Naval artillery

130
Naval artillery

Several recent articles have shown that we need to seriously talk about naval artillery, its features, applications and problems that arose. That is, we will briefly try to determine what the artillery of the era of sail is in general, and what it is eaten with.

Before the invention of guns


Perhaps the first prototype of naval artillery was invented and implemented by Gaius Julius Caesar (here we rely on the “Comments on the Gali War”), who ordered the installation of catapults on ships. Previously the favorite tactic fleet In antiquity there was ramming and boarding.



It is clear that firing at ships from catapults firing along a hinged trajectory did not make much sense, because hitting a “ship” type target was possible only by a miracle. Such proto-artillery was used well in an attack against the coast.

The next step was taken by the Byzantines, who invented Greek fire and flamethrowers. It was already quite weapon close combat, which could be used against other ships.

4
Using Greek fire.

But the Chinese came closest to creating artillery in the form in which we imagine it.

In 1293, the Emperor of China, Kublai Khan, during his invasion of Java, among other things, used barrels made of bamboo installed on ships, which fired spears or bullets (a prototype of grapeshot), throwing them out with the help of the combustion energy of black powder. These guns were appreciated throughout Southeast Asia, because from 1300, guns of this type (ketbangs) spread throughout the region.

Finally, by 1330–1350, both Europe and Asia almost simultaneously came to the invention of conventional cannons. The first recorded naval battle where cannon was used was the Hundred Years' War, the Battle of Arnhemdein (23 September 1338).

The fact is that in this battle there was one ship (English Christopher), who was armed with three cannons and one handgun. It is noteworthy that the firearm did not turn out to be a superweapon; the British lost that battle, and he himself, armed with guns, Christopher The French captured it by good old boarding.

Trial and error period


In the XNUMXth century, cannons became mandatory on almost all ships.

There was only one thing that stopped it - before the invention of the gun carriage and its attachment to the side, the recoil from the shot was great, and the braking distance of the gun exceeded the width of the ship. Therefore, guns at that time were placed either at the bow or at the stern. One or two cannons in the center were large-caliber cannons - “basilisks”; one or two smaller guns were placed nearby - serpents, sacrs and falcones. Then the question of at least some standardization arose.

Since the artillery systems were completely raw, one gun could differ from another, both in length and in the internal diameter of the barrel, the intuitive solution came to divide the guns according to the weight of the projectile. Thus, the basilisks became 50- or 60-pound cannons, the serpents or culverins - 17-20 pounds, the sacra - 8-9 pounds, the falcones - 4- or 6-pounders.

2
Armament of a French galley of 1736.

The problem was that the pound was not the same in different countries, and this created certain problems. For example, in England the pound was equal to 0,453 kg, but in France it was already 0,4895 kg, in Spain - 0,4608 kg, in Russia the artillery pound was 0,4914 kg (established personally by Peter I in 1700), in Netherlands - 0,4941 kg, etc.

That is, in all countries, despite seemingly approximately the same caliber scale (and then caliber meant either the weight of the cannonball or the length of the barrel, and not the internal diameter, as we are used to), the dimensions of the barrel and the diameter of the guns were different. For example, a gun with a length of 20 calibers was a gun with a barrel length of 20 diameters of its core.

Finally, in 1712, the Danish Colonel Albrecht Borgard, invited to England as an expert, introduced the standardization of ship armament values. The data is summarized in a table.

In 1702, English artillery was standardized and took the form shown in the table:

1

Well, guns have a lower projectile mass.

By length, the guns were divided into long (length from 20 calibers), short from 9 to 15 calibers, and howitzers (which included mortars), up to 6 calibers. This system was entrenched in the English fleet right up to the XNUMXth century.

As for the French and Spanish fleets, after 1714 they carried guns with cannon ball weights of 36, 24, 18, 12, 8 and 6 pounds. Due to the greater value of the pound, the French 36-pound core was equivalent to the British 39 pounds. But the heavier gun also loaded more slowly, so the British 32-pounder had an advantage over the French 36-pounder in loading speed.

The fastest-firing of the heavy ones turned out to be 24-pound cannons, which the Dutch loved very much; in the battle of Dogger Bank (1781) they managed to fire one shot every 55 seconds. For comparison: well-trained English teams fired two shots every three minutes from 32-pounders; the rate of fire of French 36-pounders was one shot every three minutes.

Cannon production


Initially, guns were produced in the following way: several strips of iron were cast, which were connected to each other by forging around a wooden core and reinforced with connecting rings. It is clear that such a gun was largely defective, threatened to burst along any seam, and had low accuracy and reliability.

That is why, around the 1560s, guns began to be cast as a single unit, and a special blank, a core, was inserted into the molten metal in the center, which formed the bore. Next, the gun cooled down, the blank was removed or crumbled, and after processing the gun was ready for use.

3
32 lb lower deck battery on the English battleship Victory.

It would seem simple? No, it's not easy.

Because of this casting, some of the guns were of poor quality - the cast iron cools unevenly, and due to the temperature difference between the core and the cast iron barrel, shells were formed inside the channel, which led to ruptures of the guns during firing.

In 1729, the Swede Moritz proposed a new technology - the cannons were cast in one piece from gray cast iron, and then the barrel was drilled out. A machine for drilling trunks was demonstrated for the first time in Lyon, France in 1734. And starting from the 1740s, guns began to be manufactured using this technology.

However, until the 1760s it was not possible to drill the trunk strictly horizontally. Most often, the barrel cone went at a slight angle to the side, and as a result, the wall thickness was uneven. Which again led to increased wear and, as a consequence, to rupture of the guns.

Because of these problems with the manufacture of iron cannons, large caliber bronze artillery finally disappeared from the scene only in the 1780s. But even in 1812, some ships still had light 12-, 9-, 6- and 3-pounder guns. Also, until the end of the Age of Sail, bronze was used to make land mortars and howitzers; on ships, these types of guns were mainly cast iron.

Guns in battle


How many people does it take to operate one cannon?

This is not an idle question. After all, the same 32-pound gun weighs 3,85 tons.

Initially, gun crews were divided into “fours”. This was very convenient, since initially different types of guns were serviced by calculations that were multiples of four. A little later (in the 1720s) this rule ceased to apply; 32-pound guns were served by a crew of 14 people, 24-pound guns by 12 people, 18-pound guns by 11 people. 12-pound - from 8 people, 9- or 8-pound - from 6 people, respectively.

5
Firing from an 18-pounder French cannon. Apparently, the battle is fought on two sides, since in the normal version the cannon should be serviced by 11 people.

Let's take the crew of a 32-pound gun. It consisted of 1 gunner, 1 assistant gunner, two people supplying charges and cannonballs, and... that’s it. The remaining 10 people were divided into fives and either pulled the cannon to the port or rolled it inward.

Yes, one calculation related to two guns - the left and right sides, respectively. But most battles were fought by ships with only one side, because being hit by two fires sharply reduced the intensity of fire and actually meant a complete loss of the battle.

In combat instructions (Articles of War) on the English fleet (1745), article XXXV reported the following: “The captain of a ship is obliged to maintain discipline on the ship entrusted to him and often conduct exercises of artillery teams with great guns and small arms (to render them more expert in time of battle), and also record in ship's log the time of these exercises".

However, the law is one thing, and its execution is another. Everything depended on the specific captain. For example, on Nelson's Victory, exercises were held... once a week.

In general, at Trafalgar, approximately half of Nelson's squadron had poor artillery training and had last conducted gunnery training three or more months ago.

6
Battle of Trafalgar, 1805.

And that was not the whole problem. Here, for example, is what midshipman William Pringle Green wrote from Conqueror:

“On many of His Majesty’s ships, gun crews trained with the same guns. Although logic dictates that the guns should be different each time, in reality, especially during a long voyage, all decks could be filled with supplies, sailors' belongings, rolled up hammocks, etc.

As a result, during the battle, a not very pleasant feature was revealed: those guns with which they trained were cleaned, scrubbed, ready for battle, and fired perfectly. On the remaining guns, malfunctions were often observed, for example, rust in the barrel, or a damaged carriage, or weakened and frayed ropes. In battle, these guns often self-exploded, bounced to the side, fell off their carriages, and came off their mounts.

Separately, it is worth mentioning the tools that are used to care for guns. Sponges that were not used for a long period often simply crumbled, the banners suddenly turned out to be bald or broken, but if you add in the fuss during battle, manipulation of ammunition, etc., it is clear that such consequences should not seem extraordinary.”

Carronades


To reduce the weight of the gun and the number of personnel servicing it, the English Navy came up with an unusual option. This is a large caliber gun, but short and thin-walled. Such guns could fire not far away, but with large-caliber cannonballs. Moreover, at close range, these cannonballs did not pierce, but broke through the side of the enemy ship, forming a pile of wood chips.

It must be said that the topic was not new for the British - they tried to use lightweight “drake” cannons back during the Anglo-Dutch wars, but by the ordinance of 1712 they were removed from the fleet.

