Finale of ultra-long-range artillery

148
Finale of ultra-long-range artillery

On March 23, 1918, the pavements of Paris shook under the feet of Parisians from a strong explosion. Habitually turning their eyes to the sky, to their surprise, the Parisians did not find any explosions of anti-aircraft shells or slowly floating German Zeppelins there. Airplanes of that time could not carry bombs of a decent weight. The front line was almost 90 kilometers from Paris, that is, the artillery shelling was out of the realm of fantasy. From Jules Verne and Pascal Grousset's (André Laurie) science fiction novel The 500 Million Begums, to be precise.

There, in the novel, the German Doctor Schulze built a huge cannon with a range of 40 km in the bowels of his city of Stalstadt. This cannon's shells, equipped with secondary launchers, could bombard any city with hundreds of incendiary shells. In general, to all the inventions of mankind predicted by Jules Verne, we also add cluster munitions with incendiary submunitions.



But in Paris in 1918 it was no laughing matter. Intelligence very quickly figured out that the Germans (specifically the Krupp concern) were able to produce an ultra-long-range 210-mm cannon and began shelling Paris with it.


The Krupp gun had a barrel length of 130 calibers, that is, almost 30 meters, and fired projectiles weighing 118 kg at a distance of up to 130 km.


The weight of the powder propellant charge is 200-250 kg, the mass of the explosive in the projectile is 7 kg. The mass of the installation was 256 tons, of which the barrel accounted for about 128 tons.


The gun fired from a special concrete platform with a ring rail for horizontal aiming. The weight of the gun, including its concrete base, was close to 750 tons.

In general, it’s a terrifying thing, like basically everything that Krupp’s military factories produced.

However, it turned out that everything was not as scary as it seemed at first. Until August 7, 1918, the Germans fired 367 shells, of which two-thirds hit the city center and a third scattered throughout the suburbs of Paris. Almost four hundred huge shells killed 256 Parisians and injured more than 600 people.

And most importantly, not a single military target was hit.

For five months, the “Kaiser Wilhelm Trumpet,” as this gun was nicknamed, was a weapon of terror against the civilian population of Paris. The results of the application were more than scanty, so it is not surprising that in August the Germans dismantled the cannon, took it to Germany and melted it down.

Naturally, following the Germans, the French, British, Italians and Americans began to respond to the creation of ultra-long-range artillery. But these works are generally worthy of a separate article, because there the imagination went wild quite well.

What is in Russia? They didn’t build such monsters in Russia, but they wanted to in Soviet Russia. There was something flawed in trying to “catch up and overtake” when there was nothing to catch up with, and even more so to overtake. But there was a desire.

Soviet Russia had a lieutenant general of the Russian Imperial Army, Vasily Trofimov. A simple general, but with a very bright head. Winner of the Small and Large Mikhailov Prizes.

The Mikhailovsky Prize was awarded in 1845-1916 for the best works or inventions in the field of artillery. Large – 1500 rubles, Small – 500 rubles. The money came from a fund created by graduates of the Mikhailovsky Artillery School.

General Trofimov in 1918 proposed the establishment of a Commission for Special Artillery Experiments (KOsArtOp) under the People's Commissariat for Military Affairs of the RSFSR. The commission would be engaged in artillery development, including research into the possibilities of creating ultra-long-range guns. And such a commission was created. Trofimov’s authority attracted such prominent artillery specialists as N.F. Drozdov, I.P. Grave, G.A. Zabudsky, F.F. Lander, V.I. Rdultovsky.

That is, there were heads in Russia. There was also a theoretical basis, the same Trofimov wrote many works on the theory of artillery, including the following:
“On the calculation of ultra-long-range shooting trajectories” (1919)
"The Ballistic Side of Firing at High-Flying Targets" (1919)
“Our ballistic solution to the problem of a long-range gun” (1921)

The problem lay elsewhere. The creation of ultra-long-range guns required technologies and means that at that time Soviet Russia not only did not have, but did not foresee. And the Kosartop professionals solved the problem this way: we will make them with what we have, since the Motherland needs such guns.

And they did. The basis was taken from the 356-mm guns of the Obukhov plant for the Izmail-class battlecruisers, which the state could not complete for many reasons.


For these guns, new beltless sub-caliber 356/203-mm projectiles were designed, which were ordered to be produced by the Perm plant. The order was placed in 1920, and in June 1921 the customer received the first 15 shells out of 70 ordered.

The first shootings took place in June 1924. 203-mm shells weighing 110 kg flew out of the barrel at a speed of 1 m/s and flew over a distance of 250 km. The distance is not Kruppian, but nevertheless, the result was quite good. The downside was the large dispersion, which did not allow us to talk about proper accuracy.

It turned out that the cannons created by Kosartop could fire exclusively at areas. There was no talk of accurate shooting.

For two years, Kosartop specialists tried to do something to increase shooting accuracy and reduce the dispersion of shells, but alas, work on ultra-long-range artillery for the Soviet army was stopped in 1926, when the head of the commission, General Trofimov, committed suicide.

Ten years later they returned to the topic. The country became more and more powerful, the army grew in size, and the appearance in its ranks of the first marshal, Comrade Tukhachevsky, finally curtailed the development of the army along the path of gigantomania. Tens of thousands tanks, thousands of aircraft, huge guns and everything else, preferably unparalleled in the world.

So the Bolshevik plant in Leningrad began producing new shells for testing. We can say that this was the era of test firing. We tested polygonal projectiles, sub-caliber ones with belt and star-shaped pallets. It should be noted that it was not without success.

They fired from the same Izmail guns, bored to 368 mm.


220/368 mm sub-caliber shells weighing 142 kg flew at distances from 87 to 97 km. The lateral deviation was 100-150 m, which was quite decent for such distances. In 1937, a 220-mm projectile weighing 140 kg (the pallet weighed another 112 kg) with a full charge of 223 kg of gunpowder showed an initial speed of 1390 m/s and a flight range of 120 km. That is, Soviet weapons engineers practically repeated the achievement of their German colleagues, but with a heavier projectile.

But the main advantage was that the barrel was not specially made (a 30-meter barrel was beyond the capabilities of the USSR industry at that time), but a regular naval gun barrel. With significantly greater survivability and mobility. Preference in the design of miracle shells was given to the “star-shaped” pallet. Guns with star trays had a small number of riflings (usually 3–4) of great depth. The cross-sections of the shell trays repeated the cross-section of the channel. In general, the result was rifled guns with rifled projectiles.


There were no more honest Trifonovs in the leadership of the Artillery Directorate, and work went on and appetites grew. The projects involved converting a 368 mm gun into a 305/180 mm gun, then into a 380/250 mm gun, followed by installation on the TM-1-14 railway platform.

Everything stopped in 1938, when the Art Directorate of the Red Army and (an unexpected move) the NKVD received a report compiled by a group of engineers entitled “Results of tests of rifled and polygonal projectiles in 1932–1938,” where these caring comrades very quickly substantiated the fact that all these tests are nothing more than puffing up one’s cheeks and spending money. And the results are no different from the results obtained at the Volkovskoe Field training ground back in 1856-1870. That is, all this time the artillery engineers were simply fooling everyone, engaging in fraud.

Indeed, the results of tests of polygonal guns in 1928–1938 coincided one to one with the results obtained at Volkovo Pole. The same picture was with rifled shells.

The Art Directorate turned a blind eye to these dances, but the NKVD “closed its shop.” Dozens of developers of the “miracle”weapons"were arrested and imprisoned, and work on super-projectiles stopped.

In general, the very idea of ​​​​creating and using “super-weapons” was ineffective. Loading a gun with a rifled projectile in the field was just a quest for engineers; we’re not talking about calculations from ordinary people at all.

In addition, it was not worth talking about the accuracy of these projectiles: the probable circular deviation was many tens of meters, which could not be compensated by the power of the charge. The amount of explosive in a 140-kg 220-mm sub-caliber projectile was 7 kg. That is, the same amount as a high-explosive projectile for a 152-mm D-1 howitzer weighing 40 kg contained.

In general, the shooting accuracy of ultra-long-range guns was completely useless; they were only suitable for shooting at targets such as the city. The destructive effect of shells with a caliber of over 200 mm was somewhere in the middle between 76 and 122 mm shells of conventional guns.

The Germans, who started it all, took a slightly different path


By 1940, they had practically restored the “Kaiser Wilhelm Trumpet”, or as it was also called, the “Paris Gun” in the form of a 210-mm K12(E) railway installation, which began throwing high-explosive shells weighing 107,5 kg over a distance of 120 km.


It is very logical that, having captured France, the Germans could not resist the temptation to start shelling Britain. Dover was in the crosshairs.

Especially for London, the Germans developed, manufactured and even managed to test an ultra-long-range finned high-explosive projectile. Weighing 140 kg, it flew out of the barrel at a speed of 1 m/s and could fly up to 850 km. Accuracy... however, we have already had a lot of “sad things to say”, let’s end the episode positively: the Germans did not have time to use a feathered projectile. They have more important tasks.

There was another “miracle weapon”, also a cannon on a railway platform, K5(E) with a caliber of 278 mm.


Here it was firing products (not quite shells) with a 280-mm caliber with rifling. The gun barrel and shells each had 12 rifling 6,75 mm deep. The ammunition was active-reactive Raketen-Granate 4341. These products weighed 245 kg and contained 17 kg of explosive. The initial speed of the ammunition was 1120 m/s and it could fly up to 87 km.

After the projectile left the barrel, the jet engine was turned on and ran for 2 seconds. The fuel used was 19,5 kg of diglycol gunpowder, which gave a very decent thrust of 2100 kgf.

The firing range made it possible from the territory of France (the coast from Calais to Boulogne) to reach coastal cities from Margate to Hastings and inland to Ashford.

The downside of the Raketen-Granate 4341 was that at its firing range the projectile fit into an ellipse of 2 x 1,5 km. That is, there was again no accuracy and we were talking exclusively about terrorist attacks on cities.

And there was also a design bureau in the glorious town of Peenemünde... In general, many things were created there aimed at the mass destruction of representatives of humanity. Including a 310-mm smoothbore gun with extra-long (more than 2 meters in length) finned shells weighing 136 kg. Such a projectile contained 25 kg of explosives, flew out of the barrel at a speed of 1 m/s and flew at a distance of up to 420 km.

The production of seven such guns began, but only two took part in the fighting. Both guns fired at the advancing Allies in the battles near Bonn.


