What determines the effectiveness of automatic weapon fire?

70
What determines the effectiveness of automatic weapon fire?

Pistol MP-443 "Grach" developed by designer V. A. Yarygin.


Earlier, in the article “On some of the“ flaws ”of the Yarygin pistol and their causes,” Director of Poligon LLC Alexander Petrov touched upon the topic of evaluating individual samples of small arms weapons. In it, he spoke about how an unprofessional approach and unjustified conclusions made on this basis, without fully taking into account all the features, could have a negative impact on the subsequent “fate” of a particular type of weapon.

Continues the topic touched upon, article A.A. Catch, in which the author expresses his opinion on the high rate of fire and low accuracy of automatic weapons, as well as a comparative evaluation of automatic and manual weapons.

The use of firearms without reloading by the shooter - due to the excess energy of the propellant powder gases - led to the creation of a class of automatic weapons. Having a huge advantage over manual firing, automatic weapons simplified shooting techniques, reduced shooter fatigue and, ultimately, led to a change in the tactics of using small arms.

However, automatic weapons are inferior to non-automatic in such an important indicator as the accuracy of firing bursts. The reason for its decrease is the high frequency (10 and more than once per second) of the strikes of the moving parts of the automation at the end points of their movement, which leads to a violation of the stability of the weapon and a significant increase in the dispersion of bullets when firing in bursts.

How do the high rate of fire of automatic weapons and the reduced accuracy of fire in bursts combine? Is it possible to evaluate automatic weapons by the accuracy of a battle, recognizing the best sample, which has a higher accuracy?

Answers to such questions can be given only by considering the peculiarities of using weapons in various conditions, and the values ​​in them of accuracy of fire by bursts. Thus, according to the official shooting tables of small arms (TS “61 GRAU, ed. 1979 g.), The probable deflection of bullets due to dispersion in height and lateral direction (BB Sum) and the total dispersion of bullets when firing bursts (WB Sum) The prone position with the emphasis from the AKM submachine gun is averaged by the skill of the arrows, in comparison with a single fire, by 8-9 times.

And from unstable positions for firing (from a knee, standing) total dispersion in comparison with shooting from an emphasis increases even in 2-3 times. Approximately, the same increase in dispersion is observed when firing bursts of other types of automatic weapons. However, an increase in dispersion does not necessarily imply a reduction in the effectiveness of automatic weapon fire.

Shooting bursts forms a sheaf of bullets, giving hits on a larger area than with high accuracy. High accuracy of shooting reduces the area of ​​dispersion of bullets, and this, if the sheaf axis of the trajectories does not match with the target, reduces the probability of hitting the target. In most cases, the preparation of initial installations for firing is accompanied by errors that lead to the deviation of the average trajectory of fire from the target. And, if the magnitude of this deviation does not exceed the size of the area of ​​dispersion of bullets, then the probability of hitting the target is preserved.

Consequently, an increase in dispersion during firing does not always lead to a decrease in the effectiveness of the fire. It is especially important to understand and take this into account when using automatic weapons so that their rate of fire compensates for the decrease in accuracy of fire by bursts.

Currently, the effectiveness of fire is estimated by the number of targets hit, the level of destruction of which is determined by the fire mission. It has been established that when firing an enemy at destruction for a considerable time, at least 80% of individual targets should be disabled, suppression — about 50% of targets should be temporarily prevented from conducting active response actions and with disturbing fire — 30 disabled % of targets, difficult engineering and maneuvering, as well as weakened fire.

The tasks of the specified levels of hitting targets in all cases are solved by automatic weapon fire in a shorter time due to its rate of fire, which is an indisputable advantage over non-automatic weapons. At the same time, the accuracy of fire of a separate fire weapon does not play a decisive role - the density of fire (the number of bullets per one meter), which is exactly the automatic weapon, is more important.

The required level of damage to the enemy is determined by the combat mission and the capabilities of the unit in terms of time, ammunition consumption and other specific conditions. The fire to destroy is most successful when it is suddenly opened from ambushes at effective fire ranges, from stable positions for firing, with a sufficient number of cartridges and at night using tracer bullets. Fire on the suppression is advisable with a limited supply of ammunition, in conditions unfavorable for observation and on moving targets. Harassing fire is conducted to limit the actions of the enemy, when it is not possible to cause him more significant damage.

In all the above options, the fire of an automatic weapon does not require high accuracy of a separate fire weapon - its effectiveness, as already noted, is ensured by a high rate of fire and density of fire. When it is suddenly opened, in addition to material losses, a strong moral impact on the power of automatic fire turns on the enemy.
For automatic weapons, the most important requirement is not high accuracy of firing in bursts, but high reliability of operation in the most diverse conditions. From the very first years of the use of heavy machine guns at the end of the 19 century, the reliability of their operation became the main requirement for them, while accuracy of fire was not considered the most important feature of automatic weapons.

Moreover, in the design of machine guns, there were mechanisms for artificially increasing the dispersion of bullets when firing at wide and deep targets. In the modern rules for shooting small arms there are also recommendations on the use of fire with artificially increased dispersion. Increasing dispersal within certain limits can increase the effectiveness of automatic weapons.

Therefore, in the requirements for weapons should not set the minimum dispersion when fire bursts (required maximum value of accuracy), and the required accuracy for this type of weapon, corresponding to the combination of the most favorable conditions for the use of automatic weapons.

The optimum accuracy rate can be determined from an analysis of the probabilities of hitting targets in various instances of using automatic weapons, taking into account the accuracy of methods for preparing source data for shooting, the size and importance of the target, and other factors affecting the shooting results.

When determining the optimal accuracy, it is necessary to take into account the nonuniformity of dispersion of bullets, which creates a different density of impact depending on the distance of their flight path from the axis of the sheaf of dispersion. In the design of an automatic weapon, it is possible to provide a special device for changing (increasing or decreasing) dispersion, so that the shooter has the opportunity to use fire with optimum dispersion in accordance with a specific fire mission.

A similar purpose mechanism is used in the machine-gun DS-39 of the system V.A. Degtyarev to switch the rate of fire on air targets, which also leads to an increase in the dispersion of bullets.

Thus, the low accuracy of firing bursts of automatic weapons, as compared with a single fire, is not a disadvantage, since it is compensated for by an increase in the area of ​​dispersion of bullets and their density near the axis of the trajectory sheaf. The basis for the overall assessment of automatic weapons is the reliability of their actions, as evidenced by international practice.


AK-12 and M-16A3


It is known that the Kalashnikov assault rifle is inferior in accuracy of fire by bursts of automatic rifles in the USA of the M16 family, but surpasses them in terms of reliability in dust and pollution. This led to the spread of AK and its modifications in more than 50 countries of the world. A similar picture is observed with the use of the Dragunov self-loading sniper rifle of the SVD design.

