“Yura, we have arrived”: does Russia need a new “Buran”

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“Yura, we have arrived”: does Russia need a new “Buran”


"Yura, we have arrived"


Many people call the Soviet Union a country of catching-up development. They say that Korolev copied the first intercontinental missile from the German V-2, and the Tu-4 strategic bomber was assembled using reverse engineering from the American B-29. There is a grain of truth in this, but there are enough examples when Soviet engineers literally turned the world upside down. Space and nuclear energy are, of course, in first place here.



The final chord of technological superiority was the first and only stories orbital flight of the reusable spacecraft Buran. Let us recall that the Americans sent their Space Shuttle into orbit much earlier - on April 12, 1981. Until the last flight on July 8, 2011, all spacecraft missions were manned.

By the end of the eighties, the Soviet Union was already seriously lagging behind in computer technology, which makes the success of the fully automatic Buran even more surprising. But these were analog, almost tube systems. The Americans initially did not consider the possibility of an unmanned flight, but did not even provide for the possibility of an emergency escape from the Space Shuttle. The Soviet Union had both an unmanned mode and catapults for the entire crew.

"Buran" was more perfect than the American product in everything else. I took 30 tons on board versus 25 from its overseas counterpart. The estimated operating time in orbit for the Soviet spaceplane was 30 days, for the American shuttle - 20 days. The Buran engines allowed it to maneuver on the landing glide path and in orbit. The Space Shuttle's rocket boosters only worked during launch. And enough similar examples can be given. Still, Soviet engineers had a considerable head start in developing the project - the technological capabilities of 1981 and 1988 differed.


Seriously speaking, the 35th anniversary of the first flight of the Russian shuttle should be celebrated quietly and modestly.

Firstly, it was not possible to keep the spaceplane intact - it was crushed by elements of the collapsed assembly and testing building at Baikonur in 2002. The inscription on the fuselage, which appeared shortly before the death of the Buran, is very indicative:

“Yura, we have arrived.”

Secondly, the Russian space program never included a program to build reusable transport space systems. "Buran" died in vain, leaving no heirs. To be fair, the very concept of a returnable spaceplane turned out to be a dead end. In a format like “Buran” and Space Shuttle - absolutely. Both projects siphoned huge amounts of money from the budget, preventing investment in truly effective solutions.


The Space Shuttle in the United States slowed down the rocket engine development program - as a result, they could not even come close to the level of the RD-180. The Americans stopped purchasing engines only in 2021, but the products are still outside the sanctions. If anything happens, they will turn to Roscosmos.

Rational thinking suggests that getting rid of the Energy-Buran program saved the country a lot of money. Even if the Union had not collapsed, the space shuttles would have become an unbearable burden on the state budget.

The common legend about a certain “sum of technology” that emerged as a result of the construction of a spaceship does not stand up to criticism. According to Nathan Eismont, a leading researcher at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the widely advertised Buran heat-protective tiles turned out to be of little use in further practice. Disposable thermal protection lining elements turned out to be cheaper.

The only real profit of the program was the RD-170 rocket engines for the super-heavy Energia. This engineering masterpiece has still not been surpassed.

In fact, the Buran program had only one rational reason for its appearance - the Americans in the 80s were seriously ahead of the Soviet Union in the spaceplane sector, and this could not be tolerated.

"Buran" of the second series


Despite the impasse into which the Space Shuttle and Buran programs have reached, the world needs reusable spacecraft. First of all, because of the low cost of use. Elon Musk's Falcon Heavy offers the launch of one kilogram into orbit for just fifteen hundred dollars. Space Shuttle charged 45 times more for a similar service. At modern prices, of course. The Russian Soyuz is also not a competitor - one kilogram of payload costs five thousand dollars.

As a result, if you need to inexpensively send cargo into space, then you cannot do without a reusable spacecraft. The world's space agencies are working on two shuttle technology branches.

The first is the story of SpaceX with a soft rocket landing of upper stage modules. The technology is beautiful and effective, but not without compromises. Having abandoned parachute landing as being unnecessarily traumatic to the design of the modules, the engineers had to reserve a lot of space for fuel for braking.

The second branch is spaceplanes like Buran and Space Shuttle, but in a different size. A typical representative is the Dream Chaser, which can dock with the ISS and land like an airplane at almost any airfield. All his skills are still in theory. The space truck intends to set off on its first flight in April next year. The plan is to deliver 5,5 tons of cargo to the ISS and dispose of station waste on the way back.

The main advantage of spaceplanes is that there is no need to reserve space for fuel, since the machine lands on the ground like a glider. The main thing is to find a site of appropriate length.


Dream Chaser

But this is all lyrics. The real concern is the X-37B program, probably one of the Pentagon's most classified programs. Realizing that there was no need to carry 20-30-ton loads from Earth to orbit and back, the Americans created the small-sized Space Shuttle.

The car turned out to be universal. On the list of tasks: the covert launch of reconnaissance satellites, the comfortable return of high-tech equipment from orbit, as well as maintenance of the satellite constellation. For example, the X-37B allows remote repair and refueling of spacecraft. This increases the service life and, of course, reduces the cost of operating satellites.

Another probable function of the American shuttle is the return from orbit of information carriers, the volume of which significantly exceeds the capabilities of radio communication channels. Well, a classic - each X-37B can carry up to six nuclear warheads. This is a repeat of the history of the 80s, when the Kremlin was seriously afraid of Space Shuttle orbital dives over the Soviet Union.

Firstly, it made it possible to deliver the first disarming nuclear strike.

Secondly, it dramatically improved the quality of photo and video shooting of strategic objects.

The X-37B and its older brother, the X-37S, could potentially do the same with equal success.


Products of the X-37 series are among the most threatening US spacecraft for Russia

So far, only the Americans and the Chinese have programs to develop reusable spacecraft. Unlike projects 30–40 years ago, the efficiency of the machines is beyond doubt. The number of countries involved in the topic will inevitably grow.

In Russia at the moment there is no program for the development of such equipment. Of course, in domestic space there are already many blind spots, for example, a chronic shortage of satellites of various classes. But the synchronous appearance of the mini-Buran with the Skif medium-orbit communication satellite program would significantly extend the service life and reduce the cost of operating spacecraft. Analogues could provide repair and inspection of products in orbit. And this is only one of dozens of tasks that reusable spacecraft can perform.

The rapid development of the topic around the world and Russia’s lag in it threatens lost benefits from commercial use. And most importantly, an ever-increasing threat to national security.

Realizing their technological advantage in this area, the Americans may think that they have that very “silver bullet” in their hands. This will shake the shaky strategic balance that the world, with half a sin, found not so long ago.
175 comments
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  1. +20
    27 November 2023 04: 25
    "Yura, we have arrived"
    But shall we go further? A question of questions.
    1. +14
      27 November 2023 04: 58
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      But shall we go further? A question of questions.

      With the system of modern management in the space industry, we will mark time - the budget does not allow...
      1. +32
        27 November 2023 05: 33
        By the end of the eighties, the Soviet Union was already seriously lagging behind in computer technology
        The author's message is clear... The USSR was no longer lagging behind, but was still lagging behind, and only in the element base, but not in software, for example.

        The common legend about a certain “sum of technology” that emerged as a result of the construction of a spaceship does not stand up to criticism. According to Nathan Eismont, a leading researcher at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the widely advertised Buran heat-protective tiles turned out to be of little use in further practice. Disposable thermal protection lining elements turned out to be cheaper.
        I seriously doubt that Eismont said such a lie. Well, the failure in the history of Russia, presented by liberals as the “holy nineties,” is not at all considered by the author as a reason for not using the “sum of technologies.” Hello, were RD-170-180 used in Russia somehow?! Is “Energia” itself without “Buran” a “sum of technologies” or what?


        A typical representative is Dream Chaser
        A typically failed Soviet project by the “young state” is Lozino-Lozinsky’s “Spiral”.
        1. +3
          27 November 2023 07: 38
          In Russia at the moment there is no program for the development of such equipment.

          I'm generally confused about these programs, who is going where and why...
          1. +4
            27 November 2023 08: 38
            The Space Shuttle in the United States slowed down the rocket engine development program - as a result, they could not even come close to the level of the RD-180. The Americans stopped purchasing engines only in 2021, but the products are still outside the sanctions. If anything happens, they will turn to Roscosmos.

            Empty hopes. The kind of fuss that had to be raised in order to quickly and quickly cut off the imprudent dependence on Russia in the field of space puts an end to a possible new partnership. Everyone saw the risks, everyone saw the costs, everyone saw the disruptions to plans, everyone saw the reputational damage compared to competitors (SpaceX). Even if Russia offers a new generation of equipment, reusable and even more efficient, no one would then have to run around in the lurch, losing billions, and look for something to urgently replace it with.

            But what these hopes clearly illustrate is a complete lack of faith in the narrative that the Anglo-Saxons have been making plans for centuries to destroy Russia. In the forties, no one would have thought of theorizing how to start selling key dual-use technologies to Hitler.
            1. +6
              27 November 2023 09: 04
              Quote: Commissar Kitten
              In the forties, no one would have thought of theorizing how to start selling key dual-use technologies to Hitler.

              Khe khe.

              There would be something to sell. Hitler himself sold key dual-use technologies (more precisely, current weapons).

              Resources, yes, were sold without problems. This is widely known.
              1. +3
                27 November 2023 09: 12
                Well, in the sense of after the treacherous attack, when Hitler’s intentions no longer raised questions.
                1. +5
                  27 November 2023 23: 18
                  The Americans initially did not consider the possibility of an unmanned flight, but did not even provide for the possibility of an emergency escape from the Space Shuttle.
                  Not certainly in that way. During the launch and at low altitudes, indeed, there was no rescue system, but at high altitudes it was possible to leave the Shuttle:
                  On the left side, in the cockpit area, a hatch opened and a telescopic rod extended out of it. They left the Shuttle by parachute: a ring with a halyard (attached to the astronaut) slid along the retractable rod, moving it away from the Shuttle body. Next is the individual parachute system.
                  Our "Buran", as stated in the article, had catapults.
                  The Buran engines allowed it to maneuver on the landing glide path and in orbit.
                  Few places write, but the Buran also had jet engines for flight in the atmosphere, so it could approach the airfield not as a glider, but as an airplane. They were not installed on the first Buran, but their installation was planned in the future. If you look at the version of the Buran that ours used to practice the flight skills of future pilots of this descent vehicle, then of the four air-breathing engines that were on it, the top two fit very well into the body - this is the standard place for the engines. The two engines on the sides were installed only to practice skills; they were not intended for space flight.

                  PS
                  There was, but somewhere the photo of the Buran computer was lost. sad . It is the size of a suitcase and weighs just over 60 kg. And these brains were quite enough for Buran to calculate the landing of a glider with a launch weight of about a hundred tons.
                  1. +4
                    28 November 2023 12: 01
                    "...the success of the fully automatic Buran. But these were analog, almost tube systems." The author of the article is not strong in electronic technology in general, but in Soviet technology in particular? The Buran's automation was digital, assembled on Soviet microcircuits and microprocessors. The author will probably be surprised that modern neural systems are a development of analog computers (60-70) of the last century? Not digital. The article does not mention that the Energia rocket was also a “robot” and was launched automatically. "Buran" was the second in line to be launched by "Energia", the first to launch was the mass-dimensional mockup (allegedly?) of the combat orbital station "Skif". This station was able to destroy not only the Shuttle, but also any US spacecraft. The X37 USA is very similar to the BORs, externally and functionally, launched by the USSR in the 70s.
        2. +3
          27 November 2023 09: 03
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Well, the failure in the history of Russia, presented by liberals as the “holy nineties,” is not at all considered by the author as a reason for not using the “sum of technologies.” Hello, were RD-170-180 used in Russia somehow?!

          RN Zenit and related projects, such as Sea Launch (the brainchild of the bloody nineties, fortunately successfully shot down in the process of getting up from its knees).
          1. +2
            27 November 2023 12: 14
            Quote: Commissar Kitten
            Sea Launch (a brainchild of the bloody nineties, fortunately successfully shot while getting up from his knees)

            And I always liked the idea of ​​a “sea launch”. Even the USSR did not have a normal cosmodrome, and especially not Russia. And it won’t happen until we return the large South Kuril Islands.
            1. +3
              27 November 2023 19: 37
              Quote: DenVB
              Quote: Commissar Kitten
              Sea Launch (a brainchild of the bloody nineties, fortunately successfully shot while getting up from his knees)

              And I always liked the idea of ​​a “sea launch”. Even the USSR did not have a normal cosmodrome, and especially not Russia. And it won't be until we return the large South Kuril Islands.

              belay
              1. +3
                28 November 2023 07: 59
                until we return the large South Kuril Islands.
                I immediately realized that we were talking about Hokaido, where our Ainu went - the original Russian land! lol
      2. +1
        27 November 2023 09: 39
        Is it the budget...?"""""""""""""""
    2. +12
      27 November 2023 06: 24
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      "Yura, we have arrived"
      But shall we go further? A question of questions.