But the range of 87 km was not the limit. A new barrel and an extra-long sub-caliber projectile for it were designed at the rocket and artillery design bureau at the Peenemünde training ground. The barrel had a smooth bore of 31 cm caliber. The length of the 31-cm Spreng-Granate 4861 high-explosive fragmentation sub-caliber projectile was 2012 mm, weight 136 kg. The projectile contained 25 kg of explosive. The diameter of the active projectile is 120 mm.

The projectile was equipped with a pallet with centering belts. After the projectile left the channel, the pan was separated. In flight, the projectile was stabilized by four tail stabilizers. With a charge of 248 kg, the initial speed was 1420 m/s, and the maximum range was 160 km.

The production of seven smooth-bore 31-cm guns began, of which two were completed: one by Krupp, the other by Hanomag. Both guns fired at the British and Americans in the battles of Bonn.

During live firing in July 1944, the guns showed an initial speed of 1 m/s and a range of 130 km. At this range, the dispersion was 50 m along the range, and 900 m laterally. That is, again the accuracy made it possible to shoot either at large targets such as cities, or simply at areas where manpower and equipment were concentrated.

If we look up all the statistics of German artillery fire in Great Britain for the years 1940–1944, then the Germans fired 2226 shells into the Dover area. Losses of the British army and population - about 200 military personnel and civilians, plus minor damage to infrastructure.

Well, then you remember, the era of the forerunners of cruise and ballistic missiles, the V-1 and V-2, began, which turned out to be much more effective weapons than the super-projectiles of super-guns.



What does the new century have in store for us?


For some reason, the 21st century was no exception to the rule, and work on superprojectiles continued. But already in a new form, because scientific and technological progress occurred, which put satellite constellations into orbit, giving a new direction to development. And projectiles appeared, corrected by GPS signals. Experimental work has shown that the CEP of projectiles, which are adjusted based on satellite signals, does not exceed 10 meters. The artillerymen of the last century could only dream of such an indicator.

And there was another return of superguns.


Probably the most successful projectile is the product of OTO Melara (part of Leonardo) in collaboration with Diehl Defense. The companies are well-known and highly respected, what can I say. They know how.

Their creation Leonardo “Vulcano” (or OTO “Vulcano”) is a whole family of high-precision sub-caliber finned high-explosive fragmentation artillery shells. But the American M982 Excalibur from Raytheon Missile Systems and BAE Systems Bofors is also quite good.

“Vulcan” exists in three calibers: 76 mm and 127 mm – unitary for naval guns, and 155 mm – with a modular charge for land artillery. Moreover, for howitzers with different barrel lengths, the Vulcan has a different number of modules. The declared range of the projectile is from 50 to 70 km.


"Vulcan" is very similar in appearance to a conventional anti-tank sub-caliber projectile. When fired, the sabot and shell are discarded, revealing the tail stabilizer and wing. True, some real experts have doubts about the declared amount of explosives in the projectile. And it says as much as 5 kg. Such an artillery specialist as Alexander Shirokorad openly in his articles questions the presence of so many explosives, because there is simply no room in a 127-mm sub-caliber projectile! It is also crammed with various electronics, without which a guided projectile is not a projectile at all.

A standard 122-mm howitzer caliber projectile has up to 4 kg of explosive inside, but here there are five... Very strange. But, of course, shells of this class, equipped with semi-active seekers, are very accurate. The CEP is no more than 3-4 meters, and when the target is illuminated with a laser, it can even hit targets in motion. The same is true for Excalibur.

But these shells have both pros and cons.

On the plus side, it is worth noting that the projectile is much more difficult to detect and track than the same missile. Yes, there are counter-battery radars, but they are not a panacea, and are currently a very easy target for aircraft with anti-radar missiles.

But in our age, the guided projectile has a very tough rival - the kamikaze drone. The same "Shahed-136" that "Geran-2" carries the same 5 kg of explosives. Yes, it flies slower than a projectile, but it is even more difficult to detect it even with the KBS radar. What to say about FPVdrones. But the price of the drone is much less than that of the same Vulcan or Excalibur, the cost of which ranges from 100 to 300 thousand dollars, depending on the modification. Naturally, this cannot be compared with tens of thousands of dollars for a kamikaze drone, I emphasize, with the same explosive charge as the super-precise Vulcan. "Excalibur" carries 22 kg of explosives inside, so it is not entirely correct to compare it.

In addition, unlike conventional projectiles, high-precision and super-long-range projectiles are susceptible to damage from electronic warfare. GPS is a very useful tool, but satellite signals can be jammed, and then such projectiles will be of little use.

The question of what is more effective, 1 Vulcan-type projectile, 10 Shahed-136-type drones or 100 conventional caliber projectiles is still looking for an answer on the territory of Ukraine, where all types of these ammunition are involved in the SVO.


But ultra-long-range projectiles on the ground have another serious competitor - MLRS, capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 120 km, and with the help of adjustments based on satellite signals, up to 200 km.

And at sea things are no better for super-shells


American destroyers, including the Zamvolts, have 155-mm AGS (Advanced Gun System) artillery mounts. Modern firing systems, 127 mm caliber, 62 caliber barrel length, water-cooled barrel, with all kinds of guidance systems.

For these installations they developed a simply gorgeous LRLAP projectile.


The projectile is active-reactive, already 2,24 meters long. LRLAP weight 104 kg, explosive weight 11 kg, rocket motor fuel weight 11,7 kg, retractable wings and stabilizers. The firing range of this projectile is 154 km; naturally, there is GPS correction. CEP 20-30 meters. Simply an excellent performance at this distance. But the installation can also fire conventional 155 mm shells. But at 40 km.


During testing in July 2013, 4 shots were fired in field conditions and from a ground machine. All 4 projectiles confidently captured the satellite signal, corrected the trajectory and successfully hit the target at a distance of 83 km.

What is the problem? In price! One shot of the Zamvolta cannon costs 2 (TWO) million dollars! For comparison, a Tomahawk Block IV missile with a high-explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 340 kg flies to a distance of 1 km for half that amount. That is, for a million dollars.

Yes, a cruise missile is easier to track and destroy by air defense means than such a projectile. But the effect of use in case of a hit will be greater; after all, 11 kg versus 340 somehow does not look confident.

This is probably why the admirals fleet The United States ordered a total of 100 LRLAP shells for six Zamvolt guns and continued to study the possibility of firing conventional 127 mm shells.

What can be said as a result?


105 years ago, on the battlefields of the First World War, it was experimentally discovered that cannons could fire over vast distances, 100 km or more. Many countries tried to increase the experience gained during the First World War in order to provide their artillery with an advantage.


They invented several dozen artillery systems and hundreds of super-shells. But not a single project produced any decent results. The result could be considered a “gun + projectile” system, which would be effective in combination with the characteristics “range + accuracy + cost”.

Ultra-long-range guns turned out to be completely ineffective in terms of accuracy and cost. And the appearance of cruise missiles and kamikaze drones generally negated all the achievements of long-range artillery.

The projectile has one quality left that drones do not have - it flies more stealthily and quickly than drones, cruise and tactical missiles. It is much more difficult to intercept and destroy. But in other respects, the projectile, alas, loses to cheaper competitors.

Speaking about guns whose firing range exceeds 100 km, we must admit that today these systems have practically lost out to drones and missiles. And there is no point in continuing work on creating artillery systems that fire at a distance of more than 100 km.

However, the results of the work of Russian gunsmiths showed the pointlessness of ultra-long-range artillery systems back at the end of the 19th century. And in the 20th century, Soviet gunsmiths only confirmed these works with their experiments. The 21st century has shown the complete advantage of missiles and drones when working against targets at long distances, but from time to time information appears in the press about the modernization of old Soviet artillery systems such as the same “Hyacinth”. The matter is meaningless and merciless, not worth the effort.
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  1. +14
    29 October 2023 04: 15
    Artillery - God of War period Yes
    1. +2
      29 October 2023 09: 26
      Specially powerful guns were used during the assault on Berlin.
      On their hulls were royal eagles.
      Those guns were produced to participate in the 1st World War.
      There was a series of documentaries on this topic on TV "Zvezda".
      1. +13
        29 October 2023 13: 14
        Quote: Mister X
        Specially powerful guns were used during the assault on Berlin.
        On their hulls were royal eagles.
        Those guns were produced to participate in the 1st World War.
        There was a series of documentaries on this topic on TV "Zvezda".


        B-4 howitzers have been produced since 1931, Br-5 - since 1939. What kind of “eagles” are we talking about?
        What else were the “eagles” on? They didn’t say? Katyushas are there, ML-20, A-19...
        They've been showing "documentary" nonsense for about 15 years now, you're messing up your head - so at least don't broadcast it to the masses.
        1. +2
          29 October 2023 13: 31
          Quote: RoadRunner
          B-4 howitzers have been produced since 1931, Br-5 - since 1939.

          And I'm not talking about them.
          I don’t remember the model, they took part in the 1st World War.
          1. +16
            29 October 2023 17: 41
            305 mm howitzer mod. 1915 distinguished themselves during the capture of Koenigsberg. The barrels of the TM-3-12 railway guns, as well as the 30th battery in Sevastopol, were also pre-revolutionary. So the eagles were on the breech soldier
        2. +6
          29 October 2023 13: 32
          Quote: RoadRunner
          nonsense, you're polluting your head - so at least don't broadcast it to the masses

          Let's be mutually polite.
          Or howitzers were not produced before the revolution?
        3. +14
          29 October 2023 13: 52
          Quote: RoadRunner
          What else were the “eagles” on? They didn’t say?

          On 305-mm howitzers mod. 1915
          Not only Zvezda, but also Alexander Shirokorad writes about them.

          The apotheosis of the use of high-power and special-power artillery by the Red Army was
          assault on the cities of Breslau, Poznan, Königsberg and Berlin.

          Look for the work of Alexey Isaev
          HIGH AND SPECIAL POWER ARTILLERY OF THE RED ARMY
          IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR 1941–1945



        4. +2
          30 October 2023 13: 16
          Quote: RoadRunner
          B-4 howitzers have been produced since 1931, Br-5 - since 1939. What kind of “eagles” are we talking about?

