Armor of 1944: what Soviet engineers could have borrowed abroad

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Armor of 1944: what Soviet engineers could have borrowed abroad
British "Matilda" in the USSR


Topic No. 8


The key organization involved in domestic armor during the war of 1941–1945 is considered to be the “Armor Institute” or NII-48. Now it is known under the name of the Central Research Institute of CM "Prometheus" and is part of the Kurchatov Institute.



The famous institute was born in 1936 and at first it was a small armor laboratory at the Izhora plant. During and before the war, under the leadership of Andrei Zavyalov, unique samples were created tank armor, without which victory would have been impossible. We are talking about a high-hardness grade of armor 8C for the T-34 and medium hardness 42C for heavy KVs.

History The “cooking” of tank armor is multifaceted and has not yet been completely declassified. Piece by piece we have to piece together a picture of the events that took place several decades ago, which laid the foundation for the current state of affairs. One of the important sources is archival reports that have recently undergone the declassification procedure.


Unique of these invaluable sources of information was a brief technical report on topic No. 8 with a long title “Transferring foreign experience into the technology of armor and armored hulls based on the study of foreign tanks and materials on their manufacturing technology.” This analytical review dates back to 1944, and it was intended to select the best that could be used in Soviet tanks. The work was carried out by specialists from the Moscow branch of NII-48 mentioned above. As the authors themselves wrote,

“in this work, the goal was to highlight not only the new research results obtained, but also to summarize all the available disparate materials on foreign vehicles, generalize and analyze them, and draw certain conclusions and proposals for our tank industry.”




"Matilda" undergoing winter testing in the Soviet Union

Of course, the experience of studying the armor of not only German tanks, but also the allies who supplied equipment to the USSR under Lend-Lease was generalized.

The first in line were three British tanks - Matilda, Valentine and Churchill. To be fair, Soviet engineers fell into the hands of outdated armored vehicles, which very indirectly reflect the technological level of British tank building in 1944. Soviet engineers did not find anything outstanding in foreign cars. But there were plenty of shortcomings.

It is rightly pointed out that there was a small proportion of welded joints - individual elements of armored hulls were connected by riveting, bolted joints and goujons (a type of screw with a semi-countersunk or semi-circular head and a square above the head, which is removed after assembly). The chemical composition of the armor of all three tanks turned out to be similar and belonged to the chromium-nickel-molybdenum class. It was homogeneous armor of medium hardness.

It is unknown whether the researchers shared their results with the British (most likely not), but the report points to the unreasonably high nickel content in the armor of the Valentine and Churchill.

It is interesting that the chemical composition of the armor of the heavy British tank was very similar to the domestic naval armor of the FD7924 brand. The conclusion was simple:

“Neither from the point of view of the method of connecting hull parts, nor from the point of view of the armor grades of steel and type of armor used, English tanks are of great interest and do not allow us to extract anything useful from them for our domestic tank building.”

Americans and Germans under a magnifying glass


American tanks were next in line.

In 1944, three vehicles were also examined: the M3 Stuart, the M3 Lee, and the M4A2 Sherman. The first was referred to in the report as mild M3, and the second as medium M3. The Stuart had mostly rolled armor, while the medium tanks had rolled and cast armor. The report pays special respect to the Sherman, indicating the high technical level of the design and manufacture of the tank. In comparison with “Stuart” and “Lee”, of course.


Manufacturers of armor for American tanks made steel from whatever they needed. The main thing is that the parameters of the armor steel do not suffer.

As the report showed, the Americans were slightly better at welding armor than the British. For example, for the light M3, both homogeneous and heterogeneous armor with a cemented layer were used. The Americans saturated the surface layer of the armor with carbon to a depth of at least 4,5–5,5 mm.

An important difference from British tanks was the wide variety of chemical composition of the armor of US medium tanks. The authors from NII-48 explained this for the following reasons.

First, the Americans learned how to build their own armored vehicles not long ago and have not yet developed uniform standards.

