"Cerberus" flew. What's next?

85
"Cerberus" flew. What's next?

So, a new milestone in stories US Air Force passed: The B-21 “Raider” made its first and successful flight. Northrop Grumman and the US Air Force may not have wasted time and money in frightening quantities, but we will not rush to conclusions, although we will allow ourselves a few.

“Cerberus,” which is the name of the first B-21 “Raider,” represents a new stage for the US Air Force and it is clear that they have certain plans for it.



In general, Cerberus is from ancient Greek mythology, a cute three-headed dog, a servant of the ruler of the kingdom of the dead, Hades, who guards the entrance to this kingdom and does not allow the dead into the world of the living and vice versa. The brainchild of Typhon and Echidna, a couple who gave birth to many different mythological entities such as the Chimera, the Lernaean Hydra, the Nemean Lion and other equally effective and charming phenomena.

“Northrop”, “Boeing” and others are not much inferior to mythological heroes in terms of creating something homicidal. So a certain continuity is visible, and therefore there is nothing surprising in such a name for the B-21 “Raider”. Moderately dark, moderately in terms of hints.

The B-21 flew.


Many people saw this, the video was, as expected, circulated, which is also without doubt, but if “Cerberus” had slightly hit the ground, I’m sure they wouldn’t have shown us anything. And so, everyone could without interference enjoy the sight of this unique machine cutting through the air of the test site.

Many people were interested in the long cable and antenna that the B-21 towed behind it during takeoff.


In general, nothing surprising at all, this is a common device for initial flight tests. This "tail cone" is used to record "clean" static air measurements that are not disturbed by the aircraft behind its tail. This sensor is in addition to the aircraft's flight test data acquisition system sensors located on the lower forward left side of the aircraft.

These precision data collection instruments, in addition to the many standard sensors that are installed around the aircraft and the specialized test equipment located inside, are an important addition because they collect a picture of the vortices produced by the aircraft in the air, which in turn provides a source of data for Doppler enemy radars.

So, judging by the photo, work has been in full swing since the first flight of the B-21 Raider.

What can be said in terms of any conclusions regarding the aircraft? The process of development and construction has been going on since 2014, and now, almost ten years after the start, the result has been achieved. Of course, the work did not start from scratch; when working on the B-21, everything possible from the B-2 Spirit was used, and development of this aircraft began back in 1979. That is, by and large, over such a number of years, a simply huge amount of information and tests on aircraft of a similar type has been accumulated.

Of course, the B-21 is very different from the B-2, primarily in the complete absence of a tail unit. What people took as a semblance of plumage and somehow tried to predict its use in flight, in reality turned out to be completely different.
What stuck out on both sides of the fuselage “hump” turned out to be just engine air intakes, and not what was attributed to them.

At the same time, the B-21's conformal air intakes are one of the most famous exotic features of the development program. More precisely, they were one of those hemorrhoids that kept design engineers awake. Stealth air intakes are one of the most important characteristics of a stealth aircraft.

Separating the turbulent air in the boundary layer and getting enough air through the serpentine ducts used to hide the highly reflective surfaces of the engine fans so as not to choke the aircraft engines is a major design challenge.

Photos of the same B-2s show much more prominent serrated air intakes, including a separation plate between the fuselage and the intake port that separates the turbulent boundary layer air from the stable air entering the intake.


Compared to the B-21, the B-2 has much more prominent air intakes with scalloped splitters along the lower edges. They feed serpentine ducts to the engines hidden deep in the B-2's inner wings. Obtaining sufficient air during takeoff and landing is accomplished by butterfly or scoop-like auxiliary inlet hatches that open at the top of the mixed air intakes/nacelles.


The B-21 does the same with relatively large triangular hatch-like intakes that open vertically back from the intake ports. The scheme is similar to V-2. This provides additional air flow for the Cerberus engines, which are still unknown in terms of number and model. This gives the aircraft a distinctive “horned” devilish appearance during ground taxiing, as well as during takeoff and landing.

Regarding the engines, based on the size of the aircraft, it is unlikely that there are less than four of them. The B-21 is not much inferior in size to the B-2, which had 4 F118-GE-100 engines. Considering the specifics of the aircraft, that is, the “flying wing” design with engines hidden inside, it can be assumed that the B-21 will have engines from the F118-GE-100 family, or rather, their development and modernization suggests itself.

The dimensions of the B-21 are still very difficult to estimate; the aircraft was filmed in such a way that it is difficult to tie it to objects on the ground in order to assess the scale. However, they say that the B-2 is slightly larger than the B-21, but not critically.

V-2 has the following parameters:
Wingspan, m: 52,40
Aircraft Length, m: 20,90
The height of the aircraft, m: 5,45
Bearing surface area, m2: 464,50
Normal takeoff weight, kg: 168435

And these are the dimensions of an aircraft capable of covering about 11 km on one refueling, carrying 000 kg of bombs and missiles. With in-flight refueling, the flight range increases to 18 km.

Even if the B-21 is smaller, the tasks assigned to it mean that it simply cannot be much smaller.

We can also make a preliminary conclusion that the operational ceiling of the B-21 will be exactly higher than that of the B-2 (12 m), since “stealth” and “invisibility” are other names for stealth that do not in any way reflect the ability to actually fly stealthily without being detected.


Today, ground-based air defense systems, as the practice of modern conflicts show, represent a very high-precision and effective weapon, capable of hitting both subtle and “invisible” targets. Therefore, no matter how well stealth has been developed, it is not a panacea for detecting an aircraft by various radars.

Although it is clear that it was on camouflage that the engineers worked as sophisticatedly as possible. It is possible that the black areas between the B-21's engine nacelles and the central hump of the fuselage towards the rear of the aircraft are experiments with new types of reflective surface coatings for the aircraft. Perhaps, in our case, this is part of the camouflage of the engines.

Overall, the B-21's profile is remarkably sleek, and its air intake and engine humps are much less noticeable than those of the B-2 when viewed from the side.

The B-21's belly is perhaps the most intriguing part of the aircraft we might see on its first flight.


Its main weapons compartment is clearly visible in the photo and video. It is much smaller than the B-2, but it was known in advance that this would be the case since the aircraft likely had less than half the payload of the B-2. However, this can be compensated for by the use of the latest types of weapons.