          OM and BM artillery inherited some of the artillery systems from the Empire: 203-mm Vickers howitzers, 280-mm Schneider mortars and 305-mm howitzers mod. 1915
      2. +6
        29 October 2023 20: 07
        “Special power” guns are about the destructive power of the charge, and not about the range! And the article describes “ultra-long-range” guns. In the Northern Military District zone now, cast iron martyrs would also be quite suitable, a projectile weighing 200+ kg (like the FAB 250) and a solid cast iron design of several tens of tons, no FPV drones can break lol good
        1. +3
          30 October 2023 14: 11
          There are such mortars. These are 240 mm Tulip mortars. Any more is hardly advisable; mobility will be greatly reduced.
    2. +1
      29 October 2023 11: 00
      For today, yes. Not for tomorrow.
      A similar comparison can be made between tanks and UAVs. And small UAVs have many times more advantages in all respects.
    3. 0
      30 October 2023 09: 16
      Quote: Alien From
      Artillery - God of War and point

      Yes Yes...
      Well, then you remember, the era of the forerunners of cruise and ballistic missiles, the V-1 and V-2, began, which turned out to be much more effective weapons than the super-projectiles of super-guns.
      The author successfully forgot about the German project of the FAU-3 multi-chamber supergun and the attempt at its reincarnation in the 80s of the 20th century in Iraq

    4. -2
      30 October 2023 18: 22
      The gods sometimes give birth to ugly monsters like the Minotaur. So all these monstrous guns are the same ugly monsters, absolutely useless for war. As is Fau, by the way. Capable only of terrorizing the civilian population of large cities.
      1. 0
        31 October 2023 15: 31
        Is the citizen a pacifist or a demagogue?..
  2. +35
    29 October 2023 04: 21
    Somehow our people on the front line do not feel the advantages of missiles and drones in counter-battery warfare. Everyone is complaining about our lag in this component.
    Small ones are selling in great demand. There are clearly not enough of them.
    1. -1
      29 October 2023 05: 17
      So if a couple of dozen lancets a day arrive to the entire front, and then the operator, instead of looking for a howitzer in the distant enemy rear, tries to burn a long-abandoned leopard a couple of kilometers from our positions, then of course there will be problems with counter-battery combat.
      1. +22
        29 October 2023 05: 54
        Not every Lancet can fly far beyond the line. Moreover, it also requires a scout and a signal repeater. Or maybe not alone. Those Lancets that knock out AFVs at close range are designed for this.
        In addition, knocking out enemy artillery with Lancets usually occurs after the gun has fired and is trying to hide. This is not exactly counter-battery warfare. The task of the fight is to suppress and destroy enemy artillery right while it is firing when it is trying, for example, to stop our advance. And this requires range, accuracy and speed of response. The lancet is not suitable.
        1. +23
          29 October 2023 06: 22
          Quote: malyvalv
          The task of the fight is to suppress and destroy enemy artillery right while it is firing, when it is trying, for example, to stop our advance. And this requires range, accuracy and speed of response. The lancet is not suitable.

          In order to effectively crush enemy artillery, it is necessary to be able to conduct continuous artillery reconnaissance along the entire front, to a depth of at least 35-40 km. There should be a lot of such reconnaissance means, they should work one by one, constantly changing positions. This is exactly how more than a hundred US ratillery reconnaissance radars work in the combat formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine - they are installed on Humvees and constantly move along the front line, turning on according to schedule. We do not yet have either quantitative parity in such radars, nor quality in terms of range and maneuverability. But there is a new counter-battery station “Penicillin” - passive, and therefore more secretive in its work and less susceptible to suppression. But there are still few of them.
          I would like the appearance of guided/adjustable projectiles for Malok. With their range and power, it would make an excellent instrument.
          So the future belongs to Penicillin and Coalition-SV. All that remains is to wait in the troops in commercial quantities.
          1. +5
            29 October 2023 08: 25
            I strongly doubt that Penicillin can give target coordinates comparable in accuracy compared to radar. Only the lowest sound waves, whose length is tens of meters, will travel to a distance of 30-40 km. Accordingly, the accuracy. Ideally. Infrared radiation is generally just to show direction. Without a radar it is more likely to scare the enemy. Well, also give the coordinates to the Lancet or a reconnaissance drone if it happens to be nearby. There can be great benefits here.
            1. +4
              29 October 2023 22: 30
              Quote: malyvalv
              I strongly doubt that Penicillin can give target coordinates comparable in accuracy compared to radar.

              This is not instead of radar, it is together. But in the absence of a stamp, we write on... wrapping paper. The undoubted advantage of "Penicillin" is the secrecy of observation. And regarding artillery reconnaissance radars... in February 2015, as a result of the successful Debaltsevo operation, two such US-made radars were captured. One was even unfolded... was not unpacked. And they passed it on as and to whom it was supposed to. In so much time, it would be possible to reverse engineer not only to repeat, but to slap analogues in exhaustive quantities... And for the shortage, we have old, still according to the Soviet technical specifications, “Zoos”... And the enemy has one and a half hundred counter-battery warfare radars on jeeps. Without the massive use (and before that, their appearance in the troops) of mobile counter-battery warfare radars in our battle formations, the enemy will have an advantage. Moreover, this advantage will manifest itself especially expressively in defense. I think that all this will soon be in the troops. Similar radars are installed on the Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled guns. It is necessary for them to appear on a relatively light automobile chassis.

              Quote: malyvalv
              also give the coordinates to the Lancet or a reconnaissance drone if it happens to be nearby. There can be great benefits here.

              This is exactly what seems to be happening in recent months/year. In the absence of high-quality artillery reconnaissance and long-range precision artillery, this is the most rational solution to the issue.
          2. -4
            29 October 2023 15: 31
            Regarding accuracy
            Install a locator on the self-propelled gun.
            Which online tracks the projectile along almost its entire trajectory and calculates the coordinates of the impact point. The next one is sent to the target, taking into account the amendment. This system is completely autonomous - no satellite navigation required.
            As for the range.
            The army received the latest direction-finding meteorological complex “Ulybka-M”, which allows measuring atmospheric parameters at altitudes of up to 40 kilometers. The data obtained can be used, among other things, to adjust long-range artillery fire.
            It is no secret that some artillery systems use shells that, when fired at maximum range, rise to the height indicated above. That is, their flight path lies in the upper layers of the stratosphere, where the air is very rarefied and its resistance is minimal. which allows you to increase the firing range.
            So Roman is cheap, reliable and quite accurate. It’s too early to write off long-range artillery.
            1. -1
              29 October 2023 19: 28
              Quote: knn54
              Regarding accuracy
              Install a locator on the self-propelled gun.
              Which online tracks the projectile along almost its entire trajectory and calculates the coordinates of the impact point. The next one is sent to the target, taking into account the amendment. This system is completely autonomous - no satellite navigation required.
              As for the range.
              The army received the latest direction-finding meteorological complex “Ulybka-M”, which allows measuring atmospheric parameters at altitudes of up to 40 kilometers. The data obtained can be used, among other things, to adjust long-range artillery fire.
              It is no secret that some artillery systems use shells that, when fired at maximum range, rise to the height indicated above. That is, their flight path lies in the upper layers of the stratosphere, where the air is very rarefied and its resistance is minimal. which allows you to increase the firing range.
              So Roman is cheap, reliable and quite accurate. It’s too early to write off long-range artillery.

              Just a moment feel
              The planet rotates... almost half a kilometer in a second. For blanks lasting tens of kilometers (and tens of seconds) this is a death sentence.
              1. +1
                29 October 2023 19: 39
                Quote: Andrey Dibrov
                Just a moment
                The planet rotates... almost half a kilometer in a second. For blanks lasting tens of kilometers (and tens of seconds) this is a death sentence.

                Yes... We need to make allowances for the rotation of the planet... And in general, since it is round, the projectile will fly into space.
                1. -1
                  31 October 2023 14: 06
                  Even for a sniper, a couple of seconds is a pain in the ass
            2. +4
              29 October 2023 22: 35
              Quote: knn54
              Install a locator on the self-propelled gun.
              Which online tracks the projectile along almost its entire trajectory and calculates the coordinates of the impact point.

              The Coalition-SV already has such radars.
              All that remains is to wait for the same radars on a separate light chassis (Tiger class) to work with the rest of the artillery.
        2. 0
          29 October 2023 14: 07
          Quote: malyvalv
          The task of the fight is to suppress and destroy enemy artillery right while it is firing, when it is trying, for example, to stop our advance. And this requires range, accuracy and speed of response. The lancet is not suitable.

          What then is suitable for these purposes?
        3. +3
          29 October 2023 14: 09
          Yes, any lancet can knock out artillery; knocking out a self-propelled gun is easier than a T-64. The enemy has a lot of 122 mm artillery, a lot of Soviet howitzers of not the greatest range, which are not too far from the LBS. If we have problems with radars and don’t have enough lancets, then it’s worth riveting simpler reconnaissance drones and using them to look for enemy artillery. Most of the losses are from artillery, which means this is the highest priority target. An already discovered howitzer will not be able to leave or hide from the lancet. If it is fought out within the framework of a non-counter-battery fight, then this is a problem for linguists, not the military.
      2. +1
        30 October 2023 13: 20
        Quote from alexoff
        and then the operator, instead of looking for a howitzer in the distant enemy rear, tries to burn a long-abandoned leopard a couple of kilometers from our positions, then of course there will be problems with counter-battery combat.

        The Lancet operator does not have to search for the target himself. Its task is to go to the required area, find (by coordinates, by landmarks, by video image) and hit a target that has already been detected by a reconnaissance UAV.
        1. 0
          1 November 2023 19: 13
          Ok, the operator of the reconnaissance room should not speak - I see a shot down leopard, send the lancet before they take it away! He must tell the gunners where this stationary target is and continue to look for the self-propelled gun.
    2. 0
      29 October 2023 08: 43
      Quote: malyvalv
      Somehow our people on the front line do not feel the advantages of missiles and drones in counter-battery warfare. Everyone is complaining about our lag in this component.
      Small ones are selling in great demand. There are clearly not enough of them.