Secondly, armor manufacturers in America could, in theory, weld any steel as long as it met the technical specifications. For example, the Sherman is given, for which the armor was made at least in five factories. Ford did not add nickel to the composition at all, while the share of this alloying element in Henry Disston Steel and Republic Steel could be as high as 3,75 percent. At the Illinois Steel plant, among other things, they did without chromium in their armor - other manufacturers could not afford this.

In general, make armor from whatever you want, but it must produce the required parameters in any case.




The armor of German tanks attracted much more interest from NII-48 employees

The findings on American cars are somewhat more interesting than similar British ones.

Engineers note a gradual transition in hull assembly from riveting and bolting to welding. "Sherman" in this sense differs in a positive way. We noticed a gradual transition to cast parts and even assemblies, which in the near future will become a characteristic feature of American tanks. There has also been a trend in the use of alloying additives - from Stuart to Sherman, the proportion of nickel, chromium and molybdenum is decreasing. The Americans probably experienced a shortage of these metals by the end of the war.

In terms of armor hardness, the conclusion of domestic engineers turned out to be common for both tanks from America and Great Britain. The choice of medium-hard armor at thicknesses of 30–50 mm is unjustified from the point of view of armor resistance and is explained by the desire to simplify the technology. Medium-hard armor is most acceptable for mass production.

It is worth making a separate reservation - Soviet engineers did not work with the most modern technology for 8 within the framework of topic No. 1944. There was a war going on, and it was necessary to explore what captured teams and Lend-Lease supplies offered. Neither one nor the other could supply the latest versions of combat vehicles. At the same time, this does not in any way detract from the importance of the analytical report of NII-48 specialists.

It was more difficult to work with German tanks.

Firstly, there were more fascist armored vehicles - T-II, T-III, T-IV, TV, T-VI tanks, Artshturm and Ferdinand self-propelled guns.

Secondly, the Germans' armor evolved rapidly, and there was really a lot to learn here. More precisely, pay attention, unlike the Allied tanks.

But first, the characteristic features of Teutonic armor.

By 1944, the problem with alloying elements was quite acute in Germany. The younger the tank was, the less molybdenum and chromium were found in its armor, and, on the contrary, the more manganese and nickel.

All German tanks were distinguished by a high carbon content in their armor - up to 0,34–0,56 percent. A design feature of all German tanks was the unequal strength of the hull protection - more powerful armor in the frontal part in comparison with other projections. For the "Tiger" and "Ferdinand" the ratio between the thickness of the frontal parts and the side parts was approximately 2:1, which impressed Soviet designers. Quote from the report:

“High carbon content with a simultaneous increased content of carbide-forming elements in steel makes it possible to obtain armor of high and increased hardness in a highly tempered state, which is not prone to the formation of cracks during welding and their development over time, due to the absence of quenching stresses in it.”

Why is this fact so important?

The fact is that domestic technologies spent almost the entire war fighting cracks in the welded joints of the T-34 hard armor. It was not possible to get rid of the disease everywhere and not always. The Germans' technology made it possible to avoid such defects. But the main feature of German armor was its heterogeneity - a fact that Soviet engineers considered the most important.

Final quote from the report:

“What is fundamentally new in this work is the establishment of the fact that the Germans used heterogeneous rolled armor quite widely. The armor grades of steel with a high carbon content adopted by the Germans allowed them to easily make the transition in production to this new type of armor.

It is well known that heterogeneous armor (hard face layer and soft cushion), when tested with sharp-headed projectiles and armor-piercing bullets, the caliber of which is smaller or close to the thickness of the armor, has higher resistance. Considering that modern armies widely use sharp-headed projectiles and anti-tank armor-piercing bullets, the fact that the Germans used heterogeneous armor deserves attention.

