Only big guns. Armament and tactics of the XNUMXth century sailing fleet

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Only big guns. Armament and tactics of the XNUMXth century sailing fleet


Lessons from the Invincible Armada


So, in the XNUMXth century, two main naval battles can be considered - Lepanto and a series of battles in England. fleet with the Invincible Armada. Since we are talking about the sailing fleet, let's talk about the Armada.



From July 31 to August 8, a chain of skirmishes occurred between the English and Spanish fleets. The British, at the instigation of the naval treasurer John Hawkins, spent the entire decade before the battle nurturing the idea of ​​medium-range artillery combat, which would help them neutralize Spanish boarding tactics in battle. And what happened in the end?
Despite the shelling of the British, the Spaniards passed the canal like a knife through butter, and in the decisive battle of Gravelines, the English ships were unable to sink anyone.

This is not surprising, if you use the statistics given in the book “Armada Guns” by Michael Lewis. If we do not take into account small-caliber guns, the distribution of guns among the fleets was as follows:

1

If we consider the weight parameter of the broadside, then for the Spaniards it is 19 pounds, while for the British it is only 369 pounds, or 14 percent less than the Spanish.

So, given these statistics, nothing unusual happened - the English fleet was simply under-armed for its concept. However, understanding of this fact came only 50 years later, in the 1630s.

"I love bloody combat..."


Just in 1630, Lord High Admiral of England Algeron Percy, Earl of Northumberland, in an explanatory note to King Charles I, proposed creatively reworking Hawkins’ idea and, in accordance with this, working out the tactics of the English fleet.

Northumberland suggested relying on big guns and close combat. The tragedy of Hawkins, the count wrote, was that his ships were fired from medium and long distances with medium-caliber guns, so he simply could not inflict significant losses on the Spaniards, and a lot of ammunition was wasted.

Northumberland proposed arming the ships as strongly as possible and with as large cannons as possible, while the ships had to seek close combat, boldly approach the enemy - but not for boarding, but to bring down a hail of cannonballs on the enemy from a lethal distance.

The Lord High Admiral called this tactic in the French manner - melee (“cutting, fighting” is how knights in the Middle Ages called close combat).

2

Lord High Admiral of England Algeron Percy, Earl of Northumberland.

To implement this concept, under Charles I, lightweight large-caliber cannons - “drakes”, shorter and with rather thin walls, were introduced into the naval artillery, and the charge was reduced to two-thirds compared to the usual one. As a result, the muzzle velocity of the cannonball dropped from 1 feet per second to 300 feet per second. Cannonballs from such guns at close range did not penetrate, but broke through the sides of enemy ships, which led to a whole cloud of wood chips and hull fragments that wounded and maimed the enemy’s servants and crew.

The guns were placed on the English ships until there was 1 yard (slightly less than a meter) left between the lower gun ports and the water level. The guns were divided into large (calibers 64, 42 and 32 pounds), medium (18 and 12 pounds) and small (5 pounds and below).
When approaching, long medium-caliber guns began the battle, but in close combat large and small guns came into play. The task of large guns is to inflict as much damage as possible on the enemy; small guns demolished the enemy crew and gunners from the upper deck. Northumberland rejected the boarding tactics irrevocably, since, as he wrote to the king, the British would never be able to compare in their fighting qualities with the Spanish or Dutch marines.

As for the guns.

By the 64s, 1630-pound cannons were no longer produced; their remains were converted into stone throwers, which fired stone cannonballs weighing 24 pounds. Almost all of the fleet's 42-pounder guns (the so-called canon-royals) were mounted on the flagship Royal Sovereign. Therefore, the 32-pounder became the basis for heavy guns.

Dutch experience


As it turned out, all three fleets involved in the canal skirmishes in 1588 drew different conclusions. We have already talked about the conclusions of the British.

The Spaniards, on the contrary, decided that their galleons were quite durable and well-armed ships, which were a tough nut to crack for any enemy.

What about the Dutch?

3

Dutch ships in the roadstead.

The Dutch made their own conclusions. They decided that it made sense to load their light ships even more with light artillery and use them in threes or fives against the lonely Spanish leviathans. Three or five ships would attack the Spaniard from several sides, knock out his crew with cannons, and then all the ships would board, overwhelming him with their numbers.

This tactic was directly borrowed from galleys and was called swarm tactics. And in principle, throughout the Eighty Years’ War, this tactic worked quite well against the Spaniards.

With the beginning of the Anglo-Dutch wars, the Dutch began to act “according to the manual,” but then they began to have problems over and over again. The fact is that the English ships turned out to be much better armed than the Spaniards, and their formidable artillery simply demolished the boarding teams with fire.

The Netherlands lost the first Anglo-Dutch war outright. Around this same time, the English “naval generals” - John Monck, Robert Blake and Anthony Dean - decided to rethink the experience of recent battles and, in fact, develop the tactics proposed by Northumberland.

The first to express a simple and brilliant idea was Anthony Dean, a former artilleryman: since the ship has guns located on the sides, therefore the most ideal formation of ships in battle is a line. It is in this case that the maximum possible number of ship guns will be used.

Actually, this was the beginning of linear tactics.

Lowestoft


Ironically, Dean's idea was far from new.

The first widely known battle fought by a European fleet in line was Vasco da Gama's battle with the Egyptian-Indians at Malabar in 1502. In 1583, near the island of San Miguel, the Spanish admiral Don Alonso de Bazan staged “Trafalgar in reverse” for the Anglo-French squadron, meeting it in the battle line and completely defeating it. In 1628, in the battle of Abrolhos Island, the Dutch and the Spanish-Portuguese - both opponents acted in line.

The battles in the Strait of Hormuz in 1624–1630 between the Spaniards and Portuguese with the Anglo-Dutch - both opponents tried to hold the column. During the Thirty Years' War, Dutch Admiral Maarten Tromp shared his thoughts on the advantage of fighting in line with British Admiral Pennington. But for the time being, the fleets did not fight in line.

The British first tried new linear tactics at the Battle of Lowestoft in 1665. It was before this battle that the commander of the fleet, the Duke of York, issued instructions "On the best construction of His Majesty's fleet". It indicated “strive with all our might to form a battle line”, and it was noted that "no ship of His Majesty's fleet shall pursue any small group of ships until the bulk of the enemy's fleet has been suppressed or put to flight". A separate point was the requirement "keep 100 yards between matelots". Each ship received a clearly defined place in the line.

5

The Battle of Lowestoft begins. Scheme.

In turn, the Dutch, due to political differences, went into battle in as many as seven squadrons, the number of admiralties. Since at the initial stage the British held the line, they were able to easily repel the scattered attack of seven enemy squadrons, since the Dutch ships simply interfered with each other, often blocking the firing direction of their own ships.

Some of the Dutch ships were hired merchant ships, slow-moving armed ships, and this further aggravated the situation, and the British, when approaching, were able to devastate the decks of the Dutch with longitudinal salvos.

When the battle entered the melee phase, the position of the Dutch became completely unenviable. Due to the difference in armament, the British had a decisive advantage; the Dutch flagship Eendracht took off, killing commander-in-chief Jacob van Opdam. The loss of the flagship threw the Dutch into confusion; many of the ships turned 180 degrees and fell into the wind. The Dutch decided to withdraw from the battle, but, being disunited and not seeing orders from the commander, each detachment acted in its own way.

In total, the Dutch lost 19 ships of various ranks in this battle. It was a real rout. Perhaps the only thing that saved the Dutch was that many of the British ships were also merchant ships, hired for the campaign. Their captains had only a vague idea of ​​discipline and military maneuvers, so they managed to hold the line only at the beginning of the battle, then the entire battle broke up into battles between individual ships. In this situation, some of the Dutch ships got a chance to escape.

4

Battle of Lowestoft.

Individual ships, or even entire divisions, cut back and forth through the enemy line several times, the battle constantly broke up into several separate battles, mutual understanding between the vanguard, center and rearguard was very often simply lost, the cannon smoke that obscured the battlefield made not only orders invisible fleet commander, but also squadron commanders.

Some conclusions


It is clear that after the battle the Dutch decided to work on the mistakes. Among the reasons why such a defeat became possible were the small size and armament of the Dutch ships, and political squabbles in the States General, where deputies wanted to rule everything, including the fleet.

But still, the main problem was recognized as organization. Vice-Admiral Zealand Jan Evertsen noted that swarm and boarding tactics were outdated; at Lowestoft, several of his ships instinctively lined up to repel the British attack, and the enemy was eventually repulsed. On the other hand, during the entire battle, only one Dutch ship was successful in boarding; all the others failed and were either sunk or captured.

At the same time, the same Evertsen said - yes, the British have large-caliber guns on rank 24 ships, but they are mostly thin-walled, designed for close ranges. It is necessary to arm the Dutch ships with 18- and XNUMX-pounder cannons, but long ones with greater range and accuracy. The advantage of small-caliber guns is a faster loading time; therefore, when approaching, a Dutch ship will be able to release a greater weight of metal at the enemy than it will receive in response.

6

The flagship of the Dutch fleet De Zeven Provinciën.

And just from 1666, the workhorse of the Dutch fleet became 70-gunners with 24-pounder guns on the lower deck. The only exceptions were flagship ships, for example, the 80-gun De Zeven Provinciën carried twelve 36-pounder and twelve 24-pounder guns on her lower deck. In general, it was the Dutch 24-pounders, due to their high rate of fire and rather significant caliber, that became an unpleasant surprise for the British.

