StG 44: testing the viability of the concept

112
StG 44: testing the viability of the concept
MP 44 with sniper scope. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann


Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn?
Not warm.
Get me a gun
Find me a gun,
Buy me a machine.
Quicker.

"Dear Boy" (1974)
Music D. Tukhmanova, lyrics. L. Derbeneva.

stories about weapons. This is how useful and interesting discussions can be at VO. For example, in a number of comments to the first material of the series, someone complained that it did not show the priority of our gunsmith Fedorov. Well, of course, the person grew up reading Soviet books. Where any mention of something foreign had to have a link to our authority. The Soviet one was better, but the “authority of the empire” was even suitable. Russia, after all. A discussion ensued, the outcome of which I will not retell, but which turned out to be very useful. Firstly, she suggested the idea of ​​a new cycle, and secondly, she “showed the way” to Fedorov’s machine gun - suddenly she would be able to “hold on to it”... Well, and in the process of preparing a new cycle, find out interesting details. In particular, I found this text on the Internet:



“The Italian army used an unusually small cartridge for this period in their rifles. However, the result was that this automatic rifle was the first serious attempt to create a weapon with the type of intermediate cartridge that we now call an “automatic”, that is, before the Fedorov assault rifle of 1916.”


StG 44 from the collection of the Army Museum in Stockholm

Of course, we can immediately and indiscriminately declare that this is another attempt by Russophobes on the Internet to take away our “achievements” from us. But... this statement is based on something. And if it is not unfounded, if the performance characteristics of the Chei-Rigotti* 1900 rifle (and cartridge) are exactly as stated, then the respected V. G. Fedorov will have to make room a little on his pedestal. That is, again, its priority is undeniable here in Russia, but, most likely, not in the world. However, materials about this are ahead. In the meantime, we will continue the story about the “Sturmgewehr”...


Disassembly of MP 43/MP 44. All their main parts are very clearly visible. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

Hugo Schmeisser claimed that from June 1943 to April 1945, 424 MP 000, MP 43, StG 44 assault rifles were produced at four factories in Germany. At the Haenel plant in Suhl, 44; 185 released "Saurer and Son" in Suhl; 000 were produced in Erfurt; and 55 by Steyr-Daimler-Puch in Steyr, Austria. This was less than the 000 million ordered and far less than the planned 104 million. From 000 to 80, 000 million rounds of 1,5x4mm Kurtz ammunition were produced. Moreover, at the beginning of March 1942, the troops had 1945 million rounds of ammunition, and the replenishment reserve was 822 million rounds.


Bolt carrier with gas piston and charging handle (top) and bolt at the bottom. The protrusions with which they hooked onto each other are clearly visible. And it is clear that locking the barrel with such a device could only be done by tilting the bolt. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

Towards the end of the war, last attempts were made to develop a cheap example of the so-called “people's rifle” (Volksgewehr) in 7,92x33 mm caliber. One of them, the Gostlow Volkssturmgewehr (People's Assault Rifle), used a blowback Barnitzke system, in which the release of gas from the barrel near the chamber created resistance to the rearward movement of the bolt, which stopped when the bullet exited the barrel, allowing the bolt to move rearward due to the residual pressure of the liner. But the train had already left, and even the most “successful” new products could not save the Reich.


Butt. The most basic thing in a firearm, but you can't do without it. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann


The Sturmgever remained in service with the East German National People's Army under the designation MPi.44 until it was replaced by the Soviet AK-47 assault rifle. The People's Police of the GDR used it until about 1962

But even after this, it was still used by other public security forces. Ammunition was produced there until at least 1961. Other countries that used the StG 44 after World War II included Czechoslovakia (although it was not officially adopted there) and Yugoslavia, where the Gever was equipped with parachute battalions until the 1980s. But that's it story didn't end. It was transferred to the territorial defense reserve and began to be actively sold to friendly regimes in the Middle East and Africa. And France even accepted captured StG 44s to arm the colonial units of the Foreign Legion.


Spring-loaded ejection hole cover. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

Argentina produced its own prototype versions of the StG 44, manufactured by CITEFA in the late 1940s and early 1950s. But in 1955, it adopted the FN FAL rifle, since it had an abundance of NATO cartridges of 7,62x51 mm caliber.


View of USM. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

New semi-automatic civilian copies of the MKb 42(H), MP 43/1 and StG 44 are today manufactured in Germany by SSD (Sport Systeme Dittrich) and sold by HZA Kulmbach GmbH with the original Kurz 7,92x33mm chamber. A copy of the StG 44 chambered in .22 caliber from GSG (German Sporting Arms) was also produced in large quantities at a lower price, but this was the only cheap copy of the StG. As for the 7,92 mm Kurtz ammunition, it is currently produced by the Serbian company Prvi Partizan.


I used to always be interested in what kind of rod with a ball at the end sticks out of the MP 44 gas chamber. And this is just its plug, in which a hole was prudently made for unscrewing. Well, why the rod? And in order not to burn your hands! The plug could be hot, while the long rod cooled quickly. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

The StG 44 was the first assault rifle to be adopted and put into mass production.

“The principle of this weapon—reducing the muzzle impulse to provide useful automatic fire at actual combat ranges—was probably the most important advance in small arms since the invention of smokeless powder.”

The influence of the StG 44 on post-war armament was quite varied, as evidenced by Mikhail Kalashnikov's AK-47 and later Eugene Stoner's M16 and their variants. That is, the main borrowing was not the technology, but the very concept of such weapons and... the conviction that this problem could be solved. And the technical solutions themselves were purely national. In particular, the AK-47 used an intermediate cartridge, similar to the German one, but the bolt was rotating... In 1944, the United States added the ability to automatically fire to the M1 carbine and released it as the M2 carbine with 30-round magazines, which essentially did , the same function as the StG 44. Kits were created to convert M1 carbines to M2 carbines in the field.


