion. I don't know what it's based on. So, all my life, the durability of armor and the strength of a projectile were measured by shooting without explosives and a fuse
                    1. 0
                      6 December 2023 09: 36
                      It is useless to measure the “strength” of a projectile and armor if the projectile explodes even before penetrating. The opinion is based on conversations with a person who has read a lot of literature in English. Okuna, for example.
                      1. +2
                        6 December 2023 10: 33
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        It is useless to measure the “strength” of a projectile and armor if the projectile explodes even before penetrating.

                        Armor-piercing shells explode before penetration only in three cases:
                        1. If the fuse is Japanese, from the RYAV period. There is no point in considering this case;
                        2. If the fuse is defective. This is rare, but it happens, technology is technology. There is no point in taking into account defective fuses, the percentage is too small and they don’t make any difference
                        3. If a projectile cannot penetrate an armor plate due to its insufficient “manpower” to penetrate
                        If the fuse of an armor-piercing projectile is set to explode when it hits a plate, or during the process of passing the plate, such a projectile is not armor-piercing (although in some cases, such as the Japanese one in the Russian Army, it was called that way)
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        The opinion is based on conversations with a person who has read a lot of literature in English. Okuna, for example.

                        I prefer documents. And Okun... sorry, but this is the talk of the town
                      2. +1
                        6 December 2023 11: 14

                        Armor-piercing shells explode before penetration only in three cases:
                        1. If the fuse is Japanese, from the RYAV period. There is no point in considering this case;
                        2. If the fuse is defective. This is rare, but it happens, technology is technology. There is no point in taking into account defective fuses, the percentage is too small and they don’t make any difference
                        3. If a projectile cannot penetrate an armor plate due to its insufficient “manpower” to penetrate

                        Strictly speaking, Japanese fuses from the RYAV era simply did not have a slowdown. At all. And they acted exactly as the fuses should have acted without delay. It seems that the same thing (insufficient deceleration, at least) applies to the fuses of Morved’s armor-piercing shells during the Chesme tests. It is necessary to talk about these in relation to 1904-1905, because at that time there were not others at all. But the majority of the masses did not. The British do exactly that.

                        Defects can be different and arise for various reasons. For example, the problems of the notorious Brink fuse have worsened, oddly enough, as a result of...improving technology. The aluminum for the firing pin has become cleaner, and as a result the firing pin has become softer.


                        I prefer documents. And Okun... sorry, but this is the talk of the town

                        It is commendable. That you are reading the documents and that Okun has already become the talk of the town. Such a “narrow” topic.....certainly a very controversial comrade. But, as they say, there are always two points of view. Wrong and mine ;)
                      3. +1
                        6 December 2023 12: 00
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        Strictly speaking, Japanese fuses from the RYAV era simply did not have a slowdown. At all.

                        This is common knowledge.
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        It seems that the same thing (insufficient deceleration, at least) applies to the fuses of Morved’s armor-piercing shells during the Chesme tests.

                        I don't agree. I worked a lot with documents on Chesma's tests, but I don't remember that there was a problem with shells exploding in armor due to insufficient deceleration.
                        Another question is that the shell could have exploded soon after overcoming the armor plate, yes. But this was typical for absolutely all shells - I specifically did an analysis on the Lion in Jutland. Apparently, for those years such deviation was normal.
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        But, as they say, there are always two points of view. Wrong and mine ;)

                        Yes, yes, you're always welcome hi
                      4. 0
                        14 February 2024 09: 07

                        I don't agree. I worked a lot with documents on Chesma's tests, but I don't remember that there was a problem with shells exploding in armor due to insufficient deceleration.

                        Armor-piercing 305-mm 1911 with a tip and Morveda tube 254-mm course plate 0, 427 m/s (83 cables), penetrated to the limit, external explosion,
                        the same conditions, but the “distance” is 65 kb., it penetrated the armor, there was an explosion when passing the plate.
                        Those. In both cases, the projectile as a whole did not penetrate the armor.
                        Moreover, at an angle of 30 degrees at a distance of 83 kb. it didn't even penetrate 125 mm.

                        An armor-piercing gun with an experimental Dzerkovich tube (10DT) was also tested, which was supposed to fire with or without a delay, depending on what kind of obstacle the projectile encountered.

                        83 kb, 0 deg. - It pierced a 254 mm slab, hit the rear slab (the lower deckhouse and exploded.

                        65 kb., 65 deg. - A 229-mm plate was pierced by a shell without a cap and exploded in the “engine room”
                        [/ quote].

                        In both cases, the projectile passed through the armor in its entirety. That's what was required. Rdultovsky writes that 10" shells with a 10DT fuse, even before Chesma, pierced 6" slabs as a whole in 60-70% of cases and tore behind the slab. Not to mention 5DM for mortar shells.

                        The same weapon. The same projectile. But different fuses.

                        [Quote]
                        Another question is that the shell could have exploded soon after overcoming the armor plate, yes. But this was typical for absolutely all shells - I specifically did an analysis on the Lion in Jutland. Apparently, for those years such deviation was normal.


                        It was not at all obsolete for WWII either. The fuse might not have worked at all. But in general, German armor-piercing shells already in WWII turned out to be quite effective ammunition, incl. thanks to the fuses, which had a noticeable (0,025-0,05 sec.) slowdown, so they rushed behind the stove. Shells with Morved tubes of 1911 exploded when passing the plate. That's the whole difference.

                        And, returning to our sheep, the powder retarder in the “Brink tube”, as in the 5DM, 10DT and German ones, is not described.
                      5. +1
                        14 February 2024 09: 25
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        Armor-piercing 305-mm 1911 with a tip and Morveda tube 254-mm course plate 0, 427 m/s (83 cables), penetrated to the limit, external explosion,
                        the same conditions, but the “distance” is 65 kb., it penetrated the armor, there was an explosion when passing the plate.
                        Those. In both cases, the projectile as a whole did not penetrate the armor.

                        What?:)))))))
                        250 mm BB armor was fired with completely different parameters. Only 4 shots
                        The speed of the projectile on the armor was 457 m/sec, the angles of impact with the obstacle were about 80° (deviation from the normal 10°). 285 mm armor was supposed to be penetrated.
                        During shot # 11, everything went smoothly. The armor-piercing one overcame the 250-mm armor plate, hit the opposite wall of the wheelhouse and already then exploded, making a pothole at the point of impact 100 mm deep. When shot # 10, the armor was also broken. But it is not entirely clear when exactly the shell burst occurred - this is not indicated in the report. But, apparently, this happened inside the conning tower, because the force of the explosion tore off the armor plates of the roof, and the adjacent 250-mm plate was simply ripped out of the mountings and deployed.
                        During shot No. 9, a small incident occurred - the shell hit the armor directly opposite the 70-mm floor. As a result, the 250 mm armor plate was pierced, and its corner, measuring approximately 450x600 mm, broke off, and a 70 mm long pothole was found in the 200 mm floor. Therefore, it can be argued that in this case, the projectile not only pierced the armor, but did it with a decent amount of energy, which was enough to damage a horizontally located 70-mm armor steel sheet.
                        And only with shot No. 7 something strange happened - the shell hit the armor plate in exactly the same way, at the same angle of 80° and with the same speed of 457 m/sec, but did not penetrate the armor, exploding as it passed. The result was a pothole 225-250 mm deep: only “shell fragments weighing up to 16 kg” went inside.
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        Moreover, at an angle of 30 degrees at a distance of 83 kb. it didn't even penetrate 125 mm.