On August 15, 1665, Grand Pensioner Jan de Witt issued instructions to the fleet ordering battle in the wake line. Bearing in mind the consequences of Obdam's death at Lowestoft, they made a separate addition - so that squadron commanders would not die so quickly in the future, their middle divisions should be slightly pulled back in battle, relative to the vanguard and rearguard (of each squadron), that is, the line should have a snake-like shape (slangvormige). This provision remained law for a long time in the Netherlands, but the admirals did not pay any attention to it.

7

The Battle of Texel, 1673, was fought using linear tactics.

Now the fleet was always formed into three squadrons (vanguard, center and rearguard). In 1666, Admiral Michael de Ruyter, at the instigation of Jan de Witt, decided to create a fourth squadron - a reserve. The idea seemed quite successful: in the event of a battle with superior forces, the reserve was poured into one of three detachments, but in a battle against smaller forces, it could attack the enemy from the rear, or put it in two fires.

And from the same 1666, the practice of exercises was introduced in the English and Dutch fleets, which allowed captains and sailors to learn to hold the line and fight in the line.

It was from this time that linear tactics finally came to the fleet, and the first regular fleets appeared in the world.

References:
1. John Clerck of Eldin “Essay on Naval Tactics” – 1779.
2. Spencer C. Tucker “Naval Warfire” – “Sutton Publishing”, Phoenix, 2000.
3. James J. Tritten “Doctrine and Fleet Tactics in the Royal Navy” - Norflock, 1994.
4. Fox, Frank, “Great Ships: the Battle fleet of King Charles II” – Greenwich, 1980.
5. Fox, Frank, “A Distant Storm, the Four Days Battle of 1666,” Press of Sail Publications – Porterfield, 1996.
6. Grove, G.L., “Journaling van de Admirable Van Wassenaer-Obdam (1658/59) en De Ruyter (1659–1660)” – Amsterdam, 1907.
7. Howard, Dr. Frank, "Sailing Ships of War, 1400–1860" - Greenwich, 1979.
8. Brandt, Gerard, “Het Leven en Bedryf van den Heere Michiel De Ruiter, Wolfgang, Waasberge, Boom, van Someren en Goethals” – Amsterdam, 1687.
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  1. -15
    19 October 2023 05: 36
    ...the muzzle velocity of the cannonball dropped from 1 feet per second to 300 feet per second...
    ...The guns were divided into large (calibers 64, 42 and 32 pounds), medium (18 and 12 pounds) and small (5 pounds and below)

    The author writes for the Russian-speaking reader, why pounds и ft? And what is caliber 64, 42 and 32 lbs? How much will it be in millimeters? Thank you
    1. +18
      19 October 2023 05: 54
      Because before the rifled era, the caliber of all artillery pieces of all navies and armies was determined in artillery pounds, and they could naturally vary from country to country, Google to the rescue.
      1. +10
        19 October 2023 07: 28
        Quote: Cartalon
        Because before the rifled era, the caliber of all artillery pieces of all navies and armies was determined in artillery pounds, and they could naturally vary from country to country, Google to the rescue.

        British gunners tried to live with pounds until the mid-50s of the last century.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +23
      19 October 2023 07: 26
      The author writes for the Russian-speaking reader, why pounds and feet? And what are 64, 42 and 32 pound calibers? How much will it be in millimeters?

      How much will be in parrots or should it be measured in boas. laughing
      Caliber and pound are concepts in artillery that are quite “confusing” and deserve to be discussed in a separate article. Only cast iron kernels can be measured by weight in caribres. Problems begin with stone and hollow ones.
      During the era of smooth-bore guns, different countries had their own artillery pounds, and with the advent of rifled guns, a “trick of the ear” was added when the military department indicated the nominal, not the real, caliber. However, for good purposes, so that the soldier on the battlefield does not confuse the ammunition.
      By the way, before the pound system, our gunners used the edge as a measurement. And even with the introduction of the pound system, the unicorns, mortars and howitzers of the Russian army and navy were counted in pounds.
      In domestic artillery it looked something like this:
      3 lbs - 76 mm,
      4 lbs - 88 mm,
      6 lbs - 96 mm,
      12 lbs - 120 mm,
      18 lbs - 137 mm,
      24 lbs - 152 mm,
      60 lbs - 195 mm.
      The approximate weight of a pood is 16,13 kg.
      1/4 pood - 120 mm,
      1/2 pood - 152 mm,
      1 pood - 196 mm,
      2 pounds - 245 mm,
      3 pounds - 273 mm,
      5 poods - 333 mm.
      1. 0
        19 October 2023 08: 09
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Caliber and pound concepts, but artillery things are quite “confusing”

        Detailed response. Everyone would answer like that. Thank you
        1. +16
          19 October 2023 12: 54
          Maybe you could also transfer the Roman legions into battalion tactical groups?)
          1. -16
            19 October 2023 14: 27
            Quote from Huggie
            Maybe you could also transfer the Roman legions into battalion tactical groups?)

            I'm afraid that you simply don't have enough oil in your head for such calculations...
        2. +1
          20 October 2023 04: 03
          Quote: Luminman
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Caliber and pound concepts, but artillery things are quite “confusing”

          Detailed response. Everyone would answer like that. Thank you

          Actually, this is the weight of the core. And since the core is spherical, do the math yourself. It’s like a “smoothbore” caliber, do many people know what 12, 16, or 28 caliber means? But it turns out it’s just how many round bullets will fit into the barrel of a gun cast from a pound of lead.
      2. +16
        19 October 2023 09: 44
        Sorry, this is the wrong approach. The pound is a measure of weight. And for artillery it is logical to know how much charge the cannon throws out at a time.
        Therefore, converting to millimeters does not make sense. Then it’s better to convert to kilograms
        1. -9
          19 October 2023 11: 00
          Quote: Sergey Makhov
          The pound is a measure of weight

          This is known to me...

          Quote: Sergey Makhov
          for artillery it is logical to know how much charge the gun throws out at a time

          In order to know what mass of charge the gun throws out, you need to know diameter this gun and, probably, the length of its barrel. It is absolutely clear that, all other things being equal, a gun with a diameter of 100 mm will throw out more charge than a diameter of 50 mm, but if the length of a 50 mm gun is increased two, three or four times, then it will throw out a much larger mass than a gun with a diameter of 100 mm. mm. You also need to know what kind of cannonballs the cannon throws out - cast iron, shapeless stone, or what else. Their weight will also be different. Not?
          1. +11
            19 October 2023 11: 18
            The mass of a charge is mass. And mass (weight) is measured not in millimeters, centimeters, inches, feet, but in units of scale, that is, in pounds, kilograms, and so on.
            For some reason, you are trying to introduce an intermediate parameter, and replace it with the most direct one (a pound is precisely a unit of measurement for weight).
            1. -10
              19 October 2023 11: 59
              Quote: Sergey Makhov
              And mass (weight) is measured not in millimeters, centimeters, inches, feet, but in units of scale, that is, in pounds, kilograms, and so on.

              I also know how mass is measured... wink

              Quote: Sergey Makhov
              For some reason you are trying to enter an intermediate parameter

              I'm trying to relate pounds to barrel diameter and length. I asked below, but I’ll ask again, I quote my beloved self once again:


              What is the barrel length of this 32 pound gun? What is its diameter? And if the barrel length of what you call a 32-pound gun were tripled, it would throw out three times as much as 32 pounds?
              1. +10
                19 October 2023 14: 59
                Here, along the way, it’s not the author who doesn’t know how to explain, but you have a misunderstanding. A 32 pound gun will throw out 32 pounds. No matter what the barrel length. Because she's 32 pounds.
                Maybe less (for example, when the core is hollow or stone), but not more.
                1. +1
                  19 October 2023 19: 13
                  Quote: Sergey Makhov
                  Here, along the way, it’s not the author who doesn’t know how to explain, but you have a misunderstanding. A 32 pound gun will throw out 32 pounds. No matter what the barrel length. Because she's 32 pounds.
                  Maybe less (for example, when the core is hollow or stone), but not more.

                  Unfortunately not everyone.
                  For example, our famous Tsar Cannon will not be able to fire a cast-iron solid cannonball of its caliber with a full charge.
                  However, the British naval 42-pounders, later the 32-pounder crowns, and many mortars and howitzers were not able to do this.
                  1. +2
                    19 October 2023 21: 11
                    Naturally, 42-pound cannons and 32-pound carronades could fire a 42-pound and a 32-pound cannonball, respectively.
                  2. 0
                    22 October 2023 17: 18
                    Nevertheless, she fired them, as evidenced by the trace analysis of the barrel bore, carried out in the second half of the 00s by guys from the State Historical Museum. But they never fired “stone shot” from it.
                    Google it, sir, it’s online.
                    1. 0
                      25 October 2023 09: 28
                      The jester knows it. Others say she didn't shoot. Because it does not have a seed hole. The gun was not completed.
          2. +1
            19 October 2023 18: 02
            Let it be so: the artillerymen of that time understood everything about pounds. With cast iron and bronze. And they didn’t need the rest. We got by somehow. Even without the SI system. While the shells were round.
          3. 0
            4 January 2024 22: 35
            “In order to know how much charge a gun throws out, you need to know the diameter of this gun and, probably, the length of its barrel.”