Yielding to the accuracy of the battle with some modern sniper rifles of foreign manufacture, she is recognized by experts as the best army sniper rifle for virtually flawless action. The evaluation of the AN-94 of the Nikonov system, based on the high accuracy of fire with twin shots, led to its erroneous adoption by the army. However, AN-94 is not able to replace the Kalashnikov assault rifle due to insufficient reliability.


AN-94 “Abakan”


At the same time, the adoption of the reliability of its action as the main assessment of an automatic weapon does not exclude accuracy of fire, which largely determines the weapon’s fire capabilities, as an important characteristic.

First of all, it concerns a weapon that allows the conduct of a single fire. A single fire when firing from stable positions, in good conditions for observing the battlefield, with a more reliable determination of the initial settings for opening fire and good skills of the shooters ensures that the target is hit with a lower expenditure of ammunition. It should be noted that in many similar conditions, the desired result of hitting the target is achieved by firing bursts with a lower expenditure of ammunition with high accuracy of the weapon.

With this in mind, automatic weapons should be evaluated, first of all, not by the accuracy of the battle, but by the reliability of its mechanisms. The reliability of the mechanisms has always been and remains the basis for the evaluation of weapons.

Therefore, for automatic weapons, it is not the accuracy of fire with minimum dispersion that is important, but the optimum accuracy of bullet dispersion when firing to ensure the fulfillment of the intended fire mission. And the most important property of any firearm weapons has always been and remains its reliability in various conditions of its use.
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  1. +15
    12 January 2013 09: 33
    However, automatic weapons are inferior to non-automatic ones in such an important indicator as the accuracy of burst fire

    What shooting bursts from NOT automatic weapons ???
    I still did not understand the main message of the article. Accuracy is needed, equipping the SIBZ soldiers in droves requires even multiple hits
    for reliable incapacitation. But the accuracy of just 2 shots in Abakan at such a price is nonsense, I still think - the commission then got drunk to the blue devils ?? There were so many interesting alternatives, and they are a miracle with cables. Russian machine gun - with cables !!
    It is a pity that a clearly balanced Kalash was clearly buried, he hoped very much that he would be accepted.
    1. +7
      12 January 2013 11: 37
      However, automatic weapons are inferior to non-automatic ones in such an important indicator as the accuracy of burst fire

      Yes, yes, at this point, my processor also burned out. wassat
    2. Hunghuz
      +2
      12 January 2013 12: 03
      Quote: Mikhado
      However, automatic weapons are inferior to non-automatic ones in such an important indicator as the accuracy of burst fire

      Auth. and not. mixed up in places, I guess
      1. +4
        12 January 2013 14: 22
        Hmm, here the author got a mistake. I tried to understand what the author really meant - the brain freezed))))
    3. DuraLexSedLex.
      0
      12 January 2013 15: 24
      The author had in mind a semiautomatic device and an automatic machine, most likely.
      1. +2
        12 January 2013 19: 20
        Quote: DuraLexSedLex.
        The author had in mind a semiautomatic device and an automatic machine, most likely.

        And what has a semiautomatic device to do with it? He also does not fire in bursts, only reloading is carried out automatically. About the accuracy of the first pearl, the second, after which he gave up reading - "the density of the fire is more important (the number of bullets per running meter)".
    4. +5
      12 January 2013 16: 55
      Quote: Mikhado
      What shooting bursts from NOT automatic weapons ???

      Good day to all my friends! Probably I became quite old .... What the author wanted to say, I did not understand ..... Olivier salad from pseudoscientific terms and fantastic characteristics ... If Ak 12 has such an aiming range on a low-pulse 5,45x39, then all SVD and BARRETTs nervously smoke aside .... I don’t know, I didn’t like the article, although I didn’t put a minus, suddenly, I am too behind the times ????
      1. 0
        16 January 2013 13: 06
        Quote: sniper
        If Ak 12 has such an aiming range on a low-pulse 5,45x39, then all SVD and BARRETs nervously smoke aside

        Sighting range is the range over which the sight is calibrated. Do not remember the Mauser 96 carbine with a sighting range of 1000m? Comparison of weapons on the aiming range is incorrect.
    5. 0
      12 January 2013 19: 56
      What are you guys ?! Can't shoot bursts from the "single fire" position ?! Any teenager in the US knows that. They cannot sell automatic machines, so they sell M-16, AK-47 semi-automatic machines converted into SEMI-automatic machines. And here they sat down to shoot from them in bursts. (the instructor taught us to shoot like this as part of the standard program). How exactly, look at YouTube, the plot is called, in my opinion, "shoot in Russian". You can even buy a special stock for the M-16 for this. And the principle is based on the INERTIA of the weapon relative to the trigger finger.
    6. 0
      14 January 2013 20: 26
      However, automatic weapons are inferior to non-automatic weapons in such an important indicator as the accuracy of firing bursts.

      The author meant that the accuracy of the 10 shooting single would be better than the same heap received by the queue.
  2. klop_mutant
    -2
    12 January 2013 10: 35
    I wonder how long since the AK-74 began to concede the M-16 in the accuracy of bursts?
    1. 0
      12 January 2013 12: 40
      well there the index "74" does not seem to be indicated
      It is known that a Kalashnikov assault rifle is inferior in accuracy of fire to bursts of automatic rifles of the USA of the M16 family,

      So probably the author relied on the AK-47.
      1. DuraLexSedLex.
        -1
        12 January 2013 15: 24
        On the picture of the AK-12, I have doubts that it is inferior to the m16 in some way))) Weapons of different times)
    2. +1
      12 January 2013 18: 30
      since when AK-74 began to concede M-16 in accuracy of bursts

      Since its inception. The M-16 accuracy is slightly higher, the return is less. One trouble - it often wedges, and requires disassembly for cleaning. And the disassembly there - with screwdrivers lol ... In general, the history of its design is an excellent example of the American "managerial approach", when the bare theory of the self-cleaning of a gas channel with powder gases was immediately poured into the metal. And then we found out - the mistake came out request , the gas channel is not self-cleaning, but vice versa.
      1. +4
        12 January 2013 22: 38
        Botanologist Today, 18: 30
        yes, here the Germans over the amers are persuading that for half a century they have not been able to bring their gun to mind. Moreover, the video is quite modern M4. If you dig a little deeper and remember the M-14, then this is generally a feuilleton theme - on the 3rd shot, the barrel was already bulging up to the sky, not to mention the point about reliability that is always forgotten by amers
      2. klop_mutant
        0
        22 March 2013 23: 44
        Yeah, with a third more momentum of the cartridge, the recoil is less. Tell us about the "large mass of moving parts of the AK".
    3. borisst64
      0
      14 January 2013 10: 32
      I'll tell you about my personal experience. Unspent ammunition remained at the firing range. Naturally, it is easier to shoot than to hand over to the warehouse. I take a magazine, 12 rounds, I shoot with a fan, without aiming, on intuition, lying down. The result is that two of the three chest targets are hit, the line is 150-200 m.
  3. 0
    12 January 2013 11: 22
    With such, for the M-16, the shot line and the butt point of the butt in the shoulder are on the same line, for Kalashnikov, it is higher, therefore, a shoulder is created that interferes with the tip, i.e. throws the trunk up. But if you clamped both into rigid machines and shoot, it would be interesting to compare.
    1. Hunghuz
      +3
      12 January 2013 12: 59
      This is still fixed in AKM laughing
  4. +3
    12 January 2013 11: 52
    Evaluation of the AN-94 assault rifle of the Nikonov system, based on the high accuracy of fire by twin shots, led to his erroneous adoption of the army.