In light of the above, it is advisable to discuss the possibility of organizing in our country the production of heterogeneous heavy tank armor, one-sidedly hardened with the help of high-frequency currents.”
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  1. -11
    10 November 2023 06: 46
    Technological superiority is obvious: high carbon content, but the armor is welded satisfactorily; high and ultra-high hardness, but no cracks.
    The USSR, throughout the war, drove economical armor, with a minimum of alloying additives. However, since 43, even full-fledged alloying additives could not help the T-34, because it became a tank without armor, due to its small thickness.
    1. -3
      10 November 2023 08: 50
      The entire German tank fleet was “without armor,” with the exception of both “Tigers.”
      And the “Royal”, upon its first appearance on the Eastern Front, was successfully dismantled for parts by a “haystack” with an 85-mm caliber.
      1. +12
        10 November 2023 09: 36
        [/quote]The entire German tank fleet was “without armor,” with the exception of both “Tigers.”[quote]

        Wrong. In 43, the enemy had one fully and 2 partially protected tanks (the entire front of the Panther and the front of the Pz.4 hull). The USSR has zero. And full. KV and T-34 - were completely “transparent” to the main tank and anti-tank guns of the GG, at the main battle distances.
        1. +5
          10 November 2023 10: 22
          Quote: Jura 27
          In 43, the enemy had one fully and 2 partially protected tanks (the entire front of the Panther and the front of the Pz.4 hull).

          Fortunately, after 1943 came 1944. When the Germans began to have problems with additives for armor (especially after Turkey and its chromium dropped out of suppliers in April 1944), and with the armor itself, too. Somewhere there was data on captured “Panthers” from the second half of 1944 with sides made of structural steel.
          1. +3
            10 November 2023 16: 56
            [/quote]Fortunately, 1943 came after 1944[quote]

            More precisely, the second half of 44, when strangulation entered its terminal stage.
          2. +1
            10 November 2023 20: 10
            Fortunately, after 1943 came 1944. When the Germans began to have problems with additives for armor (especially after Turkey and its chromium dropped out of suppliers in April 1944), and with the armor itself, too.
            Problems began with the liberation of Nikopol by the Red Army (Nikopol-Krivoy Rog offensive operation from January 30 to February 29, 1944).
        2. +8
          10 November 2023 12: 05
          In 1943, all Allied tanks were completely 0 with tanks capable of facing the Panther and Tiger head-on.
          “Churchill” could “butt heads” with anti-tank guns, the only question is the model of that gun!
          The Teutons had a huge variety of anti-tank guns.
          1. +4
            10 November 2023 16: 13
            Aht-aht beat everyone, a nightmare for any tanker
            1. Alf
              +3
              10 November 2023 21: 45
              Quote: novel xnumx
              Aht-aht beat everyone, a nightmare for any tanker

              Except IS-2 model 44.
          2. Alf
            +3
            10 November 2023 21: 44
            Quote: hohol95
            The Teutons had a huge variety of anti-tank guns.

            50, 75, 88 is not much. We seem to have no less - 45, 57, 76.
            1. 0
              10 December 2023 13: 35
              The Germans also had 37 and 45 mm. And at the end of the war and 100 mm anti-tank guns
              1. Alf
                0
                10 December 2023 15: 41
                Quote: stankow
                And at the end of the war and 100 mm anti-tank guns

                The Germans? Can I find out the model of the gun?
                1. +1
                  10 December 2023 15: 49
                  Oops, there was a mistake, thanks for pointing it out. PaK 44 L/55 - 128 mm
                  1. Alf
                    0
                    10 December 2023 17: 14
                    Quote: stankow
                    Oops, there was a mistake, thanks for pointing it out. PaK 44 L/55 - 128 mm

                    Oh, I’m about to shuffle my foot, I feel so embarrassed... feel I also often make mistakes. But I’ll correct something here. The 12,8 is, of course, very powerful, but its mobility...
                    1. 0
                      11 December 2023 12: 45
                      Well, I’m not talking about the quality of the guns, I just added to their list. And the Germans had a hard time with the nomenclature of shells.
        3. +2
          10 November 2023 15: 20
          Our tanks in the first half of the war were still not transparent to German guns - the armor sheets located at an angle led to the ricochet of even the vaunted blunt-headed shells, but in 44 everything changed dramatically - and the armor became thicker and the guns more powerful. But the Germans, due to a lack of alloying elements, stupidly increased the percentage of carbon in the armor, which immediately led to cracks and penetrations even from traditional sharp-headed shells.
      2. Alf
        +4
        10 November 2023 21: 42
        Quote: Jager
        And the “Royal”, upon its first appearance on the Eastern Front, was successfully dismantled for parts by a “haystack” with an 85-mm caliber.