The MP 44 had a very convenient and durable magazine! Although, due to its great length, it was not very convenient to shoot from this “Gever”. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

By the way, the cartridge itself for our machine gun appeared after the technical council of the People's Commissariat of Armaments (NKV) met in July 1943 to consider new foreign weapons that fired lower-power cartridges. Two cartridges were studied: the American .30 Carbine and the German 7,92 Kurz, captured along with the MKb 42(H), which were undergoing military tests. At the meeting it was concluded that the 7,92 mm caliber cartridge is an important achievement, and that we also need to develop a cartridge of reduced power. As a result, the first prototype of the 7,62 mm M1943 cartridge was created just a month later. The adoption of the M1 Carbine by the US Army in 1941 proved the usefulness of a small, handy, low-powered rifle that required little training to use effectively. Later, the Soviet Union further lightened the AK-47 with the creation of the AKM, and the United States developed the concept of high-velocity small-caliber bullets and further reduced the weapon's weight with the introduction of the M16 (5,56 mm) rifle. After which the USSR also adopted an assault rifle chambered for 5,45 mm.


"Store Sponges" Photo by Dmitry Gillmann

Well, StG 44 continued to fight after the war. French troops found them in Algeria, where they came from Czechoslovakia. The Viet Cong used them during the Vietnam War. The StG 44 was used by rebels in Somalia. The Americans found them among militias in Iraq. In September 2013, a Syrian rebel appeared in a photo with a Sturmgewehr connected to a makeshift remote-controlled weapons station. The machine gun was controlled by a wired joystick, the view was provided by a video camera installed behind the sight, and the picture was displayed on the LCD screen. In 2013, a small number of StG 44s were confiscated from rebels in Burkina Faso. They are believed to have been obtained from government warehouses during the Libyan civil war and then sold on the black market.


MP 44 is already in use today. A still from the Soviet-Polish film “The Rape of the Savoy”, 1979. And this is not surprising, because after the war its production was established in Argentina. So there was enough for all the drug traffickers in South America!

*There was an article about the Chei-Rigotti rifle at VO by our author Kirill Ryabov:
Automatic rifle A. Chey-Rigotti (Italy)

PS


The author expresses gratitude to Dmitry Gillmann for the photographs he provided.
112 comments
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  1. +6
    3 December 2023 08: 35
    Regarding the use of "Storms" in our cinema. Many people know their use in “The Tale of Malchish-Kibalchish”...
    But here is also a fairy tale from 1970, which is unlikely to be shown to our children and grandchildren now, and it also shows “Assaults...” Which, in principle, is not surprising, remembering what reserves were stored in the mines of Soledar
  2. +1
    3 December 2023 08: 50
    Hm. Well, I can’t resist. M 16 and Ak 47 are conceptually different weapons. And the heir to the Sturmgewehr concept is only the Ak 47. The intermediate and rifle cartridges are very different in capabilities. And that’s why Fedorov’s machine gun is on the side. This is an automatic rifle. And the M 16 is not suitable for a low-pulse rifle cartridge.
    1. +1
      3 December 2023 08: 58
      Quote: garri-lin
      And the heir to the Sturmgewehr concept is only the Ak 47.

      But why? AKM is the same as all our assault rifles chambered for 7,62x39... even the modern AK-15)))
      The cartridge is intermediate, unlike even the 5,45X39, which in its parameters is related to a rifle
      Quote: garri-lin
      The intermediate and rifle cartridges have very different capabilities.

      Here you can argue that they are rather different in their characteristics, especially in the ratio of caliber to case length
      1. +1
        3 December 2023 09: 33
        I meant the entire line of “continuations” on this cartridge. And Kovrovets too.
        The characteristics are different, but this affects the capabilities.
      2. +6
        3 December 2023 18: 03
        How does 5.45x39 relate to rifles? This is an intermediate, low-pulse cartridge like 5.56x45
      3. 0
        4 December 2023 12: 00
        I note that the shutter skew is MkB42H, and the rotation is MkB42W, made by Walter, which was also produced in notable series. They wrote about the M1 carbine here that the conversion to a car was a front-line initiative, which was later made into series production.
    2. +8
      3 December 2023 09: 11
      Quote: garri-lin
      The successor to the Sturmgewehr concept is only the Ak 47.

      And the heir to the design with two receivers - upper and lower - is only the M-16, so whatever you say, they took both here and there from the stormtrooper, but - different
    3. +4
      3 December 2023 09: 55
      Honestly, this is the first time I’ve heard about the film, not for the sake of weapons, but just for fun, I’ll watch it today hi
      1. +5
        3 December 2023 11: 03
        Quote: bandabas
        I'll take a look today

        Look! And our iconic actors are very convincing in it.
    4. -4
      3 December 2023 17: 20
      Quote: garri-lin
      M 16 and Ak 47 are conceptually different weapons.

      What is the difference? In the area of ​​application? No, but the increased accuracy of the M-16 is mainly due to the better quality of the mass-produced cartridge. In the design? Yes, so what? Kalash is not at all similar to ShtG.

      Quote: garri-lin
      And that’s why Fedorov’s machine gun is on the side.
      Yes, but you, like the author, are missing the main thing, the Fedorov cartridge is a specially created cartridge for automatic individual weapons, and the cartridge, compared to 7,62*54, has a reduced impulse. The author can be forgiven, the author is technically a zero.
      1. +2
        3 December 2023 17: 31
        It's not just the cartridge. Gross. M 16 and M 4 are also different. If I had the M 16 in battle, I would have fired single shots. AKM short bursts. AK 74 is also single.
        7,62 39 and 5,56 cartridges are different. And it’s impossible to call 5,56 intermediate. This is a low-pulse rifle cartridge.
        Well, Fedorov had more of an automatic rifle and not a machine gun chambered for an intermediate cartridge. And if you look more closely and dream, you can draw a paradoxical conclusion. With the scheme that Fedorov used, it would have been a self-loading rifle with the ability to fire automatically. Very far from the machine gun chambered for an intermediate cartridge.
        The Stig 44 is still an automatic rifle chambered for a semi-intermediate cartridge.
      2. +3
        3 December 2023 20: 50
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Moreover, the cartridge compared to 7,62*54 with a reduced impulse.

        They have already explained to you about the cartridge: Fedorov’s original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J. For example, 6,5 × 50 Arisaka has 2700 J, 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano 2900 J, 6.5 × 55 Swedish Mauser 2900 J and these are typical rifle cartridges of their time.
        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?
        But you stubbornly continue to weave about low-impulse behavior. What, the 1949 record is stuck?
        1. 0
          4 December 2023 03: 44
          Quote: kalibr
          They have already explained to you about the cartridge: Fedorov’s original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J.