    In the nineties, at one of the first exhibitions, where our people dumped everything they could and could not, I watched a completely wild advertising campaign to push the AN-94. Announcements were broadcast every five minutes that Nikonov’s press conference was about to take place, slender virgins almost forcibly squeezed leaflets into everyone. It was terribly disgusting, since it was already known about the dubious merits of the product.
  5. +5
    12 January 2013 12: 48
    The author completely makes the brain that we would take as an axiom the last paragraph:
    Therefore, for automatic weapons, it is not the accuracy of fire with minimum dispersion that is important, but the optimum accuracy of bullet dispersion when firing to ensure the fulfillment of the intended fire mission. And the most important property of any firearm weapons has always been and remains its reliability in various conditions of its use.

    To be honest - the article is nonsense, but the last paragraph is sensible.
    Why do we need an assault rifle with the accuracy of a sniper rifle if it wedges from one speck of dust, and there is an alternative to it that can queue from 3-5 bullets into a circle 15 cm in diameter at a distance of 100 m?
    In this I agree with the author.
    1. Passing
      +1
      12 January 2013 13: 39
      Quote: cth; fyn
      and there is an alternative to it which can turn from 3-5 bullets into a circle 15 cm in diameter at a range of 100 m?

      Kalash has such accuracy in single, when firing bursts, the diameter must be multiplied, as it were, not by ten. "Demonstration performances", when a cool special shoots. Let's not consider the technique, because this specialist does not matter what to shoot from, even from the cord from the "belly", the result will always be great.
  6. Mr. Truth
    +3
    12 January 2013 13: 33
    What determines the effectiveness of automatic weapon fire?
    - naturally a cartridge.
    Personally, I am a supporter of the transition to 6,5 mm, this is an excellent caliber, you can enter impressive ballistic characteristics in the framework of moderate returns. It is necessary to introduce more effective DT to compensate for the growth of returns.
    And about automatic shooting, the machine gun performs this task more efficiently. He has a removable barrel, ribbons, let him beat in bursts.
    1. anomalocaris
      +2
      12 January 2013 20: 00
      That is yes. The funny thing is, if ours hadn’t chased after America in the 70s, it is quite possible that they didn’t adopt arsenals of 5,45x39, but 6x42. A much more adequate cartridge.
      1. +1
        12 January 2013 23: 32
        You know, somehow I read that the bullet was originally conceived by a caliber of 5,6 mm, but when approving the terms of reference in the Central Committee, the diameter was mixed with the caliber, and no one dared to fix the bureaucrat’s mistake after the signature was put and as a result the current bullet turned out to be practically maximum permissible characteristics ....
        1. anomalocaris
          +2
          13 January 2013 00: 06
          I heard similar, but did not meet documentary evidence. Well, the characteristics are not limiting, but it could be better. All the same, the experience of military operations confirmed that the optimal caliber for the machine is from 6 to 7 mm.
    2. +6
      12 January 2013 23: 18
      Quote: Mr. Truth
      What determines the effectiveness of automatic weapon fire?

      1. The probability of hitting the target.
      2. The probability of hitting the target.
      3. The mathematical expectation of the consumption of ammunition to hit the target.
      4. The mathematical expectation of the expenditure of time on the solution of the fire problem.
  7. Passing
    +1
    12 January 2013 13: 39
    Quote: cth; fyn
    and there is an alternative to it which can turn from 3-5 bullets into a circle 15 cm in diameter at a range of 100 m?

    Kalash has such accuracy in single, when firing bursts, the diameter must be multiplied, as it were, not by ten. "Demonstration performances", when a cool special shoots. Let's not consider the technique, because this specialist does not matter what to shoot from, even from the cord from the "belly", the result will always be great.
    1. Passing
      0
      12 January 2013 14: 06
      In general, the message that reliability is the main thing in weapons is more than doubtful. Let's turn on the logic, what is the main purpose of weapons? Hit the enemy before he hits you.! And nothing more. And here 100% reliability is not so important. It is unacceptable for a pacemaker malfunctions, and for a weapon one delay is quite acceptable for several thousand shots. If in 999 cases out of a hundred, you are the first to hit the enemy, and in only one case you have a weapon wedged and hit you, then this is more than an acceptable situation. Not for you personally, of course, but in a broad statistical sense.)))
      The whole Western world adheres to this concept, tried it on countless colonial wars, and is more than happy with the result, and only with stubborn fanaticism we ignore logic and common sense.
      1. +1
        12 January 2013 23: 59
        Quote: Passing by
        In general, the message that the main thing in weapons is reliability,

        This is not a promise. This is an axiom derived from human lives.
        Quote: Passing by
        Let's turn on the logic, what is the main purpose of weapons? Hit the enemy before he hits you.!

        It does not depend on the weapon, but on the skill of the warrior. Provided that the weapon is reliable. wink
  8. +2
    12 January 2013 14: 22
    The weapons in the troops should be varied, this is understandable. For special operations and special forces one thing, for combined arms units another. For the first, since they are highly trained and highly professional specialists - with increased accuracy of shooting (possibly to the detriment of the reliability and complexity of the design, if this cannot be avoided), for the second, who are mostly ordinary ordinary soldiers - the parameters of reliability and simplicity of design are in the first place (example - Kalashnikov assault rifle, no matter what they say). Although in the first case the concept of "reliability" is very relative, since the comparison is made with combined-arms models, the use of which is expected in a much more severe environment: trenches, sand, mud, rain, etc. In short, you can talk about this for a long time ...))) It is possible that among the specialists there are also virtuosos of shooting with Kalash ... Practice, practice and practice again, gentlemen))
  9. +5
    12 January 2013 14: 28
    Confused me picture with AK-12 and M-16. Since when did the sighting range of the M16 equal to 800 m? And why did they come up with such an Izhmash that the AK12 with an old cartridge of 5,45x39 has an impact range of 1 km. what nonsense?
    1. +3
      12 January 2013 14: 38
      Quote: bazilio
      And why did they come up with such an Izhmash that the AK12 with the old cartridge 5,45x39 has an aiming range of 1 km. what nonsense?