        Yes, yes, shooting point-blank at the side... If Oskin heard the Germans talking...
    2. -8
      10 November 2023 09: 00
      You might think that the American M4 Sherman Zippo lighters were tanks with armor in 1943.
      Just like the British Crusaders.
      1. +10
        10 November 2023 10: 35
        There is Loza’s memoir, “Tankman on a Foreign Car,” and he generally has a very good opinion of Sherman.
        1. +5
          10 November 2023 11: 54
          Loza assessed the Sherman as the totality of all mechanisms and parts.
          And not just frontal armor!
    3. +9
      10 November 2023 12: 06
      Quote: Jura 27
      even full-fledged alloying additives could not help the T-34, because he became a tank without armor, due to its small thickness.

      The article is generally about the quality of the armor, and not about its thickness. Here the claims seem to be in the wrong place, as if you are confusing soft with warm.
      1. +2
        10 November 2023 16: 16
        That's crazy! Everyone admits that the quality of the Germans’ armor was steadily declining, and even thickening did not help
        Kolya hi
        1. TIR
          0
          26 December 2023 09: 15
          The thickening of the armor on the Tiger 2 was precisely the result of a shortage of additives in the steel, and not an increase in the penetration of Soviet anti-tank missiles. I don't take Americans into account. VET there was generally backward. The same Tiger 1 coped quite well, but for it it was already difficult to roll armor of the required quality. If the Germans had relied on the Panther and the T-4, we would have had a hard time. In general, I consider the Panther’s gun to be the best in accuracy and penetration. We only reached the level of the Germans on Rapier
      2. -1
        10 November 2023 16: 58
        [/quote]The article is generally about the quality of the armor, and not about its thickness.[quote]

        So there was no quality, no thickness that could compensate for the quality.
    4. 0
      10 November 2023 13: 47
      Are you seriously? Do you really think that high carbon armor is good? Germany did not have any superiority in armor, and the quality gradually decreased.
      1. -1
        10 November 2023 17: 03
        [/quote]Are you serious? Do you really think that high carbon armor is good? [quote]

        It's not just good, it's excellent! Provided that the armor is welded properly and does not crack.
        And the superiority was complete, over Sovekonombrony, as long as there was access to alloying additives. This is what is written in the document.
        1. TIR
          +2
          22 December 2023 01: 58
          By the way, for the release of the T-34-85, ours learned how to weld its armor. The seams no longer cracked. Even if there was a hit with a seam nearby. All the same, Paton came up with his welding machines at the right time. Wouldn't we have exported the production of tanks with manual electric arc welding?
  2. +1
    10 November 2023 07: 05
    Japanese, Italian, Czech, apparently, are generally outsiders.
    1. +2
      10 November 2023 16: 20
      About Karius's Czech one, he lost his teeth because of it
    2. Alf
      +3
      10 November 2023 21: 53
      Quote: AlexisT
      Japanese, Italian, Czech, apparently, are generally outsiders.

      What, did Japanese tanks have armor? (Sarcasm)

      IS THIS armor?
  3. 0
    10 November 2023 09: 38
    Quote: hohol95
    You might think that the American M4 Sherman Zippo lighters were tanks with armor in 1943.
    Just like the British Crusaders.

    So this is bad, not good, Soviet tank crews also had to fight on L-L tanks.
    1. +7
      10 November 2023 11: 57
      "Crusaders" were not supplied to the USSR.
      Only “infantry tanks” and a single batch of used “Tetrarchs”.
      "Valentines", unlike the "Crusaders", were in demand in the Red Army and were ordered until 1944.
    2. +1
      10 November 2023 16: 22
      You might think T-60; and the T-70 were better armored
      1. +4
        10 November 2023 17: 16
        And Pz.II, M 3 "Stuart", 38M "Toldi", L6/40?
      2. TIR
        -1
        22 December 2023 02: 03
        These were wedges in their essence. Moreover, they didn’t really look at the quality of the armor. If you think that in the first half of the war the entire burden of the offensive fell on tanks, then you are deeply mistaken. The infantry divisions bore the brunt. It is also a deep misconception that the Germans carried artillery with tractors. Horse-drawn in bulk pulled everything
  4. 0
    10 November 2023 09: 39
    Quote: AlexisT
    Japanese, Italian, Czech, apparently, are generally outsiders.