          Who explained it, you? And where does the figure of 3100 come from, from sources in which there is not a word about the amount of gunpowder? So, you and others like you cannot understand that with a weight of 2,2 grams of gunpowder in a Fedorov cartridge and a bullet weight of 8,5 g, it is impossible to obtain either 3100 J or 850 m/s.

          Quote: kalibr
          But you stubbornly continue to weave about low-impulse behavior. What, the 1949 record is stuck?
          Your record has been jammed since 91... Against the background of 7,62*54 and in 1911, and even under the tsarist generals, a cartridge with an energy of 2700-2750 J is practically, by design, transitional. And this cartridge was created specifically and initially for automatic weapons. There are no rifles chambered for Fedorov. About the same as for German and Soviet cartridges.
          1. 0
            4 December 2023 07: 27
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Who explained it, you? And where does the figure of 3100 come from, from sources in which there is not a word about the amount of gunpowder? So, you and others like you cannot understand that with a weight of 2,2 grams of gunpowder in a Fedorov cartridge and a bullet weight of 8,5 g, it is impossible to obtain either 3100 J or 850 m/s.

            There was a link to the source. Information comes from the Akashic only to you!
            1. 0
              4 December 2023 08: 56
              Quote: kalibr
              There was a link to the source. Information comes from the Akashic only to you!

              And, how good it is to be able to turn on idiot mode when it comes to specific things. Is there any information about the attachment in the link?

              https://alex-cat-1975.livejournal.com/5813.html?ysclid=lpagtry7mn585932091
              Here's the weight.
              1. +1
                22 December 2023 16: 54
                So Russian gunpowder was also...uh.. less “powerful”...And it was with this that the cartridges were loaded at the Sestroretsk plant...as a result, the energy of the cartridge was even lower..
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. 0
        3 December 2023 20: 54
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The author can be forgiven, the author is technically a zero.

        But it rewrites those who are not zero! Or do you think that knowledge comes into people’s heads from Akashic? Or so - I held the cartridge in my hands and learned everything about it. And whoever didn’t hold it didn’t recognize it? So what?
        1. -2
          4 December 2023 03: 48
          Quote: kalibr
          But it rewrites those who are not zero! Or do you think that knowledge comes into people’s heads from Akashic? Or so - I held the cartridge in my hands and learned everything about it. And whoever didn’t hold it didn’t recognize it? So what?

          You are such an expert, but you don’t know about the amount of gunpowder in Fedorov’s cartridge...
          1. 0
            4 December 2023 07: 29
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            You are such an expert, but you don’t know about the amount of gunpowder in Fedorov’s cartridge...

            Why keep in mind what is in reference books... If I were aware of everything I write about, I would have been in a mental hospital long ago.
            1. -1
              4 December 2023 08: 58
              Quote: kalibr
              Why keep in mind what is in reference books... If I were aware of everything I write about, I would have been in a mental hospital long ago.

              Yes, the point is that you don’t understand basic things - i.e. zero in the simplest technical things. But you have a judgment...
      5. +4
        3 December 2023 22: 33
        Moreover, the cartridge compared to 7,62*54 with a reduced impulse

        So what, the 7,62 x 54 mm cartridge is a kind of benchmark and everything below is low-pulse?
        1. -3
          4 December 2023 03: 50
          Quote: Dekabrist
          So what, the 7,62 x 54 mm cartridge is a kind of benchmark and everything below is low-pulse?

          With a weight of 2,2 g of gunpowder in the Fedorov cartridge, 3100 J is unattainable. Therefore, yes, 3500 J 7,62*54 versus approximately 2700-2750 J of Fedorov, in 1914 in Tsarist Russia - low-pulse.
          1. 0
            4 December 2023 07: 30
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            With a weight of 2,2 g of gunpowder in the Fedorov cartridge, 3100 J is unattainable. Therefore, yes, 3500 J 7,62*54 versus approximately 2700-2750 J of Fedorov, in 1914 in Tsarist Russia - low-pulse.

            Well, that's what you decided. And who are you to pay any attention to your words?
            1. -1
              4 December 2023 08: 59
              Quote: kalibr
              Well, that's what you decided. And who are you to pay any attention to your words?

              And who are you? Zero in technical things, and sometimes in logic?
    5. +2
      3 December 2023 17: 31
      M 16 and Ak 47 are conceptually different weapons. And the heir to the Sturmgewehr concept is only the Ak 47

      Come on... :)
      Although Kalash had one version of the AK-46, which was also an upper/lover...
      1. -1
        3 December 2023 18: 29
        What does aper lover have to do with it????
        5,56 NATO low-pulse rifle cartridge.
        7,62 39 intermediate.
        1. -1
          4 December 2023 00: 11
          Quote: garri-lin
          5,56 NATO low-pulse rifle cartridge.
          7,62 39 intermediate.

          5.56x45mm (.223 Remington) NATO is a low-pulse intermediate cartridge with a bottle-shaped wafer-shaped case.

          Pedivikia supervised by the State Department. Do you think the mattresses know about themselves, rifle or intermediate?
          1. -1
            4 December 2023 00: 35
            Why then was the M 16 always listed in their assault RIFLES???
            1. -1
              4 December 2023 03: 46
              Quote: garri-lin
              Why then was the M 16 always listed in their assault RIFLES???

              Have you tried to translate the name "Sturmgever"? And then, according to your logic, what is the rifle cartridge for the Sturmgewehr?
              1. 0
                4 December 2023 08: 51
                I meant something else. All these terms are nothing more than names. Proper name. You need to look at the characteristics. And in terms of characteristics, the M 16 cartridge is closer to a rifle cartridge than to an intermediate one. 5,45 39 having a more advanced bullet from an aerodynamic point of view will be weaker. And 5,56 is already on the verge. And when shooting from a full-fledged weapon with a normal long barrel, it quite fits the definition of a rifle.
                1. 0
                  4 December 2023 09: 04
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  And when shooting from a full-fledged weapon with a normal long barrel, it quite fits the definition of a rifle.

