Elegant and original “Austrians”

84
Elegant and original “Austrians”


Having made my way under the roof,
brushing aside the lace of the cobwebs,
pulled out from a hidden corner
a heavy Mannlicher wrapped in rags.
Coming out of the barn and feeling it in my pocket
the exciting weight of a revolver,
went to the station.

N. Ostrovsky “How the steel was tempered”

stories about weapons. At the end of the XNUMXth and beginning of the XNUMXth centuries in different countries, many different designers worked tirelessly, trying to create “the best pistol in the world,” and each of them solved this problem in their own way.



In the same Germany, Luger and Mauser pistols were created with automatic action based on a short barrel stroke and magazines in the handle and in front of the trigger guard. In the USA and Belgium, thanks to the work of John Browning, pistols with a removable magazine in the handle appeared. Automation in them was most often used with a short stroke of the barrel linked to the bolt, and in pistols chambered for low-power cartridges, a free bolt was used, which a sufficiently powerful spring only pressed against the breech of the barrel.


Mannlicher pistol 1894 Royal Arsenal, Leeds

But no less interesting pistols were created at the same time in Austria, which was at that time part of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, and it was in this state that the pistol that was first put into service was created.

Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher was one of the first to create pistols here. Among his many works, the pistol of 1894 occupies a special place, since its design is very unusual: when fired, the bullet, crashing into the rifling of the barrel, pulls it along with it, the barrel moves forward, compresses the spring located around the barrel and ejects the spent cartridge case. Well, returning back, he simply loaded another cartridge from the magazine and... was ready for the next shot.

As for the trigger mechanism of the M1894 pistol, it had nothing to do with the automatic pistol and was cocked, like a revolver, manually, both by self-cocking and with pre-cocking of the hammer. And the hole for the trigger striker was made in the back wall of the frame.

Interestingly, like revolvers of that time, this pistol did not have a safety lock. To send a cartridge into the barrel, it had to be pushed forward, and its magazine, built into the handle, was loaded using special clips of five cartridges each.

The pistol received the cumbersome name Halbautomatische Repetierpistole Sistem Mannlicher M1894 (semi-automatic reloading pistol with a forward barrel and loading a clip of Mannlicher system cartridges, Model 1894), but it was released only in small quantities and was not put into service or commercial sale.


Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher (1848-1904)

In 1895, another designer, Czech Karel Krnka, presented his pistol. It had the same 8-mm caliber and the same built-in 10-round magazine, and even in appearance they were somewhat similar, but fundamentally different in design.


Pistol M1895. Right view. Note the checkering on the end of the barrel. In fact, it is not made on the barrel at all, but on a locking unscrewing coupling, which locks the return spring placed on the barrel itself. Army Museum in Stockholm

After the shot, the barrel and bolt, linked to each other, moved back together until it stopped, so that they even passed over the magazine receiver. Only after reaching the end, the bolt turned around its axis, disengaged from the barrel and remained in place for some time, while the barrel, pushed by a spring, moved forward and returned to its previous position. When the barrel stopped, the bolt began to move forward. At the same time, he sent the cartridge into the chamber, and then turned again in the opposite direction and engaged with the barrel. Well, the cartridge’s primer was broken by the firing pin, which was hit by the open trigger.


Karel Krnka (1858–1926)

It is interesting that at a time when automatic pistol magazines were filled with 5, 6, 7, 8 cartridges, and it was believed that this was quite enough, Karel’s grip magazine was filled with ten at once, and not just from a clip, but from a clip equipped for convenience special pusher.

Next was again the Mannlicher pistol, which, according to documents from the Steyr company, was patented in 1898 and was originally called the “Model 1900”, and somewhat later “Model 1901”. The cartridge used in the pistol was also the designer’s own design and differed from the 7,63 mm Mauser cartridge, since it would have been too powerful for a blowback system. It was a specially designed 7,63x21mm cartridge.

The Mannlicher cartridge case had a slight taper to make it easier for it to exit the chamber. The bullet weight was 5,5 g, the shell could be steel or copper-nickel alloy. The powder charge allowed it to develop an initial speed of 326 m/s.

The magazine was placed in the handle and loaded from the clip through the open bolt. Due to the extremely simple operation of the mechanism, this pistol had a handle of minimal size, which, by the way, was very similar to a revolver.

The mechanics of this pistol were also simple. Two protrusions on the receiver and, accordingly, two grooves for them on the bolt, which allowed it to move back and forth in relation to the barrel. The barrel was screwed into the receiver, that is, it was connected to it in one piece. There was a spring under the barrel that pressed the bolt to the chamber. There was a trigger behind the bolt. Inside the bolt there is a firing pin that transmits the hammer blow to the cartridge primer and... that’s it! It was also loaded from a clip that contained 10 rounds at once!