      How many Malok did it take to snap up? And in general, under the conditions of using the D-1, Malka seems like something alien.
  3. +5
    29 October 2023 04: 23

    However, the results of the work of Russian gunsmiths showed the pointlessness of ultra-long-range artillery systems back at the end of the 19th century. And in the 20th century, Soviet gunsmiths only confirmed these works with their experiments. The 21st century has shown the complete advantage of missiles and drones when working against targets at long distances, but from time to time information appears in the press about the modernization of old Soviet artillery systems such as the same “Hyacinth”. The matter is meaningless and merciless, not worth the effort.
    Is it so “meaningless”? and in conditions of EMP use, these drones and “smart” missiles will be worthless. That’s when simple art systems will come to the fore.
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 13: 00
      In the end, everything is decided by money (prices) and the capabilities of artillery and ammunition production technology. Let’s assume that it is cheaper and safer for destruction: to fire 30 unguided OFZs or a couple of guided ones of the Krasnopol type at a target at a distance of 50 km.
      1. +3
        29 October 2023 17: 49
        And what will you use for illumination at 30 km? No, they don't shoot like that.
      2. +1
        30 October 2023 15: 26
        The ammunition can be cluster ammunition, there can be several of them, it can also be adjustable ammunition for MLRS. In rockets, the overloads are lower and it’s easier to fit electronics.
        The enemy uses cluster munitions. In addition, it uses air detonation with proximity fuses.
    2. 0
      30 October 2023 20: 45
      and in conditions of EMP use, these drones and “smart” missiles will be worthless

      Well, here we go again, 25. How much is possible? Again, permanent EMP for several hours from a nuclear explosion in the upper layers of the atmosphere, which will burn out absolutely all the electronics, despite the double shielding of this electronics and simply the laws of physics (or are they canceled during combat operations and the sine of the angle reaches 40?) of propagation spherical wave front.
      To understand: now they are fighting drones by jamming control signals from the operator and satellite navigation signals, but no one is burning the electronic filling of even Dishman drones with Ali.

      That’s when simple art systems will come to the fore

      A simple oak art system is of little use if it does not have a connection with reconnaissance and fire spotters. Do we have many artillerymen who understand signal lights? After all, according to you, there will be no electronics for radio communication.
      1. +1
        31 October 2023 15: 50
        Citizen EMP, this is not only, and not so much the effect of nuclear weapons, the generation of EMP waves exists even in a caliber of 30mm + and more, they are no more expensive than classic high-explosive fragmentation, but also, accordingly, the radius of effective EMP is from 10 meters...
        1. 0
          7 November 2023 02: 07
          Citizen EMP, this is not only, and not so much the effect of nuclear weapons, the generation of EMP waves exists even in 30mm caliber
          It is with great interest that citizens get acquainted with examples of such weapons, especially 30mm ones, as well as officially confirmed examples of their use in the Northern Military District zone.

          but also, accordingly, the radius of effective EMR is from 10 meters...
          In general, up to 10 meters, because according to the laws of the Universe, in the observed space-time continuum, and not in someone’s individual head, the energy of an electromagnetic pulse in the case of a spherical wave front tends to decrease inversely to the square of the distance from the source of radiation. In other words, at a distance of 10 m the EMR energy will decrease by about 100 (one hundred) times, at a distance of 15 m by about 200 (two hundred) times. And this is in open areas. A reinforced concrete box can greatly spoil this picture.
  4. +15
    29 October 2023 04: 30
    By the title of the article, I unmistakably identified the author. laughing
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 12: 25
      Quote: Maxim G
      By the title of the article, I unmistakably identified the author.

      What amazing insight...
      Skepticism - a philosophical position based on doubt about the existence of any reliable criterion of truth.

      It is absolutely true that the author questions this “jingoism” in the existence of an economy with an annual growth of 1% and a certain resting on the laurels of people who have not distinguished themselves in the public service with special achievements and successes...
      I hope that he will be the first to tell about the decline of the rule of the “troikas”, who seized power under special conditions.
  5. +8
    29 October 2023 04: 36
    I agree with the author’s general conclusions, but disagree with the last statement about the effortless modernization of existing weapons.
    This work just makes sense, because these weapons already exist, are in commercial quantities, and something similar, like the same “Coalition,” is not expected in the foreseeable future. Modernization, in any case, will cost less than the production of new systems, and improving accuracy and range will be worth these costs, since our main guns are inferior in firing range to Western models (OFS - 30 km, AR OFS - 41 km Hyacinth, against, for example, the German Pzh2000 with ranges of up to 36 and up to 67 km, respectively, as well as up to 48 km when firing "Excalibur" with a CEP of 1 m)
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 08: 59
      Well, somehow! How so!?
      From time to time, information appears in the press about the modernization of old Soviet artillery systems such as the same “Hyacinth”
      To spoil an excellent article (and while reading, “outstanding” and “excellent” were spinning in my head) by using the wrong name of a flower from a Soviet herbarium, you know, you have to try!!!... It should be “Peony” and “Malka! I I would also add "Malva". The 203 caliber was probably relevant until the beginning of the 21st century, let the experts correct it in time. By definition of caliber, there cannot be much such artillery on the battlefield due to competition with MLRS, OTRK, UAVs and more numerous modern artoy 152-155 mm.
      1. +1
        29 October 2023 13: 13
        The problem with 203 mm guns is that their barrel life is low - less than 1000 rounds.
        1. -2
          29 October 2023 14: 36
          Quote: Alexey Lantukh
          The problem with 203 mm guns is that their barrel life is low - less than 1000 rounds.

          Do you think the 152mm Hyacinth has a much longer barrel life?
          1. +1
            29 October 2023 18: 38
            Of course more. In addition, if you do not shoot at full charge, the service life of the barrel increases.
    2. +4
      29 October 2023 13: 11
      The possibilities for modernizing old artillery systems are almost exhausted. German Pz2000, this is a different generation. "Kaolitsiya" has nothing in common with the old guns, except for the caliber. Classic artillery has long reached its limits; accuracy can only be improved using third-party systems.
      1. -3
        29 October 2023 15: 15
        Quote: Jager
        . "Caolition"

        oh God... the parish church behind you?
    3. +1
      29 October 2023 17: 51
      And how many Hyacinths and how many Pzh2000s does the Ukrainian Armed Forces have? Yes, exactly at the Armed Forces of Ukraine laughing
  6. +10
    29 October 2023 05: 13
    But if you take an ancient cannon with a caliber of 350 mm or so, then from it you could shoot something like the BetAB-500, which is accustomed to such severe overloads, add a Glonass correction system, which won’t take up much space, and off you go! Deploy a gun somewhere near Ilovaisk, place a couple of shells and/or a couple of tori nearby, deploy a GPS jammer around it, stretch a panel with painted bushes over this entire structure so that it is not visible from a satellite, and in a week or two from all these fortifications Only craters will remain in Avdiivka.
    Here, of course, one can argue that there is a 9M530 somewhere, for which a correction system can certainly be made? Yes, and you can probably attach UMPC to BetAB. Of course you can, but you have to look at the price tag, which no one will show us, and the price tag of military products in general is strongly tied to the series; if a normal quantity is produced, the price tag may decrease significantly. But we haven’t made large guns for about 80 years, if only we had some battleship at hand, like the Americans, we could get a little perverted, but we are not Americans. Therefore, it is better to make larger missiles, and it is also advisable to update the old P-15 and other anti-ship missiles with a navigation module and launch them where necessary.
    1. +1
      29 October 2023 15: 29
      Quote from alexoff
      But if you take an ancient cannon with a caliber of 350 mm or so, then from it you could shoot something like the BetAB-500, which is accustomed to such severe overloads, add a Glonass correction system, which won’t take up much space, and off you go! Deploy a gun somewhere near Ilovaisk
      To fire such a weapon, you need to build an underground fortress, see coastal batteries of Sevastopol. Or to fence monstrosity on the rails like Dora, who shot very occasionally and anywhere. In the USSR they tried to make a self-propelled gun of a similar caliber for firing atomic shells, but it turned out frankly pathetic.
      1. +1
        29 October 2023 17: 55
        Both Peony and even Hyacinth shoot very well with atomic shells. God forbid that you have to.
      2. 0
        29 October 2023 22: 41
        Tell me, is it possible in 2023 to attach a correction unit to a projectile weighing half a ton so that it doesn’t fly anywhere? Or is it impossible to do this without a 5 nm process technology?
        Quote: bk0010
        To fire such a weapon, you need to build an underground fortress, see coastal batteries of Sevastopol.

        What do you mean, the aforementioned 305 mm howitzers were probably also carried into ready-made fortifications?
        1. 0
          30 October 2023 22: 00
          Quote from alexoff
          What do you mean, the aforementioned 305 mm howitzers were probably also carried into ready-made fortifications?
          Of course, only these were guns, not howitzers. In those days, they tried to make coastal defense guns protected; this was not the time of the Crimean War.
          1. 0
            31 October 2023 00: 51
            But I suggested shooting with howitzers; in the days of Belaz they can be very mobile
            1. 0
              31 October 2023 20: 36
              Quote from alexoff
              But I suggested shooting with howitzers; in the days of Belaz they can be very mobile
              No, for the Americans, a 280-mm howitzer for firing nuclear shells required 12 hours for the engineering equipment of the position. And the 280mm is much, much smaller than the 350mm. So even if you manage to get it somewhere very quickly (in parts, of course, otherwise there will be no quick, quick), you still won’t be able to start shooting quickly. To understand the scale of the problems, take an interest in the weight of the main caliber turrets of 15" battleships. Yes, there were 2 barrels, not 1, and about a third of the mass was spent on armor, but still, even 500 tons for ground vehicles is a lot even without taking into account the fact that that these 500 tons should periodically eject a projectile weighing a ton at a speed of 2-3 times the speed of sound.
              1. 0
                1 November 2023 19: 15
                For some reason, a 280 mm tulip shoots without all this. There was both the Oka and the Condenser, it was not easy with them, but the same Oka did not fire the next day after delivery
                1. 0
                  1 November 2023 20: 05
                  Quote from alexoff
                  For some reason, a 280 mm tulip shoots without all this.
                  Tulip (240 mm) - mortar, the ranges are not the same. Such goodies (305-mm Czech mortars) were quite mobile even in the First World War.
                  Quote from alexoff
                  There was Oka and Condenser, it wasn’t easy with them
                  Were they included in the real troops? They took it a couple of times in the parade to the fear of their enemies. Where do the standards come from?
    2. 0
      29 October 2023 16: 35
      Please tell me why they don’t do this, it’s a pretty good suggestion!
    3. 0
      29 October 2023 18: 36
      During the war with the Germans, large-caliber ship guns were installed on railway platforms or special transporters, which obviously had limited maneuverability.
      1. 0
        29 October 2023 22: 45
        Yes, I know. There was no MZKT then; now, if such a gun were in stock, there would be somewhere to put it with greater maneuverability.
        1. 0
          30 October 2023 13: 37
          Quote from alexoff
          There was no MZKT then; now, if such a gun were in stock, there would be somewhere to put it with greater maneuverability.

          Ahhh... Here we go again. ©
          There were already themes of self-propelled guns OM and BM on a tracked chassis, which gave out “Kondensator” and “Oka”.
          Remember the test results of the first one?
          Breaking off the gearbox mounts;
          The combat vehicle rolls back several meters;
          Equipment destruction;
          Damage to sloths during firing of simulated nuclear weapons.