    Without a doubt. Only they didn’t have to fight Germany.
  5. +1
    10 November 2023 10: 24
    Quote: Jura 27
    Technological superiority is evident:


    yes, the ideas of the “gloomy genius” gave a huge impetus to development after the war
  6. +7
    10 November 2023 10: 31
    An important difference from British tanks was the wide variety of chemical composition of the armor of US medium tanks.

    The Germans had the same problem in the second half of the war. The Americans and the British studied two captured Panthers - the English copy had no nickel in its armor and virtually no molybdenum, while the American one had them.
    In general, the same standardization is based on mechanical properties, and not chemical composition.
  7. +11
    10 November 2023 10: 34
    First, the Americans learned how to build their own armored vehicles not long ago and have not yet developed uniform standards.

    In reality, the Americans experienced problems with the quality of tank armor throughout the war, just like all other countries that produced tanks. Moreover, armor was often produced at enterprises that had no idea about such production before the war. For example, the plant Henry Disston and Sons, Inc, mentioned in the article, built armor steel for tanks in 1940 under a contract with the Ministry of Defense. Before this, the plant produced saws.
    In some cases, armor plates were produced in one plant and heat treated in another.
    For example, Great Lakes Steel Corporation produced rolled steel, which was heat treated by Standard Steel Spring Company. As a result, control tests of this steel in June 1945 showed very low quality.
    As the Americans themselves pointed out in a post-war report compiled by Watertown Arsenal, it was only towards the end of 1943 that experts finally decided what characteristics tank armor should have. And work on how to achieve these characteristics in production continued until the end of the war.
  8. +2
    10 November 2023 13: 30
    Quote: Jura 27
    Technological superiority is evident

    Technological superiority and tactical lag. The concept of a tank - a tank destroyer is an unconditional defeat of German designers - an analogue of the unconditional surrender of the Wehrmacht.
    Check out their Panther. This is a dream target for Soviet artillery with its large size, 40 mm of side armor and 20 mm of bottom and top. Or heavy tanks above 55 tons, similar in cross-country ability and mobility to a self-propelled bunker.
    Add an abundance of armor-piercing shells - a gift for the Soviet infantry and artillery.
    1. +1
      10 November 2023 16: 29
      In fact, our armor-piercing shells were not so hot, there is a GABTU report, and our 85 mm turned out to be worse in penetration than the American 75 mm.
      1. 0
        13 November 2023 11: 32
        Quote: novel xnumx
        In fact, our armor-piercing shells were not so hot, there is a GABTU report, and our 85 mm turned out to be worse in penetration than the American 75 mm.

        A bit wrong.
        The domestic 76-mm (F-34) was worse in armor penetration than the American 75-mm, although the roots of the two guns were the same, French.
        And our 85 mm was better in armor penetration than the American 75 mm, but worse than the American 76 mm.
    2. Alf
      +2
      10 November 2023 22: 01
      Quote: Kostadinov
      This is a dream target for Soviet artillery with its large size, 40 mm of side armor and 20 mm of bottom and top.

      Artillery does not fire at the roof or bottom. 40mm you say? What about an 80mm forehead and a 100mm turret? Dream ?
      1. +3
        13 November 2023 11: 30
        Quote: Alf
        Artillery does not fire at the roof or bottom. 40mm you say? What about an 80mm forehead and a 100mm turret? Dream ?

        Shooting at the frontal projection of a tank, and even from a direct shot range - these are the instructions of the VET of 1941-1942. In 1943, fortunately, this practice began to be curtailed and switched to flank fire and fire bags. Shooting to the forehead was allowed only for “flirting” guns.
  9. +3
    10 November 2023 13: 51
    Quote: Jura 27
    Technological superiority is obvious: high carbon content, but the armor is welded satisfactorily; high and ultra-high hardness, but no cracks.
    The USSR, throughout the war, drove economical armor, with a minimum of alloying additives. However, since 43, even full-fledged alloying additives could not help the T-34, because it became a tank without armor, due to its small thickness.