                        What is the hit number?
                      6. 0
                        14 February 2024 09: 43
                        What I see is what I sing. Article in the magazine "Armament and Technology". There is no hit number there. The commission's conclusion is also given:
                        "....The armor-piercing 305-mm projectile of 1911 should be considered completely unsatisfactory due to the quality of the tube. It is necessary to accept the Dzerkovich tube, and, apparently (based on experiments) with a greater deceleration, this projectile will be much more effective than a high-explosive , at heading angles of at least 60 degrees, and provided that the passage of the projectile through the plate is guaranteed intact.....
                        .....much more...
                        The final conclusion is that booking Sevastopol is useless."
                      7. +1
                        14 February 2024 10: 14
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        What I see is what I sing. Article in the magazine "Armament and Technology". There is no hit number there.

                        And, excuse me, my scans of archival documents look something like this. Galkevich has all this, if you want, I can try it by email. send me an email (send it to me privately), but it’s 80,5 MB
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        the final conclusion is that booking Sevastopol is nothing

                        This is the position of the authors of the article; there is no such thing in the commission’s conclusion. There are only recommendations to strengthen the armor
                      8. 0
                        14 February 2024 10: 38
                        So it doesn't say anything about the fuse. Which one was he with? 10DT was tested, and Rdultovsky writes about this. The author is actually Titushkin. I doubt that he would attribute his personal opinion to the commission. Another thing is - in what document did he find it? If I can’t find it myself, then I’ll be happy to ask you.
                      9. 0
                        14 February 2024 11: 04
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        The author is actually Titushkin. I doubt that he would attribute his personal opinion to the commission.

                        I don’t have a scan of the document either; Galkevich gives a reprint. If you can find the original, I will be very grateful if you share it. I haven't found it myself yet.
                      10. 0
                        14 February 2024 11: 26
                        By “I’ll find it myself,” I meant the 90 MB that you offered to send me by mail, or anything that Galkevich wrote about them. As for the original, it should have been in some archive in Gatchina. Previously, I received something from Valery Fainberg; alas, neither he nor Vinogradov are with us anymore.
        2. +1
          5 December 2023 19: 24
          it is for this that NITKA with a steam catapult is built


          The fact is that NITKA does not and never had a steam catapult suitable for launching aircraft. They only made a steam-throwing device for the carts used for testing aerofinishers. Not a single plane from NITKA has ever taken off using a catapult.
          ZY pr 1153, by the way, was not a pure aircraft carrier, it was also a TAVKR, it was supposed to carry 20 P-700s. The catapults were supposed to be used on the nuclear-powered pr1143.7 Ulyanovsk, ordered after Ustinov’s death (which, by the way, was also a TAVKR), but they never succeeded in being created.
          1. +3
            5 December 2023 19: 44
            Quote from solar
            The fact is that NITKA does not and never had a steam catapult suitable for launching aircraft. They only made a steam-throwing device for the carts used for testing aerofinishers. Not a single plane from NITKA has ever taken off using a catapult.

            Not a single plane could take off using a catapult for the simple reason that we did not have planes adapted for catapult takeoff. You know, something that doesn't exist can't fly.
            Further. The acceleration device (as it was called in the documents, so as not to irritate the authorities with the catapult) by throwing carts imitated an airplane landing at a speed of 250 km/h. It was successfully imitated - a whole series of tests of aero arresting devices was carried out.
            THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS THAT IS PROVIDED BY THE US C-13 STEAM BOARD
            Quote from solar
            The catapults were supposed to be used on the nuclear-powered pr1143.7 Ulyanovsk, ordered after Ustinov’s death (which, by the way, was also a TAVKR), but they never managed to be created.

            I have to admit that you are completely unaware of this issue.
        3. 0
          6 December 2023 08: 15
          The eagle was designed in several versions, incl. non-nuclear with a displacement not much more than 1143.5 even “on paper”.
          1. +2
            6 December 2023 09: 19
            You are confusing the preliminary studies of various options for an aircraft-carrying ship with the project that was preferred by the fleet.
            1. +3
              6 December 2023 10: 58
              The Navy wanted the Enterprise. But after Grechko and Butoma, no one was interested in what he wanted there. The very fact is that we considered an aircraft carrier of 60 thousand tons possible and acceptable. + - with catapults. Not what we would like, but better than nothing at all, and maybe even better than 1143.5. Including specialists from the 1st Research Institute, they thought so.
              1. +2
                6 December 2023 12: 01
                Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                The very fact is that we considered an aircraft carrier of 60 thousand tons possible and acceptable. + - with catapults. Not what we would like, but better than nothing at all, and maybe even better than 1143.5.

                Well, yes. This is indeed true
              2. 0
                7 December 2023 10: 27
                Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                The very fact is that we considered an aircraft carrier of 60 thousand tons possible and acceptable. + - with catapults.

                Here, for example, is how the Navy initially saw the future 11435:
                As part of the technical proposal (the development of which was carried out under the direct supervision of the deputy chief designer of Project 1153 O.P. Efimov and was completed in April 1978), the bureau considered five options for the ship with a different composition of weapons and aviation technical devices, with two types of power plants (boiler-turbine and nuclear) and with a displacement in the range of 59-000 tons. Of these options, the NPKB recommended for further design the minimum displacement fifth option with a power plant of the Project 65 type and two catapults, one of which, by reducing the main dimensions, it was possible to place only by removing the Granit anti-ship missile system. The bureau proposed to consider the MiG-000K fighter and the Su-1143K attack aircraft to be the main types of ejection take-off aircraft for the TAKR Project 11435 (the dimensions of the Su-29K fighter required a reduction in their number by 25%). According to the technical proposal, the flight deck area of ​​the TAKR pr. 27 exceeded that of the TAKR pr. 35-11435 by 1143 times, and the hangar by 11434 times.
                © Morin A.B. Project 11435 heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov."
                1. 0
                  7 December 2023 15: 01
                  Well, Gorshkov allegedly said about the catapults on the “five” - if we don’t install them now, history will not forgive us for this later. It's like that. Along the way, there was an intrigue with the springboard on the UDC, with which the General Staff wanted to replace aircraft-carrying cruisers in general, apparently.
                  1. 0
                    8 December 2023 10: 47
                    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                    Along the way, there was an intrigue with the springboard on the UDC, with which the General Staff wanted to replace aircraft-carrying cruisers in general, apparently.

                    The intrigue was not even with the springboard on the UDC, but with the UDC themselves.
                    The General Staff, represented by Amelko, who joined the boots, within the framework of the Argus research project, proposed an anti-aircraft defense system with cheap mass-produced helicopter carriers based on the Kapitan Smirnov roll-off carrier. This first iteration of Project 10200 could be built in parallel with the TAVKR - at the Kherson Shipyard.
                    However, during the design process, after assigning amphibious missions to the helicopter carrier and at least partially fulfilling the Navy’s requirements for structural protection and survivability, Project 10200 swelled so much that it required “Slipway 0” for itself. Delighted by this, the General Staff, who fiercely hated AB, used this to stop the construction of the Project 1143 series:
                    By resolution of the USSR Council of Ministers of March 28, 1980, the ship construction plan for 1981-1990. the construction of two ships of Project 10200 was included on the slipway No. 0 of the Shipyard in Nikolaev instead of the lead ship of Project 1143.5 with the delivery of the lead ship in 1986.

