"Karakurt" on Lake Ladoga

63
"Karakurt" on Lake Ladoga
MRK "Sovetsk" project 22800 "Karakurt"


Area of ​​responsibility of the Twice Red Banner Baltic fleet The Russian Navy covers the Baltic and North Seas, as well as the surrounding areas of the Atlantic Ocean. In addition, ships and coastal formations of the DKBF can operate in other waters and navigation theaters, and such issues are studied on a regular basis. Thus, recently several small missile ships conducted experimental combat duty on Lake Ladoga, which has its own advantages and important features.



Experimental combat duty


On October 13, the newspaper of the Ministry of Defense “Red Star” published the material “On Gray Ladoga”. For the first time, it openly reported on the experimental combat deployment of ships of the Baltic Fleet on Lake Ladoga. The commander of one of the ships involved told the details of these events and his personal impressions.

Two small missile ships of project 22800 "Karakurt" from the DKBF - "Sovetsk" and "Odintsovo" - were assigned to duty on Ladoga. The ships made the transition from their permanent base through the Gulf of Finland and the Neva. During experimental combat duty, their temporary base was one of the Ladoga ports, which was used by the fleet until 2004. The duty lasted for a month.

The commander of the Sovetsk, in an interview for Krasnaya Zvezda, noted that for the first time the passage along the Neva was carried out independently and without the help of tugs. The solution to such a problem was not simple. Unlike other domestic river-sea class ships, MRK pr. 22800 have limited capabilities for operating on rivers and shallow waters in general. Despite this, two “Karakurt” successfully covered the given route.


Ship "Odintsovo"

The crews of the two ships mastered the new theater of navigation and studied it from a navigational and hydrographic point of view. At the same time, the sailors had to get used to new conditions. Thus, Lake Ladoga exceeds the Baltic Sea in depth - in some areas by several times. The great depth allows you to operate freely off the coast without fear of shoals. In addition, the Sovetsk commander paid special attention to the northern part of Ladoga, where there are real skerries.

After a month of experimental combat duty, setting up a base point, performing training tasks, etc., the ships left Lake Ladoga for their permanent base. Whether this practice will be continued has not yet been clarified.

Goals and objectives


As Krasnaya Zvezda writes, the recent experimental combat duty of two RTOs pursued several main goals related to issues of tactics, technology and operation. In all cases, it was possible to obtain the necessary experience for further analysis and conclusions, as well as for drawing up and adjusting plans for the future.

First of all, as part of recent events, the DKBF tested the possibility of transferring ships to remote waters. Despite all the obvious advantages, the Baltic Sea and its naval bases are open to a potential enemy and are subject to known risks. In turn, Lake Ladoga is not directly accessible to third countries. In addition, this theater is covered by air defense systems and is protected from attack from the water.


MRK "Serpukhov" pr. 21631

It is noted that the withdrawal to Ladoga has virtually no effect on the combat potential of the ships. Main weapons The Karakurt MRK and a number of other modern domestic pennants are Caliber cruise missiles. They have a range of approx. 2,5 thousand km, and moving the launch boundaries to inland waters does not have a fundamental impact on the affected area.

As part of the experimental combat duty, issues of a technical and operational nature were worked out. Thus, the behavior of ship hulls designed for the sea in fresh water was tested. The nuances of using satellite communications and other systems were clarified, taking into account the specifics of the region and theater. Finally, the potential of the selected lake base was tested from the point of view of the operation of modern RTOs.

Experience of the past


It should be recalled that our Navy has extensive experience in the development and military use of Ladoga. This process began in the late thirties, during the Soviet-Finnish War. So, in 1939-40. The Ladoga military flotilla was formed and built, which successfully operated until the end of the Great Patriotic War.

In the post-war period, the Baltic Fleet continued to use Lake Ladoga. Various objects and units of the Navy were located on its banks. In addition, the port of Lakhdenpokhya in the northwestern part of the lake served as a temporary base for ships, boats and submarines. In addition, the waters of Ladoga were used as testing grounds for various experiments and tests.


"Buyan-M" performs a salvo launch of "Caliber" missiles

Active operation of the Lakhdenpokhya base ceased at the beginning of the XNUMXs. However, the port and its main structures were preserved. It is likely that they were used by two new MRKs during their recent test combat duty. At the same time, it cannot be ruled out that the base needs serious repairs and restoration after a long period of inactivity. Based on the results of these activities, she will be able to fully solve all her problems.