    It sucks not to know and forget.
    The T-34 and KV sent to the Aberdeen Research Center received praise from the Americans specifically for their armor. The armor of the Stalingrad "Red October" was just heterogeneous, with surface hardening.
    In October 1942, the Germans released a study in which they noted the superiority of the T-34 armor over the armor of the Pz.III and Pz.IV precisely in terms of surface hardening.
    1. -1
      10 November 2023 17: 20
      [/quote]The armor of the Stalingrad "Red October" was just heterogeneous, with surface hardening.[quote]

      Amazing! Really?
  10. +1
    10 November 2023 13: 58
    Interesting movie. When they examined the armor of the "Royal Tiger" and tested it with shelling, the conclusion was unanimous: the armor was worse than before. The same thing was noted about the “Panthers” - a drop in the share of alloying additives (alloying armor instead of nickel and manganese with aluminum), an increase in the fragility of the armor, a deterioration in the quality of welds, which burst when hit by shells even without penetrating the armor. And suddenly such laudatory odes to the Germans from our people, and even in 1944.
    And for the T-34 in Mariupol, and then at the “Red October” in Stalingrad, behind the Vyksa and Kulebyak factories in the Gorky region, back in 1941 they began to make armor with surface hardening: a hard outer layer and a more elastic inner one.
    Then this technology was transferred to the Urals with the evacuation of Azovstal.
    1. -2
      10 November 2023 17: 18
      [/quote]And for the T-34 in Mariupol, and then at the “Red October” in Stalingrad, behind the Vyksa and Kulebyak factories in the Gorky region, back in 1941 they began to make armor with surface hardening: a hard outer layer and a more elastic inner one.

      It's time for wonderful stories. What is your evidence? (c)

      Then this technology was transferred to the Urals with the evacuation of Azovstal.[quote]

      Really? What is your evidence? (c)
    2. 0
      13 November 2023 11: 38
      Quote: Tank DestroyerSU-100
      Interesting movie. When they examined the armor of the "Royal Tiger" and tested it with shelling, the conclusion was unanimous: the armor was worse than before. The same thing was noted about the “Panthers” - a drop in the share of alloying additives (alloying armor instead of nickel and manganese with aluminum), an increase in the fragility of the armor, a deterioration in the quality of welds, which burst when hit by shells even without penetrating the armor. And suddenly such laudatory odes to the Germans from our people, and even in 1944.

      Nothing strange. The report, as I understand it, is dated March 1944, so it included samples of German armored vehicles produced in 1943 and, at most, the very beginning of 1944 - the armor of which was produced before the start of the "additive famine". "Fedya" definitely had no problems with the armor. smile
  11. -3
    10 November 2023 17: 12
    Quote: Kostadinov
    Quote: Jura 27
    Technological superiority is evident

    Technological superiority and tactical lag. The concept of a tank - a tank destroyer is an unconditional defeat of German designers - an analogue of the unconditional surrender of the Wehrmacht.
    Check out their Panther. This is a dream target for Soviet artillery with its large size, 40 mm of side armor and 20 mm of bottom and top. Or heavy tanks above 55 tons, similar in cross-country ability and mobility to a self-propelled bunker.
    Add an abundance of armor-piercing shells - a gift for the Soviet infantry and artillery.

    Tactically, and everything is also correct, if it is not possible to protect the entire tank with anti-ballistic armor, then one projection is protected.
    The Panther can still be classified as a fighter, but 4 and 6 are quite MBT.
    Nothing penetrated the panther’s forehead, so it’s still a “target”.
    OFS, they were quite normal, no match for Soviet ersatz shells.
    1. Alf
      0
      10 November 2023 22: 09
      Quote: Jura 27
      OFS, they were quite normal, no match for Soviet ersatz shells.


  12. -1
    10 November 2023 20: 00
    armor, without which victory would have been impossible.
    *****
    That's how it is. Has the author really edited his writing?
  13. +4
    10 November 2023 23: 13
    Tactically, and everything is also correct, if it is not possible to protect the entire tank with anti-ballistic armor, then one projection is protected.