          At the same time, there was no talk of any prohibitive range or power: the “Condenser” was armed with a 30" cannon shortened to 16 calibers with a projectile that was half as light (compared to the naval version) and fired only at 26 km.

          And for a full-fledged, powerful long-range weapon, only a special railway transporter is suitable - like this one:

          Because when firing an 1100-kg projectile at long ranges (with high explosive forces), the recoil will simply dismantle any tracked or wheeled chassis into its component parts. Not to mention how high the trunnions will have to be raised so that the breech does not go into the ground during recoil.
          1. 0
            31 October 2023 01: 05
            The chassis for the capacitor would definitely have been modified if for some reason there were no missiles. Add recoil devices, make a bandura towed by some kind of MZKT and you're done. The shells in 2k23 can be made active-reactive, with tails like those of the Krasnopol, they will fly 80 kilometers. Ten shots in an hour - relocation. Or do you want to say that there are violations of the laws of physics and unsolvable technical problems?
            1. 0
              31 October 2023 11: 52
              Quote from alexoff
              The chassis for the capacitor would definitely have been modified if for some reason there were no missiles.

              20 meters long. 64 tons of mass without modifications. After modifications, we will get something that does not fit into the railway gauge, cannot be transported without disassembly and is incapable of traveling on ordinary roads. At the same time, it operates within the range of enemy corps artillery.
              In general, “little Karl”. smile
              Quote from alexoff
              The shells in 2k23 can be made active-reactive, with tails like those of the Krasnopol, they will fly 80 kilometers.

              Yeah... and they will deliver the equivalent of a 203 mm projectile to the target. For the "Condenser" the standard 16" projectile was already halved in weight.
              Quote from alexoff
              Ten shots in an hour - relocation.

              To the next world. Even in the 70th position, this monster would have been spotted in half an hour, after which the M107 would have been used on it.
              1. 0
                1 November 2023 19: 21
                Quote: Alexey RA
                20 meters long. 64 tons of mass without modifications. After modifications, we will get something that does not fit into the railway gauge, cannot be transported without disassembly and is incapable of traveling on ordinary roads. At the same time, it operates within the range of enemy corps artillery.

                I wonder how they transport poplars and yars?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Yeah... and they will deliver the equivalent of a 203 mm projectile to the target. For the "Condenser" the standard 16" projectile was already halved in weight.

                Back then, conventional cannons didn’t fire too far, it’s surprising that a small one can do it, but such a big howitzer can’t, size apparently doesn’t matter
                Quote: Alexey RA
                To the next world. Even in the 70th position, this monster would have been spotted in half an hour, after which the M107 would have been used on it.

                How would you find it? Big radar? So you need to hit it before deploying the gun.
    4. -2
      30 October 2023 20: 51
      They will let you build such a wunderwaffle, they will even allow you to supply charges and allow the crew to fire the first shot, and then they will cover you with something modern that was handed over by Western partners.
      No matter how hard they try to hide such a thing from satellites, it will still be difficult to hide the preparations for construction.
      1. 0
        31 October 2023 01: 09
        If you could read carefully, you would have noticed words about electronic warfare, a GPS jammer and a shell. You can also place spotlights directed upwards across the area to illuminate the satellites. And also place wooden models here and there to complicate the work of intelligence. Believe it or not, there are a million solutions to military problems with the proper use of brains.
        1. 0
          3 November 2023 19: 51
          Now for some real life economics. Transferring such stray piecemeal is not the most secretive event. Even with good camouflage and organization (a difficult undertaking), there are few guarantees that the movement will be undetected through indirect leakage channels. For such a prodigy, you need to prepare a place in advance, preferably without attracting attention. Then bring it, assemble it, prepare it, work it out, have time to disassemble it and take it away. Now let's calculate the costs:
          You can’t transport such stray stuff by SDEK or Russian Post, delivery even by train will be expensive, because you can’t just throw it into gondola cars;
          prepare the installation site in advance and this is not half a day of work by the MSL engineering platoon;
          organize and ensure delivery in parts to the place of application;
          organize assembly and fitting in place and all this with an organized electronic warfare system, air defense around this stray and also place searchlights to illuminate the satellites (it is very interesting how many arc minutes of the sky they will illuminate);
          Electronic warfare with air defense and searchlights will not protect against the DRG in any way, so it will also be necessary to organize security around the perimeter;
          all this machinery must be supplied with fuel, and people must be fed, watered and accommodated, someone must be treated;
          experience shows that the fuel will not bring itself, people will not start ammunition either due to dampness.
          How many millions of millions will it cost? And how much cheaper will it be than launching an Iskander or resetting a planning FAB? How much of a headache will all the organizational issues take?
          Brains must be used wisely and choose the most optimal and effective from a million military solutions, and not play with toys. This is everything beautiful and wonderful in computer strategies.
  7. +5
    29 October 2023 05: 19
    The theme of the backwardness of the Soviet artillery is not fully disclosed; the author lags somewhat behind modern trends in covering the USSR.
    1. +4
      29 October 2023 12: 37
      Quote: saigon
      The theme of the backwardness of Soviet artillery has not been fully disclosed

      It is enough that the “backward” Soviet artillery won its main victory over the advanced Western artillery in 1945, and until the collapse of the army, not a single louse dared to crawl on Soviet soil.
      Quote: saigon
      The author is somewhat behind modern trends in coverage of the USSR.

      So should you flag pen in hand - stand on a par with modern historians and practitioners of the Soviet period. They will talk about galoshes and the lack of meat cattle breeds, and you will talk about the advantages of the Russian economy and the successes of Rostec over the Soviet one in the cost/return combination...
      We will be surprised... How surprised we are that “Soviet artillery” has become a proper name.
      * * *
      Ignorant also in blindness
      Scolding science and learning,
      And all the scientific works,
      Not feeling that he tastes their fruit.
      1. 0
        12 November 2023 18: 14
        Yes, irony is not something you know, however.
  8. +9
    29 October 2023 05: 35
    The projectile still has one quality that drones do not have - it flies more stealthily and quickly... It is much more difficult to intercept and destroy

    This is the very advantage that overshadows the low cost of drones...
    1. +2
      29 October 2023 12: 45
      Quote: Luminman
      This is the very advantage that overshadows the low cost of drones...

      Undoubtedly...
      However, the development and improvement of hypersonic weapons, the creation of high-precision tactical missiles (MLRS) of the type:
      Equipped with a system for autonomous correction of the flight trajectory of rockets in pitch and yaw angles, carried out according to signals from the control system for gas-dynamic devices (adjustable ammunition). The projectiles are stabilized by twisting them along the launch guides and being supported in flight by the opening blades of the fins. When firing in one gulp, the dispersion of projectiles does not exceed 0,3% of the firing range. To provide target designation, a UAV can be used (also launched from a combat vehicle - a 9M534 missile). Missiles can be equipped with a monoblock or cassette type warhead. A salvo of 300 mm caliber rockets from one combat vehicle, equipped with a cassette warhead with 72 cumulative fragmentation elements, affects an area of ​​up to 67,2 hectares. The firing range is up to 120 km, with the possibility of increasing it to 200 km in the future.

      capable of competing with ultra-long-range artillery both in efficiency of use and in mobility... They will probably have the ability to fire from short stops...
    2. 0
      29 October 2023 18: 52
      Watching how the lancet flies into three axes or the Mavik throws something “no more” at it, you understand that there is somehow no smell of advantage here. The situation looks like this - there are hunter drones and there is a prey with a “long advantage” that is hiding from them. So, about the “scapulas”, you got excited. And judging by the video from the LBS, the efficiency of drones is much higher than that of a “sling for an iron blank.”
    3. 0
      3 November 2023 20: 01
      This is the very advantage that overshadows the low cost of drones...
      What if it’s a small swarm of a couple of dozen drones? Which in total are still cheaper and lighter than the artillery mount and the shells in it.
  9. +4
    29 October 2023 05: 46
    Finale of ultra-long-range artillery

    Looks like she's already been buried if the title of the article contains the word "final" wink
  10. +3
    29 October 2023 05: 48
    I’m embarrassed to ask, which US Navy destroyers, besides Zumvolt, have 155 mm guns? Thank you!¿
  11. +6
    29 October 2023 06: 29
    and the appearance in its ranks first marshal Comrade Tukhachevsky

    “And the first marshal will lead us into battle!” - sang in a popular Soviet song about Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov.

    Tukhachevsky was one of the first 5, but officially Voroshilov was the first.
    For some reason the so-called V-3 (V-3), "multi-chamber artillery gun, also known by the code name "High Pressure Pump" (HDP) and the names "Centipede", "Buddy", "Industrious Lizhen", "English Gun", was one of projects of the heavy "Weapons of Retribution", work on which was personally supervised by Hitler. The gun had a total length of 124 m, a caliber of 150 mm, a weight of 76 tons. The barrel of the HDP gun consisted of 32 sections 4,48 m long; each section had two located along the barrel and charging chambers at an angle to it (a total of 60 side charging chambers). The gun used a swept-finned projectile weighing up to 140 kg and a length of up to 3250 mm [Note 1]. The explosive charge in the projectile was about 25 kg. The flight range of the swept-back projectile was According to calculations, it reached 165 km." (Wikipedia).

    The Soviet 406 mm gun B-37, which even managed to fight a little during the defense of Leningrad, has also been forgotten.
  12. +10
    29 October 2023 06: 32
    "there is no point in continuing work on creating artillery systems that fire at a distance of more than 100 km"

    this is at a time when in the steppes of Ukraine the range of artillery and counter-battery reconnaissance weapons are almost the main determining factor of the war. hmm.
    The “coalition” is already firing at 70-80 km. the next generation of artillery systems will hit even further. and in the west, work is in full swing on projectiles with ramjet engines.
    1. +1
      29 October 2023 19: 02
      “This is at a time when in the steppes of Ukraine the range of artillery and counter-battery reconnaissance weapons are almost the main determining factor of the war.” - looking at the lunar landscape of hundreds and hundreds of craters, in the middle of which stands an entire support structure built from sticks, somehow the “determining factor” fades..
      1. -1
        3 November 2023 20: 18
        Well, they only write about the shot range, and not about accuracy. Not a word about accuracy about this, the main thing is to throw it away. Therefore, taking the opornik turns into correction using a drone, and in the absence of such (there are many different and beautiful ones on TV) into heroic feats of reconnaissance or fire spotters.
    2. +2
      30 October 2023 13: 45
      Quote: squid
      The “coalition” is already firing at 70-80 km. the next generation of artillery systems will hit even further. and in the west, work is in full swing on projectiles with ramjet engines.

