Corvettes pr. 20380 will undergo rearmament and receive modern missiles

"Steregushchy" is the lead corvette of Project 20380. In the central part of the superstructure two Uran missile launchers are visible. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

Currently for the naval fleet Project 20380 Steregushchy corvettes are being built in a large series in Russia. These ships receive a developed complex of guided missile weapons with systems for various purposes, with the help of which they can fight a variety of targets. At the same time, the fleet already sees the need to modernize this weapon system and introduce new types of missiles into it.

Modernization plan

The planned modification of the missile weapons of modern domestic corvettes was reported on October 19 by Izvestia, citing sources in the defense department. The latter provided general information about the prerequisites for the development of a new modernization project and assessed its possible results.

It is noted that during the current Special Operation to protect Donbass, surface ships with cruise missiles played a significant role. It is proposed to take into account this experience in using some of the existing ships and use them in new projects for the modernization of other pennants. First of all, attention was paid to the corvettes pr. 20380.

In the future, they plan to include Caliber cruise missiles in the armament package of such corvettes. In the future, it is possible to integrate the anti-ship complex with the Onyx supersonic missile. Such modernization of ships is still at the stage of working out the main technical issues.

Corvettes "Steregushchiy" and "Boikiy" of the Baltic Fleet. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

First of all, the search for the optimal option for deploying new weapons is underway. Several layout solutions of this kind are being considered. Thus, installations for “Caliber” and “Onyx” can be placed in the middle part of the ship, at the current location of the Uran complex. An option for placing transport and launch containers with long-range missiles is also proposed. weapons in a universal vertical launcher together with anti-aircraft missiles.

The final choice has not yet been made. Probably, the decision will be made in the near future, and this will allow the full development of the ship modernization project to begin. Izvestia’s sources did not specify the time frame for completing such work.

The approach to updating ships has already been determined. Thus, all new representatives of Project 20380 will immediately be built according to a modernized design and receive the corresponding missile weapons. Corvettes built and in service, in turn, will be equipped with new units and systems during planned repairs and upgrades. As a result, over time, the entire Guardian fleet will switch to modern long-range missile systems.

Ships with Uranus

According to Project 20380, modern multi-purpose corvettes / patrol ships are being built for the near and far sea zones. These are ships of the greatest length of 104,5 m with a total displacement of 2250 tons, equipped with a diesel-diesel main power plant. The ship's crew includes 100 people, incl. 14 officers. Based on the original corvette “20380”, several modernized projects with certain differences have been developed.

Corvette "Rezkiy" on the day of delivery to the customer, September 14, 2023. Photo by "USC"

Project 20380 ships are equipped with modern electronic, hydroacoustic, missile, artillery and anti-submarine weapons. With the help of various onboard systems, air, surface and underwater conditions are illuminated, and various targets are detected and hit, incl. posing the greatest danger. There is a helicopter on board, expanding the ship's combat capabilities.

As the main strike armament, the corvettes carry the Uran anti-ship missile system with the X-35U / 3M24 missile. The complex includes two launchers with four TPK missiles on each. They are located in the central part of the superstructure perpendicular to the axis of the ship; missiles are launched through the side.

The 3M24 anti-ship missile system is built according to a normal aerodynamic design and has an elongated body with X-shaped wings and stabilizers/rudders. The length of the product is 4,4 m with a starting weight of 600 kg. With the help of a turbojet engine, the rocket develops a speed of about 0,8-0,85 M and covers 260 km. In a recent modernization project, the range was increased to 500 km. Target search is carried out by active radar seeker ARGS-35. The anti-ship missile carries a high-explosive fragmentation penetrating warhead weighing 145 kg, capable of disabling surface targets with a displacement of up to 5 thousand tons.

Prospective samples

The Uran missile is initially intended to destroy large surface targets. Also, during testing and in practice, the possibility of attacking and destroying ground targets was demonstrated. However, with all its advantages, the shipborne Kh-35U is inferior in basic characteristics to other modern types of missile weapons. This negatively affects the overall capabilities of Project 20380 corvettes in comparison with ships of newer projects.

Kh-35UE missile of the Uran complex. Photo: Wikimedia Commons

The capabilities to combat surface and coastal targets are proposed to be improved by using the P-800/3M55 Oniks anti-ship missile, already used on other ships of a number of types. This is a missile with a launch weight of 3 tons and a 300-kg warhead, developing a speed of 2,6 m in flight. Range is 300 km for the original modification and 800 km in the updated version “Oniks-M”. In all respects, the 3M55 is superior to the 3M24 and should be a more useful impact weapon in most situations.

"Uran" can attack ground targets, but in this role it is inferior to specialized missiles. In this regard, it is proposed to equip the corvettes with the Caliber complex. Its 3M54 cruise missiles at high subsonic flight speeds have a range of approx. 2,5 thousand km and carry warheads weighing 400 kg. In addition, the guidance systems of such a missile are optimized for flight over land and destruction of ground targets.

In general, the introduction of the Onyx and Caliber complexes will have a positive impact on the combat qualities of the Project 20380 corvettes. The range of hitting targets, the likelihood of breaking through enemy defenses, and the impact on the target will increase most seriously. However, to obtain such capabilities, it is necessary to refine the design of the ship and install the corresponding units. At the same time, several options for such changes to the corvettes are being considered. Which one the customer and contractor will choose will become clear later.

Missile fleet

Corvettes pr. 20380 have been built since the beginning of the 2001s. The lead ship Steregushchy was laid down at the Severnaya Verf shipyard (St. Petersburg) in 2006, launched in 2008 and accepted into the Baltic Fleet in 2011. Then, at the same enterprise, four more ships were built, accepted by the customer from 2023 to XNUMX. Another corvette is now being prepared for testing and should enter the fleet next year.

Launch of Caliber missiles by a ship of the Buyan-M project. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

The construction of corvettes pr. 20380 is also carried out by the Amur Shipyard (Komsomolsk-on-Amur). In 2006, he laid down his first ship of this type, which was delivered in 2017. In 2018-23 Three more pennants were transferred to the Pacific Fleet. The next two corvettes are at different stages of construction.

Nine Steregushchiy-class corvettes handed over to the Navy carry the Uran missile system. The next ship built by Severnaya Verf will most likely receive the same weapons. For the next two orders of the Amur Plant in the light of the latest News there is no clarity.

Reportedly, the Navy command decided to re-equip the Project 20380 corvettes and introduce new missile systems. A project for such a modernization should be developed in the near future, the implementation of which will begin over the next few years. Apparently, the corvettes will be rearmed as part of scheduled repairs, and this process may take considerable time. The exact timing of such work remains unknown, but the result is already clear.

It should be recalled that based on the 20380, two more types of modern corvettes were developed - projects 20385 and 20386. Their main differences lie in the size of the ship and standard armament. Thus, it was decided to abandon the Uran complex and use universal 3S14 launchers with eight cells on each ship. Due to this, the corvette immediately gains the ability to use Caliber, Onyx, etc. missiles.

The Stoiky corvette uses the Poliment-Redut air defense system with a vertical launcher. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

The lead ship of Project 20385, “Gremyashchiy”, was built at Severnaya Verf in 2012-20. and has already begun service in the Pacific Fleet. In 2024-25 The second corvette of this type is expected to be delivered. Four more similar ships are in the workshops of the Amur Plant at various stages of construction. They will be delivered in 2026-28. and will also be transferred to the Pacific Fleet. According to the next project 20386, the ship “Daring” is being built. It was launched in 2021 and will be handed over to the customer in the coming years. However, there are no plans to continue the series.

Course towards unification

Thus, over the next years, a total of 12 corvettes of the original Project 20380 will appear in the Navy, the bulk of which will then have to be modernized according to a new project. In addition, the industry will build at least seven new ships “20385” and “20386” - they will immediately have the necessary equipment, as well as modern and advanced weapons.

After completion of all construction and modernization processes, the corvettes of the 20380 family will have a unified weapons system with the same missiles. In addition, they will use the same weapons as other modern ships, from the small missile Buyanov-M and Karakurt to the modernized heavy Admiral Nakhimov, etc.

Thus, the Russian Navy is taking another step towards increasing the tactical and technical characteristics and combat qualities of individual ships, formations and formations while reducing operating costs. One of the main and most important ways to solve such problems is the unification of the armament of ships of different types, and in the coming years this will be done by the already built Guardian ships.

