"Sturmgever" from the "fascist coffin"

327
"Sturmgever" from the "fascist coffin"
StG 44 from the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore. Left view. The bolt handle and the bolt itself are missing. Author's photo



Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn?
It is not clear.
Get me a gun
Find me a gun,
Buy me a machine.
And that's that.

Chorus:
Believe me, means known
So that finally everything at once fell into place.
No one will say anything bad, but who decides to say
Immediately and immediately fall.

“Why Do the Stars Burn”, song from the movie “Dear Boy” (1974)
music D. Tukhmanova
sl. L. Derbeneva

stories about weapons. History, associated with the StG 44 (short for Sturmgewehr 44, “assault rifle 44”), a German assault rifle designed during World War II by none other than Hugo Schmeisser, for me personally began with the fact that while I was applying for a job After going to college from the village, my wife went to work as an employee of the regional local history museum. To the mass department, that is, to take excursions around the museum. But I must say that the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore... it is big. Two floors, several spacious halls, one of which was dedicated to the Great Patriotic War. There stood a symbolic “coffin of fascism”, covered with glass on top, in which lay defeated banners, “iron crosses” and samples of German weapons, and in particular “Sturmgever-44”. But for some reason, very few museum visitors knew that this was a “gewer.” Or rather... no one knew! Because almost no excursion was complete without the question: “Why did you put a Kalashnikov assault rifle there?” It’s good that after the first time my wife told me about it, and I informed him what and how for the future. And... people stood and listened literally with their mouths open, the situation with information on the history of weapons was so unsatisfactory then.

In those previous years, I didn’t even dream of having this “coffin” opened for me, so that I could hold this “gewer” in my hands, and there was no question of photographing it. But the years have passed, the waters have flown under the bridge, the exhibition has been redesigned, and the “coffin of fascism” has been converted into a simple showcase. Fortunately, the attitude towards, well, let’s say, me personally has also changed. So I was finally able to hold the StG 44 in my hands, evaluate its convenience and photograph it both for an article on VO and for my future book.



So now I can talk about it, not only retelling information gleaned from various sources, but also relying on my own impressions, which, in my opinion, should always be strived for.

Let's start with the “general history” of the StG 44 and remind our readers that it was the first successful assault rifle. Moreover, its features such as an intermediate cartridge, a more compact design than that of a conventional rifle, and a shorter barrel, as well as its intended purpose for hitting targets at a distance of several hundred meters, have forever become defining for this type of weapon. Other rifles of the time were designed to hit targets over a thousand meters away, but this turned out to exceed the range at which combat was actually fought.

Moreover, the StG 44 fulfilled its role quite effectively, especially on the Eastern Front, providing infantry with an increased volume of fire compared to standard infantry rifles. So it's not surprising that the StG was heavily influenced by the Soviet AK-47, which was introduced two years after the end of the war. But, it is clear that the latter was never a copy of it. However, no one denied that the influence of the StG can still be seen in modern assault rifles, which after World War II became the main type of weapon of the modern armed forces, and in our USSR they were called “automatic”. The different names for this "machine gun": MP 43, MP 44 and StG 44, were the result of the complex bureaucracy in Nazi Germany. It was developed on the basis of the Mkb 42(H) “carbine-submachine gun” and, in fact, combined the characteristics of a carbine, submachine gun and automatic rifle. According to one version, the name Sturmgewehr was personally chosen by Adolf Hitler for propaganda reasons, although there are sources that dispute that Hitler had anything to do with it, except perhaps for signing the order for adoption.


StG 44 from the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore. Right view

But the English translation of the name “assault rifle” has become the generally accepted designation for this type of infantry small arms. The new Gever was chambered for the 7,92x33mm Kurz cartridge, which was a shortened version of the German standard 7,92x57mm Mauser rifle cartridge. This provided him with a compromise between the firepower of the MP40 submachine gun at close range with the accuracy and power of the 98k rifle at medium ranges.

Although the StG 44 had less range and power than more powerful infantry rifles, combat experience showed that few of the combat engagements took place at a distance of more than 300 meters, and most were within 200 meters, at most. It is clear that powerful rifle cartridges capable of sending a bullet over a distance of 2000 meters or more were completely unnecessary in these conditions. Only a specially trained specialist, such as a sniper, or soldiers armed with machine guns, could take full advantage of the range and power of a standard rifle cartridge. True, the British were skeptical about the new German weapon, stating that its receiver could be easily bent and the bolt locked by simply hitting the butt on a hard floor.

In the US at the end of the war the StG 44 was derided as "mediocre", "cumbersome" and "inconvenient". It was claimed that it was not capable of continuous automatic fire because it was prone to jamming, although the test report admitted that its accuracy was “excellent” for a weapon of this type.


StG 44 without a magazine, but with a belt. The handle pads are also intact. Photography by Alain Dobress

It is interesting that the need to create an intermediate cartridge between a rifle and a pistol was talked about even when the French, using their Lebel rifles, hit the rebellious natives in Madagascar from a distance of 2000 m. So this type of ammunition was considered back in 1892, but the military at that time time were focused on increasing the maximum firing range and bullet speed of rifles and did not pay attention to this.

Early in 1918, Hauptmann Piderit, a member of the Gewehrprüfungskommission ("Small Arms Review Committee") of the German General Staff in Berlin, presented a document arguing for the introduction of an intermediate cartridge into the German army along with suitable firearms. He noted that firefights rarely occurred at a distance of more than 800 meters, which is about half the line-of-sight range of the 7,92x57mm cartridge of the standard German Mauser rifle, or less for the MG08 machine gun.

A smaller, shorter, less powerful round would allow industry to save materials and allow soldiers to carry more ammunition. Less recoil would have made it possible to use semi-automatic or even fully automatic rifles with selectable fire modes, although in his article he called this new weapon a Maschinenpistole (submachine gun). But the German army showed no interest in his proposals, since it already had an MP18 submachine gun that fired 9-mm pistol cartridges, and did not want to create a new cartridge. However, already in 1923, the German army approved the requirements for replacing the Gever 98. The new model of infantry weapon was supposed to be smaller in size and lighter in weight than the Mauser, and should have similar characteristics when firing at a range of up to 400 meters and a magazine with a capacity of 20 or even 30 rounds.

The Bavarian company Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoff (RWS) began developing intermediate cartridges for such weapons already in the 1920s, and German companies also showed interest in developing intermediate ammunition for aviation machine guns. However, development of the future infantry rifle began only in the 1930s. RWS offered two cartridges for it: one with a 7 mm caliber bullet and one with an 8 mm caliber bullet, both in a 46 mm diameter case. The German company Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken offered a 7x39,1 mm cartridge, and Gustav Genschow & Co (Geco) offered a 7,75x39,5 mm cartridge, for which they even manufactured the A35 automatic carbine, which became a further development of the earlier SG29 semi-automatic rifle . However, this weapon turned out to be difficult and unsafe to use.


The same machine gun with a belt. Right view. Photography by Alain Dobress

Shortly after this, the German government in April 1938 commissioned the ammunition manufacturer Polte from Magdeburg to develop a new type of cartridge, after which they signed a contract with the Heereswaffenamt (HWA). HWA, in turn, entered into a contract with the company CG Haenel from Suhl to develop weapons for a new cartridge. It was decided that it should have the same shooting accuracy out to 400 meters as the 98k carbine, but at the same time have a rate of fire of up to 450 rounds per minute, fire rifle grenades and have a “simple design”. Fifty new automatic rifles were to be ready for field testing at the beginning of 1942...


Close-up of the StG 44 bolt box. Photography by Alain Dobress

But then the war with the USSR began, and the Soviet Tokarev SVT-38 and SVT-40 self-loading rifles and the Simonov ABC-36 automatic rifle, used by the Red Army, as well as PPSh-41 submachine guns, fell into the hands of German gunsmiths. All this spurred work in the field of creating new small arms for the Wehrmacht. The German army tried to introduce the Gever 41 automatic rifle, but it turned out to be difficult both to manufacture and to operate. In addition, it turned out that the recoil from the powerful 7,92 × 57 mm Mauser cartridge was too difficult to control when firing in automatic mode.


StG 44 sight. Photo by Alain Dobresse

To be continued ...

PS


The author and administration of the VO website express gratitude to the staff of the Penza Museum of Local Lore and personally to O. V. Krivova for assistance in obtaining the necessary photographic materials.
327 comments
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  1. +19
    20 November 2023 04: 25
    Well it starts on the fan
    that StG largely influenced the Soviet AK-47

    They are different!!! It has much more AR than AK platforms.
    when the French used their Lebel rifles to kill the rebellious natives in Madagascar from a distance of 2000 m

    The best specimens, even SVD, are 1.2 moa, in fact, the majority are about 2+- 0.3... The bullet flies 2 km for about 5-6 seconds. You need to take into account the wind, the height of the target, the BC.... so these are all fairy tales, if they shot at group targets.
    800 meters, which is approximately half the line-of-sight range of the 7,92 × 57 mm cartridge
    At this point I stopped reading...
    Z.y. Grandfather is a sniper... went through almost the entire war with a captured 98
    In addition, it turned out that the recoil from the powerful 7,92 × 57 mm Mauser cartridge was too difficult to control when firing in automatic mode

    Automatic rifles of rifle calibers are designed to automate reloading, and not to pretend to be MG3.
    1. +21
      20 November 2023 04: 44
      Quote from Enceladus
      At this point I stopped reading...

      But I re-read it twice, and didn’t find a word about Fedorov, or his cartridge, or the machine gun.
      But even though the cartridge was a rifle cartridge, in fact it was the forerunner of an intermediate one! Although the author’s position on belittling the merits of domestic inventors in every possible way is known. Like "level".
      1. +10
        20 November 2023 06: 03
        In Kwantung, my grandfather went with an arisaka... yes, I didn’t hear any particular complaints about it from him. But alas, it didn’t survive (unlike 98, which was handed over after the USSR “swelled”)... but I played with the cartridges from it. I never had a chance to shoot, so it’s hard to say.... but if you roughly look at the performance characteristics - in general, for a company sniper, 400-600 meters is the norm, but I wouldn’t say automatic. If you were in training... the difference when shooting from the same 5.45 and 7.62x39 is colossal at 300-400 meters. And the 9x39 (VAL/VSS) in general, for me, was the most difficult... the VSS generally has a black barrel.... any time is convenient - you had to clean it right away, otherwise it will rust in just a couple of hours
      2. -4
        20 November 2023 07: 51
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        But I re-read it twice, and didn’t find a word about Fedorov, or his cartridge, or the machine gun.

        Why write about it in this material? Why throw everything into a heap?
        1. +13
          20 November 2023 08: 24
          Quote: kalibr
          Why write about it in this material? Why throw everything into a heap?

          Some kind of shame... I.e. recalling German research in 1918, and even dragging in Madagascar rebels is the norm, but mentioning a real prototype, moreover, created consciously, within the framework of the concept, of an assault rifle is lumping it into a heap. U-level.
          1. -9
            20 November 2023 08: 37
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Those. recalling German research in 1918, and even dragging in Madagascar rebels is the norm, but mentioning a real prototype, moreover, created consciously, within the framework of the concept, of an assault rifle is lumping it into a heap.

            Exactly. About flies separately, about cutlets - separately!
            1. +6
              20 November 2023 09: 45
              Quote: kalibr
              Exactly. About flies separately, about cutlets - separately!

              Well, write about cutlets. About the brutal red English uniforms, garters there, for the combat stockings of the French nobility.
              But you shouldn’t write about the history of modern small arms like that, the history of weapons is a complex thing and not mentioning Fedorov in this article is the same as not mentioning the Soviet satellite and Yu.A Gagarin in an article about the history of cosmonautics.
              1. +7
                20 November 2023 10: 14
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                failure to mention in the article about the history of cosmonautics the Soviet satellite and Yu.A Gagarin.

                In an article on the history of astronautics - yes, in an article about the flight of a specific American astronaut... why?
                1. +9
                  20 November 2023 12: 01
                  Quote: kalibr
                  In an article on the history of astronautics - yes, in an article about the flight of a specific American astronaut... why?

                  Then why write in an article about a specific example about Madagascar rebels, Reichswehr research, a local history museum and your wife? Maybe you didn’t write about flies, but there’s definitely not enough meat in your cutlet!
                  1. -2
                    20 November 2023 15: 25
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    There's definitely not enough meat in your cutlet!

                    This is a good point. But this is only the first material. There will be a continuation further. And I don't like telegraphic presentation...
          2. +3
            20 November 2023 10: 44
            Some kind of shame... I.e. recalling German research in 1918, and even dragging in Madagascar rebels is the norm, but mentioning a real prototype, moreover, created consciously, within the framework of the concept, of an assault rifle is lumping it into a heap. U-level.


            Because Fedorov’s assault rifle does not fit into the concept of worship of the West, which reeks from this opus.
            1. -4
              20 November 2023 11: 32
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              Because Fedorov’s assault rifle does not fit into the concept of worship of the West, which reeks from this opus.

              And your comment reeks of ignorance. We owe everything to the West, from Marxism to the concept of an automatic rifle, which was first made there.
              1. +3
                20 November 2023 16: 20
                And your comment reeks of ignorance. We owe everything to the West, from Marxism to the concept of an automatic rifle, which was first made there.


                Yes, yes, of course, you are such a great specialist that you cannot even distinguish a self-loading rifle from a machine gun.
                And regarding “we owe everything to the West,” no one pulled your tongue.
                Therefore, tell us, for example, who proposed the layout and aerodynamic design of a single-rotor helicopter, where for the first time they built an aircraft according to a tailless design with a delta wing of low aspect ratio and a variable sweep of the leading edge. lol
                1. -2
                  20 November 2023 18: 28
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  Therefore, tell us, for example, who proposed the layout and aerodynamic design of a single-rotor helicopter, where for the first time they built an aircraft according to a tailless design with a delta wing of low aspect ratio and a variable sweep of the leading edge.

                  I don't know, and I don't want to know. I'm not an airplane pilot at all. But I know what engines our MIG-9, Yak-15, MIG-15 and Il-28 flew on. Do you know? By the way, before 1953, only THREE inventions that had world novelty were made in the USSR. Three from 1918 to 1953! Can you name it?
                  1. +7
                    20 November 2023 19: 01
                    Quote: kalibr
                    By the way, before 1953, only THREE inventions that had world novelty were made in the USSR. Three from 1918 to 1953! Can you name it?

                    You are following the path of the classic liberal propagandist: the best way to lie is to tell only part of the truth. ;)
                    Perhaps there were three inventions in the USSR and in 35 years this is bad... But if you remember the situation in the country (the consequences of WWII, the Revolution, the Civil War, the restoration of the country, the Second World War), this can be considered as a completely normal event.
                    1. -3
                      20 November 2023 19: 12
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      But if we remember the situation in the country (the consequences of WWII, the Revolution, the Civil War, the restoration of the country, the Second World War), this can be considered as a completely normal event.

                      But in our country all phenomena are “normal”. Abnormals behind the cordon! Can you name any inventions? And engine brands...
                      1. +5
                        20 November 2023 19: 32
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But in our country all phenomena are “normal”. Abnormals behind the cordon!

                        Nothing is clear, but very interesting...

                        Quote: kalibr
                        Can you name any inventions? And engine brands...

                        Boy, I don’t care that the pilots of my Motherland flew on British and German engines, the sailors sailed on ships designed with the help of the Italians, and the tank crews fought on tanks designed by the Americans.
                        They defended my Motherland, it was thanks to them that my parents, the parents of my friends and relatives were born...
                        So... Go for a walk, Vasya... (c)
                      2. +1
                        20 November 2023 21: 19
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Boy, I don’t care that the pilots of my Motherland flew on British and German engines, the sailors sailed on ships designed with the help of the Italians, and the tank crews fought on tanks designed by the Americans.

                        You know, Maxim, me too. There is nothing shameful in borrowing something good from someone else. The lie that is someone else’s is ours, which was spread in our past, is shameful.
                      3. +3
                        20 November 2023 21: 38
                        Quote: kalibr
                        The lie that is someone else’s is ours, which was spread in our past, is shameful.