            To do this, it is easier to know the mass of the core/projectile, which is what the early “pound” measurement system provided.
        2. +7
          19 October 2023 11: 34
          Quote: Sergey Makhov
          Sorry, this is the wrong approach. The pound is a measure of weight. And for artillery it is logical to know how much charge the cannon throws out at a time.
          Therefore, converting to millimeters does not make sense. Then it’s better to convert to kilograms

          Yeah, how much will it be “in grams” laughing
          An example in the metric system was made specifically for Kamrad (for the purpose of visualizing the caliber).
          In the period you describe, tools with stone and lead balls were often used. So, a pound of “raisins”, just kidding, a hollow cast iron kernel is a priori equal to a pound of its “counterpart” made of marble. Only the density of the materials is different, so the calibers are “bored from one field of the barrel to the opposite”
          They will be different.
          What can I say, the standards of the “artillery pound” were different in different countries and even differed internally. For example, the sea pound is from the army!!!
          There was general confusion and vacillation with the bobby guns. However, we also came to the revolution with inches and lines, and some still live with them.

          Two-pound mortar from the Kamensky plant.
          Purely for understanding the sizes.
          1. +1
            19 October 2023 11: 54
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Mortar from the Kamensky plant.
            Purely for understanding the sizes

            And how many pounds is she?
            1. +8
              19 October 2023 13: 04
              Quote: Luminman
              And how many pounds is she?

              Since there are 40 (Russian) pounds in a pood, it is obviously eighty pounds.
              But remember that the Russian pound is equal to 49 grams, and the English pound is 453. request
              1. +12
                19 October 2023 13: 37
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                But remember that the Russian pound is equal to 49 grams, and the English pound is 453

                I didn’t immediately notice the Russian typo - 409 grams
                1. +6
                  19 October 2023 15: 03
                  The Russian artillery pound is equal to 494 grams.
          2. +2
            19 October 2023 22: 43
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            So, a pound of “raisins”, just kidding, a hollow cast iron kernel is a priori equal to a pound of its “counterpart” made of marble.

            Apparently you made a typo and wanted to write “solid core”. Bombs and “shells” were made hollow.
        3. +3
          19 October 2023 22: 40
          Quote: Sergey Makhov
          And for artillery it is logical to know how much charge the cannon throws out at a time.

          Sorry, but what the gun throws out is not a charge, but a projectile. The charge is what they throw away, that is, gunpowder.
      3. +9
        19 October 2023 09: 54
        By the way, before the pound system, our gunners used the edge as a measurement.

        This system has been used by gunners throughout Europe since it was developed by the German Hartmann in the mid-XNUMXth century.
        1. +6
          19 October 2023 11: 13
          Quote from Frettaskyrandi
          By the way, before the pound system, our gunners used the edge as a measurement.

          This system has been used by gunners throughout Europe since it was developed by the German Hartmann in the mid-XNUMXth century.

          Victor, I agree that I spoke incorrectly. It was necessary to write - before the reforms of Peter I.
          However, if I’m not mistaken overseas pounds, our sides were close to each other.
          1. +7
            19 October 2023 13: 18
            overseas pounds our sides were close to each other

            It is the same. It’s just that the mechanic Hartmann put into practice the theoretical development of the mathematician Tartaglia (the weights of similar bodies made of the same material are like cubes of dimensions) by making such a ruler.



            This is a copper tetrahedral bar, on one side of which there are Nuremberg inches, on the other side the diameters of cast iron cores of various weights, on the third the diameters of lead. nuclei and bullets and on the fourth - the diameters of stones. cores for howitzers and mortars. Weights are in Nuremberg pounds. The same pound in Russia was accepted as artillery pound.
            It was precisely this scale that Peter I introduced in Russia. And before that, in Russia, calibers were measured in hryvnias (one hryvnia is approximately 409,5 grams).
      4. +6
        19 October 2023 13: 09
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        By the way, before the pound system, our gunners used the edge as a measurement.

        Sorry, not "hryvnia"? Some sources just found calibers like “kryvnia and a quarter” feel
        1. +6
          19 October 2023 13: 20
          Sorry, not "hryvnia"?

          Correct "sorry". I answered above.
    3. +1
      19 October 2023 07: 30
      Actually, this is all generally accepted. There were no meters or kilograms then. As it was written, so we read now. And some guns before NATO were in pounds. The vast majority of the same boats and yachts measure their length in feet.
      1. -10
        19 October 2023 08: 07
        Quote: mmaxx
        Then there were neither meters nor kilograms

        And now there are no feet or pounds. We have been living with the SI system for a long time. Haven't you heard of this one? wink
        1. +4
          19 October 2023 08: 47
          The author wrote everything correctly. At that time, calibers were measured in pounds, including in Russia. It’s just very difficult to convert them into millimeters as it is now. Then there was no standardization and, for example, the same three-pounders could turn out to be 60mm and 76 and 80, especially in different countries. If you have the opportunity, visit the artillery museum in St. Petersburg, all this can be seen very clearly there, calibers are indicated in both pounds and mm. Thanks to the author
        2. +12
          19 October 2023 10: 05
          Quote: Luminman
          We have been living with the SI system for a long time

          The fact is that:
          You present the matter in such a way that the author treated the Russian-speaking reader with disrespect. But the maximum that can be demanded from him in this case is a conversion to meters and kilograms. But this will be simply inconvenient to read - for example, for an English 24-pounder the weight of the projectile will be 10,88621688 kg, and for a Russian 24-pounder - 9,82829784 kg. For this reason, indicating the caliber will not make much sense, especially since even within the same country, the caliber of a 24-pound gun (like any other) can vary depending on the type of cannonball (different density - different volume - different size). In general, converting to millimeters will only confuse matters.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +2
              19 October 2023 11: 23
              But I don't understand how to relate the weight to the diameter of the barrel...

              What to do, the traditions are different. In hunting weapons, weight calibers have taken root firmly due to the use of lead for throwing projectiles. And in artillery, standards changed with the development of guns and shells, so it is useless to look for modern standards in old traditions.
              1. -3
                19 October 2023 11: 52
                Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
                In hunting weapons, weight calibers have taken root firmly due to the use of lead.

                That's it! This is all clear...
            2. +5
              19 October 2023 11: 28
              So why do you need a barrel diameter at all? What will he give you?
              A 32-pound cannon throws out a cannonball weighing 32 pounds, or about 14.5 kg. Everything is clear and understandable.
              You require some kind of intermediate parameter that will not tell you anything at all. For what?
              1. -6
                19 October 2023 11: 51
                Quote: Sergey Makhov
                A 32-pound cannon throws a cannonball weighing 32 pounds, or about 14.5 kg

                What is the barrel length of this 32 pound gun? What is its diameter? And if you what do you call it, 32 pounder gun, triple the barrel length, will it throw three times as much as 32 pounds? wink
                1. +3
                  19 October 2023 12: 00
                  And if the barrel length of what you call a 32-pound gun were tripled, it would throw out three times as much as 32 pounds?

                  Absolutely not correct. Increasing the weight of the projectile will lead to an increase in the powder charge and the thickness of the cannon walls will have to be increased, otherwise the cannon will burst.
                  At that time, gun manufacturing technology dictated the battle conditions, and not vice versa.
                  So it was not because of a good life that the British reduced the speed of the projectile in their “drakes” - it was a forced decision, while having lost range they had to fight at closer ranges.
                  1. -4
                    19 October 2023 12: 05
                    Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
                    An increase in the weight of the projectile will lead to an increase in the powder charge and the thickness of the cannon walls will have to be increased, otherwise the cannon will burst

                    1. What prevents you from increasing the wall thickness?
                    2. What prevents you from reducing the diameter of the barrel and increasing its length?
                    1. +5
                      19 October 2023 12: 08
                      1. What prevents you from increasing the wall thickness?
                      2. What prevents you from reducing the diameter of the barrel and increasing its length?

                      Available technologies. The same as now.
                      1. -6
                        19 October 2023 14: 51
                        Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
                        Available technologies. Same as now

                        What about the Tsar Cannon? Although it never fired a single shot, it was nonetheless manufactured as a full-fledged weapon. The technology of that time made it possible to do this...
                      2. +2
                        19 October 2023 15: 09
                        What about the Tsar Cannon? Although it never fired a single shot, it was nonetheless manufactured as a full-fledged weapon. The technology of that time made it possible to do this...

                        What's the question?
                2. +5
                  19 October 2023 13: 31
                  And if you triple the barrel length of what you call a 32-pounder, it will throw out three times as much as 32 pounds.

                  She will "throw away" the same 32 pounds. The diameter remained the same, the dimensions of the core were the same.
                  1. +3
                    19 October 2023 14: 50
                    She will "throw away" the same 32 pounds. The diameter remained the same, the dimensions of the core were the same.

                    This is if you use cores from the same material.
                    1. +3
                      19 October 2023 15: 10
                      At that time, nuclei from depleted uranium were not yet used)
                      1. +1
                        19 October 2023 15: 14
                        At that time, nuclei from depleted uranium were not yet used)

                        Yes, but you could have taken lead.
                      2. +1
                        19 October 2023 16: 13
                        Yes, but you could have taken lead.

                        Or use knipels

                      3. +1
                        19 October 2023 17: 56
                        Ordinary cannonballs flew everywhere. And these devices could generally be used almost point blank. And they were used not for the hull, but for the spar, rigging and sails. On top.
                      4. +1
                        19 October 2023 17: 54
                        In fact, lead is more expensive than cast iron and is also very soft. Enough for a man, but hardly for an oak board.
                      5. +2
                        19 October 2023 22: 51
                        Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
                        Yes, but you could have taken lead.