Comments

[Ross xnumx]

The existing developments of shipborne air defense systems and Zircon missiles specifically determine the development paths for small missiles, corvettes and other types of warships.
The news (based on British intelligence materials) that, under the conditions of the Northern Military District, the Russian industry is producing 100 missiles per month does not cause delight. And then there’s Onyx. Slogan: “Less is better!” in today's situation, it's time to change it to: “More is better, but better!”
* * *
Only in connection with the appearance of underwater drones by the enemy, the dilemma of using the fleet arose... Maybe ONLY from the Caspian Sea or Lake Ladoga?

[ramzay21]

Why build 20380, if it has long been clear that it is necessary to build 20385, which has UKSK?
It’s even more incomprehensible why build an unarmed 20386 at the price of an excellent frigate 22350?
Sabotage or embezzlers can't get drunk?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: ramzay21

Sabotage or embezzlers can't get drunk?

This is not sabotage. This is the lack of a strategy for war at sea given the available number of ships. Hence the direct lack of knowledge about the ship’s armament, in connection with its purpose. There are few Soviet naval commanders left. And if there were any new battles, we don’t know about them, except for the sinking of the Kursk, the epic with the AS-12, the Moskva RK and some other ships and auxiliary vessels, the location of an American nuclear submarine in the area of ​​the TF exercises... Maybe they don’t tell us... But, most likely, there is nothing to tell except the firing of “Calibers”... Parades don’t count... As do repairs and modernizations...
You understand perfectly well that things are moving where they not only know what to do, but also have the appropriate professional skills.

* * *
Look, just on the news Mr. Degtyarev spoke about the huge (200 rubles) funds allocated by the President of the Russian Federation for the modernization of urban transport.
Compared to this amount, Colonel Zakharchenko’s 8 rubles are nothing!

Colonel Zakharchenko, detained almost three years ago, has been sentenced. The court considered that his correction was “impossible without isolation from society,” but did not find him guilty on the main episode of the case—a bribe of $800. The court did not answer the question about the origin of 8,5 billion rubles found in the apartment of the sister of a high-ranking policeman

* * *
Let's break through...

[Mustached Kok]

I would even rephrase that it is not the absence of a “strategy for war at sea.” This can be done by a competent and highly educated group of Navy officers in a couple of months, based on the experience and trends of the last 10-15 years and the calculations of theorists.
The problem is that the country’s leadership has no understanding of WHAT the FLEET is, what it IS and SHOULD be. And representatives of the leadership of the fleet itself DO NOT DO anything to make the leadership stop thinking like this, but simply occupy positions and carry out haphazard changes to the fleet through local modernization of ships and rare modernization of infrastructure. Everything - to receive a salary and not be removed from a cushy position.

[Wbond]

....this is sabotage - deliberate failure or careless performance of certain duties, hidden opposition to the implementation of something...

[Sergey39]

The author did not fully study the topic he was covering.
Construction of the corvette pr. 20386 is closed. They will decide what to do with the hull and superstructure.
The previously laid down 3 corvettes 20380 are being completed, and then only corvettes pr. 20385 were laid down and are being built.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: ramzay21

Why build 20380, if it has long been clear that it is necessary to build 20385, which has UKSK?

20380, apparently, was ordered as cheap corvettes for the OVR. Because we have no other serial corvette projects.

Quote: ramzay21

It’s even more incomprehensible why build an unarmed 20386 at the price of an excellent frigate 22350?

But they are not building it. Although the article says that:

According to the next project 20386, the ship “Daring” is being built. It was launched in 2021 and will be handed over to the customer in the coming years.

In fact, the "Daring-Mercury-Daring" program has been closed, and the launched hull is being redesigned into something suitable for the Navy

[Serg65]

Quote: ramzay21

Why build 20380

Don't read the article sideways!

Quote: ramzay21

why build unarmed 20386

Are they being built?

Quote: ramzay21

Sabotage or embezzlement

Idle talker? Screamer?

[bayard]

Quote: ramzay21

Why build 20380, if it has long been clear that it is necessary to build 20385, which has UKSK?

You see, Vasily, the fact is that now only 20385 are being laid down, but the already built corvettes turned out to be not only under-armed, but they are not capable of using anti-ship missiles, which, given the capabilities of modern submarines with torpedoes, has a range of 50+ km. , puts this corvette in a duel situation in a obviously losing situation. Even if they simultaneously detect each other, the enemy submarine will be able to strike from a safe distance and perform a maneuver to evade contact. There is, of course, a helicopter, but it still needs to be lifted, and for this the sea must be calm enough, the helicopter must be fueled and equipped, stand on the helicopter landing pad with the crew on board... This is not a very good situation. The only thing that equalizes the situation is the presence on board of the UKSK with PLURs loaded in it with a range of exactly 50+ km.
And now we already have... a decent number of 20380 corvettes with inferior weapons, and... SUDDENLY... something came to the attention of the high authorities.
Peace of mind it happens .
What can be done to quickly and optimally modernize such ships in order to get rid of these shortcomings?
Something is possible.
To begin with, we need to decide whether we need a helicopter on board for permanent deployment. The helipad is not discussed, but... his HANGAR on such a small ship takes up too much space... So let's remove it! And in its place we will install one, or even two (if it fits, and maybe quite) UKSK with 8 cells in each. We place the cells across the axis of the ship, like the Karakurt.
Oops Yes, we got such a beast without any extra hassle!!! And at the same time, the ship is capable of receiving a helicopter. Moreover, if you really want to, you can also install a sliding/folding light hangar to cover the turntable if you want to spend the night.
This was the first option. But we have naval commanders with a temper, they can, because of the helicopter hangar, rest their horns on the deck... although if you look at the autonomy of the ship, then it would not be worthwhile to resist - after all, a littoral ship was created for a 200-mile zone. Therefore, in case of an inadequate reaction to the removal of the hangar, I immediately propose the SECOND modernization option. It will be more complicated and more expensive, and may also cause some disturbances, but a ship is always a set of compromises. So :
The second option involves replacing the air defense system from "Redut" with "Pantsir-M", and we will install this wonderful air defense system... in place of the gun turret And there is nowhere else.
But in place of the Reduta air defense missile launcher, we put the UKSK on 8 or even 12 cells of strike weapons and PLUR. If 12 cells enter, it will be simple wonderful, because 4 cells in the basic configuration will be occupied by the “Answer” anti-ship missile, 4 cells of the “Onyx” anti-ship missile system or, dare I say it, “Zircon”, and 4 more cells of the “Caliber” missile launcher for striking ground targets.
I’ll immediately reassure you about the replacement of the main battery gun - in its place will be the Pantsir-M combat module with TWO six-barreled rapid-firing 30 mm guns. And if this turns out to be not enough for the enemy in line of sight... or the distance is great, then you can use the Pantsir-M missile defense system to strike a surface target in line of sight. They (Shell missiles) are inexpensive, there are 32 of them in the BC. + 8 more pcs. on the launch module. It seems to me that such a mandolin can cope with any task. These are not 12 Reduta missile defense systems with a cosmic price tag and... a shorter range than the Pantsir-M.
Let's see what we got?
But we ended up with two modernization options.
The first is the fastest and cheapest, but allows you to get up to 16 PLUR, RCC and CRBD cells on the hangar site. At the same time, we still have 8 pieces left on our waist. "Uranov"!! And we do not touch the air defense system. And we still have the opportunity to receive a helicopter and even a limited time for its deployment. The easiest option to implement. At the same time, the corvette receives SUCH fangs that it can go to the AUG alone, with high-quality target designation, of course. At the same time, air defense capabilities remain the same, i.e. very limited. Total 12 missiles this is so-so air defense, even for a corvette.
The second modernization option is much more complex, more expensive and will require more time. But at the same time, the ship acquires completely new capabilities in air defense - many times greater both in range and in terms of ammunition load for missiles... and even 12 rapid-fire anti-aircraft artillery barrels. Its ammo capacity in the UKSK is somewhat more modest than that of the first option, but if it is possible to fit 12 cells, this will be more than enough for a harmonious composition of weapons. And this is not counting 8 Uran anti-ship missiles! In addition, this modernization option leaves the helicopter hangar in place... I am sure that the admirals in this place will breathe a sigh of relief.
I consider trying to push the UKSK onto the waist, where the inclined Uranov launchers are now located, the worst solution, because this will require a serious restructuring of all the internal premises and as a result will give a ship with much less combat capabilities than the first two options.
I don't see any other solutions. Yes, they are not needed.
And knowing that the management, guided by their skills in perpendicular thinking, will still choose the worst option... they will most likely choose third option. It will turn out so-so, it will still take a lot of time and money, and the result will be... so-so.
I would choose the second option as the most balanced.
Or the first one, if everything needs to be done as quickly as possible and at the lowest cost.

Quote: ramzay21

It’s even more incomprehensible why build an unarmed 20386 at the price of an excellent frigate 22350?