                    Professionals from the bureaucracy not only pushed for the inclusion of ships in the resolution of the Council of Ministers, but also knocked out a positive decision on the technical project of Project 1 from the 10200st Institute of the Navy.
                    The whole raspberry of the General Staff was spoiled by Gorshkov, who returned from vacation, immediately convened a meeting and gave his subordinates a headache, after which the 1st Institute of the Navy immediately issued a new decision - completely contradicting the previous one. And Central Research Institute named after. A.N. Krylova issued a conclusion that Project 10200 would fully comply with the Navy’s requirements for ships of this class only if it was built in the hull of Project 1143 - which immediately put an end to cheapness and mass production. As a result, Gorshkov managed to get the resolution of the Council of Ministers cancelled.
                    1. 0
                      14 February 2024 09: 19
                      And this is another story. It seems that Amelko “pushed” her. At the UDC, Gorshkov ordered to “stick” an AK-130 instead of a springboard to support the landing ;)
    3. 0
      9 December 2023 00: 13
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      There really are problems there - the formation of ice due to steaming. But it's on deck.

      Which entails a decrease in the stability of the ship, which is very dangerous.
  17. +2
    5 December 2023 10: 10
    “And no one in the United States would think of taking the risk of adapting the F-14 fighter, which was chic for its time, for the needs of the Air Force (yes, it’s a little expensive, however) or the F/A-18.”
    Iranian F-14s and Hornites in Spain, Finland and other Australia look at you with surprise Author.
    “The overall result is a situation where the Sukhoi concern wins a complete and unconditional victory in the Aerospace Forces.
    Yeah, when the main one in the united concern was always from Sukhoi, then, yes, indeed, there is absolutely nothing unusual that the MiG is now practically dead.
  18. 0
    5 December 2023 10: 18
    Well, actually, there were more adaptations of land aircraft to the deck of an aircraft carrier than the author lists. And not all of them were bad. Among the relatively recent examples is F - 35, which was originally land-based. Regarding the "Prince of Wales", they were planning to remake it into anything))) about 70 projects were developed, from nuclear with catapults, to a very small one with verticals. However, we chose one of the most unsuccessful)))
    1. +6
      5 December 2023 10: 27
      Quote: TermNachTER
      From relatively recent examples of the F - 35, which was originally land-based

      It was not originally land, it was originally created as sea and land at the same time. That is, Roman was mistaken here in that a carrier-based aircraft must be specialized and have nothing in common with a land aircraft
      1. -3
        5 December 2023 15: 59
        It was originally created as a cheaper and, accordingly, mass-produced version of the F-22. And then, Lockheed brought a very “fat cutlet” to someone in Washington, and they began to sculpt everything from it at once, including an attack aircraft for the Marine Corps)) )
        1. +6
          5 December 2023 16: 08
          Quote: TermNachTER
          It was originally created as a cheaper and, accordingly, mass-produced version of the F-22. And then

          Nikolai... If I write something, it’s for a reason.
          Penguin originated from the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. And JSF emerged as a result of two programs - Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter (CALF) and Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST).
          So, CALF was a program to develop a VTOL aircraft for the Marine Corps, which (damn!) was also supposed to replace the F-16. And provide a low-cost fighter platform not only for the US Air Force and Marine Corps, but also for its allies.
          JAST is a replacement program for F/A-18 :))))
          therefore
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          it was originally created as sea and land at the same time
          1. -2
            5 December 2023 20: 03
            Who can argue? In hindsight, you can base anything. The only thing that remains unchanged is the desire of Lockheed, Boeing, etc. - to rake in the loot with a shovel)))
            1. +3
              5 December 2023 21: 11
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Who can argue? In hindsight, you can base anything.

              In the sense - backwards? :)))) I, excuse me, read about the JSF program back at the stage when only prototypes were attached to it
              1. -1
                5 December 2023 22: 43
                All these programs are being developed in the USA in large quantities. Most end up in the trash bin. Some reach realization in a completely unrecognizable form. Therefore, it is pointless to argue about these programs.
                1. +2
                  6 December 2023 08: 15
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Therefore, it is pointless to argue about these programs.

                  Nikolay, there is no point in arguing about these programs for one simple reason - they are strictly public in the USA. It is clear that military secrets are not in the public domain, but “The taxpayer has the right to know” and that’s all. Therefore, any such program is published and “shown” in the press, and tracking its “unrecognizable” changes is generally not difficult.
                  It goes without saying that American corporations love to make money, but they do it by inflating R&D and production costs.
                  1. -1
                    6 December 2023 09: 56
                    Are there many people in the USA who can understand and appreciate the seriousness of these programs? The vast majority of Americans don’t give a damn about what is outside their town, well, the county at most. Outside the state it's a completely different planet. Therefore, you can print anything.
                    1. +1
                      6 December 2023 10: 37
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Therefore, you can print anything.

                      Nikolay, you are now projecting your personal fantasies onto the USA. Take the reports... or at least the same GAO, read them, they are published on a regular basis, so you can’t change them “retroactively”. The American auditors are not satisfied - take an open seal. When you find contradictions there, then tell us about them.
                      And there are more than enough military history buffs who follow modern weapons in the United States. Certainly no less than ours.
                      1. 0
                        6 December 2023 15: 35
                        I regularly read specialized American sites. That’s why I say that they write whatever they want there. From what is written, only a few make it to implementation, and in a form that does not even resemble the original one even from a distance.
                      2. 0
                        7 December 2023 08: 40
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        That’s why I say that they write whatever they want there.

                        What sites are we talking about? And why do you read them if they write “anything”? Maybe you will somehow move on to the official Pentagon reports?
                      3. 0
                        7 December 2023 10: 35
                        Are official Pentagon reports a serious source of information? Recent audits show shortfalls of several billion dollars and no clear explanation: "Where did the American taxpayers' money go?)))
                      4. 0
                        7 December 2023 10: 57
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Are official Pentagon reports a serious source of information?

                        Well, that is, you cannot name your sources of information, and the officialdom of the Pentagon is not your source.
                        Nikolay, you don’t have any information. That's all. You are presenting what you want as reality.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Latest audits show billions of dollars in shortfalls

                        What happens all the time - see the history of the conscription of 300 thousand at the beginning of the Northern Military District. And which has nothing to do with the issue under discussion
                      5. 0
                        7 December 2023 13: 32
                        Well, you are the one who suggests taking official sources of information seriously. I have three friends who live in the USA. They say they don't listen at all to what they say in Washington. Because he lives his own life, incomprehensible and unnecessary to the absolute majority of normal people in the USA.
                      6. 0
                        7 December 2023 14: 25
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have three friends who live in the USA. They say they don't listen at all to what they say in Washington.

                        Well, who cares about their opinion in this case? Are they experts on the Pentagon because they don't even listen to what he has to say?
                        Nikolai, once again. Where did you get the information that JSF was ruled retroactively?
                      7. 0
                        7 December 2023 18: 58
                        Yes, because there were a lot of these programs. And the one for which the Congress received the most attention passed. Do you want to say that the F-35 is a very successful airplane? Which would have had some prospects if Washington (Lockheed) had not forced Norway, England, Holland and other suckers there.
                      8. 0
                        7 December 2023 19: 06
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Do you want to say that the F-35 is a very successful airplane?

