Il-96-400M: premature joy

В the news The first flight of the first model of the Il-96-400M has already been vigorously celebrated, one could read and watch many joyful statements on this topic, they say, we can wipe out the whole world (meaning, as I understand it, “Boeing” and “Airbus”) and everything like that.

However, everything is not as rosy as it seems at first glance.

Yes, a prototype is not a production aircraft yet, but nevertheless, if it takes off and everything goes well, that’s good. But what does this information say? Exclusively about the presence of ONE prototype. And to rejoice at the appearance of hundreds of Il-96-400Ms in the skies of Russia, to put it mildly, is a little early. For very specific reasons, which we will now discuss.

While Rostec is openly celebrating the victory, Chemezov declares that the Russian aviation industry has everything it needs to create and build wide-body long-haul airliners. Wonderful. Moreover, the head of Rostec is confident that the creation of such aircraft will ensure the technological sovereignty of the country, no more, no less.

Well, it's hard to argue here. Indeed, the technology to create such aircraft exists. They have been around since the times of the USSR, when the Ilyushin Design Bureau created the Il-86, on the basis of which the Il-96 was created, then the Il-96-300 and now the Il-96-400M.

So the base was laid 50 years ago, and thank God it has not gone away, otherwise, it is clear that there would be no trace of any IL-96s. You can, of course, talk about breakthroughs and victories, but in fact, the Il-96-400M is just a modified Il-96-300, which has been flying since 1988.

Breakthrough? Something doesn't look very similar

It is clear that in 30 years the aircraft industry has moved forward, so much work has been done to modernize the Il-96-300 into the Il-96-400. Replacing almost all avionics of the 20th century with modern ones, which made it possible to abandon the navigator, as in really modern aircraft, updating life support systems, and so on.

But what is our main headache? Okay, we’ll talk about the main thing a little later, but about the engines now.

Engines that can provide the “new” aircraft with the maximum range declared by Rostec at 8 kilometers... exist! But this, unfortunately, is still the same PS-100A. Which also comes from the same 90s of the last century.

PS-90A is the engine of Il-96-300, Il-96-400, Tu-204, Tu-214. Development began in 1979, bench tests - in 1983, flight tests on the wing of the Il-76 - in 1987, the first flight of the Il-96-300, equipped with four pre-production samples of this engine, took place in 1988, and the certificate was received in 1992. Very an age-old engine that advanced our aviation very well in the 90s, but today - alas.

True, there are also such phenomena as PS-90A-2. An interesting modification. The PS-90A2 used technologies obtained as a result of joint work with Pratt & Whitney, as a result of which restrictions were imposed on the export of the engine by the US State Department and the contract for the supply of new Tu-204SM aircraft to Iran was disrupted.

PS-90A-3. Let's just say it's an import-substituted version of PS-90A-2, certified in 2011. The power is still the same 16 kgf, but it can fly not only over Russia.

As a result, we still have the same “unfashionable” four-engine design, which seems to be not as economical as the huge engines of modern twin-engine aircraft.

But it has been tested by time and (more importantly from the point of view of some VASO employees) by years of operation. Considering that the “base”, that is, the Il-86 flew who knows how many kilometers with hundreds of aircraft with one single flight accident that claimed the lives of 14 people. Another 4 accidents were completely not the fault of the aircraft, two were due to the fault of the crew, one was due to the fault of terrorists who exploded a bomb in the cabin, and one was when a Boeing crashed on an Il-86 while parked in Delhi.

But even Chemezov believes that with the PS-90A, the Il-96-400M has no chance of becoming an effective aircraft for the commercial air transportation market. Efficiency was not a distinctive feature of Soviet aircraft engines, this is a fact.

Of course, the situation could be corrected by the PD-35. But alas, the engine, which has been in development since 2016, has no special chance of appearing on the market before 2030.

It should be noted that our development specialists were very keen on the project of the Russian-Chinese wide-body aircraft CR-929. Time was wasted from 2014 to 2022, spent on participating in the joint project, but in fact China continued to develop a line of passenger airliners on its own.

The presence of the Il-96-400 in light of the collapse of the CR-929 idea is in itself a good solution. This machine will be able to operate both on domestic lines and on international routes, carrying up to 400 passengers or cargo over a stated 8 kilometers.

And “Ila” even has a certain modernization resource. Some experts believe that abandoning the mechanical control system and switching to a digital one will significantly lighten the design and reduce fuel consumption, for which the IL-96 was so criticized. But, on the other hand, a mechanical system is the highest reliability, a system that will ensure flight even if all electronics completely fail.

In the Special Flight Detachment “Russia” this quality is highly valued.

So the IL-96 has room to move. Here we can recall the experiment when a modification of the Il-96 with engines from Pratt and Whitney was certified in the USA. And how then the figures from Boeing, having realized the prospects of this aircraft in the American transportation market, began to sink the Ilyushin together. And as a result, the project was cut down at the root, our plane lost its American engines.

Theoretically, the Il-96-400M is not only needed, in a situation where the MS-21 and the Sukhoi Superjet, to put it mildly, do not live up to the expectations placed on them, everything is sad in the long-distance transport sector.

In general, the Il-96 can become the desired lifesaver (if a structure weighing 270 tons can be called that) for Russian air carriers. The plane is actually domestic, and everything that they managed to cram into it from imported avionics is being replaced, albeit with certain difficulties. That is, the output will be a continuation of the IL-86 line, but at a modern level. Perhaps just as reliable and unpretentious. Well, the IL-86 was also in complete order with comfort. And if the Il-96 SLO “Russia” flies all over the world, it means that the navigation and safety systems are in full compliance with all international requirements.

But from Chemezov’s words it follows that the Il-96-400M should not be expected to appear on passenger airlines. The aircraft, according to the head of Rostec, will be produced to order for the needs of the same SLO Rossiya or as a transport aircraft for cargo transportation.

That is, at present the IL-96-400M has no potential customers.

The only completed copy will be used as a test model for now, and while the tests are ongoing, the fate of the aircraft will be decided.

The Il-96 has one big drawback dating back to Soviet times: its fuel consumption, which can make all plans to use the aircraft completely pointless from a purely economic point of view.

But there are two more things that can play a significant role in the fate of the aircraft

The first is the main problem of reducing the cost of air transportation, which consists not only of the price of fuel and the amount of fuel consumption, but also of how quickly spare parts and maintenance kits will be produced, how quickly aircraft maintenance and repair teams can work, and so on. That is, all the ground bustle.

There is a nuance here that is clear to almost everyone: the more an airplane flies without capital investments in it, the more profit it makes. The more such aircraft enter production, the lower the cost of their production. This means that aircraft need to be mass-produced.

And here lies the second problem. Where and who will ensure serial production of the IL-96?

Of course, the Voronezh Aircraft Manufacturing Association (VASO) seems to be emerging. It was there that the IL-86 was assembled, everything should be there: production areas, warehouses, personnel.

Alas, if the production space has not yet been sold out, then the staffing situation is completely sad. Years without orders under an openly fattening management had taken their toll - tired of the fantastic salaries of 16-18 thousand rubles, people began to run away. And today at VASO there is a huge problem with personnel, and it will only get worse, because people who assemble the most complex mechanisms, which undoubtedly are airplanes, should not beg. And this is the only way to describe what is happening at the enterprise.

No, senior management is doing great. You know, so to speak, first-hand, what salaries are there and how, gentlemen, effective managers entertain themselves with these salaries. But below... However, judge for yourself. Here is a link to the VASO website, section “Vacancies”.
Vacancies VASO

Just scroll from top to bottom and see for yourself that the average salary is 30 thousand. Don’t be fooled by this “From 25 thousand”, 25 is also “From 500”. A design engineer earning 25 is not funny. This is tragic.

Ask yourself in your heart, how do you want to work as a design engineer? And here are literally a couple of vacancies from another world. Just like in advertising - feel the difference.

So the Il-96-400M most likely will not be in such quantities that we can feel it. Alas, VASO is simply not able to ensure any production of aircraft.

By the way, which one is capable? These are just numbers...

The enterprise has a certain backlog in terms of experience in working on such equipment: they assembled the Il-96-300, Il-96-400T, and assembled the Il-96-400M. These are different machines, differing significantly both in shape and size, and in layout. So the plant doesn’t particularly consider the Il-96-400M to be such a new and innovative aircraft. Although, of course, a decent amount of work was done and no one questions its volume and importance.

Avionics is half the battle; we had to create a passenger cabin from scratch, and these are not just rows of seats and luggage racks, this is a life support system for 400 passengers, each of whom on board must receive their own 27,5 liters of breathable air. In a minute.

Business class cabinа

Economy class

So yes, Russia can still make very good airplanes. For now he can. But here the question arises not of modernity or uniqueness, but of quantity. The chart above shows how many aircraft VASO has produced in recent years. And to say that, as in Soviet times, with the wave of a wand, the production of 6-10 aircraft per year will suddenly begin - this means lying.

It will be just great if VASO can manage the production of TWO Il-96-400M aircraft per year. What does this mean for our aviation? Everyone understands that it’s nothing. But while a Yandex courier earns several times more than a design engineer, you shouldn’t dream of anything more. Even if tomorrow an order for, say, 20 cars for the same Aeroflot falls down from the Government (note, which has “ditched” workers more than once by not fulfilling its promises), no one will rush to the machines. People simply will not return to the workshops that they left during the years of inactivity for the sake of “astronomical” salaries.

But there are publications and experts who believe that two planes a year is a lot. And God grant that VASO will be able to produce at least one aircraft a year.

But I don’t think it’s even worth deciphering what one plane a year is.

Yes, it’s very good that the Il-96-400M took off and flew, not like the Il-112V. It flew normally, without incidents. But that's only half the story. And how to get out of this situation, how to establish serial production of equipment that is so necessary for domestic companies, is not yet entirely clear.

It is only clear that after some time it will be simply dangerous for Boeings and Airbuses, left without proper repairs from the manufacturer, to take to the skies. And here it seems that there is something to replace them with, but how to implement this in practice is a question to which the head of Rostec does not yet have an exact answer.

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

There is such a concept - the locomotive of the economy, and the Il-96-400 should become such a locomotive, at least for the large civil aircraft industry in Russia. I like it so much, I’m so happy!

[Aerodrome]

Something about everything here is “optimistic” everywhere, and the auto industry, and aviation, and space... we are simply “rushing” into a bright future, “breakthrough” after “breakthrough”.

Yuri Borisov: the satellite industry in Russia is uncompetitive
In the USA they can produce 3 thousand satellites per year, in China - up to 1,5 thousand, and in Russia - 40, Borisov explained. Russia should switch to conveyor production of spacecraft, he believes

Read more at RBC:
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/27/10/2023/653bab0b9a7947b643fb1909

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Aerodrome

Something about everything here is “optimistic” everywhere, and the auto industry, and aviation, and space... we are simply “rushing” into a bright future, “breakthrough” after “breakthrough”.

I am an atheist, but I also believe that despondency is a mortal sin!

[Civil]

30 years have passed... a lot has been lost, and the oligarchs fly on business jets.

[ramzay21]

The author described the situation well. I’ll just add that at such enterprises there were people who connected their entire lives with the aircraft industry, working dynasties worked and the mechanism of transfer of experience worked, when young specialists came after college and they were trained and supervised by 40-year-old specialists and professionals of pre-retirement age, they were trusted the simplest work, and as they acquired knowledge and experience, they were entrusted with more and more complex components and the whole mechanism worked like a clock, allowing them to produce 10-12 Il-86 aircraft per year. 33 years have passed, those who were then 50-60 years old are now over 80 or have died, those who were 40 are already over 70, and it is on them, who are still alive and who have not yet been expelled and who have not died of hunger, that the production of these aircraft is maintained . They will leave and that's it...
Is there anything that can be done? With the current leadership of the country and the oligarchic system, no. Who will do it? Chemezov with his gang of embezzlers and a high roof? It's not real.

In order for our aviation industry to move somewhere, we need firm and constant orders for aircraft, and for this we need a large state airline like Aeroflot in the USSR, this airline needs to buy jet fuel not at the market price but at cost, then air tickets even for the Il-96- 400M will become available to most residents of our country. We need a long-term plan for the creation of new aircraft, which needs to be financed, we need personnel who not only need to be paid well, but they need to be trained and given guarantees that they will not be thrown out with a kick in the ass by the next owners of factories like Chemezov or Deripaska.

Therefore, we need complete de-oligarchization of the country and nationalization of the most important industries and largest enterprises, which the current government, which guards the interests of the oligarchy, will never do. And since this will not happen, there won’t be many fools who will agree to go study the most complex specialties and work until the sanctions are lifted and then end up on the street with a profession that no one needs; those who could pass on their experience will soon leave completely and only the Chemezovs and a gang that will eventually tear apart VASO and sell the plot for development, which will be the end of VASO.

[Bad_gr]

Alas, if the production space has not yet been sold out, then the staffing situation is completely sad. Years without orders under an openly fattening management had taken their toll - tired of the fantastic salaries of 16-18 thousand rubles, people began to run away.........