                        Right. And use buckshot or lead or iron or even crushed stone. But the same weight, say 32 lbs. The weight of a projectile for a particular gun is strictly related to the weight of the permissible powder charge. If the weight is too heavy, the barrel will break. Therefore, for example, the classic Peksan bomb guns could not fire solid cannonballs, only bombs. They are lighter.
                      6. +2
                        19 October 2023 18: 39
                        Quote: Sergey Makhov
                        At that time, nuclei from depleted uranium were not yet used)

                        I repeat, cannonballs made of stone and lead were still in use then. Iron ones were used in the first decade of the 17th century, and Agagemon, if I’m not mistaken, received a gift from “marble” during the First World War.
                        By the way, in your discussion you ignore that the length of the guns was also measured in calibers - essentially in cannonballs.
                      7. +4
                        19 October 2023 19: 07
                        Listen, let's define what we're talking about?
                        Initially there was a question - what is the barrel diameter of a 32-pound gun? Moreover, the fact that I gave the standard measurement of the caliber of that time was presented as disrespect for the Russian reader.
                        I asked - why does a person need this information? Kernel weight as information is more informative. Moreover, due to different values ​​of the pound in different countries, the diameter of the kernel was generally different.
                        And then you tell me about the length of the barrel, even with some kind of reproach, like, why are you silent?
                        I have a specific question for you - what are we discussing?
                        Caliber? Barrel length? Disrespect for the reader? Something else?
                      8. +1
                        19 October 2023 20: 35
                        Quote: Sergey Makhov
                        I have a specific question for you - what are we discussing?
                        Caliber? Barrel length?

                        This question can only be resolved in a separate article dedicated to the guns of that time. hi
                      9. +1
                        19 October 2023 21: 11
                        Dear Sergey! I especially quote the full quote from Comrade.
                        The author writes for the Russian-speaking reader, why pounds and feet? And what are 64, 42 and 32 pound calibers? How much will it be in millimeters? Thank you

                        The word cannon does not sound initially. The period of artillery development you have taken is complicated by the fact that cast iron cannonballs have not yet become the norm for all fleets. Therefore, for the British 32-pound drake it is one thing, but for the Venetian bambarda it is another. By the way, due to the fact that it was impossible to shoot 64-pound cannonballs from 64-pound drakes, they were adapted for shooting stone shot, and its weight in any case was less than 64 pounds.
                        Those who are interested in the history of the fleet or hunting accepted this information, and those who are far from this were naturally puzzled.
                        The site is visited not only by older people like me, but also by young people and even girls. Regular Authors do not hesitate to explain to the latter sometimes even “truths.”
                        I think if instead of the snobbish “sha” the respected comrade was explained the principle of calculating in pounds, that the caliber of a smoothbore gun is equal to the diameter of a cannonball of the same weight, then there would be no problems. Moreover, Luminman said in advance - thank you!
                        Regarding “Russian-language” and “millimeters” - the person expressed himself incorrectly and nothing more. Luminman
                        was not noticed in pseudo-patriotism, and, in principle, the latter’s statement was more from revolutionary France. Where does the metric system come from?
                        And lastly, about respect for the reader. Personal advice, We are not your enemies. There will be good and high-quality work, like today’s, and you will be honored and respected. To be honest, it’s worth a lot to communicate directly with the Author, and you don’t shy away from this, which is definitely a plus.
                        Regarding the reproaches. I personally don’t have a message for you today, but it’s also not good to offend forum members because of gaps in knowledge.
                        Sincerely, Kote!
                        R.s. And the article is really interesting, thank you.
                3. +4
                  19 October 2023 15: 56
                  Quote: Luminman
                  What is its diameter?

                  Perhaps the table below will help you understand this issue.
              2. +2
                19 October 2023 15: 56
                You're trying to talk to a troll, can't you see? Don't feed him and he will go away on his own.
              3. 0
                20 October 2023 20: 47
                So why do you need a barrel diameter at all? What will he give you?

                The barrel diameter (caliber) is included in the gun calculation formula. Without knowing the bore diameter, we will not be able to design.... barrel length, projectile mass... etc.
                And I will ask you to put authorship at the beginning of the article, at least as an epigraph, so that people don’t waste time..
            3. +5
              19 October 2023 13: 23
              But I don't understand how to relate the weight to the diameter of the barrel...


            4. +4
              19 October 2023 18: 05
              If in each article we explain in brief strokes for those who do not understand what letters, numbers and units of measurement are used, normal people who understand this will simply not read anything. In an article on mathematics, no one will first write about the multiplication table.
            5. +1
              19 October 2023 22: 37
              Quote: Luminman
              But I don't understand how to relate the weight to the diameter of the barrel...

              Generally speaking, very simply, the diameter of the barrel corresponds to the diameter of the round cast iron core of the specified weight.
              1. 0
                21 October 2023 22: 07
                The diameter of the barrel corresponds to the diameter of a round cast iron core of the specified weight.

                Does not match. The core diameter is smaller.
        3. +4
          19 October 2023 16: 03
          Quote: Luminman
          And now there are no feet or pounds. We have been living with the SI system for a long time.

          We do. But the island Empire and overseas cousins ​​remained in the imperial measurement system.
          They even indicated the thickness of the armor in imperial mass units. smile

          However, the islanders even brought the monetary system to decimal only in 1971.
        4. +3
          19 October 2023 17: 43
          Go and explain about SI to the Americans. They somehow live without her. The shells - the cannonballs - were round. By measuring them by weight, people understood not only their caliber, but also the weight of the ammunition. This is important both on land and at sea. Regarding the bullets, it was clear how many bullets could be cast from a piece of lead. Old measurement systems appeared for a reason. Even now, in some cases, they are more convenient than metric.
          There are concepts and traditions in historical literature. And if they have always written this way, then they will continue to write this way. No one will understand about a 24 pound caliber gun by calling it 150 millimeter. I don't remember the rest. It's not even necessary.
          Even now, yachts and boats are mostly measured in feet by length. No one is confused, everyone understands.
          1. 0
            19 October 2023 21: 28
            Go and explain about SI to the Americans. They somehow live without her.

            As far as I remember, the “metric system progressor” from France, on its way to North America, was enslaved by pirates. laughing
            Perhaps because of such a little thing, the new world lives in miles, ounces and inches!
        5. Alf
          +1
          19 October 2023 20: 00
          Quote: Luminman
          And now there are no feet or pounds.

          But the English-speaking Vika doesn’t know about this...
    4. +4
      19 October 2023 13: 33
      , 05: 36
      NEW
      -2
      ...the muzzle velocity of the cannonball dropped from 1 feet per second to 300 feet per second...
      ...The guns were divided into large (calibers 64, 42 and 32 pounds), medium (18 and 12 pounds) and small (5 pounds and below)

      The author writes for the Russian-speaking reader, why pounds and feet? And what are 64, 42 and 32 pound calibers? How much will it be in millimeters? Thank you

      Guys and girls, stop putting minuses, the person “without a second thought” expressed doubt, and the comrades, shining with knowledge, began to tear the first one!!!
      It's not right - everyone can't know everything!!!!
      With sincere respect from the entire company, Kote!!!
      1. +9
        19 October 2023 13: 51
        Nobody is tearing anyone up. Perhaps doubts were expressed in a somewhat incorrect form, such as “a Russian-language site and all sorts of Anglo-Saxon loose pounds have no place here,” which caused an appropriate reaction.
        By the way, the author also somewhat did not take into account the varying degrees of erudition of the audience. Perhaps, since he decided to promote the topic of the sailing fleet, he should have started with articles revealing the specifics of this very fleet, so that the audience could more freely navigate the material. Otherwise, even nodes with miles will need to be converted to the SI system.
        Or recommend relevant literature, where all the nuances are described in an accessible form.

        1. -5
          19 October 2023 14: 43
          Quote from Frettaskyrandi
          Perhaps, since he decided to promote the theme of the sailing fleet, he should have started

          There is no need to promote anything, the whole point is the author’s inability to explain what he wrote... wink
          1. +3
            19 October 2023 17: 48
            The author knows how to present things in a way that some people never dreamed of. In any case, you can’t really compete with him in terms of what’s written in this area. Who needs it is clear to everyone.
            The sailing fleet is an area where you need to have some kind of basic training. If it is not there and you have questions, you need to contact the education center in this area. And do not declare about the inability to convey. Same with feet and pounds.
      2. 0
        19 October 2023 18: 07
        No really. Let's instruct. And now it’s time to explain it from the basics. First, about the conversion of pounds to mm, and then where did this meter and pound even come from.
    5. 0
      23 October 2023 09: 35
      If only in artillery pounds, especially during the Armada.....the inches were also a little different. Although there the difference was much smaller.
  2. +2
    19 October 2023 05: 46
    Thank you: good material, congratulations!
  3. +11
    19 October 2023 09: 39
    The author writes for the Russian-speaking reader, why pounds and feet? And what are 64, 42 and 32 pound calibers? How much will it be in millimeters? Thank you

    The author is doing exactly the right thing, since before the advent of modern shells and rifled artillery all over the world, including in Russia, gun calibers were measured in pounds, that is, by the weight of the ammunition used for this gun. Accordingly, a gun with a caliber of, for example, 64 pounds, fired an artillery cannonball weighing 64 pounds. Accordingly, in the literature, including Russian-language literature, the generally accepted system of weight calibers is used to describe smooth-bore artillery.
    Perhaps the author should have given the conversion of weight calibers to linear ones in the form of a table, like the one that Professor Kozlovsky gives in his book “History of the Material Part of Artillery”.



