Another project to the right: nuclear icebreakers will have to wait

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Another project to the right: nuclear icebreakers will have to wait
Icebreaker "Ural" project 22220.


The time of giants has not yet come


It's a difficult start history starts with the awareness of the chronic shortage of icebreaking equipment in Russia fleet. Primarily due to the growth of traffic along the Northern Sea Route.



At the end of 2022, the flow of cargo exceeded 34 million tons, which is a record - this did not happen either in the Soviet era or in modern Russia. The main flows come from Yamal LNG Novatek, New Port Gazpromneft and Arctic LNG-2 Novatek. At the same time, a reduction in cargo transportation is not planned - more than 2023-40 million tons should be reached in 45, and 2025 million in 90.

Currently, more than half of the cargo traffic on the Northern Sea Route is liquefied natural gas. The presence of a powerful icebreaker fleet is critically important in the development of the Northern Sea Route. Despite inevitable global warming, the pace of ice retreat to the north is insufficient, and nuclear icebreakers will be relevant for a long time.

You can build modern terminals and ports, purchase gas carriers and tankers, but be left without icebreaking ships. The multibillion-dollar enterprise will operate only for a few months a year. To implement year-round navigation, Russia has launched the construction of a whole series of icebreakers.

Paradoxically, the junior icebreakers of Project 22220 are the largest and most powerful in the world. In accordance with the program, three vessels have already been launched, and four are under construction. More precisely, even four icebreakers have been launched - "Arktika", "Sibir", "Ural" and "Yakutia", but the latter will be completed afloat until the end of next year.


Project 22220 icebreaker "Yakutia" under construction.

The Chukotka ship has been under construction at the Baltic Shipyard since 2020, and the Kamchatka and Sakhalin ships will be laid down in 2024 and 2025, respectively. The series of icebreakers was developed specifically for the Northern Sea Route and is distinguished by its versatility, that is, the ability to work both at sea and in river beds. This is ensured by variable draft, that is, the adaptation of the icebreaker to shallow river waters and to the depths of the sea.

Project 22220 vessels should gradually replace the icebreakers of the Soviet period - “Vaigach”, “Taimyr”, “Yamal” and “50 Let Pobedy”. According to Deputy Chairman of the Russian Government Alexander Novak, in just seven years the number of icebreakers on the Northern Route will be 13 units, of which at least nine will be ultra-modern.

But the northern seas do not live by icebreakers alone - by 2030, Russia intends to commission 132 Arctic-class vessels. In the same program, the construction of 46 ships for the rescue fleet and special aviation. The first birds have already arrived - the offshore Mi-171A3 for oil and gas workers has been operating in the skies since 2021.

The main players on the Northern Sea Route should be Project 10510 Leader nuclear icebreakers. The ships' power plant develops a record 120 MW, which is twice as much as that of the Project 22220 icebreakers. For comparison, the total power of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier is only slightly more - 148 MW.

There are plans to build at least three “Leaders”, intended primarily for high-speed navigation of large-capacity vessels across the ice. Another comparison is that the width of the world’s largest icebreakers, Project 22220, is 34 meters, while that of the Leader under construction is 47,7 meters. It is unlikely that it will be possible to navigate a supertanker like the Knock Nevis across the ice, but there is enough space for the passage of some Maersk Peary and several of its older brothers.

As we see, there are simply a huge number of plans, and all of them must be implemented no later than 2030. But that's it for good news domestic shipbuilding is ending.

It's unlikely to meet deadlines


An alarm bell sounded a year ago, when Vladimir Putin called for not losing momentum and meeting the deadlines for commissioning new icebreakers. The President voiced this requirement on the eve of the launch of the Project 22220 Ural icebreaker in December 2022.

But even if all production plans are met, the icebreaker fleet will still not be enough. The growth rate of traffic along the Northern Sea Route is growing faster than expected, which requires more ships. While transport ships can still be dealt with somehow, for example, by purchasing “conditionally ice-class” ships, this will not work with icebreakers.

Alexey Chekunkov, head of the Ministry of Eastern Development, claims that by 2030 six more icebreakers are required in addition to those laid down and planned. Otherwise, it will not be possible to achieve annual traffic of 200 million tons of cargo by the designated time. At the same time, all domestic shipyards are loaded with orders for years to come.

Chekunov suggests, before it’s too late, to turn to shipbuilders in India and China for help. But that's only half the problem.

In the end, nothing critical will happen if six additional icebreakers do not appear by 2030 - cargo turnover in the Arctic Ocean will simply not grow so rapidly.


The icebreaker of Project 10510 is still only in the plans, but has already managed to rise in price from 128 to 200 billion rubles.

The real difficulties began when they calculated the cost of the icebreakers being built.

Even before international sanctions, ships were not cheap - each super icebreaker Leader cost 130 billion rubles, and class 22220 cost 60 billion. At 2023 prices, each Leader is valued at 200 billion rubles. In this case, the deadline for accepting the vessel into operation shifts to the right.

Initially, the first icebreaker of the Leader project, which bears the proud name “Russia,” was supposed to appear in December 2027. Now its appearance on the Northern Sea Route is not expected before 2029. There are many reasons - a shortage of workers at the Zvezda shipyard, delays in deliveries and simple underfunding.

The Leader project ships suddenly rise in price to 200 billion rubles each, which entails a bunch of problems, the main one of which is the increase in tariffs for ship pilotage. In the most difficult case, this neutralizes all the attractiveness of the Northern Sea Route, primarily for foreign shipowners.

The most surprising thing is that the lag in the pace of assembly of the Rossiya is due to the difficulties of casting large parts of the hull and assembling components of the nuclear installation. These elements should not depend in any way on imported equipment, much less on the dollar exchange rate. But what is, that is - the ice tooth, elements of the rudder and propellers were supposed to be manufactured at the Energomashspetsstal plant in Kramatorsk. According to available data and understandable reasons, the plant is now unable to produce the necessary components - part of the plant has been destroyed.