And then, from the high stands, through the mouth of the same Nabiullina, they declare a shortage of workers, with the conclusion that we don’t have enough emigrants (those are satisfied with such a salary)

[Vasily I]

It's not that simple, unfortunately.
Changing the form of ownership from “private” (I wonder whose VASO is now ? answer: - formally private, in practice - State).
State property in today's realities differs only in that an official uses various manipulations to ensure his material well-being, but does not bear any risks (unlike the same private owner).
In the aviation industry, project production with cycles lasting from 10-15 years or more. And the contract with a typical executive director is signed for 1,5 years. Yes, he easily waves up any, the most delusional, super-unprofitable agreement and makes it with his pen, collecting all the possible goodies...
Are you sure THIS is the way out?
To begin with, how can the Ministry of INDUSTRY AND TRADE organize and carry out a long-term project in which payback will not occur before 25-40 years? Yes, it will all remain without premiums and bonuses. They also have performance indicators FROM PROFIT.
If officials’ goal setting excludes the development of the country, but requires immediate returns expressed in money, then they will continue to bury the legacy of the USSR, selling it off cheap...
If the same executive director on shore were given a condition: he signed the contract - fulfill it! and until you do it, you won’t go anywhere! The work of a director would become completely unpopular and, perhaps, it would finally be taken up by people who understand at least something about the business they are leading.
ALL of our managers in the age category from 30 to 45 years were raised in the belief that you can manage any enterprise and a deep understanding of production processes is not required, it is important to understand the principles of MANAGEMENT.
Remember, under Yeltsin there was a program for training managers?
Our people came to the UK under this program. And so, industry specialists (Roscosmos, Sredmash, etc.) began to read a management course using the example of McDonald's, despite the fact that the nature of the processes is fundamentally different...
And all this nonsense we have is spelled out in the current regulatory documentation.
So don't look for easy solutions. There is none of them.

[ramzay21]

To begin with, how can the Ministry of INDUSTRY AND TRADE organize and carry out a long-term project in which payback will not occur before 25-40 years? Yes, it will all remain without premiums and bonuses. They also have performance indicators FROM PROFIT.

Just so you know, Boeing and Airbus not only cannot make a profit, they are unprofitable and their claims against each other with facts of government subsidies directly indicate this. But the leadership of the USA and the EU, unlike Yeltsin and Putin, has the intelligence to finance the aviation industry at the expense of the state; they understand that the production of thousands of aircraft per year creates a colossal number of high-paying jobs and the multiplier effect is such that tax revenues more than cover the costs of subsidies.
The Chinese understand this, which is why they began to produce their own aircraft, and although their analogue MS-21 is much worse than the Soviet Tu-204, especially in terms of safety, they go for it, realizing that their aircraft will probably never make a profit, but will provide colossal jobs a multiplier effect and will ultimately bring profit and make countries dependent on which China will eventually begin to push its aircraft. They will also come to our country, but later, when organized crime groups under Putin’s roof will kill our aviation industry, just as they killed the remnants of the Soviet automobile industry.

In the aviation industry, project production with cycles lasting from 10-15 years or more. And the contract with a typical executive director is signed for 1,5 years. Yes, he easily waves up any, the most delusional, super-unprofitable agreement and makes it with his pen, collecting all the possible goodies...
Are you sure THIS is the way out?

As practice has shown, private owners in the aviation industry in our country are worse than the state. So oligarch Deripaska received the Samara aircraft plant as a result of criminal machinations, so what? Do you think he invested money in the development and production of a new aircraft? No. He went to beg from the state so that it would develop everything at its own expense and place a large order from now his plant, and without being responsible for anything and without investing in anything, he would receive a good income, regardless of sales.
The problem of our country is that our country is developing in all respects and will not be able to develop according to the rules of the market controlled by developed countries. This is simply a fact stated by Lenin, and therefore Lenin and Stalin created a different economy with state ownership at its core. Yes, this model has many shortcomings, but if we add small and medium-sized businesses to it, it would work out well. China has realized this and is therefore showing significant growth.

[Vasily I]

The Samara plant has an interesting story. Of course, the new owner did not acquire the plant in order to groom and cherish it))) But production, in the sense of assembling the An-140, was mastered there. And then all the forces of the KLA were thrown into strangling the out-of-control shop...
I did not mean that private property for long-cycle production is better than state property. For us it’s the same thing, essentially. For the majority, the Law stipulates that the State will participate in at least a blocking or controlling stake.
But pseudo-private property allows the management of these enterprises to avoid responsibility for everything except outright theft.

[AAK]

As for the “unfashionable” 4-engine design, there is the same relatively “fresh” double-deck Airbus A-380 (565 passengers in the 3-class version and more than 800 passengers in the economy version, when flying at a maximum range of 15 km) - so there is room for growth and something to strive for... Well, as for wet dreams of “decapitalization” and knocking out the teeth of the “beastly grin of capitalism”, too many since the late 000s have been drowning “for capitalism and the free market” . "...

[Negro]

Quote: AAK

As for the “unfashionable” 4-engine design, that is the same relatively “fresh” double-deck Airbus A-380

The analogues of the Il-96 are the younger modifications of the A340 (340-200, 340-300). Who were better in everything, and much better. Which stopped being produced 15 years ago.

From the very beginning, the IL-96 was a strange aircraft, some kind of grandfather from the times of the Boeing 707 against the backdrop of already outgoing trijets and the beginning of a new era of large 2-engine aircraft. (the revolutionary A300 has been flying since the early 70s, the 767 since the early 80s, there were 777 years left before the 5). The very idea of ​​putting engines from a conventional 737 on a long-haul aircraft and getting a unified line on a single engine looked like it had a right to exist (A340), but it turned out to be obviously wrong.

[ramzay21]

From the very beginning, the IL-96 was a strange aircraft, some kind of grandfather from the times of the Boeing 707 against the backdrop of already outgoing trijets and the beginning of a new era of large 2-engine aircraft.

The Il-96 was an analogue of the A-340; the Il-96-300 actually flew earlier. The problem with the Il-96-300 was the engines, as in all other Soviet aircraft, but they were not at all as inferior to imported ones as the anti-Soviet Russophobes sing, and this problem was solved, among other things, by installing imported engines and avionics, which immediately made the resulting Il- 96M to level A-340. Realizing this, Boeing and Airbus, through our corrupt leaders Yeltsin and Putin, destroyed this project and carried out a campaign to discredit the products of our aviation industry.
The PS-90A engine was also modernized and the resulting engines were already approaching their foreign classmates, which made it possible to equip the Il-96 with our engines. This is exactly what the creator of the IL-96, Genrikh Novozhilov, tried to do, but the country’s leadership received good money from Boeing and ended everything.
The Il-96 and Tu-204 were of course inferior to Boeing and Airbus, but we had our own planes, and they needed to be produced and operated, but instead we began to feed other people’s workers, and Putin and those whom he appointed led us to complete dependence on these manufacturers having everything to prevent this from happening.

There was a small company in the Far East that operated the Tu-204 in the 2000s and made a profit and also gave money to the city. Then our managers squeezed out this company and the efficient ones came with Boeing and immediately began asking for compensation due to unprofitability.

[Negro]

Quote: ramzay21

which immediately brought the resulting Il-96M to the level of the A-340. Having realized this, Boeing and Airbus, through our corrupt leaders Yeltsin and Putin, destroyed this project

And you know, they split so much when they were pushing this project together with Yeltsin and Putin, that immediately after that they strangled their own 4-engine aircraft. A340 in 2013, A380 in 2021, 747 in 2022. And this is even despite the fact that the 747 used developments on the S-5, has an opening muzzle in the cargo version, and in this it is unique among large civil aircraft: the 777F tank will of course lift, but try to put it in there, and then pull it out.

[ramzay21]

Having a domestic aircraft that is slightly inferior to the world’s best analogues but feeding millions of its engineers and workers, having an independent air service system throughout our huge country and having something to supply to countries that disagree with countries that have monopolistic positions in aircraft technology is much better than being an African country that buys the latest achievements with oil foreign aviation industry, which may not supply them and return the country to the age of the cart and horse, because in our country there is no longer an automobile industry.

[ramzay21]

Having well-established production of the Il-96-400M, it is possible to develop a new aircraft to replace it, using developments on the MS-21 for two PD-35 engines (by the way, it is not clear why we need a PD-35 without an aircraft?). If we don’t start normal production at VASO Il-96-400M right now, and do everything Putin’s way, then our country will lose the ability to build such aircraft in the foreseeable future. But of course the scammers will be shown models and told about the next crazy projects that have no analogues in the world, which will be built in the distant 2040-2050s and maybe in 2100.

[Negro]

Quote: ramzay21

because in our country there is no longer an automobile industry

To this, the airlines will answer you that they have a huge business that millions of people need, and for some reason this business must kill itself against the wall to make it more convenient for some plant that is a hundred times smaller than Aeroflot and produces Soviet garbage that is outdated in 10 years before his first flight.

Already noted here in the thread. The Russian plane will not pass certification, and if you hung Western engines and Western electronics on the Il (I note that the damned West was quite ready to do this, just as it gives components to Brazilian, Japanese, even Chinese aircraft), then getting up from its knees would kill it similar.

[Beringovsky]

Quote: Negro

To this, the airlines will answer you that they have a huge business that millions of people need, and for some reason this business must kill itself against the wall to make it more convenient for some factory...

Well, Western airlines are also much more efficient than Aeroflot, so you can hint that a violinist is not needed either... or let them shut up and do what the country needs. After all, who are they?

[Glagol1]

VASO never produced 10-12 IL-86 units per year. 6-8 yes, but don't make this up.

[ramzay21]

VASO never produced 10-12 IL-86 units per year. 6-8 yes, but don't make things up

You either don’t know or you’re blatantly lying, which is basically the same thing. Already in 1982, 11 aircraft were built under the numbers 86012, 86013, 86014, 86015, 86016, 86017, 86018, 86050, 86051, 86052, 86053.
The following year, 1984, 12 aircraft were produced: 86054, 86055, 86056, 86057, 86058, 86059, 86060, 86061, 86062, 86063, 86064 and 86065.

[Glagol1]

Of course, I didn’t even think of lying, I rather wrote it incorrectly. Over 18 years of serial production, 106 aircraft were made. This is an average of 6 boards per year. But there were also more prosperous years. VASO was fine in Soviet times, but now it’s very difficult. You can't do more than 2 a year.

[ramzay21]

Of course, I didn’t even think of lying, I rather wrote it incorrectly. Over 18 years of serial production, 106 aircraft were made. This is an average of 6 boards per year.

The first production IL-86 rolled out in September 1979 and went into trial operation, and already in 1980 7 vehicles were built. In 1990, 11 aircraft were produced and already in 1991 only 3; the last aircraft with the number 86145 left VASO in 1991 and since 1992 the Il-86 has not been produced. It turns out that the IL-86 was produced not for 18 years, but only 12 of which the first three years were mastering production and one year of collapse and chaos.

[m4rtin.frost]

In the end they will bankrupt the plant and sell the site for housing development!

[ramzay21]

According to this scheme, Putin’s officials, under his roof, divided the Saratov aircraft plant, ZIL, AZLK and thousands of other enterprises, research institutes and design bureaus.

[abc_alex]

It was not Putin's, but Luzhkov's that brought the Moscow car factories to a complete standstill. Back in the 10s, it was necessary to move production from Moscow to the Moscow region. But would Meadow really give anything to anyone? He pulled under himself everything that was not nailed to the floor, and what was nailed, he tore it off and pulled. Kalita is new... Already in the 10s it was clear that Moscow was not suitable for large-scale industrial production. When the factories were built, they were built on vacant lots around Moscow, surrounded by bare fields and sparse villages. And at the turn of the century they found themselves almost in the center of a city with a population of 15 million people. What kind of factory is it? There, sometimes it takes 4 hours to drive from the center to the Moscow Ring Road in traffic jams.
The same fate befell not only automobiles. Moscow metallurgical enterprises were also demolished. For example, the same "Hammer and Sickle". There is already a residential area there. And for the same reason. What kind of metallurgy can there be in the city center? He, too, had to be removed from the capital at the turn of the century. As soon as it became clear that real estate in Moscow was galloping up in price, it was withdrawn. I’ll forestall your question: “What about in the USSR?” And here it is: in 1989, the population of Moscow was 6,8 million people, and in 2023 it is 13,1 million. And this is official. Taking into account unregistered and temporary residents, visitors and visitors, there will be all 15. This is a terrible dynamics for 33 years, 9 million people plus. To understand, during this time a country such as the Czech Republic moved entirely to Moscow. Not completely, but just 0,9.
And for this “0,9 Czech Republic” it was necessary to build housing.

I repeat, as soon as the dynamics of Moscow’s population growth became clear, it was necessary to begin the withdrawal of production from the capital. Then there was a chance to save these enterprises. But no. The Moscow City Hall bit the bullet. As a result, the enterprises simply died.

[ramzay21]

It was not Putin's, but Luzhkov's that brought the Moscow car factories to a complete standstill.