Geography and fleet


Lake Ladoga has a number of obvious advantages that DKBF can use. First of all, you need to remember that Ladoga is the largest lake in Europe. It measures 219 x 125 km and has a surface area of ​​approx. 17,9 thousand sq. km. The average depth reaches 50 m. The length of the coastline is 1570 km. The lake is entirely located on Russian territory, but is connected via the Neva to the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic Sea.

Due to geographical and hydrological features, ships and submarines of different classes and types can be stationed on Ladoga, although with certain restrictions. These opportunities were actively used in the past, and now DKBF is returning to such ideas. The first experiments were carried out, demonstrating the fundamental possibility of deploying modern ships.

During a recent test combat duty on Ladoga, two small missile ships of Project 22800 were stationed for a month. The Baltic Fleet now has three such pennants. Four more Karakurts are at various stages of construction and testing. They will begin service within the next few years.


Boat "Yunarmeets Baltic" pr. 03160. Such pennants can move freely along the Gulf of Finland, Neva or Ladoga

In a recent publication by Krasnaya Zvezda, in the context of crossings across the Neva, MRK pr. 21631 Buyan-M is mentioned. Like the ships of Project 22800, they are capable of independently reaching Lake Ladoga and working there. Currently, the DKBF has three Buyans.

The Baltic Fleet has a large number of different missile boats, small anti-submarine ships, boats for various purposes, landing ships and boats, etc. All of them, if necessary, can also go to Ladoga in order to protect against enemy attacks and preserve their combat potential. It is unknown whether ships of 1st and 2nd ranks, such as the destroyer Nastoichivy, patrol ships of Project 11540 or corvettes of Project 20380, can reach Lake Ladoga.

Thus, the Baltic Fleet, if necessary, has the opportunity to withdraw most of its combat units to Ladoga. Due to this, their safety will increase, while the strike potential of the main ships as a whole will not change. They will retain the ability to control a significant part of the region and hit distant targets.

Return to Ladoga


The Russian Navy in general and the Baltic Fleet in particular take into account the peculiarities of the current military-political situation and try to predict its further development. During such processes, negative factors and events receive the necessary assessment, and then appropriate measures of one kind or another are taken. Thus, in response to the current situation and the emergence of new threats, the possibility of withdrawing part of the DKBF forces deep into the country’s territory is being explored.

To date, the first experiments of this kind have been carried out using only two ships. If the events with the participation of the Sovetsk and Odintsovo MRKs are highly appreciated, then we should soon expect similar voyages of other ships and the restoration of the corresponding infrastructure on Lake Ladoga. As a result, the effectiveness of the DKBF will remain at the same level, and the safety of service and combat work will increase.
63 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +10
    19 October 2023 04: 52
    On Ladoga, since it is covered both from the sea and from the air, a barge can be allocated for this task, and not an expensive MRK, and even with the “Pantsir”. One word - the former fleet and admirals are appropriate.
    1. +8
      19 October 2023 04: 57
      The Black Sea Fleet is pressing along the shores, the Baltic Fleet is on Ladoga... yes....times.
      1. +7
        19 October 2023 11: 34
        Aerodrome: Black Sea Fleet is pressing along the shores, Baltic Fleet is on Ladoga... yes.... times.
        At the moment, NATO controls more than 80% of the Baltic Sea coast. The Russian Federation controls less than 10%.
        The distance from Gdynia (the main base of the Polish Navy) is less than 100 km.
        The flight range of cruise missiles of the mobile American-Norwegian NSM system is up to 185 kilometers.
        There are two divisions in Poland, and the third will soon be deployed in Lithuania.
        On Ladoga, the ships will be covered by the POWERFUL 6th Air Force and Air Defense Army, which includes the S-350 complex, which is designed to combat MODERN cruise missiles.
        Some hundred kilometers does not matter for the "Caliber".
        1. 0
          19 October 2023 14: 43
          when will they begin to lay down small anti-submarine ships based on the enlarged project 22800 (?)
          By the way, according to the project there were 2 UVP for already 16 PLUR, SLCM, anti-ship missiles
          Since we have difficulties with the construction of ships of the 1st rank, we at least need to master the MRK, MPK
          3 MPCs with a total BC of 48 CR - almost like the BC of the Destroyer Arleigh Burke according to the BGM-109 Tomahawk
          1. +2
            19 October 2023 20: 53
            Quote: Romario_Argo
            when will they begin to lay down small anti-submarine ships based on the enlarged project 22800 (?)
            By the way, according to the project there were 2 UVP for already 16 PLUR, SLCM, anti-ship missiles
            Since we have difficulties with the construction of ships of the 1st rank, we at least need to master the MRK, MPK
            3 MPCs with a total BC of 48 CR - almost like the BC of the Destroyer Arleigh Burke according to the BGM-109 Tomahawk