Things won’t go well with Rossiya’s younger brothers, the 22220 class icebreakers Arktika. The ships “Chukotka” (laid down in December 2020) and “Kamchatka” (laid down in 2024) may double in price. These are the fifth and sixth icebreakers of the series, respectively. There is no word yet on how much the final vessel Sakhalin will increase in price.

More - more.

The difficult economic situation is forcing a reduction in government funding for ship construction. Moreover, last year Mikhail Mishustin signed a decree allocating 118 billion rubles for a couple of additional icebreakers and 25 billion for a support ship. The funding was expected to be disbursed by 2030.

But now financiers are seriously thinking about saving. In the draft budget for 2024–2026. the costs of building icebreakers of the 22220 and 10510 series are somewhat reduced. In total, savings should amount to 9–10 billion rubles. They will pinch off a little from each icebreaker under construction - an average of 2 billion rubles. At first glance, it does not smell like a disaster, but taking into account the rise in price of each vessel, the commissioning dates have noticeably shifted to the right.

Unfortunately, this is becoming a kind of modern trend. First, they rewrote the program for civil aircraft manufacturing, shifting a good part of production closer to 2030. Now it will come to the nuclear icebreaker fleet.

How critical this really is remains to be seen. It seems that the time for difficult and tough decisions will come in the industrial sector as well. The main question is when?
70 comments
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  1. +8
    31 October 2023 04: 39
    Even before international sanctions, ships were not cheap - each super icebreaker Leader cost 130 billion rubles, and class 22220 cost 60 billion. At 2023 prices, each Leader is valued at 200 billion rubles. In this case, the deadline for accepting the vessel into operation shifts to the right.

    Who the hell knows what goals the Russian authorities are pursuing when the budgets of only 22 regions of Russia (out of 85) are above 200 rubles...
    Gratuitous payments to the Chechen Republic annually amounted to about 100 billion rubles...Moscow has turned into a cancerous tumor that sucks out more than 4 rubles...
    But the Minister of Finance “earns” one and a half million rubles a month and has 50 sq. meters of real estate does not see or feel problems...
    1. +9
      31 October 2023 08: 58
      When suddenly the price of a ship doubles, and government money is pure waste and corruption. This applies in principle to all goods and products. Yes, prices are rising for components, but not for everything at once, and not twice. So why does an icebreaker or a car, for example, double in price?
      Financial world practice shows that profits over 6-10% increase inflation in the country.
      We want to live within our means and we need strict (even cruel) control over pricing. Cost and no more than a 10% markup. soldier
      1. +2
        31 October 2023 12: 05
        Quote: V.
        When suddenly the price of a ship doubles, and government money is pure waste and corruption.

        These are sanctions and import substitution. When, instead of parts ordered at a specialized plant, you have to organize their production at home, so the cost of the parts immediately includes all the costs of organizing production. Or when, instead of established delivery schemes, you have to break through gray corridors through intermediaries, each of whom must be paid.
        1. -2
          31 October 2023 12: 41
          What you say is happening under wild capitalism, or under the bacchanalia that is now in the country. In a normal country, even under capitalism or socialism, everything is different. Just look, for example, at how industry worked in the USSR. How many ships were built and in what time frame. soldier
          1. +6
            31 October 2023 15: 35
            Quote: V.
            Just look, for example, at how industry worked in the USSR.

            I remember very well how, for example, shipbuilding programs regularly did not coincide with the capabilities of related companies.
            And destroyers appeared without GTZ and KR without air defense. Or the EM URO received a steam turbine power plant due to the lack of capacity for a gas turbine engine (by the way, the first of these EMs entered testing practically unarmed). Or how they surrendered to the BOD fleet without half, or even all of the air defense - some of them are still running around with one air defense system.
            Or even worse - how the fleet ordered ships of pre-war projects already in the late 50s.

            And I don’t even want to talk about the behind-the-scenes squabbling within the fleet itself and between the fleet, the Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry and the land forces, which was expressed in the appearance of ships of absolutely mysterious projects.
            1. -10
              31 October 2023 15: 44
              You simply hate a state called the USSR, and everything was bad for you there. hi
              1. +7
                31 October 2023 17: 41
                Quote: V.
                You simply hate a state called the USSR, and everything was bad for you there. hi

                No. I just lived in the USSR in an average Leningrad family of Soviet engineers. And since both my father and mother traveled on business trips and had relatives outside the paradise cities of the special and first category of supply, I both heard and saw with my own eyes the difference between the storefronts and the rest of the country. I also saw with my own eyes what Industry Group B offered citizens.
                And since I am interested in the history of the fleet, I know a little about the dictates of industry, and about inflated plans, and about the eternal confrontation between boots and burnouts. smile
                1. -3
                  31 October 2023 19: 21
                  You are just an observer and a pessimist, not a creator, you did not see how people tried to build a comfortable country, and there were no inflated plans, but there was incompetence, not a desire to work at full capacity. I myself have a naval education but served in the army and do not remember the confrontation between boots and burnouts (boots). There were teases and jokes, we rocketeers laughed at the tank crews, the aviation laughed at us, the sailors laughed at the infantry, etc.
                  A showcase is good, it shows how to live well and beautifully. By the way, Leningraders had a crooked perception of reality (probably the same as now), my aunt told me this, and she was the secretary of the district party committee in Leningrad, and our family lived in Siberia. hi
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +2
    31 October 2023 05: 53
    The real difficulties began when they calculated the cost of the icebreakers being built.

    In general, for any large project, the so-called. "Feasibility Study" (Feasibility Study), which examines and substantiates all the pros and cons of the project and gives a conclusion on its feasibility. Whether there is such a feasibility study for the Leader icebreakers is unknown. There are just a lot of publications, projects and other chatter.
    So it’s too early to “tear your shirt off your chest” and scream “everyone has screwed up the polymers.”
    1. +3
      31 October 2023 06: 52
      Whether there is such a feasibility study for the Leader icebreakers is unknown.