    Tactical illiteracy in:
    1. Transformation of the tank into the heaviest, difficult to cross, expensive and large anti-tank gun. It is much easier to notice and then destroy by artillery, infantry and aviation; it is very expensive and difficult to produce and maintain.
    2. Ammunition from armor-piercing shells is ineffective against enemy infantry and artillery.
    3. Reduced tank protection to preventing enemy tanks from penetrating its armor in a duel situation. Like in medieval tournaments. And the battlefield doesn't look like a tournament. Just like today, Leopards and then German tanks, when they advanced, were disabled by mines (they hit mobile barrage brigades) and then they shot the stationary tanks with artillery or destroyed them with infantry.
    In defense, artillery and aviation deprived tanks of the ability to move and fire (without penetrating the armor) and then they were captured by infantry. For example, in Korea, the better armor and weapons of American and British tanks were destroyed very effectively by infantry advancing without any tanks. 2 thousand Hamas members did the same today (October 7, 2023) with all the Merkavs that got in their way.
    The Panther can still be classified as a fighter, but 4 and 6 are quite MBT.

    They all turned into tank destroyers. The last 4 was called “yagd”; it didn’t have a tower..
    Nothing penetrated the panther’s forehead, so it’s still a “target”.

    The panther was pierced into the forehead of the hull by a 122 mm blunt-headed armor-piercing bullet from 2 thousand meters. And the gun mask penetrated 45 mm sub-caliber from 300 meters. But there was no need to pierce the forehead, since the tank inevitably substitutes its side during an attack, and in defense it had a very vulnerable strike (18 mm for Panthers) from HE shells and mines.
    OFS, they were quite normal, no match for Soviet ersatz shells.

    75 mm Panther HE shells are in no way better than Soviet 76 mm and 85 mm and of course incomparably worse than 122 mm. But the main problem is that there were always very few HE shells in the ammunition load of German tanks, precisely because of the tactic of using them as anti-tank guns. And the effectiveness of good German armor-piercing shells against infantry and artillery is understandably very low.
    1. Alf
      0
      11 November 2023 18: 23
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The last 4 was called “yagd”; it didn’t have a tower..

      Powerfully said...Then the Su-85 can be called a thirty-four...
      Quote: Kostadinov
      But the main problem is that very few HE shells were used in the ammunition load of German tanks

      Can you provide numbers as proof?
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And the gun mask penetrated 45 mm sub-caliber from 300 meters.

      There is no need to tell fairy tales. The Panther has a 100mm gun mask...
  14. +1
    13 November 2023 11: 50

    Powerfully said...Then the Su-85 can be called a thirty-four...

    It wasn’t me, but the Germans who called it Yagd Pz 4 because they thought it would replace all Pz 4s with Yagd. As they did with all Pz 3 and all Pz 38 Skoda. In the USSR, no one thought about replacing all T-34s with SU-85s.
    Can you provide numbers as proof?

    The numbers are in all German descriptions of the standard ammunition of their Panthers, which consists of more than 50% armor-piercing shells.
    There is no need to tell fairy tales. The Panther has a 100 mm gun mask..

    There is a photograph and report on the penetration of the Panther cannon mask by a 45 mm sub-caliber projectile and a report on the inspection of German tanks on the battlefield.
    1. Alf
      0
      13 November 2023 18: 40
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The numbers are in all German descriptions of the standard ammunition of their Panthers, which consists of more than 50% armor-piercing shells.

      So give me a screenshot.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      It wasn’t me, but the Germans who called her that yagd Pz 4

      The Germans called it that not because they wanted to replace the tank with a self-propelled gun, which is unrealistic stupidity, but because the full name of the self-propelled gun was “self-propelled gun based on the T-4 tank.”
      Quote: Kostadinov
      There is a photograph and report on the penetration of the Panther cannon mask by a 45 mm sub-caliber projectile and a report on the inspection of German tanks on the battlefield.