            Aren't you tired of adding and multiplying rockets?
            US 6th Fleet again, won't let you sleep?
            In your fantasies you cannot destroy it with Moscow.
            Now three MPCs are going to do this?
            Have new fantasies awakened?
            1. +1
              21 October 2023 06: 19
              Transferring all Buyan-M MRKs to closed water bodies is the most reasonable solution for these stupid ships. If the Sea of ​​Azov remains completely ours, then it would be better to transfer them all there.
              In general, a good solution would be to revive and bring to life the Bark intercontinental missile, originally created for the Borei SSBN and capable of independently breaking through ice upon launch, and the development of diesel-electric submarines based on Varshavyanka as a carrier of such missiles. The placement of such diesel-electric submarines with Bark missiles in Lake Ladoga and Lake Baikal will completely eliminate the possibility of their destruction due to the closed nature of these bodies of water, and they will become a reliable and inexpensive deterrent element capable of surviving a sudden nuclear strike.
        2. 0
          21 October 2023 16: 10
          There are Finns nearby, why 2! Can't the boats be moved there?
    2. +5
      19 October 2023 06: 47
      Ladoga is a bad lake for navigation. Here a strong storm can blow up at any moment, especially in the southern part. And the wave there is very bad. It’s not for nothing that two canals from the Volkhov to the Neva were dug along the coast at one time - a lot of ships were lost every year..

      The decree of November 18, 1718 of Peter I says:

      what a great loss is caused throughout the years on Lake Ladoga from bad ships, and that in one summer about a thousand ships were lost...
      1. +2
        19 October 2023 06: 55
        You can also send submarines there. laughing
        But seriously, it’s probably enough to make barges of the “Siebel” type and load them with anything, from air defense to OTKR, for that matter. Finka is now in NATO.
        1. +3
          19 October 2023 10: 05
          and they were there at one time as part of one very interesting research institute of the Moscow Region.
          1. +5
            19 October 2023 11: 25
            Quote: DrVintorez
            and they were there at one time as part of one very interesting research institute of the Moscow Region.

            They were there before - during the war, as part of the KLF.
        2. Eug
          0
          5 January 2024 10: 10
          100%, you see, and fantasies about modularity (at least part of it) would become reality... what difference does it make what is launched according to external target designation or a pre-prepared PZ (for stationary targets)... just agree on the exchange protocols.
      2. +2
        19 October 2023 07: 16
        Quote: paul3390
        Ladoga is a bad lake for navigation. Here a strong storm can blow up at any moment, especially in the southern part. And the wave there is very bad

        Well, it's a sea-like lake. However, RTOs are too expensive to simply launch from the pier, and a conventional barge at the pier will quite survive the storm.
        1. +2
          19 October 2023 07: 52
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Well, it's a sea-like lake. However, RTOs are excessively expensive

          I saw with my own eyes in Lakhdenpokhya not the smallest vessel “Admiral Kuznetsov”. I was impressed, I even captured it in a photo, but I can’t find it now.
          IMHO the skerries of Landenpokhya are one of the most beautiful places in Karelia
          1. +1
            20 October 2023 00: 46
            Quote: Winnie76
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, it's a sea-like lake. However, RTOs are excessively expensive

            I saw with my own eyes in Lakhdenpokhya not the smallest vessel “Admiral Kuznetsov”. I was impressed, I even captured it in a photo, but I can’t find it now.
            IMHO the skerries of Landenpokhya are one of the most beautiful places in Karelia

            Let me disagree! The bay is certainly beautiful, but it’s called Yakimvarsky! But Kurkijoki or Naismeri, especially with the straits of the Kilpola islands, are much more colorful! Although everyone decides for himself and for himself.
        2. +2
          19 October 2023 16: 34
          more profitable than the RK-55 type OTRK Relief with 6 KR S-10 Garnet - than the RTO on Ladoga
          at the exhibition they showed launchers for the Iskander OTRK with 2 arrows under 4 KR Caliber

      3. +3
        19 October 2023 11: 39
        Quote: paul3390
        Ladoga is a bad lake for navigation...