And who has been leading the country for 23 years, Luzhkov or Putin? Who created the conditions under which you can make money in the country only in Moscow, Luzhkov or Putin and Yeltsin?
What are these 15 million people doing in Moscow if all the largest enterprises are closed, like design bureaus and research institutes, and who led to this, Luzhkov or Putin?
Who allowed the bureaucratic apparatus to grow exponentially in 23 years, Luzhkov or Putin, in the context of the transition to digital management technologies?
And what does Luzhkov have to do with it if Sobyanin has been the mayor of Moscow since 2010 and it was he who announced the demolition of ZiL in 2013?

[Repellent]

Quote: ramzay21

all the largest enterprises are closed, as are design bureaus and research institutes, and who led to this, Luzhkov or Putin?

Man, Gorbachev led to this. If you weren't born in 90, this is kind of obvious.

Quote: ramzay21

in the context of the transition to digital management technologies, the bureaucratic apparatus has grown significantly over 23 years, Luzhkov or Putin?

Prove it with numbers. For now, I see a photo from a fence (like Zen), nothing more.

I love agitators and propagandists. Dumb as felt boots, but delicious

[Beringovsky]

Quote: Repellent

Man, Gorbachev led to this. If you weren't born in the 90s, this is kind of obvious

It’s complete nonsense, they came to this precisely under Putin. Previously, there were three girls with wooden bills and no problems, now three floors are crammed, there are computers everywhere and a lot of office equipment, but they can’t solve a simple problem for six months. Previously there was a small book with payments for housing and communal services, now there is a pile of paper. Work for work's sake! In fact, Putin’s bureaucratic and administrative system is monstrously ineffective, stupid and slow in everything. Besides plundering budget funds into your pockets, of course, but this is sacred!

Quote: Repellent

I love agitators and propagandists. Dumb as felt boots, but delicious

I love Zaputinians. Dull as felt boots, but delicious...

[ramzay21]

It’s complete nonsense, they came to this precisely under Putin.

It's true. At the time Putin came to power in 1999, the Soviet giants ZiL, AZLK, and a bunch of design bureaus were working in Moscow, including Tupolev Design Bureau, Ilyushin Design Bureau, and Yakovlev Design Bureau. And now there is none of this.
But there is Sobyanin’s Moscow mayor’s office, which no longer fits in the building it occupied and therefore part of the mayor’s office moved to the building which was previously occupied by the entire CMEA. No one can clearly explain what they are doing and why they should expand further in the context of digitalization. But more money is already spent on maintaining the central apparatus of governing the country than on medicine.

[hagen]

Quote: ramzay21

Therefore, we need complete de-oligarchization of the country and nationalization of the most important industries and largest enterprises, which the current government, which guards the interests of the oligarchy, will never do.

Well, yes. We are all for everything good against everything bad.... Streamlined newspaper stamps without a particular bright thought. Nationalization is needed, you say? Well, here it is - "....JSC VASO is controlled by the state through JSC MAK Ilyushin (30% of shares) and JSC AK named after S.V. Ilyushin (27,1% of shares). Private shareholders owns 42,9% of the shares...." And what do you want to nationalize there? Another thing is that the enterprise is unprofitable, and has been for a long time. What kind of salary do you want there? Check out Aviastar from Ulyanovsk. Aviastar JV is also state owned. But the complex works and makes a profit. And the salaries of workers there are different. Above... I do not undertake to discuss why VASO does not work. Obviously, there are many different components of success. Therefore, to identify the reasons for the failure of the Voronezh enterprise, it is necessary to conduct an in-depth investigation. Not within the framework of VO, in a different format. I'm sure it was done. But the results of such investigations are usually not public. So we can only watch with hope.

[core]

Red directors were not much different from modern ones. It’s really funny for me to read about engineers’ salaries, if the company doesn’t produce or sell anything, where do the salaries come from!?
an engineer's salary in the USSR is generally the talk of the town. where did hardworking machine operators with higher education come from!? These were engineers who went to work as milling machine turners; the latter’s salaries were three times higher.
you made some kind of groan here, ah ah, how good it was in the USSR, it was still the same, they only paid real specialists, and the engineers were like candy wrappers from a fool. and now they pay specialists, and if they don’t pay, then the enterprises or firms will not last long, and this does not depend on the form of ownership.

[Mikhail3]

Quote: ramzay21

In order for our aviation industry to move somewhere, we need firm and constant orders for aircraft,

Alas, this will do nothing. “Salaries”, or rather the salaries of VASO top management will generally go into space, that’s all. At the same time, workers at the factories themselves will begin to receive not 35 thousand but 36 thousand, and design engineers will not receive 30 thousand but 31 thousand. No orders and no benefits for kerosene will shift the current position of the industry even a millimeter. That's not the point at all...

[Sevastiec]

Therefore, we need complete de-oligarchization of the country and nationalization of the most important industries and largest enterprises, which the current government, which guards the interests of the oligarchy, will never do.

Yes, we no longer have any oligarchy in the country. Our main problem is that we have “neither fish nor fowl”, not communism, not capitalism, not oligarchy, but who knows what, and a bow on the side.

In the USA, for example, there is quite an oligarchy and nothing, they build airplanes and roads.

The article once again confirms that the creation of almost everything should be done by private business, and the state, in industries critical for the country, should only provide orders and control. Why is it that in many of our factories there is a situation where the management is fattening, but the workers are not getting paid? Yes, because the state dates them. In a private company, this is impossible by definition: no profit, no salary for anyone. An entrepreneur cannot afford to lose staff, since he does not have an uncle behind him who pays him a salary. And the head of a state-owned enterprise is easy. The main thing is to write reports to the top correctly.

[AC130 Gunship]

If airlines buy kerosene at cost, then from what money will they pay the driver’s salary, pay for the depreciation of the truck, etc., etc.? The USSR economy collapsed precisely because no one counted the money. And Moscow told Vologda how many pairs of felt boots to ship to them. Central planning doesn't work. A recent example is Venezuela, where annual inflation is 1000 percent.

[ramzay21]

I am an atheist, but I also believe that despondency is a mortal sin!

These are realities and not despondency. But not everyone has the courage to face the truth.

[dmi.pris1]

What does despondency have to do with it? There are facts. And passengers who will have to pay more for increased kerosene consumption will be despondent. Or are there philanthropists at Aeroflot?

[core]

We don’t know energy efficiency, only unfounded allegations about some kind of crazy fuel consumption. No numbers are given. and it’s somehow doubtful that these engines cost on that -214 and they carry 150 passengers and this is energy efficient, but 400 passengers suddenly have some gigantic costs.
Personally, my opinion is that the decline of globalism will bury the idea of ​​wide-body airliners, the future of which will belong to aircraft such as Il 62. The decline of the era of hydrocarbons will lead to astronomical prices for kerosene.

[Jackson]

What is this concept? Well, probably, this is some kind of promising direction into which money is being poured, and which will allow us to gain some advantage over others. Will the old plane provide this? Do not make me laugh.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Jackson

What is this concept? Well, probably, this is some kind of promising direction into which money is being poured, and which will allow us to gain some advantage over others. Will the old plane provide this? Do not make me laugh.

The Boeing 737 is older than the IL-96.

[anclevalico]

What kind of locomotive is it? One car to transport precious fillets from the bunker? Actually, we owe it to him that time is irretrievably lost and deservedly, he should have ridden in a carriage with horses.

[Nikolay Anatolyevich]

It is clear that Tsipso is working

[Greyjojo]

Education should become the driving force of the economy. Holistic, high quality, affordable. From primary school to higher education.

So far this is not the case - everything else is empty talk and an attempt to repaint “useless Soviet galoshes.”

Recently it was said: “Teachers’ salaries cannot be increased. This will ruin them.”
And after that you can dream about aviation space and high technology?

[Vasily I]

You know... The picture of the World that is drawn in education should not differ dramatically from everyday realities. Otherwise, it will capture the romantics and reject the majority.
Alas, this process cannot but be gradual.
We tested another option in practice exactly 100 years ago - it works. From scratch - it's called. Do you want to demolish the entire infrastructure to "0"? So I don’t want to.

[Aerodrome]

according to the auto industry, here.. a "Muscovite" has appeared... what a shame... it's a shame... it's a Spanish shame. After all, to be honest: "Beijing" is better suited.

[Nikolay Anatolyevich]

It would be much better to throw 3000 workers out of the factory onto the street and wait for their time... and the people, and x with them

[hagen]

Quote: GreyJoJo

Recently it was said: “Teachers’ salaries cannot be increased. This will ruin them.”

In a psycho-narcological hospital, you don’t hear anything like that. So, are we going to discuss all their fantasies too? Does this certain minister of something in one of the regions greatly influence the federal development programs of anything in Russia? Then why make waves? Are you catching the hype? Is it worth it?

[Artunis]

He must, he must, but who will give it to him! While the monetary authorities are in charge of the “Shakhrizadovnas and silumins” whose task is to prevent production growth in the country under any circumstances (and which they have been successfully solving for the last 20 years), our locomotive of the economy is reliably and tightly welded to the rails on the siding, and the rails in front and behind dismantled and handed over to the secondary metallurgical industry by very efficient managers. And you are happy about something!

[zenion]

It’s simply amazing that the bad government was replaced by a much worse one and called it a priority, because instead of one party there were multi-parties that produce nothing, but break everything.

[km-21]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

There is such a concept - the locomotive of the economy, and the Il-96-400 should become such a locomotive, at least for the large civil aircraft industry in Russia. I like it so much, I’m so happy!

This is an empty slogan. The main problem of the IL-96 is the lack of a sufficient sales market. Despite all the good things, Russian airlines need no more than three dozen aircraft. This volume is not profitable, since small-scale production leads to high costs. But this car will not be allowed on the foreign market. In any case, as long as the United States dictates the terms of admission.

This leads to the conclusion that this project is futile. Or, as an option, about the need to recreate the USSR with such power and international influence that will allow the implementation of such projects.

[Passing]

You can get by with less radical means. The volume of air transportation is largely determined by its affordability. We are artificially raising domestic fuel prices into space, synchronizing them with world prices. What's stopping you from lowering prices? We are fuel producers, our cost is five times lower than the market price. Whatever price you set, it will still be profitable.
Will a dozen oligarchs and a thousand highly paid managers under them lose their share of the domestic market? They still have a foreign market. And anyway, who said that their interests are more important than the interests of 140 million. Human? Will the share of budget revenues fall? So it will grow from aircraft manufacturing and air transportation.
Maybe some clause from the WTO is interfering? Does it really make any sense for us to be there, being forever banned from the Western economy?

[km-21]

Reducing the price of fuel will not affect the high cost of production. All the same, airlines will have to buy this plane at exorbitant prices. Someone will have to pay a subsidy. Either the state, or the manufacturer, or the airline.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: km-21

Reducing the price of fuel will not affect the high cost of production. All the same, airlines will have to buy this plane at exorbitant prices. Someone will have to pay a subsidy. Either the state, or the manufacturer, or the airline.

How will it affect? It’s trite that if wages remain the same, the purchasing power of the population will increase. An excess of fuel in the domestic market will begin to create competition in this cluster, which will force producers to improve the quality of fuel or engage in deeper processing. In fact, today excise taxes are bending the population, but it is necessary to bend the exporters of subsoil.

[Borik]

It was easy and quick to destroy the civil aircraft industry, but it would take decades to revive it.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Borik

It was easy and quick to destroy the civil aircraft industry, but to revive it it takes decades.

the work of enthusiasts and specialists, masters of “golden hands”.

[zenion]

ROSS 42. It so happened because no one thought that they would have to stay, but would have to make their own legs. It turned out that the rest were not interested in the fact that the power had changed, like what the hell with it, what kind of government will be bad for us everywhere. And one guy named Alexey really liked to come up with all sorts of words and combine them. What the heck with the child, as long as she’s a girl. So he called it and off he went. It's his fault and no one else's. Do not tell and will not be told.

[bandabas]

And certainly not "Chemezovs".

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Borik

It was easy to destroy the civil aircraft industry and...

These are the consequences of friendship with the West and theory we'll buy everything. Aviation, like many other areas, is a locomotive of progress: technology, production, maintenance, trained personnel, etc. Russia was pushed out of the process of creating aircraft for two decades and now it will have to resist. This is probably one of the reasons why the Swedes left the project with Britain on a 5th generation fighter: you will lose your skills and in creating the next one you will become an extra.
96-400m will be useful in the SLO, but alas for businessmen: yesterday it was necessary to put the developers behind the drawing boards, and maybe... or at best, maybe the Chinese will sell

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

These are the consequences of friendship with the West and the “we’ll buy everything” theory.

These are, rather, the consequences of an uncritical attitude towards the “free” market. By strictly following the rules of which, Boeing and Airbus crush all national competitors - stupidly due to cheaper cars during large-scale construction and a long-established service system.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Alexey RA

rather, the consequences of an uncritical attitude towards the “free” market...

And this too without a doubt. They simply took advantage of the gullibility and corruption of characters whom the collapse of the Union raised from nowhere to the heights of power.
Now we have to resist... the main thing is that defective didn't interfere

[exo]

I would add quality. Because the parameters, resources and ease of operation of Western engines were not comparable to the PS-90. Moreover, I’m talking about PS’s peers. It’s also better not to remember about avionics. Il-96, aircraft from the late 80s. And that's it. Like the Tu-204. They have no future in airlines. Although, there may be military applications for Tupolev.