    But there is a nuance here - this table is correct only for Russian artillery. For the artillery of other countries, different tables are needed, because in Russia a 24-pound gun is 152 mm, in England - 140 mm, in France - 140 mm. In England 32 pounds - 160 mm, in France - 155 mm. The reason is that each country adopted its own artillery pound and a different gap between the core and the barrel wall.
    Detailed information for each country can be found in the literature.
  4. -1
    19 October 2023 10: 43
    To implement this concept, under Charles I, lightweight large-caliber cannons - “drakes”, shorter and with rather thin walls, were introduced into the naval artillery, and the charge was reduced to two-thirds compared to the usual one. As a result, the muzzle velocity of the cannonball dropped from 1 feet per second to 300 feet per second. Cannonballs from such guns at close range did not penetrate, but broke through the sides of enemy ships, which led to a whole cloud of wood chips and hull fragments that wounded and maimed the enemy’s servants and crew.

    It's written strangely. Any penetration of a wooden side at any charge speed produces a “cloud of chips and debris,” but the greater the speed and caliber, the greater the chance of piercing the side and producing more chips.
    1. +1
      19 October 2023 11: 21
      No.
      Try shooting at a regular board with a pistol. You will get a neat hole.
      And then try throwing a stone quite hard at the same board.
      Roughly such an analogy.
      1. +2
        19 October 2023 11: 31
        Try shooting at a regular board with a pistol. You will get a neat hole.

        But try to shoot from a 12 hunting gauge and you will get a huge amount of splinters.
        Completely wrong analogy.
        It all depends on the size of the projectile, speed and type of tree.
    2. +6
      19 October 2023 13: 27
      but the greater the speed and caliber, the greater the chance of breaking through the side and causing more splinters.

      You write nonsense.
      Do an experiment. Take a sheet of glass and shoot it with a bullet from a hunting rifle from a distance of five meters. And then from the same distance, throw the same bullet with your hand or launch it from a slingshot. You will clearly see the difference in the chips. In the first case, there will be a neat hole in the glass, in the second, the glass will shatter into smithereens.
      1. 0
        19 October 2023 14: 57
        You write nonsense.

        You are writing nonsense. Wood, unlike glass, has heterogeneous density and fiber. Punch linden, pine and oak in the same way and you will see completely different results.
        In addition, throwing with a hand and firing a weapon has a difference in speed of times or orders of magnitude, and cannonballs from guns at that time flew with a speed difference of measly percentages.
        1. +1
          19 October 2023 16: 43
          Neither at home nor at school,
          Nowhere, nobody -
          Did not believe
          Stubborn Thomas
          Nothing.
          1. -3
            19 October 2023 16: 54
            Neither at home nor at school,
            Nowhere, nobody -
            Did not believe
            Stubborn Thomas
            Nothing.

            Good self-criticism. Is there really nothing to say?
            1. +1
              19 October 2023 19: 03
              Essentially everything has been said above. Only Mikhalkov remained. It looks like I wrote from you.
              1. -2
                19 October 2023 21: 15
                Essentially everything has been said above.

                Well, I realized that you have completely forgotten the physics course for high school. Learn at your leisure, maybe you will understand at least something - force, mass, acceleration, density of the material. Maybe it will be clear that modeling wooden ships with a piece of glass is a so-so job. And the speed of throwing a bullet and shooting it differs by a factor of 20, which changes the force of impact by a factor of 400.
                1. 0
                  20 October 2023 17: 34
                  Without any physics course, everything has been proven in practice. Carronades were a terrible weapon in close combat. Up close with cannonballs, and at point-blank range with buckshot. Apparently Gascoigne knew physics.
                  1. +1
                    20 October 2023 19: 13
                    Without any physics course, everything has been proven in practice. Carronades were a terrible weapon in close combat. Up close with cannonballs, and at point-blank range with buckshot. Apparently Gascoigne knew physics.

                    Well, a pistol is a terrible weapon in close combat, but everyone goes into battle with machine guns.
                    In other words, a competent captain with normal guns will simply shoot a ship with carronades from a distance without letting him get close.
                    1. -1
                      23 October 2023 18: 04
                      And some went into trench combat with shotguns. And it didn’t seem enough to anyone. And now in a country with such good crime - the USA - the police say as one that for home defense there is nothing better than a shotgun. In short, a terrible thing. And no body armor will help. Buckshot will knock you off your feet, and it will take you a long time to come to your senses, but you have no chance at all from a bullet. The armor does not penetrate, but the action beyond the barrier sends it to the next world with a guarantee.
                      Do you like this analogy?
                      Here's another story. Gribeauval's reform. All the guns were shortened and thinned - made lighter. Because it's MORE CONVENIENT. Even at the expense of reduced range. But they have become much more mobile and faster-firing. What was more important in practice? All smoothbore field artillery of the late 18th and entire 19th centuries was exactly like this. Such guns survived until the American Civil War. Did Gribeauval and Napoleon not understand artillery?
                      But the long guns remained in museums. There are many of these in the Moscow Kremlin. From the king of peas.
                      1. 0
                        24 October 2023 09: 53
                        And some went into trench combat with shotguns.

                        The key word is trench - to which you still have to run. And name at least one army armed ONLY with shotguns? The same USA in WWII armed the infantry with completely different types of weapons - there were Tommy guns and Garands and shotguns as well - because the battle is different, both at a distance and at point-blank range.
                      2. -1
                        24 October 2023 11: 22
                        The battle of sailing ships is a battle with a pistol shot. All great victories were won this way. Precisely because if the ships are the same, plus or minus, you can shoot from afar all day long to no avail. You don’t get anywhere and you don’t cause much damage. Only the biggest guns were of any use. Here you can put 32 pounds on the lower deck on a battleship. You can’t put it any higher in terms of height. And it was possible, in addition to the heavy lower guns, to install 32-pound carronades. And when the enemy approached, the khan simply advanced. First cannonballs, then buckshot.
                        And the distances of naval battles until the end of the 19th century were ridiculous. Before the advent of optical sights and rangefinders, people shot like a gun. By eye. While the guns were already very advanced. Even with the steam fleet the battles were almost point-blank. So there were different guns for different distances. But the English ships we are talking about here were small. It was not enough to simply install large long-barreled guns. So they preferred short and light ones. But large-caliber ones.
                      3. 0
                        24 October 2023 12: 02
                        The battle of sailing ships is a battle with a pistol shot.

                        A pistol shot is different, the pistol distance of a carronade is 10 m, and that of a cannon is 40 or 50 m - is there a difference?
                        Here is the data only on "Victory" from the wiki.
                        Initial draft (1758)
                        Victory's artillery armament composition changed several times during its many years of service.
                        The initial project included the installation of one hundred guns[2]:
                        Location Quantity Caliber
                        Gondek 30 guns 42-lb.
                        Middeck 28 guns 24-lb.
                        Operadeck 30 guns 12-lb.
                        Quarterdeck 10 guns 6-lb.
                        Forcastel 2 cannons 6-lb.
                        Total 100 guns
                        By the beginning of the 1778 campaign, Admiral Keppel ordered the 30 42-pounder guns on the gondeck to be replaced with lighter 32-pounder ones, which made it possible to add 10 six-pounder guns to the forecastle to account for the freed weight, and increase the total number of guns to 110
                        Location Quantity Caliber
                        Gondek 30 guns 32-lb.
                        Middeck 28 guns 24-lb.
                        Operadeck 30 guns 12-lb.
                        Quarterdeck 10 guns 6-lb.
                        Forcastel 12 guns 6-lb.
                        Total 110 guns
                        However, already in 1779 the composition of the weapons became the same.
                        Changes made from 1780 to 1782
                        In July of the same 1779, the Admiralty approved the standard provision for supplying all ships of the fleet with carronades, according to which in 1780, 6 18-pound carronades were additionally installed on the Victory poop, and 2 24-pounders were installed on the forecastle, which in 1782 were replaced by 32-pounders. pound. At the same time, 12 6-pounder guns were replaced by 10 12-pounder and two 32-pounder carronades, thereby bringing the total number of carronades to ten. The total number of guns as of 1782 is 108[3].

                        What do we see? That the types of guns is not an axiom. That battle strategies and tactics changed repeatedly, and the weapons followed or dictated them. Because the battle, I repeat, is not range shooting.
                      4. 0
                        24 October 2023 14: 03
                        10-40-50 meters. Is it worth it to find fault with the exact distance of this “pistol shot”? If the Nelsons were shot with the guns of that time. Now try to hit from 50 meters with a 12 gauge. And the guns of that time were, for the most part, not karamultuks at all.
                        About rearmament. Reading the reference books, you are simply surprised how many times the ships of that time were rearmed during their short lives. "Victory" was an old-timer. It feels like there were fewer guns than ships. And during any repairs they were transferred to other ships. And then they again put on the ship what was at hand. I don't know for sure, just a guess. Nobody explained this. Or maybe it was just that the head of the RAV warehouse gave the captain good guns for a bubble, and if he didn’t put it down, then sold him the junk. laughing
                        But if we return to the article, one thing is clear. The British, unable to equip their small ships with heavy artillery, with which they could shoot the Spaniards from afar, changed the concept. And they also began to install the same large-caliber, but lightweight guns in sufficient quantities to ensure superiority over the Spaniards in fire performance at close range. Without losing core mass. It’s somehow strange to waste time loading large and expensive guns with half charges. If you can install more faster-firing ones. They just changed the concept. Then they acquired a fleet, large ships... And when you have a 100-gun battleship, there is enough of everything.
                      5. -1
                        24 October 2023 15: 04
                        10-40-50 meters. Is it worth it to find fault with the exact distance of this “pistol shot”?