        Apparently that’s why they sent 22800 there, and not the 21631 “river caliber carriers” available to the DKBF.
        Quote: paul3390
        It’s not for nothing that two canals from the Volkhov to the Neva were dug along the coast at one time - a lot of ships were lost every year..

        When these canals were cut by the Germans in 1941, Ladoga barges were forced to navigate the autumn lake. This led to the largest disaster on September 17-18, 1941, in which more than a thousand evacuees died on two storm-damaged barges (and this is only according to the lists, not including those loaded on board from the list).
    3. +2
      19 October 2023 14: 03
      Well, it’s easier to launch from the shore, why fence the barge. I think they were simply working out the possibility of sheltering ships if necessary.
      1. 0
        19 October 2023 14: 29
        Quote: Sanyav_72
        Well, it’s easier to launch from the shore, why fence the barge.

        And then why admirals?! )))
    4. 0
      21 October 2023 18: 03
      On Ladoga, since it is covered both from the sea and from the air, a barge can be allocated for this task, and not an expensive RTO

      Moreover, a barge of a type that is no different from a civilian cargo barge.
  3. +3
    19 October 2023 04: 56
    "Karakurt" on Lake Ladoga
    I wonder, if something happens, the Aurora will also be hidden on Ladoga?
    1. +9
      19 October 2023 05: 19
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      I wonder, if something happens, the Aurora will also be hidden on Ladoga?

      If something happens, Russia will remain behind the third ring of the Moscow Ring Road, together with the mayor of all Rus', the Supreme High Command, and the temple of the Armed Forces...
      And this is just experienced combat duty... And there is also experienced puffing out of cheeks... Experienced entry into Russia... Experienced red lines... Experienced constitution... Experienced vaccine... Experienced SVO... Experienced use of Su-57...Test use of tactical nuclear weapons...
      The main thing here is:
      In all cases it was possible to obtain the necessary experience for further analysis and conclusionsand to make and adjust plans for the future.
      1. -3
        19 October 2023 05: 41
        Don't get your hopes up, nothing will happen to Russia. But what will happen to your yellow-blue is an open question
    2. +1
      21 October 2023 16: 11
      More hysterics for the god of hysterics
      There are Finns nearby, Natty members, why 2! Can't the boats be moved there?
  4. +6
    19 October 2023 05: 44
    If “Karakurt” from Ladoga “reaches” London or at least Ramstein, then why shouldn’t it be based there?
    1. KCA
      0
      19 October 2023 05: 57
      From Ladoga to the White or Black Sea, or the Caspian Sea, an RTO can easily reach, I don’t know whether the range from the White Sea to London is enough
  5. -7
    19 October 2023 06: 10
    Why does Russia even need the Baltic Fleet at this time? Optimize! If only Serdyukov and his girlfriends would be happy. Such a field for work.
    1. +4
      19 October 2023 06: 34
      It is needed for the main naval parade. and participation in annual St. Petersburg shows, such as maritime salons.....
      1. +2
        19 October 2023 09: 21
        Well, that's it. He definitely has nothing to do in the Baltic Sea at the moment. And for launching missiles, ground-based installations will be much more convenient. Well, except that there is nowhere to put the admirals. It’s like Rusnano allocated GDP to Chubais to feed him. The result is obvious.
  6. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      19 October 2023 08: 58
      Ladoga is suitable for deployment not only of surface ships, the average depth of the lake almost coincides with the average depths in our northern seas (for example, in the Laptev Sea the prevailing depths are 50 m in the East Siberian 54 m), so even a large nuclear submarine of the Borei-A type can be located in it at This ice thickness in winter is 30-45 cm, which will allow the boat to float through breaking the ice.
  7. +1
    19 October 2023 08: 49
    Well, what else should he master if the Baltic has actually become an internal sea of ​​NATO.
  8. +2
    19 October 2023 09: 06
    Lake Ladoga has a number of obvious advantages that DKBF can use. First of all, you need to remember that Ladoga is the largest lake in Europe. It measures 219 x 125 km and has a surface area of ​​approx. 17,9 thousand sq. km.


    The area of ​​Russia is a thousand times larger than the area of ​​Lake Ladoga. The cost of an Iskander-K battery is an order of magnitude less than that of a rocket ship, and fewer personnel are required. Land missile launchers are easier to camouflage and can be hidden in defensive structures. The Baltic Fleet without the possibility of access to the World Ocean is not serious.
    The experience of the Second World War showed that large warships in the Baltic were practically useless.