                        Vyacheslav, as for me, you are confusing warm with soft.
                        Everything “foreign” was, to one degree or another, processed into “our own”, yes, there were cases of almost complete borrowing, in the case of the first turbojet engines or B-29/Tu-4, but these were cases of extreme necessity, when you need a “five-year plan for three years"... In other cases, projects were adjusted in accordance with domestic technical specifications.
                      4. -5
                        20 November 2023 21: 51
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Everything “foreign” was, to one degree or another, processed into “our own”, yes, there were cases of almost complete borrowing, in the case of the first turbojet engines or B-29/Tu-4, but these were cases of extreme necessity, when you need a “five-year plan for three years"... In other cases, projects were adjusted in accordance with domestic technical specifications.

                        And again I agree with you. But I note that if you read books published in the USSR, then almost all of this was written down in “ours”. Yakovlev somehow miraculously wrote about BMW, YuMO, Derwent and Nin. How do I know about this? In addition, you did not name everything. Because practically everything was actually borrowed. From cars to scooters. But even what you write is unlikely to please our reader vovochkarzhevsky.
                      5. +2
                        20 November 2023 22: 37
                        Quote: kalibr
                        In addition, you did not name everything.

                        Well, I didn’t intend to write a treatise about this... :)
                        A couple of examples will suffice.

                        Quote: kalibr
                        Because practically everything was actually borrowed.

                        But again, I indicated the reason above: it was necessary to catch up and, if possible, overtake, and in this case all means and possibilities are good...
                      6. -2
                        21 November 2023 07: 31
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        it was necessary to catch up and, if possible, overtake, and in this case all means and possibilities are good...

                        And on this, Maxim, I completely agree with you. But I don’t think it’s worth shouting “ours” where it’s not ours at all. And I am sure that you will agree with me.
                      7. +1
                        21 November 2023 18: 06
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But I don’t think it’s worth shouting “ours” where it’s not ours at all. And I am sure that you will agree with me.

                        I do not agree ...
                        Whatever one may say: propaganda is part of the life of the state.
                        Therefore, the population does not need to know that the best MiG-15 in the world flies on the British VK-1 engine...
                      8. Fat
                        +2
                        20 November 2023 20: 06
                        RDS-2 will fit into what category? wink
                      9. +1
                        26 November 2023 12: 32
                        into the category "success of illegal foreign intelligence".
                      10. +1
                        4 December 2023 12: 22
                        Quote: Thick
                        RDS-2 will fit into what category?

                        The foresight of the German baron Manfred von Ardenne, who in 1935, after Hitler’s meeting with Simon and Eden, realized that Hitler was an unfit ruler, and therefore, together with Ohnesorge, did everything to prevent the Anglophile Hitler from giving atomic weapons. And in the simplest way - all the uranium mined in the Reich passed through the basement of a mansion in Lichrefeld, and an electromagnetic separator removed U-235 from it, which remained in the warehouse, and German scientists who supported Hitler received highly depleted 238-A "specially purified uranium " conveyed to the USSR, having himself moved to Serebryany Bor from destroyed Berlin, and then to Sukhumi. Two Stalin Prizes seem to hint that his benefits for the USSR are incredibly great and even now are not completely declassified
                  2. +5
                    20 November 2023 19: 16
                    I don't know, and I don't want to know. I'm not an airplane pilot at all.


                    And you also reproached me for ignorance? lol

                    But I know what engines our MIG-9, Yak-15, MIG-15 and Il-28 flew on. Do you know?


                    That is, when it comes to licensed engines, you immediately become an airplane pilot, but when you develop your own, then no.

                    By the way, before 1953, only THREE inventions that had world novelty were made in the USSR. Three from 1918 to 1953! Can you name it?


                    There is no low aspect ratio delta wing there. Like many other inventions.
                    1. -3
                      20 November 2023 21: 30
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      licensed engines

                      Engines are not airplanes, right? It's a little different, even if they are aviation. Are YuMO and BMW also licensed, like Derwent and Nin?

                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      There is no low aspect ratio delta wing there. Like many other inventions.

                      This means that it does not have the priority of world novelty. The Germans had one like this, Lippich, it seems. He also dealt with them. But the forward-swept wing was “blown away” from the Germans.
                      But the fact is that we actually had inventions that received patents not only in the USSR, but also abroad, and their value is undeniable. This is a technology for producing synthetic rubber, a direct-flow steam boiler and... a fuse against double loading of a mortar. Patent 1943. Nothing more "independent". Everything else... something, somewhere, from someone... "borrowed". All guns before the S-56 had at least something in them, but they weren’t ours; we don’t even have to talk about KV gearboxes, T-34 suspension... TT. I had better luck with the rifleman. But how more? PPD is tracing paper MP18, PPSh is only technological perfection, just like PPS. At the core - everything is the same. And so on and so forth. And in my opinion there is nothing wrong with this. That's smart. It's not smart to hide it. And so, everything is OK.
                      1. +1
                        20 November 2023 22: 04
                        Quote: kalibr
                        once-through steam boiler

                        Here is an interesting question: the Benson-Siemens boiler, or more correctly the direct-flow steam generator, is from the early 20s, the Sulzer steam generator is from about the same time, the Ramzin boiler is from the early 30s.
                      2. +1
                        20 November 2023 23: 05
                        Your problem, Shpakovsky, is that after a fight you climb through reference books (windows between posts)))....I don’t care about your liberal views, in life you and I are unlikely to cross paths to find out whose Schwarz is stronger.... but what you write in the context of modern history is really funny.
                        You are much better at excursions through the Middle Ages.
                      3. +2
                        21 November 2023 07: 33
                        Quote: Dart
                        You are much better at excursions through the Middle Ages.

                        Because you know nothing at all from the Middle Ages, but here it seems to you that you know something.
                2. 0
                  20 November 2023 18: 31
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  I can’t even tell a self-loading rifle from a machine gun.

                  Are they different?
                  1. +1
                    20 November 2023 19: 23
                    Are they different?


                    This is already the bottom. They differ, just as rifle and intermediate cartridges differ.
                    Hmm, when pedagogical education is the basis, self-education is powerless here. lol
                    1. -7
                      20 November 2023 21: 35
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      This is already the bottom. They differ, just as rifle and intermediate cartridges differ.
                      Hmm, when pedagogical education is the basis, self-education is powerless here.

                      You are stupid, stupid. This is even written about on the Internet. Do you think I couldn't look? I could! But I want to laugh at you, a little.
                      1. +2
                        20 November 2023 22: 11

                        You are stupid, stupid. This is even written about on the Internet. Do you think I couldn't look? I could! But I want to laugh at you, a little.


                        So I learned military science in a real way. Not at the pedagogical institute. lol
                        And the practice was good, not like some.
                      2. -5
                        21 November 2023 07: 36
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        So I learned military science in a real way. Not at the pedagogical institute.
                        And the practice was good, not like some.

                        Just great. Where can I read your materials on good practice? Maybe you could make VO readers happy with your articles? Everyone would be very grateful to you.
                      3. +2
                        21 November 2023 10: 00
                        Just great. Where can I read your materials on good practice? Maybe you could make VO readers happy with your articles? Everyone would be very grateful to you.


                        Why do you need this? You still won’t understand anything about the problems of survival of flight personnel after forced abandonment, practical bombing, problems with launching and targeting ATGMs, and so on.
                        I don’t send articles to VO, although my texts have been found here, but without my knowledge.
                      4. +1
                        21 November 2023 11: 48
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        You still won’t understand anything about the problems of survival of flight personnel after forced abandonment, practical bombing, problems with launching and targeting ATGMs, and so on.

                        But as a specialist, can’t you present all this clearly and interestingly for a wide audience? People are not as stupid as you seem to think. This is called popular science text. And if, as you write, you have good journalistic training, this will not be difficult for you. Or how?
                      5. 0
                        21 November 2023 12: 39
                        But as a specialist, can’t you present all this clearly and interestingly for a wide audience? People are not as stupid as you seem to think. This is called popular science text. And if, as you write, you have good journalistic training, this will not be difficult for you. Or how?


                        This is what I do, depending on the time and mood I have.
                      6. -4
                        21 November 2023 07: 40
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        You are stupid, stupid. This is even written about on the Internet. Do you think I couldn't look? I could! But I want to laugh at you, a little.


                        So I learned military science in a real way. Not at the pedagogical institute.
                        And the practice was good, not like some.

                        Judging by the answer, I didn’t get it... Well, it happens... Simplicity is enough for every wise man.
                      7. +1
                        21 November 2023 10: 02
                        Judging by the answer, I didn’t get it... Well, it happens... Simplicity is enough for every wise man.


                        You didn’t get simplicity, apparently you’re not a sage. lol
                      8. 0
                        21 November 2023 11: 50
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        apparently not a wise man.

                        Are you at a loss for words? Are you using picture writing?
                      9. Fat
                        0
                        21 November 2023 14: 40
                        Leave it, Vyacheslav. Vovochek in ommarek, I can’t get so drunk, even in the Andes. Let it be. At least in terms of "laughing" like laughing drinks laughing
                3. -2
                  20 November 2023 21: 55
                  add also the invention of x-rays by Ivan the Terrible
                  1. -2
                    20 November 2023 22: 39
                    Quote: george.old
                    add also the invention of x-rays by Ivan the Terrible

                    Peter the Great... How can you not know this. wassat
              2. +1
                20 November 2023 22: 51
                Well... I didn’t expect it... In principle, I expected it, but not so much
                obviously...there's nothing to say.
      3. +8
        20 November 2023 19: 24
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Although the author’s position on belittling the merits of domestic inventors in every possible way is known.

        Well, he writes above that we owe everything to the West - from Marxism to foot wraps..... :)
        1. Fat
          +2
          20 November 2023 20: 32
          Well... I owe the "west" a few words in German and the unlimited chatter of several dialects of Britain and the USA, at least I can read all the bullshit that the fucking American lawyers wrote
        2. -5
          20 November 2023 21: 37
          Quote: bunta
          to foot wraps.

          No, Andrey! Foot wraps, like bast shoes, are our native from the beginning. Here we have always been ahead of the rest. There were problems with toilet paper and other hygiene products, but after 91 years they were successfully resolved!
          1. +4
            20 November 2023 23: 01
            The shapes of the fencing of the French balcony in the form of the letter "S" directly and clearly indicate the simplicity of the solution
            hygienic problems in the West you adore, then, as a round of development, high wooden shoes - SAVO or Postols... and so on and so forth, But the toilet, bathhouse, boots - suck. The sly man wrapped up the “proletarian theme” at the head of the article. Enjoying the reaction...)
      4. +2
        21 November 2023 14: 57
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        But I re-read it twice, and didn’t find a word about Fedorov, or his cartridge, or the machine gun.

        Maybe because the author is not familiar with the works of V.G. Fedorov. And he has a vague idea about his machine gun.
        But the fact that the author did not mention Mrb42(W) is a serious mistake.
    2. +13
      20 November 2023 05: 44
      When fired, the round bullet spun in an arbitrary plane and moved away from the aiming point. Because of this, in the 19th century, the sighting range of a smoothbore gun was about only 70 m. Therefore, smoothbore guns were not always equipped with a front sight and rear sight.
      At that time, guns dominated the battlefield. The ideal weapon in the 18th and 19th centuries was the Russian Unicorn, invented in 1756. It was, of course, muzzle-loading and fired unitary shots at a rate of fire of up to 10 rounds per minute. Compare: a modern muzzle-loading 120 mm mortar is capable of firing only 5-6 rounds per minute.
      Cannons and unicorns had a range of up to 600 m with grapeshot. They literally mowed down infantry long before they had time to reach aimed fire range. Even the cavalry did not always have time to break through the grapeshot. It was believed that one unicorn on the battlefield was equivalent to 800 infantry.
      Artillery God of War. During maneuvers, Paul I personally ensured that after the gun stopped, the first shot was fired exactly 10 seconds later; the intervals between guns (20 steps) were strictly maintained; the artillery had to take place in the first line, move with it and fire until the start of hand-to-hand combat. Those who distinguished themselves were awarded: to the rank and file - a glass of vodka, a pound of meat and a ruble of money; officers receive cash bonuses, valuable gifts and royal blessings. Those who found fault faced punishment: a verbal reprimand, arrest, exile, and sometimes with an entire battalion or even a regiment.
      The Crimean War changed everything. A volley of hundreds of guns from a distance of about one kilometer (a distance inaccessible to guns and unicorns) literally mowed down the openly located gun servants. This war was the final one for smoothbore artillery.
      During the First World War, artillery finally switched to indirect fire. However, although it was not spoken out loud, the inertia of thinking still demanded guns capable of firing volleys at artillery servants at 2 km. Hence all the problems of the intermediate cartridge.
      1. +10
        20 November 2023 06: 10
        Quote: Old electrician
        However, although it was not spoken out loud, the inertia of thinking still demanded guns capable of firing volleys at artillery servants at 2 km. Hence all the problems of the intermediate cartridge

        Yes, I wrote about this, that for group goals. Get to 2 km, even with modern balconies, in which everything can be taken into account... incl. humidity, pressure, etc. - getting even a 2N7 from 34 km... into the full range is an extremely difficult process. at such a range, even a difference in bullet speed of 3-4 m/s gives a vertical spread of about 2 meters. EMNIP... sorry - I don’t remember anymore. So, even with modern technology and rotatzin-cold-forged barrels, hitting the chest is a stroke of luck... and even in ideal conditions. I only had 1 shot at 2100s+ from the KSVK... but there were almost ideal conditions
        1. +10
          20 November 2023 06: 24
          And yet, most bullets of rifle calibers at 1,5-1,7 km already switch to subsonic... and this introduces destabilization of the bullet itself, because at subsonic levels, a blunt-pointed bullet is more effective than a pointed one. I shot at such distances - sometimes the bullet can even land flat
        2. -9
          20 November 2023 08: 16
          but there were almost ideal conditions[/quote]
          Dear Alexey! I didn't come up with this myself. But should I now take and re-read the French monograph on the Lebel rifle to find this? But even then... “you never know what the French will write.”
          1. +12
            20 November 2023 08: 35
            I didn't come up with this myself. But should I now take and re-read the French monograph on the Lebel rifle to find this? But even then... “you never know what the French will write.”
            Should I think for myself or compare sources? Difficult?
            1. -4
              20 November 2023 08: 48
              Quote: Aviator_
              Should I think for myself or compare sources? Difficult?

              That's right - it's difficult. It's much easier to just give information.
              1. +4
                21 November 2023 17: 29
                That's right - it's difficult. It's much easier to just give information.
                And at the same time belong to the 20% who teach the remaining 80%?
          2. +5
            20 November 2023 14: 14
            By the way, when shooting at ultra-long distances, you have to take into account air density, temperature gradient, various types of magnus effects, etc. (even from right- or left-hand rifling) and even the force of cariolis. Those. in the southern hemisphere there will be a difference when firing compared to the northern hemisphere from the same rifle
            1. +7
              20 November 2023 19: 38
              By the way, when shooting at ultra-long distances, you have to take into account air density, temperature gradient, various types of magnus effects, etc. (even from right- or left-hand rifling) and even the force of cariolis.
              Absolutely right. The Magnus effect depends on the direction of rotation (and therefore on the direction of the rifling), the Coriolis force depends on the latitude of the place, and in the southern hemisphere everything with Coriolis will be the opposite. So, during the WWII battle between the British and the Germans near the Falklands (08.12.1914/16/000), the British bursts at the maximum distance (about 100 m) fell exactly 50 m to the left of the German ships. The fact is that the British control system generated data for the northern latitude of 52 degrees, and the battle took place at 1 degrees south latitude. By the way, from these data we can estimate the deviation due to Coriolis for a long-range sniper shot as 160/12 of the range, considering the muzzle velocity of 2000 "English Mark X guns and rifles comparable, we find that at 12,5 m Coriolis in the northern hemisphere will give us a deviation of XNUMX .XNUMX m when comparing shooting in different hemispheres at the same latitude.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +2
                22 November 2023 11: 40
                Quote: Aviator_
                By the way, from these data we can estimate the deviation due to Coriolis for a long-range sniper shot as 1/160 of the range, considering the muzzle velocity of 12 "English Mark X guns and rifles comparable, we find that at 2000 m Coriolis in the northern hemisphere will give us a deviation of 12,5 .XNUMX m when comparing shooting in different hemispheres at the same latitude.
                The real value of bullet deflection due to the influence of the Coriolis force is about 5 cm at 1000 m distance
                1. +1
                  22 November 2023 16: 02
                  Modern balkals having a georeferencing of the shooter and target (distance and azimuth) take this effect into account
                  1. +2
                    22 November 2023 18: 52
                    Quote from Enceladus
                    Modern balkals having a georeferencing of the shooter and target (distance and azimuth) take this effect into account

                    This is all great, but to correctly understand the “extent of damage” you need to remember that a side wind at a speed of 1 m/s, when fired at 1 km, blows the 7.62 bullet somewhere 1 m to the side. Therefore, catching 5 cm per 1 km has rather little practical significance.
                    1. +1
                      23 November 2023 00: 37
                      So we are not talking about 7.62... for example 7N34 - the bullet weighs almost 60 grams and the ranges are different.
                      Take an IED (I fired from it) at 1100 emnip (a little more than a km in almost ideal conditions at the training ground) - that’s it... and the specimen was quite good, at 300m it gave something like ~1,6moa... then at such at ranges the bullet derivation is about a meter, because it is already flying at subsonic levels and there are a bunch of other effects. Even if you remember all the tables by heart, that's good... but practice is everything. This is the essence of the company commander’s work - to intuitively develop all the corrections in the brain. At short distances there is no time to remember the signs. Counter-sniper is something else... sometimes it takes several hours to prepare a shot with the equipment of the place and exit...
                      1. +1
                        25 November 2023 10: 52
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        So we are not talking about 7.62... for example 7N34 - the bullet weighs almost 60 grams and the ranges are different.