                        I want to say that you are again trying to blurt out a question that has become inconvenient for you.
                      9. 0
                        8 December 2023 02: 04
                        What do I want to chat? That there have always been many mattress aircraft programs and they chose from them, not what is good for the United States, but what is good for the shareholders of the military-industrial complex and their representatives in power. That "Penguin" is another, costly failure.
                      10. 0
                        8 December 2023 02: 19
                        The F-35 was a product of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, which was an amalgamation of various combat aircraft programs from the 1980s and 1990s. One progenitor program was the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), which operated the Advanced Short Take-Off/Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) program, which ran from 1983 to 1994; ASTOVL developed the Lun jump replacement engine by the US Marine Corps (USMC) and the British Royal Navy. As part of one of ASTOVL's classified programs, the STOVL Supersonic Fighter (SSF), Lockheed Skunk Works conducted research to develop a stealth supersonic fighter, the STOVL, for both the United States Air Force (USAF) and the US Marine Corps; The key technology explored was the shaft driven lift fan (SDLF) system. Lockheed's concept was a single-engine canard delta aircraft weighing approximately 24 lb (000 kg) empty. ASTOVL was renamed the Conventional Affordable Light Fighter (CALF) in 11, with participation from Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas and Boeing.
                      11. 0
                        8 December 2023 02: 20
                        Taken from their website, so the translator is a bit clumsy.
                      12. 0
                        8 December 2023 08: 15
                        That is, what I said above is completely confirmed
                        Penguin originated from the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. And JSF emerged as a result of two programs - Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter (CALF) and Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST).
                        So, CALF was a program to develop a VTOL aircraft for the Marine Corps, which (damn!) was also supposed to replace the F-16. And provide a low-cost fighter platform not only for the US Air Force and Marine Corps, but also for its allies.
                        JAST is the F/A-18 replacement program

                        And where is the intrigue? Where is the hindsight you are writing to me about?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In hindsight you can base anything
                      13. 0
                        8 December 2023 10: 32
                        The intrigue is that, as I said, “penguin” is the result of several programs collected in a “heap”. And modification “C” is basically a new aircraft, in which only the engine and electronics remain from “A” and “B”.
      2. +1
        5 December 2023 20: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That is, Roman was mistaken here in that the carrier-based aircraft must be specialized and have nothing in common with the land

        Andrew, hi
        With all due respect: Roman is right The point is that the deck deck is specialized for the more severe operating conditions of the aircraft. It has reinforced landing gear, internal airframe kit, shock absorbers, etc. The material is more corrosion resistant than its land counterpart. The wing area is larger...
        But Roman is wrong is that the deck has nothing in common with its land counterpart. It usually develops from the land variant. With modifications, improvements and other bells and whistles to meet the requirements for a deck...
        Therefore, there is a twofold situation here. Roman's statement, on the one hand, is correct, but on the other hand, it does not correspond to reality.
        AHA.
        1. 0
          5 December 2023 21: 10
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          With all due respect: Roman is right that the deck deck is specialized for the more stringent operating conditions of the aircraft.

          I didn't deny it. The phrase you quote does not deny this fact. But I don’t agree with the fact that a good deck ship must be specialized, created from scratch.
  19. +2
    5 December 2023 10: 42
    The MiG enterprise needs to be saved, no jokes or irony. Artificially bringing them to the level of Sukhoi will not work (too expensive), but we need to restore the main enterprise so that they can be guaranteed to modernize, develop and build new aircraft.
    This is, after all, the only bureau with extensive experience in creating light combat fighters. The Yakovlevites are more focused on training aircraft; they don’t have much experience in designing combat fighters.
    And now, having restored production, give the task of producing the MiG-35 in large quantities for the Aerospace Forces. After all, expensive and heavy dryers, due to their high price, cannot be produced in large quantities. But it is necessary to increase the number of aircraft. Yes, by the time of production it will no longer be a time-appropriate light fighter. But this will be a new, lightweight, multi-purpose and most importantly MASSIVE fighter for the army. While the series is being built, part of the development team can start designing a new modernization package. And the other part will take on the task of designing a completely new light fighter. Someone, the so-called MiG-50. Which will be located in the F-16 niche:
    Multifunctional (but mainly an interceptor), light and mass-produced fighter, technologically advanced enough to carry out combat missions, but simple enough to be cheaper than heavy fighters (like our Su-57).
    It would be very good if MiG created a specialized carrier-based fighter (and not a carrier-based modification of the VKS aircraft). But given the fact that in the future we will have only one aircraft carrier (either only the Kuznetsov will still serve, or the Storm aircraft carrier will be built, but then the Kuznetsov will be written off). If we had 2-3 aircraft carriers, we would still think about specialized development, but we only have one, which is under permanent repair most of the time.
    1. +7
      5 December 2023 11: 22
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      This is, after all, the only bureau with extensive experience in creating light combat fighters.

      Yes, there is no bureau anymore. One and a half constructors
      1. osp
        +5
        5 December 2023 18: 06
        Several years ago, at one forum, I was able to communicate with a former Sukhoi Design Bureau engineer who participated in testing Su-90 prototypes in the early 33s and at the same time became familiar with the MiG-29K.
        He expressed very unflattering reviews about the last plane.
        There was a lot of load on the glider during landing, the whole ship shook.
        The pilot made several passes over the deck to land.

        Even the heavy Su-33s landed more smoothly; the airframe did not receive damage or stretch marks in the area of ​​the landing hook. Usually from the first run.

        The MiG-29 is poorly suited for carrier-based operations.
        The Chinese abandoned such an aircraft in favor of Su-33 clones.
        1. +2
          6 December 2023 08: 22
          Quote from osp
          Large load on the airframe during landing

          Who can argue? Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to communicate with the designer, but it is reliably known that the pilots complained about this. And more or less serious monographs usually note this fact
          1. 0
            6 December 2023 08: 55
            On the Su-33 it was necessary to “fence” the PGO; in terms of aerodynamics, this is no longer “quite” the original Su-27. The MiG-29K is not going to be removed from service with the Russian Navy, although perhaps the UAC simply did not want to renew the Su-33. Well, as for 1143.4, I wouldn’t be surprised if any modern fighter “falls apart” when landing on it.
            1. +2
              6 December 2023 09: 12
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              On the Su-33 it was necessary to “fence” the PGO, in terms of aerodynamics it is no longer “quite” the original Su-27

              Well, so what?
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              The MiG-29K is not going to be removed from service with the Russian Navy, although perhaps the UAC simply did not want to renew the Su-33

              Not “doesn’t want”, but “can’t” - this is unrealistic now, and what’s the point of producing an aircraft of the level of the Su-27?
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              Well, as for 1143.4, I wouldn’t be surprised if any modern fighter “falls apart” when landing on it.

              Su-33 lands normally.
              1. 0
                6 December 2023 09: 38

                Not “doesn’t want”, but “can’t” - this is unrealistic now, and what’s the point of producing an aircraft of the level of the Su-27?

                Since there is nothing else. The Americans are now purchasing F-15s.


                Su-33 lands normally.