      And you need to look at the harnessing friends. Abramovich and Usmanov and the Kovalchuks and Rotenbergs have already arrived. Why should they go somewhere? Their friend provided communism. And big officials live no worse!
    3. +9
      27 November 2023 09: 53
      judging by the fact that higher education is now considered evil, the issue is resolved: we won’t go
      1. +14
        27 November 2023 10: 09
        Quote: 224VP_MO_RF
        judging by the fact that higher education is now considered evil

        Previously, higher education depended entirely on the presence of intelligence, but now it is increasingly dependent on money.
        1. +3
          28 November 2023 09: 02
          Well, forward to Russia, which we have lost.
          1. 0
            18 February 2024 08: 29
            Well then - forward to Russia, which we have lost

            Well, where we do not...
  2. +8
    27 November 2023 04: 33
    To implement such programs, it is necessary to have a competitive space agency. Roscosmos, apparently, after Rogozin, is not capable of this. The most they can do is eat up budget funds and explain that they are not funded enough.
    1. +3
      27 November 2023 06: 31
      Quote from Eugene Zaboy
      Roscosmos, apparently, after Rogozin, is not capable of this.

      And before Rogozin, that means he was capable? If it weren’t for Rogozin, the result would have been the same, if not worse!
      1. +6
        27 November 2023 09: 27
        Quote: Stas157
        And before Rogozin, that means he was capable? If it weren’t for Rogozin, the result would have been the same, if not worse!


        What positive things happened from having him? A launch to Mars is a disaster, a launch to the Moon is a disaster, there wasn’t even a reconnaissance constellation of satellites for the Northern Military District. You can draw beautiful pictures for much less.
        1. +10
          27 November 2023 10: 19
          Quote from Eugene Zaboy
          What positive things happened from having him?

          Absolutely nothing. What did you want from a journalist? But this is the current trend - to give high positions not to professionals, but to people with other characteristics (more important for the authorities). Well, if they hadn’t appointed a journalist, they would have appointed some furniture maker! There would definitely be no breakthroughs due to such a personnel policy. By the way, where is Stoolkin now? Is he raising aviation?
          1. +8
            27 November 2023 12: 53
            When such super-important posts are given to such “Rogozins”, it is assumed that next to them there will be professionals who will take the topic away and the devoted wedding journalist will seem to be on the job. In reality, it turns out that he is dragging even more dense “space builders”, but who are devoted already for him personally, but the professionals are kicked out and they go to Musk to “make trampolines for him.” That’s how we got to the point of “why the hell do we need Buran and Yura, we’ve screwed everything up”!
            Boots should be made by a shoemaker, and pies should be made by a piemaker, that’s what I was taught at school!
        2. +4
          27 November 2023 18: 56
          Quote from Eugene Zaboy
          What positive things happened from having him? Launch to Mars is a disaster, launch to the Moon is a disaster

          The launch to Mars was in 2016, Rogozin headed Roscosmos in 2018. The launch to the Moon took place after Rogozin left, you can’t do it again. But the rocket fall stopped under Rogozin. Although how much of this is his merit is difficult to understand.
        3. +1
          29 November 2023 10: 34
          The fiercest royal wolf, as always, has nothing to do with it)))) how they stole in the East, I also don’t know, I didn’t see anything
    2. -3
      27 November 2023 12: 36
      What other space agency is capable? NASA? All modern launch vehicles in the USA are now private
      1. +2
        27 November 2023 13: 40
        NASA is a civilian organization engaged in purely peaceful developments. Study of solar system bodies, development of manned space exploration, development of communication technologies, etc.
        The military and their specialists are sometimes hired, even by entire departments, in cases where it is necessary to solve a complex problem of developing or launching something for the military.
        So NASA sometimes participates in military projects, but as a third-party contractor - its own projects, which are overwhelmingly civilian.
        One of the things they did right was to divide space into military and civilian sectors. So that the decisions and regulations of some do not interfere with others.
        The military relies only on its own (i.e., state budget), does not make a profit, all their development remains purely for personal use. Strict standards for the reliability of equipment, maintaining secrecy and the ability to launch in any conditions. But the sheer volume of objects is much lower and does not require long-distance communication centers, since all activity is limited to near-Earth space (until people start building military and civilian colonies on other bodies of the solar system, the military will not fly further than geostationary orbit), then their infrastructure can be less, which means it may have its own.
        The civil agency works openly and actively with supporters, contractors and investors. In addition to its own state financing, it can engage in business for its own profit. Can perform a lot of work on launching and monitoring devices of third-party customers (private individuals or governments of other countries). He openly publishes his activities and uses them for advertising purposes. At the same time, the devices themselves are not only larger in number, but also in range. It is civilian agencies that can engage in entire branches of research that no one else is doing - for example, the exploration of other planets using orbiters or landers. They publish the data of their research openly, and not like the military that they keep the data obtained. And at the same time the need to launch and maintain devices at enormous, interplanetary distances.

        Here we have the Strategic Missile Forces. They have experience and competence in working with rockets and launching anything into orbit. So reorganize Roscosmos. Let those branches and sections that work exclusively for the defense industry be subordinated to the Strategic Missile Forces.
        And Roscosmos will leave only civilian and dual-use industries.
        Even if an army needs its own satellites or its own communications, then they themselves develop it, launch it themselves and manage it themselves. And now in this chain, in the middle, there is an open company, Roscosmos, whose work is limited to the fact that it is built into this network.

        Let Roscosmos engage only in civilian activities. They are engaged in launching satellites for conventional communications or broadcasting. Navigation (even in the USA, their GPS satellites have long been launched mainly by NASA, because GPS has long been used not only by the military). They are engaged in space exploration and manned astronautics. And everything for the military will be handed over to the military themselves.
        They already have a smaller budget than NASA, but by leaving themselves only peaceful tasks, this budget will increase for each individual project being developed. Since the entire military section will now be owned by the military with their budget.
        Transfer to the military the developments and enterprises for the production of the R-7 family, with the possibility of producing Angara family missiles there. So that they create their own media. Let Roscosmos concentrate on the Angara to make it the company’s new workhorse. And when it comes into operation, begin to actively exploit it in order to gain experience and understanding of the next generation launch vehicle.
        And now we make a division here. Let the "angara" be the last family of launch vehicles in Russia, which is common to the Army and Roscosmos. And based on the experience of operating the Angara, and based on each of their own infrastructure, military and civilians will then create their own launch vehicles that meet their own requirements. At the same time, nothing prevents them from exchanging with each other if necessary.

        Let's say the civilian Roscosmos creates a system consisting of one super-heavy launch vehicle for launching large payloads into space (for example, for flights to the Moon) and a medium launch vehicle for launching manned missions without additional ones. equipment into space (for example, just launching to an earth orbital station, some kind of Mir-2). And the military has its own heavy launch vehicle, which they use to launch heavy military satellites into orbit or military station modules. As well as its own light-medium launch vehicle, which is designed for the urgent launch of reconnaissance vehicles weighing up to 5 tons to any necessary LEO.
        And now Roscosmos plans to use its super-heavy rocket to send an expedition to the Moon. But before that, they want to send a residential module and part of the cargo for the expedition to the surface of the Moon, and so as not to waste their expensive superheavy on this. they borrow 1-2 heavy missiles from the military to send cargo on it. Conversely, the military has built a small orbital military station, but civilian medium launch vehicles send them into orbit, since they do not have their own spacecraft.
        And then, this interaction scheme can be made even better, this is just an example thought up from my head on the fly.
        The point is still simple - make the agency a civil organization. And everything military should be placed under the direct control of the military. One of the reasons for NASA's success is that they do not waste resources on military projects (which can be much more expensive than civilian ones) and do not suffer from the restrictions that surround the military sector.
        The US military is fine, they have everything of their own and they only sometimes cooperate with NASA. And NASA is doing well, they also only sometimes cooperate with the military. The military is happy that they have complete control over the country's space security. We are happy that we can safely publish our achievements and results and use this to attract investment.
        1. 0
          27 November 2023 19: 31
          Everything stems from a lag in “competencies”. Production capacity and financial power differ and depend on the educational level.
        2. 0
          4 December 2023 14: 22
          You can immediately see the specialist: give the Hangar to Roscosmos. Yes, Angara is still alive only thanks to the military. If it is made purely commercial, it will burn out immediately.
          And today it is almost impossible to divide space into civil and military. Is GPS civil or military? Remote sensing satellites? Launch vehicles? “Inspector” satellites? StarLink - "affordable Internet"? By the way, the famous Hubble is a slightly stripped-down military satellite (a couple more similar telescopes are stored in the warehouses of NRO - space reconnaissance).
    3. -4
      28 November 2023 22: 28
      Quote from Eugene Zaboy
      To implement such programs, it is necessary to have a competitive space agency.

      If Buran were competitive, he would fly. The project is certainly complex and interesting. But senseless (The Space Shuttle program has a stated goal of saving. Ours came up with the idea that they needed to steal stations and bomb orbitally. Ok, they made Energia-Buran. Only he had nothing to steal in space, bombing was prohibited by treaty, and they completely forgot about saving, like later We will do it in new versions of Energy).
      So, how much do they spend there, taking into account all of NASA and Roscosmos? Their budgets differ by more than 20 times. Although I will assume that it is difficult to compare budgets due to different approaches and military programs (which are not advertised here, but in the USA they go more to the Air Force).
  3. +27
    27 November 2023 04: 44
    Not quite the right way to pose the question. Isn’t it necessary, but can we do it? It will be right. The answer is, based on current realities, no, we cannot.
    Well, even if you ask the question “is it necessary?” No, I don’t need it now. I don’t need it at all, in general, of course I need it, but I don’t need it now. Now there are thousands of other more important things to do - we need to relearn how to make civil aircraft, start producing bearings at least at the level of 10% of the level of the RSFSR, restore the cattle herd that was slaughtered over 32 years, etc. ad infinitum. I’m not even talking about military affairs; no matter where you throw a wedge, there’s a wedge everywhere.
    In space, you really need to have a working satellite constellation. And ideally, it would be nice to have your own orbital station after the death of the ISS.
  4. +18
    27 November 2023 05: 07
    The rapid development of the topic around the world and Russia’s lag in it threatens lost benefits from commercial use. And most importantly, an ever-increasing threat to national security.

    The rapid development of the space industry in commercial terms will not contribute to the emergence of new specialists, new Korolevs. And the threat to national security lies in the rotten position of the state when any business is subjected FIRST to the analysis of making a profit. Traders cannot advance and develop science. The hucksters have not yet invented anything new except to buy cheaper and sell more expensive.
    And there is no need to look for nobility and lofty ideas in this activity, as in the symbols of some kind of unity of the nation built by the EBN center.
    * * *
    With this attitude (due to the poverty of the treasury), we are assigned a place in the margins. The development paths are chosen incorrectly and the implementation of development paths is appropriate - “Trishkin caftan”.
    1. -10
      27 November 2023 05: 41
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Traders cannot advance and develop science. The hucksters have not yet invented anything new except to buy cheaper and sell more expensive.


      It’s difficult to agree with your statement after the emergence of the phenomenon of Elon Musk and his competitors. It is the lack of people capable of trading ideas and developments in Roscosmos that is hindering the development of astronautics in Russia. Roscosmos, which for decades had a huge package of advanced technologies and developments, was unable to introduce them into the national economy in a timely manner, much less make a profit, unlike NASA. Not to mention Elon Musk. This is despite the crazy amounts of funding during the Soviet era. The helplessness of the leadership of Roscosmos is simply surprising, to say the least. It was the lack of talented traders, at the head of Roscosmos, that led to the lag of the Russian space industry.
      1. +2
        27 November 2023 06: 55
        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
        Roscosmos, which for decades had a huge package of advanced technologies and developments, was unable to introduce them into the national economy in a timely manner, much less make a profit, unlike NASA. Not to mention Elon Musk. This is despite the crazy amounts of funding during the Soviet era.

        And the Molniya communication satellites, Meteor weather satellites, and COSPAS system satellites spontaneously originated, right?
        1. +10
          27 November 2023 09: 55
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          And the Molniya communication satellites, Meteor weather satellites, and COSPAS system satellites spontaneously originated, right?


          Quote: Aviator_
          For more than 30 years now they have been the only ones in charge; the OBKhSS used to deal with them, but now they have turned around.



          What did this give to the state, or ordinary citizens? Elon Musk, thanks to his participation in space programs, created Tesla and filled the whole world with it, created Starlink and sells Internet services around the world. Where are the results of Roscosmos from financing the budget of the huge USSR measured in percentages? They simply wasted this huge amount of money without giving anything to the industry. From the series "Dunno on the Moon". This entire program was started to stimulate industrial development through the introduction of advanced developments. Maybe they were introduced by the Americans, the Japanese, but not by Russian enterprises. Where has all this gone? Even the Swedes were able to create SAAB and VOLVO based on aircraft manufacturing, and Russia, the largest space power, received nothing from Roscosmos except incredible expenses. The same Roscosmos could have received huge profits from the implementation of its developments, but it turned out to be insolvent. They are simply unable to do this. They don’t know how, they don’t have enough imagination to earn money from excess government funding. Indeed, why, if money is already given.
          1. -4
            27 November 2023 11: 23
            Quote from Eugene Zaboy
            and Russia, the largest space power, received nothing from Roscosmos except incredible expenses.