                        Let's "flies separately, cutlets separately"
                        We talked about the Cariolis effect
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        Modern balkals having a georeferencing of the shooter and target (distance and azimuth) take this effect into account

                        I answered that the deflection of a bullet at real shooting distances is vanishingly small compared to the wind drift of a bullet even at the lowest wind speed.
                    2. +1
                      23 November 2023 01: 51
                      By the way, do you know where the effective firing range figure comes from? It’s no secret, I think you can guess it yourself even without looking at the tables. The range at which the bullet goes to subsonic minus 10-20%. There, the ballistics are completely different and the balkals are powerless - everything is developed through practice and only practice. Company snipers are taught this only for informational purposes, and then for further selection, not training.
                      Z.y. SVU, in fact, I usually write SVDU and, strangely, “snipers” who are supposedly Scythians, etc. the copies never corrected me, saying that once he shot, he should know the abbreviation. This is a highly specialized attitude towards it. SVDUgod. If for the same KSVK this is justified + ease of carrying into 2 parts, balance and all the slag does not fly into your face when fired... then the IED is something negative
                      1. +1
                        25 November 2023 14: 26
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        By the way, do you know where the effective firing range figure comes from? It’s no secret, I think you can guess it yourself even without looking at the tables. The range at which the bullet goes to subsonic minus 10-20%. There, the ballistics are completely different and the balkals are powerless - everything is developed through practice and only practice. Company snipers are taught this only for informational purposes, and then for further selection, not training.
                        Z.y. SVU, in fact, I usually write SVDU and, strangely, “snipers” who are supposedly Scythians, etc. the copies never corrected me, saying that once he shot, he should know the abbreviation. This is a highly specialized attitude towards it. SVDUgod. If for the same KSVK this is justified + ease of carrying into 2 parts, balance and all the slag does not fly into your face when fired... then the IED is something negative

                        Effective firing range is the distance from which a weapon is fired, allowing it to solve the task defined by the approved standard and in accordance with the approved standard. And when shooting from the same weapon when shooting at different targets, the effective range will differ. In other words, the dispersion must be within the dimensions of the target + the striking element (bullet) must have sufficient energy to cause damage. A simple example: an infantryman without armor and an infantryman with armor. The effective distance against an armored infantryman will be limited to the distance at which armor penetration is ensured, and/or the distance at which dispersion still allows one to confidently target unprotected areas of the body. In the case of an infantryman without armor, the effective fire distance will be limited by the dispersion in the dimensions of the tall figure.
        3. Fat
          0
          20 November 2023 14: 43
          I completely trust your professionalism. However, at one time I was shocked by the situation described by Sholokhov in “The Quiet Flow of the Flow”: Grigory shot down a bird with a Mosin rifle (with a homemade cartridge) half a mile away... request
          1. +5
            20 November 2023 14: 49
            It's more like luck if the case actually happened. Otherwise, shot would not be used for hunting... and I feel sorry for the bird. I shot a white hare once with a leopard-1 (1x5,45), I don’t remember how many - 39+ meters... as they say, a drop of nicotine kills a horse, and tears a little dog into pieces laughing
            1. Fat
              +4
              20 November 2023 15: 37
              Understand! Out of fear, he shot at the chicken with 16 IZH-K. We were relaxing at the dacha in Raikovo... Wolves sometimes wandered there. The small shot made fine minced meat and feathers from the unfortunate bird.
              Crows are not afraid of mops
          2. +3
            20 November 2023 17: 26
            Quote: Thick
            I completely trust your professionalism. However, at one time I was shocked by the situation described by Sholokhov in “The Quiet Flow of the Flow”: Grigory shot down a bird with a Mosin rifle (with a homemade cartridge) half a mile away... request

            So a verst is 1,067 km, “half a verst” is approximately 500 m. These are the distances we are talking about here...
            1. Fat
              0
              20 November 2023 17: 41
              The mileage according to available sources is from 750 to 1600 meters. Don't worry. Half a mile and in Africa half a mile. This is a great shot. You want to eat, but you won’t be able to do that. smile
              1. +1
                20 November 2023 21: 46
                The mileage according to available sources is from 750 to 1600 meters.
                Andrey, in the 1952 aviation navigator’s pocket guide on page 297 it is said that a mile is equal to 1066,8 meters
          3. +3
            20 November 2023 19: 43
            described by Sholokhov in “The Quiet Flow of the Flow”, Grigory shot down a bird with a Mosin rifle (with a homemade cartridge) half a mile away...
            You can write everything in this powerful work of art, but who then measured the distance, really Sholokhov himself?
            1. Fat
              -2
              20 November 2023 20: 51
              Sergey. We have the most popular from Ukraine... "I don't know"....
              I don’t just believe Sholokhov, I reread him several times and double-check him, step by step. Hard... to the point of episodes, approximations and exaggerations...
              I'm not ready to answer the question
              Quote: Aviator_
              Is it really Sholokhov himself?
              1. +4
                20 November 2023 21: 37
                Andrey, Sholokhov himself wrote it, and how powerfully he wrote it! But the work of art must be taken into account. In the Orenburg region in the Civil War, the intensity of the events was no lower than in the Don (only 3 cities were awarded the honorary banner of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee for the Civil War - Orenburg, Petrograd and Tsaritsin), but, unfortunately, there was no Orenburg Sholokhov. Sometimes I find fault with the numbers because it is not known who measured them and how. This especially applies to the record speeds of animals, birds and fish.
          4. +6
            20 November 2023 21: 25
            Quote: Thick
            I completely trust your professionalism. However, at one time I was shocked by the situation described by Sholokhov in “The Quiet Flow of the Flow”: Grigory shot down a bird with a Mosin rifle (with a homemade cartridge) half a mile away... request

            Hi Borisych!
            Sholokhov modestly kept silent about the fact that the crew of the “bird” then chased Grigory across the steppe for three hours, behind a hole in the shell of the airship. laughing
            1. Fat
              +2
              21 November 2023 11: 40
              Grigory knocked down a goose; he really wanted to eat something substantial. It doesn’t matter what kind of zeppelin was hiding behind the clouds. The product was successfully prepared for broth smile drinks
            2. +1
              24 November 2023 07: 16
              The most terrible bird, a hang glider, shot five times until the man was released
    3. +5
      20 November 2023 06: 08
      If we ignore politics, then in fairness, it is worth noting that the AK 47 is a development and modification of the STG 44. Of course, technically they are different, but the concept of the assault rifle is the same and the Germans developed it first.
      1. +12
        20 November 2023 06: 29
        Quote: Glock-17
        If we ignore politics, then in fairness, it is worth noting that the AK 47 is a development and modification of the STG 44. Of course, technically they are different, but the concept of the assault rifle is the same and the Germans developed it first.

        If we think about it this way, then the STG is a development and refinement of the SVT, it’s just technically different and chambered for a different cartridge. The same Fedorov assault rifle had an attached magazine for 25 rounds and a semi-pistol fire control handle.
    4. +5
      20 November 2023 06: 30
      Quote from Enceladus
      They are different!!! It has much more AR than AK platforms.

      But I hope that you don’t deny the very concept of creating personal automatic weapons chambered for an intermediate cartridge, the founder of which was the Sturmgever?
      And honestly, even Kalashnikov used “Sturm” as a model for a very long time. After all, the original version of his machine gun, submitted to the first stage of the competition, looked like this

      AK-46, second option


      1. +8
        20 November 2023 06: 58
        Quote: svp67
        And honestly, even Kalashnikov used “Sturm” as a model for a very long time.

        Actually, there were samples without StG...


        1. -2
          20 November 2023 07: 59
          Why bring a submachine gun into this topic? Do you have to prove yours? And the Fedorov assault rifle... When I get to it, I’ll write about it too.
          1. +6
            20 November 2023 08: 31
            Quote: kalibr
            Why bring a submachine gun into this topic? Do you have to prove yours?

            Yes, reproaching the mention of SMG in a topic about assault rifles/machine guns is a level. Here it is in quotation marks.laughing

            Quote: kalibr
            And the Fedorov assault rifle... When I get to it, I’ll write about it too.
            Well, if it’s the same level as now, then no thanks!



            and the Soviet self-loading rifles Tokarev SVT-38 and SVT-40 and the Simonov automatic rifle ABC-36, used by the Red Army, fell into the hands of German gunsmiths, as well as PPSh-41 submachine guns.
            lol
            1. -1
              20 November 2023 08: 40
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, if it’s the same level as now, then no thanks!

              Well, you are not such an authority that I should be guided by your requests. There are plenty of other people for whom this information is enough. And in the future everything will be exactly the same...
              1. Mwg
                +2
                20 November 2023 08: 57
                There are plenty of other people for whom this information is enough. And in the future everything will be exactly the same...

                Vyacheslav, good day. Do you know what the ratio of people who are competent (at least in something) to those who are incompetent in anything is? 1 in 1000 (approximately). Have you just admitted that your works are aimed at a target audience of incompetent people and will this be the case in the future? And what kind of installations do you set for incompetent people? In the spirit of neoliberalism? Create an enlightened consumer? "People eat"?
                1. +3
                  20 November 2023 09: 07
                  Quote: MVG
                  Have you just admitted that your works are aimed at a target audience of incompetent people and will this be the case in the future?

                  In my opinion, they are also people, citizens of our country, and I consider raising their level of competence to be as noble a task as raising the information level of competent people. Apparently, I am not able to work with an audience of 20% competent people. Well, so I will work with the 80% category. they are also worthy of attention.
                  1. 0
                    20 November 2023 09: 22
                    Quote: kalibr
                    and I consider raising their level of competence to be as noble a task as raising the information level of competent people.

                    Having ignored the undoubted domestic priority in this area, you provided obviously low-quality information. Those. You are trying to make uneducated people even less educated... B - nobility.
                    1. -1
                      20 November 2023 10: 16
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Having ignored the undoubted domestic priority in this area,

                      Was he there? Automatic rifles were made before Fedorov... It will be necessary to tell about the history of automatic rifles... Fedorov will not be in the forefront in it. Want to?
                      1. +4
                        20 November 2023 11: 19
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Was he there? Automatic rifles were made before Fedorov... It will be necessary to tell about the history of automatic rifles... Fedorov will not be in the forefront in it.

                        Fedorov proposed a low-power, actually transitional cartridge for those times, and substantiated the ideology of the cartridge and weapons for it, which differed little from the ideology of an assault rifle/machine gun. Extorted funds for this from the tsarist government wink !!! And you are trying to imagine Fedorov as the designer of the next self-loading gun.
                        You are trying to cover up your dishonesty with your incompetence. And - intelligence! lol
                      2. 0
                        20 November 2023 11: 35
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Fedorov proposed a low-power, actually transitional cartridge for those times,

                        But I used a Japanese rifle, standard Arisaka cartridge. However, I am grateful to you for the idea: there will be a series of articles about the development of automatic rifles. It will also talk about cartridges and who borrowed what from whom.
                      3. +4
                        20 November 2023 12: 20
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But I used a Japanese rifle, standard Arisaka cartridge.

                        No, I was forced to use it, maybe for the better, in connection with the beginning of WWI. And the “standard rifle” cartridge was for the Japanese with their 48-kilogram average Japanese recruit of the early 20th century.
                      4. +2
                        20 November 2023 13: 23
                        Well, I don’t know, I shot for the first time at the age of 8 with a Mauser 98. To be honest, it’s critical in terms of impulse - it feels like a 12-16 caliber +- (hunting), and even if you calculate it using the formula I = m*V it’s immediately obvious. Of course, if you fire hundreds of rounds of ammunition a day from a Mosinka and an SVD, the difference will of course be noticeable (on the SVD, due to the automation, the recoil impulse is more extended in time)
                      5. -4
                        20 November 2023 15: 30
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        was forced to use

                        What a difference... The main thing is that practically everything already existed before him. Both low-power cartridge and automatic!
                      6. +1
                        21 November 2023 03: 53
                        Quote: kalibr
                        What a difference... The main thing is that practically everything already existed before him. Both low-power cartridge and automatic!

                        Oh, well, then Sturmgever is not even secondary, but in general it turns out to be some kind of imitation. According to your crooked logic.
                        There were cartridges, there was automation, there was layout, breaking, stamping of the box - there was even an ideology!
                      7. 0
                        21 November 2023 13: 30
                        And what did about 500 of the best captured gunsmiths in Germany, led by Schmeisser, do in Izhevsk, where at the same time Kalashnikov was working on a machine gun.
                      8. -1
                        21 November 2023 14: 22
                        Quote: Torp20
                        And what did about 500 of the best captured gunsmiths in Germany, led by Schmeisser, do in Izhevsk, where at the same time Kalashnikov was working on a machine gun.
                        Even Wiki denies this, but Schmeisser rather shared, involuntarily, his experience in stamping and organizational issues.
                      9. Fat
                        +1
                        21 November 2023 19: 55
                        The circus has been built! these prisoners are no longer significant in any way "Drop dead" "gunsmiths" invented by you
                      10. +3
                        25 November 2023 21: 07
                        Did Kalashnikov actually shoot in Izhevsk? As if he worked in Kovrov.
                      11. +7
                        20 November 2023 13: 14
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But I used a Japanese rifle, standard Arisaka cartridge

                        He used it for one simple reason... we had a lot of Arisaki rifles + a lot of cartridges for it + the rand was missing. But on the other hand, the chamber of our 1x7,62R made it possible to reduce the tolerances and quality of production on the equipment that was available. And in Tsarist Russia and then the USSR there were a lot of problems with machine tools. Weltless cartridge cases require more precise equipment both for the production of the cartridge case itself and the chamber, because they are fixed in the chamber with a slope, and the welted one is fixed with a flange - it will fire in any case and is less sensitive to contamination of the chamber and the cartridge itself when fed into it. I think Fedorov took 54 not because it is less powerful - and not to bother with the magazine and feed. Why do you think the PD-6,5 had a disk magazine? For exactly the same reason... making a 27-row magazine for 2+ rounds is still quite a task - now, in general, calculations can be done on computers - but then everything was done by trial and error - roughly speaking, by scientific poking - what was required huge time and material costs.
                      12. -1
                        20 November 2023 15: 31
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        costs.

                        That's right, Alexey. Couldn't have said it better.
                      13. -1
                        21 November 2023 03: 49
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        I think Fedorov took 6,5 not because it is less powerful - and not to bother with the magazine and feed.

                        You’re not thinking quite right, Fedorov developed a cartridge less powerful than the 7,62*54 precisely for reasons of momentum and offered it for production, and the cartridge was even produced, to a limited extent. And at the beginning of the 20th century, Russia was already quite capable of flangeless design.

                        Quote from Enceladus
                        Why do you think the PD-27 had a disk magazine?
                        Do you even imagine that you are opening my eyes to the rifleman?
                      14. +2
                        21 November 2023 04: 04
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Fedorov developed a less powerful cartridge than 7,62*54

                        Developed based on what was there. It is clear that a smaller impulse has a beneficial effect on the recoil energy and the operation of the automation. Nevertheless, automatic and self-loading rifles were developed after World War II (for example, the American M-2) and were used in the database until the beginning of the 14st century under full-fledged .21-30 and as a combined arms weapon, and not for company commanders
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Do you even imagine that you are opening my eyes to the rifleman?