      As you know!
      Only the price of all this “paper” is lower than the cost of a roll of toilet paper. It would be better to use the analogue method. And PERSONAL interest is always inserted into this documentation. This is what drives up the price.
      As for all these shifts to the right. We don’t know how to get into the real economy, because undersupply of hydrocarbons to the market is lost profit. So feel free to include it in the project costs when you extend the implementation timeline. And no extra funding for completing tasks on time will have the negative effect of delaying the commissioning of a facility for years. During the time of I.V. Stalin, they understood this very well, but did not strive to accelerate inflation and collapse the financial system, unlike their successor. Therefore, a government loan was organized, and these bonds were distributed among the population voluntarily and compulsorily. Thus, the people financed the restoration of their own country. By the way, all obligations were settled (already under Brezhnev).
      Such a decision would make it possible to overcome the financial famine artificially created by the IMF proteges and to re-industrialize the country.
      1. -3
        31 October 2023 09: 27
        Now the situation is better than the USSR, when money was reset and confiscated from the population. Pavlovsk's latest reform, for example.
      2. +3
        31 October 2023 11: 56
        Viktor Leningradets, swung at you with a plus sign without reading to the end. Then I wanted to hit you with a downvote, but I restrained myself and, as a result, left your comment without rating.
        And I didn’t like, as you might guess, the forced sale of bonds at this stage. This will need to be done if the country’s economy completely collapses and a threat to the existence of the state looms. So far I don’t see such a threat, and the authorities themselves convince us that everything is in order by and large.
        Another thing is the trust of citizens in their state, then there will be no need for any coercion with bonds, the people themselves will stand in line if they believe in a quick return on their investments. This happened recently in Egypt, where the authorities decided to dig a second channel of the Suez Canal or double it. Egypt did not even have to look for loans abroad. They issued public loan bonds and more than covered all construction costs in record time, and citizens received income that was higher than the rates on bank deposits.
        But we do not yet have such trust in our financial authorities, and they themselves do not even think of getting involved in such responsibility to citizens. Our Central Bank doesn’t have enough sense to go further than playing with the key rate. This fun reminds me of changing the clock hands to winter/summer time, which our government has been doing for many years, just recently. They have no more important task laughing
        1. +5
          31 October 2023 14: 31
          Alexander!
          I'm glad you read it, I'm just a working retiree who recently returned to this industry after 30 years of working in engineering companies. So to speak, a second youth.
          Well, with a clear glance you can see where we have sailed. So the question is not how it can be better, but how it won’t collapse completely.
          I’ll say this about bonds:
          - if they pay 100 thousand in money, and sign up for a loan for another 100 thousand, then this is much better than collapse, bankruptcy and lockout;
          If, in this paradigm, the State Order turns into State Law, then the misuse and withdrawal of funds to offshore companies will be sharply reduced.
          And the most important thing for the current leadership is that it is necessary to have a strategy for the country’s development and implement the plans. And engaging in populism so that someone will like it is the last thing. Paying for this is a terrible test for the country; under Gorbachev/Yeltsin they have already passed it once.
          So, pluses, this is so-so satisfaction, they took off a star from me - it’s funny when life has already been lived. But there’s no harm in speaking one last time, in case it comes in handy for someone.
        2. +3
          31 October 2023 20: 53
          This will need to be done if the country’s economy completely collapses and a threat to the existence of the state looms. So far I don’t see such a threat, and the authorities themselves convince us that everything is fine by and large

          Then you will need a dictator who, at the cost of great blood, will force the country to take the path of development. There will be slave labor for rations and the hope that the grandchildren will get something in the future.
          Another thing is the trust of citizens in their state, then there will be no need for any coercion with bonds, the people themselves will stand in line if they believe in a quick return on their investments.

          This did not happen in Russia, does not exist and will not happen. There will be ONE OF US, who knows our guts and sees the GOAL for the country, who will force us, despite our age and past merits, to harness ourselves to the cause of saving the Motherland.
          1. 0
            23 February 2024 23: 59
            It will never be like this again. Collapse, yes, is possible, but no dictator can force them to harness themselves to the common cause. The train has left, selfishness and indifference have been cultivated for three, or maybe more, decades. There will be no awareness, there will be individual survival. And then both the West and the East will come for our resources.
  3. +4
    31 October 2023 05: 59
    And it all started with the dollar exchange rate. So they decided to deceive everyone and eat the fish... lousy financiers reap the benefits. Until they make the ruble stable, everything will continue. Why is the government accustomed to plugging holes with the salaries of not leaders, but the poorest doctors, nurses and teachers. it was in 2014, they wrote for a short time, then 2022 again for six months and that’s it, and so on every time.... By the way, in the USSR it was the same, someone still has stacks of beautiful pieces of paper - bonds that have not been redeemed or repaid, and who in the late 40s were given 80% of the salary, and survived on pasture. My father’s mother (alone with 2 young children) went to the collective farm field at night, dug up, collected frozen potatoes and baked pancakes, like potato pancakes, from thawed potatoes, soggy into jelly, abandoned by the collective farm, but which could not be collected.
  4. +1
    31 October 2023 07: 24
    And when did something shift to the left or become cheaper? It’s always more to the right and more expensive, it’s not news, it’s not even worth writing about. There will be news when something is much earlier and much cheaper, but there is enough dullness as it is, and every day they pour out more negativity.
    1. +5
      31 October 2023 20: 04
      Quote: Vadim S
      And when did something shift to the left or become cheaper?
      Well, we have one order shifted to the left. The military asked us to hurry up. We strained ourselves, really strained ourselves (it seems we even went out on Saturdays - it was a long time ago, I don’t remember exactly) and did it a month earlier. We came to the PZ to hand over work. They were delighted: “Well done, we finished it a month ahead of schedule!” and cut our labor costs for this month (they gave us less money according to the order). Well, do you think there were still people who wanted to shift the deadlines to the left?
  5. +1
    31 October 2023 07: 31
    But wouldn’t it work out with LNG along the Northern Sea Route as with a pipeline to Europe? They waited until we had invested a lot of money in pipelines and said thank you, we don’t need it, and they also blew them up.
    We’ll also put money into icebreakers and the client will refuse, the LNG is of the wrong composition and not democratic. It would be good if Asia agreed to buy LNG at a low price.
    And also, what kind of profit is expected from all this for ordinary residents of the country.
    It’s clear about effective top managers, as well as about big officials, these will always snatch it. soldier
    1. +5
      31 October 2023 07: 41
      But wouldn’t it work out with LNG along the Northern Sea Route as with a pipeline to Europe? They waited until we had invested a lot of money in pipelines and said thank you, we don’t need it, and they also blew them up.