Calm down, no one will build this freak and even complete the head one. Rakhmanov was fired, I think he will be jailed for theft... or rather, for embezzlement. And Evmenov said that in the shipbuilding program there is no more game, fancy R&D and experiments with cutting. For once, the Country and the Navy needed... ships. And even with sufficient combat capabilities.
I think Klimov will be happy with this news.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: bayard

ships. And even with sufficient combat capabilities.

1. regarding Zircon - calm down: they can only be placed on NK with W = 5000t+. In addition to the “trunks”, the complex also has hardware and a control system, so - “No way!”
2. you are belittling Redoubt a lot. after all, this is a medium-radius air defense system, and the Pantsir is a small one.
3. There’s no way you can have a Corvette without FOSS. And a pinwheel will obviously not be superfluous here. Therefore, I advise you to leave this topic alone. There will be a Lamprey - everything will fall into place.
4. The package needs to be “lightened” and switched to PLO guidance with the hull. otherwise there won't be enough space or scales...
This is so, briefly, essentially, without the thought spreading throughout the tree.
AHA.

[bayard]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

2. you are belittling Redoubt a lot. after all, this is a medium-radius air defense system, and the Pantsir is a small one.

I'm talking about those corvettes that received the Redut and Furke radar systems, and can only use short-range missiles. In addition, the air defense system has a range of 32-40 km. quite sufficient for a corvette.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

There’s no way you can have a Corvette without FOSS. And a pinwheel will obviously not be superfluous here.

What about using a helicopter from such a small ship? Doesn't the pitching interfere? In addition, the helipad remains, as does the opportunity to refuel.
If the question arises of the need for PLUR and strike missiles on board in the UKSK, then sacrificing a hangar to the corvette is quite acceptable. And he will be able to accept and use a helicopter anyway. This is a PLO corvette for BMZ with an autonomy of only 15 days.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

. The package needs to be “lightened” and switched to PLO guidance with the hull. otherwise there won't be enough space or scales...

Are you talking about a normal rechargeable TA for “Package” torpedoes?
I completely agree with this.

[novel66]

And we need to ask the Azarovs whether we can join the Caspian Sea or not

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: ROSS 42

The existing developments of shipborne air defense systems and Zircon missiles specifically determine the development paths for small missiles, corvettes and other types of warships.

No, no, Zircons are in the next modernization.
20380 with Uraniums was built when both Onyxes and Calibers existed. But it was impossible to immediately equip the corvettes with this type of missile; the designers would be left without work and money (!). Therefore, initially they laid down Uranus, then - hurray (!) modernization (!) and they will supply Onyxes with Calibers, and then - hurray (!) modernization (!) and they will supply Zircons.
For how many years are they provided with work and, most importantly, money?

[bayard]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

20380 with Uraniums was built when both Onyxes and Calibers existed.

There were no “Calibers” then, much less the “Answer” PLUR. There were already Onyxes, but this is an anti-submarine ship BMZ, it has to fight with submarines. Therefore, it was considered that “Uran” would be quite sufficient for the BMZ ship.
For comparison, NATO countries and China did not even have this class of anti-ship missiles on their frigates, so they looked at this “large corvette” as re-armed and in their classification called it a “light frigate”. The Chinese frigate Type. 054A also has 8 anti-ship missiles of the same class in two inclined launchers on the waist. So even now our corvettes look at the level of a light frigate in terms of the composition of their strike weapons.
But then the “Caliber” line of missile launchers appeared, which included both PLUR and anti-ship missiles with a supersonic warhead... And immediately Project 20385 was developed with an 8-cell UKSK. And the fact that it took so long to build the main one and the subsequent ones is to blame for the fascist coup in the Northern Black Sea region.
But the Northern Military District and the threat of an imminent major war pose the task of dramatically increasing the strike capabilities of the Fleet. The shipbuilding program was failed by citizen Rakhmanov and his curator and boss, citizen Manturov. The modernization program for Soviet ships is also overwhelmed - they managed to modernize a meager amount of what was possible and NECESSARY. But in our fairy-tale “kingdom” no one is responsible for anything... And so - the Country and Navy needed ships. This has never happened before, and here it is again. And since new ones cannot be built quickly, then all that remains is the possibility of quickly modernizing existing ones. And we already have a decent number of new 20380 corvettes, which, if desired, can be equipped with UKSK for strike weapons.
Above I described options for possible modernization. It seems to me that this is quite feasible in a relatively short time. But it will require good organization, a competent modernization project, a responsible manager for this work, as well as sufficient and timely financing. And from these strange and insufficiently balanced ships in terms of armament, they can turn out to be simply beasts... terminators of the near sea zone.
And Klimov wrote more than once about the necessary modernization to equip the Project 20380 UKSK.

[Ezekiel 25-17]

Quote: ROSS 42

The existing developments of shipborne air defense systems and Zircon missiles specifically determine the development paths for small missiles, corvettes and other types of warships.
The news (based on British intelligence materials) that, under the conditions of the Northern Military District, the Russian industry is producing 100 missiles per month does not cause delight. And then there’s Onyx. Slogan: “Less is better!” in today's situation, it's time to change it to: “More is better, but better!”
* * *
Only in connection with the appearance of underwater drones by the enemy, the dilemma of using the fleet arose... Maybe ONLY from the Caspian Sea or Lake Ladoga?

Do not panic; the use of drones has not yet brought much profit to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

[Andrey Moskvin]

It was the drones that brought great psychological profit with the undermining of the bridge.

[Eug]

Don't you consider the relocation of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk a profit? As for me - so what, especially in moral and psychological terms.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Eug

Don't you consider the relocation of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk a profit?

The relocation of the fleet is a consequence of the emergence of long-range modern anti-ship missiles in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and not drones.

[TermNachTer]

I would like to note that initially, all these “storms - scalps”, etc., were positioned by the British and French as inaccessible to modern air defense systems. And they turned out to be quite affordable.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: TermNachTER

I would like to note that initially, all these “storms - scalps”, etc., were positioned by the British and French as inaccessible to modern air defense systems

Um, can I ask for a link to an English or French source that would claim this? :)))
There was a story that they argued whether Storm Shadow was shot down during an attack on a Syrian facility (allegedly a plant producing chemical weapons). Ours said they shot down, the USA, England and France said no, ours presented slides

The General Staff showed journalists fragments of cruise missiles. “The exhibition presents elements of sea-launched cruise missiles made in the United States Tomahawk and air-launched cruise missiles made in England and France SCALP and Storm Shadow,” Sergei Beznogikh, an air defense specialist at the General Staff, told reporters.

According to him, the military presented large-sized elements of both the missiles themselves and their propulsion systems and the element base - the space radio navigation system.

“The good condition of the elements and the absence of fire points indicate a clear impact of anti-aircraft defense systems on cruise missiles. The presence of through holes from striking elements on the skin of cruise missiles clearly characterizes the fire impact of anti-aircraft guided missiles,” Beznogikh added.

But what Storm Shadow is unbreakable in principle is something I have never heard from foreigners. Well, maybe from the Ukrainians

[Nemchinov Vl]

I can’t help it, but when I read Ryabov’s opuses, I can’t help but remember a scene from a Soviet film comedy, with a lecturer about "dreams and dreams", as well as the lines of the wittiest parodist Alexander Ivanov, based on the poems of the graphomaniac Nikolai Derizo (from the program Around Laughter), with the words, - "... didn't write poetry, and don't write! Throw away your pencils!...."",
Therefore, I have another question for you, Andrey, - do you have a desire to please us (as readers), anything similar to the series you wrote earlier about the fleet, like “shipbuilding program. sad look into the future” ..?!!
Good then you have a series of articles, interesting..

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Eug

Don't you consider the relocation of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk a profit? As for me - so what, especially in moral and psychological terms.

During military operations in the Black Sea and beyond, the dispersal of the fleet was always envisaged. So, it was a bit late that the Black Sea Fleet was dispersed among different bases.

[cmax]

Quote: 30 vis

Quote: Eug

Don't you consider the relocation of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk a profit? As for me - so what, especially in moral and psychological terms.

During military operations in the Black Sea and beyond, the dispersal of the fleet was always envisaged. So, it was a bit late that the Black Sea Fleet was dispersed among different bases.

What is there to disperse! Rather, they save what is left.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: cmax

Quote: 30 vis

Quote: Eug

Don't you consider the relocation of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk a profit? As for me - so what, especially in moral and psychological terms.

During military operations in the Black Sea and beyond, the dispersal of the fleet was always envisaged. So, it was a bit late that the Black Sea Fleet was dispersed among different bases.