Commercial model of the Mannlicher-Steyr pistol, 1905. Note the knurled key on the handle. It had to be pressed to unload the magazine of a loaded pistol with the bolt open. The spring ejected the cartridges with sufficient force, which the shooter had to remember! Total length: 243 mm. Barrel length: 139 mm. Weight: 920 g. Magazine capacity – 10 rounds. Photography by Alain Dobress

The first army to equip the Mannlicher M1901 automatic pistols was the Argentine army, which adopted this pistol in 1905 along with the 7,63mm Mannlicher Automatic 7,63x52mm cartridge. Initial purchases included 1 pistols, over a million rounds of ammunition, as well as holsters and accessories. The Argentine military continued to order these beautiful pistols, and in total they bought about 020 of them.


Pistol holster 1901. Front view. Photo by Rock Island Auction Company

Many call this pistol “the most elegant pistol” of the early twentieth century. You may not agree with this statement, but you cannot help but note that it really looks very impressive.


Pistol M1896/1897. Photography Forgotten weapons


Pistol M1896/1897 with a holster-butt according to the fashion of those years. Photography Forgotten weapons

Mannlicher also developed the M1896/1897 pistol, which in appearance resembled the K96 Mauser. The pistol became known under the designation M1901/1903. It had a fixed magazine in front of the trigger for six rounds, but then it began to use a detachable magazine located in the same place, for the same six rounds. It was not widely used: because buyers were scared off by the curved cocking lever located on the right side of the body, which made it inconvenient for them to use. The death of the designer in 1904 interrupted his work in this direction.


But this is how the hammer of the M1896/1897 pistol was cocked and, in general, it was not very convenient. Photography Forgotten weapons

Well, Karel Krnka’s first truly great success came only after he began to work closely with the Austrian manufacturer and gunsmith Georg Roth and released the Roth-Steyr M1907 pistol (Repetierpistole M7), which entered service with the Austro-Hungarian cavalry . This circumstance turned out to be the best advertisement for this pistol. Although, in fact, this did not have a very strong impact on the fate of the designer himself.

The fact is that all of Krnk’s most successful pistols were produced under other people’s names, for example, “Rot-Sauer”, “Rot-Steyr”, “Steyr”, due to which the role of Krnk himself in their development was simply underestimated for quite a long time.

By the way, the pistol was named “Rot-Steyr” by the name of the city in which its production was established. Moreover, Georg Roth himself was engaged in the production of cartridges, so he was forced to sell licenses for the production of pistols created together with the inventor Karel Krnka to other manufacturers.


Pistol "Rot-Steyr" 1907. Photo by Alain Dobresse


Cartridge clip for the Rot-Steyr pistol. Photography by Alain Dobress

This pistol had a very unusual bolt, which had a length equal to the length of the receiver. The automatic pistol operated due to recoil with a short barrel stroke.

Locking occurred due to the rotation of the barrel, which had two pairs of lugs: the front one was located at the muzzle, moved along the screw grooves of the barrel casing and was responsible for its rotation during rollback and rollback; and the rear one - for the clutch with the bolt, which was hollow in the front part and slid onto the barrel from behind. The spent cartridge case was ejected through a window in the upper part of the receiver, and the cartridge was sent into the chamber when the bolt was returned to its original position, like all other pistols, except perhaps the Mannlicher 1894 model, where the barrel itself was pushed onto the cartridge.

The trigger mechanism was single action. After each shot, the firing pin was cocked, but only partially, and it was re-cocked only when the trigger was pressed. In case of misfire, it could be cocked manually by pulling the bolt back. Such a complex safety system was designed specifically so that the pistol could not fire from accidentally touching the trigger, from which a cavalryman sitting astride a horse that could simply push him under the arm could not be insured.

A 10-round magazine was built into the pistol grip, formed by the lower right part of the frame itself, the left detachable part and two cheeks. The pistol used a unique 8mm wafer cartridge, which gave the bullet an initial speed of 332 m/s. The length of the pistol was 233 mm, barrel length: 131 mm, weight without cartridges: 1 g.


Commercial model "Roth-Sauer" with the bolt extended. Photography by Alain Dobress

But Karel Krnk's most successful pistol was his Model 1911, which he developed based on an earlier design by Georg Roth.

It was a weapon with a short barrel stroke, which, under the influence of recoil, moved back along with the bolt, and the barrel rotated around its axis by about 20°. After disengaging from the barrel, the bolt continued to move back and removed the spent cartridge case. When the barrel returned to its original position, a new cartridge was sent by the bolt into the chamber. The magazine was built into the handle and could be removed when disassembling the pistol.

The pistol was reliable and of very high quality. After the annexation of Austria by Germany in 1938, the German army received large numbers of these pistols as trophies. Many of them were converted by Mauser to chamber the standard 9 mm Parabellum cartridge.