The B-21 is unlikely to be able to carry two Massive Ordnance Penetrator (MOP)/GBU-57, which weighs 13 kg. But one such bomb could be carried on the B-600. It's possible that the bay is even too small for the MOP and a new, smaller deep-penetrating weapon will take its place, but that seems less likely at this time.


The bay is likely to be smarter and more easily reconfigurable for different weapons options than its predecessor, using the aircraft's open architecture systems to more easily integrate new weapons, decoys and air-launched unmanned aerial vehicles. This is the essence of the new strategic bomber, designed to form the basis of the power of the US Air Force.

One of the main questions that remains open is whether the B-21 has smaller bays for secondary/defensive weapons. In general, in theory there should be, because a stealth aircraft should still be able to fend off attacks using air-to-air missiles or use Stand-In Attack Weapon (SiAW) to break into areas well protected by air defense forces.

Using up space on the main drum launcher for these weapons seems a bit wasteful, so it would be helpful to have smaller, shallower auxiliary bays to accommodate auxiliary weapons. This appears to be the case in the form of hatches next to the main weapons bay, but it is unclear whether they are for maintenance, including access to the engines, or whether they are intended for weapon storage. The B-2 also has similar panels so it's hard to tell, but the internal compartments next to the main compartment are intriguing.

Added to the possibility of additional weapon compartments on the sides of the main one is the fact that the B-21, although it uses one cargo compartment instead of two, as on the B-2, there are already issues of more efficient placement of ammunition.

A few words about the rear.

Stealth aircraft exhaust is critical to this type of stealth visibility, both in the radio frequency (RF) and infrared (IR) spectrums. It is thanks to them that there is a real possibility of detecting the most well-camouflaged aircraft from radar beams.

In this case, the exhaust pipes are very similar to the B-2 exhaust pipes, although they appear even more conformal, with very deeply recessed engines and smaller dimensions than their predecessors. Here it would really be interesting to know what kind of design the B-21 has, two or four engines. If the Cerberus has four engines, then they should be quite small in size and located close to the axis of the aircraft.

The B-2 could fly quite normally with two engines turned off on one side; accordingly, the B-21 should be able to carry out such a flight.

There is a big difference in appearance between the aircraft: the B-21 has a noticeable flare from the fuselage "hump" at the top of the trailing edge and does not have the variable geometry "beavertail" of its predecessor. This makes sense given that the B-2's operational theory lacked the requirement to penetrate enemy territory at low altitudes, which ultimately led to the aircraft's jagged trailing edge and vertical tail.

And one last thing. What's missing at first glance are the large dual radar arrays seen on the B-2. It is possible that the B-21 will not rely on such large antenna structures, in light of advances in AESA/AFAR technologies. We can assume the use of semi-active antenna systems having smaller dimensions.

On the other hand, conformal antenna support structures (CLAS) can hide large arrays built directly into the B-21 structure. Small conventional AFARs placed around the entire fuselage of the aircraft can provide almost 360-degree visibility. In addition, as technology developments show, these same antennas can be used for both communications and electronic warfare.

Northrop Grumman's much-heralded Multifunctional Electronically Scanned Reconfigurable Integrated Sensors (EMRIS) could form the basis of a broadband, multi-mode array that could provide significant benefits. Northrop Grumman believes that systems built on EMRIS can provide aircraft with a great advantage in the air precisely due to simultaneous scanning, data transmission and, if necessary, electronic warfare.

And here, yes, one step closer to the concept of network-centric warfare, so beloved by the American military. It would seem natural for the B-21 to be built with some ability to control and target other aircraft via data sent to the B-21 via secure networks.

Naturally, some systems and avionics can be added later as other B-21s are built, and more than a dozen of them have already been laid down. Further modernization development of the B-21 is a completely normal path that hundreds of types of aircraft in the world have gone through, and why this cannot happen with the B-21 is a rhetorical question.
Naturally, testing a new aircraft is just a field of searching for answers to questions, and the further appearance of the future aircraft depends on what answers are found during the test program.

In any case, the first step has already been taken, it makes sense to monitor how the overall picture will unfold, because the B-21 is a weapon that is mainly directed against us. It is clear and understandable what to hide. Therefore, it makes sense to watch.

And it would be very nice to know how things are going with PAK DA. If, of course, they are moving forward. This is also a project for an aircraft of the future; it would be nice if these two futures, ours and the American one, developed in parallel, and not with one lagging behind the other.
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  1. +11
    14 November 2023 03: 48
    Cerberus has flown. What about PAK DA?
    1. KCA
      -10
      14 November 2023 06: 20
      If our Ministry of Defense is ready to pay $2 billion for a plane, it will fly tomorrow
      1. +8
        14 November 2023 08: 53
        Confidence is good but arrogance is a crime. Il 112 and Il 114 are proof of this Ascho and Yak 242 don’t forget the Su75
      2. +7
        14 November 2023 20: 18
        Quote: KCA
        If our Ministry of Defense is ready to pay $2 billion for a plane, it will fly tomorrow
        This statement might have made sense in 1995, but now money alone cannot solve the issue, everything is too neglected.
        1. 0
          15 November 2023 15: 13
          The B-21 will for a long time be the most advanced bomber in the world and we have nothing against it and our leadership not only does nothing, it obviously does not realize the threat.
          Meanwhile, to counter the B-21 and cruise missiles, AWACS aircraft and Su-57 fighters are needed in large quantities, tanker aircraft are needed, and infrastructure is needed. And all this requires money.
          1. -1
            16 November 2023 07: 44
            Quote: ramzay21
            The B-21 will for a long time be the most advanced bomber in the world and we have nothing against it