    The Moremans need to transfer most of their ships to the Northern and Pacific fleets or rename themselves to the Amusement Fleet.
  9. +2
    19 October 2023 09: 11
    “It should be recalled that our Navy has extensive experience in the development and military use of Ladoga. This process began in the late thirties, during the Soviet-Finnish War...” because the Finns were sitting on the northwestern coast and their Siebels interfered with the piloting of ships to besieged Leningrad, which is why the Ladoga flotilla was
  10. +3
    19 October 2023 09: 11
    No naval battles are expected. Both in the Baltic and on Ladoga. And a drone can be reached anywhere. In general, of course, the complete incapacity of the fleet is impressive. For 20 years now they have been ringing all the bells, they write, including on the VO website, that there is a lack of modern equipment, minesweepers, unmanned aerial vehicles, hydroacoustic systems, and no naval air defense. There are no forces and means to fight underwater drones. That is, there is no balanced fleet that can carry out tasks. And no one is responsible for anything.
    The patrol ship cannot catch up with the intruder, the other ship does not have its own air defense and they had to place a land-based BUK on the helipad. Simply terrible. A year and a half of the war has already passed, but they just thought of taking the ships further into the territory.
    Where is the landing?
  11. 0
    19 October 2023 09: 51
    All that remains is to conduct another, but already final, exercise to redeploy the entire Baltic Fleet to Ladoga, rename it the Ladoga Flotilla and reduce the number of parquet admirals by 3 times
    1. +2
      19 October 2023 12: 07
      Quote: next322
      rename the Ladoga flotilla and reduce the number of parquet admirals by 3 times

      Enlarge it! For this will be the Ladoga Flotilla (with its own headquarters) as part of the DKBF (with its own headquarters). laughing
  12. +2
    19 October 2023 10: 00
    "Experience of the past": "As part of the Zapad-2021 exercises, the small missile ship (MRK) "Sovetsk" made the transition from the Baltic to the White Sea along inland waterways and fired back with cruise missiles. The MRK "Sovetsk" not only made the transition between fleets along inland waterways, but also conducted practical firing. A Caliber missile was used against a ground target at a distance of over a thousand kilometers. A supersonic anti-ship "Onyx" was used against a sea target. During the voyage, which lasted 45 days, the ship covered over 3 thousand. nautical miles, sources in the Ministry of Defense told Izvestia...In 2020, one of the small artillery ships (MAK) of Project 21630 "Buyan" made the transition from the Caspian to the Baltic Sea...At the same time, the newest small missile ship (MRK) "Green" "Dol" of the "Buyan-M" project moved from the Baltic to the White Sea. While in the Northern Fleet, the MRK made calls to Severodvinsk and Severomorsk. Its crew covered more than 3,3 thousand nautical miles and conducted training firing with "Caliber" missiles... The new patrol ship "Vasily Bykov" also passed the test in northern latitudes. He arrived in the White Sea from the Baltic, rounding the Scandinavian Peninsula, but returned to his permanent base via inland sea routes. During the two months that he spent in the Arctic, various weapons and life support systems were tested on the Vasily Bykov. Although it was previously believed that Project 22160 patrol ships were not suitable for the Arctic, the Bykov coped with all the tasks. Now it is known that, if necessary, corvettes of this project can be sent to the northern seas to counter enemy submarines." In full here: https://iz.ru/1227614/bogdan-stepovoi-roman-kretcul/severnyi-podkhod-karakurty- osvoili-dorogu-iz-baltiiskogo-v-beloe-more True, then the “Caliber-K” from the “Bykov” was never sent to Chizhu...
    At least there is a Pantsir-M at Odintsovo, but it is at Ladoga. It’s a strange decision... I understand sending “Mytishchi”, “Green Dol”, “Serpukhov” and the newest “Grad” to Ladoga or Lake Onega, from their air defense, from Besovets the VKS will cover them, ...
    Although they carried and transported containers with “Uraniums” and “Calibers” to arms exhibitions, somehow our Ministry of Defense was not able to order at least a dozen such containers. They WOULD ride on barges (Petrozavodsk can easily make them), on cars or on trains, but no, it looks like we are waiting for a miracle weapon - “Zircons”, apparently in order to install on RTOs, without air defense systems... And then we will sculpt angular bars over the RTOs, like on armored vehicles, to protect against drone attacks from the air?
    1. +1
      19 October 2023 12: 09
      Quote: Tests
      Although it was previously believed that Project 22160 patrol ships were not suitable for the Arctic, the Bykov coped with all the tasks. It is now known that, if necessary, corvettes of this project can be sent to the northern seas to counter enemy submarines.