So, in the 1780s it was proposed to replace the cannons on the upper deck with carroanades. At that time, the British had mostly 9- or 6-pound long guns on their superstructures and quarterdecks, weighing either 1,585 tons or 1,068 tons, respectively. If such a cannon is replaced with a 32-pound carronade (which weighs only 784 kg), then the weight of the salvo at close range will increase multiple times, in addition, due to the special design of the sliding carriage, the carronade could be serviced by only two people.

Thus, the British received an excellent close-combat weapon.

It must be said that the innovation did not pass by the French and Spaniards. So, in 1784, the Spaniards purchased from England two 96-pound carronades, two 68-pounders and two 42-pounders, as well as 50 cannonballs for each cannon. These carronades were supposed to be compared with 36-, 24- and 18-pounder guns. 30 shots were fired from each carronade; engineer Rovira was in charge of the tests.

Actually, this was the main problem, because Rovira was not a sailor. The engineer noted that long guns provide a much greater firing range than carronades, and also have a much smaller penetrating effect on the target body, which is especially noticeable at distances over 150 yards.

7
68 pound carronade on the forecastle of the battleship Victory.

Since the engineer was not a sailor, he did not know that in a naval battle the cannonball from the carronade formed a pile of wood chips directed into the ship, and it was this wood chips that mostly killed and maimed the crews.

Lieutenant General Langara, who favored the adoption of these new weapons, was surprised by their speed of loading and rate of fire. He estimated that the 96-pound carronade fired one shot in one minute 40 seconds, the 68-pounder fired in one minute 34 seconds, and the 42-pounder reloaded in just 45 seconds.

However, after the tests, the Spaniards... safely handed over the carronades to warehouses and forgot about them. We had to remember the carronades in 1805, at Trafalgar, when the British and their carronades, like machine guns, simply mowed down the crews of French and Spanish ships. Before the battle, Villeneuve and Gravina hoped for a scrap and the good old boarding due to the increased landing teams, but it was the carronades that drowned in blood all boarding attempts by the French and Spaniards.

References:
1. Chuck Meide “The Development and Design of Bronze Ordnance, Sixteenth through Nineteenth Centuries” – The College of William & Mary, 2002.
2. NAM Rodger “The Wooden World: An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy” – New-York-London, “WW Norton & Co”, reprint, 1996.
3. Spencer C. Tucker “Naval Warfire” – “Sutton Publishing”, Phoenix, 2000.
4. Enrique García-Torralba Pérez “La artillería española en el siglo XVIII” – Ministerio de Defensa, 2010.
5. Jean Boudriot, “L'artillerie de mer: marine française 1650–1850” – Paris, Ancre, coll. "Archéologie navale française", 1992.
6. NAM Rodger “Image and Reality in Eighteenth-Century Naval Tactics” – Mariner's Mirror 89, No. 3 (2003), pp. 281–96.
130 comments
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  1. +9
    2 November 2023 06: 39
    As for the Russian fleet specifically, the fleet achieved its loudest victories using non-rifled naval artillery for firing at the enemy and with the sailing fleet. As soon as the ships in the Russian Navy began to be propelled by machines instead of sails, and fire on the enemy began to be fired from rifled naval artillery , victories in naval battles somehow dried up... And you can’t say that naval gunners have become “stupid” than infantry artillerymen, who covered themselves with victories both in the times of smooth-bore and in the times of rifled field artillery. By the way, according to the VUS, I myself am the gunner of UPBU - Universal Deck-Tower Installations...
    1. 0
      2 November 2023 09: 13
      Maybe it's all about government policy?
      It just so happened that the times of the sailing fleet and smooth-bore guns coincided with the period of expansion of Russia, accordingly, an offensive strategy, and then switched to a defensive one, until our time.
    2. Alf
      +2
      2 November 2023 19: 44
      Quote: north 2
      As soon as ships in the Russian Navy began to be propelled by machines instead of sails, and fire on the enemy began to be fired from rifled naval artillery, victories in naval battles somehow dried up..

      Steam engines and rifled guns began to be introduced en masse on ships of the Russian fleet after the Crimean War. The question is, where did the Russian fleet fight after the KV?
      1. +4
        2 November 2023 20: 38
        Well, sort of, with the Japanese... Somewhere around 04-05
        1. Alf
          +3
          2 November 2023 20: 47
          Quote: novel xnumx
          Well, sort of, with the Japanese... Somewhere around 04-05

          Right. But a paradoxical situation arose there: they switched to new gun-ships, but they couldn’t change the commanders...
          1. +2
            3 November 2023 17: 31
            Quote: Alf
            But a paradoxical situation arose there: they switched to new gun-ships, but they couldn’t change the commanders...

            How to say... Vitgeft and Rozhdestvensky led their squadrons into battle against an enemy superior in strength. But Nakhimov or the Baltic admirals never decided request
            1. Alf
              +1
              3 November 2023 17: 43
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Vitgeft and Rozhdestvensky led their squadrons into battle against a superior enemy

              I didn't say they chickened out, it's just HOW they led them.
      2. +5
        2 November 2023 20: 45
        Quote: Alf
        The question is, where did the Russian fleet fight after the KV?

        On the Black Sea in the war of 1877-78.
        On boats with pole mines, British-built battleships, often with British commanders, were dispersed to their bases.
        There in the First World War.
        Whatever one may say, the Goeben was driven by old battleships.
        And in general, in WWII the fleet completed its tasks.
        1. Alf
          +2
          2 November 2023 20: 55
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Whatever one may say, the Goeben was driven by old battleships.

          Walking exclusively in threes...
          Goeben avoided clashes not because he was stronger or weaker, but because of the lack of a normal ship repair yard in Turkey. And the commander of Goeben understood perfectly well that he could hang cradles on our ships, but in return they would push him so hard that, taking into account the “amazing” Turkish repair capabilities, he would be docked until the end of the war.
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          in WWII, the fleet completed its tasks.

          I’m not very familiar with the naval part of WW1, but I remember that, with the exception of light forces, the entire Baltic Fleet did not stick its nose out because of minefields. How did Russian dreadnoughts distinguish themselves in the Baltic?
          1. +4
            2 November 2023 22: 57
            Quote: Alf
            How did Russian dreadnoughts distinguish themselves in the Baltic?

            Nothing. Baltic battleships never fired at the enemy during two world wars. Ships of this class simply did not have adequate tasks in the Baltic. But occasionally going out for exercises during WWII, everyone suffered more than one navigation accident. The Baltic is too small even for battleships (I remembered the death of Slava), and the battleships there felt like an elephant in a basin.
            1. Alf
              +5
              2 November 2023 23: 25
              Quote: Saxahorse
              The Baltic is too small even for battleships (I remembered the death of Slava)

              That’s right, the old battleships were puffing away, but the dreadnoughts from Kronstadt didn’t show their noses.
            2. 0
              5 November 2023 17: 30
              Quote: Saxahorse
              The Baltic is too small even for battleships (I remembered the death of Slava), and the battleships there felt like an elephant in a basin.

              Were small battleships needed?
              1. +3
                6 November 2023 15: 12
                Quote: Maxim G
                Were small battleships needed?

                Money to the wind.
                Quote: Maxim G
                the altika is too small even for battleships (I remembered the death of Slava), and the battleships there felt like an elephant in a basin.

                But the Germans didn’t know about it.
                1. 0
                  7 November 2023 17: 28
                  Let's wait for Saxahorse's response - your debates are always interesting to read. laughing
          2. +2
            2 November 2023 23: 11
            Quote: Alf
            Walking exclusively in threes...

            Does it change anything?
            Quote: Alf
            but in response they piss him off like that,

            Here is the answer to your question)))
            Quote: Alf
            The question is, where did the Russian fleet fight after the KV?

            ))))
            Quote: Alf
            I’m not very familiar with the naval part of WW1, but I remember that, with the exception of light forces, the entire Baltic Fleet did not stick its nose out because of minefields.

            Support of coastal flanks. Mine installations... yes, mostly with light forces, as indeed in all other theaters of the naval base in that war.
            Quote: Alf
            How did Russian dreadnoughts distinguish themselves in the Baltic?

            And the French?
            It's actually simple. If we had not had dreadnoughts, the Germans would have sooner or later made their way to Petrograd and its industrial region. Because twenty battleships against four is no chance. And this is about a third of our military industry and a certain loss in the war.
            But as soon as the Seva entered service, the Germans had to attract no less than eight of their dreadnoughts for this kind of operation. Despite the fact that any loss was critical for them.
            So they still played their role.
            1. Alf
              +1
              2 November 2023 23: 40
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Does it change anything?

              Much. For example, the fact that, head to head, Goeben had no equal opponent. Why did the Empresses sit out in the harbor?
              If I remember correctly, Eustathius was hit by 3 shells, 34 killed and 24 wounded. What if Eustathius and Goeben met one on one? Who would celebrate the victory?
              But Souchon remembered the repairs...
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              If we had not had dreadnoughts, the Germans would have sooner or later made their way to Petrograd and its industrial region

              Why did it happen ? Not a single Russian battleship showed its nose beyond the barrier lines, even when Slava almost sank to the bottom. What prevented Sevastopol from acting in the same way?
              I believe that the Germans realized that even with dreadnoughts, the command of the Russian fleet went into a deep defense, relying on obstacles and artillery positions, and that the command of the Russian fleet of the Kaiserlichmarine absolutely should not be afraid.
              1. +2
                3 November 2023 17: 20
                Quote: Alf
                Why did the Empresses sit out in the harbor?