1911 Steyr pistol. Like any other weapon intended for the needs of the army, Steyr pistols of the 1911 model were supplied with pistol straps and holsters. Photography by Alain Dobress


Partial disassembly of a 1911 model pistol. The spiral protrusion on the barrel is clearly visible, thanks to which it rotates inside the bolt casing. Photography by Alain Dobress


Pistol "Steyr" model 1912. Photography by Alain Dobress


And this is how a clip of cartridges was inserted into this pistol, which were then pressed into the magazine by pressing a finger on a special grooved “pusher”. And judging by the way Forgotten weapons' Ian McCollum struggles with loading it, it wasn't always an easy task. While you are fiddling with the clip like this, they can easily kill you! True, his clip is not original, metal, but made of plastic

PS


As for the fact that Nikolai Ostrovsky’s “Mannlicher” pistol was called a “revolver,” although Manlicher never created revolvers, then... nothing can be done about it. At that time, in the literature, a pistol was very often called a revolver and vice versa. It was more important to show the feelings and actions of the characters!

By the way, Ostrovsky’s “Manlicher” had twelve rounds, and these were never produced either - the capacity of the “Manlicher” magazine was 10 rounds. Well, the man forgot... He only remembered that there were a lot of cartridges in it!
84 comments
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  1. +4
    22 November 2023 04: 40
    Thank you so much!
    Looking at the delights of Austrian designers, an obvious thought came to mind - sometimes originality can be fatal! There is no Austro-Hungarian Empire and the topic remains “behind the scenes” of most curious people.
    Have a nice day everyone, with respect to Kote!
    1. +5
      22 November 2023 05: 59
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      There is no Austro-Hungarian Empire and the topic remains “behind the scenes”

      The Empire is long gone, but there is a gun Glock, developed by its successor - Austria...
      1. +6
        22 November 2023 08: 36
        Wow, after such a riot of colors, to come to a gun with a shoebox design...
        1. +4
          22 November 2023 08: 57
          Quote: novel xnumx
          come to the gun with shoebox design

          Are you interested in the appearance or its characteristics?
          1. +1
            22 November 2023 09: 25
            I’m a peaceful person, appearance is more important to me, I don’t need to shoot for accuracy and speed, but it would be interesting to shoot with such a handsome guy
          2. +1
            4 January 2024 08: 26
            I don’t know why everyone is praying for Glock. I didn't like shooting at all. I shot with 4 models. For me the CZ75 Compact is better
            1. +1
              4 January 2024 10: 33
              Quote: Mikhail Ya2
              I shot with 4 models

              And over the years of service, I have been from Makarov several times... wink
            2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +5
        22 November 2023 19: 45
        Quote: Luminman
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        There is no Austro-Hungarian Empire and the topic remains “behind the scenes”

        The Empire is long gone, but there is a gun Glock, developed by its successor - Austria...

        Well, many people frolicked on the ruins of the dual monarchy. For example: Czechs with CZ22 or Hungarians FEG37.

        FEG37M

        CZ27
        Both took part in the Second World War.
  2. +5
    22 November 2023 06: 31
    I read the epigraph and for some reason I remembered:
    Colonel Friedrich Kraus von Zillergut (Zillergut--
    the name of a village in Salzburg, which the ancestors of the colonel
    drank back in the eighteenth century) was a rare idiot.
    ... At regimental reviews he loved to talk with the soldiers and always asked them the same question: why are the rifles introduced into the army called
    "Manlicherovka"?
    In the regiment they spoke about him with ridicule: “Well, he’s ruined his manlicherovin!”
    (J. Hasek. "The Adventures of the Good Soldier Svejk")
    1. +4
      22 November 2023 06: 45
      Quote: Amateur
      Colonel Friedrich Kraus von Zillergut

      - A fly got into the inkwell. It's a mess when a fly gets into an inkwell. Do you know what an inkwell is? wink

      P.S. You can read this endlessly...
    2. +4
      22 November 2023 07: 09
      Quote: Amateur
      was a rare idiot

      Victor! This happened not only then... An example of 1984. Department of History of the CPSU of the Penza Polytechnic Institute. It’s just November, just like today. The young assistant arrived from Moscow in fashionable shoes at the time - dinosaur boots, reminiscent of tires from a Kamaz quarry truck, and the tops were lined with white fur. Gorgeous thing! One retired colonel, candidate of historical sciences, associate professor looks and says: Why are you, young man, encouraging foreign industry? We need to buy domestic shoes!" The young man replies: "They only put them in the coffin in the boots from our Kuznetsk factory!" A month passes... The same colonel and his colleague of the same rank. The first: "And I married my son! I bought him as a gift.... and Yugoslav sheets. The quality is amazing!" The second one actively agrees. The young assistant is present and says loudly in front of everyone, including women: "Oh, how interesting! So your son can f... on Yugoslav sheets, but I can’t walk in Yugoslav shoes!?" You should have seen how he blushed in embarrassment and began to mutter something. It was a disgusting sight. I also inserted this episode into the novel.
      1. +7
        22 November 2023 08: 12
        An example from 1984. Department of History of the CPSU
        There was a competition for these departments. By the beginning of the 80s, the last adequate teachers of this subject had already died out and this happened. But how frantically they spoke from the podium!
        1. +2
          22 November 2023 09: 23
          Quote: Aviator_
          But how frantically they spoke from the podium!