      He obviously wrote the article in Izvestia expert™. A "Corvette" (actually an OPV or patrol ship) without a sonar and anti-aircraft weapons will hunt for enemy submarines. laughing
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. -1
    19 October 2023 10: 12
    In the Baltic and Black Seas, only ships that navigate rivers should operate. These seas are pelvises for the fleet, which is very easily blocked there and systematically destroyed
  15. -3
    19 October 2023 10: 32
    In principle, it is a good idea to keep small ships with missile weapons on duty on Ladoga. Finland and other NATO countries are nearby, and the terrain in this region is such that it is not particularly possible to deploy ground-based systems. Despite the fact that the north of Ladoga is cut up by skerries and there is somewhere to hide. One bad thing is that Ladoga freezes in winter. The solution is to build hovercraft, but is there any technology left?
  16. +2
    19 October 2023 11: 21
    This passage to Ladoga is a signal to our Finnish partners, Western liberal society really likes to send signals to Moscow and Putin, well, this is our signal, like it or not, now the Finns need to think about the possible arrival of missiles from Ladoga, and build a fleet on the basis of barges is ..... this is if in your life you have a barge in your head, may the barge workers forgive me, but shouldn’t you sail away on a barge into the dawn fog?
  17. +3
    19 October 2023 12: 05
    So, in 1939-40. The Ladoga military flotilla was formed and built, which successfully operated until the end of the Great Patriotic War.

    The author is in his repertoire.
    There were two Ladoga flotillas in the 40s. The flotilla, formed in 1939, at the end of the SFV was reorganized into the Naval Training Base on Lake Ladoga, since Ladoga became an inland lake of the USSR.
    In 1941, the flotilla had to be re-formed. The headquarters of the training detachment of ships became the headquarters of the flotilla. Its backbone was the “Ladoga battleships” - armed and armored mud hauling scows (hands remember © Civil experience). The most interesting thing is that 5 of the 6 scows of the flotilla were built in Germany a year before the war, for the Baltic Technical Fleet of the NKVD Spetsgidrostroy (a total of 11 scows were received, 5 fought on Ladoga, 6 on the Baltic).
    There was only one specially built ship on Ladoga - the Purga SKR. The flotilla also included the experimental vessel "Constructor" - the former mine cruiser (later EM) "Siberian Strelok", which served in the 1st detachment of mine ships of the Baltic Fleet at the time when the detachment was commanded by Essen.
  18. +2
    19 October 2023 12: 33
    The Russian Navy in general and the Baltic Fleet in particular take into account the peculiarities of the current military-political situation and try to predict its further development
    This is the main thing in the article. You can lose the entire Baltic Fleet at once if you miss the first strike. I really want to, judging by most of the comments. The fleet, squeezed in the gut of the bay, has no chance of surviving a massive missile attack, and this is exactly how they will attack at the very first moment of the attack. Therefore, dispersal is needed. Only this will make it possible in the future, when the resources for massive attacks run out, to withdraw the fleet and use it for its intended purpose. What's unclear here?
    1. -1
      19 October 2023 12: 55
      The fleet, squeezed in the gut of the bay, has no chance of surviving a massive missile attack, and this is exactly how they will attack at the very first moment of the attack.

      Ilya, which bay did you mean now, Kaliningrad or Finnish?
      In fact, the fleet is not intended for coastal defense. His destiny is an attack from the sea, and in view of the emerging realities - a PREVENTIVE attack from the sea. Well, and besides: landing amphibious assault forces, ensuring maritime transport and operating on enemy communications.
      Everyone loves to remember the Finnish campaign of 1939-40 as an example of our inability to conduct combat operations at the operational and tactical level. They say “head-on on the pillboxes of the Mannerheim line,” etc. But no one analyzed the strategic miscalculation - the absence of an amphibious assault bypassing Finnish fortifications and impassable Karelian forests. And after the occupation of Estonia by our troops in the fall of 1939, such an opportunity existed. So the creation of the Ladoga flotilla is a useful thing, but the forced evacuation of the fleet to Ladoga is a strategic mistake.
      1. +2
        19 October 2023 16: 23
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        But no one analyzed the strategic miscalculation - the absence of an amphibious assault bypassing Finnish fortifications and impassable Karelian forests.