                You are confusing something. They sat out so long that “Goeben” barely managed to escape.
                Quote: Alf
                What if Eustathius and Goeben met one on one?

                You see, Eberhard was not weak-minded...
                Quote: Alf
                But Souchon remembered the repairs...

                Souchon was leaving not only because of repairs, but also because of the banal lack of coal. But there was no coal, because the Russian fleet blocked Zonguldak.
                Quote: Alf
                I believe that the Germans realized that even with dreadnoughts, the command of the Russian fleet went into a deep defense, relying on obstacles and artillery positions, and that the command of the Russian fleet of the Kaiserlichmarine absolutely should not be afraid.

                You have some strange ideas. The Kaiserlichmarine, with more than twenty dreadnoughts of different types, should not have been afraid of the four Russian "Sevastopols" at all. And with such a balance of forces, no other intelligible strategy other than a blind defense was visible at all.
                The only question is the possible losses. If we have dreadnoughts, they are unacceptable to the Germans. If only four old armadillos, then...
                By the way, I am ready to agree that the Russian shipbuilding program was not the most optimal. But that's a completely different story.
                Let's get back to the topic. You asked:
                Quote: Alf
                The question is, where did the Russian fleet fight after the KV?

                I answered you.
                1. Alf
                  -2
                  3 November 2023 17: 46
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  They sat out for so long that “Goeben” barely managed to escape.

                  Did Goeben meet with the Empress? Where and when ?
                  1. 0
                    3 November 2023 20: 30
                    Quote: Alf
                    Did Goeben meet with the Empress? Where and when ?

                    Met on January 8, 1916, in the Zondulak area. I went out to chase Russian destroyers that periodically ran into longboats carrying coal. He escaped, albeit with difficulty.

                    The most interesting question in this story is which oak-headed representative of the fleet's general staff proposed reducing the speed of the Black Sea battleships. If he had been in the place of the Empress - Poltava, Goeben would hardly have been able to break away. Alas... It was the lack of coherent planning and management at the top of the Republic of Ingushetia that devalued all efforts to strengthen the fleet. They strengthened it, but no one could figure out why. Except for the participants in the cuts, of course.
                    1. Alf
                      0
                      3 November 2023 20: 47
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The most interesting question in this story is which oak-headed representative of the fleet's general staff proposed reducing the speed of the Black Sea battleships.

                      Counter question: why did they reduce the speed? I heard this version. No one under the Spitz considered the Turkish fleet an equal enemy, which, in general, is true. The task of our battleships was as simple as a moo - to facilitate landings to capture the straits; special speed is not required there. The displacement has been reduced, the design has been made cheaper, the medium caliber has been STRONGER, and the vertical guidance angle of the main battery has been increased.
                      1. 0
                        3 November 2023 22: 05
                        Quote: Alf
                        Counter question: why did they reduce the speed?

                        I know another version. After test firing at Chesma with embedded compartments and deckhouses from Sevastopol, it became clear that the protection of Russian dreadnoughts is simply rubbish. He doesn’t even keep his guns at the expected combat distance. Because some “smart guy” for the next, Black Sea series, suggested reducing the speed to slightly increase protection. This stupidity is rare... The increase in armor thickness obviously did not compensate for the penetration of new guns, but the battleships immediately lost their only tactical advantage in speed. The Sevastopol vehicles turned out to be successful and showed a noticeably higher speed than the design speed. The battleship Poltava showed an amazing 24.6 knots during trials, which is even better than the famous British Queen Elizabeth class with their 23.5-24 knots. Those. RI didn’t get full-fledged battleships, but they were successful in speed, they can compete with battlecruisers. But this idea was immediately killed from above.
                  2. +1
                    4 November 2023 19: 05
                    Quote: Alf
                    Did Goeben meet with the Empress? Where and when ?

                    You see, even Saxonhorse knows)))
                    And the speed was reduced to increase security.
                    The fact is that the opponents of the Empresses were supposed to be British-built Turkish battleships: Reshadiye, which eventually became Erin, and Sultan Osman, which became Egincourt. There should have been a third one, but the Turks did not pull it off. So, these battleships were supposed to develop (and did develop) a speed of 21 knots. Therefore, this speed was considered sufficient. But the 225mm GBP clearly did not dance against 13,5" guns. Therefore, the armor was brought up to a more or less sane 263mm.
                    Nobody could have predicted that one of the Moltke-class battlecruisers would end up on the Black Sea.
                    Something like that.
                    1. Alf
                      +1
                      4 November 2023 21: 39
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      You see, even Saxonhorse knows)))

                      So I immediately said that I’m not very good at maritime affairs.
        2. +5
          2 November 2023 22: 53
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          And in general, in WWII the fleet completed its tasks.

          More precisely, the RI fleet did not have any clear tasks at all in WWII. The Baltic Fleet sat in the ports, and the Black Sea Fleet, which had no enemy at all, did not understand what it was doing throughout the war. The dominance of the Republic of Ingushetia in the Black Sea did not have any influence on the course of hostilities.
          1. 0
            14 November 2023 15: 37
            Quote: Saxahorse
            The dominance of the Republic of Ingushetia in the Black Sea did not have any influence on the course of hostilities.

            This is the conclusion! This is what I understand! The landing in the Caucasus, the actual blocking of the Black Sea coast of Turkey and the impossibility of transporting reinforcements by sea... All this, with the light hand of the commentator and those who approve of him, is simply thrown into the trash heap “as unnecessary.”
            Indeed, they didn’t take Berlin, nor did Istanbul, which means they didn’t have any influence...
            Krasava bully
  2. +7
    2 November 2023 06: 42
    in Russia, an artillery pound is 0,4914 kg (established personally by Peter I in 1700), in the Netherlands - 0,4941 kg, etc.

    It seems that Peter I, having returned to Russia, forgot a little and rearranged the numbers. laughing
    1. +3
      2 November 2023 07: 01
      Peter could not know what the metric system and kg are
      1. +3
        2 November 2023 10: 42
        But Peter knew the Russian trade pound (409 grams) very well, and made the artillery pound much heavier. Therefore, for all the jokers, these data are given to distinguish the trade pound from the artillery pound.
    2. +2
      2 November 2023 15: 46
      Quote: AlexVas44
      in Russia, an artillery pound is 0,4914 kg (established personally by Peter I in 1700), in the Netherlands - 0,4941 kg, etc.

      It seems that Peter I, having returned to Russia, forgot a little and rearranged the numbers. laughing

      The weight of an artillery pound was taken to be the weight of a 2" cast iron core. But in the Netherlands everything was generally complicated; at that time there were three types of pound in circulation - 494,09g, 466g and 497.8g
  3. +1
    2 November 2023 07: 07

    Here is another swivel gun with breech loading with ready-made cartridges. Quite an ancient thing. A guy and a girl can control the wheel in 45 seconds
    1. +3
      2 November 2023 14: 04
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Here is another swivel gun with breech loading with ready-made cartridges.

      Most often, such tools were called culverins...
      1. 0
        3 November 2023 20: 40
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Most often, such tools were called culverins...

        By the way, all long-barreled guns, regardless of caliber, were usually called culverina. From a rifle to a 25-caliber battleship cannon. And small guns on a swivel,
        These are falconets.
    2. -1
      2 November 2023 15: 53
      The problem here is black powder. Carbon deposits quickly led to loading problems. And this good idea was abandoned.
      1. 0
        2 November 2023 23: 03
        Quote: mmaxx
        The problem here is black powder. Carbon deposits quickly led to loading problems. And this good idea was abandoned.

        Bad idea. The problem is not soot, it does not matter for breech-loading guns, the problem is the weight of the chamber. It allowed the use of only buckshot or small cannonballs. To increase power, you need a heavier and larger chamber, which is already difficult to charge and easy to carry.
        1. -1
          3 November 2023 16: 45
          Is unitary loading a bad idea? Oh well...
          1. -1
            3 November 2023 20: 33
            Quote: mmaxx
            Is unitary loading a bad idea? Oh well...

            Do you have problems understanding texts in Russian? It's a bad idea to use the chamber as a unitary cartridge. The reason was carefully explained to you above, re-read it.
            1. +1
              4 November 2023 15: 20
              You can compose whatever you want. And call your set bukoff text. And demand his understanding. And even chew it. I read it. And because I understood this set of letters, nothing has changed.
              The technical level did not allow making the chambers the same. And such guns INITIALLY were not considered large-caliber. Everyone had it like our arquebus or something like that. Anyone in those days understood the power of a gunpowder charge. And when the idea was abandoned, such guns finally became small-caliber until they disappeared altogether.
              But soot put an end to the whole idea. The gun simply stopped firing after a few shots due to the impossibility of installing this chamber. Nor did normal breech-loading guns come into use. With wedge gate. Quite technically competent designs.
              1. 0
                5 November 2023 13: 30
                Quote: mmaxx
                . And such guns INITIALLY were not considered large-caliber.