            Oh, so you’re not writing about the USSR? So why are you dragging it in then?
            1. -1
              27 November 2023 13: 59
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Oh, so you’re not writing about the USSR? So why are you dragging it in then?


              Does it matter?
              The collapse of the USSR showed who supported Roscosmos. As soon as the USSR collapsed, all the former Soviet republics began to demand money for cooperation in space programs; they themselves could not, or did not want to, spend money on anything. Most likely the same thing happened under the USSR. The unsubsidized republics could be counted on the fingers of one hand. And it’s difficult to name those who financed space, except for Russia. Therefore, since after 1991 there was only one participant in the development of space programs, I am unlikely to be mistaken in my expressions.
              1. -2
                29 November 2023 13: 08
                Quote from Eugene Zaboy
                The unsubsidized republics could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

                There is no need to write about what you don’t know.
          2. 0
            27 November 2023 22: 02
            Quote from Eugene Zaboy
            They don’t know how, they don’t have enough imagination to earn money from excess government funding.
            On excess? Seriously? Compare the cost of Meteor and KH-11. They cost the same amount of billions (yes - KH is much cooler, but the price of Meteor is given with ground and launch, and not just satellite carcasses). But there are rubles, and KH is in dollars. The difference is 80-odd times.
      2. +6
        27 November 2023 08: 00
        It is the lack of talented traders that
        For more than 30 years now they have been the only ones in charge; the OBKhSS used to deal with them, but now they have turned around.
      3. +2
        27 November 2023 08: 51
        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
        It is the lack of people capable of trading ideas and developments in Roscosmos that is hindering the development of astronautics in Russia

        Private owners are needed) Gazprom is quite developing a communication system that is sold and available to all consumers (and not the conditional secretaries of regional committees and generals of the Strategic Missile Forces).
      4. +20
        27 November 2023 09: 28
        We could use a couple of these Muskov Ilonovs
        He is an engineer by profession. General designer of SpaceX. A hell of a billionaire.
        But this is not an ounce of the major for whom dad laid out the carpet. As he himself says, he couldn’t rent an apartment at the beginning of his career; he slept in the office. And he made money without buying and selling, as is our custom, but with his brains he created new things.
        Unlike our billionaires, according to the order - the tower is pumping - billions are dripping - everything is seized and bought - children in London.
        1. +3
          27 November 2023 19: 44
          Quote: ugol2
          We could use a couple of these Muskov Ilonovs
          He is an engineer by profession. General designer of SpaceX. A hell of a billionaire.
          But this is not an ounce of the major for whom dad laid out the carpet. As he himself says, he couldn’t rent an apartment at the beginning of his career; he slept in the office. And he made money without buying and selling, as is our custom, but with his brains he created new things.
          Unlike our billionaires, according to the order - the tower is pumping - billions are dripping - everything is seized and bought - children in London.

          But how much official and unofficial trolling we had against Musk, although even then certain prospects were obvious in terms of implementing his ideas and Musk’s talent as an excellent organizer and businessman...
        2. 0
          28 November 2023 22: 12
          Quote: ugol2
          We could use a couple of these Muskov Ilonovs

          Elon is certainly an icon, but not by him alone. And this means that he “appeared” was the merit not only of mom and dad, but also of certain conditions. Do you know the joke that in the Russian Federation Elon would not have made Tesla/SpaceX because he had not yet served time for PayPal? That’s it, and this is “extreme”, so to speak. And you try with some idea - again, using Elon’s example, it is clear that anyone, since the person owns companies in very different fields, will turn to someone for money for a company in the Russian Federation. This is mildly difficult, even if this idea has already been tested by you in business and is profitable.
        3. +2
          29 November 2023 13: 17
          Quote: ugol2
          As he himself says, he couldn’t rent an apartment at the beginning of his career; he slept in the office.

          Yeah, believe more fairy tales...
          Musk is from a very rich family, owners of mines.
          1. 0
            5 December 2023 17: 09
            No, you are wrong, Erron Musk (Musk's father) is not the owner of the mines, but he worked there as an engineer. And yes, he made millions there. If it’s surprising to you that an engineer can earn millions while working in emerald mines, then you might be officially surprised. This is South Africa, baby! Here they did not receive such millions.
            Musk is not from a poor family, of course, but to call them rich by US standards is not much to say. There are many people here whose wealth amounts to millions.
            He generally has a difficult relationship with his parents; he doesn’t really like his father at all, blaming him for all possible sins.
            And Musk already earned his fortune himself; his dad didn’t buy him a share in Paypal for the first sale, and then his parents are not among his investors (their fortune is not particularly large at all for the billions that Musk needs for his toys).
            In the West, the strategy of keeping your son on constant feeding is not particularly welcome - giving and paying for him a good education is one thing, but let him earn his son’s money on Rolls-Royces and fashion models on a personal yacht.
            This is the right approach, IMHO.
      5. 0
        4 December 2023 14: 28
        There were tons of traders there. They sold out all the achievements of Soviet cosmonautics, from ideas to finished engines. But for some reason this did not lead to the flourishing of Russian cosmonautics. Can't guess why?
  5. +18
    27 November 2023 05: 40
    Well, unfortunately, the domestic space industry is in a steep tailspin, thanks to trampoline managers. And in principle, the questions disappeared by themselves when the salaries of an engineer at Roscosmos were published in the region of 37 thousand rubles. And of course, eternal optimizations, they got rid of many personnel, entire research institutes were closed. But we learned how to work on Twitter and troll Elon Musk, steal money during the construction of the Vostochny Cosmodrome, and the actress flew into space, but you must agree that this is not what we expected from Roscosmos.....
    1. +9
      27 November 2023 06: 45
      Quote from turembo
      when they published the salaries of an engineer at Roscosmos in the region of 37 thousand.

      Guest workers and migrants earn more! Apparently they made a bet on them judging by their salaries. There are millions of them and many do not speak Russian.
  6. +11
    27 November 2023 05: 48
    programs "Energy" - "Buran"


    Myasishchev VM-T Atlant transports the fuel tank of the Energia launch vehicle

    When I see such photos, I am filled with pride for the country. Unfortunately, now we even buy threads and nails abroad
    1. +15
      27 November 2023 07: 00
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Unfortunately, now we even buy threads and nails abroad

      Hammers, axes, screwdrivers, screws, drills, cutters... Even this is Chinese! And if you take a power tool, then at best there are only Russian nameplates on Chinese OEM products.

      Who would have imagined in the USSR that the country would slide to this level? But if earlier, under the young Putin, although wages were much lower in China, now they have reached the point where the Chinese have surpassed them in this too!
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  10. -12
    27 November 2023 06: 26
    He writes bullshit. I’m sure he writes differently about a reusable mask. Praises.
    My opinion . Buran needs to be revived. Only almost in its original form. Otherwise (knowing these effective managers) they will start pushing all sorts of fashionable stuff and it won’t fly. Our engines for correction in space are in perfect order, we have experience in gripping hands, and the loading compartment is large. Even just one like this will fly into space and there will be a rustle in the west.
    1. +2
      27 November 2023 07: 15
      Quote: Kyrs
      He writes bullshit. I’m sure he writes differently about a reusable mask. Praises.

      Yes Yes. Especially about the gigantic seven-year lag behind America! They say that the Soviet Buran, released seven years later, is the result of a new technological level. What would he say about modern times?
    2. +6
      27 November 2023 08: 18
      Buran needs to be revived
      .
      Buran does not need to be revived. This is an outdated project created in response to the threat of military use of the Shuttle. By the way: it won’t be possible to “revive” it. The Russian Federation cannot launch into production an aircraft that was made in the USSR (Il-114) and even flies. Where is it with Buran? Another question is whether it is necessary to create reusable systems? Yes need. With a “new filling”, because not only are they not making the old one, but there are no more factories that made it.
    3. +1
      27 November 2023 16: 58
      yes, of course, to revive, only there is a problem - for EVERY launch of Buran you need a NEW ROCKET (ENERGY rocket) which after launch burned up in the atmosphere.
  11. +7
    27 November 2023 06: 47
    It can be revived, you just have to remember why the Shuttle was originally invented. To remove our Almaz stations from orbit.
    What will Buran do? Dragging away the ISS? wink
    1. 0
      27 November 2023 13: 34
      To remove our Almaz stations from orbit.
      Military satellites have self-destruct charges on board, according to unverified data laughing .
      1. 0
        27 November 2023 19: 41
        To remove our Almaz stations from orbit.
        Military satellites have self-destruct charges on board, according to unverified data laughing.

        Now yes. Therefore, there is no point in Buran at all. So that it would be spectacularly torn apart there, in orbit, if only.

        We need to rely on a satellite constellation. Communications, navigation, reconnaissance. Even the station is not particularly needed.

        In civil space, it makes sense to put a large deep space and exoplanet telescope into orbit and continue to study the AMS planets. Especially Venus. There may be surprises there. wink
  12. +15
    27 November 2023 07: 07
    Russia is no longer just lagging behind in space, it is simply collapsing. Now we’re not even talking about reusable systems, we are in regular launches in one known place, apparently there is nothing to put into orbit, and if there is anything, it turns out there is nothing. The United States carried out 87 launches, 84 of which were successful. China 64 launches, Russia 22 launches. The USA and China have various scientific missions, but for us last year you’ve been cooking with butter, this year the Moon is 25, soft-boiled on the Moon. Once a welding equipment adjuster came to us from Moscow to start up automatic welding machines, it turned out that he had previously worked for Roscosmos, and when asked, why did he leave? But because the salary is a penny and a mess in production, and he went to the brewery! The salary there was higher and the conditions were better than in Roscosmos. Like this...
  13. +5
    27 November 2023 07: 57
    According to Nathan Eismont, leading researcher at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences,
    In our office, aging heads of departments and departments are appointed leading scientific employees, but they are removed from leadership positions due to their age. It seems that IKIRAN has the same tradition. That's what I mean. that his statement is, to put it mildly, controversial.
  14. 0
    27 November 2023 07: 59
    I am sure that in time we will succeed!
    1. +10
      27 November 2023 08: 06
      Yeah! I thought so too, thirty-five years ago.
    2. +6
      27 November 2023 08: 34
      in time we will succeed

      Yeah, of course, Gref and his AI will “help” us
  15. +3
    27 November 2023 08: 04
    The author does not understand the topic: “it was not possible to keep the spaceplane intact - it was crushed by elements of the collapsed assembly and testing building at Baikonur in 2002. The inscription on the fuselage that appeared shortly before the death of Buran is very indicative: “Yura, we have arrived” ".
    Buran really died in 2002, but the inscription appeared in 2021. And not on the Buran, but on the Buran.
  16. +12
    27 November 2023 08: 13
    IMHO, the point is not “Buran”, the point is that there is no articulated goal in the field of space in Russia.

    Let's take the damned bourgeoisie with their Apollo program. Clear goals, clear deadlines (though not always achievable). At the same time, the goal was political - to overtake the USSR and show that the point is not that socialism is cooler than capitalism, as Comrade Khrushchev declared after our successes. Kennedy proposed not to catch up with the USSR, but to immediately set a more distant goal - landing on the Moon. The goal was achieved, the USSR did not catch up in this regard and therefore several US flights were cancelled.

    What is our purpose in space?

    I'm not talking about specific commercial and military tasks, everything is clear here. But for these tasks you don’t need either Buran, or a flight to the Moon, or even your own station in orbit.

    Do we want to prove that we are an advanced scientific and technological power? To whom and why?

    However, if this is so, then that’s not bad either, let’s become an advanced power, I’m all for it. Just looking at the surrounding reality, one does not see any efforts in this direction - neither from governments, nor from the people, nor from those who have real money.

    Therefore, by and large, Buran, a flight to the Moon or Mars do not threaten us - they are simply of no use.

    Although, of course, I would like to.
  17. +8
    27 November 2023 08: 17
    What kind of “Buran” is it, we should repeat “Spiral” and build on it
  18. +9
    27 November 2023 08: 36
    There was the Spiral project, MIG-105.11 aircraft were tested. This direction was pushed aside and they rushed to catch up with the United States, creating "Buran". Personnel, ideas, production capacity - everything was there. But the devils in the snuff box appeared: the tagged humpback, a big fan of drinking and singing Kalinka-Malinka... The country was ruined, science and industry were ruined, the cadres grew old and died... The new generation of trampoline talkers is going in a completely different direction and is using the funds they receive differently ...
  19. +5
    27 November 2023 09: 46
    and the Tu-4 strategic bomber was assembled using reverse engineering from the American B-29. There is a grain of truth in this,


    Author, well, with such a low level of education, you can’t take on such articles. It’s only for a stupid layman that everything is simple, what’s up, he looked and made exactly the same thing. Any aviation specialist will tell you that complete copying is a very difficult task. It is many times easier to inspect a sample and study it, to develop and build your own aircraft, and much better. It was by completely copying the B-29 that the Americans demonstrated the power of the USSR economy.