      Yes, with this clearly embellished.
      The SVD has an effective range of 800m, with 1200 optics, and after all there is a cartridge -7,62 × 54 mm R. It is completely different, both in power and in caliber.
      Maybe it’s just a matter of range, but this is an absolutely empty indicator that does not matter.
      1. +2
        12 January 2013 15: 59
        I completely agree with the statements. It is doubtful to expect from a light small-caliber bullet with a propellant charge of low power at such ranges, moreover, sighting ones. The SVD has a cartridge from Mosinka - that's where the power is! And that is not the fact of absolute defeat of the target. We have here AK-12 with 1000 meters ... nonsense !!! Publicity stunt, no more ...
        1. +5
          12 January 2013 18: 43
          I want to remind you that in ballistics, the aiming distance is the distance from the departure point to the intersection of the trajectory with the aiming line. And all Kalashnikov assault rifles, starting with the AKM, have an effective firing range of up to 1000 m, and not just the AK-12. Do not you think that a machine gun can only be shot at a target in the form of a person, and other targets, larger ones - cars, for example? So it is believed that for larger targets it is possible to conduct targeted fire up to 1000 m. Well, and the maximum range of a 5,45 caliber bullet is 3150 m, while maintaining slaughter up to 1350 m.
          1. anomalocaris
            +1
            12 January 2013 20: 12
            That's just for technology at such a distance a small-caliber bullet is not dangerous.
            1. 0
              12 January 2013 21: 45
              What do you think will happen to a person in a car (not armored) naturally if they fire him with AK, even at a distance of 1000 m?
              1. anomalocaris
                0
                12 January 2013 21: 55
                If the glass on the door is closed, then most likely nothing. At such a distance, the bullet will have an energy of about 50-60 J. Which, in principle, is enough to defeat an unprotected person, but for a target beyond the barrier it is quite safe.
                1. +1
                  12 January 2013 22: 29
                  Of course, I am glad for your optimism, but I doubt that you decide to protect yourself in such a situation. I remind you once again that lethal force remains at a distance of up to 1350 m. And if a bullet with a heat-strengthened steel core is still used, i.e. 7H10 then, then I’m afraid it will be even sadder ...
                  Also, I'm afraid you made a little mistake with the Joules. I don’t remember 5,45, but 7,62 at a distance of 800 m, an ordinary steel bullet has an energy of about 280 J, you can check in the ballistics textbooks. At a distance of 900 m, it pierces a steel helmet with a probability of 80-90%.
                  1. anomalocaris
                    +2
                    12 January 2013 23: 01
                    7,62 and 5.45 are two very big differences. Therefore, I ask you not to confuse them.
                    You can check. The grid contains quite adequate ballistic calculators.
                    In addition, the 5.45 caliber bullet is very light. And therefore, the penetration ability with at least some core at such distances will be lower than any criticism. It is because of the extremely low striking ability of such bullets at distances of over 600 m that the Americans are now rushing with various variants of 6 mm cartridges.
                    1. +2
                      12 January 2013 23: 24
                      You know, I’ve been in uniform for almost 20 years and I won’t be able to confuse them with all your desire. You seem to have not completely understood me. I don’t claim that at such a distance I’ll hit the target, I just can’t be arrogant about weapons based on only theoretical calculations. The conversation with us actually began about the aiming range and only then moved on to a slightly different plane. I summarize, nevertheless, I dare to say that even at a distance of up to 1000m from the AK it is possible to conduct targeted shooting, another thing is what kind of target. And if, moreover, it will be almost 8 gram bullets of a caliber of 7, 62 mm, I would definitely not want to sit in the car, even with the windows closed;)))
                      1. anomalocaris
                        +3
                        12 January 2013 23: 54
                        I asked not to confuse the warm with the soft ...
                        Once again I repeat it was about small-caliber cartridges.
                    2. 0
                      14 January 2013 04: 46
                      Sorry sir BUT (!) TWO DIFFERENCES DO NOT HAPPEN IN NATURE!!! Especially the bigger ones. There can only be one difference. Great and powerful Russian language, but you need to know the rules. wassat
                      1. +1
                        14 January 2013 05: 11
                        In Odessa, there are two big differences, there is still something wrong ... lol

                        "Azohen wei" ...
      2. anomalocaris
        +1
        12 January 2013 20: 10
        A bullet from AK-74 can fly about 3000m. At a distance of 1500m, the energy of a bullet is theoretically enough to cause fatal injury to a person. That's just to get unrealistic.
        By the way, the three-line sight was marked up to 3000 steps (2100m). the energy of the bullet at such a distance was more than enough, but no one spoke about "hitting".
    2. anomalocaris
      0
      12 January 2013 20: 04
      With modification M16A2. The AK bar is really notched up to 1000m. Therefore, you can aim precisely at such a distance. But there is also the concept of an effective firing range, which has an extremely indirect relation to the aiming range.
      1. +2
        12 January 2013 21: 43
        Quite right, AK has the most effective fire at distances of up to 400 m. But, as I understand it, this is not about that.
    3. +1
      13 January 2013 11: 51
      Quote: bazilio
      And why did they come up with such an Izhmash that the AK12 with an old cartridge of 5,45x39 has an impact range of 1 km.

      So after all, the AK-74 indicated an aiming range of 1 KM
  10. 0
    12 January 2013 17: 07
    True - reliability is the main indicator of frontal weapons or equipment.
    As for AK - for him the main type of firing is single. And in the instructions it is indicated - in bursts. Hence some inconsistencies in the application and in the requirements for it.
  11. 0
    12 January 2013 19: 06
    When comparing different types of automatic weapons, they forget, and undeservedly, the Baryshev weapon complex. If it was only about accuracy, then this weapon would be ahead of most others. You can find it here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugcLyrSdT1s
    1. 0
      13 January 2013 13: 54
      Not only Baryshev. The Korobov assault rifle was hacked at all, it is not clear why.
      Automatic Korobov TKB-0111