                  I didn’t expect Shpakovsky’s level from you... The relative barrel length of the M-16 is quite rifle-like - about 70 calibers, where else?
                  1. -1
                    4 December 2023 21: 21
                    Well, I’m not a specialist and have no specialized education. So I may never reach Shpakovsky’s level. I'm just a theorist and I love weapons.
                    By a full-fledged barrel, I meant the M 16. The same M 4 will no longer allow the cartridge to realize itself so fully.
                    1. 0
                      5 December 2023 03: 25
                      Quote: garri-lin
                      Well, I’m not a specialist and have no specialized education. So I may never reach Shpakovsky’s level. I'm just a theorist and I love weapons.

                      I remember your comments on the art. a topic that is clearly above my base)) hi . I also can’t reach Shpakovsky’s level, for example in the field of laces for the combat trousers of the French nobility. lol
          2. +3
            4 December 2023 00: 40
            No, they don't. Since they do not have the very concept of “intermediate cartridge” in their classification. Just as there is no such class of weapon as “machine gun”. They have assault rifles. RIFLES. And they have rifle cartridges. Low-impulse rifle. And the word “intermediate” appears only when translated into Russian.
            If it makes it easier for you, our machine is automatic carbine. It is the carbine and its cartridge that are “carbine”; it is impossible to make a rifle in this caliber based on it. US cartridges are rifle cartridges, on their basis you can make a carbine (in fact, this is how it was usually done) and a rifle in the same caliber. And the word “automatic” itself in those days in the USSR was used in general for all self-loading systems capable of firing in bursts, with the exception of machine guns. There were “anti-aircraft machine guns” and “artillery machine guns”.

            Here is what Fedorov wrote:
            “...the combat experience of the Second World War brought forward the need, on the one hand, for a transition from a submachine gun to an automatic carbine, designed for a new intermediate cartridge and having a longer barrel than a submachine gun, on the other hand, for a transition from long rifles to carbines and the development of a cartridge for them that meets the conditions of modern combat (reducing the firing distance) ... The goal of designing a new type of automatic carbine will be to obtain an accurate, targeted single shot at distances within 400 meters with the possibility of continuous fire. The latter, despite its lesser reality. will certainly give good results (when repelling attacks and when firing at large targets), not to mention the enormous moral value.”


            The 1946 competition was announced to replace not rifles, but PP.
            TTT (No. 3131-1945)
            “... the machine gun should be an individual weapon intended for arming machine gunners in rifle units, in special teams of all branches of the military, instead of the PP-41 and PP-43 in service... The machine gun is intended mainly for hitting living targets at firing ranges of up to 500 m, aiming firing range - 800 m."
            1. 0
              5 December 2023 03: 27
              Quote: abc_alex
              If it's easier for you, our machine gun is an automatic carbine. It is the carbine and its cartridge that are “carbine”; it is impossible to make a rifle in this caliber based on it.

              Your formation is broken by the appearance of an AK-74... With a rifle relative barrel length.
            2. 0
              8 December 2023 14: 17
              Quote: abc_alex
              Since they do not have the very concept of “intermediate cartridge” in their classification

              Google intermediate cartridge, even if it’s on Wikipedia)
      2. +2
        4 December 2023 00: 26
        Quote: Sedoy
        Although Kalash had one version of the AK-46, which was also an upper/lover...

        This is not a version. This is actually the sample that was first shown at the competition. And which after the first round was radically redesigned. It never became a version, since it was sent for rework by the selection committee.
      3. 0
        4 December 2023 15: 53
        Guys, why invent a bicycle? There is the Russian language, which has everything: the receiver and the trigger box. The AK (eventually) has a combined receiver and trigger, while the Stg 44 and M16 have them separated. Main! Is there a partition between them? To collect dirt and jam the bolt frame.
    6. +1
      4 December 2023 00: 23
      Quote: garri-lin
      Fedorov's machine gun on the side. This is an automatic rifle.

      Fedorov himself generally called it a machine gun. More accurately, a “submachine gun.”
      1. +1
        4 December 2023 00: 37
        Well, what can I say? Every new thing appears without a name. They name it after the fact.
  3. +2
    3 December 2023 08: 59
    StG 44: testing the viability of the concept
    Checking what? What concept? What is the article all about? The fact that automatic weapons were developed in many countries? Amazing! The author apparently “won” so decisively in other discussions, which he irritably mentions, that he wrote a separate article where he will not be bothered by those who bullied him in those discussions.
    Yes, Fedorov is not the first in the development of automatic systems; there is no first to be identified. The only question was that the Russian Empire was at the very forefront of progress and was developing the most advanced weapons at that time. This seems to infuriate the author beyond belief. Apparently RI, in his understanding, could not be technically advanced.
    Well, the title... well, what's the title? Speak openly, and they will begin to pinch you for Russophobia, and rightly so. This is not what the author wants at all...
    1. +1
      3 December 2023 11: 05
      Quote: Mikhail3
      This seems to infuriate the author beyond belief.

      It seems... You see, you yourself are not completely sure of this. Leave yourself a loophole just in case. I can only recommend the old grandfather’s method: when something seems to be happening, you need to be baptized!
      1. 0
        5 December 2023 08: 18
        Actually, whistling helps better)
    2. +6
      3 December 2023 12: 33
      The task before the Soviet weapons school was to develop weapons for an intermediate cartridge. We solved it brilliantly, in our own way, no need to belittle it. Three competitions, with dozens of samples, not just one Kalashnikov. Yes, others in the world worked too. But it works completely differently when there is already proof that an engineering problem can be solved - there was a stormtrooper, in service, in production, proven in battle. This is his merit. Paved the way. Of course, those who followed, and even in peacetime, proposed more successful solutions. They didn’t copy, there weren’t any nodes that couldn’t be made better.