What is there to disperse! Rather, they save what is left.

All caliber carriers, all new ships remained. The fact that the cruiser Moscow and the large landing ship Saratov were lost. This is excessive self-confidence in the invulnerability of fleet ships. Plain stupidity. There are charters, there are protocols of actions. . And even if the enemy is frail, weak and seemingly defeated, it does not mean that you can not fulfill what is written in blood. experience of previous generations. Tea is not teenagers.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: 30 vis

The fact that the cruiser Moscow and the large landing ship Saratov were lost.

At the same time, it is not clear why the Moskva died - from enemy action, or from a poorly repaired chassis.

[French messenger]

what kind of self-confidence?
fraud and mutual responsibility.
high ranks know everything perfectly well, otherwise they wouldn’t cheat during the exercises.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: French Herald

what kind of self-confidence?
fraud and mutual responsibility.
high ranks know everything perfectly well, otherwise they wouldn’t cheat during the exercises.

Such self-confidence. Regular . And plus Russian indifference. Perhaps, yes, I suppose!

[TermNachTer]

The flight range of the “calibers” is enough “for the eyes”. You can shoot even from the Azov Sea, even from the Caspian Sea)))

[bayard]

Quote: TermNachTER

You can shoot even from the Azov Sea, even from the Caspian Sea)))

Or maybe with a ground-based launcher, so as not to bother with shipbuilding for the sake of such shooting. A ground transport hub is still cheaper than a ship and can be built faster.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Ezekiel 25-17

Do not panic; the use of drones has not yet brought much profit to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Or still - Ezekiel?
Judging by your nickname, you are not a prophet. Moreover, you are naive, probably due to:

Old Testament. Book of Ezekiel. Chapter 25. Verse 17: “The path of the righteous is difficult, for the selfish and tyrants of evil people hinder him. Blessed is the shepherd who, in the name of mercy and kindness, leads the weak through the valley of darkness. For it is he who truly cares for my neighbor and brings back the lost children, and I will take great vengeance on them with fierce punishments on those who plan to poison and harm my brothers. And you will know that my name is Lord when my vengeance falls on you".

position yourself as a set of letters and words in sentences, and not as a guide to action.
* * *
I had no idea that the RF Armed Forces were created for war with the Armed Forces... There is no NATO bloc in the world, there are no those Baltic “roosters” who scream from morning to evening that Russia has no place in the Baltic Sea.
There is absolutely no panic on my part. These are the usual conclusions from events that have already taken place. For example, no one interfered or objected to the presence of American AUGs in the Mediterranean Sea, but in the Baltic Sea there were forces that prevented the Baltic Fleet from ensuring the safety of the investigation of the explosions at the "SP" ... But how many bags of indignation poured out of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Russian The media about the fact that “they don’t allow us to conduct an investigation”...
* * *
Where were the Black Sea Fleet ships redeployed after the attack on the submarine and large landing ship? This is according to you:

Quote: Ezekiel 25-17

the use of drones has not yet brought much profit to the Armed Forces of Ukraine

What do you mean by “big profit”? The Black Sea Fleet has a new flagship that you don’t mind?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Ezekiel 25-17

Do not panic; the use of drones has not yet brought much profit to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Yes?! And you ask our guys, who are at 0, how much they lost from these “useless”, in your opinion, drones.
And the retreat of the Black Sea Fleet to Novorossiysk and even further is that (?) not a profit?

[Soldatov V.]

New anti-ship missiles are good. And here’s how it will defend itself against drones and UAVs of various designs. Why did the twin artillery mount with 20 mm (or 30 mm) caliber disappear? Is it equivalent to replacing the gun mount with below-deck launchers? Why is Pantsir M not installed? At least on the roof of the hangar, especially since there are no helicopters on them.
After all, due to the lack of protection against drones and UAVs, missiles, the fleet was withdrawn from Sevastopol.
We need real modernization for modern conditions of warfare at sea.
Such that the ships would defend Sevastopol and not hide in distant bases, or like in the Baltic in lakes, in the rear of Leningrad and Kronstadt.

[Dante Alighieri]

Why did the twin artillery mount with 20 mm (or 30 mm) caliber disappear?

In fact, the Kortik air defense missile system was only on the lead ship of the project; all subsequent production ships were equipped with 12 Redut air defense missile systems cells, however, without Poliment’s phased array panels, which is why the tasks of detecting targets had to be solved using the Puma artillery radar, because The Fourque radar, although it is a detection radar for the ground version of the Pantsir, turned out to be completely incompatible with the Redoubt missile algorithm.

Is it equivalent to replacing a gun mount with below-deck launchers?

Yes, to be objective, ZRAK Dirk didn’t particularly shine either. It turned out to be too massive, and the efforts of the servos were insufficient to quickly stop threats. Therefore, in the navy it was almost always used without missiles; this was the only way to achieve a more or less acceptable reaction speed.

Why is Pantsir M not installed? At least on the roof of the hangar,

Probably because the Shell is also quite massive, which will require additional measures to strengthen the roof of the helicopter hangar. + Let’s not forget that for the Shell to work correctly, it also requires the presence of phased array panels, and this automatically leads to the need to make changes to the design of the mast, similar to the same Barrier.

so that the ships defend Sevastopol and not hide in distant bases, or as in the Baltic in lakes, in the rear of Leningrad and Kronstadt

All issues of protecting designated settlements can be easily resolved if there is an adequate amount of aviation; the fleet here is of secondary importance

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Dante

Let's not forget that for the Shell to work correctly, it also requires the presence of phased array panels, and this automatically leads to the need to make changes to the design of the mast, similar to the same Barrier.

Nyanado. "Pantsir-M" carries everything with it. Simply put, it is not enough for the Redoubt to detect a target; it is necessary for some kind of radar to monitor the position of this target and the position of the launched missile, and from here an amendment is given for the missile until the AGSN or IGSN works. That is, "Redoubt" needs an FCS radar, and "Pantsir" just needs to tell the surveillance radar that there is a flying bastard over there, he himself will take it for escort and work it out with his FCS radar

[Foxnova]

Only the shell is a monster that is not yet working.

The delay in the transmission of 22800 for the Black Sea Fleet is due to the fact that they cannot get anywhere

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: FoxNova

Only the shell is a monster that is not yet working.

Is it?

Quote: FoxNova

The delay in the transmission of 22800 for the Black Sea Fleet is due to the fact that they cannot get anywhere

And "Odintsovo" has been sailing in the Baltic since 2020 with "Pantsir-M". “Cyclone” was accepted at the World Cup in July 2023. Maybe it's not the Shell?

[Dante Alighieri]

That is, "Redoubt" needs an FCS radar, and "Pantsir" just needs to tell the surveillance radar that there is a flying bastard over there, he himself will take it for escort and work it out with his FCS radar

Andrey, you have simplified everything too much, and so much so that, based on your own words, it turns out that there are essentially no differences between missiles with radio-command guidance and homing, and this is far from the case.

As for the Shell, he only carries with him a target illumination radar and a sighting column with optics, everything else he should have received from the Fourke detection radar, but Fourke was not delivered to 22800, instead there is a Positive, which apparently is not friends with the Shell. Therefore, in order to still assign the Shell to the ship, the designers had to divide Fourke into 4 static phased arrays, integrating them into the match by reducing the size of the Monument’s canvases. For comparison, here is a photo of the head Hurricane (now Mytishchi) and Odintsovo.

In essence, it seems to me, we are faced with the same problem as in the Soviet Navy: the ship's BIUS, apparently, is simply not capable of uniting heterogeneous systems, teaching them to exchange data with each other and understand each other, hence all crutches. In other words: there is no open architecture, each system works on its own and only with what the developers taught it to work with.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Dante

based on your words, it turns out that there are essentially no differences between missiles with radio command guidance and homing

My words do not in any way relate to the methods of targeting missiles. All I'm saying is that

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

"Redoubt" needs an FCS radar, and "Pantsir" just needs to tell the surveillance radar that there is a flying bastard over there, he will take it for escort and work it out with his FCS radar

What does the guidance method have to do with it?