      "...
      German Aleksandrovich was the first to test the new 5,45 cartridge and revealed the dependence of the accuracy of hits on the rate of fire at different positions of the shooter. So the gunsmith found that the highest accuracy when firing from uncomfortable positions is achieved with a rate of fire of about 2000 rounds per minute, when, as when shooting from an emphasis lying down, the optimal rate of fire is 500 rounds per minute. Based on this, German Alexandrovich designed the machine ..... machine TKB-072 .......
      ..... to the contest "Abakan". The TKB-0111 submachine gun presented at the competition was nothing more than a modernized TKB-072, and the modernization consisted precisely in eliminating the very shortcomings revealed at the competition for adopting an automatic rifle under the 5,45 cartridge and adding three cartridges to the rapid-fire mode. Not only that, the very conditions of the competition were based on the development of German Alexandrovich ......
  12. 0
    12 January 2013 19: 27
    In the late USSR, such a position in life was popular - it’s very difficult for a person to do his job. Just indescribable how difficult! And then there are the damned consumers of what he does with such terrible work, have the utter audacity to demand anything from him. Well, there the qualities, reliability, completeness of the product (arrogant!) And even go so far in their absurd requirements that they want (you will not believe it!) That the performer does exactly what he was ordered!
    Of course, all this was very traumatic for the gentle engineers and designers ... although, of course, not to such an extent that they suddenly began to perform what they were ordered to do. So the author of the article writes this material that he knows better what the stupid customers need. And they need what has been done. They, the rogues, must contrive and adapt so that the "sheaf" of as many as two bullets still gets somewhere, and not demand something there ...
    In short, an article about "unbearable weather conditions".
  13. +2
    12 January 2013 19: 54
    Well, why are we still trying to evaluate weapons according to the requirements of the Second World War? We would remember the 18th century when we shot in one gulp to create a wall of buckshot. In order to kill a person, one bullet is enough, and there is no need to spend mountains of bullets. The task is only to deliver this one bullet exactly to the target.
  14. +1
    12 January 2013 20: 01
    Abakan - definitely NO! Kalash to the new, 7.62 - YES! Yarygin - STUDY NO !!! GSH-18 - YEARS FULL !!! No, well, the designer of Abakan made laugh - the trunk is on a slide ... and the bolt on rails with sleepers goes ...
    1. +1
      12 January 2013 21: 39
      And can you find out why Yarygin is not? Only in terms of facts and not emotions?
      1. 0
        13 January 2013 02: 00
        V E E E E S !!!!!!!!!!! (this is to be more poetic), plus stupid automation, rude performance. In general, just take two pages with the characteristics and just compare. By the way, the double emphasis of the barrel (like in cannons) in the gun gun is just a masterpiece. But Yarygin - I'm sorry 16th century ...
    2. georg737577
      +1
      14 January 2013 04: 15
      And you, sir, that GSh was in your hands? Have you tried to cock? .... a thousandfold yes ...
  15. Beltar
    0
    12 January 2013 20: 28
    Far from being nonsense, the Abakan's ability to shoot with a cutoff and even hit somewhere there with a second bullet definitely increases the cost and reduces the reliability of the weapon, while it is not the rifleman who inflicts the main losses on the enemy in war. Yes, and the consumption of cartridges to defeat targets in wars is actually wild, the amers in Afghanistan have 250 cartridges per killed mujahid, that is, most of the bullets are used not for beautiful headshots, but for dull barrage fire.
    SVD - a rifle with its narrow scope, an infantry sniper shoots no further than 400 m and is in battle infantry formations, here you want it or not, and the weapon should be reliable and undemanding. This ordinary sniper can shoot once, wash off and calmly carry out all operations for servicing weapons in the location of his unit. If his weapon fails, the enemy will not even know that he is lucky.
  16. +1
    12 January 2013 22: 37
    The article, judging by the title, was supposed to be about the effectiveness of fire. As a result, "water" around the bush and nothing concrete. And why did they drag in the reliability of the weapon? And it's a no brainer that if a weapon is not reliable, be it an assault rifle, a machine gun, or even a Robin Hood bow, then it is not needed - that's just what the effectiveness of fire has to do with it?
    1. 0
      12 January 2013 23: 36
      You are probably right.
  17. +11
    13 January 2013 01: 26
    I read the comments, it’s already soft, as someone wrote, they are confused with the warm, and the aiming range is confused with a direct shot. Let's analyze, i.e. soup separately, and flies separately. Let's start with the sighting range, what is it, where do these 1000 and 800 meters come from? Here is Kalashnikov, the width of his fly, and not only for him, in general it is the Soviet standard, two thousandths, it is believed that the width of the infantryman attacking is 0,5 m, then at a distance of 250 m, the target width and the width of the fly will be the same, but at a distance of 500m, the width of the target will be half the width of the front sight, how will we aim? Which half? Or will we be able to clearly identify the center of the front sight at a distance of 1000m, which is 4 times wider than the target and reliably hit the moving target? So, the aiming range is that range at which dispersion when firing from a fixed weapon does not go beyond the dimensions of the target. But whether a shooter can precisely aim at a mechanical range at such a range is another question. The diopter is certainly better in this regard, but at dusk it is useless. Now I hope it is clear that if a shooter at a distance of 1000m is aimed exactly at the center of the target, then a line of 8 rounds (standard sighting for automatic weapons) will lie in a circle (more precisely, an oval) with a width of no more than half a meter. Now about small calibers, let it be known to you that AKSU-74, shorty spesnazovskaya, has the same ballistics as the AKM, with a caliber of 7,62, and the AK-74, it (AKM) surpasses almost one and a half times. I mean the initial speed and as derivatives of it, the flatness of the trajectory and the firing range. The effectiveness of a small-caliber bullet should not be minimized, even if it flies from a distance of 2000m and gets into the head or ass, there will be no bruise, there will be injury, and in the first case a dead person is very likely, and in the second, a couple of months are provided in the hospital . Well, in conclusion, just about the machine, now imagine a large orchestra, in it there are pianists and violinists and other musicians, there are also guitarists. Now hang each of them (except of course the guitarists) on the back of the guitar, well, just in case there, and suddenly the drum breaks and there is nothing to play on. Who do you think will play the guitar best from this orchestra? That's why even though there is an assault rifle, both for an artilleryman, and for a tanker, and even for an attack aviation pilot, but these are amateurs, only fighters of rifle units can really use an assault rifle, and trained fighters! But I’m thinking, for many, it’s not known how to determine the distance to the target according to the width of the target, how to shoot ricochet, how to shoot at the back slope, how to reload the machine with one hand, how to equip the store, so that when they are rearranged it would not be necessary to cock the shutter what needs to be done when the return spring does not send the bolt back because of soot, and even on which side you need to clean the weapon, and what to do when there is nothing to handle the barrel from soot, I am already silent about such a trifle as bringing the weapon to normal combat.
    1. anomalocaris
      -8
      13 January 2013 09: 03
      Ooooh, how's it going. Even commenting on such nonsense does not pull.
      1. +1
        14 January 2013 22: 39
        Quote: anomalocaris
        similar nonsense

        You shouldn’t be so. Either argue objectively (correct) or do not write anything. And just spitting is easy, and most importantly useless.
    2. 0
      15 January 2013 00: 29
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      Here is Kalashnikov, the width of his fly, and not only for him, in general it is the Soviet standard, two thousandths, it is believed that the width of the infantryman attacking is 0,5 m, then at a distance of 250 m, the target width and the width of the fly will be the same