        The problem is that this landing had a high chance of being drowned even at the stage of approaching the shore. For the Finnish coastal defense for our reconnaissance was absolute Terra Incognita. Thus, the Kirov missile cruiser, sent to Hanko for reconnaissance, was forced to evade a 234-mm caliber battery that suddenly opened fire from an “empty” island, according to reconnaissance data (and the Finnish artillerymen literally saved the Kirov, since when following the previous course After a few cables he was supposed to fly into a minefield). Intelligence managed to sleep through even such a monster as the two-gun battery 305/52, installed literally under our noses - on Cape Krestovy near Vyborg.
        Well, it’s better not to remember about the suppression of BO, fortunately the Red Banner Baltic Fleet gave an excellent example in the form of Bjorke’s batteries, which were intact after numerous shellings.
        1. 0
          19 October 2023 17: 48
          I’m glad, Alexey, that you know the history of this war in the naval theater of operations. And I’m glad that they supported me so warmly, maybe without meaning to.
          A strategic miscalculation - the lack of plans for a massive landing in the Helsinki area.
          An operational miscalculation - some senseless fleet operations against coastal defense.
          A tactical miscalculation is the use of a cruiser in a mine-hazardous area within the coverage area of ​​a coastal battery.
          And yes, the battery caliber is 254 mm.
          1. +1
            19 October 2023 18: 59
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            A strategic miscalculation - the lack of plans for a massive landing in the Helsinki area.

            So there is nothing to land with. And there is no one. The Baltic Fleet barely pulled out a landing force on the FZ islands - on boats from transports, as in Gallipoli. And the Marine Corps began to be formed en masse only during the war years.
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            An operational miscalculation - some senseless fleet operations against coastal defense.

            In general, there was some sense in Bjorke’s shelling. But only in one case: if the fleet pressed the cover of the coastal flank of the Mannerheim line in order to be able to deploy its ships (EM and KL) for the purpose of artillery support for a possible offensive of the army through the Inkil SD. Fortunately, the most dangerous DOS of this UR - Ink-6 and Ink-7 - were located almost next to the shore.

            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            A tactical miscalculation is the use of a cruiser in a mine-hazardous area within the coverage area of ​​a coastal battery.

            But you can’t argue here. Reconnaissance cleared the wild shoal, giving only 152-mm batteries with WWII-era guns to the area.
            1. 0
              20 October 2023 09: 41
              In general, there was some sense in Bjorke’s shelling. But only in one case: if the fleet pressed the cover of the coastal flank of the Mannerheim line in order to be able to deploy its ships (EM and KL) for the purpose of artillery support for a possible offensive of the army through the Inkil SD. Fortunately, the most dangerous DOS of this UR - Ink-6 and Ink-7 - were located almost next to the shore.

              Colleague, it seems to me that this was the goal. Remember the actions of the Coastal Escort Detachment of the Baltic Fleet and the 455th Infantry Regiment from the ice of the Gulf of Finland precisely with the aim of capturing the fortified point of Muurila, that is, in the rear of the bunkers of the Inkil UR Ink-6,7.
          2. +1
            19 October 2023 19: 01
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            And yes, the battery caliber is 254 mm.

            Nope, exactly 234 mm.
            These are 9,2" guns from a canceled Chilean order of 1912 to Bethlehem Steel.