                        So colleague, I didn’t answer you. If on topic then hi
                      15. Fat
                        +6
                        20 November 2023 14: 49
                        Actually, Fedorov developed a machine gun chambered for his own cartridge. Arisaka is already an “ersatz” from the available type 38... Without a flange. You know it very well
                      16. +4
                        20 November 2023 15: 01
                        In general, yes, but I don’t remember that we had equipment then - maybe we bought it from the Japs. Reloading ammo isn't much of a problem. But the fact is that geometrically the sleeves are 1 in one. Unfortunately, I don’t have that literature right now. There were even geometry and powder passports. Below I wrote that a lot depends not only on the geometric dimensions - but also on a bunch of other factors.
                        ZY And we had a lot of arisak, as well as cartridges
                      17. Fat
                        +4
                        20 November 2023 15: 48
                        There was no equipment. There were barrels and cartridges. The Fedorov assault rifle could be assembled by any auto repair shop.
                        And this, in part, was wonderful. Only the tsarist government did not have enough organization even for priority military logistics
                      18. +1
                        20 November 2023 15: 58
                        Well, if the Arisaks also bought cartridges from the Japanese, they could also, in theory, buy machine tools... but I haven’t even seen such information. recourse
                      19. Fat
                        +4
                        20 November 2023 16: 47
                        The transition from tsarism to socialist realism did not take place in a couple of years. The normal constitution of the Country of Soviets was adopted in 36. We, Russia, have not accelerated normally from 1991 to 2021. And if it weren’t for the SVO, we would have been in absolute anus. So now think about what is more important, a chicken for breakfast or a 152 mm shell. I’m a vegetarian, I subsist on sausage (once a week)
                        I don’t care, as long as my “chicken” projectile hits the enemy and brings the world closer. On our modest terms, of course! wassat
                      20. -2
                        20 November 2023 15: 32
                        Quote: Thick
                        under your own patron.

                        Which was not much different from Arisaki... The sizes were the same.
                      21. +6
                        20 November 2023 16: 06
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Was he there? Automatic rifles were made before Fedorov... It will be necessary to tell about the history of automatic rifles... Fedorov will not be in the forefront in it.

                        Fedorov proposed a low-power, actually transitional cartridge for those times, and substantiated the ideology of the cartridge and weapons for it, which differed little from the ideology of an assault rifle/machine gun. Extorted funds for this from the tsarist government wink !!! And you are trying to imagine Fedorov as the designer of the next self-loading gun.
                        You are trying to cover up your dishonesty with your incompetence. And - intelligence! lol

                        Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J. For example, 6,5 × 50 Arisaka has 2700 J, 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano 2900 J, 6.5 × 55 Swedish Mauser 2900 J and these are typical rifle cartridges of their time.
                        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?
                      22. 0
                        21 November 2023 13: 46
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?

                        Not in place, but in time! In tsarist times, it was hardly possible to offer a obviously and noticeably weaker but at the same time more expensive cartridge. So "actually intermediate" is correct.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        This is a typical rifle cartridge of its time.
                        But this is not correct, moreover, this is bullshit about “typical” cartridges. Typical rifle cartridges are Russian 7,62, German 7,92, English 7,7 and American 7,62 with muzzle energy from 3500 to 4000 plus J.. Mainstream, if you know what I mean.
                      23. 0
                        21 November 2023 21: 02
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Typical rifle cartridges are Russian 7,62, German 7,92, English 7,7 and American 7,62 with muzzle energy from 3500 to 4000 plus J.

                        To be completely precise, during the First World War, .303 British Mark VII - 3100J. , .30-06 Springfield. with a 9.7g bullet -3300J, Lebel 8 mm - 3360J, 7,62x54R -3450J, 7,92x57 Mauser -3700J. So, about “from 3500 to 4000J” you were overreacting, if you know what I mean.
                        But to make you feel comfortable, I will rephrase my statement a little: “The original Fedorov cartridge is a typical 6.5 mm rifle cartridge from the First World War period.”
                      24. -1
                        22 November 2023 04: 32
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        So, about “from 3500 to 4000J” you were overreacting, if you know what I mean.

                        No, at the beginning of WWII the average was from 3500 with a subsequent increase.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        303 British Mark VII - 3100J

                        3463 J
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        30-06 Springfield. with 9.7g bullet -3300J

                        3293 J
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        7,62x54R -3450j

                        3500 J
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        7,92x57 Mauser -3700j

                        S patrone 3800 J


                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        But to make you feel comfortable, I will rephrase my statement a little: “The original Fedorov cartridge is a typical 6.5 mm rifle cartridge from the First World War period.”
                        One could agree with your statement, if not for the fact that Fedorov developed the cartridge specifically for individual automatic weapons, in contrast to other 6,5 cartridges of that time for a rifle and, at best, a machine gun, which were also accepted in countries, to put it mildly not authoritative at that time. Is it comfortable or not, does it matter if there is no open rudeness? hi
                      25. +1
                        22 November 2023 09: 22
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        303 British 3463 J

                        This is for the 303 British Mark VIII, which was put into service in 1938, for the 303 British Mark VII from the First World War, a modest 3100J. I already screwed up with the Mauser. Let's return to mathematics 3100+3293+ Lebel 3360+3500+3800 and /5 = average 3410J. That is, Fedorov’s original cartridge is only 10% less powerful than the average 7.5-8mm rifle cartridge from the First World War, while it is more powerful than its 6.5mm counterparts +/- by the same 10%
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        a cartridge specifically for individual automatic weapons, unlike other 6,5 cartridges of that time for a rifle and, at best, a machine gun, which were also accepted in countries that, to put it mildly, were not reputable at that time.

                        Sorry, I don’t have any other countries with a 6.5 caliber rifle cartridge request
                        But let’s return to our question: “How does Fedorov’s cartridge belong to the intermediate cartridge (a cartridge in power between pistol and rifle, in case you forgot)?”
                      26. -1
                        22 November 2023 15: 20
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Let's return to mathematics 3100+3293+ Lebel 3360+3500+3800 and /5 = average 3410j

                        Well, okay, you convinced me of a somewhat overestimated assessment of the average cartridge, although the trend of increasing energy is obvious and the French, with their complacency on the D 1898 cartridge, could not be taken into account.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        That is, Fedorov’s original cartridge is only 10% less powerful than the average 7.5-8mm rifle cartridge from the First World War, while it is more powerful than its 6.5mm counterparts +/- by the same 10%
                        But not everything is so simple with Fedorov’s cartridge, in the descriptions the weight of the bullet ranges from 8,2 to 9 g, but that’s okay, just to get energy in 3100 J. an 8,2 g bullet needs a speed of 869 m / s, and a 9 g bullet at 830 m/s and with such a sleeve length of 57 mm this is impossible. As an example, Mannlicher-Schönauer 6,5*54 with 750 m/s and 2810 J for a 10 g bullet. or the Swedish Mauser 6,5*55 with 725 m/s and 2655 J. And 2-3 mm cartridges will not solve anything. And this is not to mention the washout of rifling and failure of guidance at such speeds, which we encountered later. And Bolotin mentions a speed of only 660 m/s for Fedorov’s assault rifles and machine guns. So there is a discrepancy somewhere.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Sorry, I don’t have any other countries with a 6.5 caliber rifle cartridge
                        Oh well, in the end, many considered reducing the caliber until they encountered aviation and armor. hi


                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        “How does Fedorov’s cartridge qualify as intermediate (a cartridge that is between pistol and rifle in power, in case you forgot)?”
                        Where did you see that Fedorov’s cartridge is intermediate?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        low-power, actually transitional cartridge for those times

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In tsarist times, it was hardly possible to offer a obviously and noticeably weaker but at the same time more expensive cartridge. So "actually intermediate" is correct.

                        I'll repeat it in case you forgot. Regarding the time and, more importantly, the place - Tsarist Russia before WWII, the Fedorov cartridge can be considered actually intermediate, especially taking into account its purpose for INDIVIDUAL AUTOMATIC weapons.
                      27. 0
                        22 November 2023 22: 18
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But not everything is so simple with Fedorov’s cartridge, in the descriptions the weight of the bullet ranges from 8,2 to 9 g, but that’s okay, just to get energy in 3100 J. an 8,2 g bullet needs a speed of 869 m / s, and a 9 g bullet at 830 m/s and with such a sleeve length of 57 mm this is impossible. As an example, Mannlicher-Schönauer 6,5*54 with 750 m/s and 2810 J for a 10 g bullet. or the Swedish Mauser 6,5*55 with 725 m/s and 2655 J. And 2-3 mm cartridges will not solve anything

                        It's time for exciting stories...
                        Now the length of the sleeve is not the same...))) - only 57 mm. Maybe not only the length is important, but the internal volume of the cartridge case and the characteristics of the gunpowder are important? The Germans normally accelerated a 10g bullet from the 7.92x57 cartridge to 850m/s and the length of the cartridge case was not a hindrance to them, but the Americans shot 30m/s from their .06-63, which had a 9.7mm cartridge case, on a 830g bullet.
                        Let's compare Mauser and Fedorov cartridges


                        If you carefully look at the shape of the sleeves and their dimensions, you can see that the internal volumes should be quite close. The question is what conceptually prevented Fedorov’s cartridge from providing a lighter bullet with a speed of 830 m/s. Vladimir, you can be curious about the sizes of the cartridge cases of “to put it mildly, not reputable” (in your words) 6.5mm cartridges and you yourself will be able to answer the question why they have less, and Fedorov has more) But you don’t need this, you need to keep the “brand” about : "The Fedorov cartridge can be considered actually intermediate, especially taking into account its purpose for INDIVIDUAL AUTOMATIC weapons." - and don’t care that it is +/- the same as cartridges of a similar caliber at that time.
                        Let me take my leave hi
                      28. -1
                        23 November 2023 04: 43
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        It's time for exciting stories...
                        These, dear Boris, are numbers.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Now the length of the sleeve is not the same...))) - only 57 mm.

                        For me it’s too much, Fedorov said too much.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Maybe not only the length is important, but the internal volume of the cartridge case and the characteristics of the gunpowder are important? The Germans normally accelerated a 10g bullet from the 7.92x57 cartridge to 850m/s and the length of the cartridge case was not a hindrance to them, but the Americans shot 30m/s from their .06-63, which had a 9.7mm cartridge case, on a 830g bullet.
                        But the Germans have a slightly larger volume, due to a smaller narrowing towards the neck - 0,434 versus 0,4 in. and, more importantly, the weight of gunpowder was almost one and a half times larger: 3,2 g versus 2,24.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Question - what conceptually prevented Fedorov’s cartridge from providing a lighter bullet with a speed of 830 m/s
                        And nothing except such a trifle as the reliability of individual automatic weapons. Because during experimental shooting they generally fired bullets with an energy of 3700 J.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Vladimir, you can be curious about the sizes of the cartridges of “to put it mildly, not reputable” (in your words) 6.5mm cartridges and you yourself will be able to answer the question why they have less, and Fedorov has more)
                        Were you curious? Because Carcano’s case bottom is 0,45 d, the Swedish Mauser’s is 0,48, and only Arisaki’s is 0,44 versus 0,47 for you know who. With, by the way, comparable amounts of gunpowder.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        you need to keep the “brand” about: “The Fedorov cartridge can be considered actually intermediate, especially taking into account its purpose for INDIVIDUAL AUTOMATIC weapons.”

                        So the more you argue, the more you learn, and in this case you learn in favor of your version... Fedorov created an automatic/cartridge system if you understand)), and not just another self-loading system.
                      29. The comment was deleted.
                      30. -1
                        23 November 2023 08: 04
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But the Germans have a slightly larger volume, due to a smaller narrowing towards the neck - 0,434 versus 0,4 in. and, more importantly, the weight of gunpowder was almost one and a half times larger: 3,2 g versus 2,24.

                        Progress, the sleeve is almost the same, otherwise “it was 2-3 mm doesn’t solve anything”, now they just didn’t pour enough powder
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And nothing except such a trifle as the reliability of individual automatic weapons. Because during experimental shooting they generally fired bullets with an energy of 3700 J.


                        Wow, how quickly you changed your shoes, and a couple of posts above it was
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but that’s okay, just to get 3100 J of energy, the 8,2 g bullet needs a speed of 869 m/s, and the 9 g bullet needs 830 m/s, and with such a sleeve length of 57 mm, this is impossible.

                        You see, we’ve already read that with this sleeve you can get 3610j (8g 950m/s)
                        Still, I have to say goodbye, because we are starting to “go in circles”
                      31. -1
                        23 November 2023 08: 20
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Progress, the sleeve is almost the same, otherwise “it was 2-3 mm doesn’t solve anything”, now they just didn’t pour enough powder
                        Somehow I don’t see a continuation of the tiny 6,5 mm screw sleeves. cartridges. And then suddenly it turned out that the bottom is the same, but the shapes are different, and the thickness of the walls also plays a role, think about it. And often not because of the volume, but according to the conditions for removing the cartridge automatically. Or maybe you will rub in that different amounts of gunpowder will give the same energy to the bullet?
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        You see, we’ve already read that with this sleeve you can get 3610j (8g 950m/s)
                        Hello, wipe your eyes, where about the same cartridge case? There were even bullets of several calibers, not counting 7,62. when shooting from ballistic barrels, and not from real samples.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Still, I have to say goodbye, because we are starting to “go in circles”
                        Hehe. As it became clear that 3100 J for 5,6 Fedorov is far from a fact, so “in circles”.
                      32. 0
                        23 November 2023 10: 35
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Hello, wipe your eyes, where about the same cartridge case? There were even bullets of several calibers, not counting 7,62. when shooting from ballistic barrels, and not from real samples.

                        You will wipe it for yourself) Fedorov has a table with test results, which shows the test results in three calibers: 6;6.5;7mm 950 m/s was for a 6.5 bullet. When you wipe it, you can find it.
                        Let's move on
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But even though the cartridge was a rifle cartridge, in fact it was the forerunner of an intermediate one!

                        Looks like he has a split personality, or he didn't wipe his eyes)
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Where did you see that Fedorov’s cartridge is intermediate?


                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        when shooting from ballistic barrels, and not from real samples.

                        What does this have to do directly with the cartridge itself?
                        That's why we go in circles...
                        Goodbye, go wash up
                      33. -1
                        23 November 2023 17: 13
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Fedorov has a table with test results, which shows the test results in three calibers: 6;6.5;7mm 950 m/s was for a 6.5 bullet. When you wipe it, you can find it.

                        Tyyu, little eyes, where did you see the final version of the sleeve? And use your mind, if there are other bullets besides 6,5 mm, then this is a test for lethality of different calibers, even before testing the cartridge itself.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        But even though the cartridge was a rifle cartridge, in fact it was the forerunner of an intermediate one!

                        Looks like he has a split personality, or he didn't wipe his eyes)
                        Learn the rules of the Russian language and master logic if you don’t understand the meaning of the words “in fact” and “forerunner” in the sentence above. Also, name at least one non-self-loading rifle chambered for the Fedorov cartridge.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        What does this have to do directly with the cartridge itself?
                        The fact is that in real self-loading, light machine guns and machine guns, cartridges with such initial bullet velocities were not used. And in the test tables there is no 6,5 mm bullet with an energy of 3100 J. Well, asking such a question is, in principle, an indicator...
                        And also, I’m sorry, but you are the one who switched to you, and people like you have nothing with which to cover a small amount of 2 grams of gunpowder.
                      34. -1
                        23 November 2023 17: 59
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And also, I’m sorry, but you are the one who switched to you, and people like you have nothing with which to cover a small amount of 2 grams of gunpowder.

                        The fact that Fedorov had a weight of 2 g is not a statement that the cartridges did not fit more; the Germans, with almost the same cartridge case, had almost 40% more weight - that means there was room to pour.
                        Let me remind you that someone with unworn eyes claimed that “they say the cartridge case is small for such power”
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but that’s okay, just to get 3100 J of energy, the 8,2 g bullet needs a speed of 869 m/s, and the 9 g bullet needs 830 m/s, and with such a sleeve length of 57 mm, this is impossible.