      The fly width of the AK74 is 2 mm, which by no means can be two thousandths of a range (if only because for this eye the shooter should be 1 m from the fly, and the length of the entire AK74 assault rifle, depending on the modification, is no more than 94 cm - or do you keep it on weight?). In addition, depending on the anatomical features and the habit of holding a weapon, each person will have his own eye pupil removal from the front sight, of course it is crumbs, but still. I have this distance (measured as soon as a uniform grip has formed) of about 673 mm, therefore the cover value of the front sight (it's so military name, you suddenly don’t know) will be 29,7 cm for every 100 meters or 3 thousandths (rounded).
      1. OvsyannikovVA
        0
        15 January 2013 00: 59
        Do not try to seem smarter than you are, carrying nonsense (I understand the anatomical features, so you need to get used to any weapon).
        AK front sight width is 2 thousandths of a metric unit of length (meter) 2mm = 2/1000 m
        1. 0
          15 January 2013 23: 15
          Quote: OvsyannikovVA
          do not try to appear smarter than you are, carrying nonsense

          And I wish you the same. The author of the comment meant exactly the angular value of 2 thousandths of the range (0-02). It was from this that he concluded that at a distance of 250 m, the width of the front sight and the width of the target (0,5 m) would be comparable. Apply the thousandth formula, count and everything will fall into place. In addition, it was mentioned that this (the width of the front sight is 2 mm) is the Soviet standard, if you believe your statement (about 2 thousandths of a metric unit of length), then other models of weapons should have the same front sight. But this is not the case. On the PKM (PKP) front sight width is 2,4 mm. In general, the longer the aiming line of the weapon, the wider the front sight. If this does not convince you, then I think the "motorized rifleman" himself will explain who understood him more correctly.
  18. +2
    13 January 2013 12: 27
    small caliber do not like it? in vain)) the ratio of the small caliber and the length of the bullet makes it unstable! starts spinning after being hit, the wound channels are very large, in the pig carcass at the exit 9cm .... radiographs of bones after meeting with 5,45 are generally sad .. .Moreover, bullets are defragmented ... and training a person to use AK takes a minimum of time)))) without optics, it’s hard to get to a range of more than 600m ... accuracy is complete, and then in vain do you learn to cut off two cartridges? and into the knees growth targets?
    1. anomalocaris
      -1
      13 January 2013 13: 27
      No I do not like. Yes, for an unprotected target, wounds are terrible at short distances, but against the slightest shelter and against body armor, and even the lightest at a distance of more than 300m, they are practically powerless. If the AKM bullet freely penetrates a tree trunk with a diameter of 30 centimeters and is guaranteed to control the enemy behind it, then 5,45 will remain in the tree.
      Maybe you mean the process of fragmentation of bullets? Well, this does not depend on caliber. This is a purely constructive feature of the bullet.
      They teach to cut off 3 rounds, on "22" ...
      1. +1
        13 January 2013 14: 23
        I was taught to cut off by 2)))) and it was at 22)))) at the expense of fragmentation, sorry, I was wrong)))) at short distances it just doesn’t really rotate))) I won’t say about design features)))) I won’t in the know)) but this happens and tears)) who better tries to argue stupidly, but a bronik with shot legs will not help much .... by the way we were punished for cutting off more than 2))))
      2. OvsyannikovVA
        +1
        15 January 2013 01: 12
        a snake on a frozen tree
  19. +3
    14 January 2013 03: 51
    ..... If the AKM bullet freely penetrates a tree trunk with a diameter of 30 centimeters and is guaranteed to control the enemy behind it, then 5,45 will remain in the tree ...

    Again, not the coat, what do you think that when switching to small calibers, the gunsmiths allowed someone to reduce the bullet’s energy ?, Just the opposite, because it is proportional to the square of the speed, So increasing it, (speed) by 1,5 times, the weight of a bullet can be reduced by 2 times, and its energy would remain at the same level, so that your tree, a 5,45 caliber bullet would have punched no worse and better, because the breakdown force depends again on the square of the speed and strength of the bullet material ( core) .This is just the problem in the excessive penetrating power of small-caliber bullets, they have a large lateral load, which easily allows it to penetrate the body, well, compare the stab and the awl, but the bullet for the defeat, you need to give all your energy to the body, rather than breaking through it, fly away further, which is why they came up with a mixture of the center of gravity, so that the bullet would rotate, by reducing the lateral load, moving sideways, along the curve, could transfer all the energy to the victim. Because it is unstable when it collides with an obstacle, I don’t know if there are armor-piercing bullets of 5,45 caliber, i.e. I did not come across, but if there is, then they will work, no worse. than 7,62 AK-47. At the expense of the cutoff, we really weren’t taught, but they demanded that they fire 2 rounds of ammunition. There was such a problem, the shooter focused on the descent, i.e. you need to press it gently, and release it quickly. The shooter is instinctive, and he pressed quickly, which means sharply, and of course missed. We came up with such a technique, loaded the magazine, alternating through one cartridge with conventional and tracer bullets. And the first was with an ordinary bullet. Then the shooter gently pressed the trigger, the first shot with an ordinary bullet, no matter how it was perceived, after a tracer shot, the fire stopped, it turned out training in stopping shooting after the tracer. We studied pretty quickly. Then the two rounds of cartridges turned out very well already with ordinary cartridges. At the same time, the penultimate cartridge was always charged with a tracer, i.e. when the tracer came out, you know that your store is empty, and there is a cartridge in the chamber, then just change the store without touching the shutter and you can shoot further. Maybe someone will come in handy.
    1. anomalocaris
      0
      14 January 2013 16: 01
      The muzzle energy of the AKM bullet is -1900J, for the AK-74 - 1300 ... Compare, I will not say what with what. In addition, there is also the absolute mass of the projectile (except for the relative). Why am I crucifying here ... From the AKM a shelter of the "barn" type can be disassembled from 800m, but 5,45 gets stuck in 40k already at 400x ... This is my personal experience.
  20. +1
    14 January 2013 20: 01
    Well, of course, compare, one has 7.9g and 715m / s, the other has 3.4g and 900m / s, respectively 207kg / m and 140kg / m ....... which of them loses speed faster is silly to say))) but the distance actual shooting is almost the same .. the point is to compare them?. they even have different wind corrections .. from 800m only to shoot at sheds, it’s difficult to hit a person)))) you can climb on a 4-point fly ..... you’re hovering at 400m. ....
  21. +1
    15 January 2013 00: 49
    Quote: motorized infantryman
    So, the aiming range is that range at which dispersion when firing from a fixed weapon does not go beyond the dimensions of the target. ... Now I hope it is clear that if a shooter at a distance of 1000m is aimed exactly at the center of the target, then the turn ... will lie in a circle (more precisely, an oval) with a width of no more than half a meter.