      Easy!
      Taking into account the weak state of our NATO fleet, AUKUS and the countries of the Pacific region that have joined them are capable of organizing a blockade of our polar fleet at the exits to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Special thanks to the Tsar Liberator for Alaska and the Bering Strait!
      So you have to fight for everything.
  6. 0
    31 October 2023 08: 07
    Is it Poltavchenko who is now trying to do something? What questions then... It's time to transfer to medicine
    1. +1
      31 October 2023 08: 26
      The problem is that the dollar exchange rate depends primarily on the rush demand for the dollar and the greatly inflated rate of profit of our entrepreneurs; the uncontrolled rate of profit (we don’t even have an excess profit tax) accelerates prices, upsets the balance of supply and demand, and together creates inflation.
      1. -2
        31 October 2023 09: 25
        The Central Bank is fighting the rush demand for the dollar, quite successfully. And in a competitive environment, excess profits make it possible to redirect production to segments of high demand. This is how entrepreneurs meet the needs of the SVO, and automakers restart factories. Prices are systematically rising due to state monopolies and unproductive budget spending, which stimulate the import and export of capital.
  7. 0
    31 October 2023 09: 15
    The decision to give the leader to Zvezda was stupid, a kind of prize for Sechin in the hope of flooding all the shoals of the new shipyard with money. It’s completely unclear what they include in the price, other than terrible logistics. The leader is “moving to the right”; perhaps it would be better to cut him off if the political situation changes.
  8. 0
    31 October 2023 10: 53
    In February 2023, ZiO Podolsk began manufacturing packages for two Ritm-400 reactors.
  9. 0
    31 October 2023 10: 53
    and I propose to turn transport ships into semi-icebreakers. Most transport ships have a bulb, reminiscent of the underwater ram of armadillos of the last century, and it prevents ships from running into ice and breaking it. . This bulb must be cut off from all ships, because it does not bring any benefit. The fact is that all shipbuilders have become stupid and think that wave resistance is high, but in fact friction resistance is 80-90% for slow-moving ships, and wave resistance is no more than 5-10%, and the same is the shape resistance. but the hull itself creates waves and stern and not just the bow. so the bulb reduces resistance by a maximum of 1-2%. And if it is cut at an angle, then transport ships will receive an icebreaking tip and will be able to break, if not thick, but at least medium ice up to a meter thick.
    and if, in addition to diesel engines, gas turbines with a small supply of kerosene are installed, then the power on the shafts will increase many times over - because the turbines are very light and very powerful, but not very economical. therefore, you can carry them with a small addition of weight and turn them on only in heavy ice, which is rare. therefore, most of the route can be completed without nuclear icebreakers.
    1. +3
      31 October 2023 12: 09
      and I propose to turn transport ships into semi-icebreakers.
      Your proposal has been accepted and will be considered at the next meeting of Sportloto in the 6th chamber. Please do not be late and prepare the surface of the buttock for the prophylactic injection. It won't hurt lol
      Or maybe you really are a genius, and all shipbuilders are idiots? Do you know at what thickness of ice on rivers and sea waters all movement of watercraft that do not have an ice-class hull ceases? Even with 10 cm of ice, not a single captain will climb out into the water area, but you want to break up the ice an order of magnitude thicker? Now estimate how much the ship will lose in carrying capacity if its hull is made 5-10 mm thicker, and this will have to be done along the entire perimeter below the waterline, at least. Of course, they make special ice-class ships, but remake ordinary ones by cutting off the bulbs... and you will be cured... lol
      1. -1
        31 October 2023 13: 17

        Saburov Alexander
        I will answer you in your own style: your mental abilities are too small to understand the problems of shipbuilding. Firstly: I came up with a bow end for icebreaking ships of a completely new type - it will not break ice like conventional icebreakers, but will cut the ice floes into small squares, and then will drive these ice squares under the edges of the ice field, so that the pieces of ice floes will not be hit the sides of this ship and the channel behind it will remain completely clear of ice, unlike conventional icebreakers.
        Secondly, you apparently don’t know what the strength of a ship’s plating depends on. A long time ago, a friend of mine designed a section of a ship's hull that was supposed to withstand ice impacts. But this required a lot of thickening of the skin. then his senior comrades advised him to simply install additional blank frames in order to divide the existing frame into two halves, and from this the strength of the skin increased many times, and the weight of the additional blank frames turned out to be relatively small.
        1. +1
          31 October 2023 13: 40
          Geniy ​​(Mr. X), I look forward to the implementation of your proposals in practice. I dream of popping champagne at the launch of the first ship modernized using your technology. If you don’t mind, give me a cut off bulb from this ship as a souvenir. laughing
          1. +1
            31 October 2023 13: 50
            Geniy ​​(Mr. X), I look forward to the implementation of your proposals in practice.