      By the way, Stg44 was not the only one. There were also Mauser and Walter machine guns, which in appearance were not immediately distinguishable from Schmeiser.
    3. -3
      3 December 2023 13: 07
      Quote: Mikhail3
      The only question was that the Russian Empire was at the very forefront of progress and was developing the most advanced weapons at that time. This seems to infuriate the author beyond belief. Apparently RI, in his understanding, could not be technically advanced.
      those who call Shpakovsky will now start kicking you anti-Soviet lol Because in their understanding he is OBLIGED to idolize RI and the crunch of buns in general

      Hit painfully and furiously
      1. +1
        5 December 2023 08: 20
        In general, I am amused by the furious interference of ideology and various emotions in technical issues.
    4. +5
      3 December 2023 18: 10
      The Russian Empire was at the very forefront of progress and developed the most advanced weapons at that time

      Well, here you clearly got carried away, especially against the backdrop of how the Russian Empire was buying up any available weapons all over the world in order to arm its own army.
      1. Alf
        0
        3 December 2023 22: 29
        Quote: Dekabrist
        The Russian Empire was at the very forefront of progress and developed the most advanced weapons at that time

        Well, here you clearly got carried away, especially against the backdrop of how the Russian Empire was buying up any available weapons all over the world in order to arm its own army.

        “Develop” and “supply” are completely different things.
        1. +4
          3 December 2023 22: 36
          That is, the point was so sharp that there was no longer room on it to “provide”?
          1. Alf
            +1
            3 December 2023 22: 39
            Quote: Dekabrist
            That is, the point was so sharp that there was no longer room on it to “provide”?

            It turns out this way, especially if we remember the state of the RI arms industry before the war.
            1. +5
              3 December 2023 22: 41
              If you look at it without bias, then at this cutting edge and with “develop”, especially “advanced”, it was also, to put it mildly, not very good.
              1. Alf
                +2
                3 December 2023 22: 45
                Quote: Dekabrist
                If you look at it without bias, then at this cutting edge and with “develop”, especially “advanced”, it was also, to put it mildly, not very good.

                Especially if you remember the statement of N2 - “I am against the adoption of an automatic rifle, since there is not enough ammunition for it.”
                1. +3
                  3 December 2023 22: 52
                  You can also remember General Dragomirov.
                  1. Alf
                    +3
                    3 December 2023 22: 53
                    Quote: Dekabrist
                    You can also remember General Dragomirov.

                    Yes, you can't argue with facts...
          2. 0
            5 December 2023 11: 07
            Quote: Dekabrist
            That is, the point was so sharp that there was no longer room on it to “provide”?

            The Soviet army had a bunch of new weapons, but at the same time in Kushka on the border with Afghanistan in 1988 we had D1 howitzers of the 1943 model.
            1. +2
              5 December 2023 19: 27
              The Soviet army had a bunch of new weapons, but at the same time in Kushka on the border with Afghanistan in 1988 we had D1 howitzers of the 1943 model.

              And how does your comment relate to the topic of discussion?
              1. 0
                5 December 2023 22: 56
                Quote: Dekabrist
                The Soviet army had a bunch of new weapons, but at the same time in Kushka on the border with Afghanistan in 1988 we had D1 howitzers of the 1943 model.

                And how does your comment relate to the topic of discussion?

                Not only the Republic of Ingushetia but also the USSR could not cope with supplying new/latest weapons.
                Just like the RI, the USSR bought new types of weapons.
                He was able to go much further in the development of weapons - than the Republic of Ingushetia.
                But in Kushka, as in the Republic of Ingushetia, there were technical military antiquities.
                Any questions?
                1. +2
                  6 December 2023 00: 19
                  Any questions?

                  Yes, I actually didn’t have any.
                  1. 0
                    6 December 2023 10: 19
                    Quote: Dekabrist
                    Any questions?

                    Yes, I actually didn’t have any.

                    Yes? Isn’t this a question with meaning and a question mark at the end?
                    Quote: Dekabrist
                    The Soviet army had a bunch of new weapons, but at the same time in Kushka on the border with Afghanistan in 1988 we had D1 howitzers of the 1943 model.

                    And how does your comment relate to the topic of discussion?
                    1. 0
                      6 December 2023 10: 36
                      And that's not a question

                      This is so - thinking out loud.
  4. AUL
    +14
    3 December 2023 09: 02
    In particular, the AK-47 used an intermediate cartridge, similar to the German one, but the bolt was rotating...
    Maybe, after all, a rotary one? winked
  5. +7
    3 December 2023 09: 19
    You can (better) not read the preview further...
    1. -2
      3 December 2023 11: 07
      So you have already done everything you could for the site and for me personally...
  6. +10
    3 December 2023 09: 24
    Towards the end of the war, last attempts were made to develop a cheap example of the so-called “people's rifle” (Volksgewehr) in 7,92x33 mm caliber. One of them, the Gostlow Volkssturmgewehr (People's Assault Rifle), used a blowback Barnitzke system, in which the release of gas from the barrel near the chamber created resistance to the rearward movement of the bolt, which stopped when the bullet exited the barrel, allowing the bolt to move rearward due to the residual pressure of the liner. But the train had already left, and even the most “successful” new products could not save the Reich.

    The rifles were called Volkssturmgewehr. There were several of them, produced by different companies, but there was only one rifle chambered for the 7,92 × 33 mm cartridge, from Gustloff Werke - Volkssturmgewehr VG 1-5 or VG-45.
    The design turned out to be extremely unsuccessful.
    1. +5
      3 December 2023 10: 00
      About films and photos...
      There was our war film in the 70-80s about the storming of some fortress. The Germans in black uniforms were all StG.
      And a year ago there was material with photos about hostages and the French in East Africa in the 70s, where French special forces shot at a black checkpoint that was just with StG.
      I also thought about cartridges - what a reserve there is left around the world, if there was enough for Africa.
      1. +4
        3 December 2023 12: 15
        About films and photos...

        As a child, my friends and I were always surprised that in films about the war, made in the socialist camp, all the Germans were running around with Kalash guns. We didn’t even know about StG then.
        1. +2
          4 December 2023 00: 54
          And the filmmakers knew even less. So the Fritzes on the screen were all running around with Schmeisers, that is, MP-40s. And yes, they didn’t know. That the MP-40 was developed by Volmer, not Schmeisser. And the mass-produced weapon was the Mauser 98K. God bless the Internet! wink But those films were still quite good, I share your opinion! :)
    2. +5
      3 December 2023 11: 08
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The rifles were called Volkssturmgewehr. There were several of them, produced by different companies, but there was only one rifle chambered for the 7,92 × 33 mm cartridge, from Gustloff Werke - Volkssturmgewehr VG 1-5 or VG-45.
      The design turned out to be extremely unsuccessful.