                Still how they were considered. For example, Turkish siege bombards with a replaceable chamber. However, they quickly realized that the weight of this chamber should be comparable to the weight of the entire gun, but the power was still less due to poor sealing.

                Guns with a wedge breech did not work then; without a shutter they lost too much power. The Krupp guns now have a Broadwell seal and the problem with the wedge breech has been solved.
  4. +5
    2 November 2023 07: 16
    In those days, serving with commandants certainly didn’t seem like honey.
    Quickly load, fire an aimed shot, return the cannon to its place after a rollback, and all while the ship is rocking on the wave and the enemy ships are returning fire. I remember F.F. Ushakov and his swing for training gunners.
    1. +1
      2 November 2023 08: 36
      It’s no more difficult than in other places. The cannon rolls on with tackles (hello, tug-of-war). It's more effective than pushing. And a ship sailing doesn’t rock much. More precisely, it hardly shakes.
      But loading a cannon is acrobatics. Discharge too. Especially the heaviest (and therefore longest) on the lower deck.
      What some people were unable to explain in the comments to the last article.
      1. +3
        2 November 2023 09: 02
        And a ship sailing doesn’t rock much. More precisely, it hardly shakes.

        It sways and sometimes very strongly. It all depends on the course relative to the wind and waves, as well as on the size of the waves. So that sometimes it is impossible to shoot.
        1. -1
          2 November 2023 09: 45
          No. What is written about this in the school physics textbook?
          Can download:
          - when there is no or little wind, but there is swell;
          - when the jibe or full backstay is closer to the jibe in a strong wind on a tail wave. She is, of course, always a companion here. I mean big.
          Occasionally, these courses were the most convenient for SOME ships in terms of speed. For the squadron - doubtful. Putting the front ships in a squadron under the wind of the end ones... I wouldn't call it a good idea.
          In this case, the cannons can only be fired at point blank range. The lower ports will have to be closed. It shakes very hard. This case may be more likely to be episodic in a duel battle between two ships. No one will put a squadron into battle so unprofitably. I don’t even know if there were battles in such conditions. Invincible armada? But this is the dawn of humanity. Not an example at all. In such cases, you can also grapple with a spar. Who needs this?
          1. +3
            2 November 2023 10: 20
            Can download:
            - when there is no or little wind, but there is swell;
            - when the jibe or full backstay is closer to the jibe in a strong wind on a tail wave. She is, of course, always a companion here. I mean big.

            It must be easy and pleasant to live when all the laws of the universe can be contained in two lines.
            In battle, ships maneuver - change tacks relative to the wind and waves - and can become a lag to the wave. Prove that no ship rocks when its side is along the waves. Prove that the ship does not rock when the size of the wave is comparable to the size of the ship - after all, there are different waves - both flat and steep.
            The sail, of course, helps stabilize the motion, as does the clinker hull, but this does not mean that motion does not occur on a sailboat.
            1. -4
              2 November 2023 10: 50
              What does the school physics textbook say about this? Do you want to argue for the sake of arguing? There is pitching. But on sailing ships pitching motion predominates, not roll motion. The keel has almost no effect on operations with guns. And at least get into sports. The squadron does not change any tacks in battle. This is a clock of time. This can only be done by two fighting ships. If you look at the statistics, I doubt that such battles happened during large waves => strong winds.
              1. +4
                2 November 2023 11: 16
                The squadron does not change any tacks in battle. This is a clock of time. This can only be done by two fighting ships.

                The battles then lasted for hours. Here is the first card that came across in the pictures
                1. -2
                  2 November 2023 15: 25
                  And how many salvos were there during this maneuver? It's just maneuvering. A squadron battle is a rapprochement and: either a battle on parallel courses from an advantageous position or a splitting of the line and finishing off in parts. And also point-blank. There were options in bays.
              2. +2
                2 November 2023 11: 21
                The keel has almost no effect on operations with guns. And at least get into sports.

                Only with those amidships. And at least argue.
                1. 0
                  2 November 2023 15: 26
                  Pitching has little effect on humans.
                2. 0
                  2 November 2023 15: 59
                  Since I know a little about pumping (I can’t stand it very well), it’s not that much. On the one hand, the length of those vessels was quite long, but, in general, small, and on the other hand, it fit well into the sea waves. Therefore, when it was blowing, it didn’t sway much.
                  But the side turns inside out. And it may be easier to be at the extremities. Simply more fun and definite. Than in the middle, where it might be quieter.
      2. +3
        2 November 2023 09: 56
        Quote: mmaxx
        But loading a cannon is acrobatics. Discharge too. Especially the heaviest (and therefore longest) on the lower deck.
        Hugo in "93" describes an episode with a broken caronade
        One of the caronades included in the battery - a twenty-four pound gun - broke from its chains.

        There can be no more terrible catastrophe at sea. And there can be no worse disaster for a warship going at full speed on the high seas.

        The cannon, freed from its shackles, instantly turns into a fairy-tale beast. A dead thing becomes a monster. This colossus glides on wheels, suddenly acquiring a resemblance to a billiard ball, rolls to the rhythm of the roll, dives to the rhythm of the pitch, rushes forward, rolls back, freezes in place and, as if thinking for a minute, starts moving again; like an arrow, it rushes from side to side of the ship, circles, creeps up, runs away again, rears up, sweeps away everything in its path, crushes, strikes, brings death and destruction. It is a battering ram that hits the wall at its own whim. Add to that - the battering ram is cast iron, and the wall is wooden....
        1. +1
          2 November 2023 10: 26
          Hugo was clearly on to something. Carronades did not have wheels. She couldn't roll around on the deck. And I didn’t hear, see or read that they were placed below deck.
          1. +9
            2 November 2023 10: 47
            It's just our translators having fun. The French then tried to create an analogue of carronades, howitzer guns (obusier). They were just on the usual ship carriages.
            1. -1
              2 November 2023 15: 28
              Since I don’t know French, it may well be. Although carronade is quite a sonorous name. And all scribblers love everything sonorous. He could have uttered a few words just for the sake of it. But without the original there is nothing to talk about.
  5. +6
    2 November 2023 09: 45
    That is why, around the 1560s, guns began to be cast as a single unit, and a special blank, a core, was inserted into the molten metal in the center, which formed the bore.

    It is impossible to insert a core into molten metal. The core (casting rod), which formed the bore, was inserted into the mold before the metal was poured.



    Making a model for casting a gun.
    1. +6
      2 November 2023 10: 49
      Thanks for the correction. Live and learn, as they say)
    2. +6
      2 November 2023 11: 10
      I'll add a little more. Once you delve deeper into the question, you will find a lot of interesting details.
      “Foundry workers began to use cast iron for cannons as a material that was more durable, technologically advanced, and most importantly, less scarce. But its use required a more advanced metallurgical base. Therefore, until the XNUMXth century, in some countries cannons were still cast from bronze, in others - from cast iron .
      The increasing need for guns comes into conflict with the process of their “slow molding”. Making a one-time, destroyable clay model for each casting was clearly irrational, especially after the standardization of the sizes of guns of the same caliber. The process of obtaining a puff mold from clay was also labor-intensive. Essentially, a revolution in this area was carried out by the famous French scientist, engineer and politician Gaspard Monge (1746-1818), the author of the method of so-called rapid casting of cannons.
      At the suggestion of G. Monge, the permanent model of the cannon is divided into parts, which are molded separately (similar to dividing a statue into parts). The hollow brass or cast iron model of a cannon consists of six separate parts, tightly fitted to one another: four ring models of the barrel, one ring - a profitable extension and one breech. The protrusions on the model at the joints reproduce the belts on the body of the gun. Each of the six parts of the model has hooks on the inside to facilitate assembly and disassembly. The upper part of the model forms the profit, which is then cut off from the body of the gun.
      The mold was made in a collapsible metal jacket, consisting of ring parts corresponding to the parts of the model and additionally divided along the axis of symmetry, i.e. 6 parts of the model accounted for 12 parts of the jacket. The individual parts of the jacket were fastened with pins and pins (wedges).
      This design of the jacket makes it easier to mold and, most importantly, remove the finished casting from the mold.
      The mold was made in a vertical position: first, the lower part of the model was molded at the bottom of the ring jacket. It was pre-lubricated with a release agent. Then the space between the wall of the model and the jacket was filled with a molding mixture consisting of greasy sand mixed with horse manure and compacted. After that, both the model and the casing were gradually increased. The contact surface of the individual parts of the mold was coated with a release agent. The molded parts were removed (the mold was disassembled), the models were removed from them, and the parts of the mold were dried separately from one another. After this, the inner surface of the mold parts was painted with molding ink and dried. The rod for decorating the inner surface of the gun was made in the same way as with the “slow molding” method.
      The mold was assembled, the rod was installed, and all parts of the jacket were fastened together. The mold was poured in a vertical position. Later, a modernized method of rapid cannon casting was used to produce cast iron water and sewer pipes (before the widespread use of centrifugal casting for these purposes).
      You should focus on the quality of the guns being cast. Long clay rods had poor gas permeability, so it was difficult to obtain castings without gas pockets on the inner surface of the tools. While the quality requirements were not very strict, minor defects were repaired. However, when a connection was established between the presence of gas pockets in the channel and the service life of the gun, the requirements for the cleanliness of the internal channel became more stringent. As a result, from 40 to 90% of cast iron cannons began to be rejected. Then the “Maritz method” became widespread, according to which the gun was cast in the form of a solid blank, and not with a finished channel. The channel was then drilled out, its inner surface was obtained without defects. However, guns with a drilled bore had a significantly shorter service life than defect-free guns with a cast bore, and they were more expensive to produce. In other words, the search for more advanced technological options for making cast iron cannons continued.
      One of the most successful should be considered the idea of ​​the American Rodman, who proposed using a metal water-cooled rod to design the internal channel of the gun. At the same time, during the process of solidification and cooling of the gun, the outer surface of the mold, made in metal jackets, was heated. In this case, the hardening of the gun barrel occurred sequentially from the inner layers to the outer ones, i.e. the principle of directional solidification was implemented. The gun barrel with a cast bore was dense and free of defects. Using partly this idea (without external heating), in 1869 the world's largest cast iron cannon with a caliber of 44,2 inches was cast at the Motovilikha plant in Perm. A mold with a height of 20 mm (Fig. 10665) was made using the “quick molding” method from a sand-clay mixture followed by drying. The mold consisted of five parts, molded in metal jackets (opkas)."
      1. -1
        2 November 2023 14: 48
        I'll add a little more.