                        Vladimir, continue to fuss further.
                      35. +1
                        22 November 2023 16: 04
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Sorry, I don’t have any other countries with a 6.5 caliber rifle cartridge

                        And the Mannlicher Karkano 6,5x52.... from him, in my opinion, Kennedy has that emnip?
                      36. -1
                        22 November 2023 22: 25
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Sorry, I don’t have any other countries with a 6.5 caliber rifle cartridge

                        And the Mannlicher Karkano 6,5x52.... from him, in my opinion, Kennedy has that emnip?

                        There is one, but it is also wrong winked
                      37. Fat
                        +2
                        22 November 2023 08: 52
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        "The original Fedorov cartridge is a typical 6.5 mm rifle cartridge from the First World War."

                        He, Fedorov's patron, is not typical. Conventional.
                        We know that the transition from 4 Berdanka lines to a three-line system was not easy, to put it mildly. And a demarche towards a more humane caliber. It was, to put it bluntly, impossible. That’s why they fought, 7.7, 7,92, 7,62 (three lines).
                        The Japanese had time and established the production of conventional small things. Others - no. For different reasons.
                      38. +1
                        22 November 2023 20: 28
                        Quote: Thick
                        We know that the transition from 4 Berdanka lines to a three-line system was not easy, to put it mildly. And a demarche towards a more humane caliber. It was literally impossible

                        Excerpt from the book by that same Fedorov about “humane 6.5mm bullets”
                        An initial review of the articles seemed to confirm the fears of opponents of small caliber - most doctors wrote almost enthusiastically about the “humane Japanese bullet.”

                        “The destructive power of small-caliber bullets turned out to be much less than previously observed.” “Only now am I convinced that the Japanese two-line weapon deserves the name of a “humane” weapon.” “Some officers, when wounded in the legs, abdomen, chest, neck, etc., could calmly command until they received a second wound. Gunshot pulmonary wounds give surprisingly mild flows; the entrance and exit holes are sealed with a plaster, and the wounded, usually on foot, move on ; except for a band-aid and rest - there’s nothing to do here..”
                        It seemed that these messages just confirmed the problems of small-caliber lethality
                        But, as Fedorov noted, most doctors compared the effect of Japanese bullets not with similar modern bullets, but with their personal experience of the Russian-Turkish war of the 1870s, where the main ammunition used was still larger caliber cartridges, moreover, due to the lack a full metal shell is much more prone to deformation when hitting a target. Where a comparison was made between 6,5 mm Arisak and 8 mm Murat bullets, no significant difference in action was noted. Moreover, most reviews about the “humanity” of Japanese bullets related to wounds received from long and medium distances, but closer to the situation the situation changed dramatically.

                        “The effect of these bullets at close ranges is tearing and downright terrible: when deformed and tumbling, they cause no less serious damage than non-jacketed bullets.” “Due to the fact that the most essential condition for explosive action is speed and that the latter at very close distances is extremely high for 6,5 mm bullets, these projectiles can destroy small bodies, for example, the skull, to a much greater extent than 8 mm bullets.”
                      39. -5
                        20 November 2023 18: 19
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Fedorov proposed a low-power cartridge, actually transitional at that time, and substantiated the ideology of the cartridge and weapons

                        What, Vladimir, does the Bible tell us? And she says: do not judge, and you will not be judged. And so it wasn’t even me who answered you, but “BORMAN82” and wrote - Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J. For example, 6,5 × 50 Arisaka has 2700 J, 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano 2900 J, 6.5 × 55 Swedish Mauser 2900 J and these are typical rifle cartridges of their time.
                        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?

                        I didn't have this data at hand. But there was no time to look. And thanks to Boris for finding them and taking the trouble to post them. So “shut up” about Fedorov’s championship, and in the future expect an article from me about him with all the exact data about cartridges and everything else. As soon as I get there. So right away... And one more piece of advice: trust the old Soviet publications less about our priority in everything possible. In 1948 it worked. Not today!
                      40. -1
                        21 November 2023 13: 50
                        Quote: kalibr
                        And so it wasn’t even me who answered you, but “BORMAN82” and wrote - Fedorov’s original 6.5x57 cartridge provided the 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J. For example, 6,5 × 50 Arisaka has 2700 J, 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano 2900 J, 6.5 × 55 Swedish Mauser 2900 J and these are typical rifle cartridges of their time.
                        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?

                        Well, about your level, yes...



                        And the answer is something like this...
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        In what “place” is Fedorov’s cartridge “low-power” and “intermediate”?

                        Not in place, but in time! In tsarist times, it was hardly possible to offer a obviously and noticeably weaker but at the same time more expensive cartridge. So "actually intermediate" is correct.

                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        This is a typical rifle cartridge of its time.

                        But this is not correct, moreover, this is bullshit about “typical” cartridges. Typical rifle cartridges are Russian 7,62, German 7,92, English 7,7 and American 7,62 with muzzle energy from 3500 to 4000 plus J.. Mainstream, if you know what I mean.




                        And one more piece of advice: trust old Soviet publications less about our priority in everything possible. In 1948 it worked. Not today!

                        It’s your sad silences and manipulations that don’t work, because... The Internet is publicly accessible, but the vast majority of Soviet propaganda turned out to be the absolute truth.
                2. -1
                  20 November 2023 09: 08
                  Quote: MVG
                  And what kind of installations do you set for incompetent people? In the spirit of neoliberalism? Create an enlightened consumer? "People eat"?

                  The article is about the "sturgever"...
          2. -2
            20 November 2023 11: 46
            Quote: kalibr
            When I get to it, I’ll write about it too.
          3. +2
            20 November 2023 23: 19
            Maybe start...there was a word first, not from the middle - Stg...
          4. +1
            21 November 2023 05: 59
            No need! There will be something directly opposite to this article.
            Z.Y: I read your comments, the feeling is disgusting.
        2. +5
          20 November 2023 10: 45
          The design of many PP from the Second World War dates back to the Schmeisser MP-18 system and its subsequent modifications.

          Weapons chambered for the intermediate cartridge were built on completely different principles.
          1. -2
            20 November 2023 11: 44
            Quote from solar
            The design of many PP from the Second World War dates back to the Schmeisser MP-18 system and its subsequent modifications.
            Well, it rises and rises, although not all of them, it just confirms once again that many samples, and not just the StG-44, could serve as a model for the early version of the AK Kalashnikov.
            Quote from solar
            Weapons chambered for the intermediate cartridge were built on completely different principles.
            On others, what are they, other than self-loading rifles? The turning point design is not a principle, automation and locking, yes, these are the principles of operation, well, the machine guns were with a blowback/semi-blowback, and the PP with forced locking.
            1. -2
              20 November 2023 15: 57
              Actually used weapons chambered for an intermediate cartridge do not use blowback-based automatics.
              1. +4
                20 November 2023 16: 23
                Any weapon with an impulse of more than 2-2,5 kg * m / s has one way or another locking (by turning the barrel or bolt cylinder, skewing the bolt, browning system, etc.) or a semi-free bolt (roller, friction liner, grooves revelli, etc.)
              2. +2
                21 November 2023 03: 40
                Quote from solar
                Actually used weapons chambered for an intermediate cartridge do not use blowback-based automatics.

                But there were samples, and more importantly, there were and are PP with a locked shutter.
        3. +6
          20 November 2023 12: 26
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Actually, there were samples without StG...

          There were, especially the winner of the previous AS-44 competition (designed by Sudaev)

          Doesn't she remind you of anything?
          1. +6
            20 November 2023 12: 50
            Quote: svp67
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Actually, there were samples without StG...

            There were, especially the winner of the previous AS-44 competition (designed by Sudaev)

            Doesn't she remind you of anything?

            The AC-44 operates with a skewed bolt, like the SKS, rather than with a rotating bolt.
          2. +3
            20 November 2023 16: 15
            The barrel of the AS-44 is locked by a skewed bolt, and there is automatic gas removal from the barrel, like the Sturmgever Schmeisser.
            1. Fat
              +2
              21 November 2023 12: 03
              Don't lie to yourself
              Quote from solar
              automation for removing gases from the barrel, like the Sturmgever Schmeisser.

              The gas outlet in Kalashnikov's design is revolutionary; no one before him had thought of drilling a barrel for automatic gas outlet at a calculated acute angle. All craftsmen relied on adjusting screws. Yes
    5. -4
      20 November 2023 07: 55
      You are not reading carefully, Alexey. The article says: "But it is clear that the latter was never a copy of it." And it’s simply stupid to deny the conceptual influence.
      1. +6
        20 November 2023 11: 31
        Vyacheslav, conceptually since the 14th century, guns have not changed, there is a barrel and a carriage.... first they loaded from the muzzle, then from the treasury, then cap loading, unitary and separate, recoil devices appeared instead of rolling back the entire carriage... but conceptually nothing has changed good laughing
        1. Fat
          +1
          20 November 2023 16: 51
          Conceptually - sliding frames of the carriage of a towed artillery piece, if you have a bit of military training you will understand.
          1. 0
            20 November 2023 23: 35
            It was not at first that the archer’s “stands” held the balance, and only then did Da Vinci design his Stg.
            1. Fat
              +1
              21 November 2023 12: 27
              Longbow is a special “caste” of professional shooters. No one knows for certain how they developed their “beds” and organisms...
              And yes, the goofball from Vinci, he designed slightly different systems, most often for the female part laughing crying drinks
    6. -2
      20 November 2023 08: 04
      Quote from Enceladus
      The bullet flies 2 km for about 5-6 seconds

      The initial speed of the SVD rifle bullet is 830 m/s. So the distance is 2 km. the bullet will travel in 2.5 seconds.
      1. +11
        20 November 2023 08: 38
        The initial speed of the SVD rifle bullet is 830 m/s. So the distance is 2 km. the bullet will travel in 2.5 seconds.
        You don’t know that aerodynamic drag depends on the square of the speed. Do you think that the muzzle velocity is maintained throughout the entire journey?
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +8
        20 November 2023 10: 43
        Quote: South Ukrainian
        The initial speed of the SVD rifle bullet is 830 m/s. So the distance is 2 km. the bullet travels in 2.5 seconds

        Sergey has already answered for me.
        In a vacuum, yes... even spherical horses fly there laughing
      3. +3
        20 November 2023 18: 18
        Quote: South Ukrainian
        The initial speed of the SVD rifle bullet is 830 m/s. So the distance is 2 km. the bullet will travel in 2.5 seconds.

        Your equipment sucks...


        And shooting at 2 km from an SVD is a serious theory...
        1. 0
          20 November 2023 18: 22
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          And shooting at 2 km from an SVD is a serious theory...

          If it’s a question and answer for me, I didn’t write that with the SVD they shoot at 2 km... the optimal range is 300-500 meters. Max. 600 to 900/1000, but depends on the specific instance and is usually reloaded by the shooter himself
          1. +1
            20 November 2023 19: 03
            Quote from Enceladus
            If you have a question and answer for me,

            So I didn’t answer you, but the comrade of the South Ukrainian... :)
      4. The comment was deleted.
    7. Fat
      +3
      20 November 2023 14: 33
      Quote from Enceladus
      At this point I stopped reading...

      Your frankness is impressive. You don’t have to read at all; you are as responsible for the words as you “ignore” them. You don’t want to burden your extremely overworked eyesight and tired brains with text. Make it perfect - just don't go to this site wassat
      1. +6
        20 November 2023 14: 52
        Yes, I read, I read.... you just have to be friendly with the terminology, since you are writing on a weapons topic. I didn’t give Minosov to anyone lol hi
        1. -1
          20 November 2023 15: 46
          Quote from Enceladus
          I didn’t give Minosov to anyone

          By the way, I didn’t give you any minuses either.
    8. +1
      21 November 2023 15: 22
      Quote from Enceladus
      The best specimens, even SVD, are 1.2 moa, in fact, the majority are about 2+- 0.3... The bullet flies 2 km for about 5-6 seconds. You need to take into account the wind, the height of the target, the BC.... so these are all fairy tales, if they shot at group targets.


      The way it is. The crazy numbers on rifle sights of that time were precisely intended for volley shooting at group targets. With the advent of machine guns, the need for salvo shooting from rifles over long distances disappeared, and accordingly the question arose about the excess power of a rifle cartridge.
      By the way, at that time most rifle sights were graduated in steps. The 1891 model sight for the Mosin rifle had a graduation of up to 3200 steps.
  2. +3
    20 November 2023 04: 48
    The history of Kalash must be considered from the history of the domestic intermediate cartridge. What made us develop it.
    1. +6
      20 November 2023 06: 13
      Well, 7,62x39 was adopted back in 43.... in general, it is not a cartridge for a weapon that is being developed, but a weapon for a cartridge. Developments were actually carried out long before World War II.
      1. +1
        20 November 2023 16: 18
        Yeah, they accepted it. Just not 7,62x39, but 7,62x41.
        Development was completed by 1949, and, despite the name, the final sample of the cartridge was very different from the original sample of 1943, which had a sleeve 41 mm long.

        And first they decided to create weapons.
        In the winter of 1942-1943, Soviet troops on the Volkhov Front took possession of captured Mkb.42(H) automatic carbines. The new machine gun attracted the attention of the Soviet military, and in July 1943, at a special meeting of the technical council of the People's Commissariat of Armaments, they started talking about foreign automatic rifles. We were talking not only about the Mkb.42(H), but also about the American M1 Carbine 7,62x33 mm caliber supplied under the Lend-Lease program. Based on the results of the discussion, it was decided that it was possible and necessary to create weapons of a similar class with an effective firing range of about 400–500 m[3]. However, since such ammunition did not exist in the USSR, a decision was made to develop a new intermediate cartridge (reduced power)[2].
    2. 0
      20 November 2023 08: 07
      Quote: Pavel57
      What made us develop it.

      Intelligence reports that in Germany they are persistently doing this!
    3. Fat
      +3
      20 November 2023 16: 21
      Quote: Pavel57
      What made us develop it.

      The wretchedness of the 7,62x54 mm R. This cartridge has survived for so many years only thanks to its unconditional manufacturability and the semi-automatic machines for its production that were installed under the Tsar. This cartridge, for all its power, is of little use for creating automatic weapons. Our engineers were partly able to overcome the shortcomings of rimmed cartridges and therefore this relic of the era is still relevant.
      7.62x39 is the first cartridge made in the USSR without a flange, with grooves. And it was so well thought out that all the equipment is still relevant today.
      In the USSR they knew how to do things with perspective!
      1. +4
        20 November 2023 16: 38
        Quote: Thick
        7.62x39 is the first cartridge made in the USSR without a flange, with grooves. And it was so well thought out that all the equipment is still relevant today.

        But wasn’t the first domestic serial cartridge without a rim the “7,62 mm pistol cartridge model 1930” - 7,62 x 25 TT, released under license 7,63 x 25 Mauser -?
        1. +3
          20 November 2023 16: 58
          Quote: Lynnot
          released under license

          You yourself answered your own question, we were “friends” with Germany at that time, emnip machines were purchased from them. as well as under 6,35 Browning, etc. pistols that we used
          1. 0
            20 November 2023 23: 26
            Quote from Enceladus
            You yourself answered your own question, we were “friends” with Germany then, emnip machines were purchased from them

            So at first they came from the German line like Mauser ones. Later, the cartridge was, as it were, optimized and it became completely domestic and widespread for domestic weapons.
      2. +3
        20 November 2023 16: 41
        I wrote about the same thing in another thread. But I note that with belt feeding it’s the other way around - the edge increases reliability and simplifies feeding... so it’s a double-edged sword. But it is precisely the simplicity of production and low tolerance requirements that make it possible to make them on a cosmic scale and in machine guns, which are still in demand and I don’t think that they will be abandoned until the appearance of any alternative physical principles. So it will be used for the next 100 years good
        1. Fat
          0
          21 November 2023 12: 32
          It’s a pity, my friend, that I’m not able to give you 10 pluses.
      3. 0
        26 November 2023 00: 40
        "This cartridge, for all its power, is of little use for creating automatic weapons."
        This cartridge made the creation of ShKAS possible. In general, there are no problems with tape feeding. (You can, of course, object to direct mailing.)
        It is poorly suited only for clipped magazine equipment, requiring a cut-off.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
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  4. +6
    20 November 2023 06: 04
    “Why did you put the Kalashnikov assault rifle there?”