      Give me a picture and a report.
  15. +2
    13 November 2023 12: 26
    Quote: Jura 27
    OFS, they were quite normal, no match for Soviet ersatz shells.

    1. The 75-mm HE shell used in the German KwK 37 and KwK 40 weighed 5,74 kg and contained 680 g of explosive, but upon explosion it produced only 765 lethal fragments within a radius of 11,5 m.
    2. the most common 76 mm OF-350 projectile had an explosive charge of 710 g and upon explosion produced 870 lethal fragments within a radius of 15 m. The effect of the 85 mm HE projectile is no worse.
    3. In addition, the maximum vertical angle for the Soviet T-34 is 85 + 22 degrees versus + 18 for the Panthers. With more weight and initial velocity of the HE projectile, the range of 85 mm is significantly longer, and what is more important is the accuracy of the 85 HE projectile at a range of several kilometers longer.
    The result is a good combination of the accuracy of the 85 mm projectile and the lethal effect on the target.
    1. 0
      13 November 2023 16: 19
      Quote: Kostadinov
      1. The 75-mm HE shell used in the German KwK 37 and KwK 40 weighed 5,74 kg and contained 680 g of explosive, but upon explosion it produced only 765 lethal fragments within a radius of 11,5 m.
      2. the most common 76 mm OF-350 projectile had an explosive charge of 710 g and upon explosion produced 870 lethal fragments within a radius of 15 m.

      The most common OS and OFS of military production had a body made of steel cast iron. And ammotol as an explosive.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The effect of an 85 mm HE projectile is no worse.

      Where did you find the wartime 85mm OFS? Both the D-5T and the ZIS-S-53 did not have OFS - only the OS inherited from the anti-aircraft gun.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      3. In addition, the maximum vertical angle for the Soviet T-34 is 85 + 22 degrees versus + 18 for the Panthers. With more weight and initial velocity of the HE projectile, the range of 85 mm is significantly longer, and what is more important is the accuracy of the 85 HE projectile at a range of several kilometers longer.

      And why does a tank whose crew is trained only in direct fire need this? His task is to hit a live firing position as quickly as possible with his OFS/OS, without artillery distortions with the calculation of firing data. The usual firing range is no more than a kilometer (most often no more than 600-800 m). Its main opponent is an anti-tank gun with the same firing range.
      Actually, one of the reasons for the transition from the F-34 to the D-5T and ZIS-S-53 was precisely the need to increase the direct shot range without reducing the power of the OFS. Because the enemy’s anti-tank guns have grown, and their typical firing range has become greater than the direct fire range of the F-34.
  16. +1
    14 November 2023 15: 31
    The most common OS and OFS of military production had a body made of steel cast iron. And ammotol as an explosive.

    Totally agree with you. At the same time, I quote: “The fragmentation effect of a 76 mm long-range fragmentation grenade of steel cast iron O-350 (grenade weight - 6,2 kg, amatol 80/20 equipment with a TNT plug) is rated by the reference book as “slightly higher” in comparison with a steel grenade with TNT. So that amatol and steel cast iron improve the effectiveness of an 85 mm fragmentation projectile. Which is very logical. Or is something wrong?
    And why does a tank whose crew is trained only in direct fire need this?

    Still, they were also trained in shooting from a closed position, and although this did not happen often. But the high angle of elevation makes it possible to hit some targets that are inaccessible at a smaller angle and at short distances since the battlefield is not an ideal flat terrain.
    Actually, one of the reasons for the transition from the F-34 to the D-5T and ZIS-S-53 was precisely the need to increase the direct shot range without reducing the power of the OFS.

    This is also a very valuable clarification, which also applies to the comparison of the OFS of the German 75 gun and the Soviet 85 mm OS.
    In summary, all your clarifications even better demonstrate the superiority of the T-34-85 in comparison to the Panther in terms of the main targets on the battlefield - anti-tank guns, machine guns, etc.
    1. 0
      10 December 2023 14: 27
      Steel cast iron produces more fragments and works better against infantry. The range is slightly reduced, by about 15%, since you cannot fire at a “full” charge; the projectile body is more fragile. But even without that, they hardly shoot at full HE. They shoot at full direct fire, armor-piercing.