    Where did you get this from? Kind source. If this is your personal (and of which I am absolutely sure nothing confirmed) opinion, then write so. If you follow your logic, then the SVD (even if it is not an automatic weapon, but for an example) rigidly fixed in something should lay the N-th number of shots of 0,5 meters at a distance of 1200 m (at large distances, it must be assumed that dispersion will be more significant), and after installing the same PSO on it, she suddenly (lo and behold!) fires shots at the same 0,5 m but at 1300 m. It turns out that the mere fact of installing it on a rigidly fixed weapon caused an increase in the accuracy of his battle. Oh how!
    I do not like SVD, take PKT- it, like a motorized arrow, will be closer to you. The PKT on the BMP-1 has an impact range of 1300m, and the same PKT on the BMP-2 has 2000m. Explain this from the point of view of your statement?

    Quote: motorized infantryman
    line of 8 rounds (standard sighting for automatic weapons)

    This applies exclusively to the RPK74 machine gun and its modifications. Automatic automatic fire DOES NOT Bring to normal combat, PKM (PKP) 10 rounds in THREE-FOUR bursts, FCT 10 rounds, "CORD" (NSV-12,7) in two bursts of 5 rounds. What else do you have from an automatic arrow carrier in the infantry?

    Quote: motorized infantryman
    let it be known to you that AKSU-74, shorty spesnazovskaya, has the same ballistics as the AKM, caliber 7,62

    What a news! Look at the shooting tables before declaring so unfounded.

    Quote: motorized infantryman
    That's why even though there is an assault rifle, both for an artilleryman, and for a tanker, and even for an attack aviation pilot, but these are amateurs, only fighters of rifle units can really use an assault rifle, and trained fighters!

    Participate somehow, at least in a regional tournament on practical shooting with a carbine. You will be surprised how many of the shooters (very professionally wielding weapons) those same “amateurs” and even purely civilians. And the point here is not so much in the specialty, the number of hours allotted for combat training, etc., but in the desire or absence of such to engage in this business.
    1. 0
      15 January 2013 00: 56
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      But I’m thinking, for many, it’s not known how to determine the distance to the target according to the width of the target, how to shoot ricochet, how to shoot at the back slope, how to reload the machine with one hand, how to equip the store, so that when they are rearranged it would not be necessary to cock the shutter what needs to be done when the return spring does not send the bolt back because of soot, and even on which side you need to clean the weapon, and what to do when there is nothing to handle the barrel from soot, I am already silent about such a trifle as bringing the weapon to normal combat.

      Any graduate of a more or less decent military university (or just a keen person) knows how to determine the distance to the target by the width of the target use the cover value of the front sight, shoot over the back ramp to fire in an enclosed space (after all, not only through the hills we fire), reload the machine with one hand, equip the store, so that when they are rearranged it would not be necessary to cock the shutter, what should be done when the return spring does not send the shutter back due to soot He owns all the techniques that came from practical shooting and experience working at short distances, he knows how to eliminate delays, etc. etc. By the way, enlighten at the expense of ricochet shooting (I didn’t see it in artillery, but I heard about it), but from small arms ... !? It seems that neither I, nor the command, nor (most importantly) comrades complain about my training, but I don’t own it. Teach, I will be immensely grateful.
      I’m all tired, I’m no more strength, I won’t edit your next ingenious comment, and it's time to get ready for a business trip. Thank you for being. You are our All. And to be honest, you don’t have to consider yourself the smartest, and all other amateurs - be more modest. Everyone has the right to an opinion, but before expressing it, one needs to understand the essence of the issue. And so there is a feeling that you picked up somewhere "tops" and clever here, looked at your comments - read less Potapova and Co. I am ready to listen to the reasoned answer, I will not answer the emotional srach.
  22. 0
    15 January 2013 03: 52
    It’s accepted, Thank you, for a tub of cold water, in the end I may have gone too far and, obviously, I don’t always have the ability to conduct the right dialogue, what to do, the person is weak ...
    I'll try without emotion. Unfortunately, I didn’t finish institutions, and the army did not train me in the instructors, I somehow had to do it myself, so I don’t know the generally accepted terms, I write from memory, here I ask for leniency. About amateurs, because I also didn’t mean that the same gunners didn’t know how to shoot from a machine gun, not at all, I meant that indeed, for them it’s an auxiliary weapon, but the main thing is some kind of artillery system, for a machine gun , this is the main weapon and since he shoots it more often, then he will use it better, in the same rifle compartment the grenade launcher will shoot from RPGs, better than the machine gunner, for the same reasons.
    Regarding the reduction of automatic weapons to normal combat, you’re right the machine guns at 4 single shots, but in principle it’s believed that we shot just like that, and RPK-74, and PKM and the mentioned PKT, according to this scheme, 4 single and several bursts of common with at least 8 rounds of ammunition, and then, as you think, the owner of the assault rifle will restrain itself from the possibility of checking its accuracy by automatic firing, without any limitation in ammunition. Why am I talking all the time about fastening the weapon, you probably know that when shooting, the instructions do not mention any mechanisms for this, everything is in the lying position, the best shooters and only when aligning the optics a sighting machine is used, the thing is quite primitive, and in my opinion it’s not convenient, and so we had a machine from the AGS (tripod) with a bench vise mounted on it, and with it we worked. About AKSU-74 ballistics, I don’t have any tables, but what I remember, by the way from the instructions, it has an initial bullet speed higher than the AKM and almost the same effective range of aimed fire, the same 350-400m and this with a shorter the trunk. Yes, he has more dispersion, again because of the short trunk, but the flatness of the trajectory, and hence the ballistics, is the same, at least at the mentioned range. The aiming range of the PKT, even on the 1st, even on the 2nd BMP, even on the T-62, we always considered 2000m, where 1300, I don’t know, I think it's some kind of mistake. Ricochet shooting, used on an enemy that cannot be reached by direct fire and which is close to hard surfaces, here is the principle of billiards, the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection when fire is fired on a surface located on the side, behind or above the enemy, so that rebounds and fragments of the surface, hit the space where the target is. Potapova read, I confess, also Plaster and Miller and someone else, but there everything is mostly classic, long-distance shooting, camouflage, etc. This is not very suitable for me, it was much easier for me, for example, you go in a chain near the platoon commander and work on his command center, and no one required to get into the head, you just had to get in and preferably with the first shot and that’s all ... no tricks , the creation of firing positions and fire cards, hairy camouflage and then had to shoot either standing or from the knee. The fact that you have the impression of the tops upsets me, too, well, apparently writing more convincingly does not work, but I will try. Well, as it were, if I forgot something, I apologize.
    1. 0
      15 January 2013 17: 34
      I served in a tank, at an increased expense (motorcycle resource). That is, 10 tanks are driven out to the training ground, only their full-time mechanized water supplies are from the service team, and the entire battalion fires from them. A bunch of free time. So, one day, on our own initiative, we shot a full-time machine gun (coaxial with a cannon). A special optical device was used to shoot the machine gun (I don’t know the name): the metal pin of the device was inserted directly into the barrel of the machine gun, and the optics of the device looked to the side (for the eyepiece) and towards the target by the lens itself. A person sitting on the gunner’s site points the tank sight at the target (stone, branch) at a certain distance (we shot 200 meters), then, from the loader’s place, the machine gun adjusting screws were twisted until the cross of the sighting device coincided with the target where the gunner’s sight was aimed . So, without firing a machine gun was shot. When checking, the crow was shot with the first shot (from a distance of 200 meters).
      1. anomalocaris
        0
        15 January 2013 17: 49
        This gizmo is called THP - cold shooting tube. Very useful thing. There are more advanced options.
  23. anomalocaris
    0
    15 January 2013 17: 19
    Quote: motorized infantryman
    The aiming range of the PKT, at least on the 1st, at least on the 2nd BMP, at least on the T-62, we always considered 2000m,