        If you decide to take revenge from the Internet, then do it more carefully, otherwise Fig. 170 ended up behind the scenes, and the theme of Gaspard Monge in artillery is not fully disclosed.
        1. +3
          2 November 2023 16: 51
          Well, yes, an excerpt from the article. Actually, quotes are included. But it is appropriate and not uninteresting.
          I can also provide the Russian edition of Monge to those who wish. Do you think it is appropriate to discuss this here in an expanded scope?
          If you post a self-written text with additions in the evening, then no one will read it, it’s a waste of time, I don’t need it, I know the material myself, but now someone will be interested.
          1. +4
            2 November 2023 17: 15
            Now the time has come to add pictures and the missing number 170.
      2. -1
        2 November 2023 16: 01
        Informative. In general, looking at the Tsar Cannon and the Tsar Bell and all sorts of cannons in the Kremlin, you wonder how such technologies were made from clay and straw.
  6. +7
    2 November 2023 10: 16
    However, until the 1760s it was not possible to drill the trunk strictly horizontally.

    And around 1760, Jean Moritz II (Moritz's son) developed a machine in France that allows precise processing of the bore.



    In 1770, a similar machine was developed by Jan Verbruggen in England.

    1. +1
      2 November 2023 10: 30
      The design of the drill for deep drilling (for gun barrels) has not changed to this day. And that’s what they are sometimes called - cannon drills. The trick is that the drill is self-centering.
      1. +1
        2 November 2023 11: 03
        The design of the drill for deep drilling (for gun barrels) has not changed to this day. And that’s what they are sometimes called - cannon drills. The trick is that the drill is self-centering.

        There are drills for drilling, when a solid barrel is cast, and there are for drilling, when the initial hole is made in the casting, or, as now, by centrifugal casting or radial forging - and these drills are different. In addition, coolant is now being supplied.
        So the drills have changed a lot.
        1. -3
          2 November 2023 15: 32
          Don't fool yourself again. They talked about very specific gun drills. All sorts of methods and coolant supply are details
        2. -1
          2 November 2023 16: 07
          If you know, just write. Everyone will be interested. And not in such a way as to cling specifically to my words.
          About coolant supply. The pump needs high pressure. There it is necessary not only to lubricate, but also how much chips to remove. I don’t know when they thought of this, but some powerful pumps were needed. Hydraulics were already in use in the second half of the 19th century. Well, make the drill hollow. And provide for this in the machine. Not that era.
  7. +2
    2 November 2023 10: 50
    We had to remember the carronades in 1805, at Trafalgar, when the British and their carronades, like machine guns, simply mowed down the crews of French and Spanish ships. Before the battle, Villeneuve and Gravina hoped for a scrap and the good old boarding due to the increased landing teams, but it was the carronades that drowned in blood all boarding attempts by the French and Spaniards.

    There were never more than 10% of them on Victory.

    Despite the author’s enthusiasm for carronades, this is an absolutely “niche” weapon, very convenient only in some situations of naval combat.
    1. +9
      2 November 2023 11: 00
      The author is aware. But under Trafalgar, it was actually the carronades that decided the whole matter. In close combat, the Allies relied on boarding, but the British had carronades.
      At one time, I was perplexed - the French and Spaniards lost 3243 people killed and 2538 wounded at Trafalgar, while the British lost 458 people killed and 1028 wounded. Previously, I associated this with the high rate of fire of the British. Now I think that one factor has been completely ignored - the armament of English ships. It turned out that it was all about the English carronades. The fact is that the standard French 74-gunner had only four 36-pound carronades. The Spaniards had no carronades at all. Only the French 80-gunner (of which there were only 4 at Trafalgar, and only 3 took part in the battle) - eighteen 12-pounder and six 36-pounder carronades.
      In the English fleet, some of the ships were armed according to the old standard (without carronades), but some were simply studded with carronades. Judge for yourself - 74-gun "Belle Ile" - 14x32-pounder and 8x24-pounder carronades, "Mars" - 14x32-pounder carronades, "Tonnant" - 18x32-pounder, "Rivenge", "Leviathan", "Sweetshur", "Conqueror" ", - 12x32-lb. and 6x18-lb. , "Orion" - 6x32-pounders, 100-gun "Victory" - 2x68-pounders, "Britannia" - 12x32-pounders.
      As a result, it was these close-combat weapons that saved the British ships from capture, at least in the first phase of the battle. Carronades repaired with grapeshot simply devastated the decks of the French and Spaniards, especially since most of the crew gathered on the upper deck for boarding. Poor "Redoutable" (this is why the double salvoes of the carronades "Victory" and "Tonnant" went through four times), "Fouguet", "Entrepid" fully experienced the deadly salvoes of the carronades. Buckshot swept away French and Spanish crews from the decks like machine guns.
      So, in my opinion, Villeneuve’s mistake was precisely this - he did not take into account or did not know that the British had effective weapons against boarding parties.
      1. +5
        2 November 2023 11: 02
        So what is meant by French and Spanish carronades?
        The French began using obusier - short-barreled, thin-walled howitzers - in response to carronades in the 1780s. That is, it was an attempt to combine a mortar, a cannon and a carronade. The result was garbage, as is usually the case with hybrids - when used as a cannon that shoots bombs, the obusier was torn to hell. Due to their greater weight, they were either made in a smaller caliber than the British, or placed on the ship in pharmaceutical doses.
        For example, the French 110-gun Majestic in 1780 had only 4x36-pound obusiers, but in 1806 it was rearmed and already had 10x36-pound carronades.
        The Spaniards, in the likeness of the French, also developed the Obúses mortar-howitzer; it was even thinner-walled and had a too low initial charge speed.
        The 100-gun Obúses were best equipped.
        Santissima Trinidad - 16x24-lb., 4x4-lb.
        Principe de Asturias - 14x48-lb., 6x24-lb.
        Santa Anna - 10x48-lb., 2x32-lb.
        In principle - not a little. But the frequent explosions of these guns and low efficiency led to the fact that they were practically not used.
        1. +1
          2 November 2023 11: 09
          The author is aware.

          Very good additions that deserve a separate article.
        2. +6
          2 November 2023 13: 39
          The French began using carronades in the 1780s in response to howitzer - short-barreled and thin-walled howitzers

          The terminology should be clarified here. Gun designed in 1780 - howitzer de vaisseau - ship howitzer.



          The design is unsuccessful.

          1823 year. Canon howitzer - gun - Peksan howitzer.



          The sample is progressive in every way.
    2. -4
      2 November 2023 15: 35
      Two articles have already told you about this. Niche weapons with specific tactics of use. Precisely because long-barreled guns did not solve the problem.
  8. MSN
    0
    2 November 2023 11: 22
    Quote: mmaxx
    The squadron does not change any tacks in battle. This is a clock of time. This can only be done by two fighting ships.

    Of course he does.