            Why isn't there anything? We have over-the-horizon radars (I won’t look up the names), but they were all created recently with the search for stealth aircraft in mind! soldier the latest air defense systems also take into account the destruction of stealth targets, and such targets in the form of Storm Shadow air defense systems are hit in the northwestern air defense zone angry
            The problem with the B21 may be precisely in its means of defense; it can quite possibly fend off attacks against itself (by interference, evasion and stupidly fight off with V-V missiles, including missiles), in addition, they will interact with the F35, as a command post and act as a single mechanism + Valkyrie UAV, and difficulties may arise in breaking through such protection feel perhaps there should be interaction between powerful electronic warfare systems, which will have to cover the attack of, for example, missile defense systems or fighters what We also seem to have electronic warfare, but we need to work on integrating both air defense (and this seems to be done) and fighters (and here is the problem) into battle formations.
      3. +4
        15 November 2023 15: 06
        If our Ministry of Defense is ready to pay $2 billion for a plane, it will fly tomorrow

        To make such an aircraft, our country already needs decades of hard work and trillions of dollars spent on science, education and technology development. The Americans won’t sell such a plane even for 10 billion, they are not as stupid as our leaders.
    2. -20
      14 November 2023 07: 38
      Everything goes according to plan. What's the point of busting your ass and having a race? This is in the USA, the main thing is to quickly steal money from the budget and more, but there it doesn’t matter that no one needs this crap and there are already weapons in bulk.
      1. +4
        14 November 2023 07: 54
        The independence of the country requires organizing such races
        1. KCA
          -10
          14 November 2023 10: 38
          Our race is developing in a different way, we have strategic missile carriers with missiles with a range from 2500 to 5000 kilometers, and the Americans are sharpening the B-61-13, 61 is a year of development, a free-falling bomb, who will let the B-21 reach the release range? Well, let’s say a few have broken through, but what’s the point if our entire triad starts? It will launch as soon as the B-21s enter the drop zone, the B-21 can also use missiles, according to statements, but there are no missiles for it yet
          1. +4
            14 November 2023 17: 42
            The B-21's chassis is under much less load than the B-2's, and one gets the impression that it is about a quarter smaller in size.
            (this is my personal opinion, I took the size of the landing gear wheel as a point of reference, assuming that it is the same for both aircraft, I may be wrong)
            1. 0
              7 February 2024 16: 25
              B-21 is noticeably smaller than B-2
            2. 0
              4 March 2024 12: 47
              If we take the wheel size of the front strut, then vice versa. And if the size of the cabin, then 21 is one and a half times larger
        2. -1
          15 November 2023 21: 59
          Is there something threatening the independence of the United States? Why do they invest such funds? Moreover, these funds are borrowed.
      2. 0
        14 November 2023 22: 32
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        Everything goes according to plan. What's the point of busting your ass and having a race? This is in the USA, the main thing is to quickly steal money from the budget and more, but there it doesn’t matter that no one needs this crap and there are already weapons in bulk.


        Old internet meme (couple):
        "Don't be afraid, everything is going according to plan
        Well, just a plan a little Beeeeee!"...
    3. +8
      14 November 2023 16: 21
      The horse didn't lie down! Too big plans, and “meager” funding. They want AT THE SAME TIME a Su-57, a new transport aircraft, a new bomber, a new modification of the A-50, Tu-160, and a bunch of civil aircraft of different sizes. The president also spoke about super-sounding civilian ones. And they also want Su-75, etc. request
      1. +1
        15 November 2023 00: 49
        Yes, if you look at the funding, then a third of the funds from enterprises, and most of the rest from the series “make a death star for 10 million dollars”
  2. +10
    14 November 2023 03: 49
    What can I say, well done...
    Replacement of B-2 and B-1.
  3. +11
    14 November 2023 04: 27
    Extremely interesting information that evokes extremely contradictory emotions.

    On the one hand, the air component of the nuclear triad is the most vulnerable and most difficult to use. An airplane requires time to prepare for takeoff, time to reach the area where missiles are launched or bombs are dropped, etc. During this time, ground-based ICBMs and SSBNs will have time to fire 10 times. Airfields can be put out of action, an aircraft, even an inconspicuous one, is easier to shoot down than an ICBM, etc....

    On the other hand, our overseas partners are anything but fools. If they light this star, it means they need it. This means there is a concept and goals for this aircraft. If it turns out cheaper than the B-2, it will be a great achievement. And despite all the disadvantages of the aircraft as a carrier of weapons of mass destruction, this is another headache for us and even, probably first of all, for our comrades from the PRC.

    And on the third hand, what is more in this project, goals and objectives or the famous American drink of dough, this is also another question :)

    In any case, for them, a flying aircraft, even a prototype (they will provide a series, for some reason there is no doubt), is good for them and hemorrhoids for us and the Chinese. We need to think about how to counteract.
    1. +13
      14 November 2023 05: 50
      Quote: Anton Temnukhin
      On the one hand, the air component of the nuclear triad is the most vulnerable and most difficult to use.

      On the other hand, this is the only element of the nuclear triad that can be effectively used in a conventional war and maintain “tone” in the development of aircraft.
      1. -10
        14 November 2023 07: 36
        And Iskanders, what cannot be used in a conventional war?
        1. +5
          14 November 2023 08: 31
          Quote from Vrotkompot
          And Iskanders, what cannot be used in a conventional war?

          They are not part of the nuclear triad. Tactical nukes, not strategic ones
        2. +1
          14 November 2023 22: 33
          Quote from Vrotkompot
          And Iskanders, what cannot be used in a conventional war?

          There is no nuclear warhead for Iskander.
          And it wasn't planned...
          1. +1
            15 November 2023 00: 52
            What do you mean it doesn't exist? It was precisely these Iskanders who relocated to Butska
    2. +3
      15 November 2023 21: 07
      On the one hand, the air component of the nuclear triad is the most vulnerable and most difficult to use. An airplane requires time to prepare for takeoff, time to reach the area where missiles are launched or bombs are dropped, etc. During this time, ground-based ICBMs and SSBNs will have time to fire 10 times. Airfields can be put out of action, an aircraft, even an inconspicuous one, is easier to shoot down than an ICBM, etc....