    By the way, isn't Dream Chaser ripped off from Epic?
    1. +1
      27 November 2023 13: 18
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      and the Tu-4 strategic bomber was assembled using reverse engineering from the American B-29. There is a grain of truth in this,


      Author, well, with such a low level of education, you can’t take on such articles. It’s only for a stupid layman that everything is simple, what’s up, he looked and made exactly the same thing. Any aviation specialist will tell you that complete copying is a very difficult task. It is many times easier to inspect a sample and study it, to develop and build your own aircraft, and much better. It was by completely copying the B-29 that the Americans demonstrated the power of the USSR economy.

      By the way, isn't Dream Chaser ripped off from Epic?

      What you say is true, but Stalin gave the order to build a copy.
      1. +1
        27 November 2023 16: 24
        What you say is true, but Stalin gave the order to build a copy.


        That is why he gave such an order, to demonstrate to the United States the capabilities of the USSR economy.
        1. +2
          27 November 2023 18: 34
          That is why he gave such an order, to demonstrate to the United States the capabilities of the USSR economy.
          Not only a demonstration of the economy, first of all, a spent nuclear weapons carrier was needed, and Tupolev would have taken no one knows how long to complete his project.
          1. 0
            27 November 2023 20: 16
            Not only a demonstration of the economy, first of all, a spent nuclear weapons carrier was needed, and Tupolev would have taken no one knows how long to complete his project.


            Do you have any idea what it means to put into production “used media” that was made in the inch system. When to produce it you need to create everything from scratch, starting with rivets and rolled duralumin of the required thickness.
            At the same time, one could only guess about most technological processes.
            At your leisure, be curious about how much trouble there was with the adaptation of the DS-3 to the Li-2.
            At the same time having a complete set of documentation. And the plane, as expected, turned out worse, because it was built from domestic, metrically standardized materials and it was not always possible to meet the standard, therefore, to ensure strength, they always chose “a little more.”
            1. +2
              27 November 2023 22: 07
              At your leisure, be curious about how much trouble there was with the adaptation of the DS-3 to the Li-2.
              For me this is not leisure, but my main job. The main thing that was done when purchasing the DS-3 was the template-based method of its production and the recalculation of the entire aircraft to our strength standards, which was labor-intensive, but necessary. And Tupolev then went to the sharashka precisely because he did not complete the task during a business trip abroad, but did not forget himself, his beloved. I brought the refrigerator. After the war, in mid-1945, Tupolev began making his “project 64”, but on Joseph’s orders he began to adapt the B-29 to our production (rather, our production for this machine). The result was a Tu-4, a very good aircraft in its class. By the way, about direct copying - as we now know, our first atomic bomb RDS-1 was a copy of the American one. We made 11 pieces, although there were proposals for its significant improvement, but this was realized later, and our entire RDS-4 (“Tatyana”) went into a large series. It was blown up during military exercises at the Totsky training ground in 1954.
              1. 0
                28 November 2023 19: 23
                For me this is not leisure, but my main job.


                Curious and collect gossip? Sorry, but you somehow have little understanding of aircraft production.
                1. 0
                  29 November 2023 17: 54
                  Curious and collect gossip?
                  I understand that retired pilots have an extremely high opinion of their engineering education. However, Professor Chizhov taught us a course on aircraft strength at FALT MIPT very thoroughly. With examples from history. I didn’t post “gossip” at all.
                  1. 0
                    3 December 2023 12: 55
                    I understand that retired pilots have an extremely high opinion of their engineering education. However, Professor Chizhov taught us a course on aircraft strength at FALT MIPT very thoroughly. With examples from history. I didn’t post “gossip” at all.


                    Just because he read it doesn’t mean everyone understood. Moreover, he could hardly say that copying the B-29 was easier than creating a new aircraft.
                    1. 0
                      3 December 2023 13: 54
                      Okay, let's go. The same Shavrov writes that in addition to adopting a spent nuclear weapons carrier into service, it was important not to adapt the B-29 to our industry, but to raise our industry to the level of the B-29. And it was a success. So, for example, there was a commander of firing installations who could single-handedly direct all gun barrels remotely at the target. We've never had anything like this before. And there are a lot of these, pressurized cabins, etc. Your article on Zen about the combat use of turntables across the river was interesting to read. But they didn’t take her to VO? drinks
                      1. +1
                        3 December 2023 14: 12
                        Okay, let's go. The same Shavrov writes that in addition to adopting a spent nuclear weapon carrier, it was important not to adapt the B-29 to our industry, but to raise our industry to the level of the B-29. And it was a success. So, for example, there was a commander of firing installations who could single-handedly direct all gun barrels remotely at the target. We've never had anything like this before. And there are a lot of these, pressurized cabins, etc.


                        So no one denies this. One of the goals was to move away from wartime production. And a lot of things were later used on other aircraft, especially in terms of electronic equipment.

                        Your article on Zen about the combat use of turntables across the river was interesting to read. But they didn’t take her to VO?


                        But I didn’t offer it. In general, I have Zen so that in disputes I do not print the same thing over and over again, but simply take and copy.
  20. -4
    27 November 2023 10: 17
    As I have written many times, no one needs anything like this. In any case, chemical astronautics is a complete dead end, and its “development” is simply a laundering of budget funds.
    One launch of Falcon 9 costs a client $67 million, and Falcon Heavy costs $97 million. There is also the possibility of “rocket sharing” - ordering the launch of a payload into orbit together with other clients. Price - $6,5 thousand per 1 kg of cargo on Falcon 9.

    Fresh prices for 2023, “achieved” because Roscosmos is under sanctions. And they are so low because the State Department is again mercilessly sponsoring Musk, taking on most of the cost per kilogram. The real cost of launching and returning one kilogram is around 40 thousand dollars in general. “Dreams” (actually Musk’s marketing) about 100 bucks per 1 kg are marketing.
    The chemical propulsion cannot be made cheaper) By the very principle of operation. Until ultralyddite or anameson (substances with superluminal speed of expiration) are invented, astronautics actually does not exist in our country.
    Only launches of communication and surveillance satellites are profitable. Everything else costs really crazy money, but that’s not even the main thing. The question is that there is NOTHING TO DO in space. Why throw away billions of simply earned rubles? For "science"? Which one? Study the mineralogy of space? Interesting. But why?
    Satisfy the curiosity of mineral specialists? Spectrometry already provides a wealth of data on the composition of space debris. And these data say that everything around is the same as on Earth. Just delivering a handful of sand from the asteroid belt costs the equivalent of developing a rare earth deposit on earth in ten years. Isn't sand a little expensive?) Biologists? What we really lack is alien infection. And so on.
    If our astronautics were cheap, it would make sense to rummage around the System. But straining all the forces of civilization out of boredom... A completely pointless activity.
    1. +1
      27 November 2023 13: 23
      Quote: Mikhail3
      As I have written many times, no one needs anything like this. In any case, chemical astronautics is a complete dead end, and its “development” is simply a laundering of budget funds.
      One launch of Falcon 9 costs a client $67 million, and Falcon Heavy costs $97 million. There is also the possibility of “rocket sharing” - ordering the launch of a payload into orbit together with other clients. Price - $6,5 thousand per 1 kg of cargo on Falcon 9.

      Fresh prices for 2023, “achieved” because Roscosmos is under sanctions. And they are so low because the State Department is again mercilessly sponsoring Musk, taking on most of the cost per kilogram. The real cost of launching and returning one kilogram is around 40 thousand dollars in general. “Dreams” (actually Musk’s marketing) about 100 bucks per 1 kg are marketing.
      The chemical propulsion cannot be made cheaper) By the very principle of operation. Until ultralyddite or anameson (substances with superluminal speed of expiration) are invented, astronautics actually does not exist in our country.
      Only launches of communication and surveillance satellites are profitable. Everything else costs really crazy money, but that’s not even the main thing. The question is that there is NOTHING TO DO in space. Why throw away billions of simply earned rubles? For "science"? Which one? Study the mineralogy of space? Interesting. But why?
      Satisfy the curiosity of mineral specialists? Spectrometry already provides a wealth of data on the composition of space debris. And these data say that everything around is the same as on Earth. Just delivering a handful of sand from the asteroid belt costs the equivalent of developing a rare earth deposit on earth in ten years. Isn't sand a little expensive?) Biologists? What we really lack is alien infection. And so on.
      If our astronautics were cheap, it would make sense to rummage around the System. But straining all the forces of civilization out of boredom... A completely pointless activity.

      What is the point of the United States reducing the cost of launching in the absence of a direct competitor? Who would work at a loss? We were cutting wages and laying off workers in order to reduce the cost of launching the Union.
      1. 0
        27 November 2023 21: 02
        Quote from Kartograph
        What is the point of the United States reducing launch costs in the absence of a direct competitor?

        You won’t believe it, but having destroyed a competitor by dumping, you can then raise prices. Straight into space) What Musk and his partner are doing is punishable by considerable prison sentences in any country. There are no people who want to destroy their economy with the dances of monopolistic invaders.
        But Musk’s partner is the State Department, and he won’t send himself to hell. Moreover, the ruined competitor is from a country that is a geopolitical enemy. What is really unclear?!)
        1. +1
          28 November 2023 08: 07
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Quote from Kartograph
          What is the point of the United States reducing launch costs in the absence of a direct competitor?

          You won’t believe it, but having destroyed a competitor by dumping, you can then raise prices. Straight into space) What Musk and his partner are doing is punishable by considerable prison sentences in any country. There are no people who want to destroy their economy with the dances of monopolistic invaders.
          But Musk’s partner is the State Department, and he won’t send himself to hell. Moreover, the ruined competitor is from a country that is a geopolitical enemy. What is really unclear?!)

          Please read the question carefully. At the moment, Roscosmos is cut off from the international market for a long time. How much longer will Musk dump? And who stopped Roscosmos from dumping?
          1. +1
            28 November 2023 08: 29
            The competitor must not be cut off, but destroyed, otherwise he will rise up and crush you, because you are buying victory, and he is improving. Actually, this is the alphabet for children, it’s even strange to explain such copybooks. “Who interfered” with Roscosmos? Seriously?! Roscosmos was hampered by the fact that there was only one green printer on the planet. Suddenly. Chumaaa....
            1. 0
              28 November 2023 09: 34
              Why destroy a competitor by dumping when he is securely under sanctions? What can dumping do to destroy a competitor that sanctions cannot?
      2. 0
        1 December 2023 01: 49
        Quote from Kartograph
        What is the point of the United States reducing the cost of launching in the absence of a direct competitor? Who would work at a loss? We were cutting wages and laying off workers in order to reduce the cost of launching the Union.


        You slightly misunderstand how “space” works in the USA. It was in the USSR that there was a single center of control and intersectoral cooperation. But in the States everything is very different. For example, NASA cannot build anything on its own. This is an Agency, that is, an administrative department. Since a certain time, it has neither factories nor engineers. And all orders for actual production are received by private companies. Moreover, after the epic failure of the Space Shuttle program, legislators are not willing to allocate money specifically to NASA. In addition, after the consolidation of enterprises in the US aerospace industry, the resulting industrial monsters now have lobbying opportunities that are, in principle, inaccessible to NASA. Therefore, in essence, NASA can now only pass the program through Congress and receive money for the competition. And reveal the winner. But Lohokid Martin wouldn't be himself if he hadn't pulled a sucker. Since it is extremely difficult to remove the winner from the moment of winning the competition, and after a certain point it is completely impossible, concerns having brought the project to a certain level (a certain “point of no return”) begin to require additional funding. Moreover, since the project is financed through NASA, its functionaries look like constant beggars in Congress, unable to really understand how much money they need. And this makes it very difficult for them to carry out subsequent projects. And almost all the major programs executed by Lohokid Martin over the past 30 years have turned out to be “somewhat more expensive” than originally expected.
        Concerns have become accustomed to extracting money from NASA not only during the construction of facilities, but also during their operation. And from a certain time, the very fact of NASA’s existence began to interfere with them. That is, the internal conflict between NASA and aerospace concerns is not random and one-time, but quite fundamental in nature.

        And it looks like NASA ultimately pulled the plug. Based on the developments at their disposal and the remaining personnel potential, it, without advertising, created the “private space company” Space-X. Putting Elon Musk, an energetic and adventurous man, at the helm. He did this precisely with the aim of obtaining a weapon in the fight against the dominance of large concerns. It is not for the sake of shortening Roscosmos that the illusion of “cheap space” is being created. And for the sake of the development and implementation of NASA programs. After all, the satellite constellation must be maintained, supported, and expanded. And how this works in itself has been clearly demonstrated by military projects of recent decades.