            And without any jokes, I am going to implement this assumption. I really don’t know if my money is enough to rebuild at least a small vessel such as a tug or barge, but if I build a fiberglass model of an icebreaker shape and test it at least in a puddle or in a frozen pond, I’ll see what the result will be.
        2. +5
          31 October 2023 15: 51
          Quote: geniy
          Firstly: I came up with a bow end for icebreaking ships of a completely new type - it will not break ice like conventional icebreakers, but will cut the ice floes into small squares, and then will drive these ice squares under the edges of the ice field, so that the pieces of ice floes will not be hit the sides of this ship and the channel behind it will remain completely clear of ice, unlike conventional icebreakers.

          Hello Mr. Heinrich Wass. smile
          The shape of the icebreaker's bow, which allows ice fragments to be driven under the ice cover on the sides of the channel, was invented half a century ago. Our first icebreaker with a “flat bow” was the modernized “Mudyug”:

          Behind him is the ICE series "Captain Sorokin".

          The price for a clean channel was a deterioration in seaworthiness, controllability and a decrease in ice penetration. And if you can put up with this on ICE, then for transport it is unacceptable.

          I also really want to see a fully loaded transport operating in raids. And especially - on the power of the power plant required for the operation of the TR as an ICE, and on the fuel bill that will go to the owner based on the results of the “self-breaking” wiring. smile
          1. +1
            31 October 2023 19: 33
            Hello Mr. Heinrich Wass. smile
            The shape of the icebreaker's bow, which allows ice fragments to be driven under the ice cover on the sides of the channel, was invented half a century ago. Our first icebreaker with a “flat bow” was the modernized “Mudyug”:

            You are seriously confusing me with someone. First of all, I am not Heinrich Wass. and I don't even know who he is.
            Secondly, in many respects you are right:
            The shape of the icebreaker's bow, which allows ice fragments to be driven under the ice cover on the sides of the channel, was invented half a century ago. Our first icebreaker with a “flat bow” was the modernized “Mudyug”:
            My idea really has a lot in common with the Mudyug icebreaker - the principle of driving ice under the bottom. But on the other hand, I have some fundamental differences from the Mudyug form (in particular, I have longitudinal saws that cut ice). so the ice-breaking ability of my idea should be excellent. But seaworthiness is a big question mark - slamming is possible. But I have countermeasures against this. On the other hand, there are doubts. And therefore a real test is needed - at least on a model. so I'm not jumping for joy - nothing has been tested yet.
            but you are mistaken about working in raids. I hope that ships with such design features will easily cut ice like a hot knife through butter.
            1. +1
              1 November 2023 10: 28
              Quote: geniy
              But on the other hand, I have some fundamental differences from the Mudyug form (in particular, I have longitudinal saws that cut ice).

              The shape of the bow of an icebreaking vessel with longitudinal ribs for controlled breaking of ice and “whiskers” spreading pieces of ice along the sides of the channel was described in 1988-1989 in one of the shipbuilding magazines - in an article on icebreakers with unconventional contours.
              1. +1
                1 November 2023 10: 39
                Just in case, I gave pluses to both colleagues who continued the discussion about icebreaking ships. I realized that it was useless for me, who had no idea about “slamming,” to continue the discussion with the genius (geniy). I hope we won’t have to wait long for a breakthrough in such shipbuilding, but for now we can start cutting off all the excess in the bow. feel
              2. 0
                1 November 2023 22: 24
                in 1988-1989 in one of the magazines

                Yes, you are absolutely right: the collection Man of the Sea Technology “Behind the Stern is a Clean Channel” pp. 188-196. But I have big differences: a fairly large slope of the bottom at the front of the hull from the waterline to the bottom. and longitudinal ribs with teeth - like real saws. and I also have a sharp nasal tip.
                And also for transport ships, I came up with special protection for the sides in the area at the waterline and the ice belt. Moreover, this protection will be removable - when the ship moves into warm waters, this protection will be quickly removed - maybe in one hour.
                I also want to deepen the Dmitry Laptev Strait from 11 m to at least 20 m, but not immediately, but gradually - in stages.
                1. +1
                  2 November 2023 05: 40
                  I also want to deepen the Dmitry Laptev Strait from 11 m to at least 20 m
                  Maybe it’s better to wait until the ocean thaws and go straight along the deep fairway?
                  Have you and Dmitry Laptev agreed on the excavation of its strait? I would like to understand the scale of digging in length and width and how will we designate the fairway? The buoys will be carried away by ice, should we trust the echo sounder? wink
                  1. 0
                    2 November 2023 12: 45
                    I also want to deepen the Dmitry Laptev Strait from 11 m to at least 20 m
                    Maybe it’s better to wait until the ocean thaws and go straight along the deep fairway?
                    Have you and Dmitry Laptev agreed on the excavation of its strait? I would like to understand the scale of digging in length and width and how will we designate the fairway? The buoys will be carried away by ice, should we trust the echo sounder? wink