Quote: Dante

As for the Shell, he only carries with him a target illumination radar and a sighting column with optics, everything else he should have received from the Fourke detection radar, but Fourke was not delivered to 22800, instead of him there is a Positive, which apparently is not friends with the Shell. Therefore, in order to still assign the Shell to the ship, the designers had to divide Fourke into 4 static phased arrays

And I disagree :)
At 22800 there were initially 2 systems - Positive-M and Negati... uh... I mean Monument :). Positivity seems to be good for everyone, but it is centimeter-scale, which gives certain disadvantages. As you know, the best combination of surveillance radars is decimeter and centimeter.
At the same time, "Pantsir-M" grew out of the land-based "Pantsir-S", which has two radars - one of them is a decimeter (1RS1-1E) general-view radar, the second is a centimeter SLA radar. So, at 22800 with Pantsir-M, the phased array arrays on the mast are not “Furke” at all, but decimeter general-view phased arrays from the Pantsir-M.
And here the question arises - why? It can be assumed that the BIUS cannot aggregate Positive and Shell, yes. But as for me, in this way “cheap and cheerful” (relatively, of course) they solved the issue of two-band surveillance of space, since now 22800 has both centimeter and decimeter surveillance radars. However, there is evidence that RTOs from the 3rd ship are not equipped with Positive at all.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: V.

Why did the twin artillery mount with 20 mm (or 30 mm) caliber disappear?

Because the backlog is over. "Dirks" were made from the existing stock, and the last ones went to the Indians at the "Talwars".
The "Palma/Broadswords" that replaced the "Daggers", according to some sources, have certain problems with the use of missiles, therefore they are used as ZAK.

Quote: V.

Why is Pantsir M not installed? At least on the roof of the hangar, especially since there are no helicopters on them.

And there should be. Because corvettes will plug the gaping hole in the nearby anti-aircraft defense system, formed after the complete obsolescence and wear and tear of the 35-40-year-old Soviet-built MPKs.

[alexmach]

And there should be. Because corvettes will plug the gaping hole in the nearby anti-aircraft defense system, formed after the complete obsolescence and wear and tear of the 35-40-year-old Soviet-built MPKs.

Then the main thing they need is not Onyxes with Kallibr, but that same “Answer” missile-torpedo from the Kallibr family.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: alexmach

Then the main thing they need is not Onyxes with Kallibr, but that same “Answer” missile-torpedo from the Kallibr family.

Which in the same way will require installation of the UVP 3S14 “caliber” family on the corvette.
If they put “Caliber” on the corvette, then PLURs of the same system will be installed on it.

[Dante Alighieri]

And for many years I have been talking about the need to create an inclined launcher for the Onyx/Caliber family, which could be placed not only inside the hull, but also simply on the deck of the ship. More precisely, the launcher itself exists (Nakat and the Project 949 submarines won’t let you lie), there’s just no order for it.

[AdAstra]

It will be sad if they are modernized at the same speed as they are built....

[alexmach]

How else? They will be modernized during mid-term repairs as they wear out.

[storm]

The main problem of the Project 20380 corvettes is not at all with the Uran complex, but with the DDA 12000 diesel engines designed by Kolomensky Machine-Building Plant OJSC, which are simply not available for already built corvettes!

Ukraine quite effectively uses the Neptune missile system, an analogue of our Uranus.

IF URANIUM is outdated, why is it being “molded” onto the BOD1155 during modernization in order to pump more money out of the budget?

The main problem lies in the minds of the Admirals, who simply do not understand the modern concept of using the Navy, so give them Calibers and Onyxes for every boat....

[bayard]

Quote: assault

IF URANIUM is outdated, why is it being “molded” onto the BOD1155 during modernization in order to pump more money out of the budget?

A corvette is an anti-aircraft defense ship, but the range of its light Paket-NK torpedoes is 20 km. And enemy submarines are armed with torpedoes with a launch range of 50 km+. In a duel situation, the corvette will simply lose, and the enemy submarine will evade contact. We need a long arm of PLO, which in this case can only be PLUR “Answer”. And it requires UKSK on board. It is for its placement that the modernization is planned. Because the corvette cannot effectively perform its main task. And many corvettes of this (20380) project have already been built. Klimov spoke a lot about the need for such modernization in his time, but who listened to him then? Maybe they heard it just now.
And as an anti-ship missile system, the Uran is quite sufficient in the BMZ and no one disputes this.
These corvettes have a very good main gun, but it needs a long arm to hit enemy submarines.

[storm]

the range of its light Paket-NK torpedoes is 20 km. And enemy submarines are armed with torpedoes with a launch range of 50 km+. In a duel situation, the corvette will simply lose, and the enemy submarine will avoid contact.

Firstly, anti-submarine torpedoes 50 km or more from the corvette can and should be carried by a regular anti-submarine helicopter.
Secondly, a homing anti-submarine torpedo can be delivered to a given area where an enemy submarine has been detected by the URAN anti-ship missile system; all you need is a task to develop this modification of the missile and the Uran will become the same universal complex for striking ships, submarines and on land, just like the Caliber .

[Boa kaa]

Quote: assault

The main problem lies in the minds of the Admirals, who simply do not understand the modern concept of using the Navy, so give them Calibers and Onyxes for every boat....

This is a requirement of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces: CRBD for ships to the detriment of all other naval weapons. GENERALS, not admirals, need “fleet assistance in the coastal direction” and missile strikes on priority (significant for the ground forces!) BCs, and not naval battles and protection from enemy submarines and airborne attack forces. And the root of the problem lies in the Treaty on the Limitation of Intermediate-Range Missiles. They can be placed either on aircraft or on offshore platforms.
Well, what do “admirals” have to do with it???

[Galleon]

Some kind of twilight tunnel thinking from a century ago. Again about air defense, about target designation, about the standard ship’s helicopter, neither meow nor woof. Larger caliber, keep shooting! Well, yes, so that the fleet, now moved from Novorossiysk, could valiantly fire back from somewhere in Saratov. It seems like war should teach naval commanders - no, strong-minded people, it doesn’t. It would seem that we need to knock on all doors: at least give everyone Pantsir-M, give reconnaissance and electronic warfare equipment to ships. Give them, thermal imagers! I would erect a monument to the commander of the fleet who will have regular helicopters on ships and write this down in the charter during his lifetime.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Galleon

It seems like war should teach naval commanders - no, strong-minded people, it doesn’t.

Quote: Galleon

It would seem that we need to knock on all doors: at least give everyone Pantsir-M, give reconnaissance and electronic warfare equipment to ships.

Quote: Galleon

I would erect a monument to the commander of the fleet who will have regular helicopters on ships and write this down in the charter during his lifetime.

How will they put it...If only this:

* * *
In fact, a warship is a small military unit (a separate unit), or even a part. And the ship commander must have the entire range of weapons and protection at his disposal to successfully complete the assigned tasks.
A ship cannot be a consumable item like an armored personnel carrier... This is not the purpose of the fleet.
This is how I see it...

[TermNachTer]

Modernization of ships, taking into account combat experience and the emergence of new equipment, is a normal and absolutely correct thing. I don't understand the discussion on this issue.

[Soldatov V.]

I decided to give one more comment about 20380. The ship was made according to the mentality of the year 2000. The whole strategy and tactics were different. Both the politics and the economy were different, the robbery of the country and the people. And according to these concepts they made 20830. Now the situation is completely different. The project needs to be completely reworked. Can only leave the hull and displacement. 104 meters is the possibility of transporting ships along inland waterways and construction at any shipyard. Leave the conservative gun. Leave the landing pad for the helicopter. But remove the aircraft hangar. What should I put in this place? "Pantsir" or "Tor" or "S-350". Or both. And find a place for the “Dirk” to destroy all small things. It can be left above the under-deck missile launchers; when firing missiles, the Dirk moves forward or backward, releasing the missile covers. There are also mini installations, they are on this site, so you can install 3-4 of them, and not just on boats.
In general, there is nothing abstruse here, pure combinatorics. Everything exists and everything is produced.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: V.

Leave the conservative gun. Leave the landing pad for the helicopter. But remove the aircraft hangar.

The Navy won't give it. And he will be right. Because 20380 and 20385 are now the only serial near-field anti-aircraft defense systems. The Albatross have been getting truancy for about 10 years now, and the special corvette OVR, which was supposed to replace them, was solemnly killed by Chirkov in the name of building patrol officers 22160. It got to the point where we had nothing to ensure the exit of the SSBNs.

Quote: V.

What should I put in this place? "Pantsir" or "Tor" or "S-350". Or both. And find a place for the “Dirk” to destroy all small things.

If there is a "Thor", then a ZRAK is not needed, a pair of ZAKs is enough to finish shooting someone who has not been shot down by a "Thor". By the way, in this configuration the ship will be able to simultaneously work on targets in the near zone and in the immediate vicinity - and not wait until the guns finish shooting the broken anti-ship missile and only then fire missiles at a new target.
But here's the problem - we don't have a seaborne "Thor". The admirals didn't need him.
And "Kortik" is no longer produced.

Quote: V.

It can be left above the under-deck missile launchers; when firing missiles, the Dirk moves forward or backward, releasing the missile covers.