      It is our aviation component of the nuclear triad that is vulnerable, because geostrategists and reindeer herders keep all strategic aviation at one airfield in Engels, where even Ukrainian UAVs flew from crap and sticks. So one warhead is enough for our entire strategic aviation.
      But the Americans are fine with this, and in addition to several airfields in the United States itself, there are also airfields in Europe and Turkey, Qatar and Japan, and there is also the Diego Garcia Atoll in the middle of the Indian Ocean, there is Guam and much more. If all our warheads that are left after Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin reduced their number, then they will not have strategic aviation either, but we will also run out of warheads.
    3. 0
      16 November 2023 17: 56
      In my opinion, they are not making a strategist No. Of course, he will be capable of using nuclear weapons. But it seems to me that this is something like an air command post with an arsenal that increases the capabilities of tactical aviation. Those. It is more intended for a conventional war, tying together all their stealth systems (F35, Valkyrie) giving them additional capabilities, quite possibly even replacing AWACS (for conventional AWACS, with the increase in the capabilities of missiles that already fly 400 km, and are already talking about hypersonic missiles and the spread stealth aircraft somehow look like outdated technology).
  4. -7
    14 November 2023 05: 17
    The mattress pads set the pace. Without further ado, our TU-160 45k is taken on board. For now you can safely wait for the PAK.
    1. +1
      14 November 2023 06: 48
      Quote: Oleg Apushkin
      our TU-160 45k are taken on board. Bye can wait quietly PACK.

      So we have few of them.
    2. +6
      14 November 2023 08: 06
      Quote: Oleg Apushkin
      Without further ado, our TU-160 45k is taken on board

      Yeah, believe Vicki and the rest of the yellow press. And if you want the real load with which it can be loaded, count the mass of the 12 heaviest versions of the missile launcher. Here's the real load for you. If anything, here's a fact that undermines one point for most turbo-patriots: the much lighter B-1B can carry a load of 60 tons. Fact))) But he will never carry it either, because for real tasks this is not necessary.
      1. -6
        14 November 2023 08: 32
        Quote: JD1979
        If anything, here's a fact that undermines one point for most turbo-patriots: the much lighter B-1B can carry a load of 60 tons. Fact))) But he will never carry it either, because for real tasks this is not necessary.

        Yeah, and why did they bother, the external suspension was designed... 24 tons on top, this is on an external suspension! And with this load there is no range, no speed, no contour following. The Tu-160 carries its honest 45 tons with all parameters preserved...
      2. +2
        14 November 2023 13: 15
        Quote: JD1979
        And if you want the real load with which it can be loaded, count the mass of the 12 heaviest versions of the missile launcher. Here's the real load for you.

        In reality, after certain modifications, up to 90 FAB-500M-54 bombs are placed in two cargo compartments.

        Quote: JD1979
        If anything, here's a fact that undermines one point for most turbo-patriots: the much lighter B-1B can carry a load of 60 tons. Fact)))

        The fact is that this load will be three 3000 gallon tanks in the cargo bays and six 950 gallon tanks on the external sling. The result will be a little more than 50 tons.
    3. +7
      14 November 2023 16: 54
      Quote: Oleg Apushkin
      The mattress pads set the pace. Without further ado, our TU-160 45k is taken on board. For now you can safely wait for the PAK.

      From history. Once a powerful maritime power, Great Britain, after the conclusion of the Washington Agreements, did not build battleships for more than 10 years; there were fears that the builders would “forget how” to build heavy ships. And then they started building, there were problems. So they didn’t disperse it, they destroyed enterprises, not “ optimized the design bureau - made other vessels.
      And in our country, the last aircraft of this class was made 40 years ago. Those specialists and enterprises are no longer there. And there are no longer any cooperations on a national scale. To make such an “aggregate” is not to tear a hair out of Khattabych’s beard. what hi
      1. -7
        15 November 2023 00: 56
        Such problems are completely solvable. To do this, you need to promise the specialists a salary of 200-300 thousand, people will immediately rush to study all sorts of different sciences, someone will decide to return from retirement, someone will finally quit their office job and return to their dream job. And for 40 thousand a month for an employee - what a salary - such a job.
        1. -1
          15 November 2023 21: 29
          Such problems are completely solvable. To do this, you need to promise the specialists a salary of 200-300 thousand, people will immediately rush to study all sorts of different sciences, someone will decide to return from retirement, someone will finally quit their office job and return to their dream job.

          You apparently don’t understand what aircraft manufacturing is in general and what it means to produce such a complex aircraft as a strategic bomber. The specialists who assembled the most important components at aircraft factories were 40 years old and above; they worked in their areas for 10-15 years; they were taught by other specialists and they taught young people. This was 33 years ago. Many specialists have died or retired, but something hangs on them, the 70-year-olds still working. Young people are not fooled by empty slogans and promises and are acquiring a more reliable profession than aircraft manufacturing. It won’t be long before these last specialists leave and there will be no one to teach the youth, and then that’s it. Actually, even if they start doing everything right now, in order to prepare a competent specialist, he needs to work for 10 years next to the specialist, learn from experience and be able to understand the complexities of even one unit. But how long can a 70-year-old man who has been starving and living in stress for the last 30 years, even in the training and mentoring mode, work?

          In fact, now only Americans are capable of producing modern bombers. The Chinese are learning, but they still have a long way to go. We have many technologies even from the 70s for the Tu-160 that are barely being restored, but we will not be able to do something even at the B-2 level, we do not have the competence in many of the technologies that our dead science should have been creating for the last 30 years.
      2. 0
        15 November 2023 22: 03
        Even the Italians and French did not forget how to build them (or rather, on the contrary, they learned) to build them, although there was a longer break and a lower start. But this objection is purely to your example; in principle, I agree.
    4. -1
      14 November 2023 20: 25
      Quote: Oleg Apushkin
      Without further ado, our TU-160 45k is taken on board. For now you can safely wait for the PAK.
      It’s impossible: there are few of them, they are old and they are outdated (yes, even new ones: the hull there needs to be made more resistant to overloads and supersonics, made lighter (there were reserves), automatic low-altitude breakthrough made, redesigned for an integrated center section and the equipment for variable wing geometry removed, made controlled air intakes, attach self-defense means like the presidential plane, add space for long- and medium-range air-to-air missiles, and I’m not writing about avionics, electronic warfare, radar, etc.).
      1. PPD
        0
        14 November 2023 21: 47
        add space for long- and medium-range air-to-air missiles, and I’m not writing about avionics, electronic warfare, radar, etc.).
        , as well as space for a couple of tanks, a helicopter is a must, and there’s a refrigerator, a bar, a swimming pool and a couple of tennis courts.
        You can also load a pillbox with hedgehogs.
        Oh, yes, you just have to install an armored belt...
        Well, just in case... wink
        1. 0
          15 November 2023 03: 30
          Quote: PPD
          You can also load a pillbox with hedgehogs.