                    But you are laughing in vain. Many people forget that the seabed is not at all a flat and smooth plane, and on the seabed, just like on land, there are hillocks and depressions. So - the depth of the Laptev Strait is 11 meters - this is the SMALLEST depth in terms of the height of the hillocks, and yet there are depressions between them. And if you only remove the tops of underwater hills and only a small width not much larger than the width of the ships - for example, about a hundred meters wide, then the volume of dredging work may turn out to be quite small...
                    And you are in vain arguing that you need to come to an agreement with Dmitry Laptev. It will be much more difficult to reach an agreement with the leaders of the Russian state and obtain permission to carry out this work, especially since I would like to dump the removed cargo right there in the strait - by deepening some places and raising the bottom in neighboring ones. I would also like to charge a fee for the passage of ships through the deepened canal. But before that, money will need to be found for dredging. .. but I repeat - the beginning of the trouble is to tear down the tops of the underwater hills first. Yes, I also know about the buoy problem. I propose to solve this by submerging the buoys with a steel cable using bottom anchors and underwater electric motors, and there is also an option to ensure that there is no ice in the strait in winter.
                    and then there is the most accurate satellite navigation, which, in principle, should ensure the navigation of ships along the fairway with an accuracy of several centimeters.
                    1. 0
                      3 November 2023 09: 00
                      geniy (Mr. X), maybe I’m laughing in vain... I know from the history of mankind when the most crazy ideas eventually came true. Take any science fiction writers and the same Jules Verne... And this is how it came out: we swim under water and fly to the moon. I was really embarrassed by the absolute illiteracy of J. Verne in describing the simplest everyday things of his time. And it turned out that he could predict the development of future technologies, but absolutely did not understand the elementary state in the present time. Take for example from “The Children of Captain Grant,” how they trudged through the Andes, were caught in an avalanche and a landslide, were left without a single scratch and did not even lose a single teaspoon from the service. And then the condor managed to lift an adult boy and when the bird was shot, the boy landed successfully without breaking his “tail.”
                      Don’t you find these fantasies consonant with yours, with electric winches on buoys and the conversion of existing ships to convert them into a semi-icebreaking fleet? Where will you get electricity for the winches in the Laptev Strait? Oh, yes, we don’t count the money it costs to stretch a cable there from the mainland, because it’s pennies compared to digging a channel in the ocean. Thank you that they agreed to dump the seized soil nearby and not transport it to the mainland. What if Greta Thunberg catches you doing this? Oh what will happen...
                      I can give you an idea. Use nuclear tests for dredging, which our enemies are forcing us to resume. After all, it already happened when in the USSR they wanted to use nuclear explosions to create a canal to transfer the Pechora flow to the Volga, to save the shallowing Caspian Sea. Three lakes in craters from explosions have remained in the taiga since then... But the Caspian obviously got scared and suddenly flooded coastal cities and towns, without waiting for the Pechora water.
                      1. +1
                        6 November 2023 15: 42
                        Don’t you find these fantasies consonant with yours, with electric winches on buoys and the conversion of existing ships to convert them into a semi-icebreaking fleet? Where will you get electricity for the winches in the Laptev Strait? Oh, yes, we don’t count the money it costs to stretch a cable there from the mainland, because it’s pennies compared to digging a channel in the ocean. ...

                        ships of the semi-icebreaking fleet are not only a special bow end, but in addition also an attached armor belt, which will have its own buoyancy and an inclination angle of about 20 degrees. This belt will be easy to take off and put on.
                        and electricity for buoys - firstly sea waves - even small 0,5 m high swinging buoys with a small electric generator and batteries. and there may also be a wind power generator.
                        chrome
  10. +7
    31 October 2023 11: 04
    On October 29, the process of preparation for loading the first Ritm 200 reactor into the hull of the Nuclear Icebreaker Chukotka began. good

    The Baltic Plant has been transferred to the management of Rosatom, so we will build everything. Rosatom has been appointed chief in the development of the Northern Sea Route. We cannot make low-speed diesel engines for tankers of 100, we will have them running on Rhythmah-000. Those who want to keep abreast of events are official websites "Rosatom", "Atomflot", "Baltic Shipyard" to help.
    1. +5
      31 October 2023 12: 32
      will they go to "Rhythm-400" with us?
      All that remains is to reach an agreement with foreign ports so that they allow free entry and docking of ships with nuclear installations in their country. In the meantime, you can count such ports all over the world on the fingers of one hand.
      Andrey, you have sailed all the seas and oceans and should know about this. Or am I behind the times and everything has already changed in recent years?
      1. +3
        31 October 2023 13: 17
        Saburov_Alexander 53. How would we build transshipment terminals on Kamchatka and the Kola Peninsula. That’s where nuclear-powered transport ships will go. Novatek has already delivered self-propelled giant LNG barges at 400 meters. Koryak and Saam UGS on the Kola and Kamchatka Peninsulas. Rosatom considers the use of nuclear-powered transport ships on the NSR to be promising - design and technical documentation is already being prepared. Plus, Russia has sent the Kazakhs away from the Baimskoye copper deposit - construction has already begun. And most importantly, the state company Rosatom is in command of the NSR, everything is under it.
        1. +2
          31 October 2023 13: 56
          tralflot1832 (Andrey S.), thank you for clarifying the transshipment terminals in our ports, and not the delivery of oil, LNG or containers to foreign ports of destination by ships with a nuclear installation. I hope that if you decided to make such vessels, you carefully calculated the overall benefit and loss due to overload. I just remember the fantasies of some of our specialists who proposed converting the Akula nuclear submarine into underwater tankers for sailing under the ice of the Northern Sea Route.
          About the “bortanula of the Kazakhs from the Baimsky copper ..” you are intrigued, decipher what we are talking about?
          1. +2
            31 October 2023 15: 07
            Saburov Alexander 53. The Baimskoye deposit was to be developed by KAZ Minerals. The sale took place in July 2023.
            1. +2
              31 October 2023 15: 32
              I found Abramovich’s ear, in 2019 Roma sold the Baimskoye field to the Kazakhs for $900 million.
        2. 0
          31 October 2023 14: 38
          No matter how big these barges are blown up like the Nord Streams.
    2. 0
      31 October 2023 17: 51
      Where can you find about “transferred to the management of Rosatom”? It seems that Kostin was against it and wanted to make money from Rosatom.
  11. +1
    31 October 2023 11: 17
    A shift to the right automatically leads to higher construction costs. Here somewhere is an article about how the Americans built their nuclear submarine fleet. Admiral Rickover extracted regular funding from Congress and saved money on this.
  12. +3
    31 October 2023 11: 52
    I just have one question. Why does the width of icebreakers being built not match the size of Capesize ships? How to drive Panamaxes, Afromaxes, Suezmaxes along the NSR
    1. +4
      31 October 2023 13: 54
      APASUS. Especially for you. During this navigation along the NSR from Murmansk to the Bering Strait, two icebreakers Taimyr and Arktika carried a record-breaking capsize-sized bulk carrier "Gingo" in 13 days with a cargo of 164,5 thousand tons of iron ore concentrate.
      1. +1
        31 October 2023 20: 02
        АPASUS. along the NSR from Murmansk to the Bering Strait, two icebreakers Taimyr and Arktika carried a record-breaking capsize bulk carrier "Gingo" in terms of water displacement in 13 days. With a cargo of 164,5 thousand tons