          Here, Sergey, you are 100% right. I always (and then too) didn’t like it when people “go too far.” I always thought that the effect was the opposite. Not everyone read lectures like that. But many. There was a funny detail here. The workers were ASKED what kind of lecturer they wanted. And lecturers from the department, since they participated in social competition, had to give at least 4 lectures per month. Yes, they didn’t need more. They were paid 10 rubles. for lecture Military pension plus 320 rub. Associate Professor - enough to live on. And I (I had 125 rubles) had 20 lectures a month (5 rubles per lecture). Therefore, you had to read in such a way that you would be remembered and invited. That is, the opinion of the people was taken into account and there was an incentive to try. But... on official holidays all lecturers were required to read official topics. But it was very difficult to make such a topic interesting. And no liberties. Partog was present and would immediately report where necessary... about deviations made by the lecturer. This was the “behind the scenes” of it.
          1. +4
            22 November 2023 18: 08
            Military pension plus 320 rub. Associate Professor - enough to live on.
            With a military pension of 320 rubles, there was no assistant professor; there was a ceiling on total income (approximately 300 rubles). above which they no longer paid. How do I know - in the 60-70s my father read psychology and pedagogy at the Orenburg Anti-Aircraft School, receiving a military pension of 182 rubles.
            1. -1
              23 November 2023 18: 06
              Quote: Aviator_
              How do I know -

              Well, I couldn't know that.
        2. +2
          22 November 2023 09: 26
          Quote: Aviator_
          There was a competition for these departments.

          I waited two years for them to take me. For a year I was an hourly worker, and only after that they held a competition. We hired the best of the best, proven and loyal!
      2. -2
        26 November 2023 22: 52
        Such a complex safety system was designed specifically so that the pistol could not fire from accidentally touching the trigger, from which a cavalryman sitting astride a horse that could simply push him under the arm could not be insured.

        Drug addict? If you are riding a horse, how can it push you?
        In general, did you see a horse, sit, ride...?

        I have a hippodrome behind a fence and sometimes I bring horses, more often I keep an eye on them.
        The girls are world-class athletes and coaches. Aren't you afraid? No, my bunnies, it’s like my cat, only a little bigger. You won’t let me ride a horse... Because my weight is more than a hundredweight.
        Grandfather - shall we go feed the horses? Yes, granddaughter - carrots, apples...
      3. 0
        4 December 2023 12: 13
        Quote: kalibr
        during a shot, the bullet, crashing into the rifling of the barrel, pulls it along with it,

        A wrong opinion that goes from book to book. The force pushing the bolt forward is the pressure of the powder gases on the “belt” of the chamber profile parts around the barrel. Formally, this is “the difference in the pressure force of the powder gases on the cartridge case back and the pressure force on the barrel area.” It works with low-quality cartridges that are necessarily bottle-shaped. And it very critically depends on the elasticity of the cartridge case and the combustion schedule of the gunpowder.
      4. +1
        18 March 2024 00: 39
        so that it is clear to everyone - we are talking about boots, which actually had tractor soles and edges.
  3. +3
    22 November 2023 06: 47
    The Steyr 1912 is a gorgeous pistol with superb mechanics, it’s a pity that after WWII the design was not developed.
  4. 0
    22 November 2023 07: 45
    Custom pro-Western article. To write about Austrian pistols and not once remember about the outstanding Fedorov assault rifle chambered for an almost intermediate cartridge... “This is some kind of shame!”
    1. +13
      22 November 2023 07: 50
      Write about Austrian pistols and never remember about the outstanding Fedorov assault rifle under

      And not a word about the steam locomotive of the Cherepanov brothers, not to mention the plane of General Mozhaisky. Truly “shame” and admiration for the West! wassat lol
    2. +1
      22 November 2023 07: 59
      Quote: Amazoniy
      under an almost intermediate cartridge..

      So, in the previous article about the “Sturmgever” we found out that this “almost intermediate cartridge” was even more powerful than a standard rifle with a welt. But... I appreciated your humor. Thank you! The minus is not mine! On the contrary - + put.
      1. +4
        22 November 2023 08: 14
        Seriously, I liked the article, informative, without boring, with good photos. And apparently my joke didn’t turn out very well. Anyway. I have a philosophical attitude towards the minuses (you still have to earn it), it’s worse when the comment remains unanswered and without evaluation. So it was written in vain.
      2. +3
        22 November 2023 08: 38
        As always - thank you, although here
        7,63 mm cartridge Mannlicher Automatic 7,63x52 mm.

        This.... Hardly.. (C)
        1. +2
          22 November 2023 09: 37
          Of course not - correct: 7,63x21 mm. It's good that you noticed!
    3. +4
      22 November 2023 13: 44
      And not a word about the intermediate cartridge.
      Not to mention the commander's cupola on the T-34.
      A shame!
      1. -1
        22 November 2023 16: 07
        Quote: Seamaster
        And not a word about the intermediate cartridge.
        Not to mention the commander's cupola on the T-34.
        A shame!

        By the way, I started looking for materials on Fedorovka and found a number of facts that he borrowed a lot from those who came before him. And in the same Chei-Rigotti rifle, an almost intermediate cartridge was used, and it is this, and not the Fedorov assault rifle or even the Gever, that lays claim to primacy in the ranks of “assault rifles.” But this is still “in progress”.
  5. +3
    22 November 2023 09: 02
    The phrase was pleasing:
    Well, going back, he just impaled for another cartridge from the store and...

    The doctor ordered friction! (c) film Adrenaline with Statham

    Z.Y. Well I couldn't resist feel ...I just almost choked on my tea when I read it lol good Pass!!! You made my morning! good

    Z.Y.Y. In weapons literature, the verb “approaches” is usually used
    1. +1
      22 November 2023 09: 30
      Alexei! Well, I read weapons literature... I read a lot. And I know about “impending”. But... I write for people, and not for “weapons literature,” but for a popular website. I thought... "getting stuck" would be more interesting. And I was not mistaken! Yesterday I wrote in a reply to Vladimir that sometimes we deliberately write “a little wrong.” But he thought that they were writing lies. But in fact... it’s like this - “a little bit to the side” for a good mood. There will be someone to write “instructions” with technical characteristics and without me.
      1. +2
        22 November 2023 10: 23
        Well, sometimes I write with jokes, otherwise it’s boring lol
        ZY Yes, I lost some of them unread, and there (in that topic) such a footcloth has already formed... that you can’t track it with your eyes. recourse
  6. +6
    22 November 2023 09: 31
    Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher was one of the first to create pistols here.

    It would still be unfair not to mention those who were the very first to create pistols in Austria - Archduke Karl Salvator and Count Georg von Dormus. Yet their Salvator Dormus Semiautomatic Pistol model 1891 is considered the first of the patented self-loading pistols.



    This pistol was not accepted into service, but it clearly influenced all subsequent Austrian designs.
    1. +2
      22 November 2023 10: 20
      Yet their Salvator Dormus Semiautomatic Pistol model 1891 is considered the first of the patented self-loading pistols.
      I already wrote about Dormus here. And I would like to write more, but I don’t have the necessary information yet. I recently received a photo of a Laumann-Schrodinger pistol from Vienna... One would think that we were corresponding about Porsche...
      1. +6
        22 November 2023 10: 31
        photo of Laumann-Schrodinger pistol

        Probably still Schönberger-Laumann. And Schrödinger is the physicist who proposed the cat experiment.
        1. +3
          22 November 2023 11: 32
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Schönberger-Laumann (

          Sometimes I answer in a hurry... I write another text and answer. There is no time for a separate, thoughtful process.
  7. +5
    22 November 2023 10: 05
    In 1895, another designer, Czech Karel Krnka, presented his pistol.
    ...
    After the shot, the barrel and bolt, linked to each other, moved back together until it stopped, so that they even passed over the magazine receiver.

    This is an automatic circuit with a long barrel stroke. By the way, Karel Krnka was a talented designer, but his design clearly shows the influence of the pistol of the Austrian inventor Wasa Theodorovic, whose patents and prototypes were acquired by George Roth.



    The pistols of Teodorovic and Krnka are similar not only externally, but also “internally”, so much so that the Roth-Krnka M1895 pistol, apparently, is simply a Roth-Theodorovic pistol improved by Karel Krnka.
  8. +5
    22 November 2023 10: 24
    By the way, the Austrians designed not only the first semi-automatic pistol, but also a commercial pistol of the smallest caliber - the 2.7mm Kolibri Car Pistol.





    This pistol was designed by Viennese watchmaker Franz Pfannl in 1910. Moreover, it was positioned precisely as a weapon of self-defense for women. Production began in 1914, but only 1000 copies were produced before the outbreak of World War I.
    1. +3
      22 November 2023 10: 40
      With this pistol you can really anger an attacker...
      1. +1
        22 November 2023 13: 23
        You won't even shoot yourself lol
        Quote from solar
        With this pistol you can really anger an attacker...
  9. +2
    22 November 2023 11: 12
    “It was not widely used: because buyers were scared off by the curved cocking lever located on the right side of the body, which made it inconvenient for them to use.”

    Judging by the photo, it was made for a left-hander. It seemed impossible to cock the hammer with the right hand.
    1. +3
      22 November 2023 11: 34
      Quote: S.Z.
      It seemed impossible to cock the hammer with the right hand.

      No, it cocks, but it’s very inconvenient.
    2. +5
      22 November 2023 14: 34
      It was not widely used: because buyers were scared off by the curved cocking lever located on the right side of the body, which made it inconvenient for them to use. "

      Judging by the photo, it was made for a left-hander. It seemed impossible to cock the hammer with the right hand.

      This is not a cocking lever, since this pistol has no trigger at all. This is a kind of bolt stop that allows you to fix the bolt for loading a magazine from a clip.