    Y. Stoner probably knew who invented the AK assault rifle
  5. +2
    20 November 2023 06: 16
    The article seems to have been invented for the sake of one phrase “they listened with their mouths open”... If only because the museum exhibits have signs explaining their origin.
    1. -4
      20 November 2023 08: 03
      Quote: ivan2022
      The article seems to have been invented for the sake of one phrase “they listened with their mouths open”... If only because the museum exhibits have signs explaining their origin.

      The article seems to have been invented for smart readers. Not using it in the morning. So you were in the Penza Museum and you know what was written on the sign under the “coffin of fascism”. Well, you have to...
    2. -4
      20 November 2023 08: 52
      Quote: ivan2022
      signs explaining their origin.

      For the future, remember: NOT ONE MUSEUM PLATE INDICATES THE ORIGIN OF AN EXHIBIT. It is in the magazine, which contains its description. And so, why don’t they write where the exhibit is from on the plaques, unless it’s a personal gift from someone.
      1. +8
        20 November 2023 09: 32
        It is mandatory to indicate on the signs under archaeological finds.
        1. +1
          20 November 2023 10: 18
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          It is mandatory to indicate on the signs under archaeological finds.

          "Gever" does not apply to archeology.
      2. +1
        20 November 2023 11: 43
        Quote: kalibr
        ORIGIN OF THE EXHIBIT

        This is how you educate people, you enlighten them. And they give you minuses...No thanks to say!
        1. +5
          20 November 2023 13: 27
          Personally, I didn’t put any minuses - although I threw my thoughts on the fan laughing
        2. Fat
          +3
          20 November 2023 14: 55
          Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich smile
          Well... No matter how much you enlighten us... we’ll all go away with a “special” opinion wassat 80 percent...
          Definitely ...
          1. +1
            20 November 2023 15: 50
            Quote: Thick
            Definitely.

            I’m not against critical comments, Andrey Borisovich. But well-founded, and not just made up. Justified ones only benefit. They allow you to correct inaccuracies and errors that are inevitable.
            1. Fat
              +2
              20 November 2023 17: 15
              Of course, Vyacheslav Olegovich, the presence of open enemies of “racism” on the site may seem like news to you. So I am a pronounced RASHIST from their point of view, but in fact, I just love My Diverse Homeland without philosophical and political problems. My country must be independent and for this to be extremely strong both in technology, economics, and in science and pseudo-scientific philosophy. One thing is constant - history.
              So we will win and illuminate the facts, as never before and undefeated by anyone. Will live.
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. -2
                20 November 2023 18: 01
                Quote: Thick
                I just love My Diverse Motherland without philosophical and political problems. My country must be independent and for this to be extremely strong both in technology, economics, and in science and pseudo-scientific philosophy.

                And I...
  6. +7
    20 November 2023 06: 24
    Because almost no excursion was complete without the question: “Why did you put a Kalashnikov assault rifle there?”
    Well, only a person who has never held an AK in his hands could say this...
    1. +4
      20 November 2023 07: 04
      Quote: svp67
      Well, only a person who has never held an AK in his hands could say this...

      And not allowed on the internet. laughing
    2. -2
      20 November 2023 08: 04
      Quote: svp67
      Because almost no excursion was complete without the question: “Why did you put a Kalashnikov assault rifle there?”
      Well, only a person who has never held an AK in his hands could say this...

      This really surprised me. But you can’t erase the words from the song. It was strange to encounter this in our country. But it was.
      1. +6
        20 November 2023 10: 23
        It’s not surprising, even on the monument to Mikhail Kalashnikov, unveiled in September 2017, a Sturmgewehr scheme was discovered. This mistake was pointed out by Yuri Pasholok, not to mention ordinary museum visitors.
        1. +1
          21 November 2023 22: 11
          No, it takes 40 years from the museum to the monument. Completely different people... I don’t know a Soviet person, a museum visitor, that is, an interested person, who, upon seeing for the first time, recognized the beggar monster of the war years, a tin Stg44, as a post-war, smooth, milled, blued and varnished AK. The author takes what he wants for what happened.

          And there was a provocation with the monument.
      2. -1
        20 November 2023 18: 14
        In the USSR there was very little information about weapons. Especially about foreign ones. Mention of Stg 44 appeared very rarely in the literature. The memoirs were apparently filtered. In Przymanowski Janusz's book "Four Tankmen and a Dog" there were wonderful illustrations by G. Malakov where the Sturmgewehr was shown. And probably for the first time in Soviet literature. Sometimes it also appeared in films, but without explanation. Even in BES it is not shown. But there were common features with AK. In general, weapons illiteracy of the population of the USSR. What would you like.
        1. +3
          20 November 2023 19: 54
          In the USSR there was very little information about weapons.
          This is from the Khrushchev era and everything from Brezhnev right up to the catastrophe. And as a child, I read with great interest with friends a book about sniper business, published under Stalin, where everything was in an accessible language about weapons, and about determining range in thousandths, about camouflage, etc. It was Khrushchev Kukuruzny who decided that he was the only one A 100 Mt bomb will bring about world peace, but there is no need to promote weapons - “the fight for peace.”
          1. -1
            21 November 2023 07: 55
            Quote: Aviator_
            where everything was in accessible language about weapons, and about determining range in thousandths, about camouflage, etc.

            T-M also wrote very interesting things about weapons and their design, with amazing drawings, during the war years. This is exactly the good thing that needed to be preserved and increased!
    3. +3
      20 November 2023 14: 39
      svp67. Not to mention not holding, not even seeing, either AK or Stg. This is the same as in that joke when the Japanese saw a Georgian and an Armenian in the elevator. For them, all Russians look the same.
  7. +4
    20 November 2023 07: 59
    Quote: Old electrician
    Because of this, in the 19th century the sighting range of a smoothbore gun was about only 70 m.


    There were rifles, “shtutser”, capable of hitting a single target at long distances, although they were expensive and took longer to load. In Britain there were units armed with rifles and operating in loose formation, among others.
    1. +4
      20 November 2023 08: 21
      By the way, in our museum I held in my hands a beautifully made Martini-Henry sporting rifle with a varnished stock (tiger finish!). With diopter sight. Before that, I held it in my hands and wrote about it on VO about the Army Martini-Henry. The difference is very big!
  8. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      20 November 2023 08: 41
      Quote: Letterhead
      What are these goals? "Battalion on the March"?

      Don't know. The sights have a rifling of more than 1000 m and I didn’t do it...
      1. +4
        20 November 2023 10: 59
        On a Mauser (pistol) under 7,63x25 it was also 1000 meters, so what?
        Such markings on sights were used only when shooting at group targets and nothing more, and not by 1 shooter, but also by a group. Let's just say it's good luck. Let's just say this was not used in World War I and they simply made sights by inertia.
        1. -4
          20 November 2023 15: 52
          Quote from Enceladus
          On a Mauser (pistol) under 7,63x25 it was also 1000 meters, so what?

          And nothing. I just write what is there. And building complex conclusions... that's not for me.
        2. 0
          21 November 2023 22: 18
          Another way they used it... By cavalry.
  9. +4
    20 November 2023 08: 37
    What kind of sleeve is this with a diameter of 46 mm?!
    1. +6
      20 November 2023 09: 03
      This is a VERY special sleeve! When fired, it deflated to normal size...
    2. +1
      21 November 2023 22: 20
      Same as "line of sight distance". No, Caliber writes more interestingly and professionally about medieval beer wink
  10. +6
    20 November 2023 08: 39
    Quote: South Ukrainian
    Quote from Enceladus
    The bullet flies 2 km for about 5-6 seconds

    The initial speed of the SVD rifle bullet is 830 m/s. So the distance is 2 km. the bullet will travel in 2.5 seconds.

    Oh, take it easy, you can’t do that with math and physics. Let's introduce corrections for the drop in bullet speed
  11. +4
    20 November 2023 08: 52
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Letterhead
    What are these goals? "Battalion on the March"?

    Don't know. The sights have a rifling of more than 1000 m and I didn’t do it...

    I was quick to comment because of the modern understanding of rifle fire. And then that’s exactly how it was, group targets, volley fire. I deleted the original comment so as not to show my own illiteracy)
    1. +2
      20 November 2023 09: 00
      Yes, there were other ideas at that time. A bunch of Mausers passed through my hands, and German, and Spanish, and Swedish, and... "Mannlicher", "Wincheswehr" 1895, "Mosinka", many... and everywhere the scale was more than 1000, both in meters and in steps. Although in steps it was probably just a kilometer. We should generally write an article about sights and provide it with photographs of the sights of different rifles. Work, actually, is still the same - they’re not at my home...
      1. +3
        20 November 2023 22: 32
        Yes, there were other ideas at that time. A bunch of Mausers passed through my hands, and German, and Spanish, and Swedish, and... "Mannlicher", "Winchester" 1895, "Mosinka", many...


        And the effect was similar to that mentioned in the fable “The Monkey and the Glasses.”
  12. +5
    20 November 2023 09: 03
    What kind of sleeve is this with a diameter of 46 mm? From a 37 mm anti-tank gun? wink
    Perhaps "length"? Ideas about switching to an intermediate cartridge hovered in the air for a long time before materializing, in the Union - Fedorov, in Germany, their guardians for the intermediate cartridge.
  13. +4
    20 November 2023 09: 35
    Words. Words. Assault RIFLE chambered for a non-rifle cartridge.
    Half of the people confuse “proper name” with classification and because of this there is so much confusion.
  14. +5
    20 November 2023 10: 55
    Whatever one may say, the Fedorov assault rifle is the world’s first assault rifle with the implementation of the concept of an intermediate cartridge.
    It’s just that we have a lot of pseudo-historians whose task is to belittle everything created in the USSR.
    1. +8
      20 November 2023 11: 08
      Actually, Fedorov created his machine gun for the 6,5x50 Arisaka in 1916, the USSR didn’t have anything to do with it for another 6 years.
      1. +5
        20 November 2023 11: 22
        Actually, Fedorov created his machine gun for the 6,5x50 Arisaka in 1916, the USSR didn’t have anything to do with it for another 6 years.


        Naturally, no one denies this. But what an ambush, if he had gone into exile like Sikorsky, he would have been respected and loved by the entire world community, including the leadership of the Russian Federation.
        But he stayed.


        And the production of the machine gun began already in the Soviet years. RI was awarded only to the company.
        1. -3
          20 November 2023 11: 39
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          And the production of the machine gun began already in the Soviet years.

          How many of them were produced in the USSR and until what year were they produced? Yes, and they were produced on imperial equipment.
          1. +2
            20 November 2023 12: 23
            How many SVTs and ABC-36s were produced after industrialization?
            1. +4
              20 November 2023 13: 33
              I don’t remember the numbers, but definitely more than 1 million (too lazy to google) I’m talking about ABC/SVT. It seems that according to the staff, the department was entitled to several pieces (but as a rule, not to ordinary shooters, but to sergeants and above), because they are much more difficult to maintain and required knowledge and skills. Without proper care, they gave a wedge. The Germans are a more pedantic people - the SVT-40 went off with a bang, but for us, yes - there were a lot of complaints from the front like, why do they keep getting stuck laughing
              1. Fat
                +7
                20 November 2023 15: 20
                Oh no need. The SVT is a wonderful rifle in many ways. Only it required special care. It's clear. Even Petrukha from “White Sun” refused to work. smile
                1. +5
                  20 November 2023 15: 29
                  And I didn’t say that Svetka was bad. Grandfather had to shoot from it, in Riga as part of the 3rd Red Guard.... I don’t remember him speaking badly about it recourse . I didn’t shoot with it, I only had the opportunity to hold one in my hands (it was involved in one case, but I couldn’t get to the investigative shooting). I shot with the SKS - that's great! good But disassembling/assembling and cleaning is still a pleasure wassat
              2. +3
                20 November 2023 15: 55
                Quote from Enceladus
                but here we have, yes - there were a lot of complaints from the front like, why do they keep jamming

                Complaints came from “peasants”! There were no reports from sailors. There the level was higher and the weapons were looked after properly.
                1. +4
                  20 November 2023 16: 13
                  The situation is the same with the VSS - it has a black barrel (that is, not chrome-plated). After shooting, the sooner you cleaned it, the better... We took the AS VAL for hunting for a day or two, although its accuracy was worse. By the way, the magazines hardly used 20s at all, and if they did, they loaded 14-15 rounds of ammunition - delays due to distortions or under-filling were frequent. And the stores are very often not native, even 10 - they were undersupplied.
                  ZY well, that's actually what I was talking about lol Any weapon loves caress, cleaning and lubrication (c). Although I had a PSM - I didn’t clean it or lubricate it for several years - then when I handed it over to the cops, I shot the existing packs of cartridges. No delay, no distortion. good There was only 1 protracted and 1 misfire. But the cartridges were old.
                  1. Fat
                    +4
                    20 November 2023 18: 12
                    Alexey, With all due respect. Such details! Didn’t your grandfather serve in the 5th Airborne Forces in July 1942? Has the SMC passed? or directly to the 39th division in the regiment? And to Stalingrad?
                    “Mon-Papa” told me about Svetka’s peculiarity. He was also fluent in bayonet fighting. For the first time - a bayonet knife.
                    Paratroopers!
                    1. Fat
                      +3
                      20 November 2023 18: 23
                      I will recover the 39th division, that is, to the paratroopers from 200 to 400 specialists, at least 6000 recruits, including officers, were added. I know almost the entire route of the regiment, including the last firing position of the 82 mm mortar battery...
                      And so that I die before they tell me that my father robbed the colonies in Ukraine....
                    2. +2
                      20 November 2023 18: 37
                      I wrote that my grandfather was a sniper and was part of the 3rd, i.e. was given, I did not write in the 3rd hi
                      Company snipers, yes, they are in their specific company (emnip on staff 2 people and 2 second numbers), and counter-snipers belong to their units and are assigned to various units for support, depending on the tasks being solved and are temporarily subordinate to the company commander, even a platoon, although he may have a higher rank. I didn’t really delve into it like right now - it was like that with us before.
              3. -1
                20 November 2023 20: 09
                Quote from Enceladus
                (too lazy to google)

                You didn't understand the meaning of the question. Yes
            2. Fat
              +1
              20 November 2023 19: 27
              More than one and a half million copies. Don't believe me? find everything yourself!
            3. 0
              21 November 2023 11: 37
              How many SVTs and ABC-36s were produced after industrialization?

              So they wanted to re-equip all rifle units with automatic rifles. Did not have time. I had to put the mosquitoes again as simpler ones on the stream.
          2. +4
            20 November 2023 16: 31
            How many of them were produced in the USSR and until what year were they produced? Yes, and they were produced on imperial equipment.


            More than three thousand copies, continue crunching your buns.
            1. -1
              20 November 2023 17: 52
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              More than three thousand copies,

              What a great achievement of socialism. And they bought 30000 Mausers for the NKVD, right?
              1. +3
                20 November 2023 20: 59
                What a great achievement of socialism.


                Who else did something like this?
                1. -5
                  21 November 2023 07: 51
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  Who else did something like this?

                  What? 3000 machines? Many...
                  1. +3
                    21 November 2023 10: 03

                    What? 3000 machines? Many...


                    Well, give examples.
                    1. -2
                      21 November 2023 12: 15
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Well, give examples.

                      I'll bring it. Vladimir suggested an excellent topic to me: about the history of automatic rifles and carbines. Everything will be there.
            2. -4
              20 November 2023 17: 55
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              Continue crunching the buns.

              Why write this? You think I am offended by the statements of ignoramuses like you, not at all. And I answer you now, do you know why? To “get it” and promote it for a couple more comments. There are already more than 100 of them and the more there are, the better!
              1. +3
                20 November 2023 21: 03

                Why write this? You think I am offended by the statements of ignoramuses like you, not at all. And I answer you now, do you know why? To “get it” and promote it for a couple more comments. There are already more than 100 of them and the more there are, the better!


                Are you a model of your outlook? lol
            3. Fat
              0
              20 November 2023 19: 47
              double exaggeration. It’s not good, we need to dig.
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              More than three thousand copies, continue crunching your buns.

              double exaggeration....you have to dig WELL. Officially, no more than 1.5 million “lights”, but they entered the troops since 1936. My father owned SVT - he was a paratrooper from the beginning. Completely, right up to bayonet fighting. The instructor got burned during the reorganization of the paratroopers into the infantry of the 39th division. You can't make 300 riflemen out of 14000 scumbags.... Eternal Memory to the Division's riflemen! That's why we are the guard!
            4. Fat
              0
              20 November 2023 20: 55
              No. A two-fold exaggeration. The industry should have given...
              Not given.
          3. +4
            20 November 2023 18: 22
            They were produced until 1928 and made about 4 thousand.
          4. Alf
            0
            20 November 2023 20: 08
            Quote: kalibr
            How many of them were produced in the USSR and until what year were they produced?