    And these are just instructions, but life is even more fun. Remember Nelson.
    1. -2
      2 November 2023 15: 39
      Now let's get back to loading the guns and pitching. Is this what we're talking about? Where can there be such a shakedown that the gunners puked and lost their combat effectiveness? On a gybe turn? Or on one single tack? So, this is now a tack - this is rinsing the sails. And then walling. There was a minimum of striping. Holy shit, what harsh conditions. Even I wouldn't go overboard.
      That's the whole battle of changing tacks and pitching. Right here on the tack change. Especially through the jibe.... Yes, on a sailing SHIP, the change of tack through the jibe may not be noticed at all. Especially concerning the black column.
    2. 0
      2 November 2023 16: 22
      I understand that the top picture shows the recommended tactics for trimming the tail. The vanguard will go ahead. We'll have to catch up. On a tack, a sailboat with a straight rig loses speed, right down to the rear. We need to speed it up later. Go into the wind. It’s possible to lump a squadron together because of the speed difference. So all that remains is to finish off the cut-off rearguard. In general, with this direction of the wind, everything is quite impudent on the part of the whites. Apparently, the British were well aware of their seaworthiness.
  9. +3
    2 November 2023 11: 47
    Actually, this was the main problem, because Rovira was not a sailor. The engineer noted that long guns provide a much greater firing range than carronades, and also have a much smaller penetrating effect on the target body, which is especially noticeable at distances over 150 yards.

    I'll repeat it again. The penetrating effect of cannons with fast cannonballs is greater than with slow cannonballs of the same caliber. But the counter-barrier effect - "chip making" with the same thickness of the pierced/broken side - is less. But a fast core, having broken through a greater thickness of the side (or arriving from a greater distance) and leaving the same amount of energy as a slow one, will make the same amount of chips.
    Another thing is that the carronade, having the same weight as a cannon, usually has 2-3 times the caliber/weight of the core. This means that the cross-section of the core is larger and the core simply makes a larger breach, which produces many times more chips.
    1. -1
      2 November 2023 15: 49
      Something started to dawn on me. I would also like to realize the fundamentally higher rate of fire of short guns. And even on the upper deck. Yes, also a rotary machine. At least a little, but turning.
  10. +3
    2 November 2023 12: 35
    Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
    This means that the cross-section of the core is larger and the core simply makes a larger breach, which produces many times more chips.

    The greater the effect of buckshot.
  11. +1
    2 November 2023 12: 40
    Quote: Sergey Makhov
    But under Trafalgar, it was actually the carronades that decided the whole matter. In close combat, the Allies relied on boarding, but the British had carronades.

    The most logical explanation for the crushing British victory that I have ever seen.
    The French and Spaniards fought courageously and skillfully, but were defeated and nothing more than an advantage in firepower can explain such losses. Especially considering the fact that Nelson at the first stage went straight to the broadsides and a large number of French gunners.
  12. +4
    2 November 2023 14: 21
    Lieutenant General Langara, who favored the adoption of these new weapons, was surprised by their speed of loading and rate of fire. He estimated that the 96-pound carronade fired one shot in one minute 40 seconds, the 68-pounder fired in one minute 34 seconds, and the 42-pounder reloaded in just 45 seconds.

    However, after the tests, the Spaniards... safely handed over the carronades to warehouses and forgot about them. We had to remember the carronades in 1805, at Trafalgar, when the British and their carronades, like machine guns, simply mowed down the crews of French and Spanish ships.

    Author, if you have already started to rewrite Juan García, then rewrite it to the end. Otherwise you end up with some absurdities. The article says one thing, the comments say another, and the topic of the use of carronades by the Spaniards is not fully disclosed.
    1. +4
      2 November 2023 15: 26
      What can be noted is that the author already has active glores. Like any glories, they are not marked with any sane comments, but they minus all comments that do not contain piggy delight towards the author.
      1. +4
        2 November 2023 16: 34
        The point is that some comments are too harsh. The article is not very well balanced - the author switched from materiel to combat training with a visit to Trafalgar. Therefore, much remains in the gap. But I don’t think this is a reason to rub the author’s nose in the face. This is not Ryabov or Skomorokhov. A constructive comment is based on the formula - “this is not so” - “but like this” - “source”

        In general, almost from the first articles, many had some kind of rejection of the author. Moreover, it is largely irrational.
        1. +3
          2 November 2023 17: 55
          A constructive comment is based on the formula - “this is not so” - “but like this” - “source”

          For glors, the content of the comment does not matter at all.
          In general, almost from the first articles, many had some kind of rejection of the author. And largely irrational

          There is such a thing. The author, by the way, greatly contributed to this with his position, which he outlined in the comments to the first article. Like “I came down to you from the heights with revelations, and here is some kind of criticism.”
          1. +1
            2 November 2023 18: 21
            As far as I remember from another resource, the author has always been distinguished by sharp polemics.
          2. +4
            2 November 2023 19: 22
            The author, by the way, greatly contributed to this with his position, which he outlined in the comments to the first article. Like “I came down to you from the heights with revelations, and here is some kind of criticism.”

            Well, there's nothing surprising here. Our entire Grand Admiral crowd on topware behaves this way. But Makhov is still clearly larger in caliber.

            Purely my opinion - we need to slow down, first of all, in the comments. There we will get to truly interesting discussions.
            1. +2
              2 November 2023 19: 30
              But Makhov is still clearly larger in caliber.

              In this case, calibers are a relative value. Against the background of Ryabov, for example, the caliber will, of course, be the main one, and if against the background of Linnik, then it will be auxiliary.
              1. +3
                2 November 2023 19: 43
                It is all the more relative because it is subjective. And often also biased.
                The author writes review papers, so there will always be some incompleteness. But its specialization (sailing fleet) is unique not only for VO.
                The author has a background not only in the form of shit on the Internet, but also in the form of monographs. That is, he is already almost a unique figure here.
                It is obvious to me that the author is reproached for what in the case of other authors they turn a blind eye.
                1. +1
                  2 November 2023 19: 57
                  The author has a background not only in the form of shit on the Internet, but also in the form of monographs.

                  Monographs are, of course, good. But for an individual reading a specific article, if this very article is “not very good,” the thought that the author has monographs and is “almost unique” on the site is unlikely to console him.
                  Personally, I don’t blame the author for anything at all. I'm just commenting on the content of the articles. So far the expectations have not been met.
                  1. +1
                    2 November 2023 20: 03
                    The effect of inflated expectations is clear.
                    It's difficult for the author. He has covered “hot” topics for a long time. The articles now being published are quite niche. Smooth, but without fire. Although I really liked about the service life.
            2. +2
              2 November 2023 19: 53
              Everything is still quiet, family-like. I remember how they got whipped on Warhead!
              Hello Denis!
              1. +2
                2 November 2023 19: 58
                Good afternoon,
                There was and is enough shiza everywhere. On Warhead, the level was still higher. And there are more prohistorians. Much can be forgiven for the materials.
                1. 0
                  2 November 2023 20: 20
                  There are plenty of proficient historians here too. It’s just that at Warhead there was a slightly different manner of presenting materials and, accordingly, a different level of discussion.
                  1. +1
                    2 November 2023 20: 22
                    There are already two historians in the authors. Plus the undecided (or rather, finally decided that he is not a historian) Ryzhov. Look like that's it.
                    1. +1
                      2 November 2023 20: 42
                      How many latent ones? I mean those who received a history education, but carefully hide it? And in general, as practice shows, historical science is driven by completely non-core specialists.
                      1. +1
                        2 November 2023 21: 06
                        I mean those who received a history education, but carefully hide it?

                        I wonder why?
                      2. +2
                        2 November 2023 21: 38
                        Apparently because I have never worked in vocational training. A striking example is Sergei Mikhailov.
      2. +5
        2 November 2023 19: 13
        Quote from Frettaskyrandi
        What can be noted is that the author already has active glories.

        Dear colleague, I am interested solely for the purpose of improving my education...
        Who is this?
        belay
        1. +4
          2 November 2023 19: 24
          Who is this?

          glory hunter is a situational fan.
          1. +3
            2 November 2023 20: 41
            Quote from Frettaskyrandi
            Who is this?

            glory hunter is a situational fan.

            And thank you! hi
        2. +2
          2 November 2023 19: 36
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          ...active glores...

          Dear colleague, I am interested solely for the purpose of improving my education... Who else is this?

          I’ll add something I pulled from the internet:

          Quote: Dictionary for those who don’t understand anything about football
          Glor - A fan who started rooting for a team only after it achieved success. Often changes the team he supports after a series of defeats

          Your colleague really has a very broad outlook Yes
      3. +2
        2 November 2023 19: 23
        ... in which there is no piggy delight towards the author.

        Beautifully said Nikolaevich!!!
        A couple more works and I think you will agree with my old message that Shirokorad, as a popularizer of artillery and navy, is not the worst option!!! laughing
        To be honest, I propose to consider Mokhov’s phenomenon “new Harluzhnichesiv”; I think if the latter “eliminates” the spirit of “Zen”, “Tik-Tok” and “YouTube” you can get a good interlocutor. Example Eduard Vyashchenko.
        With sincere respect, to all regulars and the VO administration!
        1. +3
          2 November 2023 19: 37
          Shirokorad, as a popularizer of artillery and navy, is not the worst option!!!

          At the beginning of his career, Alexander Borisovich was really at a high level. But then the “light of a distant star” spoiled him greatly and he slipped into multi-tool compilers.
      4. 0
        3 November 2023 16: 19
        Let me classify myself, if not as a Glory, then as a fan. The topic is personally interesting to me. Moreover, I understand something about sails. There is very little information on the topic. Therefore, I think philosophically: “Let many flowers bloom...” And somehow I’ll figure out the conclusions myself. The sailing theme is interesting because there is no technicality there. It’s all about the eye, the concepts and the coherence of the crews. It is not for nothing that the British did not train officers anywhere, nevertheless, they had the most experienced and best of them.
        1. 0
          4 November 2023 16: 31
          The minus is not mine.
          Regarding the sources, the topic of naval artillery of the sailing fleet has not been disclosed, even at the level of children's literature. I’ll simply keep silent about books about ship modeling or maritime topics. To address the issue, you need to write not one, but a series of articles. And the Author took aim at the ancient fleet and even the rowing fleet. I am especially touched by Sergei’s attempts to argue with Nikolaevich, sometimes on obvious issues.
          In fact, popularizing the history of the sailing fleet is good, but in VO the option: “it will do as it is” unfortunately does not work.
          Either a quality article or a quality topic. In the first case, we discuss the work of the Dear Author, in the second, we supplement it, together with the Dear Author. But in the latter case, we must understand what Sergei wants. So far, apart from self-affirmations, nothing is visible.
  13. 0
    2 November 2023 16: 28
    Quote from Frettaskyrandi

    1823 Canon obusier - gun - Peksan howitzer.




    The sample is progressive in every way.

    This thing is not coastal, but definitely shipborne? What caliber is it?
    1. +1
      2 November 2023 22: 17
      The book claims that it is a ship's eighty-pounder.
      A treatise on naval gunnery by Sir Howard Douglas. I have the fifth edition, p.506.
  14. +2
    2 November 2023 17: 52
    Perhaps the first prototype of naval artillery was invented and implemented by Gaius Julius Caesar (here we rely on the “Comments on the Gali War”), who ordered the installation of catapults on ships. Before this, the favorite tactics of the fleet of Antiquity were ramming and boarding.

    Traditionally, naval historians date the use of throwing weapons in naval battles from 406 BC. Peloponnesian War. The organizational use of weapons as a systemic type, along with ramming and boarding, dates back to the era of Demetrius III. Although the first of the remote mechanisms in the arsenal of ancient ships - the dolphin (a load raised on an inclined mast that was dropped on the enemy) dates back to the Greco-Persian wars.
    Good evening everyone!
    1. +3
      2 November 2023 17: 58
      The next step was taken by the Byzantines, who invented Greek fire and flamethrowers. This was already quite a melee weapon that could be used against other ships.

      The next step was taken by a compatriot and even a relative of Julius Caesar - Agripa, who invented a throwing projectile “named after his beloved”
      1. Alf
        +7
        2 November 2023 19: 55
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        even a relative of Julius Caesar - Agripa, who invented a throwing projectile “named after his beloved”

        Antigripin? laughing
      2. +5
        2 November 2023 20: 18
        Agrippa invented not a projectile, but a device for pulling up an enemy ship and subsequent boarding.
        The device was called a harpax.



        It was an ordinary ballista, which was “loaded” not with a cannonball or a dart, but with a wooden pole “five cubits” long with a grapnel at the end. A rope of the appropriate length was tied to the second end. The ballista was used to throw the cat onto the enemy ship and winch it to its side.
  15. +4
    2 November 2023 18: 37
    The article is a bit chaotic, as if it consists of a combination of drafts of three articles.
    Cast iron cannons began to dominate the fleet because of their price - bronze ones were five times more expensive, try equipping the English fleet of 130 battleships with bronze guns, if the cost of weapons already accounted for 30-40% of the full price of the ship.
    Nevertheless, bronze cannons were placed on English ships, if they were in the arsenal or from trophies. Moreover, bronze cannons were more reliable than cast iron and more durable.
    I read from Trafalgar that the quality of the English casting of artillery barrels made it possible to load two cannonballs into long cannons, and when fighting at a “pistol” distance, this also gave a certain advantage over the Franco-Spaniards. And so the article is readable, otherwise there are very few of them on these topics in VO.
    Previously, articles on ship topics, for example by Andrey from Chelyabinsk, were interesting to read and the comments were no less interesting. And now, it is what it is.
    1. +2
      2 November 2023 23: 42
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      Moreover, bronze cannons were more reliable than cast iron and more durable.

      There was a figure that a bronze cannon could withstand about 800 shots, and a cast iron cannon could withstand about 2000 shots. But there is a nuance! wink The cast iron cannon was then torn apart like a grenade, into many fragments with all the consequences for the calculation, but the bronze one was usually blown up, i.e. a fistula appeared around the crack and there were almost no fragments. That's why gunners loved bronze cannons more. laughing

      But again, bronze is more expensive than cast iron, not even 5 but 10-15 times. But a bronze cannon is usually lighter than a cast iron one; a smaller margin of safety was built into it. Well, the famous firing with two cannonballs is the naval show-off of the British captains of that time. The guns were tested with a double charge upon acceptance, so it was believed that it should withstand two cannonballs. In theory. In practice, as firing progressed, the strength decreased and it regularly broke as a result. Sometimes with extremely sad consequences for the ship, including fire and explosion of the cellars in the end. But without showing off! drinks
      1. +2
        3 November 2023 11: 04
        2000 rounds is for the Mayevsky system cannon. Not even a distant predecessor - the 60 pound Baumgart is no more than 600. And this is the end of the era of cast iron barrels. And the cost of bronze cannons relative to cast iron, depending on the country - in Spain the difference is less, in England it is more.
        Well, regarding firing two cannonballs, well, victory is needed here and now, and in a battle that determines the fate of your country, the resource of the barrels is the tenth thing. The main thing is victory. The British took a risk and won. If the Franco-Spaniards and Napoleon had won, it might have ended with England.
        There is a lot of material on Tsushima to read on these topics.
        1. +1
          3 November 2023 21: 00
          Quote: Khibiny Plastun
          2000 rounds is for the Mayevsky system cannon. Not even a distant predecessor - Baumgart's 60 pounds is no more than 600.

          I came across this in descriptions of the times before Trafalgar, the resource depends on the built-in safety margin, which again directly depends on the ratio of the weight of the cannon to the weight of the cannonball. The minimum known ratio was 80:1 for Prussian bronze field guns. Normal is about 150:1, for cast iron the ratio is higher. And for ship guns, both bronze and cast iron, it’s a huge 200-300:1. Look at the caliber and weight of the gun in the article above. Such guns also have a longer service life, but bronze ones were usually made with a smaller margin of safety; they are more stable in production than cast iron ones, which is why they required less margin.

          Quote: Khibiny Plastun
          Well, regarding firing two cannonballs, well, victory is needed here and now

          Let me disagree. The explosion of one or two guns always meant, at a minimum, the failure of the battery for a decent time, and, at maximum, the risk of the death of the ship. Moreover, the only advantage is a slight improvement in the penetration ability of two cores in tandem. Even the author’s favorite number of chips did not increase. laughing
      2. +1
        3 November 2023 20: 21
        fistula

        The explanation for the situation could have been different. After all, it’s not difficult to come up with an anti-fragmentation cover or shield for the guns of a sailing fleet. Moreover, if cast iron ones cost an order of magnitude less, then you can have them in abundance and simply prevent a critical level of wear.
        1. 0
          5 November 2023 13: 50
          Quote: ycuce234-san
          then you can have them in abundance and simply prevent a critical level of wear.

          Certainly! That's what they did. Then they came up with the idea of ​​tracking the number of shots per barrel and regular inspections of the barrel inside with a mirror. The appearance of cracks inside the trunk clearly suggested that soon these cracks would spread deep enough and everyone would be “bo-bo.” wink
  16. +4
    2 November 2023 18: 49
    Guns whose recoil is greater than the width of the ship are funny, and making them from strips forged on a wooden core is a gem laughing
    1. +4
      2 November 2023 19: 12
      Quote: Bone1
      Guns with recoil greater than the width of the ship are funny...laughing

      Good evening, The author mainly works with English-language sources, and representatives of Foggy Albion are far from being experts in the fields of the rowing fleet. If we look at a galley of the 15th-16th centuries from a bird's eye view, we will see only the forecastle and stern, connected by a Curonian, free of rowers' benches. The density of the layout was such that even for the galley and detachable yawl it was necessary to remove one bank (bench) of rowers.
      So the choice of artillery placement was obvious. However, the recoil of the guns was not small. The main gun's course during rollback could reach the mast.
      1. 0
        5 November 2023 13: 53
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        The main gun's course during rollback could reach the mast.