          This is perversion, carrying the cat is enough!
        2. 0
          15 November 2023 07: 15
          Quote: PPD
          , as well as space for a couple of tanks, a helicopter is a must, and there’s a refrigerator, a bar, a swimming pool and a couple of tennis courts.
          Which of the above seemed unnecessary to you?
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. +3
    14 November 2023 06: 30
    Obviously... the development of means of attack leads to the development of means of defense or vice versa.
    The confrontation is eternal.
    At this point in time, means of attack, especially of such an ultimatum nature as vigorous arguments, are so much ahead of everything and everyone that all other arguments against them seem... weak.
    The fact that our main opponent develops other various “arguments” and does not stop there is obvious and should spur the development of similar “arguments” among everyone else... who can participate in such a “competition”!!! soldier
  7. +1
    14 November 2023 06: 43
    . It would be nice if these two futures, ours and the American one, developed in parallel, and not with one lagging behind the other.

    Yes, even with a lag it would be positive. If only it really moved.
  8. -6
    14 November 2023 07: 33
    "Cerberus" flew. What's next?

    Then there are two options:
    1. Start wringing your hands and shouting: “Everything is lost! The client is leaving! The plaster is being removed!” (another option is possible) throw all means at the goal: Catch up and overtake America...
    2, Guided by the truth that Russian air defense systems (interceptor aircraft, ground systems) are still capable of detecting the “invisible adversary”, and satellites located in geostationary orbit and all sorts of “Voronezh” from the family of Russian stationary long-range over-the-horizon radar stations will allow you to determine takeoffs and locations at a decent distance for making a decision, calmly continue work on the modernized Tu-160m2, the performance characteristics of which (without ESR) are SIMPLY HIGHER, calmly, analyzing the successes and shortcomings of the Americans and continuing work on the PAK DA. Because we don’t need good, we need perfect.
    1. -10
      14 November 2023 08: 32
      In the event of a nuclear war, the satellites will be immediately shot down, and the station's radar stations will be subject to massive strikes by cruise missiles. The United States has hundreds of sea-to-space missiles on ships and thousands of tomahawks.
      1. +2
        14 November 2023 17: 44
        In the event of a nuclear war, the satellites will be immediately shot down,

        How can you IMMEDIATELY KILL a satellite on a geostationary station?

        The United States has hundreds of sea-to-space missiles on ships and thousands of tomahawks.

        Where should you put a ship in order to reach it with a tomahawk, for example the Don-2?
    2. +3
      14 November 2023 10: 23
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Guided by the truth that Russian air defense systems (interceptor aircraft, ground systems) are still capable of detecting the “invisible adversary”

      Of course they are capable, any radar will definitely detect any stealth, the question is the range. And the big question is whether the number of S-300s and others that we can afford economically will be able to close our skies for them. IMHO, no, simply following the obvious logic that the Americans would not persistently spend countless billions (for 50 years already!!!) on converting all combat aircraft to stealth, realizing (in 50 years it was already possible to figure it out) that stealth in fact, it kind of doesn't work.
      Quote: ROSS 42
      and satellites located in geostationary orbit and all sorts of “Voronezh” from the family of Russian long-range stationary over-horizon radar stations will make it possible to determine takeoffs and locations at a decent distance for making a decision

      We do not have radar satellites. Voronezh - suprahorizontal Radar. Even the radar station near Murmansk, which stands on a 400-meter mountain, has a ridiculous radio horizon of 100 km. Obviously, Voronezh-type stations are unsuitable for air defense tasks. There is one over-the-horizon radar container. Which in theory is suitable for air defense tasks. And it’s even possible, as the developers optimistically state, that they really see stealth in Europe. But the problem is that this station does not fundamentally distinguish the type of aircraft. And 2500 large aircraft are hovering in the skies of Europe at one time. And the station tracks only 500 targets. But the Container monitors not only Europe, but also Asia. Those. You need to track 4000-5000 targets. And she is not even close to capable of this! Yes, you can carry out selection, reject planes flying not towards our borders, and all that, but when you evaluate only one tenth of the targets, this method does not guarantee anything, now the target is not flying towards us, we eliminate it from tracking, and then it turns to us, but we don’t even know. And in general, what will we do when a hundred Raiders take over the highway instead of hundreds of civilian Boeings flying in our direction? How will having a wonderful Container help us?
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Start wringing your hands and shouting: “Everything is lost! The client is leaving! The plaster is being removed!”... throw all the resources towards the goal: Catch up and overtake America...

      If we are counting on real confrontation, this is exactly what we need to do, and not soar in blissful fantasies.
      1. +1
        14 November 2023 14: 41
        Quote: Passing by
        If we are counting on real confrontation, this is exactly what we need to do, and not soar in blissful fantasies.

        And I’m still tormented by doubts whether people are writing these messages as adults...
        What are you going to do? Strategic bombers like B-21? Ford-class aircraft carriers? Will you go do it yourself or invite guys from Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan?
        Are you ready to take off your last pants in the name of replenishing the budget of the Moscow Region?
        You probably consider yourself a smart know-it-all...Then learn to read sentences written in Russian...
        I'm so sick of this group of sirvilist orientation...
        Bow below!
        1. -1
          15 November 2023 13: 37
          Quote: ROSS 42
          What are you going to do?

          I personally don't care. I have a very specific occupation, which has nothing to do with defense and government of the country.
          What do I propose to do hypothetically? Clear your brains, and finally accept the obvious - stealth changes everything, so you need to treat it not as an idiotic whim of stupid amers, and implement it according to the residual principle, as in the Su-57, but clearly prioritize - stealth first, electronics first, like AFAR, network-centrism, then everything else, such as speed, super-maneuverability, overload.
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Are you ready to take off your last pants in the name of replenishing the budget of the Moscow Region?