        So the price war in space is, I think, a purely internal showdown, a struggle over the division of budget money, including Pentagon money.

        As for the “loss,” Space-X’s accounting department is closed, data on the launch price is known only from statements of the company itself, and the cost price is completely unknown. And how they know how to bring money into the shadows in the States is something we still have to learn, learn, and learn.
    2. +4
      27 November 2023 17: 09
      “Ultralyddite or anameson substances with superluminal speed of expiration.” And nothing that cannot be SUPERLIGHT speed?
      1. +2
        27 November 2023 20: 16
        "Ultralyddite or anameson substances with superluminal speed of expiration"
        The waves rolled over the pier and fell down like a swift jack (I. Ilf, E. Petrov)
      2. +2
        28 November 2023 08: 31
        Quote: vadim dok
        “Ultralyddite or anameson substances with superluminal speed of expiration.” And nothing that cannot be SUPERLIGHT speed?

        Are you kidding!! Vadim, you really... These names are taken from science fiction. Tolstoy and Efremov, respectively. As a metaphor for the fact that the chemical cosmos is only possible in science fiction and that’s all. Well, as they say, with the connection!))
    3. +2
      27 November 2023 21: 50
      Quote: Mikhail3
      As I have written many times, no one needs anything like this. In any case, chemical astronautics is a complete dead end, and its “development” is simply a laundering of budget funds.

      The study of space, like all knowledge of the world, is not carried out for the sake of profit, but in the main you are right - chemical rockets are a dead end. We cannot even begin to explore the solar system with them.
      And here, since we are dreaming about the revival of astronautics (of course not under this government and social system), then we need not to repeat the old schemes, but to “cut the corner.” I don’t know about anamezon (it sounds absolutely fantastic), but it’s quite possible to make a YARD. Moreover, the USSR had quite advanced developments on this topic.
      1. +1
        28 November 2023 08: 41
        Quote: Belisarius
        The study of space, like all knowledge of the world, is not carried out for the sake of profit, but mainly

        You won’t believe it, but the main thing is that the kids have something to eat. EVERY action in the world should bring some kind of profit, benefit, profit so that people can grow and develop. If not right now, then in the future. If someone has made a lot of resources, he may spend some of it on all sorts of trifles. But! Some part! In its current form, real space exploration will bleed the budgets of entire countries, bringing absolutely nothing. Die of hunger for no reason? I'm not a poet, but I'll say it in poetry...
        There can be no such “revival” now, because we haven’t had astronautics yet. We set a couple of records, wildly straining all our strength. This is not astronautics, this is stupid record-breaking. And yes, chemical cosmonautics can only be saved by anameson. Nothing else. No chemicals known to us can be ejected from jet nozzles to create a real, profitable, or even cheap industry.
        YARD?! Are you even yourself?! You can use any poisons for starters, God bless you, since you are so determined to pollute the air we breathe. Any poison known to us combines with oxygen sooner or later, precipitating harmless oxides. But radioactive residues, suddenly, are not poisons) They can combine with oxygen, fluorine, or anything without losing an ounce of danger. It takes TIME for them to become less dangerous. Some fall apart in weeks. Some for months. And some for thousands of years. And all these thousands of years, microscopic quantities of them will kill in the same way as on the first day. Nuclear drive in our atmosphere. Brilliant!!
  21. +1
    27 November 2023 10: 23
    Author, you should at least study the topic. Instead of a photo of Buran in the article there is a photo of Buran, which is located in Kazakhstan and only the lazy did not climb into it. And they painted just the Storm.
    1. +5
      27 November 2023 12: 15
      Quote: KrolikZanuda
      Author, you should at least study the topic. Instead of a photo of Buran in the article there is a photo of Buran, which is located in Kazakhstan and only the lazy did not climb into it. And they painted just the Storm.

      You are not in the trend) Studying the material, and generally knowing anything, is not for modern “journalists”. Wikipedia knows she has a brain of stone.
  22. +2
    27 November 2023 10: 39
    The author lives in a fantasy world. Neither the Shuttle nor Buran were multi-mission ships - they were just incremental stages of complex complexes, like what Musk is now advertising. Humanity is still a long way from reusable ships in the style of Star Wars or even Star Trek. And humanity may not live to see such a future - if capitalism continues to exist.
    1. +5
      27 November 2023 11: 45
      Neither the Shuttle nor Buran were multi-role ships; they were just incremental stages of complex complexes

      The shuttle was a reusable ship. He had one step, and she returned. Only the external fuel tank and boosters were jettisoned.
      What you wrote applies to the snowstorm, but not to the Shuttle.
      1. -1
        27 November 2023 13: 45
        Accelerators are the first stage, the shuttle is the second. So the Shuttles are not reusable ships.
        1. +5
          27 November 2023 14: 30
          The shuttles are reusable. Boosters are precisely solid fuel boosters, not the first stage. They have a short start-up time. And they are reusable.
          75 seconds after separating from the system at an altitude of 45 km, the SRB, continuing its flight by inertia, reaches its maximum flight altitude (approximately 67 kilometers), after which, using a parachute system, it lands in the ocean, at a distance of about 226 km from the launch site. The boosters are splashed down in a vertical position, the vertical landing speed is 23 m/s. At the splashdown site, the boosters are picked up by technical service ships and delivered to the manufacturing plant for recovery and reuse.

          Only the relatively cheap external fuel tank burned up in the atmosphere of the Shuttles at launch; this is the only disposable structural element.
          At launch, Buran completely lost the Energia launch vehicle and 4 expensive liquid boosters for it.
          An analogue of the Shuttle was the original version of Buran, OS-120, but it could not be realized technically. Therefore, we took the path of using a launch vehicle instead of a single spacecraft, like the Americans; this option was called OK-92. It was also not possible to create solid fuel side boosters for Energia, so instead of two relatively cheap reusable starting boosters, like the Americans, they made 4 liquid ones. Formally, they were also reusable, this was the requirement of the Ministry of Defense, but in practice, during the Energia flights, no one even set such a task because of the difficulty of landing actually liquid rockets with complex engines on a solid surface (the Americans landed their relatively simple solid-fuel boosters in the ocean).
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      27 November 2023 12: 17
      Quote: Yuras_Belarus
      Humanity is still a long way from reusable ships in the style of Star Wars or even Star Trek.

      Modern humanity - never. What remains of physics claims that all this is completely impossible) And what is possible? Nothing! Sit on your butt straight, you can’t keep going all around...
  23. 0
    27 November 2023 10: 50
    See government procurement tenders. Launches of Soyuz 2.1-b cost $15-18 million, which gives the price for LEO ~ $2000/kg. Wholesale is cheaper. Soyuz 6 will appear, they promise the price will drop by half, but not immediately, and maybe not. It's good to believe, but it's better to know.
    1. +5
      27 November 2023 13: 28
      Quote: ont65
      See government procurement tenders. Launches of Soyuz 2.1-b cost $15-18 million, which gives the price for LEO ~ $2000/kg. Wholesale is cheaper. Soyuz 6 will appear, they promise the price will drop by half, but not immediately, and maybe not. It's good to believe, but it's better to know.

      Until recently, launching a Soyuz with a payload cost 80 million dollars. Where did you get 15 million - a mystery
      1. 0
        29 November 2023 23: 56
        https://m.lenta.ru/news/2019/05/21/700/?from=amp
        Consider the price of the Fregat upper stage, $8,4 million.
  24. +4
    27 November 2023 11: 06
    The Americans initially did not consider the possibility of unmanned flight

    The ships under the Space Shuttle program had the ability to automatically control, but the astronauts did not like it and did not turn it on, considering it to be unpredictable in behavior. Buran's flight confirmed this - the ship landed on the runway in the other direction in relation to the flight plan, adding gray hair to the designers. The ship was almost blown up during landing due to its unpredictable behavior. Later this was presented as a success.
    At the landing stage, there was an emergency... At an altitude of about 11 km, "Buran"... unexpectedly for everyone, made a sharp maneuver, performed an additional turn to the left of the runway before the calculated turn 180º to the right. Entering the landing strip from the northwest direction, the ship landed from the southern end...
    At the moment of the turn, the ship disappeared from the field of view of ground-based surveillance equipment, and communication was interrupted for some time. Those in charge immediately proposed using the ship's emergency detonation system (explosive charges were installed on it, designed to prevent the secret ship from crashing on the territory of another state in case of loss of course). However, Stepan Mikoyan, Deputy Chief Designer of NPO Molniya for flight testing, who was responsible for controlling the ship during the descent and landing phase, decided to wait, and the situation was resolved successfully[23].

    The success of the fully automatic Buran looks amazing. But these were analog, almost tube systems.

    A complete fabrication. Buran was controlled by computers
    The on-board computing equipment of the Buran was permanently based on the ES Computer 2, based on the IBM System 370 architecture. The computer contained up to 50 software subsystems, but not all of them were implemented. The on-board computer was strengthened by two additional on-board computers “Biser-4”, assembled on microprocessors of the K-582 series. In total there were four hardware-parallel computers and a hardware comparator that allowed automatic shutdown of two computers in a row in case of emergency situations, 4 main + 4 backup.


    "Buran" was more perfect than the American product in everything else.

    Two completely different ships, despite their external similarities. The shuttles did not require a launch vehicle to launch. The engines were on the ship, a fuel tank and two rocket boosters were docked to it, and the expensive main engines returned to Earth upon landing. On Buran everything was arranged completely differently. The spacecraft was launched by an expensive disposable Energia launch vehicle, for which Buran was a load; the most expensive engines for launching into orbit were lost along with the launch vehicle.
    1. 0
      27 November 2023 15: 56
      Quote from solar
      Buran's flight confirmed this - the ship landed on the runway in the other direction in relation to the flight plan, adding gray hair to the designers.

      What kind of designers were they who did not know the operating algorithms of their own product? wink
      The landing proceeded in full accordance with the weather forecast - the control system chose the optimal approach direction based on the current wind direction.
      The eastern or western central control area is selected depending on the wind direction on the runway so as to ensure OK flight on the final section of the trajectory in headwind conditions.
      1. 0
        27 November 2023 23: 47
        Quote from solar
        At the landing stage, there was an emergency... At an altitude of about 11 km, "Buran"... unexpectedly for everyone, made a sharp maneuver, performed an additional turn to the left of the runway before the calculated turn 180º to the right. Entering the landing strip from the northwest direction, the ship landed from the southern end...

        Regarding the landing approach from a different direction than expected: the computer, having received telemetry data on the wind, chose the least risky route in such winds.
        And what is this if not artificial intelligence?
    2. +7
      27 November 2023 22: 57
      Quote from solar
      The ships under the Space Shuttle program had the ability to automatically control, but the astronauts did not like it and did not turn it on,

      Who, while on board without means of emergency escape, will “turn on” a system whose performance at the most critical stage has not been confirmed by any test flight on this type of aircraft?
      Quote from solar
      considering unpredictable behavior. Buran's flight confirmed this - the ship landed on the runway in the other direction in relation to the flight plan, adding gray hair to the designers.

      Buran landed perfectly, having perfectly worked out all the algorithms embedded in the automatic control system. Including - he correctly chose (in accordance with the actual weather conditions transmitted on board) the direction of approach to the runway. The fact that this did not coincide with the flight plan is the problem of those who drew up this plan.
      Quote from solar
      The ship was almost blown up during landing due to its unpredictable behavior.

      The ship turned out to be smarter than those who drew up and monitored the plan. It's not the ship's problem.
      Quote from solar
      Later this was presented as a success.

      What else can you call the ideal landing of this type of aircraft in automatic mode? You are writing exactly in the narrative of Russian liberals, who do not understand anything, but crap all the achievements of the USSR.
      1. 0
        27 November 2023 23: 10
        Quote: Comet
        You are writing exactly in the narrative of Russian liberals

        This is xoxol. Without any narratives Yes
  25. +3
    27 November 2023 11: 23
    By the end of the eighties, the Soviet Union was already seriously lagging behind in computer technology
    I read up to this point and didn’t even bother reading further. The author simply repeats hammered-in templates from the 90s that do not correspond to the truth. What can you expect from such incompetence in space topics?! Just a victim of the Unified State Exam.
    1. 0
      27 November 2023 16: 03
      Quote: Artunis
      I read up to this point and didn’t even bother reading further. The author simply repeats hammered-in templates from the 90s that do not correspond to the truth.

      Well, tell us about the mighty Soviet computers, each of which was unique even in conditionally mass production. Or about the completely domestic element base developed by the Soviet company iBieM. wink
      You can also remember about the “fully domestic” computers of the ES-1840 series.
  26. +10
    27 November 2023 12: 00
    Quote: Artunis
    By the end of the eighties, the Soviet Union was already seriously lagging behind in computer technology
    I read up to this point and didn’t even bother reading further. The author simply repeats hammered-in templates from the 90s that do not correspond to the truth. What can you expect from such incompetence in space topics?! Just a victim of the Unified State Exam.