      And when the cost of such shells becomes equal to the adjustable RS, the topic of ultra-long-range artillery will die.

      Although no, it will die earlier - when it turns out that measures to ensure flight range (bottom gas generator, booster engine) and hit accuracy (goal seeker) will make the 155-mm projectile comparable in power to the 76-mm. Because the volume of the projectile body is finite, and everything that we put into it additionally takes away the volume and mass of the explosive. But the projectile body cannot be lightened - it must withstand the pressure of the powder gases and acceleration from zero to 1000 m/s at 10 meters of the barrel.

      You can, of course, pervert it with smooth acceleration with an expelling charge and further further acceleration of the projectile using the built-in engine... but in this way we will simply reinvent rocket artillery again. laughing
      1. -1
        30 October 2023 15: 23
        neither one nor the other will ever happen.
        missiles are also not getting cheaper, the same Excalibur costs several times less than a Javelin, with an incommensurable range and power. a missile will always be much more expensive than a projectile of similar range and power due to the presence of a full-fledged engine.
        the second is also controversial. the volume of the projectile is not too limited (the length can be increased) - the mass is limited. but due to miniaturization, guidance systems, on the contrary, will take up less and less space - the history of the evolution of Krasnopol is an example of this.
        even with the hypothetical invention of projectiles with ramjet engines, they should still be cheaper than rockets - due to the lack of an accelerating stage.
        1. +1
          30 October 2023 18: 16
          Quote: squid
          missiles are also not getting cheaper, the same Excalibur costs several times less than a Javelin, with an incommensurable range and power.

          What do adjustable artillery shells and ATGMs have to do with it? Compare what is comparable - an adjustable self-propelled gun projectile and the same MLRS RS.
          In this case:
          Excalibur cost about 2021 kilobucks in 115.
          M31 GMLRS costs about 2023 kilobucks in 168.
          At the same time, the M31 has a range of more than 90 km and delivers the equivalent of a 203-m projectile to the target.
          Quote: squid
          the second is also controversial. the volume of the projectile is not too limited (the length can be increased)

          Then the dimensions and weight of the AZ will come in, followed by the self-propelled guns.
          Quote: squid
          even with the hypothetical invention of projectiles with ramjet engines, they should still be cheaper than rockets - due to the lack of an accelerating stage.

          Nope. Taking into account the need to fit the filling into the body and the calculation of the projectile body and its filling for overloads and pressure during firing, the cost of the projectile may be higher than the cost of a classic RS, where there are fewer restrictions on dimensions, and overloads during launch are much lower.
  13. +7
    29 October 2023 06: 52
    "Ultra-Long-Range Artillery Finale"
  14. +3
    29 October 2023 07: 07
    I remember, under Saddam Hussein, either a Belgian or a Dutchman, I don’t remember, made him a cannon for shelling Israel. Naturally, the Jews killed him, no matter what was common. There was an uproar about this in Europe. But the cannon seemed to be almost assembled, and... But then I would like to find out how and what was there. And in general this whole story in more detail.
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 07: 34
      Quote: Kruglov
      either a Belgian or a Dutchman made his cannon,

      It seems like some English people
    2. -2
      29 October 2023 08: 37
      Quote: Kruglov
      I remember, under Saddam Hussein, either a Belgian or a Dutchman, I don’t remember, made him a cannon for shelling Israel. Naturally, the Jews killed him, no matter what was common. There was an uproar about this in Europe. But the cannon seemed to be almost assembled, and... But then I would like to find out how and what was there. And in general this whole story in more detail.

      Such a weapon will not take off. It's getting too big. The Germans built something like this back in WWII, but the cannon was hit by heavy bombs.
    3. +4
      29 October 2023 09: 57
      the gun was made either by a Belgian or a Dutchman
      Canadian Gerald Bull.
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 13: 48
        Quote: Bolt Cutter
        Canadian Gerald Bull.

        By the way, the actual “father” of all current long-barreled divisional artillery. It was thanks to him that 45-caliber guns first appeared, and then there was a massive transition to 47-52 caliber 155-mm guns. Before him, all divisional guns had barrels no longer than 39 calibers.
  15. +6
    29 October 2023 07: 32
    In this SVO (war) all types of weapons were buried. The strategists are outdated, helicopters are a big minus, tanks are the bottom, AND TD...AND TP... Maybe we need to move to a new level of understanding of combat operations? There is one weapon against the ZULUS, and another on equal terms.
    1. -3
      29 October 2023 08: 02
      There is one weapon against the ZULUS, but another on equal terms

      But what should the Zulus do when the Bushmen, “pumped up” by the white sahib, are against them?
    2. -1
      29 October 2023 19: 38
      Quote: nazgul-ishe
      In this SVO (war) all types of weapons were buried. The strategists are outdated, helicopters are a big minus, tanks are the bottom, AND TD...AND TP... Maybe we need to move to a new level of understanding of combat operations? There is one weapon against the ZULUS, and another on equal terms.


      Conventional dead end.
    3. 0
      3 November 2023 20: 27
      All have been replaced by damned, soulless drones, which are controlled by game joysticks and are available on Ali in any color scheme and at extremely reasonable prices, which are mass-produced in huge quantities.
  16. -2
    29 October 2023 07: 33
    Quote: Aerodrome
    in conditions of EMP use, these drones and “smart” missiles will be worthless. That’s when simple art systems will come to the fore

    simple art systems are for Papuan wars, lunar landscapes of destroyed villages will not let you lie...
  17. +2
    29 October 2023 07: 35
    Quote: squid
    the “coalition” is already shooting at 70-80 km

    if only on TC "star" ...
  18. +6
    29 October 2023 07: 35
    Who recently wrote that Roman will soon reach the artillery? What's next to be consigned to the dustbin of history, small arms? The range of modern weapons is huge, I don’t want to write about it. And if you also connect the fleet, “it’s a disaster”! laughing
    1. +3
      29 October 2023 14: 17
      I'm worried about the infantry, who are not protected from everything...
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 09: 49
        Yes, not for the infantry, exoskeletons are coming, and the armor and weapons of the infantry in exoskeletons will be at the level of a tank, and then, like in the movie Pacific Rim
        1. 0
          30 October 2023 11: 43
          So anyway, such infantry will be blown up by anti-tank mines and by drones. That's why we need an army of terminators
          1. 0
            30 October 2023 14: 31
            No, terminators are rebelling, a bunch of films have already been made on this topic, we need them
            or such
            1. 0
              31 October 2023 01: 11
              So they will be locked up. Or an FPV drone will fly in with a chain, wrap it around your legs and that’s it, it falls. You can make evangelions, they are indestructible, but the ending is very complicated, I’m afraid humanity is not ready for this
  19. +5
    29 October 2023 07: 41
    Speaking about guns whose firing range exceeds 100 km, we must admit that today these systems have practically lost out to drones and missiles. And there is no point in continuing work on creating artillery systems that fire at a distance of more than 100 km.

    Americans are certainly fools. Everything is straight according to Zadornov.
    The M1299 Extended Range program is an American prototype 155 mm self-propelled howitzer developed by BAE Systems in 2019 as part of the Cannon Artillery (ERCA). It is based on the M109A7 howitzer and was primarily designed to increase the effective range of the M109.
    Effective firing range
    70 km (43 mi) (missile)
    110 km (68 mi) (round XM1155)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1299_howitzer
  20. -2
    29 October 2023 07: 52
    What is in Russia? They didn’t build such monsters in Russia, but they wanted to in Soviet Russia. There was something flawed in trying to “catch up and overtake” when there was nothing to catch up with, and even more so to overtake. But there was a desire.

    No, “something flawed” is an attempt to smear poop on your country.
    The author should grunt and leave his muzzle to be examined, something is wrong with it.
    1. 0
      30 October 2023 01: 26
      For the author, as for many at VO, that country is not their own. But this has nothing to do with Banderostan. Another level.
  21. -1
    29 October 2023 08: 33
    The author makes a big mistake when comparing specialized long-range guns from the times of the world wars and long-range projectiles of our time. Long-range guns were in the reserve of the Headquarters and were used exclusively with its permission in some very important sectors of the front, but a long-range projectile can be loaded into any howitzer. Accordingly, if a target is spotted behind enemy lines, there is no need to pull up long-range guns or wait for the URAGAN RZSO to arrive, but you can immediately open fire from the nearest howitzer.
  22. 0
    29 October 2023 08: 50
    Nowadays they simply don’t engage in long-range, large-caliber stationary artillery. But maybe someone will come up with a bunch of modern materials and technologies and come up with something.
    Where is such artillery needed in our time? These are naval bases, coastal cities like St. Petersburg, Vladivostok, Sevastopol. A firing zone of even 120 km with high-precision projectiles is not bad at all.
    Let us recall the experience of using large-caliber artillery in WWII in Sevastopol and Leningrad. soldier
  23. -1
    29 October 2023 09: 25
    Something is heard crying from the windows of my house: “...Where is the Coalition-SV...?” But seriously: you need a gun weighing no more than a standard one, but capable of delivering a 3-5 mm projectile at 152 with an accuracy of 203-80 meters KVO -100 km There will be such things, it’s just that technology doesn’t allow it yet.
    1. -4
      29 October 2023 09: 55
      Welded for firing stationary targets with adjustable projectiles, you can use a stationary barrel of large caliber and increased length installed in an inclined shaft
    2. +1
      29 October 2023 18: 03
      152-203 m is army artillery. She has no tasks at such depth. The army has Smerch, and there is also the opportunity to call in aviation. So don’t burden your artillery brother with unnecessary tasks.
  24. +1
    29 October 2023 12: 41
    It would be strange for Roman to not understand artillery.
    1. +3
      29 October 2023 13: 03
      It would be strange if he understood anything drinks
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 10: 04
        Truly, "Allah Akbar!" I added the last two words forcedly, but without any joke, since the moderator says there is not enough text. However, God is great and the kingdom is hers!
        1. 0
          30 October 2023 10: 07
          My point is that you won’t find such an “expert” on any issue as Roman the Homomaniac.
        2. 0
          30 October 2023 10: 13
          “Allah Akbar! Ashshardu illahla illallah!” That’s all I remember about Islam and it’s from L. Tolstoy’s story “Prisoner of the Caucasus.” If you offend anyone, be lenient.
  25. +1
    29 October 2023 13: 06
    For artillery, mobility and the number of shells fired per unit of time are more important. He pulled up, poured out a couple of dozen and ran away.
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 18: 06
      Yeah, and there are a dozen more fire missions on the division commander’s notebook. And you got screwed with the OP. Before the formation they will be shot and deservedly so.
  26. +1
    29 October 2023 13: 12
    Who can explain to me why everyone pulls the blanket over themselves? This is how we fight, unfortunately. In my sofa-like opinion, all UAVs and artillery and reconnaissance and space should work. Why are UAVs not effective in counter-battery warfare? Yes, because we need UAVs with round-the-clock surveillance, and the strikers must already be ready for defeat with a minimum of time. That’s when counter-battery warfare will become effective.
    1. +2
      30 October 2023 15: 41
      Because there is no automated control system that is easy to use and accessible to every drone operator, every platoon commander, every artillery crew, albeit on primitive communication channels. There is no simple electronic map with targets and their coordinates. At a high level, the system can be very complex, but at the lower level you need a simple one with limited rights, possibly with add-on application modules.
  27. The comment was deleted.
  28. +2
    29 October 2023 13: 22
    It seems to me that the commentators did not understand a little what the article was about. Described art. systems are not means of counter-battery warfare. And certainly not front-line artillery guns. These are systems for hitting stationary targets far behind the front line. Manufactured piece and equipped with special ammunition. There was never any talk about the efficiency of their deployment, transfer and use. German ultra-long-range guns took weeks to move to the shooting site. They shot almost once an hour, or even less often. Look at the statistics of the first system given in the article. Over 5 months (relatively 150 days) 360 (and a little) shots. This is 2 shots per day. And 3 on weekends :) Despite the fact that for shooting it was necessary to lay a railway line and equip a concrete platform with rails.
    Even the special power 280 and 305 mm Soviet systems mentioned in the comments were, to put it mildly, not very mobile. For example, Br-5 was transported disassembled by a group of tractors and assembled in about 2 hours.
    After the war, almost all countries of the world abandoned art in one way or another. systems with a caliber above 155 mm. A rare exception were the 203 mm guns. And then! They were created for the use of tactical nuclear weapons. During the period when the main carrier of nuclear weapons were bombers, the use of which for tactical purposes at that time was comparable to mass suicide.