      Watch from 7.11.
      1. +3
        22 November 2023 16: 04
        It’s logical - to reload, the pistol is transferred to the left hand, and the clip is inserted with the right.
      2. +2
        22 November 2023 17: 14
        Quote: Dekabrist
        This is a kind of bolt stop that allows you to fix the bolt for loading a magazine from a clip.

        I don’t dare to argue, especially since I read that this is not a cocked gun, but I don’t like something in this description either. A kind of... delay... can you somehow... formulate it not so vaguely? Below I have provided descriptions of what I found.
  10. +1
    22 November 2023 12: 12
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: S.Z.
    It seemed impossible to cock the hammer with the right hand.

    No, it cocks, but it’s very inconvenient.


    In the photo the pistol is in the left hand, I can’t imagine which finger to cock the hammer of this pistol if it is in the right. Perhaps I lack imagination :)
    1. +4
      22 November 2023 12: 47
      Quote: S.Z.
      Perhaps I lack imagination:

      I looked at the photo and picked up the pistol that I have at home. I tried it... and really. You're right. It's not just inconvenient! There are not enough fingers!
      1. +4
        22 November 2023 14: 36
        I looked at the photo and picked up the pistol that I have at home. I tried it... and really. You're right. It's not just inconvenient! There are not enough fingers!

        It's not the lack of fingers and imagination, but the knowledge. A good illustration of yesterday’s discussion about the need for specialized education. I included a video in the comment above, take a look.
        1. -2
          22 November 2023 15: 25
          Quote: Dekabrist
          A good illustration for yesterday’s discussion about the need for specialized education

          Would you mind sending me a scan of your diploma? I can give you the number in private - I'll try good
          1. +2
            22 November 2023 15: 28
            Would you mind sending me a scan of your diploma?

            I can suggest ears from a dead donkey or sleeves from a vest. The donut hole will be a bonus.
            1. -2
              22 November 2023 15: 48
              Keep it for yourself winked There will be something to see and something to practice on. good
        2. 0
          22 November 2023 16: 11
          Quote: Dekabrist
          It's not the lack of fingers and imagination, but the knowledge.

          What kind of knowledge is needed here when Ian is holding a gun with his LEFT hand, and we are talking about his RIGHT HAND. I watched it from 7.11 - left hand. Why can’t you tell your left hand from your right?
        3. 0
          22 November 2023 16: 49
          Quote: Dekabrist
          It's not the lack of fingers and imagination, but the knowledge.

          You said it well, Victor. But knowledge is gained from books and the Internet. And there, in a number of publications, and on the website of very large companies selling weapons, it is written - “cocking lever ... trigger.” Unfortunately, I didn’t hold this gun in my hands. See Ian McCollum? Why, when everything is written? And he... doesn’t have a halo on his head.
          1. +2
            22 November 2023 19: 12
            See Ian McCollum? What for

            To see how to use the gun and lever.
  11. +1
    22 November 2023 12: 53
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: S.Z.
    Perhaps I lack imagination:

    I looked at the photo and picked up the pistol that I have at home. I tried it... and really. You're right. It's not just inconvenient! There are not enough fingers!


    Actually, I tried the same thing, and with the same result. But suddenly I don’t know something...

    Maybe the photo is a “mirror”, then it is clear that in fact the trigger was on the left and not on the right. But if the description says “on the right,” it means on the right.

    Another option - the lever could be rearranged, like the handle on a spinning reel - for the right or left hand. This is, of course, just speculation.
    1. +2
      22 November 2023 13: 25
      Quote: S.Z.
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: S.Z.
      Perhaps I lack imagination:

      I looked at the photo and picked up the pistol that I have at home. I tried it... and really. You're right. It's not just inconvenient! There are not enough fingers!


      Actually, I tried the same thing, and with the same result. But suddenly I don’t know something...

      Maybe the photo is a “mirror”, then it is clear that in fact the trigger was on the left and not on the right. But if the description says “on the right,” it means on the right.

      Another option - the lever could be rearranged, like the handle on a spinning reel - for the right or left hand. This is, of course, just speculation.

      Could not. I have a double sided photo. Only on the right!
      Look...

      1. +1
        22 November 2023 14: 17
        Strange, obviously for a left-hander. There is no slot for a screwdriver.
        The holster is also on the right side.

        This little thing on the left, above the trigger, is probably the safety. It's right under your right hand.

        In general, the ergonomics let us down.
        1. +2
          22 November 2023 14: 37
          In general, the ergonomics let us down.

          It’s not the ergonomics that let us down, it’s the author’s qualifications that let us down.
          1. 0
            22 November 2023 15: 19
            Quote: Dekabrist
            In general, the ergonomics let us down.

            It’s not the ergonomics that let us down, it’s the author’s qualifications that let us down.


            I.e?
            I was modestly interested in how to cock the trigger with the other hand - well, there is correspondence above.
            1. +5
              22 November 2023 15: 33
              I was modestly interested in how to cock the trigger with the other hand

              This pistol does not have a trigger.
              1. +1
                22 November 2023 23: 16
                Judging by the video, there is a trigger there. Hidden. And this lever is on the side, just for cocking it. See 11:27. Well, that's a plus
        2. +4
          22 November 2023 14: 47
          This little thing on the left, above the trigger, is probably the safety.

          The weapon does not have such a detail as a “pump”. And the safety on this pistol is on the back, so to speak. Shown with an arrow in the photo.

          1. 0
            22 November 2023 15: 16
            Well, if you don’t like the pimp, let it be crap.
            Just don’t say that there are no bad things on the gun - any device contains them!
            If it's not a fuse, then what is? Magazine release button?
            1. +2
              22 November 2023 15: 26
              If it's not a fuse, then what is?

              Well, you could stomp your foot to give the issue some seriousness. But not on your own? Would you like me to download the original instructions that came with the gun? If you are Deutsch sprechen, you will understand everything without any problems.
              1. +2
                22 November 2023 16: 14
                Quote: Dekabrist
                If it's not a fuse, then what is?

                Well, you could stomp your foot to give the issue some seriousness. But not on your own? Would you like me to download the original instructions that came with the gun? If you are Deutsch sprechen, you will understand everything without any problems.

                In any case, whether it is a trigger or a lever, you CANNOT use it with your right hand. This is what we're talking about!
                1. +1
                  22 November 2023 16: 21
                  On the "Weapons and Ammunition" website it is written: To cock the hammer, there was a curved lever on the right side of the body.
                  1. +1
                    22 November 2023 16: 32
                    Quote: kalibr
                    On the "Weapons and Ammunition" website it is written: To cock the hammer, there was a curved lever on the right side of the body.

                    Here's the description: The safety lever was very large; in addition, the lever had practically no locking; there were even no recesses on the pistol frame, although this could partially solve the problem. When the lever was lifted up, the safety was turned on, and the location of the lever was very inconvenient, so when putting the weapon into the holster, you could accidentally remove the pistol from the safety, which could have dire consequences.
                    1. +1
                      22 November 2023 16: 41
                      But this is what was written in the description of this pistol at the Rock Island Auction - that’s where I took it from, correcting it: "checkered" cocking lever on the right side of the frame, What is cocked in a pistol if not the bolt? It's sad that such a serious arms company didn't know that this was a safety lever.
                    2. +2
                      22 November 2023 17: 20
                      Well, thank God, the world has become more logical. I just couldn’t believe such a monstrous mistake by the designer.
                      This lever is a safety lever, which, of course, is inconvenient, but not so fatal.
                2. +3
                  22 November 2023 19: 10
                  In any case, whether it is a trigger or a lever, you CANNOT use it with your right hand. This is what we're talking about!

                  No problem if you hold the gun in your left hand.
              2. +2
                22 November 2023 17: 17
                No, in German it’s niht ferstein, alas. I didn’t stomp my foot, I was just modestly interested. If I stamp, will you answer?
  12. +1
    22 November 2023 14: 10
    Original, yes, but about elegance winked
  13. 0
    22 November 2023 15: 30
    For me, the Steyer-Mannlicher M1901 is the most beautiful pistol.
    1. +2
      22 November 2023 16: 30
      And for me PSM laughing .... you need to look not by beauty, but by the ability to use and opportunities. And in terms of beauty - well, I would say Browning HP and Beretta 92
  14. 0
    22 November 2023 17: 22
    Quote: Dekabrist
    This little thing on the left, above the trigger, is probably the safety.

    The weapon does not have such a detail as a “pump”. And the safety on this pistol is on the back, so to speak. Shown with an arrow in the photo.



    The respected Author has just dispelled all doubts about the lever on the right - it is the safety lever.

    It’s unlikely that a fuse requires 2 control levers...
    1. +2
      22 November 2023 18: 10
      The respected Author has just dispelled all doubts about the lever on the right - it is the safety lever.

      The author did not dispel any doubts. Let me state it again - the lever on the right is a bolt stop, which serves to fix the bolt in the rearmost position when equipping a non-replaceable magazine from clips. Or too lazy to watch the video?
  15. +2
    22 November 2023 18: 47
    Quote: Luminman
    Quote: Amateur
    Colonel Friedrich Kraus von Zillergut

    - A fly got into the inkwell. It's a mess when a fly gets into an inkwell. Do you know what an inkwell is? wink
    P.S. You can read this endlessly...

    I completely agree. How many times have I read this novel by Hasek, I always enjoyed the humor and irony. There is always, however, a share of bitterness in the narrative. Both in the unfinished last lines of the novel and in the story about the lucky and obnoxious Zillergut:
    “Why bring prisoners here?” he said. “Shoot them all! No mercy! Dance among the corpses! And burn the civilian population of Serbia, every last person. Finish off the children with bayonets.”
  16. 0
    22 November 2023 21: 33
    As always with this author - very interesting.
    But from my point of view, there are big problems with the elegance of Austrian pistols. They're just some kind of freaks compared to the Mauser and Luger. More or less looks like Steir 1911. Although on “Taste and Color...”.....
  17. -1
    23 November 2023 07: 56
    Quote: Dekabrist
    The respected Author has just dispelled all doubts about the lever on the right - it is the safety lever.