    In the field of computers he lagged behind. At that time I worked in a computer production facility; the word “computer” was not widely used. We then argued about how many years - the dispute went on within 5 - 10 years. Now I think that at that time we were behind by less than 5. We were following the path of copying, so, naturally, we could not overtake, but we walked quickly. I mean development, not series size; they were lagging far behind in terms of pieces.

    Now the situation is different, catching up over the horizon.
    1. 0
      2 December 2023 12: 57
      To copy you need to have the same production cycle, which was not the case in the USSR. When necessary (for software use), analogues were created. In particular, the well-known i8080 had the domestic KR580IK1 (76), and in the end, without the full line of this series, which was developed at Intel. Analog, not a copy. They produced a bunch of their own processors.
  27. +6
    27 November 2023 12: 30
    It doesn’t happen that you lie on the stove for 30 years - you rest on your laurels, and then get down and immediately join the fight with the leaders.
  28. +5
    27 November 2023 12: 40
    Quote: French Herald
    It doesn’t happen that you lie on the stove for 30 years - you rest on your laurels, and then get down and immediately join the fight with the leaders.

    To close the gap, you need to move faster than the person being pursued. We haven’t even started moving yet, we are debating whether to start.
  29. +7
    27 November 2023 13: 56
    The article touched on a topic that interests me. But I was surprised by the superficiality and lack of attention to the main conclusions:
    1) the concept of a space plane (shuttle) was a complete failure. At least at the technology level of the 1980s. There are now cautious attempts to restart development (BOR-Spiral-Dream Chaser), but the much more convincing example of SpaceX's Starship suggests that the alternatives at least have compelling advantages
    2) a superficial approach to the supposed shortcomings of the Buran (the engines are built into the upper stage, Energy, and do not return with the aircraft itself, as was done on the Space Shuttle) only speaks of ignorance of the materiel. Separate, autonomous from Buran, the development of Energia made it possible to use it not only for a space plane (see point 1, this is a dead end), but also as a super-heavy rocket, exactly what Starship should do in the 2020s! Finally, they didn’t want to sacrifice the engines at all; they planned to return the upper stage - again, exactly what SpaceX is demonstrating in the 2020s, and Soviet engineers planned in the 1970s. It was planned, but we didn’t have time to finalize it.
    3) all the advantages of the spaceplane scheme: the ability to pick up cargo from orbit that was not specially prepared for this (an enemy secret satellite), landing on a poorly prepared airfield in a wide range of latitudes, orbital bombardment - were not in demand in practice (40 years!) and are achieved in separately more effective solutions?
    4) the concept of fast and simple reusable flights (several times a day) does not necessarily require a spaceplane and horizontal landing.
    1. +2
      27 November 2023 14: 49
      engines are built into the accelerating block, Energy

      Energy is not an upper stage, but a launch vehicle, one of the most expensive parts of the system. No one even planned to make it returnable.
      There was only a formal requirement for the repeated use of starting Energy accelerators (there were 4 of them, not 2, like the Americans).
      But in practice, it was not possible to make relatively cheap solid fuel boosters, so each of the starting boosters was a liquid rocket of a rather complex design, and no one really set out to make them reusable, like the Americans (and this was unrealistic due to a much more complex design liquid engines compared to solid fuel ones)
      1. +1
        27 November 2023 23: 05
        Quote from solar
        But in practice it was not possible to make relatively cheap solid fuel boosters

        You forgot to write about security. The Americans ruined Challenger and its crew with such boosters.
        1. +1
          27 November 2023 23: 57
          Quote from solar
          ..........and in reality no one set the task of making them reusable, like the Americans (and this was unrealistic due to the much more complex design of liquid engines compared to solid fuel ones)

      2. +2
        28 November 2023 05: 31
        Thank you very much for your qualified comment. Energy is a launch vehicle (or even a space “system”), absolutely true. But in relation to Buran, Energy was used as an upper stage (first stage). It is difficult to argue about the plans, since there is no embodiment in metal, but it was planned to make everything returnable - both the Energia rocket and all 4 side accelerators. They (it seems that Vadim Lukashevich described it in detail) planned to install a rotary wing, which from a longitudinal position was supposed to turn perpendicular to the body and the boosters were then supposed to be planned into the landing zone (it was planned to plan - such a play on words happened involuntarily))), as they should have I don’t remember saving Energy itself, since these plans were very much in their infancy. What can be seen from the example of SpaceX today: there is a plan for landing Starship, but the first prototypes are not planned to be preserved, but only partially to work out the landing elements on them. So on the first flights of Energia, the main thing was to work out the ascent normally and bring out the second stage.
      3. 0
        1 December 2023 01: 59
        Quote from solar
        But in practice, it was not possible to make relatively cheap solid fuel boosters, so each of the launch boosters was a liquid rocket of a rather complex design


        ??? Who was going to make solid fuel boosters? And what does “relatively cheap” mean? Regarding what?
        What you call “starter accelerators” is actually a universal accelerator unit with a high degree of automation. ANY solid propellant booster would be cheaper than this, because this is nothing more than the Zenit launch vehicle, until recently produced in Ukraine.
  30. MSN
    +3
    27 November 2023 14: 44
    The Space Shuttle in the United States slowed down the rocket engine development program - as a result, they could not even come close to the level of the RD-180. The Americans stopped purchasing engines only in 2021, but the products are still outside the sanctions. If anything happens, they will turn to Roscosmos.

    The RD-180 was created as part of a competition announced by Lockheed-Martin for the modernization and conversion of the American Atlas ICBM. There were many participants, NPO Energomash won. It was created on the basis of the RD-170, according to Lockheed’s technical specifications. Roscosmos has absolutely nothing to do with this matter.
    When creating the RD-180 engine, due to the halving of the consumption of fuel components compared to the RD-170 prototype, it was necessary to redesign the THA and a number of automation units. According to the initial estimate, the unification of the RD-180 and RD-170 engines was 70...75%. However, during the development of the RD-180 engine according to the technical specifications of Lockheed Martin more advanced design solutions were found for a number of units than those used in the RD-170 engine, including the design of the pump guide vanes was changed, the operating conditions of the THA bearings were improved, and the efficiency was increased. supply units, a new sub-tank separation valve has been developed. In addition, the flanged design of the gas generator has been replaced by a welded one, and the engine layout has been simplified. In connection with these works, the degree of unification of the RD-180 and RD-170 engines has decreased significantly. Essentially, the RD-180 engine is a new development using the RD-170 engine as the base version.
  31. +7
    27 November 2023 15: 58
    The Russian Soyuz is also not a competitor - one kilogram of payload costs five thousand dollars.

    "Soyuz" is generally archaic, it is an inheritance of design solutions from the R-7. The rocket is cheap because it has already recouped the price of its R&D and investments in production lines 100500 years ago. Beyond this, it is primitive and its weight to weight ratio is also very weak. I understand that now the patriots will start waving their claws and widening their eyes - but I just want to say that the Soyuz is not a modern launch vehicle based on not modern technologies. Launches on it were budget-friendly precisely because the Americans had been hammering home the approach to space for a long time. launches in terms of improving their budget. They were interested in other parameters - throwable mass, reliability, expansion of optionality.

    And it is absolutely incorrect to evaluate the Shuttle from the point of view of the load being launched - it itself is the same “load to be launched”. His beauty is that he could “reduce” this load, that he could maneuver, etc. Evaluating this device based on the price of the thrown mass is the same as evaluating a microscope based on the parameters “how many nails will it hammer until it breaks.”

    Having mentioned “Buran”, it’s sad that the author did not mention “Energy” - this toy seems to me to be a much more advanced and interesting product than the shuttle. Under the Buran, the USSR and the post-USSR did not have any tasks beyond the military - well, really, they weren’t supposed to refuel commercial satellites from it? Whose? Soviet? Haha. Other products coped with the tasks of supplying the Mir - what then would be the tasks of the Buran beyond this? Toly the matter of "Energy", as a super-heavy product was capable of delivering oversized products (such as a prototype of the same "Skif") of high masses into orbit, this could potentially be used to launch AMS for scientific purposes, to launch powerful space telescopes - it could cooperate with the same Europeans or Americans to launch their loads for $$$. This product could work to improve or gradually replace Mir - and in this case we would skip the stage from the ISS and would not be rustling papers with the ROSS concept now. We would have a rocket capable of putting into orbit in 4 launches everything we need in volumes sufficient for future work. It’s also worth remembering the “Vulcan” concept, if I’m not mistaken, which was built on the developments of “Energia” and made it possible to produce almost twice as much mass.
    The question is, why all this? Yes, because space is not limited to orbit - the product would be suitable for assembling a ship in orbit “under Mars” or for throwing elements of an inhabited station onto the same Moon.
    Yes, for the poor Russian Federation of 1991, all this would have been clearly unnecessary. But it’s still much more useful “for the future” than a returning shuttle on which there is stupidly nothing to return.
    And speaking of “the perfection of the ratio of mass and thrown mass” - “Energia” of all Soviet missiles was the most advanced product, “Soyuz” in comparison with it is a craft from the Stone Age.

    As for the future of the “reusable shuttle” concept, it needs to be developed, but what will we do with it? At the moment, we still have a toolkit for “relatively low-cost launches” based on old and rather primitive products (such as Progress, Soyuz LV and Soyuz spacecraft). Their use to some extent paralyzes the search for the need for something more sophisticated and at the same time the development of something that would have to be supplied with something more sophisticated.
    That is, directions where an aircraft-type shuttle could be useful (outside the military) - the cat still wrote them. Here we need to build the entire concept for space 20-30 years in advance and much better than what we have now. In this case, it might be possible to build in such a device so that it would be usable and not gather dust later on the ground.
    1. 0
      1 December 2023 02: 11
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      And it is absolutely incorrect to evaluate the Shuttle from the point of view of the load being launched - it itself is the same “load to be launched”

      ??? Why suddenly? The shuttle went into orbit on its own, using its own engines. Using fuel from a large fuel tank (a huge cylinder in the middle of the entire structure) and two additional accelerators (orange “sticks” on the sides). Buran could be called a “load”; it was Energy that carried it.

      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      "Soyuz" is generally archaic, it is an inheritance of design solutions from the R-7.

      I don’t understand, what’s archaic about the Union? Well, now, for example, Musk is trying to abandon the horizontal arrangement of the first stages, trying to at least launch a 170-meter-long structure into orbit on an array of 33 engines. Innovation can't go any further. Contrary to the experience gained on the Royal rockets. The result is a fire show.
  32. +6
    27 November 2023 16: 27
    The author is a humorist? laughing
    “Buran” is “an unbearable burden for the budget”, and the flight of capital to the West in hundreds of billions of dollars a year is feasible, even in the Northern Military District there is something left.... to launch a dozen “Geraniums” ($10. - thing). You don't have to read any further.
    1. -2
      27 November 2023 16: 47
      Quote: ivan2022
      “Buran” is “an unbearable burden for the budget,” and the flight of capital to the West in hundreds of billions of dollars a year is feasible

      "Vanya" is good, but illiterate...


      Ivanushka from Russian fairy tales is not related to you, perhaps?
  33. +3
    27 November 2023 16: 32
    A new Buran is not needed.
    We need our own OS, our own advanced CPU, production of server and PC components.
    Projects capable of ruining the state without the slightest “exhaust” are thrown into the firebox.
    1. 0
      29 November 2023 10: 32
      Quote from Neutral Neutral
      A new Buran is not needed.
      We need our own OS, our own advanced CPU, production of server and PC components.
      Projects capable of ruining the state without the slightest “exhaust” are thrown into the firebox.

      It's a pity I can't give a thousand pluses)
    2. +1
      1 December 2023 02: 13
      Quote from Neutral Neutral
      We need our own OS, our own advanced CPU, production of server and PC components.


      Yes Yes Yes. And then write a Buran simulation game for this axis and be terribly proud...
  34. 0
    27 November 2023 17: 09
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    evaluate the microscope according to the parameters “how many nails will it hammer until it breaks.”


    Sorry, maybe off topic - judging by the terminology, did you have anything to do with engineering in the USSR?
  35. +1
    27 November 2023 17: 16
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    Having mentioned “Buran”, it’s sad that the author did not mention “Energy” - this toy seems to me to be a much more advanced and interesting product than the shuttle.


    I absolutely agree with you regarding “Energy”; the lack of a super-heavy launch vehicle today is simply a disaster for our astronautics. We cannot deliver cargo the size of a spaceship to the Moon, there is no rocket, and Energy, as far as I understand, was comparable in characteristics to the Saturn, which carried the Apollos to the Moon.

    "Buran" was technically good and probably had prospects, but rather as a rescue or military ship, a kind of "answer to Chamberlain" in space. The Soviet empire could probably afford this in its best years. This is probably not relevant today.