        But can you tell me which strait they passed through: Dmitry Laptev or probably the Sannikov Strait?
        1. +2
          31 October 2023 22: 08
          qeniy.Everything that is known about the route of the bulk carrier "Gingo"
          1. +1
            31 October 2023 23: 25
            Unfortunately, your additional information does not say what kind of strait it was. but maybe you at least know the draft of that ship on that voyage?
            a record-breaking capsize bulk carrier "Gingo" in terms of water displacement. With a cargo of 164,5 thousand tons
    2. +3
      31 October 2023 14: 01
      How to drive Panamaxes, Afromaxes, Suezmaxes along the NSR
      No way!!! No one even sets such a goal, since in many sections of the NSR the depths do not allow such huge container ships to sail without the risk of running aground and breaking in half. Not to mention calling at our northern ports like Tiksi and many others in case of breakdown and repair. Hence the exorbitant insurance for all ships on the NSR, which significantly eats up the savings from the short journey. Add here the cost of icebreaker assistance and restrictions on cargo that cannot be exposed to frost. And most importantly, when Panamax is loaded with containers in Tokyo or South Korea or Shanghai, on the way to Rotterdam or Copenhagen, as they like to draw a long route through the Suez Canal, it will stop several times for unloading, in Singapore, Colombo, Alexandria, Piraeus, Naples, Marseilles, etc., dumping hundreds of containers and loading new ones for customers. But along the NSR you will have to assemble a container ship without distribution all the way to Europe, and just find so much cargo to deliver from one point to another. But our media do not like to talk about such disadvantages of the SPM, but only about the advantages.
      1. +1
        31 October 2023 14: 22
        Saburov Alexander 53. Like sometimes read the comments. Look above, everything goes along the NSR according to the draft. And a photo in the studio for the mood, this is how you should take a selfie.
        lolPhoto by Andrey Yakovlev FSUE Atomflot. This seal becomes the star of Atomflot.
        1. +1
          1 November 2023 09: 19
          Andrey, I have been following events on the Northern Sea Route for twenty years now and read with pleasure about all our successes, incl. with support for individual tankers and bulk carriers of the Panamax and Suezmax series. But you must admit, this happened in the summer and under exceptionally favorable ice conditions, when it was possible to move further away from the shore and shallows.
          We like to compare the NSR with the southern route exclusively along one length, for example, from Tokyo to Rotterdam and around the whole of Europe through Gibraltar. But they do not write that most of the cargo can be destined and unloaded in Piraeus or Naples. So, to be fair, let’s extend the NSR to Piraeus and what will happen? Those. we need to talk not about replacing the southern route, but about redistributing part of the cargo intended for northern Europe.
          And about dangerous shallows on the NSR. They exist and so far limit the navigation of the largest container ships, which require a safe depth of 16 meters - the standard of the Panama and Suez Canals, hence the names Panamax and Suezmax, taking into account the depth and length, width of the Panama Canal locks.
          But I can assume that in the future the NSR will become even shorter and safer, when the ice melts and the route goes directly from Murmansk to Chukotka, north of all the islands.
  13. +3
    31 October 2023 15: 28
    Alexey RA (Alexey), dear, I will support you today only 99%. Why? I have already noted a couple of times on the site that the collapse of shipbuilding and ship repair in the country is the excellent work of USC in import substitution. ZHORA, DORA and LORA OSK (wives of responsible employees, children..., mistresses...OSK) loved to leave St. Petersburg for Finland on Thursday evenings on business trips. We spent the night from Thursday to Friday in a cozy Finnish hotel with a wonderful dinner, held negotiations with Finnish partners on Friday, then a weekend with shopping trips, a sauna on the shore of a lake, and on Sunday evening - in St. Petersburg. Only in 2022, Mr. Budnichenko, the director of Sevmash, ensured that Sevmash manufactured bearings for shafts in Chukotka. The weight of one bearing is 25 tons. No one at USC had done this before. At Sevmash, a new chamber electric furnace was installed in 2022. For nuclear submarines, the bearings are smaller... And before that, all 4 icebreakers were made by Finland. Import substitution since 2014, it seems... Moreover, bankers from VTB (the new management of USC), in September 2023, found a huge financial hole in USC... After the President’s magical kick-off, it suddenly turned out that there are no electricians and service technicians in St. Petersburg electrical and radio equipment that can work in reactors, and there is nowhere and no one to prepare them. From the Severodvinsk SPO "Arctic" the men lived for months on business trips. "Ural" was delivered. Now SPO "Artika", like once the Ship Repair Center "Zvezdochka", should create 8 branches around the country that will carry out electrical installation work.
    1. +2
      31 October 2023 17: 46
      Quote: Tests
      And before that, all 4 icebreakers were made by Finland.