    The author did not dispel any doubts. Let me state it again - the lever on the right is a bolt stop, which serves to fix the bolt in the rearmost position when equipping a non-replaceable magazine from clips. Or too lazy to watch the video?


    Well, now even I understand, thank you. Thank you without irony.

    I didn’t hold many pistols in my hands, but I was involved in engineering in the sense that I had to come up with something. It was not a weapon, but the principles were the same - you don’t need two controls for one function (unless you need a reserve), you can’t do something that can’t be used.

    So, as a former engineer, I had a bit of cognitive dissonance when I saw a gun that couldn't be cocked with the right hand. Moreover, for serial weapons.

    Everything is clearly visible in the video, only it appeared later. The author of the video, as far as I understand, is talking about a “locker”, a lock, a shutter.

    The design idea is quite clear, the disassembly method was even amazing. The lever, however, looks very unusual.
    1. -1
      23 November 2023 18: 10
      Sergey! Do you want to laugh? A friend of mine just sent me a book in English. about Manliherv rifles and pistols. A serious monographic publication with a lot of drawings and diagrams. And there it is written about “our pistol”:
      1. Right side view with action closed and arm uncocked. The side lever above the trigger is cocking device attached to the hammer which is inside the receiver. Pushing this lever down to the rear cocks the hammer. The lever shuttles during automatic operation. The small thumb-piece projecting from the rear of the receiver is the manual safety.
      This arm was actually in manufacture in 1396. It was not generally known or sold In the world market however until 1903 at which time it was chambered for A cartridge known as the “7.63mm Maonlicher.” Mauser 7.63mm ammunition should not be used in this pistol, a$ it is too powerful for the design, though the Mauser cartridge will chamber In It.
      but were normally loaded with a strip-in clip through the top of the action. However, these can be reloaded by withdrawing and filling the magazine. This later 7.63 mm pistol normally uses 6-cartridgcs in double staggered rows.)
      View from the right, the shutter is closed, the handle is not cocked. The side lever above the trigger is a cocking device attached to the hammer located inside the receiver. Pushing this lever back cocks the hammer. The lever moves during automatic operation. A small finger protruding from the rear of the receiver is the manual safety. This weapon was actually produced in 1896. However, it was not widely known or sold on the world market until 1903, when it was chambered for the A cartridge, known as the "7,63mm Mahonlicher". This pistol should not use 7,63mm Mauser ammunition as it is too powerful for this design, although the Mauser cartridge will work fine in this pistol, but was typically loaded with a strip clip through the top of the slide. However, they can be reloaded by removing and filling the magazine. This later 7,63mm pistol typically uses 6 rounds in two staggered rows.)
      Really funny ?!
      1. +1
        24 November 2023 07: 51
        Good afternoon.

        Both you and Dekabrist, in my eyes, are respected authors of this site (it’s because of such authors that I recently registered on this site, don’t take it as flattery). The video above from Dekabrist convincingly shows how the lever works - like a bolt release. Very logical.

        At the same time, I cannot question your source - I am not an expert.

        I can only quote Kozma Prutkov.
        “If you see the inscription “buffalo” on a cage with a lion, don’t believe your eyes” (c)
  18. 0
    26 November 2023 23: 43
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Amazoniy
    under an almost intermediate cartridge..

    So, in the previous article about the “Sturmgever” we found out that this “almost intermediate cartridge” was even more powerful than a standard rifle with a welt. But... I appreciated your humor. Thank you! The minus is not mine! On the contrary - + put.


    Did you find out anything in the last episode?
    The fact that the Fedorov cartridge has less muzzle energy than 7,62x39 and is half as much as the Mosinka cartridge in recoil impulse?
  19. +1
    26 November 2023 23: 49
    Quote: tolancop
    As always with this author - very interesting.
    But from my point of view, there are big problems with the elegance of Austrian pistols. They're just some kind of freaks compared to the Mauser and Luger. More or less looks like Steir 1911. Although on “Taste and Color...”.....

    PPK-Etalon. XC27 is quite... Makar is a classic of the genre. PSM - top. But not for the fierce military.
  20. 0
    14 December 2023 15: 47
    And what’s so elegant about them, they’re some kind of freaks.
  21. 0
    27 December 2023 19: 28
    Friends, this is my grandfather's gun. I don't know if it's a 1911 or a twelve. In 1938, he went to mobilization with this pistol, returned home and threw everything into the chest. When he died in 1962, I found the gun in excellent condition, dry and oiled. I can only say one thing: my friends and I shot at a local brick factory because there was enough ammunition. Unfortunately, a week later the gun was “surrendered” to the police and I received 2 for behavior. Nothing survives, just a few photographs of a small boy with a large gun. My grandmother was a devoted woman and that's why I survived: I didn't have to go to reform school, but after finishing primary school I joined the military. am e school. . But I call this gun grandpa's. am