[faiver]

so it may be found for the 96th, if we can produce at least in small commercial quantities

[Pete mitchell]

I also remember how teams of technicians sat at all foreign destinations: then the PS-90, or rather the drive box, did not demonstrate the best results. I hope they are cured, twenty years have passed.

Quote: exo

and Tu-204. They have no future in airlines. Although, there may be military applications for Tupolev.

Of course, we know better from the couch but I think civilians should focus on MS & SJ.

[Escariot]

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: Pete Mitchell

These are the consequences of friendship with the West and the “we’ll buy everything” theory.

These are, rather, the consequences of an uncritical attitude towards the “free” market. By strictly following the rules of which, Boeing and Airbus crush all national competitors - stupidly due to cheaper cars during large-scale construction and a long-established service system.

But you forget that the end consumer needs high-quality products, depending on whose hands it was made. And he will vote with his wallet.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote from Escariot

the final consumer... he will vote with his wallet.

this is obvious, within the limits of the proposed choice, the client will vote in rubles.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

this is obvious, within the limits of the proposed choice, the client will vote in rubles.

Especially when the client receives a kickback for purchasing a product from his office.

[Pete mitchell]

Do you really want to say that this is exactly how Boeing & airbus were pushed into the Russian market? What are you saying, he can’t hit what else could be expected from the changed Komsomol leaders and party secretaries.
I don’t want to think that we’ll have to wait 40 years for smart, state-minded managers to appear. Maybe at least the SVO will nominate a new generation of managers.
And the end client

Quote: Pete Mitchell

within the limits of the proposed choice, will vote in rubles.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

Do you really want to say that this is exactly how Boeing & airbus were pushed into the Russian market?

I read about Boeing and don’t remember where. And, for example, that Mercedes gave kickbacks, including to ours, that their carts were purchased for the government, was quite broadcast on the first channel.

Quote: Pete Mitchell

I don’t want to think that we’ll have to wait 40 years for smart, state-minded managers to appear.

Well, the young man has hopes. I personally already hesitated to wait. And it’s no longer just Komsomol members and secretaries, but their children have been in charge for a long time.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

the young man has hopes. I personally already hesitated to wait. And it’s no longer just Komsomol members and secretaries, but their children have been in charge for a long time.

Well, I want to be positive - I have the opportunity.
I also don’t know how to break this vicious circle - the marshal has his own son. I'm probably an optimist, but remember why Moses led the Jews through the desert for 40 years? Free people came out of the desert, not knowing... I hope something similar is happening

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Borik

It was easy and quick to destroy the civil aircraft industry, but it would take decades to revive it.

Not just decades, but decades of purposeful, persistent and competent work of all participants in the process, from the worker to the president of the country. Or rather, from the president to the worker.

[faiver]

Well, actually everything has been said, you can only comment further on the situation with obscenities

[IVZ]

Well, actually everything has been said, you can only comment further on the situation with obscenities

"Down and Out trouble started". Using the example of the defense industry, we can conclude that the Russian industry as a whole has considerable potential. It doesn’t matter whether the legacy is the USSR or not. It exists and that's the main thing. If you start to seriously address the problem, then everything will work out.

[faiver]

it means everything will be

- but neither you nor I will have to live in this wonderful era...

[IVZ]

In prophecy. Vanga nervously smokes on the sidelines. For us, a lot depends on the “royal” will. If necessary, the Crimean bridge appears, the defense industry moves, and everything is implemented in an unprecedented time frame. I can’t say that I’m wildly delighted with the current model, but... it somehow works.

[faiver]

but... it somehow works.

- the lack of serial production of the Il-96 does not in any way affect the political and economic situation in the country as a whole; accordingly, there will be no “royal” will on this issue. It’s bullshit that ordinary people fly from distant regions to Moscow for 6-9 hours, huddled in Boeing 737s, who knows what year they were made....

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: IVZ

"Down and Out trouble started".

Quote: IVZ

If you start to seriously address the problem, then everything will work out.

I once posted government documents here, from the early XNUMXs, on replacing the maize plant. The fifth five-year plan is underway, things are still there. Disgraceful.

[NIKN]

Quote: IVZ

If you start to seriously address the problem, then everything will work out.

This is if you take it seriously. Alas, there is no one to seriously engage with us, do you really think that the herd that is called the Duma can do something seriously other than corruption?

[Ross xnumx]

But even Chemezov thinksthat with the PS-90A the Il-96-400M has no chance of becoming an effective aircraft for the commercial air transportation market.

And he offers???

a question to which the head of Rostec does not yet have an exact answer.

And when did Chemezov become an expert in aircraft construction? Perhaps, simultaneously with Kiriyenko becoming the main Rosatom specialist in Russia, and Rogozin becoming the main star?
Doesn’t 600 income weigh on his (Chemezov’s) conscience? Doesn't your pocket feel tight?
And if these bravura reports on exceeding production growth plans are translated into accounting units and pieces, will everything remain the same rosy color?

[U-58]

The funeral sentiments about the PS-90 are completely incomprehensible.
So what if he’s “50 years old”? Well, first of all, it’s not 50, but that’s not the point. We have a reliable engine, worked out to the smallest detail, with a decent service life for several aircraft. Have you forgotten about the IL-76?
Yes, not newfangled chic, but, I repeat, “on the other side, even an old woman is a gift from God.”
So he will still fly for another 50 years, maybe.
About the PD-35, we can only state the fact that they are working on it quite confidently and continuously and it will still be there.

[South Ukrainian]

Quote: U-58

So what if he's "50 years old"

I agree 100% While it’s not too much trouble, you can use this engine. If they finish with PD-35 - great. And in general, the Boeing 747 has been flying since 70 to this day and there’s nothing to it.

[Santa Fe]

And in general, the Boeing 747 has been flying since 70 to this day and there’s nothing to it.

During this time, the 747 went through 3 generations of engines.

P.S. 747 discontinued

[avia12005]

In an oil-producing country, talking about the efficiency of aircraft engines for domestic transportation is at least strange, and at most pure idiocy. The price of jet fuel can be perfectly compensated at the government level, if there is a desire.

As for production, if there is a will from above, it is necessary to revive the Ministry of Aviation Industry, and appoint a production worker as minister, and not a close friend and “manager”.

Organize a system of retraining and training of personnel, subordinate directly to this ministry, and not to the Ministry of Education.

But what is obvious to everyone is completely indifferent to the government.

[KCA]

You can’t fill the tanks of an airplane with oil, you need kerosene, but our refineries are bad, one will be closed for repairs throughout the country, oops, both with the availability of fuel and with the price

[DenVB]

Quote: KCA

We need kerosene, but our refineries are bad, one will be closed for repairs and the whole country is oops

This is some kind of nonsense. We only have dozens of large refineries. And there are many more mini-refineries.

True, in the last decade the government has been deliberately sabotaging the development of domestic oil refining, encouraging businesses to export crude oil.

[KCA]

Look for information about refineries, about their problems, there are not enough refineries in Russia, and there haven’t been since the 70s of the last century, what kind of nonsense is a mini refinery? Oil refinery station for 100 liters of gasoline per day?

[DenVB]

Quote: KCA

What kind of nonsense is a mini refinery?

Just type “mini refinery” into a search engine and see what kind of nonsense it is.

[Escariot]

Quote: avia12005

In an oil-producing country, talking about the efficiency of aircraft engines for domestic transportation is at least strange, and at most pure idiocy. The price of jet fuel can be perfectly compensated at the government level, if there is a desire.

As for production, if there is a will from above, it is necessary to revive the Ministry of Aviation Industry, and appoint a production worker as minister, and not a close friend and “manager”.

Organize a system of retraining and training of personnel, subordinate directly to this ministry, and not to the Ministry of Education.

But what is obvious to everyone is completely indifferent to the government.

Look at the USA. It is also an oil-producing country. But no one compensates airlines for high fuel prices, which is why aircraft manufacturers have to develop ever more efficient engines. Well, in the end, in order to reduce the price of kerosene, you don’t need to compensate someone for fuel costs, but you can simply reduce taxes, which amount to 70% of the price of fuel.

[Amateur]

Strange economy. Il-96 is unprofitable, but imported Boeings and Airbuses, for which there are no spare parts, are profitable? The economy should not be calculated by the amount of kerosene. but in terms of the economic effect of transporting passengers from point A to point B. And if there is nothing to transport these passengers, then the entire economy goes to waste.
ps At the end of the 80s, a discussion arose about the profitability of telephone communications in the USSR. Economists of the USSR Ministry of Communications were “tearing their shirts” due to the impossibility of proving its high profitability “in numbers”, because only the income/expenses of the department itself were taken into account. And at one meeting in the middle of 1990, dedicated to this topic, when everyone quarreled with everyone, one person suddenly spoke, unfortunately I don’t remember his name now, and said: “All this is nonsense and professional incompetence of the Ministry of Communications economists. The economic effect of "The availability of communications should be considered this way: we turn off telephone communications at any factory for one day, and then count the losses that this enterprise will incur during this day. This will be the real profit from communications."

[faiver]

IL-96 is unprofitable

- for me, the question is not about unprofitability - there is no one to produce them, there are no specialists

[VicktorVR]

Having experience working at half-dead semi-defense enterprises, I can say the following:
if they really want to revive production on the basis of such a “living corpse,” they need to change ALL top management. Most of the middle and lower.
It is also necessary to replace half of the remaining engineers and workers. Maybe more. Yes, I will scream that these are valuable personnel, with great experience, without them everything will fall apart.
No, most of the workers and engineers, who are at least something of themselves, left a long time ago. Those who remain, for the most part, are those who are not needed anywhere, who agree to “serve their number” for the minimum wage, but “are not forced to work”; managers similarly, or in addition, who have the ability to steal, are also not needed.
Resp. a huge personnel work is emerging, requiring extremely high qualifications and large resources, both financial (increase salary) and administrative (situations when an ordinary employee runs to complain about the new manager directly to the general manager, his old friend, will be commonplace). Who will carry it out? Where can you get so many resources? Can you imagine how many “calluses” will be “trodden down” at all levels?
It will be necessary to restore order in the management system. But rather creating a new one from scratch. Situations where salaries are calculated on paper using a paper file of prices, and production plans are adjusted at multi-hour daily meetings are not uncommon at such enterprises. And for this you need to understand production. This again requires resources - time (it would easily take a year to clear out all the stables), and highly qualified personnel, who must be paid accordingly. Salary
Most likely 90% of the equipment needs to be replaced or capitalized. Half of them are right away, the rest is in progress.
At the same time, taking into account modern technologies, a significant part (easily half) is easier to immediately scrap and replace with a multiple increase in labor productivity (of course, if you plan to assemble not one aircraft per year, but at least a dozen per month).
Those. processes also, for the most part, need to be reworked and changed taking into account modern equipment, while at the same time carrying out a lot of (or even enormous) work with designers, who are creative people, draw as they see, without thinking about how to make this art. For this, we again need people with very high qualifications, experience, and motivation.

In short, it’s a huge job, and I don’t see any focus on such work in our country at the moment.
For now, if necessary, they simply stupidly throw money at the problems. If we need more parts, we’ll buy more machines, take people out for a day with double pay. Understand and improve the productivity of what you already have?! - No, it’s difficult and unnecessary. You can't cut the budget on this.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: VicktorVR

Having experience working at half-dead semi-defense enterprises, I can say the following:
if they really want to revive production on the basis of such a “living corpse,” they need to change ALL top management. Most of the middle and lower.
It is also necessary to replace half of the remaining engineers and workers. Maybe more. Yes, I will scream that these are valuable personnel, with great experience, without them everything will fall apart.

There will be no screaming. There will be angry articles and letters to all authorities about how huckster oligarchs or corrupt government officials, by order of the West, are ruining feeding trough another “unique enterprise with valuable personnel.”
It’s easier to build a plant in a new location - like the Klimov workers in Shuvalovo.

[runway-1]

Quote: Alexey RA

...
It’s easier to build a plant in a new location - like the Klimov workers in Shuvalovo.

That's not what this example is about. It’s just that production was moved to the outskirts, and very profitable land was used for expensive residential development...

[balabol]

The translation of the Klimov plant is an example of the right solution. The site is sandwiched in a residential area of ​​a former industrial area with no possibility of expansion. Between the railway and the highway with high traffic. There were no new areas. It was not possible to stop rice growing, demolish old workshops, or resume production. Therefore, first they created a new plant outside the city, transferred everyone there, and after that part of the territory was sold (there were poor old workshops there). More or less normal buildings remained standing.
Have you heard how engines were tested at the old plant? What was the noise in the area?
It’s good that we managed to sell the land; we are not talking about any elite property there. A railway track 100 meters away or a busy city highway with thousands of cars outside your windows day and night is such a pleasure, although yes, the metro is not far away.

[runway-1]

I didn’t write about the “elite”, but as for the real cost of housing there, just look at the developers’ websites (by the way, in those places there are already fully occupied houses instead of demolished enterprises)...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: WFP-1

That's not what this example is about. It’s just that production was moved to the outskirts, and very profitable land was used for expensive residential development...