    Who do you have it with? By the way, on what grid is aiming from a coaxial machine gun on the BMP-1? And in general, how much is its sight marked?
  24. 0
    15 January 2013 22: 45
    Well, ask questions, Almost 30 years have passed, well, I will remember. We, this motorized rifle, in particular in our division, had 2 MSEs, one on an armored personnel carrier, the other on an infantry fighting vehicle, I served in it. Aiming from the PKT was carried out on the same net as from the gun, the net was marked up to 1300 m, at the very bottom it had a lower crosshair, one of 3 points for firing ATGMs. The STP of the machine gun didn’t quite coincide with the corresponding brands of the sight, on the medium it coincided well, on the near it was lower, and on the far ones higher. Accordingly, they aimed at the upper edge of the target, at close distances, at the middle in the middle and at the lower edge of the target at the far, with the base of the lower crosshairs, firing further up to 2000m, with adjustment for rebounds. In general, as far as I remember, about 1000m recommended, but we shot further, as the weapon allowed, just the sight was not overshot. At medium distances, they fired from the PKT, as from a gun, or instead of it, i.e. loaded cartridges with a gap, well, a cartridge, then an empty slot, again a cartridge, etc. and an imitation of firing a grenade was obtained.
    1. 0
      16 January 2013 00: 07
      It is very pleasant that I met an adequate person who correctly perceived criticism.
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      whence 1300, I don’t know, I think this is some kind of mistake
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      the grid was marked up to 1300m

      This is precisely why the BMP-1 (1PN22M2 sight) sighting range of PKT is 1300 m. These sighting markers are used for PKT and PG-15, below are markers for OG-15 up to 1600 m, and below a marker for Malyutka ATGM. The fact that you fired up to 2000 m with ricochet correction, well what can I say, well done (without a trick), but this is not exactly aimed shooting, so you can fire without a sight at all, if only b / pr was enough. But for the BMP-2 (BPK-1-42 sight), the PKT reticle is marked up to 2000m.
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      just the sight was not overshot
      But this is why the sight is not overshot, although the weapon allows or vice versa when it is no longer possible to aim at the characteristic target for a given weapon, and the sight is marked at this range and more this is a big, ambiguous question and the topic of a separate article.
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      the flatness of the trajectory, and hence the ballistics, is also comparable

      Not comparable. If it’s interesting, I’ll come on Sunday to post scans of the shooting tables from the instructions of AKM, AKS74U, AK74 or download them yourself, since it’s quite possible to find them on the Internet now.
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection,

      It began to write you an explanation, but it painfully long turns out. In general, it does not apply, more precisely, it does not make sense for kinetic ammunition, only for fragmentation, and for them at the present time, too.
  25. 0
    16 January 2013 00: 42
    Quote: motorized infantryman
    only when aligning optics a sighting machine is used

    Only for preliminary coordination of a mechanical and optical sight, and then firing without a machine tool. Earlier, the conversation (in terms of the hard mount of the weapon) was about the aiming range, but now it has gone into the mainstream of checking the battle and leading to a normal battle, but oh well.
    Quote: motorized infantryman
    with it we worked
    Well, in vain. The assault rifle should be brought to normal combat without a machine. I will try to explain briefly. For example, I have a certain grip of the weapon, or I somehow in a special way (not quite right), but always handle the trigger in the same way, etc. This causes not accidental, but SYSTEMATIC deviations of the holes during shooting (systematic shooting errors). If the weapon is brought to normal combat from the weapon fixed in the machine tool, then these errors will be absent during the alignment, but as soon as I take such a "verified" weapon and go to the exercise, they will appear and I will start to miss. If I bring the weapon to a normal battle without a machine, these errors are present during the alignment, I see them in the form of deviations of holes from the control point and, accordingly, I remove them by entering corrections into the sight. I hope I explained it clearly. Another question is if the shooter is not experienced and with each shooting changes the grip, handles the descent differently, etc., then yes, in this case, you can use a machine tool or a more experienced shooter (the best shooter of the unit). But this is until he (not an experienced, young shooter) stabilizes, after that he must bring the weapon to a normal battle without a machine, which will allow him to more accurately adjust the machine for himself.
  26. 0
    16 January 2013 03: 03
    I’ll start from the end, customization for myself may not be bad, but honestly, I couldn’t even think of that at that time, again, they didn’t require instructions, but the commanders didn’t demand, and most importantly, there wasn’t so that everyone would shoot their own weapons. Except for snipers of course. A sighting group was created, which drove away all the barrels, but the shooter may have his own SYSTEMATIC errors, which may not coincide with the mistakes of the one who will shoot from this barrel. And so it was a shot barrel, with the same parameters throughout the company in its group. Again, on the example of the BPM, the unit was also back and forth, but the deuce required both time and qualifications, and the crews had a lot, let's say, not Slavs. They simply could not do this work. Then all these THPs, musk breeders, were in limited quantities, to put it mildly, and with time this is always a problem.
    Again RPG, it’s just just from the machine and verified, but the staff, well, not convenient.
    Ricochet shooting, and you try on occasion, you only select a harder surface.
    About AKSU, though it would be interesting to look at the table, I will try to search of course myself, but I will be grateful if there are skins.
    When it’s not overshot, it’s perplexing, maybe they didn’t want to complicate it, but when it’s the other way around, it’s often for group shooting, the aiming range, for example, allows you to throw a bullet at 1000m from the AK, but you can’t precisely aim, the target is much smaller, and the dispersion it doesn’t allow saturating the space in the target area for a guaranteed defeat, and if you shoot with a platoon, you can very likely get there. Unless of course there is something serious at hand, but you need to get there.
    From 1300 I gave a flop of course, but we shot PG-9 shots and OFG, I didn’t have a chance to shoot
    1. +1
      26 January 2013 21: 02
      Maybe late, but how could.
  27. 0
    26 January 2013 23: 23
    Come on, lively, already good. But, what we see is the difference in excess, at a distance of 50 to 250m 4-5cm. In general, it is necessary to compare it with AKM, and not with AK74. Thanks anyway, for the boy said, the boy did! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for your attention and in general.
    1. 0
      27 January 2013 00: 26
      So the 3rd table is just AKM.