    True, today we do not only have Buran, but also Energy.
    1. +4
      27 November 2023 18: 56
      It is the absence of a superheavy that makes our Lunar program either very limited in scope or, in principle, a dead end. We will either have to do it (and, taking into account how long projects these are usually, this project, even if it starts “today”, will survive for years at the stage of the drawing board and the ISS and most of our currently outlined plans for the Moon), or we will have to be stuck forever in orbit - we will miss out on the development (stakeout) of the Moon and the prospects for studying distant bodies of the system, and perhaps even the towing niche designated by us by the Nucleon project will be intercepted by someone more nimble (a la Elon Musk ) .
      So, ideally, it would be (if only it were :-)) then not to bury “Energy”, but to further develop and unify this project for the future, so to speak. A couple of years ago, the thesis was voiced that it was no use trying to revive this now; it would be easier and cheaper to create from scratch, since cooperation, personnel and production of many elements were buried. Alas, unfortunately this is most likely the case. However, if we knew how to count money better, perhaps we would find some kind of budget solution; after all, there were a lot of precedents for deploying “import substitution” on large projects.
      Let’s just say that without Buran I can see the future of our cosmonautics, but without the analogue of Energia, I simply don’t see it. "Angara" is 2.5 times inferior in carrying capacity to "Energia", in fact, our cosmonautics will be limited by the carrying capacity of "Angara" in the next 15 years.
      As I understand (if we follow the analogy), the “Energy” indicators for throwing mass into the Lunar orbit were 21 tons - that is, about 1/5 of the LEO orbit, and if the proportion is approximately correct, then the “Angara” will throw an object with a mass of not more than more than 7.5 tons. Essentially, this is the mass of the Soyuz with its three-day autonomy and three-person crew - that is, we will not throw anything heavier than the Soyuz to the Moon in one launch, and in view of this, all our practical attempts will be limited by this until we make a superheavy. To be as sophisticated as making three launches to launch a manned lunar mission - I have doubts that this will happen. Accordingly, the question is - how many Angara launches would we have to make to create a lunar base? It’s too much for such a base to appear in the foreseeable 15 years, and most likely 20.
  36. +5
    27 November 2023 18: 03
    Actually a very strange article.
    But that everything is bad with space is obvious to almost everyone! There is a promising project that I believe in, but only because it is a project of Rosatom, not Roscosmos. Everything else is a shadow of the former greatness of Soviet cosmonautics.
    But nevertheless, some of the author’s epithets and conclusions confused me a little, to put it mildly.

    Here for example:
    Many people call the Soviet Union a country of catching-up development. They say that Korolev copied the first intercontinental missile from the German V-2, and the Tu-4 strategic bomber was assembled using reverse engineering from the American B-29. There is a grain of truth in this


    What is the grain of truth? Of the above examples, only the Tu-4 was an example of reverse engineering (yes, to be fair, some Soviet missile technologies were later reverse engineered by the Americans themselves, but they are not called backward). There is such a huge engineering and technological gap between the R-7 and the V-2, and when the German engineers (the few who ended up in the Soviet Union) returned to Germany and saw the launch of the first satellite, they were sincerely surprised. Because they didn’t even suspect that we were developing such a giant (at that time) as the R-7. The engines actually originate from the Vau engines. But even here there is still a gigantic technological gap between them. And why are the Americans then not in the position of “catching up”? They, too, created their first ballistic missiles based on the V-2.
    And I’m not even talking about the very formulation of “catch-up” development. So maybe because we were a developing country? There was little industry in Tsarist times - they began to build a lot of their own. The infrastructure was poorly developed - everything was rebuilt too!
    And in the space industry.... in principle, in certain industries we were advanced trendsetters. How can you call us “catching up” if in the space race WE were caught up, and not we THEM?!

    Or this:
    By the end of the eighties, the Soviet Union was already seriously lagging behind in computer technology

    At the end of the 80s, there was a backlog caused by the emerging crisis and a decrease in funding for the industry. In the mid and early 80s, the gap with the United States was smaller. We had our own electronics and microelectronics centers (hello to Zelenograd). And despite the lag, the industry itself existed. There were also microelectronics design centers and production plants. There were our own developers of our own software. And all this is based on our standards and in our programming languages.
  37. 0
    27 November 2023 18: 30
    The inscription on the fuselage, which appeared shortly before the death of the Buran, is very indicative:

    I would dip these “creatives” headlong into indelible paint and let them run naked through the steppes of Baikonur. Freaks!
  38. +3
    27 November 2023 19: 50
    Flight Yu.A. Gagarin is the collective result of the development of a socialist economy (social state). (a typical example of another Soviet galosh, which the modern Russian Federation is proud of and “wears” to holes). The Russian Empire and the USSR developed, developed new territories, etc. Today, thanks to “wise leadership,” people from southern countries are developing (conquering) the cities and towns of the Russian Federation. When this process is completed, who will need space? Palaces and ocean yachts are a different matter. These items are very useful. But not for everyone.
  39. -3
    27 November 2023 20: 34
    There is no need for such shuttles - they are too expensive. What does Roscosmos actually do in orbit? Where is the data about the constant Dirac field and what is the vacuum in space in fact, where is all this, why don’t they publish it, the air and airships rise to unimaginable heights, has anyone even taken measurements of inertia at different heights? The Second Reich will help you, they measure only grams per cm². At different altitudes, have you even heard of the constant Dirac field? Inertia.
  40. +2
    27 November 2023 20: 36
    Damn, why do all the authors of such articles believe that the Space Shuttle could not fly and land automatically?
    Well, where did this nonsense come from?
    1. +1
      27 November 2023 22: 42
      Quote: SovAr238A
      Damn, why do all the authors of such articles believe that the Space Shuttle could not fly and land automatically?
      Well, where did this nonsense come from?

      Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.
      1. +2
        27 November 2023 22: 48
        Quote: Comet
        Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.

        In this case, Buran cannot be classified as reusable and manned systems, right?
        1. +3
          28 November 2023 22: 32
          Quote: Commissar Kitten
          Quote: Comet
          Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.

          In this case, Buran cannot be classified as reusable and manned systems, right?

          It’s not clear how you came to such a conclusion about Buran? The lack of automatic landing of the Space Shuttle means that this technology is inoperable on the NASA TRL scale. And according to her, Buran is all right.
          1. -1
            30 November 2023 07: 10
            Quote: Comet
            Quote: Commissar Kitten
            Quote: Comet
            Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.

            In this case, Buran cannot be classified as reusable and manned systems, right?

            It’s not clear how you came to such a conclusion about Buran? The lack of automatic landing of the Space Shuttle means that this technology is inoperable on the NASA TRL scale. And according to her, Buran is all right.

            The Shuttle had an automatic landing system, and it landed automatically, only the landing gear was manually released. And then, they gave the command that the chassis was ready for release, and it was the automation that released the chassis at the right time.
            Or do you think that the shuttle's deorbit, passage through the atmosphere and entry to the runway was done manually?
            Funny
          2. -1
            30 November 2023 07: 10
            Quote: Comet
            Quote: Commissar Kitten
            Quote: Comet
            Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.

            In this case, Buran cannot be classified as reusable and manned systems, right?

            It’s not clear how you came to such a conclusion about Buran? The lack of automatic landing of the Space Shuttle means that this technology is inoperable on the NASA TRL scale. And according to her, Buran is all right.

            The Shuttle had an automatic landing system, and it landed automatically, only the landing gear was manually released. And then, they gave the command that the chassis was ready for release, and it was the automation that released the chassis at the right time.
            Or do you think that the shuttle's deorbit, passage through the atmosphere and entry to the runway was done manually?
            Funny
            1. +1
              30 November 2023 23: 06
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Quote: Comet
              Because the Space Shuttle never landed automatically, only manually. The Space Shuttle's ability to land automatically has not been confirmed.

              Quote: Comet
              The lack of automatic landing of the Space Shuttle means that this technology is inoperable on the NASA TRL scale...

              The Shuttle had an automatic landing system, and it landed automatically, only the landing gear was manually released.

              The shuttle never landed automatically:
              No landings were ever done by computer.

              https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/23987/was-the-space-shuttle-landing-sequence-executed-manually-or-automatically

              Moreover:
              The existing automated approach guidance system has never been fully tested.

              https://spaceref.com/status-report/nasa-lessons-learned-space-shuttle-automatic-landing-capabilities-0194/

              Significant risk reduction will result if the space Shuttle's automatic landing capabilities are fully developed and certified for operational use.
              ...
              Develop a detailed test of the automatic landing system that will include all functions through touchdown and rollout to wheel stop.

              That is, on the Space Shuttle there was some kind of craft that was never fully tested in flight and which, in order to be brought to working condition, still needs to be “developed” and “tested.”
              Perhaps that's why:
              STS-53 was to have tested autoland, but the test was canceled.

              There were no suicides...

              ZY SovAr238A, Are you still funny?
          3. -1
            30 November 2023 11: 04
            Quote: Comet
            It’s not clear how you came to such a conclusion about Buran?

            I drew this conclusion from the fact that Buran never made a second flight or carried people into space, so its ability to perform these operations has not been confirmed. That seems to be the case, no?
            1. +1
              30 November 2023 22: 34
              Quote: Commissar Kitten
              Quote: Comet
              It’s not clear how you came to such a conclusion about Buran?

              I drew this conclusion from the fact that Buran never made a second flight or carried people into space, so its ability to perform these operations has not been confirmed. That seems to be the case, no?

              It is so unclear, for example, how from the fact that Buran has never carried out ... delivery of people into space, it follows that “Buran cannot be classified as ... manned systems”? After all, the definition of the term “manned spacecraft” is:
              manned spacecraft; PKA: A spacecraft, the design of which provides for the presence of a habitable compartment and the ability to control the movement and operation of the apparatus by the astronaut on board.

              associated with design, and not with the delivery of people into space and space flights performed.
              And it was not for nothing that I mentioned the NASA TRL scale. Useful for understanding the process of creating space technology.
              1. -1
                1 December 2023 09: 42
                I can also emphasize that the ability to perform an automatic landing and the maximum level of technological readiness of the automatic landing system are, strictly speaking, not the same thing. But, in my opinion, this is not a discussion on the merits, but a kind of special Olympics, which is not very interesting to me. In such disputes, the one who has more free time wins.
      2. +2
        28 November 2023 12: 05
        It has not been fully checked, but partially checked several times. For example, in the STS-2 and STS-3 missions, and in the STS-3 mission the crew deliberately disrupted the operation of the automatic landing system in order to test its reliability. The autopilot on the STS-3 mission was disabled only 40 meters from the ground.
        Moreover, the shuttle landing in all cases was automatic up to an altitude of 50000 feet (15000 m), when the Shuttle was already moving to subsonic speeds. And after that the Shuttle was landed manually. The reason for this was the categorical position of the pilots on this issue - already the commander of the Columbia shuttle (STS-1) John Young categorically refused to land in automatic mode, and other pilots supported him. Manual control on Buran was also introduced at the request of the pilots. And not in vain. Already the first automatic flight of Buran miraculously did not lead to the explosion of the ship, thanks to Mikoyan’s strong nerves that it was not blown up. If there had been pilots on Buran at that moment, they would have immediately turned off the automation during landing, as it behaved unpredictably.
        Initially, the automatic landing system did not provide for a transition to manual control mode. However, test pilots and cosmonauts demanded that the designers include a manual mode in the landing control system[24]:
        ...the control system of the Buran ship was supposed to automatically perform all actions until the ship stopped after landing. The pilot's participation in control was not provided for. (Later, at our insistence, a backup manual control mode was provided for during the atmospheric flight during the return of the ship.)
        — S. A. Mikoyan
        1. +3
          28 November 2023 22: 53
          Quote from solar
          It has not been fully checked, but partially checked several times. For example, in the STS-2 and STS-3 missions, and in the STS-3 mission the crew deliberately disrupted the operation of the automatic landing system in order to test its reliability. The autopilot on the STS-3 mission was disabled only 40 meters from the ground.

          That is, there was no automatic landing. That's what they write to you about.
          Quote from solar
          Moreover, the landing of the Shuttles in all cases was automatic up to an altitude of 50000 feet (15000 m), when the Shuttle already reached subsonic speeds.

          This flight mode is not a landing, it is a descent.
          Quote from solar
          And after that the Shuttle was landed manually.

          Landing is not automatic.
          Quote from solar
          The reason for this was the categorical position of the pilots on this issue - already the commander of the Columbia shuttle (STS-1) John Young categorically refused to land in automatic mode, and other pilots supported him.

          Naturally, no competent, sane pilot would agree to test the automatic landing system of such an aircraft without means of emergency escape from the aircraft.
          Quote from solar
          Already the first automatic flight of Buran miraculously did not lead to the explosion of the ship, thanks to Mikoyan’s strong nerves that it was not blown up.