Would it be better to organize production in the old place - on a narrow strip between the railway and Sampsonievsky Prospekt? In the land of eternal traffic jams, and with engine testing, exactly across the road from residential areas built in the early 50s?

There is nothing for industrial enterprises to do in the city. This is not the 19th century, when the worker's main means of transportation was his feet.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: VicktorVR

VicktorVR (Victor) Today, 06:03 New
+14

Having experience working at half-dead semi-defense enterprises, I can say the following:
if they really want to revive production on the basis of such a “living corpse,” they need to change ALL top management. Most of the middle and lower.
It is also necessary to replace half of the remaining engineers and workers. Maybe more

"Personnel decide everything." Stalin said this.
What does it mean? Only that properly selected personnel will be able to solve any problem (if it is solvable in principle).
This postulate was confirmed with great success by the Japanese in the 60s and 70s. They reinforced “personnel decide everything” by the fact that the first number in the company was the HR director.
I’ll probably keep silent about our current “personnel”, “personnel policy” and where this leads...

[Bad_gr]

Quote: VicktorVR

ALL top management needs to be changed. Most of the middle and lower.
It is also necessary to replace half of the remaining engineers and workers. Maybe more. Yes, I will scream that these are valuable personnel, with great experience, without them everything will fall apart.......

Well, we've already gone through this.
Under the old cadres in the Politburo, with Brezhnev at its head: gasoline was cheaper than mineral water, prices for products were printed on packs and cans right at the enterprises where the product was produced. And prices have not changed for decades. In general, there was stagnation in the country. The relatively young Gorbachev came, and then Yeltsin, young people appeared in the government: Gaidar, Chubais. The old staff was forced into retirement, and their places were taken by young managers. Now is it time to change again, to more literate ones?

[runway-1]

...if they really want to revive production on the basis of such a “living corpse,” they need to change ALL top management. Most of the middle and lower.
It is also necessary to replace half of the remaining engineers and workers. Maybe more.
... It will be necessary to restore order in the management system. But rather creating a new one from scratch.
... Most likely 90% of the equipment needs to be changed or capitalized. Half of them are right away, the rest is in progress.
... In short, it’s a huge job, and I don’t see, in principle, a focus on such work in our country yet.
For now, if necessary, they simply stupidly throw money at the problems. If we need more parts, we’ll buy more machines, take people out for a day with double pay. Understand and improve the productivity of what you already have?! - No, it’s difficult and unnecessary. You can't cut the budget on this.

That's right!

[tralflot1832]

Before criticizing modern aircraft manufacturing in Russia, we need to go back to the late 70s in the USSR, to the history of the Airbus concern - they missed the “revolution” in the West. It’s hard to catch up for objective reasons now, but it’s necessary. Now almost every day our planes return or go into forced service ,so far due to non-critical failures.

[South Ukrainian]

Quote: tralflot1832

It’s hard to catch up now for objective reasons, but it’s necessary.

Airbus sold aircraft at a loss for 20 years in order to gain a foothold in the market and move Boeing forward. We must at least provide the domestic market with our own aircraft.

[Kmon]

How is that? After 20 years of trading at a loss, any company would have gone bankrupt long ago.

[faiver]

yes, simple - subsidies, either direct or through taxation

[Kmon]

And what prevented us and other countries from doing the same?

[faiver]

for some other goals, for others lack of money

[Kmon]

And it’s hard to believe that the United States sat quietly and looked at this for 20 years. Why allow your colony to breed its own competitor?

[faiver]

so as not to put all your eggs in one basket

[Kmon]

Nonsense. It is always more profitable to crush all competitors. Capitalism always strives for monopoly.

[faiver]

So the monopoly exists in two persons, what is not clear?

[Kmon]

Are you saying that Boeing and Airbus don’t really compete? And if they compete, then this is no longer a monopoly.

[cast iron]

Where did you get the idea that at the time of the creation of the airbus concern, France, England and Germany were clear colonies of the United States? This can be argued now, but then the subordination of European countries was not so total. Especially France and England.

[Kmon]

At the time of the creation of the airbus concern, there had long been occupying American bases and troops there.

[abc_alex]

Just like Tesla sells its cars, being "planned unprofitable." Get unaccustomed to the fairy tales about the market economy in the West imposed by the “liberal media”. There the state has never hesitated to subsidize necessary production directly or indirectly.

[FighterD]

I can always unmistakably determine who the author of the article is by the depressive notes in the title of the article.
As a matter of fact, after that I don’t read it anymore

[Maxim Shalak]

A rocket was flying and fell into a swamp!
What a salary - such a job!

[Soldatov V.]

I flew as a passenger on an IL-86, a wonderful plane, it sits firmly in the air, as a friend of the crew commander told me. Why not fly the IL-96 along the same routes where the IL-86 flew? It’s clear with Europe, but the whole of Asia remains, a field not plowed for tourism. China, Vietnam, Thailand. And Cuba is where they wait for us and love us. Our own routes to Kamchatka, Vladivostok, all of Siberia. Crimea and Siberia, the Far North. 400 people instead of 100 on the Superjet, 200 on the MS-21.
Every Russian should visit the capital, Leningrad, Crimea, Kamchatka, Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands as a tourist.
The controversial issue is the number of engines. In terms of safety, four is better than two for such a huge thing.
And don’t talk about inefficiency, but develop economical engines.
Has anyone, in simulators, played out a situation with a malfunction of one engine of a twin-engine aircraft of this size, over the sea or taiga?
We have many fancy logistics centers, so give them the task of developing the use of the IL-96 aircraft if the old people don’t know where to adapt it.

[tralflot1832]

I also flew, IL 86 is not a “bomb” plane, but the range is not very good. IL 62 is easy from Shanon (Ireland) to Havanna (Cuba) directly, IL 86 - Shanon - Gander (Canada) - Havanna. The airspace will be closed for a long time on both sides, We definitely need our own long-range.

[Vladimirsky]

What was it? I don’t understand, are these pitiful convulsions, or a show-off, a waste of people’s money?

[fiv]

The article contains information that everyone already knows. Now, if only we could analyze how to overcome problems, find ways, so to speak. Otherwise, it turns out that we have a club of pique vests here, and not an expert community, understand...

[Voronezh]

I don’t understand why, but many write with despondency “this was done under the USSR, 50 years ago...” So what? Who said that using existing products with modernization is bad. Why is everything that was done before necessarily bad? Or is it necessary “to the ground and then...”, always from scratch? What will be bad about a plane with new engines? Maybe Boeing is designing each modification of its 737 from scratch? Or do they have no shoals? Only idiots do not use previous positive experience.

[mark1]

This is exactly the case when “the party said MUST!” IL-96 is currently a product for the domestic market, but one that can help the industry. The role of the state is important here, if the aircraft is not economical (although who checked, it is practically not in operation, and efficiency is determined by many factors, not only engines) - introduce subsidies and preferences (and what else is the state needed for? Including to substitute shoulder and lead in the right direction). No prospects and people? We have a bunch of people languishing over the wing of the CR-929, I think redesigning it under the 96th with the same people is already a less labor-intensive problem. The prospects, in fact, for the 96th are enormous - the Il-96-400 is a long-haul airliner, the Il96 TZ, AWACS and UU for aerospace forces, the Il-96-500 is a truck with loading/unloading self-propelled equipment and large-sized cargo. folding bow g.p. 100 tons, medium-range shf as an analogue of the IL-86 (that’s where the PD-14 can be attached)
With the Il-112 (as may happen with the Il-114), it seems more of a political decision (about the correctness or incorrectness of which I will not say anything, but it makes me nervous) to clear space for the TVRS-44
It's more about the personal interests of certain people at whom we will then point our fingers and spit when they retire to a well-deserved rest somewhere in Florida, Miami

[Vladimir80]

The prospects for the 96th are actually huge

Unfortunately, the prospects are huge if the country tries hard, but for now it’s just another empty chatter - preparations for the elections of some people... In the economic sense, the IMF proteges have chosen migrants - construction workers for the resettlement of Central Asia to Russia.

[Alex 1970]

According to a statement by VASO representatives, the production capacity of the aircraft manufacturing enterprise in Voronezh is capable of producing two wide-body Il-96-400M aircraft annually. Yes, and I don’t remember from the government, but Manturov said that the purchases would be for cargo transportation and a special detachment, I read it in Vzglyad). And how should we replace Boeings and Airbuses at this rate? They made a wonderful airplane that there is nowhere and no one to make, and no one is in a hurry to buy it. Damn, "you're insulting." Recently, it has become a common practice to show a sample that has “no analogues in the world,” make a few pieces, and happily forget about everything. This makes me so angry!

[runway-1]

show a sample that has no analogues in the world,

Yes, he is not the best in the world, especially today...

[Vasily I]

Can you imagine the cost of preparing SERIAL production? This is where they save...
And the price of a piece in piece production does not correspond to the calculated indicators...)))

[Stas157]

. a Yandex courier earns several times more than a design engineer

This is where potential design engineers will become couriers. And the management of the aircraft plant will whine that there are not enough personnel in Russia! But they won’t even think about raising people’s wages to an acceptable level.

[Vadim S]

It turns out funny: it means that our cars have old, gluttonous, many-liter engines, the peasants adore them and dream about them, “it’s reliable,” no matter that they eat old stuff, and yes, the ancient automatic machines are just super for them, it doesn’t matter that they’re even more gluttonous, but they want them. And on airplanes that means old stuff in no case! They eat a lot, you see :))) well, it’s just insanity and we want some other breakthroughs, there must be a breakthrough in our heads first of all, but there is complete callousness!

[pettabyte]

The problem is the layer of parasites.
Make the airlines state-owned, and turn the “golden parachutes” into “golden shrouds” for the managers (if you mess up, they’ll bury you right there with honors) - and bam, everything starts to spin.
Vadim is right that it is more logical to churn out your own planes and burn your own oil on them than to drive it over the hill. The economy (not Papuan) is like that.

[Russian_Ninja]

Are private airlines like that?
Maybe I’m wrong, but “state” is not a synonym for the word “good” and “honest”.
In Aeroflot, 57% of shares are state-owned. 43 percent do not have much influence on decisions in meetings.

Perhaps 100% Russian “business” will become an ordinary subsidized feeding trough

[acetophenone]

I think Russia simply does not need an aviation industry that can produce 3 passenger aircraft per year. It's like having one last tooth in your mouth when the rest have already fallen out.
Apart from problems - no benefit.

[Vladimir80]

Il-96-400M: premature joy

Unfortunately, this is exactly the case, supervisors from the IMF (d, uh, a) will not allow the development of aircraft manufacturing. The colonial status of 1/7 of the land is only consolidated over time.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Stas157

But they won’t even think about raising people’s wages to an acceptable level.

Where to get money for salary? You can’t take it away from yourself, after all!

[Zaurbek]

So, off the top of my head, stop withdrawing funds to offshore companies... and redistribute profits between the store and production back......we now have all our profits going into sales, but previously they were in production. This is in all industries. Even in mine (meat processing plant - retail chain)

[Zaurbek]

Yes, it’s very good that the Il-96-400M took off and flew, not like the Il-112V. [i] [/ i]

So it was not the Russian Federation that designed and began to build it, but a past, more developed civilization..... So, maybe it would have already flown with 2 pieces of D18T

[Winnie76]

Quote: Zaurbek

Past, more developed civilization....

It was a wonderful country. But for the sake of objectivity, it turned out to be unable to provide the minimum needs of the Soviet people. Let me remind you about the trains to the capital “for grub”, about the long-term queues for washing machines, refrigerators, televisions, cars. About order tables, when you had to buy worthless garbage to buy a shortage

[Zaurbek]

Well, there were no reforms, the system was not flexible and dogmatic... With the modern development of communications and the Internet, I don’t know how it would have existed. But China shows that there was a way out. Even some CIS countries such as Uzbekistan show that there was a way. They screwed the country themselves. Elites in the form of the CPSU/Military/KGB/MVD...first of all.

[Kmon]

China abandoned the ideals of socialism; in the USSR it was not without reason that it was branded a bourgeois traitor. Since the 70s, there has essentially been capitalism under the guise of communism.

[Zaurbek]

I don’t agree.....all large industrial assets and banks are owned by the state......and light/medium industry is private.....Yes, there are capitalists. I’ll give you an example from my industry: why should a collective farm, a meat processing plant and a store be state-owned? The USSR was burned by all sorts of crap like jeans, sausage, etc..... We bought it from Fiat - AvtoVAZ, why not buy a couple more licenses? People had money with which people could not buy anything.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Kmon

China abandoned the ideals of socialism; in the USSR it was not without reason that it was branded a bourgeois traitor. Since the 70s, there has essentially been capitalism under the guise of communism.

In your opinion, the standard of socialism is the USSR during the times of Khrushchev and Brezhnev, when China was stigmatized? Well, China also condemned the USSR for what they considered to be the wrong course. In the USSR of the 20s there was the NEP with the bourgeoisie, during the time of Stalin there were artels and private traders, during the time of Gorbachev there were cooperatives. And time has shown that China is right. Their plant, a copy of the ZIL that Soviet engineers built, is working hard under state control, producing a bunch of models, but the ZIL is nothing but ruins. It will be the same with the airplane, which we invented with them in “cooperation.”