Yeah, yeah... The 15-ton complex + support structures move along with the below-deck missile defense storage and loading mechanisms.

[bayard]

Quote: Alexey RA

But here's the problem - we don't have a seaborne "Thor". The admirals didn't need him.
And "Kortik" is no longer produced.

But there is Pantsir-M, which should be installed on ships of this class. The range of its missiles is greater than that of the "Thor" and even the light missiles of the "Reduta", BC - 32 missiles + 8 more on the launchers of the combat module. And the vacated space of the Reduta UVP should be replaced with a UKS for the Answer PLUR, the Onyx anti-ship missile and/or the Kalibr CRBD. If you try, you can cram the UKSK into 12 cells, not 8 cells. But then the Pantsir-M itself will have to be installed in place of the main battery guns, there is nowhere else.
Or, in place of the helicopter hangar, install two UKSK (across the axis of the ship, like the Karakurt). There will also be room for a sliding/folding hangar for a helicopter. If we do this, then the air defense missile system will remain the same, and we will place as many as TWO UKSKs, and ... the “Uraniums” will remain on the waist. The beast can be obtained for PLO at the BMZ, but the helicopter cannot be permanently based there. Yes, this is not necessary - it is not permanently based there anyway, the ships sail with empty hangars, and it is difficult to use them in rough seas - the corvette’s VI is small. So the helicopter will be able to fly in and be temporarily based, but not to be based. But in two UKSK there is enough space for both PLUR and strike missiles of any class... And even “Uran” will remain for backup.
But I'm afraid that they will try to push the UKSK onto the waist, disturbing all the internal premises and it will turn out... the worst of the options for such modernization.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: bayard

But there is Pantsir-M, which should be installed on ships of this class.

Well, you remember the main problem of the ZRAK if it is installed as a single air defense system of a small ship - either a missile defense system or artillery? While he is finishing off one broken-through anti-ship missile in the immediate vicinity, other anti-ship missiles are calmly moving towards the ship in the near zone.
It’s better to install the classic Soviet combination of the MD and ZAK air defense systems - the Pantsir missile system and a pair of blowtorches.

Quote: bayard

So the helicopter will be able to fly in and be temporarily based, but not to be based.

Arrive, equip, refuel and undergo pre-flight and post-flight maintenance. So some kind of hangar will be needed.

[bayard]

Quote: Alexey RA

Well, you remember the main problem of the ZRAK if it is installed as a single air defense system of a small ship - either a missile defense system or artillery? While he is finishing off one broken-through anti-ship missile in the immediate vicinity, other anti-ship missiles are calmly moving towards the ship in the near zone.
It’s better to install the classic Soviet combination of the MD and ZAK air defense systems - the Pantsir missile system and a pair of blowtorches.

Do not forget that, having replaced the main battery gun of the Pantsir cannon, it is also responsible for artillery work against surface targets. In this case, nothing prevents you from leaving two AK-630 metal cutting machines on the sides.
Regarding the naval "Thor" ... firstly, there is no naval version of it, secondly, its missile defense system is seriously more expensive, in the third BU there will be fewer such missile defense systems, and, most importantly, the destruction range of the "Thor" is about 12 - 15 km. , and the naval "Pantsir" has three types of missiles with a maximum range: 10 km ("Nails"), 20 km (missiles of the land "Pantsir") and 40 km. (a new missile defense system created for the Pantsir-M and the ground-based Pantsir-SM). As if looking at the totality of its advantages, Pantsir-M generally looks like there is no alternative.
In addition, do not forget that the Pantsir-M radar system in the form of a “pyramid” of 4 phased array panels can and must stand above the wheelhouse and not only engage in detection, but also direct missiles at targets from any angle. The combat module itself launches missiles and completes firing of hit targets in the front hemisphere in a sector of up to 270 degrees. The remaining targets will be fired by side-mounted AK-630s with good coverage of the affected areas of the main combat vehicle's gun mounts.

Quote: Alexey RA

Arrive, equip, refuel and undergo pre-flight and post-flight maintenance. So some kind of hangar will be needed.

This is another version of modernization. In this case, the air defense missile system and radar missile system remain the same, and up to two UKKS stand in place of the helicopter hangar. The most convenient upgrade option. In this case, the hangar can be made movable. This is not a fountain for permanent basing (tested on the Sarychi), but it will work well as support for temporary basing. Don’t forget that a helicopter won’t be able to launch this boat on a more or less decent wave, so the bird’s permanent basing is in question anyway. Moreover, they (the ships) already sail without helicopters for the reasons described above... But the opportunity to take a helicopter, refuel and even spend the night is quite possible.
By the way, here is a place for you to modernize and install the UKSK or the same "Pantsyr-M" on the ever-memorable monster, pr. 22160 - on the site of a helicopter hangar. And if you refuse to base the helicopter altogether, then there will be enough space at the UKSK (in place of the hangar), and for Pantsir-M, and for BUGAS + submersible GAS, and even “Packet-NK”. You will have to tinker, the speed will drop even more, but it will be brutally armed and will become quite a PLO corvette.
Here are the considerations.

[alexmach]

But I'm afraid that they will try to push the UKSK onto the waist, disturbing all the internal premises and it will turn out... the worst of the options for such modernization.

I don’t agree with your theses in the comments above on any point.
There should be a medium-range missile with an AGSN on ships of this size, and no Pantsir can replace it. It’s trivial for the ability to hit targets from different angles, and even with the range of modern ASPs, the ability to fully deliver a strike at 40-60 km will not hurt. This MRK can be launched into the sea with one short-range self-defense air defense system.

As for where in an existing ship the UKSK can, in principle, be shoved in, I generally have huge doubts. It seems to me that most likely the missiles will be placed in the place of the same Uranus on inclined guides. From my deletant point of view, there are simply no other options visible.

The idea of ​​combining a movable hangar with UKSK seems very strange to me.
Firstly, it is not at all a fact that there is free space under the hangar to accommodate UKSK. Secondly, I doubt that there will be enough space even for a movable hangar.

Well, I’m also ready to argue about the need for more UKSK. These ships have at least a few cells in addition to what they already have and it wouldn’t be too bad, 8 cells is, in my opinion, just great. 2 UKSK is already the level of a full-fledged frigate and not a corvette. Well, and most importantly, there is no way to install them on existing ships.

[bayard]

Quote: alexmach

I don’t agree with your theses in the comments above on any point.

And good day to you.

Quote: alexmach

There should be a medium-range missile with an AGSN on ships of this size, and no Pantsir can replace it. Trivial for the ability to hit targets from different angles

This will only be a problem for Pantsir-M if its entire radar system is on the module itself. But you forgot that these ships already have a turret with 4 “Furke” AFAR panels, which are precisely elements of the “Pantsir” radar system. So even when shooting at the rear half-sphere, its missiles will not be left without control; they will only have to be turned slightly. In addition, the Pantsir BM itself, in place of the main battery gun, has a firing sector (even with artillery) of 270 degrees. So the problem of all-aspect control for such a placement of the "Pantsyr" is solved without any special problems. And to finish shooting the missile in the near zone, the corvette also has two metal cutting machines on the sides. But the ammunition capacity of such an air defense system becomes many times larger (up to 40 missiles versus 12 pieces for the Redut), and this is worth a lot. And this does not take into account the “Nails” (missile range up to 10 km), of which there are 4 pieces in one launch container .

Quote: alexmach

and even with the range of modern ASPs, the ability to fully strike at 40-60 km will not hurt.

In fact, Pantsir-M is capable of hitting large non-maneuverable targets at a range of up to 40 km. , and maneuvering (fighter) at a range of 32 km. BMZ is quite enough for a corvette.
But ! This, of course, does not apply to those ships that have already received the Zaslon radar system (of course, if it is already working as it should). In this case, there is no need to mess around with anything; for such corvettes, the option of one or two (this will require discussion and consideration of the space under the hangar) UKSK is the most acceptable, simple, inexpensive and easy to implement.

Quote: alexmach

It seems to me that most likely the missiles will be placed in the place of the same Uranus on inclined guides.

We do not have inclined launchers for “Caliber” and “Onyx”, although such options were initially considered (during the design of “Onyx” for sure), but they were abandoned. In addition, what kind of missile launchers do you want to place in inclined launchers? PLUR ? But then the ship will be left without anti-ship missiles. "Caliber" in the KRBD version? Why does a corvette need this? The corvette needs to be able to deploy anti-missile missiles without losing the anti-ship missiles for self-defense. That’s why I’m writing that the simplest solution is UKSK in place of the hangar. The space already exists, it “walks” idle (because these ships almost never carry a helicopter with them). In addition, there is still room for a movable hangar. In order for a helicopter to spend the night, it will be enough to refuel and for the pilots to warm up. But for the permanent deployment of a helicopter, ships of such VI and seaworthiness are still not suitable. That's why they don't exist on board. Even on the long trips they had already made, the hangars were empty.