                        This is not nitpicking. This speaks about the range, so to speak, of the “power” of the weapon. That is, with a carronade you need to get 4-5 times closer than with a conventional cannon of the same caliber. Carronades are lighter, you can place more of them and get more salvo weight - this is a plus, but in order to do this you need to get closer, receiving more damage while you go.
                        Reading the reference books, you are simply surprised how many times the ships of that time were rearmed during their short lives. "Victory" was an old-timer. It feels like there were fewer guns than ships. And during any repairs they were transferred to other ships. And then they again put on the ship what was at hand. I don't know for sure, just a guess. Nobody explained this. Or maybe it was just that the head of the RAV warehouse gave the captain good guns for a bubble, and if he didn’t put it down, then sold him the junk.

                        Yeah of course. It was the flagship of the fleet. There, of course, they “bet what was at hand for the bubble” - Don’t you think it’s funny yourself?
                      6. 0
                        25 October 2023 09: 02
                        Shooting from a distance wasn't much use. And the gun took a very long time to charge. That’s why there was a point in getting closer. If you have superiority in close combat, then why not use it? Especially when up close you can fire a salvo from twice as many heavy guns.
                        According to Victory. The king-queen had many ships. Admirals too. These flagships were there..... But the flagship of the British fleet was not there at all. And the ship under repair is not a flagship at all. It’s worth it in the port and it’s good if work is going on on it.
                        Victory became a relic after Nelson's death. Because everyone rightly believed that Nelson had secured dominance on the seas. Moreover, Victory appears to have been well built. It served for many years and is still intact.
                      7. 0
                        25 October 2023 09: 10
                        About pistol range. Right now I came across a link to an old article. By coincidence - our respected author. I won’t give you a link because I’m writing from my phone and read it on a PC. Article on Warspot. "The British vs the French: whose guns are better." Coincidentally, it’s just about cannons and carronades. It was the browser that slipped the article, because we are just three people here. Read it. There the fight was 20-30 FEET away! 6-10 meters! The two frigates were beating each other up in vain. And this is a typical fight. In some battle there, they said that Ushakov shouted something very offensive to the Turkish admiral. It seems like the distance there was similar.
                      8. 0
                        25 October 2023 09: 17
                        And about the bubble. Did you serve in the army-navy? laughing There, wow, how the necessary issues are resolved. And in those days, some boss could not appear at work for six months at all.
                        And how the gentlemen drank then! There are still legends going on.
                      9. -1
                        24 October 2023 09: 56
                        Here's another story. Gribeauval's reform. All the guns were shortened and thinned - made lighter. Because it's MORE CONVENIENT. Even at the expense of reduced range. But they have become much more mobile and faster-firing. What was more important in practice? All smoothbore field artillery of the late 18th and entire 19th centuries was exactly like this. Such guns survived until the American Civil War. Did Gribeauval and Napoleon not understand artillery?

                        Well, yes - are sea battles and battles on land the same thing? For some reason, naval guns constantly increased in caliber, length and weight. We are talking about naval artillery, not field artillery.
                      10. 0
                        24 October 2023 11: 26
                        We are not talking about artillery in general, but about naval smoothbore guns. And I described the similarities here. Rate of fire and large caliber with less gun weight. This allows you to get the desired effect at a short distance.
                        And with the rifling and development of technology, the opportunity arose to drive further and further.
                        Although even now smoothbore guns are flourishing. In another niche. And other approaches.
                      11. -1
                        24 October 2023 12: 10
                        We are not talking about artillery in general, but about naval smoothbore guns. And I described the similarities here. Rate of fire and large caliber with less gun weight. This allows you to get the desired effect at a short distance.

                        I don’t argue, but as I cited data on “Victory” above, carronades were added a little (no more than 10% of the total), and did not completely replace all guns with them, because the range and power of a shot at a distance are no less important.
                        It’s like giving modern fighters extra pistols, rather than completely re-equipping them with pistols.
                        And with the rifling and development of technology, the opportunity arose to drive further and further.

                        Not only. Bombing guns made the first revolution in naval shooting.
                      12. 0
                        24 October 2023 13: 40
                        Bomb guns did not have any range. A gun is like a gun.
                      13. -1
                        24 October 2023 15: 19
                        Bomb guns did not have any range. A gun is like a gun.

                        Well, if you do not take into account a different conceptual solution, as it is now fashionable to say “on new physical principles” - then yes - a gun is like a gun.
                      14. 0
                        25 October 2023 08: 54
                        I even think, looking at the pictures of Peksan’s guns, that they were also shortened. The core is hollow. Probably made of cast iron. A strong charge will simply break it. Those same mortars were very short. Because they were shooting bombs.
                        And the pictures of large-caliber ship guns from the Crimean War are also somewhat short. Apparently, there was a problem with their excessive power. There is no point in shooting far, but this fool shoots a lot and rarely shoots.
                      15. 0
                        26 October 2023 06: 40
                        Nevertheless, the fundamental difference between a rifled and smooth-bore cannon is much greater than between a smooth-bore with just cannonballs and a smooth-bore with bombs. Taking into account the long presence of mortars - none at all. Only the projectile has changed. Moreover, it remains spherical, like an ordinary core.
                      16. -1
                        26 October 2023 10: 00
                        Nevertheless, the fundamental difference between a rifled and smooth-bore cannon is much greater than between a smooth-bore with just cannonballs and a smooth-bore with bombs.

                        Less. The rifled and smoothbore have a common principle - kinetic - the only difference is speed and accuracy. Bomb guns use a different physical principle.
              2. +4
                19 October 2023 21: 40
                Victor, is it worth fighting over this?
                It is still unknown what is more dangerous: a “slow” cannonball that produces a large number of chips or the same at high speed with a longitudinal hit. In that era, they were just beginning to remove bulkheads on battery decks before battle.
                1. +3
                  19 October 2023 21: 56
                  Victor, is it worth fighting over this?

                  Am I swearing? Moreover, the individual does not perceive information from the outside that does not fit into his framework. There's no use arguing here.
                  It is still unknown what is more dangerous: a “slow” cannonball that produces a large number of chips or the same at high speed with a longitudinal hit.

                  You see, the author of the article, as I understand it, was trying to highlight the birth of linear tactics and the associated changes in artillery design. Here it is very important to inflict maximum damage to enemy ships. Naturally, a hole from a “slow” core is more difficult to repair than a hole from a “fast” one. Well, with linear tactics, longitudinal hits are possible after the ship has “fallen out” of the line.
                  1. +4
                    20 October 2023 05: 13
                    The quasi idea of ​​fighting sailing ships made of wood is a bomb cannon, but that is still two centuries away.
                    However, the practices of Nelson and Ushakov in breaking through the enemy line were based precisely on the calculation of longitudinal fire. Although not the key one, it was one of the battle tactics of that time.
                  2. -1
                    20 October 2023 10: 53
                    Moreover, the individual does not perceive information from the outside that does not fit into his framework. There's no use arguing here.

                    It is perceived normally if it is presented correctly and does not contradict the laws of physics, for example. When you prove that glass and wood are one and the same and, using glass as an example, you can do experiments similar to experiments with wood, then it will be great.
                    And it is necessary to explain about “slow” and “fast” nuclei starting with physical laws, because It was they, as well as the capabilities of those technologies, that dictated the design of guns, cannonballs and ships.
                  3. -1
                    20 October 2023 13: 12
                    You see, the author of the article, as I understand it, was trying to highlight the birth of linear tactics and the associated changes in artillery design. Here it is very important to inflict maximum damage to enemy ships.

                    And the author made an extremely unfortunate message
                    To implement this concept, under Charles I, lightweight large-caliber cannons - “drakes”, shorter and with rather thin walls, were introduced into the naval artillery, and the charge was reduced to two-thirds compared to the usual one. As a result, the muzzle velocity of the cannonball dropped from 1 feet per second to 300 feet per second. Cannonballs from such guns at close range did not penetrate, but broke through the sides of enemy ships, which led to a whole cloud of wood chips and hull fragments that wounded and maimed the enemy’s servants and crew.

                    That is, lightweight guns were specially developed to fire “slow” cannonballs. What prevented you from firing “slow” cannonballs from ordinary “unlightened” cannons? - reduce the weight of gunpowder and shoot at any speed of the cannonball and break through or pierce the sides - as you like.
                    But in fact, they wanted, with the same total weight of the guns (Archimedes’ law cannot be abolished), to obtain a greater weight of the broadside salvo, albeit with a reduced core velocity, and for this they developed a competent battle strategy that took into account the lack of range and the greater weight of the broadside salvo.
                    Are these obvious things really incomprehensible?
                    1. +2
                      20 October 2023 15: 16
                      And how does one cancel out the other?
                      The crocodile is green and big. You say - no, it's not green, it's just big.
                      Therefore, yes - one of the advantages is to increase the total weight of the salvo with the same total weight of the guns.
                      The second plus is that a slow core at close range causes greater losses to the crew than a fast core.
                      1. +1
                        20 October 2023 18: 50
                        The second plus is that a slow core at close range causes greater losses to the crew than a fast core.