[Kmon]

Let me remind you that it was Stalin who abandoned the NEP as a wrong policy. But artels and private owners are not at all on the same scale as capitalism in China. And China managed to develop so much and become the factory of the world only because of its billion-strong population willing to work for a cup of rice. His experience cannot be extended to other countries.

[Kmon]

And also because of the incredible hard work of the Chinese and positioning themselves as an enemy of the USSR. Otherwise, it would be a damn thing, not foreign investment. And without investment, they wouldn’t have developed.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Kmon

But artels and private owners are not at all on the same scale as capitalism in China.

How do you know how far they would have developed if Khrushchev had not covered everything up? My grandfather was a handicraft shoemaker; he had enough to live on and raise five children. In our city there was a “Third Five-Year Plan” artel, which produced household chemicals, now it is “Procter and Jewel”, which sells Tide and Ariel throughout Russia. At the end of the 80s, a joint venture was created on the basis of Novomoskovskbytkhim, which transferred the artel under Khrushchev to state ownership.

Quote: Kmon

And China managed to develop so much and become the factory of the world only because of its billion-strong population ready to work for a cup of rice

They no longer work for a cup of rice and laugh at our hard workers that they get half as much as they do at the car plant in the Tula region. You seem to be stuck in the early XNUMXs.

Quote: Kmon

Otherwise, it would be a damn thing, not foreign investment.

Foreign investors were drawn to them not only because of the low salaries of the Chinese, but also because they quickly provided them with all the infrastructure, from workshop sites to electricity, roads and gas at a time when we had 90 - all this dragged on for years with the motto “if you don’t put it on, you won’t go.”

[Kmon]

History does not tolerate subjunctive moods. For the Soviet people, ideology was much more important than for the Chinese; they could even imagine so openly betraying the ideals of socialism and switching to capitalism (the NEP was closed because it began to smack too clearly of capitalism. Nepmen and wild corruption...). Before perestroika Ogonyok and mass propaganda from TV. Khrushchev may have made a mistake from an economic point of view (unprofitable), but from an ideological point of view (Marxism-socialism, no private ownership of production) he did the right thing.

So then China became the factory of the world precisely because of the huge masses of poor workers. And now that the standard of living of Chinese workers has improved, production is slowly beginning to leave China. Think about why.

I repeat, investors would not have reached out, no matter what conditions the Chinese provided (they would have simply been banned), if the West had not decided to make China another enemy of the USSR. How many investors invested in the USSR during the Cold War? China is a unique case; there are no other similar examples. We would not be able to do like China for the reasons described above.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Kmon

History does not tolerate subjunctive moods.

And as a result, Chinese goods are being sold here with all their might.

Quote: Kmon

but from an ideological point of view (Marxism-socialism, no private ownership of production) he did the right thing.

Nonsense. An artel is the same collective farm, but who did my grandfather exploit? Except perhaps my father in the presence of Khrushchev, when he was on the prowl, at that time already illegally making and selling shoes. Under Stalin there was no need to stand on the sidelines.

Quote: Kmon

And now, when the standard of living of Chinese workers has increased, production is slowly beginning to leave China. Think about why.

Let them leave. China has achieved its goal. He got what he wanted. Nobody will take away the infrastructure. And technology is in order. Almost everyone is already releasing them themselves. Just don’t rub me in about airplane blades here. This technology represents a tiny thousandth, or even a millionth, of a percentage of the total profit.

Quote: Kmon

How many investors invested in the USSR during the Cold War?

Enough. Italian Fiat, Porsche specialists from Germany made the eight, the Japanese supplied equipment, the Americans supplied asphalt pavers... This is what I remembered offhand... Without CMEA.

Quote: Kmon

We would not be able to do like China for the reasons described above.

The Cold War ended and we had many times greater chances to do better than in China. In the 90s, only the lazy did not laugh at their products.

[Negro]

Quote: Mordvin 3

we had many times greater chances to do better than in China.

To do this, it was necessary to turn onto the Chinese path on time. RKMP, NEP or, as a last resort, Kosygin reforms. In the 80s, urbanization ended, the second demographic transition took place, and there were no longer any simple options for any authoritarian modernizations.

Quote: Mordvin 3

China has achieved its goal. He got what he wanted.

China has reached the level of the USSR. No one understands what he should do next. They drew graphs to the right and upward, but hit the average income trap like it was a wall. Another one threatened to overtake America and failed to catch up with Portugal. It is incredibly difficult to catch up with Portugal and is a task that is usually greatly underestimated.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Negro

or, as a last resort, Kosygin reforms.

Kosygin's reforms completed the development of the USSR.

Quote: Negro

China has reached the level of the USSR. No one understands what he should do next.

Who doesn't understand? China will begin its "golden age" in 10 years.

[Alexey RA]

He-he-he... You are walking on very thin ice - this is practically a quote from GDP.

Vladimir Putin: We had a defense industry that was great, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense industry after the Great Patriotic War.
From the audience: ... And the first satellite.
Vladimir Putin: Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet government, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
But consumer goods... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There weren't any. Let's not lie to each other and the people. People know what happened and what didn’t happen

[faiver]

But consumer goods

- yeah, there wasn’t enough chewing gum, jeans and 50-100 varieties of sausage, but now there’s a lot of this shit and man is a wolf, so was it worth it?..... I would have hanged Khrushchev himself, the dog

[Zaurbek]

The organization of this ShirPotreb was not worth the collapse of the USSR. And it wasn't that difficult. But dogmas needed to be changed.

[Alexey RA]

The system of procurement and Soviet trade had to be changed. The one that relied on the distribution of the deficit through government agencies. For whom deficit was beneficial, because it meant money and power. And in which the term buy was superseded by the term get it.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: faiver

- yeah, there wasn’t enough chewing gum, jeans and 50-100 types of sausage

The system of selling meat to the public using coupons was introduced in February 1977. Standards for the sale of meat and poultry are established depending on resources.

In 1979, with a stock of meat of 453 tons, 240 tons were sold to the population; 60 tons for war veterans and diabetics; 153 tons were spent on social services. In January February, with a meat limit of 80 tons, sales using coupons amounted to 70 tons 0,5 kg per person per month.

In 1979, 265 tons of animal oil were sold to the population, with a stock of 337 tons. In January, oil was not traded due to lack of resources. In February-March, 30 tons were sold using coupons, with a limit of 37 tons of 200 grams. per person per month.

© Letter from the Deputy Head of the Trade Department of the Perm Regional Executive Committee I.N. Volkov to the Perm Regional Committee of the CPSU about the results of an inspection of the Chusovsky auction in Perm on April 11, 1980.

Here is developed socialism outside the cities of the special and first category of supply. Eat well, citizens of the RSFSR - the country generously allows you to buy half a kilo of meat and 200 grams of butter per person per month. And only if these scanty limits are allocated.

[Kmon]

This does not fit with the memories of the USSR of the overwhelming majority.

[Negro]

Quote: Kmon

the overwhelming majority.

The vast majority of journalists? So what they pay for is what they write. If they tell you to write about the Evil Empire, they will write about the Evil Empire.

Not all people who saw the USSR alive are now in insanity. And even if you want to, you won’t forget such a spectacle as the USSR.

[faiver]

And even if you want to, you won’t forget such a spectacle as the USSR.

- of course I won’t forget, I traveled half the country on vouchers

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Alexey RA

Eat well, citizens of the RSFSR - the country generously allows you to buy half a kilo of meat and 200 grams of butter per person per month.

You are distorting and not taking into account market meat and butter. My grandmother sold goat milk at the state price, by the way, 28 kopecks, she didn’t make butter, but she did make cottage cheese.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Mordvin 3

You are distorting and not taking into account market meat and butter.

That is, you confirm that the huge system of Soviet state trade, the only task of which was to supply the citizens of the state with products, could not cope with its tasks without “grandmothers from the market”. Collective farms, state farms, bases, factories, trades, shops... and at the exit - half a kilo of meat and 200 grams of butter per person per month.
And I still don’t remember about the annual battle for the harvest, with the involvement of the army and engineers and workers.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Alexey RA

Collective farms, state farms, bases, factories, trades, shops... and the output is half a kilo of meat and 200 grams of butter per person per month.

For that matter, I personally eat less meat now than in the USSR.

Quote: Alexey RA

And I still don’t remember about the annual battle for the harvest, with the involvement of the army and engineers and workers.

But it would be necessary. Where do all these seasonal workers go? There's one of them, he pissed all over my entrance. He has nothing to do, he’s finished collecting potatoes, no one needs him anymore.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Alexey RA

But consumer goods ... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? They weren't there.

I have already written many times that the president is disingenuous here, to put it mildly.

[Zaurbek]

People had money, but they could not spend it.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zaurbek

People had money, but they could not spend it.

I would go to the market and spend as much as I wanted. But no, many wanted a blue chicken worth one and a half kilos at the state price, which died from an electric shock, which is why it was bluer than the market chicken worth five kilos, whose head was chopped off with an ax and the blood was drained. So now we have a continuous market and there are no state prices as an alternative. And why is this better? C-1 eggs have become one and a half times more expensive in a couple of years; I haven’t seen them cheaper than 89 rubles today, although a couple of months ago they were 75.

[abc_alex]

She provided exactly the MINIMUM 100%. You're just fixated on the "sausage". And you forget that education and medicine were 100% provided, basic material needs were accessible, including prices for housing and communal services and public transport.
But what we couldn’t satisfy was growing and most importantly changing needs of the population. When the explosive urbanization of the country began in the 60-70s, the structure of demand changed dramatically. The same sausage became in short supply precisely when the lion's share of the country's population turned from rural residents to city dwellers. But the planned economy in that management system turned out to be too clumsy.

[Stas157]

Quote: Winnie76

Let me remind you about trains to the capital “for grub”

There was simply plenty of grub. And we went to Moscow for sausage and champagne for a wedding.

Quote: Winnie76

Let me remind you about the trains to the capital “for grub”, about the long-term queues for washing machines, refrigerators, televisions, cars.

There was a line behind the cars. But everyone had washing machines, refrigerators and televisions! Those who didn’t have a car took a motorcycle with a sidecar. No queue at all. The Cossacks and Luazs were there without a queue.

[Sergey39]

As always, Roman collected facts and expressed his point of view, but it is not true. Yes! The plane was still developed by the USSR. But the Russian Federation is not the USSR and it is very good that they were able to gather the competence to build an aircraft. It is clear that with 4 engines it cannot compete in terms of “economy” with its US and EU counterparts in passenger transportation. But, it will be able to ensure the transportation of goods in our vast country. Only with the advent of the PD-35 will it become a full-fledged long-range aircraft for passenger transportation.
We, under sanctions and nothing more, are our own helpers.

[Nikolay Anatolyevich]

Before the appearance of the PD 35, it is necessary to modernize the plant’s capacities and increase the production of aircraft. By 2030, the production will reach 10 or more aircraft per year and the next one will arrive in time

[faiver]

so you need to start designing an aircraft for this PD-35 now, just remove 4 old engines and stick 2 new ones in no way

[Victor Leningradets]

Apparently the chosen plane is Il-96-400. How will the first pancake go? Only he needs a new composite wing from the PD-35. If the PD-35 is completed, then there will be no problems.
We need a government order that will allow us to launch serial rather than unique production, then this is worth doing. And it must first be exploited by the State Company, which works according to the formula of planned return on investment, and not at all on the “market”. Approximately according to this scheme, new power plants are built and operated within the framework of the CSA.

[Victor Leningradets]

If fuel for domestic consumers has an adequate price (cost + profitability level), and not some exchange futures, then the IL-96 is quite competitive. And the last nail in the coffin of world imperialism is the transfer of the aircraft fleet to liquefied natural gas.

[Escariot]

Quote: Victor Leningradets

If fuel for domestic consumers has an adequate price (cost + profitability level), and not some exchange futures, then the IL-96 is quite competitive. And the last nail in the coffin of world imperialism is the transfer of the aircraft fleet to liquefied natural gas.

As soon as you remove the cost of fuel on the domestic market, there will immediately be swindlers who will sell this fuel abroad, bypassing customs. Remember, like the classic: there is no such crime, capital will not be used for 300% of the profit

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Victor Leningradets

And the last nail in the coffin of world imperialism is the transfer of the aircraft fleet to liquefied natural gas.

Yeah, the only problem is that the weight of an empty gas cylinder is almost 50 percent of the weight of gas. And they, unlike rubber ones, are hard. You should be on the aircraft design team, hammering nails into the coffin of imperialism.

[Victor Leningradets]

No, dear Mordvin 3.
Because I do, among other things. and gas tankers, then I assure you that LNG tanks are not designed for excess pressure at all. They are made of carbon fiber, conformal and, most importantly, well insulated in terms of heat. They work like Dewar flasks and may well be located where aviation kerosene tanks are located on an airplane. The mass of a filled tank with kerosene and a carbon fiber Dewar with LNG of equal energy potential are approximately equal, and the engine service life is longer on natural gas.
At the end of the 80s of the last century, an experimental Tu-154 converted to use LNG flew, but the underdevelopment of technology and the subsequent collapse of the Union buried this sound idea.