Quote: alexmach

The idea of ​​combining a movable hangar with UKSK seems very strange to me.

Not at all - all the Sarychs had such a hangar. But the helicopter was not based on buzzards, but only had the opportunity to land, refuel, and, if really necessary, spend the night in a movable hangar. The decision was recognized as “not very good,” but the Chinese, in the course of modernizing their four Buzzards, nevertheless installed permanent hangars on them. But these are destroyers! And we have a BMZ corvette. Apart from us, not a single corvette in the world has a helicopter hangar, at best a helipad. And do not forget that we need these corvettes to provide anti-aircraft defense, take our submarines out to sea from bases and provide their combat protection during the exit. So the main thing for them is the presence of PLUR, with the already having a very good GAK.

Quote: alexmach

Secondly, I doubt that there will be enough space even for a movable hangar.

Look at the size of the hangar. And then look at the placement of the UKSK at the Karakurt (across the axis of the ship, which makes its placement very compact) and then you will understand that I did not take the possibility of placing even two UKSs there out of the blue. But to support all combat missions, one UKSK is enough. And even more so for space for a sliding/folding hangar. Moreover, it will not be necessary to move it apart so often.
On the other hand, in conditions when our entire shipbuilding program is in love, and the task of placing new types of strike weapons on Navy ships is... why not install two UKSKs at once? If the technical possibility allows this? After all, our corvettes not only perform anti-submarine functions, they will also have to deal with enemy ships. At the same Pacific Fleet, where new frigates will not reach soon. And the water areas there are wow, so vast. In addition, when considering the project of a promising light corvette PLO based on "Karakurt" (Super-Karakurt) in the VI 1200 - 1500 tons, I have already shown that two UKSK, "Pantsir-M", "Packet-NK" can be accommodated there without any problems , gun turret on the tank, BUGAS and submersible on the GAS foot. And at the same time, it is even possible to have a helipad to receive a helicopter (without a permanent base). And we are talking about the modernization of the “large corvette,” which in the West is classified only as a “light frigate.” So don't be surprised by the possibilities of such modernization. Moreover, I offhand suggested two good and one bad options for such modernization. And it seems to me that giving up the permanent deployment of a helicopter (it doesn’t exist anyway) in exchange for two UKSKs in the place of its hangar is a more than useful exchange. This will allow the corvette to perform anti-aircraft defense functions with the highest efficiency and at the same time have the ability to strike both enemy ships and ground targets deep in its territory.

Quote: alexmach

2 UKSK is already the level of a full-fledged frigate and not a corvette. Well, and most importantly, there is no way to install them on existing ships.

There is a supply of weapons on board the ship, the pocket does not fit. We need to take a closer look at the design of this corvette in terms of its spaces under the hangar. There, as a rule, the fuel supply and arsenal for the helicopter are located. If the "Karakurt" VI of 800 tons is equipped with a UKSK, and the "Super-Karakurt" has two of them, then I don’t see any problems with placing two UKSKs in place of the hangar. And the modernization (as indicated in the article) is going to be carried out during the middle repair. And even repair factories can cope with such a task. Let's say the Vladivostok Shipyard, maybe it's Yantar.
And in general, this is just mental gymnastics. I do not rule out that in the current realities, Klimov’s opinion was also heard; he has been talking about this for many years.

[alexmach]

Hello.

This will only be a problem for Pantsir-M if its entire radar system is on the module itself. But you forgot that these ships already have a turret with 4 panels
AFAR "Furke", which are precisely elements of the "Pantsir" radar system.

I look at a photograph of the Pantsir on the Odintsovo MRK, for example, and see on it a full set of antennas, including a large canvas similar in size to these same Fourquets on the mast.

, they will only have to be tightened slightly

Then it can be placed in a vertical launcher with a mortar launch... only now it turns out to be some kind of Tor or again a Redoubt.

We need to take a closer look at the design of this corvette in terms of its spaces under the hangar

Actually, this is where my doubts come from. Is there space under the hangar at UKSK? I suspect that with a very tight lineup there won’t be a ship.

This is where the fuel supply and arsenal for the helicopter are usually located.

And this reserve, firstly, as far as I know, is not at all large, and secondly, it is needed in any case, since we are planning to leave the helipad.

[bayard]

Quote: alexmach

Then it can be placed in a vertical launcher with a mortar launch... only now it turns out to be some kind of Tor or again a Redoubt.

This is hardly advisable, because the value of the Pantsir is also in the low cost of its radio-command-guided missiles. We have a ready-made shipborne air defense system with a good range and number of missiles in the BC, why complicate it and make it more expensive? In addition, the simplest modernization option is not to replace the air defense system, but to install one or two UKSKs on the site of the helicopter hangar. It makes sense to change the air defense system only on those corvettes that have the Furke radar system and if the presence of a hangar is recognized as an indispensable condition. In general, it’s easier and faster to replace “Furke” with “Zaslon” in order to be able to fire all types of “Reduta” missiles. "Pantsir-M" should be installed on the promising light corvette PLO "Super-Karakurt". About installing it on 20380, this is most likely for the sake of mental gymnastics, or if we continue to build this type in a modernized and more budget version.

Quote: alexmach

Is there space under the hangar at UKSK? I suspect that with a very tight lineup there won’t be a ship.

It is much easier to find and free space there than in the central part of the ship, where you will have to sacrifice all the below-deck space. And this is... a radical redevelopment and refurbishment of the finished ship.
Under the hangar there is usually a tank with aviation fuel, an arsenal for a helicopter, and other technical premises. And the UKSK will only need to be immersed about halfway under the deck cut. There, even the outline of the hangar may be preserved as structural protection. In addition, we will place the UKSK across the axis of the ship, so it will take up little space (look at how it is on the Karakurt). And even if you put two UKSKs there, then spatially it will take up about half the hangar area, when viewed from above. If you want to make sure, look how much these two UKSK occupy on the tank of Project 22350 and apply it to the contour of the helicopter hangar. So, if necessary, two UKSK will become. And there will still be room for a folding/movable hangar.
It is precisely this arrangement of the modernized 20380 that seems to me the most promising, easy to implement and providing maximum striking power. There is no need to be afraid of an excess of weapons, nor of the fact that these corvettes will be on par with frigates in terms of striking power - they are already called “light frigates” in NATO. So let's confirm this nickname with increased striking power. Such modernization is best combined with scheduled repairs and carried out by repair plants in Vladivostok and St. Petersburg. During this repair, it is advisable to change the “Furke” to the “Zaslon”, if the “Zaslon” has already confirmed the declared characteristics and capabilities.
In the future, it is necessary to lay down a fairly large series of light PLO corvettes with a power plant consisting of two D-500 diesel engines (2 x 10 l/s), with two UKSK, "Pantsir-M", "Package-NK", BUGAS and a submersible GAS. And a 000 mm gun. The estimated price is about 76 - 11 billion rubles. The Navy's need for such ships is about 12 units. And BMZ will be under complete control.

[Vladgar]

Well, why can’t they be installed on existing ships? It is quite possible.
In front of the superstructure, instead of an air defense missile system with 12 cells, a UKSK with 8 cells is installed. And behind the tower, instead of the Urans, an air defense system is installed, the Redoubt... The Urans are removed. Of these, 8 medium-range missiles are 40 km and 16 short-range missiles are 16 km. A total of 24 missiles.
In the UKSK there are PLURs in 4 cells and in another 4 there is an Onyx missile. It works both on ships and on the shore. Warhead 300 kg. range 600 km. These missiles are quite enough for a corvette. There is no need to hang anything else on it. UKSK will not stand under the hangar. There's an engine room there. And an anti-submarine officer always needs a helicopter. “Pantsir” does not need to be installed on a corvette under any circumstances. It has a large dead zone. A “Redoubt” and two “Duets” are quite enough for the ship’s air defense.

[alexmach]

And behind the tower, instead of the Urans, an air defense system is installed, the Redoubt... The Urans are removed.

Is there a place to put it there? Well, it’s a pity for “Urany” if anything.
Is it possible to simply replace 4 redoubt cells with 4 UKSK? Of course, the set of air defense missiles will be reduced.

[Dante Alighieri]

Especially for you, Alexander, as well as for Vitaly, made a picture that clearly shows that placing even 8 additional ZS-14 cells on the site of the hangar will encounter no less design alterations than the option proposed by Vladimir (Vladgar), which I personally consider as the most realistic for today.