    Now, with a variety of arsenals of missile systems, including guided and hypersonic ones, mastodons with a caliber of more than 155 mm simply do not make sense. And in general, in my opinion, the problem of conr. battery warfare is not about means of destruction. And in means of detection and target designation. The Iskander cassette warhead will reliably crush any battery at a distance of up to 500 km, and a deployed division is capable of controlling a front of at least 500 km, while being 100-200 km from the front. If, when an enemy battery starts operating, a control center is transferred to the Iskander, within a few minutes missiles will fly at this battery.
    If someone is confused by the price of the issue, then I advise you to estimate how much a long-range art. barrel costs. system, its platform and adjustable ammunition.
    Exactly the same can be said about the defeat of “city” type objects. Glide bombs.
    1. +4
      29 October 2023 17: 11
      Why don’t Iskanders crush any battery at least 500 km away in the area of ​​Avdeevka and Kupyansk? Who's stopping? And calculate how much a disposable missile costs, and a reusable artillery system with a whole set of different projectiles, which can destroy a tank and shoot into the enemy’s tactical depth. One Iskander costs no less than a regimental set of artillery.
      Who is to blame for the fact that we do not have Caesar-type artillery capable of conducting long-range anti-battery warfare? Thank you to the USSR for leaving us a huge legacy of artillery, otherwise they would now be digging the Surovikin line near Moscow or near Chelyabinsk. negative
      For now, artillery is the most accessible and inexpensive means of destruction. soldier
      The cost of Iskander is 400 million rubles, SAU-MSTA-S is 90 million rubles. hi
      1. 0
        29 October 2023 22: 57
        It seems that the Iskander cost about a hundred million. But the question, of course, is intelligence, which at the parade does not look as impressive as the Iskander. Although some Chinese wrote a long time ago that money invested in intelligence and spies is much more effective than in the army. Especially for Iskander, back in 2008, they ordered the development of the Stork drone for 5 billion, but everything did not go according to plan. Even the Orions, which supposedly have been riveting in three shifts for more than a year, are not noticeable over the front line, where there has been no enemy air defense larger than the Osa for a long time, they would have long ago knocked out all the old dry artillery, and they would not have fought much against the small Western artillery
  29. +8
    29 October 2023 13: 40
    The author is true to his creative credo - producing conclusions on a global scale based on complete ignorance of the issue, which he demonstrates “in the first lines” of his “letter”.
    Airplanes of that time could not carry bombs of a decent weight.




    The photograph from 1917 shows German PuW bombs that Gotha GV bombers (in the background of the photo) dropped on Britain.
    The largest bomb in the picture is a fifty-kilogram one, which contained 23 kilograms of explosives (the Paris Gun shell - 7 kg). But there were bombs weighing 1000 kg, containing about 460 kg of explosives.
  30. +1
    29 October 2023 13: 50
    It is surprising that in the modern world there is no work or research being carried out on the creation of large-caliber artillery mounts (200 mm and more).
    The energy of such guns (precisely when using modern technologies) will allow shelling to be carried out with a sufficient rate of fire and accuracy when using two directions of development.

    1) Either 120-150 mm projectiles are fired from a large-caliber cannon, which, given the caliber of the cannon itself (200+ mm), will generally be a sub-caliber projectile. Such a projectile will be equipped with the necessary means for adjusting the trajectory, but at the same time capable of flying at a distance of about 100 km. Since it will be launched with a significantly larger expulsion charge.

    2) We fire shells equal to the caliber of the gun, but we spend part of the free volume of the shell not on stuffing the shell with a bunch of explosives (after all, then we’ll just get a large-caliber gun from the WWII period, with a firing range of 20-30 km), but on filling the shell provide some means of acceleration. For example, a direct-flow engine, or a simple solid fuel one. Moreover, the number of explosives in a projectile of this caliber can be comparable to the number of explosives from modern 152-155 mm. shells. But the presence of a large amount of fuel in combination with a projectile flight correction system will allow this projectile to be launched through a large gun at 100+ km, with a deviation from the target of less than 10 m. Equipping a 250 mm projectile with a ramjet/solid propellant engine is still easier than 152 mm , and even while maintaining an acceptable number of explosives.

    Yes, in both cases the main problem of heavy guns comes to light - they are significantly less mobile than classic 120-150 mm guns. On the other hand, if they are not chasing giants with calibers of 600 or 800 mm. And it will be limited to calibers in the range UP TO 400 mm.
    Then we will be able to get a system of guns that can be quite mobile not only when used on rail, but also when used on our ground-based wheeled multi-axle platforms on which we place intercontinental missiles.

    And a partial return of guns to the fleet would be necessary. To a lesser extent for combating coastal targets (although for landing support ships, such artillery would not hurt). But mostly for combating directly against surface targets.
    Within a radius of 100-150 km. large-caliber cannon shells fired at enemy ships will be more dangerous than both light and heavy anti-ship missiles. Since the missiles are still forced to launch at intervals between each other, and to maintain the possibility of a one-time attack, they perform grouping maneuvers. Besides, the rocket still has to spend time accelerating. The missiles themselves are very bright and contrasting targets (they still have a jet engine with strong infrared radiation and a tail).
    While shells, launched in volleys, immediately form a dense group moving at maximum speed. At the same time, shells are still less contrasting than missiles. Especially if you build a system for accelerating or finishing a projectile so that when approaching targets, the engines no longer work and the projectile has time to be cooled by the oncoming air flow. But he only corrected the fall with his rudders.
    1. +2
      29 October 2023 15: 27
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      It is surprising that in the modern world there is no work or research being carried out on the creation of large-caliber artillery installations


      The gun carrier is too heavy and cumbersome. Recoil systems are too heavy and complex. Overly complex loading systems.
      And most importantly, it makes no sense to shoot at long distances without a projectile flight control system, just as it makes no sense to try to get a longer range with a passive projectile. And if the projectile has both a control system and a jet engine, then it becomes a rocket. Moreover, with an extremely unsuccessful first stage in the form of a cannon. The Americans stumbled upon this while trying to make “super-duper” shells for destroyers “belly up.” As a result, they got a rocket. But twice as expensive as usual.
  31. 0
    29 October 2023 13: 53
    Skoromorokhov is again looking in the wrong direction and analyzing!
    Artillery has a deadly effect on the battlefield! Look at the SVO! No Rambo, no Stallone, no mega-cool warrior can get through this wall! Massive artillery fire will stop any enemy!
    1. 0
      30 October 2023 09: 59
      So this is his credo. And you keep discussing the writings of this balabol.
  32. +2
    29 October 2023 14: 12
    Artillery remains the GOD of war, but for some reason our leaders and military men missed the firing range, which leads to difficulties in counter-battery work. Now only the Coalition can! We need to Catch up!
  33. +3
    29 October 2023 14: 29
    What is the problem? In price! One shot of the Zamvolta cannon costs 2 (TWO) million dollars! For comparison, a Tomahawk Block IV missile with a high-explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 340 kg flies to a distance of 1 km for half that amount. That is, for a million dollars.