[pettabyte]

Nationalization. Next, sending speculators, defective managers/owners and other boards of directors to the North Military District into assault squads.
And then...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: pettabyte

Nationalization.

Hehehehe... so the main shareholder of VASO is the state. Maybe it’s worth changing something in the state management of your own property?

[DenVB]

Quote: Alexey RA

Maybe it’s worth changing something in the state management of your own property?

And this is the favorite trick of our liberal economists: persistently demonstrating that state-owned enterprises are less efficient than private businesses. For example, you can look at Russian Post.

Most likely, in the government, when they appoint managers to state-owned enterprises, they directly say: steal, destroy, be tyrant, do whatever you want, we will always smear you and give you a promotion, just don’t even think about doing anything competent there - we have long arms and long memory.

[Zaurbek]

A metallurgical plant is better than the state, final metal products are probably better than private....

[Alexey RA]

Quote: DenVB

Most likely, in the government, when they appoint managers to state-owned enterprises, they directly say: steal, destroy, be tyrant, do whatever you want, we will always smear you and give you a promotion, just don’t even think about doing anything competent there - we have long arms and long memory.

They say it simpler - do what you want. Anyway, you are already in the nomenklatura, so your fate does not depend on the results of your work - in extreme cases, we will appoint you to another position. And to get punishment, you will need to smoke an absolutely enchanting joint.
So government officials lead in the style of: Oh, what a pity, I still had so many ideas!

[Nikolay Anatolyevich]

So we need an order for 100 or more aircraft, modernization of production, effective management and control, and money from the UAC or the state directly. In 5-6 years the plant will produce 10 aircraft per year.

[Dedok]

Years without orders under an openly fattening management had taken their toll - tired of the fantastic salaries of 16-18 thousand rubles, people began to run away.

this situation is all around us

[Dedok]

Quote: pettabyte

Next, sending speculators, defective managers/owners and other boards of directors to the North Military District into assault squads.

wow, father, what are you up to...

[Eugene Zaboy]

You can talk as long as you like about the shortcomings of the IL-96-400, but it exists. This outweighs everything. In order to have airplanes, they must be made, not talked about and dreamed about. Only production and operation will allow us to refine the existing model and create more advanced ones. It is possible to catch up and overtake BOEING or AIRBUS only on domestic aircraft. There are no other options. Everyone already knows what sanctions are.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Zaurbek

So, off the top of my head, stop withdrawing funds to offshore companies... and redistribute profits between the store and production back...

It is unlikely that a plant director can do this.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Alexey RA

Maybe it’s worth changing something in the state management of your own property?

Why do they need it?

[KosR]

I don’t understand why all this sheet? The bottom line: the IL-86/96 was originally built for 4 engines and was never designed for 2, the aim was to compete with the 747, as a result, the 90s did not allow it to become competitive, now this aircraft will no longer be able to compete with its Western counterparts, which is why they no, but this does not make it a bad plane and in the current conditions it will become a good plug for an empty niche. Naturally, it is necessary to start developing an analogue of the 777 if we do not want to lag behind in the future.

[Vasily I]

Roman, you amaze me with your amazing disregard for detail (this is typical for journalists, but for some reason it seems to me that you did not start out as a journalist).
What's the biggest problem we have for "Chu-chee" passenger jets?
No, these are not engines, as it might seem.
The impossibility of obtaining a type certificate under the AP-21 procedure, not someday, but in the near future. Basically.
Why?
Because no one is interested in this.
Because it is written in our Air Code that certification is carried out on a REFUNDABLE basis (I translate - the Regulator is interested in the Developer tinkering with the evidence base for as long as possible).
So. For example, we basically do not have materials that meet ICAO requirements in terms of fire safety and fire resistance, which could be used for finishing the passenger compartment and cockpit, for the manufacture of passenger seats, luggage racks, lamps and everything else.
But this is half the trouble. To obtain a certificate for a material, you must obtain the appropriate certificate for the laboratory that will conduct the research.
Guess?
Yes, no such thing. Just as there is no laboratory for certification of aircraft tires and wheels. And household equipment (boilers, refrigerators, coffee makers, etc.).
So, for now, there will be no import-substituted (not partially, but in general) SuperJets with MS-21. And 96-400M will go on line only by direct decision of the Government.

[S.Z.]

Quote: VasilyI

And household equipment (boilers, refrigerators, coffee makers, etc.).

And a mobile phone.

[Vasily I]

With all due respect, as far as I know, a mobile phone is not included in the on-board equipment of any type of passenger aircraft in the world.

[Victor Soldatov]

Alexander Lebedeva is now the owner of the British newspapers The Independent and Evening Standard. It would be interesting to hear his story about Ilyushin Finance Co. (IFK). I wonder who now runs the Ilyushin company and the management bodies’ vision for the future. state participation in the development specifically here in the aircraft industry. I’m glad for the millers and turners, although robots work on Boeing, even as painters. But without engineers and designers, all this is an imitation of activity and useless, except for management, budget development.

[Vasily I]

In fact, IFC PJSC Il has never managed. IFC is a leasing company. And she was more involved with VASO (in particular, she was involved in the sales of An-148/158, Il-96 with residual life), and she was also involved in SuperJet, quite successfully for her manager)))

[sevryuk]

What about polymers, Roma?

[Northern Mage]

The article is absolutely objective. Calculations and numbers too.
Single copies are not mass production.
And with engineers and workers it’s just a disaster.
An airplane is not a screwdriver. And not even a microwave oven. Its assembly is a jeweler's work.
It is a fact that since 1992 we have lost our aviation. Buying overseas. And thereby paying salaries to Johns and Marcels. Not not our Ivans and Andreys.
The result is degradation.

[Escariot]

Quote: Northern Mage

The article is absolutely objective. Calculations and numbers too.
Single copies are not mass production.
And with engineers and workers it’s just a disaster.
An airplane is not a screwdriver. And not even a microwave oven. Its assembly is a jeweler's work.
It is a fact that since 1992 we have lost our aviation. Buying overseas. And thereby paying salaries to Johns and Marcels. Not not our Ivans and Andreys.
The result is degradation.

Then end consumers were given a choice: buy used overseas or take their own domestic one. And the buyers made their choice. Those bastards. You cannot trust the final buyer with the right to choose in such matters.

[Evlokh]

The idea of ​​wing lift has become obsolete! We need a fundamentally new approach to overcoming the force of gravity, a universal one!!! Can aeronautics be remembered as an idea?!!!

[Glagol1]

Il-96-400M is a competitive airliner. At one time, the brilliant designers of Ila laid down enormous potential. Just like Boeing did with its 737-100 in 1967.
Fuel consumption is expected to be 22 - 23 psg/km, the cost of the car is up to 10 billion rubles (110 million dollars), the range is 8100-8400 km, the life cycle is 25 years, up to 400 passengers. This liner is needed. Any non-stop routes within Russia and all neighboring countries, with one stop in Central and South America, South Africa and Southeast Asia. Yes, VASO will not assemble more than 2 aircraft per year, but in 25 years - 50 airliners. Not bad. There will also be a Tu-214D with a range of 7 thousand km.
During this time, a new long-range aircraft with two PD-30 or PD-35 for 300-330 passengers will be suitable in the 2030s. Need to do.

[Vlad Gor]

When you have one plane, you have no choice, you either fly that plane or take the cart. To provide Center - Far East per day, you must have at least 20 wide-body aircraft in one direction. What can replace A and B? On these lines there are only Tu-214 and Il-96. The state task should be to provide Russia with its own aircraft, and not to fill the private pocket of the air carrier. In 5 years, A and B will begin to crash.

[wladimirjankov]

[quoteour development specialists are very keen on the project of the Russian-Chinese wide-body aircraft CR-929. Time was lost from 2014 to 2022, spent on participating in a joint project,][/quote]
Works of our specialists on CR-929. could not in any way influence the development of the PD-35 engine. It was financed separately and the work was carried out by people from the UEC who were involved in the CR-929 project. were indirectly related.

[Vlad Gor]

There are a lot of articles and commentary about the IL-96. The problem is not with the plane, but with the comprador authorities of the Russian Federation, which needs A and B, but not domestic planes.
The release of IL-96 is a strategic goal of the Russian Federation and it is not correct to discuss how much kerosene it will consume in comparison with A or B. If you are chasing savings for the sake of the collapse of the development of your aviation, then take a horse, it eats hay and does not need kerosene. It is stupid to compare the IL-96 with aircraft from NATO countries, whether it is good or bad. We have only one IL-96 to discuss. Purchase and leasing of A and B for dollars, maintenance from $100 thousand/year without spare parts is done for dollars, and IL-96 is all in rubles. Everything that is now bought abroad is bought with money for oil, gas, timber, etc., oil prices in the future will never cost $150, so very soon the time will come when there will be nothing to fly to the Russian Federation, no dollars. As everyone says, we have a MARKET, capitalism. In order not to ride on a cart, you need your own plane. We must always remember about NATO sanctions. All NATO aircraft have external control, spare parts, and maintenance, so those aircraft that did not fly to the west will be dismantled for spare parts or rot on the ground. Why do airlines use planes from NATO countries? Look who owns these airlines and where are they registered? Everything is in the West. For example, “Russian Aeroflot”, 51,173% of shares belong to shareholders of the Russian Federation, the rest to foreigners, if you start looking at Russian shareholders, you will see that through third parties, shares of the Russian Federation belong to NATO and so on for all airlines, airports, i.e. they are all foreign. Without government approval, not a single airline will operate a Russian aircraft, even if it is the best in the world in all respects. A and B will not be allowed. The state is obliged to lobby for the interests of the Russian Federation. The Russian government is obliged to subsidize, on domestic flights, tickets for Russian-made aircraft; tickets should cost 30% less than for foreign aircraft. Let the passenger choose which one to fly, Russian or foreign. The number of engines on a plane is not the main thing, the main thing is that the Russian Federation does not have a line of modern engines of its own. The brake in everything is the mafia power.

[Jonny_Su]

Unfortunately, there are no good engines for it, no one wants to make a 2-pilot scheme and bring the airliner to high civilian standards. We could launch the program in 1,5 years, but now all the eggs are put in the PD-14 and PD-35 baskets, and it seems that this must be accepted.
There are a lot of risks, the price tag is high, the deadlines are moving to the right, but the country’s leadership is not ready to distribute the rates between the lines. The experience of IL-112 (114) has not yet taught people.

[Alexey Lantukh]

The experience of IL-112 (114) has not yet taught people

Experience 112 did not teach, but it showed that some of the design competencies have already been lost and this needs to be restored, which cannot be done in a year or two. It's the same in production. There are critical technologies when a 5-6 grade worker leaves and that’s it!!! This process cannot be done by anyone else, at least not quickly enough. You can blame the government as much as you like, but even if it floods the aviation industry with a sea of ​​money, planes will not appear in a flood. Only more money will be stolen. All this will develop long and painfully. Some new Beria could help here, but the time is not the same.

[Reklastik]

But, on the other hand, a mechanical system is the highest reliability, a system that will ensure flight even if all electronics completely fail.

- I would look at this, how the mechanics will ensure the flight of the Il-96 without any electronics and even electromechanics - probably the commander will have the strongest muscles . Well, a fire on board burns out either the mechanics or the electronics.

[dmitryaves]

When will they stop calculating efficiency based on burned fuel?! When will they start calculating the economy of the aircraft as a whole?! This includes science, materials, technology, the social component, transport accessibility of the regions, strategic security, and much more... When, finally, production and operation are united within one state. organization?!

[Victor Popov]

Somehow I didn’t understand the spit in the direction of the SSJ-100 and MS-21. What is this for? Both planes practically fly. They were created on the ruins of the Soviet aircraft industry and naturally problems and shortcomings were revealed. But the planes already exist, and they work. I agree with the author regarding various distortions, technical, technological and organizational. Correctly assessing your strengths and capabilities, choosing a real and promising path for the largely reviving Russian aircraft industry means a lot. But the pessimism prominent in the article is completely inappropriate.

[Escariot]

Quote: Victor Popov

Somehow I didn’t understand the spit in the direction of the SSJ-100 and MS-21. What is this for? Both planes practically fly. They were created on the ruins of the Soviet aircraft industry and naturally problems and shortcomings were revealed. But the planes already exist, and they work. I agree with the author regarding various distortions, technical, technological and organizational. Correctly assessing your strengths and capabilities, choosing a real and promising path for the largely reviving Russian aircraft industry means a lot. But the pessimism prominent in the article is completely inappropriate.

How many flights does Sukhoi fly per day? There was information that on average he spends 4 hours a day in the air.

[boris]

To the question about engines and their quantity. Heavy long-haul
the plane must be four-engine. Without any complicated reasoning
It is clear that it will have greater reliability compared to a twin-engine one.
Accordingly, it will ensure greater flight safety. And this is very
great competitive advantage! Still a passenger plane
transports people, not firewood. As for efficiency. You have to count
in total, and not just fuel consumption. Western-made aircraft
much (very much) more expensive than Soviet/Russian ones. Their operation is more expensive.
So their cost-effectiveness is largely a myth. Besides, no one
prohibits the improvement of existing PS-90s during operation
gradually replace them with already produced aircraft. It's not very easy
but probably.

[Negro]

Quote: borys

A heavy long-haul aircraft must be four-engine

The entire detachment is out of step, Comrade Sergeant is in step.

The curiosity under discussion corresponds in range to the A321XLR. Airbus has a 2 times smaller cabin, but at the same time it is 3 times lighter, so that per passenger there is 1,5 times less take-off weight. And this is still an Airbus of the 320 family with all the ensuing advantages, and not some white elephant that exists in 1,5 copies.

For long-distance flights by today's standards, the Il-96 is not long enough. All big Boeings and all big Airbuses fly stupidly twice as far.

[Kmon]

Quote from Escariot

You cannot trust the final buyer with the right to choose in such matters.

Exactly. The USSR was not trusted. Even though the planes produced were not as economical as Western ones, they were more reliable and widespread (when compared with all but the USA).

[Sergei Timofeich]

I will say this, for the survival of our industry there are catastrophically few of us. Everything that we produce for ourselves without export will be unprofitable. We see this in the example of fuel, without export we would refuel our cars at European prices. In the USSR, everything belonged to the state and no one was chasing profit, no one was counting money and all free assets were poured into the national economy... and there were about 270 of us, this is also not enough, but for a planned economy it was the norm..

[esl462]

Commentators are fed up with kerosene consumption. What about leasing payments? What about the crew's salaries? What about airport services? Compared to the 767 Bobik, the 96 loses 5-6% of the operating cost in fuel costs. Are these really the numbers that make you tear your ass out?

[Escariot]

Quote from esl462

Commentators are fed up with kerosene consumption. What about leasing payments? What about the crew's salaries? What about airport services? Compared to the 767 Bobik, the 96 loses 5-6% of the operating cost in fuel costs. Are these really the numbers that make you tear your ass out?

Right. In addition to increased fuel costs, there is also flight time per day. The well-functioning work of engineers and personnel allows the aircraft to be kept in the air for 12 or more hours a day. How much flying time 96 will have - only God knows.

[AC130 Gunship]

Using the example of the operation of the Il96 in the 90s, it definitely won’t be that much. For comparison, the average B787 flies for 8-10 hours, stops for 2.5 - 3 hours and takes off again

[AC130 Gunship]

What are you comparing with old stuff? The same age Il96 - B767 - has already been practically removed from the lines of the main carriers and is being transferred en masse to the cargo fleet. Low-cost airlines are still operating. But today the IL96-400 is presented as a NEW car!!! Then it needs to be compared with the A350 or 787-900

[esl462]

The 96 is a contemporary of the 767, that’s why I’m comparing it. Have you seen the price of 787? 3.5 times more expensive than 96. And leasing payments make up almost half of the operating cost. That’s why they have to hang in the air 12 hours a day to fight them off.

[new.ad]

What do you want when the country is run by American henchmen? Be glad that cyanide is not being poured into the water supply yet.
Those responsible for this whole bacchanalia recently destroyed 65 TB of information from Rosaviatsia. The culprits are in Israel, the USA, Britain, primarily in these countries. And here six of them are just running around, asking that the country not be closed, they say it’s easier for them to go to their owners.

[75 Sergey]

The plant needs to be given a kick - to be provided with orders; only mass production will help raise wages and reduce costs.
Prodovanov can be kicked without regret, just like optimizers.

[Max1984]

Still have one more small question? and where to fly on it? to Europe and the USA with Canada and several dozen other countries, the path is closed and it is not known when it will open, to China? but they have their own planes and it’s unlikely that they will let ours in, of course they won’t directly ban them, but they will create such conditions that it will be more profitable to fly in Chinese, to Africa and Latin America, well, let’s say not directly highly sought-after destinations, in Russia? it is more profitable to fly on narrow-body medium-haul routes such as MS-21, and in general it is necessary to develop high-speed railways within the country; they are more environmentally friendly and economical and at distances of up to 1000 km they are not inferior in speed to transportation by airplanes, taking into account the fact that the boarding and waiting procedure on airplanes is not very fast departures, plus there are also airfields outside the city and railway stations, as a rule, are in the center of cities...

[Negro]

Quote: Max1984

develop high-speed railways; they are more environmentally friendly and economical and are not inferior at distances of up to 1000 km

Khe khe.

Rails for Sapsan came from Austria and Japan. Moreover, the peregrine falcon is not even a real Eastern Railway. So it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines.

[Foxmara]

We have a huge territory. Firstly, the railway will not solve everything, and secondly, you can’t run a rail from St. Petersburg to Moscow time. Although the thought is correct - so be it. However, our own market is enough for us to work, and for watermelons and Boeing we need to create the same irreconcilable conditions - but not before it becomes profitable for us.

[faiver]

and where to fly on it?

- Irkutsk, Khabarovsk, Vladivostok, Nakhodka, Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Magadan, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, Anadyr, Pevek, Yakutsk, Mirny. Here is an order for at least 30-35 aircraft within the country

[Foxmara]

The one who hinders us will help us. We were forbidden to supply spare parts for watermelons and Boeings, now without options we will have to do our own. Start and don't stop. China once assembled someone else's automobile industry, and look how far they ran. And, by the way, they still lag behind us in engine building. incl. Let's not hang out. Out of habit, the novel caught up with fears, but... The one who is afraid to take a step forward fails.

[viktor_ui]

I was in Irkutsk a month ago for the 70th anniversary of IVATU...or rather, I looked at what was left of it. I was on the outskirts of the airport, where there was an exhibition of aircraft of different generations - in general, a difficult spectacle of dirty, dusty and disassembled aircraft from the wonderful country of the USSR, except for the Yak-130 with a bent fuselage as a result of a hard landing (the crew is normal). I talked with the teaching and flight staff and realized for myself that the broken structure is still ALIVE in spite of everything. Hope dies last . Roman RESPECT for the review.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Aerodrome

according to the auto industry, here.. a "Muscovite" has appeared... what a shame... it's a shame... it's a Spanish shame. After all, to be honest: "Beijing" is better suited.

:) :) :)
But you don’t want to call Zhiguli Apennines :)

[Kmon]

Um, what taxes and competitive advantages? Western companies have left our market, most likely forever.

[AC130 Gunship]

In general, I agree with the article. There are some inaccuracies. The Americans have never been afraid of the appearance of the Il96M with American engines on their market. Simply because no one ever intended to sell them to Russia. They gave 4 pieces for 1 plane TEMPORARILY and with a refund, just try it. We tried it, it worked, we liked it. That was the end of it. The times when the West actually bought Soviet aircraft for foreign currency ended with the Yak40. And even then these were piece deliveries

[Magician Goodwin]

The author sees to the very root. Personnel and their training is one of the main problems. Moreover, this applies not only to aviation or shipbuilding, or any other industry. This applies to everything. Except for all the stupid management. Yesterday's schoolchildren strive to sell something or manage something. And there are practically no people who want to become an engineer, technologist, or chemist. In the 90s, almost everything was forgotten

[Spaceman111]

I started writing, and then I erased everything. I’ll leave just an example from life: an aircraft instrument-making plant, in which out of all the workshops only one performs the assigned tasks, and of course, it is called advanced and all that, and the head of the workshop is not deprived (I was in the design bureau then and communicated directly with this workshop). The rest were essentially “serving their number” under pressure. But unfortunately, this workshop manager passed away, had a stroke and that was it. No - EVERYTHING, the plant essentially stopped, the workshop is failing in terms of products, defects are growing. Fortunately, I didn’t see the end of this story - I left, but I watched what was happening for some time, the director of the plant got out of the rest room in the plant administration with a sauna and a swimming pool and ran around the plant, raising a plan. But this is so, a sketch about the role of the individual in history, and personnel in the enterprise. We understand that this cannot happen here in Russia, so my story is exclusively about the plant in Laos.

[Tapac_B]

In today's conditions, trying to produce aircraft in Voronezh is naive. The main purpose of arrivals will be from Kharkov. Production must be created beyond the Urals.

[AlexWar]

All research institutes must be involved in the work; there are brains in the country. So that students can be selected from all over the country.

[Andrey A]

Is everything really so bleak with VASO’s capabilities to produce the Il-96-400, as the author believes? At its maximum, VASO produced 3 Il-96s per year (1994), but then other aircraft were also produced (IL-86, for example), and even later, in 2011, 2013, 2015, one Il-96 was produced, but An-148 was also produced (up to 5 units per year). Ultimately, it all comes down to funding, priorities and feasibility: if there is funding, there will be planes. And you need to understand that this is not that much money: over the years of reforms, many hundreds of billions of dollars were taken out of the country, incl. and state ones, the very ones that the West is now trying to confiscate. Well, and of course, the PS-90A-3 develops a maximum thrust of 17 kgf, and not 500 kgf.

[Olegi1]

About 15 years ago I took part in a preliminary conversation about modernizing the AN-148 avionics with the Honeywell complex. We were told that they would accept it if the order was from 200 boards, otherwise it would not be economically viable. So consider it.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Max1984

Still have one more small question? and where to fly on it?

I looked at the map of Russia. There are places to fly on it.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Kmon

Western companies have left our market, most likely forever.

"Forever" is not that long.

[S.Z.]

Quote: Tapac_B

In today's conditions, trying to produce aircraft in Voronezh is naive. The main purpose of arrivals will be from Kharkov.

Stop croaking, we still have to live here.

[storm]

Reasonings from the series
I have the opportunity to buy a “goat” with PS-90A,
but I want to buy a horse with PD-35, but I don’t have the opportunity....
The logic of the UAC is simply amazing, order 70 units. really outdated Tu-214 is normal, but for some reason it’s not right to build the Il-96-400 series with PS-90A...

There is an elementary struggle between clans for financial flows; if we start to revive the production of Il-96-400 in Voronezh, then the Kazan “brothers” will definitely have their financial wishes cut off....
Unfortunately Voronezh. VAKO is hopelessly losing in this “war” of officials for money....

[Desperado]

The logic of the UAC is just clear: there is no point in building 96s on old engines for which there is neither demand, nor specialists and capacity for their construction. As for the Tu-214, this is the only aircraft that in the near foreseeable future will be able to “partially” replace the fleet of “foreigners” that are already beginning to be laid up. Again, the Il-38 needs to be replaced, which means the Tu-204P will be needed.

[AlexWar]

The only problem is with the engines, let foreigners disassemble and copy them. China lives like this, copies everything. Maybe the development of engines can be transferred to a research institute, if you look at what nonsense in our country they just don’t program, then maybe people can be directed in the right direction. If we want to produce something and the state is ready to pay, then everyone needs to be involved.
In our country, if you gather all the brains, the result will be, believe me. There are a lot of talented people in our country. Just look at all the different nonsense they come up with. Such as development trainings, all sorts of production control programs
We don't have much left, big projects need people, and they need to be paid money.
Our new planes will still be safer

[av58]

Skomorokhov is in your repertoire, you no longer know whether to laugh or cry. There is no plane - it’s bad, there is a plane - even worse: there is nowhere to build, and no one to build.
Further: "...You can, of course, talk about breakthroughs and victories, but in fact, the Il-96-400M is just a modified Il-96-300, which has been flying since 1988..." But nothing that the B737 has been produced since 1967??? Now modifications of it fly, or is it OK for Americans? They are Americans, that is. "Well, you stupid ones!" )))))
Further: “...MS-21 and Sukhoi Superjet, to put it mildly, do not live up to the hopes placed on them...” This statement is a bit strange even for Skomorokhov. The Sukhoi Superjet is a machine, to put it mildly, for other tasks, even taking into account the availability of the next generation of aircraft (after “import substitution”), but can anyone clearly explain what the MS-21 has done wrong. Wasn’t it on the lines yet, or did I miss something? )))))
Taking into account the routine attacks against Chemezov (here you don’t need to have any intelligence or imagination at all, Chemezov substitutes himself extremely skillfully and regularly), all that remains is: 1) to be surprised that Skomorokhov did not mention the head of the UAC aviation cluster Serdyukov-Taburetkin, and 2) assume that Skomorokhov is applying for a high position in the Ministry of Transport (related to aviation), or in the Ministry of Defense and/or the Ministry of Economy/UAC/Rostec on the same topic. Skomorokhov knows exactly what aircraft Russia needs, how to design and produce it.
Russia is rich in talents!

[nico49]

Why did the author add about “the whole world will be wiped out”?

[storm]

It was much smarter to allocate billions of rubles to organize serial production of the Il-96-400 in Voronezh, and not to the Tu-214, which in fact is not a very successful “understudy” for the more modern and promising MS-21, which will go into production this year .

Where is the logic, Mr. Chemezov?

Two projects are entering the serial production stage:
1. Short-haul Jet-100 with domestic PD-8.
2. Medium-range MS-21 with PD-14
And it would seem the most logical thing to invest in serial production in Voronezh of the long-range Il-96-400 for which the PD-35 is being developed, but for now there is the industrially mastered PS-90A.

[storm]

Will Russia have a long-haul aircraft or will satisfying the financial requests of the Kazan diaspora in the Russian Government be much more important for Rostec???