          There is no need to attribute someone else's things to me. My position is that it is enough to spend money correctly. Those. with high efficiency. To do this, you need to understand what is really needed and important, what will really work, and what is money thrown away. How many were sent downwind - Angara, Armata, pr.677, Il-112, CR929, Mi-38, Mi-28, Abakan theme. This is just a rough idea.
          Quote: ROSS 42
          You probably consider yourself a smart know-it-all...

          I just gave my opinion, supported by numbers. Hoping to hear a reasoned answer. To get one micro step closer to that same know-it-all. But the trouble is, my opponents simply have no arguments, only meaningless arguments about my wretched personality. I don’t give a damn, it’s just a shame that my Knowledge is not increasing.
      2. +2
        14 November 2023 14: 46
        We do not have radar satellites. Voronezh - over-the-horizon radar. Even that radar station near Murmansk, which stands on a 400-meter mountain, has a ridiculous radio horizon of 100 km


        Well, you are quite an expert.
        But there is no Voronezh near Murmansk, it is just under construction.
        And there is no mountain 400 meters away at most. At 100 meters it would have to be built on the Lovozero tundra.
        1. +1
          15 November 2023 13: 15
          Quote: bk316
          But there is no Voronezh near Murmansk, it is just under construction.

          I don’t understand your complaint, is the point of my post about something already working? I was talking about a very specific thing - Voronezh, no matter how you raise it above the horizon, is very limited by the radio horizon, and I was not too lazy and even counted with my hands how much this horizon is. By the way, the number of planes in the sky is also not taken from thin air.
          Quote: bk316
          And there is no mountain 400 meters away at most 100.

          https://rg.ru/2017/07/20/rls-pod-murmanskom-prikroet-arktiku-ot-raketnyh-atak.html
          Who to believe, you or the general designer?
          Quote: bk316
          Well, you are quite an expert.

          I don’t make any special claims, I’m just interested in how it really is, that’s why I write posts, so that my Knowledge can be trusted by more knowledgeable people. And guess what? Once again I heard another, empty Opinion.
          1. +1
            16 November 2023 13: 27
            Who to believe, you or the general designer?

            You can't trust anyone, you can trust me (C) laughing
            You don’t have to believe me, in this case it’s enough to THINK.
            Prompt.
            When they say “the height of a mountain” in the context of “there is a radar station on it,” from what should this height be measured to determine the radio horizon? (correct answer depends on the height of the surrounding area)
            And what does the article say: radar and mountain? (correct answer, but there’s nothing about the mountain, it’s about the height of the radar above sea level)
            That's the same thing. belay
            Do you know what annoys me?
            People, having picked up something from a big trash heap (the Internet) and not understanding anything about basic issues, begin to write false statements, and even try to defend them.
            It is time.

            Yes, I was there (quite recently) and saw with my own eyes both the mountain and the construction site itself. In general, I try to write only about what I know or have seen myself.
            This two.

            To test your knowledge, you need to read textbooks, and after them special literature, because it is impossible to identify knowledgeable people on forums. By the way, on the topic, try to find information on the pattern “how does the radio horizon differ from line of sight.”
            These are three.

            In general, radiophysics is not a simple thing. In order to calculate the real detection range of a particular target for a particular radar, you must at least complete the RTF (like my wife), and attract a specialist who graduated from military and military engineering (like me) wassat
    3. -1
      15 November 2023 22: 16
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Guided by the truth that Russian air defense systems (interceptor aircraft, ground-based systems) are still capable of detecting the “invisible adversary”, and satellites located in geostationary orbit and all sorts of “Voronezh” from the family of Russian stationary long-range over-the-horizon radar stations will make it possible to determine takeoffs and locations


      Air defense systems performed well against the not-so-new French Scalpe missiles (which are also stealth to a certain extent). It was so good that they themselves suffered, not to mention the objects they were covering. The low-flying "Scalp" S-400 can be seen from 18 km. I don’t know when he will see the B-21, but there is no particular optimism. Now the B-21 is a first strike weapon. Our “holes” in air defense are well known to our dear friends; slipping through there will not be difficult.
  9. -14
    14 November 2023 07: 37
    The prospect is excellent: make a billion bucks on each toy, drive them into a hangar and keep them there, otherwise, God forbid, they will fall outside US territory.
  10. +8
    14 November 2023 08: 34
    Where did the author see the tail unit on the B-2? Since when did controls become considered the tail?
    1. +3
      14 November 2023 09: 33
      According to the classics, the tail unit includes both horizontal surfaces (stabilizers) and vertical ones (keel - one or more). But the author claims specifically about the vertical tail on the B-2! It is not clear where he found it...
  11. BAI
    -4
    14 November 2023 08: 53
    experiments with new types of reflective coatings on aircraft surfaces.

    Are these coatings also washed off by rain?
  12. 0
    14 November 2023 09: 31
    Quote: article
    "Cerberus" flew. What's next?

    As usual, testing is carried out until confirmation of the design capabilities is recognized, it is put into serial production, transferred to the troops and mastered by flight personnel, and possible combat use.
    What's next?
    And then the accumulation and analysis of operational information, the search for directions and methods of modernization, and the re-equipment of combat units.
    But further ...
    Accumulation of moral and physical obsolescence of the structure, repair and extension of service life, analysis of the project in terms of the feasibility of further operation (to a large extent its financial side) and, in the absence of such prospects...
    Gradual decommissioning of existing aircraft, conservation or disposal, and maybe sale to “partners”, use of experience in development, production and operation to build a project of the future “B-No. next”, which will also someday “fly” (or conscious refusal from this in favor of something more promising).
    And is there any doubt that +/- this will be the case?
    Quote: article
    And it would be very nice to know how things are going with PAK DA. If, of course, they are moving forward. This is also a project for an aircraft of the future; it would be nice if these two futures, ours and the American one, developed in parallel, and not with one lagging behind the other.

    Well, of course, out of inertia we will want the same one and “Mom, buy it!”, knowing deep down that in response we will receive “we have one like this at home.” After all, in order to buy such toys it is not enough to rob yourself, you need to rob... well, probably also about half the world.
  13. -4
    14 November 2023 10: 01
    And it would be very nice to know how things are going with PAK DA. If, of course, they are moving forward. This is also a project for an aircraft of the future; it would be nice if these two futures, ours and the American one, developed in parallel, and not with one lagging behind the other.


    Why the hell is it needed if modern air defense systems see these targets perfectly. There is no absolute invisibility in the radar range from the word in general.
    If anyone doesn’t understand, the only purpose of developing these machines is to drag us into such a race.
    But if for the United States such fun is at the level of pocket spending, then we will have to drain the entire military budget.
    And what's in the exhaust? An airplane with crippled aerodynamics, but still visible in the radar range.
    So isn’t it better to really act asymmetrically, to continue to improve long-range detection radars and air defense systems, thereby turning American crafts into unnecessary trash. Well, and expand the reconnaissance satellite constellation for constant tracking, including the location of the strategists.
    1. +6
      14 November 2023 10: 50
      This topic has been discussed for many years, and there is still no understanding of the meaning of stealth. The point is not to be invisible, but to reduce your detection range significantly. This allows, firstly, to win air battles with a crushing score, having completed half the battle of gaining air superiority, and secondly, to penetrate through what was previously considered a continuous air defense system, to use cheap weapons to the limit of detection of specific air defense systems. Which, firstly, allows you to bomb with impunity with cheap gliding bombs even behind the LBS, and not engage in useless plowing of fields with NURS in the front line, and secondly, at the systemic, arithmetic-economic level, overload and destroy absolutely any air defense. Thus, gaining final air supremacy. Which will actually determine the outcome of the war.
      1. -9
        14 November 2023 11: 18
        This topic has been discussed for many years, and there is still no understanding of the meaning of stealth. The point is not to be invisible, but to reduce your detection range significantly. This allows, firstly, to win air battles with a crushing score, having completed half the battle of gaining air superiority, and secondly, to penetrate through what was previously considered a continuous air defense system, to use cheap weapons to the limit of detection of specific air defense systems. Which, firstly, allows you to bomb with impunity with cheap gliding bombs even behind the LBS, and not engage in useless plowing of fields with NURS in the front line, and secondly, at the systemic, arithmetic-economic level, overload and destroy absolutely any air defense. Thus, gaining final air supremacy. Which will actually determine the outcome of the war.


        So it won’t even be possible to reduce the detection range. Except for outdated UHF radars, which were once very popular.
        In addition, the aircraft cannot but have an impact on the environment. Namely, direction finding is very good based on atmospheric disturbances.
        Besides, the strategist is not a needle in the hay. And with the comprehensive use of means of detecting his invisibility, there is no use.
        1. +6
          14 November 2023 13: 22
          And with the integrated use of means of detecting its invisibility

          You use, as they say, a “spherical horse in a vacuum”, ideal radars, people, systems, etc.
          But the reality is SVO. Where, according to the stories of the Su 34 pilots, Migi29 flew next to them (in one of the combat missions) and the fact that these aircraft were Ukrainian became clear only the next day. There was confusion and no AWACS detected them in the turmoil. hi
          1. -2
            14 November 2023 19: 35
            You use, as they say, a “spherical horse in a vacuum”, ideal radars, people, systems, etc.


            You just don't understand what we're talking about.
        2. +2
          14 November 2023 13: 34
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          So it won’t even be possible to reduce the detection range. Except for outdated UHF radars, which were once very popular.

          Everything is exactly the opposite.
          UHF radars, for example the S-400's long-range radar, or the Protivnik-GE, see stealth much better than short-wave radars. And for meter range radars, stealth or non-stealth doesn’t matter at all.
          Short-wave, millimeter and centimeter radars, fighter radars, missile seekers, most air defense radars, see stealth very poorly. Those. If previously a massive air defense system covered a radius of approximately 100 km, now it is approximately 20 km. Those. to ensure the same saturation we need not even five, but twenty-five times more funds! And this is a disaster for air defense, because stealth increases the cost of an aircraft by roughly two times, and air defense by roughly twenty-five! In fact, it's even worse, more on that below.
          The problem is that now to provide cover from stealth over large areas, you need a very complex distributed system, i.e. powerful, bulky, expensive decimeter and meter radars, expensive long-range missiles with active seekers, Mig-31 air defense interceptors, command posts of various levels. There cannot be a lot of all this, because it is very expensive, and it is all extremely vulnerable, because it does not have duplication due to the very cosmic price of each of the components. I disabled one radar, and the entire defended area fell down like a house of cards, jammed communications, the same thing, bad weather at the airfield, and we have problems.
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          Namely, direction finding is very good based on atmospheric disturbances

          This is the first time I’ve heard of it, can you be more specific with the names of the developments?
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          And with the comprehensive use of means of detecting his invisibility, there is no use.

          In the real world, there is no all-seeing, no matter what they say in Murzilkas and televisions. At least until this issue is handed over to AI. For example, consider what was happening around the Crimean Bridge. Or how our strategists, completely unexpectedly for the British, flew off their coast
        3. +3
          14 November 2023 13: 45
          for outdated UHF radars that were once very popular

          The basic structure of the system 40P6 (S-400)
          30K6E controls included[37][39]:
          The combat control point (PBU) 55K6E based on the Ural-5323 01.
          Radar complex (RLK) 91Н6E[37] Panoramic radar with interference protection. Mounted on MZKT-7930. Operates in the UHF range.
          1. +1
            14 November 2023 19: 40

            Everything is exactly the opposite.
            UHF radars, for example the S-400's long-range radar, or the Protivnik-GE, see stealth much better than short-wave radars. And for meter range radars, stealth or non-stealth doesn’t matter at all.
            Short-wave, millimeter and centimeter radars, fighter radars, missile seekers, most air defense radars, see stealth very poorly.