            Too lazy to even look at Vika? Don't bother, otherwise you'll suddenly find out...
        2. +1
          20 November 2023 18: 20
          This is a photo of Tokarev, not V.G. Fedorov. Fedorov was never given a star. There were complaints against him from Voroshilov.
        3. +3
          20 November 2023 19: 53
          Actually, this is Tokarev. Fedorov was not awarded the Gold Star. And yes, they have the same mustache.
      2. Fat
        +3
        20 November 2023 15: 16
        Fedorov created an assault rifle chambered for his own cartridge. The Arisaka cartridge basically corresponded to the machine gun; Fedorov adapted it for these cartridges in 16, since they (and the rifles) were purchased by the tsarist government to a “sufficient” extent.
      3. 0
        21 November 2023 22: 27
        Before the revolution, 200 pieces were produced. Fedorov assault rifle. And in 1919-25 they produced 3200 units, accepted them into service, fought with an assault rifle, incl. in WWII. There are photos, it looks good. So the USSR and the Red Army are very much on topic.
    2. +3
      20 November 2023 12: 57
      Whatever one may say, the Arisaka cartridge is a 6,5 × 50 mm rifle cartridge (muzzle energy 2615 J), and no one considers it or did not consider it an intermediate cartridge, it is an ordinary rifle cartridge. Fedorov’s own cartridge was even more powerful than the Arisaka cartridge and was not very different from the standard Russian rifle cartridge then accepted
      Fedorov's cartridge had a muzzle energy of about 3100 J (versus 3600-4000 J for the standard Russian 7,62 mm cartridge)

      and was clearly not intermediate.
      hi
      1. +1
        20 November 2023 13: 37
        Muzzle energy and recoil impulse are 2 different things, a lighter and faster bullet can produce more energy with less recoil impulse. Therefore, it is incorrect to evaluate from the point of view of the operation of automation and recoil measured in joules.
        I think everyone remembers the 7th grade formulas. E = m * V^2 / 2, I = m * V
        1. -1
          20 November 2023 14: 02
          I wonder why the total energy of matter according to Einstein is simply m * c^2, and not half what wassat
          1. +1
            20 November 2023 20: 02
            I wonder why the total energy of matter according to Einstein is simply m * c^2, and not half
            This is the energy contained in the mass. Feynman in his lectures in the first volume has a good derivation of this formula, I tell the students, taking it from there.
            1. Fat
              0
              20 November 2023 21: 02
              Crap! you're an engineer! What do Lorentz transformations matter? Yes, there are a lot of mikryuts... for conversation.... People are still drinking themselves to death.
              Energy, damn it, um tse square? Yes, there are a whole series of assumptions!
              1. +1
                20 November 2023 22: 26
                I know, I was just kidding - we took it in the 1st semester (Physics Faculty of Moscow State University - Nikolsky read)
              2. +1
                20 November 2023 23: 01
                Crap! you're an engineer! What do Lorentz transformations matter?
                Andrey, the Lorentz-Fitzgerald transformation is relativistic kinematics, and E = Mc^2 is relativistic dynamics.
                1. Fat
                  +1
                  21 November 2023 13: 03
                  You're right, friend. But whatever one may say, E = Mc^2 is a populist tweak smile
        2. +1
          20 November 2023 14: 25
          Energy release is proportional squared recoil impulse, if you don't know. So what?
          Nothing that has been written refutes the fact that neither Arisaka’s cartridge, nor, especially, Fedorov’s cartridge are intermediate.
          1. +2
            20 November 2023 22: 42
            And not about energy recoil said - namely, impulse, maybe. For energy, everything is more complicated there. The mass of gunpowder, its speed, the presence of a propellant/can, the type of automation, etc. are also taken into account.
        3. +1
          21 November 2023 22: 44
          Exactly. We tried to reduce the recoil impulse, if at the same time we managed to maintain muzzle energy, so much the better.
      2. Fat
        +1
        21 November 2023 13: 16
        Quote from solar
        Whatever one may say, the Arisaka cartridge is a 6,5 × 50 mm rifle cartridge (muzzle energy 2615 J), and no one considers it and did not consider it an intermediate cartridge

        Before the First World War, there were still conferences at the hands of drivers. agreements sometimes even limited the caliber of rifles. But they decided that Caliber in the 4th line was “not humane.” The Japas went in full compliance with the charter. They took 6,5 as a basis. Others are not, although the transition of the Russian army to three lines cannot be called “painless.”
        For its time.... Arisaka is the most conventional weapon.
  15. +3
    20 November 2023 10: 57
    In the 19th century, it was customary to fight in tightly closed ranks (since one of the main types of combat was the bayonet, especially when meeting with cavalry), until the machine gun, which appeared in significant quantities, weaned the military from this bad habit. But long rifles, the task of which was to shoot at a group target in the form of a tightly closed column of infantry or all sorts of squares (or even a dense group of loose formation), migrated from the 19th century to the 20th. When it became obvious that there was no point in shooting at 2 km more, long and inconvenient rifles began to be shortened, not fully using the capabilities of the cartridge, and calling it a carbine, but this was a half-measure. In reality, the correspondence between the length of the barrel and the power of the cartridge appeared only with the intermediate cartridge.
    The Americans had every opportunity to create an effective and lightweight carbine chambered for an intermediate cartridge, as the main infantry weapon, capable of operating at real combat distances, but for some reason they made it chambered for a powerful pistol cartridge - and received the M1 Carbine for a limited range of tasks.
  16. +1
    20 November 2023 10: 58
    Dear author, what mark is pierced under the cocking handle? I couldn't see it in the photo, unfortunately.
    1. -1
      20 November 2023 11: 41
      Quote: Olgerd Gediminovich
      Dear author, what mark is pierced under the cocking handle? I couldn't see it in the photo, unfortunately.

      Alas, me too!
      1. +3
        20 November 2023 15: 51
        Dear author, what mark is pierced under the cocking handle?

        Usually at this place there are three types of stamps - MP 43, MP 44, StG 44





        If the mark differs from these three, then it is a mock-up.
        1. -1
          20 November 2023 17: 47
          Quote: Dekabrist
          this is a layout.

          Rock Island Auctions does not sell them.
          1. +2
            20 November 2023 18: 13
            But here we are discussing a sample from the museum. Must be real.
          2. +3
            20 November 2023 19: 40
            Rock Island Auctions does not sell them.

            Firstly, your photo is not from rockislandauction, where the brand is clearly visible, but from littlegun. But in your photo, if you work with the appropriate software, you can see that “MP 44”.

            1. Fat
              0
              20 November 2023 21: 20
              I don’t often have to sharply indicate “the plot is going to pieces,” but your notes are excellent, Victor. I see, as it were, the past, the present, and what would be the forecast?
              Would you like to go on a sex trip?
              Fuck it!
              They believe... It would be nice to believe in themselves! Anytime....
        2. +5
          20 November 2023 18: 40
          Judging by the shape of the front sight and barrel of the museum sample, it must be an MP-43, MP-44 or StG-44 (early assembly). You can indirectly judge the model by the mark above the magazine shaft. For MP-43 and MP-43/I the number must end in “43”, for MP-44 – in “44”, for StG-44 – in “45”. Below I will give examples.
          Unfortunately, in the photo in the article the number above the shaft is also indistinguishable.
  17. +2
    20 November 2023 11: 16
    The question arose - why 7,62 × 39, and not 7,62 × 41?
    1. +3
      20 November 2023 12: 35
      Initially they made 7,62 ×41, but a year later they developed another bullet - a longer one with a steel core. In order not to change the overall length of the cartridge, the cartridge case was shortened to fit the new bullet.

      A year later, a new bullet was developed - elongated, with a more pointed nose, a conical rear part and a steel core, which reduced the consumption of scarce lead. Due to the need not to increase the overall length of the cartridge, after lengthening the bullet, the ammunition received a sleeve shortened by 2,5 millimeters and other dimensions were slightly changed and was accepted for supply in this form. It went down in history under the name 7,62x39
      1. +2
        20 November 2023 13: 43
        Not only that, but there was also a question from the point of view of internal ballistics. I could voice it - but alas, this literature is chipboard (for forensic experts, designers, etc.) and I cannot post the information.
        ZY internal ballistics, oddly enough (it is also called ballistics) - these are the processes that occur during the burning of gunpowder and until the bullet leaves the barrel - then external. But we must also take into account the influence of powder gases on the bullet, even after the bullet has ejected to a certain distance from the muzzle. This also applies to internal ballistics. Believe me, a lot depends on the structure of the capsule, its dimensions, the shape of the bullet and its shrinkage into the cartridge case, the shape of the cartridge case, the number of rifling, the material of the shell, the type of bullet entrance, the type of gunpowder, its geometric shape and the % of the cartridge case fullness. And there are tables of gunpowders, etc.
        Z.Y.Y. The question is how do I know? At school a. father was a deputy police officer. b. was familiar with Espert's criminologist. I planned to enter with a specialization in trace science and internal/external ballistics of weapons. I even wrote programs for calculations back in the 8th grade in C++ using numerical methods. There, the burning of gunpowder is almost a kilometer long, and several dozen different parameters are taken into account.
        1. -1
          20 November 2023 15: 58
          Quote from Enceladus
          The question is how do I know? At school a. father was a deputy police officer. b. was familiar with Espert's criminologist. I planned to enter with a specialization in trace science and internal/external ballistics of weapons. I even wrote programs for calculations back in the 8th grade in C++ using numerical methods. There, the burning of gunpowder is almost a kilometer long, and several dozen different parameters are taken into account.

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          1. +7
            20 November 2023 16: 07
            Don’t rush to add up - the character is carrying a pseudo-scientific blizzard.
            1. 0
              20 November 2023 17: 46
              Quote: Dekabrist
              pseudo-scientific blizzard.

              Well, if he wrote all this, then he should look into it? I'm used to trusting people...
        2. +2
          20 November 2023 16: 05
          but alas, this literature is chipboard

          And what is “chipboard” in terms of internal ballistics? What settings?
          1. -3
            20 November 2023 16: 49
            Well, I can say that the formulas there are much more difficult than those that are publicly available. If in the year 2003-2006 it was still possible to “Google” it on the Internet, now everything has been cleared out a long time ago. Calculation of the same PM using them gives an error of 9% even if you have a gunpowder passport, but using emergency guns the calculation gives 0,5-1%, which is within the error.
            Quote: Dekabrist
            Don’t rush to add up - the character is carrying a pseudo-scientific blizzard.

            What will your evidence be like? (c) Cocaineum?
            1. +2
              20 November 2023 17: 01
              What will your evidence be like? (c) Cocaineum?

              No need for any proof here. Simple textbooks on ballistics and forensics are enough to determine that you are simply polluting the airwaves. There are many individuals like you, “working under the guise of chipboard,” on the Internet. It would have been stupid to waste my energy on you.
              1. 0
                20 November 2023 17: 09
                And then why not immediately? laughing hi
                Quote: Dekabrist
                Simple textbooks on ballistics and forensics are enough to determine that you are simply polluting the airwaves

                Well then, do the calculations yourself using these simple textbooks and don’t pollute the airwaves lol
                1. 0
                  20 November 2023 17: 21
                  Well then, do the calculations yourself using these simple textbooks and don’t pollute the airwaves

                  Calculations for what? What mysterious things are you planning to calculate using some mysterious formulas? Name at least one parameter.
                  1. +2
                    20 November 2023 17: 31
                    Well then answer a simple question. How does the geometric shape of gunpowder affect the burning rate, what does it depend on? Using the most basic examples - spherical, cylindrical, tubular and lamellar.
                    1. -3
                      20 November 2023 17: 44
                      Quote from Enceladus
                      tubular

                      Burns faster. Did you guess right?
                      1. +2
                        20 November 2023 17: 59
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I guess?
                        lol You should know, right? hi
                        By burning rate:
                        1. Lamellar (provides high specific density, but cannot be “rammed”, mainly for hunting (a typical example is falcon)
                        2. Spherical - pistol powder, usually (P-125) and hunting (leopard, for example)
                        3. Tubular - progressively burning more rifle and is used incl. in artillery guns
                        4. Cylindrical - the slowest, rifle only.

                        The burning rate of gunpowder increases with pressure, but not linearly - there is an integral equation that can only be solved numerically.

                        In addition, a lot depends on the capsule, its torch and shape (for example, the same falcon can misfire on a central striker (aka Boxer capsule), in Zhevelo some hunters, for example, even add a couple of grains of a pistol), the material of the cartridge case (brass, bimetal, steel varnished), distance of the bullet from the rifling (entrance). The shape of the bullet bottom - conical, for example, ensures more uniform burning, etc. Those formulas take all this into account - what is now publicly available gives an error of +- 5%. In addition, the type of gunpowder also affects (for example, there are nitroglycerin gunpowders - 2-component or even 3-component), etc.
                        Well, if this is a pseudo-scientific blizzard according to you, then I’ll take your word for it lol hi
                      2. +5
                        20 November 2023 19: 50
                        Tubular - with zero progression. The decrease in the external combustion area is compensated by an increase in the internal area of ​​the tube. The most degressive is spherical. The most progressive is multi-channel.
                      3. +2
                        20 November 2023 23: 39
                        For a single-channel, yes, everything is true, but when the outer side is coated with phlegmatizers/nitroguanidine, it becomes progressive. I won’t say rifled in a rifle, but it’s quite used in hunting weapons
                      4. -3
                        21 November 2023 07: 45
                        Quote from Enceladus
                        I guess?
                        You should know, right?

                        "I guessed" sounds more tempting...
                      5. 0
                        21 November 2023 12: 18
                        Quote: kalibr
                        "I guessed" sounds more tempting...

                        You see - I'm right - it sounds more tempting. Two at once..., "lured" and made two clicks. Here - 2, here 2... and the number of clicks grows.
                      6. 0
                        22 November 2023 03: 00
                        I said, I didn’t give any minuses... for particularly zealous Decembrists, yes, I fired a volley from cannons soldier
                      7. 0
                        21 November 2023 22: 56
                        5% accuracy is more than enough for any calculation. Next - enough C++, let's go to the training ground wink
                      8. 0
                        22 November 2023 03: 11
                        I meant internal ballistics - you can’t really measure it... formulas are all interpolated based on the results of the shot. They are all solved by numerical methods. All shooting tables are given for the average cartridge as a result of shooting. But is it true that when shooting from the same KSVK 7N34 at the stated 1,5 km, due to the cartridge (factory shell), the spread in height can give up to a meter?
                    2. +1
                      20 November 2023 19: 51
                      Well then answer a simple question. How does the geometric shape of gunpowder affect the burning rate?

                      The size and shape of the powder elements are factors that determine the law of gas formation during the combustion of gunpowder. This is common knowledge and there is no secret in it. You have suffered a blizzard about possessing certain knowledge since childhood that you cannot share, since it is “chipboard”. This is first of all. Secondly, this has nothing to do with the article, since it is not about internal ballistics. That is, you are an ordinary network purgomet.
                    3. +3
                      20 November 2023 22: 37
                      Well then answer a simple question. How does the geometric shape of gunpowder affect the burning rate, what does it depend on? Using the most basic examples - spherical, cylindrical, tubular and lamellar.