            9.2-inch gun from the American company Bethlehem Steel. During World War I, Russia purchased 1 of these barrels. 14 of them were installed here, at Fort Russare (although only two + 6 dismantled have survived to this day).
            1. 0
              19 October 2023 20: 43
              Thank you Alexey!
              With a strategic miscalculation, there would be a task, and there would be transports for it (you can also add sprat ones to yours from Black and White), but there are not enough destroyers. And so, with overwhelming superiority in the air - an ideal landing force, well, of course, intelligence should know no less than the Germans near Moonsund in 1917.
              Thank you for the tools. When I read P.V. Petrov "At the signal of the Torch" Gangut 15 magazine did not pay attention to the caliber. I'll be more careful.
  19. 0
    19 October 2023 12: 59
    They quickly brought up Caliber to Finland as a NATO country
  20. +1
    19 October 2023 13: 10
    What to do in winter? Maybe we should simply refuse to comply with the treaty on medium- and short-range missiles in fact, and not look for ways to circumvent it when there is no treaty for a long time?
  21. 0
    19 October 2023 14: 04
    The article does not contain accurate information. RTOs, both Karakurt and Buyan, have sailed from the Baltic Sea to Ladoga before. There was, and still is, a test site where ship weapons are tested and practically used. Another option is related to Finland’s accession to NATO and NATO’s plans to deploy bases on the territory of this state.
    What kind of invention is this about ships of 1st and 2nd ranks entering the lake? They have a displacement of 4450 and 8000 tons. They won't go there. Yes, corvette 20380 with a displacement of 2200 tons. cannot walk along rivers and canals due to its nasal bulb and rigging.
  22. 0
    19 October 2023 15: 39
    Why this localism? Only in Russia, probably, has the tradition of dividing the fleet into cities where there are good living conditions been preserved, which is understandable in peacetime. Somewhere this approach seems anachronistic. If the Russian-Japanese ships still fought at a distance of direct visibility, then after 10 years they were hit almost from the horizon. In World War II, aviation pushed the battle to distances of hundreds of kilometers, but today a thousand is not the limit. The country's fleet should ideally change locations all the time, hide, become invisible and be ready to strike suddenly from afar.
    1. +4
      19 October 2023 16: 27
      Quote: geologist
      Only in Russia, probably, has the tradition of dividing the fleet into cities where there are good living conditions been preserved, which is understandable in peacetime.

      Giggles... I immediately remembered one of the claims of the US Pacific Fleet sailors when discussing the pre-war relocation of the fleet from the Continent to Pearl Harbor: "This will undermine military morale as there are too few white women on Oahu.". smile
  23. +1
    19 October 2023 20: 54
    Well, now all that remains is to launch a dozen Akula-class SSBNs into Baikal, and we will certainly “live!”...
  24. +1
    19 October 2023 21: 54
    On Ladoga it is possible to place diesel-electric submarines with MRSD on board.
  25. -2
    19 October 2023 23: 28
    Quote from Voronezh
    Don't get your hopes up, nothing will happen to Russia. ...

    Already. But keep staring at the TV. They will confirm to you that everything is fine.
  26. osp
    -1
    20 October 2023 00: 31
    Quote: knn54
    Aerodrome: Black Sea Fleet is pressing along the shores, Baltic Fleet is on Ladoga... yes.... times.
    At the moment, NATO controls more than 80% of the Baltic Sea coast. The Russian Federation controls less than 10%.
    The distance from Gdynia (the main base of the Polish Navy) is less than 100 km.
    The flight range of cruise missiles of the mobile American-Norwegian NSM system is up to 185 kilometers.
    There are two divisions in Poland, and the third will soon be deployed in Lithuania.
    On Ladoga, the ships will be covered by the POWERFUL 6th Air Force and Air Defense Army, which includes the S-350 complex, which is designed to combat MODERN cruise missiles.
    Some hundred kilometers does not matter for the "Caliber".

    What do NSM missiles have to do with it?
    Almost the entire territory of the Kaliningrad region is under fire from heavy artillery and MLRS from the territory of Poland and Lithuania.
    Then, even on Ladoga, the enemy will easily reach the ships - the Finns and Swedes are full of aircraft, missiles too.
  27. 0
    20 October 2023 08: 28
    Keeping an RTO there is hardly reasonable. Under the cover of coastal air defense systems, ground-based launchers can be placed on any trough of sufficient size. And drive it all over the lake, let them figure out the launch sites.
  28. +1
    26 October 2023 21: 38
    Unfortunately, the article does not address the issue of manufacturing engines for these ships.
    Quite a lot of steamships have been made (I suspect so). I personally participated in three.
    I don’t see any messages that my ships have gone to sea trials or will go to them in the near future. It's already been two years.
    They will rot stupidly while they wait for import substitution. Sorry for the truth of life. love
  29. 0
    1 December 2023 08: 41
    Karakurt is an MRK with good seaworthiness and its place is in Kaliningrad, but the BUYAN-M river-sea class MRK has its place in the Neva and Ladoga.
  30. 0
    5 January 2024 10: 04
    It’s better to transfer the entire fleet to the Caspian Sea, they certainly won’t be destroyed there, and missiles can be launched from there too, but Iskander launchers need to be developed in railway containers that are so dirty and dirty and with coal on top...