            Did I say somewhere that meters don’t see well? I'm talking about outdated decimeter radars, not modern ones.
            For meter radars, whether stealth or not, everything is the same. The condensed air in front of the plane is even enough for them. Meters see all atmospheric disturbances. Anyone who was on duty at the hydraulic fracturing site, or sat in front of the indicators for other reasons, knows.
    2. +5
      14 November 2023 19: 59
      “modern air defense systems see these targets perfectly.” ///
      ----
      They see perfectly - so you can launch missiles from 30 kilometers away.
      If there are 70 km between ground radars, the R-21 will fly undetected.
      1. +1
        14 November 2023 20: 34
        Quote: voyaka uh
        They see perfectly - so you can launch missiles from 30 kilometers away.
        The fact is that meter range radars do not see all the tricky geometry of stealth: their wavelength is too long. For them, this is just a bast shoe (yes, the coating against the meter range radar will be too thick to fly with it). The problem is that a meter-long radar can guide a fighter, but not a missile. The stealth missile must be active, with radio command guidance. Using radio command guidance, we launch the missile to an area 20 km from the “invisible” one, and there the warhead will capture the target, no matter how invisible the stealth is: the power of the reflected signal grows in proportion to the 4th power of the distance, reduce the distance by 3.2 times - the signal will increase 100 times.
        1. 0
          15 November 2023 09: 26
          The fact is that meter range radars do not see all the tricky geometry of stealth: their wavelength is too long.

          Not meter, but decameter, with a wavelength of more than 10 meters, that is, more than the main structural elements of the aircraft - wings and so on.
          Meter (and even more so decameter) radars are not used for guidance; as a rule, these are two-dimensional general detection radars.
          1. 0
            15 November 2023 21: 48
            Quote from solar
            Meter (and even more so decameter) radars are not used for guidance; as a rule, these are two-dimensional general detection radars.
            So that's what I write about. An active seeker can be aimed when the missile is nearby, but it is quite possible to bring it into the invisible area detected using a long-wave radar. An additional plus is that stealth systems do not use electronic warfare.
    3. +2
      14 November 2023 20: 25
      The aerodynamics of the “flying wing” are not at all disfigured. Aircraft have been built according to this scheme almost from the very beginning of aviation. The main problem has always been in the handling and control of tailless aircraft. Now this problem can be easily solved with the help of electronic control. The advantage is a “clean”, aerodynamically efficient wing (and this also saves fuel), which can accommodate a lot of different things. The downside is probably maneuverability (the thick wing is not for high angles of attack).
      By the way, the same aircraft of the Su-27 family are also not controlled by the pilot “directly”, without electronics - this is impossible for them.
  14. 0
    14 November 2023 10: 58
    Our unparalleled PAK DA will be better, stronger, more powerful and cheaper!
    1. +3
      14 November 2023 18: 48
      I think that this is sarcasm, because it has no analogues and a number of other statements already characterize our leadership as having no analogues.
  15. +7
    14 November 2023 11: 43
    Quote: RussianPatriot
    Our unparalleled PAK DA will be better, stronger, more powerful and cheaper!

    You forgot to add "and non-existent" laughing
  16. +2
    14 November 2023 17: 01
    Quote: AC130 Ganship
    Cerberus has flown.

    A few years ago, when everyone was “waiting” for PAK YES, and the Americans had just started their B-21, they “wanted” that the USA would do it faster, and we were all waiting. And so it happened! crying
    1. 0
      14 November 2023 18: 34
      I wonder how over-the-horizon radars of the “Container” type will see it
    2. -4
      14 November 2023 21: 11
      They haven’t had 20 years of democracy and LADIES with Taburetkin.
      1. -1
        15 November 2023 22: 27
        They've had 30 years of "there will be no more big wars", "the army must now fight international terrorism, cybercrime and natural disasters", "old white men have been generals for too long", "equipment that can't be transported by a C-130 is obsolete" and other crap that we, thank the Lord, missed due to poverty and backwardness. And LADIES with Taburetkin are the best things that ever happened to the ARRF. Without them, we would still be preparing for another Chechen war. There is only one bad thing that can be said about Serdyukov’s reforms: they are stuck (through the efforts of a woodcarver) in the middle.
  17. +4
    14 November 2023 19: 13
    Hmmm... before the articles were illiterate, but at least there was something to read in the comments. Not a single sensible comment right now...
  18. +1
    14 November 2023 20: 14
    Of course, the B-21 is very different from the B-2, primarily in the complete absence of a tail unit.
    So, where is the tail unit on the B-2?
  19. 0
    14 November 2023 21: 10
    The chassis is reinforced compared to the B-2 - is it the load or the ability to operate on unpaved airfields?
  20. +1
    14 November 2023 22: 50
    Costs 2 engines.
    Most likely the base was Pratt-Whitney 1900
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. 0
    15 November 2023 10: 46
    Skomorokhov’s article, as always, is half made up of nonsense.
    The B-2 DOES NOT have tail controls. This type of letable is popularly called tailless.
    Another third part of the article is alarmist and aspirated. They'll set up a thousand pieces and we'll be screwed, we have polymers ----, well, you know.
    1. How many B-2 units are in service with the United States? How many are combat ready? Why don't they do it anymore?
    2. How many fu-22 units are in service? How many are combat ready? Why don't they make them anymore?
    3. What is the main disadvantage of Fu 35?
    The author should get answers to these questions and then the understanding will come that the United States has a modern strategist in minimal quantities with insignificant combat readiness, a Modern heavy fighter - similarly. The cost of creating and manufacturing aircraft is equal to the cost of a piece of gold equal in weight.
    4. Underestimating the enemy is bad, but there is no need to panic. This aircraft will be put into production without any doubt. They'll make 20 pieces and that's it. Why? Because they still can’t finish Fu 35.
  23. -1
    15 November 2023 22: 33
    Quote: Saboteur
    2. How many fu-22 units are in service? How many are combat ready? Why don't they make them anymore?


    They came at a bad time. “Having accelerated, he flew into the open door.” Russia became a friend, let its air force rot on open airfields, and an annual flight time of 20 hours was considered normal. China happily sewed sneakers and flew MiG-21 clones. Under these conditions, it is strange that the F-22 went into production at all.
    1. 0
      16 November 2023 09: 47
      And now why don’t they do it? Or have you forgotten about the scandals with the oxygen system? With PNK system?, coating, etc., etc.
  24. 0
    18 November 2023 14: 42
    with new types of reflective coatings on aircraft surfaces
    ... maybe absorbing after all?
  25. 0
    7 February 2024 13: 35
    I want to repeat the Author:
    “And it would be very nice to know how things are going with PAK DA. If, of course, they are moving forward.?????”
    The Americans were unpleasantly surprised. They even command respect for their Designer....