      A road trodden over the years - see "Taimyr" and "Vaigach". smile
      Although, PMSM, with the volume of imported components that were planned for our ICE, it was easier to clear customs once the icebreaker hull (at NN percent readiness) as a complete set, than to run each part through customs, and then repeatedly transport parts to replace the ones that were out of order during installation. smile
  14. +3
    31 October 2023 15: 48
    Saburov_Alexander53 (Alex), dear, on October 03, 2023, more than 300 containers with products from forestry companies of the Arkhangelsk region were loaded onto the Chinese ship “Xin Xin Hai” at the outport of Arkhangelsk Economy. Drawing all the wealth to the Celestial Empire for the timber merchants of Karelia, Komi, Arkhangelsk, and Vologda regions of Russian Railways is the path to bankruptcy. The PRC was even interested in pellets from Arkhangelsk. In the Arkhangelsk region, 6 importing companies of this product were left without European sales markets after March 2022. They now have pellets, like shoe polish from Uncle Matroskin the cat - they’re just piled up! Our officials only woke up in November 2022 that some of the remote villages, where heroism is delivered to the north every year, for some reason receive light and heat from fuel oil or coal from Kuzbass. And manufacturers of pellet boilers in the Russian Federation are still trying to find their niche. Therefore, if they resume the construction of barges on the Ob, Lena and Yenisei, there is something to load the Northern Sea Route with. And more about Rosatom.
    Mr. Mishustin signed the REGULATION of the Government of the Russian Federation dated September 22, 2023 No. 2555-r and approved a comprehensive plan for the development of the Arkhangelsk transport hub for the period until 2035.
    "Name of activity: 2. Construction of a marine loading terminal
    lead-zinc concentrate on the Novaya Zemlya archipelago. Note: 1, 5.
    Type of document (result): commissioning act.
    Responsible executor, other bodies and organizations (their branches) involved in the implementation of activities: State Atomic Energy Corporation Rosatom, joint stock company First Mining Company.
    Implementation date: 2026."
    Notes:
    1 It is planned to attract funds from extra-budgetary sources for the implementation of the event
    5 The amount of funds and sources of financial support for the implementation of the event at the expense of the federal budget will be clarified during the formation of the federal
    law on the federal budget for the corresponding period within the framework of the relevant state programs of the Russian Federation, as well as upon approval
    financial models of projects, subject to making the necessary decisions."
    The same Order will finally allow a new deep-water section of the port of Arkhangelsk to be built north of Mudyug Island.
    1. 0
      1 November 2023 09: 31
      Testov (Evgeniy), thank you for your participation and politeness. And then sometimes they hang all the dogs and come up with something that I didn’t even try to think about. I already answered Andrei a little higher that I rejoice at all our successes in developing the Northern Sea Route and never doubted its feasibility. But I am surprised at some journalists who almost buried the Southern route through the Suez Canal in the near future, when we reach the NSR. Therefore, I only noted the objective difficulties with the EMS, which cannot be eliminated and which sometimes become insurmountable at the present time. request
  15. 0
    31 October 2023 18: 49
    It would be better if ferries were built to supply their western enclave, with a waiting list of three months. These icebreakers are only for the enrichment of the oil and gas oligarchy!
  16. +3
    31 October 2023 19: 33
    Alexey RA (Alexey), if only “Tamyr” and “Vaigach”!
    The well-deserved and over-deserved "Captain Belousov", like "Voima", were born in Helsinki and have been working since 1954. Oldies "Tor" (born in 1964) and "Dudinka" (born in 1970) of the Tarmo project. You posted a photo of "Mudyuga" - the entire series of 3 icebreakers was born in Finland. "Captain Sorokin" of project 1101 - the entire series of 4 icebreakers, from the same place, "Vyartsilya". "Captain Chechkin" of project 1105 - all 6 icebreakers were born in Helsinki. How can one not remember the R-1039 Ermak project? LAO made Project 97 the largest series for everyone, and that’s all...
    1. +2
      1 November 2023 10: 32
      Quote: Tests
      if only “Tamyr” and “Vaigach”!

      I just took only the extreme case - icebreakers with nuclear power plants built abroad.
      I decided to skip the ICE from a conventional foreign-built power plant due to their large number - the Finnish shipbuilding industry worked like hell for the civilian and military fleet of the USSR. smile
  17. +1
    31 October 2023 20: 51
    My deep couch opinion.
    We need icebreakers. And more. And different.
    The government needs to carefully look at the new pricing.
    And we also need military icebreakers with weapons and, above all, good air defense
    1. 0
      31 October 2023 22: 57
      Icebreakers are needed not only for navigation along the entire Northern Sea Route; in the future there may be a significant increase in the transportation of liquefied gas. As they write, by 2030 it is planned to produce 64 million tons of fuel annually. 80% of them plan to supply to Asian countries, this is about 50 million tons
  18. 0
    1 November 2023 10: 10
    Will we provide an icebreaker fleet from the budget to transport gas to unfriendly countries? How lovely.
  19. 0
    1 November 2023 12: 37
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: V.
    You simply hate a state called the USSR, and everything was bad for you there. hi

    No. I just lived in the USSR in an average Leningrad family of Soviet engineers. And since both my father and mother traveled on business trips and had relatives outside the paradise cities of the special and first category of supply, I both heard and saw with my own eyes the difference between the storefronts and the rest of the country. I also saw with my own eyes what Industry Group B offered citizens.
    And since I am interested in the history of the fleet, I know a little about the dictates of industry, and about inflated plans, and about the eternal confrontation between boots and burnouts. smile

    good
  20. 0
    1 November 2023 16: 12
    Saburov_Alexander53 (Alex), dear, Today, 09:19 you posted a new comment with a map of the Northern Sea Route. There is an error on the map: the port of Vitino is shown on the site of the port of Onega in the Arkhangelsk region. Vitino is a port in the Kandalaksha district of the Murmansk region (less than 10 km south-southwest of Kandalaksha), the nearest railway. station - White Sea (on the electrified section of the Oktyabrskaya railway). Diesel locomotives pull cargo to Onega (the Wonguda-Onega section of the Northern Railway is not electrified).
  21. -1
    5 November 2023 17: 41
    Well, as you wanted - capitalism...
    The market and theirs decided everything...
  22. +1
    6 November 2023 23: 02
    I just read it today. Period 1938 - 1941. The number of factories and enterprises built is 543... Of course, the West helped there with technology and engineers, but still... Now we are reaping the fruits of the Yeltsin-Gaidar policy.