                        Here is a cross-section of a ship - this is not a board - it is a complex structure that has different side thicknesses at different levels.
                        This means that the same core must travel a different path when hitting different parts of the ship. But if the cannonball does not penetrate, but breaks through the side on the upper deck, then below, where the side is thicker, this cannonball will simply get stuck in the thickness of the tree. And vice versa - a cannonball that breaks through the side from below will fly with a whistle through two sides on the upper deck.
                        This is a physics course.
                        Therefore it is stupid to say that
                        a slow core at close range causes greater losses to the crew than a fast core.

                        On the upper deck - yes, there may be more losses, but on the side of the lower deck the core can neither pierce nor break - and there will be no losses.
                      2. +1
                        20 October 2023 19: 06
                        In addition, combat at sea is not range shooting at a shield made of boards.
                        The ships change their distance - this means that the fast core becomes “slow” as the distance increases, and the “slow” one loses its power altogether.
                        The ships rock - this means that you aim at one place, but end up in another, and instead of 10 cm thick cladding boards, the core encounters a half-meter thick oak structure.
                        Overall, there are too many factors to make such a frivolous statement.
                        a slow core at close range causes greater losses to the crew than a fast core.
                      3. -1
                        23 October 2023 17: 27
                        What does frivolity have to do with it, if this is a fact, for which there is simply a bunch of memoir evidence?
                        Starting with the same Brandt, that is, with the Anglo-Dutch ones.
                        And the physics of the process is not clear only to you along the way. Because you provided a cross-section of the ship with arrows, do you really think that this confirmed your point of view?
                        You won’t believe it, but I know more than you about the plating, and about its thickness in the area of ​​shearstrake and velhout, and about the peculiarities of the plating of ships from different countries.
                        The funny thing is that the slow core breaks the inner lining, and it is this that scatters into splinters.
                      4. 0
                        24 October 2023 10: 33
                        You won’t believe it, but I know more than you about the plating, and about its thickness in the area of ​​shearstrake and velhout, and about the peculiarities of the plating of ships from different countries.
                        The funny thing is that the slow core breaks the inner lining, and it is this that scatters into splinters.

                        Well, since you know all this, then let's calculate - a decrease in the speed of the core by 400 feet per second. leads to a decrease in kinetic energy by almost 2 times - that is, the core weakens and loses penetration ability and shot range.
                        Now the side of the ship - it is not homogeneous: somewhere there is only pine lining, somewhere oak velvet lining, which is usually 2 - 3 times thicker (and oak is 2 times harder than pine, especially stained), somewhere else oak is added frame. And as a result, the thickness of the side can increase to 1 meter for velhout.
                        As a result, taking into account the density of different types of wood, we get a difference in the strength of the side of just one ship by 10 - 20 times.
                        Will you argue with these facts?
                        And are you trying to prove to me that identical cannonballs with the same penetration ability will equally break through the side anywhere? And hitting 10 cm of pine will have the same consequences as hitting 100 cm of oak? And the kernels don't get stuck in the casing?
                        And that a fast core, having broken through a skin that is 2 times thicker (taking into account 2 times more kinetic energy), cannot produce the same number of chips as a slow core, having broken through a skin that is 2 times weaker?
                        I don’t argue with the memoirs, I believe that slow cannonballs in some cases caused more damage to the crew, but also a competent volley of buckshot or a longitudinal volley could cause even greater damage.
                        I don't believe in the prodigy of slow cores. And the entire further evolution of naval guns proves this.
                      5. 0
                        25 October 2023 12: 20
                        Finally got to my library. Book from the Anatomy of the Ship series "The 74-gun Ship Bellona" 1760

                        View of the hull without plating - empty spaces between the frames are visible - that is, only the plating resists the core.
                        The thickness of the sheathing is visible - adjacent boards may differ by 2 - 3 times in thickness

                        Periodic reinforcements of the hull are visible


                        You won’t believe it, but I know more than you about the plating, and about its thickness in the area of ​​shearstrake and velhout, and about the peculiarities of the plating of ships from different countries.

                        I hope that in your next articles, you will learn to apply your “knowledge” and the articles will become even more interesting, and the number of errors will become less.
                      6. 0
                        26 October 2023 06: 21
                        Here it is necessary to give an example of a breakdown of the flooring, for example, by a bullet and compare it with a blow with a sledgehammer. A bullet with more energy will leave a hole, and a sledgehammer with less energy will leave a hole, even if not through. It is more difficult to repair, the strength is more affected, and more water will leak.
                        A break may not be a very precise definition, but anyone who has hit a board with something large and heavy will understand.
                      7. -1
                        26 October 2023 10: 13
                        Here it is necessary to give an example of a breakdown of the flooring, for example, by a bullet and compare it with a blow with a sledgehammer. A bullet with more energy will leave a hole, and a sledgehammer with less energy will leave a hole, even if not through.

                        How difficult it is to argue with humanists.
                        Take the button and press it into the board with the tip, and then with the head, and tell me where it pierced deeper and why?
                        When will you all understand that a sledgehammer can only be compared with a sledgehammer, and a bullet with a bullet and a cannonball only with the same cannonball - they have different cross-sectional areas.
                        Or shoot with a sledgehammer and hit with the same sledgehammer. Or shoot a bullet and hit it with a crowbar - the diameter of which is equal to the diameter of the bullet. There is no other way - this is a school physics course.
                      8. 0
                        26 October 2023 15: 19
                        Well, for, like, a techie, I’d advise you to master a sledgehammer. Have you tried it? Or do you know the formulas? The theory of impact or something else. Accelerate the sledgehammer hard on a sheet of plywood - you will punch a hole. Accelerate weaker and there will be a gap. Work out.
                        Plywood is an affordable example of shiplap.
                        If you have enough strength, you can try it with a stone. Large or brick.
                        And plywood, for example, is a simulation of multi-layer sheathing.
                        And now again. Come on, techie, give me the formulas from the school physics course here! Which ones are you trumping here? I love formulas. There are some cool letters there. Let's see what they wrote about this in school textbooks. And then I skipped physics. What if I missed something?
                        Formulas!!! It can even be from an institute or university physics course. At least far-fetched.
                      9. -1
                        26 October 2023 16: 43
                        Accelerate the sledgehammer hard on a sheet of plywood - you will punch a hole. Accelerate weaker and there will be a gap.

                        Nobody argues with this, everything is true.
                        Come on, techie, hand me here the formulas from the school physics course

                        I don’t serve to the poor. Everything is in the library.
                        And then I skipped physics.

                        That's noticeable.
                      10. 0
                        26 October 2023 17: 09
                        Physics-mathematics-technician merged... And I know why. But because the mat model of the interaction of the core (or what is it? the body?) with the wooden hull of the ship is not even a first approximation. And no school physics describes this. Everyone who trumps the formulas of a high school physics course has never known it even within these limits. And I can argue about this with anyone. Because, although I didn’t really like physics, I KNEW it. Unlike those who only know how to talk. Moreover, physics at school is not even physics. Because in any university they start studying it first. And they don’t even study all kinds of gadgets in the general course.
                      11. -1
                        26 October 2023 21: 21
                        Physics-mathematics-technician merged... And I know why. But because the mat model of the interaction of the core (or what is it? the body?) with the wooden hull of the ship is not even a first approximation. And no school physics describes this. Everyone who trumps the formulas of a high school physics course has never known it even within these limits. And I can argue about this with anyone. Because, although I didn’t really like physics, I KNEW it. Unlike those who only know how to talk. Moreover, physics at school is not even physics. Because in any university they start studying it first. And they don’t even study all kinds of gadgets in the general course.

                        There’s so much crap you can write, especially about the mathematical model that made me smile.
                        Well, okay, I’m waiting for the real REAL and CORRECT formulas from the one who
                        Because, although I didn’t really like physics, I KNEW it. Unlike those who only know how to talk.
                      12. 0
                        27 October 2023 03: 22
                        I didn't promise any formulas here. And he didn’t justify anything with his knowledge of the school physics course. So, either show the formulas, or at least show the photos from these textbooks here, or shut up.
                      13. -1
                        23 October 2023 18: 06
                        Yooooo..... underwater cannonballs haven't been invented yet.
                      14. 0
                        24 October 2023 10: 36
                        Yooooo..... underwater cannonballs haven't been invented yet.

                        The picture with arrows was the first one I came across from the internet.
                        But shooting below the waterline was a consequence of pitching and heeling.
                    2. -2
                      20 October 2023 15: 16
                      And how does one cancel out the other?
                      The crocodile is green and big. You say - no, it's not green, it's just big.
                      Therefore, yes - one of the advantages is to increase the total weight of the salvo with the same total weight of the guns.
                      The second plus is that a slow core at close range causes greater losses to the crew than a fast core.
                    3. +1
                      20 October 2023 17: 41
                      Regular guns are heavy. Lightweight - light. They are shorter and the barrel walls are lighter. This is critical for ships. You can either install more, or make a larger caliber, or install more of them. Short guns are easier to load. This means their rate of fire is higher. This is the only thing that makes it happen. The downside is the firing range. This limits tactics. When the same idea was returned to with carronades, the big guns were on the lower deck, the carronades on the open upper deck. It was possible to fight both close and far.
                      1. 0
                        24 October 2023 08: 55
                        It's not so simple with carronades. At that time this was know-how, and not just a short large-caliber weapon. Not everyone was able to repeat it if they didn’t buy from Carron. We fucked them because Greig is of Scottish origin.
                      2. 0
                        25 October 2023 08: 48
                        We had them at the same time as the British fleet. Because it was Gascoigne himself who established the production of carronades in Russia. The one who invented these carronades. He worked in Russia for a very long time. Either they lured me with money, or there were some other reasons.
                        Why the French didn’t use it is a separate question. Maybe not everything was so obvious to them. Maybe there were no trophies. Or maybe some smart guy said: Don't bother!
                      3. 0
                        31 October 2023 07: 35
                        Greig brought him. So they "fucked". For money, of course. But also on “personal connections”. The rest did not, because they could not do the same. Carronade at that time was quite an extreme thing.
      2. +1
        20 October 2023 21: 04
        Do an experiment. Take a sheet of glass and shoot it with a bullet from a hunting rifle from a distance of five meters. And then from the same distance, throw the same bullet with your hand or launch it from a slingshot.