                      Not only the shape affects, but also the size of the grains, the composition of the gunpowder itself and the shelf life.
                      1. -2
                        21 November 2023 00: 58
                        Well, our Decembrist is a know-it-all, but for some reason he doesn’t even know this. For example, I never said that the burning rate depends not only on the shape, but also what you listed - well, I said the main factor is pressure, the higher it is, the faster the gunpowder burns (but the dependence is not linear, it depends on the composition, humidity, shelf life). presence of phlegmatizers in multicomponent powders
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        composition of the gunpowder itself

                        T.N. gunpowder passport - it lists the composition (if multi-component and their ratio), grain sizes +-%, their shape (if complex, then the characteristic parameters are indicated accordingly), heat release, specific density, burning rate, recommended primer, optimal dimensions of the droplet nest, number of ignition holes and for hunting, recommended attachments for all calibers from 10 to 32 for various shot/shot or bullets and can it be generally used in such and such caliber, incl. Magnum cartridges (12x76 for example).
                        We have always had a lot of mess in our gunpowder, incl. and quality from batch to batch and this is always worth taking into account, for example with the same leopard, sunar, etc. I actually saw hunters who almost rammed a falcon with a hammer belay
  18. +2
    20 November 2023 16: 19
    I didn’t understand this point from the author: “...RWS offered two cartridges for it: one with a 7 mm caliber bullet and one with an 8 mm caliber bullet, both in a sleeve with a diameter of 46 mm...”. Or the author confused the difference between length and diameter...
    1. +5
      20 November 2023 17: 19
      I didn’t understand this point from the author: “...RWS offered two cartridges for it: one with a 7 mm caliber bullet and one with an 8 mm caliber bullet, both in a sleeve with a diameter of 46 mm...”. Or the author confused the difference between length and diameter...

      The author copied the English Wikipedia without really delving into the content.
      1. +5
        20 November 2023 19: 28
        The author copied the English Wikipedia without really delving into the content.

        This is how journalists are today, don’t be surprised. They are now a reaper, a blacksmith and a pipe player.
        They understand everything at once and nothing in particular.
        To the appearance of the hero:
        https://www.pravda.ru/author/shpakovskijj_vjacheslav/
        1. -2
          20 November 2023 21: 57
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          https://www.pravda.ru/author/shpakovskijj_vjacheslav/

          Yes, I published a lot of interesting materials there. “Vovochka” doesn’t make any sense to you from the word at all. "Published in the publishing houses "Eksmo", "Rosmen", AST/Astrel, "Lomonosov", "Polygon", "Prosveshchenie", "Pomatur", "Osprey Publishing". And the reviewers there were the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the Russian Foundation for Basic Research, the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation - specialists that you... will never grow up to. Moreover, even if you understand this, then... nothing will change. As you read my materials here, so will you. But I’m hardly destined to read yours. And one more thing, due to the fact that in Soviet times a lot of people from the plow, narrowly educated, came to all areas of life, a disrespectful attitude towards specialists was formed. This is one of the remnants of the Soviet Union that is being eradicated with difficulty even today. But it will certainly be overcome.
          1. +4
            20 November 2023 22: 48
            Yes, I published a lot of interesting materials there.


            Yeah, especially articles in the newspapers “Young Leninist”, “Propagandist-agitator”, “Penzenskaya Pravda”. lol
            1. -1
              21 November 2023 07: 23
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              Yes, I published a lot of interesting materials there.


              Yeah, especially articles in the newspapers “Young Leninist”, “Propagandist-agitator”, “Penzenskaya Pravda”. lol

              Don't be so contemptuous of the local press. People on the ground also deserve interesting articles. True, my last material was published in the Gubernskaya Gazeta in 2000.
              And the first one was in “Kondolskaya Pravda” in November 1977, you probably weren’t even in the project then. But it’s strange that you are interested in the provincial press. The same website "Pravda.ru" contains more than 300 interesting materials. There is also the E-lab website - this is an electronic library of scientific publications. You can go there too, there are also my materials with links to sources, not a popular presentation...
              1. +1
                21 November 2023 10: 09
                And the first one was in “Kondolskaya Pravda” in November 1977, you probably weren’t even in the project then.


                Of course, I’m not as old as you yet, but in the year mentioned I was already a Komsomol member.
                You are simply older, despite the fact that I am two wars older than you.

                The same website "Pravda.ru" contains more than 300 interesting materials.


                What's interesting? Problems of children's clubs in rural areas?
                1. 0
                  21 November 2023 11: 53
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  What's interesting? Problems of children's clubs in rural areas?

                  Do not judge rashly, says the Gospel and Cardinal Richelieu. It's better to look. But the problems of rural circles, yes, do exist, and they are much more important than the survival of two or three pilots who got into trouble. They can always be replaced by others, but hundreds of thousands of children on our shift cannot be replaced. And if they are properly oriented, they can also become pilots.
                2. 0
                  21 November 2023 12: 28
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  I'm two wars older than you.

                  This is serious, of course. Even horse health may not be enough. And nerves too... And not enough. And this is striking.
        2. +1
          21 November 2023 23: 08
          I read it. A decent biography. A real, good popularizer!! Captures the audience! And yet we closely monitor his opinions on weapons! About the Sturmgewehr - very weak, but forgive me wink
          1. -1
            21 November 2023 23: 15
            Quote: stankow
            Real, good popularizer

            Dangerous word:

            populyarizator

            Do you see? wink
    2. +1
      21 November 2023 23: 01
      Typo, don't judge too harshly! But with “shooting at a line of sight range” - it turned out ugly, disappointing.
  19. +2
    20 November 2023 16: 25
    He noted that firefights rarely occurred at a distance of more than 800 meters, which is about half the range of a straight line visibility cartridge 7,92 × 57 mm standard German Mauser rifle or smaller for the MG08 machine gun

    In this phrase it is not easy to guess what the author meant by the concept of “visibility”.
  20. +2
    20 November 2023 17: 24
    "RWS offered two cartridges for it: one with a 7 mm caliber bullet and one with an 8 mm caliber bullet, both in a 46 mm diameter case."
    The author apparently meant the length of the sleeve.
    1. 0
      20 November 2023 17: 42
      Quote: John22
      sleeve length.

      It is obvious. There was a mistake, however...I wrote it, but the proofreader didn’t see it. Happens.
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. +7
    20 November 2023 21: 24
    after which he signed a contract with the company Heereswaffenamt (HWA)

    I have no words, only letters. The Heereswaffenamt is a government office - the Armaments Directorate of the Army. What "company"?! There were several departments directly in the HWA: for cartridges, grenades, small arms, etc.
    1. -1
      20 November 2023 22: 07
      Quote: bunta
      I have no words, only letters. The Heereswaffenamt is a government office - the Armaments Directorate of the Army. What "company"?! There were several departments directly in the HWA: for cartridges, grenades, small arms, etc.

      Thank you, Andrey! This, in my opinion, is the most valuable remark today among all the other chatter. I am sincerely grateful to you. I will definitely correct it where necessary.
  23. +3
    20 November 2023 23: 53
    Quote from Enceladus
    But I note that with belt feeding it’s the other way around - the edge increases reliability and simplifies feeding...

    I read somewhere that the rim on the cartridge case turned out to be a stumbling block for German designers who were trying to surpass the rate of fire of the ShKAS. At such high speeds, the mechanics skipped the groove, and they did not have a chuck with a flange.
    1. +2
      21 November 2023 01: 06
      Well, yes, the MG (even different modifications) has a frog of a rather complex design, and it migrated to the M-60, but unlike the MG, the M-60 was not successfully copied, which led to frequent delays. But this is from open sources. I shot with PKM, and it seems from a cliff - I don’t remember anymore. So I don’t know how true it is. But from the videos and disassembly it is clear that the feed and tape drive of the M-60 is the same as on MGshki
  24. +2
    21 November 2023 02: 21
    Quote from Enceladus
    For a single-channel, yes, everything is true, but when the outer side is coated with phlegmatizers/nitroguanidine, it becomes progressive. I won’t say rifled in a rifle, but it’s quite used in hunting weapons

    With a multi-channel one there is a sharp drop in pressure when the block is destroyed.
    1. +1
      21 November 2023 03: 52
      Well, I won’t say for artillery - Because I was only involved in rifle shooting.
      in hunting (I carry a smoothbore)... it has its own specifics - the charge (shot, buckshot or bullet) does not have the moment of cutting into the rifling + the wads are shock-absorbing (on plastic containers they make the charge smaller, because they are stiffer than felt ones and you can damage the charge itself) That is. Apart from the inertia of the charge itself, they do not interfere in any way with the expansion of the combustion cavity. In a rifled gun, everything is different; when the bullet hits the rifling, there is a sharp jump in pressure and, accordingly, an even greater burning rate and an avalanche-like increase in pressure. Therefore, in hunting smoothbore gunpowder, the fastest-burning gunpowder is used, but both permanent and degressive ones are used. Our most famous sunars are tubular and leopards are spherical. Falcon, due to the low readability of the plates, has a low specific density) it should only be rubbed to compact it and only lightly pressed with a gasket and therefore, due to lower pressure, it has a lower burning rate.
      1. +1
        26 November 2023 01: 15
        A shot is still a projectile, not a charge.
  25. The comment was deleted.
    1. +2
      21 November 2023 10: 11
      I read the comments to this opus... hmm, the author is also a liberal. how many of them have multiplied!!!


      What, you, what are you, the author is not like that, he wrote articles for the newspaper “Leninskoye Slovo”.

      1. -1
        21 November 2023 12: 21
        And not only Vovochka! I also wrote and defended a dissertation on the history of the CPSU. That's how! It is available on the Internet, and you can also insert examples from it. It will be interesting.
    2. -2
      21 November 2023 12: 22
      Quote: ermak124.0
      how many of them have multiplied

      And there will be even more! And you and your ilk... will die out like dinosaurs!
  26. +1
    21 November 2023 10: 57
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Fedorov developed a less powerful cartridge than 7,62*54

    As it turned out quite recently, the Fedorov cartridge with improved ballistics and a smaller caliber was both larger and more powerful than the three-line cartridge.
    https://www.kalashnikov.ru/vozvrashhenie-iz-nebytiya-v-peterburge-najden-eksperimentalnyj-patron-fyodorova/
  27. +3
    21 November 2023 15: 42
    It is logical to assume that the SVT-40 was what gave the Germans the idea that if the Russians had made a self-loading rifle capable of firing a powerful rifle cartridge even in bursts, then by replacing the cartridge with an intermediate, less powerful one, a more effective machine gun could be made.
  28. +1
    21 November 2023 21: 13
    >StG largely influenced the Soviet AK-47

    General design, perhaps, but nothing more.
    1. +1
      21 November 2023 23: 18
      No, a tactical niche. And a test to see if the problem is solved. Design - nothing in common, at all. AK is a typical Soviet school.
      1. 0
        23 November 2023 07: 59
        Quote: stankow
        tactical niche. And a test to see if the problem is solved.

        How well you said it. Simply brilliant!
        1. +1
          25 November 2023 21: 57
          I hope you're not kidding me! wink
          1. +1
            28 November 2023 08: 04
            Quote: stankow
            I hope you're not kidding me!

            What kind of mockery can there be? If everything is correct.
  29. +1
    21 November 2023 23: 34
    1911-1912 V.G. Fedorov developed the 6.5x57 mm cartridge. It has nothing in common with the Arisaka 6.5x50 mm cartridge except the caliber. Numerous calculations and experiments were carried out for calibers 6, 6.5 and 7 mm. The optimal caliber was 6.5 mm. During development, Vladimir Grigorievich considered 5 variants of casings and bullets, and the casings were initially developed as flangeless ones.
    Felorov began work on a self-loading rifle in 1906, and in 1911 a self-loading rifle in 7.62 mm caliber was submitted for commission tests, which it successfully passed. At the end of 1913, a self-loading option appeared for the 6.5 mm Fedorov cartridge. The First World War prevented further work.
    During WWII, the Russian army was faced with a shortage of light machine guns. and in 1916 Fedorov proposed to remake his self-loading rifles. Rifle parts manufactured for testing were removed from warehouses. And if the rifles in the 7.62 mm caliber were assembled without changing the design, the rifles in the 6.5 mm caliber were modified. The chamber was redesigned for the Arisaka cartridge,
  30. +3
    21 November 2023 23: 38
    Quote: BORMAN82
    Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J.

    Where did Borman get the data from?
    1. +2
      22 November 2023 16: 00
      Fedorov tested a dozen different cartridges, in caliber 6mm, 6,5mm and 7mm, with different amounts of gunpowder. It seems that a more powerful version of the 6.5mm cartridge was used for the rifle, with Vo-850m.s, and a weaker version for the machine gun. This is indirectly indicated by the low loading density of 0 and the Sokol lamellar gunpowder. You can easily cram more than 648g of W type powder into a rifle case of this size, and accordingly get more than 3J at the output.
      1. 0
        23 November 2023 07: 52
        Quote: vetal1942
        Fedorov tested a dozen different cartridges, in caliber 6mm, 6,5mm and 7mm, with different amounts of gunpowder. It seems that a more powerful version of the 6.5mm cartridge was used for the rifle, with Vo-850m.s, and a weaker version for the machine gun. This is indirectly indicated by the low loading density of 0 and the Sokol lamellar gunpowder. You can easily cram more than 648g of W type powder into a rifle case of this size, and accordingly get more than 3J at the output.

        Very interesting Thank you.
    2. 0
      23 November 2023 07: 54
      Quote: Trouble
      Quote: BORMAN82
      Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J.

      Where did Borman get the data from?

      Where did you get it from, Sergey? There are so many sources of information now. It is simply impossible to review everything.
      1. +1
        26 November 2023 10: 02
        Quote: Trouble
        Quote: BORMAN82
        Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J.

        Where did Borman get the data from?


        "Cartridges for small arms. Reference manual" (Kolomiytsev A.V., Sobakar I.S., Nikityuk V.G.,...)
        https://reallib.org/reader?file=770869&pg=36

        Can be easily compared with:



        Muzzle energy 1753-1851 J (Fedorov) and 3513-3713 J (Mosin 57-N-221) 3840-4150 J (Mosin cartridge BS-40), intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 57-N-231S (from AKM) has a muzzle energy 1953-2115 J.
        1. +1
          27 November 2023 10: 43
          Why are you looking at the kinetic energy numbers? You need to look at the internal volume of the sleeve. The 7.62 rifle has 4 cm3, the Fedorov has 3,7 cm3. This is a full-fledged rifle cartridge, filling it with 2,8 grams of old VL gunpowder (model 1907) with a loading density of 0,8, you will shoot under 3000J, especially since the barrel of the machine gun is long. If you take a late tubular VL, with an allowable loading density of up to 0.9, you can cram in 3.1 grams and get a cartridge equal in power to a 7.62 rifle cartridge. You may have to reduce the weight of the bullet so that the pressure does not go off scale, but there would be a desire. So calling the 6,5*57 an intermediate cartridge is only a stretch.
  31. +1
    23 November 2023 18: 00
    Quote: Trouble
    Where did Borman get the data from?

    Do you mean the muzzle energy numbers in the last section "Additional Information" -? So it says there that this is data for Fedorov’s assault rifle, most likely reference, theoretical and calculated. For a rifle without automatic equipment, these figures would naturally be higher.
  32. +3
    24 November 2023 17: 51
    In the WWII museum in Smolensk there is also a Stumgever with a sign explaining like all the exhibits and no one asks about Kalash)))
    1. 0
      24 November 2023 19: 19
      Quote: Quantu
      In the WWII museum in Smolensk there is also a Stumgever with a sign explaining like all the exhibits and no one asks about Kalash

      You didn't read carefully. They asked in 1980-1984. Now
      in Penza they don’t ask either.
  33. +1
    26 November 2023 08: 40
    Quote: Trouble
    Quote: BORMAN82
    Fedorov's original 6.5x57 cartridge provided an 8.5g bullet with a speed of 850m/s. and had a power of 3100J.

    Where did Borman get the data from?


    "Cartridges for small arms. Reference manual" (Kolomiytsev A.V., Sobakar I.S., Nikityuk V.G.,...)
    https://reallib.org/reader?file=770869&pg=36
  34. +2
    28 November 2023 01: 02
    I personally know a weapons collector - a German - who has such a machine gun in his collection. According to his stories (and he understands weapons), Hitler carefully studied this machine gun and did not approve. That’s why they didn’t join the troops en masse.
    In addition, despite some external similarity, the AK47 has nothing in common with it at all - this is confirmed by all experts. They are only similar like the A320 and MC21 aircraft
  35. 0
    29 February 2024 20: 16
    RWS offered two cartridges for it: one with a 7 mm caliber bullet and one with an 8 mm caliber bullet, both in a 46 mm diameter case

    Where can I look at a machine gun casing? xnumx diameter mm?
  36. 0
    3 March 2024 20: 56
    To determine the primacy in the invention of the machine, it is necessary to determine the main feature. We can assume that this is the design of a machine gun cartridge case. This cartridge case was used in cartridges from the Ariana rifle. Therefore, the championship in the invention of the machine gun belongs to the Russian designer Fedorov.