                Not on Baku-Gorshkov, as they call it there now. They didn't even look at him there.
                1. +2
                  6 December 2023 10: 45
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  Since there is nothing else. The Americans are now purchasing F-15s.

                  They don't buy. They are purchasing the F-15EX, which is much different even from the F-15E, on the basis of which it was created. And the F-15E is, well, never an F-15C/D, because the first one is a slightly different aircraft altogether, primarily a bomber, while the Tseshka is a pure conqueror of air superiority.
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  Not on Baku-Gorshkova

                  Yes, my apologies, I missed that you were writing about 1143.4.
                  1. 0
                    6 December 2023 10: 53

                    They don't buy. They are purchasing the F-15EX, which is much different even from the F-15E, on the basis of which it was created. And the F-15E is, well, never an F-15C/D, because the first one is a slightly different aircraft altogether, primarily a bomber, while the Tseshka is a pure conqueror of air superiority.

                    Yeah. There are just rumors that the Americans will have one pilot in the F-15EX. In the end, E’s “legs” also “stick out” from D. And new electronic guts can be shoved into an old plane, if you have the money.

                    These Hindu names don’t stick in my head at all.
                    1. +2
                      6 December 2023 12: 04
                      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                      And you can put new electronic giblets into an old plane, if you have the money.

                      It’s possible, but to do this, the Su-35 designers had to completely redesign the airframe. Visually it is similar to the Su-27, but in essence it is a completely different aircraft. It's the same story with the Su-33.
                      No one argues that it is possible to build some kind of deck ship based on the Su family. But... it won’t be a Su-33, it will be a completely different aircraft
                      1. osp
                        0
                        6 December 2023 14: 33
                        The Su-33 is rather a deck parody not of the Su-27, but of the first Su-35, which was then developed by designer Simonov. Index T-10M. They also have PGOs and are very similar.
                      2. +2
                        6 December 2023 14: 41
                        Quote from osp
                        The Su-33 is rather a deck parody not of the Su-27, but of the first Su-35, which was then developed by designer Simonov.

                        Absolutely not - they were converted from the Su-27 of the first series. This is a reliable fact. Su-35 is a completely different aircraft
                        Quote from osp
                        Index T-10M.

                        This is a completely different Su-35, which has nothing to do with the Su-35 of today. Except number 35
                      3. osp
                        0
                        6 December 2023 18: 23
                        Look what these first Su-35s look like, they are also Su-27M, they are also T-10M. And their production was carried out simultaneously with the Su-33.
                        They are also with PGO.
                        These were the first experimental T-10Ms that were converted from early Su-27s.
                        And there has never been a single converted Su-27 into a Su-33, not even into its prototypes.
                        Everything was laid from scratch from T-10K-1 to T-10K-9.
                        The latter became the standard for serial production.
                      4. 0
                        6 December 2023 18: 33
                        Quote from osp
                        Look what these first Su-35s look like, they are also Su-27M, they are also T-10M. And their production was carried out simultaneously with the Su-33.
                        They are also with PGO.

                        And Su-30 with PGO. But the Su-35S strangely does not have it. So what's all this for?
                      5. osp
                        0
                        6 December 2023 18: 40
                        The Su-35S has completely different engines.
                        And the Su-33 (the thrust was slightly increased to 12800 kgf in the “Emergency afterburner” mode), the simple Su-35 and the Su-27 have the same engines. Without SUVT.
                2. +2
                  6 December 2023 10: 52
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  Since there is nothing else. The Americans are now purchasing F-15s.

                  The problem is that the Su-33 is adapted for deck parent Su-27. Which correlates with today's production vehicles like the T-34 mod. 1940 with T-34-85UKN. smile
                  “Resumption of production of the Su-33” is a radical reworking of all the hardware and avionics of the old vehicle. And it’s still unknown what’s easier - modifying the Su-33 to meet new requirements or making a deck version of the Su-35.
                  1. +1
                    6 December 2023 11: 22
                    Listen, they rivet Su-30s (also a triplane), which are also not Su-35s. And the Su-27 is being modernized. And nothing. Everything is easier to explain. More likely. The equipment was simply disposed of. And, most importantly. The Su-33 was useless to the Indians at that time. And our army and navy mainly receive what foreign customers buy. And they talked about it in plain text.
                    1. osp
                      0
                      6 December 2023 14: 44
                      The Su-30M2, which was made in Komsomolsk, was not a bad simple fighter. If only it could replace the radar, it could be in production for another ten years. Both for ourselves and for export.
                      But in 2016, production was curtailed.
                      But China has made a clone of this aircraft based on the Su-30MKK sold there and will probably offer it for export.
                      WITH AFAR. And according to the same scheme, the Su-30MKK previously purchased from Russia is being modernized.
                      1. 0
                        6 December 2023 14: 53
                        Yes, but the Su-33 doesn’t have the same capabilities as the Su-30. Although, maybe it would fit. No such task was set.
                      2. osp
                        0
                        6 December 2023 18: 25
                        "Brahmos" or "Onyx" Su-33 will lift at the central point between the air intakes.
                        But things didn’t go beyond the layout.
                  2. osp
                    0
                    6 December 2023 14: 35
                    This is wrong. When the Su-33 was being developed and went into production, at the same time the first Su-35 with PGO was being made for the Air Force. Aka T-10M. The cars are very similar visually and the layout is also similar.
                    1. +2
                      6 December 2023 14: 45
                      You are now confusing the Su-35, which never flew, with the Su-35S, which is now flying - these are two completely different machines. Usually people, when talking about the Su-35, talk specifically about the Su-35S. And that Su-35 you are talking about died unborn
                      1. osp
                        0
                        6 December 2023 18: 43
                        Here is a simple Su-35 from the mid-90s, which is what I was talking about.
                        They are structurally similar to the Su-33 because they were made at the same time.
                      2. 0
                        7 December 2023 08: 38
                        Quote from osp
                        Here is a simple Su-35 from the mid-90s which is what I was talking about

                        And I tell you once again - that Su-35 is NOT a modern aircraft. Your opponent says everything correctly - no amount of dancing with a tambourine will bring the Su-33 to the level of the Su-35S, or at least close to it. And you object that in the 90s there was a Su-35. So that Su-35 is as outdated as the Su-33 today
      2. +3
        6 December 2023 08: 26
        It doesn't matter anymore. Still UAC. In principle, we now have enough designers for one fighter design bureau.
  20. +4
    5 December 2023 12: 41
    F/A-18? Here you can be completely calm: it won’t take off. The Rafale (24 kg at takeoff) maybe, if you’re lucky, the Griffin (500 kg) for sure, but the Super Hornet with its 14 kg may not even be a dream. Damn physics again. But it won’t take off from the springboard, and if it does take off, it won’t be for very long. The MiG-000K with its estimated weight of 29 kg, the Rafale - yes, but the American is only in danger of bumps.

    The author writes productively, a lot, sometimes the articles are good, but this one is clearly not his. Again, he doesn’t always read VO. :). The F/A-18 will take off from the springboard, and how.
    American carrier-based fighters F/A-18 Super Hornet, participating in the Indian tender for the supply of aircraft for the air wing of the newest aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, demonstrated the ability take off from deck with increased load. As stated by Boeing, American fighters showed results, even exceeding requirements Indian military.
    ... the tests took place from late May to June at the Indian Navy's test site at Hansa Air Base in Goa, which simulates the deck of the Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. ... the fighters took off with two AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles, which exceeds Indian Navy requirements to new carrier-based fighters.

    https://topwar.ru/199156-istrebiteli-f-a-18-super-hornet-prodemonstrirovali-vms-indii-sposobnost-vzletat-s-paluby-avianosca-s-povyshennoj-nagruzkoj.html
    In principle, such comments apply to every second paragraph in the article. The author did not ignore the mossy myth that supposedly aircraft carriers with catapults cannot be operated at low temperatures, and many others. :)
    1. 0
      5 December 2023 22: 04
      He would have taken off. The question is, with what weight? The same goes for Rafal. And how will they board this pocket aircraft carrier? It seems to me that for them, after all, the Yak-141 had to be finished off, and not shoved in something that couldn’t be shoved in, only because they didn’t want to tinker with the plane.
    2. 0
      6 December 2023 10: 54
      Quote from solar
      The F/A-18 will take off from the springboard, and how.

      I'll tell you more - even the F-14 took off from a springboard. In the late 70s, the Yankees tested the possibility of springboard take-off of deck vehicles on it.
      1. 0
        6 December 2023 12: 11
        Yoshkin’s cat, and actually the Su-25 took off from it.
        1. osp
          0
          6 December 2023 14: 45
          The Su-25UTG also took off from the ship.
          But this is a purely training aircraft, without weapons at all.
          1. 0
            6 December 2023 14: 56
            I understand. But even when naked, its thrust-to-weight ratio is not 1 by far.
            1. osp
              0
              7 December 2023 00: 22
              Well, he’s relatively naked - the armored capsule remains on the cabin.
              It is part of the aircraft structure.
              But the lack of a folding wing is a shame...
  21. -1
    5 December 2023 13: 20
    In general, everything is written correctly. We have a lack of experience, the Indians have time and choice.
    But the ship's Mig turned out to be unsuccessful. Just like the concept of a bastard ski-jump aircraft carrier. Yes, and about the freezing of catapults: where can I get steam? The Americans switched to nuclear energy so that there would be enough steam for catapults during flights. And their old steam aircraft carriers were much larger and more powerful in terms of energy.
    1. +1
      5 December 2023 21: 59

      And their old steam aircraft carriers were much larger and more powerful in terms of energy.

      Especially Midway was much larger than 1143.5 (even if you look at its “passport”, in length it will be more than QE). I'm already silent about the French.
      The MiG-29K turned out to be “unsuccessful” for only one reason. Rostec did not want (and does not want) to deal with this machine (MiG-29/-35) in any variants. Otherwise, there would be a different attitude towards the serial factories occupied by this machine.
      1. +1
        6 December 2023 04: 27
        If only they remembered Oriskany. When did they start building Midway? The war is not over yet. With the Japanese. Everyone flew on propellers. The deck was enough to just fly around. And then, the Americans were smart enough to understand that they needed a large aircraft carrier. The bigger, the better.
        1. +1
          6 December 2023 08: 01
          Why not remember Midway, if from it Phantoms and other pilots were by no means advanced in comparison with the MiG-29 in terms of airborne flight characteristics?
      2. +1
        6 December 2023 04: 31
        And remembering the Anglo-French... There are airplanes even smaller than Mig. Together with ours, these are all sub-aircraft carriers. It will go against Argentina. The rest is money down the drain. Like a small dog running ahead of a big one and clicking its fangs.
        1. 0
          6 December 2023 08: 03
          These airplanes are smaller, first of all, not that small. Secondly, they were not lying close to the 1th either in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio or controllability at high angles of attack at low speeds (I would venture to suggest that this matters during takeoff and landing).
          1. +1
            6 December 2023 08: 44
            No need to be so nervous. You're right.
            1. 0
              6 December 2023 08: 46
              Come on, I'm as calm as a boa constrictor.
      3. 0
        6 December 2023 04: 33
        And “Midway” ended when there were no more planes for it.
        1. +1
          6 December 2023 07: 44
          Well, well, we're out of F/A-18s wassat
        2. +2
          6 December 2023 10: 57
          Quote: mmaxx
          And “Midway” ended when there were no more planes for it.

          It was you who confused him with the Essexes.
          "Midway" was initially built with such a margin for growth (for the F7F piston twin-engine engines) that everything except the F-14 fit on it. He even managed to fly around with the F/A-18. But for the Essexes, the F-4s turned out to be too big - and they went into anti-submarine warfare and then “on pins and needles.”
    2. +1
      6 December 2023 03: 41
      Yes, ushhh. Spit in people's eyes - God's dew. Okay, there's some speculation there. But even the operation showed that this Mig is everything. What can't be taken away from it, only a lower price and very good performance. A ground staff dream. Which is also a lot sometimes.
  22. 0
    5 December 2023 13: 44
    It's a pity, of course, about this MiG.
    Our government and aviation bosses don't value what they have.
  23. -1
    5 December 2023 14: 31
    We need to sell MIGs to Ukraine. BUY.
  24. +4
    5 December 2023 16: 31
    Taking off from the deck of an aircraft carrier - okay, more back and forth

    Taking off from the deck is even worse than landing.
    If the takeoff is catapult, then you need to accelerate it to takeoff speed along the length of the catapult track. Yes, the engines will take on part of the effort - but the rest of the force will fall on the front strut, by which the catapult shoe pulls the plane.
    If the takeoff is a springboard, then there will be overloads again. But already vertical (according to American data from the 70s of the last century - up to 6-7g). In this case, the pilot, despite the overload, needs to manually keep the plane on the line during takeoff.
  25. +6
    5 December 2023 16: 54
    And steam in the conditions of the White, Bering or Okhotsk Sea will very quickly become ice. It's simple - physics. And no steam catapult will function in such conditions.

    If the facts contradict the theory - the worse for the facts. smile
    The Americans worked in both the Bering and Barents Seas. Late autumn and winter.

    So the great Admiral Gorshkov had no fools at his headquarters when they relied on cruisers with vertical take-off and landing aircraft and ski-jumps.

    It was an answer in the style of Bader - very weighty and half a meter past. ©
    It was the Navy that over and over again demanded a catapult for the AB and TAVKR. And in Project 1153, and in Project 1160, and in Project 11435.
    And the decision to exclude the catapult from Project 11435 and to stop all work on catapults was made by Ustinov and Amelko, who joined the boots - despite all the objections of the Navy and industry.
    1. 0
      6 December 2023 07: 59
      Plus, the general designer of Sukhoi categorically did not want to convert the Su-27K for ejection takeoff. Flatly. The Mikonyanites were not so categorical.
  26. +1
    5 December 2023 17: 35
    If you give these singers and dancers anything, they will break everything. Over the course of 10 years, the nuclear submarine has been rolled to the point of complete inability to stand, now only on pins and needles.
  27. +4
    5 December 2023 17: 58
    Quote: U-58
    The MiG company had something to think about if it had not been methodically killed. And who is the killer? And the Su corporation. Which comes out of many years of being on the sidelines during the Soviet era. And people from Su settled in the leadership of the KLA. KB Yak was killed, the company Il was relegated to the ground floor. The Tupolevs are not involved in civil aviation, but why should they be allowed to do so? Yes, they don’t do anything new at all. Not allowed.
    MiGs began to be killed after model 1.44, a direct competitor to the Su-57.
    A very promising device was allowed to make ONE flight. And then he was condemned as unfinished, unpromising, etc. And finally, Su aircraft are our everything.
    So what kind of work by Mikoyan and Gurevich (may they rest in peace) can we talk about?


    They often say that the Sukhovites killed the MiG, etc., etc.
    I think that this is not entirely true.
    The main killer is the “invisible hand” of the global arms market; when the Su-27 family was allowed to be sold abroad, many countries bought it, but few people needed the Mig-29.
    Plus a certain “dizziness from the success” of the MiG Design Bureau. Here is a small touch to the portrait of the Mig design bureau: Yuri Ivanovich Makarov, director of the Black Sea Shipyard, in his book “Aircraft Carrier” describes a typical situation: “The Sukhoi Design Bureau and the MiG Design Bureau made different heels for the brake hook, each company of its own design, for hooking onto the arresting arrester cable And the Mig-29 constantly broke the cable, the shipbuilders examined the hooks and saw that they were different and suggested that the Mikoyanites improve or change their design, to which the Mikoyanites threw a complete tantrum."
    Not only and not so much the Sukhovites killed Mig, but their technical inertia and arrogance made a significant contribution to the extinction of the glorious design bureau.
    Another factor I came across online: KB Mig had many production areas and facilities in Moscow, and this was a bone in the throat for developers and the authorities demolished them and built them up. The Sukhoi Design Bureau was located more in the periphery.....
    1. +2
      5 December 2023 22: 07
      It's just that there are serious competitors in the MiG's "weight category", but Americans sell the F-15 not only for money - for a very high-quality blow job. The Su-30 was easier to sell. Then few people know, but first the Indians bought a license for the MiG-29. And then, as in that joke - we assembled an airplane according to your drawings, but what we got was a tractor!
    2. 0
      6 December 2023 03: 44
      And if you count how many things have been killed in the USA..... How many are there? There are two or so aircraft offices left. The market decided. Eh, what names there were!
      1. +1
        6 December 2023 11: 17
        Quote: mmaxx
        And if you count how many things have been killed in the USA..... How many are there? There are two or so aircraft offices left.

        There seem to be three global ones. Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and of course Boeing. For the first two, even by their names it is clear who united in them. Oh yes, and General Dynamics.
        And the rest... the same Sikorsky is now part of Lockheed Martin. McDonnell-Douglas merged with Boeing. Bell became part of Textron. Curtiss-Wright ceased production of aircraft.
    3. 0
      6 December 2023 03: 59
      Yes. OKB officers have snobbery. I'm an artist, that's how I see it. And get rid of all the cross-armed bastards. It’s not for you, godlike ones, to teach us how to design airplanes.
  28. +4
    5 December 2023 19: 51
    How nice it is to know that the British aircraft carrier is a barn, the Indians are crooked, and they either give or take bribes. But it is not exactly. At the same time, the number of trained deck pilots in India is many times higher than ours. Roman may not know that the Indian satellite not only flew to the Moon, but completed the program and returned.
    1. +1
      6 December 2023 03: 46
      Hindus, unlike forum agitators, fly. Also from aircraft carriers. That’s why they have a well-founded opinion on Migam. Takeoff-landing-repair. Such a thing as a radar is fiddled around, faulty, back and forth. And so on.
      They are, of course, gypsies. But they definitely know how to fly.
      1. 0
        6 December 2023 08: 08
        From them, not only from MiG-29s, engines often came back for repairs in complete rubbish. Without part of the blades. I wouldn’t be very surprised that when landing on 1143.4 everything is quite extreme for a “normal” plane. And that MiGs and engines for them were not made with the same quality as in Soviet times already in the 0s. But this is primarily a problem for UAC, UEC, and in short, Rostec.
  29. 0
    5 December 2023 21: 38
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    The marine version in the project was distinguished by a large amount of fuel in the tanks (4 kg instead of 000 kg)

    In reality, another half a ton more.

    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    possibility of using suspended 800-liter tanks

    There are none, the smallest one is 1150.

    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    Moreover, the maximum take-off weight with four missiles and three anti-tank tanks was even greater than that of the land-based MiG-29 - 18 kg.

    The regular 9-12 has a maximum take-off weight of 18840 kg. For reference, the first MiG-29K (product 9-31) had a take-off weight from a short launch position of 17700 kg, and from a long launch position of 22400 kg.
  30. +2
    5 December 2023 21: 50
    Vo-1, Su-27K and MiG-29K landed on the decks of Tbilisi on the same day for the first time.
    Secondly, Project 2 should have received the catapult. And for a very simple reason - it also had to have AWACS and PLO aircraft.
    Thirdly, given that the MiG was kicked out of Moscow, and Chernyshev has been kicked out of Tushino since 3, technical problems with the MiG-2013K are quite likely.
    Vo4, the EPR of the MiG-29K/M/-35 is in any way less than that of the Su-30/-35, and hardly more than that of the Rafal with PGO.
    B-5, for the MiG-35 AFAR is at least declared. Apart from it, so far only the Su-57 has an AFAR, the number of which in the Aerospace Forces will in any case be limited.
    Q-6, does the author have a good idea of ​​what it costs now to make a new gas turbine for a fighter? And how many different “unicycles” will there be in it? And how long does it now take a 5-axis machine to make such a unicycle? And how many machining centers do our enterprises have that can cope with such work?
    V-7, the “past” commander-in-chief of the Aerospace Forces just wanted 200 or even more MiG-35s. Well, it’s somehow strange to immediately give a lieutenant from a school a Su-35 and even more so a Su-57.
    V-8, just recently the general designer of the UAC stated that the MiG35 performed well during the SVO, and the issue of its serial production will be resolved after the final completion of the tests.
    All the problems of the MiG are explained very simply. Decisions are made by people who don’t give a damn what will happen there, MiG, Su, Yak or Boeing. In fact, they are only interested in money. And everything else is a good face against a bad game.
    PS Actually, the F-35B’s wings don’t fold either. The Americans live on UDC, they don’t care. Everyone else - no.
  31. osp
    0
    6 December 2023 00: 30
    A fighter such as the Su-33, of course, in terms of low visibility, is far from the F-35, but if its production in Komsomolsk-on-Amur had not been curtailed 20 years ago, but continued to produce at least several units a year, in parallel with By this I improve the avionics to the level of the Su-27SM and later to the level of the Su-35S, then today there would be a very advanced carrier-based fighter.
    Approximately on the same level as the Super Hornet, and the flight characteristics of the Su-33 are better than it.
    1. +1
      6 December 2023 03: 55
      If the Ministry of Defense does not pay money and does not even say when and how many aircraft will be needed, no one will occupy the space with equipment for this aircraft. And there are also subcontractors. It was the vague policy of the Ministry of Defense that ruined the production of this aircraft. The plant would be happy to make at least one aircraft a year.
      1. osp
        +2
        6 December 2023 04: 02
        And there remained several new Su-33 aircraft that the military had not purchased back in 2000-2001.
        One of them later became a monument at the plant, and the rest were in the form of reserves at high readiness.
        The cooperation for the production of this fighter has been destroyed.
        Some related industries (like Elektropribor in Voronezh) were destroyed.
        The other part is outside Russia.
        But those components that were in stock could be enough to produce approximately 4-5 cars.
        1. +1
          6 December 2023 04: 13
          What can I say? Never mind. Everyone likes to blame factories. They didn’t do it... they didn’t produce it... But these planes were partially paid for by someone. And it was MO that were ordered. They weren’t made in advance. But they didn’t buy them back. Who? MO.
    2. +1
      6 December 2023 08: 18
      Quote from osp
      but they continued to produce at least a few pieces a year, in parallel with this I am improving the avionics to the level of the Su-27SM and later to the level of the Su-35S

      Well, it's still impossible. The Su-33 is basically the Su-27 of the first series, and even heavier with deck-naval specifics, that is, the modernization reserve is reduced in relation to the base model. But there is no way to make a Su-27 out of a Su-35; the Su-35 is practically a new aircraft.
      1. osp
        0
        6 December 2023 14: 28
        All things are possible.
        The control system blocks are simply changed to work against ground and surface targets, and a fiber optic is added to the N001 radar for this.
        And the characteristics/range of weapons used is expanding.

        From the basic Su-27, the Su-33 is very different and is based more on the Su-27 of the later series, since they were produced until 2001.

        And if you were to change the radar on the Su-33, then the characteristics there could be significantly improved.
        It's like the MiG-21 became the MiG-21-93 with the Spear.
        Before Syria, only Hephaestus was installed on the Su-33.
        1. +1
          6 December 2023 14: 46
          Quote from osp
          All things are possible.

          Sorry, but you can't argue with physics
          Quote from osp
          It's like the MiG-21 became the MiG-21-93 with the Spear.

          What didn't make it a MiG-29. And that is exactly what you are proposing.
          1. osp
            0
            6 December 2023 18: 04
            Against what physics?!
            The electronic components on the aircraft simply change and it acquires new capabilities for carrying anti-ship missiles and guided weapons on the ground.
            The radar is receiving an upgrade to accommodate R-77 missiles.
            1. 0
              6 December 2023 18: 31
              Quote from osp
              Against what physics?!

              Physical :)))
              Quote from osp
              Simply change the electronic units on the plane and it acquires new capabilities

              Yeah, schazzz. And for some reason the whole world is inventing new radars and avionics. Why, if you can plug an electronic unit into the MiG-23 radar - and there will be an AFAR from the Su-57
  32. +2
    6 December 2023 01: 35
    The Indians took and take kickbacks well - this is no secret to anyone. Especially for those in the UAC who willingly give them. But if a client, having 45 units in stock, is not satisfied with their characteristics, then only a madman would hope that they will also order Mig35K. Which, in fact, do not exist and it is useless to talk about them
    Bureau Mig practically rotted Poghosyan in the 90s and 00s. There are no new developments. And the Indians definitely don’t need a modernized 45-year-old aircraft, and at a big cost. Even with kickbacks
    1. 0
      6 December 2023 08: 23
      Therefore, the Super Hornet, a modernization of the Hornet, which took off around the same time as the MiG-29, took part in the competition for a carrier-based fighter in India. That's not the point - we have to work. And first of all - in high offices. Or at least not disturb everyone else.
      1. 0
        10 December 2023 20: 20
        In such cases, we write that “almost completely developed from scratch,” as about the same Su-35. The Super Hornet differs too much from the base model to be called an upgrade. It is simply 25% more.
        1. 0
          14 February 2024 07: 41
          This, however, does not make it a fundamentally new aircraft compared to the “old” Hornet. That's why the F/A-18. Then the MiG-23ML is also a “different plane” - a different engine, a different radar, a “different” fuselage, unlike the Super Hornet, it was “shortened”. Well, in the 90s we began to create new digital indexes where in Soviet times they would have simply added a letter to the old one, these are questions for the USC.
  33. 0
    6 December 2023 01: 39
    Quote from osp
    A fighter such as the Su-33, of course, in terms of low visibility, is far from the F-35, but if its production in Komsomolsk-on-Amur had not been curtailed 20 years ago, but continued to produce at least several units a year, in parallel with By this I improve the avionics to the level of the Su-27SM and later to the level of the Su-35S, then today there would be a very advanced carrier-based fighter.
    Approximately on the same level as the Super Hornet, and the flight characteristics of the Su-33 are better than it.

    “If I had 5 rubles yesterday... But today I don’t even have 3...” M. Zhvanetsky
    1. osp
      +2
      6 December 2023 04: 06
      Almost all Su-33s assigned to the 279th Regiment underwent repairs at the manufacturer.
      Replacing engines, installing a GLONASS receiver, painting, installing new software.
      But the equipment did not even reach the level of the Su-27SM3.
      And now the Komsomolsk plant does not take them at all, even to repair these Su-33s!
      Repairs (not very quickly and not very efficiently) are carried out at 20 ARZ in Pushkin.
      1. 0
        6 December 2023 04: 19
        In order to bring the equipment to completion, you need to pay at least for the OKB to start working. Think about what to put on the plane. Write papers. Conclude an agreement. And then the plant will start making some noise. Only at the manufacturer's factory repairs are made for money and everything is done honorably. And at your aircraft repair plant, you can order a block to work with two more resources. Yes, at least three.
        1. osp
          0
          6 December 2023 18: 15
          Here you are right. Let’s say the SOS-2-8 units were removed at the ARZ. They do not provide the required parameters on the test bench during testing.
          And the manufacturing plant in Voronezh disappeared - it is gone and the documentation was burned.
          And what to do with the repair of these blocks?
          ARZ itself cannot repair them - there are no diagrams and no license.
          Therefore, they will simply leave it “as is” or find such blocks from the Mitinsky radio market.
          Military representatives are people too and they will miss this, because there is no alternative anyway.

          But the manufacturing plant is much more.
          There are all stands there, and repair documentation with diagrams for all units and systems.
          And of course - warehouse stocks of this goodness.
  34. 0
    6 December 2023 11: 19
    My deep couch opinion.
    The Mig 35 should become the single fighter of the Russian Navy.
    In the composition:
    1) 2 carrier-based aviation regiments (one main, one reserve) 36 +36 sides.
    2) Coast-based fighter regiments: Arkhangelsk, Murmansk, St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad, Saki, Astrakhan. Vladivostok, Petropavlosk-Kamchatsky, Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, Anadyr.
    3) 1 squadron in the pulp and paper plant in Yeisk, 1 squadron in Khmeimim, 1 squadron in Tiksi.
    Well, that's true. From a series of huge plans. Although my opinion is that this is necessary for the Russian Navy MA.
    Of course, we are talking about here and now. If we talk about the future, then this is, of course, a different plane.
  35. 0
    11 December 2023 08: 34
    I wonder how far into the future the prospect of the Su-57 extends? About 10 years ago this future was still somehow believed.
  36. -1
    11 December 2023 14: 03
    Russian MiG-29K would be quite useful for patrolling the Black Sea and fighting Ukrainian drones, sea and air...
    Why should they stand idle in the north in vain?
    The Su-30SM2 squadron will easily replace them and will protect Northern Fleet facilities with greater efficiency....
  37. 0
    17 January 2024 18: 49
    Whatever one may say, thanks to the author for the article. I read, surprisingly, for bread!
    But even more thanks to those who left comments here.
    No politics, just technology, beauty!
    I haven't seen anything like this here for a long time, unfortunately.