        Of course not. No one in their right mind would slow down the rollback against the mast. There, a lot of things could fly in from above, if anything... The main caliber was rolled away with handles and tied to the mast in the stowed position.
    2. +1
      3 November 2023 13: 43
      Yes, I don't mind laughing. The rollback of the Curonian cannon on a galley is up to 20 meters. The recoil of the 60-pound cannon of the Maiev model of 1855 is as much as 2.1 meters. And this is already the 19th century.
      Actually, on the Scottish Great Michael, large cannons were installed exclusively in the bow or stern, because their recoil was 15 meters, and the width of the ship was 11 meters.
      1. +1
        3 November 2023 16: 02
        The side guns were tied with trousers to the frames. They were tied up with layers of sheathing and all sorts of ties. Opposite the lower deck are velvets. The spatula is filled with bars. All this kept the impact. And the gun was heavy. And on the galley, apparently, these, like, bits, or whatever they were called, were broken out. Posts that were attached to almost nothing. We decided that they would roll anyway. The guns are light. The sit is here.
      2. +1
        3 November 2023 21: 13
        Quote: Sergey Makhov
        Yes, I don't mind laughing. The rollback of the Curonian cannon on a galley is up to 20 meters.

        Are you seriously? 20 meters? I support your call, I can’t laugh! lol
        Look in the videos at the rollback of an ordinary 12-pound cannon on the ground on huge wheels. It's about a meter there. For 20 meters, you need to put rails on the galley and lubricate them well. wassat
  17. +1
    3 November 2023 00: 32
    Sergei Makhov is very good at describing historical facts and the economic side of the war during the time of sail. But for some reason Sergei floats steadily in the guns. I will note a number of points with which it is difficult to agree.

    The first prototype of naval artillery was invented and introduced by Gaius Julius Caesar (here we rely on the “Comments on the Gali War”), who ordered the installation of catapults on ships.

    Judging by the descriptions of that time, they probably installed ballistas and not catapults. Such a ballista has already been shown above in the comments. And unlike catapults, ballistas are quite capable of shooting flatly.

    Initially, guns were produced in the following way: several strips of iron were cast, which were connected to each other by forging around a wooden core and reinforced with connecting rings.

    They learned to cast iron only in the middle of the 19th century. And Krupp showed the first such gun at the first world exhibition in Paris. The first iron bombards were not cast, but forged from strips of the then raw iron, and with a hand hammer. Those. and the quality is disgusting and it was welded poorly and it’s so difficult to mold a big gun, you just can’t forge it with your hands. Therefore, they were cast from very expensive bronze, and then they learned to cast from cast iron. By the way, it was the British who were the first to learn.

    Carronade.. This is a large caliber cannon, but short and thin-walled. Such guns could fire not far away, but with large-caliber cannonballs. Moreover, at close range, these cannonballs did not pierce, but broke through the side of the enemy ship, forming a pile of wood chips.

    It is not clear why the author always contrasts “pierced” with “broken through”; the comments correctly indicated that the number of chips is proportional to the caliber and the carronade did not have any special damaging factor. By the way, the British passion for carronades sometimes backfired on them. For example, in the battles on the Great Lakes, the Americans, who preferred long guns, severely battered the British fleet. They simply shot from a long distance, not allowing them to approach with a confident volley of carronades.

    Well, the most interesting thing that can be remembered about the cannons of the times of sail is that there were almost no sailing battleships sunk by cannons in history. And other large ships too. I can remember only one case described by Mahan and that’s it. Until the appearance of the Peksan and Sinop guns, there was only boarding. drinks
    1. 0
      3 November 2023 05: 58
      By the way, the British passion for carronades sometimes backfired on them. For example, in the battles on the Great Lakes, the Americans, who preferred long guns, severely battered the British fleet. They simply shot from a long distance, not allowing them to approach with a confident volley of carronades.
      There seems to be one point at play here. In the wars with European fleets, the British were confident (reasonably) in the better training of their sailors. They performed all maneuvers faster than their opponents. That’s why their tactics allow them to quickly get closer to the enemy. You can develop many preparations for their cunning in dividing the line and the inability to allow the British at close range. But neither the French nor the Spaniards simply had time to do anything about it. And they were defeated purely psychologically. This trick did not work with the Americans. There were many of our own sailors there. There were no European templates in shipbuilding. American sailing ships have always been distinguished by good speed.
      There was even one nuance. I don't remember where I read it. The Americans used blocks with large pulleys in their gear. To make it easier to control the sails. And the English bosses saw such blocks as ugly(!). So it turned out that the Americans deprived the British of their main advantage - the opportunity to conduct a decisive battle.
      It must be said that the desire for rapprochement among the British prevails in almost all battles at sea. Nelson's Testaments, what can I say.
      1. 0
        3 November 2023 21: 27
        Quote: mmaxx
        This trick did not work with the Americans. There were many of our own sailors there. There were no European templates in shipbuilding. American sailing ships have always been distinguished by good speed.

        I agree with you here. The Americans, at that time, took the best from the British and French schools; they had not yet developed the conservative bureaucratic structure of the old empires of Europe. Because yes, there are fewer resources behind you, but there is much more energy and intelligence. That's why we won.
        1. 0
          5 November 2023 17: 34
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The Americans, at that time, took the best from the British and French schools; they had not yet developed the conservative bureaucratic structure of the old empires of Europe.

          What did the Americans build so well out of sailing ships?
  18. +1
    3 November 2023 07: 53
    Quote from Frettaskyrandi
    ship's, eighty-pound.

    Just a king cannon, I have never heard of such a caliber on sailing ships. The age of bombing guns was short-lived. Thanks for the interesting information, we'll dig into it.
    Live forever, learn forever, you will still die a fool...
  19. 0
    3 November 2023 08: 09
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Judging by the descriptions of that time, they probably installed ballistas and not catapults. Such a ballista has already been shown above in the comments. And unlike catapults, ballistas are quite capable of shooting flatly.


    As far as I remember, the concepts of “ballista” and “catapult” changed, and in ancient times they were not different at all. As far as I remember, catapult means "against shields."

    Here, for example, is how a catapult is described in the glossary for the 1993 edition of Titus Livy.
    CATAPULT - military arrow-throwing machine. The catapult's arrows reached 135 centimeters in length. The most powerful catapults hit at a distance of up to 400 meters. The servants at the catapults ranged from two to six people.

    You can find a large number of other definitions.
    In my opinion, there is no precise, generally accepted definition of these ancient tools, so in this case, IMHO, the author cannot be accused of making a mistake.
    1. +1
      3 November 2023 21: 39
      Quote: S.Z.
      As far as I remember, the concepts of “ballista” and “catapult” changed

      I agree that they have changed. However, recently, a “catapult” is still commonly understood as a weapon that fires along a mortar trajectory, and a “ballista” that fires along a flat trajectory. Although even in the picture given in the commentary it is clear that the ballistas were able to launch their projectiles quite steeply upward.

      The author's mistake is in being too categorical. It is well known about many battles using throwing machines. I think the famous movie Cleopatra has seen a lot. Of course, Ptolemy did not build his pentera with towers to put useless catapults inside.
  20. -1
    3 November 2023 21: 51
    For me, since childhood, the word “carronade” has been firmly associated with the beginning of V. Hugo’s novel “The Ninety-Third Year” (we weren’t the only ones who experienced the dashing nineties).
    When on a merchant(!) ship carrying counterfeit French money and one of the leaders of the monarchical opposition, the Marquis of Lantenac, from England to the Vendée (that’s right, what else can be transported from England?) a carronade broke out in a storm (on a merchant ship!). And she began to roll from side to side, destroying the ship.
    And so the sailor from the gun crew did not lose his head, threw a bag of counterfeit money under the wheels of the carronade, and quickly tied the gun to the standard mount.
    Everyone was saved, and the Marquis of Lantenac removed the order from his chest and awarded the sailor for this feat. And then he immediately ordered him to be shot because he had poorly executed the carronade before the storm.
    This Lantenac is an extraordinary person, talented and powerful, but from the entire novel the phrase about him is forever etched in my memory: “You cannot become a hero by fighting against the Fatherland!”
    And it’s bad that Krasnov and Vlasov were not guided by this, and even more so Galkin and Urgant do not understand this.
  21. 0
    7 November 2023 08: 02
    Quote: Saxahorse
    I agree that they have changed. However, recently, a “catapult” is still commonly understood as a weapon that fires along a mortar trajectory, and a “ballista” that fires along a flat trajectory. Although even in the picture given in the commentary it is clear that the ballistas were able to launch their projectiles quite steeply upward.

    The author's mistake is in being too categorical. It is well known about many battles using throwing machines. I think the famous movie Cleopatra has seen a lot. Of course, Ptolemy did not build his pentera with towers to put useless catapults inside.


    Recently, under the influence of computer games - yes, the ballista is something like a “big bow” (although in fact it worked with torsion, not tension), and the catapult is “a thing with a spoon” (although in fact it is a spoon there wasn’t, but there was something like a sling on a machine).

    As for the trajectory, this is rather a modern interpretation, they didn’t shoot from closed positions back then, during sieges they tried to break walls, during defense - to smash throwing machines and other siege structures (Josephus Flavius ​​has an interesting description of such a struggle, for example, they specially painted stones so that there would be no visible in flight).

    At sea, back in the Punic Wars, throwing machines were used, as far as I remember Titus Livy. Again, if memory serves, he called each car without the concept of class, that is, for example, “scorpion” is not at all “small catapult”. However, the translators could still try harder here.

    I agree about being too categorical, antiquity is shrouded in fog, some theories are just theories, not facts, but there is a desire to pass them off as facts.