        Do an experiment. Take a sheet of glass and shoot it with a bullet from... 7.62*54R and SP6 (I don’t specifically indicate the distance), the three-ruler in the glass will tear into fragments, and the SP6 will bring down the sheet. .45 (11.43 mm) will tear, 5.45 will tear, 8.6 will collapse the leaf, 12 hunts. and buckshot will bring down the leaf.
        What's the matter?
  5. +6
    19 October 2023 13: 38
    Nice read. With the advent of Sergei, the military-historical section came to life. It would be nice if he had enough patience.
  6. +3
    19 October 2023 14: 19
    Admiral Michael de Ruyter
    This venerable husband was an example, as is known, for Captain Blood. As I remember right now, old Peter loved to talk over a pipe and a glass of Spanish - I, they say, learned maritime science from de Riteur himself.. wink
    1. Alf
      +1
      19 October 2023 20: 07
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Admiral Michael de Ruyter
      This venerable husband was an example, as is known, for Captain Blood. As I remember right now, old Peter loved to talk over a pipe and a glass of Spanish - I, they say, learned maritime science from de Riteur himself.. wink

      By the way, I still can’t figure out what is the correct way to call an admiral-Reiter or Ruyter or Rieter?
  7. +4
    19 October 2023 14: 39
    Only big guns. Armament and tactics of the XNUMXth century sailing fleet

    The author's article is, without a doubt, good. But there is one significant gap - “rupertino” - rupertinoe.
    The design of these naval guns was developed by Ruprecht of the Palatinate, Duke of Cumberland. He was not only a duke, Count Palatine of the Rhine and uncle of King George I, but also a scientist. At Windsor Castle, he organized an experimental metallurgical production.
    The design he proposed—cannons made of annealed cast iron, processed on a lathe—was, as they say today, “ahead of its time.” But the cost was such (60 pounds per ton) that only three battleships were armed with them - Royal Charles, Royal James and Royal Oak. By the way, Ruprecht received a patent for his development and received 20 pounds from each ton of casting.
  8. 0
    23 October 2023 07: 47
    The author has a very solid list of sources. Perhaps, however, amateurs will read this with interest (albeit in a “clumsy” translation):

    https://forum.korabli.su/topic/1586-%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0/?tab=comments
  9. 0
    23 October 2023 09: 18
    Unfortunately, I have not yet found Armada Guns either in the original or in the Russian translation. However, there are quite a few links to two tables from this book (for example, https://satchel17.livejournal.com/9921.html). And there the figures for artillery look “a little different.”
    A more detailed breakdown by type (Spanish/English, calibers in pounds are very approximate):
    cannons (42-60 pounds) and “half-guns” (30-32 pounds) - 63/55 (the British have only one “full gun”, the Spaniards clearly have more);
    hm, well, let’s say, “stone throwers” ​​(the carronades are still very far away, 24 lbs. stone or cast iron) - 326 / 43;
    culverins (16-25?? fn.) - 165/153 (and 25 fn. supposedly just Spanish);
    "half-culverins" (8-9 fn.) - 137 / 144;
    "sakra" (4-5 fn.) - 344 / 662;
    "minions" (3-3,5 fn.) - 189 / 715.
    Total: 1224 / 1772 (there is also a problem with arithmetic in the quoted table). The Spaniards still have about the same amount of various swivel crap with a caliber of 1 pound (like a cannon), the British hardly have less.
    Those. for cannons and culverins of large and medium calibers there is approximately a balance with a slight advantage in favor of the Spaniards, the British have much more “small things”, the Spaniards have “stone throwers-howitzers”. Why is that?
    Colomb writes that of the English ships, only 23 exceeded 300 tons of displacement, another 26 were from 200 to 300 tons. The latter were clearly drawn to the frigate of Peter the Great's times and 6-lb. best case scenario. The rest are even smaller. These ships simply could not carry cannons, culverins and even “stone throwers” ​​(these weighed about the same as “half culverins”, i.e. more than 1 ton). And from 3-4 fn. (I don’t know what pounds Lewis used, it was a joke at the time, but on the Russian scale, any 3,5 inches is 4 pounds) you definitely can’t sink a galleon or nao before you run out of cannonballs and gunpowder. There is especially no reason to come close to the dons - the “stone throwers” ​​fired not far away, but at a short distance a 24-pound cannonball is a 24-pound cannonball (and even an 8" caliber, not a 6" caliber like a cast iron one).
    The Spaniards had a different problem. There seemed to be a lot of guns, but there were clearly not enough of them for such a large number of ships at that time. Moreover, a significant part of this goods was on 4 galleasses. San Lorenzo, for example, in Colombo carried 12 cannons and half-cannons, 12 culverins and half-culverins, 10, most likely, sacre. It is unlikely that the other three were much worse armed. Everything that remained after these rowing monsters was smeared in a thin layer on the galleons and naos of the Armada. One can argue about the usefulness of “stone throwers” ​​compared to “half-culverins,” but the former definitely had one drawback. It is more difficult to make a good stone core than to cast a cast iron one. So it is unlikely that the Spaniards had enough ammunition for the “stone throwers”. However, there is an opinion that they had problems with cast iron and gunpowder. They did not have naval artillery at all in the modern sense - the ships were armed with “conventional” guns on “land” carriages, which were handed over to arsenals at the ports.
    Something like this. First of all, during the Armada, the British did not have enough ships that could be placed in the “battle line”. And even if they were (like the Spaniards), there would not be enough money to arm them properly with bronze cannons. This became possible only with the transition to cast iron guns (which again required larger ships, because cast iron guns are heavier).
    1. -2
      23 October 2023 17: 34
      ---However, there is an opinion that they had problems with cast iron and gunpowder.---

      This opinion is erroneous, and is based only on the fact that already in the 20th century, some treasure hunters found two cannons on land carriages at the sites of the destruction of Spanish ships. The fact that these simply could have been landing guns did not dawn on the searchers.
      Moreover, I do not rule out that several ships could have been armed with whatever God sent, but the ships of the combat core - the Portuguese, Castilian and Biscay Armadas - were armed as they should, and with cannons on sea carriages
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 11: 29
        Firstly, in the phrase you quoted, I meant exclusively ammunition. Some authors very vaguely hint that the Spaniards even had cast iron kernels so-so. Those. broke even when they broke through. But this is something you can’t check now.

        Secondly, I read from the carriages

        https://www.shipmodeling.ru/content/news/detail.php?ID=47255&ysclid=ln1c834cfr458688050

        Well, I don’t know why I bought it. The author of the article refers to Spanish sources.

        B-3, “properly” with 1124 guns it was possible to arm only 22 galleons and some “trifles”. I've been doing these calculations for a week. And then - if you strip the galleasses and galleys. And then - taking into account "pedrero", which is not that it cannot be used, but... not always, let's say. “Half-guns”, culverins, would hardly be enough for only 11 of the largest galleons from 700 tons. Together with “pedrero” and “sakras” (“half-sakras”?, in short, 5-7 pounds) this is already four and a half hundred guns, approximately 20 heavy guns on the lower deck. Almost the same amount was carried by Rivenge, which is still smaller than San Juan or San Martin. If the “pedrero” is 24 pounds, then together with them it will be possible to reach the weight of the salvo to approximately the best “English” 300-400 pounds.
        After this, for 11 smaller galleons, only “half-culevrins” (9-11 pounds), the same “pedreros” and “5-7 pounds” will remain. Those. are actually medium and light guns. “Formally” Santiago 530 tons is approximately equivalent to the same Rivenge and Nopparel. Which have a salvo for a good 200 pounds, and are by no means “cigarette butts”. But even for this, 11 galleons require almost 400 more guns. Which will then be armed like good frigates of the late 18th century. Adequately, but not in the battle with Rivenge (which, in fact, happened in practice).

        That's all. There are about two and a half hundred guns left, mostly small (5-7 lb. and 3-3,5 lb.) calibers for everything else. Which are only good for arming small galleons and patashas - the British have a dime a dozen of this “trifle”, but at the same time it is very “toothy”. Let us leave out of the brackets what kind of artillery the galleasses and galleys are left with.
    2. 0
      24 October 2023 11: 04
      It is more difficult to make a good stone core than to cast a cast iron one.

      It depends when and where. When cast iron is mined in just a few kilograms, and stones are lying around free of charge everywhere, it will be the other way around.
      1. 0
        30 October 2023 11: 34
        In general, casting is considered more technologically advanced than any cutting processing, incl. from the point of view of saving workpiece material. However, granite can, of course, not be saved. There are exceptions, but they exist mainly to confirm the rules.
  10. 0
    3 November 2023 08: 05
    Perhaps fans will be interested in this page. By the way, there are discussions about different pounds. I wish I could find the book.