          Buran did everything right. But there was no data from Buran on the ground, so those on the ground did not understand what Buran was doing.
          Quote from solar
          If there had been pilots on Buran at that moment, they would have immediately turned off the automation during landing, as it behaved unpredictably

          Where were you so brainwashed that you have such fantasies? If there were pilots on board, they would not have turned off the automation (autopilot), which did everything correctly, maintaining the flight parameters set by the navigation system. And if they had turned it off, they would have flown the same way as in automatic mode. This is because where and how to fly (flight parameters) is determined by the navigation system, and either the autopilot (automatic mode) or the pilot (manual mode) can maintain the flight parameters set by the navigation system.
  41. +2
    27 November 2023 21: 53
    To be fair, the very concept of a returnable spaceplane turned out to be a dead end.
    Not a dead end. The tasks that were set before them disappeared. Buran was supposed to serve a group of impact satellites. Shuttle - serve a grandiose orbital station for 50 people. They decided not to make impact satellites, and the station, the lunar base and the flight to Mars were eaten by blacks. Plus, the US Air Force also mutilated the shuttle, making completely exorbitant demands, which made the shuttle flight wildly expensive.
  42. +4
    27 November 2023 22: 15
    Alas, alas.
    How much redneck PR for reusable ships pro-Rogozin.
    And the choice of names, and PR of the development progress....
    True result "as always"
    Developments are closed. the money has run out. The Rogozins occupy new positions.
    There is careful PR going on - oh, how he fought, how he fought corruption in space construction...
    He won everyone, ensured trouble-free launches, and the fact that there are few of them and a bunch of space programs have come to a head is of secondary importance.
    Now he is developing new territories, after the PR skiff of the “royal wolves” and restaurants in the LDPR.
  43. +4
    27 November 2023 22: 18
    The question is what Russia needs from space. If you take an independent step into orbit and the Moon, then the Burano analogue will be superfluous: the cost of overcoming the gravity well with rockets is still much lower. It will probably be effective for servicing a large satellite constellation. But do we have such a group? So the answer from the couch is no, a new Buran is not needed.
  44. +1
    28 November 2023 06: 49
    It's time to remember the "Spiral" system of Lozino-Lozinsky at a new technological level.
  45. +2
    28 November 2023 08: 27
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    As I understand (if we follow the analogy), the “Energy” indicators for throwing mass into the Lunar orbit were 21 tons - that is, about 1/5 of the LEO orbit, and if the proportion is approximately correct, then the “Angara” will throw an object with a mass of not more than more than 7.5 tons.


    Saturn brought 43 tons to the Moon, Energy - 21 according to the project, Vulcan-Gurcules (which did not exist) - 43.

    Even Energy did not reach Saturn, if, of course, the layout was compared correctly (question - is the Apollo propulsion engine a 3rd stage or part of the ship?).

    That is, in any case, without a super-heavy rocket, you can draw any kind of miracle ships, but they will not fly further than the orbit of the Earth. Assembling a ship in orbit and then launching to the Moon is probably a possible option, but it obviously stems from the inability to make a rocket.
  46. 0
    28 November 2023 15: 49
    I have my doubts about SpaceX.

    It amazes me that behind its “low cost” there is depreciation due to “government contributions”.

    There are even those who claim that Tesla is a massive pyramid scheme supported by government subsidies.

    The US has a dollar printing machine so they can afford to invest money without any backing into crazy things.

    By the way, SpaceX’s concept reminds me of the first Soviet rockets of the Korolev era.

    Greetings!

    ---------


    Tengo mis dudas sobre SpaceX.

    Me late que detrás de su "bajo costo" lo que hay es una amortización por "aportes estatales".

    Hasta hay quienes sostienen que "Tesla" es una gran estafa piramidal, sostenida con subsidios del Estado.

    EE.UU. tiene la máquina de imprimir dólares, de ahí que pueda darse el lujo de meter dinero sin respaldo a lo loco.

    De paso, SpaceX en concepto me suena a los primeros cohetes soviéticos de la era Koroliov.

    Regards!
  47. +4
    28 November 2023 20: 25
    analog, almost tube systems [

    So write electromechanical, why feel sorry for the reader laughing

    On board Buran there was quadruple ZVM on IS. The command system was like the IBM 360. No, it wasn’t “stolen”, this command system was open, without a license.
    1. +2
      28 November 2023 21: 20
      One of the most famous, cloned and stolen computer games was Russian.

      I even read that its author had no idea that in the West they make fortunes from their game.

      Yes, I mean glorious Tetris!!!!

      Greetings!



      --------------

      Uno de los juegos de computadora mas famoso, clonado y robado era Ruso.

      Hasta leí que su autor no tenia ni idea que en Occidente estaban haciendo fortunas con su juego.

      Si, me refiero al glorioso Tetris!!!!

      Regards!
    2. 0
      29 November 2023 17: 12
      The BISER-4 computer on the BIS 582 series was used as the Buran on-board computer.
      And the quadruple was only for the 1st flight, but normally it should be a quadruple!
  48. 0
    28 November 2023 21: 34
    Is all this connected to the history of the “space race”?

    Well, the fact that the USSR won it by a large margin, what followed next is a logical consequence of your, Soviet, achievements.

    The first artificial satellite.
    First living creature
    The first man in space.
    The first "walk" into outer space.
    The first woman in space.

    The Yankees, in order to show off and not look like idiots, shelled out a ton of dollars.

    If Apollo's budget was projected to date, this would be impossible to do today.

    The USSR, lagging behind technologically, with only a few technical and a few other missiles, developed, not to mention, unrivaled technology.

    In this sense, Soviet socialism points its finger at the sore of Western capitalism.

    A brutal dictatorship, in the opinion of a very democratic West, and with an underdeveloped economy for them, has achieved incredible success!!!

    With less cost, much more!!!


    Greetings!!!

    -----------


    Todo esto viene a cuento de la "carrera espacial"?

    Pues la ganó la URSS por lejos, lo que siguió después es la logica consecuencia de sus logros, los sovieticos.

    Primer satelite artificial.
    Primer Ser Vivo
    Primer hombre en el espacio.
    Primera "caminata" espacial.
    Primera mujer en el espacio.

    Los yanquis para hacer gala y no quedar como unos imbéciles, pusieron dolares a montones.

    Cuando se proyecta el presupuesto Apolo, a la fecha actual, seria imposible de hacerlo hoy mismo.

    La URSS, corriendo desde atrás, en tecnología, solo teniendo algunos tecnicos y algun que otro cohete, desarrollaron, con mucho menos una tecnologia inigualable.

    En ese sentido, el socialismo sovietico le metia el dedo en la llaga al capitalismo occidental.

    Una dictadura feroz, segun el muy democratico occidente, y con una economía subdesarrollada para ellos, hizo logros increíbles!!!

    Con menos, mucho más!!!


    Regards!!!
  49. +1
    29 November 2023 07: 47
    Quote from SimonDellsen
    Well, the fact that the USSR won it by a large margin, what followed next is a logical consequence of your, Soviet, achievements.


    The question is, until when did we win? Judging by Kamanin’s diaries, the stagnation in space in the USSR began around 1964. I advise you to read it, it is in the public domain, this man knew what he wrote and he wrote for himself.

    For those interested in the history of astronautics, these diaries are a must read, IMHO :)
  50. +1
    29 November 2023 07: 53
    At the moment no, it is not needed. There is no point in refilling a leaky tank. While “specialists” like Manturov are at the helm, it’s just money down the drain. Their destiny is maggots.
  51. +1
    29 November 2023 13: 24
    Lozino-Lozinsky led the work on MAKS - the development of Buran. An elegant system - of 3 links - AN-225, accelerator and spaceplane. Take-off and climb to 10 km on Mriya’s back, then the accelerator and spaceplane compartment, Mriya rolls to the side, the accelerator and spaceplane rush into orbit, before entering it - the accelerator compartment, then the spaceplane itself.
    This would be a serious step forward - in the USSR there were about 12 - 14 airfields coming for launch, the system was several times cheaper than Buran. Yes, the spaceplane was smaller, the crew was 2 people, but the cost was real, without any strain. The spaceplane could solve military problems. The fact that this project was canceled in high readiness - yes, it was a nightmare. But Buran turned out to be too expensive, however, the rich minke whales also abandoned theirs over time. I heard that it was the cross at MAX that undermined Lozino-Lozinsky’s health.
    1. 0
      29 November 2023 19: 39
      this project, in high readiness, was killed - yes, it was a nightmare.


      There was no “high readiness” there. There were only sketches and initial calculations.
      All the money of the USSR was thrown into the Energy project.
      There, even the plane was not ready; it was necessary to design and make a larger An-325 with 8 engines, and not 6, like the AN-225.

      I heard that it was the cross at MAX that undermined Lozino-Lozinsky’s health.


      He was in excellent health. He lived to be 91!
      1. 0
        30 November 2023 02: 54
        I agree about health, 91 is a great life. And they have been working on MAX since 1981 - by the end of the 80s, when it was declassified, a lot had already been done. But it didn't work. Probably still relevant, but there is no airplane instead of Mriya.
    2. 0
      1 December 2023 02: 23
      Quote: Glagol1
      This would be a serious step forward - in the USSR there were about 12 - 14 airfields coming for launch, the system was several times cheaper than Buran. Yes, the spaceplane was smaller, the crew was 2 people, but the cost was real, without any strain. The spaceplane could solve military problems. The fact that this project was canceled in high readiness - yes, it was a nightmare. But Buran turned out to be too expensive, however, the rich minke whales also abandoned theirs over time.


      There's only one thing you're wrong about. These projects were not a replacement for one another, but a complement. The fact is that Buran also had a “wingless” version in the future. A kind of building block on the basis of which a new orbital base would be built. And the MAKS project ships would become a regular means of transport for this base. Large cargo such as new modules would be launched by Buran, and the crews would fly and return research results on small ships.

  52. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      29 November 2023 18: 53
      But Energia, in addition to the snowstorm, could carry 125 tons of payload into the orbit.


      There is no such rocket yet that can throw 125 tons to the Moon, not even in projects.
      The energy could only propel the Buran shuttle into a low reference orbit.

      But only 21 tons could be carried into lunar orbit.
      In theory, there was an option with eight (“Vulcan”) side blocks; it could carry 43 tons to the Moon.
  53. 0
    29 November 2023 16: 58
    Rational thinking suggests that getting rid of the Energy-Buran program saved the country a lot of money. Even if the Union had not collapsed, the space shuttles would have become an unbearable burden on the state budget.


    It’s even strange to suddenly discover such sanity and a penchant for rational thinking in the author. I started reading, thinking to find only sad howls of “uniqueness” and “sabotage.”
    Bravo, plus!
  54. The comment was deleted.
  55. 0
    29 November 2023 20: 15
    Author, study the materiel. The inscription about Yura was made much later than the death of Buran. In May 2021.
    Product 1.02, Tempest, which is located in the MZK and on which the inscription was painted, still stands in the same place. But without the inscription. It was erased.
    The first Buran, Izdeliye 1.01, died as a result of the collapse of the roof of the MIK on site 112 on May 15, 2002.
  56. The comment was deleted.
  57. The comment was deleted.
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  59. +1
    2 December 2023 04: 50
    We're not going anywhere. Barely disposable, but morally outdated (with the advent of reusable Falcons), the Angara was put into production... One Khokhloma on the unions. There’s nothing to say about exploring the open spaces...
  60. -1
    2 December 2023 07: 38
    "Does Russia need a new Buran"????? RUSSIA - YES!!!
    But in the foreseeable Future there will be no “blizzards”.
    The authorities have hucksters, but you can’t steal from Buran.
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. 0
    3 December 2023 13: 46
    We had a good Clipper project. Frozen
  63. 0
    4 December 2023 08: 40
    Of course you need.
    It is necessary for the car to fly on hybrid engines, both in near space and in airspace.
    In order to be able to fly to the extreme points of the earth as a base for creating space flights.
  64. 0
    4 December 2023 16: 34
    We need more than this
  65. -1
    5 December 2023 12: 28
    I think there’s a little time for this now, maybe we’ll win the war first?
  66. 0
    16 January 2024 08: 58
    Author! Is there REAL confirmation of the cost of 1500 bucks from Musk? Or is this from the words of... The mask itself?
  67. 0
    18 January 2024 06: 48
    Write an article so that the article is...
    No, we don’t need a snowstorm, this is a dead-end branch, to launch it a second time you need to do flaw detection of all components and replace many things, the price is more than half the cost of a new ship, only Soyuz and Progress are a real topic for space, all this is reusable, it’s a waste of money...
  68. 0
    25 January 2024 01: 55
    Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
    By the way, isn't Dream Chaser ripped off from Epic?


    From him.
    Reverse engineering.
    They do not hide it.
  69. -1
    17 February 2024 11: 28
    Many people call the Soviet Union a country of catching-up development. They say that Korolev copied the first intercontinental missile from the German V-2, and the Tu-4 strategic bomber was assembled using reverse engineering from the American B-29.
    Yes Yes. And they spied on the round wheel, and they slammed the radio and much more.
  70. 0
    16 March 2024 14: 38
    We need a whole complex of devices, an orbital station - a space tug - Buran - a lunar base