True, it seems to me that the diagram shows not exactly 20380, but rather 20385, but the location of the main premises there, with the exception of 2 TPK Redoubt air defense missile systems of 8 cells each (located on the sides immediately behind the hangar in front of the helicopter deck) is basically the same.

For comparison, here is a layout diagram of the classic 20380, which was already published on VO

So, what do we see in the proposed images? What we see is that corvette 20380 initially had space reserved for the installation of ZS-14 cells in the bow of the ship. That is why, starting with the 2nd Corps, it was so easy to install Redoubt cells there. At the same time, placing the TPK ZS-14 somewhere else, for example on the site of a hangar, which (here I completely agree with Vitaly) is completely unnecessary for a ship with such a displacement, will inevitably encounter a number of difficulties. Which ones exactly?

First of all, these are the sizes. Cell ZS-14 has a length of almost 10 meters (9580 mm to be more precise). At the same time, the height of the main helicopter of our Navy, the Ka-27, is only 5,4 m. Thus, if we fit the dimensions of the additional cells into the existing dimensions of the hull, and install the TPK in place of the hangar (even if not along, but across the hull), we will all We will also be forced to go down into the below-deck space, which in this place is not only represented by technical corridors. So, for example, we will not be able to place the cells in the immediate vicinity of the main matches, because in this place below deck there is a stern power plant. Moving it somewhere else means facing the inevitable alteration of half of the ship’s entire power supply. I don’t think there’s any need to explain why, that it’s extremely expensive, tedious and hardly practical.

However, even if we place the cells a little to the side (red rectangle in the first picture), it turns out that with the base of the TPK we will go straight into the personnel quarters. It’s not me, of course, who understands that in our country it is customary to proudly endure all the hardships and deprivations of military service and even make a farce of it, but personally I am inclined to believe that the comfort of the crew’s stay inevitably affects combat training, and therefore to neglect the living conditions of personal I wouldn’t recommend any composition. True, it is extremely easy to find a way out of this situation (fortunately there is no “complex” equipment here): it is enough to move these premises closer to the stern, highlighting an area in the middle of the former hangar for Caliber/Onyx cells. True, then we will climb into the aviation ammunition cellar, the avgas tank and one of the fresh water tanks. In principle, this is not as scary as it seems at first glance. A tank with aviation kerosene for such a ship, which is frankly not the largest, is simply huge, and replacing it with something smaller is a completely reasonable solution that has been asking for a long time. This becomes especially relevant if we only have half of the hangar left, at best, and the rest will have to be compensated for by sliding structures. The same applies to the cellar with weapons. As for the water tank, it is not the last one on the ship, and besides, it is unlikely that he will have to abandon it completely; it will be enough to simply reduce its size based on the new proportions.

Let's summarize. In principle, this option for placing additional ZS-14 cells is possible. Moreover, you can place at least 12 cells across the hull, at least 16 cells along the width of the hangar (which, taking into account the width of the same Ka-27 at 3,8 m, is somewhere around a full 5-6 meters without taking into account the walls) allows. However, another factor intervenes here, which everyone forgets - weight.

The mass of only one TPK ZS-14 for 8 cells without a rocket will be 17000 kg (which already exceeds the maximum mass of the Ka-27), two - 34000 kg. The weight of one Caliber rocket varies from 1200 to 2100 kg depending on the modification; the weight of Onyx is 3000 kg without the launch tube. In total, it turns out that the weight of fully equipped 8 ZS-14 cells will be on the order of 33,8 (if you take only Caliber system missiles) to 41 tons (if you equip the ship only with Onyxes), if you are talking about 16 cells, then this figure will already be 67,6, 82 and 2 tons, respectively. It is difficult to say at random how this weight will affect the weight distribution of the two-and-a-half thousand-ton ship. Will we end up with an overly heavy feed, but at the same time a half-empty nose?

[Dante Alighieri]

Now the situation is completely different

Well, yes, well, now no one sells the country’s subsoil to Europeans and American fascists, does not keep money in foreign securities, does not import migrants, does not impose loans on the population and does not cover costs from the budget. Bugagaga

[Boa kaa]

Quote: V.

And according to these concepts they made 20830.

In fact, ships are built according to specifications, which are issued by naval commanders. And there is no need to turn the corvette into a cruiser! But, because the latter are not there, then you have to be exiled. That’s why we probably don’t have PLO BMZ. The General Staff, based on the highest interests, builds a “missile fence” from everything that comes to hand... And to the sailors with their “sea problems”... deep purple! The main thing is to calculate the “missile potential” on the theater of operations.
And the sailors - they will carry out the tasks assigned to them... with the available forces.

[Pavel57]

When a ship has 8 cells, you don’t know what to equip them with - Calibers or Yakhonts.

[Tests]

bayard, dear, while the country is ruled by a party with the emblem: “Blue, after hair removal, brown bear,” whose slogan is: “We don’t imprison our own!” The Navy, it seems, will demolish the Uraniums and in their place will sculpt the UKSK. Moreover, the modernization will be entrusted to Severnaya Verf. Where Mr. Orlov, a truant at the FSIN institution, has been in charge for many years, it seems. Here is the former chief engineer of S.V., Mr. Shestakov, who did not admit in court his guilt in abuse of official powers in the position of deputy. The Chairman of the Government of the Arkhangelsk Region in 2019, who caused damage to the Arkhangelsk region in the amount of 4,7 million rubles, is walking in Arkhangelsk. He was sentenced to 2 years 6 months of imprisonment, which, in accordance with Part 2 of Article 53.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation, was replaced by the Arkhangelsk Regional Court with forced labor for a period of 2 years 6 months with 10% deduction from wages to state income in July 2023 . An additional penalty was also imposed in the form of deprivation of the right to hold government positions in a constituent entity of the Russian Federation and positions in the civil service related to the exercise of organizational and administrative powers for a period of 2 years.
And you, Alexei Lvovich, so...He received the Order of Alexander Nevsky for his leadership of USC...And Mr. Manturov is alive and without an escort...

[bayard]

Quote: Tests

while the country is ruled by a party with the emblem: “Blue, after hair removal, brown bear,” whose slogan is: “We don’t imprison our own!”

That’s why the Soviet Union was killed, and that’s why feudalism was “like under Nikola-2.”

Quote: Tests

The Navy, it seems, will demolish the Uraniums and in their place will sculpt the UKSK. Moreover, the modernization will be entrusted to Severnaya Verf. Where Mr. Orlov, a truant at the FSIN institution, has been in charge for many years, it seems.

So I also assumed that of all the possible modernization options, they would choose the worst, most expensive and indigestible. And this is what pushing the waist of one UKSK into the below-deck space.
Although the simplest and most convenient option is to install one or even two UKSKs on the site of a helicopter hangar.
Such is our fabulous power. And on this I completely agree with you.

[Cympak]

As the main strike armament, the corvettes carry the Uran anti-ship missile system with the X-35U / 3M24 missile.

The Navy has still not re-equipped the Project 20380 corvettes with the X-35U and is using the old X-35s.

[Pavel57]

Calibers are everything to us. And who will shoot at ships and boats?

[While I'm sick]

Who turned the 3M54 anti-ship missile into a missile for attacking ground targets - Kirill’s magic?

[While I'm sick]

complex "Caliber". Its 3M54 cruise missiles at high subsonic flight speeds have a range of approx. 2,5 thousand km and carry warheads weighing 400 kg. Astanavis.!!

[storm]

However, with all its advantages, the shipborne Kh-35U is inferior in basic characteristics to other modern types of missile weapons. This negatively affects the overall capabilities of Project 20380 corvettes in comparison with ships of newer projects.

The Ukrainian Armed Forces are not stopping us from using an analogue of our X-35 against Russian ships and ground targets in Crimea, and they are very pleased with the results.
Maybe it’s not a matter of Uranium, but the tactics of using the Russian Navy......

To launch Calibers and Onyxes, it is not necessary to build ships; Bastion coastal missile systems can successfully fire at enemy ships and targets on the shore...

[Glagol1]

As for 20386, did this shorten me? Pinch me, please. Author, aren’t you the one who deals with the ruble exchange rate?!

[Sidor Sidorov_2]

Nevertheless, today the corvette Strogiy has been completed according to a modernized design with UKSK and 16 cells of the Redut air defense system. It should be tested by May 2024. There is still silence about the weapons installation scheme,

[Sidor Sidorov_2]

It is hardly possible to install UKSK instead of Uranus. There are propulsion systems below, and the height of UKSK is 9580 without a foundation. But the Redoubt will rise.