      Thank you!
  7. +13
    3 December 2023 09: 53
    In particular, I found this text on the Internet:

    The text below stating that the Italian 6.5×52mm Carcano cartridge is an intermediate cartridge could only be written by an individual who has no idea what an intermediate cartridge is.
    1. +3
      3 December 2023 10: 08
      Is there a definition of an intermediate cartridge? By power, size, caliber?
      1. +13
        3 December 2023 10: 38
        Is there a definition of an intermediate cartridge? By power, size, caliber?

        Is.
        Working pressure - 320,00–430,00 MPa.
        Muzzle energy - 1250–2500 J
        Initial speed - 700–950 m/s
        There is also such a little-mentioned parameter as overbore - the ratio of the internal volume of the cartridge case to the cross-section of the barrel bore.
        For intermediate cartridges this parameter is 2,87 - 7,99.
      2. +1
        4 December 2023 01: 03
        Well, at least this cartridge is stronger than a pistol cartridge, but weaker than a rifle cartridge. If you want, I can put it differently, this is a cartridge on the basis of which you can make a carbine, but you cannot make a rifle in this caliber.
    2. +6
      3 December 2023 10: 43
      By the way, if you are looking for a candidate for using an intermediate cartridge among the first automatic rifles, then the French Rossignol ENT B1 chambered for the 6x60mmSR cartridge, developed in the same years as the Italian Cei-Rigotti, is more suitable. The 6×60mmSR cartridge, in terms of muzzle energy, just fits into modern parameters for intermediate cartridges.
    3. -1
      4 December 2023 04: 01
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The text below stating that the Italian 6.5×52mm Carcano cartridge is an intermediate cartridge could only be written by an individual who has no idea what an intermediate cartridge is.

      Specifically, there is no Carcano, if only because it was designed for a rifle, but Fedorovsky, against the backdrop of 7,62 * 54 and the tsarist generals and their mentality, is already quite. And with a weight of 2,2-2,25 g of gunpowder, it did not give 3100 J. 2,700-2,750 max. and yet, there were no rifles chambered for the Fedorov cartridge.
  8. +3
    3 December 2023 10: 37
    In general, I’ll bore you again.
    If a person writes about weapons and claims to be competent, then such a model as AK 47, etc. must be forgotten and excluded. THERE WAS NO SUCH MACHINE! Did not have! The bourgeoisie came up with this.
    And there was and is - AK.
    1. +1
      3 December 2023 11: 10
      I read many books by our Soviet and Russian authors. And there it is...
      1. +1
        3 December 2023 11: 16
        Here, for example, is a group of authors: Shokarev, Plotnikov and Dragunov - all well-known weapons specialists. Plotnikov is the head of his department at the Russian Army Museum. And in their book “Firearms” (Avanta +, 2007) we read on page 176 - AK-47. I believe them more than you, dear. And - most importantly, when I write this in my book, editors and reviewers will ask me - “where it comes from,” and I will tell them. But no one knows about you and it would be stupid to refer to you.
    2. +1
      3 December 2023 12: 51
      The people came up with it, not the bourgeoisie. “Deciphered” “Automatic carbine”, which according to instructions is like “Kalashnikov assault rifle”
    3. +2
      3 December 2023 15: 48
      Not certainly in that way. The name AK-47 was used for the first trial batches, after modification it went into service with the troops under the name AK. Americans traditionally call AK-47, as in the first batches
      AK-47

      At the end of 1947 - beginning of 1948, a pilot batch of 1500 pieces was produced for combined arms testing. The test sample did not pass, after which it was modified and adopted by the USSR in 1949 under the name “Kalashnikov Avtomat” (AK)

      But there is such a picture on the Internet; perhaps the name was used for some time in parallel after 1949.
      1. +1
        4 December 2023 01: 37
        Quote from solar
        But there is such a picture on the Internet; perhaps the name was used for some time in parallel after 1949.

        And there is also this picture
        1. 0
          4 December 2023 02: 18
          Yes, thanks for the document provided. Since 1949, the AK-47 began to be called the Kalashnikov Avtomat. In the service manual, the old name AK-47 was duplicated in parentheses so that there were no discrepancies.
    4. +3
      3 December 2023 16: 14
      The Kalashnikov Media website describes it like this:
      Based on the test results in January 1948, a government decision was made to produce the first experimental batch of Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifles at Izhevsk Plant No. 524... The index “AK-47” was used in various documentation and official correspondence, mainly until it was put into service, since in the system of naming small arms models established after the war, the year of entry into service was no longer indicated.

      https://kalashnikov.media/ak70/#part-1
  9. +5
    3 December 2023 11: 06
    Let's be more precise. Russian gunsmith V.G. Fedorov was first in Russia who created the machine gun using a Japanese cartridge for it (there was simply no suitable cartridge in the Republic of Ingushetia at that time), therefore, what was created there in Italy is the work of the Italians and we are not talking about pedestals. MP 43, thanks to Hugo Schmeisser, served as the ancestor for the use (creation) of an intermediate cartridge and at that time was a good and promising automatic weapon.
    1. -1
      22 December 2023 17: 09
      Quote: rotmistr60
      MP 43 thanks to Hugo Schmeisser

      Actually, Speer has both a cartridge and a weapon...
      1. 0
        23 December 2023 02: 59
        Thanks to the Reich Minister of Armament and War Production Speer, the MR was adopted by the German army. And the creator is Hugo Schmeisser.
        1. 0
          23 December 2023 07: 01
          Ha-ha. Thanks to the Reich Minister of Armament and War Production, Speer was allocated money and given the task of creating weapons chambered for Kurtz, as well as what conditions and tasks this weapon should meet. And this was issued in the form of an order. But the company’s competitors did not pass by Walter also expressed a desire... And the “creator” is not exactly Schmeisser. debugging this issue was completely unsuccessful and the Merz company was connected, and Walter began to develop their A-115.
  10. +5
    3 December 2023 11: 11
    Automatic rifle A. Chey-Rigotti (Italy)
    Article from 2016 on Military Review.
    Posted by Ryabov Kiril
    1. +8
      3 December 2023 12: 14
      Automatic rifle A. Chey-Rigotti (Italy)
      Article from 2016 on Military Review.
      Posted by Ryabov Kiril

      An article in the appropriate style of this author. A lot of letters and a minimum of information.
      1. 0
        3 December 2023 12: 58
        The main thing is that this “machine gun” was not adopted for service.
        What T. Yu. Skorenko writes about in his book.
        The Italian designer tried to remake his “product” for all then known cartridges, but no one was interested.
  11. +3
    3 December 2023 12: 46
    When can we expect an article on the evolution of weapons entitled “The Evolution of Weapons: From Core Stone to Rotating Bolt”?
  12. +3
    3 December 2023 12: 55
    MP 44 is already in use today. A still from the Soviet-Polish film “The Rape of the Savoy”, 1979.

    I remember when I watched this film and Malchish, I perceived the stormtroopers simply as a “foreign” weapon; under the USSR I had never heard that the Germans had one. When computer games started, I was surprised to discover that my ideas about wartime weapons were far from reality.
    As for the intermediate cartridge, it is not so easy to distinguish who is intermediate and who is not according to formal parameters, especially since the same cartridge can have versions with different power (barrel length must also be taken into account). As a rule, we have a very poor idea of ​​the variety of cartridges, so little is known about many cartridges that are intermediate in power between pistol and rifle cartridges, although they have been around since the 19th century.
    .30-30 Winchester, Muzzle velocity, m/s 670…820, Bullet energy, J 1700…2200, ancient .38-55 Winchester, .25-35 Winchester Center Fire, pre-war .219 Zipper and others for rifles with a brace Henry.
    There is also a problem with the classification of weapons, since there is not such a big line between a light machine gun and an automatic rifle (in those days the term automatic rifle was often classified as self-loading).
    Fedorov, who was trying to create a self-loading rifle, returned from a trip abroad during the First World War with the conviction that the future belonged to “machine guns.”
    In January 1916, Colonel V. G. Fedorov, who returned to Russia, particularly touches on the issue of automatic weapons: “It is not automatic rifles that are being ordered, but submachine guns, which, in my opinion <...> at present are certainly of greater importance, than the mentioned rifles. <…> Even if we had <…> a completed automatic rifle, <…> it would be inappropriate to establish its production in factories.

    Therefore, Fedorov decided to hastily adapt his ideas for a self-loading rifle to actually a light machine gun (it was called an automatic machine gun already in the 20s at the suggestion of the head of the rifle range N.I. Filatov, which caused confusion in the terminology for many years to come).
    We took what was at hand - Arisaka cartridges, quickly making an insert for them, since the sizes of the cartridges did not match. Due to the fact that the barrel of the Fedorov rifle was shorter than the Arisak barrel, the actual muzzle energy of the Arisako rifle cartridge, although weak, became even less. But the problem was that Fedorov chose for his self-loading rifle an automation scheme that was not the most successful for this type of weapon - a scheme with a short barrel stroke, which was usually used in pistols. More or less suitable for real use examples of self-loading rifles according to this scheme can be counted on one hand; in reality, only the Johnson M1941 Johnson rifle comes to mind, and even that was used only forcedly, due to a shortage of Garands.
    The first self-loading rifles - the Mexican Mondragon rifle of 1908, the French RCS 1917 of 1917, the Garand and the ABC-36 of 1936 - used automatic equipment with gas removal from the barrel, which later became widespread.
    Fedorov not only chose an automatic system that was unsuccessful for a self-loading rifle, but actually simply introduced an automatic firing mode into it.
    Obviously, the weapon was obviously unsuccessful for use. Fedorov himself understood this perfectly well.
    In general, the Fedorov assault rifle, as the author himself pointed out[10], turned out to be an insufficiently reliable and overly complex design, so it had no chance of becoming a mass-produced weapon.

    Simonov and Degtyarev, who worked with Fedorov and also carried out developments using a gas exhaust scheme, understood this. In fact, Degtyarev, simultaneously with Fedorov, in 1916 created an automatic carbine chambered for the Arisaka cartridge according to the automatic system with gas exhaust, but it remained in the shadow of Fedorov’s rifle.
    1. +3
      3 December 2023 17: 33
      My grandfather (in active service from 1938 to 1953) called any automatic weapon a machine gun. Moreover, PPD, PPSh and PPS passed through his hands. He was dismissive of Thompson. Moreover, the conversation was about a model with a disk “heavy, after a hundred steps the padded jacket does not penetrate.” I didn’t consider SVT and SKS machine guns, although it was from him that I first learned that before the SVT there were “Simonovi machine guns, their bayonet was bent instead of a rest.” He said about Kalashnikov that they had just appeared and they would have been very useful during the war. “The range is greater than that of the PPD, but less than that of the carbine (meaning the M1944). The Germans had something similar. The company commander let me shoot, but it was inconvenient to clean it.”
      One might not particularly believe the grandfather. But in the films he identified Stig as “German - like a commander.” Already in the nineties, my father came home for lunch with an AKS-74U. He began to show how he understands it. Its receiver, unlike an AK, rises on a hinge. The grandfather then issued a killer phrase: “The German has it worse - the handle with the mechanism goes down.” Only ten years later did I understand what kind of German my grandfather was talking about.
      My personal opinion is that our modern attempts to stretch the polished definition of “machine gun” onto the foreign term “assault automatic rifle” are a little incorrect.
      In pre-revolutionary Russia, the term “machine gun” existed. This definition, along with an automatic rifle, was also used by Fedorov. The machine gun appears with an easy suggestion from Filatov, who had in mind all individual automatic weapons, with the exception of machine guns.
      Have a nice evening everyone, Kote!
    2. 0
      22 December 2023 17: 22
      Quote from solar
      , but he remained in the shadow of the Fedorov rifle

      In addition to the “shadow,” there are also industrial opportunities. The Germans, at first, also had problems with this option and therefore fooled around with all sorts of scammers..
  13. +4
    3 December 2023 13: 17
    ""I used to always be interested in what kind of rod with a ball at the end sticks out of the MP 44 gas chamber. And this is just its plug, in which a hole was prudently made for unscrewing. Well, why the rod? And in order not to burn your hands! The plug could be hot, while the long rod cooled quickly. Photo by Dmitry Gillmann"" "now it has become clear where the legs of that plug on the AK-12 come from, which replaced the gas tube (with the receiver guard) from the AK-74 (and in general the entire AK line) from only the hole for unscrewing the Kalashnikov concern copied (sorry of course developed) but for some reason did not begin to use the rod... apparently our fighters are not allowed to burn their hands (according to the regulations)..
    1. 0
      22 December 2023 17: 19
      And here, as always, only half the answer.... It was necessary to unscrew the hot one in order to then tighten the plug blocking the gas outlet hole. For firing rifle grenades from a table-top mortar.
  14. +3
    3 December 2023 13: 17
    Yugoslavia, where until the 1980s, parachute battalions were equipped with this “Gever”
    I wonder why the paratroopers liked them? And for a long time, and I think the elite Yugoslav units had a choice
  15. +3
    3 December 2023 14: 16
    In September 2013, a Syrian rebel appeared in a photo with a Sturmgewehr.

    In 2012, “Syrian rebels” plundered some warehouse where there were 5000 (five thousand!) StG 44 in factory lubricant (see photo).
    Taking into account the fact that the price of a StG 44 for collectors in this condition starts at $30, for a “find” one could get at least $000. But ethno-folism, known to everyone who served in the Soviet army, is the same in Africa. Therefore, the "stormtroopers" spread across Africa. you can say for nothing.
    1. +1
      3 December 2023 17: 38
      Taking into account the fact that the price of a StG 44 for collectors in this condition starts at $30, for a “find” one could get at least $000.
      I am tormented by vague doubts that the one-time appearance on the antique weapons market of even a couple of hundred identical samples will greatly reduce the price per unit.
      1. +4
        3 December 2023 17: 56
        I am tormented by vague doubts that the one-time appearance on the antique weapons market of even a couple of hundred identical samples will greatly reduce the price per unit.

        Of course, if you immediately bring in boxes, prices will fall. Here you are right. But who throws hundreds of such things onto the market? And in Europe the market is very limited, there are few collectors.
        On the other hand, in the United States, about eight million people have gun collections ranging from 8 to 140 units.
        1. +2
          3 December 2023 18: 43
          But who throws hundreds of such things onto the market?
          In this case, the time from the start of sales to the receipt of the final amount will be calculated in thousands of years. A good pension for the average Methuselah!
          1. +3
            3 December 2023 18: 53
            Yes, we are hardly talking about millennia. Taking into account the American market, in twenty years it would be possible to raise real money. Moreover, over time the price for a completely new specimen, from which it has not yet been fired, will only increase.
            1. +2
              3 December 2023 19: 57
              I doubt it too. In gunsmithing antiques this is a matter of "George Washington's hatchet".
              1. +3
                3 December 2023 20: 27
                "George Washington's hatchet"

                Also an option. Any new copy can be “aged” a little and it turns out that it was found nearby in Hitler’s office in the ruins of the Reich Chancellery.
                1. +2
                  3 December 2023 21: 46
                  Also an option. Any new copy can be “aged” a little and it turns out that it was found nearby in Hitler’s office in the ruins of the Reich Chancellery.
                  “He made violins for suckers, but drums for real boys!!!”
  16. 0
    3 December 2023 15: 33
    French troops found them in Algeria, where they had disappeared from Czechoslovakia.

    Gorgeous turnover)
  17. +1
    3 December 2023 17: 52
    It seems that the author himself did not understand what he was saying - like - “the influence of the StG 44 on post-war weapons was very diverse” - what influence? - what kind of diverse? - what do AK and M-16 have to do with it? or - “providing useful automatic fire at real combat distances” - what kind of useful fire is - and what is useless? - and - that the real battle distance - was not real before and no one knew about it? - and - what’s there for a discussion the author formed - about which the author said something, said something, but flatly refused to discuss it? - and what kind of outcome could the discussion have?
    1. -1
      3 December 2023 17: 59
      Quote: Bone1
      sometimes useless

      It happens, it happens... And the discussion goes on after each material. Find the previous one and read it. You have some strange questions, dear...
  18. -2
    3 December 2023 23: 26
    No matter what they say, this is the spitting image of a Kalashnikov assault rifle.
  19. -2
    6 December 2023 11: 10
    And yet, the MP44 is a surrogate, not a very reliable machine; stamping is only on the top inside; the milled box often fails during long-term use, but this is a legend and history. I wasn’t even close to Kalashnikov.
  20. 0
    31 January 2024 12: 31
    a free shutter of the Barnitzke system was used, in which the removal of gas from the barrel near the chamber created resistance to the rear movement of the shutter, which stopped when the bullet exited the barrel

    Ahh, uh... I always thought that a bolt that experiences “resistance to backward movement” by something other than its own mass and the force of the return spring is called semi-free.
  21. 0
    31 January 2024 12: 34
    Quote: Cypa
    No matter what they say, this is the spitting image of a Kalashnikov assault rifle.

    What are you saying? Is it true! Is it okay that the Assault has a skewed bolt, and the Kalash has a twist? And so yes! Muzzle in front, butt in back laughing.
  22. 0
    31 January 2024 12: 58
    As always, the author has interesting material. And the machines clearly passed the “concept viability test.” It is enough to estimate the production volumes of machine guns. The machines, as they say, “went in.” Especially among all kinds of natives. In the early 80s, a Polish journalist came across a book about Kampuchea during the time of Pol Pot (older people probably remember). How this journalist got to this country and even returned is not the point. And from the whole book I remember only the “Kalashnikov law”, which explains the popularity of Kalash in third world countries. The people are underfed, uneducated, and not very intelligent. You need to know how to shoot from a rifle (aim, etc.), but the rifle’s recoil is noticeable for a puny warrior (hello to the Japanese Arisaka), a machine gun is generally too complicated. Well, the Kalash is just right: simple and reliable to use, pour from the belly towards the target without hesitation.