    Open the official document - “Anti-Ship Missiles Top Marines $2.95B Fiscal Year 2022 Wishlist” dated June 2, 2021.
    It turns out that the cost of Block IV is 1,87 million dollars, Block V is 2 million dollars.
    But that's not the main point. The Tomahawk has been in production in the thousands since 1983. A pilot batch of 90 LRLAP shells was manufactured. The price of which includes all costs for development work. Therefore, comparing the price of Tomahawk and LRLAP is like comparing God's gift to scrambled eggs.
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 23: 00
      Well, this is the problem of the shell manufacturer that he did not convey to the Pentagon that if they buy in thousands, the price will drop 10 times.
  34. +3
    29 October 2023 15: 18
    conclusions about the ineffectiveness of ultra-long-range guns were made after the fact, based on the results of the First World War, they say, well, since the Germans lost, that means the guns are ineffective, an ordinary wunderwaffle, but in fact one gun fired 367 shells, and 256 dead is a very good result, because those who died are including workers and engineers, and if there were not just one gun but, say, several hundred, would Paris have had a hard time? and he would not have agreed to conclude a peace treaty with Germany, following the example of what Russia concluded in Brest, or maybe the revolution would have occurred in France and not in Germany and France would have lost and everyone would have said “what a great invention this is - Ultra-long-range guns, and aviation and the Douay doctrine is garbage"
  35. +1
    29 October 2023 15: 31
    Thank you for the article! It was very interesting to read. good
  36. +1
    29 October 2023 15: 39
    you can fantasize a little about the prospects of such guns in the present, an important feature of such guns is that the projectile goes almost into near space, which means that the possibilities of celestial navigation and correction using the star map become available to it, since the atmosphere does not obscure the stars, which means that you can abandon GPS and such a projectile will become invulnerable to electronic warfare systems like an ICBM warhead, cycle: shot - exit to the upper atmosphere - trajectory correction using gas-dynamic rudders - return to the atmosphere - further flight along a ballistic trajectory - hit or miss.. ..
  37. -1
    29 October 2023 16: 09
    Great article! While reading it, I hoped that something would be said about our Soviet Condenser-2P, but alas!
    1. +1
      29 October 2023 18: 11
      It is not long-range, it is large-caliber.
  38. +1
    29 October 2023 16: 55
    The speed of flight is critical; it allows you to “catch” MLRS such as high-mars, which “fired and ran away.” Stealth is also important; a projectile is very difficult to shoot down using air defense systems.
    Also, the small size of the shells allows you to carry a large amount of ammunition at once.
    Yes, artillery with UAS is an expensive solution, much more expensive than MLRS and drones, but there are situations in which it is indispensable, and first of all this is shooting at moving targets deep in enemy territory, with illumination from a small drone like the Orlan-30.
  39. -1
    29 October 2023 18: 52
    In conditions of counter-battery warfare and artillery duels between opposing sides, camouflage of a gun shot and radar signatures of the projectile flight path becomes of utmost importance. That is, it is necessary to introduce into the gun crew a device to muffle the sound, flame of a shot and mask the trajectory of a projectile throughout its flight. The main thing is to set the problem, and solving it is the second thing. Think, gentlemen, owners of factories and ships (I don’t think long), design engineers and comrade military inventors. Whoever creates this device - cheap and cheerful - will advance the “god of war” into the future.
  40. 0
    29 October 2023 19: 46
    The pointlessness of this was clear when the designers just took a pencil in their hands - and where were our super-duper guns planning to shoot - also at Paris? tongue
  41. +2
    29 October 2023 20: 24
    The Germans also had hypersonic missiles from the Dr. Wolf Trommsdorf system.
    With a supersonic or even more precisely hypersonic ramjet engine running on liquid fuel.
    The 210mm Trommsdorf C1 type projectile weighed a 90-kg projectile with 6 kg of fuel (a mixture of kerosene and carbon disulfide) during experimental firing in 1944, developed a speed of 1.5 km/s and flew to a distance of about 200 kilometers.
    The ramjet engine began to work immediately after the projectile left the muzzle and the active flight distance of the projectile was from 1.5 to 2,5 km, fuel was supplied to the engine due to centrifugal force.
    The maximum speed of the 210mm Trommsdorf projectile during experimental firing exceeded 2 km/s, but the accuracy of hits at long distances was no longer good at all; improvements were required to both the projectile itself and its ramjet engine.
    But these shells did not carry an explosive charge, it simply did not fit there and were only suitable as ultra-high-speed armor-piercing blanks for naval guns, the entire destructive and damaging effect of which lay in their kinetic energy alone, like meteorites.
    And with a firing distance of no more than 20-35 km, at long distances it was impossible to hit an enemy battleship or aircraft carrier.
    A bullet flying at a speed of 4 km/s carries in itself the same amount of kinetic energy as is released by a charge equal to its weight.
    Thus, a 210mm Trommsdorff type C1 projectile, when hitting a target (the armor of a battleship or cruiser), released approximately 15 kg of energy.
    Trommsdorf's first fireable high-explosive projectile was the 3mm C280 type for the K5 railway gun.
    The projectile weighed about 170 kg, had a fuel supply of about 16-17 kg and carried about 10 kg of explosives.
    Its speed reached over 1.8-1.9 km/s, and its range was 300-350 km.
    But the instability of the speed of the projectiles and the instability of the trajectory at such a distance reached such a degree that it was impossible to talk about any more or less targeted shooting at a distance of more than 35-40 km.
    Trommsdorf did not solve this extremely difficult problem.
    Although he was developing such shells in calibers: 305mm, 350mm, 380mm and 406mm and for the Dora cannon.
    After the war, these developments came to the USSR, along with their author.
    In the USSR they tried to continue this work, but were unsuccessful.
    Hypersonic missiles with ramjet systems of Dr. Wolf Trommsdorff would have remained an amusing curiosity.

    In 2018, the Norwegian company Nammo showed 155mm Trommsdorf shells suitable for mass production.
    A solid fuel ramjet is used, the fuel being carborane.
    The shells are suitable for use from any 155mm NATO howitzer.
    The flight range is over 100-120 km, the projectiles are adjustable, high-precision with active aerodynamic control.
    The explosive charge is about 5-6kg.


    "In 2017, the Baltic State Technical University "Voenmech" named after D.F. Ustinov at the International Military-Technical Forum "Army-2017" in Kubinka presented a sample of an artillery shell under the guise of "a domestic analogue of dual-use artillery ammunition with an increased flight range." The university’s material notes that the main tasks in the design and calculation of promising dual-use ammunition include providing ground artillery shells of 152 and 203 mm calibers, at a range of 70 km or more...


    The Russian analogue will meet the following characteristics: - projectile caliber - 152 mm - projectile weight - up to 48 kg - firing range - from 70 km. To ensure increased range, a design of artillery ammunition is proposed using a power plant that uses atmospheric air as part of the working fluid, including: - a warhead with a fuse; - rocket-ramjet engine of head or bottom location. Upon exiting the barrel, the projectile is stabilized by rotation, performing damped nutational oscillations. After a certain time necessary to reduce these oscillations, the ramjet engine is started. It provides additional acceleration of the projectile, increasing the trajectory speed, which leads to an increase in firing range.
    It is noted that by the time it is put into service, it will not only significantly surpass the ammunition currently used, but its characteristics will also be at the level of the best promising foreign developments. But already now, a twofold increase in the firing range of cannon artillery is being announced. In fact, such projectiles with an increased firing range become guided or adjustable mini-missiles, and the artillery itself acquires new properties and combat capabilities. Experts suggest that a 152-mm projectile with a ramjet engine can be used with the main artillery systems of the Russian army such as self-propelled howitzers "Msta-S" and "Coalition-SV", as well as towed howitzers "Msta-B" and guns "Hyacinth-B". There is also information that Russian specialists are working on a 203-mm long-range projectile with a ramjet engine, which is supposed to be used from long-range self-propelled artillery mounts 2S7M Malka. "
    1. 0
      29 October 2023 21: 11
      In many ways you are right. Except for the following. In war, thousands of guns and millions of shells are needed. Therefore it is very expensive. To cut costs, you need to shoot further, but more accurately. Everything you wrote about is a development from the times of the USSR. Alas, we are losing in: artillery reconnaissance, firing range (and this also means losing in counter-battery shooting), and shooting accuracy. The tactics of using guns have changed, the SOB is not able to line them up in a row, each gun must be able to be the main one and work as part of a platoon, battery, or division. Make ALL adjustments and be part of the whole. Are there military artillery schools for this in the Russian Federation? Where and who will train specialists for this?
  42. -2
    29 October 2023 21: 02
    What can I say... The projectile is an order of magnitude cheaper than the rocket. The only question is how to provide further and more accurately. Everything else is from the evil one.
  43. +2
    29 October 2023 23: 22
    A cast iron projectile and a shahid are not the same thing in terms of their effect on the target. A projectile with correction must be compared with a missile with the same seeker....in each caliber.
    I think that up to 152 a gun and a shell will be cheaper, and above MLRS/ROCKET
  44. +1
    30 October 2023 12: 06
    IMHO, planning FAB with guidance will completely replace long-range artillery. As long as the enemy does not have long-range air defense.
    1. 0
      30 October 2023 13: 08
      Quote: agond

      agond
      Yesterday, 09: 55
      NEW

      -4
      Alternatively, to fire stationary targets with adjustable projectiles, you can use a stationary barrel of large caliber and increased length installed in an inclined shaft

      Disadvantages - it seems that the humanities have pointed out the disadvantages, for reference, increased dispersion in ultra-long-range artillery is largely due to the vibration of a long barrel when fired (the extra-long barrel sags, it is necessary to use guy cables, etc.), installing a long barrel in an inclined shaft eliminates vibrations, by the way there were and there are projects for installing guns in mines to launch satellites into low orbits
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 15: 51
        How do you plan to carry out horizontal guidance in the mine?
        1. +1
          31 October 2023 09: 22
          Dig in a circle. What? Or soldiers take the products outside
          And there the commander will tell you.
  45. 0
    30 October 2023 13: 19
    It should be noted that the German wunderwaffle of the First World War had monstrous barrel wear, which is why a series of shells had different diameters to compensate for the effect. By the way, the photographs of the gun are doubtful, since its barrel was supported by a system of suspensions; it was too long. After each shot, this design took a very long time to recover from vibrations. For those who don’t believe, there was a separate article about the gun, with photographs
  46. +1
    30 October 2023 19: 13
    GPS is a very useful tool, but satellite signals can be jammed, and then such projectiles will be of little use.

    Here's some more nonsense... :)
    In this case, it switches to the inertial system, and as soon as it “passes” the area of ​​the electronic warfare zone, it turns on the GPS again...
    You can interfere if the target's electronic warfare is working...
    But even in this case, it is already practically aimed at the target and will reach it by inertia - the CEP will worsen and only...
  47. 0
    30 October 2023 19: 20
    The firing range exceeds 100 km, it must be admitted that today these systems have practically lost out to drones and missiles. And there is no point in continuing work on creating artillery systems that fire at a distance of more than 100 km.

    Nonsense... :)
    This is not a question of range at all, but a question of parity...
    The West has systems with a range of up to 70 km, but we don’t - that’s the whole market...
    They extinguish our counter-batteries from inaccessible distances, and we send drones there, which arrive at the place when there is no one there...
    And the buffoons assure us that this is how it should be... :)
  48. 0
    5 November 2023 16: 09
    Very interesting article. But there are glaring errors in the performance characteristics:
    1. Shahed-136 (Geranium-2) has warhead weight up to 50 kg, not 5kg
    2. Excalibur has warhead weight (not explosive): 5.4kg, and not 22 kg as indicated in the Russian-language Wikipedia.
    The English Wikipedia states correctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur